################### From: bioexp@juno.com Tue Jan 1 11:20:36 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:17:45 -0800 Subject: Re: Supposed New Drosera Species >>Taxonomic level is something that we'll be discussing in our graves, it'll never be agreed upon 100%. I guess before they were published people would've also considered those news Byblis as subspecies of B.liniflora. Fernando Rivadavia >>Personal communication with Allen Lowrie 2 days ago, said you're opening up a Pandora's Box you don't want to get involved with until more information is gathered, but to simply pick one group of plants out of a very large complex with so much variation, the legitimacy of the new species is questionable at best. Petiolaris Sean Hi Fernando, Sean, and all, Yes, it seems at times like taxonomy and nomenclature are more of a philosophy than a science. It need not always be that way. Take the example of the split-up of Byblis linifolia as Fernando mentions above. No one can now argue against this split-up. Do you know why? It was Barry Meyers-Rice that proved that these now separate species cannot be hybridized. Since a species is a breeding pool and the different forms of Byblis cannot interbreed, they must then be iron clad separate species. This case of Byblis has more of a mathematical exactness of true science. As I understand it, the forms Drosera indica in the beginning were separate species, D. serpens, D. purpurascens, D. augustifolia, and D. finlaysoniana. Then Diels came along and labeled them all D. indica. I would like to see more work such as Barry did before specific labeling takes place. Then Pandora's box might not be opened-up at all. Happy New Year! -Ivan http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: edwards@sympac.com.au Tue Jan 1 13:22:21 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:21:13 +1100 Subject: Toothless VFT Hi everyone, Approaching mid summer here in Australia, and the CPs are growing well. I have a VFT ("Big Mouth" variety) which I've noticed has some strange traps growing. Most traps on the plant are normal (and quite large at this time of year), however I notice that on the plant there's about 3 or 4 "toothless" traps. They are completely without "teeth", and the edges of the traps are completely smooth. They still have the trigger hairs, and still close like all other traps (although I s'pose they would be less effective at trapping their prey). I've been growing VFTs for more years than I care to remember, and never seen this before. The same plant (which is now several years old) has never done this before. I initially thought something had eaten the edges of the traps, but this isn't the case. They are actually growing like this. Any ideas? Paul Edwards. If anyone's interested, I could probably try to get a close up photo of the traps, and post it on the web. ################### From: weststar59@yahoo.com Tue Jan 1 20:22:40 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:22:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Genlisea trap cuttings Can someone tell me if you need just a piece of root or the whole, folked trap to get a new plant? The plant I'm trying to propagate is Genlisea Hispidula. Thanks in advance. Gene Viola Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Wed Jan 2 00:37:00 2002 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:37:29 +0100 Subject: Re: New _Heliamphora_ & _Drosera_ Dear Fernando, > Who are the authors? Messrs. Andreas Wistuba, Peter Harbarth, and Thomas Carow. > Did you observe these glands elsewhere on the plants? They are probably *not* glands, as they do not appear to secrete anything. They are present at the base of leaves (even in some bracts, which are directly derived from leaves). I did not see them elsewhere. Kind regards Jan ################### From: fabien.zunino@univ-poitiers.fr Wed Jan 2 02:45:54 2002 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 11:51:17 +0100 Subject: Search article about Genlisea Hi all, I search the following article about the genus Genlisea: Revision of the genus Genlisea (Lentibulariaceae) in Africa and Madagascar with Notes on ecology and phytogeography, Nordic Journal of Botany (20: 291-318) Thank you, Regards, ****** Happy New Year 2002 ******** Fabien ZUNINO New e-mail (fabien.zunino@free.fr) ################### From: bllorber@wcvt.com Wed Jan 2 05:53:58 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:53:46 -0500 Subject: Pure water source I was just reading the new issue of CP newsletter. On page 118 under "News and Views" a grower recommends using water collected from dehumidifiers or air conditioners. This sound like a great source of free water but I seem to remember a discussion on this list about "problems" with this water source. Can someone refresh my memory on this issue. Thanks! Bryan Charlotte, Vermont U.S.A ################### From: massey@fmhi.usf.edu Wed Jan 2 07:28:32 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:25:50 -0500 Subject: RE: Pure water source FWIW: I have used condensate on occasion, although I don't now. I also know several other growers who use it without any reported problems. However, I know a cactus grower who does not use it (based on discussions on the cactus group) because the evaporator trays are usually copper and supposedly there is a lot of copper leeched out of the system into the water. Of course, here in the U.S. almost all water pipes are copper, so that logic escapes me. Tom in Fl. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:00 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP I was just reading the new issue of CP newsletter. On page 118 under "News and Views" a grower recommends using water collected from dehumidifiers or air conditioners. This sound like a great source of free water but I seem to remember a discussion on this list about "problems" with this water source. Can someone refresh my memory on this issue. Thanks! Bryan Charlotte, Vermont U.S.A ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 2 07:31:26 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 07:31:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Pure water source On Wed, 2 Jan 2002, Bryan and Leslie Lorber wrote: > > I was just reading the new issue of CP newsletter. On page 118 under "News > and Views" > a grower recommends using water collected from dehumidifiers or air > conditioners. This sound like a great source of free water but I seem to > remember a discussion on this list about "problems" with this water source. > Can someone refresh my memory on this issue. Water from those sources may be contaminated with copper or other metallic ions. So-called "pure" water is very reactive and corrosive--water is chemically "happier" if some ions are dissolved in it, so high purity water tends to attack any oxidizable surface, such as bare metal. Most air conditioners and dehumidifiers have metallic pipe and condensor surfacers, so if the water has been in contact with the surfaces for very long before it is collected, it may be contaminated. That's why water used in molecular biology and quantitative chemistry labs is glass-distilled and allowed to contact only glass or PVC, teflon, or polypropylene plastic surfaces. Use an inexpensive continuity meter that measures dissolved ions to check the purity of the water from such household condensor sources. Sean Barry ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Wed Jan 2 07:50:15 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:43:51 -0500 Subject: trade partners Hello all & Happy New Year! I am interested in finding growers willing to trade plant material. I don't have anything to sell, only trade. I have the following rooted Nepenthes cuttings available for trade as soon as Michigan weather permits safe shipping. N. alata N. x coccinia N. rafflesiana (TC) N. x 'Judith Finn' (TC) N. gracilis N. ventricosa (several forms) N. mirabilis N. burkei N. maxima N. albomarginata N. tobiaca x maxima N. x wrigleyana I am most interested in expanding our Drosera and Pinguicula collections, but am also looking for additional Heliamphora and Darlingtonia plants. Please contact me off list if you are interested in trading If you have an educational or public collection and are interested in acquiring some of the listed Nepenthes cuttings, please contact me off list as well. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: massey@fmhi.usf.edu Wed Jan 2 08:01:14 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:58:35 -0500 Subject: RE: trade partners Steve: I have been out for a while with the the hoildays. I hope the N. distillatoria made it safely? Tom in Fl. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 10:55 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hello all & Happy New Year! I am interested in finding growers willing to trade plant material. I don't have anything to sell, only trade. I have the following rooted Nepenthes cuttings available for trade as soon as Michigan weather permits safe shipping. N. alata N. x coccinia N. rafflesiana (TC) N. x 'Judith Finn' (TC) N. gracilis N. ventricosa (several forms) N. mirabilis N. burkei N. maxima N. albomarginata N. tobiaca x maxima N. x wrigleyana I am most interested in expanding our Drosera and Pinguicula collections, but am also looking for additional Heliamphora and Darlingtonia plants. Please contact me off list if you are interested in trading If you have an educational or public collection and are interested in acquiring some of the listed Nepenthes cuttings, please contact me off list as well. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: sschane@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 2 08:21:39 2002 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 08:21:04 -0800 Subject: Newspaper article about CPs In today's issue (Wednesday January 2, 2002) of the San Diego Union Tribune there is an article in the science section (called "Quest") about CPs and in particular hunting for a rare variety of Nepenthes in Borneo. You can view the article on-line (there are some nice photos too) by going to: www.uniontribune.com Then from the left-hand column of choices click on "Quest". The title of the article is "Hunting the Hunters". It is definitely worth reading. Sanford ################### From: rogier_hier@hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 14:42:00 2002 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:41:58 +0100 Subject: cut flower stalks after Sarracenia division? Gents, Some people advice to cut new emerging flower stalks from just divided Sarracenia's, to let not exhaust the recovering plant to much. Some people don't mind it. Last year I didn't cut off the flower stalks, but I am considering to cut off the half this year. But before I loose a lot of those beautiful flowers, what are your experiences with this? Thanks! Kind regards from Rogier, The Netherlands. Chat on line met vrienden en probeer MSN Messenger uit: http://messenger.msn.nl ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Wed Jan 2 18:39:38 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 08:35:49 +0600 Subject: Nepenthes & cryogenics Help needed: I have recently been contacted by assistants to Marc Quin, a high profile artist in the UK who will shortly be exhibiting his work at a major art museum. One of the works requires a Nepenthes plant which will be permanently preserved in a specially designed cryogenic cabinet. The plant must be less than 30cm in diameter and with several large pitchers and will need to be couriered to the museum on a specific date for treatment. The artist is prepared to pay a suitable price for the right plant. Unfortunately, while we could help in that we have suitable plants here in Sri Lanka, the cumbersome CITES permit process makes it difficult for us to ship in time. The lucky plant is therefore being sought from within Europe. If you think you may have a suitable plant in your Nepenthes collection, then please contact me directly and I will put you in touch with the artist's office. Don't miss this unique chance to have your favourite plant preserved for posterity and gawked at by thousands! Happy New Year Everyone! Rob Canrtley Borneo Exotics http://www.borneoexotics.com ################### From: interbnk@terra.com.gt Wed Jan 2 18:43:04 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:40:59 -0600 Subject: Treatment of Nepenthes leaf blights? Greetings! I was wondering whether members of this forum can recommend a contact fungicide to control the "red spot" leaf blight that occurs on some Neppies from time to time. I have been using benomyl for control, but I have recently innoculated my growing media with Trichoderma, and am loathe to start spraying a systemic fungicide again before I can evaluate the results of this experiment. Fortunately, due to past control sprays, my current outbreak is very limited in scope, but I don't want to see it spread. Cheerio, Jay ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Wed Jan 2 19:36:42 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 22:36:24 EST Subject: Re: Newspaper article about CPs In a message dated 1/2/02 8:24:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, sschane@ucsd.edu writes: > In today's issue (Wednesday January 2, 2002) of the San Diego Union Tribune > there is an article in the science section (called "Quest") about CPs and > in particular hunting for a rare variety of Nepenthes in Borneo. You can > view the article on-line (there are some nice photos too) by > going to: www.uniontribune.com > Then from the left-hand column of choices click on "Quest". > > The title of the article is "Hunting the Hunters". It is definitely worth > reading. > Sanford That article seemed awful familiar to me. Then I recognized it as the one from Discover magazine a few months back. Nice to see it get a little wider circulation and give our little friends a little more PR. And anyone who hasn't voted for the CP stamps as your favorite and most important of the year, go and do so now! judging by the numbers for the current favorite, if everyone from this list went and voted, the CPs would win by a landslide! TTFN, Hamir the Hermit "Look over there, there's men dividing up the countryside. They've got authority, they've got a college degree. They've got machinery, they've got a pretty good job to do. They've got instructions and they don't want to bother about me." If you would like to help the victims of the September 11th terrorist attacks with their housing needs, go to http://relief.realtor.org/ [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 20:40:52 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:40:50 +0000 Subject: epiphytic utricularia germination (with my apologies) hello, i must apologize for revisiting a topic which was covered rather thoroughly in recent posts. i've gotten my hands on some seed of u.u. reniformis, alpina, and a sp. from costa rica. i remember that phil wilson and (i believe) a fellow from the australian orchid society had a lot to say about these plants. i just want to know the best compost and conditions for sowing the seeds. again, i apologize for not paying closer attention earlier, and would greatly appreciate any reply. thanks--mike Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 21:30:37 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:30:35 +1100 Subject: Re: D. indica Greetings, I understand that there are a few members of the D. indica complex which grow side by side but do not allow for hybridisation through several methods. One is by having different petal and/or style colour and therefore employing different pollinators. The other is having the flowers open at different times of the day (ie. the small red plants flower in the morning and the large green ones in the afternoon). This does not make them seperate species. If these different plants can not hybridise with human intervention this proves them to be seperate species but if they do hybridise this does not prove they are not seperate species. Is this correct? Regards Greg Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: sileshar@yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 23:02:45 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:02:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aluminum foil Dear list, I'm having trouble finding an 8" x 20" tray for my mini-terrarium (wood and glass), so I'm going to line the bottom so I can use every bit of space. I'm tempted to use aluminum foil, since the framing isn't all that strong. Anyone with experience using foil in terrariums - most likely as light reflectors? Will the condensate be a problem Thanks for any help. Grow well Hans Doylestown, PA Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 3 04:15:07 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 13:15:01 +0100 Subject: Re: New Drosera Species Dear Ivan & al., > No one can now argue against this split-up. Well, it depends. > Do you know why? It was Barry > Meyers-Rice that proved that these now separate species cannot be > hybridized. Since a species is a breeding pool and the different forms of > Byblis cannot interbreed, they must then be iron clad separate species. > This case of Byblis has more of a mathematical exactness of true science. Not really. Just take the example of _Drosera obovata_. This hybrid is almost always sterile, yet noone would seriously try to interpret it as more than a simple hybrid between _D. rotundifolia_ and _D. anglica_, just because it is so well delimited genetically against its congeners (including itself). The case of _D. tokaiensis_ is exactly as obvious and simple genetically and taxonomically, and still some people would rather treat it as an independent species just because it is *not* sterile. In South Africa, almost all members of sect. Drosera can be hybridized with each other, and the resulting hybrids are usually fertile. Still it appears reasonable to treat them as separate species. The important point (that has obviously still not penetrated public awareness sufficiently) is that sterility, fertility, and breeding behaviour *alone* are *not* sufficient (although these data are doubtlessly useful) for species delimitation in many cases, especially not in the genus _Drosera_ (or _Nepenthes_ or _Sarracenia_). > As I understand it, the forms Drosera indica in the beginning were > separate species, D. serpens, D. purpurascens, D. augustifolia, and D. > finlaysoniana. Then Diels came along and labeled them all D. indica. Not quite. In the beginning, there was no name (and no species, and no taxonomist) whatsoever. (...long version deleted here...) Much later (1753), there was just one name: _D. indica_ Then came silence for 74 (!) years. Then came _D. minor_ (1827), _D. finlaysoniana_ (1828), _D. hexaginia_ (1845), _D. serpens_ (1848), _D. angustifolia_ (1855), _D. adscendens_ (R.Br. in sched. before 1810, ex Diels 1906), _D. metziana_ (1913), and _D. makinoi_ (1932). Then came silence for 67 years. Then came _D. hartmeyerorum_ (2001). _D. purpurascens_ is a synonym of _D. stolonifera_, AFAIK (Index Kewensis). Has this been revised? _D. adscendens_ R.Br. (non Planch.) is a later homonym of a name of a taxon in another section, so it should not be used for any plant in Arachnopus. > I would like to see more work such as Barry did before specific > labeling takes place. This is impossible in most cases (new species are usually discovered in the field or in herbaria but not in cultivation), and it is not formally required (for good reasons). > Then Pandora's box might not be opened-up at all. Splitting and lumping will continue irrespective of the methods used. The only simple rule of taxonomy is there is no simple rule that always applies. Taxonomy is and will always remain the interpretation of situations found in nature. Exact methods can and should be used where possible, but the conclusions and decisions regarding taxonomy depend on the taxonomist, and there are probably no two taxonomists who agree in every respect. Only the inclusivity of taxonomic ranks is defined (a species cannot contain two different genera but a genus can contain two different species), delimitation and definition of taxa are matters of opinion. The reason for the seemingly non-scientific (or non-exact) nature of taxonomy is that there are no nearly as finite, constant, and well-defined items in vivo as in litteris. Taxa are theoretical concepts constructed by the human mind, not the things that really exist and happen in nature. You may regard this insufficient and error-prone (and you are right!), but I think (and I know many colleagues agree here) it is the only way to think and to communicate about these natural beings and processes among humans. Our mind is not prepared for more complex analysis and comprehension. This is why names and their proper use are so important for most of us (although not all of us are prepared to admit it). I do not know a single non-human being that uses names, and still I know lots of creatures that appear (no direct evidence available to me: they do not have a name for it!) to live happy lives without ever using names. "Species" are the simplest human interpretation of (apparently) distinguishable manifestations of life (just like evolution is the simplest interpretation of the processes involved in speciation, not more, and *not less*). Mankind has tried to find a precise, general, and reliable species definition for many generations without appreciable success. The crux is "species" do not really exist out there. Living beings are not constant (cf. the fossil record; those that were beginning to become too constant are fossils now), they do not necessarily observe breeding barriers (there are none in many plant genera), nor are the distinguishing features (as identified by humans) by any necessity relevant in nature (selective advantage is only observable a posteriori: you can identify the disadvantaged ones in the fossil record, those that are still with us are by definition all carriers of almost equally advantaged characteristics). The bad news (not really new) for most plant taxonomists is there is almost no well-preserved fossil record due to the ephemeral nature of most plant structures (no bones). In the few cases where there is an appreciable fossil record, fascinating insights are revealed (e.g. the only widespread "monotypic" cp genus, _Aldrovanda_, was by no means monotypic for most of the time of its existence; _Nepenthes_ probably was originally a more southerly genus, and once it perhaps extended even into Europe; some ancestors of _Dionaea_ did occur in Europe). The bottom line is there are probably a few people wo do not think _D. hartmeyerorum_ is a distinct species, and I can live with it (I do not buy some of their species, either), although I (and presumably a few others) prefer my own interpretation. And no doubt still others will describe or lump further species, and this is OK as well. The only thing that matters is that the reasons for our decisions and the conclusions (names) are published properly so others can make their own decisions based on defined pieces of evidence. As long as the reasons are comprehensible, personal opinions may very well be the basis of scientific hypotheses (because such hypotheses can e.g. be disproved in an exact way if the reasons can be shown to be wrong). Kind regards Jan ################### From: smak_420@hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 06:09:16 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:08:12 -0500 Subject: Heliampora woes well, i've all but lost hope for my poor heli.. since getting it months ago, it has slowly declined in condition to the point of almost being unrecoverable.. only a few spots of green are visable now near the base, as if the plant was in a dormancy.. i suspect the roots are still healthy though. at first i thought my terrerium was too hot for it, so i removed my hps bulb and relied on 3x4 foot 5000+K flourecents to light the terrerium, this effectivly lowered daytime temps from 92F to about 78F consistantly, and raised humidity from 71% to 83%.. nights are unheated (which i was doing in the past as my alata seemed to benefit from it) and stay around 68-70F with high 90's % humidity. it has been like this for over a month now and ive noticed no changes (good or bad.) i think its time i removed the heli from my large tank terrerium and give it a fighting chance by the windowsill in the basement.. this will benefit it in several ways as i see it.. 1) 100% humidity all the time since i'll be keeping it in a large jar which is sealed with wet sphagnum inside. 2) more suitable temps as it will probably see 70F days tops and nights in the low 60's easily if i crack a window. 3) improved light?, its a east facing sill.. not sure if this will provide more or less light than the artificial setup did. does anyone see the lack of air circulation a problem here though? will the shock alone be too much to be worth the chance on such a small (was an inch tall when healthy) plantlet? that do you all think? ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Thu Jan 3 06:57:11 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:50:57 -0500 Subject: RE: Heliampora woes Hey Paul, The few Helia's in our collection have always just kind of existed. When I wanted to put them on public display a few months ago, I decided to cover each of them with a glass bell jar. I removed the glass stopper from the top of the jars to allow a little air exchange. These plants have been on display now for about 7 weeks and they are doing great. they have several big new pitchers and they are sending up flowers. the jars maintain close to 100% humidity, and the temps drop to the low 60's at night and reach a high of about 80 F during the day. The few Helia's that I have in the back greenhouses are still looking the same way they did 3 months ago, very little new growth. I am convinced that they do best with night temps that are about 20 degrees F lower then the day temps, at least in the mid to low 60's, and very high humidity. This combo seems to be working for me. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Paul ' Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP well, i've all but lost hope for my poor heli.. since getting it months ago, it has slowly declined in condition to the point of almost being unrecoverable.. only a few spots of green are visable now near the base, as if the plant was in a dormancy.. i suspect the roots are still healthy though. at first i thought my terrerium was too hot for it, so i removed my hps bulb and relied on 3x4 foot 5000+K flourecents to light the terrerium, this effectivly lowered daytime temps from 92F to about 78F consistantly, and raised humidity from 71% to 83%.. nights are unheated (which i was doing in the past as my alata seemed to benefit from it) and stay around 68-70F with high 90's % humidity. it has been like this for over a month now and ive noticed no changes (good or bad.) i think its time i removed the heli from my large tank terrerium and give it a fighting chance by the windowsill in the basement.. this will benefit it in several ways as i see it.. 1) 100% humidity all the time since i'll be keeping it in a large jar which is sealed with wet sphagnum inside. 2) more suitable temps as it will probably see 70F days tops and nights in the low 60's easily if i crack a window. 3) improved light?, its a east facing sill.. not sure if this will provide more or less light than the artificial setup did. does anyone see the lack of air circulation a problem here though? will the shock alone be too much to be worth the chance on such a small (was an inch tall when healthy) plantlet? that do you all think? ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Thu Jan 3 08:15:31 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:15:49 -0500 Subject: N. albomarginata has a specialty diet Carnivorous plants: Mass march of termites into the deadly trap MARLIS A. MERBACH*, DENNIS J. MERBACH*, ULRICH MASCHWITZ*, WEBBER E. BOOTH?, BRIGITTE FIALA? & GEORG ZIZKA\247 * Fachbereich Biologie, Zoologisches Institut, Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universitat, Frankfurt am Main, Postfach 111932, 60054 Frankfurt, Germany ? Biology Department, Universiti Brunei Darussalam, Brunei Darussalam, Borneo ? Universitat Wurzburg, Zoologie III, Biozentrum, Am Hubland, 97074 Wurzburg, Germany \247 Botanik/Palaobotanik, Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universitat und Forschungsinstitut Senckenberg, 60325 Frankfurt am Main, Germany e-mail: merbach@zoology.uni-frankfurt.de Carnivorous pitcher plants of the genus Nepenthes are not usually very selective about their prey, catching anything that is careless enough to walk on their slippery peristome, but Nepenthes albomarginata is an exception. We show here that this plant uses a fringe of edible white hairs to lure and then trap its prey, which consists exclusively of termites in enormous numbers. This singular feature accounts for the specialization of N. albomarginata for one prey taxon, unique so far among carnivorous plants. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ################### From: Susan.Farrington@mobot.org Thu Jan 3 08:48:41 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 10:54:09 -0600 Subject: St. Louis Carnivorous Plant Society Meeting The St. Louis Carnivorous Plant Society will be holding its next meeting Thursday, January 10, at 6:30 p.m. at the Missouri Botanical Garden. I'll be showing slides of my trip to the Okefenokee Swamp. All are welcome, beginning growers as well as experienced. Let me know if you're interested in attending. Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden (314) 577-9402 [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 09:13:32 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 09:13:31 -0800 Subject: Nepenthes albomarginata has taste for termites Here's an article in Nature magazine about Nepenthes albomarginata having a preference to catching termites: http://www.nature.com/nsu/020101/020101-4.html Ron MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 10:16:41 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 10:16:39 -0800 Subject: New edition of Donald Schnell's book coming The second edition of Donald Schnell's book 'Carnivorous Plants of the United States and Canada' is coming out this year. Barnes & Noble has it listed with a release date of May 2002, and a suggested retail price of $39.95, which will be available at B&N for $31.96. The new version will be 348 pages and the ISBN number is 0881925403. Ron Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 3 10:40:57 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:49:08 -0500 Subject: "Pandora's box" in the genus Drosera Hello Ivan Greg & list, I am also curious about Drosera and other species being separated on the grounds that they can or cannot be cross pollinated. It would seem all Drosera binata clones I have grown that are "pure" are self incompatable, yet outcrossed "hybrids" between subspecies are fertile. I have also read about chromosomes being doubled by chemical treatment of seed of a species, making the resulting plants compatable for crossing with previously incompatable, separate species. Sarracenia are less complex yet I have rarely heard of anyone boasting of same species, separate population hybrids in this genus, though I know by experience, such crosses have hybrid vigor. I could site a couple of other cp genera, but I have read that orchid, lilies and grass species and genera are even more complicated, in their reproductive outcrossing potential. Is this simply because of errors in the history of Botanical nomenclature? Thank you to anyone with insight to my inquiry. Take care, Steven Stewart Florida USA ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Thu Jan 3 11:54:49 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:54:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Comments on the December CPN Hey Folks, I'm pleased to hear that the December CPN is being so well received. It really does have some interesting content in it. In some shameless back-patting, I'd like to thank Jan Schlauer for his work on the editorial board of CPN. Without his presence, CPN would not have the scientific strength to present new-species descriptions. Furthermore, with his work on cultivar registration, we are finally seeing the increased interest in registering cultivar names so we can finally figure out what we are trading amongst ourselves! I'm looking forward to plants like Sarracenia 'Hummer's Hammerhead' getting into wider circulation, because some of these cultivars are really cool! Unfortunately, while I was on vacation in the chilly lands of Chicago (temperatures of -14C, i.e. 7F!) I noticed a typographical error that had crept into the December CPN. If you all open your CPN issue to page 115, you'll notice that the cultivar description at the top of this page does not have a cultivar name clearly associated with it. This description refers to Sarracenia 'Golden-Red Jubilee'. You could easily figure this out by looking at the list of cultivars at the beginning of the article, or by looking at the photographs in the article. However, I just wanted to add this clarification. OK, back to work! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: flytrap@charter.net Thu Jan 3 13:51:05 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:51:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Comments on the December CPN Barry, Glad you are back. I have sent the 1st draft your way today, Thursday. I hope We have had about 6-8 inches of snow. I dropped it off at a box that stated a 5:30 Pickup. So you should have it in the morning. I saw your message about the December issue. I checked my file and it was at the top of my page 115. I am not sure what happen. Thanks Steve on 1/3/02 2:58 PM, Barry Meyers-Rice at bamrice@ucdavis.edu wrote: > > > Hey Folks, > > I'm pleased to hear that the December CPN is being so well received. It > really does have some interesting content in it. > > In some shameless back-patting, I'd like to thank Jan Schlauer for his > work on the editorial board of CPN. Without his presence, CPN would not > have the scientific strength to present new-species descriptions. > Furthermore, with his work on cultivar registration, we are finally seeing > the increased interest in registering cultivar names so we can finally > figure out what we are trading amongst ourselves! I'm looking forward to > plants like Sarracenia 'Hummer's Hammerhead' getting into wider > circulation, because some of these cultivars are really cool! > > Unfortunately, while I was on vacation in the chilly lands of Chicago > (temperatures of -14C, i.e. 7F!) I noticed a typographical error that had > crept into the December CPN. If you all open your CPN issue to page 115, > you'll notice that the cultivar description at the top of this page does > not have a cultivar name clearly associated with it. This description > refers to Sarracenia 'Golden-Red Jubilee'. You could easily figure this > out by looking at the list of cultivars at the beginning of the article, > or by looking at the photographs in the article. However, I just wanted to > add this clarification. > > OK, back to work! > > Barry > > ------------------------ > Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. > Carnivorous Plant Newsletter > Conservation Coeditor > barry@carnivorousplants.org > http://www.carnivorousplants.org > ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 3 14:27:53 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:26:05 +0000 Subject: Re: epiphytic utricularia germination (with my apologies) Mike, >i must apologize for revisiting a topic which was covered rather thoroughly >in recent posts. i've gotten my hands on some seed of u.u. reniformis, >alpina, and a sp. from costa rica. i remember that phil wilson and (i >believe) a fellow from the australian orchid society had a lot to say about >these plants. i just want to know the best compost and conditions for sowing >the seeds. again, i apologize for not paying closer attention earlier, and >would greatly appreciate any reply. thanks--mike > U. reniformis and U. alpina should be sown on a regular 60/40 peat and sand. I can't comment obviously on the unknown species from Costa Rica but the same mix is probably a good start. Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Thu Jan 3 14:38:57 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:38:49 EST Subject: Re: Comments on the December CPN Barry, The little mistakes like that we can live with. Jan and you have been doing such a fantastic job introducing us to all these fantastic new cultivars. The only error you can make is having us "Ooh" and "Ahh" and desire these wonderful plants that were mostly unknown to the bulk of us, and then we can't obtain them because there are very few propagated plants or they are not available to the public. But that won't happen, will it!!??? Even though my Psychiatric evualtions are much better and I have stopped spontaneously screaming "Piroutte!!" in panic situations, I won't been looking at another case of Cultivaranemia, will I? Heeeheee, gibber, rub hands together maniacally..... Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 3 14:55:05 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:54:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Aluminum foil In message <20020103070231.82862.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>, Hans Johnson writes > > Dear list, > > I'm having trouble finding an 8" x 20" tray for my mini-terrarium >(wood and glass), so I'm going to line the bottom so I can use every bit >of space. > I'm tempted to use aluminum foil, since the framing isn't all that >strong. Anyone with experience using foil in terrariums - most likely as >light reflectors? Will the condensate be a problem > Thanks for any help. If you have any electrics in the terrarium I would not advise the use of foil since the foil could become live if you have any sort of electrical fault. If you have to use foil you should ensure it is properly grounded. An alternative might be reflective mylar material - the stuff space blankets are made from. It is almost as reflective and is apparently electrically non-conductive. The main weakness is the reflective material will scratch off after a while if it comes into contact with sands and grits too often. Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Thu Jan 3 15:18:27 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 18:18:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Comments on the December CPN I really am enjoying the Dec. CPN, lots of nice pictures and interesting scineticific & some habitat info. CPN is really nicely done. I enjoyed the Darlingtonia article and the pictures were great. We are really lacking cultural information with CPN, very little the whole year on how to grow the darn things. This change away from cultural information has been going on for sometime, and though scientific & habitat info is useful on getting ideas on possible ways to grow the plants it isn't enough. In fact there is no cultural information at all in the Dec issue, unless you count the seed bank. There is nothing for the horticultural interest in growing carnivorous plants. How can this be? There doesn't seem to be enough membership or worldwide interest in carnivorous plants to warrant a separate quarterly that centers on plant cultivation so what ideas are there to include useful current horticultural information on growing these plants? I would also like someone with some knowledge on the subject to clarify the naming of cultivars. While I certainly enjoy viewing all Hummers Sarracenia cultivars, does every Sarracenia variant/hybrid deserve cultivar status? I am a avid Sarracenia grower, and just love the plants, but if all one has to do is pick every different hybrid and put it in cultivar status then I will fill a 100 page periodical with new cultivars! After all there are thousands of different types of outcome you can get with just a few crosses from seed, all look different. I must have 5 different forms of S. x formosa, but are they all of cultivar status? I doubt it, I am a legend only in my own mind. Then someone else can name there cultivar of S. x formosa after themselves and the whole thing becomes a diluted mess of nothing. I am not picking on Mr. Hummer, there have been far worse mutts named cultivars and published in CPN's in recent past. Many it looks like are coming right out of the wild, someone sees it and "A-ha- I will name this Sarracenia a cultivar"! Lets get a handle on this before it becomes a worse mess than the naming of Nepenthes hybrids has. By the way Hummers Hammerhead is a dynamite cultivar! Regards, Mike St. Petersburg Florida We are still lacking almost any kind of decent ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 4:53 PM > > Barry, > > Glad you are back. I have sent the 1st draft your way today, Thursday. I > hope We have had about 6-8 inches of snow. I dropped it off at a box that > stated a 5:30 Pickup. So you should have it in the morning. I saw your > message about the December issue. I checked my file and it was at the top of > my page 115. I am not sure what happen. > > Thanks > > Steve > > on 1/3/02 2:58 PM, Barry Meyers-Rice at bamrice@ucdavis.edu wrote: > > > > > > > Hey Folks, > > > > I'm pleased to hear that the December CPN is being so well received. It > > really does have some interesting content in it. > > > > In some shameless back-patting, I'd like to thank Jan Schlauer for his > > work on the editorial board of CPN. Without his presence, CPN would not > > have the scientific strength to present new-species descriptions. > > Furthermore, with his work on cultivar registration, we are finally seeing > > the increased interest in registering cultivar names so we can finally > > figure out what we are trading amongst ourselves! I'm looking forward to > > plants like Sarracenia 'Hummer's Hammerhead' getting into wider > > circulation, because some of these cultivars are really cool! > > > > Unfortunately, while I was on vacation in the chilly lands of Chicago > > (temperatures of -14C, i.e. 7F!) I noticed a typographical error that had > > crept into the December CPN. If you all open your CPN issue to page 115, > > you'll notice that the cultivar description at the top of this page does > > not have a cultivar name clearly associated with it. This description > > refers to Sarracenia 'Golden-Red Jubilee'. You could easily figure this > > out by looking at the list of cultivars at the beginning of the article, > > or by looking at the photographs in the article. However, I just wanted to > > add this clarification. > > > > OK, back to work! > > > > Barry > > > > ------------------------ > > Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. > > Carnivorous Plant Newsletter > > Conservation Coeditor > > barry@carnivorousplants.org > > http://www.carnivorousplants.org > > > ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Thu Jan 3 19:49:46 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 21:47:06 -0600 Subject: Humidifier Water pH Hello all, Has anyone using an ultrasonic humidifier to fog a terrarium ever tried adjusting the pH of the water down to keep the pH of the medium from creeping upwards? If I do decide to try this, what would be a safe starting pH? Thanks for any input. Tom ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 23:26:49 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 01:26:47 -0600 Subject: Hybrids and species

Jan superbly covered this topic, and thanks for clarifying the history of D. indica.

<<Do you know why? It was Barry Meyers-Rice that proved that these now separate species cannot be hybridized. Since a species is a breeding pool and the different forms of Byblis cannot interbreed, they must then be iron clad separate species. This case of Byblis has more of a mathematical exactness of true science. >>

<Not really..........The case of _D. tokaiensis_ is exactly as obvious and simple genetically and taxonomically, and still some people would rather treat it as an independent species just because it is *not* sterile.>

How about the offsprings? To be recognized as its own species, I thought offsprings should not segregate as you often see those of  primary hybrids. I was thinking the case of D. anglica, and that may be relevant as well, right?

<The important point (that has obviously still not penetrated public
awareness sufficiently) is that sterility, fertility, and breeding

behaviour *alone* are *not* sufficient (although these data are doubtlessly useful) for species delimitation in many cases, especially not in the genus _Drosera_ (or _Nepenthes_ or _Sarracenia_).>

I agree. I think sterility among hybrids simply shows genetic dustance(s) between two parental species.

<Splitting and lumping will continue irrespective of the methods used.>

Speaking of sterility (or fertility) among primary hybrids, many of (not all, though) orchid primary hybrids are perfectly fertile. Intergenerics (hybrids between different genera) are hardly new. You can buy hybrids of Brassolaeliocattleya (Brassavola x Laelia x Cattleya), Ascocenda (Ascocentrum x Vanda) and Vulystekeara (Miltonia x Cochlioda x Odontoglossum) even at local Lowes (or Home Depot). If I remember correctly, there is a man-made genus that consists of species from nine genera. Of course, this depends on species, genera, subtribes, and tribes that orchids belong to. The concept of species that is readily applied to a group of family/genus, etc may not be applicable to another.

<Only the inclusivity of taxonomic ranks is defined (a species cannot contain two different genera but a genus can contain two different species),>

Does this apply to fungal species as well? For example, Giberella fujikuroi is a teleomorph of Fusarium moniliforme (anamorph). I remember some macrocyclic rust fugi belonging to three genus depending on the number of life cycles. Since this is fungal taxonomy, the situation may be different.

There were many other good points, but I should keep my message short.


