################### From: high4voltz at hotmail.com (High4Voltz) Date: Thu Jan 1 11:20:53 2004 Subject: [CP] cartoon link A picture a friend at work sent me. http://www.angelfire.com/bug/carnivores/Carniverous_Plants_Gone_Wild.gif ################### From: kit at carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us (Kit Halsted) Date: Thu Jan 1 17:25:16 2004 Subject: [CP] P. gigantea propagation So, I've managed to get a few plantlets to appear on leaves I pulled off of my P. gigantea. I stuck the leaves on top of some live sphagnum in a sealed terrarium & the plantlets appeared in about 3 weeks. http://www.carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us/images/PGigantea01-01-04a.jpg http://www.carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us/images/PGigantea01-01-04b.jpg Now I find myself wondering how & when to divide them & replant. Anybody got any tips for me? Thanks, -Kit -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: Mybog at aol.com (Mybog@aol.com) Date: Fri Jan 2 20:50:58 2004 Subject: [CP] Bonnie Dodds/Rivers?? Bonnie, Have been trying to reconnect since you left AK. Happy to see you are now so close to all of our Western cp hotspots! Hawk ################### From: pinguiculacp at hotmail.com (Michael Lu) Date: Fri Jan 2 23:38:41 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: P.gigantea propagation >Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 20:25:01 -0500 >From: Kit Halsted >Subject: [CP] P. gigantea propagation >To: Cp@omnisterra.com >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >So, I've managed to get a few plantlets to appear on leaves I pulled >off of my P. gigantea. I stuck the leaves on top of some live >sphagnum in a sealed terrarium & the plantlets appeared in about 3 >weeks. > >http://www.carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us/images/PGigantea01-01-04a.jpg > >http://www.carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us/images/PGigantea01-01-04b.jpg > >Now I find myself wondering how & when to divide them & replant. >Anybody got any tips for me? > >Thanks, >-Kit >-- >Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us >Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a > Hi Kit, I would wait until the plantlets start developing some roots before dividing and replanting them. By that time the original leaf will probably be withered and the plantlets should be easy to separate. Michael CA,US _________________________________________________________________ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger — learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize ################### From: AppleCakeTeaRoom at aol.com (AppleCakeTeaRoom@aol.com) Date: Sat Jan 3 00:09:12 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: CPs at Lowes Hello All, Just to update you all on the Sarracenias and VFTs that I purchased from Lowes roughly a month ago for very cheap :o) The S. rubra's and S. purpurea venosa's were shocked by the sudden bright light outside (after I'm sure a few dark months of indoor life at Lowes), and the leaves burned off. It could be because of the light, or dormancy, but with the temps in the 50-70's roughly all month, I'm going to guess that the sun did it. No harm tho as they should be in dormancy anywho, and the bases are still green and firm. The VFTs had dead leaves to begin with. Today as I was poking around the bog, I noticed that all of them (even the ones that I considered had no hope of revival) were beginning to put out little leaves! So I'm quite proud of myself, even tho all I did was purchase them, stick them in the bog and leave them alone. I've returned to the same Lowes a few more times, no new CPs in yet. With the new plants, I've run completely out of space now. Thus, tomorrow I'll be installing two new bogs; one for Sarracenias, and the other for seedlings and not yet mature plants. Uh oh, I've surely been bitten by the CP bug, and it looks as if it's a chornic and progressive condition! :-o Also I'll be setting up a small terrarium for two N. ampullaria, 'green form' and 'speckled.' I was thinking about adding a butterwort or two as well. Its a small setup, but it should work well for these plants. This will be the first terrarium I've setup for CPs, so I'm quite excited :o) Any suggestions, hints or tips for this mini project would surely be appreciated. Lots of "green" activity for me tomorrow. I'm looking forward to it. Happy 2004! ################### From: sander at ig.net (Sander) Date: Sat Jan 3 06:22:33 2004 Subject: [CP] Cephalotus mycorhizal? Hi Frederick, >please take a look at following picture > >http://www.dehaan.net/cp/carniflora2003/images/IMG_0008.jpg >(I think the picture is copyrighted by Mr. Dehaan) Indeed they are :) >What you see is a large number of plants at a Dutch >commercial facility called Carniflora, now: >- plants are from TC so considered genetically identical >- plants grow centimeters from each other so have the > same environment (humidity, light,...) >- plants grow in the same soil > >yet there are no two alike, one has no leaves, the other >no pitchers and the size of them is as variable. What >strikes me is the difference in mosses that grow in the >pots. Could this be the indication of a strong mycorhizal >relationship or influence? I think there might be some reasons to explaine this: - While I was there the owner of the greenhouse told me they grew almost everything from seed and although I've seen the motherplants as well (see other photo's on that link) I'm not sure if they do this with Cephalotus as well - They might select the larger plants and sell them, leaving the smaller ones behind and thus greating a difference Don't know about the mosses... Kind regards, Sander ################### From: Writerguy67 at aol.com (Writerguy67@aol.com) Date: Sat Jan 3 08:47:38 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: P. gigantea propagation Kit, When I've propagated Pinguicula species by leaf cuttings, I usually let the plantlets remain on their parent leaf until (a) the leaf melts around the plantlets, leaving them free in the media or (b), if there appears to be any danger that the creeping rot of the dying host leaf will endanger the new plantlets, carefully separating the plantlets with tweezers when it appears that they have enough rootlets to survive the ordeal. I know that doesn't sound very precise, but I rarely have to resort to plan (b) (although I tend to propagate from smaller-leaved species that might not present such a potential for rot. I've recently propagated P. debbertiana from summer non-carnivorous leaves (with high success following plan (a) above). I'm currently trying a large form of P. agnata and an immense form of P. moranensis (thanks to the generosity of William DiLapi :-) ). These larger leaves, particularly on the still-carnivorous P. moranensis, would present more of a situation you're facing with the large-leaved P. gigantea. The plantlets on your photos look healthy, and the parent leaf appears to be dessicating as it dies along the margins. My guess would be that you can probably leave the plantlets in place. I hope that helps. ################### From: djiezus at eudoramail.com (Frederick JM Depuydt) Date: Sat Jan 3 08:49:38 2004 Subject: [CP] albino Sarracenia Hello all, well, here's a picture I took yesterday of that albino seedling I posted about last week: http://home.petflytrap.com/nuljin/albino.jpg I didn't find a TC'er on such short notice, so I made an attempt at grafting the tiny apical bud into a 1 year old sarracenia seedling. It's not that difficult and I'm gonna try it with some other sarrs just to get the hang of the procedure, in case I come across other strange stuff in the future that has zero survival chance. If it works (slim chance but what the heck) I'll keep you posted. Frederick Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com ################### From: nepenthesdave at hotmail.com (David Ahrens) Date: Sat Jan 3 10:30:32 2004 Subject: [CP] Fluorescent light at Costco Bill, I haven´t seen these lights at Costco, but they are probably there. We have quite a few Costco´s in this country, we do a lot of things that you do in the US, go to war with Iraq, watch Friends (some of us do), wear Nikons on holiday, etc. I drive everyone bananas at work saying how fantastic Costco is, I have been a member since 1995. I must admit, I haven´t seen these lights, but knowing Costco, they are bound to be quite cheap. Regards, David Ahrens, London. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Sat Jan 3 14:14:38 2004 Subject: [CP] CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user timmytsgt? Hi folks, A friend just pointed out that ebay user timmytsgt is using a couple of my photos without permission and I suspect he is using some other people's photos as well. It's polite to ask for permission before using someone else's photos and, if you get it, to provide a link to the website you got them from. timmytsgt, if you are reading this please email me. If anyone else reading this knows who this person is, please email me directly. He claims to be from "Crazy Little Idaho". Meanwhile, here is a list of all his auctions, maybe someone else will notice that he's used one of their photos without permission too. :( http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=timmytsgt&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50 I notice that he is offering small packets of seed as well. I sincerely hope these aren't ICPS seedbank seed being split up into smaller packets for more money per packet. I'm not sure who else saw this but someone else was doing this a while ago. Gotta love eBay. Thanks, Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: tdstubb at sofnet.com (Tom Stubblefield) Date: Sat Jan 3 14:51:37 2004 Subject: [CP] CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user Matt, I can give him grief on your behalf. :) I've asked him a question regarding the seed and should have his email address as soon as he replies. If you want it, I'll send it to you personally. Most of the time, owners are willing to allow their photos to be used in an auction. Tom Stubblefield in the cloudy corner of Mo. ################### From: myrmecophile at armyants.org (Gordon C. Snelling) Date: Sat Jan 3 15:08:06 2004 Subject: [CP] Permissions to use photos. I would contact the people at ebay. While I would be willing to let someone use any photos of mine provided they asked, once the photos were used without permission all bets are off and I would be going after him. NO ifs ands or buts. If you let ebay know they may well yank his adds. -- Gordon New World Army Ants http://www.armyants.org Notes From Underground http://www.notesfromunderground.org ################### From: d_muscipula at hotmail.com (D. muscipula) Date: Sat Jan 3 19:07:28 2004 Subject: [CP] CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user I'm actually amazed there are two CP growers from/in Idaho. Wow. Crazy Little Idaho indeed. I thought it was just me that was crazy. Sorry to hear about him hijacking your photos. I hope everything gets resolved without bloodshed... Happy New Year everyone! ----- Original Message ----- To: "CP List" Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 3:14 PM > Hi folks, > > A friend just pointed out that ebay user timmytsgt is using a couple of my > photos without permission and I suspect he is using some other people's > photos as well. > > It's polite to ask for permission before using someone else's photos and, if > you get it, to provide a link to the website you got them from. timmytsgt, > if you are reading this please email me. If anyone else reading this knows > who this person is, please email me directly. He claims to be from "Crazy > Little Idaho". > > Meanwhile, here is a list of all his auctions, maybe someone else will > notice that he's used one of their photos without permission too. :( ################### From: mail at utricularia.net (Christian Dietz) Date: Sun Jan 4 01:53:39 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user2 Hi Matt, I don't know, who this ebayer is. But we have several Problems on our german Ebay. Here are some auctions, that you use photos (i think) without permissions. http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25868&item=2368416807 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368416812&category=25868 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368416811&category=25868 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368416810&category=25868 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368416806&category=25868 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368730778&category=25868 This list is just a small example. You will definitely find more pictures used without permission, if you look for them. Thes auctions above are all from the same user. If someone sees any pictures from my Homepage on Ebay without permission, it would be great if you could give me a short note. best wishes, Christian ################### From: kdubash at vsnl.com (KDubash) Date: Sun Jan 4 03:31:45 2004 Subject: [CP] novice needing advice. As a complete beginner, who knows absolutely nothing about cp's, and wishes to learn how to germinate, propagate, and take care of them, could anyone suggest a book/books that I should have and could refer to when in need? I live in India, and these books will not be readily available. I will thus need to order these from a book store I know of, and he in turn would have to import these. I would need the complete title, and the authors, for me to place such as order. Many thanks, K Dubash ################### From: ksanders at clas.ufl.edu (Keith Sanders) Date: Sun Jan 4 06:04:10 2004 Subject: [CP] CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user Matt, I think that eBay is pretty sensitive about preserving copyright - if you report the problem to them, I think that they will remove them. thanks, Keith Sundew wrote: > Hi folks, > > A friend just pointed out that ebay user timmytsgt is using a couple of my > photos without permission and I suspect he is using some other people's > photos as well. > > It's polite to ask for permission before using someone else's photos and, if > you get it, to provide a link to the website you got them from. timmytsgt, > if you are reading this please email me. If anyone else reading this knows > who this person is, please email me directly. He claims to be from "Crazy > Little Idaho". > > Meanwhile, here is a list of all his auctions, maybe someone else will > notice that he's used one of their photos without permission too. :( > > http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=timmytsgt&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50 > > > I notice that he is offering small packets of seed as well. I sincerely > hope these aren't ICPS seedbank seed being split up into smaller packets for > more money per packet. I'm not sure who else saw this but someone else was > doing this a while ago. Gotta love eBay. > > Thanks, > Matt > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -=-=-= > SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 > DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA > I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, > South America or other tropical / subtropical places. > Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -=-=-= > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com ################### From: srcurrie at currieweb.com (Steven R. Currie) Date: Sun Jan 4 07:25:36 2004 Subject: [CP] ebay pictures I suggest sending the ebayer an email and ask hime to cease using the pics. In the past people have run scams with other peoples pics. One time a fellow took pics off of a World War II reenactor site and tried to sell fictitious German Army equipment. On topic: Does anybody have a good idea of germanation time of Sarracenia Purpurea Purpurea. I started 30 seeds from the seed bank 4 weeks ago. Today has been exactly 4 weeks. Steven R. Currie Freedom is not free! ################### From: DISKUS at teleline.es (Antonio Cerqueira) Date: Sun Jan 4 07:52:37 2004 Subject: [CP] Hi and CP in Spain Hello!! My name is Antonio, and I just arrive to this e-mail list and to this amazing world of CP culture. I have some experience on plant tissue culture and I want to collect some CP plants so I would like to purchase some CP. Because of that, I'm looking for CP sellers from Spain (I live in Madrid) or others parts from Europe to get seeds or plants. I check the Spanish webpage of Ebay and I didn't find nothing. Can anyone help me? Thank you in advance, best regards and sorry for my English, Antonio Madrid (Spain) ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (sundew@hotmail.com) Date: Sun Jan 4 08:43:55 2004 Subject: [CP] CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user Hi Tom, Yes, that would be appreciated, thanks. FWIW, I should point out that D.kaieteurensis, which is one of the photos of mine which he is using without permission, is often misidentified. If he doesn't have his own plants to take photos of then I would automatically assume the seed is of something other than kaiet, as it usually is. Matt Message: 8 Wrom: WCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVW timmytsgt? To: "Carnivorous Plant Discussion group" Message-ID: <000a01c3d24c$6c13f2e0$44893745@pegasus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Matt, I can give him grief on your behalf. :) I've asked him a question regarding the seed and should have his email address as soon as he replies. If you want it, I'll send it to you personally. Most of the time, owners are willing to allow their photos to be used in an auction. Tom Stubblefield in the cloudy corner of Mo. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Sun Jan 4 08:55:53 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user2 Hi Christian, A few of those photos look familiar to me, especially the one with both kaieteurensis and felix. This photo was taken by my buddy Fernando. Gordon, I take copyright infringement pretty seriously. In this case, I'd probably be fine if the guy made up for it with a link to my site but I'd have to resolve it with him privately. I'm not furious, I'm just annoyed. eBay seems to bring out the worst in some wannabe entrepreneurs looking to get rich quick. Matt Message: 3 To: Cp@omnisterra.com Message-ID: <3FF7E250.6070302@utricularia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Hi Matt, I don't know, who this ebayer is. But we have several Problems on our german Ebay. Here are some auctions, that you use photos (i think) without permissions. http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25868&item=2368416807 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368416812&category=25868 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368416811&category=25868 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368416810&category=25868 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368416806&category=25868 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2368730778&category=25868 This list is just a small example. You will definitely find more pictures used without permission, if you look for them. Thes auctions above are all from the same user. If someone sees any pictures from my Homepage on Ebay without permission, it would be great if you could give me a short note. best wishes, Christian -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Sun Jan 4 08:59:56 2004 Subject: [CP] re: CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user Hi Keith, Actually, I think eBay makes the whole process pretty annoying, like you actually have to send them something in writing, maybe even a signed affadavit saying that you own the copyright to those photos. I don't mind doing this, but they don't just accept your complaint as factual. I once complained to eBay when I knew for a fact that someone was bidding on his own auctions to jack the price (they call this shill bidding and it's illegal). Since I wasn't an eBay member at the time, they just blew me off saying that I had to be an eBay member to make any kind of complaint. Then I had a friend complain and even though we submitted all the evidence that was needed to bust this guy, they said they determined he did nothing wrong. Great, huh? Matt Message: 5 timmytsgt? To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group Message-ID: <3FF81E24.7060400@clas.ufl.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Matt, I think that eBay is pretty sensitive about preserving copyright - if you report the problem to them, I think that they will remove them. thanks, Keith -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Sun Jan 4 09:02:35 2004 Subject: [CP] re: ebay pictures Hi Steven, I might just have to find that scrap of paper where I wrote my eBay user name and password down. I was just hoping to resolve this without having to go through the trouble, and though it wouldn't be so bad to let other people here know that their photos might be in use without permission. Matt Message: 6 To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group Message-ID: <3FF830A9.1070402@currieweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I suggest sending the ebayer an email and ask hime to cease using the pics. In the past people have run scams with other peoples pics. One time a fellow took pics off of a World War II reenactor site and tried to sell fictitious German Army equipment. On topic: Does anybody have a good idea of germanation time of Sarracenia Purpurea Purpurea. I started 30 seeds from the seed bank 4 weeks ago. Today has been exactly 4 weeks. Steven R. Currie Freedom is not free! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: epbb at club-internet.fr (Eric Partrat) Date: Sun Jan 4 09:13:17 2004 Subject: [CP] Hi and CP in Spain Hola Antonio, Soy Eric Partrat y soy de Francia. Hablo un poco espanol : Quisas no sabes, pero hay uno forum de plantas carnivoras en espanol con personas que puedan ayudarte. Las numerosas personas de esto forum son de todos el mundo : brasil, Mexico, Espana...y todas hablan espanol y escambian semillas y plantas carnivoras. Si me recuerdo bien, hay tambien muchos espanoles. El linko directo es : http://groups.msn.com/plantascarnivoras/messageboard.msnw O si no puedes ir directamente, hay los linkos de todos los forum de plantas carnivoras en mi pagina : http://perso.club-internet.fr/epbb/pages/pages_principales/forum.htm Feliz ano nuevo Eric Partrat epbb@club-internet.fr A world of Pinguicula http://perso.club-internet.fr/epbb/ ################### From: Marcus.Rossberg at phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf.de (Marcus Rossberg) Date: Sun Jan 4 11:04:11 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Carnivorous Palm Ivan Snyder wrote: > I would draw the line between carnivory by accident and that of > carnivory by design. I'm not sure, Ivan. Carnivory, like any other feature of a species, surely came about by evolution, no? But evolution works by random mutation and selection, i.e., by "accident", not by "design". Best wishes, Marcus ################### From: kit at carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us (Kit Halsted) Date: Sun Jan 4 11:48:19 2004 Subject: [CP] novice needing advice. Hello: I'm sure others can suggest other books, but the basic, all-around, must-have first book is The Savage Garden by Peter D'Amato. It may help to know the publisher &/or the ISBN number for ordering: Publisher: Ten Speed Press; (May 1998) ISBN: 0898159156 There are also lots of resources on the web. One that I've found particularly helpful is the ICPS germination guide: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/seedgermguide.htm Hope this helps, -Kit At 5:01 PM +0530 1/4/04, KDubash wrote: >As a complete beginner, who knows absolutely nothing about cp's, and wishes >to learn how to germinate, propagate, and take care of them, could anyone >suggest a book/books that I should have and could refer to when in need? > >I live in India, and these books will not be readily available. I will thus >need to order these from a book store I know of, and he in turn would have >to import these. I would need the complete title, and the authors, for me >to place such as order. > >Many thanks, > >K Dubash -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: kit at carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us (Kit Halsted) Date: Sun Jan 4 11:56:09 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: P.gigantea propagation Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who replied to my questions about the P. gigantea. I will fight my impatience & wait for the parent leaf to wither away before transplanting. Thanks, -Kit -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: hkobayashi4 at hotmail.com (Hideka Kobayashi) Date: Sun Jan 4 13:34:27 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: Cephalotus mycorhizal? All of them are merely assumptions. 1. Plants from TC are not necessarily identical per se. Also, how uniform were they when they were acclimatized? 2. This is a common misperception about the greenhouse environment. That's why researchers randomize his plots, benches, etc. 3. How uniform? Of course, it was as uniform as it could have been, but again, this is an assumption. In short, many things can be influencing the growth of plants. I don't know how you came up with mycorrhiza for your explanation, but there are other things that may be the causes. There is always a variation in a given population. Hideka _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up Internet access — limited time only! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ################### From: fe_riva at uol.com.br (Fernando Rivadavia) Date: Sun Jan 4 14:11:48 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user2 Hi all, > A few of those photos look familiar to me, especially the one with both > kaieteurensis and felix. This photo was taken by my buddy Fernando. You're right Matt, that pic is mine, and so are those fingers! What a creep! And to think they pay millions to have my hands in all those soap commercials and this guys thinks he can get away without paying me a penny! Hehehe! And I agree with you that if he doesn't have his own pics of the plants, then he probably doesn't have the right thing... I say burn him alive. :) Take Care, Fernando P.S. Buddy? Wasn't it "superhero"?? :):) ################### From: high4voltz at hotmail.com (High4Voltz) Date: Sun Jan 4 14:25:11 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user2 I say feed him to his own plants. LOL Matt from MN ################### From: chelsie at tampabay.rr.com (Chelsie Vandaveer) Date: Sun Jan 4 15:09:56 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: ebay user and theft of photos Hi, Matt and all, I have been fighting eBay since September over the use of one of my photographs (same thief) and you are going to find that eBay takes copyright infringement very seriously...but just their copyrighted material...they obviously have no problem with their sellers infringing on other people's copyrights. I have emailed their fraud division and sent certified letters with full-color printouts of the pages to their headquarters. They do not even acknowledge the letters or emails. (Makes you wonder what they do for people who've been cheated out of money.) Get a lawyer, especially one versed in internet law and international copyrights. I put copyrights on all the photos I publish and the seller cropped my photo to get rid of the copyright. I now have a very hungry law firm that wants an international name and they are looking at a percentage. The firm has recommended that 5 letters be written and sent certified with return receipts; they will then begin legal proceedings. Actually, I think that those of us who've had our photographs 'borrowed' get our lawyers together and start a major class-action against both eBay and the seller. After all, who's to say that your photo wasn't worth a hundred a day + all legal fees for the period it's been posted. I have reached the point with eBay that simply removing my photo will not be considered enough...I expect to be well-compensated. This is the URL of the seller: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=8439&item=23485799 75 My URL: http://www.killerplants.com/plant-of-the-week/20011029.asp I will be in and out of town over the next two months, but I take my laptop, so you can contact me by email. Get a good lawyer--we will be much more effective if a bunch of us tackle the multi-billion dollar conglomerate, than if we go it alone. So I do not accidently trash your email, put "copyright infringement" in the Subject line. Sincerely, Chelsie ################### From: chelsie at tampabay.rr.com (Chelsie Vandaveer) Date: Sun Jan 4 15:45:49 2004 Subject: [CP] A little background information Hi, Matt and all, Just to give everyone a bit of background. Pierre Omidyar, a Tufts graduate, founded eBay and holds 20.3 percent of the stock. As of Nov. 20, 2003, Omidyar was worth approximately 6.5 billion dollars all from his eBay enterprises. Jeffrey Skoll is the second largest stockholder with 11 percent. Omidyar donates a lot of money to charities...hmmmm! It seems there are a number of problems with eBay-held companies like Pay-Pal. http://www.yoink.org/cgi-bin/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=3545 eBay has already lost a patent-infringement suit. http://news.com.com/2100-1017_3-1010397.html You can contact eBay by snail mail (certified, return receipt) at: Pierre Omidyar eBay Inc. 2145 Hamilton Avenue San Jose, California 95125 Make copies of your signed letters, send one copy to your lawyer so there's an official record. Include printouts of the 'offending' eBay page and your photos. Chelsie ################### From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk) Date: Sun Jan 4 19:18:25 2004 Subject: [CP] novice needing advice. KDubash wrote: > As a complete beginner, who knows absolutely nothing about cp's, and wishes > to learn how to germinate, propagate, and take care of them, could anyone > suggest a book/books that I should have and could refer to when in need? > > I live in India, and these books will not be readily available. I will thus > need to order these from a book store I know of, and he in turn would have > to import these. I would need the complete title, and the authors, for me > to place such as order. Hi K, The CP FAQ is pretty helpful on its own: http://sarracenia.com/faq.html If you find it insufficient to get you started, the FAQ suggests some other reference books: http://sarracenia.com/faq/faq1520.html The only book I'm personally familiar with is Scnhell's _Carnivorous Plants of the United States and Canada_ which is a great reference work for my part of the world. I've never made use of the cultivation section so I can't speak for its quality. Good luck Philip ################### From: goffinses at yahoo.com (Laurel Williams) Date: Sun Jan 4 20:20:36 2004 Subject: [CP] CP vendors in FL Hello all, I am in North Port, FL (between Sarasota and Ft. Myers) visiting my in-laws in their new home. I was curious as to whether there were any good CP vendors whose greenhouses I could visit in the area. I know that the Stove-House is in Sarasota, but have been unable to find an address and/or whether they accept visitors (I sent an email to them but haven't received a reply). Anyone know about this place in particular, or others in the area that are worth visiting? I am aware of Lee's in La Belle--that's a bit of a drive though. I didn't think to try this method of inquiry until now and only have tomorrow before I must leave, but I thought I'd give it a shot--and I'll be back if I can't make it anywhere this time. Thanks for any suggestions. Cheers, Laurel Williams afield in North Port, FL __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 ################### From: ACarlson at hrsd.com (Carlson, Aaron) Date: Mon Jan 5 05:41:27 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay user... This person also had Sarracenia oreophila seeds up for auction a few days ago, but the auction has since been taken down. Whether it was by him or Ebay, I don't know. My guess is that this person is rather young and doesn't know any better and is just trying to make a few bucks to buy some more CP's....I hope. ################### From: kdubash at vsnl.com (KDubash) Date: Mon Jan 5 05:53:37 2004 Subject: [CP] media for cp seeds Hello, I have some limited experience doing in-vitro propagation of orchid seeds. Can cp seeds also be handled in a similar manner? If yes, can anyone suggest the media which could be used, and what would be the seed sterilisation protocol? Many thnaks, K Dubash ################### From: cwasson at cisco.com (Craig Wasson (cwasson)) Date: Mon Jan 5 10:00:37 2004 Subject: [CP] Watering tip for indoor pots in saucers Hi; Since I have nothing better to do while my outdoor bog sleeps and my seeds are stratifying - I thought I'd pass along a tip I recently discovered. I found it somewhat of a pain to water my many small pots sitting in small trays - especially since some shelves are crowded and access from above is not easy. I took a smaller plastic watering can and stretched a 15" piece of surgical tubing (from Home Depot) over the spout. This allows me to easily control water flow by pinching the tubing shut as I move from pot to pot - and it's much easier to reach behind and around other plants. It has cut my watering time to less than half what it was before, eliminates nearly all shuffling of pots to water them, and has reduced the spillage and overflowing that was previously wasting water and generally making a mess. Be sure to raise the tubing above the can to drain it when letting go or it'll siphon water out. Perhaps this is a well-known tip - but I had not seen this in any of the web sites or books. Happy watering! Craig ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Mon Jan 5 10:50:17 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay Hi Fern, Yeah, I'd recognize those fingers anywhere.... you know, after all those soap commercials and all.... As for the downgrade from superhero to mere buddy, that's what happens when you forget about Drosera in favor of other CP, traitor!!! ;) Only kidding. You still qualify as a CP superhero in my book... By the way... ehem... I haven't gotten replies to my last few emails to you - did you get them ok? Later, Matt Message: 1 user2 To: "Carnivorous Plant Discussion group" Message-ID: <004b01c3d311$072250a0$1d7674a7@abmexico> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all, > A few of those photos look familiar to me, especially the one with both > kaieteurensis and felix. This photo was taken by my buddy Fernando. You're right Matt, that pic is mine, and so are those fingers! What a creep! And to think they pay millions to have my hands in all those soap commercials and this guys thinks he can get away without paying me a penny! Hehehe! And I agree with you that if he doesn't have his own pics of the plants, then he probably doesn't have the right thing... I say burn him alive. :) Take Care, Fernando P.S. Buddy? Wasn't it "superhero"?? :):) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Mon Jan 5 10:51:08 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay Hi Matt, I'd say the same but I'm not sure he even has his own plants! :( Matt Message: 2 user2 To: "Carnivorous Plant Discussion group" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I say feed him to his own plants. LOL Matt from MN -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Mon Jan 5 10:53:09 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: ebay user and theft of photos Hi Chelsie, Sorry to hear about your similar problem. I'll try to resolve this situation with the person who used my photos without permission. If it yields immediate results which I am happy with, I'll probably let it slide as I don't see much damage done in this case. If I don't get immediate cooperation, we can discuss this further. Thanks, Matt Message: 3 To: Message-ID: <002001c3d317$dc216330$7d01a8c0@Hew> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Matt and all, I have been fighting eBay since September over the use of one of my photographs (same thief) and you are going to find that eBay takes copyright infringement very seriously...but just their copyrighted material...they obviously have no problem with their sellers infringing on other people's copyrights. I have emailed their fraud division and sent certified letters with full-color printouts of the pages to their headquarters. They do not even acknowledge the letters or emails. (Makes you wonder what they do for people who've been cheated out of money.) Get a lawyer, especially one versed in internet law and international copyrights. I put copyrights on all the photos I publish and the seller cropped my photo to get rid of the copyright. I now have a very hungry law firm that wants an international name and they are looking at a percentage. The firm has recommended that 5 letters be written and sent certified with return receipts; they will then begin legal proceedings. Actually, I think that those of us who've had our photographs 'borrowed' get our lawyers together and start a major class-action against both eBay and the seller. After all, who's to say that your photo wasn't worth a hundred a day + all legal fees for the period it's been posted. I have reached the point with eBay that simply removing my photo will not be considered enough...I expect to be well-compensated. This is the URL of the seller: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=8439&item=23485799 75 My URL: http://www.killerplants.com/plant-of-the-week/20011029.asp I will be in and out of town over the next two months, but I take my laptop, so you can contact me by email. Get a good lawyer--we will be much more effective if a bunch of us tackle the multi-billion dollar conglomerate, than if we go it alone. So I do not accidently trash your email, put "copyright infringement" in the Subject line. Sincerely, Chelsie -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (sundew@hotmail.com) Date: Mon Jan 5 11:18:01 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: CP Photos used without permission: Who is eBay Hi Aaron, There seem to be a lot of people who get caught up in the selling frenzy on eBay and plenty of them do unethical things for money. I am sure that some of them are young and might not know any better, but there are also a lot of older people who do know better or should know better. Like I said above, I'll see how this person handles this situation before I decide what I'm going to do. I remember seeing packets of 10 VFT seed sell for $5.00 and up (sometimes $18?!?!) quite a while ago, thinking how the people who pay those prices could join the ICPS and buy a lot more seed for only a little more, contributing to a good cause and receiving CPN at the same time. Gotta love eBay... Thanks, Matt Message: 7 Wrom: YUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKST user... To: "'Cp@omnisterra.com'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This person also had Sarracenia oreophila seeds up for auction a few days ago, but the auction has since been taken down. Whether it was by him or Ebay, I don't know. My guess is that this person is rather young and doesn't know any better and is just trying to make a few bucks to buy some more CP's....I hope. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: walker at omnisterra.com (Rick Walker) Date: Mon Jan 5 11:51:20 2004 Subject: [CP] Apology from timmytsgt (fwd) Attached is a forward of a contrite apology from Timothy Anders about using photos without permission. I would go easy on him. My policy about my own photos is that anyone can use them for any purpose whatsoever. Once I post them on the web, I am thrilled if they are used for term reports, study, occasional newspaper illustrations etc. I consider it a polite courtesy if my pictures are credited to me, but realize that the web is, by nature, a dynamic shared space. My interest is promoting conservation and understanding of CP, not becoming famous for my photography. If I felt that a particular picture was a marketable commodity, I would only post low resolution thumbnails and require some commercial agreement before releasing high resolution copies. If I were to be very concerned about credit, I would consider putting my name/web-site in big letters across the image in a way that it could not be removed. My opinion however is that such an egotistic statement disfigures the pictures. Best regards, -- Rick Walker ------- Forwarded Message To: I am timmytsgt. These seeds were taken from my own plants. I do appologize to all for using photos. I did not even think about it, I just did a search for photos as I did not have any really good photos of my own plants that I not longer have now that I live in this cold climate and do not have a proper greenhouse yet. I am not a dealer. I am stationed here with the Airforce. I did not think about asking for permission, I did not mean to be rude or offend. I will remove all photos, but would be grateful if I could continue using them. I want to get rid of my seed before it is no longer viable and am trying to get together the cash to buy some of the materials to build myself a new greenhouse so that I can again enjoy my plants. Again, I did not mean any harm. Please send this e-mail to all and if anyone wants to send me an e-mail, I will gladly reply. Tim. PS: Also, I would be happy to create a link and or give credit for the pics. I don't know how to create a link though. Tim. ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Mon Jan 5 12:16:42 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Unauthorized use of photos Hi all, Hmmmm, it seems I am included in this since one of those photo's in question is mine! Although I do not mind the community's use of my photo's in general, I find that the attitude of Ebay's (and the seller's) indifference to their theft in this instance perturbing in the extreme. Let me know if I can assist with any legal forays! Yours, William Dawnstar __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 ################### From: jim_miller at mindspring.com (Jim Miller) Date: Mon Jan 5 12:24:54 2004 Subject: [CP] Photo theft Greetings to all and welcome to 2004! I have been reading your posts about people lifting photos for their own use. Here's my experience: The same thing happens continually in the world of sea shells. I have posted photos to the Jacksonville Shell Club Web site (as have many others) at www.jaxshells.org. Sadly, there is a perception that publication on the Web (a free medium) constitutes free use (or as the law calls it, "fair use"). The truth is that almost nobody who posts to the Internet (or has their photos published in various magazines) actually has followed all the proper steps to copyright their material. The old "down home" theory of mailing photos or art to yourself holds little to no weight in court. Truth is, this will probably never change unless and until the government takes over control of the Internet. Is that what we want? Considering all the people it would take to police every site, a "subscription" to the Net will likely cost about $50 a month or more. Companies like eBay will not spend the time and energy, let alone the bucks, to chase down someone who may or may not be adhering to the rather loose "fair use" concept of Web site postings. Let's also look at the music world. Many rap and hip-hop songs make use of drum beats (or even entire instrumental sections) from other albums, yet to the best of my knowledge, not a single person has been forced to pay for that use (except for one "artist" who thought it would be cute to include the audio from the "THX" opening from certain movies and DVDs -- but there he was messing with Lucas Arts). I spent over a decade creating digital samples of acoustic instruments, which I sold and licensed. Every once in a while, someone would contact me and say, "I have some great sounds to trade!" Almost 100% of the time, those sounds would be my own, yet the person was never a customer. His excuse? "Someone gave them to me." Okay, so that is not a punishable offense under existing laws, though we could track down the person who originally duplicated my discs, and he would likely claim the same thing. How much money are we prepared to spend forcing people to follow the law as it relates to copyrights? Your normal attorney will charge a minimum of about $50 an hour. So let's say it takes him 10-20 hours to finally track down the person who used sounds, art, photos, etc. that belong to us. The law says very clearly that the first step is a cease and desist order. So he/she says okay, they won't use your photo any more. Now you are out $500-1000, and all you got was one person's "promise" not to do it any longer. Hardly worth it. The bottom line is that it makes for lively discussions here, but ultimately, nothing will change. A company like eBay is not going to commit resources to track down a person who will claim either "fair use" of Internet images, or claim he or she received them from someone else. While eBay may seem like a gigantic corporation to you and I, it is actually a fairly small company with many parts (like PayPal), each of which makes a small amount of maney off each transaction (plus some additional revenues from advertisers). I am almost certain that someone will eventually start making copies of my CP DVD (if they have not done so already). The fair use law says you can make a backup copy, but maybe that person "accidentally" sells (or simply gives) the backup copy to someone who also claims he has the right to make a backup and then on and on. While all this seems very clear cut to those of us who have been hit the hardest, I am afraid that there is truly very little we can do in terms of the Internet. There are too many loopholes. Plus, most of us have never actually filed a copyright for any image (that costs money). Slapping a big copyright notice on your photos may help, though if you don't stick it smack dab in the middle of the image, it will be easy to crop out. We cannot condone the activity of lifting our work, but I am afraid we must come to accept it. Or at least until someone with a small fortune decides that he or she will "right this wrong." I'm not holding my breath . . . Best regards, Jim ################### From: meadow at bealenet.com (Phil Sheridan) Date: Mon Jan 5 12:30:00 2004 Subject: [CP] Cephalotus seedlings and crosses Hi Folks: Just a note to let you know we continue to get germinations on our Cephalorus seed that we produced from crosses this summer. After producing two cotyledons we are getting our first small pitchers. If we have an adequate supply of Cephalotus flowers this year we might be able to produce Cephalotus seed as part of our crossing service. We will keep you posted on this. In the meantime, we have an ample supply of Cephalotus plants on our catalog at www.pitcherplant.org. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station http://www.bealenet.com ################### From: edwards at net2000.com.au (Paul Edwards) Date: Mon Jan 5 12:44:08 2004 Subject: [CP] Photo's on the web C'mon, guys. Is this getting a little out of hand? Are we getting a little paranoid and/or selfish? I mean, does it really matter if someone uses your photos? Are you suffering a loss (of money or credibility) because of it? Or is it a little sulk because you're not seeing your name credited. If it doesn't harm you, and is not harmful for the CP community in general, it doesn't really matter, does it? I think anything that spreads/promotes CPs (esp. to the general public) is good. I would be honoured to have one of my pics on eBay, whether I was credited with it or not. After all, I know it's mine. Paul E. Vic, Australia. ################### From: tmalcolm at islandnet.com (Tim Malcolm) Date: Mon Jan 5 12:49:29 2004 Subject: [CP] More about CP Photos used without permission While everyones getting upset about unauthourized photo use, have a look at the photo gallery at this website: http://www.plantarara.com/ I notice that the U. welwitchii pic is one of mine, although they seem to have mirror-imaged it in a photo editor. Many of the other pictures look a bit familiar as well - I think I have seen them on other people's web sites. I'm not particularly concerned, myself, but I'd be interested to know who else's pictures they've used. tim. ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Mon Jan 5 12:57:00 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Ebay Photo's Hi all, OK, with Tim's apology satisfaction has been acheived on my end. It isn't the use that I object to but the indifference, esp. by big business. After all it is a bit of a compliment when someone lifts your photo's for their use I guess. I just wish those using them would make some effort to contact the owners of the photo's PRIOR to their web publishing. I have had photo's I posted to determine ID by consensus re-posted under erroneous names, and this is not right. It just adds to the confusion in ID already running wild. Yours, William Dawnstar P.S. Jay, if you are reading this, please note that my former name William DiLapi was legally changed when I re-married in 2002 to Dawnstar. All friends should update their files accordingly ;-) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Mon Jan 5 13:13:11 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Unauthorized USe of Photo's Hi Jim, I have to agree with you. Once the photo's are out there, there is really little that can be done legally to curtail their use, unless one has gone the distance to actually copyright the material and can afford a legal battle. This probably excludes most of us, what with spending all our pennies just to keep our plants! In the end, it will be personal ethics and not law that determines civil behavior regarding the use of web published files. The alternative to sharing the photos is to maintain one's intellectual property by not publishing it in electronic format at all, and that would not be a service to anyone! Still, community censure of this sort of behavior is to be encouraged: it will help to educate others as to the possible implications of such web theft. If nothing else, it shows the ignorant person that there will be vocal objections raised, as they rightfully should be, and education will be the result for many. It isn't always easy to source out the authors of the photo's being used, but it isn't impossible either. If someone isn't willing to hoe the row, they shouldn't be picking the corn. Yours, William Dawnstar ______________________________________________________ Message: 7 To: Cp@omnisterra.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings to all and welcome to 2004! I have been reading your posts about people lifting photos for their own use. Here's my experience: The same thing happens continually in the world of sea shells. I have posted photos to the Jacksonville Shell Club Web site (as have many others) at www.jaxshells.org. Sadly, there is a perception that publication on the Web (a free medium) constitutes free use (or as the law calls it, "fair use"). The truth is that almost nobody who posts to the Internet (or has their photos published in various magazines) actually has followed all the proper steps to copyright their material. The old "down home" theory of mailing photos or art to yourself holds little to no weight in court. Truth is, this will probably never change unless and until the government takes over control of the Internet. Is that what we want? Considering all the people it would take to police every site, a "subscription" to the Net will likely cost about $50 a month or more. Companies like eBay will not spend the time and energy, let alone the bucks, to chase down someone who may or may not be adhering to the rather loose "fair use" concept of Web site postings. Let's also look at the music world. Many rap and hip-hop songs make use of drum beats (or even entire instrumental sections) from other albums, yet to the best of my knowledge, not a single person has been forced to pay for that use (except for one "artist" who thought it would be cute to include the audio from the "THX" opening from certain movies and DVDs -- but there he was messing with Lucas Arts). I spent over a decade creating digital samples of acoustic instruments, which I sold and licensed. Every once in a while, someone would contact me and say, "I have some great sounds to trade!" Almost 100% of the time, those sounds would be my own, yet the person was never a customer. His excuse? "Someone gave them to me." Okay, so that is not a punishable offense under existing laws, though we could track down the person who originally duplicated my discs, and he would likely claim the same thing. How much money are we prepared to spend forcing people to follow the law as it relates to copyrights? Your normal attorney will charge a minimum of about $50 an hour. So let's say it takes him 10-20 hours to finally track down the person who used sounds, art, photos, etc. that belong to us. The law says very clearly that the first step is a cease and desist order. So he/she says okay, they won't use your photo any more. Now you are out $500-1000, and all you got was one person's "promise" not to do it any longer. Hardly worth it. The bottom line is that it makes for lively discussions here, but ultimately, nothing will change. A company like eBay is not going to commit resources to track down a person who will claim either "fair use" of Internet images, or claim he or she received them from someone else. While eBay may seem like a gigantic corporation to you and I, it is actually a fairly small company with many parts (like PayPal), each of which makes a small amount of maney off each transaction (plus some additional revenues from advertisers). I am almost certain that someone will eventually start making copies of my CP DVD (if they have not done so already). The fair use law says you can make a backup copy, but maybe that person "accidentally" sells (or simply gives) the backup copy to someone who also claims he has the right to make a backup and then on and on. While all this seems very clear cut to those of us who have been hit the hardest, I am afraid that there is truly very little we can do in terms of the Internet. There are too many loopholes. Plus, most of us have never actually filed a copyright for any image (that costs money). Slapping a big copyright notice on your photos may help, though if you don't stick it smack dab in the middle of the image, it will be easy to crop out. We cannot condone the activity of lifting our work, but I am afraid we must come to accept it. Or at least until someone with a small fortune decides that he or she will "right this wrong." I'm not holding my breath . . . Best regards, Jim __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 ################### From: john.welhs at terra.com.br (Jonh Welchi) Date: Mon Jan 5 14:27:44 2004 Subject: [CP] Transporting VFT's Hi guys, It's been a while since I've written to the list - but I've been accompanying discussions for a number of years now. (For those of you who have long memories, I'm the Australian guy who lives in Brazil and has a small, but expanding, CP business supplying to Rio de Janeiro, Belo Horizonte, and surrounding cities). I'd like to open a discussion forum on the means by which VFT's could be transported in largish quantities by air freight such as to cause minimum disruption to their appearance. Plants need to be bear rooted - although the possibility of wrapping moist sphagnum around their roots remains an option. What I wish to avoid is the use of the system in which the plants are placed in plastic bags to the detriment of the leaves and traps. I'm thinking along the lines of well established methods used for the transport of chocolates, and similar items, in which the leaves would be protected by an "inner" plastic tray, combined with a technique used in the transport of glass bulbed pH electrodes in which the bulb is protected, and at the same time retained moist, by the use of a rubber "teat". Does such a transport system exist? (I don't want to reinvent the wheel!). If any of you guys deal with the wholesale commercialization of CP's (or know of anyone who does), please contact me off-list. Happy Growing, John Welsh. ################### From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk) Date: Mon Jan 5 14:37:18 2004 Subject: [CP] Photo theft Jim Miller wrote: > Sadly, there is a > perception that publication on the Web (a free medium) constitutes free > use (or as the law calls it, "fair use"). I hope you are being facetious! Fair use entitles people to use someone else's work *only* "for purposes of commentary and criticism". Wholesale appropration of images, accredited or otherwise, absolutely does not fall into the domain of fair use. For more info, see http://fairuse.stanford.edu/ > The truth is that almost > nobody who posts to the Internet (or has their photos published in > various magazines) actually has followed all the proper steps to > copyright their material. The old "down home" theory of mailing photos > or art to yourself holds little to no weight in court. I'm not familiar with the down home theory but in any case it isn't necessary. Work (a photograph or an article for instance) published on the Internet or in a magazine is *automatically* protected under U.S. copyright. Again, from the Web site cited above: "Until 1989, a published work had to contain a valid copyright notice to receive protection under the copyright laws. But this requirement is no longer in force -- works first published after March 1, 1989 need not include a copyright notice to gain protection under the law." > Let's also look at the music world. Many rap and hip-hop songs make use > of drum beats (or even entire instrumental sections) from other albums, > yet to the best of my knowledge, not a single person has been forced to > pay for that use Many artists have sued (and won) over samples used by other artists. http://www.google.com/search?q=hip-hop%20sample%20sued Jim, I realize that you are trying to be helpful, but your comments on copyright law are woefully misinformed. No, IANAL either. I encourage anyone interested in the topic to make use of the Stanford site which is an excellent resource on the topic. http://fairuse.stanford.edu/ Peace Philip ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Mon Jan 5 15:20:03 2004 Subject: [CP] re: Photo theft Hi Jim, Thanks for your input regarding photo theft. I understand the situation regarding copyright infringement in music but I think you are wrong - I believe plenty of rappers and other musicians have been sued for sampling other people's music sound recordings and the owners of the copyrights have won. In other cases, the record label the rapper is on owns the sound recordings and therefore grants free access to their back catalog. In these cases, the people responsible for originally putting those sounds on record probably get paid royalties _if_ their contract with the record label provided for royalties... but you know how that goes. I believe there have been other cases where artists have sued and gotten 100% of sales from records which sampled the original. Situations I remember (but don't remember the outcome of): Vanilla Ice's sampling of Queen, the Verve's sampling of - was it the Stones? The Bucketheads sampling of Chicago (which was settled out of court). The Beloved sampling of some opera recording on "the Sun Rising", which I heard they paid the price for. I'm sure there are plenty of others and I could probably remember a few more without straining my brain. You're right about the costs associated with suing. Few people have the financial backing for such a lawsuit and few people can justify it when the stakes are low. In this particular situation, I will contact the person who used the photos and settle things with him. From Rick's email, it seems like he will do the right thing. If not, I can call attention to what I would now consider dishonest activities (since he now knows it's wrong to use pics without permission). I think that would be enough in this case. I think all of you whose photos he used should consider doing the same. I still wonder if he is offering true D.kaieteurensis though.... Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: jim_miller at mindspring.com (Jim Miller) Date: Mon Jan 5 15:42:32 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 7 >From: Philip Semanchuk >Subject: Re: [CP] Photo theft >Jim Miller wrote: > > Sadly, there is a >> perception that publication on the Web (a free medium) constitutes free >> use (or as the law calls it, "fair use"). > >I hope you are being facetious! Fair use entitles people to use someone >else's work *only* "for purposes of commentary and criticism". Absolutely! Which, if you look again, is why I used the word "perception" in that sentence, not to mention, "sadly." >Jim, I realize that you are trying to be helpful, but your comments on >copyright law are woefully misinformed. I never claimed to be a copyright attorney. However, "woefully informed" as I am, I can tell you that in my personal experience, every legal attempt to punish those who violate the existing copyright laws have resulted in no more than a "cease and desist" order, regardless of the severity of the violation. I have personally been involved in two such incidents (thankfully the attorney's fees were paid by companies that licensed my sounds). Despite favorable rulings by the courts, there was never any penalty or fine attached to these violations. And that is my point. You can have all the laws you wish, but punishing those who break them is often darn near impossible. Best regards, Jim ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Mon Jan 5 15:55:44 2004 Subject: [CP] Ivan's Carnivorous Palm Hey Ivan, et al., I recall getting email and then phone messages from a woman who was trying to do research for her grade school daughter's report. The woman was trying to get information about a "carnivorous forest". Although I told her there was no such thing, and that I knew enough about carnivorous plants that if there was some place in the world called the "carnivorous forest" I would have heard about it, she was insistent there was such a place, and she needed information about it. She said her daughter told her about it. Finally I figured it out.... Barry: Ma'am, is it possible your daughter said she was doing research on "coniferous forests"? End of conversation. Later! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: la_islita_de_encanta at yahoo.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon Jan 5 16:29:00 2004 Subject: [CP] Greetings and "Natural" Fungicide Greetings, everybody! I'm now officially a "Master Gardener Intern" and I've loved plants all my life . . . though recently I've gotten into carnivorous plants (not literally . . . har har). I have a ten gallon terrarium (a 4' shop light above it with a cool bulb and a wide-spectrum bulb) with two happy Lowes flytraps (they've colored up and begun to put out a few new leaves since I've brought them home, a good thing, I think), two discount cobra lilies (browning on top . . . roots not cool enough???), and a pitcher plant that seems like it might be waking up from a little dormancy "nap." Yeah, and I joined the ICPS and will soon start seeds, mostly droseras (though I have started to get, like, feverishly excited about nepenthes . . . so now all my freetime and spending money will undoubtedly get eaten alive . . . .) But my main question is about the possibility of using "natural" fungicides on CP seedlings. I know that chamomile tea is often used to prevent "damping off" in other seedlings, and I've also heard that cinnamon has been used to prevent the growth of fungus. These seem much nicer/cheaper/safer than Captan or whatever, but I don't want to burn up any babies from the ICPS seedbank. What do you think? Are these safe? (Couldn't find anything in the archives or online, but maybe I'm just not a clever enough monkey???) Thanks!!! Christina ################### From: myrmecophile at armyants.org (Gordon C. Snelling) Date: Mon Jan 5 16:41:59 2004 Subject: [CP] Photo theft Philip is totally correct, the minute the photo is created it is copyright protected. You do not need to formally do squat. It is yours and can not be used without permission. While it may end up being more trouble that it is worth financially you are legally protected, so even without formal filing of copyright, the improper use of your photos is theft plain and simple. That said, for me it is not the use of the photos I object to it is the total lack of the simple courtesy of obtaining permission. -- Gordon New World Army Ants http://www.armyants.org Notes From Underground http://www.notesfromunderground.org ################### From: alexnetherton at charter.net (Alex Netherton) Date: Mon Jan 5 16:53:50 2004 Subject: [CP] Copyright and use Hi folks; I have been reading with interest the thread on copyrights. I have used many photos on my web site, which is mostly an educational site (I have been a teacher for years). Many of the photos are mine, but a lot of them, especially the CP's of NC page, are from other sites. I have gone to great lengths to obtain permission for the use of all photos, and ask the same respect from others (why anyone would want to use mine, I haven't a clue). Most folks will give permission, though I have had a hard time getting permission to use a photo of a Ringneck Snake for my snake pages - hope I find one this year when I have my camera... No one will reply to my e-mails, so I don't have a photo; simple as that. If anyone who looks at my site finds a picture without permission, I will remove it ASAP. Note; I asked the authors of the sites for permission, just hope the permission was theirs to give... Alex Netherton http://alexnetherton.com ################### From: srcurrie at currieweb.com (Steven R. Currie) Date: Mon Jan 5 18:39:46 2004 Subject: [CP] Greetings and "Natural" Fungicide I use Benomyl myself with success. At least fungus doesn't kill my plants. IMHO "Natural" fungicide just involves not putting your plants in a situation that promotes fungus! I just bought a whole house to fill with plants myself! My real goal is to mainly grow plants at home which can live outside in Upstate New York. We also have a bunch of VFTs recently growing from seed in our office at the local high school. These will be used to show students the REAL thing. Right now they only see they only see the plants on a video. Steve On Mon, 2004-01-05 at 19:28, Christina Anderson wrote: > Greetings, everybody! > > > I'm now officially a "Master Gardener Intern" and I've loved plants > all my life . . . though recently I've gotten into carnivorous plants > (not literally . . . har har). I have a ten gallon terrarium (a 4' > shop light above it with a cool bulb and a wide-spectrum bulb) with > two happy Lowes flytraps (they've colored up and begun to put out a > few new leaves since I've brought them home, a good thing, I think), > two discount cobra lilies (browning on top . . . roots not cool > enough???), and a pitcher plant that seems like it might be waking up > from a little dormancy "nap." Yeah, and I joined the ICPS and will > soon start seeds, mostly droseras (though I have started to get, like, > feverishly excited about nepenthes . . . so now all my freetime and > spending money will undoubtedly get eaten alive . . . .) > > > But my main question is about the possibility of using "natural" > fungicides on CP seedlings. I know that chamomile tea is often used > to prevent "damping off" in other seedlings, and I've also heard that > cinnamon has been used to prevent the growth of fungus. These seem > much nicer/cheaper/safer than Captan or whatever, but I don't want to > burn up any babies from the ICPS seedbank. What do you think? Are > these safe? (Couldn't find anything in the archives or online, but > maybe I'm just not a clever enough monkey???) > > > Thanks!!! > > > Christina > > > > > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made > the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 > _______________________________________________ Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > ################### From: kdubash at vsnl.com (KDubash) Date: Mon Jan 5 19:23:55 2004 Subject: [CP] Greetings and "Natural" Fungicide >But my main question is about the possibility of using "natural" fungicides on CP seedlings. I know that chamomile tea is often used to prevent "damping off" in >other seedlings, and I've also heard that cinnamon has been used to prevent the growth of fungus. >Christina I know very little about cp's, as I have just started out on this area. But one "natural" fungicide is supposed to be garlic tea. I use it regularly for my orchids, and other plants. K Dubash ################### From: ullsperg at hotmail.com (Chris Ullsperger) Date: Mon Jan 5 19:55:28 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: carn photos and D. cistiflora "Gifberg Pass" J.M. wrote: "Despite favorable rulings by the courts, there was never any penalty or fine attached to these violations." In addition to what others have written re plaintiff-favorable results, I'll add that it doesn't hurt one's position in an IP case to hire a dedicated IP attorney (instead of relying on on your divorce lawyer). A decent IP attorney will certainly recover damages for you (e.g., profits lost as a result of the theft of your intellectual property) if in fact such damages exist (and assuming that you succeed in proving copyright infringement). But take note: an experienced IP attorney here in California, where much of our country's major copyright cases were written, will cost you substantially more than the previously cited "fifty dollars an hour." $250 to $500 an hour is a better guess. Obligatory plant content: I'm growing some D. cistiflora outdoors this year in the East Bay Area where it doesn't freeze often (thus far this year I've not seen frost) but it does get mighty close. I notice that the first plant to come out of dormancy -- and it just popped out last week -- was this "Gifberg Pass" clone I got from Best Carnivorous Plants some time back. Does anyone have any idea how cold it gets where this plant grows? Has anyone had one survive a freeze? cu _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com ################### From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk) Date: Mon Jan 5 20:20:12 2004 Subject: [CP] Photo theft Jim Miller wrote: >> From: Philip Semanchuk >> Subject: Re: [CP] Photo theft >> Jim Miller wrote: > I never claimed to be a copyright attorney. However, "woefully > informed" as I am, I can tell you that in my personal experience, > every legal attempt to punish those who violate the existing > copyright laws have resulted in no more than a "cease and desist" > order, regardless of the severity of the violation. I have personally > been involved in two such incidents (thankfully the attorney's fees > were paid by companies that licensed my sounds). Despite favorable > rulings by the courts, there was never any penalty or fine attached > to these violations. And that is my point. You can have all the laws > you wish, but punishing those who break them is often darn near > impossible. On that we agree. After re-reading my comments, I stand by what I said but I realize that I said it with more attitude than was necessary. Thanks for not responding in kind. Cheers Philip ################### From: jim_miller at mindspring.com (Jim Miller) Date: Mon Jan 5 20:40:16 2004 Subject: [CP] Photo theft (hopefully the last chapter) >From: "Sundew" >Subject: [CP] re: Photo theft > >Thanks for your input regarding photo theft. I understand the situation >regarding copyright infringement in music but I think you are wrong - I >believe plenty of rappers and other musicians have been sued for sampling >other people's music sound recordings and the owners of the copyrights have >won. Hi Matt, Winning is nothing more than the courts saying you are right. While I am sure you (and Phil) are absolutely right about judgements made against illegal use of other peoples' music, it's a big leap from having a ruling in your favor and actually collecting anything. Art Buchwald sued Eddie Murphy and his production company over the movie, "Coming to America" and he won in a well-publicized court battle. The media loved it, of course. Yet to date, not a penny has changed hands, which is a shame. And for every publicized incident, there are likely a dozen others that you never hear about. If it were not so inappropriate to go into the details here, I could tell you of plenty of instances where people in the music industry have gotten away with copyright infringement. But that is way off topic. >You're right about the costs associated with suing. Few people have the >financial backing for such a lawsuit and few people can justify it when the >stakes are low. In this particular situation, I will contact the person who >used the photos and settle things with him. That is the sensible way to approach it. Hats off to you! It's just not worth the time and effort to pursue legal action, particularly if this individual has publicly said he made a mistake. It's usually pretty easy to find the owner of photos and art posted on web sites. So there is really no excuse for people saying, "I didn't know." This debate has raged for a long time in other discussion groups and listservs, so I'm surprised it took so long to arrive here. But maybe that just means that the problem is not nearly as out-of-control in the CP world. If that's the case, it's really good news. Best regards, Jim ################### From: stephenwd at sbcglobal.net (Stephen Davis) Date: Mon Jan 5 21:10:44 2004 Subject: [CP] D. cistiflora "Gifberg Pass" Hey Chris, I've been growing cistiflora here in the south bay for years. Mine did fairly well outside, and even survived some pretty cold weather. However, a really bad cold snap did kill the buds on one plant. It started to grow some plantlets at it's base that spring but never came back from dormancy that year. I have a lot of detail on my web site about it's history inside and outside on my web site in the propogation section. www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com Stephen Davis Chris Ullsperger wrote: J.M. wrote: "Despite favorable rulings by the courts, there was never any penalty or fine attached to these violations." In addition to what others have written re plaintiff-favorable results, I'll add that it doesn't hurt one's position in an IP case to hire a dedicated IP attorney (instead of relying on on your divorce lawyer). A decent IP attorney will certainly recover damages for you (e.g., profits lost as a result of the theft of your intellectual property) if in fact such damages exist (and assuming that you succeed in proving copyright infringement). But take note: an experienced IP attorney here in California, where much of our country's major copyright cases were written, will cost you substantially more than the previously cited "fifty dollars an hour." $250 to $500 an hour is a better guess. Obligatory plant content: I'm growing some D. cistiflora outdoors this year in the East Bay Area where it doesn't freeze often (thus far this year I've not seen frost) but it does get mighty close. I notice that the first plant to come out of dormancy -- and it just popped out last week -- was this "Gifberg Pass" clone I got from Best Carnivorous Plants some time back. Does anyone have any idea how cold it gets where this plant grows? Has anyone had one survive a freeze? cu _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com ################### From: garkoinsf at netscape.net (Gary Kong) Date: Mon Jan 5 22:23:21 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Ebay Photo's as to the issue of crediting photos, if he's using the CP Photo Finder, many times, the links don't display the home page (although, a quick adjustment to the URL will call it up), for example: http://botany.cs.tamu.edu/FLORA/dcs420/fa02/fa02056.jpg who's to be credited for this photo? one could cite the URL, i suppose. Gary Kong TamlinD Dawnstar wrote: >Hi all, > >OK, with Tim's apology satisfaction has been acheived >on my end. ?It isn't the use that I object to but the >indifference, esp. by big business. ?After all it is a >bit of a compliment when someone lifts your photo's >for their use I guess. ?I just wish those using them >would make some effort to contact the owners of the >photo's PRIOR to their web publishing. ?I have had >photo's I posted to determine ID by consensus >re-posted under erroneous names, and this is not >right. ?It just adds to the confusion in ID already >running wild. > >Yours, > >William Dawnstar > > >P.S. ?Jay, if you are reading this, please note that >my former name William DiLapi was legally changed when >I re-married in 2002 to Dawnstar. ?All friends should >update their files accordingly ;-) > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 >http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > -- San Francisco, CA World Leader Pretend: http://www.foulds2000.freeserve.co.uk/bushv5.htm __________________________________________________________________ New! Unlimited Access from the Netscape Internet Service. Beta test the new Netscape Internet Service for only $1.00 per month until 3/1/04. Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Act now to get a personalized email address! Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ################### From: AppleCakeTeaRoom at aol.com (AppleCakeTeaRoom@aol.com) Date: Mon Jan 5 23:13:03 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: CP Photos used without permission How about contacting and reporting the theft of your pictures to the Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFCC), co-sponsored by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the National White Collar Crime Center (NW3C). Internet Fraud Complaint Center (http://www1.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp) I don't know if they cover anything like this, but it could be worth a shot. Or perhaps another government agency might be of help to you. Just a thought. ################### From: gwcollins at algol.co.uk (Gary Collins) Date: Tue Jan 6 01:37:08 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 8 On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:39:54 -0800, Cp-request@omnisterra.com wrote: >From: "Barry A. Rice" >Subject: [CP] Ivan's Carnivorous Palm >To: cp list >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > >Hey Ivan, et al., > >I recall getting email and then phone messages from a woman who was trying >to do research for her grade school daughter's report. The woman was >trying to get information about a "carnivorous forest". Although I told >her there was no such thing, and that I knew enough about carnivorous >plants that if there was some place in the world called the "carnivorous >forest" I would have heard about it, she was insistent there was such a >place, and she needed information about it. > >She said her daughter told her about it. > >Finally I figured it out.... > >Barry: Ma'am, is it possible your daughter said she was doing research on >"coniferous forests"? > >End of conversation. > A teacher once posted to the internet a similar story. (S)he was marking exam papers, and a pupil had written that large parts of Russia are covered with 'carnivorous forest'. The teacher added that perhaps the pupil had been thinking of the Siberian Taiga.... /Gary ################### From: bill at lifehouseproductions.com (Bill Matthews) Date: Tue Jan 6 02:33:18 2004 Subject: [CP] More on Copyright Hello everyone - As a professional illustrator, copyright is something I deal with all the time. An important issue is the subject of registering your work/photos with the US Copyright office, especially for an important or unique piece. Registration is not necessary to have protection, however, is extremely important because if the work is registered before an infingement, you can collect attorney's fees and statuatory/punitive damages. An (fictitious) example: Reader's Digest or National Geographic has used an image without your permission and put it onto websites, books, and CD's. 1. Without registration of the copyright you might get from a judge/jury $250.00 or the standard rate for an image of that kind and usage. 2. With registration, you would collect attorney's fees, the $250.00, plus the chance of a huge punitive damage award of $50,000.00 - $100,000.00 because the judge wants to teach the infringer (who may have done this knowingly many times) a lesson. Definitely worth filing the registration. To download forms and for more information, go to www.copyright.gov Bill Matthews New England Carnivorous Plant Society LifeHouse Productions | http://www.lifehouseproductions.com Phone/Fax: 203.265.1007 ################### From: Writerguy67 at aol.com (Writerguy67@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 6 05:35:24 2004 Subject: [CP] Benomyl (was re: natural fungicide) Steve Currie writes: "I use Benomyl myself with success." Do you have a current source for Benomyl in the states? It disappeared from my local gardening centers years ago (and I recall reading something about it being banned by the EPA in anything other than professional quantities). Captan was always a poor (non-systemic) substitute, IMHO. Sorry, Christina, to morph your question on natural fungicides into a request for poison sources :-). I've made several presentations to master gardener groups in Northern Virginia, and this subject invariably comes up ... I'm a big fan of integrated pest management, and I'd rather fight with lady bugs than with SEVIN on most of my perennials, but when it comes to MY BABIES ..... blast 'em :-). Jay Lechtman Northern Virginia, USA ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (sundew@hotmail.com) Date: Tue Jan 6 06:20:58 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Ebay Photo's Gary brings up a good point. Bob, if you're reading this, please email me. Matt Wrom: SKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJB To: Cp@omnisterra.com (Carnivorous Plant Discussion group) as to the issue of crediting photos, if he's using the CP Photo Finder, many times, the links don't display the home page (although, a quick adjustment to the URL will call it up), for example: http://botany.cs.tamu.edu/FLORA/dcs420/fa02/fa02056.jpg who's to be credited for this photo? one could cite the URL, i suppose. Gary Kong -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: utricularia4242 at hotmail.com (Travis Wyman) Date: Tue Jan 6 06:39:03 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: D. cistiflora "Gifberg Pass" Hey Chris, Not sure how cold the natural habitat can get but the clones I am growing have survived 3 nights dropping to 27F here in Atlanta when my space heater broke. Travis >From: "Chris Ullsperger" > >Obligatory plant content: I'm growing some D. cistiflora outdoors this >year in the East Bay Area where it doesn't freeze often (thus far this year >I've not seen frost) but it does get mighty close. I notice that the first >plant to come out of dormancy -- and it just popped out last week -- was >this "Gifberg Pass" clone I got from Best Carnivorous Plants some time >back. Does anyone have any idea how cold it gets where this plant grows? >Has anyone had one survive a freeze? > >cu _________________________________________________________________ Worried about inbox overload? Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ################### From: stephenwd at sbcglobal.net (Stephen Davis) Date: Tue Jan 6 07:49:14 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: D. cistiflora "Gifberg Pass" Chris, By the way, if you still have not suffered a frost, given the weather in the last few days, you must be in Berkeley, or somewhere right on the coast. I can't believe that anything but one of our 10 year freezes would be of any worry to you. It's much warmer than down here in south San Jose. We are on the very edge of the "Bay effect." It can get pretty chilly here. Stephen Travis Wyman wrote: Hey Chris, Not sure how cold the natural habitat can get but the clones I am growing have survived 3 nights dropping to 27F here in Atlanta when my space heater broke. Travis >From: "Chris Ullsperger" > >Obligatory plant content: I'm growing some D. cistiflora outdoors this >year in the East Bay Area where it doesn't freeze often (thus far this year >I've not seen frost) but it does get mighty close. I notice that the first >plant to come out of dormancy -- and it just popped out last week -- was >this "Gifberg Pass" clone I got from Best Carnivorous Plants some time >back. Does anyone have any idea how cold it gets where this plant grows? >Has anyone had one survive a freeze? > >cu _________________________________________________________________ Worried about inbox overload? Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ################### From: jmbamboo at att.net (jim mortensen) Date: Tue Jan 6 08:52:02 2004 Subject: [CP] Photo's on the web Thanks for a voice of sanity Paul. I have a web site (not carnivorous plants) and my copyright policy is take the photo's and use them but I would like credit. However, it's not that big a deal. Jim -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Paul Edwards Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 2:44 PM To: CP List C'mon, guys. Is this getting a little out of hand? Are we getting a little paranoid and/or selfish? I mean, does it really matter if someone uses your photos? Are you suffering a loss (of money or credibility) because of it? Or is it a little sulk because you're not seeing your name credited. If it doesn't harm you, and is not harmful for the CP community in general, it doesn't really matter, does it? I think anything that spreads/promotes CPs (esp. to the general public) is good. I would be honoured to have one of my pics on eBay, whether I was credited with it or not. After all, I know it's mine. Paul E. Vic, Australia. _______________________________________________ Cp mailing list Cp@omnisterra.com http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com ################### From: maicinek at yahoo.com (Martin) Date: Tue Jan 6 09:46:51 2004 Subject: [CP] Mexico - Non CP question Hi All, Sorry to bring a non-CP question on this Forum. So despite my interest in CP I am also very keen on Cypripedium orchids. There are three species growing in wild in Mexico but they are difficult to find available for exchange/sale. I am wonder if any of memebers ever seen this species and maybe collected seeds or even grows these species in yours collection? Thanks in advance and pls. e-amil me privately not to send more non-topic mails to the Forum. With best wishes, Martin __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ################### From: bioexp at juno.com (Ivan Snyder) Date: Tue Jan 6 10:18:12 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Carnivorous Palm >I'm not sure, Ivan. Carnivory, like any other feature of a species, surely came about by evolution, no? But evolution works by random mutation and selection, i.e., by "accident", not by "design". Best wishes, Marcus Thanks for your reply Marcus. I was not implying 'intelligent design'. Although, that might prove an amusing topic for discussion here:-) Actually, I meant that a cat trapped in a poplar tree is surely an accident; not a design characteristic inherent to the tree. I seriously think this phenomena in palms should be more carefully studied. Anyhow, the story of my palm tree has come to a close. The night of Christmas was a bad wind storm. Eight dead pigeons dropped from the tree in that one night. Including a severed head, body unfound. An accident? This was a regular event and was the final straw. I had that nasty killer tree removed last week. In hindsight, I should have called on Jim Miller to see about making a DVD documentary. Ivan ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ################### From: aidanselwyn at jktree.fsworld.co.uk (Aidan Selwyn) Date: Tue Jan 6 10:19:38 2004 Subject: [CP] Image Theft Dear All, Not specific to carnivorous plants, but the content of this site demonstrates just how much damage theft of images can do. http://www.antique-clocks.net Regards, ################### From: jennifer.simek at ttu.edu (Simek, Jennifer) Date: Tue Jan 6 10:21:30 2004 Subject: [CP] Copyright question "http://botany.cs.tamu.edu/FLORA/dcs420/fa02/fa02056.jpg who's to be credited for this photo? one could cite the URL, i suppose. Gary Kong" The words "COPYRIGHT J R MANHART" are in the lower righthand side of this photo...so doesn't that answer the question of whom to credit? Or if you want more info, you could go to the "base" of the URL: http://botany.cs.tamu.edu/FLORA, and surf a few pages until you find the Vascular Plant Image Gallery where the image originates: http://botany.cs.tamu.edu/FLORA/gallery.htm. The family links in this gallery give the photo credits, location info, etc. for each photo. Incidentally, if you click on the "contributors" link at the bottom of the gallery's main page, you'll see this statement regarding usage of the photos in this gallery: "Digital images are open and available from the gallery for any educational, non-profit use. Please contact image gallery contributors with questions regarding their photos or commerical use of copyrighted images made available through this system. " So...with a little effort it's usually easy to find the info you need. And if you still can't find any copyright info after a little surfing, do what they told us to in graduate school: use the URL to cite Internet sources. Jennifer Simek Texas Tech University Department of Biological Sciences Greenhouse Manager ################### From: jim_miller at mindspring.com (Jim Miller) Date: Tue Jan 6 12:19:37 2004 Subject: [CP] CP DVD Clips Hello to all fellow CP maniacs (and any normal people who drop by), Somehow, the URL for the CP DVD clips seems to have slipped through the cracks, as I am getting about one message a day asking where they can be found. Possibly many missed it back when things were quiet here. To view, go here: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/latestnews/cpdvd/clips.html Note that you will need QuickTime to view them, but it's available for free from Apple at: http://www.apple.com/quicktime/products/qt/ (this explains QuickTime) or go here: http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/ Choose the Mac or Windows (XP or 2000) version that matches your system. Note that QuickTime is probably the finest piece of freeware ever written. With it, you can open and view almost any video or audio file, including MPEG-4 and AAC (which is an audio format that produces files of about the same size as MP3s, but with much better fidelity), .MOV, AVI, DV, AIFF, .WAV, BMP, GIF, JPEG and many, many others. How cool is that? You can also download it along with iTunes, which gives you access to the Apple Music Store (you have to sign up, but the material available is amazing -- over 500,000 tracks!! I found music from the 1960s that's no longer available on CD). For those who have returned to the ICPS Web site and were not able to see the clips, make sure you use the "Refresh" or "Reload" commands (In Netscape, it's found under the VIEW menu). ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Tue Jan 6 12:28:31 2004 Subject: [CP] Yet more on image usage Hey Folks, If you cannot contact the photographer or his/her agent, for whatever reason, you should not use the image. If you want to use an image, it is your responsibility to obtain the necessary permission. Cheers Barry >as to the issue of crediting photos, if he's using the CP Photo Finder, >many times, the links don't display the home page (although, a quick >adjustment to the URL will call it up), for example: >http://botany.cs.tamu.edu/FLORA/dcs420/fa02/fa02056.jpg >who's to be credited for this photo? one could cite the URL, i suppose. >Gary Kong ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 6 13:22:07 2004 Subject: [CP] Benomyl (was re: natural fungicide) Ditto. I loved my Benomyl and would love to know where to get some. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: insecttrap at hotmail.com (Michael Manna) Date: Tue Jan 6 14:07:26 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Carnivorous Palm Ivan, Why oh why did you have that beautiful Washingtonia removed? It has been doing humans a service for free which we spend millions maybe billions of dollars annually on (Barry can you refine my guess), the removal of exotic invasive organisms! Besides that it provides shelter for bats, snakes and mother-in-laws. You should have been looking up a recipe for Pigeon soup. That way we could get some diversity in our discussion "Wars". Sincerely, Michael Manna WPB, FL >From: Ivan Snyder >Reply-To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group >To: Cp@omnisterra.com >Subject: [CP] Re: Carnivorous Palm >Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:02:56 -0800 > > >I'm not sure, Ivan. Carnivory, like any other feature of a species, >surely >came about by evolution, no? >But evolution works by random mutation and selection, i.e., by >"accident", >not by "design". >Best wishes, >Marcus > >Thanks for your reply Marcus. I was not implying 'intelligent design'. >Although, that might prove an amusing topic for discussion here:-) >Actually, I meant that a cat trapped in a poplar tree is surely an >accident; not a design characteristic inherent to the tree. I seriously >think this phenomena in palms should be more carefully studied. Anyhow, >the story of my palm tree has come to a close. The night of Christmas was >a bad wind storm. Eight dead pigeons dropped from the tree in that one >night. Including a severed head, body unfound. An accident? This was a >regular event and was the final straw. I had that nasty killer tree >removed last week. In hindsight, I should have called on Jim Miller to >see about making a DVD documentary. >Ivan > >________________________________________________________________ >The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! >Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! >Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com _________________________________________________________________ Expand your wine savvy — and get some great new recipes — at MSN Wine. http://wine.msn.com ################### From: cwasson at cisco.com (Craig Wasson (cwasson)) Date: Tue Jan 6 14:12:35 2004 Subject: [CP] Early bloomer OK... been away for the holidays and sort of neglecting one indoor aquarium full of CP. Guilty. So today I decided I better take the temperates in it out to the garage so they can be chill with the rest of the indoor temperates I moved to the garage in December. I just noticed that the S. Rubra I got from Lowes in March of '03 has sent up a flower! Right now it's about a foot tall and about marble sized. Bent over at the top in position to bloom. I had been reducing the photoperiod approximately to the length of the local days here in Northern Virginia - so everything has been sort of going dormant... but the bloom surprised me. I'd post a picture of it but it'd just show up on EBAY... #:^) So... do I skip dormancy for this guy? Or chill it in the garage and hope I can delay it's opening? Thanks! Craig ################### From: srcurrie at currieweb.com (Steven R. Currie) Date: Tue Jan 6 14:18:36 2004 Subject: [CP] Benomyl (was re: natural fungicide) I have a small white plastic contaner of it which was purchased froma mail order CP dealer probably in 1998 I believe. I do not have it in front of me but tommorrow when I am at the VFT location I will email the brand. I did not realize that it would cause such a stir. I have only ever done CPs on a small scale and so never used up the little bottle that I have. Is it really unavailable now? It seems to work well. Steve Killerplants@aol.com wrote: > Ditto. I loved my Benomyl and would love to know where to get some. > > > Regards, > > > Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA > > >In a message dated 1/6/2004 7:35:47 AM Central Standard Time, >Writerguy67@aol.com writes: Do you have a current source for Benomyl in >the states? It disappeared from my local gardening centers years ago >(and I recall reading something about it being banned by the EPA in >anything other than professional quantities). Captan was always a poor >(non-systemic) substitute, IMHO. >_______________________________________________ Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > > > > > > > ################### From: chuckr at usa.net (Chuck Rossi) Date: Tue Jan 6 14:59:33 2004 Subject: [CP] Benomyl (was re: natural fungicide) Benlate (the product) was phased out in by DuPont in late 2001 because of overwhelming legal costs. Although studies found that benomyl (the chemical) was not toxic, there was a big lawsuit in Florida where farmers claimed Benlate damaged ornamental crops. There are also questions about how benomyl effects pregnant women. So Captan and Benlate are generally no longer available. What should we use instead? One web site mentions "Azoxystrobin" as a replacement. Haven't looked that one up yet. http://ace.ace.orst.edu/info/extoxnet/pips/benomyl.htm http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/actives/benomyl.htm http://www.injuryboard.com/view.cfm/Topic=1175 chuckr On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 05:10:39PM -0500, Steven R. Currie wrote: > I have a small white plastic contaner of it which was purchased froma > mail order CP dealer probably in 1998 I believe. I do not have it in > front of me but tommorrow when I am at the VFT location I will email the > brand. > I did not realize that it would cause such a stir. I have only ever > done CPs on a small scale and so never used up the little bottle that I > have. Is it really unavailable now? It seems to work well. > > Steve > > Killerplants@aol.com wrote: > > > Ditto. I loved my Benomyl and would love to know where to get some. > > > > Regards, > > > > Joe Griffin > > Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: bill.weaver at hp.com (WEAVER,BILL (HP-USA,ex1)) Date: Tue Jan 6 16:22:55 2004 Subject: [CP] Benomyl I believe that Benomyl (aka Benlate) is no longer manufactured. DuPont asked that all the registrations be cancelled back in 2001. see: http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/fung-nemat/aceticacid-etridiazole/benom yl/ If you have some friends in agriculture maybe you can find one with some left on a shelf somewhere, but I don't think you will be buying some anytime soon. Bill ################### From: jim_miller at mindspring.com (Jim Miller) Date: Tue Jan 6 16:29:37 2004 Subject: [CP] Early bloomer Hi Craig, This has been an odd year. When shooting the video for my CP DVD in September, I saw a whole bunch of fresh flowers on some Sarracenia leucophylla, both in Southern Alabama and here in the Florida Big Bend area. It's not all that unusual to find plants sending up flowers in January in my greenhouse (back when I had one--and I hope to have one again soon). It's kind of up to you as far as what you want to do. You can let the plant do its thing and flower, or you can force it into dormancy by placing it outside for lower temps and shorter days. I'd personally just let it flower. I have never seen any damage as a result of a plant not having a "proper" dormancy. If you go the dormancy route, I'd cut off the flower and gradually expose the plant to colder temps, otherwise a severe shock may be too much for it. Like people, sometimes plants do some odd things. Best regards, Jim ################### From: mtalt at hort.net (Marge Talt) Date: Tue Jan 6 17:04:07 2004 Subject: [CP] home made fungicide recipes was:Benomyl (was re: natural Well, FWIW, here are some home made fungicide recipes. I've not tried them on cps, but I know the baking soda one works on powdery mildew on phlox and other plants: Baking Soda Fungicide: (these are US measurements) one gallon water 3 tablespoons baking soda 2 1/2 tablespoons horticultural oil (also called ultrafine oil or summer spray oil) 1/2 teaspoon liquid soap. (like Joy dishsoap) Store in a closed jar and reapply every week to 10 days, esp. after rain. University testing of this spray has been done on only a small range of plant materials, however, primarily roses. If you're trying it on a new plant it's best to test it first on a small section to make sure there's no phototoxicity. ========= Cinnamon (food grade; can be purchased in bulk at places like Sam's Club or bulk food stores) Effective for wide range of fungal problems on orchids including crown rot on phals. Mist foliage and sprinkle on or make a paste and brush on. One post I saved said they used hydrogen peroxide to mix with the cinnamon; others use water. ========= Retail strength Hydrogen Peroxide is effective for less extreme problems (superficial mold and fungus; bacterial infections on leaves, etc. ======== Milk: An article in the Oct 16th, 2001 New Scientist describes the use of milk as a fungicide to combat powdery mildew. "Milk's fungicidal powers were discovered by Wagner Bettiol of the environmental laboratory of Embrapa, the Brazilian Agricultural Research Corporation, n Jaguariuna, north of Sao Paulo. Bettiol, who was looking for cheap ways to control plant pests, observed that byproducts from milk-processing factories killed powdery mildew on courgettes. So he decided to simply spray fresh milk on the plants to see if it had the same effect. To his surprise, he found that it did. In fact, spraying heavily infected plants twice a week with a mixture of one part cow's milk to nine parts water was at least as good at stopping mildew as the chemical fungicides fenarimol and benomyl, Bettiol discovered." Subsequent tests by assorted net gardeners found at l:9, they had to make two or three applications at 1:4 one application did the job. It doesn't seem to make any difference whether one uses skim or whole milk. Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland mtalt@hort.net Editor: Gardening in Shade ----------------------------------------------- Current Article: Spring Peepers http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening ------------------------------------------------ Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html ------------------------------------------------ All Suite101.com garden topics : http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635 ################### From: nickplummer at att.net (nickplummer@att.net) Date: Tue Jan 6 17:06:24 2004 Subject: [CP] re: Mexico - Non CP question > From: Martin > > Sorry to bring a non-CP question on this Forum. > So despite my interest in CP I am also very keen on > Cypripedium orchids. There are three species growing > in wild in Mexico but they are difficult to find > available for exchange/sale. As far as I know, the Mexican species are not in cultivation outside of Mexico. According to Cribb's _The Genus Cypripedium_, one Mexican grower cultivates C. irapeanum in large pots of the original soil collected with the plant. Apparently all three Mexican species are adapted to growth in ferrasols, and cultivation will fail is suitable soil is unavailable. Regards, Nick -- Nicholas Plummer ################### From: AppleCakeTeaRoom at aol.com (AppleCakeTeaRoom@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 6 18:42:53 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: D. cistiflora "Gifberg Pass" Hey Christina, I believe "Gifberg Pass" is in South Africa. Hopefully this is the "Gifberg Pass" the clone's name is referring to. I only found mention of one "Gifberg Pass" when I searched for this. There is mention of the possible environment here: http://www.southafrica.net/heritage/heritage_routes/sn_cycle.cfm Now I guess you'll have to search out international meteorological info for the location. :o) Try emailing Best Carnivorous Plants and ask them what they know about the clone's ancestry and geographical location, they have always been helpful when I have asked them questions. ################### From: CDunn316 at aol.com (CDunn316@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 6 20:05:33 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Benomyl is gone... ################### From: bonnie at gerradroberts.com (Bonnie Rivers) Date: Tue Jan 6 20:30:00 2004 Subject: [CP] Benomyl I bought Benomyl at the local horticulture supply store in Portland, OR USA. It was a small bottle obviously for home use. So I guess it isn't completely gone? -Bonnie ################### From: srcurrie at currieweb.com (Steven R. Currie) Date: Tue Jan 6 21:09:23 2004 Subject: [CP] Best CP as a House Plant Okay everyone. Answer me this: Name me CPs that DO NOT require a dormant period and would make a good house plant or at least a good all year round terrarium plant. I am assuming that there must be something tropical that does not have need for a dormant period. Most of the CPs I am concentrating on (except the VFTs of course) can survive an Upstate New York winter outdoors and need that winter. It would be fun to have something indoors all year round. Steve ################### From: cwasson at cisco.com (Craig Wasson (cwasson)) Date: Tue Jan 6 21:39:42 2004 Subject: [CP] Best CP as a House Plant Hi! There are lots of plants that don't need winter dormancy - anything tropical like Nepenthes, Mexican pings, tropical drosera. Personally I've grown various Nepenthes, Cephalotus and Droseras such as Adelade, Capensis, spathulata in a terrarium for years with great success. I've been growing CP for 30 years but never realized how easy they are to grow until this year. This year I used a self-watering pot and set S. rubra, S. catesbaei, cephalotus, d. capensis and d. binata in it. This has been growing with no special conditions on a sunny kitchen counter for a year and all seem to be doing fine. The sarracenia may suffer eventually from the lack of a winter dormancy, but so far it's a great way to get house guests and visitors more interested in carnivorous plants. I've been told that many Nepenthes do just fine as houseplants outside of terrariums. Next year I'm going to try a few as hanging plants. Just give it a try. They may initially suffer from the change of climate, but if new growth looks good then they should do just fine outside of terrariums. If not then move them back to the terrarium. Good luck! Craig > >Okay everyone. Answer me this: > Name me CPs that DO NOT require a dormant period and would >make a good >house plant or at least a good all year round terrarium plant. >I am assuming that there must be something tropical that does not have >need for a dormant period. > Most of the CPs I am concentrating on (except the VFTs of >course) can >survive an Upstate New York winter outdoors and need that winter. It >would be fun to have something indoors all year round. > >Steve > > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_>omnisterra.com > ################### From: kit at carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us (Kit Halsted) Date: Tue Jan 6 21:47:06 2004 Subject: [CP] Best CP as a House Plant Hi Steve: I have several Nepenthes growing in my front window. The N. x 'Judith Finn' is the least happy as a houseplant. N. alata decided to sprout a new basal rosette after being moved to the window from insufficient lighting & a couple other things got wonky with it, so I'm not sure how well it would be doing otherwise. My N. x hookeriana no longer has any pitchers, but it may be root-bound now. It's still in the 10" pot I put it in when I got it at 8", but it's 3' tall now! So, none of those are doing all that well. Not that badly, but not that well. The Neps that *are* doing well are N. x dominiana (AKA intermedia) & N. rafflesiana. I've had the raff for less than 2 years, but it's gone from just-out-of-TC size to about 2' tall with 5" pitchers. The dominiana's main rosette is also about 2' tall & it's got a 2nd rosette that's nearly as big, & the pitchers are about 4". As for year-round terrarium plants, various Drosera come to mind. Especially spatulata & intermedia "Cuba", which are self-fertile & popping up where they don't belong in my terrarium. D. capensis & some of the binata complex should also do well. I've had 'extrema' growing in my terrarium for a couple years now with no dormancy. Come to think of it, I've got 'extrema' & 'multifida' growing in the window as well, alongside P. moranensis. I've seen fits & starts in the growth of some of these plants that seem to correspond to dormancy. Hope that helps, -Kit At 12:01 AM -0500 1/7/04, Steven R. Currie wrote: >Okay everyone. Answer me this: > Name me CPs that DO NOT require a dormant period and would make a >good house plant or at least a good all year round terrarium plant. >I am assuming that there must be something tropical that does not >have need for a dormant period. > Most of the CPs I am concentrating on (except the VFTs of course) >can survive an Upstate New York winter outdoors and need that >winter. It would be fun to have something indoors all year round. > >Steve -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: hkobayashi4 at hotmail.com (Hideka Kobayashi) Date: Tue Jan 6 22:59:50 2004 Subject: [CP] Fungicides Cleary's, maybe? I wouldn't use it on CPs. They don't like something alkaline such as baking soda and soap. Hideka _________________________________________________________________ Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work — and yourself. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx ################### From: garkoinsf at netscape.net (Gary Kong) Date: Wed Jan 7 00:45:49 2004 Subject: [CP] Best CP as a House Plant Kit and Steve-- I grow most of my plants as houseplants or outdoors. ?But I'm in a cool (not frigid) and relatively damp climate. ?Of the Nepenthes, alata, ventricosa, sanguinea and maxima have all grown well, although the maxima seems to have a period of non-pitchering during the winter. ?Also, the sanguinea needs LOTS of room to sprawl and find support for its relatively large pitchers. ?I grow a khasiana outside. Mexican pings do well year-round, as do D. regia, which experiences reduced, but continuous growth during the winter. ?D. adelae also keeps producing leaves and flowers year-round. ?It's still bloming from the same flower stalk it put up back in August! I'm growing Ivan Snyder's D. anglica (CA x HI) and rotundifolia "Evergrow" in a terrarium, but I'm sure they'd do just fine out in the open. ?They have periods of growth and semi-dormancy, which seems concurrent with light availability. U. lividia seems to be a continuous grower, as well. ?It's been blooming since the day I got it, over four months ago. All enjoy real sunlight. ?Unfortunately, it hasn't been all that sunny in San Francisco this winter. ?:( Gary Kong Kit Halsted wrote: >Hi Steve: > >I have several Nepenthes growing in my front window. The N. x 'Judith >Finn' is the least happy as a houseplant. N. alata decided to sprout >a new basal rosette after being moved to the window from insufficient >lighting & a couple other things got wonky with ?it, so I'm not sure >how well it would be doing otherwise. My N. x hookeriana no longer >has any pitchers, but it may be root-bound now. It's still in the 10" >pot I put it in when I got it at 8", but it's 3' tall now! So, none >of those are doing all that well. Not that badly, but not that well. >The Neps that *are* doing well are N. x dominiana (AKA intermedia) & >N. rafflesiana. I've had the raff for less than 2 years, but it's >gone from ?just-out-of-TC size to about 2' tall with 5" pitchers. The >dominiana's main rosette is also about 2' tall & it's got a 2nd >rosette that's nearly as big, & the pitchers are about 4". > >As for year-round terrarium plants, various Drosera come to mind. >Especially spatulata & intermedia "Cuba", which are self-fertile & >popping up where they don't belong in my terrarium. D. capensis & >some of the binata complex should also do well. I've had 'extrema' >growing in my terrarium for a couple years now with no dormancy. Come >to think of it, I've got 'extrema' & 'multifida' growing in the >window as well, alongside P. moranensis. I've seen fits & starts in >the growth of some of these plants that seem to correspond to >dormancy. > >Hope that helps, >-Kit > >At 12:01 AM -0500 1/7/04, Steven R. Currie wrote: >>Okay everyone. ?Answer me this: >> ?Name me CPs that DO NOT require a dormant period and would make a >>good house plant or at least a good all year round terrarium plant. >>I am assuming that there must be something tropical that does not >>have need for a dormant period. >> ?Most of the CPs I am concentrating on (except the VFTs of course) >>can survive an Upstate New York winter outdoors and need that >>winter. ?It would be fun to have something indoors all year round. >> >>Steve > > >-- >Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us >Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > -- San Francisco, CA World Leader Pretend: http://www.foulds2000.freeserve.co.uk/bushv5.htm __________________________________________________________________ Thank you for using Netscape. ################### From: Writerguy67 at aol.com (Writerguy67@aol.com) Date: Wed Jan 7 05:29:45 2004 Subject: [CP] Fungicide alternatives (thanks!) Great information on Benomyl alternatives, everyone, thanks! I like the cinnamon idea particularly ... perhaps having my Sarracenia flava smell like pumpkin pie in the spring, instead of ... ahem ... "musty" will be an improvement . To add my own $.02 to the thread as well (instead of merely crying for help as I did in my earlier posting), I have been using Cleary 3336WP with fairly good success. Cliff Dodd (highly successful Nepenthes and Heliamphora grower)mentioned it in a presentation at the ICPS International Conference in Atlanta (apparently noted for its very low phytotoxicity even at hyper concentrations). I received a portion of a large professional container from a friend, and more recently purchased it at www.petflytrap.com in amateur grower sizes. The Cleary is far more pungent than my recollections of Benomyl, but I'm not sure if that translates into being any nastier to human applicators. Jay P.S. Marge? Where are you in Maryland? ################### From: Writerguy67 at aol.com (Writerguy67@aol.com) Date: Wed Jan 7 05:34:01 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: D. cistiflora "Gifberg Pass" I received seed with this ID from Eric Green in 1997. Unfortunately, it was one clone that didn't survive (although I do still have "red" and "pink 49cm" forms from that original seed batch). Eric botanized in the Cape Province of South Africa (although I don't have any more specific geographical information). I haven't heard from Eric, electronically or otherwise, in many years, but I know that Robert Gibson of Australia visited him a few years ago. Perhaps someone who is in contact with Robert can work through him to get original collection data on the plant from Eric. Jay ################### From: utsubokazura at hotmail.com (Amaury Watanabe) Date: Wed Jan 7 07:30:42 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: Best CP as a Houseplant Hello everyone Out of experimentation, I decided to grow N x edinensis inside my living room, where the humidity never rises above 45%. I thought the cutting would croak but so far it hasn't shown any sign of distress. In fact, it is growing, slowly but surely. I'm still waiting for the first pitcher to fully develop in these conditions, and it seems like it will do just fine. The reason why I decided this hybrid may be a good contender for drier climates is the fact that A: it is a weed; and B: a tendril managed to squeeze through the panes of glass on the greenhouse at the Frederik Meijer Gradens, MI, into the arid greenhouse, where the humidity, obviously, is very low. That pitcher remained healthy for a very long time. For the moment I don't grow anything outside of a terrarium. Cheers! Amori Watanabe EGR, MI _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ################### From: Cpbog at aol.com (Cpbog@aol.com) Date: Wed Jan 7 08:31:16 2004 Subject: [CP] Does Cephalotus need dormancy? Does Cephalotus need dormancy? I have found many sources that indicate that growth declines if not given dormancy, while others claim that dormancy can be completely ignored and the plant would do fine. This brings up another question: Would Cephalotus dormancy be enough if it's just a cycling of lights in the terrarium? Or do temperatures have to drop during the winter? Thanks for the help! ################### From: JDPDX at aol.com (JDPDX@aol.com) Date: Wed Jan 7 09:33:13 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Natural Fungicides and CP Houseplants I've been reading the thread on fungicides and can recommend two from my own use. The Safer corporation makes a sulfur based fungicide that works as a good preventative. I've used it on Darlingtonia, Sarracenia, Flytraps, Cephalotus, and many seeds with good results. The other is products based on Neem (Azadachtrin?). Neem is both fungicidal and a decent insecticide. Neem seems to have better eradicative properties. Also, some were mentioning cinnamon. A commercial product exists based on cinnamon. I can't remember the name, but it can be purchased from www.rosecitywholesale.com in Portland, OR. A couple plugs for CP houseplants. Nepenthes truncata; it's very tolerant of low humidity, is somewhat shade tolerant and can produce magnificent pitchers. It is a bit slow growing, however. If you have enough sun I've also had good luck with N. alata hybrids, N. Khasiana, N. maxima hybrids, Most shorter Sarracenia do well as windowsill plants if you have very sunny windows. Same with Venus flytraps and sundews such as capensis and binata forms. Mexican Pings, particularly P. moranensis and P. gypsicola X agnata do very will when grown in east or north windows using African violet pots. I have one P. moranensis that has been in a violet pot for 3 years growing in a large north window. It requires very little care and blooms every year. Jeff Portland, OR ################### From: DougWitkowski at netscape.net (DougWitkowski@netscape.net) Date: Wed Jan 7 10:20:16 2004 Subject: [CP] CP's as houseplants I have been particularly interested in this topic as my terrarium is getting quite crowded. I have N. Khasianna, Truncata & Veitchii x Spatulata growing in the bathroom. All seem to be doing well, especially the cross. I would like to try alata and ventrata. I had a ventricosa but it wasted away and I am now trying to bring it back in the terrarium. I was suprised it did not do better as it has very thick leaves. I also had a cocinnea, that died a slow death. I am located in central Texas and it can get quite dry here. The house tends to run 40-50% but the bathroom runs up to 70% after a shower. It seems that the thicker leaved plants can adapt to dryer climate but they still need bright light, and the challange is not to burn them with both direct sun and low humidity. I'd like to hear what others experiences are with Nepenthes as house plants. Please include the location and estimated or measured air conditions. Doug W __________________________________________________________________ Thank you for using Netscape. ################### From: erccmacfitheal at yahoo.com (Nathan Miller) Date: Wed Jan 7 10:26:17 2004 Subject: [CP] Fungicide alternatives (thanks!) --- Writerguy67@aol.com wrote: >I like the cinnamon idea particularly ... perhaps having my Sarracenia flava smell like pumpkin pie in the spring, instead of ... ahem ... "musty" will be an improvement . I've used cinnamon on my roses to control black spot with good success. However, there is one caveat regarding cinnamon that should be taken into consideration. Although it's a good natural fungicide, it has also been shown to interfere with root growth. I haven't attempted to use cinnamon on seedlings myself. You might try treating the medium surface with cinnamon before sowing the seed, although I don't know how long it takes for cinnamaldehyde to leach off the soil surface, so I don't know if this would work. I also understand that cloves are another natural fungicide (or is it a bacteriocide? I forget which...). I don't know of any ill effects it has on small plants. Eucalyptus oil is another good natural fungicide. You could probably get some leaves, grind them up into really small pieces and mix them in with your medium. I haven't tried this either, but it may be worth a try, especially if you find yourself with some surplus seed. Nathan Miller Newberg, OR __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ################### From: zpyder at hotmail.com (Chris. M.) Date: Wed Jan 7 11:23:38 2004 Subject: [CP] Neps as houseplants Hello there. I don't post much as I don't really keep many CP's, though in the past have had a fair little bit of experience with the more common varieties. I live in the south of the UK, so conditions I'd imagine are pretty different from yours, but I hope what I can tell you will help. The one key thing with neps, are the pitchers. they are what make the plant. without high humidity or decent conditions, they don't grow pitchers, and/or the ones they do have, shrivel and die. I found that because of this, it was quite hard to grow nice specimens. Misting daily wasn't very practical as they stayed on my windowsil and the excess moisture would rot the surroundings. I then discovered how to kep humidty up. I did this by using "double saucers" where I have a large saucer, in which sits a smaller saucer, and in the smaller saucer, I put the plant pot. This allows me to put water under the plant, so that I can water the roots, or just have water which evaporates, with the vapour rising and being absorbed through the undersides of the leaves. I remember that neps are quite sensitive to root rot, which is why I don't leave much water standing in the central saucer, but always keep the outer reservoir filled, and I always have pitchers. The onyl problem is when they're cuttings, or low lying plants, the pitchers have a tendency of resting in the water. I think so long as the temperature is maintained, and you have the right light level for the species, you could use this method to grow most neps. You can also substitute the double saucer for a long/large tray, with individual saucers in that. If my descriptions confusing, I can take a picture of my set up to show you guys. Hope this helps. Regards, Chris Moody Zpyder@hotmail.com http://www.zpyder.co.uk _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ################### From: h7n at talk21.com (h7n@talk21.com) Date: Thu Jan 8 03:26:37 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Fungicide alternatives (thanks!) >The Cleary is far more pungent than my recollections of Benomyl, but >I'm not sure if that translates into being any nastier to human >applicators. I advise you not to put yourself in a situation where you can smell any pesticide or fungicide. NigelH -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com ################### From: christoph_belanger2001 at yahoo.com (Christoph Belanger) Date: Thu Jan 8 05:51:51 2004 Subject: [CP] Best CP Houseplant I would go for N. truncata. I have mine growing in a sunny to light place. It flowers annually (producing some complaints from my wife) and it produces 15in+ inches regularly. It doesn't grow too quickly, doesn't mind being forgotten ever so often and it can spend the summer my deck where it enjoys live food from a steady strean of Ants, once they find it. Without a doubt N. truncat is the way to go. Christoph __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ################### From: slawarre at meijergardens.org (Steve LaWarre) Date: Thu Jan 8 06:31:32 2004 Subject: [CP] Pictures of the Nepenthes at FMG Hey There, A good friend and volunteer here at Frederik Meijer Gardens posted some pictures of the Nepenthes collection on the PFT web forum. They are quite good! Check it out: http://www.petflytrap.com/cgi-bin/ib312/ikonboard.cgi?s=7dd0d4db6e50663f 33f89cacb6c4ff78;act=ST;f=7;t=9614; ################### From: nickplummer at att.net (nickplummer@att.net) Date: Thu Jan 8 06:51:35 2004 Subject: [CP] re: Nepenthes as houseplants My first Nepenthes was one of those mass produced Nepenthes Ventrata types that come out of Holland. I grew it in a south-facing window in Michigan. The plant pitchered heavily in summer and then tended to stop pitchering for a couple of months in winter. Vegetative growth was good year round. I should note that the apartment was heated by hot water radiators, so it probably was not as dry as a building heated by forced air. I think this N. Ventrata is a particularly nice clone for windowsill growing, because it has reasonably sized, colorful pitchers but does not become an enormous monster. Young rosettes pitcher easily, but I found that the climbing stems would only pitcher if the tendril could twine around a support. So, for indoor growth, you can just cut off the climbing stems to make a nice shrubby potted plant. Nick -- Nicholas Plummer nickplummer@att.net Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA ################### From: hkobayashi4 at hotmail.com (Hideka Kobayashi) Date: Thu Jan 8 06:54:14 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: Eucalyptus essential oil It is "fungicidal" but I am not too sure how good it is when used as a fungicide. It is a good insect/mite repelant, though. Thymol is *supposedly* a good fungicide. Two things about essential oil: 1. Essential oil content is very small in fresh samples 2. If dry leaves are used, the content is usually much lower Also I would be bit concerned about allelopathy or disease transmission. Eucalyptus essential oil is one of the cheapest unlike, say, chamomile or sandalwood essential oil. You can get it very easily, too. Hideka _________________________________________________________________ Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work — and yourself. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx ################### From: macsundew at yahoo.com (Mac Marland) Date: Thu Jan 8 07:00:08 2004 Subject: [CP] CPs as Houseplants I have grown several different CPs as houseplants since I started in the hobby. I had great success with D. Multifida "Extrema", P. Moranensis, U. Livida. These all flourished on an east facing windowsill in a typical San Francisco bay area home, i.e. fairly low humidity. I currently have three neps in the same window--N. Truncata doing very well with 9-10" pitchers, N. Sanguinea maybe 5" pitchers, but the best growing is N X Home Depot, which has a basal rosete growing along with the mother plant with a profusion of nice pitchers of varying sizes. The latter is mainly N. Maxima. I mist the neps at least once daily but a little less frequently in the heart of our dark and damper winter and more frequently during our over 100 degree weeks in the summer. I keep all the plants close together to maximize humidity, use an orchid water tray uncer the sanguinea and leave a small amount of water in the saucers under the neps. This has worked well for me. The X Home Depot is6 years old, the sanguinea and truncata about 5 yrs, all in the same spot. Mac in San Jose,CA suburbs ################### From: cteichreb at hotmail.com (Chris Teichreb) Date: Thu Jan 8 07:23:49 2004 Subject: [CP] re: Nepenthes as houseplants Hey everyone, My move to the chilly prairies was successful (for those of you who knew I was moving!). If I owe you an e-mail, please be patient, as I'm still settling in out here. On a cp related note, I second N. x ventrata as a good windowsill plant. At one of the VCPC meetings, I was brought a very healthy specimen which lacked any pitchers to see if I could figure out why it wasn't pitchering. Well, the soil was completely bone dry. The grower had been treating it as a houseplant, watering it once a week or so and letting it dry out between waterings. So, if it can take this sort of treatment, imagine how well it'd do with water! Good luck! Chris -- Chris Teichreb http://www.geocities.com/VCPC2000 (Vancouver Carnivorous Plant Club) > >My first Nepenthes was one of those mass produced Nepenthes Ventrata types >that come out of Holland. I grew it in a south-facing window in Michigan. >The plant pitchered heavily in summer and then tended to stop pitchering >for >a couple of months in winter. Vegetative growth was good year round. I >should note that the apartment was heated by hot water radiators, so it >probably was not as dry as a building heated by forced air. > >I think this N. Ventrata is a particularly nice clone for windowsill >growing, >because it has reasonably sized, colorful pitchers but does not become an >enormous monster. Young rosettes pitcher easily, but I found that the >climbing stems would only pitcher if the tendril could twine around a >support. So, for indoor growth, you can just cut off the climbing stems to >make a nice shrubby potted plant. > >Nick >-- >Nicholas Plummer >nickplummer@att.net >Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ################### From: SKAUKA at UCMAIL.UC.EDU (Skau, Kenneth (skauka)) Date: Thu Jan 8 07:31:19 2004 Subject: [CP] Newsletter Greetings: I seem to remember that a notice was posted several weeks ago that the December issue of the Newsletter went out. I haven't received mine yet and wondered if others have received theirs or if there is a hold up in the mail. Thanks. Kind Regards, Ken Skau ################### From: massey at fmhi.usf.edu (Massey, Oliver) Date: Thu Jan 8 07:34:41 2004 Subject: [CP] Newsletter I received mine. Tom in Fl. -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:32 AM To: 'Cp@omnisterra.com' Greetings: I seem to remember that a notice was posted several weeks ago that the December issue of the Newsletter went out. I haven't received mine yet and wondered if others have received theirs or if there is a hold up in the mail. Thanks. Kind Regards, Ken Skau _______________________________________________ Cp mailing list Cp@omnisterra.com http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com ################### From: srcurrie at currieweb.com (Steven R. Currie) Date: Thu Jan 8 08:54:39 2004 Subject: [CP] Newsletter I received mine newsletter also. ################### From: bioexp at juno.com (Ivan Snyder) Date: Thu Jan 8 10:24:57 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Carnivorous Palm Trust me Michael, you would not think it so beautiful if you had all the trouble I've had. Fifty pounds of crap could fall out of that tree in one day. And following Murphy's Law, at the worst possible moment. I had to tell anyone visiting to not dare stand beneath that tree. All my neighbors agreed I did the right thing in having it removed. They knew of the horrors. In one of the last incidents Susan from across the street was walking by and told me there was a dead pigeon in my driveway. I replied, "only one this time"? My philosophy: If it's true that God created the world, then surely the Devil modified that tree and sowed it on my property! I often felt like the character Lot in the bible. In removing it I put an end to those trials and tribulations. Ivan >Why oh why did you have that beautiful Washingtonia removed? It has been doing humans a service for free which we spend millions maybe billions of dollars annually on (Barry can you refine my guess), the removal of exotic invasive organisms! Besides that it provides shelter for bats, snakes and mother-in-laws. You should have been looking up a recipe for Pigeon soup. That way we could get some diversity in our discussion "Wars". Michael Manna ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Thu Jan 8 11:29:50 2004 Subject: [CP] Newsletter We may not have a football coach yet, but by gum, Nebraska got our newsletter at least a couple of weeks ago. Regards, ################### From: AppleCakeTeaRoom at aol.com (AppleCakeTeaRoom@aol.com) Date: Thu Jan 8 12:17:54 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Nepenthes as House Plants Over the summer I purchased a Nepenthes Fusca Sarawak, is thrived in the shade outside in 100+ temps here in Dallas, TX with daily mistings everytime I passed the plant. With the frost and cold temps I have moved it indoors and it is doing well with daily mistings in our bathroom where it gets less light than it should. Pitchers are about 3-4 inches long. I couldn't guess at the humidity inside the house currently, but it is heated by forced air, and it feels drier than normal. But with daily showers the humidity soars! ################### From: Cpbog at aol.com (Cpbog@aol.com) Date: Thu Jan 8 15:29:11 2004 Subject: [CP] looking for Cephalotus Hi, I am trying to trade off many different Mexican Pings and tropical Drosera that I have been propagating for some time. I am currently most interested in Cephalotus. Please send me an e-mail if interested. Good growing, ################### From: garkoinsf at netscape.net (Gary Kong) Date: Thu Jan 8 17:18:55 2004 Subject: [CP] Fungicide alternatives (thanks!) Not sure the Eucalyptus is such a great idea. ?I was told that it produces a growth inhibitor, not to mention cyanide. ?Here in SF, many a copse are surrounded by bare ground. Gary Kong Nathan Miller wrote: > > >--- Writerguy67@aol.com wrote: >>I like the cinnamon idea particularly ... perhaps having my >>Sarracenia flava >smell like pumpkin pie in the spring, instead of ... ahem ... "musty" >will be an improvement . > >I've used cinnamon on my roses to control black spot with good success. >However, there is one caveat regarding cinnamon that should be taken >into consideration. ?Although it's a good natural fungicide, it has >also been shown to interfere with root growth. ?I haven't attempted to >use cinnamon on seedlings myself. ?You might try treating the medium >surface with cinnamon before sowing the seed, although I don't know how >long it takes for cinnamaldehyde to leach off the soil surface, so I >don't know if this would work. > >I also understand that cloves are another natural fungicide (or is it a >bacteriocide? ?I forget which...). ?I don't know of any ill effects >it has on small plants. > >Eucalyptus oil is another good natural fungicide. ?You could probably >get some leaves, grind them up into really small pieces and mix them in >with your medium. ?I haven't tried this either, but it may be worth a >try, especially if you find yourself with some surplus seed. > >Nathan Miller Newberg, OR > > > >__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: >Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes >http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus > >_______________________________________________ Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > -- San Francisco, CA World Leader Pretend: http://www.foulds2000.freeserve.co.uk/bushv5.htm __________________________________________________________________ Thank you for using Netscape. ################### From: jsg16 at utah.edu (John Green) Date: Thu Jan 8 21:16:35 2004 Subject: [CP] CPs in the newspaper I ran across the following newspaper article about CPs: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510036658,00.html I hope his business does well. John Green West Hills, California USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm ################### From: sclancy at uci.edu (Steve Clancy) Date: Fri Jan 9 12:20:26 2004 Subject: [CP] CP clubs, meetings near Raleigh NC Howdy, Is anyone aware of any CP groups, clubs or meetings in the Raleigh-Durham area of North Carolina? My nephew, who actually lives in Apex, is very interested and is growing some CP. He would really like to join a group of other growers in his area. Thanks in advance! --steve -- Steve Clancy, MLS AHIP, Medical Librarian & Library Proxy Coordinator Science Library, Univ. of Calif., Irvine CA. U.S.A. 949-824-7309 * sclancy AT uci.edu * sun3.lib.uci.edu/~sclancy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, 'I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along.' You must do the thing you think you cannot do." -- Eleanor Roosevelt ################### From: Tigre04 at aol.com (Tigre04@aol.com) Date: Fri Jan 9 19:58:08 2004 Subject: [CP] Nepenthes Growth Problem Hi List, I am dealing with a little, recent problem. My N. rafflesiana has stopped producing pitchers and I more or less know exactly why. It is most likely my humidity levels. My growing area is very small in my room because the room itself is very small and I have no other place to set-up a terra or anything of that sort. Anyways, I was wondering if the plant can survive prolonged periods of time that way. I have noticed some rot which is from the leaves I have clipped and such. I tug on the plant once in a while to make sure the roots are intact, but I do not know how long it will last. It hurts me to see a cp die, even if it is not my own because everyone deserves learning and growing with the cp. To me all cp's and cp growers are all equal. Back to the subject, please let me know if the plant can pull through. I just ask for it to hold on until Spring because then I plan to post a message asking if anyone is willing to more or less hold my cp's while I am at college. You know, I could just give them away, only to someone that I trust and is certain to love them. The N. rafflesiana is my first Nep. I love it dearly. It would be awesome to get it back when I can tend plants in my own residence and tell people it was my first Nep. Thank you all very much. Take care. ################### From: steven.stewart at worldnet.att.net (Steven Stewart) Date: Sun Jan 11 07:24:05 2004 Subject: [CP] Brocchinia reducta Hello all, Does anyone on here have description information or personal knowledge of the seed of Brocchinia reducta? I find lots of photos of this species and plant/ inflorescence descriptions, but nothing about the type of seed this species produces. I have grown this what I was told is this species for more than ten years. My plant flowered and produced seed in 2000, and a now mature plant from that seed is going to flower, but I have never read a comprehensive description, which included fruit and seed, of this species. Thank you in advance, Steven Stewart Florida, USA ################### From: srcurrie at currieweb.com (Steven R. Currie) Date: Sun Jan 11 08:12:05 2004 Subject: [CP] Sarracenia purpurea purpurea germanation times I posted last sunday asking how many weeks Sarracenia Purpurea Purpurea took to germanate and at that time they had been planted 4 weeks. Today is the end of the 5th week and despite New York State having a bitter cold spell I have three seedlings sprouting up. 57 to go! Thanks to everyone who wrote me on this. Everyone was 100% correct in their advice. I think it is cool that Purple Pitcher Plants (Northern) can sprout in such cold. Steve ################### From: dave at whybnormal.com (Dave Meyer) Date: Mon Jan 12 07:49:21 2004 Subject: [CP] Mr. Heater Buddy Heater Hello All! Has anyone used the Mr. Heater Portable Buddy heater in the greenhouse to keep the heat up? I currently have an unheated 7x9 twin-wall polycarbonate setup and in the past most of my plants have made it through the winter but it appears that this one is going to be really bad. ################### From: JDPDX at aol.com (JDPDX@aol.com) Date: Mon Jan 12 10:07:50 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Mr. Buddy Heater/Newspaper Article in Utah We just finished a hard freeze here in Portland, OR an I used on of these heaters in my tropical greenhouse to supplement electric heat. They work great, and are very safe with one caution. Try to make sure you have some source of fresh air going into the greenhouse. I noticed some damage on sundews that may have been from excessive carbon monoxide, or just lack of oxygen at night. I was looking at the newspaper article on MyCarnivorousPlant. Cute gimmick, but it reinforces lots of mythology about Venus Flytraps. If I had a nickel for every person who has killed a flytrap via the little plastic terrarium... If someone understands the seasonal terrarium it's a different matter. 95% of people who buy a product like this will not understand that. He also states that it will never outgrow it's pot. Strange. I've never met a flytrap who read that. Jeff Dallas Portland, OR ################### From: nickplummer at att.net (nickplummer@att.net) Date: Mon Jan 12 13:08:19 2004 Subject: [CP] re: Cp clubs, meetings near Raleigh, NC Hi Steve, I don't know of any CP clubs in the Triangle area, but some of the members of the Triangle Orchid Society also grow lots of CP. If your nephew wants to attend one of our meetings, maybe we can get him hooked on orchids, too. Nick -- Nicholas Plummer nickplummer@att.net ################### From: nepenthesdave at hotmail.com (David Ahrens) Date: Mon Jan 12 13:44:40 2004 Subject: [CP] Nepenthes growth problem I shall try to tell you all I know, if anyone else has suggestions, please feel free to add something. I don't know where you are in the world, Paul, for starters. A lot of Neps don't produce too much growth at this time of the year, it's to do with the lack of light. I wouldn't worry too much if the growth has slowed down a lot. If the humidity is high enough, the plant will pitcher. Rafflesiana also needs a minimum of 65 to 70 degrees F to do well. Assuming light, humidity, temp, are OK, I find too much chemical fertilizer can have a depressing effect on growth. I much prefer to feed the pitchers with insects such as small crickets or locusts. All in all, I think that your problem is lack of humidity, raffs aren't know as one of those Neps which tolerates dryish air. You could try putting the saucer in a large saucer of water, so that the pot isn't sitting in water, but the plant has humidity around it. Certainly, if the plant stays alive, it will be better in the spring/summertime anyway. Trying to help, David Ahrens, London _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo ################### From: L.Legendre at uws.edu.au (Laurent Legendre) Date: Mon Jan 12 20:44:29 2004 Subject: [CP] ICPS 2004 This is a last minute reminder to those who aim to present orally their latest CP discoveries at the next ICPS meeting in Lyon France. In just a couple of weeks (at the end of january 2004), we will stop accepting proposals and start working on the book of abstracts with those who have registered interest. So, hurry up! and all the best wishes to all of you for the new year. 5TH INTERNATIONAL CARNIVOROUS PLANT CONGRESS : LYON, FRANCE - JUNE 17-21, 2004 Registration forms available at http://site.voila.fr/dionee/icps2004_en.htm or http://www.carnivorousplants.org/latestnews/2004conference/2004con.html Laurent Legendre l.legendre@uws.edu.au ################### From: high4voltz at hotmail.com (Matt) Date: Tue Jan 13 00:13:11 2004 Subject: [CP] CP in a NASA article Made for some interesting reading http://sensorwebs.jpl.nasa.gov/press/LATimes-sensor-webs.pdf Matt from MN ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Tue Jan 13 00:53:44 2004 Subject: [CP] German Site with lots of Drosera pics I was just forwarded this link: http://www.plantarara.com/carnivoren_galerie/drosera/drosera.htm I remember some of these photos from Kondo's book but many people contributed to that book. I also spot a pic I think MIGHT be one of Fernando's (chrysolepis). Does anyone know whose website this is and the source of the other photos? I would like to see larger versions of a few of these images, some of them are really nice. Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Tue Jan 13 01:06:21 2004 Subject: [CP] PFT forum I just found this while searching Yahoo Groups for "flytrap". Pretty amusing. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/penisflytrap/ the description: "Penis Flytrap is one of the best horror-punk/deathrock bands around.. please feel free to give show reviews, talk about PFT , or talk about the horror story that is your life.. heh and in case you were wondering this club is not an official PFT club, i'm just a fan " I have not heard their music and don't want to (cause deathrock isn't my bag) but I thought some of you here might be amused by this. Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: h7n at talk21.com (h7n@talk21.com) Date: Tue Jan 13 04:14:06 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: looking for Cephalotus > > >Hi, I am trying to trade off many different Mexican Pings and tropical >Drosera that I have been propagating for some time. I am currently >most interested in Cephalotus. Please send me an e-mail if interested. > >Good growing, > >Owen > Hi Owen, Which country are you based in? NigelH -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com ################### From: insecttrap at hotmail.com (Michael Manna) Date: Tue Jan 13 18:03:50 2004 Subject: [CP] Watering tip for indoor pots in saucers Craig, and All, What I do with my inside terrariums on shelves is similar. I have a 4L Nalgene Carboy full of RO ontop of my shelf. It has a valve at the bottom, to which I have an adapter and hose. I water pretty much the same way, using the hose, but I can turn the valve off when I am done, disconnect, and drain the hose. The hardest part is lifting a full carboy 6.5feet to get it on top of the shelf. I tell you that every couple of weeks beats running outside with gallon jugs every time I want to water. P.S. Oh, I just remembered that my hose is 72" long to reach everything. How's that for hose envy? Michael Manna WPB, FL >From: "Craig Wasson (cwasson)" >Reply-To: cwasson@cisco.com,Carnivorous Plant Discussion group > >To: >Subject: [CP] Watering tip for indoor pots in saucers >Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:00:07 -0500 > >Hi; > >Since I have nothing better to do while my outdoor bog sleeps >and my seeds are stratifying - I thought I'd pass along a tip >I recently discovered. > >I found it somewhat of a pain to water my many small pots sitting >in small trays - especially since some shelves are crowded and >access from above is not easy. > >I took a smaller plastic watering can and stretched a 15" piece >of surgical tubing (from Home Depot) over the spout. This allows >me to easily control water flow by pinching the tubing shut as I >move from pot to pot - and it's much easier to reach behind and >around other plants. It has cut my watering time to less than >half what it was before, eliminates nearly all shuffling of pots >to water them, and has reduced the spillage and overflowing that >was previously wasting water and generally making a mess. > >Be sure to raise the tubing above the can to drain it when letting >go or it'll siphon water out. Perhaps this is a well-known tip - >but I had not seen this in any of the web sites or books. > >Happy watering! > >Craig > > > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ################### From: tdstubb at sofnet.com (Tom Stubblefield) Date: Tue Jan 13 18:17:50 2004 Subject: [CP] Watering tip for indoor pots in saucers Michael, Why don't you just use a 5 gallon bucket with a small water pump? Sure would beat a hernia! Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 2:16 PM > Craig, and All, > > What I do with my inside terrariums on shelves is similar. I have a 4L > Nalgene Carboy full of RO ontop of my shelf. It has a valve at the bottom, > to which I have an adapter and hose. I water pretty much the same way, > using the hose, but I can turn the valve off when I am done, disconnect, and > drain the hose. > > The hardest part is lifting a full carboy 6.5feet to get it on top of the > shelf. I tell you that every couple of weeks beats running outside with > gallon jugs every time I want to water. > > P.S. Oh, I just remembered that my hose is 72" long to reach everything. > How's that for hose envy? > > Michael Manna > WPB, FL > > > >From: "Craig Wasson (cwasson)" > >Reply-To: cwasson@cisco.com,Carnivorous Plant Discussion group > > > >To: > >Subject: [CP] Watering tip for indoor pots in saucers > >Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:00:07 -0500 > > > >Hi; > > > >Since I have nothing better to do while my outdoor bog sleeps > >and my seeds are stratifying - I thought I'd pass along a tip > >I recently discovered. > > > >I found it somewhat of a pain to water my many small pots sitting > >in small trays - especially since some shelves are crowded and > >access from above is not easy. > > > >I took a smaller plastic watering can and stretched a 15" piece > >of surgical tubing (from Home Depot) over the spout. This allows > >me to easily control water flow by pinching the tubing shut as I > >move from pot to pot - and it's much easier to reach behind and > >around other plants. It has cut my watering time to less than > >half what it was before, eliminates nearly all shuffling of pots > >to water them, and has reduced the spillage and overflowing that > >was previously wasting water and generally making a mess. > > > >Be sure to raise the tubing above the can to drain it when letting > >go or it'll siphon water out. Perhaps this is a well-known tip - > >but I had not seen this in any of the web sites or books. > > > >Happy watering! > > > >Craig > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Cp mailing list > >Cp@omnisterra.com > >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > > ################### From: AppleCakeTeaRoom at aol.com (AppleCakeTeaRoom@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 13 19:00:00 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 17 In a message dated 1/13/2004 8:07:00 PM Central Standard Time, Cp-request@omnisterra.com writes: "Penis Flytrap is one of the best horror-punk/deathrock bands around.. I have not heard their music and don't want to (cause deathrock isn't my bag) but I thought some of you here might be amused by this. Hey Matt, Imagine my surprise about a year ago as I was searching for "flytrap" on eBay and came across CDs and t-shirts for penis flytrap! LOL ################### From: mtalt at hort.net (Marge Talt) Date: Tue Jan 13 22:25:40 2004 Subject: [CP] Nursery offering CPs - ever heard of it? Hi All, Posted on another list was 'Plants For Kids' site, primarily because they have a yellow Clivia for a pretty low price: http://plantsforkids.com/index.html Checking it out, find they offer several CPs...wonder if any of you all know anything about them? They say in their 'About Us' that "We are the largest wholesale grower of carnivorous plants in the US" - is this true? Any info. would be appreciated. Thanks. Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland mtalt@hort.net Editor: Gardening in Shade ----------------------------------------------- Current Article: Spring Peepers http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening ------------------------------------------------ Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html ------------------------------------------------ All Suite101.com garden topics : http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635 ################### From: kit at carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us (Kit Halsted) Date: Tue Jan 13 22:33:58 2004 Subject: [CP] PFT forum At 3:13 PM -0500 1/7/04, Sundew wrote: >I just found this while searching Yahoo Groups for "flytrap". Pretty >amusing. > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/penisflytrap/ <...> >I have not heard their music and don't want to (cause deathrock isn't my >bag) but I thought some of you here might be amused by this. Heh. Thanks, Matt. For anyone who *is* into deathrock, PFT is Dinah Cancer's current band. You may remember her from 45 Grave. You may in turn remember 45 Grave's "Party Time (zombie version)" from the 1985 film "Return of the Living Dead". -Kit, who looked something like this when he first saw that movie: http://www.kithalsted.com/gothick.jpg -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: garkoinsf at netscape.net (Gary Kong) Date: Wed Jan 14 00:01:44 2004 Subject: [CP] Nursery offering CPs - ever heard of it? I like how they call Drosera "Octopus" plants and Pings "Starfish" plants. I'm kidding, of course. Gary Kong "Marge Talt" wrote: >Hi All, > >Posted on another list was 'Plants For Kids' site, primarily because >they have a yellow Clivia for a pretty low price: > >http://plantsforkids.com/index.html > >Checking it out, find they offer several CPs...wonder if any of you >all know anything about them? ?They say in their 'About Us' that "We >are the largest wholesale grower of carnivorous plants in the US" - >is this true? > >Any info. would be appreciated. ?Thanks. > >Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland >mtalt@hort.net >Editor: ?Gardening in Shade >----------------------------------------------- >Current Article: Spring Peepers >http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening >------------------------------------------------ >Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date >http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html >------------------------------------------------ >All Suite101.com garden topics : >http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635 > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > -- San Francisco, CA World Leader Pretend: http://www.foulds2000.freeserve.co.uk/bushv5.htm __________________________________________________________________ New! Unlimited Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Act now to get a personalized email address! Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ################### From: mtalt at hort.net (Marge Talt) Date: Wed Jan 14 00:38:24 2004 Subject: [CP] Nursery offering CPs - ever heard of it? > From: Gary Kong > > I like how they call Drosera "Octopus" plants and Pings "Starfish" plants. I'm kidding, of course. ---------- Yeah, that, plus the prices is what made me wonder, although they could be doing that to try to appeal to smaller children as the site seems to be oriented in that direction. Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland mtalt@hort.net Editor: Gardening in Shade ----------------------------------------------- Current Article: Spring Peepers http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening ------------------------------------------------ Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html ------------------------------------------------ All Suite101.com garden topics : http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635 ################### From: d_muscipula at hotmail.com (D. Muscipula) Date: Wed Jan 14 11:26:17 2004 Subject: [CP] Nursery offering CPs - ever heard of it? I don't know anything about them, but yes, that's the cheesy label (and naming) that was on the first few CPs i bought when i got back into the hobby a few years ago. They seem to provide most of the plants to garden centers and such (at least in my experience), so perhaps their claim is true. ----- Original Message ----- To: "Carnivorous Plant Discussion group" Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 1:27 AM > Hi All, > > Posted on another list was 'Plants For Kids' site, primarily because > they have a yellow Clivia for a pretty low price: > > http://plantsforkids.com/index.html > > Checking it out, find they offer several CPs...wonder if any of you > all know anything about them? They say in their 'About Us' that "We > are the largest wholesale grower of carnivorous plants in the US" - > is this true? ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Wed Jan 14 15:48:43 2004 Subject: [CP] Cinnamite: A New Insecticide/Miticide Hi friends, I thought some of you with pest problems might benefit from this stuff (see below). Has anyone used it? How about indoors in terraria? Also, anyone have results with cinnamon oil? I see the Cinnamite has caused damage in young growth of some plants and read the cinnamon oil can do the same. Cinnamite: A New Insecticide/Miticide May 26, 1999 Cinnamite is a new insecticide/miticide labeled for greenhouse use from Mycotech Corporation. Derived from cinnamon oil, the active ingredient is cinnamaldehyde (30%). Cinnamite is labeled for use against mites and aphids, as well as powdery mildew. It is registered for use on a wide range of crops, including herbs. It has a 4-hour restricted-entry interval (REI). The material is effective against all stages of mites, including eggs, and it has demonstrated efficacy on green peach and melon aphid. The labeled rate for mites and aphids is 85 fluid ounces per 100 gallons of water. Cinnamite works by contact action only, so proper coverage of all plant parts is essential for control. It is fast acting and has short residual activity, which allows plants to be sprayed before shipping. The material has the added benefit of leaving the greenhouse smelling like cinnamon after use. Product Name: Cinnamite Manufacturer's Name: Mycotech Corporation Address: P.O. Box 4109 Butte, MT 59702-4109 Composition: 30% cinnamaldehyde -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: JDPDX at aol.com (JDPDX@aol.com) Date: Wed Jan 14 16:11:26 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Plants for Kids Plants for Kids is the retail outlet for the wholesale company, Booman Floral. I've bought from them many times and their quality varies. They seem to do a fairly good job with sundews and butterworts, but Sarracenia have been sketchy over the last two years. I don't usually get flytraps from them. The first time I ordered from them they were offering some of Larry Mellichamp's UNCC Sarracenia hybrids. They were some of the prettiest mass marketed pitcher plants I had ever seen. They seem to have undergone some changes in manangement and the quality took a nose-dive. Incidentally, they are the source for the Sarracenia hybrid, "Cobra Nest". Jeff Dallas Portland, OR ################### From: rhillier at swconnection.com (Rick Hillier) Date: Wed Jan 14 18:38:38 2004 Subject: [CP] Watering Tip - This Really Makes It Easy! Greetings, I have a system whereby I run my RO system into a 40-gallon plastic drum and then run a hose to the bottom, which goes to the input of a motorhome water pump. The output goes to a three way connector, one of which goes to a garden hose (on one of those "crank" rollers to keep it neat and coiled when not in use) with an on/off valve with a "spout" connected to the end. The others go to a float valve for auto-top up on my salt water reef aquarium and the other goes to the "input" of a tap in my back yard. The pump is the type that kicks on when it detects a water pressure drop on the output end (i.e. if I am watering plants with the hose, or the tap outside is opened (with a hose that goes to my bog garden - I hope it survives the winter) or the float valve opens for topping the aquarium off. It really makes watering and other chores convenient! >>> Rick <<< ################### From: max at moceanvenice.com (Michael McIntyre) Date: Wed Jan 14 20:01:20 2004 Subject: [CP] Cool companion This is a bit off topic...but I figured CP lovers (like myself) might be interested in a neat little companion for their meat eaters. They're called Ant Lions, little bugs that burrow a pit in the sand and kick sand grains up at roving ants to knock them into their lair. They suck the ants under and toss them out when they're done. Relatively harmless, unless your an Ant. I've had mine for almost a year now, and its habits are always amusing. All the info, cool zen ant lion gardens, and actual critters you need are at: http://www.antlionfarms.com/ Sorry if I've offended any ant lovers, they probably eat other things, as well. ################### From: dcbertelsen at peoplepc.com (Douglas Bertelsen) Date: Wed Jan 14 20:12:14 2004 Subject: [CP] Cool companion Michael, I agree, they're very interesting to watch. I collected on locally last summer and kept it in a canning jar. It pupated (very weird) and metamorphosed to an adult before fall was over. Well worth studying for at least a while. Doug ----- Original Message ----- To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:02 PM > This is a bit off topic...but I figured CP lovers (like myself) might be > interested in a neat little companion for their meat eaters. > > They're called Ant Lions, little bugs that burrow a pit in the sand and kick > sand grains up at roving ants to knock them into their lair. They suck the > ants under and toss them out when they're done. Relatively harmless, unless > your an Ant. I've had mine for almost a year now, and its habits are always > amusing. > > All the info, cool zen ant lion gardens, and actual critters you need are > at: > > http://www.antlionfarms.com/ > > Sorry if I've offended any ant lovers, they probably eat other things, as > well. > > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > > ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Thu Jan 15 05:04:41 2004 Subject: [CP] Drosera Mailing List / Forum - thesundewclub Please note: this is not an effort to detract from this forum, which I feel is an excellent one!! Hi everyone, Some of you might already know this, but for the others.... I am founder and moderator of a group called thesundewclub on Yahoo Groups. I had problems receiving messages posted to this group in the past but these problems are now over! Wooohooo!! So, I expect to be a lot more active now. The great thing about yahoogroups is that you can have all messages delivered to you by email so you don't need web access and you can save messages of interest in your inbox without any hassle. There is also web space for people to post images. The conversation here is usually a lot more serious and focused than in certain other forums because many of our list members are experienced growers who specialize in Drosera. The purpose of this group is to have intelligent discussion about Drosera. If you have a serious interest in Drosera, please visit and join! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thesundewclub/ "This list is for frustrated Drosera growers and sundew enthusiasts who are tired of wading through countless messages before finding mention of our little dewy friends" Thanks, Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: d_muscipula at hotmail.com (D. Muscipula) Date: Thu Jan 15 07:09:14 2004 Subject: [CP] Cool companion I've been a closet Ant Lion lover for years. Every time i spot a row of their pitfalls underneath some overhanging cliff, i get really excited. My siblings think i'm nuts. Thanks for sharing! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 11:02 PM > This is a bit off topic...but I figured CP lovers (like myself) might be > interested in a neat little companion for their meat eaters. > > They're called Ant Lions, little bugs that burrow a pit in the sand and kick > sand grains up at roving ants to knock them into their lair. They suck the > ants under and toss them out when they're done. Relatively harmless, unless > your an Ant. I've had mine for almost a year now, and its habits are always > amusing. > > All the info, cool zen ant lion gardens, and actual critters you need are > at: > > http://www.antlionfarms.com/ > > Sorry if I've offended any ant lovers, they probably eat other things, as > well. ################### From: bioexp at juno.com (Ivan Snyder) Date: Thu Jan 15 09:28:25 2004 Subject: [CP] D. intermedia with pink flower Hi all, Thought some of you might like to know. I had heard of Drosera intermedia and D. rotundifolia sometimes having a pink flower, but doubted it before. I believe you now. I have D. intermedia flowering now and was surprised to see pale pink petals instead of white. This is a first for me. Yes, I'm certain it's not D. capillaris. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Thu Jan 15 15:09:52 2004 Subject: [CP] Cool companion On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 23:02, Michael McIntyre wrote: > This is a bit off topic...but I figured CP lovers (like myself) might be > interested in a neat little companion for their meat eaters. > > They're called Ant Lions, little bugs that burrow a pit in the sand and kick > sand grains up at roving ants to knock them into their lair. They suck the > ants under and toss them out when they're done. Relatively harmless, unless > your an Ant. I've had mine for almost a year now, and its habits are always > amusing. They're all over the place around here. When I was a kid we called 'em "doodlebugs" because as they scooted along under the sand, they left these long, meandering "doodles" as trails. We'd spend hours murdering innocent ants by directing them toward doodlebug pits. They're the larval form of the lacewing, I believe. Which also happens to be an insect predator and quite pretty. I'm not sure I'd call them a good "companion" though, since they need very dry, crumbly sand to effectively make their pitfall traps. Not really the same environment as most CP would enjoy. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Thu Jan 15 15:45:35 2004 Subject: [CP] Cool companion Hi Michael, That website is TOO COOL! I especially like the "bug us" link to their contact info. I'm glad there are pics of real ant lions next to the illustration, cause we don't need another "Sea Monkeys". (Remember - - the drawings on the Sea Monkey box are "fanciful" and do not accurately represent brine shrimp). ;) Thanks! Matt Message: 3 To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" This is a bit off topic...but I figured CP lovers (like myself) might be interested in a neat little companion for their meat eaters. They're called Ant Lions, little bugs that burrow a pit in the sand and kick sand grains up at roving ants to knock them into their lair. They suck the ants under and toss them out when they're done. Relatively harmless, unless your an Ant. I've had mine for almost a year now, and its habits are always amusing. All the info, cool zen ant lion gardens, and actual critters you need are at: http://www.antlionfarms.com/ Sorry if I've offended any ant lovers, they probably eat other things, as well. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk) Date: Thu Jan 15 18:06:17 2004 Subject: [CP] D. intermedia with pink flower Ivan Snyder wrote: > Hi all, > Thought some of you might like to know. I had heard of Drosera intermedia > and D. rotundifolia sometimes having a pink flower, but doubted it > before. I believe you now. I have D. intermedia flowering now and was > surprised to see pale pink petals instead of white. This is a first for > me. Yes, I'm certain it's not D. capillaris. > Ivan Snyder > Hermosa Beach > California Ivan, Good for you! A photo of that would make a fine addition to the CP database. For those of you who are not familiar with this database: http://www.omnisterra.com/bot/cp_home.cgi Cheers Philip ################### From: myrmecophile at armyants.org (Gordon C. Snelling) Date: Thu Jan 15 20:01:00 2004 Subject: [CP] Ant Lions Yup Michael As you were told told on the antfarms message board, they eat any small insects they can catch, : ie fruitflies -- Gordon New World Army Ants http://www.armyants.org Notes From Underground http://www.notesfromunderground.org To subscribe to Notes from Underground, send mail to LISTSERV@LISTS.UFL.EDU with the command (paste it into the body of the message!): SUBSCRIBE NOTESFROMUNDERGROUND-L ################### From: utricularia4242 at hotmail.com (Travis Wyman) Date: Fri Jan 16 07:00:52 2004 Subject: [CP] Cool companion Actually lacewings are a different critter, their larvae are known as aphid wolves. The larvae look kind of similar to ant lions but a more narrow bodied and they can move around more normally where the ant lion can only go backwards. The tow insects might be in the same family, I am not too sure. The adult ant lion is still called an ant lion (don't ask me why) and it looks kind of like a damselfly with big eyes and long antennae. It is a very slow, clumsy flyer and is primarily nocturnal. Cheers Travis >From: Derek Glidden > >They're the larval form of the lacewing, I believe. Which also happens >to be an insect predator and quite pretty. _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Fri Jan 16 07:18:33 2004 Subject: [CP] Looking for Harold Weiner Please email me privately if you know how I can find Harold. I thought I tracked him down but never got a reply to my letter. :( Can someone please post this to the German CP forum? Thanks, Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: alexnetherton at charter.net (Alex Netherton) Date: Fri Jan 16 13:59:36 2004 Subject: [CP] Ant Lions (was Cool Companions) (Quoted from message ) "They're the larval form of the lacewing, I believe. Which also happens to be an insect predator and quite pretty" (End) Lacewings are lovely, but are an Aphid specialist, as are their larvae. The adult Ant Lion looks like a small Dragonfly, and is still called an Ant Lion. They are truly fascinating critters in all life stages. We have them here in Western NC, and any dry sandy spot near ant nests will have them; no need to order them from the Web. I would be careful about releasing the adults, as there might be a possibility of establishing a rougue population... (non-native). Alex Netherton http://alexnetherton.com ################### From: dpevans at rci.rutgers.edu (Dave Evans) Date: Fri Jan 16 18:06:22 2004 Subject: [CP] D. intermedia with pink flower Dear Ivan, Any conjecture as to why the flower on this one is pink? I have viewed thousands of _D. intermedia_ flowers and the only non-white flowers I noticed were those of _D. filiformis_ growing right next to the _D. i._. Has this plant flowered previously? Dave Evans New Jersey, USA www.Dangerousplants.com -----Original Message----- Of Ivan Snyder Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 12:19 PM Hi all, Thought some of you might like to know. I had heard of Drosera intermedia and D. rotundifolia sometimes having a pink flower, but doubted it before. I believe you now. I have D. intermedia flowering now and was surprised to see pale pink petals instead of white. This is a first for me. Yes, I'm certain it's not D. capillaris. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: JWi5770869 at aol.com (JWi5770869@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 20 09:52:58 2004 Subject: [CP] Taxonomists-How do they do it? Dear all, A very weird thought has occurred. If various individuals on this list have to travel the world seeking out 'type' specimens for taxanomic reference and study, what do those individuals who study larger fauna and flora do? I'm thinking Blue Whale and Giant Redwood size here. Surely there isn't a vast tank with a Blue Whale, pickled in formaldahyde, stuck on the shelves in a museum. If not then to what do the taxanomists refer to as the 'type' specimen and how is it stored? Regards ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 20 10:35:41 2004 Subject: [CP] Taxonomists-How do they do it? That is a lot of formaldehyde. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: walker at omnisterra.com (Rick Walker) Date: Tue Jan 20 10:46:32 2004 Subject: [CP] My apologies for service interruption Dear CP'ers, Due to some confusion with renewal of the omnisterra domain name, the CP mailing list was down for 4 days. We are back in service, with the domain renewed for the next three years. (And the domain registry now has my proper email and phone number...) It may take another day or so before the IP address gets propagated through the net. In the meantime, you can contact the CP archive web site with the numerical address: CP mailing list archives: http://occp2.ocservers.net/pipermail/cp_omnisterra.com/ CP subscription web page: http://www.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com http://216.73.101.200/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com CP Database http://www.omnisterra.com/bot/cp_home.cgi http://216.73.101.200/bot/cp_home.cgi Sorry for the interruption, -- Rick Walker ################### From: jan.schlauer at uni-tuebingen.de (jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Tue Jan 20 11:54:20 2004 Subject: [CP] Taxonomists-How do they do it? Dear John, > what do those individuals who study larger fauna and flora do? (...) > I'm thinking Blue Whale and Giant Redwood size here. Blue Whale is an item that would not be conserved in a herbarium due to systematic rather than format reasons. Anyway, there are in fact museums that do have complete or at least representative skeletons of Whales. In many vertebrates species are distinguished on the basis of skeleton comparison (the soft parts do usually not conserve well and are prone to preparation artefacts). The distinguishing features of a Giant Redwood tree can be observed already in a tiny pocket specimen containing a twig and a cone (which is quite disappointing if you consider the size of the tree itself). A herbarium specimen does not need to be a whole individual. In trees specimens usually consist of small samples with leaves and flowers or fruits, sometimes supplemented by a piece of bark. Succulents are actually more challenging to press for the herbarium than most trees (provided appropriate parts are collected) because succulents usually do not dry well. Kind regards Jan ################### From: RL7836 at earthlink.net (Ron Lane) Date: Tue Jan 20 13:42:11 2004 Subject: [CP] CP Presentation Does anyone have a canned Powerpoint presentation on CP that I could borrow, buy, or rent? I'm specifically looking for an overview to show the diversity / breadth of CP. I've had several requests from gardening societies / schools. While I would really like to do this to share info on CP and push conservation, I'm not looking forward to the effort / time required to create one from scratch. I seem to recall someone else discussing presentations in the past.... Of course I would give appropriate credit to creator(s) during presentations. (Seems like something the ICPS could have available for purchase / rent on its site to help promote conservation and sharing of knowledge....) tia Ron Lane Central/Western NJ USA Hunterdon County RL7836@earthlink.net ################### From: sclancy at uci.edu (Steve Clancy) Date: Tue Jan 20 14:01:05 2004 Subject: [CP] CP's as houseplants Greetings. I grow three species of Nepenthes in my air-conditioned office in a North-West facing window. I live in southern California. They are N. alata, N. ampullaria, and what I believe to be a N. ventricosa hybrid. The first two have been growing for about 6 mos, and have put out quite a few new pitchers and leaves, especially the N. alata. The N. ventricosa has followed me from office to office for the last 12 years or so, and had gotten so big I had to split it into three plants. It flowers regularly (male) each year and produces quite a few pitchers. Due to the air-conditioning, my office does not have high humidity. I do water them quite regularly and occasionally mist them, but that's about it. Next to a few succulents, they are the most successful office plants I've ever had. I'd grow them indoors at home, but my cats eat anything living (and non-living too!) --steve > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:20:10 -0500 > From: DougWitkowski@netscape.net > Subject: [CP] CP's as houseplants > To: Cp@omnisterra.com > Message-ID: <74893257.29A002F5.735302C3@netscape.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > I have been particularly interested in this topic as my terrarium is getting quite crowded. I have N. Khasianna, Truncata & Veitchii x Spatulata growing in the bathroom. All seem to be doing well, especially the cross. I would like to try alata and ventrata. I had a ventricosa but it wasted away and I am now trying to bring it back in the terrarium. I was suprised it did not do better as it has very thick leaves. I also had a cocinnea, that died a slow death. > > I am located in central Texas and it can get quite dry here. The house tends to run 40-50% but the bathroom runs up to 70% after a shower. It seems that the thicker leaved plants can adapt to dryer climate but they still need bright light, and the challange is not to burn them with both direct sun and low humidity. > > I'd like to hear what others experiences are with Nepenthes as house plants. Please include the location and estimated or measured air conditions. > > Doug W > -- Steve Clancy, MLS AHIP, Medical Librarian & Library Proxy Coordinator Science Library, Univ. of Calif., Irvine CA. U.S.A. 949-824-7309 * sclancy AT uci.edu * sun3.lib.uci.edu/~sclancy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, 'I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along.' You must do the thing you think you cannot do." -- Eleanor Roosevelt ################### From: ccp at vaxxine.com (Carl & Melissa Mazur) Date: Tue Jan 20 14:40:08 2004 Subject: [CP] CP Presentation Hey if anyone has any presentation material at all they'd like to share let me know, I can make them available on the ICPS website. Best Carl Mazur > -----Original Message----- > From: Cp-bounces@omnisterra.com [mailto:Cp-bounces@omnisterra.com] On > Behalf Of Ron Lane > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 4:45 PM > To: Cp@omnisterra.com > Subject: [CP] CP Presentation > > Does anyone have a canned Powerpoint presentation on CP that I could > borrow, buy, or rent? I'm specifically looking for an overview to show the > diversity / breadth of CP. > > I've had several requests from gardening societies / schools. While I > would > really like to do this to share info on CP and push conservation, I'm not > looking forward to the effort / time required to create one from scratch. > I > seem to recall someone else discussing presentations in the past.... > > Of course I would give appropriate credit to creator(s) during > presentations. > > (Seems like something the ICPS could have available for purchase / rent on > its site to help promote conservation and sharing of knowledge....) > > tia > > Ron Lane > Central/Western NJ USA > Hunterdon County > RL7836@earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com ################### From: jason_petura at hotmail.com (jason petura) Date: Tue Jan 20 15:07:00 2004 Subject: [CP] specimens Hi this is my first time writing in to this message board. The image of a pickled blue whale ..nice. But for plants 90% of the time specimen plants are pressed (dryed flattened and tagged). Then stored in large books. hope this helps out ..... _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ################### From: k4zd at juno.com (Robert L Hanrahan) Date: Tue Jan 20 18:08:40 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Book Find From the WIP Locker Hello Guys, I was doing some early spring cleaning and found in the old WIP locker a sealed box containing about a dozen copies of Don Schnell's original "CP of the USA and Canada." These may be considered collectors items today and finding these virgin copies was a real find. Having one is even better if you don't have one in your personal CP library. Anyway, rather than offering them on EBay, I wanted to give the established ICPS guys the first shot on these new 25+ year old books. I probably would get more for them on EBay, but knowing they are going to established CPN'ers is worth a few bucks to me. I also have a couple copies of Jim Miller's early 80's report called "Status of Gulf Coast CP Populations." This report in many ways is a predecessor and fully compliments his excellent recently developed video showing the most spectacular Southeastern CP's in habitat. If your interested in either of these selections, shoot me a reply at k4zd@arrl.net and I will forward you the particulars. Good Growing (as always), Bob Hanrahan ################### From: jsg16 at utah.edu (John Green) Date: Wed Jan 21 06:27:42 2004 Subject: [CP] Sarracenia hybrid ID? Glad to see the listserv is still running - my post the other day came back undeliverable... Anyway, I'd like to know more about this plant: http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp_pics/Sarr_hybrid.jpg I couldn't resist buying it at a local nursery a couple of months ago. It looks like it's got some psittacina and purpurea or maybe minor in it, but I'm hoping someone knows if it's a registered cultivar and it's name and parentage. I can't find the tag that came with it but the same company is distributing the 'Scarlet Belle' hybrid. Any help is appreciated - I'd really like to know what to call it. John Green West Hill, California http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm ################### From: la_islita_de_encanta at yahoo.