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################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jan 4 02:35:34 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 11:35:28 +0100 Subject: Re: Hybrids and species Dear Hideka, > Jan superbly (...) Thanks for your appreciation! ;-) > The case of _D. tokaiensis_ is exactly as obvious and simple > genetically and taxonomically, and still some people would rather > treat it as an independent species just because it is *not* sterile. > How about the offsprings? To be recognized as its own species, > I thought offsprings should not segregate as you often see those of > primary hybrids. I was thinking the case of _D. anglica_, > and that may be relevant as well, right? _D. tokaiensis_ is so similar to one parent species (_D. spatulata_) that it has been treated as a subsp. of it before it was discovered that part of its chromosomes are exact copies of those of _D. rotundifolia_ (which is morphologically not too far away, either). The offspring of _D. tokaiensis_ is, therefore, not very surprising (again very similar to _D. spatulata_, or _D. tokaiensis_ for that matter). The decisive point for my interpretation here (I regard _D. tokaiensis_ as a hybrid like _D. obovata_) is neither morphological (which would favour inclusion in _D. spatulata_) nor genetical (which would favour segregation as a separate species like _D. anglica_) but chorological: Like _D. obovata_, _D. tokaiensis_ is not chorologically independent from its parent species, i.e. it does not occur in a phytogeographic unit (province) outside the overlap of the ranges of the parent species, both of which extend considerably beyond that area. In contrast to _D. tokaiensis_, _D. anglica_ extends beyond the range of _D. rotundifolia_ in a number of places (Hawaii - probably introduced recently, S USA, S Europe), and beyond the range of the other putative parent (a possibly now extinct relative of _D. linearis_) by most of its range (outside N America). > Only the inclusivity of taxonomic ranks is defined (a species cannot contain two different genera but a genus can contain two different species), > Does this apply to fungal species as well? Yes (mutatis mutandis). > For example, Giberella fujikuroi is a teleomorph of > Fusarium moniliforme (anamorph). I remember some macrocyclic > rust fugi belonging to three genus depending on the number of life > cycles. Since this is fungal taxonomy, the situation may be > different. Not really. But the inclusivity is of course restricted to the stage if the stages may receive different names. _Gibberella fujikuroi_ does not *include* two or more different genera of teleomorphs, anamorphs or *whatsoever. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jan 4 03:06:29 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:06:24 +0100 Subject: cp cultivation articles Dear Mike, > There doesn't seem to be enough membership or worldwide interest in > carnivorous plants to warrant a separate quarterly that centers on plant > cultivation so what ideas are there to include useful current horticultural > information on growing these plants? One of the problems might be that cps occur in 118 (of 152) floristic provinces, all of which have a particular climate/vegetation. Cp growers occur in all 152 provinces (although they concentrate disproportionally in perhaps 20 provinces; these are usually not those with the highest indigenous cp diversity). Result: Cps are usually cultivated ex situ, and it is almost impossible to make general statements on the cultivation of any cp that will lead to success in all possible situations; "current horticultural information" can only consist of reports on what has worked in a particular situation. This will certainly not lead to 100% success everywhere. You can find plenty of such information in books like "Savage Garden" by Peter D'Amato (no endorsement, just a quotation). But we cannot satisfy the demands of our international readership by just printing the same in CPN. The other, possibly larger, problem is lack of manuscripts. It has been stated many times before, but it obviously requires repetition: ** We cannot print in CPN what is not submitted as a manuscript. ** A lack of articles (suspected or real) on a particular topic is not due to censorship by the editors who do not like them but due to missing authors who would write them. > (...)does every Sarracenia variant/hybrid deserve cultivar status? No. > I am a avid Sarracenia grower, and just love the plants, but if all one > has to do is pick every different hybrid and put it in cultivar status > then I will fill a 100 page periodical with new cultivars! Yes (the page number is of course variable according to situation). The periodical is called the International Register (IR). At the moment the cp IR fills 5162 lines, corresponding roughly to 100 pages. You can retrieve the information from the cp database: http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home > I must have 5 different forms of S. x formosa, but are they all of > cultivar status? No registered cultivar belongs to this taxon but the name has two later nomenclatural synonyms (same parent species): _S. decora_ and _S. maddisoniana_. > I doubt it, I am a legend > only in my own mind. Then someone else can name there cultivar of S. x > formosa after themselves and the whole thing becomes a diluted mess of > nothing. It is not the competence or duty of a registration authority to judge the quality or distinctness of cultivars. We just have to ensure the quality and distinctness of cultivar names. If the registrant *thinks* his/her cultivar is distinct and superior, and if he/she submits a description (published somewhere else or to be published in CPN) mentioning the features that in his/her opinion are distinguishing, and if he/she adds a high quality photograph (together with a permit to reproduce it) showing these features, the name of this cultivar will in any event be considered for registration. If the name is formally acceptable (cf. ICNCP), it will in any event be registered by the ICPS. > Many it looks like are coming right out of the wild, someone sees it > and "A-ha- I will name this Sarracenia a cultivar"! This is perfectly OK with the rules (ICNCP). > Lets get a handle on this The first handle is a way to fix the meaning of names: registration. The International Cultivar Registration Authority (ICRA) provides exactly this, information on cultivar names (not more and not less). Another handle (but not an ICRA's job!) is awarding particular cultivars in plant shows or displays. This has been done in a few cases with cp cultivars. It can, however, sometimes degenerate into a political issue, and although we record notes on awards (to the best of our knowledge) in the cp IR, registration is entirely independent from awards. > before it becomes a worse mess than the naming of Nepenthes hybrids > has. A very generalized statement on a widely diverse topic. Most names are not too bad (if applied correctly), but some are really a pain. Kind regards Jan (ICPS Registrar) ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Fri Jan 4 06:12:00 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:05:28 -0500 Subject: RE: Humidifier Water pH In my humble opinion as a Professional grower (non CP, that is) pH of water is highly misunderstood. It is far more important to have water with a low ALKALINITY. Water alkalinity is often confused with water basicity. The alkalinity of water refers to its parts per million dissolved CaCO3. Basicity refers to pH. This is the main contributor to waters ability to buffer, or change media pH. It is far more important to have water with low ALKALINITY then it is to have water with low pH. If you are having trouble with your media pH rising, then your culprit is probably a water source with high alkalinity. I use well water in all our greenhouses. CP's get RO water. When I started here 4 years ago, the well water had an alkalinity of 340. Ideally, water used for plants should have an alkalinity of <100. We have to inject sulfuric acid into our well water to bring the Alkalinity down. Our water had such a high buffering capacity, that the sulfuric acid injector didn't lower the pH until our alkalinity got down to under 250. If you have ever done a simple titration experiment, you know what I mean. To put this in perspective, I can add one drop of sulfuric acid to a gallon of our RO water(alkalinity ~20)and the pH will drop. If I do this same thing to a gallon of our well water, the pH will stay the same, and the Alkalinity will drop slightly. The high alkalinity of the well water acts as a buffer. Anyway, I don't know why I started this, its about as clear as mud. I would check your water alkalinity before I would worry about trying to lower the pH. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Tom Stubblefield Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:57 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hello all, Has anyone using an ultrasonic humidifier to fog a terrarium ever tried adjusting the pH of the water down to keep the pH of the medium from creeping upwards? If I do decide to try this, what would be a safe starting pH? Thanks for any input. Tom ################### From: Darren_bedwel@iquest.net Fri Jan 4 06:53:36 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:54:28 -0500 Subject: Terrarium cooling with peltiers There are so many plants that can be killed by the heat, or that are healthier with cool temperatures - darlingtonia, highland neps, heliamphora, etc. Has anyone tried using a peltier device to cool a terrarium? If you don't know what a peltier device is, it is a solid state unit that gets cold on one side and hot on the other when you run an electrical current through it. Some fast computers nowadays use peltier units to cool their CPU's. The cold side of the peltier goes against the CPU, and the hot side has a heat sink and fan attached to it. The whole thing runs off of 12 volts DC and can be powered by a spare computer power supply. They draw a lot of current. I am buying one off of ebay to try it out, and will report back on the results. ################### From: ksanders@clas.ufl.edu Fri Jan 4 07:10:53 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:10:47 -0500 Subject: CNN article CNN has a small story (no pics) about the Nep that attracts termites: http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/01/03/killer/reut/index .html -Keith Keith Sanders Systems Programmer CLASnet 100 Rolfs Hall 352-846-1990 ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Fri Jan 4 07:27:28 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:27:06 EST Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers Yes, I do know of a person who is successfully using peltier devices for growing highland neps. I am looking at using them in my orchidarium to grow the really ultra highland neps and heliamphora which require cool temps with really bright light. He seems to be having good luck with it. Email me privately, and I will direct you to him if you like. I am not sure if he is on the listserve. Michael Catalani In a message dated 1/4/2002 8:55:47 AM Central Standard Time, Darren_bedwel@iquest.net writes: > There are so many plants that can be killed by the heat, or that are > healthier with cool temperatures - darlingtonia, highland neps, > heliamphora, etc. Has anyone tried using a peltier device to cool a > terrarium? > > If you don't know what a peltier device is, it is a solid state unit that > gets cold on one side and hot on the other when you run an electrical > current through it. Some fast computers nowadays use peltier units to cool > their CPU's. The cold side of the peltier goes against the CPU, and the > hot side has a heat sink and fan attached to it. The whole thing runs off > of 12 volts DC and can be powered by a spare computer power supply. They > draw a lot of current. I am buying one off of ebay to try it out, and will > report back on the results. > [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Fri Jan 4 07:44:23 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:41:43 -0700 Subject: RE: New edition of Donald Schnell's book coming > From: "Ron ." > > The second edition of Donald Schnell's book > 'Carnivorous Plants of the United States and Canada' > is coming out this year. Barnes & Noble has it listed > with a release date of May 2002, and a suggested > retail price of $39.95, which will be available > at B&N for $31.96. The new version will be 348 pages and > the ISBN number is 0881925403. Does anyone have any more info about this? I have the original, which I consider one of the best CP books around, but I think it's only about 120 pages or so. That sounds like a major upgrade if it's nearly triple the original length! BTW, Amazon.com has it for $27.96. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: JDPDX@aol.com Fri Jan 4 09:14:52 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:14:39 EST Subject: Re: New Donald Schnell Book >The second edition of Donald Schnell's book >'Carnivorous Plants of the United States and Canada' >is coming out this year. Here's a sneak preview from the publisher, Timber Press. Timber Press: Books on Gardening and Horticultu'\246 Jeff Portland, OR ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 09:15:43 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:15:40 -0800 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers >Has anyone tried using a peltier device to cool a terrarium? I have. I have a small setup where I'm growing some rare highland Nepenthes and sundews which like cool temperature drops at night. Its been running very well for 6 months now, though I should point out there are some limitations involved. The peltier device isn't as effective at cooling as a refrigerator or air conditioner. In regards to cooling a terrarium, the main issue is insulation. A glass terrarium has very little insulation, so any cooling inside the terrarium is quickly lost through the glass walls, so this need to be addressed. To make a long story short, my 'terrarium' consists of a thermoelectric cooler, called the Coleman PowerChill. It is 40 quarts, or about the size of a 10-gallon tank. I originally was going to cannibilize this cooler to take out the peltier device and somehow attach it to a terrarium. The size of the cooling unit is a bit bulky. It consists of the peltier unit (which in itself it quite small), but combined with the two heat sinks and fans, it takes up more room than you would think. In fact, it would be a bit unwieldy to use on a 10-gallon aquarium, and you still have to work out how to handle the warm air exhaust. In the cooler, the peltier device is embedded in the wall, with a small portion of it (the fan) protuding just a little inside the interior. If it was somehow retrofitted to a terrarium, I think it would fit better on a larger tank, but since the size of the cooler is about the size of a 10-gallon tank, I don't think this particular peltier device would perform very well in a larger volume, like say a 60-gallon tank. The cooler is well-insulated, with the container being made up of thick plastic about 2 inches thick and the door is sealed with an O-ring. In comparison, a typical terrarium has glass walls on five sides plus the top. Glass is a poor insulator, so there will be cooling loss through the glass walls of the tank. Because of the insulation issues with glass tanks which I couldn't easily resolve, I just decided to grow the plants inside the cooler instead. The Coleman cooler has a detachable door, intended to be easily placed on the right or left side. I just removed the door, and placed a piece of glass cut to size on top. The purpose of the glass top is so that I can place it under lights. Otherwise, the cooler functions as it normally would. True, I can only view the plants from above, but that is fine as I placed the cooler on the bottom part of my shelving units, and have two four-foot shoplights suspended above it. Since the cooler is the size of a 10-gallon tank, it is on the small size. Fortunately, my Nepenthes are small, and I can fit eight 4-inch pots inside. I originally controlled the temperature insidethe cooler using a timer. I have it turned on and off during various parts of the day, with the idea to keep it around 80 degrees F during the day, and to about 55 degress F at night, which I achieved. There is some guesswork involved in setting up the timer, and of course, the ambient temperature in the garage where I grow the plants is a factor. I have since switched to a cooling thermostat. When the cooler turns on, the built-in fan helps circulate the air inside. This setup has worked very well during the summer heat, where the outside temperature peaked at 110 degrees F, while my plants were cool and happy inside the cooler. The plants I'm growing in setup are mostly highland Nepenthes: N. lowii (Mulu), N. lowii (Trusmadi), N. rajah, N. ephippiata ,N. aristolochioides, N. inermis and I also have H. minor and a Drosera sp. emas (from Brazil) in there. None of the plants have died, and all of the Nepenthes are pitchering. I've found that water condenses on the bottom of the cooler, but this keeps the humidity high, between 70% to 95%. I have the Nepenthes in individual water trays, so the extra water in the cooler does not flood the plants. I also siphon out any excess water using a turkey baster and water my other plants with it. The growth rate of the highland Nepenthes is noticeably slower than with lowland Nepenthes. I had placed live spaghnum moss in each of the pots. The moss is growing faster than the plants, and I have to periodically trim back the moss. This particular setup is excellent for fast growing of live spaghnum moss. One other extra bonus, is this Coleman unit is also a heater. I can reconfigure it in the winter to warm the plants, which I will be doing shortly. Ron MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Fri Jan 4 10:05:01 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:04:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: CPN content: cultivars and cultivation Hey Joe, Mike, Joe wrote: > new cultivars. The only error you can make is having us "Ooh" and > "Ahh" and desire these wonderful plants that were mostly unknown to > the bulk of us, and then we can't obtain them because there are very > few propagated plants or they are not available to the public. I know what you mean. I always try to encourage people who are registering cultivars to try to have lots of plants ready by publication time for distribution. For example, I've been sitting on a cultivar Ping for about a year now, waiting to get at least 30 plants before I publish the cultivar description. I've got about 20, so by about September I'll have 40 or so and will be happy. Some cultivars (e.g. Sarracenia 'Don Schnell') have gone extinct because of inadequate propagation. Mike wrote: > We are really lacking cultural information with CPN, very little the whole > year on how to grow the darn things. > This change away from cultural information has been going on for sometime, > and though scientific & habitat info is useful on getting ideas on > possible ways to grow the plants it isn't enough. In fact there is no > cultural information at all in the Dec issue, unless you count the seed > bank. There is nothing for the horticultural interest in growing > carnivorous plants. How can this be? This frustrates me, too. The problem is, as always, getting the readership to write articles! I go to CP meetings, and people are doing really neat, innovative stuff. They promise me they'll write articles for CPN, but such promises turn into reality so very, very rarely. I try to fill the gap by writing cultivation articles from time to time, but I much prefer to hear from other voices. > I would also like someone with some knowledge on the subject to clarify the > naming of cultivars. While I certainly enjoy viewing all Hummers Sarracenia > cultivars, does every Sarracenia variant/hybrid deserve cultivar status? I Absolutely not! I think that we'll have to watch the future, and see which cultivars are successful. Now, in Hummer's defense, I'll point out that he's been growing Sarracenia for decades and he's got a lot of experience on what makes a good plant. What really gets me nervous is when a person who has grown plants for three years, and has a total of 4 or 5 Sarracenia in their collection, wants to establish a cultivar name for their plant. Cultivar publication costs the ICPS a lot (because of publication costs for color images) and I'm hoping only the best plants are selected for cultivar status. I could talk at length about the whole dynamic of cultivar registration, and grower's pride for their plants, and grower's egos, etc etc, but not today! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Fri Jan 4 10:07:36 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:07:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Utricularia calycifida cultivar Hey Folks, Now that we're talking about cultivars... Is anyone on this line growing the cultivar Utricularia calycifida 'Asenath Waite'? This is a plant that I developed a short time ago, and the more it is growing, the more it amazes me. One of my plants is producing leaves that are about three times as large as I've ever seen on a U. calycifida plant, and this plant just never seems to stop flowering. It's probably the best horticultural innovation I've ever developed, if I don't say so myself! Later! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Fri Jan 4 10:50:27 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:50:00 EST Subject: The CP Bog has moved... Hi everyone! I have moved my website to a much better server than the previous one. Now, there are none of those annoying advertisement banners or pop-ups. Please stop by and take a look and update your bookmarks/favorites! New address: www.spacetowns.com/cpbog The old address will only contain the photo gallery from now on. It will be linked to the new address shortly. This should be the last move of the website, unless something happens to the server! Owen S. The CP Bog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Fri Jan 4 11:04:53 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:04:37 -0600 Subject: Re: Humidifier Water pH Hello Steve, On the contrary, your explanation was quite clear and very readable. I failed to mention 0 tds in my RO/DI output water, as it should be. Therefore, no hardness and no pH buffering. My problem is with all the RO water being pumped in as humidifying fog, it raises the water table of the terrarium over time, effectively lessening acidity. My terrarium is vented and the dry winter air is not helping. One possible solution is adding a small amount of pH Down to my humidifier reservoir to increase acidity in the medium. When you speak of alkalinity, I take it to mean KH, or carbonate hardness. If I misunderstood, please correct me. The only other alternative would be to cool off the terrarium and vent less. I'll work on this. Thanks for the input! Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 8:17 AM > > In my humble opinion as a Professional grower (non CP, that is) pH of water > is highly misunderstood. It is far more important to have water with a low > ALKALINITY. Water alkalinity is often confused with water basicity. The > alkalinity of water refers to its parts per million dissolved CaCO3. > Basicity refers to pH. This is the main contributor to waters ability to > buffer, or change media pH. It is far more important to have water with low > ALKALINITY then it is to have water with low pH. > > If you are having trouble with your media pH rising, then your culprit is > probably a water source with high alkalinity. I use well water in all our > greenhouses. CP's get RO water. When I started here 4 years ago, the well > water had an alkalinity of 340. Ideally, water used for plants should have > an alkalinity of <100. We have to inject sulfuric acid into our well water > to bring the Alkalinity down. Our water had such a high buffering capacity, > that the sulfuric acid injector didn't lower the pH until our alkalinity got > down to under 250. If you have ever done a simple titration experiment, you > know what I mean. To put this in perspective, I can add one drop of sulfuric > acid to a gallon of our RO water(alkalinity ~20)and the pH will drop. If I > do this same thing to a gallon of our well water, the pH will stay the same, > and the Alkalinity will drop slightly. The high alkalinity of the well > water acts as a buffer. > > Anyway, I don't know why I started this, its about as clear as mud. I would > check your water alkalinity before I would worry about trying to lower the > pH. > > > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com]On > Behalf Of Tom Stubblefield > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:57 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list CP > Subject: Humidifier Water pH > > > > Hello all, > Has anyone using an ultrasonic humidifier to fog a terrarium ever tried > adjusting the pH of the water down to keep the pH of the medium from > creeping upwards? If I do decide to try this, what would be a safe starting > pH? > Thanks for any input. > Tom > > > ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Fri Jan 4 11:19:03 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:18:55 EST Subject: Re: CNN article In a message dated 1/4/02 7:14:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, ksanders@clas.ufl.edu writes: > http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/01/03/killer/reut/index > .html > I only get an error message. Was it significantly different from the other articles? TTFN, Hamir the Hermit "Look over there, there's men dividing up the countryside. They've got authority, they've got a college degree. They've got machinery, they've got a pretty good job to do. They've got instructions and they don't want to bother about me." If you would like to help the victims of the September 11th terrorist attacks with their housing needs, go to http://relief.realtor.org/ [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Fri Jan 4 11:23:59 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:12:19 -0600 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers Darren, I've thought about incorporating peltier units into my terrarium but the cost of purchasing enough of them is prohibitive on a 55 gallon terrarium. I've even thought about the CoolWorks IceProbe sold by Pet Warehouse and others. It is supposed to be good for containers 50 gallons or less. I think it might be usable in a terrarium situation but you might have to have a pool of water at one end for it to work in. Please let me know what you come up with. It might be worth doing. Regards, Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 8:55 AM > > There are so many plants that can be killed by the heat, or that are > healthier with cool temperatures - darlingtonia, highland neps, > heliamphora, etc. Has anyone tried using a peltier device to cool a > terrarium? > > If you don't know what a peltier device is, it is a solid state unit that > gets cold on one side and hot on the other when you run an electrical > current through it. Some fast computers nowadays use peltier units to cool > their CPU's. The cold side of the peltier goes against the CPU, and the > hot side has a heat sink and fan attached to it. The whole thing runs off > of 12 volts DC and can be powered by a spare computer power supply. They > draw a lot of current. I am buying one off of ebay to try it out, and will > report back on the results. > > ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Fri Jan 4 11:30:57 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:30:44 -0600 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers Ron, I have contemplated doing this for some time now. I may have a partial solution to the insulation. My thought is to get a sheet of 1/2" styrofoam insulation, cut it to size, and cover the sides and back of the terrarium, effectively reflecting lost light as well. The front and top are the only concerns left. As for the top, thin plastic is better than glass, which cuts out too much of the UV the plants need. Perhaps a thin sheet of polycarbonate or plexiglass would suffice here. It is also more insulating than glass as it doesn't have the heat migration glass is infamous for. I love electronics and cp! The peltier junction units would probably work well in a highland tissue culture cabinet of about 20 gallon size. I'll be delving into that shortly. Just a thought. Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 11:18 AM > > > > >Has anyone tried using a peltier device to cool a terrarium? > > I have. I have a small setup where I'm growing some rare highland Nepenthes > and sundews which like cool temperature drops at night. Its been running > very well for 6 months now, though I should point out there are some > limitations involved. > > The peltier device isn't as effective at cooling as a refrigerator or air > conditioner. In regards to cooling a terrarium, the main issue is > insulation. A glass terrarium has very little insulation, so any cooling > inside the terrarium is quickly lost through the glass walls, so this need > to be addressed. > > To make a long story short, my 'terrarium' consists of a thermoelectric > cooler, called the Coleman PowerChill. > It is 40 quarts, or about the size of a 10-gallon tank. > I originally was going to cannibilize this cooler to take out the peltier > device and somehow attach it to a terrarium. The size of the cooling unit > is a bit bulky. It consists of the peltier unit (which in itself it quite > small), but combined with the two heat sinks and fans, it takes up more room > than you would think. In fact, it would be a bit unwieldy to use on a > 10-gallon aquarium, and you still have to work out how to handle the warm > air exhaust. In the cooler, the peltier device is embedded in the wall, with > a small portion of it (the fan) protuding just a little inside the interior. > If it was somehow retrofitted to a terrarium, I think it would fit better on > a larger tank, but since the size of the cooler is about the size of a > 10-gallon tank, I don't think this particular peltier device would perform > very well in a larger volume, like say a 60-gallon tank. > > The cooler is well-insulated, with the container being made up of thick > plastic about 2 inches thick and the door is sealed with an O-ring. In > comparison, a typical terrarium has glass walls on five sides plus the top. > Glass is a poor insulator, so there will be cooling loss through the glass > walls of the tank. Because of the insulation issues with glass tanks which I > couldn't easily resolve, I just decided to grow the plants inside the cooler > instead. > > The Coleman cooler has a detachable door, intended to be easily placed on > the right or left side. I just removed the door, and placed a piece of > glass cut to size on top. The purpose of the glass top is so that I can > place it under lights. Otherwise, the cooler functions as it normally > would. True, I can only view the plants from above, but that is fine as I > placed the cooler on the bottom part of my shelving units, and have two > four-foot shoplights suspended above it. Since the cooler is the size of a > 10-gallon tank, it is on the small size. Fortunately, my Nepenthes are > small, and I can fit eight 4-inch pots > inside. > > I originally controlled the temperature insidethe cooler using a timer. I > have it turned on and off during various parts of the day, with the idea to > keep it around 80 degrees F during the day, and to about 55 degress F at > night, which I achieved. There is some guesswork involved in setting up the > timer, and of course, the ambient temperature in the garage where I grow the > plants is a factor. I have since switched to a cooling thermostat. When the > cooler turns on, the built-in fan helps circulate the air inside. > > This setup has worked very well during the summer heat, where the outside > temperature peaked at 110 degrees F, while my plants were cool and happy > inside the cooler. The plants I'm growing in setup are mostly highland > Nepenthes: N. lowii (Mulu), N. lowii (Trusmadi), N. rajah, N. ephippiata ,N. > aristolochioides, N. inermis and I also have H. minor and a Drosera sp. emas > (from Brazil) in there. None of the plants have died, and all of the > Nepenthes are pitchering. > > I've found that water condenses on the bottom of the cooler, but this keeps > the humidity high, between 70% to 95%. I have the Nepenthes in individual > water trays, so the extra water in the cooler does not flood the plants. I > also siphon out any excess water using a turkey baster and water my other > plants with it. The growth rate of the highland Nepenthes is noticeably > slower than with lowland Nepenthes. I had placed live spaghnum moss in each > of the pots. The moss is growing faster than the plants, and I have to > periodically trim back the moss. > This particular setup is excellent for fast growing of live spaghnum moss. > > One other extra bonus, is this Coleman unit is also a heater. I can > reconfigure it in the winter to warm the plants, which I will be doing > shortly. > > Ron > > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > > ################### From: wb.sherren@ntlworld.com Fri Jan 4 11:58:23 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:54:29 -0000 Subject: Brown patchs on N.Stenophylla leaf. Hi With the English winter weather now really starting to bite, the greenhouse heaters are earning their keep! Today I noticed my reasonable size N.Stenophylla has developed brown areas to both sides of its latest leaf, covering about 50% of each side. The previous leaves don't look too bad, and the last pitcher to develop still looks okay (not opened). As growth has now stopped I am hoping this sudden appearance of brown edges won't affect the next generation of growth. But as this latest leaf has not fully unfolded, what is the best course of action? The plant is kept with my other Highlands in my greenhouse at a min temp of 50f. I have moved it to maximise its exposure to light. Any other ideas, as I don't to lose it. cheers Bill www.fly-catchers.co.uk [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 12:35:32 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:35:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers >I've even thought about the CoolWorks IceProbe sold by Pet Warehouse and >others. It is supposed to be good for containers 50 gallons or less. I've seen something like this, but I believe it is designed to cool water, not air. To get it work in a terrarium, you would have to cool a container of water, which in turns cools the inside of the terrarium. >I may have a partial solution to the insulation. My thought is to get a >sheet of 1/2" styrofoam insulation, cut it to size, and cover the sides and >back of the terrarium, effectively reflecting lost light as well. That would work, but you still have to insulate the top and bottom as well. The downside, of course, if a terrarium is covered with so much insulation, it will not be very viewable. >The peltier junction units would probably work well in a highland tissue culture cabinet of about 20 gallon size. Eventually, my Nepenthes are going to outgrow my cooler setup, so I'll have to move to a larger enclosure, so I'd be interested to see what you come up with. The peltier unit would need to have a heat sink attached with a fan to be more effective, and on the other side of the peltier unit which is hot, you have to channel that heat away. Ron Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 12:44:02 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:44:00 -0800 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers >>I've even thought about the CoolWorks IceProbe The IceProbe costs $99. Ouch. Also, it is advertised to drop 10 gallons of water up to 8 degree below ambient temperature, which really isn't that much of a drop. The cooler I'm using can drop the air temperature 45 degrees below ambient temperature. Ron Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 12:55:30 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:55:28 -0800 Subject: Re: New Donald Schnell Book Hmmm.....Amazon and Barnes & Noble list the book at 348 pages. Timber Press has it at 472 pages. I wonder which one is correct? Ron Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Fri Jan 4 13:10:00 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:09:49 -0600 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers Ron, Well, the only affordable alternative to glass is acrylic, preserving the viewability and adding insulation at the same time. And that's my next project. Building a larger terrarium out of 3/8" polycarbonate. Then the insulation issue is not so important. As for the bottom, with 6-8" of medium I don't think this will be a problem. As far as the heat, etc., If the peltier units were mounted on the side of an insulated box, like your cooler, a small fan (thermostat controlled) could be used to continuously blow the cooler air in the box into the terrarium via dryer vent hose or some other means. In essence, a small air conditioner without the expense of running a compressor. Then it comes down to how many peltier junctions are necessary to keep up with the needed volume of cooled air. I'll keep working on this as there is definitely more experimentation needed. Please keep me informed on your progress as well. Thank you. Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 2:35 PM > > > > >I've even thought about the CoolWorks IceProbe sold by Pet Warehouse and > >others. It is supposed to be good for containers 50 gallons or less. > > I've seen something like this, but I believe it is designed to cool water, > not air. To get it work in a terrarium, you would have to cool a container > of water, which in turns cools the inside of the terrarium. > > >I may have a partial solution to the insulation. My thought is to get a > >sheet of 1/2" styrofoam insulation, cut it to size, and cover the sides and > >back of the terrarium, effectively reflecting lost light as well. > > That would work, but you still have to insulate the top and bottom as well. > The downside, of course, if a terrarium is covered with so much insulation, > it will not be very viewable. > > >The peltier junction units would probably work well > in a highland tissue culture cabinet of about 20 gallon size. > > Eventually, my Nepenthes are going to outgrow my cooler setup, so I'll have > to move to a larger enclosure, so I'd be interested to see what you come up > with. > > The peltier unit would need to have a heat sink attached with a fan to be > more effective, and on the other side of the peltier unit which is hot, you > have to channel that heat away. > > Ron > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > ################### From: dhcl604@yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 13:41:15 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:41:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for Anfreas Wistuba Hello All, Pardon this posting but I need to contact Andreas Wistuba. After e-mailing him several times, I still haven't received a reply. Does anyone know if he is away on holiday? Thanks. Dave Heule Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 15:07:20 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:28:03 -0600 Subject: Re: CNN article 1/4/02 1:28:30 PM, HmrTheHrmt@aol.com wrote: >I only get an error message. Was it significantly different from >the other articles? > Go to CNN.COM and search for nepenthes. Wayne ################### From: emckee00@yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 15:16:26 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:16:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stovehouse plants address? Does anyone have the mailing address of Stovehouseplants.com? They're web page is down at the moment and I was hoping to place an order (before they're sale ends tomorrow!). Please email me off-list. Thanks in advance, Erik McKee Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: andreas@wistuba.com Fri Jan 4 15:19:08 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 00:18:44 +0100 Subject: AW: Looking for Anfreas Wistuba Hi list, I'm alive (;-) though I had a little while off. Bye Andreas -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com] Im Auftrag von David Heule Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Januar 2002 22:45 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: Looking for Anfreas Wistuba Hello All, Pardon this posting but I need to contact Andreas Wistuba. After e-mailing him several times, I still haven't received a reply. Does anyone know if he is away on holiday? Thanks. Dave Heule Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: curt.onstott@orst.edu Fri Jan 4 16:38:59 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:37:44 -0800 Subject: Don't cheat on those watering schedules! I've been away from the office since last Friday. Instead of going in on Wed. to take care of my CP's, I waited until today. I was horrified to find that all of the leaves and pitchers on my N. gracillis had shriveled and dried out from lack of water. What a bummer!! It had been doing very well-- some of its many, many, pitchers were nearly 2.5 inches tall. I'm hoping that there it a spark of life left in it, but I'm not holding my breath. ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 17:28:58 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 19:49:38 -0600 Subject: Aquarium water Is aquarium water suitable for CPs, or is it full of nasty salts that they won't like? Wayne ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Fri Jan 4 18:06:41 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:06:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Aquarium water On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Wayne Morrow wrote: > > Is aquarium water suitable for CPs, or is it full of nasty salts that > they won't like? Depends on the water--if it came from a hard water source, it definitely has salts that might not work well with carnivorous plants. Hard water or not, the BIG problem might be that if there were fish in the water there will be lots of dissolved nitrates and a few dissolved nitrites and even a little ammonia, all of which might be really bad for the plants. OTOH, I use aquarium water for garden plants and cacti all the time. Sean Barry ################### From: dmerritt@blackduck.net Fri Jan 4 18:07:15 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 20:11:23 -0600 Subject: VFT Hi, I have a VFT on exhibit at the science center where I work. It is now flowering. I never put it down for the winter with the other VFTs as it never looked ready to go down, and it draws a lot of attention from visitors at the center. I was waiting till after the holidays to force it to go down, only now it is flowering. This seems entirely out of time to me. It is also a very small plant. It never did grow like the other ones. Does anyone know what triggers flowering in VFTs? Would it be daylight hrs? It is under artificial light. I will probably go ahead and let it finish flowering because of the interest in it, and because I do have other plants in the fridg. But I would like to know why it is flowering now. It can't think it is spring as I live in northern Minnesota. Thank you. Anita [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: dcbertelsen@peoplepc.com Fri Jan 4 18:08:37 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 20:11:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Don't cheat on those watering schedules! Curt, I feel your pain... I was repotting a couple of Drosophyllum seedlings last night and shut the heat off in my growing area. At least it only got down to 50 F inside... Doug ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 6:47 PM > > I've been away from the office since last Friday. Instead of going in on > Wed. to take care of my CP's, I waited until today. > > I was horrified to find that all of the leaves and pitchers on my N. > gracillis had shriveled and dried out from lack of water. What a bummer!! > It had been doing very well-- some of its many, many, pitchers were nearly > 2.5 inches tall. > > I'm hoping that there it a spark of life left in it, but I'm not holding my > breath. > > ################### From: Jeff@World.Org Fri Jan 4 18:09:39 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 21:09:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Termites and N. albomarginata. Hi everyone, A friend came across this story on Discovery, and passed it along to me. The news article talks about research by Marlis Merbach and others at Johann Wolfgang Goethe Institute in Frankfurt, Germany. http://dsc.discovery.com/news/reu/20011231/plant.html They have discovered a special adaption of Nepenthes albomarginata that causes it to capture enormous numbers of termites in the wild. Maybe people should plant these around their wooden homes in the Southeast, at least when it is not snowing, as it has been this week. :-) Best wishes, Jeff Gold ___________________________________ Web Site: http://www.World.Org ----------------------------------- World Environmental Organization Southeast U.S. Headquarters 2001 J.T. Elder Road Watkinsville, Georgia 30677 Phone: (706) 769-9696 Fax: (706) 769-6969 mailto:Jeff@World.Org ___________________________________ ################### From: ajbroome@xtra.co.nz Fri Jan 4 19:54:41 2002 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 16:56:17 +1300 Subject: Re: "Pandora's box" in the genus Drosera Steven Stewart, > It would seem all Drosera binata clones I have grown that are "pure" > are self incompatable... Certainly, in my experience, the New Zealand forms (from various locations but all similar in appearance) of D. binata that I've grown have all been self-fertile and seed freely in my collection. To the extent that they rival D. capensis as a weed... Andrew. ################### From: imduff@hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 21:08:46 2002 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 05:08:44 Subject: Re: Sarracenia cultivars >I am a avid Sarracenia grower, and just love the plants, but if all >one >has to do is pick every different hybrid and put it in cultivar >status >then I will fill a 100 page periodical with new cultivars! >I must have 5 different forms of S. x formosa, but are they all of >cultivar status? I doubt it, I am a legend only in my own mind. Then > >someone else can name there cultivar of S. x formosa after themselves > >and the whole thing becomes a diluted mess of nothing. Personally, I'm excited about seeing plants named, especially Sarracenia. I don't envision a surplus of potential cultivars being submitted for registration. Certainly, there may be cultivars created that are "unspectacular." To a degree this is a matter of opinion. Most of John Hummer's hybrids were created years, even decades, ago. Because of John's generosity, his hybrids have found their way into many collections. He deserves credit for his efforts; growers with his plants should recognize his creations. I don't have to list John's contributions to the hobby, but it's fair to mention that he's a pioneer. As a hybridizer, I feel that he has an "eye" for these plants. Having seen many of his hybrids, I'm impressed with the beauty of his creations. He selects plants based upon numerous characteristics, rather than simple deviations from the norm. Stefan Ploszak Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 23:34:00 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 02:33:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia cultivars > Personally, I'm excited about seeing plants named, especially Sarracenia. I > don't envision a surplus of potential cultivars being submitted for > registration. Certainly, there may be cultivars created that are > "unspectacular." To a degree this is a matter of opinion. > Most of John Hummer's hybrids were created years, even decades, ago. Because > of John's generosity, his hybrids have found their way into many > collections. He deserves credit for his efforts; growers with his plants > should recognize his creations. Stefan, I was not knocking John, no more than Ca Carnivores for naming cultivars.. That wasn't the reason I posted my thread, and please don't take it that way. Being gifted living in the range of Sarracenia maybe I am biased. My point was simply if every S. x catesbaei is going to be considered a cultivar then the future is very bleak. Example I have a plant (S. flava x purpurea burkii) that several non-cp people have enjoyed seeing the past year. In no way do I consider the plant worthy of cultivar status. It is unique and I have to agree its better than a typical S. flava cut throat, but no, no its not worthy of cultivar status. Even if it was I wouldn't name it "Hunts classic catesbaei", but that is how I think. I understand now a little how things are named. We all have our own views on our future heritage and what that means to our own ego. In my opinion almost all Sarracenia hybrids are incredible, okay a few dogs. Now I am not sure whoever the Delores Wyland hybrid is named for is a compliment. This is another in a endless stream of psittacinea crosses that borders on pure sooner, not good hybrid/cultivar at -all yet named. Ugh, this plant does not deserve cultivar status yet it s a named cultivar. How could this be named, well someone liked it, named it, published it. The future sales potential are nil for the clone I saw. Of course others may love it, though I doubt it. Because I cross a S. minor with a S. alata does that make a cultivar? I don't think so. What we have happening now is a lot of this sort of thing. I have seen far better S. rubra wherryi x lecuophyllas in the field and yet the ones pictured and framed in the CPN represent a pitiful example of what the hybrid really can be and is in certain genetic examples. But they were named, so that is how it is. We have plants name for the "blood of Dracula" or some other monster, and without a doubt someone displaying these plants will rip a pitcher open to show the consumed prey that is being digested, they will smile while doing this and people will go "gross", I don't want that kind of stinky plant at my home" then run off to by a carrion flower succulent. Imagine if we all saw the contents of a super models gut, I think sports Illustrated would not have a good swim suit issue. Should there me more discretion towards naming of future cultivars? I say yes, its pure bull to name any plant a person wants a cultivar because its not been coined before. This is pure silly. A countless list of rubra hybrids will outrun ink shortly. Certainly many hybrids are pretty and unique I don't doubt this, I know this. But all Sarracenia are not worthy of cultivar status, and I have seen nothing written that prevents stupid duplicates of the same plants. We have heard here that this is not the fact, yet in print (CPN) every issue is dotted with cultivars that may not be deserving of the status. I feel last year many were not, I feel it will complicate and confuse a already mixed up matter. I feel its worth further discussion, I am not happy with the answers about this. I have seen the mess with Nepenthes, it will always be a mess through my life time. We not have the same problems to the extreme with Sarracenia. Even with the best records things run a foul, take Ladies in Waiting I can name 2 sources with different heritage for the plant both documented from the creator of the plant. One is on the data base the other at the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens. Both these sources have different crosses named for the same plant (Ladies in Waiting, a dramatic cultivar) You know we don't even class S. flava as genetic subspecies, when S. rubra grabs the attention. Let me tell you a S. flava in North Carolina is different than most in northwest Florida, you don't have to be a botanist to see this. Yet S. rubra gulfensis and S. rubra Carolina are different animals yet in the field look almost alike to the horticulturist. This is a job for botanist, not the horticulturist. Naming redundant Cultivars, or plants that have no place being cultivars takes space, money, & time for the horticulturist. Certainly some will get through, and maybe they should. But here we name many of the same hybrids without any outstanding charteristics a cultivar. Some of these plants are just not worth it in the long run, we need to snuff this out now by form or a group that judges cultivar status. Otherwise get ready, as the trend catches on there will be 500 different cultivars of S. minor in the very near future. S. minor"looks different than John Does" S.minor " Big Ted Bundy" S.minor " Doe's giant- the great one" S. minor "copper mouth with a red lip" S. minor "The mummies severed toe" ... all from seed of the same plant The last point- most of these plants are not making it into commercial propagation. At this point commercial propagation via tissue culture in the USA is almost nil. I have to out reach to Australia to find in-vitro plants. Many of these are what they can import and may not be the best clones for species. There are some hot hybrids in Australia. In the USA we are extremely limited as to Sarracenia. We are held by what a major lab feels is commercially marketable, these may not be (I don't think they are good choices at all) successful in the long run. To this date in the US we have no successful S. flava clones in tissue culture for commercial propagation, yet we have Delores Wyland (S. psittacina x rubra wherryi). A has been cultivar when the real prize remains covered. This is going to change soon. Mike St. Petersburg Florida .. I ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 5 03:52:19 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 11:51:07 +0000 Subject: Re: Humidifier Water pH In message <000d01c194d2$cac78180$d79af340@mygamepc>, Tom Stubblefield writes > >Hello all, >Has anyone using an ultrasonic humidifier to fog a terrarium ever tried >adjusting the pH of the water down to keep the pH of the medium from >creeping upwards? If I do decide to try this, what would be a safe starting >pH? Wouldn't you want to use as pure water as possible with the ultrasonic humidifier? Otherwise I should think a few months of use would rapidly cause it to clog. Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 5 07:26:27 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:34:30 -0500 Subject: Utricularia calycifida 'Asenath Waite' Hello Barry, I remember when you offered this cultivar and a few other Utricularia to the list a while ago, but I was not able to take you up on the offer at the time. I thought the list would like to know ( I would) if you should be contacted personally, or if you have a supplier(s) that you could suggest we obtain a small amount of this cultivar from? I have found this species to be very beautiful and easy to grow, but I now have less than perfect conditions and my two forms rarely flower. Take care, Steve Stewart ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Sat Jan 5 09:34:58 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 09:34:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Too much humidity? I got a new terrarium for my nepenthes this christmas (yay!) and am having a good time with it. It's a 42 gallon Hex tank. I have one of those table-top water fall things that you see a novelty stores in with my nepenthes. The tanks has a tedency to get foggy because of the incredibly high humidity level as a result of the waterfall. I believe I heard somewhere that too much (possibly that much) humidity might cause root-rot, etc. I have a very healthy plant going on here and I would like to keep it that way, should I open up the tank at different times of the day to let the "fog" out? If so, is it better to do this during the night time or the day? I'm assuming night time to mimic the lower humidity levels these plants probably find at night. I'm also trying to water it a bit less since it's winter where I'm at - is this high humidity going to mess up the fact that I'm trying to get it through it's "dormancy" (understanding the nepenthes really don't have a dormancy, just a period of lower watering during the winter). Thanks! ~Ben --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Sat Jan 5 10:20:23 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:16:12 -0800 Subject: Re: Pandora's box >>...Sarracenia are less complex yet I have rarely heard of anyone boasting of same species, separate population hybrids in this genus, though I know by experience, such crosses have hybrid vigor. I could site a couple of other cp genera, but I have read that orchid, lilies and grass species and genera are even more complicated, in their reproductive outcrossing potential. Is this simply because of errors in the history of Botanical nomenclature? Thank you to anyone with insight to my inquiry. Take care, Steven Stewart Hi Steven and all, Yes, there are errors. Here is a big one I'm sure a lot of you have noticed. There is a conflict between the principle of introgressive hybridization and a current rule of nomenclature. The rule is simply wrong. The rule states that a hybrid, no matter how many times it is backcrossed to one of the parents, can never again be labeled as that parent species, but instead must always remain a hybrid. Here is an example you will be familiar with: An expert knows that Sarracenia flava varieties have gained their polymorphism through introgression. These S. flava varieties are correctly labeled so, yet an expert knows they are of hybrid origin. According to the the rule of nomenclature, the plants must be labeled S. flava hybrids. ...creeek (sound of box opening) Hope that helps:-) -Ivan http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: curt.onstott@orst.edu Sat Jan 5 12:28:01 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 12:26:31 -0800 Subject: RE: Too much humidity? If you let the ultrasonic humidifier run all of the time, the humidity will get too high. I'm using a humidifying humidistat from greenair products to control my fogger and keep my humidity between 70 and 90%. As long as there is not condensation on the sides of the tank, your humidity is not too high. One funny thing with my humidifier, was that it had a low water level sensor that depended on the conductivity of the water to tell it that there was water in the container. The distilled water I use would not conduct! I had to short the sensor leads to tell it to run. ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Sat Jan 5 13:22:28 2002 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 21:22:26 +0000 Subject: u. calcyfida 'asenath waite' and epiphytic seed thanks hello, barry, i grow this cultivar of yours. it has done well for me and is gradually filling its pot. the only other utric i can compare it to in my collection is your cultivar 'mrs. marsh'; the former seems to be doing much better though both are grown side by side. neither has flowered yet but i suspect they need to get bigger first. there is a picture of my plant at: www.geocities.com/pingenstein/asenath2.jpg also thanks to all who emailed me regarding the sowing of epiphytic utric seeds. interestingly, there was no consensus! however the range of suggestions (60:40 peat sand, boiled long fibre sphagnum, pure milled sphagnum) are all fairly close to each other. thanks folks.--mike Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 5 13:42:15 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:35:09 -0500 Subject: Drosera binata Hello Andrew and all, Thank you for your insight to the self compatability of Drosera binata complex in New Zealand. This shows that what Jan said about cultural information being subject to environmental conditions to be right on the mark. (or is that Euro now ? ;)) I have always grown this plant in greenhouses in Colorado and Florida, that are most likely very different than conditions in New Zealand. Take care, Steve Stewart ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 5 13:42:21 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:50:29 -0500 Subject: Pandora's box Hello Ivan and all, They probably should be labeled Sarracenia flava hybrids, until a (or group of) geneticist(s) or botanist(s) is(are) eloquent and or charismatic enough to convince a generation of people that there is only one "real" species in the genus Sarracenia... Take care, Steve Stewart > Hi Steven and all, > > Yes, there are errors. Here is a big one I'm sure a lot of you have > noticed. There is a conflict between the principle of introgressive > hybridization and a current rule of nomenclature. The rule is simply > wrong. The rule states that a hybrid, no matter how many times it is > backcrossed to one of the parents, can never again be labeled as that > parent species, but instead must always remain a hybrid. Here is an > example you will be familiar with: An expert knows that Sarracenia flava > varieties have gained their polymorphism through introgression. These S. > flava varieties are correctly labeled so, yet an expert knows they are of > hybrid origin. According to the the rule of nomenclature, the plants must > be labeled S. flava hybrids. > ...creeek (sound of box opening) > > Hope that helps:-) > -Ivan > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > Topic No. 21 > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 12:26:31 -0800 > From: curt.onstott@orst.edu > To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com > Subject: RE: Too much humidity? > Message-ID: > > > If you let the ultrasonic humidifier run all of the time, the humidity will > get too high. I'm using a humidifying humidistat from greenair products to > control my fogger and keep my humidity between 70 and 90%. As long as there > is not condensation on the sides of the tank, your humidity is not too high. > > One funny thing with my humidifier, was that it had a low water level sensor > that depended on the conductivity of the water to tell it that there was > water in the container. The distilled water I use would not conduct! I had > to short the sensor leads to tell it to run. > > ------------------------------ > > End of CP Digest 2790 > ********************* ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Sat Jan 5 14:09:01 2002 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 16:08:51 -0600 Subject: Sarracenia flava polymorphism
Ivan,
 
I don't think I saw any article on Sarracenia flava gaining polymorphism through introgression last time I did a lit. search (been a while. Maybe a year?) on the genus. New things come up really quick as we know. I don't know what fingerpriniting technique they used (microsattelite, AFLP, SNP, etc), and  I am very curious. I am wondering if you can give me the citation.
 