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Wed Jan 21 07:12:23 2004 Subject: [CP] CP-Compatible Animals? Hi all. Terrariums/vivariums are a major interest of mine, and I'm wondering if you might be able to suggest some CP/animal combinations that would look great in a terrarium without harm coming to either party. Of course, I know the larger nepenthes would prove dangerous to virtually any small amphibian or reptile. I also know that any of the herbivores/omnivores might damage CPs, even nibbling them to death. But what about the smaller droseras that are so easy to grow in a warm terrarium? Or even some VFTs . . . aren't they usually found in the same area as carolina anoles ("chameleons"). What I'm most interested in are amphibians, particularly salamanders (need cool temps,) tree frogs, and poison dart frogs. Any input/advice on this would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Christina Anderson ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Wed Jan 21 08:04:49 2004 Subject: [CP] CP-Compatible Animals? Christina, I would think the best choice might be Heliamphora. It would be little more that a small pool for frogs and such with no lid or strong enzymes. And they like cool temperatures. Obviously, small frogs get caught in Nepenthes pitchers occasionally, but any of the tree frogs I have had would not. They would be big and strong enough to jump to the lid of the pitchers I have had. I think Steve Lawarre mentioned on the PFT Forum that he noticed a grey treefrog digested in one of his Nep pitchers. He has some 18" truncata pitchers though, which would be tougher to get out of. I think you could also use Sarracenia purpurea forms, as they would be easy to get in and out of. A recent article on treefrogs in "Reptile Magazine' showed some pics of frogs sitting on S. purpurea. Hope that helps. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA In a message dated 1/21/2004 10:11:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, la_islita_de_encanta@yahoo.com writes: > > > Hi all. > > Terrariums/vivariums are a major interest of mine, and I'm wondering if you might be able to suggest some CP/animal combinations that would look great in a terrarium without harm coming to either party. Of course, I know the larger nepenthes would prove dangerous to virtually any small amphibian or reptile. I also know that any of the herbivores/omnivores might damage CPs, even nibbling them to death. > > But what about the smaller droseras that are so easy to grow in a warm terrarium? Or even some VFTs . . . aren't they usually found in the same area as carolina anoles ("chameleons"). What I'm most interested in are amphibians, particularly salamanders (need cool temps,) tree frogs, and poison dart frogs. Any input/advice on this would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! > > Christina Anderson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.co > m ################### From: rkoshak at mythsearch.com (Rich Koshak) Date: Wed Jan 21 08:19:34 2004 Subject: [CP] Are my Nepenthes Ill? I've been growing CPs for several years now. I used to grow most of my Neps in a terrarium but a couple of the older ones have outgrowns the tank. To make room, I bought one of those shelf units with the polyvynal covering to use as a green house. The humidity in the new environment is probably fine. I can feel the humidity when I open the flap, and about every other day I run a sonic atomiser to augment the humidity. The temp also remains above 60 degrees F. For lighting, I have the shelves in front of an east facing window and I augment the sun light with one grow light suspended above each shelf on a 16 hour timer. The Nepenthes X judith finn seems to have adjusted to this new environment without problem. They are putting out nicely shaped and colored leaves and are pitchering wonderfully (though the pitchers are a little smaller now that they aren't getting as much light as they once were). The problem is with the unknown hybrid species, tentativelty identified as alata x maxima (I have posted some pictures at the following address: http://community.webshots.com/album/78809276BwvGUQ ). The new ones I bought and the ones I've taken out of the terrarium don't seem to be doing all that well. Their leaves are a much darker green then normal and the leaves are relatively thin and wavey. They have also stopped pitchering. At first I thought it was the stress of the new environment but it has been a couple of months now and there has been no change. Any ideas? -- Rich Koshak http://www.MythSearch.com ################### From: utricularia4242 at hotmail.com (Travis Wyman) Date: Wed Jan 21 08:20:09 2004 Subject: [CP] CP-Compatible Animals? Christina, Following up on what Joe said, I had a Cope's Grey Treefrog living in one of my N. ventricosa pitchers for a summer. So if you are shotting for something tropical then that might be the way to go. I imagine any of the smaller/lungless salamander species native to the Eastern and Southern US would probably do alright in a vivarium of simalr type CPs. Travis Travis H. Wyman Microbiology and Molecular Genetics Emory University twyman@emory.edu _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Wed Jan 21 08:40:23 2004 Subject: [CP] Phill Mann's CD Hey folks, Have you bought your copy of Phill Mann's CD yet? I got my copy a few weeks ago, and really enjoyed watching it. If memory serves, it's about 30 minutes long and covers many different species of Drosera (pygmy & tuberous), Utricularia, and Cephalotus. It is quite nicely done, and will store well next to your copy of Jim Miller's DVD (which I assume you've also gotten!). If you don't know him, Phill Mann is a long-time CPer in Australia, and would be a dream choice of a guide if you ever find yourself in Western Australia. It's a pleasure to have something in the library that hatched from his brain. So contact TamlinD Dawnstar if you want him to send a copy (I guess he's acting as Phill's distributor). It's a good deal. By the way, I would have told y'all my thoughts on this CD earlier, but I was travelling in peninsular Florida. Business trip, but I brought my fabulous trophy-wife along for the fun. Not much in CP to mention (U. subulata, D. brevifolia, and the weird Floridian D. capillaris), but the birding was great. (Snail kite! ooh! Scissor tailed flycatcher! ooh! Short-tailed hawk! ooh!) Also, seeing a congregation of 50 manatee at a crystal-clear spring didn't suck, either! Later Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Wed Jan 21 10:29:26 2004 Subject: [CP] CP-Compatible Animals? Christina and All, A little off topic, but for the money and what you get, I think the top frog is the White's treefrog, aka dumpy treefrog. Great demeanor, big and looks great. Petco sells full grown Indonesian ones here for $15.99. Regards, Joe Griffin \ Lincoln, NE USA In a message dated 1/21/2004 11:20:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, utricularia4242@hotmail.com writes: > > > Christina, > > Following up on what Joe said, I had a Cope's Grey Treefrog living in one of > my N. ventricosa pitchers for a summer. So if you are shotting for something > tropical then that might be the way to go. > > I imagine any of the smaller/lungless salamander species native to the > Eastern and Southern US would probably do alright in a vivarium of simalr > type CPs. > > Travis > > Travis H. Wyman > Microbiology and Molecular Genetics > Emory University > twyman@emory.edu > > _________________________________________________________________ > Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed > experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 > > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.co > m ################### From: w.a.j.noordeloos at wanadoo.nl (wouter) Date: Wed Jan 21 11:59:17 2004 Subject: [CP] Re:Sarracenia hybrid ID Hi John and Cp'ers, > Anyway, I'd like to know more about this plant: > > > http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp_pics/Sarr_hybrid.jpg > > > I couldn't resist buying it at a local nursery a couple of months ago. > It looks like it's got some psittacina and purpurea or maybe minor in > it, but I'm hoping someone knows if it's a registered cultivar and > it's name and parentage. I can't find the tag that came with it but > the same company is distributing the 'Scarlet Belle' hybrid. Any help > is appreciated - I'd really like to know what to call it. A few years ago I had some plants that look the same as your Sarracenia. I made a very nice hybrid. I crossed Sarracenia x courtii with S. x swaniana. That's explain the white spots on the back op the pitchers. When I looked to the plants on the picture I see some curve between the lid and the lip of the picture. That's from S. x courtii, I think. I'ts a shame, but I don't have this hybrid anymore. I sold the most of them and I 3 plants for myself, but they suffered from botritys, so I can't show you a picture. Take care, Wouter Noordeloos > > > John Green > West Hill, California > http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > > End of Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21 > ********************************* ################### From: ACarlson at hrsd.com (Carlson, Aaron) Date: Wed Jan 21 13:28:00 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Sarracenia hybrid ID? >>Anyway, I'd like to know more about this plant: http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp_pics/Sarr_hybrid.jpg I couldn't resist buying it at a local nursery a couple of months ago. It looks like it's got some psittacina and purpurea or maybe minor in it, but I'm hoping someone knows if it's a registered cultivar and it's name and parentage. I can't find the tag that came with it but the same company is distributing the 'Scarlet Belle' hybrid. Any help is appreciated - I'd really like to know what to call it.<< Yeah, I'd definitely say it has psitt and purp in it. I have a psitt x (purp x minor) that looks a lot like it. When I was at the UNC-Charlotte botanical garden this past winter, I saw several of Dr. Mellichamp's "Little Bug" series of cultivars. There was one that looked a lot like this also. I believe it was called 'June Bug'. Dr. Mellichamp couldn't remember the parentage off the top of his head, but agreed that psitt x (purp x minor) was as good a guess as any. I guess if the plant isn't labelled, you just never know; but psitt and purp are definitely in it, I would say. ################### From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk) Date: Wed Jan 21 16:19:06 2004 Subject: [CP] Phill Mann's CD > was travelling in peninsular Florida. Business trip, but I brought my > fabulous trophy-wife along for the fun. Not much in CP to mention (U. > subulata, D. brevifolia, and the weird Floridian D. capillaris) Hi Barry, What do you find weird about the Floridian D. cap? Cheers P ################### From: ZielinskiJ at edaw.com (Jim Zielinski) Date: Wed Jan 21 16:40:59 2004 Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden Hey, all...after all these years, I finally have my own home. Not a renter. And one of the very first projects...I want my own CP bog garden. I've seen 100 opinions on this plastic versus that liner, prefabs versus whatever...and so on. I've seen some prefabs marked down at some of the K-Marty/Wal-Marty type stores...Some builder's supply joints, too. From experience, do any of you have a major pro or con on prefabs? And if liners are preferred, it seems like once, eons ago, someone was debating this poly versus that pool liner, and I can't remember the upshot. I'm thinking, I suppose, in terms of what will last longer and require less replacement. Also, for pitchers...if I use a prefab, how far up, inch-wise, would you recommend a drainage hole (or holes??) be placed? I do have access to decent sand from a nursery (not river, unwashed, or play sand, but some form of horticultural)...so after that, it's peat, maybe some top-dressing, and off I go. I think. ha Thanks for your thoughts and replies! - jEz ################### From: mike at mjv.com (Michael Vanecek) Date: Wed Jan 21 18:05:52 2004 Subject: [CP] Borrowed Pictures? I wonder who really owns this pic: http://www.carnivorousplantstore.com/fly7.html http://www.onlyvenusflytraps.com/fly7.htm Heck - they even used the same webpage name. Cheers, Mike ################### From: stephenwd at sbcglobal.net (Stephen Davis) Date: Wed Jan 21 18:43:04 2004 Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden Jim, Glad to hear about the home and your new project. 1) In my opinion, the prefabs are fine. They are pretty tough, but don't always look the best. How long do you want this to last? most liners are going to last at least 8-10 years. 45 mill epdm is the best. It will last 20 or more years. 2) I prefer a flexible liner as you can hide the liner better, in most cases. and allow you more flexibility to make it look natural, if that is your goal. 3) If you put a hole in the liner, make it very close to the top. I believe the current consenses is no holes. If you use a flexible liner you can put an overflow pipe in it. The overflow pipe would allow you to adjust the depth of the water too. I drop the depth of the water in my bog in the winter. 4) I always suggest a drainage pipe, with a lot of holes in it(standard buy, and cheap, at home depot, osh, or lowes) that lays at the bottom, then comes up to the the surface at a corner that will allow you to drain the water out with a wet/dry vac, or something like that. I had some bad water get it in it and was glad I could take a lot of it out. I put a reducer on the end of it so the pipe coming up to the top is not so big. 5) Someone built a bog and put a bunch of 1 gallon nursery pots upside down on the bottom before they put the dirt in. It used less dirt, created a lot of space for water, yet leaves a place for plants to send down long roots between the pots if they want to. 6) Good call on the sand, but still test it to make sure it's not going to react with the acidic peat. 7) Check with people in your area on the Peat. Out here there are primarily two companies peat products on the market. One has a lot of soil components and causes some of the more sensitive plants to languish or die. Read the ingredients, sometimes they will say that it's not pure peat. 8) I would think the depth that you should keep the water is somewhat dependent on your weather. Hot and dry, I'd make it closer to the surface than cool and wet. I'll leave it up to the experts to tell you what depth. I'm still trying to figure it out. :-) What were you thinking of for top dressing? Stephen Davis www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com stephenwd@sbcglobal.net Jim Zielinski wrote: Hey, all...after all these years, I finally have my own home. Not a renter. And one of the very first projects...I want my own CP bog garden. I've seen 100 opinions on this plastic versus that liner, prefabs versus whatever...and so on. I've seen some prefabs marked down at some of the K-Marty/Wal-Marty type stores...Some builder's supply joints, too. From experience, do any of you have a major pro or con on prefabs? And if liners are preferred, it seems like once, eons ago, someone was debating this poly versus that pool liner, and I can't remember the upshot. I'm thinking, I suppose, in terms of what will last longer and require less replacement. Also, for pitchers...if I use a prefab, how far up, inch-wise, would you recommend a drainage hole (or holes??) be placed? I do have access to decent sand from a nursery (not river, unwashed, or play sand, but some form of horticultural)...so after that, it's peat, maybe some top-dressing, and off I go. I think. ha Thanks for your thoughts and replies! - jEz ################### From: goffinses at yahoo.com (Laurel Williams) Date: Wed Jan 21 19:51:59 2004 Subject: [CP] terraria; pickled whales; N. x "Gentle" Hi Christina, Black Jungle (http://www.blackjungle.com/home.htm, store in western Massachusetts) specializes in "vivaria"--terraria with both plants and animals--and sells a bunch of poison dart frogs (as well as some other amphibians/reptiles, I think?). They also sell a wide range of plants for terraria, including some nice CPs. They were at a NECPS meeting recently and one of the proprietors showed me a frog someone was coming to pick up. Extremely cool--I would love to try this myself someday. They have some great pictures of terraria and the process of assembling them on their website. Regarding the pickling of blue whales and whatnot--I did a little work at the LA Museum of Natural History and was told that they have one of the largest collections of marine mammal specimens in the world, out in some warehouse somewhere, maybe Long Beach or something. I don't think the *majority* of them are pickled, but it did sound like some of them might *have been. They weren't blue whales, probably mid-size stuff like seals, but it sounded interesting. (They also have trays and trays and trays of bird specimens, as well as freezers full of road-kills and other casualties waiting for someone who has the time to skin and stuff them; also long-term DNA samples.) Finally, I thought I had seen messages here from a month or two ago regarding N. x "Gentle", but now I can't find the posts that I recalled. Was anyone looking for one? During my visit to Florida, I visited Tropiflora and they had a bunch. They were *huge*, some were flowering, and they were on sale for $10. Needless to say, I snapped one up. Its vines are probably about a foot long, not counting the pitchers, and its flower is still going (smells gross though). I asked what its parentage was and the proprietor said he thought it was part N. alata, which I could certainly see. Barry, where did you go? I am so jealous of your snail kite and manatees. We did see the storks down at Corkscrew though. Cheers, Laurel Williams Underhill, VT (USDA Zone 4a ... sigh) > Message: 1 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:11:43 -0800 (PST) From: Christina > Anderson Subject: [CP] CP-Compatible > Animals? To: Cp@omnisterra.com Message-ID: > <20040121151143.93325.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: > text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hi all. > > > Terrariums/vivariums are a major interest of mine, and I'm wondering > if you might be able to suggest some CP/animal combinations that would > look great in a terrarium without harm coming to either party. Of > course, I know the larger nepenthes would prove dangerous to virtually > any small amphibian or reptile. I also know that any of the > herbivores/omnivores might damage CPs, even nibbling them to death. > > > But what about the smaller droseras that are so easy to grow in a warm > terrarium? Or even some VFTs . . . aren't they usually found in the > same area as carolina anoles ("chameleons"). What I'm most interested > in are amphibians, particularly salamanders (need cool temps,) tree > frogs, and poison dart frogs. Any input/advice on this would be > greatly appreciated! Thanks! > > > Christina Anderson > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: jsg16 at utah.edu (John Green) Date: Wed Jan 21 21:28:23 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Sarracenia hybrid ID? > From: "Carlson, Aaron" > > >>http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp_pics/Sarr_hybrid.jpg > > Yeah, I'd definitely say it has psitt and purp in it. I have a psitt x > (purp x minor) that looks a lot like it. When I was at the UNC-Charlotte > botanical garden this past winter, I saw several of Dr. Mellichamp's "Little > Bug" series of cultivars. There was one that looked a lot like this also. > I believe it was called 'June Bug'. Dr. Mellichamp couldn't remember the > parentage off the top of his head, but agreed that psitt x (purp x minor) > was as good a guess as any. I guess if the plant isn't labelled, you just > never know; but psitt and purp are definitely in it, I would say. BINGO! (see, that's why I like this listserv so much!) It's called 'Lady Bug.' Here's a link to another picture at UNCC: http://gardens.uncc.edu/Carnivorous_Plants/pages/Portrait-Sarracenia%20Lady%20Bug_jpg.htm It looks like the plant I have. Now I at least have a name - hopefully there will be a write-up in CPN sometime soon. Thank you! John Green West Hills, California http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm ################### From: corusc8 at hotmail.com (Joseph Kinyon) Date: Wed Jan 21 22:30:50 2004 Subject: [CP] RE CP Powerpoint Presentation & Whales Hey folks, grad school sure makes it tough to keep up a hobby , Sorting through the last 2 months of stuff. Hope you all are doing well. Regarding a CP PowerPoint Presentation: While I see an average of 20 hours of PowerPoint Presentations and make at least one a week-- including some for CP even-- I loathe them. If you want a good couple of reasons for loathing PowerPoint see Edward Tufte's essay on the Cognitive Process of PowerPoint. Because I am really impatient with PowerPoint presentations and have no patience for bad ones, I have been appreciatively told by others that I make pretty good ones. If I was to help you out I'd ask you to donate mula to the ICPS. I would also need the permission of many CP website owners to use their photos (fully credited of course.). A few questions: 1. I need a time frame. How long a presentation? What other presentations are there before and after it? What time of day? 2. A general outline of what you need. (Canned PowerPoint takes the human/e element out the plant centered theme.) 3. Is there a species focus or any special connections to make to the place you are presenting in or near--like live plants or herbariums? 4. What about the audience, things to assume and things to aspire to with them. 5. Your delivery style. If you are not up to making one yourself, does that mean you are not up to practicing either? Do you print hand outs? Are you a slide burner (you run a forward button like a gas pedal on the autobahn)? 6. What is your operating system and computer type. 7. What is the resolution of the projector you will be using. 8. Do you need maps to tell the story? 9. Are you charging or receiving a stipend for your presentation? 10. When did you need it by? (yeah, I know that is past tense) You can contact me off list regarding this Ron. Regarding large specimens: What you use to type the specimen is what you store. So if seed flowers and leaves are it, then no need making an herbarium sheet for that Sequoia gigantea (hee hee). At the California Academy of Sciences, we store/d a full skeleton of a blue whale. Getting a whale skeleton into a state for storage is very difficult, almost as difficult as building a pool to hold Formalin through an earthquake would be. You have to bury the flensed and cleaned whale for several years underground. No one has a beetle tank that big. Recently skeletons like this were used to identify a new species in the Fin Whales. I installed a blue whale skeleton for public viewing that had been buried too long under Baker beach in San Francisco. Its advanced decay made it a worthless type specimen but a reasonable teaching skeleton for the public. For a while it was stored under several truck loads of horse manure to finish the bone cleaning process. Luckily that smells better than rotting whale. As others have said skeletons are the main distinguishing body part that can be preserved for vertebrates. Birds are just the opposite. The guts are removed and the skin and skeleton are stored with the feathers on. Succulents, fungal fruiting bodies, and aquatic plants are difficult to store. The recent discovery of several un-catchable cephalopods in deep sea environments has raised the question of whether you have to have a specimen in hand or can you rely on recorded material for the type? Ok, back to the books, no more rambling procrastinations. Happy growing Joe Ron Lane Central/Western NJ USA Hunterdon County RL7836@earthlink.net ################### From: mtalt at hort.net (Marge Talt) Date: Wed Jan 21 22:52:41 2004 Subject: [CP] sand-peat reaction was: Brand New Bog Garden > From: Stephen Davis > 6) Good call on the sand, but still test it to make sure it's not going to react with the acidic peat. ---------- What kind of reaction would sand have with peat? Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland mtalt@hort.net Editor: Gardening in Shade ----------------------------------------------- Current Article: Spring Peepers http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening ------------------------------------------------ Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html ------------------------------------------------ All Suite101.com garden topics : http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635 ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Thu Jan 22 07:17:47 2004 Subject: [CP] Phill Mann's CD On Jan 21, 2004, at 7:18 PM, Philip Semanchuk wrote: >> was travelling in peninsular Florida. Business trip, but I brought my >> fabulous trophy-wife along for the fun. Not much in CP to mention (U. >> subulata, D. brevifolia, and the weird Floridian D. capillaris) > > Hi Barry, > What do you find weird about the Floridian D. cap? My guess is the variation in size, shape, color and habit. I've started a couple of threads on the list about Florida's "weird" D.caps before and had a few email conversations with Barry about same. At least a couple other people I've discussed this with in the past (Bob McMorris being a big proponent) have the opinion that Florida's population could either be speciating (is that the word?) or is made up of generations-in/crossbred hybrids with D.intermedia and/or D.brevifolia resulting in swarms that have characteristics of any/all of those species. I have a smallish photo gallery showing off some of the unreasonable (to someone trying to ID them) variations that I've seen in D.capillaris at: http://gallery.illusionary.com/album10 and this particular photo from another gallery: http://gallery.illusionary.com/album13/p5182329 take a look for yourself, and see what I mean. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: bioexp at juno.com (Ivan Snyder) Date: Thu Jan 22 07:34:48 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: D. intermedia with pink flower Hi Philip and Dave, The plant flowered before and I did not notice any pink. I also have a sibling in an adjacent pot from the same location, Roraime Venezuela, which flowered just before this one and had typical pure white flowers. I cannot explain this anomaly, but I'm sure it is not a Mendelian trait. Donald Schnell's book wisely states, "petals usually white, with occasional pink tinge". I previously felt the pink petalled plants were misidentified D. capillaris. Wish I could get a photo, but I don't have the right camera for that. Although, I do have a book showing a D. rotundifolia with a pink flower. I thought this was due to a photographic artifact. This may be the same phenomena as my pink flowered D. intermedia. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Thu Jan 22 07:40:15 2004 Subject: [CP] Florida notes Hey Phil, In the non-Florida portion of its USA range, Drosera capillaris is a fairly non-plastic species it is a nice little rosetted sundew with leaves prostrate to the ground, shortish petioles, etc. This is the plant often photographed and shown as "normal" D. capillaris. But in Florida, the plant becomes very plastic. It can mimic Drosera brevifolia or Drosera intermedia----mimics of the latter can be amazingly effective. I've become quite resigned in Florida to saying, "Oh, a sundew of some kind!" until I pull off a leaf and look at the details of the stipules. >> was travelling in peninsular Florida. Business trip, but I brought my >> fabulous trophy-wife along for the fun. Not much in CP to mention (U. >> subulata, D. brevifolia, and the weird Floridian D. capillaris) >Hi Barry, >What do you find weird about the Floridian D. cap? >Cheers >P >Barry, where did you go? I am so jealous of your snail kite and manatees. >We did see the storks down at Corkscrew though. Hey Laurel, We were staying at Archbold Biological Station for most nights, but got out to Lake Kissimmee, Lake Okeechobee, Kissimmee River, Myakka River, Honeymoon Island, Three Lakes, Blue Spring, and interstitial locations. Corkscrew is lovely---been there in the past, didn't go this time. Barry ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Thu Jan 22 07:42:23 2004 Subject: [CP] Powerpoints I have to echo other sentiments on this listserve about sharing ppts. I make powerpoints a lot, since the culture of my business uses them to communicate. Unfortunately, there is a lot of abuse of powerpoints. They encourage bad presentations. Furthermore, sharing ppts is REALLY hard, since they have to be documented so extremely heavily in order for the transfer of the content to be useful. Later! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Sundew1802 at aol.com (Sundew1802@aol.com) Date: Thu Jan 22 07:52:16 2004 Subject: [CP] Barry's weird FL D capillaris ################### From: MHowlett at cp4.hctx.net (Howlett, Mike (Commissioner Pct.4)) Date: Thu Jan 22 10:21:22 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: CP Terraria Laurel and Christina - As a herper who has only gained an EXTREME appreciation for carnivorous plants in the last few years, I can offer a few suggestions. Take them as you will... a couple of your main concerns with a combination amphibian/CP terrarium will be 1), the amphibians trodding on your plants, and 2), the potential buildup of nitrogen in the soil from the amphibian waste. Since there is no way to eliminate either of these conditions, you have to allow for a suitable control method. As for the animals walking all over the plants, my best suggestions would be to be selective about the number and size of amphibians and which CPs you place in the setup. Obviously, the larger the terrarium, the better; it allows more space for the animals to utilize, and lessens the amount of potential damage they will do to the plants! Flytraps, prostrate sundews (D. capillaris is my favorite for temperate setups), and prostrate pitcher plants like S. purpurea, S. x wrigleyana and S. psittacina do nicely for setups with North American amphibians. As for amphibians, I especially like the Green and Gray Treefrogs. For a tropical setup, you might try Nepenthes gracilis or a similar species. I have hung them up in a small hanging basket inside an upright terrarium, or you can plant them in a hanging piece of wood (similar to what growers of staghorn ferns or orchids often do) attached to the side of the terrarium. As for tropical frogs for your terrarium, my supplier of choice is Vivarium Concepts (www.vivariumconcepts.com) in Fort Worth, Texas. They have been a vendor at the local Houston area reptile expos, and feature only CAPTIVE BORN (read quality) Poison Dart Frogs, Red-eyed Treefrogs, Tiger Leg Leaf Frogs, etc. Talk to Cindy Dicken at Vivarium Concepts; she is a wealth of information on amphibs! The nitrogen issue is a tough one. If you can get a terrarium with a drain hole in the bottom, it makes the job easier. The alternative is to run a piece of aquarium tubing from the bottom of the tank up one corner and over the back. Then place your soil over the tubing. That way you can siphon out the (REALLY) nasty nitrogen-rich water at the bottom of the terrarium from time to time. Hope this helps, and e-mail me off-list at the address below if I can help further! Regards, Mike Howlett Houston Herp Supply www.houstonherp.com 281-433-3286 houstonherp@aol.com To: Cp@omnisterra.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: Cp@omnisterra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list Reply-To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group List-Id: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hi Christina, Black Jungle (http://www.blackjungle.com/home.htm, store in western Massachusetts) specializes in "vivaria"--terraria with both plants and animals--and sells a bunch of poison dart frogs (as well as some other amphibians/reptiles, I think?). They also sell a wide range of plants for terraria, including some nice CPs. They were at a NECPS meeting recently and one of the proprietors showed me a frog someone was coming to pick up. Extremely cool--I would love to try this myself someday. They have some great pictures of terraria and the process of assembling them on their website. Regarding the pickling of blue whales and whatnot--I did a little work at the LA Museum of Natural History and was told that they have one of the largest collections of marine mammal specimens in the world, out in some warehouse somewhere, maybe Long Beach or something. I don't think the *majority* of them are pickled, but it did sound like some of them might have been. They weren't blue whales, probably mid-size stuff like seals, but it sounded interesting. (They also have trays and trays and trays of bird specimens, as well as freezers full of road-kills and other casualties waiting for someone who has the time to skin and stuff them; also long-term DNA samples.) Finally, I thought I had seen messages here from a month or two ago regarding N. x "Gentle", but now I can't find the posts that I recalled. Was anyone looking for one? During my visit to Florida, I visited Tropiflora and they had a bunch. They were *huge*, some were flowering, and they were on sale for $10. Needless to say, I snapped one up. Its vines are probably about a foot long, not counting the pitchers, and its flower is still going (smells gross though). I asked what its parentage was and the proprietor said he thought it was part N. alata, which I could certainly see. Barry, where did you go? I am so jealous of your snail kite and manatees. We did see the storks down at Corkscrew though. Cheers, Laurel Williams Underhill, VT (USDA Zone 4a ... sigh) > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:11:43 -0800 (PST) > From: Christina Anderson > Subject: [CP] CP-Compatible Animals? > To: Cp@omnisterra.com > Message-ID: <20040121151143.93325.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hi all. > > Terrariums/vivariums are a major interest of mine, and I'm wondering if you might be able to > suggest some CP/animal combinations that would look great in a terrarium without harm coming to > either party. Of course, I know the larger nepenthes would prove dangerous to virtually any > small amphibian or reptile. I also know that any of the herbivores/omnivores might damage CPs, > even nibbling them to death. > > But what about the smaller droseras that are so easy to grow in a warm terrarium? Or even some > VFTs . . . aren't they usually found in the same area as carolina anoles ("chameleons"). What > I'm most interested in are amphibians, particularly salamanders (need cool temps,) tree frogs, > and poison dart frogs. Any input/advice on this would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! > > Christina Anderson > ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Thu Jan 22 10:43:27 2004 Subject: [CP] D. capillaris in Florida Hey Folks, Now that I reopened the D. capillaris in Florida can-of-worms, I do want to note that I am spouting nothing new---conversations with Bob McMorris and Derek Glidden are what really opened my eyes to the weirdness of the Florida Drosera capillaris. I don't know what is going on with these plants---I suspect that the theories posited by Bob and Derek may one or both be correct, i.e. that we're seeing a speciation gradient, perhaps because of hybridization? Or perhaps Drosera capillaris is primarily a tropical species that has survived Floridian oceanic inundations on the Lake Wales Ridge, and the populations on the mainland are merely genetically less-diverse selections that have pioneered other areas? Who knows---this would be a really cool PhD dissertation, doing some genetic work on the plants in Florida. I mean, how much more ideal can you make it---an easily grown species, charismatic, and in a geographic area that is very accessible. Any takers? Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: stephenwd at sbcglobal.net (Stephen Davis) Date: Thu Jan 22 11:18:01 2004 Subject: [CP]D. capillaris in florida (Phill Mann's CD) Amazing photos! Thanks for posting them. When I started this hobby I had a very short list of plants I could identify reliably. As time went on I was proud to add to this list. As more time has gone on I have started to subtract from this list. I can now safely say that I can usually identify D. capensis, and D. filiformis. After that I'm going to just fall back on Barry's naming system (I think it was his) of "D. red rossetted thing." Simple. Stephen Davis www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com At 07:17 AM 1/22/2004, you wrote: >On Jan 21, 2004, at 7:18 PM, Philip Semanchuk wrote: > >>>was travelling in peninsular Florida. Business trip, but I brought my >>>fabulous trophy-wife along for the fun. Not much in CP to mention (U. >>>subulata, D. brevifolia, and the weird Floridian D. capillaris) >> >>Hi Barry, >>What do you find weird about the Floridian D. cap? > >My guess is the variation in size, shape, color and habit. I've started a >couple of threads on the list about Florida's "weird" D.caps before and >had a few email conversations with Barry about same. At least a couple >other people I've discussed this with in the past (Bob McMorris being a >big proponent) have the opinion that Florida's population could either be >speciating (is that the word?) or is made up of generations-in/crossbred >hybrids with D.intermedia and/or D.brevifolia resulting in swarms that >have characteristics of any/all of those species. > >I have a smallish photo gallery showing off some of the unreasonable (to >someone trying to ID them) variations that I've seen in D.capillaris at: > >http://gallery.illusionary.com/album10 > >and this particular photo from another gallery: > >http://gallery.illusionary.com/album13/p5182329 > >take a look for yourself, and see what I mean. > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >"We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom >same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ >in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ >life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- >doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould > > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com Stephen W. Davis Primary: 408-229-2264 Mobile: 650-520-9496 Email: stephenwd@sbcglobal.net www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Thu Jan 22 11:30:11 2004 Subject: [CP] D. capillaris in Florida On Jan 22, 2004, at 1:43 PM, Barry A. Rice wrote: > Who knows---this would be a really cool PhD dissertation, doing some > genetic work on the plants in Florida. I mean, how much more ideal can > you > make it---an easily grown species, charismatic, and in a geographic > area > that is very accessible. Any takers? First I'd need to get the four-year degree in botany... :) But it is something I've become more and more interested in doing, and that's exactly one of the things I'd love to do at some point if I go through with the re-education. (and "easily-grown" is an understatement. I think D.capillaris around here easily outstrips U.subulata for ubiquitousness.) If anyone does want to do legitimate research, (before I can get around to trying for the Ph.D myself) I'd be happy to point to some of the locations that those photos have come from. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Thu Jan 22 11:45:24 2004 Subject: [CP]D. capillaris in florida (Phill Mann's CD) On Jan 22, 2004, at 2:17 PM, Stephen Davis wrote: > Amazing photos! Thanks for posting them. No worries! Thanks! > When I started this hobby I had a very short list of plants I could > identify reliably. As time went on I was proud to add to this list. As > more time has gone on I have started to subtract from this list. I can > now safely say that I can usually identify D. capensis, and D. > filiformis. After that I'm going to just fall back on Barry's naming > system (I think it was his) of "D. red rossetted thing." Heh. My own personal rule for Florida is "It's D.capillaris unless you can prove otherwise." And sometimes it is really hard to do so. (One of these days I'll see D.capillaris from up north somewhere and be totally confused as to what it is...) The variations in this species are really fascinating. It's also interesting that you can pretty much reliably find the same types of variations in the same locations year after year. The sad thing is that, even as ubiquitous as this species is, in the short time I've grown interested in studying them, a good half-dozen nice sites have been turned into subdivisions. Growth in central Florida (and Florida in general, I'm sure) is totally out of control and ruining our native habitats so quickly it's making my head spin. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: cwasson at cisco.com (Craig Wasson (cwasson)) Date: Thu Jan 22 12:49:45 2004 Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden Jim and the group; Having just built my first bog last year - I have a few suggestions. If you have rocky soil you might go with the plastic sheets. The liner is very stiff and you need a level hole to put it in. If you run into a big huge rock with the plastic sheet method you just have a shallow spot. I used the preformed shell and it took work with a sledge hammer and pick to get it in. Here in Virginia it rains a LOT. I put a hole in the side a few inches down, but made it a watertight fit for the flexible drain hose I ran to the bottom. By adjusting the level of the top of this hose I can adjust the effective level of the hole easily. An added advantage is it drains from the bottom - providing a constant flushing action with these torrential rains we get. The flushing action seems good enough that I decided to put a couple of hoses from my public-water-utility-fed drip irrigation system into the bog so it does not go dry between rain storms when I'm away. So far no ill effects from city water. When it's already full the drip system just flushes it some more... I used pearlite - not sand. It took weeks to get it to quit floating! And until the moss took over the top it kept splashing out and all over the low growers. Next time I'll use sand. I topped it with some live sphagnum from a spring behind my vacation house... That moss really grows tall and fast and keeps burying my low-growers and even S. Purp. Some sphagnum seems to stay lower and now I'm looking to substitute for the lower-growing moss I discovered in some of my indoor pots. Be sure your sprinkler does not hit the bog... all my tall flava got filled with water and/or knocked over before I adjusted my sprinkler system. Make it much, much bigger than you think it should be. Took me about 1 month to fill mine up and I hate to have to quit getting new plants. I'm already planning for a 2nd bigger bog here and a 3rd at the vacation home. By the way - here at my house we've had lots of days lately where the high was below 20 and the low was in single digits. I built a double-insulated cold frame and so far the lowest temp recorded under it (Radio Shack wireless thermometer) is 25. It has pretty consistently been between 31 and 36 even on nights into the low teens. So I think there is a good chance even the VFT will survive. Not so sure about the d. capensis... I left a few sub-tropicals in there just to see what happens. Good luck! Craig >-----Original Message----- >From: Cp-bounces@omnisterra.com >[mailto:Cp-bounces@omnisterra.com] On Behalf Of Jim Zielinski >Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:40 PM >To: Cp@omnisterra.com >Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden > > >Hey, all...after all these years, I finally have my own home. >Not a renter. > >And one of the very first projects...I want my own CP bog garden. > >I've seen 100 opinions on this plastic versus that liner, >prefabs versus whatever...and so on. > >I've seen some prefabs marked down at some of the >K-Marty/Wal-Marty type stores...Some builder's supply joints, >too. From experience, do any of you have a major pro or con >on prefabs? > >And if liners are preferred, it seems like once, eons ago, >someone was debating this poly versus that pool liner, and I >can't remember the upshot. I'm thinking, I suppose, in terms >of what will last longer and require less replacement. > >Also, for pitchers...if I use a prefab, how far up, inch-wise, >would you recommend a drainage hole (or holes??) be placed? > >I do have access to decent sand from a nursery (not river, >unwashed, or play sand, but some form of horticultural)...so >after that, it's peat, maybe some top-dressing, and off I go. > >I think. ha > >Thanks for your thoughts and replies! > >- jEz > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_>omnisterra.com > ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Thu Jan 22 13:45:17 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Drosera capillaris plasticity Hi Barry, Bob, Derek (and all), I believe the plasticity of form in Drosera capillaris is not just in the Florida range, and not just limited to D. intermedia and D. brevifolia. I have been cultivating many forms of this species from various stations, and I note that in some forms, there seems to be an evident involvement with D. rotundifolia as well. D. capillaris received from Phill Sheridan (thanks Phill) behave in an odd way for D. capillaris. With the onset of cold weather and short days, this plant forms a sort of loose hibernacula, and stops growing completely. The "hibernacula" is not nearly as pronounced as in the true temperate species of Drosera, but it is predictable and unmistakable. This contrasts markedly with the more typical growth patterns of the more Southern forms of the species, where dormancy (if it occurs) is in the hot summer months. Ivan, have you made the cross between D. capillaris and D. rotundifolia? It is my belief, based on the visual presentation and behavior of these plants that there is good evidence to support a publication of these different forms at least at varietal level. Depending on the range of the long arm Southern form found by Bob, this form might qualify as a sub-species at least - (see Ivan's Snyder's commendable article in the June 2003 CPN regarding this fertile example). I would be very interested in learning from Listserve members where the ranges of D. capillaris, D. brevifolia and D. rotundifolia are sympatric. I want to visit these populations and at least herborize place such examples where they may be reviewed. If anyone can assist with learning where the populations overlap, I would be grateful. If you have seen D. capillaris along with any other Drosera species, please let me know. We don't have any huge number of Drosera species here in the U.S., and I am surprised no botanists have pursued these evident differences which have been discussed for so many years. A concerted effort might add to the list of U.S. forms of Drosera! I am willing to do the legwork if I can learn where the populations are to be found. I doubt that I will have the time to publish on my own, but collection and placement within a herbarium would open the door for future researchers to review. Thanks for any potential help and interest in this project. Yours, William Dawnstar __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Thu Jan 22 14:22:31 2004 Subject: [CP] Drosera capillaris plasticity > I would be very interested in learning from Listserve > members where the ranges of D. capillaris, D. > brevifolia and D. rotundifolia are sympatric. I want > to visit these populations and at least herborize > place such examples where they may be reviewed. If > anyone can assist with learning where the populations > overlap, I would be grateful. If you have seen D. > capillaris along with any other Drosera species, > please let me know. Hey William, I've seen them growing together in coastal South Carolina---at a military base I don't recall right now---and at the southern tip of the Lake Wales Ridge in Florida, i.e. Archbold Biological Station. Oh yeah, also near the University of Florida (or is it Florida State U? Derek would know), near Orlando. Big plants there, but maybe killed by dozers by now. I'm sure I've seen them many other times, too, but just didn't realize what they were----they can pass for tiny D. capillaris easy. B ################### From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk) Date: Thu Jan 22 17:34:33 2004 Subject: [CP] Barry's weird FL D capillaris Sundew1802@aol.com wrote: > As Derek > suggested, I think the FL populations does have ingression of D > intermedia. I think the same scenario that Don Schnell described for > D anglica in Michigan may apply here. This is the case where D x > anglica the hybrid, became D anglica the species. We had a long > discussion on this forum about this some time ago(almost as heated as > the famous"squirrel wars") I havd started to look at D capillaris in > earnest to make some sense out of all the "weird" forms. We may have > more than one new form invovled. I do feel that this is primarily a > FL phenomenon, but may extend farther north. I know of the D > intermedia x capillaris that were found in Virginia(?), and I have > found D capillaris x brevifolia here in central FL and also in the > panhandle. I have only seen one site for D intermedia here in Pasco > Co FL.(which has since been destroyed). If anyone knows of another > valid site in cent FL I would like to hear about it. Comments are > welcome. Is there any reason that Drosera would not hybridize as readily as Sarracenia? I often find Sarr. hybrids in the wild where there's multiple species growing in the same place. I find this so frequently that I assume that all Sarracenia that I see growing in mixed populations probably have a bit of their neighbors' DNA, even if it doesn't express itself obviously. Some of Derek's photos do look like strange D. caps indeed. FWIW, there's a picture of a more ordinary Florida panhandle D. capillaris about halfway down on this page: http://semanchuk.com/TripReports/PaddlesSandWind/ Last but not least, here's an off-topic set of links to what NASA and information theorist Edward Tufte say: Powerpoint makes you sound stupid. http://snipurl.com/40ar Bye all Philip (more of a plain-text kind of guy) ################### From: meadow at bealenet.com (meadow@bealenet.com) Date: Thu Jan 22 17:37:55 2004 Subject: [CP] D. capillaris Hi Folks: Regarding Tamlin's comments on weak hibernacula formation in D. capillaris he received from us I can tell you that he received Virginia plants. We are at the northern limit for this species (we also discovered a population in southern Maryland years ago, published in Castanea, that has since been wiped out) and our plants have tight leaves in the center which look somewhat like a weak hibernacula. In Virginia, both D. capillaris and D. brevifolia can occur together. All our sundew species are rare but one Drosera brevifolia site can be found after a good days field work in southern Virginia. Drosera capillaris is much rarer since it prefers a moister habitat and those kind of seeps have almost been wiped out. Drosera rotundifolia co-occured with D. capillaris and D. intermedia at one site in southern Virginia but that site was drained several decades ago. Drosera rotundifolia has quite different habitat requirements from D. capillaris and D. brevifolia so it would be very unlikely to find all three growing together. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Meadowview http://www.bealenet.com ################### From: dpevans at rci.rutgers.edu (Dave Evans) Date: Thu Jan 22 20:04:48 2004 Subject: [CP] D. capillaris Dear Phil, > Drosera rotundifolia has quite different habitat requirements from D. > capillaris and D. brevifolia so it would be very unlikely to find all > three growing together. > > Phil Sheridan Thomas Hayes and I found _D. rotundifolia_ growing in Bloomsburg, PA. The plants there were not behaving like those I see in the NJ Pine Barrens. In Jersey the plants prefer shady and very damp, but not wet soil. Often they are growing on _Sphagnum_ hummocks. In Bloomsburg, _D. rotundifolia_ was growing in full sun all over the location in wetter, peatier soil, more like _D. capillaris_... I was thinking the difference could be related to the heat, since it is cooler in PA, I thought that might be allowing the sundews to grow more robustly in the sun. Whereas, in Jersey, the _D. rotundifolia_ tend to become fried looking, if not actually dead looking by the end of August. Dave Evans New Jersey, USA www.Dangerousplants.com ################### From: insecttrap at hotmail.com (Michael Manna) Date: Thu Jan 22 20:08:29 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Drosera capillaris plasticity Hi all, Some comments. It would be good of someone to tackle the task of a Ph.D. on the plasticity of D. capillaris. It would be very interesting, just like Jennifer Richards work on U. foliosa and purpurea. Different subject, yet very eye-opening. I can say that I have seen all shapes and sizes of it here in S. FL with and without D. brevifolia present, but that is not to say that it never was since there has been development down here and hydrologic change. I personally have never seen the formation of a 'hibernaculum' on D. capillaris in the wild down here. The only time that I have ever seen something that comes close is when a plant is in transplant shock from its original location to my yard. It is true that brevifolia likes it alittle drier but that does not mean some capillaris will be present as well. You can find D. capillaris and brevifolia growing in the same place all over C. FL. I have recently seen both in Jonathan Dickinson State Park (S. FL), and Three Lakes Wildlife Manag. Area. Across the highway, many forms of D. capillaris was growing on a bank that was sopping wet. It would be informative to here about if D. capillaris exibits plasticity in Cent. and S. Am. and if it hybridizes with species down there. I do not know and should look it up, but also how related are D. cap, brev, int, and rot? Is it possible that capillaris is more ancestral since it shows a large range of variability and has a large distribution. Is it possible that brevifolia is a species evolved from capillaris adapting to a 'slightly' drier habitat, and intermedia to a wetter. Since I have not compared their floral arrangements, I am going out on a limb. But just a thought. PS. for those interested, P. caeruela and pumila are in full bloom down here in S. FL. I also saw P. ionantha last weekend in Apalachicola Natl. Forest starting to bloom. Gorgeous flowers, unfortunately the camera malfunctioned. Good thread btw. Michael >From: TamlinD Dawnstar >Reply-To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group >To: Cp@omnisterra.com >Subject: [CP] Re: Drosera capillaris plasticity >Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:44:49 -0800 (PST) > >Hi Barry, Bob, Derek (and all), > >I believe the plasticity of form in Drosera capillaris >is not just in the Florida range, and not just limited >to D. intermedia and D. brevifolia. I have been >cultivating many forms of this species from various >stations, and I note that in some forms, there seems >to be an evident involvement with D. rotundifolia as >well. > >D. capillaris received from Phill Sheridan (thanks >Phill) behave in an odd way for D. capillaris. With >the onset of cold weather and short days, this plant >forms a sort of loose hibernacula, and stops growing >completely. The "hibernacula" is not nearly as >pronounced as in the true temperate species of >Drosera, but it is predictable and unmistakable. This >contrasts markedly with the more typical growth >patterns of the more Southern forms of the species, >where dormancy (if it occurs) is in the hot summer >months. > >Ivan, have you made the cross between D. capillaris >and D. rotundifolia? > >It is my belief, based on the visual presentation and >behavior of these plants that there is good evidence >to support a publication of these different forms at >least at varietal level. Depending on the range of >the long arm Southern form found by Bob, this form >might qualify as a sub-species at least - (see Ivan's >Snyder's commendable article in the June 2003 CPN >regarding this fertile example). > >I would be very interested in learning from Listserve >members where the ranges of D. capillaris, D. >brevifolia and D. rotundifolia are sympatric. I want >to visit these populations and at least herborize >place such examples where they may be reviewed. If >anyone can assist with learning where the populations >overlap, I would be grateful. If you have seen D. >capillaris along with any other Drosera species, >please let me know. > >We don't have any huge number of Drosera species here >in the U.S., and I am surprised no botanists have >pursued these evident differences which have been >discussed for so many years. A concerted effort might >add to the list of U.S. forms of Drosera! I am >willing to do the legwork if I can learn where the >populations are to be found. > >I doubt that I will have the time to publish on my >own, but collection and placement within a herbarium >would open the door for future researchers to review. > >Thanks for any potential help and interest in this >project. > >Yours, > >William Dawnstar > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! >http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. http://wine.msn.com/ ################### From: insecttrap at hotmail.com (Michael Manna) Date: Thu Jan 22 20:39:52 2004 Subject: [CP] D. capillaris in Florida All, Sorry, I forgot this last note. I do not know if it has been done. But someone should do an experiment with D. capillaris and its various forms. And I am not talking backyard chemistry... threw it in a pot and it did this for me kind of experiment, because I personally need data and replicates. Someone should send seed or plants of some different forms of D. capillaris from a few selected sites in C. FL. and S. FL and send them to someone up north like Phil Sheridan, vice versa, grow them, and observe. I would be willing to provide D. capillaris from S. FL. It would be interesting to see if each form is true to seed. Or if the plants from seed or sent plants will morph to the climate. Sounds like an instant CPN publication, or better yet, a Masters thesis. Add a little genetic work, actually a lot, and presto, Ph.D. Michael Since so many like to add little quotes under their names to bombard us with their views, I figure I would like to write something I just made up: "Run, Run while you can, Since S. minor can't from the cattle!!" Michael Manna, 22 Jan 04 Maybe I should have kept that in my head. I just thought of this too! To those who address Drosera, you know who you are, as "little red rosetty things", I have this to say: Keep growing your "gaudy, pe#%s mobiles"!!! HeHe. Ooohh, I think I had too much ice cream. >From: "Barry A. Rice" >Reply-To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group >To: cp list >Subject: [CP] D. capillaris in Florida >Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:43:21 -0800 (PST) > > >Hey Folks, > >Now that I reopened the D. capillaris in Florida can-of-worms, I do want >to note that I am spouting nothing new---conversations with Bob McMorris >and Derek Glidden are what really opened my eyes to the weirdness of the >Florida Drosera capillaris. > >I don't know what is going on with these plants---I suspect that the >theories posited by Bob and Derek may one or both be correct, i.e. that >we're seeing a speciation gradient, perhaps because of hybridization? Or >perhaps Drosera capillaris is primarily a tropical species that has >survived Floridian oceanic inundations on the Lake Wales Ridge, and the >populations on the mainland are merely genetically less-diverse selections >that have pioneered other areas? > >Who knows---this would be a really cool PhD dissertation, doing some >genetic work on the plants in Florida. I mean, how much more ideal can you >make it---an easily grown species, charismatic, and in a geographic area >that is very accessible. Any takers? > >Barry > >------------------------ >Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. >Carnivorous Plant Newsletter >Conservation Coeditor >barry@carnivorousplants.org >http://www.carnivorousplants.org > > > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Thu Jan 22 20:50:51 2004 Subject: [CP] Drosera capillaris plasticity On Jan 22, 2004, at 5:22 PM, Barry A. Rice wrote: > > Oh yeah, also near the University of Florida (or is it Florida State U? > Derek would know), near Orlando. Big plants there, but maybe killed by > dozers by now. University of Central Florida (I assume you mean the giant D.brefivolia you spotted there?) I haven't spotted them myself, but I know where you described them to be and "there" is still there so far. Hmm... I have no plans for Saturday yet and it's supposed to be a gorgeous day... In central florida I've seen D.capillaris and D.brevifolia in the same neighborhood, but almost always D.capillaris where it's wet and mucky "down lower" and D.brevifolia "up higher" where it's sandy and drier so they're only occasionally growing mixed together. There are many places in the panhandle where D.capillaris grows in the same area, usually mixed right in with, D.filliformis v. tracyii, D.brevifolia and D.intermedia. Oh, and here's another lovely D.capillaris variation I saw in the panhandle: http://gallery.illusionary.com/album11/p5162289 The caps growing in this location were also massive - some had to be a good 6" across - and the most amazing brilliant deep red that just doesn't come through in the photos: http://gallery.illusionary.com/album11/p5162295 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: dpevans at rci.rutgers.edu (Dave Evans) Date: Thu Jan 22 21:01:49 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Drosera capillaris plasticity Dear Michael, How about _D. roraimae_? It looks like _D. capillaris_, but has a stem... Of course, I don't know much about the flowers so there is plenty of room for error in my associating the two. Along those lines: Perhaps those long-arm caps are more or less left over from when _D. capillaris_ and _D. intermedia_ were still the same thing. They might not be hybrids, but genetic leftovers that have done a bit of evolving on their own, but not two the point of where they are easily separated as a species from the other forms of _D. capillaris_. Now that it is becoming well known that something interesting is going with _D. capillaris_ in Florida and probably more areas, I think we will continue to learn things since we are looking at _D. capillaris_ with a renewed fascination. Cool! :) Dave Evans New Jersey, USA www.Dangerousplants.com -----Original Message----- Of Michael Manna It would be informative to here about if D. capillaris exibits plasticity in Cent. and S. Am. and if it hybridizes with species down there. I do not know and should look it up, but also how related are D. cap, brev, int, and rot? Is it possible that capillaris is more ancestral since it shows a large range of variability and has a large distribution. Is it possible that brevifolia is a species evolved from capillaris adapting to a 'slightly' drier habitat, and intermedia to a wetter. Since I have not compared their floral arrangements, I am going out on a limb. But just a thought. ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Thu Jan 22 21:03:54 2004 Subject: [CP] Barry's weird FL D capillaris On Jan 22, 2004, at 8:34 PM, Philip Semanchuk wrote: > Is there any reason that Drosera would not hybridize as readily as > Sarracenia? I often find Sarr. hybrids in the wild where there's > multiple species growing in the same place. I find this so frequently > that I assume that all Sarracenia that I see growing in mixed > populations probably have a bit of their neighbors' DNA, even if it > doesn't express itself obviously. Most Drosera flowers, at least the ones that live in Florida, only open for a very short period in the morning, and usually different species bloom at slightly different times. There's also a big height difference - D.brevifolia is usually only a couple of inches, D.intermedia and D.capillaris are a generally few inches up with intermedia probably slightly higher on average, and D.filliformis can easily hit 12" or more to the height of where the flower opens. Any cross-pollinators would have to be very ambitious. (I'm no expert, but I suspect with something as specific as a ~1-2cm flower that's only open for a couple of hours first thing in the morning and only a few inches higher than the sticky tendrils trying to eat you (or often among them as with the D.filliformis I grow), the pollinators would be pretty darn specific and even a few inches height difference could be too much of a difference.) I've also noticed that pretty much all the Florida species I grow self-pollinate readily. So it's a good guess if any of them even have regular pollinators. There are definitely a few naturally occuring hybrids in North America though. Schnell covers them pretty well in his latest edition. There are almost certainly naturally occurring D.cap x d.brev and D.cap x D.intermedia here and there. D.cap is such a slut, I wouldn't be surprised if someone eventually found a D.cap x U.subulata cross... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Thu Jan 22 21:15:22 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Drosera capillaris plasticity On Jan 23, 2004, at 12:01 AM, Dave Evans wrote: > Along those lines: Perhaps those long-arm caps are more or less > left over from when _D. capillaris_ and _D. intermedia_ were still the > same > thing. They might not be hybrids, but genetic leftovers that have > done a > bit of evolving on their own, but not two the point of where they are > easily > separated as a species from the other forms of _D. capillaris_. Wouldn't surprise me. If it turns out to be so, maybe we can get a Saturday afternoon horror show made up about it - "Sundew From Before The Dawn of Time!" or something. :) It would serve 'em right, the crotchety little things... > Now that it is becoming well known that something interesting is > going with _D. capillaris_ in Florida and probably more areas, I think > we > will continue to learn things since we are looking at _D. capillaris_ > with a > renewed fascination. Cool! :) It certainly has for me! (Probably self-evident from my contributions to this thread after lurking for the last couple of months.) Since my re-introduction to CP a few years back, I've gone from "Oh, a sundew!" to "Oh begeezus, another dang capillaris" to "Deep breath, hold it, let it out, find your happy place, you know there's only _so much_ variation possible before you lose your mind, or before they start to get up and walk around and try to bum cigarettes off of you...." And it's funny that Barry mentioned the PhD thing, because that's honestly something I would like to accomplish sometime in the next few years. I plan to try to go back to school sometime in the next couple of years, and it will either be film school or a degree in botany. (How's that for eclectic...) And these little guys truly are fascinating. I only hope I can get around to it before they are wiped out from all the development we've been getting in Florida lately. It seems to be increasing exponentially each year.... *sigh* -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Fri Jan 23 01:13:29 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Plasticity in D. capillaris Dear Listserve, Thank you all for your informative replies. I gather from what has been said that D. rotundifolia and D. capillaris are rarely sympatric. Phil, I am at a loss to explain the "pseudo-hibernacula" expressed my the plants you provided, but I can say that it is apparently tied to the onset of short days. Possibly the plants have adapted to the colder climatic conditions through natural selection, and there is some survival value placed on this characteristic. As far as other D. capillaris from different stations likewise exhibiting this trait, I do grow many forms here in Upstate NY but none of them demonstrate this character which appears to be unique to the extreme Northern range of the species, at least in my cultivation. In regards to the long arm form that Bob found in Florida, the difference is so profound it is difficult to explain except to grant the likelihood of hybridogenic involvement with D. intermedia. Ivan has since informed me that his initial assumptions that the long arm form of D. capillaris arose as the result of allopolyploidiy were incorrect, based on the fact that he crossed this with a more typical representative from the Southern range, producing completely fertile "hybrids", so obviously the ploidys are the same, so it is not a similar case with D. anglica. This leaves the question begging how to explain such diversity within the species. Although I don't have the karyotypes internalized, I believe there is no bar to hybridization amongst the U.S. Drosera species, and insofar as the styles are concerned, very little difference. Other researchers have noted the tendency of D. capillaris, and other forms of Drosera to produce longer arms in more aquatic environments, so I think that environmental influence can't be entirely discounted, but at the same time I feel there is more to the picture than just this! In regards to the South American populations of D. capillaris/brevifolia/intermedia, only D. capillaris and D. brevifolia are sympatric, and there are no known hybrids. This seems to argue against the possibility of ready hybridization as is the case with our Sarracenia species, although my instincts tell me that this variability is more than a consequence genetic drift in isolated populations. However, note there is also no instance of a "long arm form" of D. capillaris from South America, either, and you will note the populations of D. capillaris and D. intermedia are *not* sympatric there. This is a good argument supporting at least the possibility of hybridogenic involvement of the two respective species within our range. I have considered the presence or absence of local specific pollinators to explain why some populations exhibit these features which seem to be derived from associated species (especially in the Southern range)while other populations do not. In any case, I feel that simple hybridization scenarios will account for this variability. It's a "gut level" thing: although appearances may occasionally be deceiving, they may also be revealing. Derek's photos are very convincing, as are Ivan's experiments with hybridizing these species. (Apparently I missed the discussion previously mentioned, and was unable to pull it up from the archives using the search header "Drosera capillaris". Can anyone steer me to this?) Thanks for the interesting discussion. Yours, William Dawnstar __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: steven.stewart at worldnet.att.net (Steven Stewart) Date: Fri Jan 23 04:38:40 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Drosera capillaris plasticity Hello all, It is true that the wild populations are dissapearing rapidly, and need further study, but I just want to remind any and all interested researchers of D. capillaris not to forget the frontier of the _many_ herbarium collections of this variable species from Florida, in Colleges and Universities. I have found it is often mislabled as D. intermedia, D. rotundifolia, and D. brevifolia. While working at Rollins College I found there are some incredible specimens preserved more than 50 years ago, from areas that have long since been developed. I'm sure that other institutions have quite a few specimens that would be valuable for study. Steven Stewart ################### From: JWi5770869 at aol.com (JWi5770869@aol.com) Date: Fri Jan 23 05:02:49 2004 Subject: [CP] Taxonomists -how do they...etc Jan and all, >In many vertebrates species are distinguished on the basis of skeleton comparison (the soft parts do usually not conserve well and are prone to preparation artefacts). Thanks for the answers (and comments!). I must admit to being a tad dissapointed (que: thinking of a whale taxonomist saying "I'll have to get in the tank to measure the @%$&&?ing thing- Get the shower ready"). I hadn't even considered the difficulty in conserving such 'species' as Barrel Cactus. Regards ################### From: ksanders at clas.ufl.edu (Keith Sanders) Date: Fri Jan 23 06:22:40 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Plasticity in D. capillaris Can anyone further describe what the term "plasticity" means? Is it a botanical term, or is it literal, as in "plastic-like"? thanks, Keith -- Keith Sanders Systems Programmer CLASnet - College of Liberal Arts Network University of Florida PO Box 112034 Gainesville, FL 32611 ################### From: Sundew1802 at aol.com (Sundew1802@aol.com) Date: Fri Jan 23 06:34:28 2004 Subject: [CP]D. capillaris in florida (Phill Mann's CD) ################### From: hkobayashi4 at hotmail.com (Hideka Kobayashi) Date: Fri Jan 23 07:31:15 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: Re: Plasticity in D. capillaris There is almost always an outlier in a population. There is an extensive collection of Arabidopsis thaliana germplasm, and some are phenotypically *very* different from the wild type. The presence of such mutants does not necessarily indicate a possibility of the past or the recent introgression. How about mutation in homeobox genes? Not necessarily. Possible, but not definate. What if the diploid plant used produced unreduced gamates? You can't argue about something that may or may not exist. This means that once such a thing is found, your assumption simply collapses. See above. The weakness of this theory is that it is so much dependent on assumption that such a form does not exist. South America continent is much larger than the state of Florida. Maybe it is under-explored. Here I am presenting another "possibility" irresponsibly. The phenotypic variation observed among Florida plants may be in fact caused transposons. One of the factors that affects activation/deactivation of transposon is temperature. Since climate in Florida is warmer than the rest of states that D. capillaris inhabits, it is very possible that a wide range of variation is caused by (over)activation of jumping genes! There is a limitation in what you can tell by phenotypic traits. I no way disrespect Ivan's work, but it's not an experiment. Once you start to think about conducting "experiments", other requirements (experiment design, data/sample collection, data analysis, interpretation, etc.) follow. Again, I do not have a problem with experimentation or a pilot study. Hideka _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ################### From: Sundew1802 at aol.com (Sundew1802@aol.com) Date: Fri Jan 23 07:52:29 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Drosera capillaris plasticity ################### From: listen at merbach.net (Merbach) Date: Fri Jan 23 10:41:08 2004 Subject: [CP] GIANT pitcher plants! Hi all, just returned from our trip to Brunei we have to state that the pitcher plants there grow larger than ever before... Have a look at http://nepenthes.merbach.net/berakas.jpg Frightening, isn't it? :-) Dennis & Marlis Merbach ps: Charles, do you still read this list? We've lost your email adress... ################### From: slawarre at meijergardens.org (Steve LaWarre) Date: Fri Jan 23 10:47:00 2004 Subject: [CP] GIANT pitcher plants! What a great photo! Can you give us any location information? Steve LaWarre Grand Rapids, MI -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 1:42 PM To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group Hi all, just returned from our trip to Brunei we have to state that the pitcher plants there grow larger than ever before... Have a look at http://nepenthes.merbach.net/berakas.jpg Frightening, isn't it? :-) Dennis & Marlis Merbach ps: Charles, do you still read this list? We've lost your email adress... _______________________________________________ Cp mailing list Cp@omnisterra.com http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com ################### From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk) Date: Fri Jan 23 10:56:35 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Plasticity in D. capillaris Keith Sanders wrote: > > Can anyone further describe what the term "plasticity" means? Is it a > botanical term, or is it literal, as in "plastic-like"? dictionary.com gives among its definitions "Easily influenced; impressionable" which is, I think, more or less what is meant as it is used here. Or better yet, "able to assume a variety of forms". http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=plasticity Cheers Philip ################### From: listen at merbach.net (Merbach) Date: Fri Jan 23 11:00:43 2004 Subject: [CP] GIANT pitcher plants! Steve LaWarre wrote: > What a great photo! Can you give us any location information? Usually we don't tell any locations to protect the endangered plants but in this case we think we can make an exception: it's at the entrance of the Berakas Forest Recreation Park at the Tutong-Muara-Highway in Brunei. I'll add a little gallery with other new pics from Brunei later today. :-) Dennis ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Fri Jan 23 11:18:54 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 28 Hey Keith, Plasticity, in the current context, refers to the ability of the plant to assume numerous forms. Sometimes it is used to describe a single clone's ability to assume different forms in different environmental conditions, but in this case we're talking about the otherwise (presumably....) morphologically stable taxon (Drosera capillaris) becoming variable in Florida. > Can anyone further describe what the term "plasticity" means? Is it a > botanical term, or is it literal, as in "plastic-like"? > > thanks, > Keith > Oh, and Hideka, I suspect you may know this, but for clarification....one of the reasons that the Florida plants are so interesting is not because of the occasional outlier plants. We're all used to seeing the occasional outlier plants in a population that may be otherwise relatively well behaved morphologically. However, in these Florida plants you really can see a broader spectrum of morphology. Using your outlier parallel from statistics, it is as if the standard deviation of the population characteristics is much broader than usual. If the above is not clear, don't worry. It's just another way of saying "dem Florida plants are wanky!" Later! Barry --------------------- Barry Rice, Ph.D. bazza@sarracenia.com Carnivorous Plant FAQ--author www.sarracenia.com/faq.html Carnivorous Plant Newsletter--editor www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Fri Jan 23 11:19:29 2004 Subject: [CP] Plasticity (reposted, since I goofed up on my subject line a moment ago) Hey Keith, Plasticity, in the current context, refers to the ability of the plant to assume numerous forms. Sometimes it is used to describe a single clone's ability to assume different forms in different environmental conditions, but in this case we're talking about the otherwise (presumably....) morphologically stable taxon (Drosera capillaris) becoming variable in Florida. > Can anyone further describe what the term "plasticity" means? Is it a > botanical term, or is it literal, as in "plastic-like"? > > thanks, > Keith > Oh, and Hideka, I suspect you may know this, but for clarification....one of the reasons that the Florida plants are so interesting is not because of the occasional outlier plants. We're all used to seeing the occasional outlier plants in a population that may be otherwise relatively well behaved morphologically. However, in these Florida plants you really can see a broader spectrum of morphology. Using your outlier parallel from statistics, it is as if the standard deviation of the population characteristics is much broader than usual. If the above is not clear, don't worry. It's just another way of saying "dem Florida plants are wanky!" Later! Barry --------------------- Barry Rice, Ph.D. bazza@sarracenia.com Carnivorous Plant FAQ--author www.sarracenia.com/faq.html Carnivorous Plant Newsletter--editor www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Fri Jan 23 11:28:36 2004 Subject: [CP] GIANT pitcher plants! Hey is that steak I smell in there? Boost me up so I can have a look.... :-) Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA In a message dated 1/23/2004 2:01:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, listen@merbach.net writes: > > > Steve LaWarre wrote: > > > What a great photo! Can you give us any location information? > > Usually we don't tell any locations to protect the endangered plants but > in this case we think we can make an exception: it's at the entrance of > the Berakas Forest Recreation Park at the Tutong-Muara-Highway in Brunei. > > I'll add a little gallery with other new pics from Brunei later today. > > :-) Dennis > > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.co > m ################### From: bonnie at gerradroberts.com (Bonnie Rivers) Date: Fri Jan 23 11:45:55 2004 Subject: [CP] Carnivorous Plant Blackjack Hi all, My boyfriend just created a new CP related game. It's Carnivorous Plant Blackjack, you can check it out at http://www.gerradroberts.com//blackjack/index.php -Bonnie ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Fri Jan 23 11:56:16 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 27 Hey Dave and all, Fernando and I were having a good discussion regarding D. roraimae and D. capillaris on the UK Forum a while back which you might be interested in: http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1593 Scroll halfway down the page to Nov. 25th. In synopsis, we concluded that long arm forms of this species likely were not the result of hybridization with D. roraimae. I had been trying to figure how this plant circulating in the UK as D. "aff." roraimae "Pink Flower" fit into the equation: http://www.cpforums.org/gallery/sundews/Drosera_roriamae_pink_flower_060103_5 http://www.cpforums.org/gallery/sundews/Drosera_roriamae_060503_1 It is significantly different from the long arm form of D. capillaris which I am familiar with which come from the plants found by Bob McMorris in Florida (See my photo in CPN June, 2003 P. 54). I still am trying to account for such a different appearing plant. Like the plants Bob found, this too is fertile! Since seed was labeled with an "aff.", I presume the stock came from Lowrie, since this is one of his affectations....but where did it originate, if not in Araca! AFAIK, there is only one population of *fertile* long arm D. capillaris, and this is in Florida (and they do not look like this plant). The jury is out on this one, but based on Fernando's comments, the possibility of it being associated with D. roraimae in Brazil may be discounted. The same discussion revealed that the "Sp. Chapada Diamantina" circulating via Sundew Matt is likewise bogus, has no origin in South America, and is likely to be misidentified D. capillaris as well. It too is fertile. I conclude from this that there must be other "long arm forms" of D. capillaris which are fertile, other than the population Bob found, and I would love to find where they are located! Phil Sheridan discovered a long arm form in North Carolina I think, but these plants are sterile. It seems fertile long arm D. capillaris are a rare occurrence, and only in Florida. Can of worms indeed! A collection is certainly in order. Perhaps Vitor would be willing to do a DNA study to unravel this complex knot if the material was made available to him? For your pleasure, additional photo's showing the wide range of variation in this species may be seen on the thread at: http://www.petflytrap.com/cgi-bin/ib312/ikonboard.cgi?s=53442ee13f3a9877377a60a52b6253c7;act=ST;f=5;t=8958 Yours, William Dawnstar _____________________________________________________ Dave Evans asked: How about _D. roraimae_? It looks like _D. > capillaris_, but has a > stem... Of course, I don't know much about the > flowers so there is plenty > of room for error in my associating the two. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: tdstubb at sofnet.com (Tom Stubblefield) Date: Fri Jan 23 12:29:42 2004 Subject: [CP] GIANT pitcher plants! Funny, Joe! Actually, I'd like to get some seed and grow a few of these giant neps. There are a few cats in the neighborhood I'd like to dispose of... and maybe an overbearing bushytail or two. Can't say the "s" word...no, not gonna go there! Ha! Have a good one! Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Carnivorous Plant Discussion group" Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 1:28 PM > Hey is that steak I smell in there? Boost me up so I can have a look.... :-) > > Regards, > > Joe Griffin > Lincoln, NE USA > > > In a message dated 1/23/2004 2:01:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, listen@merbach.net writes: > > > > > > > Steve LaWarre wrote: > > > > > What a great photo! Can you give us any location information? > > > > Usually we don't tell any locations to protect the endangered plants but > > in this case we think we can make an exception: it's at the entrance of > > the Berakas Forest Recreation Park at the Tutong-Muara-Highway in Brunei. > > > > I'll add a little gallery with other new pics from Brunei later today. > > > > :-) Dennis > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cp mailing list > > Cp@omnisterra.com > > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.co > > m > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Fri Jan 23 13:53:31 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: Plasticity in D. capillaris Dear "Hideka Kobayashi", You asked me: >How about mutation in homeobox genes? ***I am no genetics expert, but don't such homeotic changes produce grossly abnormal phenotypes? Also, in Florida, we are looking at a population, not an outlier. Sure, this doesn't presuppose that a successful mutation might not have become successfully established, but let's look at the numbers first before we toss out the possibility of hybridogenic involvement and introgression. A good statistical sampling seems in order: any hypothesis is subject to analysis, but only if it is tested. This is where it begins: with someone doing something.*** >once such a thing is found, your assumption simply collapses ***Yes, certainly! This is true of any hypothesis where new and additional data contradicts an initial assumption. These are tentative concepts based on limited experience, always subject to refutation, but for now the fact remains: so far, there are no recorded instances, as stated. Although "facts" are subject to change (always), until additional experience proves otherwise, they remain facts. >The weakness of this theory is that it is so much dependent on assumption that such a form does not exist. ***Even granting this might be "weak" it is also a fact: I can only work with data that is presented, and keep an open mind when new data becomes evident. We build our theories upon what we currently know to be true. There are no certainties, only probabilities. Statistical events speak for themselves, and so far support what you consider (in your opinion) to be a "weak" theory.*** >The phenotypic variation observed among Florida plants may be in fact caused transposons. ***How is this "possibility" any less speculative than my own proposal? Until we begin to test our theories, they remain personal opinion. BTW: speculation is the beginning of knowledge, not the death of it, and it plays an important part in the scientific method*** >Here I am presenting another "possibility" irresponsibly. ***No. Here I am having a conversation, a preliminary exploration of concepts with those of similar interest. How is this irresponsible? This is not a scientific publication where I must prove my statements. That will come later, if it comes at all from this quarter. This is known as "discussion", and I believe this is what this Listserve is designed for.*** >Once you start to think about conducting "experiments", other requirements (experiment design, data/sample collection, data analysis, interpretation, etc.) follow. ***This is exactly what I propose. Of course, I could just leave all this to finer and more highly trained minds than mine to pursue, but if we all did that what would then be accomplished? We build on each others work, and refine our concepts accordingly.*** >Again, I do not have a problem with experimentation or a pilot study. ***Well then, consider this a pilot study!*** Yours, William Dawnstar ______________________________________________________ Message: 5 To: Cp@omnisterra.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed There is almost always an outlier in a population. There is an extensive collection of Arabidopsis thaliana germplasm, and some are phenotypically *very* different from the wild type. The presence of such mutants does not necessarily indicate a possibility of the past or the recent introgression. Not necessarily. Possible, but not definate. What if the diploid plant used produced unreduced gamates? You can't argue about something that may or may not exist. This means that once such a thing is found, your assumption simply collapses. See above. The weakness of this theory is that it is so much dependent on assumption that such a form does not exist. South America continent is much larger than the state of Florida. Maybe it is under-explored. Here I am presenting another "possibility" irresponsibly. The phenotypic variation observed among Florida plants may be in fact caused transposons. One of the factors that affects activation/deactivation of transposon is temperature. Since climate in Florida is warmer than the rest of states that D. capillaris inhabits, it is very possible that a wide range of variation is caused by (over)activation of jumping genes! There is a limitation in what you can tell by phenotypic traits. I no way disrespect Ivan's work, but it's not an experiment. Once you start to think about conducting "experiments", other requirements (experiment design, data/sample collection, data analysis, interpretation, etc.) follow. Again, I do not have a problem with experimentation or a pilot study. Hideka __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: rrz7001 at humboldt.edu (rrz7001@humboldt.edu) Date: Fri Jan 23 14:11:19 2004 Subject: [CP] GIANT pitcher plants! There are other large plants simply waiting to pounce. These are in downtown Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. http://www.humboldt.edu/~rrz7001/zphotos/nepenthesfountain.html -Bob- (I submitted this some time ago, but it seems to have disappeared into cyberspace. Sorry if it is a duplicate.) ################### From: alexnetherton at charter.net (Alex Netherton) Date: Fri Jan 23 14:40:18 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: D. cap. plasticity I have seen the differences too. I have seen caps in NC that are rather small, rosettes as small as a dime. SC is the same, at least in the Francis Marion NF. I have seen them in the Savannah GA area, and are pretty much the same, maybe a little larger. In south GA they get BIG. The ones I saw growing on a road side somewhere near Woodbine, and these were up on a bank, no Sphag, were larger than a quarter, and had big, as big as my little finger nail almost, leaves, and bright red. Only time I have seen them this big. Brevifolia/leucantha can be found all over south GA, but on drier sites, and I mean dry. Power line cuts on a sandhill dry. I have seen them growing on the grounds of the Honey Creek Conference Center (Waverly GA) turning the grounds pink in mid day. Dry I tell you. Water level 3 feet down. Don't see much intermedia in south GA. In NC znd SC it grows in water and has long stems to reach above it. Have seen them growing in 3 inches or more of water in Francis Marion in SC. Have never seen rotundifolia outside the mountains (NC) where the other species never visit. :-( ################### From: listen at merbach.net (Merbach) Date: Fri Jan 23 15:18:09 2004 Subject: [CP] GIANT pitcher plants! I've uploaded a small gallery of our latest photos from Brunei to http://nepenthes.merbach.net/brunei2004/ More may follow, we are not even half way through our slides. And may be, one day, definitely in this millenium, there will be the great update of our nepenthes site... :-) Dennis ################### From: voodoodancer at hotmail.com (Mark Todd) Date: Fri Jan 23 19:16:18 2004 Subject: [CP] Tamlins Request Tamlin, I have four good locations for you. Three are in North Carolina, and one in South Carolina. One of the sites in Brunswick county, NC the D.capillaris are groing with in 50 feet of D.brevifolia. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/565114/brefolia2.jpg http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/565114/woodedarea.jpg http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/565114/capillaris1.jpg http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/565114/capillaris3.jpg http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/565114/capillaris2.jpg I have found sites where D.capillaris groes along side of D.filiformis, and intermedia I'll get with you later to discusss the other locations. If you want to see more pics and read the the story of the trip, click on the sites below. http://www.petflytrap.com/cgi-bin/ib312/ikonboard.cgi?s=f01089db68f9ca3b8b63b37613c44d21;act=ST;f=24;t=9779 http://www.petflytrap.com/cgi-bin/ib312/ikonboard.cgi?s=f01089db68f9ca3b8b63b37613c44d21;act=ST;f=24;t=8814 http://www.petflytrap.com/cgi-bin/ib312/ikonboard.cgi?s=f01089db68f9ca3b8b63b37613c44d21;act=ST;f=24;t=8247 Paypal is nothing but hightech common thieves. Check out their customer feedback http://www.planetfeedback.com/sharedLettersList/0,2941,101112-70-0-0-20-0-fb_date-desc,00.html Don't become another paypal victim _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ################### From: hkobayashi4 at hotmail.com (Hideka Kobayashi) Date: Fri Jan 23 19:36:50 2004 Subject: [CP] Fantasizing Floridan D. capillaris I am not an expert, either. But homeotic change are not necessarily "grossly abnormal phenotypes". I guess it depends on what you consider grossly abnormal phenotypic features, though. But pretty much everything so far is anecdotal. Observation is very important, but again, without data that you can analyze, you really can't make a concluion on a population. Maybe we should consider other possibilities first before we presume it is a result of intersepcific hybridization and subsequent introgression. This really does not mean such a thing will ever be discovered. The fact is that there are recorded instances in US, and nothing more. Since no data have been presented that such plants have never existed or will exist ever, I can only work with the data that is presented. In this case, there are recorded instances in US, and nothing more. Not at all. There is a hardly any data that you can analyze. It's great that there are pictures and records, but is there any statistics here? Now you brought the issue of statistics, I am wondering how the data were analyzed, and how such a conclusion was made if there was one. Everything at this point is based on assumption and anecdotal evidence. No study, and no concrete data. It's all up to you fatasize, but is it scientific? It seems you didn't get it. I proposed *irresponsibly*, and I can come with many more variations. But it is different from coming up with theories based on assumption. My proposing was "irresponsible" meaning I just proposed without actually believing it. Whether what you proposed was "responsible" or "irreponsible" was not my concern. But it was an exploration of concept. However, I also mention that this is something I often see. When somebody is pointed out not being "scientific" or there is a potential problem in his theory, he often bolts out that he is not a scientist, etc. even if he was very much using scientific logic. BTW, scientists do not *prove* anything. We present evidence that supports a hypothesis. I know some don't agree, but that is how I interpret. What is *this*? Making an assumption w/o data? Has any study been conducted? I thought you said there hasn't been one! This thread is about a fantasy using some scientific thinking. You pretty much said something similar ("Here I am having a conversation, a preliminary exploration of concepts with those of similar interest"). There is nothing wrong about fantasizing. It may be little difficult for you to understand, but I am not really refuting the possibility of introgression. I will consider that when I see data and findings based on good science. Coming up with theories based on assumptions is not the same thing to me. Hideka _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ################### From: jsg16 at utah.edu (John Green) Date: Fri Jan 23 21:45:21 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Red rosettey things > The phrase "Red rosettey thing" was coined by Paul Temple > after he was over here looking at the Drosera in FL! > Bob McMorris > HudsonFL Personally, and as one who grows mostly Sarracenia, I don't think of sundews as "red-rosettey things." No, I prefer to think of them as "wonderful little additions to a pot of Sarrs!" ;-) John Green West Hills, California http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Sat Jan 24 02:34:57 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Fantasizing Floridan D. capillaris Dear Hideka, >Observation is very important, but again, without data that you can analyze, you really can't make a concluion on a population. ***Yes, observation IS very important. From observations made over a number of years, by a number of different independent sources, we become interested in confirming or denying *possibilities* that suggest themselves. Do not confuse initial inquiries with conclusions. No conclusions are being put forth here. I am asking for location data on confirmed observations that were in no way "fantastic": repeated observations are significant! Perhaps you have a better plan to suggest? How would you begin such an investigation? >Maybe we should consider other possibilities first before we presume it is a result of intersepcific hybridization and subsequent introgression. ***If you wish to pursue such possibilities, please do so, but until you can provide me with data to support these possibilities they remain equally as "fantastic" as what we are suggesting. No more and no less.*** >Since no data have been presented that such plants have never existed or will exist ever, I can only work with the data that is presented. In this case, there are recorded instances in US, and nothing more. ***Once again I ask you: how would you propose to begin gathering such data, other than to make inquiry as to where these plants are to be found from those who have seen them? Data does not simply appear: it must be gathered. This is where it begins. When we have determined where these variations are found in habitat, we can begin field studies, sample and apply statistical formulas. Until this happens, the rest is impossible. Statistically speaking, right now, as it stands, N=0, correct? Not much hope for a standard deviation to be expressed in that, is there?*** > There is a hardly any data that you can analyze. It's great that there are pictures and records, but is there any statistics here? ***As above! Once again you are putting the cart before the horse.*** >Everything at this point is based on assumption and anecdotal evidence. No study, and no concrete data. It's all up to you fatasize, but is it scientific? ***I really can't see where anyone is assuming anything here. We are commenting on mutual shared observations, preliminary to a more formal investigation: once we have something to investigate, that is! Is this scientific? I believe it is. Nothing comes from doing nothing. "Fantasy" is the opposite of "reality" but these observations are real, and reality unlike fantasy is measurable and quantifiable. Perhaps you do not agree? These observations are made by those who have lived near, and worked with these populations. I do not see how you can discredit such observations so blithely. The "data" I currently seek is location data: simply that.*** ***BTW: speculation is the beginning of knowledge, not the death of it, and it plays an important part in the scientific method*** >But it is different from coming up with theories based on assumption. ***You are again confusing "assumptions" with "conclusions". A hypothesis, based on repeated observation, independently confirmed by second and third parties is hardly an assumption. It may or may not prove to be validated, but it is worthy of testing. The only stupid questions are the ones that are never asked*** >However, I also mention that this is something I often see. When somebody is pointed out not being "scientific" or there is a potential problem in his theory, he often bolts out that he is not a scientist, etc. even if he was very much using scientific logic. ***You will not see this in me. I am cognizant that "logic" and "science" are quite different disciplines*** Yours, William Dawnstar ____________________________________________ I am not an expert, either. But homeotic change are not necessarily "grossly abnormal phenotypes". I guess it depends on what you consider grossly abnormal phenotypic features, though. But pretty much everything so far is anecdotal. Observation is very important, but again, without data that you can analyze, you really can't make a concluion on a population. Maybe we should consider other possibilities first before we presume it is a result of intersepcific hybridization and subsequent introgression. This really does not mean such a thing will ever be discovered. The fact is that there are recorded instances in US, and nothing more. Since no data have been presented that such plants have never existed or will exist ever, I can only work with the data that is presented. In this case, there are recorded instances in US, and nothing more. Not at all. There is a hardly any data that you can analyze. It's great that there are pictures and records, but is there any statistics here? Now you brought the issue of statistics, I am wondering how the data were analyzed, and how such a conclusion was made if there was one. Everything at this point is based on assumption and anecdotal evidence. No study, and no concrete data. It's all up to you fatasize, but is it scientific? It seems you didn't get it. I proposed *irresponsibly*, and I can come with many more variations. But it is different from coming up with theories based on assumption. My proposing was "irresponsible" meaning I just proposed without actually believing it. Whether what you proposed was "responsible" or "irreponsible" was not my concern. But it was an exploration of concept. However, I also mention that this is something I often see. When somebody is pointed out not being "scientific" or there is a potential problem in his theory, he often bolts out that he is not a scientist, etc. even if he was very much using scientific logic. BTW, scientists do not *prove* anything. We present evidence that supports a hypothesis. I know some don't agree, but that is how I interpret. What is *this*? Making an assumption w/o data? Has any study been conducted? I thought you said there hasn't been one! This thread is about a fantasy using some scientific thinking. You pretty much said something similar ("Here I am having a conversation, a preliminary exploration of concepts with those of similar interest"). There is nothing wrong about fantasizing. It may be little difficult for you to understand, but I am not really refuting the possibility of introgression. I will consider that when I see data and findings based on good science. Coming up with theories based on assumptions is not the same thing to me. Hideka __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: bioexp at juno.com (Ivan Snyder) Date: Sat Jan 24 09:49:22 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Drosera capillaris plasticity Thanks Tamlin. Yes, I have D. capillaris X rotundifolia now. It proved totally sterile as did D. capillaris X intermedia. On the other hand, the few quite different forms of D. capillaris I crossed together proved totally fertile. So, my impression is that we have only separate variants of D. capillaris and no introgression with other species. I am glad to see this interest in D. capillaris variation. I agree some forms are nice for cultivation as well. My favorite is Bob McMorris's long-arm from Pasco Co.. This one stays good looking for a long time in a pot. I have an old one that is forming a stem like some of those caulescent S. American species. Other variants clump after flowering and don't look so nice. I figure we know Bob's plant well enough to give it an official name. Any suggestions? Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Sat Jan 24 10:42:59 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Drosera capillaris plasticity Hi Ivan, Thanks for the update on your work with this species. Although your results are not conclusive, they are revealing. The fact that the progeny of these crosses are sterile isn't surprising. As far as naming the plants Bob found, I guess you are talking of publishing it as a cultivar? It's true the plant is being widely grown and distributed by growers and it would help if we were able to distinguish it from other possible "long arm forms" which are also apparently being circulated under bogus names implying false collection origins. I'll leave that name up to you though! To publish anything with taxononomic rank would require some dedicated field and herbarium study, which as you have probably gathered I am willing to pursue. I have not even begun to think of naming anything, only of taking a statistical sampling, and initial collection. Based on your *preliminary* experiments with hybridization I think the whole issue of plasticity will have to wait for someone to do a good genetic study: once the material is collected. Look for updates on this as they happpen! Thanks to all who provided some location data as per my request. Yours, William Dawnstar ______________________________________________________ Thanks Tamlin. Yes, I have D. capillaris X rotundifolia now. It proved totally sterile as did D. capillaris X intermedia. On the other hand, the few quite different forms of D. capillaris I crossed together proved totally fertile. So, my impression is that we have only separate variants of D. capillaris and no introgression with other species. I am glad to see this interest in D. capillaris variation. I agree some forms are nice for cultivation as well. My favorite is Bob McMorris's long-arm from Pasco Co.. This one stays good looking for a long time in a pot. I have an old one that is forming a stem like some of those caulescent S. American species. Other variants clump after flowering and don't look so nice. I figure we know Bob's plant well enough to give it an official name. Any suggestions? Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California >Ivan, have you made the cross between D. capillaris and D. rotundifolia? >It is my belief, based on the visual presentation and behavior of these plants that there is good evidence to support a publication of these different forms at least at varietal level. Depending on the range of the long arm Southern form found by Bob, this form might qualify as a sub-species at least - (see Ivan's Snyder's commendable article in the June 2003 CPN regarding this fertile example). __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: stephenwd at sbcglobal.net (Stephen Davis) Date: Sat Jan 24 12:26:53 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Red rosettey things By the way, as most of you don't know me, Drosera are what got me into this hobby and they are still the focus and mainstay of my collection. So my comments are tougue in cheek. I admit I love all the CP though. if you ever go to my site however, you will find it mostly about Drosera and my outdoor bog. Stephen www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com John Green wrote: > The phrase "Red rosettey thing" was coined by Paul Temple > after he was over here looking at the Drosera in FL! > Bob McMorris > HudsonFL Personally, and as one who grows mostly Sarracenia, I don't think of sundews as "red-rosettey things." No, I prefer to think of them as "wonderful little additions to a pot of Sarrs!" ;-) John Green West Hills, California http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm ################### From: d_muscipula at hotmail.com (D. Muscipula) Date: Sat Jan 24 14:06:05 2004 Subject: [CP] Carnivorous Plant Blackjack Wow! That is sooo cool! Now, can you have him make a game i know how to play like freecell or something? 8) Very cool. The photos galleries are very nice, as well. Looks like California Carnivores has a much nicer and more elaborate setup in the new location. Nathan ----- Original Message ----- To: Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 2:43 PM > Hi all, > My boyfriend just created a new CP related game. It's Carnivorous Plant > Blackjack, you can check it out at > http://www.gerradroberts.com//blackjack/index.php > > -Bonnie ################### From: srcurrie at currieweb.com (Steven R. Currie) Date: Sun Jan 25 07:18:29 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: Plasticity in D. capillaris The explantion earlier on Plasticity was very good. I have a question on it as regards Sarracenia Purpurea Purpurea . When my first Purpurea was in direct sunlight he grew short and very purple. When I moved him to a window where the plant was in more indirect sunlight it grew very tall and green. No purple at all. It thrived in both places. Is that an example of Plasticity? Steve ################### From: srcurrie at currieweb.com (Steven R. Currie) Date: Sun Jan 25 07:29:32 2004 Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden What methods do people use to water an outdoor bog? I am currently going to just plant a large bog planter. Water was no problem in New York State last year as we had so much rainfall. I cannot use our city water so I will have to arrange to capture rain water. Anyone out ther just stick a bog planter under their rainpipe off of their roof? Steve Craig Wasson (cwasson) wrote: >Jim and the group; > >Having just built my first bog last year - I have a few suggestions. If >you have rocky soil you might go with the plastic sheets. The liner is >very stiff and you need a level hole to put it in. If you run into a >big huge rock with the plastic sheet method you just have a shallow >spot. I used the preformed shell and it took work with a sledge hammer >and pick to get it in. > >Here in Virginia it rains a LOT. I put a hole in the side a few inches >down, but made it a watertight fit for the flexible drain hose I ran to >the bottom. By adjusting the level of the top of this hose I can adjust >the effective level of the hole easily. An added advantage is it drains >from the bottom - providing a constant flushing action with these >torrential rains we get. The flushing action seems good enough that I >decided to put a couple of hoses from my public-water-utility-fed drip >irrigation system into the bog so it does not go dry between rain storms >when I'm away. So far no ill effects from city water. When it's >already full the drip system just flushes it some more... > >I used pearlite - not sand. It took weeks to get it to quit floating! >And until the moss took over the top it kept splashing out and all over >the low growers. Next time I'll use sand. > >I topped it with some live sphagnum from a spring behind my vacation >house... That moss really grows tall and fast and keeps burying my >low-growers and even S. Purp. Some sphagnum seems to stay lower and now >I'm looking to substitute for the lower-growing moss I discovered in >some of my indoor pots. > >Be sure your sprinkler does not hit the bog... all my tall flava got >filled with water and/or knocked over before I adjusted my sprinkler >system. > >Make it much, much bigger than you think it should be. Took me about 1 >month to fill mine up and I hate to have to quit getting new plants. >I'm already planning for a 2nd bigger bog here and a 3rd at the vacation >home. > >By the way - here at my house we've had lots of days lately where the >high was below 20 and the low was in single digits. I built a >double-insulated cold frame and so far the lowest temp recorded under it >(Radio Shack wireless thermometer) is 25. It has pretty consistently >been between 31 and 36 even on nights into the low teens. So I think >there is a good chance even the VFT will survive. Not so sure about the >d. capensis... I left a few sub-tropicals in there just to see what >happens. > >Good luck! > >Craig > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Cp-bounces@omnisterra.com >>[mailto:Cp-bounces@omnisterra.com] On Behalf Of Jim Zielinski >>Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:40 PM >>To: Cp@omnisterra.com >>Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden >> >> >>Hey, all...after all these years, I finally have my own home. >>Not a renter. >> >>And one of the very first projects...I want my own CP bog garden. >> >>I've seen 100 opinions on this plastic versus that liner, >>prefabs versus whatever...and so on. >> >>I've seen some prefabs marked down at some of the >>K-Marty/Wal-Marty type stores...Some builder's supply joints, >>too. From experience, do any of you have a major pro or con >>on prefabs? >> >>And if liners are preferred, it seems like once, eons ago, >>someone was debating this poly versus that pool liner, and I >>can't remember the upshot. I'm thinking, I suppose, in terms >>of what will last longer and require less replacement. >> >>Also, for pitchers...if I use a prefab, how far up, inch-wise, >>would you recommend a drainage hole (or holes??) be placed? >> >>I do have access to decent sand from a nursery (not river, >>unwashed, or play sand, but some form of horticultural)...so >>after that, it's peat, maybe some top-dressing, and off I go. >> >>I think. ha >> >>Thanks for your thoughts and replies! >> >>- jEz >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Cp mailing list >>Cp@omnisterra.com >>http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_>omnisterra.com >> >> >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > > > > ################### From: stephenwd at sbcglobal.net (Stephen Davis) Date: Sun Jan 25 11:31:44 2004 Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden I bought a reverse osmosis unit off of ebay. They are not very expensive there. I wouldn't put the bog right under the rain spout as the force of the water would probably wash dirt away, plus give you no control over the amount of water. Stephen www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com "Steven R. Currie" wrote: What methods do people use to water an outdoor bog? I am currently going to just plant a large bog planter. Water was no problem in New York State last year as we had so much rainfall. I cannot use our city water so I will have to arrange to capture rain water. Anyone out ther just stick a bog planter under their rainpipe off of their roof? Steve Craig Wasson (cwasson) wrote: ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Sun Jan 25 11:46:36 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Definition of "Plasticity" Hi Steve, When we cultivate a species, the differences in individual culture can often produce wildly different results. In the examples of D. capillaris, the variation in situ will be dependent on far fewer variables (not to imply that these are not present in situ as well, but less so than in individual culture). The term "plasticity" is not AFAIK a botanical definition, but rather an accepted English definition referring to a potentially mutable form, so apply this as you will. Yours, William Dawnstar ______________________________________________________ Message: 3 To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group Message-ID: <4013DDE5.5060807@currieweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed The explantion earlier on Plasticity was very good. I have a question on it as regards Sarracenia Purpurea Purpurea . When my first Purpurea was in direct sunlight he grew short and very purple. When I moved him to a window where the plant was in more indirect sunlight it grew very tall and green. No purple at all. It thrived in both places. Is that an example of Plasticity? Steve __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Sun Jan 25 11:54:56 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: :Drosera "Red Rosetty Things" Hi Steve, Well, LOL, if you are going to demean the most wonderful CP genus in the world, may I suggest you adopt the admittedly illegitimate psuedotaxonomic term which was taught to me by friend Andrew Broome in NZ? Drosera roundandstickya {Broome} In Good Humor, William Dawnstar ______________________________________________________ Message: 2 To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group Message-ID: <20040124202653.44078.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii By the way, as most of you don't know me, Drosera are what got me into this hobby and they are still the focus and mainstay of my collection. So my comments are tougue in cheek. I admit I love all the CP though. if you ever go to my site however, you will find it mostly about Drosera and my outdoor bog. Stephen www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com John Green wrote: > The phrase "Red rosettey thing" was coined by Paul Temple > after he was over here looking at the Drosera in FL! > Bob McMorris > HudsonFL Personally, and as one who grows mostly Sarracenia, I don't think of sundews as "red-rosettey things." No, I prefer to think of them as "wonderful little additions to a pot of Sarrs!" ;-) John Green West Hills, California http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: rhillier at swconnection.com (Rick Hillier) Date: Sun Jan 25 13:15:13 2004 Subject: [CP] Bog Garden In Ontario Greetings, I just planted a bog garden late last summer with various Sarracenia species and hybrids, Dionaea and some local Drosera species (rotundifolia, intermedia and linearis - I'd love to find some anglica). We've had temperatures in in the minus teens to twenties for the past few weeks... the garden has about 10" of pine needles on top of it, and about 6" of snow. I'm wondering what will survive this spring. >>> Rick <<< ################### From: hkobayashi4 at hotmail.com (Hideka Kobayashi) Date: Sun Jan 25 13:54:55 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: Re: Fantasizing Floridan D. capillaris William, I thought you made a sort of conclusion that the length of petiole was not the result of polyploidy when no chromosome account was done. It was more than “initial inquiries”. A survey that results in *actual* numbers, maybe? Personally, I am more inclined to a molecular approach whether it is SSRs, AFLPs, or whatever, but then again, such approach itself may not give a definitive answer. Possibly it will remain so. Indeed. But then again, you have failed to provide the data or “statistical evidence”, which you implied its existence in the previous message. At initial stages of a study, many possibilities *can be* suggested. Sure, not all of them are worthy. Speaking of a possibility, it seems that you might have misunderstood my last message. It really doesn't matter whether *I* can provide you "with data to support these possibilities". What I am discussing here is *your* so-called hypothesis. I am open to possibilities, but so far nothing *concrete* has been presented to support your hypothesis. Now Ivan says D. capillaris X rotundifolia and D. capillaris X intermedia are (so far) sterile. In the light of new information, I would like to know *your* opinion on this. Oh, I don’t know. But I thought you had something more concrete when you implied the existence of “statistical evidence”. Please consult your statistical evidence. I can't say much w/o looking data. Hell, I can't say much even if I look at my data sometimes. So after all, “statistical evidence” does not exist? And if it doesn't exist, who is really "putting the cart before the horse"? I thought you seemed to be inclined to believe the plasticity exhibited by D. capillaris was in fact due to interspecific hybridization. Of course, it's just my impression, so I could be very wrong. Perhaps you misunderstood when I emphasized the importance of observation. Also if you don’t make one, you won’t also be able to collect data that can be used for statistical analysis. But as we speak, is there such data exist? Maybe not. First, you implied the existence of “statistical evidence”, but now you say there isn’t a such thing? Sure, but can’t go beyond its limit when there isn’t much to analyze or evaluate. But then again, what has been “confirmed”? The length of petioles in actual numbers? The number of individual plants that exhibit such a trait in a given population? I am not arguing the species may or may not exhibit a high degree of plasticity. Or even it may be the result of introgression. But could science exist without logic? Hideka P.S. Could you truncate the message you are replying to? You use others' quote (jncluding mine) anyway. _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ################### From: hkobayashi4 at hotmail.com (Hideka Kobayashi) Date: Sun Jan 25 14:16:40 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: RE: Plasticity in D. capillaris I think so. Production of pigments including anthocyanins is enhanced by various factors such as temperature, light, herbivory, etc. Anthocyanins protect cells and tissues from singlet oxygen and other free radicals. Plant height is in part controlled by the ratio of red light and far red light. Since far red light is more abundant than red light in the shade, in general, plants get taller. http://www.clemson.edu/hort/sctop/bsec/bsec-06.htm "Plant growth can be altered by manipulating the amount of red (R) relative to far-red (FR) light without altering the amount of photosynthetic light. Red light has been reported to inhibit stem elongation, promote lateral shoot growth, prevent dark-induced leaf abscission and increase the number of tillers in grasses. The effects of FR light have been shown to be opposite to those of R light." Hideka Steve _________________________________________________________________ Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx ################### From: stephenwd at sbcglobal.net (Stephen Davis) Date: Sun Jan 25 22:50:56 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: :Drosera "Red Rosetty Things" Tamlin, LOL here too. My 10 year old daughter liked your name better too, although she felt D. roundandstickyyuckii was a little more discriptive still. Stephen TamlinD Dawnstar wrote: Hi Steve, Well, LOL, if you are going to demean the most wonderful CP genus in the world, may I suggest you adopt the admittedly illegitimate psuedotaxonomic term which was taught to me by friend Andrew Broome in NZ? Drosera roundandstickya {Broome} In Good Humor, William Dawnstar ______________________________________________________ Message: 2 To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group Message-ID: <20040124202653.44078.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii By the way, as most of you don't know me, Drosera are what got me into this hobby and they are still the focus and mainstay of my collection. So my comments are tougue in cheek. I admit I love all the CP though. if you ever go to my site however, you will find it mostly about Drosera and my outdoor bog. Stephen www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com John Green wrote: > The phrase "Red rosettey thing" was coined by Paul Temple > after he was over here looking at the Drosera in FL! > Bob McMorris > HudsonFL Personally, and as one who grows mostly Sarracenia, I don't think of sundews as "red-rosettey things." No, I prefer to think of them as "wonderful little additions to a pot of Sarrs!" ;-) John Green West Hills, California http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: mtalt at hort.net (Marge Talt) Date: Sun Jan 25 23:33:01 2004 Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden > From: Steven R. Currie > What methods do people use to water an outdoor bog? I am currently > going to just plant a large bog planter. Water was no problem in New > York State last year as we had so much rainfall. I cannot use our city > water so I will have to arrange to capture rain water. Anyone out ther > just stick a bog planter under their rainpipe off of their roof? ---------- Don't know if you have space for it, but I just sit a 30 gallon trash can outside during summer to collect rain water. I cover the top with a piece of plastic window screen material wired to the barrel to keep it taut and secure. This to keep out debris, leaves and mosquitoes. Either when the barrel gets full or in fall, before frost, I put the water in used spring water jugs and save it in the garage until I need it for my mini-bog in summer. Works for me. Probably wouldn't work in areas with low rainfall or for someone with a really large bog area. If you don't have space for a 30 gal. barrel, you could use a smaller container to collect rainwater and just have to empty it more often. Agree that putting your bog planter under a downspout wouldn't be a great idea as a hard rain would probably wash the contents of the planter overboard. Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland mtalt@hort.net Editor: Gardening in Shade ----------------------------------------------- Current Article: Spring Peepers http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening ------------------------------------------------ Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html ------------------------------------------------ All Suite101.com garden topics : http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635 ################### From: csvieira at epm.net.co (Kligo) Date: Mon Jan 26 05:12:36 2004 Subject: [CP] Florida notes Barry, could you tell us how to effectively differentiate D.intermedia and D.capillaris using stipules and maybe other plant/flower parts?? Regards, Sebastian > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 07:40:15 -0800 (PST) > From: "Barry A. Rice" > Subject: [CP] Florida notes > To: cp list > Message-ID: > > I've become > quite resigned in Florida to saying, "Oh, a sundew of some kind!" > until I > pull off a leaf and look at the details of the stipules. > ################### From: GHarmison at cp4.hctx.net (Harmison, Greg (Commissioner Pct.4)) Date: Mon Jan 26 08:11:45 2004 Subject: [CP] Hello Hello. I have just joined the listserve and they suggested I introduce myself. My name is Greg Harmison, and I have been growing CP's since 1981. It all stared with a sickly looking Venus Flytrap in a friends windowsill, and as most are aware, once hooked you are in it for life. I have not had much more space than a small terrarium, so I do not grow many and most are small. I am looking to start a collection of terrestrial Utricularias, as they do not take up much space. I work at a botanical garden as the program manager, and would like to start a CP garden here. We have some planted in our native plant display and hope to add more as space permits. I look forward to being part of this group. Greg Greg Harmison Program Manager Mercer Arboretum & Botanic Gardens 22306 Aldine Westfield Humble, TX 77338 Phone (281) 443-8731 Fax (281) 209-9767 www.cp4.hctx.net/mercer ################### From: steven.stewart at worldnet.att.net (Steven Stewart) Date: Mon Jan 26 09:57:52 2004 Subject: [CP] Online herbarium of Florida plants Hello all, I just thought I would share this great site with people interested in researching Drosera (or any other plants) of Florida. www.plantatlas.usf.edu I would like to get any other online sites like this if anyone knows of some. It's kind of nice knowing you don't have to travel around the world to utilize educational herbaria. Of course to get the full spectrum (see all voucher specimens) of a given species, hybrid or whatever ... A visit would be required. Take care, Steven Stewart Florida, USA ################### From: srcurrie at currieweb.com (Steven R. Currie) Date: Mon Jan 26 10:08:40 2004 Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden That sounds like a good idea. Don't worry, I am not going to put my planter under the spout! I was more or less musing about it. I had thought about the water flow disturbing the peat. Someone should invent a safe method of using the house run-off. I think I could do a 30 gallon barrel or trash can. We just bought this place and it is only .19 acres but has plenty of sun. Steve Marge Talt wrote: >>From: Steven R. Currie >> What methods do people use to water an outdoor bog? I am >> >> >currently > > >>going to just plant a large bog planter. Water was no problem in >> >> >New > > >>York State last year as we had so much rainfall. I cannot use our >> >> >city > > >>water so I will have to arrange to capture rain water. Anyone out >> >> >ther > > >>just stick a bog planter under their rainpipe off of their roof? >> >> >---------- > >Don't know if you have space for it, but I just sit a 30 gallon trash >can outside during summer to collect rain water. I cover the top >with a piece of plastic window screen material wired to the barrel to >keep it taut and secure. This to keep out debris, leaves and >mosquitoes. Either when the barrel gets full or in fall, before >frost, I put the water in used spring water jugs and save it in the >garage until I need it for my mini-bog in summer. Works for me. >Probably wouldn't work in areas with low rainfall or for someone with >a really large bog area. If you don't have space for a 30 gal. >barrel, you could use a smaller container to collect rainwater and >just have to empty it more often. > >Agree that putting your bog planter under a downspout wouldn't be a >great idea as a hard rain would probably wash the contents of the >planter overboard. > >Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland >mtalt@hort.net >Editor: Gardening in Shade >----------------------------------------------- >Current Article: Spring Peepers >http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening >------------------------------------------------ >Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date >http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html >------------------------------------------------ >All Suite101.com garden topics : >http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635 > > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > > > > ################### From: ksanders at clas.ufl.edu (Keith Sanders) Date: Mon Jan 26 10:14:10 2004 Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden These guys make a neat spout diverter that you can use to collect water into rain barrels. I've seen them in other places too. http://www.gutterworks.com/rain_barrels.html Some people have expressed reservations about chemicals coming off of the roof though. Steven R. Currie wrote: > That sounds like a good idea. Don't worry, I am not going to put my > planter under the spout! I was more or less musing about it. I had > thought about the water flow disturbing the peat. Someone should invent > a safe method of using the house run-off. > I think I could do a 30 gallon barrel or trash can. We just bought > this place and it is only .19 acres but has plenty of sun. > > Steve > > Marge Talt wrote: > >>> From: Steven R. Currie >>> What methods do people use to water an outdoor bog? I am >>> >> >> currently >> >>> going to just plant a large bog planter. Water was no problem in >>> >> >> New >> >>> York State last year as we had so much rainfall. I cannot use our >>> >> >> city >> >>> water so I will have to arrange to capture rain water. Anyone out >>> >> >> ther >> >>> just stick a bog planter under their rainpipe off of their roof? >>> >> >> ---------- >> >> Don't know if you have space for it, but I just sit a 30 gallon trash >> can outside during summer to collect rain water. I cover the top >> with a piece of plastic window screen material wired to the barrel to >> keep it taut and secure. This to keep out debris, leaves and >> mosquitoes. Either when the barrel gets full or in fall, before >> frost, I put the water in used spring water jugs and save it in the >> garage until I need it for my mini-bog in summer. Works for me. >> Probably wouldn't work in areas with low rainfall or for someone with >> a really large bog area. If you don't have space for a 30 gal. >> barrel, you could use a smaller container to collect rainwater and >> just have to empty it more often. >> >> Agree that putting your bog planter under a downspout wouldn't be a >> great idea as a hard rain would probably wash the contents of the >> planter overboard. >> >> Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland >> mtalt@hort.net >> Editor: Gardening in Shade >> ----------------------------------------------- >> Current Article: Spring Peepers >> http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening >> ------------------------------------------------ >> Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date >> http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html >> ------------------------------------------------ >> All Suite101.com garden topics : >> http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Cp mailing list >> Cp@omnisterra.com >> http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com >> >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com -- Keith Sanders Systems Programmer CLASnet - College of Liberal Arts Network University of Florida PO Box 112034 Gainesville, FL 32611 ################### From: Writerguy67 at aol.com (Writerguy67@aol.com) Date: Mon Jan 26 11:06:19 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: new bog (Craig Wasson's posting) Craig (et al), I run a small thermostatically-controlled electric-powered ceramic heater in my CP coldframe during the winter. Set for just above freezing. So far (with the same cold weather Craig's had) no problems. I use an outdoor extension cord and an all-weather cover on my outdoor grounded outlet. The insulation quality of my double-thickness 6 mil poly isn't great (so I'm burning $$$) but at least I'm not freeze-drying plants. I haven't bought a wireless thermometer yet (although I need to get one) but visual inspection shows liquid water in the low areas of my beds, with some ice accumulation on the inside of the plastic (frozen condensation) and along the outer edges of the beds in closest contact with the plastic/exterior. A small AC-powered PC cooling fan hangs from the PVC frame near the top to help distribute the heat and avoid too many cold/hot spots. Jay Lechtman Ashburn, Virginia, USA ################### From: cteichreb at hotmail.com (Chris Teichreb) Date: Mon Jan 26 11:50:17 2004 Subject: [CP] Online herbarium of Florida plants Hi Steven, I have mixed feelings about the online herbaria. While I think it's a great educational tool, and permits researchers to seek out information prior to arriving in a certain area, I've noticed that many of the herbaria have fairly precise locations as to the area where specimens were collected from. Doesn't take much for an unscrupulous collector to look up the location online. Yes, they could go into the herbarium and look up the information for themselves, but the internet offers convenience and anonymity. Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid, just my two cents worth on the issue, and nothing against you Steven! Cheers! Chris > >Hello all, > >I just thought I would share this great site with people interested in >researching Drosera (or any other plants) of Florida. > >www.plantatlas.usf.edu > >I would like to get any other online sites like this if anyone knows of >some. > >It's kind of nice knowing you don't have to travel around the world to >utilize educational herbaria. Of course to get the full spectrum (see all >voucher specimens) of a given species, hybrid or whatever ... A visit would >be required. > >Take care, >Steven Stewart >Florida, USA > > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Mon Jan 26 12:13:43 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: Online herbarium of Florida plants Hey Chris, I'm more outspoken on this issue than you are. I think that herbaria are tending to err FAR in the direction of making information too accessible. I don't mind site information being given out for common species, but organisms with extremely limited populations (such as rare Sarracenia) should have edited or blurred records. Unfortunately, the staff putting the information on line usually do not have the resources to check which species are at risk. > I have mixed feelings about the online herbaria. While I think it's > a >great educational tool, and permits researchers to seek out information >prior to arriving in a certain area, I've noticed that many of the >herbaria have fairly precise locations as to the area where specimens >were collected from. Doesn't take much for an unscrupulous collector >to look up the location online. Yes, they could go into the herbarium >and look up the Later! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Mon Jan 26 12:25:44 2004 Subject: [CP] Online herbarium of Florida plants On Jan 26, 2004, at 2:50 PM, Chris Teichreb wrote: > Hi Steven, > > I have mixed feelings about the online herbaria. While I think it's > a great educational tool, and permits researchers to seek out > information prior to arriving in a certain area, I've noticed that > many of the herbaria have fairly precise locations as to the area > where specimens were collected from. The admittedly small sample of entries I looked at just list counties, so hopefully that's not an issue. _My_ problem, however, and I've seen with some online "databases" like this one (I hesitate to really call it an herbaria, since the amount of info is really pretty skimpy) is that I seriously question the ID of a lot of the example photos they present. I am pretty certain two of the three D.brevifolia photos are not really D.brevifolia and are in fact D.capillaris. Even as horribly out of focus as the plant is, Image #2 is certainly D.capillaris. Image #3 really looks to me like D.capillaris but IDed as D.brevifolia based on the number of flowers - I've seen plenty of D.capillaris with only one or two flowers, a-la typical of D.brevifolia as published. I've seen a few other databases along these lines presenting submitted photos as opposed to (very expensively, I'm sure) scanning real herbarium specimens, and in cases where I'm familiar with the plants and can easily spot misidentifications, I wonder about plants I'm not as familiar with. Perhaps the people maintaining the online databases are not familiar with the actual plants and are taking the word of people submitting the photos or what, but I would go a long way before trusting photo-based ID to many of these databases. At least the CP database focuses on one type of plant, with which the maintainers _are_ familiar. I think someone who is intimately familiar with ALL the vascular plants of FL to be accurately maintaining this database could probably find better employment than that... :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: steven.stewart at worldnet.att.net (Steven Stewart) Date: Mon Jan 26 12:37:21 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: Online herbarium of Florida plants (Chris Teichreb) Hello Chris, You write: >I've noticed that many of the herbaria have fairly precise locations as to the area where specimens were collected from. > You are absolutely correct. > Doesn't take much for an unscrupulous collector to look up the location online anonymity. Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid, just my two cents worth on the issue, and nothing against you Steven! Cheers! Chris> No offense taken, thank you for pointing out the obvious, that I didn't see! Steven Stewart ################### From: Writerguy67 at aol.com (Writerguy67@aol.com) Date: Mon Jan 26 13:30:14 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Online Herbaria of Florida Plants Chris, Fortunately (for your well-founded concerns) and unfortunately (for the world at large) I'd be fairly confident that few (if any) of those original collection sites still exist, unless they're in protected areas -- and so much information on CP in protected sites is generally available anyway (through national park service publications, TNC site listings, even a phone call to a park ranger). Jay Lechtman Ashburn, Virginia, USA ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (sundew@hotmail.com) Date: Mon Jan 26 13:31:07 2004 Subject: [CP] " Tamlin Dawnstar " Chapada Diamantina "Tamlin Dawnstar" wrote: "The same discussion revealed that the "Sp. Chapada Diamantina" circulating via Sundew Matt is likewise bogus, has no origin in South America, and is likely to be misidentified D. capillaris as well. It too is fertile." Note: This "same discussion" on the CP UK forum was partially deleted because "Tamlin"'s reference to me and this plant were obviously triggered by and based upon his grudge against me and he offered little solid evidence to support his comments / accusations. To my knowledge, I never supplied Tamlin with this plant and he has never admitted to having the plant in question so I wonder how he can make such determinations with certainty. I rarely accept anything he says as fact as he frequently spews misinformation on the Petflytrap Terror forum he moderates. When I started to point out his inaccuracies after requesting he stop spreading misinfo, he and his power-hungry moderator friends had me banned from the site. (But you all know about this) This being said, I myself have become somewhat skeptical of the true origin of this plant (and admitted it long before "Tamlin's" "public outcry" - something which he threatened me with in the past in private email if I didn't do as he said) and I make my uncertainty clear when I offer it to others. Yet "Tamlin" still coninues to try to make me look dishonest for refusing to flush this plant down the toilet like I have frequently done to misidentified plants. Regardless of what is is or isn't, I've kept it for one reason - it's still a great plant I haven't gotten by any other name and my my collection includes several capillarises with location data. I agree with Hideka's logical nature. In this case, I will not say with certainty that it's not from Chapada Diamantina because I cannot prove it. If it looked like an Australian tuberous Drosera, I'd be pretty convinced, but am not 100% sure at this point. Fernando mentioned that he never saw any capillaris on Chapada Diamantina and I trust him on this, but I never heard that anyone who actually received one of these plants from me actually proved that the plant was actually capillaris. I also think it's possible that other people have collected plants there and that it's possible for 1 colorblind person to overlook a small population of plants (no offense, Fernando!). I offered Fernando material for DNA sequencing but he hasn't taken me up on this offer yet. If it can be proven to be capillaris then I'll happily label it this with confidence. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong, as long as I have facts to support it. I have sent this plant to a small number of people as have others before me and "Tamlin's" repeatedly bringing this up elsewhere is not only petty, it's immature and a waste of bandwidth. I mean, why focus on me when someone else provided me with this material and when I admit that it may not be what it is labelled? "Tamlin", there are PLENTY of people more deserving of your attention if your true goal is to correct falsely identified plants.... Unless that's not really your true goal. You yourself are A LOT more guilty of this sort of thing than I am (and have been doing it since the 80s) so I suggest you stop being such a hypocrite. If you are going to be part of an intelligent conversion and make statements, back them up with facts, not speculation. Again, I am not stating this plant is definitely from Chapada Diamantina or that it's not some beautiful long leafed form of capillaris, but I am not going to make any conclusions until I know for sure. There is too little time in the day to wade through posts based on some dreamer's fantasy or the necessary responses to correct false statements. Sundew Matt ################### From: Writerguy67 at aol.com (Writerguy67@aol.com) Date: Mon Jan 26 13:35:32 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Brand New Bog Garden I have three 30-gallon low-profile trash containers attached in series to one rain gutter downspout. In almost six years of constant use (and on two different roofs) I've never seen any adverse effect of utilizing the water on my CP (mostly Sarracenia with some temperate Drosera and non-carnivorous companions (Calopogon, Pogonia, Kalmia, Spiranthes, Platanthera, Gentiana, Sabatia and Rhododendron species). Corrugated plastic bilge tubing connects each and fills each subsequent container as the previous fills to capacity. The third is connected to a 100 gallon container under my deck which uses gravity to deliver water to a standard hose bib. Not much pressure, but enough to water, and enough water for about 30 days of zero rainfall. The only hitch is that once the 100-gal container is empty, I have to hand water from the containers. I'm not smart enough to do a float valve pump to put water where I need it. I've used 5-gal buckets instead :-). Jay Lechtman Ashburn, Virginia, USA ################### From: robins at club-internet.fr (Carol Robins) Date: Mon Jan 26 22:05:54 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Cp Digest, Vol 3, Issue 5 Hi, Yes, quite a lot of work has been done. For a summary, look at Juniper, Joel & Robins "Carnivorous Plants" (Academic Press). For more details, look at te references in this book. If thisis a serious scientific interest, I can send you a few photocopies of the key publications. Best wishes, Richard Robins > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:21:46 +0530 > From: "Dr. Ramesh Singh Chouhan" > Subject: [CP] Enzyme analysis of CP secretions > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I was wondering if there is any information available on the enzymes that > are secreted by CPs. Has any one done a complete chemical analysis of the > secretions of Dros and the liquid in the Pitchers of Nephenthes? > I will really appreciate any info or clue. > Regards > Dr. Ramesh S Chouhan > chouhan@chouhan.com > Bangalore, > India > ################### From: mtalt at hort.net (Marge Talt) Date: Mon Jan 26 23:35:13 2004 Subject: [CP] Brand New Bog Garden > From: Keith Sanders > Some people have expressed reservations about chemicals coming off of > the roof though. ---------- That's why I've never used our downspouts for CP water; just site the trash can out in the open. Figured better safe than sorry:-) Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland mtalt@hort.net Editor: Gardening in Shade ----------------------------------------------- Current Article: Spring Peepers http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening ------------------------------------------------ Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html ------------------------------------------------ All Suite101.com garden topics : http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635 ################### From: garkoinsf at netscape.net (Gary Kong) Date: Mon Jan 26 23:51:05 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Red rosettey things John-- The correct term: carnivorous ground cover. Gary Kong John Green wrote: >> The phrase "Red rosettey thing" was coined by Paul Temple after he >> was over here looking at the Drosera in FL! Bob McMorris HudsonFL > > >Personally, and as one who grows mostly Sarracenia, I don't think of >sundews as "red-rosettey things." ?No, I prefer to think of them as >"wonderful little additions to a pot of Sarrs!" ?;-) > >John Green West Hills, California http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm > > > >_______________________________________________ Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > -- San Francisco, CA World Leader Pretend: http://www.foulds2000.freeserve.co.uk/bushv5.htm __________________________________________________________________ New! Unlimited Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Act now to get a personalized email address! Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ################### From: stephenwd at sbcglobal.net (Stephen Davis) Date: Tue Jan 27 00:03:06 2004 Subject: [CP] Online herbarium of Florida plants Again, D. red rosettey things solves the problem. I promise, last post on this.... ;-) At 12:25 PM 1/26/2004, you wrote: >On Jan 26, 2004, at 2:50 PM, Chris Teichreb wrote: > >>Hi Steven, >> >> I have mixed feelings about the online herbaria. While I think it's a >> great educational tool, and permits researchers to seek out information >> prior to arriving in a certain area, I've noticed that many of the >> herbaria have fairly precise locations as to the area where specimens >> were collected from. > >The admittedly small sample of entries I looked at just list counties, so >hopefully that's not an issue. > >_My_ problem, however, and I've seen with some online "databases" like >this one (I hesitate to really call it an herbaria, since the amount of >info is really pretty skimpy) is that I seriously question the ID of a lot >of the example photos they present. > >I am pretty certain two of the three D.brevifolia photos are not really >D.brevifolia and are in fact D.capillaris. Even as horribly out of focus >as the plant is, Image #2 is certainly D.capillaris. Image #3 really >looks to me like D.capillaris but IDed as D.brevifolia based on the number >of flowers - I've seen plenty of D.capillaris with only one or two >flowers, a-la typical of D.brevifolia as published. > >I've seen a few other databases along these lines presenting submitted >photos as opposed to (very expensively, I'm sure) scanning real herbarium >specimens, and in cases where I'm familiar with the plants and can easily >spot misidentifications, I wonder about plants I'm not as familiar >with. Perhaps the people maintaining the online databases are not >familiar with the actual plants and are taking the word of people >submitting the photos or what, but I would go a long way before trusting >photo-based ID to many of these databases. > >At least the CP database focuses on one type of plant, with which the >maintainers _are_ familiar. I think someone who is intimately familiar >with ALL the vascular plants of FL to be accurately maintaining this >database could probably find better employment than that... :) > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >"We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom >same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ >in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ >life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- >doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould > > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com Stephen Davis www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com stephenwd@sbcglobal.net ################### From: tamlindd at yahoo.com (TamlinD Dawnstar) Date: Tue Jan 27 03:05:36 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Chapada Diamantina Bogus Determination http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1593 Dear "Sundew Matt", YAWN! What, another attack on Terraforums and myself by the ever pleasant Matt Hochberg? OK, I will spare a few flakes of my attention yet again to address this issue, why not? The Listserve is a bit slow this time of year. You state: "To my knowledge, I never supplied Tamlin with this plant and he has never admitted to having the plant in question so I wonder how he can make such determinations with certainty." I did not, this was done by Fernando Rivadavia in response to your inquiry to him regarding this bogus species on this post: http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1593 In case there are any interested Listserve members, (which I doubt) you can make your own decisions regarding this issue. Matt, I'll let your own words stand regarding your refusal to accept "the facts". Again, I ignore your slurrs, but will retain them for my lawyers edification. Thanks for another documented and archived example of public slander. You are providing me with a nice collection of them. Yours, William Dawnstar __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: vicbrown at vbrown.fsnet.co.uk (vicbrown@vbrown.fsnet.co.uk) Date: Tue Jan 27 03:34:20 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Online herbarium of Florida plants 'I would like to get any other online sites like this if anyone knows of some.' Steven and all, Though not an online herbarium as such, the Flora of the Carolinas and Virginia http://www.herbarium.unc.edu/weakley_flora/default.htm is a fascinating work in progress and online reference. On the CP front, it is interesting to note that the author, Alan S. Weakley, readily accepts recent changes in nomenclature, which have been considered quite controversial in CP circles. e.g. Sarracenia rosea and Drosera tracyii. All in all though, I imagine this site is of tremendous value to botanists in the area, I only wish such a project was available online in the UK. We do have very good published floras though. Vic Brown Cambridgeshire, UK ################### From: h7n at talk21.com (h7n@talk21.com) Date: Tue Jan 27 04:49:52 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: Online herbarium of Florida plants >Hey Chris, > >I'm more outspoken on this issue than you are. I think that herbaria are >tending to err FAR in the direction of making information too accessible. >I don't mind site information being given out for common species, but >organisms with extremely limited populations (such as rare Sarracenia) >should have edited or blurred records. Unfortunately, the staff putting >the information on line usually do not have the resources to check which >species are at risk. > Hi Barry, I'm equally outspoken and I have the opposite view. I resent the fact that a sort of 'inner sanctum' exists within botany. For example, Botanic Gardens appear to be able to dig up 20% of the world population of a very rare cactus and sqidge them for DNA sequencing - what happened to CITES etc? And I particularly resent that botanists within the 'inner sanctum' want to preserve locality information for themselves alone. I have half a foot into the inner sanctum so I have been able to visit herbaria, note locality data and go and visit live material in ralation to my other interest (Rumex) even though I have no botanical qualifications, and I don't want to deny anyone the opportunity to do the same. I accept that some miscreants will do damage, but that's what the law and the police forces are for. You wouldn't shut all shops just because a few people shoplift. Anyway, thanks for posting the link - I have material of some Rumex species from Florida that I haven't been able to put a name to, and I'm hoping this will give me clues. NigelH -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Tue Jan 27 05:39:02 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: " Tamlin Dawnstar " Chapada Diamantina Bogus "TamilinD Dawnstar" aka William DiLapi wrote: >"You state: >"To my knowledge, I never supplied >Tamlin with this plant and he has never admitted to >having the plant in >question so I wonder how he can make such >determinations with certainty." >" >"I did not, this was done by Fernando Rivadavia in >response to your inquiry to him regarding this bogus >species on this post: >http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1593" You concluded, without providing any sort of evidence, that the plant which I have is long leafed capillaris. I don't believe Fernando made this conclusion. However, you refuse to back up your conclusion with fact. How do you know this? What are you basing it on? This seems typical of you and this is what I object to, not to mention you singling me out as "THE" source for this plant when others before me sent it out to a lot more people, without the disclaimer I provide when I do so. I don't believe you have this plant and you're making statements about it on a public forum in which you haven't stopped me from participating in. So show everyone how you are able to say with certainty that you know what you're talking about. Based on your ASSUMPTIONS that this plant is a capillaris (based on what exactly, I guess we will never know since you refuse to let us know), Fernando stated that he has not seen long leafed capillaris on Chapada Diamantina. Again, I'm not insisting it's not a lovely form of capillaris but if you're going to insist it is one, put your money where your mouth is. >"In case there are any interested Listserve members, >(which I doubt) you can make your own decisions >regarding this issue. Matt, I'll let your own words >stand regarding your refusal to accept "the facts"." Present actual facts rather than meaningless speculation and I'll be more receptive. But stating "facts" which are really just assumptions based on very little is just a waste of time. >"Again, I ignore your slurrs, but will retain them for >my lawyers edification. Thanks for another documented >and archived example of public slander. You are >providing me with a nice collection of them." There is no SLANDER here on my part. My statements are FACTUAL. Look the 2 words up and you'll see that you're the only one guilty of slander is you. You use your PFT forum to make slanderous statements about ME knowing full well that I can't respond to them there. That's pretty cowardly of you. I've retained all *your* lengthy emails and numerous posts as proof that what I say is actual FACT and as evidence that you are a very spiteful, jealous person. Any lawyer would have a field day reading this stuff, if they had all the time in the world it would take to read everything. Since you just don't seem to get it, I am not competing with you, yet you seem to feel that way and, like I said, I have much better ways to spend my time than responding to you. Stop instigating and I'll stop replying in self-defense. Keep it up and you'll see what it's like only I'll actually back my statements up with fact - the way it should be done. The ball's in your court. ################### From: jsg16 at utah.edu (John Green) Date: Tue Jan 27 06:03:20 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Brand New Bog Garden > "Steven R. Currie" wrote: > What methods do people use to water an outdoor bog? I am > currently going to just plant a large bog planter. Water > was no problem in New York State last year as we had so > much rainfall. I cannot use our city water so I will have > to arrange to capture rain water. Anyone out ther just > stick a bog planter under their rainpipe off of their roof? I have planted a bog under the rain gutter, but it was in Salt Lake City where the rainfall can be scarce and infrequent. Once, however, a sudden and heavy thunderstorm came through and I had a large and heavy stream of water shooting into the bog - a couple of plants got uprooted and a bunch of soil washed out. I solved the problem by planting some Japanese Blood Grass around the downspout (I also had a pile of rocks in the soil in that spot to minimize splashing the soil onto plants). NOTE: I recently learned that Blood Grass is considered an invasive weed in the Southeast, so use it responsibly. But if your rain is plentiful it may not be wise or necessary to position it under the rain gutter. Also, you asked about the choice of liner. I really preferred the pond forms over lining the hole with black plastic, but it was pretty difficult getting it level in the hole. And due to the lack of rainfall I eliminated the drainage hole I had made. Again, you'll need to adapt to your local conditions. And two final comments - Gary: "carnivorous ground cover" - I love it! And to the two FOOLS arguing over slander and lawyers - NOBODY CARES! Not even the lawyers! Take if off the list or drop it - please. John Green West Hills, California http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Tue Jan 27 06:54:41 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Chapada Diamantina Bogus Determination On Jan 27, 2004, at 6:05 AM, TamlinD Dawnstar wrote: > Again, I ignore your slurrs, but will retain them for > my lawyers edification. Thanks for another documented > and archived example of public slander. You are > providing me with a nice collection of them. When one party brings up the subject of lawyers and suing because someone made them cry in an online disussion, that's when they've lost the argument. Please keep this crap private. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Tue Jan 27 07:20:59 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: " Tamlin Dawnstar " Chapada Diamantina Bogus To clarify my last email, I said to "Tamlin": "You concluded, without providing any sort of evidence, that the plant which I have is long leafed capillaris. I don't believe Fernando made this conclusion." I just re-read part of the CP UK post. Fernando said: "_As far as I remember_, this plant has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING known from the Chapada Diamantina. This is _most likely_ one of those cultivation mixups where the real seeds did not germinate, but stray seeds of this plant did and the person assumed it was from the Chapada Diamantina. " Note that Fernando is careful to not state as fact (conclude) that this "sp.Chapada Diamantina" is a long armed form of capillaris, using the words "as far as I remember" and "most likely". Therefore, he did not make any definitive conclusion, but Tamlin ignored the wording and immediately took it as fact and broadcasted it as such immediately on PFT with my name in the heading, all too eager to find fault in me. Like I said before, if you want to identify people who send out falsely IDed material, there a lot of people more guilty than me, who do it without the disclaimer I provide. So my problem with this "determination" is that I would like to see some kind of solid evidence that this plant is what Tamlin states with certainty that it is. I would like to know that Tamlin has seen this plant with his own eyes rather than just accepting speculation as fact. In an effort to resolve this situation, I emailed Fernando right after his comment to discuss this with him privately. I wanted to know what he was basing his memory on - if he saw these plants in MY collection years ago when he visited, saw it somewhere else labelled this, saw the pic of it I posted to the web, etc - you know, "the facts" - and wanted to send him a recent, clearer photo of the plants (or even material for DNA sequencing) for a possible second opinion or for confirmation, but I have still not heard back from him regarding this issue. I have great respect for Fernando, who is my favorite CP superhero, but I feel that Fernando and I still need to discuss this plant privately before making any conclusions about it. Although it was suggested, I am strongly against slapping another name on this plant because it will only cause more confusion and establishing it as a cultivar without knowing it's true history / origin seems really silly to me. If I relabelled it "long armed Drosera" then the same people who have it in their collections labelled "sp.Chapada..." could think it's something new. As it stands, I clearly state that it may not be from CD and may actually be a great form of capillaris. Tamlin has criticized commercial nurseries (which I am not one of) for offering the same plants labelled different things in an effort to rip people off so it seemed like retaining this name was the best thing to do from an ethical perspective, but Tamlin objected and tried to make it seem on his PFT forum like I was intentionally trying to dupe people by retaining that name. It's clear that I am not but I of course can't argue this on PFT because Tamlin and co had me banned. And if I had slapped another name on this plant as suggested, Tamlin would have likely made a fuss over this as well. Tamlin or whoever else is interested, prove to me that this plant is long armed capillaris and I will relabel it that with certainty. But I have a hard time accepting as fact that which has not been proven, especially when it comes second hand from someone who only reads what he wants to read and who is only out to attempt to discredit me. Fernando, if you're reading, please email me. ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Tue Jan 27 07:38:35 2004 Subject: [CP] re: Online herbarium of Florida plants I agree with Chris. I also think that it might be a good idea for herbariums to monitor who has access to specific location data of endangered species.Nigel, I hear what you're saying, but poaching is a really serious problem and I think this data should be protected from the general public as there are slimy people out there who will abuse this info. Sure, you and I aren't going to cause a negative effect on any plant population but there are much less ethical people out there who could.MattHi Steven, I have mixed feelings about the online herbaria. While I think it's a great educational tool, and permits researchers to seek out information prior to arriving in a certain area, I've noticed that many of the herbaria have fairly precise locations as to the area where specimens were collected from. Doesn't take much for an unscrupulous collector to look up the location online. Yes, they could go into the herbarium and look up the information for themselves, but the internet offers convenience and anonymity. Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid, just my two cents worth on the issue, and nothing against you Steven! Cheers! Chris ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Tue Jan 27 08:25:09 2004 Subject: [CP] Herbaria, and a challenge! > >I'm more outspoken on this issue than you are. I think that herbaria are > >tending to err FAR in the direction of making information too accessible. > > Hi Barry, > I'm equally outspoken and I have the opposite view. > > I resent the fact that a sort of 'inner sanctum' exists within botany. For example, Botanic Gardens appear to be able to dig up 20% of the world population of a very rare cactus and sqidge them for DNA sequencing - what happened to CITES etc? And I particularly resent that botanists within the 'inner sanctum' want to preserve locality information for themselves alone. I have half a foot into the inner sanctum so I have been able to visit herbaria, note locality data and go and visit live material in ralation to my other interest (Rumex) even though I have no botanical qualifications, and I don't want to deny anyone the opportunity to do the same. > I accept that some miscreants will do damage, but that's what the law and the police forces are for. You wouldn't shut all shops just because a few people shoplift. > Hey Nigel, First off, I CHALLENGE YOU!!! You and I obviously have differing opinions on this issue of herbarium information on line, right? OK. I CHALLENGE both you and me to try to discuss this difficult issue--with our differing opinions--on this listserve without either of us resorting to the vitriolic flaming that we are seeing right now on another thread on this listserve, ok? :) Anyway, I understand your thoughts about the "inner sanctum" stuff. And this is something I've scratched my head (and soul) about a lot, wondering how to proceed. After all, isn't it best to have information available to all? So isn't it best to have location information available to all who want it? Isn't th encouragement and appreciation of our natural assets best done by letting those who want to see them, do so? Yes to all the above questions. But also, what about the following questions...Should we take special precautions to protect those plants that are now only remaining in about 25 or less places in the wild? Knowing that poaching still occurs and is documented at all sites, should we limit access? While massive poaching events are rare, and most poaching involves only a few plants here or there, should we take particular efforts to protect plants from the major site-extirpating poaching events like we've seen with Sarracenia jonesii? Yes, we have laws and law-enforcement, but should we temper our pride in those laws with the fact that poachers are still getting away with botanical murder, with but hand-slaps as occasional penalties? Yes again, to those questions. We are faced, alas, with a lose-lose situation. Lose free access to site information, or risk losing more plants. So.....I've decided that the restriction of information is the best route. But I'm not saying I've got all the answers, or that I'm necessarily correct. It's just my best answer to a lose-lose situation. Err on the side of protecting the last few plants we have. But perhaps I'm being over cautious? But I don't think so. Sigh. I've cried into many a beer about this. Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: mesa_zak at hotmail.com (Justin Zak) Date: Tue Jan 27 08:48:15 2004 Subject: [CP] Saying hello & collecting thoughts Hello, Justin Zak here.I've been a subscriber to this site for a little while now,but since this is my first submission I thought I'd introduce myself,and give some background information. I've been growing CPs for a little while now.It started when my wife asked me for a few flytraps FOR CHRISTMAS!! of all things.Well, I figured a few plants couldnt hurt(insects excluded) and,as I'm sure is the case for many of you a few plants became many, mainly: flytraps,sundews,and sarracenia plus a few Darlingtonia Californicas.I now seem to be knee deep in a bog project. Apparently living in humid Galveston County,TX has its benifits. I'd like to get your thoughts on where I'm at. I've constructed a above ground bog out of a small bath tub size pool liner.I placed a 3" line on the bottom with a cap at one end, and a "T" at the other. A 3" line comes off the top of the T and will stick out so I can check the water level.A reduced 3" to 1 1/2" sealed line protrudes through a hole cut in the liner with a valve on the end for drainage.This is where I am right now,I'm thinking of packing the area around the pipe with lava rocks then backfilling with a 50/50 mix spag & sand any cautions or suggestions would be great. Justin J. Zak Dickinson,TX P.S. Mr..Harmison, since I live so close to your facility I'd certanly be interested in viewing any new CP additions _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ################### From: mchamberland at cheekwood.org (Michael Chamberland) Date: Tue Jan 27 08:56:53 2004 Subject: [CP] Online herbarium of Florida plants The site under discussion at http://www.plantatlas.usf.edu/default.asp is actually one of the best herbarium sites online, IMHO. It presents plant distribution by county, as well as plant photos and literature citations and habitat types, instead of raw herbarium label data. The site is easy to use and fun to browse through, and really functions well as an outreach to the public. The problem sites are those serving up label data from herbarium specimens, typically with no maps, literature or keys. Locality data presented in this fashion is too heterogeneous to have any practical use other than to locate sites for re-collection. And I know this information is not presented to you by taxonomists, but by part-time student labor used to transcribe label data as part of a short-term grant funded project. These projects are usually headed by database people who are not familiar with botany and the issues of plant collection. They see these online projects as a means to "liberate" data which they portray as horded by taxonomists. In actuality, there is not a great public demand for specimen label data on the web, certainly not enought to justify these database projects. What the public seem to want from my observation, is a way to identify plants. The limited time of the few remaining taxonomists would be better spent creating online keys and plant identification tools, rather than overseeing undergraduate data entry for a project expected to replace herbaria with a poor-quality online doppleganger. Some very real issues arise when plant surveys require the deposition of herbarium specimens, yet the land managers are charged with protecting these populations from poaching. Private land owners will likely be much less cooperative towards biological surveys, if the specimen data from their land is to be posted on public web sites. Michael "Chris Teichreb" write: > I have mixed feelings about the online herbaria. While I think it's a > great educational tool, and permits researchers to seek out information > prior to arriving in a certain area, I've noticed that many of the herbaria > have fairly precise locations as to the area where specimens were collected > from. Doesn't take much for an unscrupulous collector to look up the > location online. ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Tue Jan 27 09:10:13 2004 Subject: [CP] Herbaria, and a challenge! Hi Barry and Nigel, > Hey Nigel, > > First off, I CHALLENGE YOU!!! > > You and I obviously have differing opinions on this issue of herbarium > information on line, right? OK. I CHALLENGE both you and me to try to > discuss this difficult issue--with our differing opinions--on this > listserve without either of us resorting to the vitriolic flaming that we > are seeing right now on another thread on this listserve, ok? > > :) My comments were made in self-defense. It would be nice if unsubstantiated claims were not allowed on this particular forum. :) > Anyway, I understand your thoughts about the "inner sanctum" stuff. And > this is something I've scratched my head (and soul) about a lot, wondering > how to proceed. After all, isn't it best to have information available to > all? So isn't it best to have location information available to all who > want it? Isn't th encouragement and appreciation of our natural > assets best done by letting those who want to see them, do so? > > Yes to all the above questions. > > But also, what about the following questions...Should we take special > precautions to protect those plants that are now only remaining in > about 25 or less places in the wild? Knowing that poaching still occurs > and is documented at all sites, should we limit access? While massive > poaching events are rare, and most poaching involves only a few plants > here or there, should we take particular efforts to protect plants from > the major site-extirpating poaching events like we've seen with Sarracenia > jonesii? Yes, we have laws and law-enforcement, but should we temper our > pride in those laws with the fact that poachers are still getting away > with botanical murder, with but hand-slaps as occasional penalties? > > Yes again, to those questions. > > We are faced, alas, with a lose-lose situation. Lose free access to site > information, or risk losing more plants. > > So.....I've decided that the restriction of information is the best route. > But I'm not saying I've got all the answers, or that I'm necessarily > correct. It's just my best answer to a lose-lose situation. Err on the > side of protecting the last few plants we have. But perhaps I'm being over > cautious? But I don't think so. > > Sigh. I've cried into many a beer about this. > > Barry Someone who is possibly reading this took a trip to Africa some time ago. I got on the phone calling herbaria in other countries to try to obtain location data for him. I was successful to some extent but it cost both time and money. However, one particular institution outside of Africa refused to provide me with location data claiming that they only had 2 specimens of this plant and that it therefore must be threatened. I was very careful to point out that I did not intend to effect any plant populations in a negative way. Habitat destruction is very common in Africa and elsewhere. The worst I feel that could have happened if I had obtained this info and given it to this person is that he could have collected a plant or 2 and attempted to introduce it into cultivation. Instead, no info was released and therefore there wasn't the opportunity to photograph a live plant or even collect any material. It is disturbing to know that certain scientists would rather preserve dead plants on a piece of paper than see them preserved in cultivation, years after their remaining habitats have been altered and their populations destroyed. That's just a bit of my personal experience dealing with this subject. I still think it's a bad idea to provide EVERYONE with location data, but people who have good intentions should be allowed access to it. Matt ################### From: christoph_belanger2001 at yahoo.com (Christoph Belanger) Date: Tue Jan 27 09:14:06 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Re: Re: Chapada Diamantina Bogus Determination > On Jan 27, 2004, at 6:05 AM, TamlinD Dawnstar wrote: > > Again, I ignore your slurrs, but will retain them > for > > my lawyers edification. Thanks for another > documented > > and archived example of public slander. You are > > providing me with a nice collection of them. Derek wrote: > When one party brings up the subject of lawyers and > suing because > someone made them cry in an online disussion, that's > when they've lost > the argument. > > Please keep this crap private. Hear, Hear! Please keep it off this listserve. Thanks. Christoph __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: d_muscipula at hotmail.com (D. Muscipula) Date: Tue Jan 27 09:25:10 2004 Subject: [CP] CPs come to MIT IAP At the request of the NECPS president, i'm posting to tell about the three-session informal class i gave during the MIT Independent Activities Period this past week. There were around 60 people who came to one of the lectures on CPs, and more than a dozen plants were given away. Due to the surprisingly good showing, we'll make the event a bit more formal next year, and come better prepared ... and with more plants. The presentation consisted of a few Powerpoint slides of the different major genera (thanks Kirk and the assorted websites the photos were borrowed from), a lecture by yours truly, and various interjections, embellishments, and corrections by Kirk Martin and John Phillip, who were kind enough to come assist with the packed meetings. A healthy demonstration of plants and free D. capensis, D. aliciae, D. adelae, and DRSs along with a lot of very good questions (and hopefully adequete answers) rounded out the sessions, and all three meetings went at least half again over the scheduled 1 hour length. The photos and blurb are on the NECPS web page at http://necps.org/?action=iap. I had a lot of fun sharing the wonder of CPs, and except for the somewhat bitter aftertaste from having my favorite VFT stolen, i am excited to do it again next year, with better planning and a better idea what to expect. Regards, Nathan Lovell Webmaster, New England Carnivorous Plant Society ################### From: rhillier at swconnection.com (Rick Hillier) Date: Tue Jan 27 09:28:16 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Brand New Bog Garden In our last house, I tried collecting rainwater off of our roof (fairly new) to use for watering my CP and orchids. After a while, I noticed that my pitchers would open wierd and were getting fairly brittle when they were never this way before. I checked the water and found the pH to be significantly on the alkaline side, probably from something leaching out of the roof tiles. I have a neat system now whereby I run a reverse osmosis system into a 40-gallon plastic barrel. The water is pumped out via a motorhome pump that kicks in when it detects a pressure drop on the "output" side. I run this output into a three-way valve. One goes to a regular hose inside the house where I water my indoor CP and orchids. Another goes to a float valve in the sump on my salt water reef tank for automatic water top-ups and the third feeds a tap on the outside of my house where I run a hose from it to the bog for watering. It works pretty well for me. A bit more expensive, but I'm paranoid of roof water. >>> Rick <<< > "Steven R. Currie" wrote: > What methods do people use to water an outdoor bog? I am > currently going to just plant a large bog planter. Water > was no problem in New York State last year as we had so > much rainfall. I cannot use our city water so I will have > to arrange to capture rain water. Anyone out ther just > stick a bog planter under their rainpipe off of their roof? ################### From: vertigo11553 at lycos.com (---- ---- ----) Date: Tue Jan 27 10:27:10 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: " Tamlin Dawnstar " Chapada Diamantina Bogus Matt, honestly, come back with the facts and then give us something interesting to say. In all truthfulness you two sound like children, and do you really want to give everyone the impression that you have nothing better to write about at the moment than whining about not being able to go on PFT? In all sincerity, you both make yourselves look like asses. Written by Sundew: >Tamlin has criticized commercial nurseries >(which I am not one of) for offering the same plants labelled different >things in an effort to rip people off so it seemed like retaining >this name was the best thing to do from an ethical perspective, >but Tamlin objected and tried to make it seem on his PFT forum like >I was intentionally trying to dupe people by retaining that name. > It's clear that I am not but I of course can't argue this on PFT >because Tamlin and co had me banned. And if I had slapped another >name on this plant as suggested, Tamlin would have likely made a >fuss over this as well. Tamlin or whoever else is interested, prove >to me that this plant is long armed capillaris and I will relabel >it that with certainty. But I have a hard time accepting as fact >that which has not been proven, especially when it comes second >hand from someone who only reads what he wants to read and who is >only out to attempt to discredit me. ____________________________________________________________ Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 27 10:31:48 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: bogus Drosera Is there anyone who is a better Drosera taxonomist that Jan Schlauer? I was just wondering(not taking any sides in this) , if a sample could be mailed to Jan or someone else to examine, and determine what species(or possbile hybrid) this plant actually is. Maybe I am being naive about this, but just a thought. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk) Date: Tue Jan 27 10:39:37 2004 Subject: [CP] Saying hello & collecting thoughts Justin Zak wrote: > where I am right now,I'm thinking > of packing the area around the pipe with lava rocks then backfilling > with a 50/50 mix spag & sand > any cautions or suggestions would be great. Hi Justin, I realize you were probably looking for construction tips, but I have a comment to offer on the soil mix. In my potted CPs I mix in a few handfuls of pine straw in each pot. I rub the pine straw between my hands to break down the needles a bit. Obviously this won't work on bog-scale, but maybe you could run them over with the lawnmower or just throw 'em in whole. In my pots it is just a small percentage of the total mix, but I think it helps to break up the soil a little. I don't have any data on the effect on the plants, all I can say is that mine have all done well and this amendment seems to better mimic the soil I've seen in habitat. Happy digging Philip ################### From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk) Date: Tue Jan 27 10:43:05 2004 Subject: [CP] No CPs in Monroe county Florida? Hi all, THanks to the recent herbarium posting, I can see that Monroe county is about the only one in FL that doesn't have CPs in it. Does anyone know why? I'll be kayaking in the area this spring, and I'd hoped to do a some CP side trips. In light of this information, maybe I won't. :-/ Thanks Philip ################### From: GHarmison at cp4.hctx.net (Harmison, Greg (Commissioner Pct.4)) Date: Tue Jan 27 10:46:29 2004 Subject: [CP] Saying hello & collecting thoughts Justin, Glad to hear from someone local. We currently have (recently planted) Sarracenia leucophylla, alata, 'Judith Hindle', and 'Maroon Bells' in the garden. Come on out this spring and see how they are doing. Greg Greg Harmison Program Manager Mercer Arboretum & Botanic Gardens 22306 Aldine Westfield Humble, TX 77338 Phone (281) 443-8731 Fax (281) 209-9767 www.cp4.hctx.net/mercer ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (sundew@hotmail.com) Date: Tue Jan 27 10:52:52 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: bogus Drosera Hi Joe, Without disrespecting Jan Schlauer or any other particular taxonomist, taxonomists are not always right. You would be surprised at the mistakes I have seen certain "expert" taxonomists make when IDing plant material. Fernando can vouch for this. I offered Fernando some material for DNA sequencing, which I think would be pretty helpful in determining the true ID of this plant. It would be nice to do this with other Drosera as well. Matt >Is there anyone who is a better Drosera taxonomist that Jan Schlauer? >I was just wondering(not taking any sides in this) , if a sample could >be mailed to Jan or someone else to examine, and determine what >species(or possbile hybrid) this plant actually is. Maybe I am being >naive about this, but just a thought. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Tue Jan 27 11:01:22 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: " Tamlin Dawnstar " Chapada Diamantina Bogus >Matt, honestly, come back with the facts and then give us something interesting to say. >In all truthfulness you two sound like children, and do you really want to give everyone >the impression that you have nothing better to write about at the moment than >whining about not being able to go on PFT? >In all sincerity, you both make yourselves look like asses. Vertigo, I did come back with the facts. :) My objection is that Tamlin stated speculation as fact and that his sole intention was to bait me in yet another of his usual attempts to discredit someone he sadly fantasizes is some kind of competitor. I'd really like what's been said about this plant to be proven as it would confirm my suspicions. In the meantime, I won't state as fact that which hasn't been proven to me as such, especially when someone as biased and seemingly uninformed as Tamlin makes such accusations. I want to know what, apart from speculation, qualifies him to make this judgement about a plant he won't admit to having seen clearly with his own eyes and I'd like to see it stated here, on the same forum where he's made these comments. Talk is cheap. Like I said, I'd also like to discuss this plant at greater length with Fernando but am waiting for his reply. Matt ################### From: jan.schlauer at uni-tuebingen.de (jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Tue Jan 27 11:05:47 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: bogus Drosera Dear Joe, > Is there anyone who is a better Drosera taxonomist that Jan Schlauer? Thanks for the appreciation, but several taxonomists have demonstrated that they have more experience than I in several respects, and I trust an ID made by e.g. Fernando or Robert (this is no complete list, no offence intended to people not mentioned here) would be at least as good as anything I could conclude. Anyway, if anyone was able and willing to supply a specimen that has at least a complete peduncle (it is helpful to see if there are glands or hairs at the base and if something else is at the apex of the peduncle) one open flower, a few ripe seeds, and a complete leaf (with the whole stipule at its very base), I could give it a try. I do not need a whole plant. I should hasten to point out that material conserved in 70% ethanol (not necessarily of a potable quality!) is usually better (easier to examine and dissect) than dried material. But dried specimens can more easily be sent in the mail. My address is: Jan Schlauer Zwischenstr. 11 60594 Frankfurt Germany Unfortunately, plant specimens do not transfer well by email. So it may take some time (weeks rather than seconds) before I will be able to reply. Kind regards Jan ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Tue Jan 27 11:06:24 2004 Subject: [CP] Drosera of Fernkloof Nature Reserve, South Africa Hi folks, Here's a link to some nice pics of Drosera occuring in the Fernkloof Nature Reserve in South Africa: http://fernkloof.com/allplants.mv Note: the IDs aren't all correct but they are some great pics regardless. There are really nice pics of Roridula as well. Enjoy, Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Tue Jan 27 11:35:59 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: bogus Drosera Hi Jan, Like I said, I've offered to send Fernando a sample if he wants it, however my plants have not flowered yet and I don't have seed yet either so it would likely be premature. I don't feel that the analysis of material coming from someone else's collection labelled this would be as significant in this particular situation since the statement made was about plants coming directly (and not indirectly) from my collection. However, regarding other potentially mislabelled material, I think it's a great idea to have plants identified by experts and think people should take you up on your offer. I had a question regarding shipping plants in alcohol. I believe the US now restricts the shipment of alcohol. Does anyone here know about this and the proper method to ship such material internationally via the USPS? >From the misidentifications I have seen on crushed, dried herbarium specimens, I'd say it's a lot better to use a live plant or one preserved in alcohol to ID a plant. Thanks, Matt > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:05:46 -0000 > From: > Subject: Re: [CP] Re: bogus Drosera > To: "Carnivorous Plant Discussion group" > Message-ID: > > Dear Joe, > > > Is there anyone who is a better Drosera taxonomist that Jan Schlauer? > > Thanks for the appreciation, but several taxonomists have demonstrated that > they have more experience than I in several respects, and I trust an ID made > by e.g. Fernando or Robert (this is no complete list, no offence intended to > people not mentioned here) would be at least as good as anything I could conclude. > > Anyway, if anyone was able and willing to supply a specimen that has at least > a complete peduncle (it is helpful to see if there are glands or hairs at the > base and if something else is at the apex of the peduncle) one open flower, a > few ripe seeds, and a complete leaf (with the whole stipule at its very base), > I could give it a try. I do not need a whole plant. > > I should hasten to point out that material conserved in 70% ethanol (not > necessarily of a potable quality!) is usually better (easier to examine and > dissect) than dried material. But dried specimens can more easily be sent in > the mail. > > My address is: > > Jan Schlauer > Zwischenstr. 11 > 60594 Frankfurt > Germany > > Unfortunately, plant specimens do not transfer well by email. So it may take > some time (weeks rather than seconds) before I will be able to reply. > > Kind regards > Jan ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 27 12:42:06 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 38 Nice link, Matt, though it took forever to get to the Ds, lol. I saw that in the D. cistiflora pics, some have spoon- shaped leaves. Maybe D. glabripes? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: insecttrap at hotmail.com (Michael Manna) Date: Tue Jan 27 13:30:37 2004 Subject: [CP] No CPs in Monroe county Florida? Phillip, Incorrecto. It just means that Monroe County is unrepresented in their herbarium or database. There are Utricularia in Everglades Natl. Park all the way into the FL Keys, and P. pumila in the Keys. Probably Drosera capillaris as well. But you have to find them!!! :) Michael Manna >From: Philip Semanchuk >Reply-To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group >To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group >Subject: [CP] No CPs in Monroe county Florida? >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:41:14 -0500 > >Hi all, >THanks to the recent herbarium posting, I can see that Monroe county is >about the only one in FL that doesn't have CPs in it. Does anyone know why? >I'll be kayaking in the area this spring, and I'd hoped to do a some CP >side trips. In light of this information, maybe I won't. :-/ > >Thanks >Philip > > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com _________________________________________________________________ Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Tue Jan 27 14:39:06 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 38 Hi Joe, You are correct, sir! There are some glabripes pics on that page as well. There's another species there as well. :) Matt > Nice link, Matt, though it took forever to get to the Ds, lol. I saw that in the D. cistiflora pics, some have spoon- shaped leaves. Maybe D. glabripes? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: steven.stewart at worldnet.att.net (Steven Stewart) Date: Tue Jan 27 15:06:21 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: No CPs in Monroe county Florida? (Philip Semanchuk) Hello Philip, The site only list counties where they, or one of the named institutions, have voucher specimens for. The nice thing about this site is it is being updated regularly. I would be suprised if any county in Florida has no CPs at all currently. Utricularia sp. at least. The future is anyones guess. I'm glad you enjoy the site. They would probably love to hear from you. I hope I haven't said too much. Again. Anonymous, The State of Confusion, USA (Please note: sarcasm not aimed at you Philip) > Hi all, > THanks to the recent herbarium posting, I can see that Monroe county is > about the only one in FL that doesn't have CPs in it. Does anyone know > why? I'll be kayaking in the area this spring, and I'd hoped to do a > some CP side trips. In light of this information, maybe I won't. :-/ > > Thanks > Philip ################### From: philip at semanchuk.com (Philip Semanchuk) Date: Tue Jan 27 15:22:24 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: No CPs in Monroe county Florida? (Philip Semanchuk) HI Steven & Michael M., Thanks for the corrections; for once I'm glad to be wrong. I figured that there had to be Utrics in Monroe county as they're so ubiquitous, but I could buy into the thought that something common like D. capillaris doesn't occur there for some odd reason. Well anyway I'll keep my eyes open and my camera ready. Cheers Philip Steven Stewart wrote: > Hello Philip, > > The site only list counties where they, or one of the named institutions, > have voucher specimens for. The nice thing about this site is it is being > updated regularly. I would be suprised if any county in Florida has no CPs > at all currently. Utricularia sp. at least. The future is anyones guess. > > I'm glad you enjoy the site. They would probably love to hear from you. > > I hope I haven't said too much. Again. > > Anonymous, > The State of Confusion, > USA > (Please note: sarcasm not aimed at you Philip) > > > > >>Hi all, >>THanks to the recent herbarium posting, I can see that Monroe county is >>about the only one in FL that doesn't have CPs in it. Does anyone know >>why? I'll be kayaking in the area this spring, and I'd hoped to do a >>some CP side trips. In light of this information, maybe I won't. :-/ >> >>Thanks >>Philip ################### From: jason_petura at hotmail.com (jason petura) Date: Tue Jan 27 15:55:56 2004 Subject: [CP] Bog's "o" snow Hey rick the bog garden of yours should live. I live niagara falls , and had a bog garden thriveing for the past 3 years, Leuco's, Flavas, ping's sundews . I planted my garden with any thing i had extras of, as an experiment, it lived ! Just mound the area up with snow should be ok. Later jay _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ################### From: meadow at bealenet.com (meadow@bealenet.com) Date: Tue Jan 27 16:50:23 2004 Subject: [CP] Virginia pitcher plant news! Hi Folks: I have some updates for you. First of all, we just received word that we have been awarded a grant from the British Carnivorous Plant Society from their Conservation Fund for the Joseph Pines Preserve. We have been awarded 500 pounds and this is only the third grant they have given so we are very honored to receive this prestigous award. The grant money (around $700) is also eligible for a match from our anonymous donor and this will bring the Joseph Pines Preserve account to slightly over $13,000. Further justification for our preserve is exemplified by the fact that this summer one of the two reproducing S. flava populations in Virginia was sprayed with herbicide! The same site was sprayed just after we found it in 1987. The site took ten years to recover from the first spraying and if the frequency of spraying increases we can expect extirpation. The site was sprayed despite being in our states Natural Heritage database and being listed as an S1 species. All of this just supports why the Joseph Pines Preserve is our last, best hope in Virginia for preserving what's left of our native pitcher plant ecosystem in its historic range. I hope some of you can join us for the tour of the preserve in June since we will have a lot to show. Thanks to our British Friends for their support. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station http://www.bealenet.com ################### From: HamirtheHermit at aol.com (HamirtheHermit@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 27 17:51:22 2004 Subject: [CP] Drosera of Fernkloof Nature Reserve, South Africa In a message dated 1/27/2004 11:09:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, sundew@hotmail.com writes: Here's a link to some nice pics of Drosera occuring in the Fernkloof Nature Reserve in South Africa: http://fernkloof.com/allplants.mv Note: the IDs aren't all correct but they are some great pics regardless. I'll say. The Drosera cistiflora link had what looked to be at least three different species, one of which may have been capensis (to my eye). But nice photoes, none-the-less. TTFN Hamir the Hermit "Judas.... Must you betray me.... With a kiss?" ################### From: HamirtheHermit at aol.com (HamirtheHermit@aol.com) Date: Tue Jan 27 18:13:55 2004 Subject: [CP] Virginia pitcher plant news! In a message dated 1/27/2004 4:52:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, meadow@bealenet.com writes: Further justification for our preserve is exemplified by the fact that this summer one of the two reproducing S. flava populations in Virginia was sprayed with herbicide! The same site was sprayed just after we found it in 1987. The site took ten years to recover from the first spraying and if the frequency of spraying increases we can expect extirpation. The site was sprayed despite being in our states Natural Heritage database and being listed as an S1 species. Why is it that the site was sprayed? Is it located on private property and it's the property owner doing this? Or is it public land and it's a case of a misguided management plan? TTFN Hamir the Hermit "Judas.... Must you betray me.... With a kiss?" ################### From: jim_miller at mindspring.com (Jim Miller) Date: Tue Jan 27 18:48:16 2004 Subject: [CP] Monroe County CP Greetings! Yes, indeed, there are a number of CP species in Monroe County. I have personally found Drosera capillaris, Pinguicula pumila and caerulea, as well as several species of Utricularia (including gigantic floating masses of aquatics with both yellow and purple flowers). One location that has not been adequately explored is the area around Card Sound Road, the alternate route down to the Florida Keys. I have found CP right beside the road in the past. However, if finding CP is the prime objective, anyone coming to Florida would do much better in the panhandle area. While I am sad to say that habitats are a tiny percentage of what they were even a decade ago, there are still some very good, virtually undisturbed locations. My biggest heartbreak was finding the magnificent stand of Sarracenia flava (three color forms), S. purpurea and some awesome backcrosses in the DeFuniak Springs area destroyed by the building of a Kentucky Fried Chicken fast-food restaurant. What a terrible waste. Best regards, Jim ################### From: dpevans at rci.rutgers.edu (Dave Evans) Date: Tue Jan 27 20:51:59 2004 Subject: [CP] Drosera of Fernkloof Nature Reserve, South Africa Dear Matt and All, I see _D. cistiflora, D. glabripes_ and _D. ramentacea_ (it looks a bit odd for _D. capensis_ to me). What say you, Matt? Dave Evans New Jersey, USA www.Dangerousplants.com -----Original Message----- sundew@hotmail.com writes: Here's a link to some nice pics of Drosera occuring in the Fernkloof Nature Reserve in South Africa: http://fernkloof.com/allplants.mv Note: the IDs aren't all correct but they are some great pics regardless. I'll say. The Drosera cistiflora link had what looked to be at least three different species, one of which may have been capensis (to my eye). But nice photoes, none-the-less. ################### From: jsg16 at utah.edu (John Green) Date: Tue Jan 27 21:10:54 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Above-ground bog (was "Saying hello & collecting thoughts") > From: "Justin Zak" > > I've constructed a above ground bog out of a small bath tub > size pool liner.I placed a 3" line on the bottom with a cap > at one end, and a "T" at the other. A 3" line comes off the > top of the T and will stick out so I can check the water > level.A reduced 3" to 1 1/2" sealed line protrudes through > a hole cut in the liner with a valve on the end for drainage. > This is where I am right now,I'm thinking of packing the area > around the pipe with lava rocks then backfilling with a 50/50 > mix spag & sand any cautions or suggestions would be great. > > Justin J. Zak > Dickinson,TX Hi Justin, and welcome to the list. I have a bit of experience with above-ground bog gardens, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I currently have two that I've planted in wooden half-barrel planters. I've lined them with a couple layers of 4 mil plastic (or something cheap like that). I initially wanted to use the pre-formed hard plastic forms that go in them but they didn't fit very snugly, so I opted instead for the plastic sheeting. I've filled the bottom of them both (about half-way) with white styrofoam packing peanuts for two reasons: to take up space so I don't have to use so much soil, and to make them easier to move when necessary. I think perlite could easily be used in place of the peanuts. I put a thin layer of pine needles on top of the peanuts to hopefully slow the rate that the soil will filter down among them. The soil in the first one was peat:sand about 2:1, but the new one I just made (a couple weeks ago, in fact) is peat:perlite about the same ratio, because I couldn't find good silica sand here. I also mixed a lot of chopped pine needles in the first bog (and used the lawnmower, as Philip has suggested) in the hopes that it would keep the soil more acidic. As the barrels aren't all that large I only have a single pvc pipe that goes straight down in the side of each bog (open on both ends, no holes drilled in the pipe). This I use to syphon out water if it needs to be moved or right before a heavy rainstorm. I generally water the bog from the top, and have a small pile of rocks in the soil where I pour the water. I've planted lots of different Sarracenia, lots of D. capillaris, assorted pygmy sundews, and VFTs with pretty good success. As for non-carnivores (in the old bog only - no room in the new bog) such as a potted Japanese Blood Grass (spreads too much to put it straight into the bog) and some miscellaneous fern that started growing in a pot of spaghnum. I've got some comments and pictures of my bog on my website. John Green West Hills, California http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm ################### From: h7n at talk21.com (h7n@talk21.com) Date: Wed Jan 28 03:42:19 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Herbaria, and a challenge! >Hey Nigel, > Hi Barry, >First off, I CHALLENGE YOU!!! > Thanks for your personal reply. I seem to remember in a previous discussion some terms I used in a lightweight sense didn't travel too well across the Atlantic! >You and I obviously have differing opinions on this issue of herbarium >information on line, right? OK. I CHALLENGE both you and me to try to >discuss this difficult issue--with our differing opinions--on this >listserve without either of us resorting to the vitriolic flaming that we >are seeing right now on another thread on this listserve, ok? > >:) > >Anyway, I understand your thoughts about the "inner sanctum" stuff. And >this is something I've scratched my head (and soul) about a lot, wondering >how to proceed. After all, isn't it best to have information available to >all? So isn't it best to have location information available to all who >want it? Isn't th encouragement and appreciation of our natural >assets best done by letting those who want to see them, do so? > >Yes to all the above questions. > >But also, what about the following questions...Should we take special >precautions to protect those plants that are now only remaining in >about 25 or less places in the wild? Knowing that poaching still occurs >and is documented at all sites, should we limit access? While massive >poaching events are rare, and most poaching involves only a few plants >here or there, should we take particular efforts to protect plants from >the major site-extirpating poaching events like we've seen with Sarracenia >jonesii? Yes, we have laws and law-enforcement, but should we temper our >pride in those laws with the fact that poachers are still getting away >with botanical murder, with but hand-slaps as occasional penalties? > >Yes again, to those questions. > >We are faced, alas, with a lose-lose situation. Lose free access to site >information, or risk losing more plants. > >So.....I've decided that the restriction of information is the best route. >But I'm not saying I've got all the answers, or that I'm necessarily >correct. It's just my best answer to a lose-lose situation. Err on the >side of protecting the last few plants we have. But perhaps I'm being over >cautious? But I don't think so. > >Sigh. I've cried into many a beer about this. > >Barry > I don't really think we're going to come up with a 'right' answer if we debate this until the cows come home. Complete freedom of information is an invitation to miscreants to profit by digging up rare plants from the wild (and I agree with the 'slap on the wrist comment - the punishment never matches the cost of the potential damage plus the cost of policing and the justice system). And if they get the last one, or reduce to poulation so it's non-viable, the material is lost forever. On the other hand suppression of information assumes that everyone is guilty until proven innocent, and why should only 'inner sanctum' botanists have the opportunity to appreciate rare plants - they might as well dig them up and take them home to their greenhouses and save policing costs. If anyone has any innovative suggestions on how to solve this dilemma, please feel free to air them. (You dilute your beer by crying into it! You're not a closet lager-drinker are you?) NigelH -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com ################### From: mesa_zak at hotmail.com (Justin Zak) Date: Wed Jan 28 07:15:44 2004 Subject: [CP] Saying hello & collecting thoughts >From: Cp-request@omnisterra.com >Reply-To: Cp@omnisterra.com >To: Cp@omnisterra.com >Subject: Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 38 >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:06:31 -0800 > >Send Cp mailing list submissions to > Cp@omnisterra.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > Cp-request@omnisterra.com > >You can reach the person managing the list at > Cp-owner@omnisterra.com > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Cp digest..." > > >CP Mailing list > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: bogus Drosera (Killerplants@aol.com) > 2. Re: Saying hello & collecting thoughts (Philip Semanchuk) > 3. No CPs in Monroe county Florida? (Philip Semanchuk) > 4. RE: Saying hello & collecting thoughts > (Harmison, Greg (Commissioner Pct.4)) > 5. Re: bogus Drosera (sundew@hotmail.com) > 6. Re: Re: bogus Drosera (jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de) > 7. Drosera of Fernkloof Nature Reserve, South Africa (Sundew) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:28:23 -0500 >From: Killerplants@aol.com >Subject: [CP] Re: bogus Drosera >To: Cp@omnisterra.com >Message-ID: <4D7C154B.01585010.271624D9@aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Is there anyone who is a better Drosera taxonomist that Jan Schlauer? I >was just wondering(not taking any sides in this) , if a sample could be >mailed to Jan or someone else to examine, and determine what species(or >possbile hybrid) this plant actually is. Maybe I am being naive about >this, but just a thought. > > Regards, > > Joe Griffin > Lincoln, NE USA > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:37:46 -0500 >From: Philip Semanchuk >Subject: Re: [CP] Saying hello & collecting thoughts >To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group >Message-ID: <4016AFFA.6040304@semanchuk.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > >Justin Zak wrote: > > where I am right now,I'm thinking > > of packing the area around the pipe with lava rocks then backfilling > > with a 50/50 mix spag & sand > > any cautions or suggestions would be great. > >Hi Justin, >I realize you were probably looking for construction tips, but I have a >comment to offer on the soil mix. In my potted CPs I mix in a few >handfuls of pine straw in each pot. I rub the pine straw between my >hands to break down the needles a bit. Obviously this won't work on >bog-scale, but maybe you could run them over with the lawnmower or just >throw 'em in whole. > >In my pots it is just a small percentage of the total mix, but I think >it helps to break up the soil a little. I don't have any data on the >effect on the plants, all I can say is that mine have all done well and >this amendment seems to better mimic the soil I've seen in habitat. > >Happy digging >Philip > >Hi Philip, I was shooting for any input at all,you were right on target! I >certnanly appreciate the input. Perhaps I'll try a combination of broken up/ whole pine straw. I certanly have no shortage of it! > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:41:14 -0500 >From: Philip Semanchuk >Subject: [CP] No CPs in Monroe county Florida? >To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group >Message-ID: <4016B0CA.4010301@semanchuk.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > >Hi all, >THanks to the recent herbarium posting, I can see that Monroe county is >about the only one in FL that doesn't have CPs in it. Does anyone know >why? I'll be kayaking in the area this spring, and I'd hoped to do a >some CP side trips. In light of this information, maybe I won't. :-/ > >Thanks >Philip > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:46:02 -0600 >From: "Harmison, Greg (Commissioner Pct.4)" >Subject: RE: [CP] Saying hello & collecting thoughts >To: "'Carnivorous Plant Discussion group'" >Message-ID: > <5E0839A514B51A4BB3ACDF6E7643C6370106FA96@cp4exchange.cp4.hctx.net> >Content-Type: text/plain > >Justin, >Glad to hear from someone local. We currently have (recently planted) >Sarracenia leucophylla, alata, 'Judith Hindle', and 'Maroon Bells' in the >garden. Come on out this spring and see how they are doing. >Greg > >Greg Harmison >Program Manager >Mercer Arboretum & Botanic Gardens >22306 Aldine Westfield >Humble, TX 77338 >Phone (281) 443-8731 >Fax (281) 209-9767 >www.cp4.hctx.net/mercer > >Hello greg, and Mike its nice to know there are some locals I'll certanly be taking a ride out to check out the areas thanks for the invites Also I have a sundew which is in a small clear plastic pot, since it's clear I can see a couple new growth at the bottom of the pot under the soil. I'm wondering if these will eventualy come to the top,or try to grow in place because of the clear plastic. I really dont want to repot until the sphangnumn is started in my new bog.Any thoughts? > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:52:55 -0500 >From: sundew@hotmail.com >Subject: [CP] Re: bogus Drosera >To: "CP List" >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Hi Joe, >Without disrespecting Jan Schlauer or any other particular taxonomist, >taxonomists are not always right. You would be surprised at the mistakes I >have seen certain "expert" taxonomists make when IDing plant material. >Fernando can vouch for this. >I offered Fernando some material for DNA sequencing, which I think would be >pretty helpful in determining the true ID of this plant. It would be nice >to do this with other Drosera as well. > >Matt > > >Is there anyone who is a better Drosera taxonomist that Jan Schlauer? I >was just wondering(not taking any sides in this) , if a sample could be >mailed to Jan or someone else to examine, and determine what species(or >possbile hybrid) this plant actually is. Maybe I am being naive about >this, but just a thought. > > Regards, > > Joe Griffin > Lincoln, NE USA > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 >DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA >I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, >South America or other tropical / subtropical places. >Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=From >sundew@hotmail.com Tue Jan 27 11:01:20 2004 >Received: from [65.54.246.122] (helo=hotmail.com) > by occp2.ocservers.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AlYSe-0002d2-6f > for Cp@omnisterra.com; Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:01:20 -0800 >Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; > Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:01:21 -0800 >Received: from 68.161.219.75 by bay2-dav18.bay2.hotmail.com with DAV; > Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:01:21 +0000 >X-Originating-IP: [68.161.219.75] >X-Originating-Email: [sundew@hotmail.com] >X-Sender: sundew@hotmail.com >From: "Sundew" >To: "CP List" >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:01:30 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 >X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 >Message-ID: >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jan 2004 19:01:21.0407 (UTC) > FILETIME=[F3C8F0F0:01C3E507] >Subject: [CP] Re: " Tamlin Dawnstar " Chapada Diamantina Bogus >X-BeenThere: Cp@omnisterra.com >X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 >Precedence: list >Reply-To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group >List-Id: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group > >List-Unsubscribe: >, > >List-Archive: >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: >, > > > >From: "---- ---- ----" wrote: > > >Matt, honestly, come back with the facts and then give us something >interesting to say. > >In all truthfulness you two sound like children, and do you really want >to >give everyone > >the impression that you have nothing better to write about at the moment >than > >whining about not being able to go on PFT? > > >In all sincerity, you both make yourselves look like asses. > >Vertigo, I did come back with the facts. :) My objection is that Tamlin >stated speculation as fact and that his sole intention was to bait me in >yet >another of his usual attempts to discredit someone he sadly fantasizes is >some kind of competitor. I'd really like what's been said about this plant >to be proven as it would confirm my suspicions. In the meantime, I won't >state as fact that which hasn't been proven to me as such, especially when >someone as biased and seemingly uninformed as Tamlin makes such >accusations. >I want to know what, apart from speculation, qualifies him to make this >judgement about a plant he won't admit to having seen clearly with his own >eyes and I'd like to see it stated here, on the same forum where he's made >these comments. Talk is cheap. Like I said, I'd also like to discuss this >plant at greater length with Fernando but am waiting for his reply. > >Matt > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:05:46 -0000 >From: >Subject: Re: [CP] Re: bogus Drosera >To: "Carnivorous Plant Discussion group" >Message-ID: > >Dear Joe, > > > Is there anyone who is a better Drosera taxonomist that Jan Schlauer? > >Thanks for the appreciation, but several taxonomists have demonstrated that >they have more experience than I in several respects, and I trust an ID >made >by e.g. Fernando or Robert (this is no complete list, no offence intended >to >people not mentioned here) would be at least as good as anything I could >conclude. > >Anyway, if anyone was able and willing to supply a specimen that has at >least >a complete peduncle (it is helpful to see if there are glands or hairs at >the >base and if something else is at the apex of the peduncle) one open flower, >a >few ripe seeds, and a complete leaf (with the whole stipule at its very >base), >I could give it a try. I do not need a whole plant. > >I should hasten to point out that material conserved in 70% ethanol (not >necessarily of a potable quality!) is usually better (easier to examine and >dissect) than dried material. But dried specimens can more easily be sent >in >the mail. > >My address is: > >Jan Schlauer >Zwischenstr. 11 >60594 Frankfurt >Germany > >Unfortunately, plant specimens do not transfer well by email. So it may >take >some time (weeks rather than seconds) before I will be able to reply. > >Kind regards >Jan > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 7 >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:06:32 -0500 >From: "Sundew" >Subject: [CP] Drosera of Fernkloof Nature Reserve, South Africa >To: "CP List" >Cc: Sundew Club >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Hi folks, > >Here's a link to some nice pics of Drosera occuring in the Fernkloof Nature >Reserve in South Africa: > >http://fernkloof.com/allplants.mv > >Note: the IDs aren't all correct but they are some great pics regardless. > >There are really nice pics of Roridula as well. > >Enjoy, >Matt > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >-=-=-= >SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 >DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA >I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, >South America or other tropical / subtropical places. >Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >-=-=-= > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Cp mailing list >Cp@omnisterra.com >http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > > >End of Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 38 >********************************* _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ################### From: Sundew1802 at aol.com (Sundew1802@aol.com) Date: Wed Jan 28 07:37:37 2004 Subject: [CP] No CPs in Monroe county Florida? ################### From: Sundew1802 at aol.com (Sundew1802@aol.com) Date: Wed Jan 28 07:41:45 2004 Subject: [CP] Saying hello & collecting thoughtscorrection ################### From: GHarmison at cp4.hctx.net (Harmison, Greg (Commissioner Pct.4)) Date: Wed Jan 28 07:57:27 2004 Subject: [CP] Saying hello & collecting thoughtscorrection Thanks, I have already changed the labels in the garden. Greg -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 9:42 AM To: Cp@omnisterra.com Greg, Sarracenia leucophylla, alata, 'Judith Hindle', and 'Maroon Bells' "Maroon Belles" should be "Scarlet Belle"s, a registerd cultivar.(next thing you know we will see "Purple Belles, Pink Belles, maybe Rosey Belles...LOL) Bob McMorris HudsonFL _______________________________________________ Cp mailing list Cp@omnisterra.com http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Wed Jan 28 08:17:57 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Herbaria, and a challenge! Hey Nigel > Complete freedom of information is an invitation to miscreants to profit > by digging up rare plants from the wild (and I agree with the 'slap on > the wrist comment - the punishment never matches the cost of the > potential damage plus the cost of policing and the justice system). And > if they get the last one, or reduce to poulation so it's non-viable, the > material is lost forever. > On the other hand suppression of information assumes that everyone is >guilty until proven innocent, and why should only 'inner sanctum' >botanists have the opportunity to appreciate rare plants - they might as >well dig them up and take them home to their greenhouses and save >policing costs. The trick is separating the good from the bad. There lies the rub! > (You dilute your beer by crying into it! You're not a closet > lager-drinker are you?) Given a better option, I'll only drink lager if you float Guinness on top! Later! Barry ################### From: bioexp at juno.com (Ivan Snyder) Date: Wed Jan 28 10:43:32 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Florida notes / D.sp.Chapada Diamantina >could you tell us how to effectively differentiate D.intermedia and D.capillaris using stipules and maybe other plant/flower parts?? Sebastian Hi Sebastian, I differentiate them this way: D. intermedia usually has more narrow petioles. If unsure, it is likely D. capillaris. The seed is more telling. With a powerful hand lens you will see that D. intermedia has seed coats which are papillose (having warty protuberances). D. capillaris can not be confused with any other look alike with its distinct corrugate (ridges and furrows) seed coat. Some descriptions I have read of D. intermedia say it has corrugate papillate testa. I wonders if this is due merely to confusion of the two species or whether there are really allopolyploids which have escaped my attention. William, Matt has never in my considerable experience mixed up his plants as you suggest. If he got seed directly from Chapada Diamantina I trust that is the origin of his plant. Matt is as we all know supremely anal retentive in this respect. That the plant might be a long-arm D. capillaris, all the more interesting. I would like to study the plant. I hope you have not caused Matt to dispose of it. Please send me seed if you have any. Ivan ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ################### From: massey at fmhi.usf.edu (Massey, Oliver) Date: Wed Jan 28 12:06:57 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Florida notes / D.sp.Chapada Diamantina Hey guys, what magnification are you talking about for these observations? I would like to do a few comparisons of some of the Fl. plants. Tom in Fl. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 1:34 PM To: Cp@omnisterra.com >could you tell us how to effectively differentiate D.intermedia and D.capillaris using stipules and maybe other plant/flower parts?? Sebastian Hi Sebastian, I differentiate them this way: D. intermedia usually has more narrow petioles. If unsure, it is likely D. capillaris. The seed is more telling. With a powerful hand lens you will see that D. intermedia has seed coats which are papillose (having warty protuberances). D. capillaris can not be confused with any other look alike with its distinct corrugate (ridges and furrows) seed coat. Some descriptions I have read of D. intermedia say it has corrugate papillate testa. I wonders if this is due merely to confusion of the two species or whether there are really allopolyploids which have escaped my attention. William, Matt has never in my considerable experience mixed up his plants as you suggest. If he got seed directly from Chapada Diamantina I trust that is the origin of his plant. Matt is as we all know supremely anal retentive in this respect. That the plant might be a long-arm D. capillaris, all the more interesting. I would like to study the plant. I hope you have not caused Matt to dispose of it. Please send me seed if you have any. Ivan ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ Cp mailing list Cp@omnisterra.com http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com ################### From: meadow at bealenet.com (meadow@bealenet.com) Date: Wed Jan 28 16:20:53 2004 Subject: [CP] Virginia Pitcher Plant Spraying Hi Folks: The yellow pitcher plant population I mentioned that was sprayed was on a powerline in Virginia. Unfortunately, utility companies are abandoning bush-hogging for chemical control of woody species on rights-of-way. In theory this cheaper approach to vegetation management could work but in practice it has led to numerous, disastrous results to rare pitcher plant (and other species I might add) populations across the southeast. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station http://www.bealenet.com ################### From: AppleCakeTeaRoom at aol.com (AppleCakeTeaRoom@aol.com) Date: Wed Jan 28 16:54:54 2004 Subject: [CP] VFT Research Hello CPers, Some of you might remember my mentioning a while ago that I'll be working in my University's Botany Lab this semester, and that I had chosen to work with VFTs, in particular to view the triggers hairs under Scanning Electron Microscope. Finally the semester has started and I am trying to collect any and all papers out there that involve either CPs and electron microscopes, or research published on VFTs. I have found some papers, but I was hoping that other CP lovers would know of additional research papers, or sources that I could find to help me in my research. Any papers or sources would be most appreciated! Even a push in the right direction would be a great deal of help. Today we started to fix the traps for the SEM and TEM. I am most interested to compare the trigger hairs of winter leaves vs. summer leaves, and in particular the glands on the surface of the leaves. Thanks for your help in advance. ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Thu Jan 29 05:28:21 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Florida notes / D.sp.Chapada Diamantina Hi Ivan, Thanks for the backup but I think you might have misread. I got this plant years ago from another grower - not directly from anyone who collected it from CD. I tried to track its origin here on the list and elsewhere but was unsuccessful. I myself am skeptical of its true origin and admit it, so it's not a case of my insisting it's from the location its name implies. My objection was that William / Tamlin was stating something as fact which he refused to back up with evidence and that his comment was more of an attempt to discredit me than anything else. This sort of thing often reduces one's credibility and spreads misinformation. I don't have seed of this plant right now but if my plants produce any, I'll keep you in mind, as long as you understand that it's possible that it might not be from Chapada Diamantina and that it shouldn't be determined to be a long armed capillaris until actual facts are used to determine it as such by someone who is qualified to make such an assessment (like Super-Fernando) AND can support it with evidence and respond to questions about its determination. I myself decided quite some time ago to send a disclaimer to anyone buying plants from me. This clearly states that although many of my plants IDs have been verified by experts (such as Allen Lowrie and Fernando), not all of them have been, that I am not a taxonomist and don't pretend to be one and that there could be errors in the labels OTHER people have put on these plants. I am also clear about it when I am doubtful of a plants true ID. Thanks, Matt Ivan Snyder bioexp at juno.com Wed Jan 28 10:34:08 PST 2004 >William, Matt has never in my considerable experience mixed up his >plants as you suggest. If he got seed directly from Chapada Diamantina I >trust that is the origin of his plant. Matt is as we all know supremely >anal retentive in this respect. That the plant might be a long-arm D. >capillaris, all the more interesting. I would like to study the plant. I >hope you have not caused Matt to dispose of it. Please send me seed if >you have any. >Ivan ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Thu Jan 29 06:23:03 2004 Subject: [CP] University of Dresden, Germany? Hey folks, Does anyone here know of someone who is into CP and either goes to, went to or is somehow affiliated the University of Dresden in Germany? Even someone who is located close to Dresden. I'm sure I can find out what I need to through other means, but I thought I would ask here first. :)) Please reply privately. Thanks, Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: steven.stewart at worldnet.att.net (Steven Stewart) Date: Thu Jan 29 06:39:21 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: . RE: Re: Florida notes / D.sp.Chapada Diamantina (Massey, Hello Tom, I have used a 20x hand lens and been able to distinguish seeds of these Drosera. If you have some combination of lenses that will give you a closer look, it's helpful when checking out seed you have doubts about. Steven Stewart > Hey guys, what magnification are you talking about >for these observations? I would like to do a few >comparisons of some of the Fl. plants. > > Tom in Fl. Ivan wrote; " With a powerful hand lens you will see that D. intermedia has seed coats which are papillose (having warty protuberances). D. capillaris can not be confused with any other look alike with its distinct corrugate (ridges and furrows) seed coat." ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Thu Jan 29 08:11:41 2004 Subject: [CP] Virginia Pitcher Plant Spraying Hey Folks, I've heard about the spraying too. The relevant Electric Cooperative is trying to keep the rights-of-way open. They've been mowing for a long time, but as Phil Sheridan noted, they are moving more and more to herbicidal treatments. Now, herbicidal treatment is not necessarily worse. For example, judicious and careful spot applications of herbicide can do excellent jobs of removing unwanted plants with near pinpoint accuracy. Unfortunately, the Electric Cooperative is using in its toolbox an herbicide called Arsenal, which has the active ingredient Imazapyr. This herbicide is a very tricky thing to use, because even if you apply it DIRECTLY to a target plant, it is known to be able to flow out of the plant's roots, through the ground, and be taken up by other plants. So even if "correctly" used, Arsenal can cause significant collateral damage to non-target plants. Very bad. I'd rather the Cooperative use Garlon or Glyphosate in their spray-on applications of herbicide. Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: willows at rose.net (Rollins) Date: Thu Jan 29 11:49:49 2004 Subject: [CP] Fly Trap refs To AppleCakeTeaRoom and anyone else that might be interested: These articles were in some of my old American Journal of Botany. 1. Prey capture and factors controlling trap narrowing in Dionaea (Droseraceae). by F.T. Lichtner and S.E. Williams. Aug., 1977 Vol. 64, No. 7. pgs. 881-886. not about Dionaea but pitcher plants: 2. An S.E.M. survey of the five carnivorous pitcher plant genera. by Richard M. Adams, II and George W. Smith. Mar., 1977. Vol. 64, No. 3. pgs. 265-272. James A. Rollins willows@rose.net ################### From: dpevans at rci.rutgers.edu (Dave Evans) Date: Thu Jan 29 17:45:30 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Florida notes / D.sp.Chapada Diamantina Dear Matt and list, I noticed the emails about there being confusion regarding _D. intermedia_ and _D. capillaris_. I find it rather difficult to mistake _D. intermedia_ for anything but _D. intermedia_. However, I have a very hard time telling _D. intermedia * D. capillaris_ from _D. capillaris_. I think some folks might be getting confused when they see the hybrid, especially in its juvenile growth stages and this helps enhance _D. capillaris_'s reputation for being so polymorphic as most people simply file odd looking plants under the name _D. capillaris_ as a default. I can say that the _D._ sp (from Chapada Diamantina?) looks a lot like _D. capillaris_. I even flowered (but I wasn't there while they were open) the thing and got seed, which I sowed and nothing came up. I reckon this indicated the seed need to be stratified... I can't recall any particular characteristics by which it can be separated from _D. capillaris_, but it doesn't really look like any _D. capillaris_ I have found/seen in the wild here in the US of A. It would be nice to have more than the one clone, to see how much they might vary in form, but even that is not available... At least it looks like an American _Drosera_, unlike _D._ sp. (from Auyan-tepui) which looks South African to me. This is a very subjective statement, though, _D. capillaris_ and _D. dielsiana_ have very similar leaves and growth habit, but are not even close relations. Dave Evans New Jersey, USA www.Dangerousplants.com -----Original Message----- Of Sundew Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:28 AM To: CP List Hi Ivan, Thanks for the backup but I think you might have misread. I got this plant years ago from another grower - not directly from anyone who collected it from CD. I tried to track its origin here on the list and elsewhere but was unsuccessful. I myself am skeptical of its true origin and admit it, so it's not a case of my insisting it's from the location its name implies. I don't have seed of this plant right now but if my plants produce any, I'll keep you in mind, as long as you understand that it's possible that it might not be from Chapada Diamantina and that it shouldn't be determined to be a long armed capillaris until actual facts are used to determine it as such by someone who is qualified to make such an assessment (like Super-Fernando) AND can support it with evidence and respond to questions about its determination. I am also clear about it when I am doubtful of a plants true ID. Thanks, Matt ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Thu Jan 29 18:05:33 2004 Subject: [CP] New Book: Carnivorous Plants of Southern Africa I thought I would let everyone know about a new book called " Parasitic and Carnivorous Plants of Southern Africa" by Struik Publishers. www.struik.co.za It's a 57 page FIELD GUIDE. I have only had time to skim it but I can tell you this - there's not much there in the way of CP... There's a single page on D.alba, capensis, cistiflora, trinervia, pauciflora, U.livida and U.bisquamata, with a photo and minimal info on each. There's also a basic intro to CP. Otherwise, the rest of the book is mostly on non-carnivores. The price was a measly $6. To me, the small pic of a patch of flowering D.alba was worth the price, but you all know I'm a sucker for Drosera.... Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Thu Jan 29 18:45:12 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Florida notes / D.sp.Chapada Diamantina Hi Dave, Thanks for your input. Regarding "sp.Auyan Tepui", I should add that there is not only 1 plant labelled this. I got one several years ago which does look like something African. I'm not quite sure what this is... I saw something else labelled this which looked like spatulata. I myself got 3 more which I am 100% sure came from the tepuis. They turned out to be kaieteurensis, roraimae and I believe hirticalyx. I am not sure if I distributed any of these plants prior to identifying them but I don't think I did. I believe the only 1 I've sent beyond my regular trading buddies was the kaieteurensis. Matt Dear Matt and list, I noticed the emails about there being confusion regarding _D. intermedia_ and _D. capillaris_. I find it rather difficult to mistake _D. intermedia_ for anything but _D. intermedia_. However, I have a very hard time telling _D. intermedia * D. capillaris_ from _D. capillaris_. I think some folks might be getting confused when they see the hybrid, especially in its juvenile growth stages and this helps enhance _D. capillaris_'s reputation for being so polymorphic as most people simply file odd looking plants under the name _D. capillaris_ as a default. I can say that the _D._ sp (from Chapada Diamantina?) looks a lot like _D. capillaris_. I even flowered (but I wasn't there while they were open) the thing and got seed, which I sowed and nothing came up. I reckon this indicated the seed need to be stratified... I can't recall any particular characteristics by which it can be separated from _D. capillaris_, but it doesn't really look like any _D. capillaris_ I have found/seen in the wild here in the US of A. It would be nice to have more than the one clone, to see how much they might vary in form, but even that is not available... At least it looks like an American _Drosera_, unlike _D._ sp. (from Auyan-tepui) which looks South African to me. This is a very subjective statement, though, _D. capillaris_ and _D. dielsiana_ have very similar leaves and growth habit, but are not even close relations. Dave Evans New Jersey, USA www.Dangerousplants.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: john.wilden at hmce.gsi.gov.uk (Wilden, John {HQ Lpl, LIV BIT, LIV RBS North}) Date: Thu Jan 29 23:19:52 2004 Subject: [CP] Virginia Pitcher Plant spraying Now, herbicidal treatment is not necessarily worse. For example, judicious and careful spot applications of herbicide can do excellent jobs of removing unwanted plants with near pinpoint accuracy. Unfortunately, the Electric Cooperative is using in its toolbox an herbicide called Arsenal, which has the active ingredient Imazapyr. This herbicide is a very tricky thing to use, because even if you apply it DIRECTLY to a target plant, it is known to be able to flow out of the plant's roots, through the ground, and be taken up by other plants. So even if "correctly" used, Arsenal can cause significant collateral damage to non-target plants. Very bad. Barry, Aren't companies supposed to do some sort of environmental impact/ Risk assessment before doing this sort of thing and using this sort of product (I don't know if they are-Health and Safety law and US law are not my areas of expertise)? If they are required to carry this out, would it be possible to obtain a copy of the risk assessment? John Wilden Southport Lancs UK The original of this email was scanned for viruses by the Government Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by Energis in partnership with MessageLabs. On leaving the GSi this email was certified virus-free ################### From: meadow at bealenet.com (meadow@bealenet.com) Date: Fri Jan 30 05:51:23 2004 Subject: [CP] herbicide Hi Folks: As Barry and I pointed out herbicide can be used to effectively control vegetation when applied by a competent practioner. The problem is the people who do the application either don't care, are incompetent, or are uninformed. In our Virginia example the pitcher plants were directly sprayed with Glyphosate in 1987. I don't know what they used last year but it really doesn't matter. Herbicide spraying, per se, is not the issue. The issue is getting element occurrences to the right people on the ground who control vegetation and ensuring that they don't adversely impact these populations through time. Good luck! The track record on power line ROW's in the southeast is not good. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Meadowview http://www.bealenet.com ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Fri Jan 30 06:14:41 2004 Subject: [CP] D.adelae SEED wanted Hi friends, Can anyone make me some D.adelae SEED? Thanks, Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Fri Jan 30 07:14:17 2004 Subject: [CP] D.adelae SEED wanted On Jan 30, 2004, at 9:14 AM, Sundew wrote: > Hi friends, > Can anyone make me some D.adelae SEED? *poof* You're some D.adelae seed. (sorry... I couldn't resist. :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: bioexp at juno.com (Ivan Snyder) Date: Fri Jan 30 08:19:57 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Florida notes >Hey guys, what magnification are you talking about for these observations? I would like to do a few comparisons of some of the Fl. plants. Tom in Fl. Hi Tom, I have a pocket magnifier with three lenses 5, 10, and 20 times magnification. I use the thing every day, very handy. The 20X works well for seed. My friend Petiolaris Sean has a pocket microscope from Radio Shack, 60-100X. I tried it at our last meeting, incredible, and only $10. No store I looked in had one available though. I should also mention how to distinguish D. brevifolia seed. This one has reticulate (netted) testa. Doesn't take an expert to differentiate these by seed. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ################### From: massey at fmhi.usf.edu (Massey, Oliver) Date: Fri Jan 30 08:39:02 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Florida notes Thanks for the responses. Tom in Fl. -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 11:13 AM To: Cp@omnisterra.com >Hey guys, what magnification are you talking about for these observations? I would like to do a few comparisons of some of the Fl. plants. Tom in Fl. Hi Tom, I have a pocket magnifier with three lenses 5, 10, and 20 times magnification. I use the thing every day, very handy. The 20X works well for seed. My friend Petiolaris Sean has a pocket microscope from Radio Shack, 60-100X. I tried it at our last meeting, incredible, and only $10. No store I looked in had one available though. I should also mention how to distinguish D. brevifolia seed. This one has reticulate (netted) testa. Doesn't take an expert to differentiate these by seed. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ Cp mailing list Cp@omnisterra.com http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Fri Jan 30 09:25:23 2004 Subject: [CP] Drosera of Fernkloof Nature Reserve, South Africa Hi Dave, I don't consider myself an expert on S African Drosera ID and they can be pretty tricky since they're variable. I emailed a good friend about it who has a lot more experience w S African plants and he believes the plant in the front is D.ramentacea. However, I pointed out that I believe the small blurry plant in the back right is hilaris. He says it's not capensis. So they COULD be ramentacea and hilaris in that photo. Fernkloof doesn't list ramentacea on their list of species, but this doesn't mean it's not there. If they mix up glabripes and cistiflora, they could surely do the same w capensis and ramentacea. I don't like to speculate on such things but you put me on the spot here. I think Robert Gibson would be a better person to ask about this.... Robert, you listening? Matt Message: 4 To: "'Carnivorous Plant Discussion group'" Message-ID: <000001c3e55a$73361f50$87dc0680@acsots06> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Matt and All, I see _D. cistiflora, D. glabripes_ and _D. ramentacea_ (it looks a bit odd for _D. capensis_ to me). What say you, Matt? Dave Evans New Jersey, USA www.Dangerousplants.com -----Original Message----- sundew@hotmail.com writes: Here's a link to some nice pics of Drosera occuring in the Fernkloof Nature Reserve in South Africa: http://fernkloof.com/allplants.mv Note: the IDs aren't all correct but they are some great pics regardless. I'll say. The Drosera cistiflora link had what looked to be at least three different species, one of which may have been capensis (to my eye). But nice photoes, none-the-less. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Fri Jan 30 09:56:37 2004 Subject: [CP] D.adelae SEED wanted Thank you Derek for making my dream come true. Now that I am an actual D.adelae seed (who can surprisingly type this reply without assistance), is there anyone here who can send me some more seeds? I'm getting lonely here and my chance of germinating isn't so good.... :) You will probably need 2 clones in order to do this. Thanks, Matt [CP] D.adelae SEED wanted Derek Glidden dglidden at illusionary.com Fri Jan 30 10:14:14 PST 2004 , 2004, at 9:14 AM, Sundew wrote: > Hi friends, > Can anyone make me some D.adelae SEED? *poof* You're some D.adelae seed. (sorry... I couldn't resist. :) ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Fri Jan 30 10:21:33 2004 Subject: [CP] Virginia pithcer plant spraying Hey John, In the USA, the primary burden falls upon the manufacturer/distributor of the pesticide. The pesticide is licensed for use in various settings---crop, right-of-way, residential, etc. The manufacturer must list, on the product label (which is actually a legal document) the restrictions and directions of correct use. I don't have the label for Arsenal in front of me, but it is presumably licensed for right-of-way use in Virginia. I'm speaking from my knowledge of pesticide use in California, laws in Virginia may be different, but pesticide use in a particular situation must be overseen by a qualified person with an applicator's license. That person is the one who oversees the application. So, sucky as it may seem, even if damage was done to the pitcher plants, since the pitcher plants are not protected by some over-arching laws, no laws were necessarily violated. > Barry, > Aren't companies supposed to do some sort of environmental impact/ Risk > assessment before doing this sort of thing and using this sort of product (I > don't know if they are-Health and Safety law and US law are not my areas of > expertise)? > > If they are required to carry this out, would it be possible to obtain a > copy of the risk assessment? Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: christoph_belanger2001 at yahoo.com (Christoph Belanger) Date: Fri Jan 30 10:23:05 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 43 Dave, You are right on. Having grwon ramentacea in the past, I can confirm that it is not capensis. It is ramentacea. >Dear Matt and All, > >I see _D. cistiflora, D. glabripes_ and _D. >ramentacea_ (it looks a >bit odd for _D. capensis_ to me). What say you, Matt? > >Dave Evans >New Jersey, USA >www.Dangerousplants.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Fri Jan 30 10:26:13 2004 Subject: [CP] Herbicide > As Barry and I pointed out herbicide can be used to effectively > control vegetation when applied by a competent practioner. The > problem is the people who do the application either don't care, are > incompetent, or are uninformed. > > > In our Virginia example the pitcher plants were directly sprayed with > Glyphosate in 1987. I don't know what they used last year but it > really doesn't matter. Herbicide spraying, per se, is not the issue. > The issue is getting element occurrences to the right people on the > ground who control vegetation and ensuring that they don't adversely > impact these populations through time. Good luck! The track record > on power line ROW's in the southeast is not good. Hey Phil, I don't know about the 1987 thing, but a letter I have in front of me from the Electric Cooperative says that they are using Arsenal and Krenite, in conjunction with glyphosate. The drag about Arsenal is that, even if sprayed by qualified staff, it can leak out of the plant. Not good. I'll try to find some time to post here, and at the conservation station at the terraforum web site, some information about this, and what folks can do to complain about this. Barry ################### From: goffinses at yahoo.com (Laurel Williams) Date: Fri Jan 30 10:41:22 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Cp Digest, Vol 8, Issue 43 Hi John, I don't know the specifics of EIS (env. impact statements) but risk assessments are only done after the fact. From the EPA information I found here (http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/herb-growthreg/fatty-alcohol-monuron/imazapyr/tol-imazapyr.html)--"mazapyr is also registered for use on non-food sites including railroad, utility, pipeline, and highway rights-of-way, utility plant sites, petroleum tank farms, pumping installations, fence rows, storage areas, non-irrigation ditchbanks, under asphalt, under pond liners, wildlife management areas, forestry site preparation, and other non- crop areas"--it sounds like it may be cleared for common use and perhaps there is no regulatory documentation required. It may be that someone has to officially document threatened/endangered specieds at the site to trigger any review, or perhaps it's been done but the utility has been cleared for a "take"... I would like to hear more on this, though. Cheers, Laurel Williams Underhill, VT > \So even if "correctly" used, Arsenal can > cause significant collateral damage to non-target plants. Very bad. > > > Barry, > Aren't companies supposed to do some sort of environmental impact/ Risk > assessment before doing this sort of thing and using this sort of product (I > don't know if they are-Health and Safety law and US law are not my areas of > expertise)? > > If they are required to carry this out, would it be possible to obtain a > copy of the risk assessment? > > > John Wilden > Southport > Lancs > UK __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Fri Jan 30 10:51:51 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: adelae seed I had mass flowering years ago and it produced some seed by itself, that I sent to the seedbank. All these plants came from one plant, so it probably was not even viable, but I didn't know that at the time. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Fri Jan 30 11:05:43 2004 Subject: [CP] Virginia spraying Hey folks, Another detail I'm becoming aware of...there are a couple of instances of herbicide spraying that I've heard of in Virginia in the last year or so. I've got to do some digging to straighten out which event involved pitcher plants, etc., before I put out some kind of conservation "alert" here or at terraforums. I'll get back to you! Phil, you expect a call from me soon, to get your info! Later Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: dpevans at rci.rutgers.edu (Dave Evans) Date: Fri Jan 30 14:10:14 2004 Subject: [CP] herbicide Dear Phil and list, I can attest to this. While power lines and roadside drainage ditches used to seem a haven for wetland plants, things are changing for the worst. Many roadside CP locations which had abundant populations no longer do (whether poaching has happened or not). I can see it happening and I have only been going on CP related trips for about eight years. I don't think we should even have the attitude that this areas (power lines and ditches) are good for the plants--while it is easiest to locate plants in these areas (so they are good for something, if only to the folks who want to see them), these plants should be thought of a homeless, destitute and living on the side of the street. Their environment has been destroyed and now they are there but for the grace of God. If this is where these plants are going to be relegated, then these areas should be constructed and maintained both with having a well built road and providing an environment that is still friendly to the natives in mind. I really don't understand why industry seems/tends to hate the environment so, don't they (and their kids) live here too? Dave Evans New Jersey, USA www.Dangerousplants.com -----Original Message----- Of meadow@bealenet.com Hi Folks: Good luck! The track record on power line ROW's in the southeast is not good. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Meadowview http://www.bealenet.com ################### From: dpevans at rci.rutgers.edu (Dave Evans) Date: Fri Jan 30 14:12:23 2004 Subject: [CP] D.adelae SEED wanted Dear Matt, I am trying. I have two clones of _D. adelae_ growing in various conditions with the intention to get them flower for a cross. Wish me luck, Dave Evans New Jersey, USA www.Dangerousplants.com -----Original Message----- Of Sundew Hi friends, Can anyone make me some D.adelae SEED? Thanks, Matt ################### From: Imaguitargod at aol.com (Imaguitargod@aol.com) Date: Sat Jan 31 11:19:13 2004 Subject: [CP] New Posting Posting Title: Need Seeds! Help! I've looked everywhere and can't find a place that sells small amounts of dionaea giant (also known as "south west giant", the ones with the 5cm+ traps). Anyone know wher I can get a few?(Prefferably in the US). Also I need to get seeds for Drosera nitidula subsp. allantostigma(or a relitive of that plant). Does anyone have any or know where I can get it? ################### From: la_islita_de_encanta at yahoo.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat Jan 31 13:37:36 2004 Subject: [CP] Low-Light Nepenthes? Hi there. Soon I plan to order my first few nepenthes, and I'm wondering what your experiences have been with plants that grow particularly well in low light (2-4 40 watt shop light tubes). I know that many kinds can survive . . . but what have you personally grown that has truly flourished, complete with a good number of colorful pitchers, under such conditions? I'm primarily looking for lowland and intermediate varieties suitable for the beginning nepenthes grower. N. gracilis and rafflesiana, I've heard, might work. How about N. ventricosa, or alata? And, for future reference, which of the more "difficult" kinds seem to really enjoy low light situations? Thanks a lot! Christina Anderson ################### From: o.marthaler at bluewin.ch (o.marthaler@bluewin.ch) Date: Sat Jan 31 14:09:20 2004 Subject: [CP] nepenthes grafting Hi everybody, A friend and I are wondering if anyone has ever experienced grafting nepenthes. Gordon Cheers, on page of his book CARNIVOROUS PLANTS OF THE WORLD mentions it, but he doesn't mention how well this technique works. Please, if anyone has done that sort of reproduction before, thanx for letting everyone interested know about it ! All the best from Switzerland, Olivier ################### From: Imaguitargod at aol.com (Imaguitargod@aol.com) Date: Sat Jan 31 17:31:27 2004 Subject: [CP] nepenthes grafting I have heard of this being done. But I've also herd that the success rate is 1 good graft to every 5 bad ones. ################### From: Imaguitargod at aol.com (Imaguitargod@aol.com) Date: Sat Jan 31 17:38:38 2004 Subject: [CP] Drosera Seeds & Dionaea Giant Help! I've looked everywhere and can't find a place that sells small amounts of dionaea giant (also known as "south west giant", the ones with the 5cm+ traps). Anyone know wher I can get a few?(Prefferably in the US). Also I need to get seeds for Drosera nitidula subsp. allantostigma(or a relitive of that plant). Does anyone have any or know where I can get it? ################### From: john.wilden at hmce.gsi.gov.uk (Wilden, John {HQ Lpl, LIV BIT, LIV RBS North}) Date: Sun Feb 1 23:33:21 2004 Subject: [CP] herbicide It may be that someone has to officially document threatened/endangered species at the site to trigger any review, or perhaps it's been done but the utility has been cleared for a "take"... I would like to hear more on this, though. The drag about Arsenal is that, even if sprayed by qualified staff, it can leak out of the plant. Not good. Its a shame that this chemical has been granted a license, given its apparent propensity to 'move on'. What IS fascinating is the need to use it at all. Having seen some of the wide 'lanes' cut in the tree lines (Florida) for power lines, what exactly are they hoping to achieve by this spraying? Is Sarracenia psittacina such a danger to a 60 foot transmission tower? How often is this spraying carried out on any one stretch? Regards John Wilden Southport Lancs UK The original of this email was scanned for viruses by the Government Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service supplied exclusively by Energis in partnership with MessageLabs. On leaving the GSi this email was certified virus-free ################### From: fiat_127 at hotmail.com (Mark van Vliet) Date: Mon Feb 2 01:51:07 2004 Subject: [CP] Dionea seeds wanted in the Netherlands Hi, Is there anyone who can deliver dionea seeds in the Netherlands. I need it for my cousins birthday. (and maibe a bit for myself too ;-) ) What are the types available? Thanks in advance, Mark van Vliet _________________________________________________________________ MSN Zoeken, voor duidelijke zoekresultaten! http://search.msn.nl ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Mon Feb 2 06:07:45 2004 Subject: [CP] ICPS seedbank address Hi, Sorry about this. If anyone is sitting near their CPN issues, could you email me privately and send me the seedbank address? Otherwise I'll just wait until I get home. I used to have a copy of it here at work, but it's nowhere to be found and the address is not on the site. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: brewerce at navseadn.navy.mil (Brewer Charles E DLDN) Date: Mon Feb 2 08:32:03 2004 Subject: [CP] RE: South West Giant VFT The South West Giant VFT is truly a magnificent plant. It's one of the largest VFTs that I have ever seen. I've seen spring growth easily measure 30+ centimeters (12 to 14 inches) across from the tip of one trap to the tip of another trap, with actual traps close to 5 cm long. I'm not sure the seeds would give you the same results as an actual division would, but if you're able to get some seeds and grow a plant that large, you will have one fantastic plant. Lot of luck in your search. Charles Brewer Va. Beach, Va. Help! I've looked everywhere and can't find a place that sells small amounts of dionaea giant (also known as "south west giant", the ones with the 5cm+ traps). Anyone know wher I can get a few?(Prefferably in the US). Also I need to get seeds for Drosera nitidula subsp. allantostigma(or a relitive of that plant). Does anyone have any or know where I can get it? ################### From: Killerplants at aol.com (Killerplants@aol.com) Date: Mon Feb 2 10:07:18 2004 Subject: [CP] Re:Seedbank address Hi Everyone, Doug Burdic from Oregon sent it to me, so nobody else has to. Thanks, Joe ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Mon Feb 2 11:13:16 2004 Subject: [CP] Herbicide > Its a shame that this chemical has been granted a license, given its > apparent propensity to 'move on'. > > What IS fascinating is the need to use it at all. Having seen some of the > wide 'lanes' cut in the tree lines (Florida) for power lines, what exactly > are they hoping to achieve by this spraying? Is Sarracenia psittacina such a > danger to a 60 foot transmission tower? How often is this spraying carried > out on any one stretch? Hey John, The Sarracenia is not the primary target. The primary target for herbicidal spraying like this is usually the woody vegetation (shrubs and trees) that come up. These plants impede access to the right-of-way. Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: vicbrown at vbrown.fsnet.co.uk (vicbrown@vbrown.fsnet.co.uk) Date: Mon Feb 2 11:15:06 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: S.W. Giant/Slack's Giant 'South West Giant'/'Slack's Giant' is a named clone of VFT (it's got at least three that I know about over here!). Like many distinct forms of CPs grown commonly in the UK, in my opinion, it really should be described and published as a cultivar. They should only be reproduced vegetatively, not by seed, or you are not growing the same clone. Having said that, I crossed my 'SW Giant' with my 'Slack's Giant' last year in the hope of eventually producing an even larger-trapped plant. Imagine my disappointment at discovering they were the same clone, within days of the seed ripening! All the seeds are now sown or distributed now, I'm afraid, only time will tell if any of the offspring will grow into large-trapped plants. I wish you good luck trying to track down seed from this form in the US! Most forms of Drosera nitidula (including subsp. allantostigma) produce fertile seed, however it is much easier and quicker to obtain pygmy sundews by gemmae. It might be getting a bit late in the season for this one, but someone may still have some. Vic Brown Cambridgeshire, UK ################### From: nepenthesdave at hotmail.com (David Ahrens) Date: Mon Feb 2 12:16:30 2004 Subject: [CP] Low light Nepenthes I grow the following, well, in a fish tank under 2 36" tubes. N.ampularia. Three forms (standard, all green, Cantley's Red) N.rafflesiana. Two forms. N * ventrata. N.ventricosa. N.insignis. N.albomarginata. Heliaphora nutans.(not a Nep, but it grows well) Drosera adelae ( to keep the sciarid fly down). N*trichocarpa (gracillis * ampularia) N.gracillis (red form) All pitcher well and have good colouring. The tubes are that phosphor type tube (Triton etc), which last longer and have an even light output over their life, but they "go" all of a sudden. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ################### From: goffinses at yahoo.com (Laurel Williams) Date: Mon Feb 2 12:24:51 2004 Subject: [CP] CPs and utilities It's all about the almighty dollar. They don't care about Sarracenia, but about other weeds and trees growing under the utility lines. They want to keep the areas as clear as possible for maintenance and the like. No question, things can grow fast. Herbicides are easier than cutting things manually, I think. And utilities couldn't give a crap about carnivorous plants unless there is legislation and thus a cost factor to make them care. I mean, in terms of pure economics, why should they? It's what ecological economics would call an externality (I think that's the term): there is a cost to society and the world when populations of any species are decimated, but currently that cost is not incorporated, in dollar amounts, into the cost of doing business. ... Even when a company is fined for an illegal "take" (in the case of T&E species--assuming someone cares enough to document the take and sue) the fines are usually pretty small to the corporation involved. A famous example being the issues of the spotted owl and loggers out west. In recent years government and nonprofits have tried to incorporate carrots as well as sticks into the protection of endangered species. Right now it is rare that you get any *credit*, financial or otherwise, for having a T/E species on your property: all it brings you is hassle, from a corporation's point of view. If we can start adding tax breaks or other incentives for properties having T&E species--or even better, increasing their numbers--that could be helpful. However, I don't think this is an area that the current administration is particularly interested in. A pity. Conservation and corporations do not need to be diametrically opposed. However, this is a very young field of inquiry, so we can hope that the two will become better "friends" in the future. Cheers, Laurel Williams Underhill, VT > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 07:37:16 -0000 > From: "Wilden, John {HQ Lpl, LIV BIT, LIV RBS North}" > > Subject: [CP] herbicide > To: "CP chatgroup (E-mail)" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > It may be that someone has to > officially document threatened/endangered species at the site to trigger any > review, or perhaps > it's been done but the utility has been cleared for a "take"... I would like > to hear more on this, > though. > > The drag about Arsenal is that, even if sprayed by qualified staff, it can > leak out of the plant. Not good. > > > Its a shame that this chemical has been granted a license, given its > apparent propensity to 'move on'. > > What IS fascinating is the need to use it at all. Having seen some of the > wide 'lanes' cut in the tree lines (Florida) for power lines, what exactly > are they hoping to achieve by this spraying? Is Sarracenia psittacina such a > danger to a 60 foot transmission tower? How often is this spraying carried > out on any one stretch? > > Regards > John Wilden > Southport > Lancs > UK > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ################### From: w.a.j.noordeloos at wanadoo.nl (wouter) Date: Mon Feb 2 12:42:28 2004 Subject: [CP] White peat OK for Cp's? Hi CP-lovers! The spring is on it's way and it's time to devide and potting up my Sarracenia's. I live in Holland and here in Holland we have many nurseries. That's why there are many companies wich deliver all different kinds of stuf to all the nurseries like pots, soil and chemicals. Last week I visit a wholesaler of soil and bought some peat. It is 70 percent fine frozen black peat and 30 percent white peat 0/10. The pH is 6.20. Do you think this soil is good for any Cp's? In the past I heard something that White peat is not good for Cp's. Is that true? You can take a look at their website at www.trefgroup.com. They have all differend kinds of soil. Take care, Wouter Noordeloos ################### From: GHarmison at cp4.hctx.net (Harmison, Greg (Commissioner Pct.4)) Date: Tue Feb 3 06:04:12 2004 Subject: [CP] Utricularia seeds Hello all, A couple of questions. Has anyone ever ordered seeds from B&T World Seeds? They have quite a selection, but they are rather costly (about $12 per packet) so I hesitate to order without some testimonials. On a similar topic, I have heard differing opinions on growing Utrics from seed. Some say it is very easy, others that there is a pretty low germination ratio. Anyone care to share the secrets of their success (or failure). Greg Greg Harmison Program Manager Mercer Arboretum & Botanic Gardens 22306 Aldine Westfield Humble, TX 77338 Phone (281) 443-8731 Fax (281) 209-9767 www.cp4.hctx.net/mercer ################### From: jsg16 at utah.edu (John Green) Date: Tue Feb 3 22:24:58 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: herbicide > While power lines and roadside drainage ditches used to seem a > haven for wetland plants, things are changing for the worst. > Many roadside CP locations which had abundant populations no > longer do (whether poaching has happened or not). I can see it > happening and I have only been going on CP related trips for > about eight years. > I don't think we should even have the attitude that this > areas (power lines and ditches) are good for the plants--while > it is easiest to locate plants in these areas (so they are good > for something, if only to the folks who want to see them), these > plants should be thought of a homeless, destitute and living on > the side of the street. Their environment has been destroyed > and now they are there but for the grace of God. It's pretty depressing to read that the habitats of Sarracenia, and most other CP as well, are being wiped out so quickly and easily (and usually celebrated as "progress"). There have been numerous postings on this list about the tremendous loss of habitat to development, as well as wide-scale poaching, that good locations to find Sarracenia are becoming fewer practically every day. And while I realize that the intent of the above post was not what I'm going to suggest, it all leaves me with the following thought: Why should someone refrain from collecting a few seeds from plants in the wild? If I were to find a location in an area of development that still held a population of plants I found attractive, why shouldn't I collect a dozen or so seeds from a few plants? Nothing excessive, just something to preserve in my own private collection. Or why not a whole plant in an area that in all likelihood won't last many more years? Now, before anyone decides to attack me as an infidel, understand that I am NOT proposing to do this. Furthermore, I do NOT live near any wild populations of Sarracenia and have NO plans to travel to such areas (I don't travel for business and going to see plants isn't a good enough reason to my wife for a trip across the country). We don't even allow our children to bring a seashell home from the beach if a sea critter is still using it! It's just that the whole situation sounds pretty hopeless, and it seems wasteful to stand by wringing our hands while acres of bogs are turned into housing tracts and golf courses, and not at least preserve some of the incredible variety out in the wild in cultivation. I've heard some who say to do such is immoral, and others that it is justifiable in small quantities (the former often on this list and the latter usually in private discussions). But every time I hear about another great bog that no longer exists I tend to lean more toward those who favor collecting a little here or there. Anyone else care to comment, hopefully in the same spirit of reasoned and civil debate that Barry suggested at the beginning of this thread? John Green West Hills, California http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16/cp.htm ################### From: h7n at talk21.com (h7n@talk21.com) Date: Wed Feb 4 04:59:18 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Utricularia seeds Has anyone ever ordered seeds from B&T World Seeds? >They have quite a selection, but they are rather costly (about $12 per >packet) so I hesitate to order without some testimonials. They're a good company 'business wise'. However the quality of their seed is dependent on their suppliers. I have ordered quite a lot of non-CP seed and generally been very happy with germination rates etc. But if you look at their cp seed list, you might guess where most of it comes from and then you might suspect the seed might be quite old. I suggest you only order seed of cp species where you know there's a reasonable longevity. >On a similar topic, I have heard differing opinions on growing Utrics from >seed. Some say it is very easy, others that there is a pretty low >germination ratio. Anyone care to share the secrets of their success (or >failure). Again the problem appears to be freshness of seed - if you can get very fresh seed germination rates are usually good. NigelH -------------------- talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com ################### From: cteichreb at hotmail.com (Chris Teichreb) Date: Wed Feb 4 07:32:41 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: herbicide Hi John, >And while I realize that the intent of the above post was not what I'm >going to >suggest, it all leaves me with the following thought: Why should someone >refrain from collecting a few seeds from plants in the wild? If I were to >find >a location in an area of development that still held a population of plants >I >found attractive, why shouldn't I collect a dozen or so seeds from a few >plants? Nothing excessive, just something to preserve in my own private >collection. Or why not a whole plant in an area that in all likelihood >won't >last many more years? I'll try to be civil ;-)! I agree with your suggestion in principle, the only thing is proving that the collecting you did was from plants that truly were doomed to be ploughed under otherwise. I'm sure there's a few unscrupulous collectors who dig up plants/collect seeds and state that they were threatened by development when in fact they weren't. There may also be misguided but well intentioned people who see a lot zoned for development and go in to save the plants, when in fact the property owners may have made arrangements to have the plants moved to another location, or other arrangements with other organizations. If you can prove that the plants were indeed doomed and get written permission from the property owners to collect plants and/or seeds, I would say go ahead. I would suggest getting guidance from the ICPS, Nature Conservancy, or Army Corps of Engineers (who are responsible for wetlands in the US) before doing so, just to cover your bases. I know the ICPS has guiding principles on field collection of seeds/plants. >trip across the country). We don't even allow our children to bring a >seashell >home from the beach if a sea critter is still using it! It's just that the Actually, to be a stickler, you should leave the shells there even if they're not being used, as they are eventually broken down and returned to the sea. Natural recycling process. I'm just giving you a rough time John, I wouldn't chase down anyone collecting a few shells :-)! >whole situation sounds pretty hopeless, and it seems wasteful to stand by >wringing our hands while acres of bogs are turned into housing tracts and >golf >courses, and not at least preserve some of the incredible variety out in >the >wild in cultivation. It seems to me that the situation may not be as bad as it seems. The population along the south-east US has continued to grow rapidly over the years, thus there are more people exploring different areas and documenting where these plants are growing. A lot of the bogs lost are ones that are very easy to access and thus very much in the public eye, and are more likely to be reported. Developing bogs has become much less appealing to proponents in recent years because of the mitigation costs. Yes, you can still develop a bog, but generally this means protecting, at minimum, twice the size of the developed area elsewhere. If you develop a new wetland in place of protecting a wetland, it generally means that you'll have to monitor it's "progress" for the next 10 years at least. Are bogs still disappearing? Yes, despite the drawbacks (from a financial perspective for developers), they are still being zoned for new housing. Are the bogs disappearing at the rate they were say 20 years ago? I doubt it. Don't get me wrong, I love bogs and would love to see them all preserved, I just think there is a bit of a perception issue involved here, and that the situation may not be as dire as we think. Cheers! Chris _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Wed Feb 4 07:49:22 2004 Subject: [CP] Seed collecting (was Herbicide) Hey John, (...paragraphs about diminishing habitat deleted...) > And while I realize that the intent of the above post was not what I'm > going to suggest, it all leaves me with the following thought: Why > should someone refrain from collecting a few seeds from plants in the > wild? If I were to find a location in an area of development that > still held a population of plants I found attractive, why shouldn't I > collect a dozen or so seeds from a few plants? Nothing excessive, > just something to preserve in my own private collection. Or why not a > whole plant in an area that in all likelihood won't last many more > years? Contrary to popular belief, the ICPS *does not* condemn all seed collection. The ICPS has developed wild seed collection guidelines, with cooperation and input from staff from several other nonprofits, state and federal agencies. These seed collection policies are on line at: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/statements/seedcollect.html Basically, it can be as summarized as: follow all local/state/fed laws (or other jurisdictions, as appropriate to each country), and minimize your impact. If the minimal impact is too great, do not collect. The seed guidelines give details on how to estimate your impact (i.e. collect only 1 of 50 seed heads, do not collect if less than 50 seed heads, etc.) Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: HamirtheHermit at aol.com (HamirtheHermit@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 4 11:31:15 2004 Subject: [CP] To be dormant or not to be dormant, that is the question. There has been a bit of discussion here about two Drosera species that normally would do dormancy, but have varieties that don't. The first is the 'red' filiformis. I received seed of this form from one source, and actual plants from another. In both cases the plants I have that I looked at went into dormancy with a fairly tight hibernaculum. It's possible that there may be a few that formed loose hibernaculums as I wasn't looking that closely, but they all went into some dormancy. The second is the Drosera anglica from Hawaii. These I grew from seed that definitely came from that provenance. All of my plants went into dormancy, although a very mild case. The hibernaculum were very loose, I don't believe I had a single one that formed a tight bud, the rest ranged from somewhat loose to very loose. But all of them showed stunted growth. So these are the results I've witnessed, with my plants that are grown outdoors with natural light and weather. Not scientific by any means, but of some anecdotal use, I suppose. TTFN Hamir the Hermit "They ask you if you're all right, You say 'yes,' But all the time you know, It's just a frickin' mess." ################### From: cp at pwilson.demon.co.uk (Phil Wilson) Date: Wed Feb 4 13:48:16 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Utricularia seeds I ordered some CP seed from them, admittedly quite a few years ago. When it arrived it was all obviously from Allen Lowrie. I could have ordered direct and got it a lot cheaper! Phil --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://mail.spaminspector.com ----- Original Message ----- To: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 12:56 PM > > Has anyone ever ordered seeds from B&T World Seeds? > >They have quite a selection, but they are rather costly (about $12 per > >packet) so I hesitate to order without some testimonials. > > They're a good company 'business wise'. However the quality of their seed is dependent on their suppliers. I have ordered quite a lot of non-CP seed and generally been very happy with germination rates etc. But if you look at their cp seed list, you might guess where most of it comes from and then you might suspect the seed might be quite old. I suggest you only order seed of cp species where you know there's a reasonable longevity. > > >On a similar topic, I have heard differing opinions on growing Utrics from > >seed. Some say it is very easy, others that there is a pretty low > >germination ratio. Anyone care to share the secrets of their success (or > >failure). > > Again the problem appears to be freshness of seed - if you can get very fresh seed germination rates are usually good. > > NigelH > > > > -------------------- > talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > ################### From: dpevans at rci.rutgers.edu (Dave Evans) Date: Wed Feb 4 17:49:26 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: bogus Drosera Dear Jan, How about parts of the plant scanned directly? Would you consider these images to be clear enough of a positive ID? http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~dpevans/images/U_alpina1.jpg http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~dpevans/images/U_alpina2.jpg http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~dpevans/images/U_alpina3.jpg While this is not the plant we were discussing, it would be nice to know how valuable this sort of scan might be regarding identifying species of CP. I would think even the seeds could be scanned at a very high resolution... Images without even using a camera :) Dave Evans New Jersey, USA www.Dangerousplants.com -----Original Message----- Of jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Unfortunately, plant specimens do not transfer well by email. So it may take some time (weeks rather than seconds) before I will be able to reply. Kind regards Jan ################### From: GHarmison at cp4.hctx.net (Harmison, Greg (Commissioner Pct.4)) Date: Thu Feb 5 06:06:03 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Utricularia seeds Does he still sell seeds? If so, how may I get in touch with him? Thank, you, Greg Greg Harmison Program Manager Mercer Arboretum & Botanic Gardens 22306 Aldine Westfield Humble, TX 77338 Phone (281) 443-8731 Fax (281) 209-9767 www.cp4.hctx.net/mercer -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 3:48 PM To: Carnivorous Plant Discussion group I ordered some CP seed from them, admittedly quite a few years ago. When it arrived it was all obviously from Allen Lowrie. I could have ordered direct and got it a lot cheaper! Phil --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://mail.spaminspector.com ----- Original Message ----- To: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 12:56 PM > > Has anyone ever ordered seeds from B&T World Seeds? > >They have quite a selection, but they are rather costly (about $12 per > >packet) so I hesitate to order without some testimonials. > > They're a good company 'business wise'. However the quality of their seed is dependent on their suppliers. I have ordered quite a lot of non-CP seed and generally been very happy with germination rates etc. But if you look at their cp seed list, you might guess where most of it comes from and then you might suspect the seed might be quite old. I suggest you only order seed of cp species where you know there's a reasonable longevity. > > >On a similar topic, I have heard differing opinions on growing Utrics from > >seed. Some say it is very easy, others that there is a pretty low > >germination ratio. Anyone care to share the secrets of their success (or > >failure). > > Again the problem appears to be freshness of seed - if you can get very fresh seed germination rates are usually good. > > NigelH > > > > -------------------- > talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at http://www.talk21.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Cp mailing list > Cp@omnisterra.com > http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com > _______________________________________________ Cp mailing list Cp@omnisterra.com http://mail.omnisterra.com/mailman/listinfo/cp_omnisterra.com ################### From: jan.schlauer at uni-tuebingen.de (jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de) Date: Thu Feb 5 09:24:33 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: bogus Drosera Dear Dave, > How about parts of the plant scanned directly? Would you consider > these images to be clear enough of a positive ID? > > http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~dpevans/images/U_alpina1.jpg > http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~dpevans/images/U_alpina2.jpg > http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~dpevans/images/U_alpina3.jpg While the pictures may be sufficient to identify _U. alpina_, you have to consider that this is one of the largest-flowered cps. At the present resolution, important details like stipules, seeds, and hairs would not be visible whatsoever, and problematic _Drosera_ species could certainly not be identified reliably this way. > While this is not the plant we were discussing, it would be nice to > know how valuable this sort of scan might be regarding identifying species > of CP. It is not suitable to identify all cps. > I would think even the seeds could be scanned at a very high > resolution... Images without even using a camera :) I would need an example to make any judgement. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Imaguitargod at aol.com (Imaguitargod@aol.com) Date: Thu Feb 5 10:07:10 2004 Subject: [CP] Sarracenia/Pitcher That Likes Humidity I've got a 10 gallon terrarium that's humid (around 80-90% humidity). I need to know what plants were thrive in these humidity (but only plants in the Sarracenia or pitcher plant variety). Also they must not be REALLY huge because it's a small tank. Thanks. ################### From: sundew at hotmail.com (Sundew) Date: Fri Feb 6 07:08:12 2004 Subject: [CP] Drosera chrysolepis, grantsaui - regrowth from stem I have plants of both of these species which formed long stems and eventually died back. I am happy to say that new plants are appearing on the stem, closer to the base of the plants. So, if you experience similar, leave your plants alone and sit and wait patiently until the plant starts growing again. I was tempted to dig them up and inspect but I'm glad I waited. :) Matt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= SundewMatt: Carnivorous Plant Grower Since 1984 DEDICATED TO THE CULTIVATION AND PRESERVATION OF DROSERA I am always looking for new contacts living in or travelling to Africa, South America or other tropical / subtropical places. Please visit my website at http://www.sundewgrower.com/index.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-= ################### From: Marcus.Rossberg at phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf.de (Marcus Rossberg) Date: Fri Feb 6 08:41:41 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Utricularia seeds > Again the problem appears to be freshness of seed > - if you can get very fresh seed germination rates are > usually good. I observed the same thing. I had quite decent success with germinating older terrestrial utric seed in pure de-ionised water, though. As soon as the seed germinates, transplant the seedling into the preferred medium. Marcus http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~mr30/cp ################### From: bioexp at juno.com (Ivan Snyder) Date: Fri Feb 6 08:57:20 2004 Subject: [CP] Tribute Dear friends, Today I am saying my final goodbye to my beloved grandmother, Ruth Weaver. She lived to the age of 98. I decided to write something here since it just occurred to me that it was my grandmother I emulated the interest in horticulture. It was she in fact that gave me my first CP when I was a child. She has mainly her African Violets, but grew all sorts of things. I'm sure she would have been proud of me if I could tell her all that I achieved in this interest. Here is a list: My first of many publications was on the evolution of Venus' Flytrap back in 1985. I have travelled around the world to see the plants in nature. I have lectured at society meetings, an elementary school, and even a university. Just recently I made front page news in two local newspapers on the interest. Quite a lot now that I think about it. Quite a rewarding interest; I should say daily interest thanks to this listserve. Cheers. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ################### From: AppleCakeTeaRoom at aol.com (AppleCakeTeaRoom@aol.com) Date: Mon Feb 9 05:38:25 2004 Subject: [CP] Seeds from the ICPS Seedbank Hey Gang, I recieved my package of seeds from the ICPS Seed Bank last week, and included among my seeds where S. rubra ssp. jonesii. There was a letter along with the seeds explaining that the S. rubra seeds could not be planted on Federal property, and it said so on the seeds' pouch too. I'm really curious to find out why they can't be planted on Federal property, LOL, not that I was ever planning on planting them on Federal property mind you! Thanks a bunch :o) ################### From: MBrausse at t-online.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Michael_Brau=DFe?=) Date: Mon Feb 9 10:27:23 2004 Subject: [CP] New Adress I have a new Mail Adress michael_brausse@onlinehome.de ################### From: JDPDX at aol.com (JDPDX@aol.com) Date: Mon Feb 9 11:03:29 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Sarracenia in terrariums >I've got a 10 gallon terrarium that's humid (around 80-90% humidity). I >need to know what plants were thrive in these humidity (but only plants >in the Sarracenia or pitcher plant variety). Also they must not be REALLY >huge because it's a small tank. Thanks. You could get away with S. purpurea and S. psittacina for awhile in a tank like this, but Sarracenia grow 100% better as outdoor container plants depending upon what part of the country you live in. They don't like having their dormancy taken away. Terrariums are much better suited for tropicals such as Nepenthes, Heliamphora and Cephalotus. Cephalotus isn't entirely tropical, but does very well in terrariums. Jeff Portland, OR ################### From: bamrice at ucdavis.edu (Barry A. Rice) Date: Mon Feb 9 11:40:20 2004 Subject: [CP] Seed bank Hello Christine the College Student, Those restrictions re: planting the seeds came to us from the US Fish & Wildlife Service as one of their requirements for us, in order for us to be allowed to distribute species that are classified as Threatened or Endangered in the US Endangered Species Act. Cheers Barry, the Former College Student >Hey Gang, >I recieved my package of seeds from the ICPS Seed Bank last week, and >included among my seeds where S. rubra ssp. jonesii. There was a letter >along with the seeds explaining that the S. rubra seeds could not be >planted on Federal property, and it said so on the seeds' pouch too. I'm >really curious to find out why they can't be planted on Federal property, >LOL, not that I was ever planning on planting them on Federal property >mind you! >Thanks a bunch :o) >~Christine the College Student >& Lucy the Giant Schnauzer >http://www.geocities.com/lucythegiantschnauzer/ >http://www.geocities.com/giant_carnivorous_plants/ ------------------------ Barry A. Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: alexnetherton at charter.net (Alex Netherton) Date: Mon Feb 9 11:47:03 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Grandmother Ivan, I am sorry for your loss, but am glad thaat such a person could pass on not only her genes but her passions. May she walk amongst lovely flowers. Alex ################### From: reshands at webtv.net (Robert Shands) Date: Mon Feb 9 12:42:04 2004 Subject: [CP] Re: Tribute Ivan, I am sorry for your loss. My prayers will be for you on this sad occasion. It will take a lot for you to remain strong , but I know you will be. My mother was in to African Violets too............ Robert Shands ################### From: Superimposedhope at aol.com (Superimposedhope@aol.com) Date: Mon Feb 9 19:44:02 2004 Subject: [CP] New member Hi everyone, My name is Joe and I collect really any plants of interest. I already collect many cactus and epiphytes (not orchids or broms) and have recently begun the collection carnivores. My first will be a Nep. truncata and a couple common Dio. muscipula. Both will be in large terrariums. Any advice is always appreciated. I am usually a regular contributor to the groups I belong to, only leaving myself out in taxonomical discussions. ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Mon Feb 9 20:10:52 2004 Subject: [CP] P.ionantha? So with the wife out of town, I decided to take a mad road trip and drove the ~300 miles each way from my house up to the Appalachicola National Forest this weekend in search of one of the very few Florida-native CP I haven't spotted yet: P.ionantha. Long story short, my bum still aches, gas prices are getting stupid, and yes, I am pretty sure I did finally get the chance to see this plant in the wild. I also saw a few other disturbing sights. Along the way to a location I had been told about, are several spots for some other Panhandle favorites, Sarracnenia purpurea ssp "whatever the heck it is they're calling it this week" also sometimes known as S.rosea or S.purpurea ssp. venosa var. burkeii - but just "Sarracenia whatever" by me. Astonishingly, in all but one location where I've visited these plants on numerous occasions, they were totally missing. There were no overt signs of poaching, and all the other plants were flourishing. Even when they mow the road-side locations, the rosettes remain and are easy to spot by color. It was as if they had never been there. Also along the way is a site I know about where P.planifolia grows like weeds across huge swaths of land. Or water as the case may be, since they're usually growing totally submerged. And quite happily. I found the right spot, slogged through the muddy water and sure enough, P.planifolia everywhere, a good 6" underwater, flowering like.... happy little plants I guess. I finally got to the location I was told about for P.ionantha and it looked like it had experienced a burn in the last few weeks and there was no sign whatsoever of the elusive (and endangered) P.ionantha. I hunted around for a good 45 minutes and only found the remnants of a few fire-blacked S.psittacina and S.flava pitchers. Anyone know what effect a fire this time of year would have on Pinguicula? It looks like the fire probably happened just before the last set of heavy rains because even where the water was 6-8" deep, the ground was blackened and the plants there were burnt to the roots. Judging from nearby areas, the grasses were probably tinder dry and a foot or more thick throughout and it looks like the fire burned hot and low and fast. If P.ionantha had started to send up flowers when a fire like that comes through, what effect will that have on the local population? Not totally discouraged, I started hunting around similar nearby areas that hadn't been affected by the fire. After squelching through icy, muddy water (the air temp had dropped to about 45 as a cold front came through) for a good hour, and with sunlight waning, I had given up the search and was walking back to the car, (can you see it coming yet?) keeping an eye on my footing, (wait for it...) avoiding the obviously squishy areas, what do I see but (and there we go!) a little rosette of lime-green leaves with a little white flower springing up from the center. The flower hadn't totally opened, so I gently prodded it to see if the petals were deeply notched like P.planifolia, or only slightly notched. Sure enough, just barely notched. Deep purple throat, and... yep, there's that bright orangey-yellow "tongue" sticking out. Whoopie! Or at least "whoopie" to the extent I can ID Pings. I'm sure it wasn't anything else than possibly an oddly-colored P.planifolia, but the notches in the petals were vastly shallower from the P.planifolia I had seen a few miles back, so I was pretty certain of "Whoopie!" I looked around for a while and only found nine plants (heh heh.. "The Nine Pings of Power...." ahem...) in an area only a few meters square. Sadly enough for me, the light was rapidly fading and of the few photos I managed to get at all with the digital, only two turned out. I'll have to wait for the film to come back to see if any of the 35mm photos came out. (And like I always do, I had forgotten my tripod, so all the photos were handheld... one of these days I'll learn to just leave the tripod in the car.) Missing Sarracenia, burned Pings, tiny populations... *sigh* Still, I know I'll do this again in two or three more months when the pitchers start to come up. Photos from the trip: http://gallery.illusionary.com/pionantha2004 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Support Electronic Freedom same way: naked; screaming; soaked | http://www.eff.org/ in blood. But if you live your | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ life right, that kind of thing |--------------------------- doesn't have to stop there." -- Dana Gould ################### From: dglidden at illusionary.com (Derek Glidden) Date: Mon Feb 9 20:15:56 2004 Subject: [CP] New member On Feb 9, 2004, at 10:43 PM, Superimposedhope@aol.com wrote: > appreciated. I am usually a regular contributor to the groups I belong > to, only > leaving myself out in taxonomical discussions. Sarracenia rosea! Bleah! Drosera capillaris! Bleah! Bleah!! [sticks thumbs in ears, waggles fingers around, sticks tongue out] :) Seriously though, welcome to the group! Try not to take anything too seriously and you'll enjoy it! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "We all enter this world in the | Sup