<Here is an example you will be familiar with: An expert knows that Sarracenia flava varieties have gained their polymorphism through introgression. These S. flava varieties are correctly labeled so, yet an expert knows they are of hybrid origin. According to the the rule of nomenclature, the plants must be labeled S. flava hybrids. >


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################### From: imduff@hotmail.com Sat Jan 5 20:37:11 2002 Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 04:37:08 Subject: Re: Sarracenia cultivars Mike, >My point was simply if every S. x catesbaei is going to be considered >a >cultivar then the future is very bleak. >Example I have a plant (S. flava x purpurea burkii) that several non-cp >people have enjoyed seeing the past year. In no way do I consider the > >plant worthy of cultivar status. It is unique and I have to agree its > >better than a typical S. flava cut throat, but no, no its not worthy >of >cultivar status. I understand your point, clearly. The criteria for naming a plant as a cultivar is very general. Certainly, any plant that deviates from the typical form could become a cultivar. Hopefully, plants that become named have more merit than that. Your example of the catesbaei states this well. Incidently, one of the more astute Sarracenia hybridizers, Dr.Mellichamp, has created a catesbaei that is beyond typical. This plant is "perfect" in form, color, appearance. As well, the pitchers are very sturdy and prolific. This plant is beautiful and unique for many reasons, even though it is simply a catesbaei cross. >In my opinion almost all Sarracenia hybrids are incredible, okay a few >dogs. >Now I am not sure whoever the Delores Wyland hybrid is named for is a >compliment. This is another in a endless stream of psittacinea crosses >that >borders on pure sooner, >not good hybrid/cultivar at -all yet named. Ugh, this plant does not >deserve cultivar status yet it s a named cultivar. How could this be >named, >well someone liked it, named it, published it. The future sales potential >are nil for the clone I saw. Of course others may love it, though I doubt >it. Recently, there was a discussion about a Sarracenia hybrid, produced in California, called "Cobra's Nest." I feel this plant has unique characteristics, but is uninteresting. As well, the plant has circulated into many collections. It's not a plant that appeals to me, but I feel it deserves cultivar status. I made a similar argument about John's hybrids; they are unique and they've circulated, so credit should be established. Although, I find John's hybrids very "showy," as well. Because I cross a S. minor with a S. alata does that make a cultivar? >I don't think so. Not necessarily. Although, you may get lucky and produce something worth naming. >We have plants name for the "blood of >Dracula" or some other monster, and without a doubt someone displaying >these >plants will rip a pitcher open to show the consumed prey that is being >digested, they will smile while doing this and people will go "gross", I >don't want that kind of stinky plant at my home" then run off to by a >carrion flower succulent. Imagine if we all saw the contents of a super >models gut, I think sports Illustrated would not have a good swim suit >issue. LOL. The contents would have already been vomitted. :) > >Should there me more discretion towards naming of future cultivars? I say >yes, its pure bull to name any plant a person wants a cultivar because its >not been coined before. This is pure silly. A countless list of rubra >hybrids will outrun ink shortly. Certainly many hybrids are pretty and >unique I don't doubt this, I know this. But all Sarracenia are not worthy >of cultivar status, and I have seen nothing written that prevents stupid >duplicates of the same plants. IMO, the desire to establish Sarracenia cultivars is in relative "infancy." Perhaps the early days of rose or orchid hybridizing produced some poor cultivars. However, today's cultivars are usually something very desirable. Hopefully, Sarracenia hybridizing will continue to evolve to produce plants beyond imagination in beauty. >Even with the best records things run a foul, take Ladies in Waiting I >can >name 2 sources with different heritage for the plant both documented from >the creator of >the plant. One is on the data base the other at the Brooklyn Botanic >Gardens. Both these sources have different crosses named for the same >plant >(Ladies in Waiting, a dramatic cultivar) This situation for 'Judith Hindle' is even worse. The confusion is probably due to the fact that the exact crosses are unknown and the originators speculate the parentage. >You know we don't even class S. flava as genetic subspecies, when S. rubra >grabs the attention. Let me tell you a S. flava in North Carolina is >different than most in northwest Florida, you don't have to be a botanist >to >see this. Yet S. rubra gulfensis and S. rubra Carolina are different >animals yet in the field look almost alike to the horticulturist. This is a >job for botanist, not the horticulturist. The taxonomy can become somewhat political. Giving S.alabamensis species or sub-species status could allow for certain environmental protections that wouldn't occur for variety status. Your point is clear that Sarracenia taxonomy is incomplete. Naming redundant Cultivars, or >plants that have no place being cultivars takes space, money, & time for >the >horticulturist. Certainly some will get through, and maybe they should. >But here we name many of the same hybrids without any outstanding >charteristics a cultivar. Some of these plants are just not worth it in the >long run, we need to snuff this out now by form or a group that judges >cultivar status. Otherwise get ready, as the trend catches on there will >be >500 different cultivars of S. minor in the very near future. I disagree. I don't think there will ever be an epidemic of establishing Sarracenia cultivars. As Sarracenia hybridizing evolves, the plants becoming established as cultivars will as well. The process of having a group to judge cultivars is impractical and flawed. >The last point- most of these plants are not making it into commercial >propagation. At this point commercial propagation via tissue culture in >the >USA is almost nil. I have to out reach to Australia to find in-vitro >plants. Many of these are what they can import and may not be the best >clones for species. There are some hot hybrids in Australia. In the USA >we >are extremely limited as to Sarracenia. We are held by what a major lab >feels is commercially marketable, these may not be (I don't think they are >good choices at all) successful in the long run. To this date in the US we >have no successful S. flava clones in tissue culture for commercial >propagation, yet we have Delores Wyland (S. psittacina x rubra wherryi). Commercial propagators produce plants that they feel are marketable. For Sarracenia they desire plants that are short, sturdy and pitcher well. I love the flava varieties, but they usually don't have any of these characteristics. I agree that some of the best plants do not have widespread availability. I'd be interested to know which Australian plants you have found. I've always contended that the best Sarracenia come from the US. :) I've enjoyed the discussion. Stefan Ploszak Matthews,NC Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: dcbertelsen@peoplepc.com Sun Jan 6 05:56:00 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 07:58:12 -0600 Subject: Trichoderma and Cephalotus With all of the excitement of trichoderma, I purchased some and applied to a pot of Cephalotus. No big difference yet (only been about 3 weeks), but I noticed that the leaf cuttings in the same pot began to decompose rapidly. I'd suggest thoroughly washing cuttings and placing them in non-treated soils. Doug [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: csvieira@epm.net.co Sun Jan 6 06:26:36 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 09:23:50 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?D=2Enitidula=20ssp=2E=20nitidula=20for=20trade?= Hi, I have some gemma of D.nitidula ssp nitidula and am willing to trade for gemmae of other pigmie (specially looking for D.scorpioides) E-mail me privately if anyone is interested. Regards, Sebastian Vieira Medellin COLOMBIA ------------------------- Sebastian Vieira U. EEPPM E.S.P ________________________________________ Acceso ra'pido a Internet con Epm.Net http://www.epm.net.co ################### From: venusflytrap@bushinternet.com Sun Jan 6 06:49:37 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:43:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Foil in terrarium-risk of electric shock With reference to posting about earthing foil in a terrarium, I always use a residual current device on my Nepenthes tank, it goes beteen the plug and the wall socket. If the tank were to become live and you touched it, the electricity would be cut off immediately, so quick that you probably wouldn't even notice. They used to be called earth leakage circuit breakers, I don't know what they are called in other countries. I do remember, though, to take the breaker off the tank when I go on holiday, it can trip sometimes for no reason. We don't want to lose any CP growers, there are not enough of us as it is ! Regards David Ahrens London ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Sun Jan 6 09:19:13 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 09:14:48 -0800 Subject: Re: Hybrids and species >>The case of _D. tokaiensis_ is exactly as obvious and simple genetically and taxonomically, and still some people would rather treat it as an independent species just because it is *not* sterile... Hideka Hi Hideka, Jan, and all, That's not all of it. Ivan >>_D. tokaiensis_ is so similar to one parent species (_D. spatulata_) that it has been treated as a subsp. of it before it was discovered that part of its chromosomes are exact copies of those of _D. rotundifolia_ (which is morphologically not too far away, either). The offspring of _D. tokaiensis_ is, therefore, not very surprising (again very similar to _D. spatulata_, or _D. tokaiensis_ for that matter). The decisive point for my interpretation here (I regard _D. tokaiensis_ as a hybrid like _D. obovata_) is neither morphological (which would favour inclusion in _D. spatulata_)... Jan I talked to Professor Kondo about this and he too feels this way. The three of you share this philosophy because, sorry, you are ignorant of all the facts. Ivan >>nor genetical (which would favour segregation as a separate species like _D. anglica_) but chorological: Like _D. obovata_... Jan Firstly, you must realize that allopolyploids are by convention accepted as species, as in the case with D. anglica. Secondly, another reason for distinction is that D. tokaiensis is a hexaploid and so cannot interbreed with tetraploid D. spatulata. The offspring would be sterile pentaploids. It's simple, 3 + 2 = 5. Odd ploidys are always sterile. This is another example of the mathematical exactness I like, and you must learn. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: cmccarth@wvnvm.wvnet.edu Sun Jan 6 12:16:28 2002 Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 15:17:26 -0500 Subject: how many is enough of each one? Hello fellow cp'ers, I have a question that is a little off topic, but I hope you will bare with me. To maintain a specimen of a particular plant in a collection, what is the optimum number of examples? Or asked another way: Is it reasonable for an institution to say, we will only keep one pot of each specimen and that will be fine? On or off list answers are fine with me. Anyone who tries to keep special plants in "permanent collections" is free to answer. Please tell me in your answer if you are answering from the perspective of a commercial, individual devoted hobbyist or institutional, (educational i.e. university, etc) setting. I am just trolling for opinions. Thanks in advance for your time. Carol. ################### From: aarongunnar@home.com Sun Jan 6 12:52:06 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:51:44 -0600 Subject: re: Sarracenia cultivars {Delores Wyland} >>In my opinion almost all Sarracenia hybrids are incredible, okay a few dogs. Now I am not sure whoever the Delores Wyland hybrid is named for is a compliment. This is another in a endless stream of psittacinea crosses that borders on pure sooner, not good hybrid/cultivar at -all yet named. Ugh, this plant does not deserve cultivar status yet it s a named cultivar.<< Where can I get one of these Delores Wyland cultivars? After reading the none-to-kind words about it, I felt bad and would like to get one and give it the love and attention that apparently few others are capable of {wink}. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 13:14:57 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:14:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paranoia with watering my nepenthes Alright, I have just proven to myself that I'm very paranoid with water my nepenthes, by how much I'm sitting here worrying about it. The whole, less in the winter and more in the summer has me worried. I tried moving back on the amount of water I was giving my plant and lost a pitcher or two, then I started watering it again more. I haven't noticed much of a change in the plant. It's still very healthy, but, having lost two pitchers makes me very paranoid. Just touching the soil and saying, "that's enough" isn't good for me because I don't know the nature of these plants well enough to say, "that's healthy" or, "that's unhealthy". So, if someone out there could give me a more numeric example of how much they water their nepenthes (this is a gracilis). As in mililiters, etc. each day in the winter and in the summer. I touch and soil right now and it feels slightly damp, I have moss covering the plant and part of that moss takes the water up, so, when I water the plant I'm not sure if I'm not giving it enough water because of the moss cover. My apologies for those out there who are getting annoyed by my questioning about watering this plant, but, I think I have decided that I'm paranoid and would like some actual examples of how much someone waters their plants besides statements such as "damp" or "less damp" because I'm not sure what the means in relation to these plants. Thanks, Ben --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 6 13:31:11 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:38:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Foil in terrarium-risk of electric shock Dave, > >With reference to posting about earthing foil in a terrarium, I always >use a residual current device on my Nepenthes tank, it goes beteen the >plug and the wall socket. If the tank were to become live and you >touched it, the electricity would be cut off immediately, so quick that >you probably wouldn't even notice. They used to be called earth leakage >circuit Absolutely agree here. You have to use an RCD with any electrical device that is liable to become live. The RCD is designed to operate before you feel anything. The standard disconnection time is 30mS in the EC at least. However it should not be assumed the RCD will automatically make an unsafe piece of equipment safe. It is a mechanical device and as such is liable to failure, regardless of how reliable these pieces of equipment are. >breakers, I don't know what they are called in other countries. I do >remember, though, to take the breaker off the tank when I go on >holiday, it can trip sometimes for no reason. We don't want to lose any >CP growers, there are not enough of us as it is ! -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: CMcdon0923@aol.com Sun Jan 6 14:41:57 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:41:49 EST Subject: Re: how many is enough of each one? Personally I like to maintain, at minimum, three examples of anything I am growing (mainly Sarrenecia), and preferably up to six of each. This ensures that if I would lose a specimen or two, I would still have sufficient plants remaining to rebuild the stock of that particular species (etc.). Craig McDonald "individual devoted hobbyist" ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Sun Jan 6 15:09:38 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:50:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Foil in terrarium-risk of electric shock At 6:51 AM -0800 1/6/02, david ahrens wrote: >With reference to posting about earthing foil in a terrarium, I >always use a residual current device on my Nepenthes tank, it goes >beteen the plug and the wall socket. If the tank were to become live >and you touched it, the electricity would be cut off immediately, so >quick that you probably wouldn't even notice. They used to be called >earth leakage circuit breakers, I don't know what they are called in >other countries. Here in the US, they're known as GFIs or GFCIs, for Ground-Fault Interruptors or Ground-Fault Current Interruptors. -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: voodoodancer@hotmail.com Sun Jan 6 15:35:12 2002 Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 18:35:11 -0500 Subject: Subject: Re: Foil in terrarium-risk of electric shock In the USA these devices are call Ground fault current interrupters, or GFI for short. They are designed to reduce the risk of electrical shock. When the hot (power) wire comes in contact with the neutral or ground wire they will trip, like a breaker, shutting off the power before you even know anything has happened. If some of you still don't know what these things are, go to your kitchen or bathroom, (if your house is less than about 15 years old) look for the weird electrical plug with the buttons. Most of the time one of these buttons will be red and it will say reset, the other button will say test or trip. I don't know about the rest of the world but in the US any new building will have to have one of these within 6 feet of a water source, like your sink or bathtub. With all the humidity that we use with our plants it is always a good idea to have one of these installed, because moisture can get into the electrical systems, and when that happens you will not know until you touch it. If you are not an electrician or you don't feel comfortable installing one, you can buy a GFI protected cord. All you do is plug it in the wall. If anyone has any questions about this I'll be glad to answer them, just email me. And by the way, I know what I'm talking about because I have to work as an electrician to support my CP habit. Mark Dave, > >With reference to posting about earthing foil in a terrarium, I always use >a residual current device on my Nepenthes tank, it goes beteen the plug and >the wall socket. If the tank were to become live and you touched it, the >electricity would be cut off immediately, so quick that you probably >wouldn't even notice. They used to be called earth leakage circuit Absolutely agree here. You have to use an RCD with any electrical device that is liable to become live. The RCD is designed to operate before you feel anything. The standard disconnection time is 30mS in the EC at least. However it should not be assumed the RCD will automatically make an unsafe piece of equipment safe. It is a mechanical device and as such is liable to failure, regardless of how reliable these pieces of equipment are. >breakers, I don't know what they are called in other countries. I do >remember, though, to take the breaker off the tank when I go on holiday, it >can trip sometimes for no reason. We don't want to lose any CP growers, >there are not enough of us as it is ! Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Sun Jan 6 15:44:03 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 18:17:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Trichoderma and Cephalotus At 6:02 AM -0800 1/6/02, Douglas Bertelsen wrote: >With all of the excitement of trichoderma, I purchased some and >applied to a pot of Cephalotus. No big difference yet (only been >about 3 weeks), but I noticed that the leaf cuttings in the same pot >began to decompose rapidly. Can you grow leaf cuttings of Cephalotus in the same pot? I was under the impression that they would always fail due to proximity to the parent. >I'd suggest thoroughly washing cuttings >and placing them in non-treated soils. I just got 2 Cephalotus about 2 weeks ago. I took them out of the Ziploc they shipped in & put them in separate pots. There were 2 pieces, 1 pitcher & 1 leaf, that had fallen off in shipping. I potted them up in smaller pots. All 4 pots were filled slightly more than halfway with a peat/sand/finely chopped Sphagnum mixture treated with Trichoderma, then filled the rest of the way with a medium-chopped long-fiber/live Sphagnum mix. I put the potted plants in my terrarium, & the potted cuttings in Ziploc bags in my window, & went away for a week. On my return, I was horrified & dismayed to see that the plants were nearly dead, probably due to low humidity &/or proximity to my lights. I went to check on the cuttings. The leaf was decaying rapidly, but the pitcher was still nice & green. This was pretty far from a controlled scientific experiment, so I'm not sure what it proves other than this: Trichoderma does not _necessarily_ kill leaf cuttings. For anyone interested, the plants are recovering nicely so far. -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 6 16:10:00 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:37:18 +0000 Subject: Re: how many is enough of each one? Carol, From an amateur collector's point of view it is a little dangerous to just have a single specimen of a plant. Even the best and most dedicated grower can lost plants occasionally and just keeping the one plant means that there is no way to protect against such losses. As to what the optimum number of examples that depends on a lot of things, not least the amount of space you have in your growing area. I guess the rule of thumb is that the more specimens of each plant you have the less likely you are to lose them all. Even so, catastrophic losses of entire collections do occur, though they are thankfully rare. The only true way of preserving individual plants is to distribute spare plants among fellow collectors. Collectively the more people growing a plant the less likely it is that it will disappear. > >Hello fellow cp'ers, > I have a question that is a little off topic, but I hope you will bare >with me. To maintain a specimen of a particular plant in a collection, >what is the optimum number of examples? Or asked another way: Is it >reasonable for an institution to say, we will only keep one pot of each >specimen and that will be fine? On or off list answers are fine with >me. Anyone who tries to keep special plants in "permanent collections" is >free to answer. Please tell me in your answer if you are answering from >the perspective of a commercial, individual devoted hobbyist or >institutional, (educational i.e. university, etc) setting. I am just >trolling for opinions. Thanks in advance for your time. -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: mindmaze@msn.com Sun Jan 6 16:36:10 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:35:49 -0400 Subject: CP locations in Puerto Rico This posting's scope is limited to the few CP growers located in Puerto Rico, but maybe others may be interested as well. Anyway, .... I went looking through Puerto Rican flora books, and found out that there are a couple of these plants native to the island (I'm very disappointed that there are no pings though :[ ). So far, I know of five: Drosera capillaris, Utricularia subulata, U. pusilla, U. juncea, and U. gibba. I was wondering if anyone knows where I may locate them. I know that D capillaris and U gibba can be found in the tortuguero lagoon, but the locations of the other three escapes me. Although my primary intention is to observe them in their habitat, I was also hoping to take a small specimen of each species, so that I could grow them with my other CPs. I'm going to make a water garden in my back yard, and I thought it would be interesting to have the U gibba in the pond and a little mini-bog next to it showcasing D capillaris and D capensis (which I have growing). I know that most CPers, includ ing myself, disapprove of field collecting, but I don't see any other way of getting these plants. I have however not read, and have not been told that field collecting these plants here is illegal. So, does anyone know where I can find them? Thanks in advance. Joel [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: brucesal@xtra.co.nz Sun Jan 6 19:29:48 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:28:35 +1300 Subject: NZCP Book Update Hi All Hopefully this will be the final NZCP Book update that I'll have to write. The book is at the binders and I have been assured by the printer that they will be delivered in the week beginning 14 Jan 2001. I'm sorry about the frustration this delay may have caused (including my own) but it's out of my hands. Thanks for your patience - the light at the end of the tunnel is much brighter now. Cheers Bruce ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Sun Jan 6 20:10:12 2002 Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 22:10:09 -0600 Subject: Re: John's hybrids > I made a similar argument about John's hybrids; > they are unique and they've circulated, so credit should be established. > Although, I find John's hybrids very "showy," as well. Are there any photos of John's hybrids available online? ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Sun Jan 6 20:53:38 2002 Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 22:53:36 -0600 Subject: Species and Hybrirds--scientific thinking
Ivan,
 
<I talked to Professor Kondo about this and he too feels this way. The three of you share this philosophy because, sorry, you are ignorant of all the facts. >

I did agree with Jan's logic (this does not necessarily mean I "swallowed" it w/o thinking, though). I think what you need to do is, presenting data/evidence, etc. other than to come up with your own belief, or labeling others who do not agree with you "ignorant." I think it is very "non-scientific," and "ignorant" itself.

<Firstly, you must realize that allopolyploids are by convention accepted as species, as in the case with D. anglica.>

Always?

<Secondly, another reason for distinction is that D. tokaiensis is a hexaploid and so cannot interbreed with tetraploid D. spatulata.>

As we often say, "proving" (many scientists argue that they really don't "prove" anything) A is NOT B is much harder than A is B. In science, we all deal with probability, and whatever the alpha level is, we reject the null hypothesis or fail to reject it. I beleive you have experience in some breeding, but what if this happens?

<The offspring would be sterile pentaploids. It's simple, 3 + 2 = 5. Odd ploidys are always sterile. This is another example of the mathematical exactness I like, and you must learn.>

This is NOT simply true. One example I can immediately come up with is, a Phalaenopsis hybrid. This particular hybrid (I think it was a Phal. Golden Sands hybrid, but not itself) was found to be pentaploid (5 n), but perfectly fertile. I think Robert Griesbach at USDA did a search on this, and what he found was, pollen of this hybrid was diploid.
 
It is certainly not a bad idea to learn there is always an exception to a "rule." As is known many plants exhibit endoploidy, and it is very possible the ploidy level of gametic cells is different from expected ones. Aside from endoploidy, many plants are chimeric in nature. Genetics (or cytogenetics for the matter) is not surely my speciality, but it is quite fascinating because of "seemingly" complex nature. There's more to it other than simple arithmetics.


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################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Sun Jan 6 21:34:29 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 00:34:56 -0500 Subject: Re: how many is enough of each one? At 12:22 PM -0800 1/6/02, cmccarth@wvu.edu wrote: >Hello fellow cp'ers, > I have a question that is a little off topic, but I hope you will bare >with me. To maintain a specimen of a particular plant in a collection, >what is the optimum number of examples? I'd say 3. >Or asked another way: Is it >reasonable for an institution to say, we will only keep one pot of each >specimen and that will be fine? Short answer: No. Long answer follows; excuse me if it sounds pedantic, I just want to be clear: If there's one thing I've learned from working in the IT world, it's this: Always keep a backup on-site, & another off-site. My friend Andrew's mail & web server was in the WTC. He lost the server & all the email received between September 8 & 11, but he had it back up & running on new hardware in my apartment on September 17 because he had his weekly offsite backup from the 7th. Now imagine the thermostat in your greenhouse getting stuck on the first night of a long weekend. Heaters blast the temperature up to 110 Fahrenheit as humidity drops to near zero, your prized Sarracenia cultivar "Pickman's Pride" withers to a brown husk along with the rest of your plants. Sucks, but it's not the end of the collection because there are plants in the other greenhouse. Of course, back in the IT world, there are limitations. A tape drive big enough to back up a 40 Gigabyte hard drive costs at least $1000, & the tapes are $75 apiece. Andrew didn't have a tape drive, he had a 650MB CD made with a $100 CD-R drive. The CD only held his unique data, not system files & programs. System files & programs are easily reinstalled & are generally considered "acceptable loss". Perhaps the other greenhouse in the example above is much smaller, only containing cultivars & expensive plants. Things like Drosera intermedia might be considered acceptable loss. Andrew's machine in the WTC had 2 disks: 1 was the active system disk, the other was an exact duplicate, copied nightly. If (oh, if only!) his hard disk had failed instead of being blown up, he would've been back up almost immediately, with less than 24 hours worth of mail loss. This on-site backup would be analogous to having a second plant growing in the main greenhouse. >On or off list answers are fine with >me. Anyone who tries to keep special plants in "permanent collections" is >free to answer. Please tell me in your answer if you are answering from >the perspective of a commercial, individual devoted hobbyist or >institutional, (educational i.e. university, etc) setting. I'm just a hobbyist. Not having much room, & not having a collection that matters to anyone but me, I only have duplicates of the smaller plants. It's a balancing act; only you can decide what acceptable loss is for you. >I am just trolling for opinions. >Thanks in advance for your time. >Carol. Hope this helps, -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: r.vanloenen@ssi-epic.shell.com Sun Jan 6 23:33:58 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:30:26 +0100 Subject: CUT OFF the flowerstalks after Sarracenia division? Gents, Some people advice to cut new emerging flower stalks from just divided Sarracenia's, to let not exhaust the recovering plant to much. Some people don't mind it. Last year I didn't cut off the flower stalks, but I am considering to cut off the half this year. But before I loose a lot of those beautiful flowers, what are your experiences with this? Thanks! Kind regards from Rogier,The Netherlands. ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Mon Jan 7 01:23:03 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 04:22:54 -0500 Subject: Speaking of Sarracenia hybrids... Hi Everyone-- I recently sowed as much Sarracenia seed that I harvested last autumn and have some left over that I'm offering up free to the first six responses, respective of seed type. (Sorry, US addresses only.) My pollination technique is far from exact, so be aware that both the viability and the purity of the cross can't be guaranteed. Here's a list of what I have: 2 -- batches each of: S. leucophylla (typical) x purpurea venosa, S. leucophylla = seed parent. S. leucophylla x flava "maxima", self-pollinated. 1 -- batch each of: S. flava "Coppertop", self-pollinated (although this clone has big floppy lids that almost look like it might have some purpurea in its distant past.) [S. leucophylla x flava "Maxima"] x S. leucophylla (typical), S. leucophylla x flava "Maxima" = seed parent. Of the "crosses," I have NO IDEA how they'll look or grow as adult plants, but I can tell you the leucophylla, purpurea venosa and flava "Coppertop" are hardy and vigorous growers, and the leucophylla x flava "Maxima" is grotesquely so. This particular clone is noteworthy for its large streaked orange/scarlet blossoms, and the monstrous rhizome that branches at a frightening rate, while its pitchers and phyllodia are nothing to write home about. To make it easier for me to divvy up who gets what, please *respond privately* with your name, mailing address and the top two you're interested in. I will send on a first come, first served basis, one seed type per person. In other words, you may not get your first choice. Note: if I could be more certain of the parentage, I would've donated them to the seed bank, but because I can't in all certainty guarantee parentage, I offer them to the list. If nothing else, you can sharpen your stratifying techniques with them. But hopefu! lly, you'll also grow them into beautiful adults, and then send me snapshots of your endeavor. :) Gary Kong -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Mon Jan 7 04:13:29 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:21:43 -0500 Subject: How many is enough of each one? Hello Carol, When I was working in a college greenhouse, I tried to keep at least 100 plants of each specimen I was growing. Usually three or more of each species in a mature flowering size state and the rest in tissue culture, seedlings or as rooted cuttings. This is _very_ dependent of the species being grown. Diversity is paramount in small populations and easily lost, resulting in very non-typical examples in many plants. I can think of exceptions to my arbitrary number in many cases. If you read the thread on Sarracenia, Drosera and Nepenthes currently going on you will easily see some exceptions. I am sure there are experts on this list that would disagree with me, so your (institution's) own sense of balance should be the final judge. The purpose of your collection is the real determining factor. Take care, Steve Stewart > Hello fellow cp'ers, . To maintain a specimen of a particular plant in a collection, > what is the optimum number of examples? Or asked another way: Is it > reasonable for an institution to say, we will only keep one pot of each > specimen and that will be fine? On or off list answers are fine with > me. Anyone who tries to keep special plants in "permanent collections" is > free to answer. Please tell me in your answer if you are answering from > the perspective of a commercial, individual devoted hobbyist or > institutional, (educational i.e. university, etc) setting. I am just > trolling for opinions. Thanks in advance for your time. > Carol. ################### From: dcbertelsen@peoplepc.com Mon Jan 7 04:14:15 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 06:16:27 -0600 Subject: Re: Trichoderma and Cephalotus Kit, I've had successful attempts at growing cuttings in the parent pot on several occasions. Doug > > Can you grow leaf cuttings of Cephalotus in the same pot? I was under > the impression that they would always fail due to proximity to the > parent. > ################### From: juerg.steiger@iae.unibe.ch Mon Jan 7 04:54:03 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:59:35 +0100 Subject: Addresses G Benda, HM Hanslin and S Gardner Dear all I lost the addresses of Georg Benda, Hans Martin Hanslin and Sara Gardner. Can anyone help? Thanks and all the best for 2002! Juerg ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Mon Jan 7 05:57:19 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:49:51 -0500 Subject: RE: how many is enough of each one? Hey Carol, I take care of (among other things) a public, permanent CP collection. I don't like to have just one of anything CP. I like to have a back up just in case something goes south. Its also allot easier to experiment and learn as a grower when you have a few plants to play around with. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of cmccarth@wvu.edu Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 3:23 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hello fellow cp'ers, I have a question that is a little off topic, but I hope you will bare with me. To maintain a specimen of a particular plant in a collection, what is the optimum number of examples? Or asked another way: Is it reasonable for an institution to say, we will only keep one pot of each specimen and that will be fine? On or off list answers are fine with me. Anyone who tries to keep special plants in "permanent collections" is free to answer. Please tell me in your answer if you are answering from the perspective of a commercial, individual devoted hobbyist or institutional, (educational i.e. university, etc) setting. I am just trolling for opinions. Thanks in advance for your time. Carol. ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jan 7 07:44:55 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:08:20 +0100 Subject: Re: Hybrids and species Dear Ivan, Hideka has already answered most of your statements (appropriately). I will just add a few examples to feed your imagination. > Firstly, you must realize that allopolyploids are by convention > accepted as species, as in the case with D. anglica. There is no such convention whatsoever. It is just an unacceptable oversimplification. *Some* allopolyploids are commonly *considered* species (e.g. those *that are chorologically or otherwise independent from their parent species). Formally (from a nomenclatural point of view), there is actually no difference between hybrids and species, a fact that is also reflected in the naming convention (ICBN Art.H.10.2.: "Taxa previously published as species or infraspecific taxa which are later considered to be nothotaxa may be indicated as such, without change of rank, in conformity with Art. 3 and 4 and by the application of Art. 50 - which also operates in the reverse direction"; Art.50.1.: "When a taxon at the rank of species or below is transferred from the non-hybrid category to the hybrid category of the same rank (Art. H.10.2), or vice versa, the author citation remains unchanged but may be followed by an indication in parentheses of the original category."). Many of the plants we consider species now (irrespective of their ploidy or breeding behaviour) are probably of hybrid origin. _D. anglica_ is just one well-studied example. If the range of _D. tokaiensis_ will expand to territories not inhabited by the parent species (which would be difficult at the moment but very well possible in the future), it may "become" a species (i.e. a larger number of taxonomists will begin to *consider* it a species rather than a hybrid). > Secondly, another reason for > distinction is that D. tokaiensis is a hexaploid and so cannot interbreed > with tetraploid D. spatulata. Nice, but it does not prove a thing. _D. obovata_ cannot interbreed with anything. Still it is a hybrid and nothing else but a hybrid. > The offspring would be sterile pentaploids. It's simple, 3 + 2 = 5. How about back-crosses with the other, diploid parent _D. rotundifolia_? I guess I know why you missed it out: 3 + 1 = 4. > Odd ploidys are always sterile. So what? Apart from the exceptions mentioned by Hideka, _Utricularia bremii_, _U. australis_ & _U. ochroleuca_ are frequently sterile (malformed pollen although they usually have even ploidies), and still they are perfectly distinct species. > This is another example of the mathematical exactness I like, and you > must learn. Taxonomy is *more than* mathematics, genetics, morphology, chorology, ecology, etc. It just uses these disciplines, it cannot be absorbed or replaced by any of them. Taxonomy is not always an exact science (because it is not exclusively based on numerical calculations), but it is nevertheless a science (because it yields testable hypotheses), irrespective of what you like or not. > Yes, there are errors. Yes, there are errors. I have made several ones myself. > Here is a big one I'm sure a lot of you have > noticed. There is a conflict between the principle of introgressive > hybridization and a current rule of nomenclature. The rule is simply > wrong. The rule states that a hybrid, no matter how many times it is > backcrossed to one of the parents, can never again be labeled as that > parent species, but instead must always remain a hybrid. The rule actually says that a hybrid name must remain the same if the parent species involved are the same. ICBN Art.H.4.1.: "When all the parent taxa can be postulated or are known, a nothotaxon is circumscribed so as to include all individuals (as far as they can be recognized) derived from the crossing of representatives of the stated parent taxa (i.e. not only the Fl but subsequent filial generations and also back-crosses and combinations of these). There can thus be only one correct name corresponding to a particular hybrid formula; this is the earliest legitimate name (see Art. 6.3) in the appropriate rank (Art. H.5), and other names to which the same hybrid formula applies are synonyms of it." Hybrids in the sense of the ICBN are regarded as recognizable (note the phrase "as far as they can be recognized"!) sexual offspring of at least two different taxa, i.e. from a determinative point of view, which is usually the taxonomist's perspective; in vivo organisms do not have name tags or pedigrees. Only a tiny fraction of herbarium specimens comes from labs in which repeated hybridizations with defined parent clones have been performed. Thus, natural introgression is usually a process that is much more inferred from circumstantial evidence (e.g. from chromosome analysis) than actually observed. > Here is an > example you will be familiar with: An expert knows that Sarracenia flava > varieties have gained their polymorphism through introgression. In scientific slang, "an expert knows..." (or "it is generally agreed...") is synonymous with "I do not have any evidence...", and this phrase should be avoided. Rather mention the facts that make experts (and laypersons alike) think that things are the way you described. > These S. flava varieties are correctly labeled so, yet an expert knows they > are of hybrid origin. I am not sure Don Schnell would agree here (I am, however, sure he is an expert). He writes (CPN 27:117, 1998): "Macfarlane recognized six varieties of _S. flava_, four of which (...), in my opinion stand today. The other two (sic!) are likely hybrids. (...) I reduced the seeming spectrum of variation (...) to five genetic variants and concluded that all the others (sic!) were hybrids of these to varying degree. (...) I have come to recognize two additional basic varieties on the Gulf Coast to report here. (...p.120) I recognize seven varieties of _S. flava_ worthy of naming, the remaining (sic!) color and vein presentations of a seeming spectrum in some locations being varietal hybrids or backcrosses, or ecophenes." Introgression is (indirectly) discussed as a mechanism that accounts for transitions *between* the varieties, not for the origin of the ("basic") varieties themselves. > According to the the rule of nomenclature, the plants must be labeled > S. flava hybrids. Only if the author *considers* them to be hybrids (see ICBN articles cited above). In the case mentioned, the author clearly decided otherwise. q.e.d. (taxonomically) Kind regards Jan ################### From: h7n@hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 07:46:47 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:46:44 Subject: CPN in the UK Has anyone in the UK received the latest CPN, or is it just me who's reading the postings and drooling with anticipation? (I suggest you e-mail me privately on this). NigelH Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Mon Jan 7 07:59:17 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:59:27 -0500 Subject: cp books at Amazon Pitcher Plants : Slippery Pits of No Escape (Bloodthirsty Plants) by Victor Gentle Butterworts : Greasy Cups of Death (Bloodthirsty Plants) by Victor Gentle ...while searching the new title Gardening With Carnivores Sarracenia Pitcher Plants In Cultivation & In The Wild By Nick Romanowski these 2 gems appeared for young children. This will put the kids on the right track about carnivorous plants. ~ Mike St. Petersburg Fl ################### From: philmann@geo.net.au Mon Jan 7 08:26:54 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 00:23:14 +0800 Subject: Utricularia cultures Hi I'm looking for someone who is working with Utricularia in culture. I have a few vials of two species collect from Borneo last year. They are most likely common species. Only those working with cultures please as there is only one set to give away. Please e-mail me privately. Cheers Phill www.scarnivores.com www.cephalotus.net philmann@geo.net.au ################### From: prometheus4242@hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 09:03:13 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:03:12 -0500 Subject: Utricularia menziesii Hey all, Is there anyone out there growing Utricularia menziesii who would be willing to share their cultivation techniques? Media, length of dormancy, dormancy conditions (damp vs. bone-dry,) temp, etc? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Travis Wyman Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Mon Jan 7 09:45:32 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:45:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Trichoderma and Cephalotus At 4:19 AM -0800 1/7/02, Douglas Bertelsen wrote: >Kit, > I've had successful attempts at growing cuttings in the parent pot on >several occasions. Hmmm... Thanks for letting me know that, now I can't find where I read that cuttings wouldn't grow in close proximity to the parent. Anybody else have experience here? -Kit >Doug > >> >> Can you grow leaf cuttings of Cephalotus in the same pot? I was under >> the impression that they would always fail due to proximity to the >> parent. >> -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Mon Jan 7 09:48:38 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:47:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sarracenia cultivars Hey Folks, Mike in St. Petersburg FL has a number of most excellent points. Most particularly, I think that (with a very few exceptions), I never met a Sarracenia I didn't like, but I agree with Mike that they should not all be registered as cultivars. I think that a cultivar name IS NOT a something you should think of as a way of recognizing a superior plant. This is an important enough concept that it bears repeating. CULTIVAR NAME ESTABLISHMENT IS NOT THE SAME THING AS RECOGNIZING SOME PLANT AS BEING SUPERIOR! Unfortunately, I think some people are making this mistake. Rather, cultivar names are names that are given to plants that are (or will be) widely distributed in cultivation, and for which a unique identifier would be useful. If I happened to have the most spectacular Sarracenia in existence, but which I did not intend to distribute to either privately or (especially) commercially to a large number of other growers, it would be counterproductive and very silly to give it a cultivar name. I also agree with Mike that growers without a lot of experience often see plants in their small collections as being better than they really are, as compared to the big picture of plants out there. I've seen Sarracenia leucophylla in the wild which far outshine any of the plants I've seen in cultivation. There is nothing like a field trip to Sarracenia country to make the plants in your collection seem drab and somehow anemic! (Note I am not the ICPS cultivar registrar, and my opinions are not necessarily official ICPS dogma!) Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Mon Jan 7 09:54:48 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:54:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Utricularia 'Asenath Waite' Hey Steve, In the past I've sold bundled groups of Utricularia cultivars to folks. If there is much interest, I may do this again this summer. I'm not sure how many people are interested in the plants, but I'll try to get some plants together. Privately selling plants has become less interesting to me over time, and as my oh-so-patient trading partners know, it it hard for me to find CP time that is not gobbled up by CPN and the ICPS. We sell these cultivars each year at the UCDavis plant sale---there may be folks with this plant out there who are willing to trade some specimens. Barry >Hello Barry, >I remember when you offered this cultivar and a few other Utricularia to >the list a while ago, but I was not able to take you up on the offer at >the time. I thought the list would like to know ( I would) if you should >be contacted personally, or if you have a supplier(s) that you could >suggest we obtain a small amount of this cultivar from? I have found this >species to be very beautiful and easy to grow, but I now have less than >perfect conditions and my two forms rarely flower. Take care, Steve >Stewart ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: h7n@hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 10:23:10 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 18:23:09 Subject: Re: how many is enough of each one? The National Council for the Conservation of Plants and Gardens, which runs the UK's National Collection scheme, simplistically 'recommends' a minimum of 3 plants of each taxon. They don't seem to have considered dioecious plants, where common sense suggests you should double that to include at least 3 males and 3 females. For my own particular specialisation, pygmy sundews, I aim (often unsuccessfully) for at least 3 colonies of at least 10 plants of each taxon. Even that ignores the complexities of things like Drosera mannii, where I understand plants of different clones are required to achieve pollination. NigelH > >Hello fellow cp'ers, > > I have a question that is a little off topic, but I hope you will >bare > >with me. To maintain a specimen of a particular plant in a collection, > >what is the optimum number of examples? Or asked another way: Is it > >reasonable for an institution to say, we will only keep one pot of each > >specimen and that will be fine? On or off list answers are fine with > >me. Anyone who tries to keep special plants in "permanent collections" >is > >free to answer. Please tell me in your answer if you are answering from > >the perspective of a commercial, individual devoted hobbyist or > >institutional, (educational i.e. university, etc) setting. I am just > >trolling for opinions. Thanks in advance for your time. > > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Mon Jan 7 10:23:21 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:19:56 -0800 Subject: More from Pandora's box Hi Jan and all, In all your writings you say that your D. hartmeyerorum spec. nov. differs from ordinary red D. indica in two respects, the ascending orientation of the flower stalks, and the moriform organs. Did you not examine herbarium material of the red form of D. indica? Have a look at the cover of CPN June 1997. The photo of this red D. indica clearly has ascending scapes. -Ivan http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Mon Jan 7 10:23:24 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:09:33 -0800 Subject: Help with cultivar name Hi all, I am working on developing a new sundew cultivar and have made a Paddle-leaf Sundew (Drosera x obovata) which has no dormancy. I would like your help in giving this plant a cultivar name. I have come up with two names, 'Ivan's Paddle' or maybe 'Venus' Paddle'. Although I do like these names, a friend told me the word paddle might be misinterpreted. What do these names bring to mind? Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Mon Jan 7 10:58:18 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:58:10 EST Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name Ivan, Yes, there is a lot of sick people out there(me included) who might think you are naming a S & M implement or something, lol. You could substitute "paddle" for the word "oar" and make a play of that, ie 'Viking's Oar'. Does that fuel any ideas? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Mon Jan 7 11:34:35 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:29:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name Or just simply "Ivan's Oar". It's personal and doesn't sound commercial like "Snyder's Oar". Have a good one! Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:05 PM > > Ivan, > > Yes, there is a lot of sick people out there(me included) who might think you are naming a S & M implement or something, lol. You could substitute "paddle" for the word "oar" and make a play of that, ie 'Viking's Oar'. Does that fuel any ideas? > > Regards, > > Joe Griffin > Lincoln, NE USA > ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Mon Jan 7 11:48:43 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 14:48:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Speaking of Sarracenia hybrids... Hi Everyone-- The seeds I offered are all spoken for. Thanks for giving them a home. Gary Kong -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Mon Jan 7 13:09:44 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:09:33 EST Subject: Re: Hybrids and species Ivan writes: > Here is an example you will be familiar with: An expert knows that Sarracenia flava > varieties have gained their polymorphism through introgression. What?!?! You're talking about S. FLAVA? I absolutely do NOT believe that. Although I am not saying I am an expert, I can tell you that wild S. flava plants have color forms in their "genes." Now, many eons ago, Sarracenia plants may have introgressed, stabilized, and became what's known to us today as the typical form of S. flava. But S. flava plants do not need to see any further introgression to create many of the forms we have today. It's controlled purely by genetics (and maybe influenced by environmental conditions). Just because you see a heavily veined form of flava in the wild does not mean in was created due to any recent introgression. The offspring of two typical flavas can create different color forms due simply to genetics. The typical form of flava (red blotch in the throat area) is the dominant form, and if you cross two typical flava forms then the majority of the offspring are likely to be the typical form. But there is a chance that some will be all green, some may have reduced blotches in the throat, some may have any degree of veining, some may be copper topped, some may be a dark maroon color, and some may be any combination of these. So the current genetic makeup of S. flava controls this and it doesnt need any additional help. In the wild, you will likely see a majority of the typical S. flava. But mixed in every now and then, there will be some color forms. Every once in a while, you might come across a stand in which a majority of the plants are all red pitchers, all green, copper topped, or heavily veined. Whether or not S. flava originated from introgression eons ago doesn't matter. What does matter is that the current recognized S. flava can reproduce color forms on its own. Now, you could be getting confused by some forms of flava floating around in cultivation that were created by man, in which hybrids and back crosses were made. But in the wild, S. flava doesnt need any other Sarracenia around to create color forms of itself. As far as discerning which plants are species, subspecies ,etc. well, that is a science in futility. Linnaeus gave us a great system. It's not a perfect system, but there may not be a perfect system. After all, a plant does not care that it is an octaploid, with some count of 5+2=17, and an enzyme which which can cure cancer. It is only trying to survive in the wild. Plants will never fit into any org chart created by man in a perfect way. Instead, we have people who dedicate a significant part of their lives studying a genus of plants, and then we rely upon them to come to some sort of logical conclusion and to sort everything out for us. As far as Sarracenia is concerned, well, I am awaiting for Don Schnell's book to arrive from Amazon.com. I have always relied upon his Sarracenia org charts. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Mon Jan 7 14:07:14 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:07:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name I vote for Ivan's sticky club ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 2:43 PM > > Or just simply "Ivan's Oar". It's personal and doesn't sound commercial like > "Snyder's Oar". > Have a good one! > Tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:05 PM > Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name > > > > > > Ivan, > > > > Yes, there is a lot of sick people out there(me included) who might > think you are naming a S & M implement or something, lol. You could > substitute "paddle" for the word "oar" and make a play of that, ie 'Viking's > Oar'. Does that fuel any ideas? > > > > Regards, > > > > Joe Griffin > > Lincoln, NE USA > > > ################### From: Miguel.deSalas@utas.edu.au Mon Jan 7 14:36:21 2002 Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 09:38:04 +1100 Subject: Re: Paranoia with watering my nepenthes Ben, I have my neps potted in live sphagnum moss. I water them so that the sphagnum is saturated. As it takes many times its weight in water, the pot becomes quite heavy. I then wait until the pot gets quite light (but definetly nowhere near dry) to water it again. This takes longer in winter than in summer, as the temperature is lower and the humidity higher. Of course this only works in a glasshouse or room without central heating. Cheers! Miguel de Salas Ph: 03 6226 2624 Fax: 03 62262693 School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: bachelormt@iprimus.com.au Mon Jan 7 15:13:40 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:12:39 +1100 Subject: RE: : Trichoderma and Cephalotus It has been my observation that damaged leaves are quickly digested, while fully intact ones have quickly established themselves. I have just checked leaf cuttings taken in October, and while several leaves are rotting others have produced plantlets that are not much smaller than some of the plants I have grown from cuttings I took in November of the previous year. It seems that if you want plants in a hurry, make shore that the bases of the leaves are not damaged. I have previously found that damaged leaves fail to produce healthy plants anyway. They may start to grow but they eventually rot. So far, Trichoderma appears to speed up the process. The good leaves produce plantlets faster and the others die faster, but I will see what happens as the progress. Regards Mark T. Bachelor With all of the excitement of trichoderma, I purchased some and applied to a pot of Cephalotus. No big difference yet (only been about 3 weeks), but I noticed that the leaf cuttings in the same pot began to decompose rapidly. I'd suggest thoroughly washing cuttings and placing them in non-treated soils. Doug ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Mon Jan 7 15:21:54 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 18:21:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Speaking of Sarrcenia hybrids... Hi Everyone-- I forgot who I notified by reply and who I didn't. So here's a who's who of who got what: Chuck Rossi -- S. flava "Coppertop" Kit Halsted -- S. leucophylla x flava "Maxima" John Green -- S. leucophylla x purpurea venosa Gene Viola -- S. leucophylla x flava "Maxima" Weston Bielby -- S. leucophylla x purpurea venosa Tom Stubblefield -- [S. leucophylla x flava "Maxima"] x leucophylla I'm especially curious to see if the [S. leucophylla x flava "Maxima"] x leucophylla cross forms phyllodia like its S. leucophylla x flava "Maxima" parent or if it doesn't, like its S. leucophylla parent. Good luck to everyone. Thanks for taking them off my hands! Gary Kong -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 7 15:26:55 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:25:12 +0000 Subject: Re: CPN in the UK In message , nigel hurneyman writes > >Has anyone in the UK received the latest CPN, or is it just me who's reading >the postings and drooling with anticipation? > I haven't had mine yet either. -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Mon Jan 7 16:04:33 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:04:23 -0600 Subject: Re: : Trichoderma and Cephalotus Mark, These have also been my observations since I started using RootShield 2 months ago. One of the big advantages that I've enjoyed is no mold. The gemmae have grown with no percievable loss in numbers. I do sterilize seed before I plant it but I've used no fungicide since I purchased this remarkable (to me) stuff. My sphagnum moss is growing and my red dragon vft is putting out the aerial traps now after carpetting the area around it with ground traps. The hairs (cilia?) on the traps look like exaggerated red false eyelashes. The only downside, but not with the product itself, is that it costs me ~$20 to buy a 4 oz. jar of RootShield with shipping. Would love to find a place that sells it for less. Just my nickel's worth... Tom ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Mon Jan 7 16:14:21 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:14:14 -0600 Subject: Re: Speaking of Sarrcenia hybrids... > I'm especially curious to see if the [S. leucophylla x >flava "Maxima"] x leucophylla cross forms phyllodia like >its S. leucophylla x flava "Maxima" parent or if it >doesn't, like its S. leucophylla parent. Gary, if you aren't growing these yourself, I'll let you know. >Thanks for taking them off my hands! Thanks for the fantastic addition to my bog! Tom ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Mon Jan 7 17:20:46 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:43:04 -0600 Subject: Re: Paranoia with watering my nepenthes What causes yellow leaves? One of the new Nepenthes lost some leaves, and now the older plant has some yellowing. Wayne ################### From: dpevans@rci.rutgers.edu Mon Jan 7 17:36:16 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:32:15 -0500 Subject: Re: CUT OFF the flowerstalks after Sarracenia division? Dear Rogier, I would remove the flowers as soon as they start to ascend. If you wait until opening to remove the flower, the plant will have ended up spending a fair amount on the flower by this point. If the flower is removed right away, the plant will have more of a chance to divert the resources to the production of leaves. Most _Sarracenia_ tend to produce less robust flushes of pitchers during the spring, some of this could be the result of flowering. I have noticed that plants which are too young to flower produce much more robust pitchers than their mature counterparts who are producing flowers and then pitchers. Dave Evans ----- Original Message ----- > Some people advice to cut new emerging flower stalks from just divided > Sarracenia's, to let not exhaust the recovering plant to much. Some > people > don't mind it. Last year I didn't cut off the flower stalks, but I am > considering to cut off the half this year. But before I loose a lot of > those > beautiful flowers, what are your experiences with this? ################### From: dmerritt@blackduck.net Mon Jan 7 18:20:15 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:24:36 -0600 Subject: collections Hi Carol, If it helps any, I maintain the collection for the university I attend. I try to keep 2 of any plant I definitely want in the collection and 3 (or more depending on demand) of any plants that are used in classes or labs, and trays of the plants that will be used up in the labs. I keep one of the things that are kept just to show a trait, if it does not matter what plant shows the trait. I keep lots of cp because I like them!. Anita [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Mon Jan 7 20:38:58 2002 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 22:38:56 -0600 Subject: Fertile Pentaploid Plants

If you are not interested in this topic, please skip. This will be long.

With saying that, I did a lit. search on this using four databases (Agricola, AGRIS, BIOSIS, and CAB) since I was not quite satisfied with the example I used. I was rather surprised to find many articles on this topic. I selected some (some were redundant--many on wheat, cotton, etc), and copied and pasted parts of abstracts. This does NOT mean ALL pentaploids are fertile., but definately some are. After all, unreduced gametes are nothing new. 

I must confess that I did not find the example I used, but I will try to do so. The whole list of articles on this topic is available upon request (huge, but not complete).

Fruit crops:

Vaccinium (blueberry): "Pentaploids resulting from crossing cultivars of the tetraploid species V. australe with the hexaploid V. ashei 'Tifblue' and 'Woodard' were tested for fertility.....the progenies of 4x X 5x crosses would produce mainly tetraploids" (Jelenkovic et al., 1973).

Plums: "The fertile seedlings mainly had 2n = 48, though some were found in the tetraploid and pentaploid groups" (Turovtseva, 1975).

Actinidia (kiwifruit): "The pentaploid hybrid was intermediate between its parents for most traits, but less vigorous than either. It had poor male but reasonable female fertility" (Pringle, 1986).

Coffea: "The two pentaploids had a pollen fertility of 78 and 80% and a good fruit set" (Lanaud and Zickler, 1980).

Vegetables (in a broad sense):

Potato: "These pentaploid hybrids were vigorous and had uniformly sterile pollen. They were female fertile and were crossed with tetraploid cultivars..." (Adiwilaga and Brown, 1991).

Brassica napus x Orychophragmus violaceus: "A pentaploid hybrid plant (2n = 50, AACCO) between Brassica napus (AACC) and Orychophragmus violaceus (OO) showed matroclinous morphology and some patroclinous characters....The 50 chromosomes were mainly paired as 25 bivalents and segregated as 25: 25 or 22:28; many other segregations were observed in some cells" (Wu et al., 1997).

Brassica: "The majority of the hybrid plants (AABCC) were self fertile with brown seeds" (Jingling et al., 1998).

Beta (sugar beet): "It has been found that pentaploid level, characterized by high recombination possibilities, could be used in developing monogerm tetraploid forms with well regulated meiosis, high pollen fertility and high seed germination percentage" (Zakhariev, 1989).

Agronomic (grain, etc):

Avena (oat): "The pentaploid self-sterile hybrids obtained were backcrossed to A. sativa" (Premachandran et al., 1988).

Triticum (wheat): "The pentaploid with A. squarrosa cytoplasm did not transmit 14-chromosome male gametes" (Tsuji and Maan, 1981).

Gossypium (cotton): "Selfing a pentaploid from G. hirsutum x G. stocksii or back crossing it to G. hirsutum resulted in plants with chromosome numbers ranging from...." (Schwendiman, 1978).

Others:

Alopecurus (grass) :"one pentaploid plant, probably arising through a fusion of an unreduced F1 gamete and a normal pratensis gamete, was highly fertile" (Niseen, 1949).

Agropyron repens X Agropyron spicatum (quackgrass) : "Pentaploid hybrids (2n = 35) of A. repens (2n = 42) x A. spicatum (2n = 28) were intercrossed, back crossed to both parent species...." (Dewey, 1976).

 



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################### From: dcbertelsen@peoplepc.com Mon Jan 7 23:38:21 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 19:34:03 -0600 Subject: Re: : Trichoderma and Cephalotus Upon further digging around, I found that the most decomposed leaf was completely gone to the base, with no signs of new growth. The second, which was mostly yellow with a bit of brown at the leaf tip doesn't look too promising, but the third which still has some green on it, shows good signs of a rhizome and there is also a small root starting, but I'm a bit skeptical as to whether it will make it or not, as the decomposition seems fairly advanced. Doug ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Tue Jan 8 00:41:31 2002 Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:05:09 +0100 Subject: Re: More from Pandora's box Dear Ivan, > Did you not examine herbarium material of the red form of D. indica? I have examined various forms of _D. indica_, including red ones. > Have a look at > the cover of CPN June 1997. The photo of this red D. indica clearly has > ascending scapes. Been there, seen it, done it. Have a look at my paper: "Similar plants have been depicted in the literature (e.g. by Mann, 1997)" The picture unfortunately does not have sufficient resolution to decide whether there are non-glandular emergences at the leaf base or not. If they are present, it is not a red _D. indica_ but an ordinary _D. hartmeyerorum_. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Susan.Farrington@mobot.org Tue Jan 8 05:06:17 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:11:51 -0600 Subject: RE: Paranoia with watering my nepenthes Ben, No one can tell you exactly how much to water your plant or how often... circumstances vary for every place and every plant. However, here are some tips to help you. First, is your plant in a pot that has drainage holes? If so, you should always take it to the sink or put it over a bucket and water it thoroughly until water comes dripping out of the bottom. When it has stopped dripping, put it back on its dry saucer. By doing this, you will ensure that you get your plant thoroughly wet, but you don't leave it sitting in excess water to rot. If your plant is NOT in a drainable pot (e.g. planted directly in a terrarium), watering becomes far trickier. If it's in a pot that doesn't drain, you may be able to water it, wait a few minutes, then tip it gently over a sink to get the excess out. Now, as to how often your plant needs to be watered... that is very hard for us to tell you. There are MANY factors that influence how often a plant needs water, and it's impossible for us to guess... it could be every day or two or every week or two! The fact that you lost a couple of pitchers COULD mean your plant went too dry or stayed too wet, but I think it's far more likely that the air was too dry. Do you have your plant in a terrarium or in some sort of enclosure that will increase its humidity? If so, that keeps the plant from drying out so quickly. All I can tell you about how often to water is to try to use the moss to give you a clue... is it live sphagnum moss? If so, you can tell when the moss starts to dry a bit because it becomes a lighter color. That's definitely a clue to water your plant. In my experience, Nepenthes like to go slightly dry between waterings, but certainly not bone dry. I'm afraid this part is something you just have to learn with experience! Good luck! Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 05:51:47 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 05:51:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Paranoia with watering my nepenthes Thanks Susan. Yes, I do have drainage holes in my pitcher and tried your example. It worked fine. I'll use that when actually watering the plant. As far as when to water it I'll just stick my finger into the soil every day and feel if it's starting to get dry. Or, as another member pointed out, pick it up so that I can feel how heavy the plant is compared to how heavy it was when I first watered it. Both indications should help me out quite a bit. I won't let it get bone dry, I'll just let it get pseudo-moist before I water it again. Thank you and everyone else for your time, ~Ben Susan Farrington wrote: Ben, No one can tell you exactly how much to water your plant or how often... circumstances vary for every place and every plant. However, here are some tips to help you. First, is your plant in a pot that has drainage holes? If so, you should always take it to the sink or put it over a bucket and water it thoroughly until water comes dripping out of the bottom. When it has stopped dripping, put it back on its dry saucer. By doing this, you will ensure that you get your plant thoroughly wet, but you don't leave it sitting in excess water to rot. If your plant is NOT in a drainable pot (e.g. planted directly in a terrarium), watering becomes far trickier. If it's in a pot that doesn't drain, you may be able to water it, wait a few minutes, then tip it gently over a sink to get the excess out. Now, as to how often your plant needs to be watered... that is very hard for us to tell you. There are MANY factors that influence how often a plant needs water, and it's impossible for us to guess... it could be every day or two or every week or two! The fact that you lost a couple of pitchers COULD mean your plant went too dry or stayed too wet, but I think it's far more likely that the air was too dry. Do you have your plant in a terrarium or in some sort of enclosure that will increase its humidity? If so, that keeps the plant from drying out so quickly. All I can tell you about how often to water is to try to use the moss to give you a clue... is it live sphagnum moss? If so, you can tell when the moss starts to dry a bit because it becomes a lighter color. That's definitely a clue to water your plant. In my experience, Nepenthes like to go slightly dry between waterings, but certainly not bone dry. I'm afraid this part is something you just have to learn with experience! Good luck! Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: bllorber@wcvt.com Tue Jan 8 05:59:32 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:58:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Utricularia 'Asenath Waite' Hi Barry: I would be very interested in anything Utric. that I could add to my collection through your generosity. Of course, I would be glad to pay for them, postage, etc.. Thanks and best wishes for a happy, healthy new year Bryan Charlotte, Vermont U.S.A. ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:07 PM > > > Hey Steve, > > In the past I've sold bundled groups of Utricularia cultivars to folks. If > there is much interest, I may do this again this summer. I'm not sure how > many people are interested in the plants, but I'll try to get some plants > together. Privately selling plants has become less interesting to me over > time, and as my oh-so-patient trading partners know, it it hard for me to > find CP time that is not gobbled up by CPN and the ICPS. > > We sell these cultivars each year at the UCDavis plant sale---there may be > folks with this plant out there who are willing to trade some specimens. > > Barry > > >Hello Barry, > > >I remember when you offered this cultivar and a few other Utricularia to > >the list a while ago, but I was not able to take you up on the offer at > >the time. I thought the list would like to know ( I would) if you should > >be contacted personally, or if you have a supplier(s) that you could > >suggest we obtain a small amount of this cultivar from? I have found this > >species to be very beautiful and easy to grow, but I now have less than > >perfect conditions and my two forms rarely flower. Take care, Steve > >Stewart > > ------------------------ > Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. > Carnivorous Plant Newsletter > Conservation Coeditor > barry@carnivorousplants.org > http://www.carnivorousplants.org > ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Tue Jan 8 07:05:32 2002 Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 10:05:20 EST Subject: RE: Paranoia with watering my nepenthes Ben, I know you have had this one N. gracilis for some time and it really pleases me(and others, I am sure) to see such attention to detail for this one plant. If you are willing to test the weight of the pot or the wetness of the soil, that is fine. However, depending on what compost you used, watering every other day to twice a week should be sufficient for N. gracilis. If you used straight LF sphagnum, you could probably get away with watering once a week, unless it was a huge plant. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 07:34:37 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:34:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Paranoia with watering my nepenthes Joe, Thanks for the response and hello again! The plant has dead spongy spaghnum moss along the top of it's pot and dried cut up spagnum/peat moss within side the pot (as well as some sandy gravel). I got it that way and haven't touched the compost at all (that is, haven't changed the mixture or done anything with it). It appears to hold onto water quite well as I water the plant and watch a bit of water drip out the bottom but much, much less than what I put in. If the plant is a gracilis, as I think it is, then I will water it every other day and check it every day to make sure that it is not drying out or getting water logged. In either case I will take appropriate actions. I'll also feel the weight of the plant. I'll just be careful with the amount of water I put in and just watch it very carefully. I spritz it and it's tank quite often to keep the humidity levels up (I have the terrarium lid 1/3 open, so, I get air circulation). Thanks for your response. It's just that I'm very fond of this plant and want to see it healthy and happy like it is now, it's such a joy to watch it grow from a small little thing into this rather large plant. That outgrew a ten gallon in about three months. One more question for whomever on the serve, what should I do in case of root rot? Are there any "chemicals" I can add to the plant to prevent such a thing from happening? Thanks, Ben Killerplants@aol.com wrote: Ben, I know you have had this one N. gracilis for some time and it really pleases me(and others, I am sure) to see such attention to detail for this one plant. If you are willing to test the weight of the pot or the wetness of the soil, that is fine. However, depending on what compost you used, watering every other day to twice a week should be sufficient for N. gracilis. If you used straight LF sphagnum, you could probably get away with watering once a week, unless it was a huge plant. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Tue Jan 8 08:32:10 2002 Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 11:31:54 EST Subject: RE: root rot Ben, When people warn about root rot for Nepenthes, they are almost always telling you not to sit the pot in water. Otherwise, the roots may stay constantly wet and then rot. That is why most books and growers recommend an open compost for growing Nepenthes in general(bark,perlite,charcoal,clay pearls,ect mixed in with some peat or LF sphagnum)to allow the water to drain freely. This should prevent root rot. N. gracilis is a more forgiving plant than most. I AM NOT SUGGESTING THIS, SO DON'T EVERYONE JUMP ON ME,BUT I would not be suprised if you set it in a saucer and kept a thin layer of water in there most of the time and it did fine. Don't do this to your only prize plant. I am just citing how tough the plant is. It is very opportunistic in nature. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Tue Jan 8 11:33:52 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:33:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: root rot Thank you very much for the info. I believe that I should be fine then. When you say LF, what do you mean? What are you abbreviating on LF Spaghnum? Killerplants@aol.com wrote: Ben, When people warn about root rot for Nepenthes, they are almost always telling you not to sit the pot in water. Otherwise, the roots may stay constantly wet and then rot. That is why most books and growers recommend an open compost for growing Nepenthes in general(bark,perlite,charcoal,clay pearls,ect mixed in with some peat or LF sphagnum)to allow the water to drain freely. This should prevent root rot. N. gracilis is a more forgiving plant than most. I AM NOT SUGGESTING THIS, SO DON'T EVERYONE JUMP ON ME,BUT I would not be suprised if you set it in a saucer and kept a thin layer of water in there most of the time and it did fine. Don't do this to your only prize plant. I am just citing how tough the plant is. It is very opportunistic in nature. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: wouter@fibre.a2000.nl Tue Jan 8 11:38:57 2002 Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 20:34:25 +0100 Subject: Exhibition and the 3rd European meeting at Leiden, Holland Hi CP-lovers, First of all best wishes for 2002! Secondly, I will invite everyone to visit our CP-exhibition at the botanical garden at Leiden. The opening will be at Friday 23th of August. Sunday 1st of September is the last day. The dutch CP-society Carnivora is orginising the exhibition and there will be wonderfull Nepenthes-plants and Sarracenia's. There will be a sale also. Saturday 24th of August the 3rd European meeting will take place at the botanical garden of Leiden in Holland. After the succes of Bonn (sept.2000) and Gent (sept.2001) it's our turn to orginise the meeting. We are looking for Cp'rs who want to sale their plants at the 3rd European meeting, not only commercial growers but also amateur-growers. There is plenty of space, so bring as many plants as you like. Within a few weeks there will be more details about these 2 shows! For more info, look on our website; Carnivora22.netmenu.nl And click on the button News and Events. Take care, Wouter Noordeloos ################### From: elkmad@pgtv.net Tue Jan 8 13:15:44 2002 Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 22:47:27 -0800 Subject: Re-paranoia with watering nepenthes Ben, I dont think that watering nepenthes should be this complicated.Mother Nature is the best grower of these plants, and I dont think she measures water in milliliters,before giving these plants a good soaking. I know from growing these plants that they grow in sometimes very extreme conditions (especially when I grow them :) ). When you do water,make sure that you water all the way through...feel the weight of the pot after watering. After a few days feel to see if it is lighter,if it is, water through again. I hope this helps and remember to Relaxxxx. Donnie [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: venusflytrap@bushinternet.com Tue Jan 8 14:38:38 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 22:31:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: No sign of CPN either I still have not received the latest CPN in the UK either. I thought that I had been struck off by encouraging a discussion on the Tokyo red-light district, and bringing the world of carnivorous plants into disrepute. Regards David Ahrens London ################### From: corusc8@hotmail.com Tue Jan 8 14:51:50 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:54:01 -0800 Subject: termites and N. albomarginata Hey folks, Science Literature news: "Mass march of termites into the deadly trap" An article about their research (Merbach, Merbach, Maschwitz, Booth, Giala, & Zizka) on Nepenthes albomarginata in Brunei revealed termites being a major source of food/nutrients. The article centers around prey specialization and using rim trichomes as bait. Its in Nature, VOL 415, January, 3, 2002.pp. 36 & 37, or http://www.nature.com/nsu/020101/020101-4.html. Hurray, the days (in the Northern Hemisphere) are getting longer! Happy growing. Joseph Kinyon [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: neps@plantswithattitude.com Tue Jan 8 15:05:10 2002 Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:09:10 -0700 Subject: Female N. Campanulata in Flower Hi Fellow List Members, My female N. campanulata is in flower again, and I'm therefore seeking pollen from a male campanulata. If you've some available, please contact me privately. Thanks! Jeff Shafer ################### From: joe@jmmsoftware.com Tue Jan 8 15:06:11 2002 Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:05:52 -0800 Subject: Ants in Nepenthes pot / Repotting Nepenthes I have a Nepenthes khasiana on a windowsill in my house. Recently I started noticing a lot of ants frequenting it, and the numbers have been steadily growing. The Nepenthes has been gorging itself on ants, and I've also been manually feeding them to my windowsill sundews and pings. These are the common small black ants, common in urban northern California. Today, when I watered the plant, TONS of ants started pouring out of the soil. I saw three larger ants (probably 3x as large as the others). I don't know if they are queens or males, or what. So, it looks like they're nexting in the pot. I immediately killed 2 of them and fed the third to a sundew. Very satisfying :). Anyway, I don't like the idea of ants breeding inside my house, so I'd like to get rid of them if possible. I guess I could put out poison, but I was also thinking of repotting the plant. Right now, it's still it's original 4" plastic pot that I bought it in a year and a half ago from California Carnivores (when it still was a small ground rosette). It's currently producing 4.5" pitchers, so I don't know how old that makes the plant. It's in a relatively fine peat-based mix with some small perlite and lava rock, and I was thinking that the ants might not nest in a coarser mix. Questions: 1) Do the ants do any harm to the plants by living in the pots? 2) Do you think repotting in a coarser mix would prevent ants from nesting there? 3) Does it sound like it's time to repot the plant anyway? 4) Any tips on repotting a Nepenthes? Should I wash away the soil, or transplant the whole root ball? Thanks, Joe Martinez ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Tue Jan 8 15:40:37 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 18:40:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Ants in Nepenthes pot / Repotting Nepenthes How about placing the pot in a bucket of water for a half/ full day and flood/drown the ants out?. And maybe repeat the process in a week? It won't hurt the N. khasiana for that amount of time. N. khasiana can take a lot of water. It is ready for a larger pot, I would get it out of a 4" pot. I still may flood the pot as I describe as the ants can hang on in places you won't find them and shortly you could have a ant problem again in the new pot, regardless of mix. Ants are always a potential pest to plants, even if not directly eating the plant. The farm scale and aphids and will bring them right on to your Nepenthes and heard them like cattle on soft new growth, or tucked away where they are hard to spot. Ditch the ants. The flooding idea above works well for me with Nepenthes. I also repot and wash the cling-on media and roots if ants are found. Ants don't give up easy, and true another media might keep them down, it may not too. Outside of pesticide you have to remove the media from the roots or more likely than not the ants will make a return. >From a very Chilly Florida, Mike ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Tue Jan 8 16:05:32 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 16:05:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: TC in CPN Hey Folks, So I'd like to hear from someone who is willing to put their keyboard where their mouth is, so to speak. I'd REALLY like to meet an experienced CP TCer (carnivorous plant tissue culture person) who could write a few articles on TC for CP. I envision two articles. The first would be to describe the basics of TC, especially TC on the cheap since most of us don't have access to super-expensive facilities. The second might focus on proven formulae effective for CP. Anyone? Anyone? Or will we have another issue of CPN without cultivation information? (ooh, the howls of anguish!). Email me. Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Tue Jan 8 16:32:31 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 16:32:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Largest CP collections Hey Folks, Does anyone here have a collection (or know of a collection) that has more than about 1000 different species, subspecies, varieties, forms, cultivars, or significantly different races of carnivorous plants? I'm trying to find the world's largest (i.e. largest number of taxa) carnivorous plant collection for a certain organization that keeps track of records (hint: think dark beer). Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Tue Jan 8 16:58:51 2002 Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 19:21:39 -0600 Subject: Re: Largest CP collections (hint: think dark beer). > >Barry > OK, tear up my ICPS membership but...Heinekein croaked. Are they trying to hide the body, or what? Er, Fred. ################### From: SatanicDebris@aol.com Tue Jan 8 21:58:57 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 00:58:44 EST Subject: Trichoderma Hi, I should be getting some RootShield trichoderma in the mail any day now, but I was wondering if anyone has had success with using it with CPs other than cephalotus and nepenthes. I have 2 heliamphoras, a few pinguicula, a few droseras (pygmies too) , and a few orchids that I would like to try using trichoderma on, but I also dont want to risk losing anything. Anybody have any success with using trichoderma on any of these plants? -Jon [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Tue Jan 8 22:42:51 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 00:42:33 -0600 Subject: Re: Trichoderma Jon, All of my plants, sundews including pygmy, and a red dragon vft, are doing really well. I'm quite happy. I had some S.minor seeds germinate and are doing very well with only RootShield in the medium. I don't like using fungicides in the house. With trichoderma, I haven't had to. Tom P.S. I did find a small cephalotus for $10! Lost 1 pitcher and 1 leaf after being planted. Watched carefully and no mold. It now has 3 new leaves and tinges of red on the edges of the remaining pitchers. But that's another trichoderma story... ################### From: hsu@tlaloc.sfsu.edu Tue Jan 8 23:01:10 2002 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:01:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: water quality in Hong Kong I'm visiting my parents in Hong Kong at the moment, and got them a nice N. alata. I was wondering if the tap water in Hong Kong is good enough for nepenthes. Any comments from local growers will be appreciated. THanks! Bill ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Tue Jan 8 23:33:00 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 02:31:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Trichoderma At 10:04 PM -0800 1/8/02, SatanicDebris@aol.com wrote: >Hi, I should be getting some RootShield trichoderma in the mail any >day now, but I was wondering if anyone has had success with using it >with CPs other than cephalotus and nepenthes. It seems to have been very helpful with my Sarracenia seedlings. The humidity in my apartment is very low right now, so I keep the seedlings sealed in their containers almost 24 hours a day. Shortly after they sprouted, I noticed that there was some grey fungus growing in a couple of spots in the containers & that it was spreading. I dusted the containers with a small amount of RootShield. Since then, there's been much less fungus & the fungus that's there has been more white than grey. Not exactly a scientific study, but I believe the Trichoderma has made a huge difference with these plants. >I have 2 >heliamphoras, a few pinguicula, a few droseras (pygmies too) , and a >few orchids that I would like to try using trichoderma on, but I >also dont want to risk losing anything. Anybody have any success >with using trichoderma on any of these plants? Others reported success on a variety of plants when I asked about this earlier, & I've used it on several other plants. It may well have helped my D. spatulata, & it certainly didn't hurt 'em. My Nepenthes both seem to be exactly the same as they have been since I put them in the windows, growing incredibly slowly, but they were like that before and after I applied Trichoderma to the soil. My tiny VFT seedlings have a life story similar to the Sarracenia seedlings. I have 2 plants that MAY have had an adverse reaction, BUT Trichoderma is unlikely to be the cause. I have 2 each of similar-sized D. ... dichotoma & D. ... extrema. 1 of each plant lives in a terrarium & 1 of each lives in a hanging pot in the window. I was sloppy about keeping track of which plants were inoculated, so I don't remember if the terrarium plants got any but the window plants definitely did. All of them get about 16 hours a day of fluorescent light. The terrarium is about 50% covered on top by the light fixture, so RH is at a decent level. The window plants are in constantly moist soil, but they're near the radiator so the air around them is bone-dry. The terrarium is in a part of the room where temperatures probably fluctuate gradually between 65 & 85 Fahrenheit, depending on how cold it is outside & how hyperactive the radiator is at the moment. The window plants get slightly more extreme temps & a much less gradual transition between them, being next to both the radiator & the window. The window plants are not doing nearly as well as the terrarium plants, but I don't think that that Trichoderma's got anything to do with it. HTH, -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Wed Jan 9 00:07:42 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 02:07:37 -0600 Subject: Re: Trichoderma I really don't know how trichoderma will affect epiphytic orchids. As for the terrestrials, it should help them. I don't have any orchids as yet but will quite soon. The Everglades Ghost Orchid. What an addition to my carnivorous terrarium! Perhaps someone on this list has tried trichoderma on epiphytics of one genera or another. If not, I'll at the very least be one of the first. I'll post my unscientific findings when I find out. Regards, Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:04 AM > Hi, I should be getting some RootShield trichoderma in the mail any > day now, but I was wondering if anyone has had success with using it > with CPs other than cephalotus and nepenthes. I have 2 > heliamphoras, a few pinguicula, a few droseras (pygmies too) , and a > few orchids that I would like to try using trichoderma on, but I > also dont want to risk losing anything. Anybody have any success > with using trichoderma on any of these plants? -Jon > > [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] > > > ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Wed Jan 9 09:25:12 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:03:02 -0800 Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name >>I am working on developing a new sundew cultivar and have made a Paddle-leaf Sundew (Drosera x obovata) which has no dormancy. I would like your help in giving this plant a cultivar name. I have come up with two names, 'Ivan's Paddle' or maybe 'Venus' Paddle'. Although I do like these names, a friend told me the word paddle might be misinterpreted. What do these names bring to mind? >Yes, there is a lot of sick people out there(me included) who might think you are naming a S & M implement or something, lol. You could substitute "paddle" for the word "oar" and make a play of that, ie 'Viking's Oar'. Does that fuel any ideas? Joe Griffin >D."paddlestar galactica" ? and for your next spoon shaped d x: D."greasy spoon" Sundew Matt >I vote for Ivan's sticky club Mike >Or just simply "Ivan's Oar". It's personal and doesn't sound commercial like "Snyder's Oar". Have a good one! Tom Hi Joe, Tom, Matt, Mike, and all, It's unanimous, everyone think's 'Paddle' is not appropriate. I guess Matt's idea 'Greasy Spoon' might be best since the plant does have rather spoon shaped leaves. But greasy sounds kindof icky. Maybe 'Ivan's Spoon'? Thanks, Ivan http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Wed Jan 9 09:25:13 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:15:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Dindica vs. hartmeyerorum >The picture unfortunately does not have sufficient resolution to decide whether there are non-glandular emergences at the leaf base or not. If they are present, it is not a red _D. indica_ but an ordinary _D. hartmeyerorum_. Kind regards Jan Hi Jan, I can help you with that. I grew this red D. indica with *orange* flower from seed provided by Phil Mann. I did not notice any of those yellow structures. Petiolaris Sean and I just received seed from Alan Lowrie of a D. indica Alan figures is the same as that which Vitor got. I'll keep you posted on what I discover. -Ivan http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 9 09:27:02 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:26:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Trichoderma---huh? Hey Folks, Somehow I've missed the latest innovation that everyone seems to like so much. Can somebody summarize for me just what trichoderma is? Bear in mind that I'd like to take such a nice, clearly written summary and put it in CPN as a news and views item, too. Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 9 09:36:28 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:36:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Biggest collection of CPs Hey folks, On my quest for largest collection of CPs, I have a front runner with the following stature: Counting "species, varieties and forms", about 1000 distinct types of plants. Can anyone top that? B ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: curt.onstott@orst.edu Wed Jan 9 10:02:04 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:00:29 -0800 Subject: Seeds I am looking for some fresh Drosophyllum seeds. I already have a few but they have resisted my attempts to germinate them for several months now. The seed coats were thinned with sandpaper and they were soaked in GA3 as well but no luck. I am also looking for a web site with pictures of various CP seeds-- I believe my D. Binata set seed, but I am not sure. Are their seeds very tiny? ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Wed Jan 9 11:31:58 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:24:32 -0500 Subject: RE: Biggest collection of CPs ITS GOT TO BE PETER D. TELL US WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR FINAL DISSENSION BARRY. -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Barry Meyers-Rice Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:48 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hey folks, On my quest for largest collection of CPs, I have a front runner with the following stature: Counting "species, varieties and forms", about 1000 distinct types of plants. Can anyone top that? B ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Wed Jan 9 11:35:32 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:28:07 -0500 Subject: RE: Biggest collection of CPs I ment decision.... sorry. -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Steve LaWarre Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 2:33 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP ITS GOT TO BE PETER D. TELL US WHEN YOU MAKE YOUR FINAL DISSENSION BARRY. -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Barry Meyers-Rice Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:48 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hey folks, On my quest for largest collection of CPs, I have a front runner with the following stature: Counting "species, varieties and forms", about 1000 distinct types of plants. Can anyone top that? B ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: hybrid_t@hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 12:01:53 2002 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:01:51 Subject: Re: ants, trichoderma Hi everyone, Joe Martinez wrote about ants in his plants: I have these ants invade every winter when they need a dry home. They are a pain!!! Besides various potted plants, they live in the cork bark which some epi. orchids are rooted on. I try to flood them out every week, but they always move back in right away. However, they do go away when the temps outside get warmer. One thing to watch for is that they can dry out the soil very quickly by tunneling in it. I had a paph orchid just about to bloom and the flower stalk wilted and died in about a day because of that. I haven't ever had them bring scale or aphids inside, maybe because it's winter when they invade??? I think the larger ones are queens because I know these ants live in multi-queen colonies. Regarding trichoderma, about 3 weeks ago I applied it to every plant in my collection, epiphytic orchids included. They seem unaffected. I noticed some general reddeding on several sundews and pings about a week after application, has anyone else seen that? I haven't noticed any great benefit though, and my ceph is still going downhill for some reason. I _may_ have fried some ferns with it; they turned crispy within a few days. Not sure if that was the cause. FWIW, Tierney San Jose CA Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Wed Jan 9 12:58:38 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:58:27 -0600 Subject: Re: ants, trichoderma What was the brand of this trichoderma? I have small ferns flourishing in the RootShield treated media in my CP tank. Is your ceph too wet? Low humidity? Not enough light? Are the roots okay? Have you tried mixing trichoderma with water and drenching the whole plant? Can you elaborate on your growing conditions? I'd like to help if I can. Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 2:10 PM > > Hi everyone, > > Joe Martinez wrote about ants in his plants: > I have these ants invade every winter when they need a dry home. They are a > pain!!! Besides various potted plants, they live in the cork bark which some > epi. orchids are rooted on. I try to flood them out every week, but they > always move back in right away. However, they do go away when the temps > outside get warmer. One thing to watch for is that they can dry out the soil > very quickly by tunneling in it. I had a paph orchid just about to bloom and > the flower stalk wilted and died in about a day because of that. I haven't > ever had them bring scale or aphids inside, maybe because it's winter when > they invade??? > I think the larger ones are queens because I know these ants live in > multi-queen colonies. > > Regarding trichoderma, about 3 weeks ago I applied it to every plant in my > collection, epiphytic orchids included. They seem unaffected. I noticed some > general reddeding on several sundews and pings about a week after > application, has anyone else seen that? I haven't noticed any great benefit > though, and my ceph is still going downhill for some reason. I _may_ have > fried some ferns with it; they turned crispy within a few days. Not sure if > that was the cause. > > FWIW, > Tierney > San Jose CA > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > > ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Wed Jan 9 13:21:49 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:26:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name At 9:26 AM -0800 1/9/02, Ivan Snyder wrote: > > >Hi Joe, Tom, Matt, Mike, and all, >It's unanimous, everyone think's 'Paddle' is not appropriate. I guess >Matt's idea 'Greasy Spoon' might be best since the plant does have rather >spoon shaped leaves. But greasy sounds kindof icky. Maybe 'Ivan's Spoon'? Replacing "paddle" with "spoon"? Paddle had some S&M connotations, but spoon is just downright sick... -Kit ;) -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Wed Jan 9 13:22:01 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:31:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Trichoderma---huh? Trichoderma is essentially a fungal fungicide. Depending on who you listen to, it either eats or outcompetes other fungus. It is also said to form a symbiotic relationship with host plants, apparently allowing them to absorb more Nitrogen through their roots. -Kit At 9:36 AM -0800 1/9/02, Barry Meyers-Rice wrote: >Hey Folks, > >Somehow I've missed the latest innovation that everyone seems to like so >much. Can somebody summarize for me just what trichoderma is? Bear in mind >that I'd like to take such a nice, clearly written summary and put it in >CPN as a news and views item, too. > >Barry -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Wed Jan 9 13:38:30 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:38:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Trichoderma---huh? So, people seem to like it then? I'm assuming it's compatable with Nepenthes? Where would you get such a thing? Kit Halsted wrote: Trichoderma is essentially a fungal fungicide. Depending on who you listen to, it either eats or outcompetes other fungus. It is also said to form a symbiotic relationship with host plants, apparently allowing them to absorb more Nitrogen through their roots. -Kit At 9:36 AM -0800 1/9/02, Barry Meyers-Rice wrote: >Hey Folks, > >Somehow I've missed the latest innovation that everyone seems to like so >much. Can somebody summarize for me just what trichoderma is? Bear in mind >that I'd like to take such a nice, clearly written summary and put it in >CPN as a news and views item, too. > >Barry -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Wed Jan 9 13:54:44 2002 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 16:54:33 EST Subject: Re: Trichoderma---huh? Kit, Barry and All, I admit I got so sick of seeing the word, I kind of skipped over and deleted a lot of these messages. The "supposed" extra ability to absorb more nitrogen sounds kind if intriguing. Can anyone who is using this stuff do experiment with trichoderm-introduced plants and similar specimans of the same species where the stuff is not used to see how they compare? I would presume you would have to have them separated to prevent contamination. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Wed Jan 9 13:59:04 2002 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 16:58:45 EST Subject: Re: Dindica vs. hartmeyerorum Jan, Ivan and All, The red indica that Phill has on the CPN issue of the 97 cover is D. indica(and a gorgeous specimen, at that). D. hartmeyerorum has pink flowers, so far. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Wed Jan 9 15:02:54 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 17:50:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Trichoderma---huh? I'd love to do that, but I haven't got the space or cash at the moment. -Kit At 1:56 PM -0800 1/9/02, Killerplants@aol.com wrote: > Kit, Barry and All, > > I admit I got so sick of seeing the word, I kind of skipped over >and deleted a lot of these messages. The "supposed" extra ability to >absorb more nitrogen sounds kind if intriguing. Can anyone who is >using this stuff do experiment with trichoderm-introduced plants and >similar specimans of the same species where the stuff is not used to >see how they compare? I would presume you would have to have them >separated to prevent contamination. -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: hsu@tlaloc.sfsu.edu Wed Jan 9 16:24:14 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 16:24:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Leiden European CP meeting I'd just like to add to Wouter's announcement: the nepenthes greenhouse at the Leiden Botanical Gardens is one of the most impressive ones I've ever seen. Many of the plants I saw were huge (over 6 feet) with numerous big pitchers. I remember some massive Victorian hybrids, rafflesianas and bicalcaratas, lovely albomarginata reds, among other things. Highly recommended. Bill ################### From: hsu@tlaloc.sfsu.edu Wed Jan 9 16:26:30 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 16:26:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: more Hong Kong info request: media Where can I find nepenthes growing media in Hong Kong? Just basic stuff like peat, sand and/or sphagnum. Preferably on Hong Kong island, or at least close to a subway stop. Thanks! Bill ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Wed Jan 9 16:58:14 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 19:58:00 EST Subject: Re: Ants in N. khasiana pot Hi. I saw your message on the CP Listserv. Yes, your problem has happened to me before! I also have a Nepenthes khasiana and it seems like a magnet for these ants. Well, here is how I treat it. First of all, don't bother putting the pot in water. Just take the root ball out while shaking out the loose soil - making sure there are no more ants. Just putting them in water makes it more difficult to get rid of them because water can get them stuck to the roots, where you can't see them. Don't even bother with killing the ants. For those that are on the leaves, just blow them off outside and their gone! Repot the plant and you should have no trouble! I would move the plant to another windowsill/bright place (under a flourescent light) somewhere in you house, so the ants don't come back. Also, it might help to spray some perfume (cheap kind of course) on the windowsill (without squirting the ants) so that their scent trail is gone. This way, they are less likely to come back. Hope this helps! E-mail me if you have any more questions! Owen S. The CP Bog http://www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Wed Jan 9 18:21:08 2002 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 18:16:52 -0800 Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name UUMMM...Are you going to try to sell it? All I can say is that my marketing people keep saying sex sells. :-) On a more serious note, I think we may be getting a little too sensitive. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. There are a lot of words we would have to banish from our language if we were always worried about all the possible meanings. Stephen At 01:27 PM 1/9/2002 -0800, you wrote: >At 9:26 AM -0800 1/9/02, Ivan Snyder wrote: > > > > > >Hi Joe, Tom, Matt, Mike, and all, > >It's unanimous, everyone think's 'Paddle' is not appropriate. I guess > >Matt's idea 'Greasy Spoon' might be best since the plant does have rather > >spoon shaped leaves. But greasy sounds kindof icky. Maybe 'Ivan's Spoon'? > >Replacing "paddle" with "spoon"? Paddle had some S&M connotations, >but spoon is just downright sick... > >-Kit > >;) >-- >"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary >safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." >-Benjamin Franklin > >"...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" >(...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) >-Flavius Vegetius Renatus Stephen W. Davis Primary: 408-229-2264 Mobile: 408-391-9575 Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Wed Jan 9 18:46:21 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 21:46:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name First, for the record: I did say ";)". Ivan, I am not actually aware of any obscene interpretation of "spoon", & I'm aware of a LOT of obscene interpretations. At 6:24 PM -0800 1/9/02, Stephen Davis wrote: >UUMMM...Are you going to try to sell it? All I can say is that my marketing >people keep saying sex sells. :-) > >On a more serious note, I think we may be getting a little too sensitive. >Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. There are a lot of words we would have >to banish from our language if we were always worried about all the >possible meanings. All too true, sadly. Look at what happened to S. cv. "Sultry Maid". Personally, I have no problem with "paddle". -Kit >Stephen > >At 01:27 PM 1/9/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >>At 9:26 AM -0800 1/9/02, Ivan Snyder wrote: >> > >> > >> >Hi Joe, Tom, Matt, Mike, and all, >> >It's unanimous, everyone think's 'Paddle' is not appropriate. I guess >> >Matt's idea 'Greasy Spoon' might be best since the plant does have rather >> >spoon shaped leaves. But greasy sounds kindof icky. Maybe 'Ivan's Spoon'? >> >>Replacing "paddle" with "spoon"? Paddle had some S&M connotations, >>but spoon is just downright sick... >> >>-Kit >> > >;) > >-- -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: bachelormt@iprimus.com.au Wed Jan 9 19:58:47 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:57:42 +1100 Subject: RE: Trichoderma and Orchids >From what I have been told, the fungus will not grow in the more open mixes used for orchids. I have applied it to orchids and seen no sign of fungus growth in pine bark, but it may grow in denser orchid mixes such as sand a peat that I use for tuberous orchids. However, I have seen no evidence of its growth in the pot I inoculated. It is most likely too dry. Enjoy! Mark ################### From: meadowview@pitcherplant.org Wed Jan 9 20:20:31 2002 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 23:17:30 -0800 Subject: Re: new offerings, introgression, web updates, cultivars, non-profit Hi Folks: The list serve has been quite active lately with a number of different issues. Allow me to comment on them and update you on our activities. 1.) Check out our web site for across the board updates. Of significance to you: a. Read the article in the RESEARCH section under proceedings about our rare planr survey in Georgia (A rare plant survey of Atlantic white-cedar, Chamaecyparis thyoides, habitats of the Georgia Westcentral Fall Line Sandhills). This article has a detailed, first-hand account of the discovery of S. oreophila in the fall line of Georgia in the mid-1800's. Also, we announce the discovery of U. floridana in western Georgia b. Under DISCOVERY we have a new feature: Pitcher Plant Bogs of the Southeast, an Illustrated Guide. Only West Virginia is active but we will be listing oustanding, publicly accessible, protected sites for people to visit. If you have a site you would like to nominate please let us know. Preference will be given to existing web sites which we can quickly link to. However, we will also be the originator of much new information. c. Check out REINTRODUCTIONS to see sites we are working on in Virginia and don't miss the latest features under The Joseph Pines Preserve (please note who the donors are - are you one?) d. Don't forget the CATALOG. The green S. leucophylla is available for sale but we only have 10 to offer in 2002. Note the numerous new offerings and watch out for more as winter progresses. 2.) Is there a Sarracenia you want but don't have? Please note that we can produce just about any Sarracenia species or hybrid you want for a cross fee of $25.00 plus $10.00 for shipping and handling. We guarantee delivery of one mature capsule, produced under the stringent Meadowview pollination protocols (check out PROPAGATION section for pollination in action). Now is the time to let us know if you are interested in a cross and whether we can produce it for you. This is an affordable way of getting the plant you want. As an example, S. jonesii currently sells for $30 - $35 for a single plant on the Meadowview catalog. If you order a cross we can deliver hundreds of seed to you which can then be raised to maturity. You decide which makes best sense to you, buying plants now or raising seeds to maturity. 3. Some color forms of Sarracenia flava are almost certainly due to recent, ongoing introgression. Without going into the details (since we are currently making these phenotypes through crosses, a lengthy process unfortunately, and will be publishing the mechanism of introgression in this species) I can assure you we can make an excellent case for this phenomenon in this species. 4. On John Hummer's recent article on cultivars. Beautiful photographs of some very nice hybrids and species. However, John comments on page 115 for Sarracenia Green Rosette "The cultivar name refers to the anthocyanin-free form of this plant". However, we have previously described this mutation with the moniker "green" in several publications (e.g. Genetics of anthocyanin deficiency in Sarracenia L. 1998. HortScience 33: 1042-1045 which includes a cover photograph with description of the green S. psittacina mutant, Genetics of Sarracenia L. leaf and flower color. 1997. CPN 26: 51-64 - additionally we discussed this mutant and included photograph in Noteworthy Sarracenia collections. 1993. CPN 22: 58-61). I don't have a problem naming an individual plant with a cultivar name (which is what a cultivar is - a single clone) but the mutation has been described by us as "Green" and I presume our naming of this mutation would have priority (Jan, comments?). 5.) Please note, Meadowview Biological Research Station is an official charity and designated by the IRS as a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization. It appears that some people have thought we were a private, profitable, entity and such is not the case. Your donations are tax deductible (plant purchases are not while memberships are, as well as outright donations) and we encourage you to donate what you can to assist our efforts. Thanks for listening and I look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 21:43:04 2002 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 23:43:01 -0600 Subject: CP tissue Culture
Barry,
 
I don't know how much experience she has in CP tissue culture, but I think Carol on this list (Hi, Carol!) probably has more expeience in tissue culture more than anybody on this list. She has a Ph.D in tissue culture, and has a company, Kitchen Culture Kit that sells CDs and kits for amature tissue culturists (she is quite an advocate). I have done basic stuff (Sundews, flytraps, etc), but I don't have time to do other than my Ph.D project (medicinal plants). I don't mind writing an article on basic stuff, though (how to make media, etc), but quite frankly, she is more qualified.  Anyway, check out her web page, www.kitchenculturekit.com. That web page is full of info. for budding and experienced tissue culturists.
 
 


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################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 22:12:59 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 00:12:50 -0600 Subject: Orchids and Trichoderma
<I really don't know how trichoderma will affect epiphytic orchids. As for the terrestrials, it should help them.>
 
I have been refraining from making comments on this because I don't have first hand experience. However, I did study Plant Pathology for my MS, and my initial advisor conducted experiments on Trichoderma (field trial), who wasn't all that excited. That fungus may or may not work. Biological controls are highly notorious for their inconsistency in results.
 
With saying that, I don't think orchids in general would benefit a lot with this fungus (I know this is not an orchid list), particularly, terrestrial orchids. They tend to do be more dependent on symbiotic (may not be really "symbiotic" in a traditional sense) fungi (they may be plant pathogens for other plants) such as Rhizoctonia solani (teleomorph: Thanatephorus cucumeris), that is parasitized by--guess what?--Trichoderma! This is an "educated guess" at best, but logically thinking, application of extra Trichoderma likely has an adverse effect instead.
 
< I don't have any orchids as yet but will quite soon. The Everglades Ghost Orchid.>
 
Don't take this as a personal attack. But I am a little uncomfortable to know someone who does not have an orchid is going to grow Polyrrhiza lindenii. I don't know who would recommend this for a beginner, and this species is not known for its ease in culture. Can you try something easier before you get confident in growing orchids like something you can find at local Lowes (Phalaenopsis lowesii, Cattleya hquensis, etc)? I also hope this is a seed propaged one.  Polyrrhiza lindenii is the orchid that was repeatedly mentioned in "The Orchid Thief" by Susan Orlean. That book wasn't really good, and I was negatively impressed. I would like to say something positive about the book, but can't
 
 
 
< I don't have any orchids as yet but will quite soon. The Everglades Ghost Orchid.>
 


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################### From: corusc8@hotmail.com Wed Jan 9 22:43:30 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 22:40:42 -0800 Subject: Native? Hey folks, Help me out here. I thought that Utricularia gibba was a California native, however this page cites two references contrary to that. Can anyone cite others or have legitimate reason why or why it is not native? Here's the site: http://www.calflora.org/cgi/calflora_query?where-calrecnum=8189&one=T Joseph Kinyon [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Wed Jan 9 23:24:00 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 02:23:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Paranoia with watering my nepenthes At 1:16 PM -0800 1/6/02, Ben Rush wrote: >Alright, I have just proven to myself that I'm very paranoid with >water my nepenthes, by how much I'm sitting here worrying about it. I would have responded to this thread sooner, but I was waiting for a chance to take a picture. It's here: I got a bunch of hanging pots a few months back. There were 2 problems with them: they had drainage holes that would dump water onto my carpet & there was no way to judge where the water level in the pot was. I fixed the first problem by cutting up a clear plastic takeout container into pieces big enough to cover the drainage holes & sealing the pieces in place with aquarium silicone. (I'll do the next batch with hot glue instead.) The second problem was a little bit more involved. I got some aquarium airline & connectors for the airline from a pet store & drilled holes in the sides of the pots near the bottom. I attempted to attach the airline connectors through the holes with aquarium sealant, but discovered that the aquarium sealant is not really an adhesive. I tried again, successfully, with clear hot glue. With the connectors glued into the pots, I cut lengths of airline & ran them from the connectors in the pot bottoms to holes in the rims of the pots. Now I can see the water level in the pots & water them a day or so after they run out. HTH, -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 10 01:15:24 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:39:10 +0100 Subject: Re: cultivars Dear Phil, > I don't have a problem naming an individual plant with a cultivar name > (which is what a cultivar is - a single clone) Not necessarily. All plants that match the original description and the standard (in the case of cps a colour photograph) do by definition (ICNCP Art.2.18.) belong to a cultivar. It is the responsibility of the registrant (the person who describes and depicts a new cultivar and submits the name for registration) to define all *distinguishing features*. If a plant has these features, it does belong to the cultivar. > but the mutation has been described by us as "Green" and I presume our > naming > of this mutation would have priority (Jan, comments?). Yes, it would have priority, BUT "Green" is not acceptable as a cultivar epithet because it violates ICNCP Art.17.11.: "In order to be established, cultivar epithets may not consist solely of common descriptive (adjectival) words in a modern language unless one of the words used may be considered a substantive, or unless the epithet is a recognized name of a colour." Colour in the sense of this article means specific pigments like Indigo, Majestic Red, Royal Red, Royal Blue (ICNCP Art.17.Ex.14). Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 10 02:10:19 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:33:59 +0100 Subject: Re: Native? Dear Joseph, > I thought that Utricularia gibba was a California > native, however this page cites two references contrary to that. _U. gibba_ has been recorded in two floristic provinces that overlap with the territory of California, viz. the Vancouverian (which enters into some mountain ranges in the N) and the Californian (that covers most of the state) provinces. It is apparently absent in the Rocky Mts. and in most of central (continental) N America. It is considered native in Mexico, NE America (incl. Canada), Washington, Oregon, and Hawaii. I do, therefore, not see a good reason why _U. gibba_ should not be regarded native in California. _U. inflata_ that has probably been introduced recently (by humans or other vectors) into California is missing in the database you cited. _U. inflata_ is not native in California (but apparently naturalized in some areas). Perhaps the authors have confused something. Kind regards Jan ################### From: moper@libero.it Thu Jan 10 06:00:10 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:00:07 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?D._petiolaris_complex_seeds_and_pollen_trouble?= Hi all, I'm looking for D.petiolaris complex seeds and pictures. Actually I'm growing: D.falconeri D.ordiensis/derbiensis/caduca (I'm not sure which one) D.dilatato petiolaris D.lanata D.paradoxa All the above plants when flowering doesn't produce pollen at all. Growing condition seems to be optimal: dedicated terrarium for North Australian plants with warm/dry day and cool/wet night. I'm very frustrated to be unable to propagate my plants. If anyone has good news for seeds or suggestions please email me. Cheers, Cristiano Perrucci , Genova -Italy- ################### From: xfaberman@sprynet.com Thu Jan 10 06:41:25 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:41:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name > It's unanimous, everyone think's 'Paddle' is not appropriate. I have no problem with 'Paddle' so it is not unanimous. Indeed, the first thing that came to my mind when I heard 'Paddle' was the toy paddle that had a rubber ball attached to it by an elastic band. It is likely an error to believe that every single member of this list is a "worldly" adult. Surely there are young people as well as less worldly adults who are members of this list to whom the word 'Paddle' has absolutely no "inappropriate" connotations whatsoever. Rufino "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Sigmund Freud ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Thu Jan 10 06:44:40 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:36:44 -0500 Subject: RE: Trichoderma---huh? I have to add two cents here. Trichoderma is one of the many, many species of fungi that can form a symbiotic association with the roots of some plants, via mycorrhizae. Mycorrhiza, pl. mycorrhizae: a symbiotic association between certain fungi and plant roots; characteristic of MOST vascular plants. It has been said, for example, that the soil structure of a native tall grass prairie is as biologically diverse as the canopy of old growth rain forest. this is predominantly because of the myco-fauna. Most vascular plants, in their native habitats have some sort of mycorrhizal association. The seeds of many vascular plant genera also depend on a fungal association to aid in germination (i.e. orchids). Basically, the fungus receives elements from the plant that would normally be unavailable in the soil, and the plant receives nutrients via the fungi that are more readily available due to this association. The use of mycorrhizae in GH production is fairly new (8-10 years). Many inoculation products are available commercially, such as MYCOSTOP, ROOTSHIELD, and ROOTS2 with Mycorrhiza. These products are by no means a silver bullet for perfect root health, but they have had fair results. Several people on this list have had good things to say about the use of these products. It is important to note that these products have been developed for the commercial greenhouse industry, they were tested and formulated for things like poinsettias and geraniums. They will not hurt your plants, but due to the vast number of beneficial fungi found in natural mycorrhizal associations, it is safe to assume that these products will not have the same results when used for everything from palms to primula. So, in closing. Try this stuff, take notes, read the directions, and let us know what happens. The End. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 10 06:57:33 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:52:49 -0500 Subject: Largest CP collection Hello Barry and list, You don't indicate living or dead plant collections. I recall reading a list published on-line in 1996 at http://redtail.unm.edu/cp/cpmasterlist.txt that would indicate the organization that I think Jan Schlauer was with- !CPW, had the largest (I'm guessing pressed and preserved) collection of CPs at that time. I would expect that this collection of rare educational material has grown quite considerably since that time. Take care, Steven Stewart > Hey folks, > > On my quest for largest collection of CPs, I have a front runner with the > following stature: > > Counting "species, varieties and forms", about 1000 distinct types > of plants. > > Can anyone top that? > > B > > ------------------------ > Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. > Carnivorous Plant Newsletter > Conservation Coeditor > barry@carnivorousplants.org > http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 10 06:57:38 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:05:52 -0500 Subject: Drosera hartmeyerorum Hello Jan, Last (hopefully) question from me about the moriform structures on this new species. Are these emergences aggregate in cross section as the fruit in Morus are? Is your discriptive analogy based on outward apperance or structural similarity? Take care, Steven Stewart ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Thu Jan 10 07:06:25 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:06:22 -0800 Subject: CP weblog I've been working on a carnivorous plant web resource - in the form of a weblog (sometimes called a "blog"). http://chuckr.blogspot.com While some of the posts are notes to myself, almost like a diary, I also keep track of interesting news and URLs that are posted to the CP mailing list (interesting to me, at least :-) I've also done some RSS/XML hacking and have a section on the site that automatically searches current news items out on the web and reports back anything related to carnivorous plants. I hope to expand this, as I find more "current news" search engines and then code something to scrape the data into my page. This will probably be the most useful feature of the page, as it's fully automated. I also added a Google image search that will pull up pictures of whatever plant I tell it to...which is mostly for eye candy. Ah - and I added a little search box that will let you quickly search the CP Database. The page seems to work under IE 5.x and up, Mozilla, but not Netscape 4.x. I can't seem to do the XML stuff with Netscape 4.x. I hope people will find this a useful CP resource. I'd be interested in any feedback. Thanks.... chuckr -- Chuck Rossi http://chuckr.blogspot.com ################### From: sundew@hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 07:18:50 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:21:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name Ivan, I was not too serious when I suggested Paddlestar Galactica or Greasy Spoon and did not mean for that to make it to the list, which is why these were sent privately rather than CCed to the list. :) How about D.sp "slimy fingers"? Not seriously. Matt ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 10 07:45:28 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:09:14 +0100 Subject: Re: Largest CP collection Dear Steven, > (...) that would indicate the > organization that I think Jan Schlauer was with- !CPW, had the largest (I'm > guessing pressed and preserved) collection of CPs at that time. The ICPS (no other organization would match the description; in particular, I was never associated to anything similar to "!CPW") does not have a collection of its own. The cp database is exclusively what you can find on the web (i.e. data, no collection of plants, living or dried). Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 10 07:47:43 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:11:29 +0100 Subject: Re: Drosera hartmeyerorum Dear Steven, > Are these emergences aggregate in cross section as the fruit in > Morus are? Is your discriptive analogy based on outward apperance or > structural similarity? The analogy is merely based on outward appearance. There is no structural similarity, the emergences are definitely not fruits. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Thu Jan 10 07:51:54 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:51:37 EST Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name Matt, Ivan and List, Actually, kidding aside and kidding included, I thought "Paddlestar Galactica" was catchy and one of the definite front runners. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: ATDEES@aol.com Thu Jan 10 08:00:39 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:00:33 EST Subject: Re: Ghost Orchid You could not find an orchid harder to grow than the Ghost Orchid. Most people think its called the ghost Orchid because it usually dies. To keep this on topic, I understand that the Ghost Orchid makes Nep. Rajah growing look like childs play. If you dont have a perfect GH setup for orchids,etc. I would not bother with this orchid. Having said that, I have a Ghost orchid that has grown about 1mm in 6 months and that is incredible growth. Cheers Alex [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Thu Jan 10 08:06:03 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:03:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Trichoderma---huh? > From: Killerplants@aol.com > > I admit I got so sick of seeing the word, I kind of skipped > over and deleted a lot of these messages. The "supposed" > extra ability to absorb more nitrogen sounds kind if > intriguing. Can anyone who is using this stuff do experiment > with trichoderm-introduced plants and similar specimans of > the same species where the stuff is not used to see how they > compare? I would presume you would have to have them > separated to prevent contamination. I searched for "trichoderma" on yahoo and it came up with a number of sites. One is http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/bcconf/talks/harman.html. I didn't have time to carefully read the whole study but the pictures and graphs would seem to support trichoderma as beneficial. There's one picture that looks like an x-ray of roots, showing a comparison of treated and non-treated plants. Please note that this is not a personal endorsement of trichoderma - I haven't tried the product yet. From what I've read it sounds promising, but the expert at a local nursery (which didn't carry the product) was very skeptical of any potential benefits. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: Cokendolpher@aol.com Thu Jan 10 08:48:09 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:47:51 EST Subject: Re: Trichoderma---huh? In a message dated 1/10/02 8:54:08 AM, slawarre@meijergardens.org writes: > They will not hurt your plants, but due to the vast number of beneficial >fungi found in natural mycorrhizal associations, it is safe to assume that >these products will not have the same results when used for everything >from >palms to primula. > Is it possible that the commercially available fungi might eat any beneficial forms already present in established pots of plants or gardens? James ################### From: smak_420@hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 09:00:00 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:58:57 -0500 Subject: Bio-Bran containing Trichoderma? i have called around the local hydroponic shops (only place i could find rockwool as well) and although i could not find root shield, trichopel, turf shield, promot or binab.. there was a product called Bio-Bran which has a spec sheet containing alot of the catch phrases i'd assosiate with trichoderma's effects. does anyone know if this is safe for nepenthes or even contains trichoderma at all? they have info up at http://www.rambridge.com/products/garden/disease/disease2.html ################### From: massey@fmhi.usf.edu Thu Jan 10 09:41:24 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:38:22 -0500 Subject: RE: cultivars- can of worms Hi Jan et al. Your description of the naming convention below raises some serious concerns to me. Perhaps I am missing a detail or two, but what you said would seem to me to infer that (and I will stick to Sarrs. for purposes of example, although Drosera and even the Neps would also serve) a plant of unknown heritage, or even a plant of known heritage that differed from the originally named cultivar, would still belong to the cultivar if it looked like the "original". In the case of the Sarrs. there is no question in my mind that you can obtain reddish, floppy, part-green things as a result of any number of crosses. I am not crazy about the idea that these all automatically fall under the same cultivar name if there appearance is indistinguishable. And obviously, the level of distinguishability is a matter of personal belief, not scientific measurement -whether qualitative or quantitative. As a related issue, someone on the list mentioned that the idea of cultivar naming was necessary in part to deal with plants that might have commercial appeal, or might be otherwise intended for wide distribution. We might also note that in most published names there is always a phrase something to the effect that the plant should be propagated by cutting or vegetative means. Both the need for vegetative propagation, and the desire to maintain the integrity of commercially distributed plants are moot if any plant that looks sufficiently like the cultivar by default belongs to the cultivar. There will be inevitable, overwhelming confusion if someone who desires a cultivar is told that: Well I have one, (sotto voice: because mine looks like it). With the Sarrs. what might seem an obvious exception to my concerns might be the anthocyanin-free forms. However these are a special case, and for these plants the qualities that determine their status can be measured simply and relatively precisely. This is clearly not the case with most of the other cultivars I have seen published. The single color photograph (not a knock at ICPN) is hardly detailed enough, nor does it offer enough perspectives, to provide a definitive, unique identification of the plant in question. I can even see the potential problem of everyone jumping to have bragging rights to having named the most cultivars (or is this already occurring?). Every example of a flava with a little trickle of red in the throat is to be called "arrow shot" or something equally inventive. Every plant that has a little more red in throat is to be called "twice shot", ad infinitum, ad nauseum. The only way the naming of cultivars would seem to make sense to me (IMHO, of course) would be that either 1) the conventions for allowing a cultivar to be named must be very strict, requiring truly unique and outstanding characteristics, (this has not been the case so far!) and/or 2) the cultivar name must be applied only to the progeny of the plant named, so that however, irrelevant, at least there is clarity and integrity in the use of names. I see no other recourse if cultivars are to have any useful meaning whatsoever. Well, I am probably beating against the palace walls, but what the heck. Tom in Fl. > I don't have a problem naming an individual plant with a cultivar name > (which is what a cultivar is - a single clone) Not necessarily. All plants that match the original description and the standard (in the case of cps a colour photograph) do by definition (ICNCP Art.2.18.) belong to a cultivar. It is the responsibility of the registrant (the person who describes and depicts a new cultivar and submits the name for registration) to define all *distinguishing features*. If a plant has these features, it does belong to the cultivar. Kind regards Jan ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 09:55:00 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:54:58 -0800 Subject: Flowering Nepenthes My Nepenthes x 'rokko' has sprouted a flower stalk. This is the first time one of my Nepenthes has flowered. How do I tell if it is a female or male plant? Ron Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 10 10:16:48 2002 Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 21:53:13 +0000 Subject: Re: No sign of CPN either Dave, > > I still have not received the latest CPN in the UK either. I thought >that I had been struck off by encouraging a discussion on the Tokyo >red-light district, and bringing the world of carnivorous plants into >disrepute. I've seen worse, though your discussion on the difference between English and American bathrooms came pretty close to the knuckle.... Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Thu Jan 10 10:32:33 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:24:36 -0500 Subject: RE: Trichoderma---huh? >Is it possible that the commercially >available fungi might eat any beneficial >forms already present in established >pots of plants or gardens? Nope, when these various fungi form mycorrhizal associations with the roots, they don't 'eat' other bad or good fungi. They form a biological barrier. Much like putting on a glove. This association also aids in maintaining the health of the roots, so disease is less likely to take hold. If a mycorrhizal association is already established, I doubt it would be disturbed by another beneficial fungi, unless this new fungi were more appropriate for the particular species of plant. In which case it may take over the association as the dominant mycorrhizae. Steve ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Thu Jan 10 10:59:01 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:58:41 -0600 Subject: Re: Trichoderma Steve, If I understand your last post correctly, there is one point I must disagree with. According to studies done at Cornell University, Trichoderma spp. do indeed target and destroy offending fungi through a process called mycoparasitism. One reference is here: http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/bcconf/talks/harman.html Respectfully, Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:34 PM > > > >Is it possible that the commercially > >available fungi might eat any beneficial > >forms already present in established > >pots of plants or gardens? > > Nope, when these various fungi form mycorrhizal associations with the > roots, they don't 'eat' other bad or good fungi. They form a biological > barrier. Much like putting on a glove. This association also aids in > maintaining the health of the roots, so disease is less likely to take hold. > > If a mycorrhizal association is already established, I doubt it would be > disturbed by another beneficial fungi, unless this new fungi were more > appropriate for the particular species of plant. In which case it may take > over the association as the dominant mycorrhizae. > > > Steve > > > ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Thu Jan 10 11:26:41 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:18:45 -0500 Subject: RE: Trichoderma Hey Tom, You are absolutely right, Trichoderma may target and destroy OFFENDING fungi. As this article states, "This process (mycoparastitism) limits growth and activity of plant pathogenic fungi". The Trichoderma does not consume or 'eat' the pathogenic fungi but it may produce substances that kill or break down the apposing pathogen. The beneficial fungi protects through its root association by limiting the pathogenic fungi's ability to grow and reproduce. Fantastic article. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Tom Stubblefield Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 2:03 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Steve, If I understand your last post correctly, there is one point I must disagree with. According to studies done at Cornell University, Trichoderma spp. do indeed target and destroy offending fungi through a process called mycoparasitism. One reference is here: http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/bcconf/talks/harman.html Respectfully, Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:34 PM > > > >Is it possible that the commercially > >available fungi might eat any beneficial > >forms already present in established > >pots of plants or gardens? > > Nope, when these various fungi form mycorrhizal associations with the > roots, they don't 'eat' other bad or good fungi. They form a biological > barrier. Much like putting on a glove. This association also aids in > maintaining the health of the roots, so disease is less likely to take hold. > > If a mycorrhizal association is already established, I doubt it would be > disturbed by another beneficial fungi, unless this new fungi were more > appropriate for the particular species of plant. In which case it may take > over the association as the dominant mycorrhizae. > > > Steve > > > ################### From: j.g.noordeloos@chello.nl Thu Jan 10 13:32:33 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:32:57 +0100 Subject: Nepenthes at botanical garden Leiden Hi Bill and all Cp'ers, At the botanical garden at Leiden in Holland they have a huge Nepenthes collection. For example a huge N. northiana with 4 huge pitchers. Some very nice plants of N. veitchii. One of the N. veitchii has a gold glance over the pitcher. But they have also a N. veitchii with dark-red pitchers. I can send you pictures if you wanted. Within a few days I posted a new page with several Nepenthes pictures on the website of Carnivora, so everyone can take a look. I 'll keep you posted! Take care, Wouter Noordeloos ################### From: bllorber@wcvt.com Thu Jan 10 14:02:33 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:01:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name I should think so! Living in Vermont with it's world class lakes and rivers I would only think of canoes and kayaks. Bryan Charlotte, Vermont U.S.A. > It is likely an error to believe that every single member of this list is a "worldly" adult. Surely there are young people as well as less worldly adults who are members of this list to whom the word 'Paddle' has absolutely no "inappropriate" connotations whatsoever. > > Rufino > > "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Sigmund Freud ################### From: Darren_bedwel@iquest.net Thu Jan 10 14:08:04 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:08:52 -0500 Subject: U. gibba I was tempted to buy some utricularia gibba on ebay today but since it is reportedly so easy to grow, first I thought I would ask here - could any kind soul send me some for, say, the cost of postage? I could maybe scrounge up something to trade for it. Email me off-list if interested. ################### From: S.Ippenberger@t-online.de Thu Jan 10 14:17:51 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:17:41 +0100 Subject: U. nelumbifolia Hi, thanks to all who described habitat and gave climatical information one of my U. nelumbifolias shows a flower stalk! I am quite nervous expecting the flowers. Can anybody tell me whether it is self steril or not? Stefan ################### From: mindmaze@msn.com Thu Jan 10 15:10:16 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 19:10:01 -0400 Subject: Trichoderma question I've been thinking about buying a bottle of Trichoderma, to see if it will help my plants grow better. However, there is something that I want to know. Will Trichoderma help with fungus infestations that are not in the soil, that is, will it also help with leaf spots? Thanks in advance Joel [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: K.Cook@bom.gov.au Thu Jan 10 15:48:14 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:17:09 +0930 Subject: Re: Hong Kong info and ants > >Where can I find nepenthes growing media in >Hong Kong? Just basic stuff like peat, sand >and/or sphagnum. Preferably on Hong Kong >island, or at least close to a subway stop. >Thanks! > >Bill Bill, I have found these sorts of media (but especially pine/fir bark which you haven't mentioned) are often in short supply in Darwin. When I can't get them, I have tried a commercial brand Cymbidium orchid potting mix. The thing to watch out for is that some brands contain fertiliser (enough to keep orchids going for a few months). Regarding ants, I have found that they steal peat from the pots for use in their road works and thus degrade the potting mix. Cheer, Kevin Cook Darwin ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Thu Jan 10 16:34:10 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:34:03 -0800 Subject: Re: Trichoderma Along the lines of Trichoderma, I've found a place that sells this: http://www.gardensalive.com/item_display.asp?ProductNumber=8962&PROG_NBR=5 Does anyone know anything about the active fungus they mention? They say: SoilGard(tm) Microbial Fungicide Controls soil-borne fungus diseases like root rots and damping-off. Gliocladium virens already exists naturally in your soil and, unlike some fungicides, will not leach chemicals into the groundwater. SoilGard works by concentrating large quantities of Gliocladium virens to overwhelm disease pathogens. They also have: http://www.gardensalive.com/item_display.asp?ProductNumber=1510&BTP=prog_display.asp?PROG_NBR=5 which is billed as an "Endomycorrhizal Inoculant", but they don't say what's in it. Chuckr ################### From: voodoodancer@hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 18:31:59 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:31:57 -0500 Subject: The worlds biggest CP habitat is being destroyed Please everyone who loves and grows CP?s needs to read this and please respond. It has come to my attention that the swamp where more species of carnivorous plants grows is in trouble. The Greenswamp in North Carolina is being destroyed. We need to come together and stand up to save these plants. The most immediate threat is a huge landfill that is being planned right in the middle of the swamp. I have a petition that is being circulated by the Swamp Watch Action Team. I beg everyone of you please sign. You can either mail it back to me or you mail it back to the Swamp Watch Action Team. Let me tell you what exactly is going on. I am from the green swamp area but I moved to another state early last year. I went home last week and I found out about the landfill. I also found out that the dump is planned to be 300 ft high and it is going to be built on a site that has numerous CP?s including VFT?s and sarracenia flava. These plants will be killed by the construction of this dump and who knows how many more will be killed by the run off. If you want to see pics of the plants on the site of the landfill go to http://www.geocities.com/greenswamp211/greenswamp.htm I received a letter from the co-founder of The Swamp Watch Action Team, and I?d like to include part of it : ? Mark, Testing has been a nightmare since the beginning. The state claimed they did not know how to test for the 23 different herbicides and tank mixes they use in the swamp until the compounds had had time to break down into other chemicals. When they finally got their act together some 9 months later, they tested for only five of the original herbicides, not the breakdown components. We later learned they had spent 5 years sampling groundwater over the state and released the results in 97, showing 27% of the wells were contaminated with pesticides. 14 of these pesticides were illegal in any amount because they were not health-based regulated. The Green Swamp has all but been destroyed. The practices used by the pulpwood companies don't even approach being the Best Management Practices that are required for their exemption from the Clean Water Act. We tend to call them pulpwood because they're not really growing timber out there, it's more of a genetic trash. There are many laws in place to protect the area but they've been ignored by the people in power. I believe things are getting ready to change, though. The landfill, on land owned by the paper company, has outraged a good many people and we're making headway in getting them to realize how sick we all are. Had you heard that NC is getting ready to legalize aerial pesticide spraying over everything, including schools, churches, day cares, hospitals, homes -- literally everything. We're working on a state wide effort asking for a ban rather than a legal residue. I 'd love to know where you got your sample. Did you see any places where they'd dug too deep and hit groundwater? There are miles of clear blue water running out the swamp now. It's even beginning to show up at our place on Town Creek. Ever think you'd see Town Creek water blue green? We're working on our county commissioners from the angle of the swamp being the 2nd greatest source of freshwater in North America and second in biodiversity only to the Rain Forest in Central America. This swamp is an important place. It's dying and so are the people who live in its shadow. I met a man last week who works at one of the chemical plants. He had just left a doctor who told him his lungs were black. This man has never smoked, hates the stuff, and knows 3 other men working there with the same condition -- one of them now with cancer. Doctor says it's not caused by smoking and stay away from that plant. There's no telling how many others are in the same condition. We have 1125% times the expected rate of Guillain Barre Syndrome (total paralysis in 4 hours, much like a stroke) and children dying from unknown causes. We have more than the 1 out of 2 men with cancer and a vet technician told me last week that it's quite common to have dogs come in with seizures. If they can't control them with drugs (which either make the dog sleepy or uncoordinated), they put them down. My tech was young and thought that was the pretty much the norm. No way, though. I grew up with dogs, never been without one and I've never even heard of a dog having seizures unless it'd had a head injury. I will attach a petition form as a Word document. The petition signatures will most definitely be a big help. Wonder if you could get the International Society to enter a plea on behalf of the canivorous plants? That just might carry some weight. If they agree, I'd appreciate having a copy for our records. The application is now pending with the Corps of Engineers and the Div of Water Quality. I'd have to let you know which agency to send it to when they decide whether they're going to deny it now or drag it out. When we whip the landfill, we're going after the toxic spraying and the draining in the swamp. And along the way, we're trying to clean up some industrial polluters as well. Gean Gean M. Seay, Co-Founder Swamp Watch Action Team As you can see there is more at stake then carnivorous plants. I know that this issue is a little more personal for me than it is for you, but we cannot sit back and watch this swamp and our plants be destroyed. There are 14 different species of carnivorous plants in the Green swamp and the Green swamp is the only place on earth that Venus Flytraps grow. I?m going to include two websites that can explain this better that I can. Please take the time to look at them. And I?m also going to include the petition. Please sign it and get as many signatures you can. You can email it back to me at Voodoodancer@hotmail.com or you can mail it, email me for the address. The websites are: http://ccsenc.freeservers.com/custom3.html http://www.geocities.com/greenswamp211/greenswamp.htm Here?s the petition: To Whom It May Concern: There is no justification for burying garbage on a thin sheet of plastic in the middle of the Green Swamp, the site of North America?s 2nd greatest source of fresh water. There is no sane reason for placing millions of tons of toxin-laden garbage in an area subject to contaminate two aquifers supplying most of the water to eastern North Carolina or in an area equaled in biodiversity only by the Great Tropical Rain Forest of Central America. 22? of rain fell in the Green Swamp over a 24-hour period in the mid ?80s and caused no significant flooding. Only 20? of rain fell over 48 hours during Hurricane Floyd and created flash floods cresting over 23 feet. With the presence of increased and enhanced industrial draining, the Green Swamp is destined to once again be the source of colossal flooding in the near future, capable of sending its swirling destruction in any direction depending on wind and sheet flow ? certainly not a suitable site for a hundred-acre mountain of garbage almost 300 feet tall. THEREFORE, we the undersigned, believe it is in the best interest of the general public that the Green Swamp be restored and protected, not made the home of a regional dump. Name Address: (Street, city, state, zip) __________________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Thu Jan 10 18:36:55 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:41:54 -0500 Subject: Response from Borneo Exotics (Rob) (nepenthes@borneoexotics.com) Hello, This is an automatically generated response to let you know that your message has been received and is flagged for the attention of Rob Cantley at Borneo Exotics. Rob will get back to you as soon as possible. Thank you. ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Thu Jan 10 20:25:36 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:23:32 -0800 Subject: Re: U. gibba Send me your address. I'll send you some U. gibba. At 02:24 PM 1/10/2002 -0800, you wrote: >I was tempted to buy some utricularia gibba on ebay today but since it is >reportedly so easy to grow, first I thought I would ask here - could any >kind soul send me some for, say, the cost of postage? I could maybe >scrounge up something to trade for it. Email me off-list if interested. Stephen W. Davis Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 20:32:50 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:32:48 -0600 Subject: S. flava
Phil,
 
<3. Some color forms of Sarracenia flava are almost certainly due to recent, ongoing introgression.>
 
I am not going to dispute this possibility.
 
<Without going into the details (since we are currently making these phenotypes through crosses, a lengthy process unfortunately, and will be publishing the mechanism of introgression in this species) I can assure you we can make an excellent case for this phenomenon in this species.>
 
But I am not too sure if this shows phenotypic polymorphism observed in S. flava is in fact due to "recent, ongoing introgression." Yes, it seems you can "create" plants resembling ones found it nature, and it supports the hypothesis to a certain degree. But does it really mean that is the way it happened? How identical are "created" ones and naturally occurring ones? And how do you plan to explain a chronogical event ("recent") through hybridization? I am not a molecular person, but some techniques that are readily available may be more "definate" and much quicker. I am very aware not every body has access. But this can be certainly done.
 
When I read Jan's recent comment on D. anglica, something caught my eye. He stated that one of the parents of D. anglica was likely a progenitor of D. linearis. I thought that was a very good point. We don't know how the ancestor of D. linearis differs from the present form or what changes occured between now and then. D. linearis may have not changed at all. We just don't know (at this point). So, say, a progenitor of S. flava was pollinated by a progenitor of S purpurea. Subsequently, introgression occurs. Does this make offsprings of this particular hybrid make a hybrid of S. purpurea, as defined presently?


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################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Thu Jan 10 20:53:35 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:51:41 -0800 Subject: California Native CP Hi, I'm am busy planting my bog right now and am looking for somebody who has seed from plants that are California natives. My biggest interest is sundews. I have Darlingtonia already planted. I also have a large redwood log that is alongside the pond, with one end in the waterfall. That means it's wet all the time and I'm looking for some CP that might like growing on the sides of the log. I can hack some depressions in it to plant them, but some non CP seeds are sprouting on it without doing that. It is a very, very rough surface. CP might make it ok too. I've tried to plant my backyard with CA natives, although it's tough as much of my backyard in under redwoods which produce lots of shade. Most of the pond gets good sun in the summer, although some only gets a little morning sun. Pictures are on my web site. (Sorry I know I've advertised it before, but I keep making updates so things do change.) Also, if anyone is interested and does visit my web site, could you give me feedback on how easy it is to get around? I'm noticing lots of visits to the home page, but there is a precipitous drop off to my other pages. I can't believe it's because people wouldn't be interested in CP. :-) I was wondering if the performance on some computers or connections might make people just give up. I have a fast connection and fast computer. Thanks in advance for anyones help, Stephen Davis www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Thu Jan 10 21:38:34 2002 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:38:32 -0600 Subject: Trichoderma, orchids, etc (again)
Hi all,
 
<The seeds of many vascular plant genera also depend on a fungal association to aid in germination (i.e. orchids).>
 
This may be a misconception or over-generalization. It is rather difficult (I think) to define orchid "germination" because seeds lack some structures (e.g., endosperm) commonly observed for seeds of other plants, and some phenomena (e.g., emergence of root) are not observed. Yes, it has been proved "symbiotic" (some argue their relationship somehow deviates "symbiosis,") fungi provides nutrients, etc "during" germination (and afterward). However, orchids  (e.g., Habenaria radiata, Epidendrum sp-don't remember which one., etc) can germinate on the surface of water. After all, seeds of most epiphytic orchids can germinate in vitro albeit on nutrient rich medium.
 

<You could not find an orchid harder to grow than the Ghost Orchid.>

How about some Saprophytic ones ? Many orchid growers agree Telipogon may be the most difficult one. Acacalis cyanea was considered to be one of the most difficult ones. I hear plants of this orchid, grown from seeds are easier to grow (but I have killed a few).

<Is it possible that the commercially available fungi might eat any beneficial forms already present in established pots of plants or gardens?>

This "may" be possible. but you can isolate Trichoderma from many types of soil, probably from your garden as well. I am not sure which species a particular product contains, but T. viridis is not some rare fungal species you can only find in a special place such as cloud forests in western side of Andean mountain, etc (I just made this up). But particular strain probably won't be found there.

http://www.rambridge.com/products/garden/disease/disease2.html>

Trichoderma is a fungal genus, and this product contains bacteria. If it is indeed Trichoderma, , it is a good sign you should not buy this.....

<If I understand your last post correctly, there is one point I must disagree  with. According to studies done at Cornell University, Trichoderma spp. do indeed target and destroy offending fungi through a process called mycoparasitism.>

 <You are absolutely right, Trichoderma may target and destroy OFFENDING fungi. As this article states, "This process (mycoparastitism) limits growth and activity of plant pathogenic fungi". The Trichoderma does not consume or 'eat' the pathogenic fungi but it may produce substances that kill or break down the apposing pathogen.>

From the webpage:

Among their other activities, they grow tropically toward hyphae of other fungi, coil about them in a lectin-mediated reaction, and degrade cell walls of the target fungi.  

This is a description of a degrative/digestive process. It can be interpreted as "eating" if you feel like. Trichoderma is a hyperparasite, meaning "a parasite of a parasite." What a parasite does? Parasitize. I read their mode of action may be partly due to competition, though.

<Along the lines of Trichoderma, I've found a place that sells this: Gliocladium virens already exists naturally in your soil and>

Gliocladium virens = Trichoderma vires. Check these pages:

http://www.dsmz.de/species/sp300607.htm

http://www.life.umd.edu/CBMG/faculty/straney.html

If anyone is going to Japan for the conference, don't forget to go to the Kosobe Conservatory at University of Kyoto. I think that's where "Koto" series (Dreamy Koto, etc--horrible name !) were bred. I am not real sure if the greenhouse is open to public, though.


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################### From: seansamia@yahoo.com Fri Jan 11 02:59:12 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 02:59:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ivan's Search For A new Cultivar Name Hello listserver! Ivan, what's the fuss? Why don't you just call it D.rotundifolia Tropical? That's how the plant looks, in my opinion. Sean Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jan 11 03:53:12 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:16:56 +0100 Subject: Re: cultivars- can of worms Dear Tom, > In the case of the Sarrs. there is no question in my > mind that you can obtain reddish, floppy, part-green things as a result of > any number of crosses. The important point is that the definition of any new cultivar must state what differentiates it from all other previously described cultivars. Registrants must state what makes their cultivar special and different. "Reddish, floppy, part-green" would probably not be differentiating in the opinion of many registrants (the above criteria have at least not been used in a cultivar description so far). > I am not crazy about the idea that these all > automatically fall under the same cultivar name if there appearance is > indistinguishable. And obviously, the level of distinguishability is a > matter of personal belief, not scientific measurement -whether qualitative > or quantitative. It all depends on the registrant. If any kind of measurement is used for the definition of the cultivar, distinguishability automatically becomes a matter of measurement for this cultivar. > As a related issue, someone on the list mentioned that the idea of cultivar > naming was necessary in part to deal with plants that might have commercial > appeal, or might be otherwise intended for wide distribution. We might also > note that in most published names there is always a phrase something to the > effect that the plant should be propagated by cutting or vegetative means. Yes. And this information *is* significant. But it is a recommendation, not a condition. It can become a condition only if the registrant mentions a characteristic in the description that can only be achieved/retained by cloning; such characteristics have, however, not been defined for cps so far. If anyone succeeds in breeding an identical plant (i.e. a plant with all distinguishing features mentioned in the original description) from different stock, this plant belongs to the cultivar. > Both the need for vegetative propagation, and the desire to maintain the > integrity of commercially distributed plants are moot if any plant that > looks sufficiently like the cultivar by default belongs to the cultivar. It is, therefore, necessary to select only very special plants as cultivars and to describe their special features very carefully. > There will be inevitable, overwhelming confusion if someone who desires a > cultivar is told that: Well I have one, (sotto voice: because mine looks > like it). What would this confusion consist of if the plant was indistinguishable from the original cultivar? NB: Cultivars are *not* trade-marks to protect any legal claims. Cultivar names are a means of standardized *communication* for the horticultural trade. > With the Sarrs. what might seem an obvious exception to my concerns might be > the anthocyanin-free forms. However these are a special case, and for these > plants the qualities that determine their status can be measured simply and > relatively precisely. This is clearly not the case with most of the other > cultivars I have seen published. The single color photograph (not a knock > at ICPN) is hardly detailed enough, nor does it offer enough perspectives, > to provide a definitive, unique identification of the plant in question. It is (and must be) detailed enough in the opinion of the registrant. This is the only criterion that matters for registration. > I can even see the potential problem of everyone jumping to have bragging > rights to having named the most cultivars (or is this already occurring?). Not that I am aware of. There is no hierarchy or inclusivity in cultivars, i.e. if someone originally had defined a cultivar that would include all forms of a denomination class (e.g. all species and forms of _Sarracenia_), this would not prevent the description of more specific cultivars, because their definition would allow a distinction from the previously described set. Thus, there is no point in having named the most cultivars, because this would not preclude the description of even more cultivars. > Every example of a flava with a little trickle of red in the throat is to be > called "arrow shot" or something equally inventive. Only if "a little trickle of red in the throat" was considered sufficient and distinctive by the registrant and if this was illustrated in the standard. > Every plant that has a > little more red in throat is to be called "twice shot", ad infinitum, ad > nauseum. The descriptions and standards would (at least in the opinion of the respective registrants) allow an identification, and by means of the International Register, all persons concerned could decide to which cultivar (if at all) their plants belong. Would this not be better than just having the bogus names "arrow shot" and "twice shot" without any possibility to check what such plants should look like (which would be the case if there was no possibility to standardize such expressions)? > The only way the naming of cultivars would seem to make sense to me (IMHO, > of course) would be that either 1) the conventions for allowing a cultivar > to be named must be very strict, requiring truly unique and outstanding > characteristics, (this has not been the case so far!) The problem is, there are about as many opinions on what "truly unique and outstanding characteristics" are as there are cp enthusiasts. There is no such strict convention, and I have no idea what such a convention should look like. > and/or 2) the cultivar > name must be applied only to the progeny of the plant named, so that > however, irrelevant, at least there is clarity and integrity in the use of > names. This is likewise the case if the name may be applied to all plants that are indistinguishable, irrespective of their origin. What should otherwise, e.g. someone do with a plant that is indistinguishable but of different origin? The plant could not be described as a new cultivar because there are no distinguishing features, and it could at the same time not be labeled as the original cultivar because its origin was different. > I see no other recourse if cultivars are to have any useful meaning > whatsoever. The meaning is standardized naming with all criteria to be met by plants in question, recorded and available at a publicly accessible authority (the ICRA). > Well, I am probably beating against the palace walls, but what the heck. No problem. This is the only way we can improve (although I would consider the ICRA an helpdesk rather than a palace; we offer a service to the cp community that we consider useful, we do not enact laws). Kind regards Jan ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 11 05:26:35 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 08:33:39 -0500 Subject: CP Masterlist '96 Hello Jan & list, At the time (6-9-96) when I found this list of plants I wrote that Rick Walker had compiled. I was interested in a few plants for class studies. I wrote down the site, and a few of the abbreviated sources that were on the list. I have [AL.] as Alan Lowrie a seed source with prices, [BAMR:] as Barry Meyers Rice, [LB] as Bruce Lee Bednar- with prices, [PP] as Peter Pauls- (mostly misspelled plants) with prices. I have your name next to [!CPW] I don't know what the abbreviation was to stand for, and very possibly put your name next to this designation incorrectly, no offense intended. I'm just trying to help find sources. Possibly Rick Walker has the key to the numerous abbreviations that were on this list. I doubt that most of the people on it would recognize their abbreviated designations. (except possibly Barry) This list might help find the largest collection of CPs. Again I'm sorry if I mistakenly associated Jan incorrectly. Take care, Steven Stewart > The ICPS (no other organization would match the description; in > particular, I was never associated to anything similar to "!CPW") does > not have a collection of its own. The cp database is exclusively what > you can find on the web (i.e. data, no collection of plants, living or dried). > > Kind regards > Jan ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Fri Jan 11 06:15:16 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:07:03 -0500 Subject: RE: Trichoderma question Its important to keep a few things in mind when talking about these media applied bio-fungicides: 1) They are effective on several soil born pathogens. 2) They are not a cure all. 3) In my experience, they are effective as a preventative, not a curative. I used to grow about 15,000 poinsettias every year, among other things, for a production Greenhouse in Detroit, MI. We would mix ROOTSHIELD granular into our media as it was being made. Poinsettias are a high maintenance crop, they are always being soil drenched for fungal disease or sprayed for calcium deficiency and insects. I hate them. Anyway, we found that the application of ROOTSHIELD at the time of planting, did significantly cut down on the amount of root problems we had. Allot of people keep asking, "should I use it on my Nepenthes", "should I try it on my Cephalotus". I say, GO FOR IT. We are all addicted to carnivorous plants. The research for these products is paid for by the floriculture industry. This, for the most part, does not include CP. You will not find Nepenthes, Sarracenia or Pinguicula listed on any plant product labels. I can tell you that I would not be worried about putting Trichoderma on any of my CP's. I am not saying anyone should try on their one and only rare Nepenthes. But, the only way to find out how its going to work is to try it out, take notes, and maybe even send Barry a write up on your results. Steve ################### From: Sundew1802@aol.com Fri Jan 11 06:21:19 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:21:09 EST Subject: Re: U gibba and digest2795 Regarding Darren and his request for U gibba, my response is "do you want it my the ounce or pound?" Please let me know privately and Im sure I can get you a shovel load:)) To Rick Walker-couldn't remember your email address- yesterday's listserv came thru with another attachment. How do I send it back to you for analysis?(cp digest 2795) Thanks Bob McMorris ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Fri Jan 11 09:08:47 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:00:15 -0500 Subject: Update on Irradiation Policies of the U.S. Postal Service I am forwarding this to the CP list, I think it will help answer questions about our plants/seeds and the mail. Steve TO: ASTA Representatives FROM: Drew Kinder, President SUBJECT: Update on Irradiation Policies of the U.S. Postal Service The American Seed Trade Association met with representatives of the U.S. Postal Service on January 7 to discuss seed industry concerns. ASTA has been following the procedures and policies by the U.S. government to combat bio-terrorism in the mail. Many ASTA members have been in direct contact with Association staff to discuss possible outcomes and their effect on members who routinely ship seeds through the mail for testing and commerce. The purpose of the meeting was to listen and learn from the U.S. Postal Service on the status of mail sanitization efforts and to answer our specific questions related to how seeds we ship will be safeguarded. I am pleased to report that the meeting was positive and the following points can be shared with ASTA members. \\267 Only mail which has been or will be irradiated is the mail that was in the Postal Service's Brentwood and Trenton facilities at the time they were closed. \\267 Current mail addressed to zip codes 202xx 205xx in Washington, DC is being irradiated. (Examples would include the zip codes for the U.S. House of Representatives which is 20515, the U.S. Senate at 20510, the White House at 20500, and the U.S. Department of Agriculture at 20250.) \\267 Irradiation of letters from Brentwood and Trenton has been completed in facilities in Lima, Ohio and Bridgeport, New Jersey. \\267 Mail that has been irradiated is placed in a plastic bag and an accompanying letter advising the recipient of irradiation is included. \\267 There are no new current plans to irradiate any other mail, unless a new anthrax contamination (or other bio-terrorism) is discovered. Accordingly, for ASTA members, it is business as usual. There are, however, some recommendations for mailpiece design that we can pass along to you. They include: \\267 Use safety seals and tamper-proof envelopes. \\267 Use transparent envelopes. \\267 Use closed window envelope rather than open window envelopes. \\267 Use a postmark or indicia that matches the city and state of the return address. \\267 Use a full return address and recognizable company logo. \\267 Discontinue using "handwritten" addresses. \\267 Include a toll-free number and web site on the outside of the mailpiece. \\267 Use indicia or metered postage instead of live postage stamps. \\267 Assess use of premiums such as pens and magnets, which make mailpieces lumpy and misshapen. Finally, ASTA is pleased to announce that we have joined the Mailers' Technical Advisory Committee, a group comprised of trade associations organized to assess, monitor and develop policies with the U.S. Postal Service that take into account unique concerns and experience. As a member, ASTA will be permitted to appoint two representatives to participate in the discussions. Meetings are held quarterly and members electing to participate by phone are encouraged to do so. Hopefully, this correspondence will alleviate much of the concern and apprehension by members and customers. ASTA will continue to follow this issue closely and will keep members updated as events warrant. Should policies change and the campaign to combat bio-terrorism require additional testing or procedures, ASTA will be advised. At that point, we will exercise every option and opportunity to meet with and work along side members of the U.S. Postal Service and the Office of Homeland Security to discuss options and ways to collaborate and cooperate. Please feel free to share this information with colleagues and customers. Joyce G. Latimer Extension Specialist, Greenhouse Crops Virginia Tech Department of Horticulture 306D Saunders Hall - 0327 Blacksburg, VA 24061 Phone: 540-231-7906 FAX: 540-231-3083 jlatime@vt.edu [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: brewerce@navseadn.navy.mil Fri Jan 11 09:13:38 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:10:06 -0500 Subject: RE: Trichoderma and Cephs Regarding Cephs and the use of Trichoderma (ROOTSHIELD). I've been grow and sell Cephs for a number of years now to many, many people on this digest. Recently, I started using Trichoderma as drench on leaf cuttings, established plants and newly potted plants. Although I have seen some results, I don't consider Trichoderma to be the answer to growing "Super Size" plants, rather as another beneficial tool used in developing healthy plants. If you decide to use Trichoderma on your plants, try incorporating it into the soil a week or so prior to transplanting any new cuttings or divisions. Just don't expect over night results. Trichoderma takes time to work and this also depends on your own growing techniques. Trichoderma does encourage healthier root systems, which allows the plant to absorb more nourishment, which produces a heather plant. In all my years of growing and experimenting with Cephs, I have yet to find anything that will get these plants to grow faster and bigger in a shorter amount of time. Cephs just seem to take their own precious time no matter what you do. What I have found out is to place more emphases on producing a healthier rhizome/root system which results in a better and healthier plant. Charles Brewer Va. Beach, Va. ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Fri Jan 11 09:15:00 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:14:54 EST Subject: Cultivars- can of worms In a message dated 1/11/2002 6:00:45 AM Central Standard Time, jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de writes: > This is likewise the case if the name may be applied to all plants that > are indistinguishable, irrespective of their origin. What should > otherwise, e.g. someone do with a plant that is indistinguishable but of > different origin? The plant could not be described as a new cultivar > because there are no distinguishing features, and it could at the same > time not be labeled as the original cultivar because its origin was > different. Yikes!! Here's my problem with that. It goes back to the S .flava color forms. An S. flava growing in ideal conditions looks much different than an S. flava growing in ok conditions. Let's say that a person is growing a "real" S. flava heavily veined form. His light level and durations aren't as high as the plant sees in its natural environment, so their S. flava has a more pronounced ala, the mouth isnt as wide, etc. This person then creates a hybid S. flava x (S. flava x S. rubra). Amazingly, this hybrid looks just like their true S. flava "heavily veined". If they are allowed to pawn that plant off as S. flava "heavily veined", then any person receiving this plant who has better cultivating conditions is going to be disappointed, because the plant will not look like their other true flava forms. It's going to look like a hybrid, because it's ala will never be full reduced, the lid will never reflex backwards as far, the mouth will not be as wide, etc. So just because a plant in one persons collection looks like a true color form (or cultivar) does not mean it will resemble the plant if it is grown in better cultivating conditions. I can't tell you how many "green" forms of vft I have received, only to have them redden up in excellent light. I have received S. flava heavily veined which was some sort of flava x rubra hybid. I have also received a fake S. flava "maxima". Yes, it may be all green. Yes, it grows to 4' tall. Yes it has a large lid. Yes, it may have looked identical to a true flava "maxima" in someone else' collection. But in mine it does not, and it is not. As far as naming cultivars, my opinion is that a plant should meet a few requirements before being registered. First, a minimum number of plants should be established before registering a plant. There should be no reason a cultivar is lost forever in cultivation due to only one or a few specimans existing. The name cultivar stands for cultivated variety ( I think), therefore it should be actively cultivated. A minimum of 10 plants is not an unreasonable request, and helps out with my next point. The plant should be grown by several different individuals BEFORE REGISTERING to ensure that the plants characteristics are retained, and are not influenced by cultivating conditions. I wouldnt want to jump the gun and create a cultivar of a blue flowered leucophylla, only to find out that it was created by one of my kids dumping blue powder dye into one of the bogs. Spreading clones of this plant around to different growers would help prove the viability of the characteristics making it worthy of cultivar status, and would weed out plants with very shaky characteristics. Here's a real example: A flytrap of mine a few years back produced traps without cilia. Leaf cuttings of this plant went out to several folks and were created as well by myself. We all concluded that the plant clones all had cilia, even though the original leaf cutting did not. Since none of the leaf cuttings taken of this plant is producing traps without cilia, this individual plant, as unique as it may be, should not be a cultivar. It's characteristics can not be readily reproduced. Adrian Slack created an enormous number of hybrids. Some in our group have first hand knowledge of this. And how many plants did he deem worthy of cultivar status. Just a few. How many of his plants were beautiful and stunning. Probably just about every one. If I have seen 1 million S. flava x S. leucophylla hybrids in the wild, then I would have to say that 999,996 were simply incredible. Yet only one I would consider worthy of cultivar status. (Not counting the one named after Don Schnell, which was also a wild growing plant. So let's make that 2.) If you want to know if one of your plants is worthy of cultivar status, then do this. Show the plant (or a good picture) to someone else. Let them look at it for a few minutes. After a week, have that person recall from memory what was so special about the plant. If its cultivar material, you'll know it by how they describe the plant back to you. If they cant really remember the plant, then the plant didnt leave that much of an impression. Get enough similar responses, and it should be left as another stunning plant in your collection. If you get enough poeple banging down your email because they just have to have one, easliy describing what they like in the plant, then you're on cultivar track. I havent had a chance to thoroughly go through the recent ICPN yet, but I remember briefly seeing a Sarracenia cultivar plant with hammerheads. I think it was created by John Hummer, and hammerhead may be in the cultivar name. But the plant left an immediate impression on me that I can easily describe it weeks later, even though I only looked at it for a minute. I cant recall for sure who actually created it, nor its actual name, but I can recall the plant. Thats the power a cultivar should have on us. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: massey@fmhi.usf.edu Fri Jan 11 11:29:09 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:25:58 -0500 Subject: RE: cultivars- can of worms Hi Jan: I was looking forward to your reply as I was sure you would have something useful to say, and I was not disappointed. However, I must also say (in all good humor) that I think you have finessed the larger concern I raised as you addressed each section of my letter. Let me add also, that I appreciate that the ICRA (what I know of it) serves as the depository for records and not as some watchdog organization. Perhaps what distinguishes our points of view is not the specifics of the way registration works (it is what it is after all), but personal frustration regarding what I see as the utility and consistency of the process. Let me explain. My major concerns (and I have no easy solution, unfortunately) are that 1) the inclusive nature of naming cultivars allows, and to my mind encourages a proliferation of names that offer little utility to collectors, commercial growers, botanists or anyone else, and 2) there is a good bit of misunderstanding about the implications of producing a cultivar. First, you state that "It is, therefore, necessary to select only very special plants as cultivars and to describe their special features very carefully." And you also say "The important point is that the definition of any new cultivar must state what differentiates it from all other previously described cultivars. Registrants must state what makes their cultivar special and different." Well and good, there is no argument. If we can rely on everyone to think carefully and apply this rule of thumb judiciously, then all may be well. However you also state that "It is (and must be) detailed enough in the opinion of the registrant. This is the only criterion that matters for registration." And "Only if 'a little trickle of red in the throat' was considered sufficient and distinctive by the registrant and if this was illustrated in the standard." Unless I misunderstand, if the cultivar is unique enough to the registrant then the cultivar is legitimate; that is all that matters. In short, if anyone seems to think that a speck of difference in a particular plant is significant, then by definition it is significant. And if described, the cultivar is established. It does not matter if 999 other growers see no relevance in this speck of difference, it still stands. And even if after looking at a single 2 x 3 photograph of a plant in habitat, if no one but the registrant can see what is being talked about, the cultivar still stands. And thus, I must reiterate: arrow shot, twice shot, thrice shot, and cutthroat, etc. if deemed worthy by the would be registrant (or as you put it "if was considered sufficient and distinctive by the registrant") are fair. The result: IMHO, we have the reasonable likelihood that these registrations will be absolutely no more useful (and maybe less useful) than bogus names. They may be documented, in that there is a record of who used the name on what plant, but there will be absolutely no guarantee (dare I say hope) that any reasonable observer could identify any meaningful reason for its unique designation or even be able to apply the name consistently in a way that others will find useful. Now, let me hasten to add that I am much too the heretic and iconoclast (or just too anti-authority) to suggest that we create some committee on standards and measures of the appropriateness of naming cultivars (the CSMANC). If founded they would probably try to start controlling the naming of city streets as well! But perhaps there should be a way to encourage growers and field collectors to rein in their enthusiasm for new cultivar names. Or maybe the ICPS could provide some non-binding guidance on minimum criteria for establishing new CP cultivars. While you are correct that "The problem is, there are about as many opinions on what 'truly unique and outstanding characteristics' are as there are cp enthusiasts" surely there is some way to make the practice more likely to generate a helpful documentation of unusual examples of our plants. As to my second concern, I appreciate your clarifying remarks. You reiterate that the cultivar name is a descriptive shorthand, and imparts no trade mark, legal status, or copyright. I suppose I knew this at some level, although I don't suppose I, or most other growers I talk to, carefully considered the implications. For example, I would have never considered the legitimacy of calling a VFT a red dragon, unless I trusted that it was a tc clone or cutting from the particular stock that could be ultimately traced back to ABG. I believe most other growers would have made this assumption as well. I would be rather ticked off if I purchased a plant with this name only to find that someone had decided that "it looks like the ABG plant to me, so that's what I'm calling it." If nothing else, growers could stand to be reminded of this. Best regards, Tom in Fl. Dear Tom, > In the case of the Sarrs. there is no question in my > mind that you can obtain reddish, floppy, part-green things as a result of > any number of crosses. The important point is that the definition of any new cultivar must state what differentiates it from all other previously described cultivars. Registrants must state what makes their cultivar special and different. "Reddish, floppy, part-green" would probably not be differentiating in the opinion of many registrants (the above criteria have at least not been used in a cultivar description so far). > I am not crazy about the idea that these all > automatically fall under the same cultivar name if there appearance is > indistinguishable. And obviously, the level of distinguishability is a > matter of personal belief, not scientific measurement -whether qualitative > or quantitative. It all depends on the registrant. If any kind of measurement is used for the definition of the cultivar, distinguishability automatically becomes a matter of measurement for this cultivar. > As a related issue, someone on the list mentioned that the idea of cultivar > naming was necessary in part to deal with plants that might have commercial > appeal, or might be otherwise intended for wide distribution. We might also > note that in most published names there is always a phrase something to the > effect that the plant should be propagated by cutting or vegetative means. Yes. And this information *is* significant. But it is a recommendation, not a condition. It can become a condition only if the registrant mentions a characteristic in the description that can only be achieved/retained by cloning; such characteristics have, however, not been defined for cps so far. If anyone succeeds in breeding an identical plant (i.e. a plant with all distinguishing features mentioned in the original description) from different stock, this plant belongs to the cultivar. > Both the need for vegetative propagation, and the desire to maintain the > integrity of commercially distributed plants are moot if any plant that > looks sufficiently like the cultivar by default belongs to the cultivar. It is, therefore, necessary to select only very special plants as cultivars and to describe their special features very carefully. > There will be inevitable, overwhelming confusion if someone who desires a > cultivar is told that: Well I have one, (sotto voice: because mine looks > like it). What would this confusion consist of if the plant was indistinguishable from the original cultivar? NB: Cultivars are *not* trade-marks to protect any legal claims. Cultivar names are a means of standardized *communication* for the horticultural trade. > With the Sarrs. what might seem an obvious exception to my concerns might be > the anthocyanin-free forms. However these are a special case, and for these > plants the qualities that determine their status can be measured simply and > relatively precisely. This is clearly not the case with most of the other > cultivars I have seen published. The single color photograph (not a knock > at ICPN) is hardly detailed enough, nor does it offer enough perspectives, > to provide a definitive, unique identification of the plant in question. It is (and must be) detailed enough in the opinion of the registrant. This is the only criterion that matters for registration. > I can even see the potential problem of everyone jumping to have bragging > rights to having named the most cultivars (or is this already occurring?). Not that I am aware of. There is no hierarchy or inclusivity in cultivars, i.e. if someone originally had defined a cultivar that would include all forms of a denomination class (e.g. all species and forms of _Sarracenia_), this would not prevent the description of more specific cultivars, because their definition would allow a distinction from the previously described set. Thus, there is no point in having named the most cultivars, because this would not preclude the description of even more cultivars. > Every example of a flava with a little trickle of red in the throat is to be > called "arrow shot" or something equally inventive. Only if "a little trickle of red in the throat" was considered sufficient and distinctive by the registrant and if this was illustrated in the standard. > Every plant that has a > little more red in throat is to be called "twice shot", ad infinitum, ad > nauseum. The descriptions and standards would (at least in the opinion of the respective registrants) allow an identification, and by means of the International Register, all persons concerned could decide to which cultivar (if at all) their plants belong. Would this not be better than just having the bogus names "arrow shot" and "twice shot" without any possibility to check what such plants should look like (which would be the case if there was no possibility to standardize such expressions)? > The only way the naming of cultivars would seem to make sense to me (IMHO, > of course) would be that either 1) the conventions for allowing a cultivar > to be named must be very strict, requiring truly unique and outstanding > characteristics, (this has not been the case so far!) The problem is, there are about as many opinions on what "truly unique and outstanding characteristics" are as there are cp enthusiasts. There is no such strict convention, and I have no idea what such a convention should look like. > and/or 2) the cultivar > name must be applied only to the progeny of the plant named, so that > however, irrelevant, at least there is clarity and integrity in the use of > names. This is likewise the case if the name may be applied to all plants that are indistinguishable, irrespective of their origin. What should otherwise, e.g. someone do with a plant that is indistinguishable but of different origin? The plant could not be described as a new cultivar because there are no distinguishing features, and it could at the same time not be labeled as the original cultivar because its origin was different. > I see no other recourse if cultivars are to have any useful meaning > whatsoever. The meaning is standardized naming with all criteria to be met by plants in question, recorded and available at a publicly accessible authority (the ICRA). > Well, I am probably beating against the palace walls, but what the heck. No problem. This is the only way we can improve (although I would consider the ICRA an helpdesk rather than a palace; we offer a service to the cp community that we consider useful, we do not enact laws). Kind regards Jan ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Fri Jan 11 11:55:13 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:55:02 EST Subject: flava polymorphism In a message dated 1/9/2002 10:29:08 PM Central Standard Time, meadowview@pitcherplant.org writes: > 3. Some color forms of Sarracenia flava are almost certainly due to > recent, ongoing introgression. Without going into the details (since we > are currently making these phenotypes through crosses, a lengthy process > unfortunately, and will be publishing the mechanism of introgression in > this species) I can assure you we can make an excellent case for this > phenomenon in this species. I am not by any stretch saying that my opinion on this matter is correct. But the gulf coast flava plants I have studied point to genes more than introgression. This might not be the case for east coast flava plants. It's not the case for everything in the gulf, either. There are plants which someone could mistake for a color form of flava by casually observing it, but is really a hybrid or complex hybrid. A true flava in gulf coast plants have well defined characteristics. The lid is large, and the keel well developed. The ala is very reduced. The back lid margins flex backwards as to overlap each other behind the pitcher. The mouth is large and flares greatly. The column is well developed. Now, can someone create a complex hybrid that has these characteristics? Maybe. But you would also have to duplicate the sword shaped phyllodia, strap shape flower petals, dark yellow/gold flowers, and all other features of a flava including mature pitcher production time. Now I realize that Phil said SOME of the color forms. The original statement made was >>Here is an example you will be familiar with: An expert knows that Sarracenia flava varieties have gained their polymorphism through introgression. >> The gulf coast flava plants are screaming out (at least to me, maybe I am hearing things) that this is not true. So any study into S .flava and introgression would have to include the gulf coast plants. (I am not saying that Phil is omitting them, and I look forward to any of his work on this subject. I'm just saying that the gulf coast plants can not be omitted or dismissed.) Part of my concern for this topic also comes from the cultivar thread, where it appears that plants of different heritage can be considered the same cultivar. When someone ships me a heavily veined form of S. flava (used as an example, it may not be a cultivar) I want it to be the real deal, and not a plant that, in someone elses opinion (and cultivating conditions) looks just like the real deal. There are plants now of every color form of S. flava floating around in cultivation that are clearly hybrids, and do not resemble the handsome plants of the gulf. So, concluding, if someone comes up with very compelling research pointing to introgression being the primary factor in color forms of S. flava AND does not dismiss the gulf coast plants, I will take it seriously and may even be convinced to change my mind. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: miguelporto@mail.telepac.pt Fri Jan 11 15:39:47 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:38:22 -0000 Subject: Anyone growing Utricularia dunlopii? Hello there!! I wonder if anyone has got this plant. Is it already in cultivation? I would like so much to have such a wonderful Utric! All the best, Miguel ################### From: dpevans@rci.rutgers.edu Fri Jan 11 17:41:18 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:37:06 -0500 Subject: Re: cultivars- can of worms Dear Tom, > Unless I misunderstand, if the cultivar is unique enough to the registrant > then the cultivar is legitimate; that is all that matters. In short, if > anyone seems to think that a speck of difference in a particular plant is > significant, then by definition it is significant. And if described, the > cultivar is established. It does not matter if 999 other growers see no > relevance in this speck of difference, it still stands. Well, if 999 others growers can't see anything special about, they are not going to buy it, propagate or distribute it. The only problem that I can see with this is that a good cultivar name may be used on a lame plant that nobody wants to cultivate. While it's not required, I think Michael Catalani's idea of have several people checkout your special plant before hand to get an idea of how others will receive it is a great idea. Dave Evans ################### From: nplummer@duke.edu Fri Jan 11 19:01:37 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 21:55:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: re: cultivars- can of worms > > There will be inevitable, overwhelming confusion if someone who > >desires a cultivar is told that: Well I have one, (sotto voice: > >because mine looks like it). >What would this confusion consist of if the plant was indistinguishable >from the original cultivar? If one is only interested in propagating the plant by division, then there is no problem, but this confusion could be of critical importance if the cultivar is to be used in a breeding program. It seems entirely possible to produce indistinguishable plants which react quite differently when hybridized. For example, in orchid breeding, dark-red paphiopedilums can be produced via two different genetic mechanisms. One is dominant and the other recessive, so if a breeder does not know which plant he/she is using, a breeding program could be delayed for years. Similar situations are not unlikely in Sarracenia and Nepenthes breeding. The great strength of the grex system used in orchids is that plants of different ancestry can be distinguished, even if they are anatomically identical. Clonal names can then be used to identify exceptional clones of a particular grex. I wish the ICPS had been able to use a similar system. Nick ------------------------ Nicholas Plummer nplummer@duke.edu http://www.duke.edu/~nplummer/main.html ################### From: dpevans@rci.rutgers.edu Fri Jan 11 19:40:04 2002 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:35:59 -0500 Subject: Re: The worlds biggest CP habitat is being destroyed Dear Mark, > It has come to my attention that the swamp where more species of > carnivorous plants grows is in trouble. The Greenswamp in North Carolina is > being destroyed. We need to come together and stand up to save these plants. I can attest to poor conditions around the Greenswamp. I went on a CP photography/visiting trip last summer (2001) down to South Carolina and up the coast . I drove though the swamp and walked on some of the property owned by The Nature Conservency. I didn't get to stay long since thunderstorms had started up :( I saw some _D. intermedia_ and one large _S. flava_ and one very small _S. catesbaei_. then the rains came and I have get back to the car. Nearly all the surrounding areas, which 'are' (soon to be 'were') still part of the Green Swamp though not protected, appear to be in various stages of land development. TNC area was the only area of the Green Swamp left, that I saw, which still looked healthy. It is easy to see why extra pollution can readly cause damage to what is left (there isn't that much). Good luck with the petion, signed below. > To Whom It May Concern: > > There is no justification for burying garbage on a thin sheet of plastic in > the middle of the Green Swamp, the site of North America?s 2nd greatest > source of fresh water. There is no sane reason for placing millions of tons > of toxin-laden garbage in an area subject to contaminate two aquifers > supplying most of the water to eastern North Carolina or in an area equaled > in biodiversity only by the Great Tropical Rain Forest of Central America. > 22? of rain fell in the Green Swamp over a 24-hour period in the mid ?80s > and caused no significant flooding. Only 20? of rain fell over 48 hours > during Hurricane Floyd and created flash floods cresting over 23 feet. With > the presence of increased and enhanced industrial draining, the Green Swamp > is destined to once again be the source of colossal flooding in the near > future, capable of sending its swirling destruction in any direction > depending on wind and sheet flow ? certainly not a suitable site for a > hundred-acre mountain of garbage almost 300 feet tall. > > THEREFORE, we the undersigned, believe it is in the best interest of the > general public that the Green Swamp be restored and protected, not made the > home of a regional dump. David Peter Evans 17 North 12th. Street Kenilworth NJ 07033 ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Fri Jan 11 22:14:46 2002 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 00:14:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Ghost Orchid Hello Alex, Hideka, and all, >You could not find an orchid harder to grow than the Ghost Orchid. I was not offended. Quite the contrary. I appreciated your input and have chosen a more user-friendly plant. I have chosen a fragrant everblooming miniature which I am able to grow among the cp in my 55 gal terrarium. I really don't have the room to start buying full size plants again. When my family and I moved to the midwest, I sold my greenhouse and orchid/cp collection. A hard thing to do but at the time I had no recourse. I've been raising orchids and cp as a hobbyist for 30+ years but never got into the rarer varieties. I've flasked many seed and lost many a transplant through the years. I am just getting back into it but at a more moderate pace and on a smaller scale as well. Kind regards, Tom Stubblefield dedicated hobbyist :) ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:38 PM > >
Hi all,
>
 
>
<The seeds of many vascular plant genera also depend on a fungal association to aid in germination (i.e. orchids).>
>
 
>
This may be a misconception or over-generalization. It is rather difficult (I think) to define orchid "germination" because seeds lack some structures (e.g., endosperm) commonly observed for seeds of other plants, and some phenomena (e.g., emergence of root) are not observed. Yes, it has been proved "symbiotic" (some argue their relationship somehow deviates "symbiosis,") fungi provides nutrients, etc "during" germination (and afterward). However, orchids  (e.g., Habenaria radiata, Epidendrum sp-don't remember which one., etc) can germinate on the surface of water. After all, seeds of most epiphytic orchids can germinate in vitro albeit on nutrient rich medium.
>
 
>
>
>
>
>

<You could not find an orchid harder to grow than the Ghost Orchid.>

>

How about some Saprophytic ones ? Many orchid growers agree Telipogon may be the most difficult one. Acacalis cyanea was considered to be one of the most difficult ones. I hear plants of this orchid, grown from seeds are easier to grow (but I have killed a few).

>
>

<Is it possible that the commercially available fungi might eat any beneficial forms already present in established pots of plants or gardens?>

>

This "may" be possible. but you can isolate Trichoderma from many types of soil, probably from your garden as well. I am not sure which species a particular product contains, but T. viridis is not some rare fungal species you can only find in a special place such as cloud forests in western side of Andean mountain, etc (I just made this up). But particular strain probably won't be found there.

>

http:/ /www.rambridge.com/products/garden/disease/disease2.html>

>

Trichoderma is a fungal genus, and this product contains bacteria. If it is indeed Trichoderma, , it is a good sign you should not buy this.....

>

<If I understand your last post correctly, there is one point I must disagree  with. According to studies done at Cornell University, Trichoderma spp. do indeed target and destroy offending fungi through a process called mycoparasitism.>

>

 <You are absolutely right, Trichoderma may target and destroy OFFENDING fungi. As this article states, "This process (mycoparastitism) limits growth and activity of plant pathogenic fungi". The Trichoderma does not consume or 'eat' the pathogenic fungi but it may produce substances that kill or break down the apposing pathogen.>

>

From the webpage:

>

Among their other activities, they grow tropically toward hyphae of other fungi, coil about them in a lectin-mediated reaction, and degrade cell walls of the target fungi.  

>

This is a description of a degrative/digestive process. It can be interpreted as "eating" if you feel like. Trichoderma is a hyperparasite, meaning "a parasite of a parasite." What a parasite does? Parasitize. I read their mode of action may be partly due to competition, though.

>

<Along the lines of Trichoderma, I've found a place that sells this: Gliocladium virens already exists naturally in your soil and>

>

Gliocladium virens = Trichoderma vires. Check these pages:

>

http://www.dsmz.de/species/sp 300607.htm

>

http://www.life.umd .edu/CBMG/faculty/straney.html

>
If anyone is going to Japan for the conference, don't forget to go to the Kosobe Conservatory at University of Kyoto. I think that's where "Koto" series (Dreamy Koto, etc--horrible name !) were bred. I am not real sure if the greenhouse is open to public, though.


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> > ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Fri Jan 11 23:30:50 2002 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 01:30:35 -0600 Subject: Are There Any Rare Miniature CP ? Hello all, I am seeking the help of those more knowledgable than I in compiling a list of rare to vary rare but still legally obtainable (in the US if possible) miniature terrestrial/epiphytic CP that will grow well in intermediate to warm terraria. Nothing microscopic, please. I want to enjoy them, not go blind trying to view them. :) And certainly nothing that is impossible or extremely hard to grow or takes a hundred years to mature. I'll leave these for those who have more time. Perhaps something 6" or less in stature and at least 1" tall when fully grown with pitchers big enough to see. Failing this, I would appreciate advice on any rare cp that at least fits the criteria in my first sentence. I won't be ready to purchase for another month or two but do need to start my list to give me time to research the plants before buying. Thanks to everyone for their wisdom and input to my past questions. I appreciated each and every response. TomStubblefield ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Sat Jan 12 08:12:19 2002 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 08:08:29 -0800 Subject: Re: Help with cultivar name >UUMMM...Are you going to try to sell it? All I can say is that my marketing people keep saying [censored] sells. :-) Stephen >All too true, sadly. Look at what happened to S. cv. "Sultry Maid". Personally, I have no problem with "paddle". -Kit >Surely there are young people as well as less worldly adults who are members of this list to whom the word 'Paddle' has absolutely no "inappropriate" connotations whatsoever. Rufino "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Sigmund Freud I should think so! Living in Vermont with it's world class lakes and rivers I would only think of canoes and kayaks. Bryan Charlotte, Vermont Hi Joe, Stephen, Kit, Matt, William, Rufino, Bryan, and all, Cool, I hadn't really considered that angle Stephen. I figure I'll turn it over to Peter D. and let him sell it. Matt told me he was not serious about 'Spoon' anyway, though, it is a bit more rounded than typical Paddle-leaf and more spoon shaped. Alright then, we will go with 'Ivan's Paddle'. I will bring some plants to our LACP meeting today and see how many people would like a little paddle:-o Thanks again, Ivan http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: tmalcolm@islandnet.com Sat Jan 12 12:32:18 2002 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 12:29:25 -0800 Subject: RE: cultivars- can of worms How has cultivar registration worked for other horticultural areas? Hypothetical worst-case scenarios aside, what have the actual results been for orchids or roses (or Saintpaulia for that matter)? tim. ################### From: hybrid_t@hotmail.com Sat Jan 12 14:09:07 2002 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 22:09:05 Subject: Re:trichoderma and cephs Hi Tom, >What was the brand of this trichoderma? RootShield. >I have small ferns flourishing in the RootShield treated media in my CP >tank. Yeah, I don't really think the trichoderma is what fried mine (they are coming back btw!) >Is your ceph too wet? Low humidity? Not enough light? Are the roots okay? >Have you tried mixing trichoderma with water and drenching the whole plant? >Can you elaborate on your growing conditions? I'd like to help if I can. Thanks. Actually, this ceph has been to hell and back with me. It was one of the first CPs I got about nine years ago, when I had no idea how to take care of it. It totally disappeared twice and then came back. About three years ago I put it in a nice deep pot and babied it and it was doing really well, got multiple growing points and big traps. I have it on a windowsill under flourescent lights. The pot is raised so that the plant is about 6 inches under the lights. It seemed to love that until recently, when a lot of traps started to yellow and die. I think they are dying faster than new ones are being put out now. As far as water, I use DI water on it about once a week (?), and I water until some comes out into the saucer and then it stands in that for a few days until it evaporates. And yes, I did a soil drench with the trichoderma. I wonder if I should change the soil. The moss which grows on top (not sphagnum- don't know what kind) is also looking sickly and yellow. Any thoughts? Thanks for any advice! -Tierney Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: jgbritt@mac.com Sat Jan 12 19:30:36 2002 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 19:30:25 -0800 Subject: New on the ICPS web site There are a number of new features on the The International Carnivorous Plant Society web site. (1) Pete Thiel added an archive of postings to this list. You can view previous postings in order or search for postings on any topic. As of right now the archive is manually updated monthly from my mail server. We hope to automate this process but it may take a few months. http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cplist/AboutCPList.htm The site also has information about the CP list and list server. (2) The News and Events pages have been redone with a database back-end. The pages are now generated on request with only current information. Anyone may submit events for inclusion on the site. An ICPS member will review submissions to make sure they are appropriate. http://www.carnivorousplants.org/news/newsmain.php (3) The Carnivorous Plant Newsletter index is approaching up-to-date. The ICPS member entering the information is up to the March 2001 issue and expects to finish the final issues of 2001 well ahead of the next issue being released. I use the index all the time when I need to look up information in the back issues. http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/Search.php (4) The CPN back issue sale has been very successful! We ran out of certain issues so decided to add another volume to the sale. You can now get all the issues we have left from 1978-1996 for $125 plus postage and handling (and sales tax for California residents). If you order volumes from 1997 through 2001 at the same time you get them at a special price. Please see http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/BackIssues.htm for more information. ################### From: tissueculture@yahoo.com Sat Jan 12 22:15:51 2002 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 22:15:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Los Angeles CP Society meeting with Alfred Lau Hello everyone, I rarely write on the list but I simply must share my exitement about how great our meeting was today. Dr. Alfred Lau gave his slide presentation of Pinguicula in Mexico (including what looks like P.sharpii in Belize). Even though we had him give this presentation several years ago I was still blown away by the beautiful and exciting slides. Why exciting? Because several of them are still undescribed and simply wonderful. I hear that he will be in the Bay Area and highly recommend to all that can go to do so. He will be in Arizona this coming Wednesday (16th) till Sunday night (20). If there are any members of cp, orchid, passiflora, cacti (he has 18 presentations!)clubs in Tucson or Phoenix let me know if you would like to invite him to give a presentation (he's open the 18th-20th). Any other members throughout CA can also contact me if you would to invite him to speak to your group. He is "homeless" and "carless" (I don't know which is worse) and would need a place to stay and transportation. We gave him a well deserved honorarium too. Vivan la Pinguiculas Mexicanas y Don Alfredo! His newborn/temporary website: www.geocities.com/floralectures/ Your fellow cper, Ed Read Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Sun Jan 13 00:19:53 2002 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 03:19:34 -0500 Subject: Re: New on the ICPS web site At 7:38 PM -0800 1/12/02, John Brittnacher wrote: >There are a number of new features on the The International >Carnivorous Plant Society web site. Woohoo! Cool stuff. -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Sun Jan 13 00:25:58 2002 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 02:25:56 -0600 Subject: Orchid registration
<For example, in orchid breeding, dark-red paphiopedilums can be produced via two different genetic mechanisms. One is dominant and the other recessive, so if a breeder does not know which plant he/she is using, a breeding program could be delayed for years.>
 
I am assuming you are referring vini color Maudiae type. It has been suggested so, but "scientifically" never proven. Or never published in scientific journals (AOS Bulletin does not count). I read this in "Novelty Paphiopedilum Breeding" by Koopowitz and Hasegawa, and supposedly this appeared in Proceedings of WOC (don't know which one). There were mainly two sources of vini color pigmentation: Paph. callosum 'Sparkling Burgandy' FCC/AOS, and Paph. callosum 'Jac.' The latter has been lately described as a new species by Koopowitz and Hasegawa, and I have a personal reservation on this.
 
But if you think about the complexity of modern Maudiae type Paphs, I don't think it is that clear cut. For example, Paph. Voodoo Magic is Paph. Vintner's Treasure x Paph. Goultenianum. The hybrid has following species in its background: Paph. sukhakulii, Paph. purpuratum, Paph. barbatum, Paph. callosum, Paph. lowrenceanum, and Paph. curtisii. The influence of Paph. barbatum on red pigmentation of modern Bulldog Paph. is well documented (e.g., Orchilla 'Chilton' AM/RHS, FCC/AOS)
 

<The great strength of the grex system used in orchids is that plants of different ancestry can be distinguished, even if they are anatomically identical. Clonal names can then be used to identify exceptional clones of a particular grex.>

I don't quite follow the logics here. There is so much confusion on Sander's List, and in some respects, it is quite outdated as well. For example, RHS does not recognize Encyclia as its own genus, and still include all Encyclia species in Epidendrum. It is also known Phalaenopsis does not (usually) breed with Paraphalaenopsis, but for the registration purposes, hybrids of Paraphalaenopsis are treated as Phalaenopsis hybrids. This is partly due to frequent change in orchid names. And yes, in the beginning of the Sander's List, cultivar names were also recorded.

There was an artcle by Ned Nash some time ago ('94) on pink Cattleya breeding at Stewart. As is the case with his writing, he basically boasted about breeding at Stewart. One thing that really surprised me was, he attributed success of their breeding program to this particular hybrid that "they" misregistered. Mistakes may be inevitable in any system.

<How has cultivar registration worked for other horticultural areas? Hypothetical worst-case scenarios aside, what have the actual results been for orchids or roses (or Saintpaulia for that matter)?>

Grex names of orchids are registered through RHS (Royal Horticulture Society), and the names appear in Sander's List. Every three year or so an addendum is published. To register a grex, you need to be the person who made the cross or have permission from the breeder. For a friend I know, I contacted The Orchid Zone a couple years ago to do this. The registration fee is not all that expensive. I think it was around $12.

A little explanation on "grex." A grex (means a "herd") is a new combination of between species, hybrids, or betwen a species and a hybrid. For example, Paph. Maudiae is Paph. callosum x Paph. lawrenceanum. If you make this particular cross, it will be always  Paph. Maudiae since it has been registered as such. The Sander's list does not recognize reciprocal crosses, or consider ploidy of parents. Genetically speaking, if you cross Paph. lawrenceanum (4 n) x Paph. callosum (2 n), it is pretty much identical to Paph. Alma Gevaert (Paph. lawrenceanum x Paph. Maudiae), but this hybrid is still considered as Paph. Maudiae. A similar thing happened with Lc. Mini Purple (C. walkeriana x L. pumila) recently.

I think cultivar name is pretty much up to the "original" owner of the particular clone. If a clone is given an award from AOS (American Orchid Society), the clonal name becomes "official." You are supposed to honor the "original" clonal name, but it is not mandantry. As you can guess, there have been (many?) incidents. I know a few incidents, but I am not supposed to tell here.

Using the example of Paph. Maudiae, there are many clones of this particular grex. Some of the famous ones are: 'Magnificum' FCC/RHS (album), 'Silvarado' (album), 'Los Osos' AM/AOS(coloratum), Ebony Queen FCC/AOS (vini (wine) color), 'Renaissance' (vi ni), etc. Needless to say, hybrids between clones of the same grex belongs to the same grex.

Once your plant receives (quality awards are given to plants in AOS system), you need to pay the fee. The amount of fee varies (the higher the award, the more expensive the fee is). And if you fail to do this within a given time period, the award becomes invalid. And needless to say, there are some orchids that have some award on their label, but this does not appear on the index.

During this process, mistakes do happen. For example, when my Paph. Jeweled Tapestry was given an award (HCC), I chose the name 'Ispaphan.' I forgot how they misspelled, but I sent a check along with my letter, and subsequently they fixed it.



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################### From: chouhan@chouhan.com Sun Jan 13 07:48:57 2002 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 07:55:07 -0700 Subject: Help with media composition Hi, can any one list the composition for "Bill Carrols media" please. Ramesh ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Sun Jan 13 11:08:24 2002 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:30:33 -0800 Subject: Ivan's Search For A new Cultivar Name >Hello listserver! Ivan, what's the fuss? Why don't you just call it D.rotundifolia Tropical? That's how the plant looks, in my opinion. Sean Hi Sean and all, I might just do that. One more backcross of this fertile D. x obovata with it's tetraploid D. rotundifolia parent and it should be indistinguishable from pure D. rotundifolia. This will be as Jan's belief that D. tokaiensis is essentially D. spatulata. And according to what Jan says about the nomenclatural rules, I could name the new tropical form D. rotundifolia 'EverGrow'. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Sun Jan 13 11:08:39 2002 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:04:31 -0800 Subject: Re: S. flava introgression >But I am not too sure if this shows phenotypic polymorphism observed in S. flava is in fact due to "recent, ongoing introgression." Yes, it seems you can "create" plants resembling ones found it nature, and it supports the hypothesis to a certain degree. But does it really mean that is the way it happened? How identical are "created" ones and naturally occurring ones? Hideka >So any study into S. flava and introgression would have to include the gulf coast plants. (I am not saying that Phil is omitting them, and I look forward to any of his work on this subject. Michael Hi Hideka, Michael, Phil, and all, On my visit to the Florida Panhandle last year I witnessed what appeared to be introgression that had been going on for a very long time. The stand of one variant covered a large area. One place was the type location of a named variant. A give-away that the variant was of hybrid origin was in finding one plant with an unquestionable feature from another Sarracenia species, and this other species was also present there. I have photos. I am convinced that introgression is going on with S. flava, and for the above reasons, I'm sure phils work is provable. It's fascinating how these hybrids can stabilize into such successful and distinct variant patterns. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: K.Cook@bom.gov.au Sun Jan 13 16:28:55 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:58:44 +0930 Subject: Help with Cultivar Name > >Hi Joe, Stephen, Kit, Matt, William, Rufino, Bryan, and all, >Cool, I hadn't really considered that angle Stephen. I figure I'll turn >it over to Peter D. and let him sell it. Matt told me he was not serious >about 'Spoon' anyway, though, it is a bit more rounded than typical >Paddle-leaf and more spoon shaped. Alright then, we will go with 'Ivan's >Paddle'. I will bring some plants to our LACP meeting today and see how >many people would like a little paddle:-o >Thanks again, >Ivan If it's not too late, I'd like to suggest "Ivan's Smacker". Smacker being both something used to smack (eg a paddle) and slang for mouth. Cheer, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Sun Jan 13 16:54:12 2002 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 18:54:07 -0600 Subject: Re: Help with Cultivar Name I would like to see you people who have seen the plant getting creative with Latin. Like on the old Road Runner cartoons. :) Ah the memories... Tom ################### From: nelhardt@hotmail.com Sun Jan 13 18:10:29 2002 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 18:10:28 -0800 Subject: Re: Help with Cultivar Name >I would like to see you people who have seen the plant getting creative > >with >Latin. Like on the old Road Runner cartoons. :) >Ah the memories... >Tom I have seen the plant a lot and here is my latin: drosera x 'corynogemmata', which means, "club-like jewel". It is even more sparkly that the regular x obovata, also more robust I think, really a very very beautifull plant overall. One of my favorites. Noah Noah Elhardt cp enthusiast California,USA Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Sun Jan 13 19:00:23 2002 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:00:21 -0600 Subject: Introgression, field work, etc
Ivan,
 
Hope I won't sound mean or anything. However (yes, "However"), 

<On my visit to the Florida Panhandle last year I witnessed what appeared to be introgression that had been going on for a very long time. >

This does not tell me much. I suggested that you present some data, evidence, etc in my previous message, and Jan agreed. Should I assume you went there to conduct a survey, and reporting the results here? Many researchers do field work, and frankly, I am not sure if one visit (or a couple) would solve the matter. You should avoid using, "seem" and "appear" in scientific writing (my own advisor told me so). This may have not been such a case, though, and sometimes, it is very difficult to do so.

< The stand of one variant covered a large area. One place was the type location of a named variant. A give-away that the variant was of hybrid origin was in finding one plant with an unquestionable feature from another Sarracenia species, and this other species was also present there.>

Any subsequent testing to see if segragation occured or not? Molecular anaysis to show some evidence? Or even collecting values based on, height, color, number of leaves, etc? And if you did how many? How did you analyze? Those are kind of questions that will be asked in peer edited scientific journals.

<I have photos.>

Any quantifiable data?  

< I am convinced that introgression is going on with S. flava, and for the above reasons, I'm sure phils work is provable. It's fascinating how these hybrids can stabilize into such successful and distinct variant patterns.>

I have never said I don't think introgression occured or played a role. It is possible. But I am not "convinced." I think that's where Michale stands. You can come up as many hypotheses as you please. But you never did a hypothesis testing. Your information may be valuable, but not scientific.

Ok, here's an example. Followers of some religious cult (their name shall remain unwritten--it is copyrighted anyway) believe that the origin of human beings can be traced back to aliens (or their "thetans") massacared by the evil intergalactic lord (Xenu) with hydrogen bomb(s) on Hawiian islands 76 million ago. Did this really happen? Did they do a hypothesis testing? I hope they did . I hear what they teach have some elements of science. But if you assemble "facts" in wrong ways, it may not make sense, or you can come up with soemthing really bizzar. I think that's the danger of knowing half-baked scientific knowledge.

For on my part, I am still learning, and have made mistakes like Jan confessed. That's one thing I find rather unnerving about Voodoo scientists. They are not responsible for their claim. They think they don't have to go through the process we do. Of course you can say whatever you want. Your right of freedom of speech should be fully exercised. But if you deal with scientific realm, you cannot get away with this.

 



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################### From: chouhan@chouhan.com Sun Jan 13 21:46:15 2002 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:52:45 -0700 Subject: Ideal Cold stratification temperatures... Hi, What would be the best temperature to do cold stratification of seed? what happens if they are in TC medium and frozen? in the wet method of stratification, can the moisture in the packets with seed condense and form Ice? or will it have to be kept cold but not frozen? any answers please? Ramesh ################### From: arfalshaw@xtra.co.nz Sun Jan 13 23:19:44 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 20:18:02 +1300 Subject: Re: U gibba >I was tempted to buy some utricularia gibba on ebay today but since it >is reportedly so easy to grow, Am I the only person to have had U. gibba and killed it? I've not seen it in any local collections lately, so maybe it isn't that easy to keep going. Anybody care to share tips on how to keep it going? Water conditions, container size etc? thanks Andy NZ Climate zone: wet. ################### From: h7n@hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 02:48:30 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:48:28 Subject: CPN Since I'm still drooling with anticipation, have international members of the ICPS received their CPNs yet or is it just the UK that's waiting? Does anyone in the ICPS know what the holdup is? NigelH Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: h7n@hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 02:52:10 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:52:08 Subject: Marston Cultivars Seeing the thread about cultivar names reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for a while. Marston produced quite a lot of strains characterised by the description 'Giant', eg I've got some material of Drosera pulchella 'Giant' which I believe came indirectly from Marstons. Have any of these strains been registered as cultivars? NigelH Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: SteveDAlton@aol.com Mon Jan 14 03:19:09 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 06:18:57 EST Subject: Easy Carnivores Hi, Folks, Has anybody had any experience of a company called 'Easy Carnivores'? (www.easycarnivores.co.uk). I stumbled across their site by accident - never heard of them before. Steve Alton Sussex, UK ################### From: nplummer@duke.edu Mon Jan 14 05:26:55 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:25:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Orchid registration I wrote: >> The great strength of the grex system used in orchids is that plants of >> different ancestry can be distinguished, even if they are anatomically >> identical. Clonal names can then be used to identify exceptional clones >> of a particular grex > I don't quite follow the logics here. There is so much confusion on > Sander's List, and in some respects, it is quite outdated as well. For > example, RHS does not recognize Encyclia as its own genus, and > still include all Encyclia species in Epidendrum. That is irrelevant to my argument. Regardless of whether a particular orchid hybrid is registered as Epidendrum Orchid Jungle or Encyclia Orchid Jungle, you still (theoretically) know that all E. Orchid Jungle plants have the same parentage, and furthermore, that all E. Orchid Jungle 'Big Flower' are exactly the same clone. Even if the parentage of a hybrid is incorrectly listed in the registry, you can still be fairly confident that two divisions of E. Orchid Jungle 'Big Flower' are the same plant, even though in the orchid system the clonal name 'Big Flower' is informal. If I understand the CP cultivar registry correctly, you have no way of knowing whether two plants of Sarracenia 'hypothetical cultivar' are actually the same clone, or even the same hybrid. It is perfectly legitimate to name a new plant Sarracenia 'hypothetical cultivar' if it is indistinguishable from the description of the original. Of course, all registration systems are subject to abuse, and there are certainly mislabeled orchid clones out there. I just find it surprising that in CP (and most other horticultural categories), the ambiguity is deliberately built into the system, and not just a result of human failings. Nick ---------------------- Nicholas Plummer nplummer@duke.edu http://www.duke.edu/~nplummer/main.html ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jan 14 06:45:07 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:08:56 +0100 Subject: Re: Cultivars- can of worms Dear Michael, > So just because a plant in one persons collection looks like a true > color form (or cultivar) does not mean it will resemble the plant if > it is grown in better cultivating conditions. (...) > Yes, it may have looked > identical to a true flava "maxima" in someone else' collection. But > in mine it does not, and it is not. It is the responsiblility of the registrant to see to it that the characteristics that define a cultivar are maintained in different growing conditions. Colour variants are frequently not suitable for cultivar status, and your examples give an impression why this is the case. > As far as naming cultivars, my opinion is that a plant should meet a > few requirements before being registered. First, a minimum number > of plants should be established before registering a plant. There > should be no reason a cultivar is lost forever in cultivation due to > only one or a few specimans existing. The name cultivar stands for > cultivated variety ( I think), therefore it should be actively > cultivated. A minimum of 10 plants is not an unreasonable request, > and helps out with my next point. The plant should be grown by > several different individuals BEFORE REGISTERING to ensure that the > plants characteristics are retained, and are not influenced by > cultivating conditions. I wouldnt want to jump the gun and create a > cultivar of a blue flowered leucophylla, only to find out that it > was created by one of my kids dumping blue powder dye into one of > the bogs. Spreading clones of this plant around to different > growers would help prove the viability of the characteristics making > it worthy of cultivar status, and would weed out plants with very > shaky characteristics. All these are sensible recommendations, and I trust registrants follow this practice (or a similar one). There is, however, no means for the ICRA to test whether these procedures have been applied or not. And they are not required "officially" by the ICNCP (remember, ICRAs are not entitled to judge the quality of cultivars!), so there is no way for us to enforce "good horticultural practice". This is a task to be addressed by the horticultural community as a whole. The ICRA can just help by providing standardized names (not more, and not less). > Since none of the leaf cuttings > taken of this plant is producing traps without cilia, this > individual plant, as unique as it may be, should not be a cultivar. Yes, indeed. > I cant recall for sure who actually created it, nor its > actual name, but I can recall the plant. Thats the power a cultivar > should have on us. This would indeed be an ideal situation. Our duty as an ICRA is to provide an unambiguous name for this kind of plant (I guess from your description you meant _Sarracenia_ ' Hummer's Hammerhead ' in your example) if it has been registered. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jan 14 06:45:58 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:09:46 +0100 Subject: Re: cultivars- can of worms Dear Tom, > Unless I misunderstand, if the cultivar is unique enough to the registrant > then the cultivar is legitimate; Just a detail here: the term "legitimate" is reserved (in nomenclatural slang) for the names of taxa described according to the ICBN, it is not applicable for cultivars or their names. Cultivar names are either "established" (by a published description) or not, according to the ICNCP. The legitimacy (in a more colloquial sense) of cultivars (i.e. whether a plant deserves to be regarded and labeled as a cultivar or not) is not a nomenclatural issue, there are no fixed rules for this. > In short, if > anyone seems to think that a speck of difference in a particular plant is > significant, then by definition it is significant. And if described, the > cultivar is established. It does not matter if 999 other growers see no > relevance in this speck of difference, it still stands. Yes. > The result: IMHO, we have the reasonable likelihood that these registrations > will be absolutely no more useful (and maybe less useful) than bogus names. > They may be documented, in that there is a record of who used the name on > what plant, but there will be absolutely no guarantee (dare I say hope) that > any reasonable observer could identify any meaningful reason for its unique > designation or even be able to apply the name consistently in a way that > others will find useful. As a result of subjective judgement, this is indeed possible. > Now, let me hasten to add that I am much too the heretic and iconoclast (or > just too anti-authority) to suggest that we create some committee on > standards and measures of the appropriateness of naming cultivars (the > CSMANC). If founded they would probably try to start controlling the naming > of city streets as well! Yes, probably. > But perhaps there should be a way to encourage > growers and field collectors to rein in their enthusiasm for new cultivar > names. Or maybe the ICPS could provide some non-binding guidance on minimum > criteria for establishing new CP cultivars. Michael has provided such guidance in his recent message. Perhaps we can collect some of these criteria, and I would also be happy to publish a few of them (in particular those that are generally agreed upon) in CPN (manuscripts, please!). But it must be remembered that we as an ICRA are all but allowed to *enforce* such rules. This is something that must come from and must be maintained by the horticultural community, and a disclaimer in this sense would also accompany the respective CPN article. > While you are correct that "The > problem is, there are about as many opinions on what 'truly unique and > outstanding characteristics' are as there are cp enthusiasts" surely there > is some way to make the practice more likely to generate a helpful > documentation of unusual examples of our plants. I do hope so. I am appreciative for suggestions, and I offer my help where it appears useful (but remember the ICRA is not and cannot be a cultivar police!). > I would be rather ticked off if I purchased a > plant with this name only to find that someone had decided that "it looks > like the ABG plant to me, so that's what I'm calling it." If nothing else, > growers could stand to be reminded of this. OK, how about reminding CPN readers by an article? Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jan 14 06:47:12 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:11:05 +0100 Subject: Re: cultivars- can of worms Dear Nick, > The great strength of the grex system used in orchids is that > plants of different ancestry can be distinguished, even if they are > anatomically identical. Clonal names can then be used to identify > exceptional clones of a particular grex. I wish the ICPS had been able > to use a similar system. We are precisely not allowed to do this. ICNCP Art.4.6.: "The designation of grex is not to be applied except in the case of orchids." If you want to ensure a particular genetic composition irrespective of the phenotype of the plant (which is an effect of grex designations to be avoided in cultivar naming), you must use the taxonomic (ICBN, not ICNCP, not cultivar) hybrid formula. A grex in orchids comprises, however, *all* hybrids that have been bred with the same parentage, not only clones. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jan 14 07:16:52 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:40:42 +0100 Subject: Re: Marston Cultivars Dear Nigel, > Seeing the thread about cultivar names reminds me of a question I've been > meaning to ask for a while. Marston produced quite a lot of strains > characterised by the description 'Giant', eg I've got some material of > Drosera pulchella 'Giant' which I believe came indirectly from Marstons. > Have any of these strains been registered as cultivars? No. There is only one registered _Drosera_ ' Giant '. It belongs to the taxon _D. binata_. _D._ ' Florida Giant ' (belonging to _D. filiformis_) is an unestablished name (no description published so far). As the epithet ' Giant ' is already established for another plant, no other cultivar in the same denomination class (in this case the genus _Drosera_) can be described with the same epithet. That means a _D. pulchella_ ' Giant ' will never exist (at least not as an acceptable cultivar name). Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jan 14 08:11:08 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 15:34:57 +0100 Subject: Re: Orchid registration Dear Nick, > If I understand the CP cultivar registry correctly, you have no way of > knowing whether two plants of Sarracenia 'hypothetical cultivar' are > actually the same clone, or even the same hybrid. Yes. > It is perfectly > legitimate to name a new plant Sarracenia 'hypothetical cultivar' if it > is indistinguishable from the description of the original. Yes. > Of course, all registration systems are subject to abuse, and there are > certainly mislabeled orchid clones out there. I just find it surprising > that in CP (and most other horticultural categories), the ambiguity is > deliberately built into the system, and not just a result of human failings. I think the problem most people have (in theory) with description-based cultivars is the (wrong) assumption that cloning assures genetic identity. Not even in a single multicellular individual the genetic disposition is by necessity identical in all cells. Each new generation of cells acquires new traits by mutation, and it is not possible to reproduce any living being exactly (i.e. with mutation probability = 0). While the risk of profound genetic change can be minimized by cloning, genetic change cannot be abolished entirely. Thus, it is possible even in a group of clones that a few of them lack features of the original stock. Consequently, if the identity of cultivars was based on cloning or other propagation methods (rather than on defined features), a plant could be labeled with a cultivar name that was originally given to a different plant. In order to prevent such a shift in the meaning of cultivar names, the definition of cultivars according to the current version of the ICNCP was based on the original descriptions and standards rather than on a propagation method. The advantage is a gain in testability that ensures stability. With the cloning concept, one has to rely exclusively on good horticultural practice and good luck with the inheritance of desirable features, without a possibility to check plants in question (without name tags). Actually, all unnamed plants would have to be discarded if there was no possibility to prove that they were clones of named ones. In contrast, the description/standard concept allows all plants in question to be checked against published data any time. Additionally, favourable features (e.g. pest resistance) may be discovered in plants belonging to a named cultivar a posteriori (i.e. after the original description was published), when there is no way to find out whether the favourable features concern *all* individuals of the cultivar or only a subset. In this case it is better to describe a new cultivar based on the new features (so these features are part of the definition of the cultivar) rather than to maintain the old cultivar name in the weak (and no longer testable) hope that all individuals originally had the features and maintained them through cloning. Kind regards Jan ################### From: andreas@wistuba.com Mon Jan 14 09:46:02 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:45:52 +0100 Subject: AW: CPN I'm still waiting for mine (Germany). Bye Andreas -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com] Im Auftrag von nigel hurneyman Gesendet: Montag, 14. Januar 2002 11:55 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: CPN Since I'm still drooling with anticipation, have international members of the ICPS received their CPNs yet or is it just the UK that's waiting? Does anyone in the ICPS know what the holdup is? NigelH Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Mon Jan 14 10:22:47 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:22:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: A *relatively short* comment on cultivar names! Hey Folks, I'm finding this spirited discussion of cultivar names interesting! Please recall two issues 1)The rules regarding cultivar name establishment were not devised by Jan or the ICPS. They are international rules developed by a body of horticulturists. So you may not enjoy some aspects of them, but they are the only rules we have, and the ICPS must abide by them or the entire cultivar nomenclature will descend into even greater chaos. 2)The adoption of these cultivar name rules provides little more or less than a way for us to have a better idea of what the cultivars are that we see in books and catalogues. For example, Nick Romanowski has finished writing a nice little book on Sarracenia cultivation, to be released this summer. I've reviewed the book and found about twenty-five bogus cultivar names. The only information about these names might be a photo with a caption that reads something like, "Sarracenia 'Alien Banana' " etc. What is this plant? Who made it? What are its characters? No one can say. If Nick had followed the cultivar naming rules, a lot of these questions could be answered. Later! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: MKing1@compuserve.com Mon Jan 14 10:29:45 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 13:28:17 -0500 Subject: Photo gallery update Dear All, I hope everyone in the northern hemisphere is looking forward to Spring. There is always something to do in the Autumn so for all you Sarracenia fans out there, feel free to look at my updated photo gallery at: http://www.carnivorousplants.uk.com Enjoy! Best wishes Mike King ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 12:55:37 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 07:55:36 +1100 Subject: CP in Borneo Greetings, Has anyone seen any NON-Nepenthes carnivorous plants in Borneo that can give me fairly specific details on where to see them? I'm especially interested in D. indica and terrestrial Utrics. I'll be there in the month of April. I'm also interested in seeing Nepenthes, so if anyone has some specific info on Nepenthes sites I would appreciate a little help there too. Thanks in advance Regards Greg Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 13:01:34 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:01:32 +1100 Subject: Drosera stolonifera G'day all, Has anyone had success growing any of the Drosera stolonifera sub species from seed? I have had germination before but I have some seed that I really want to grow and I'm not so sure that my previous methods were the best. I offer a small reward to the person who can help me with this ;-) Thanks Greg Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Mon Jan 14 16:52:08 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:18:15 -0600 Subject: Re: U gibba Ah, keep it wet. :) Wayne >Am I the only person to have had U. gibba and killed it? >Anybody care to share tips on how to keep it going? ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Mon Jan 14 17:43:02 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 20:42:48 EST Subject: Re: Cultivars Hey all, Just a few more quick ideas on cultivars. First, with all of the hooplah from myself and others about being very discriminant when creating new cultivars, we should also withhold useless negative comments about new cultivars. In other words, every time a new cultivar is registered, we don't need to hear that someone has seen thousands of better representations of the particular plant, either in the wild or in cultvation. If that was indeed the case, then you should have gone through the registration process yourself. After all, a cultivar is a "cultivated variety!" What good is there in telling everyone you've seen much better examples of a plant, but there is no way for anyone to aquire the material? Second, in order to keep negative comments at a minimum while at the same time ensuring that only superior cultivars are created, we might be able to come up with a "sponsor" system. The sponsor system is entirely voluntary, as the by-laws in which we are working under for cultivars do not call for it. (And we do not want to create any additional work for the tireless volunteer board members if the ICPS!) The sponsor system could work this way. You could send material of a plant to 5 or 10 other growers. (I would ensure that at least a couple of these folks are well known and well regarded.) These people would grow and evaluate the plant material, check characteristics, and determine if it was cultivar grade. If they agreed, their names would appear on the registration entry (or just on the ICPS cultivar webpage for this plant) as sponsors. This would signal that the sponsors grew the material, and also agreed that it was cultivar grade. Again, a totally voluntary system, but it could help lend more credit to your plant as cultivar grade when it is published, and it will keep negative criticisms down. Finally, since two plants with different heritages can be classified as the same cultivar, I would recommend labeling any material in which the heritage is DIFFERENT than the registered plant. If I receive a cultivar of "hummer's hammerhead" and it is of a different heritage than Johns original cultivar, I need to know that. If I create any further crosses with this plant, I would want to ensure I have the parentage correct. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Mon Jan 14 19:31:39 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 22:31:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Cultivars > Hey all, > > Just a few more quick ideas on cultivars. First, with all of the > hooplah from myself and others about being very discriminant when > creating new cultivars, we should also withhold useless negative > comments about new cultivars. In other words, every time a new > cultivar is registered, we don't need to hear that someone has seen > thousands of better representations of the particular plant, either > in the wild or in cultvation. If that was indeed the case, then you > should have gone through the registration process yourself. Mike, I have been in support of everything you have said, so you sound like a kiss-up now. No matter how long you look at mud it will not change into chocolate ice-cream Oh say I cross a S. psittacina x rubra and it may be hideous, should I name it,..I don't think so. Because I write a song does that mean I am Elton John? Delores Wyland is pure mutt material for a named cultivar, why it ever saw the light of tissue culture mass production is beyond me. It just proves how much good material in 2002 we are lacking to put forth such gar-bage. After > all, a cultivar is a "cultivated variety!" What good is there in > telling everyone you've seen much better examples of a plant, but > there is no way for anyone to aquire the material? ...human nature, and we are lacking heavy in our specialty line of plants, way behind with tc and having anything but chaos labeled to cp in general. You can't get the material as our numbers are so limited, and have been since I have been with the hobby in the mid 70's. NO growth, no commercial output unlike almost every other horticultural specialty plant, we are the same as in 1988 or earlier. Stagnant. ..Let me rip open a N. truncata "belly": and show you the half eaten and stinky decaying bugs... (the reason is here) > > Second, in order to keep negative comments at a minimum while at the > same time ensuring that only superior cultivars are created, we > might be able to come up with a "sponsor" system. The sponsor > system is entirely voluntary, as the by-laws in which we are working > under for cultivars do not call for it. (And we do not want to > create any additional work for the tireless volunteer board members > if the ICPS!) The sponsor system could work this way. You could > send material of a plant to 5 or 10 other growers. (I would ensure > that at least a couple of these folks are well known and well > regarded.) These people would grow and evaluate the plant material, > check characteristics, and determine if it was cultivar grade. If > they agreed, their names would appear on the registration entry (or > just on the ICPS cultivar webpage for this plant) as sponsors. This > would signal that the sponsors grew the material, and also agreed > that it was cultivar grade. Again, a totally voluntary system, but > it could help lend more credit to your plant as cultivar grade when > it is published, and it will keep negative criticisms down. ... this is sounds good and I agree, but until a commercial market is developed with the bottom line on profits, making the more desirable species/hybrids a commercially available sought after horticultural market forget it. Profits and large numbers of people seeking stock make things change, not a hand full of hobbyist & botanist around the globe. It just doesn't work that way. For one thing the guy ripping open the pitcher of the N. truncata to gross out everyone around them (including the more mature educated well off woman- the hotspot in the horticultural market, who buys the most plant material- does anyone notice how we are missing many woman from our hobby??? Well, the numbers prove we ain't where we should be!!) couldn't care less with his cultivar of S. flava entitled `Blood spot of My mothers grave. This is a general, but also the type of person that could go to lengths to register such a cultivar. Extreme maybe, but from what I've seen not out of bounds by a long shot. ...You know we can talk about all of this cultivar stuff til the cows come home, bottom line sales equal profits, profits dictate how any hobby, class of plant stock moves. If you don't believe me look at the lowly Hurienas-Stapelia's of the succulent class, they move in production sales, species, hybrids,...most smell bad to awful, but they aren't sold that way off the line. There is a commercial demand for plants, well grown hybrids/species- this dictates more tasteful approach to naming cultivars, though confusion for certain exist. ..This isn't limited to Sarracenia. CPN printed a few pure mules of Nepenthes last year. Plants I hope I never have to deal with as a grower. As we stand now if I offered 500 different cultivars of Sarracenia leucophylla, the true collector would want everyone of them, no matter how bad- you know "I have the biggest collection in the world" list to impress someone, most likely themselves. But with commercial propagation of the plants 497 of these cultivars would die off, and leave the cr\350me of the crop. at any rate until we (USA) propagate and produce commercial levels of cultivar Sarracenia this will remain the same. Once and it will happen people see the beauty of Sarracenia but a bug catchers but as ornamentals the naming process will change rapidly, $$$ speak rounds over what we have now. Mike St. Petersburg Florida > Finally, since two plants with different heritages can be classified > as the same cultivar, I would recommend labeling any material in > which the heritage is DIFFERENT than the registered plant. If I > receive a cultivar of "hummer's hammerhead" and it is of a different > heritage than Johns original cultivar, I need to know that. If I > create any further crosses with this plant, I would want to ensure I > have the parentage correct. > > Michael Catalani > > [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] > ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Mon Jan 14 19:57:47 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:57:01 -0600 Subject: ICPN Article Hello all, I am looking for Bill Carroll's cp tissue culture medium formula. I don't have access to ICPN and would appreciate some help. This is the reference I have: Bill Carroll's media (ICPN v11 n4 12/82 pp. 93-96) If you have this particular issue, could you please either post the formula or email it to me? Thank you. Tom Stubblefied ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Mon Jan 14 21:01:40 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:01:38 -0600 Subject: Orchid registration system

Nick,

<That is irrelevant to my argument.>

Thanks for clarification, but it was rather unclear to me. I used that example to show how Sander's List is messed up. It may not have been as relevant as I thought, but it was still relevant on the regard that orchid registration system is not that perfect. Ask orchid breeders, and you may be surprised how some of them are frustrated about the system. Is RHS trying to make an effort to improve it (a rhetrical question)?

< Regardless of whether a particular orchid hybrid is registered as Epidendrum Orchid Jungle or Encyclia Orchid Jungle, you still (theoretically) know that all E. Orchid Jungle plants have the same parentage, and furthermore, that all E. Orchid Jungle 'Big Flower' are exactly the same clone.>

Small nitpicking: the abbreviation for Encyclia is, Enc., not E. This is a strictly horticultural invention, though. Anyway, how about somaclonal variation? Why do we see so many sports of Blc. Mem. Helen Brown 'Sweet Afton' AM/AOS? Do you know how some clones of Phal. Golden Peoker that are parents of "black" Phalaenopsis showed up through "cloned" populations of 'Brother'?

And if I use the example of vini color Paphs you mentioned, can you be certain all vini color Paph. Maudiae are really Paph. Maudiae, but not a hybrid of Paph. callosum 'Jac,' that may or may not be Paph. callosum? Depending on year, Cattleya harrisoniae was treated as a variety of C. loddigesii by Sander's List. Are we sure all "putative" hybrids of C. lodigesii are in fact hybrids of C. loddigesii? There are varieties of Paph. philippinense most notably, roebelinii. Are we all sure Paph. St. Swithin out there were made with philippinense, not roebelinii?

How about Enc. Orchid Jungle itself? I am not sure if Enc. parviflora is recognized by RHS, but just assume it has not been. Since this is a "variety" of Enc. alata, Enc. parviflora x Enc. phoenicea may be treated as Enc. Orchid Jungle. I often hear when somebody made a remake of old cross, it really did not turn out to look like "the first" batch (e.g., Paph. Peachy). I heard something similar about one of Phrag. bessae hybrid, too.

Or how about dubious clones of a species? There have been some nasty rumor regarding Cattleya walkeriana 'Pendentive.' AM/AOS. Are we that sure if it is really a "pure" species, not a hybrid? And you know it has been extensively used. There is even one on your web page!

Sander's List stopped listing varieties and cultivar names for registration for some time, so, in some case, you aren't so sure what you have. One more example you may be aware is, Ondontglossum hybrids registered in the beginning of breeding. Some times they didn't even list parentage, and it was accepted at that time. And I can go on and on. It is a fair system, but I don't think as robust as you (want to) think.

<you can still be fairly confident that two divisions of E. Orchid Jungle 'Big Flower' are the same plant,>

It is just a matter of "confidence level," I guess. If I see the plant divided in front of me, yeah, but if it is from some notorious place like The Orchid XXXXX, nah.

<even though in the orchid system the clonal name 'Big Flower' is informal.>

Informal?

<If I understand the CP cultivar registry correctly, you have no way of knowing whether two plants of Sarracenia 'hypothetical cultivar' are actually the same clone, or even the same hybrid.>

That may be very well correct, I think. But there are ways to test to do this since you wrote there is "no way of knowing......." I am not one, but ask a plant genetist. Of course, it is very nice if we can prevent this from happening to begin with.

<the ambiguity is deliberately built into the system, and not just a result of human failings.>

But then again, there is an ample room for ambiguity in orchid registration system. It's not that stringent. Don't you remember the recent fiasco on Cattalasia Premire? It was a prt of human "failings," but it showed how fragile it can be.



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################### From: hyattenterprises@earthlink.net Mon Jan 14 21:19:43 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:46:53 -0700 Subject: Tucson Orchid Society meeting with Alfred Lau Hi, everybody - Reference Dr. Alfred Lau. We got him here in Tucson this coming Wednesday at the Orchid Society. This will be a real treat for us, and since the email we got from Ed Read didn't mention this, I thought people might like to know. Plenty of room at the meeting, but since we had nearly 300 attendees last meeting, if you want to come you might want to get here early for the 7:30 kick off. Usual meeting place at the Tucson Bridge Club. Dave Hyatt [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Mon Jan 14 21:19:55 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 00:19:36 -0500 Subject: Re: U gibba At 11:25 PM -0800 1/13/02, Andy Falshaw wrote: > >I was tempted to buy some utricularia gibba on ebay today but since it >>is reportedly so easy to grow, > >Am I the only person to have had U. gibba and killed it? You may be, are you sure it was gibba? ;) Seriously, I've killed some easy plants myself, though not U. gibba in particular. I got through the hard part of growing U. intermedia, but lost it to algae in the Spring, & the poor D. rotundifolia I got in May of 2000 never had a chance, so don't feel too bad. >I've not seen it in any local collections lately, so maybe it isn't >that easy to keep going. Anybody care to share tips on how to keep >it going? Water conditions, container size etc? I've only had mine for a month or so, but it seems to be happy. I have 3, 10-Gallon aquariums side-by-side on a shelf. Each one has a dual-tube fluorescent fixture with (2) daylight-balanced F15-T8D* bulbs. 2 of the aquaria are 2 thirds covered with plexi & filled with potted CP. I keep about an inch & a half of water in the bottom, though the level probably varies from 3 quarters of an inch to 2 inches. I dumped some U. gibba into the water between the pots & it's been doing well. HTH, -Kit *F15-T8D translates to "_F_luorescent bulb _15_ Watt _T_ubular _8_ Eighths of an inch in diameter _D_aylight color balance, in case I'm not the only obsessive person on the list. -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: gbwong@mindspring.com Mon Jan 14 22:11:04 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 01:10:56 -0500 Subject: BACPS Meeting on February 2 For those in the San Francisco area, there will be a BACPS meeting on February 2. Meeting: Bay Area Carnivorous Plant Society Time: 12:00 Noon Location: Randall Museum, San Francisco Program: Alfred Lau: "Mexican Pinguicula" ################### From: weststar59@yahoo.com Mon Jan 14 23:56:10 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:56:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: tuberous sundew seddlings I have a question on D. Auriculata seedlings. I planted them in august and they are about 1/2 inch across now. They do not seem to be growing fast for a seasonal plant. The photoperiod is 15.5 hrs, florescent, in a terrarium with a soil mix of 1:1 peat sand with maybe a little more sand. They are in a gallon pot and the soil is kept wet, but not too wet. Should I just dry them out after 7 months or what? Thanks Gene Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ################### From: jpdelx@club-internet.fr Tue Jan 15 01:45:31 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:43:19 +0100 Subject: Astuce... Bonjour @ tou(te)s Pour ceux qui utilisent des enrouleurs (ou la barre de traction) pour enrouler les lignes, j'utilise des attaches de skis (sangle avec du velcro) pour 'bloquer' les fils ?? la fin. C'est mieux qu'un elastique et actuellement on en trouve dans tous les magasins de sport (D4 par exemple) @LPF -----[ Expediteur ]----- Jean Philippe DELCROIX 139 avenue DAMPIERRE 59300 VALENCIENNES - FRANCE mailto:jpdelx@club-internet.fr http://perso.club-internet.fr/jpdelx ################### From: philmann@geo.net.au Tue Jan 15 07:09:17 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:47:00 +0800 Subject: >Since I'm still drooling with anticipation, have international members >of >the ICPS received their CPNs yet or is it just the UK that's waiting? >Does anyone in the ICPS know what the holdup is? >NigelH Wouldn't it be nice for a change to be able to read it "first". Still waiting for mine, but then we are "Down Under". Phill Mann West Aust. ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Tue Jan 15 08:35:49 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:33:02 -0700 Subject: Cultivars - S. 'Green Rosette' I have a question regarding one of John Hummer's cultivars in the new CPN. For S. 'Green Rosette' it says: "This cultivar name applies to anthocyanin-free clones of Sarracenia psittacina." Further on it says that it "should be propagated either vegetatively, or by crossing two anthocyanin-free Sarracenia psittacina parents" - so seed is okay in this case. A couple years ago I purchased some seed from Phil Wilson for antho-free psittacina that he called "Green Mutant." So does this mean that I should change the name of my plants to 'Green Rosette'? John Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 PS note to Hideka Kobayashi: can you change your e-mail setting to "plain text" or something like that? We're getting a bunch of code and stuff with your messages that makes it hard to read. I'm sure what you're saying is useful, but usually I end up just skipping over most of it. :-( ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Tue Jan 15 08:39:17 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 08:39:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Guinness Records Hey Folks, Thanks for contacting me with information about plant collections. This is what I ultimately sent to Guinness Records. If, in the future, any of you decides that you have a larger collection than D'Amato, I suspect you should go to guinnessrecords.com and find out how to register your "record". Later Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Hi Kim, Sorry I haven't gotten back to you before. Here is what I can say about the largest collection of carnivorous plants. I've polled a number of horticultural institutions in the world, and found that even the largest do not seem to measure up to the sizes of the largest private collections. Horticultural instutitions just don't have the maniacal dedication that private horticulturists have (alas, heh heh). I've queried the largest carnivorous plant listserve, and have concluded two facts. 1)It is EXTREMELY difficult to quantify what is meant by the "largest" collection. Is a collection with 500 separate plants, each of a different species, larger than a collection of 600 identical plants? This is made even more complex in horticulture when there might easily be 30 noteworthy races of a single species in cultivation (i.e. deeply veined, lightly veined, all red, a little red, etc). 2)My query of horticulturists was woefully incomplete. I wouldn't be hugely surprised to discover that some quiet, very private horticulturist in South Carolina (This profile is entirely fictional, and equally entirely plausible) has over the years amassed a huge collection and may be unknown to the rest of us well-connected horticulturists! 3)Peter D'Amato's collection is, probably about as large as they come. I haven't been able to find anyone with a larger collection! I hope this is of help to you. Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Lacey Kim wrote: ################### From: miguelporto@mail.telepac.pt Tue Jan 15 10:27:05 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 17:25:18 -0000 Subject: Have gemmae for trade Hello to all of you! Time has come for pigmies to produce gemmae! I have the following mature species, plus some that I lost the names, some of which are producing gemmae now, others will do it soon. I would like to trade for other species I don't have. Drosera scorpioides pycnoblasta pulchella 'orange' other assorted pulchellas lasiantha dichrosepala sargentii nitidula nitidula x omissa mannii sp. Lake Badgerup sp.1,2,3,4 (lost the names, some have fat gemmae, other thin) I also have seedlings ("gemmaelings") of D. callistos, sewelliae and closterostigma. So, any pigmy species (not hybrid) not mentioned, interests me! Please email me if interested in trading. Thanks, Miguel ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Tue Jan 15 11:33:16 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:30:22 -0700 Subject: Bad news for US wetlands FYI... in today's New York Times: "Bush Administration Rolls Back Clinton Rules for Wetlands." Some excerpts are below but read the whole article at: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/15/politics/15WETL.html. "The new rules would streamline the approval of certain development projects by giving more of them a green light under a general nationwide permit. That permit authorizes a developer to proceed \227 and avoid levels of scrutiny by the public and federal agencies responsible for resource management \227 if the project is said to have minimal impact on the environment." "Under the changes announced today, developers will not be required to provide a one-for-one replacement for the acreage affected by individual wetlands projects, as long as that goal is met in the broader region." John Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: nelhardt@hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 13:15:54 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:15:52 -0800 Subject: u. gibba Actually, may you be consoled by the fact that I just killed mine. Algae got it. How does one control algae anyway? I have mine in my pond/bog, so I can't replace the water every few days. Snails didn't seem to cut it, do I need to get fish? Thanks for any help. Noah Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: curt.onstott@orst.edu Tue Jan 15 14:38:35 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 14:36:48 -0800 Subject: RE: u. gibba I've heard of people using barley straw to control algae in their ponds. It is supposedly low in nitrogen and phosphorous. The bacteria that break it down pull the N and Phosporous out of the water and deprive the algea. Replacing the water in a pond will result in a worse algea problem within a few weeks because of the dissolved nitrogen in the water. It's best to leave your pond alone and let it turn green for a few weeks in the spring. After the algae bloom dies off the water should stay quite clear. -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 2:16 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Actually, may you be consoled by the fact that I just killed mine. Algae got it. How does one control algae anyway? I have mine in my pond/bog, so I can't replace the water every few days. Snails didn't seem to cut it, do I need to get fish? Thanks for any help. Noah Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: jorge_jesus@aeiou.pt Tue Jan 15 14:53:21 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:55:54 GMT Subject: Looking for Nahalka,J. Hello to all I would like to know if anyone has the contact of the following author: Nahalka,J.;Nahalkova,J.;Gemeiner,P and Blanarik,P. They did some publication of cell suspension of DL Thanks __________________________________________________________ Mensagem enviada pelo Xekmail: webmail gra'tis do AEIOU http://xekmail.aeiou.pt ################### From: mail@drosophyllum.com Tue Jan 15 15:28:16 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:36:42 +0100 Subject: tuberous sundew seddlings Hi Gene & list, During their growing time (winter) tuberous Drosera should be kept at a cool place with strong light but a photoperiod of LESS than 12 hours a day !! They are winter-growing plants !! My Dr. auriculata seedlings will start dieing back during April/May (here in Germany) because of the longer days and incresing temeprature, even if the soil is kept wet. I have some Drosera auriculata growing in a pot with a young Darlingtonia and the plants are kept wet year around and look amazingly healthy. Picture : http://www.drosophyllum.com/Bilder/V03_auriculata01.jpg I also kept a pot of seedlings wet during last summer and (almost?) all of the plants returned this winter. They are now at the beginning of their 2nd growing season Picture : http://www.drosophyllum.com/Bilder/V03_auriculata02.jpg But you can also keep Dr. auriculata like a "normal" tuberous Drosera and let the soil dry out completly during summer. If you live in the northern hemnisphere you should wait some months. good luck Martin ************** I have a question on D. Auriculata seedlings. I planted them in august and they are about 1/2 inch across now. They do not seem to be growing fast for a seasonal plant. The photoperiod is 15.5 hrs, florescent, in a terrarium with a soil mix of 1:1 peat sand with maybe a little more sand. They are in a gallon pot and the soil is kept wet, but not too wet. Should I just dry them out after 7 months or what? Thanks Gene ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Tue Jan 15 18:21:32 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:21:29 -0600 Subject: Poor delores... I'm dying to see this plant... Does anyone have a photo? On 1/15/02 8:08 PM, "cp@opus.labs.agilent.com" wrote: > Delores Wyland is pure mutt material for a named cultivar, why it ever saw > the light of tissue culture mass production is beyond me. ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Tue Jan 15 18:25:40 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:25:38 -0600 Subject: Formmat

John Green:

<Hideka Kobayashi: can you change your e-mail setting to "plain text" or something like that? We're getting a bunch of code and stuff with your messages that makes it hard to read. I'm sure what you're saying is useful, but usually I end up just skipping over most of it. :-( >

I think that's how Hotmail is set up (there may be options, though). I am not sure about "we," but I am aware of this. Go ahead and feel free to skip my message if you feel like. I  scroll whenever I feel. However, I do read most of messages I am interested.



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################### From: kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Tue Jan 15 22:21:13 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:54:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Formmat Hi Hideka: I, too, would appreciate it if you could turn off Hotmail's HTML. Your input is valuable, but almost impossible to read. If you have any interest in this, you should be able to turn it off like this: Just go to the Compose page, and click the Tools button on the upper left of the message text, and then select Rich-Text Editor OFF. -Kit At 6:29 PM -0800 1/15/02, Hideka Kobayashi wrote: >
>

John Green:

>

<Hideka Kobayashi: can you change your e-mail setting to >"plain text" or something like that? We're getting a bunch of code >and stuff with your messages that makes it hard to read. I'm sure >what you're saying is useful, but usually I end up just skipping >over most of it. :-( >

>

I think that's how Hotmail is set up (there may be >options, though). I am not sure about "we," but I am aware of >this. Go ahead and feel free to skip my message if you feel like. >I  scroll whenever I feel. However, I do read most of messages >I am interested.

>
>


Chat with friends online, try MSN >Messenger: Click >Here
-- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Wed Jan 16 00:33:25 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:57:17 +0100 Subject: Re: Cultivars - S. 'Green Rosette' Dear John, > A couple years ago I purchased some seed from Phil Wilson for antho-free > psittacina that he called "Green Mutant." So does this mean that I should > change the name of my plants to 'Green Rosette'? Only if your plants are indistinguishable from the described cultivar. Kind regards Jan ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Wed Jan 16 01:29:31 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 04:29:14 -0500 Subject: seeing is believing Hi everyone-- After hearing about the dread Sarracenia cultivar "Dolores Wyland," I'm curious to see just how hideous the thing is, and why it stands as the lone example of what is wrong with freely describing and naming cultivars. Does anyone have a picture they could send me? BTW, Dolores Wyland was named volunteer of the year (2001) by the Atlanta Botanical Gardens. I don't know why I felt compelled to share that information, but I think the phrase "You oughta be ashamed" has something to do with it. Gary Kong garkoinsf@netscape.net -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: nelhardt@hotmail.com Wed Jan 16 07:20:37 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:20:35 -0800 Subject: d. x obovata & 'ivan's paddle' pics Hi All, I got a horrible pic of the d. 'ivan's paddle' (or whatever it's called) back and posted them in case anyone was interested. I also posted a bad pick of d. x obovata for comparison. Here are the URLs: http://www.spacetowns.com/binata/obovata.jpg http://www.spacetowns.com/binata/paddle.jpg I took what I hope is a better photo them and hope to get it up within a few weeks. -Noah Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: moper@libero.it Wed Jan 16 08:12:09 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:12:06 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pics_and_info_on_the_Net.?= Hi all, I put on the Net some pictures of Australian CPs and a revised guide for Terrarium construction. I hope to complete the section dedicated to Cooled Terrarium within a few days. The url is: http:/digilander.iol.it/westaustralia/ Cheers, Cristiano -Genova,Italy- ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Wed Jan 16 08:42:15 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:39:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Cultivars - S. 'Green Rosette' >Dear John, > > > A couple years ago I purchased some seed from Phil Wilson for antho-free > > psittacina that he called "Green Mutant." So does this mean that I should > > change the name of my plants to 'Green Rosette'? > >Only if your plants are indistinguishable from the described cultivar. > >Kind regards >Jan My confusion comes from the way the article is written - it sounds like 'Green Rosette' should include ALL antho-free psittacinas. I understood that to mean regardless of size or shape differences, which I don't think were detailed in CPN. I'm not trying to complain about the cultivar name or the process (ie. the recent discussion), just in need of some clarification. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Wed Jan 16 09:00:21 2002 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:53:14 -0800 Subject: Re: Help with Cultivar Name >I have seen the plant a lot and here is my latin: drosera x 'corynogemmata', which means, "club-like jewel". It is even more sparkly than the regular x obovata, also more robust I think, really a very very beautiful plant overall. One of my favorites. Noah Hi Noah and all, Call it what you like, just be careful not to get yourself in trouble:-) Good job starting it invitro via leaf tissue Noah. I hope that will help spread this beautiful plant around. Ivan "the paddle man" http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: smak_420@hotmail.com Wed Jan 16 10:14:26 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:12:37 -0500 Subject: Pruning N. alata.. and strange ruby red tendrils well, The N. alata i have been urging to put forth a baseal shoot finally has done so.. i had the pot mounted sideways for a few months but set it back recently as i had to make room in the terrerium for various vft's and a N. bicalacarta. i noticed first signs of new growth a few weeks ago and it is coming along nicely (on its third internode). But the new shoot seems to have its own root ball attached to the stem a good inch and a bit below the medium line, so how do i trim the old stem when i decide to cut it back, right above the root ball under the medium (this would probably promote stem rot), at the soil line or an inche or so above? also, i'll be cloneing at every second internode on the sections that have leaves, but almost half of the stem is browned and has developed a type of harder bark and has no leaves at all.. can i do anything with this other than possibly TC? i hate to discard even portions of my cp's if i dont have too. and no i dont think stem tea is something i'd care to try ;> and for part 2) it seems the tendrils of the new sprouts develop into the most amazingly vibrant transglucent ruby red in colour.. it does not appear that pitchers will result, but the plant has concentrated on developing a stunning tendril opposed to an actual pitcher.. i find this puzzling as i have only noticed light shades/splotches of red and only on pitchers on the more mature plant. otherwise its a completely green variety of N. alata. is this normal for young shootlets? is there anything i can do to nertuer this characteristic? is that the corrected spelling for nerteur? we'll find out tommorow, same cp time, same cp channel! thanks ################### From: wouter@fibre.a2000.nl Wed Jan 16 10:35:23 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:30:50 +0100 Subject: American CP-grower hi list, Last September an American commercial grower contacted me to ask if I knew someone who can grow several thousands of VFT's for him. I did say no and deleted the e-mail. I work at a nursery in Holland and my boss told me he wanted to grow some Cp's. He knows I have many contacts about Cp's so he asked me to set up a Cp-nursery. It's my purpose to grow not only the common Cp's but also some rareties. Is anyone recognise the American company described above? Take care, Wouter Noordeloos ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 16 11:23:51 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:23:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Killing U. gibba Hey Kit, Andy, I can meet your shameful claim and do one better---I've managed to kill *both* U. gibba, and U. longifolia. Never killed U. subulata, though. Maybe Peter D'Amato has, but I haven't the skill. :) Barry > At 11:25 PM -0800 1/13/02, Andy Falshaw wrote: > > >I was tempted to buy some utricularia gibba on ebay today but since it > >>is reportedly so easy to grow, > > > >Am I the only person to have had U. gibba and killed it? > > You may be, are you sure it was gibba? ;) ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 16 11:28:17 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:27:55 -0800 (PST) XSubject: Killing U. gibba Hey John, Yep. As long as your plant matches the cultivar description, i.e. no red in the leaves, stalk, flower. But if it makes red flowers (for example), it is not Sarracenia 'Green Rosette'. In this case, it would be an unnamed Sarracenia psittacina, since Sarracenia 'Green Mutant' is not an established cultivar name. Here is an example of the cultivar naming at work---you buy or get Sarracenia 'Green Rosette' and as long as the tag is correct (!) then you know what you are getting. Barry >A couple years ago I purchased some seed from Phil Wilson for antho-free >psittacina that he called "Green Mutant." So does this mean that I >should change the name of my plants to 'Green Rosette'? ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Wed Jan 16 11:30:18 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:28:05 EST Subject: Re: Cultivars In a message dated 1/14/2002 9:35:42 PM Central Standard Time, stovehouse@earthlink.net writes: << Because I write a song does that mean I am Elton John? >> Because I don't like Elton John, does that mean that everyone else wants to hear me name off a thousand other performers who I think are better? <> And why are we lacking it?? For this to change, we need people to be active in creating, not in criticizing. It takes 5-10 years to create a cultivar. It takes 5-10 seconds to blow it off as being inferior to some other plant that is unavailable to everyone else. I'm not kissing off. I am still adamant about cultivars going through some sort of voluntary peer review to make sure there is a concensus on its viability as a cultivar. And I also dont want inferior material being peddled off as an exact replica of a cultivar. But if a plant deserves cultivar status, we just dont need to see a barage of complaints that someone has seen better elsewhere. It does us no good if these "better" plants are unavailable to everyone. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 16 14:02:07 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:02:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: CPN overseas Hey Folks, I'm sorry that there has been such a delay of CPNs to overseas members. We use what is supposedly a very respected company to do our overseas airmail shipping for CPN (and boy, it costs a lot!). Last year we had a strange delay of all our Japanese issues, and shortly after we sent out a second shipment of issues to Japan the original reappeared. This was a considerable cost/blow to the ICPS budget. David Gray, ICPS president, is going to call up our shipping agency and give them some grief. Rest assured, we haven't forgotten about you! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Wed Jan 16 15:08:55 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:08:37 EST Subject: We're looking into the delay in CPN shipment to Europe, Austrailia.... Hello all you ICPS members around the world, I'm back out of dormancy and full of energy for the new year. In response to the people who have commented on not yet receiving the Dec. 2001 issue of CPN, I've spoken with our international shipping company to see what might be responsible for the unusual delay. They are claiming that it is due to newly increased security requirements imposed be the Federal Aviation Administration in the wake of the Terrorist Attacks of September 11th. They did inspect a number of our addresses looking for al Queda cells and suspicious white powders (none were found). They claim that the Dec. issue was put into the European mail systems on Jan. 4th 2002, and therefor should be arriving any day at member's post boxes. If any ICPS member in Europe HAS received their issue, would you please drop me an e-mail saying so, so that I might know that at least some have made it. Also, if anyone HAS NOT received that issue in a country OTHER than Australia or the European countries, please let me know that via e-mail. I will post a further update here when I have more information, or have a resolution to the situation. We will make sure that everyone gets their issues, as we always have. A reminder: this is the time to renew your ICPS memberships for 2002 to avoid delays in receiving your March issue. Membership is now $25 U.S. worldwide, and you may pay by credit card. Its going to be a great year in the CP world! Thanks for your understanding and continued support. Best wishes for a Happy New Year and a good growing season, Cheers, David David O. Gray President, International Carnivorous Plant Society 3310 East Yorba Linda Blvd. PMB # 330 Fullerton, CA 92831-1790 [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Wed Jan 16 16:20:12 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:47:19 -0600 Subject: Re: u. gibba I attributed clear water to hornwort, aka coontail a rootless oxygenator; I usually have a brief green spell in the Spring and then clear water. Last year green water persisted most of the season. I did not grow Eurale ferox which has huge leaves that cover a lot of water. Lots of floating leaves is supposed to keep down algae, and apparently does. I did not have "nasty" green stuff, just some green water and the usual U. gibba. Want more? :) Wayne > How does one control algae anyway? I have mine in my pond/bog, ################### From: nelhardt@hotmail.com Wed Jan 16 17:24:51 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:24:49 -0800 Subject: Re: u. gibba Hy Wayne, I'd love more... I'll let you know when I'm sure my algal bloom is over. The water was relatively fresh at the time - a week or so, so was probably full of nutrients etc.. The few plants of duck weed that came along with the gibba however have now multiplied to the exten that small insects could probably make it across, and I would be surprised if any light makes it down into the water. Thanks again for the offer!! Noah Noah Elhardt cp enthusiast California,USA Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Wed Jan 16 17:48:40 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 01:48:38 +0000 Subject: bill carroll's tc formula/cultivar registration hello, 1. tom--here is the formula: all numbers are mg/liter, numbers by elements should be read as subscripts. CaNO3 1000, NH4NO3 300, KH2PO4 250, MgSO4 250, MnSO4 10, Fe chelate 20, Thiamine 10, Inositol 100,Sucrose 20,000 , Agar 12,000 . for shoot multiplication, Kinetin or 2iP in a range of .5 to 2.0 mg/liter. Auxins for rooting, IBA or NAA in a range of .1 to 1.0 mg/liter. this is explicitly intended for pinguicula, no info is given on its applicability to other genera. many people have found 1/4 strength MS to work well for several genera of cp. i don't know what your goals/resources are but that might be easier than mixing carroll's formula. 2. the big cultivar debate. i think it is worth ignoring one criticism tthat has been advanced, namely that the rules allow for the possibility that a plant that has different genes than cultivar 'x' can be labeled as cultivar 'x' post hoc by anyone, so long as it is "indistinguishable." guess what? this situation holds true in regular taxonomy too! i can label a drosera sp. collinsiae if it looks like collinsiae to me. if you receive sp. botswana from someone, study it, and decide that it keys out to d. madagascariensis, you put that label on it. if you are a botanist in the field, and you come across a pygmy drosera, you will use a key to figure out what it is and then label it. it is only relatively recently that scientists have been able to characterize plants in a more precise way than visually observible traits (namely genes.) so long as cultivars are characterized on the basis of (visually) observable traits, the original objection will apply. yet i think it has little force, because we still characterize most taxa in this way. basically i'm saying that this problem is not a special problem about the cultivar rules, it is a *consequence* of any naming scheme that makes essential reference to visually observible traits rather than genes. as for the "problem" that the rules will allow novices to name lackluster plants as cultivars--who cares? the alternative is a committee which decides what is worthy of cultivar status, and everyone concerned seems to reject that option. (other alternatives are possible, but i don't know what they are. "standards" of some sort? who gets to write the standards, and how is one standard to be chosen over another? "standards" are a comittee in disguise).but more importantly, suppose that a completely banal sarracenia receives a cultivar name. so a page of the cpn is wasted, a small bit of cash is wasted, some time is wasted, and either people want to grow the plant or they don't. this problem seems far less threatening than say, the destruction of wild plants and their homes. --mike Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Wed Jan 16 18:16:51 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:16:48 -0600 Subject: Re: bill carroll's tc formula/cultivar registration Hi Mike, Thanks for looking it up for me. Much appreciated. Take care, Tom ################### From: dand@avci.net Wed Jan 16 18:48:48 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:53:32 -0500 Subject: nepenthes belli size question Hello everyone I followed the groups suggestion for a small nepenthes(posted a couple of months ago), I now am the proud owner of a nepenthes bellii. My two books ( Savage Garden and Nepenthes of Borneo) do not describe the bellii plant. How big do the pitchers get and how big of a diameter does it get. also can I keep it trimmed at about 3 feet tall? Thanks everyone Dan from michigan [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Wed Jan 16 19:14:25 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:14:23 -0600 Subject: CP nursery, cultivar name, TC medium Kit, I was not going to do this ("Nah, it's too much"), but I changed my mind. I may quit Homail since the service has been rather "odd" lately. Wouter, Nurserymens' Exchange, maybe? I used to have some contact, but I lost it. I have copies /data of VFT experiments they asked some TC lab in MN to do. I don't know where I put papers, though. Michael, Do you think ICPS (or some other CP societies) would be interested in type of judging orchid (and other plant) societies are doing? If the judges agree that a particluar clone is worthy of an award, maybe they can grant the owner a right to name the clone. It may be very difficult to come up with judging criteria, but can be done. Of course, people can name whatever they want, but this type of endorsement may give some credibility. Mike, FeEDTA? Myo-inositol? Twelve grams? That sounds awfully lot. The amount of agar used depends on agar quality. Eight grams of agar is "standard." I use even lower amount, 6 g (not necessarily for CPs). Pings may be different from other plants, but I would try the same media w/o PGRs (Plant Growth Regulators) for rooting first. Some plants are almost impossible to root and an addition of PGRs may not change the situation at all. If I am doing this personally, meaning not conducting an experiment, etc, I would try BA (0.5 - 1.0 mg / L) first. BA is cheaper than kinetin or 2iP. Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Wed Jan 16 19:55:32 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:55:22 EST Subject: Re: CP nursery, cultivar name, TC medium In a message dated 1/16/2002 9:20:26 PM Central Standard Time, hkobayashi4@hotmail.com writes: > Do you think ICPS (or some other CP societies) would be interested in type > of judging orchid (and other plant) societies are doing? If the judges > agree > that a particluar clone is worthy of an award, maybe they can grant the > owner a right to name the clone. It may be very difficult to come up with > judging criteria, but can be done. Of course, people can name whatever they > want, but this type of endorsement may give some credibility. > I would say that several of the CP societies would have enough membership and interest in contests. (They may actually do this now. I just dont happen to live close enough to one to attend. I'm going to try to attend the St. Louis group at some point and time. They are the closest.) I just think a voluntary peer review accomplishes two things that should happen in the formation of a cultivar; concensus of quality and making the plant material available to others. You're not asking much of your peers, either. All they have to do is to grow another plant and watch it over some period of time, then give an honest assesment. I did attend an orchid show and judging contest here in Memphis last summer. Thats where I came up with my "negative comments" remark. These guys were brutal in their comments about other growers behind their backs. Growing plants is supposed to relieve stress in ones life. These guys needed an intravenous feed of a strong dose of Prozac. All of this is supposed to be fun. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Wed Jan 16 19:57:51 2002 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:57:50 -0600 Subject: Re: TC medium Hideka, Thanks for the update on the TC formula. It is always helpful receiving advice from someone more experienced. BTW, your post is much more readable sans the HTML tags. Take care, Tom ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 17 03:04:55 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:28:49 +0100 Subject: Re: cultivar names Dear Hideka & al., > peer review to make sure there is a concensus on its viability as a > cultivar.> > > Do you think ICPS (or some other CP societies) would be interested in type > of judging orchid (and other plant) societies are doing? An ICRA (NB: the ICPS is the ICRA for cultivated cps) is not entitled to do so. We can *record* awards in the International Register, but we cannot award anything. This is one of the rules in the game. The other rule is we must register everything that is described in conformity with the Code, irrespective of quality. This does not mean that there cannot be quality control for cultivars. It just means the ICPS cannot do this job for cp cultivars. I would actually appreciate efforts to judge and to review cp cultivars (hint: there is a journal that would publish quality standards, I know the editors). Kind regards Jan ################### From: baalke@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Thu Jan 17 10:39:29 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:39:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Guinness Records > you > should go to guinnessrecords.com and find out how to register your > "record". > Hey, thanks for the reference. I just registered a record (not related to carnivorous plants), and Guinness called me back this morning. The new record I submitted will appear in 2003 book. Ron Baalke ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Thu Jan 17 11:07:25 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:57:40 -0500 Subject: RE: Guinness Records Hey Ron, You have to tell what the record is for! Don't just dangle the carrot man, tell us! Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Ron Baalke Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 1:45 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP > you > should go to guinnessrecords.com and find out how to register your > "record". > Hey, thanks for the reference. I just registered a record (not related to carnivorous plants), and Guinness called me back this morning. The new record I submitted will appear in 2003 book. Ron Baalke ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Thu Jan 17 11:12:26 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:02:36 -0500 Subject: bare-root VFT's Hey everybody, I need about 3 dozen bare root VFT's for an elementary science fair I'm teaching. Any of you have that many for sale? They must be commercially propagated and big enough to pot up and send home with a kid. I have small Nepenthes plants to give them, but I would like them to have a VFT as well. Please contact me off list. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: baalke@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Thu Jan 17 11:48:33 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:48:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Guinness Records > > > Hey Ron, > > You have to tell what the record is for! Don't just dangle the carrot man, > tell us! > I didn't mention it because it was a little off-topic. The new record is for the least dense solid: aerogel. Guinness already lists aerogel as the least dense solid at five ounces per cubit foot. We've made a version of aerogel that is even less dense than that, so Guinness will be updating the entry. We are using aerogel on the Stardust spacecraft, which was launched into space 3 years ago. The spacecraft will use the aerogel to collect comet particles from Comet Wild 2 in 2004 when it flies through the comet's coma. The collected particles, embedded in the aerogel, will be returned back to Earth in 2006 for analysis. See here for more info on this website I've setup: http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/tech/aerogel.html http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/photo/aerogel.html Now, to get this discussion back on-topic, I've wondered if aerogel could be used to build a greenhouse to grow carnivorous plants in. Not only is aerogel extremly light, but it is an excellent insulator. In fact, we've used aerogel as insulation inside the Mars Pathfinder rover to help keep it warm in the extremely cold temperature on the surface of Mars. Aerogel also is opaque, and would diffuse light, which is another good characteristic for a greenhouse. There are however, a couple of major obstacles in using aerogel. It is very expensive to make and has to be made in a laboratory. It is also very brittle, and probably would not hold up too well in the elements outdoors. Ron Baalke ################### From: venusflytrap@bushinternet.com Thu Jan 17 12:01:26 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:54:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CPN Shipping Agency and David Gray`s friends For all those who can remember and were not drunk at the plant auction during the last World Conference in San Francisco. David Gray took the auction and to anyone that thought of bouncing a cheque on the CPS, he said the following. "I have some friends who permanently live in leather" Perhaps David could send some of his friends around to the CPN shipping agency. Regards David Ahrens London ################### From: mindmaze@msn.com Thu Jan 17 14:28:26 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:28:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Guinness Records...aerogel >From what the page says, it looks like aerogel would be perfect for insulation in a greenhouse. just stick it between two panes of glass, and it would probably last a while. You would still need to produce it cheaply and effieceintly, but, given enough time, I'm sure that someone will be able to make it profitable for greenhouses... or maybe its wishful thinking. Just a thought. Joel [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jtreadwa@cox.net Thu Jan 17 18:12:09 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:13:27 -0600 Subject: Change of E-Mail address My E-Mail address has changed from Jtreadwa@home.com to jtreadwa@cox.net. How do I resubscribe? Thanks, Kent Treadway [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Thu Jan 17 18:28:08 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:28:04 -0600 Subject: Daniel Rudd Anyone know of any individuals or nurseries with a Daniel Rudd sarracenia cultivar? I live in the U.S. Thanks! Blake Harris ################### From: insecttrap@hotmail.com Thu Jan 17 19:11:18 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:11:16 -0500 Subject: Steve Smith's 1982 CPN article Steve Smith mentioned in his 1982 CPN article 'Cultivating the orchid flowered butterworts', that if interested in obatining P. lilicina or parviflora, etc. that individual should contact W.I.P Po Box 303, Grant, FL. 32949. Does anyone have Steve Smith's email or know who or what WIP is and what happend to them? As you may have noticed, I am looking to obtain P. lilicina or parviflora. Any info, please let me know. P.S. I must thank Pete Thiel at the ICPS for creating and updating the various indexes on the ICPS website. They have been very useful. Thanks, Michael Manna Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Thu Jan 17 19:24:30 2002 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 21:24:28 -0600 Subject: Judging Michael, I have done seven or eight orchid judgings (maybe a little more) at Great Lakes Region Supplement Judging Center in Cincinnati, and have been a clerk for twice (thrice?) at shows. It is not really a "judging contest" per se, but I know what you are talking about. There's so much politics, no doubt. But what people do at some regional Judging Center, etc. may differ from others even if it is an official AOS judging. Besides, giving ribbons and granting awards (judging) are two separate procedures. Plants are on tables, and each member nominates at Cincinnati Judging Center. The names of owners are kept anonymous (even if we have some idea, especially if you saw somebody brought in the plant). Even plants at shows should remain anonymous for judging purposes after pulled off. An actual judging goes like this: Each groups consisting of several people (including student judge, probational judge, emeritus judge, etc) picks up a plant at a time. Some people check records on species, greces, and cultivars using AQ (Awared Quarterly), books, etc, and discuss. If the specific cultivar/clone is deemed worthy of an award, we score the plant for, flower size, flower color, flower quality, texture, etc. Then we sum up the number. If the average point of the plant scores more than 75 pts, then they discuss description for the plant like this one " Five dramatically displayed flowers on one inflorescence; dorsal sepal boat shaped; light mustard-color with mahogany splotches........ (description for Paph. sanderianum 'Jacob's Ladder' AM (83 pts.)/AOS)." If there is more than 10 point difference among judges, it is discussed and appropriate actions will be taken. Even if they decide to give a score to the plant, it may still fail to get an award if the score is belowe 75 pts. It's been a while, so my recollection may not be precise. If you do judging, yes, it may not be fun. But there are many people who want to be a judge. I just did not have time to go through training, and spending half a day on weekend in another city. I think it is still fun or a rewarding experience for some. It may be even better if you get tons of awards, and don't do judging at all! Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: seansamia@yahoo.com Fri Jan 18 01:33:34 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 01:33:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mr. Lowrie Sent Me Seed To Distibute For Free & Some Rambling Thoughts Hello listserver and Jan! Everyone that e-mailed me, sorry for the delay. Your seed is on the way. Concerning this new Drosera indica, Mr. Lowrie has sent me seed to distibute for free to people who can grow the new species. Site location: Crossing Falls, Kimberley. I asked Mr. Lowrie if he had any reply to the new species. I'm quoting him here,"At the end of the day mate, my work needs to be 100% accurate and until I can accomplish that, I will release no work on the Indica Complex." That's the only comment he had on the matter. Regarding the letter that Jan had written quite awhile back, WOW!!!, that letter was long. Had to stop midway through it and drink a beer, to get through the rest of it. Jan, you forgot one important thing about taxonomy that you should have told the listserver, politics, my friend. Taxonomists in the same field sometimes don't get along and don't talk to each other, neverless shake hands or eat lunch together. If they could put away their petty bickering, maybe some taxonomy can be achieved. People who recently went to the last big conference in San Francisco can understand that. And only then can reasonable standards be set. Just let common sense kick in. Petiolaris Sean Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jan 18 03:04:46 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:04:44 +0100 Subject: Re: Some Rambling Thoughts Dear Sean, > Jan, you forgot one important thing about taxonomy that you should > have told the listserver, politics, my friend. There is only little (apart from providing more funds for research, which is an entirely different topic) that politicians can contribute to taxonomy. I do, therefore, not consider politics an important thing about taxonomy. > Taxonomists in the same field sometimes don't get along and don't talk to > each other, Perhaps sometimes. I do, however, not know a cp taxonomist I don't get along with or talk to. This does not always mean I agree with all of their ideas (and vice versa). > neverless shake hands or eat lunch together. I did so with most taxonomists I have met so far. > If they could put away their petty bickering, maybe some taxonomy can be > achieved. Although progress in taxonomy can be achieved either way, I am not aware of any significant bickering. Did I miss something? You must not confuse different opinions with bickering. There would not be any progress in science if all people agreed with all previous hypotheses (BTW: There has never been such a general consensus in the past). Describing new species always means outspoken negation of previous hypotheses. If the previous hypothesis was formulated by a different taxonomist, chances are good that at least one person will not like the new hypothesis. This is a situation taxonomists usually are able to deal with in a +/- civilized way. > People who recently went to the last big conference in San > Francisco can understand that. Does that mean that not having been there means being unable to understand it? BTW: I was there. > And only then can reasonable standards be set. You may rest assured that these have been set by reasonable people already, my friend. > Just let common sense kick in. And perhaps a bit of knowledge and reproducible methods. Kind regards Jan ################### From: sundew@hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 05:08:20 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 08:10:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Guinness Records Ron, so, you registered the world record for least dense solid, huh? Hmmm. I wonder if they'd accept submissions for "most dense person"? :) (No, that wouldnt be me!!) I'd always wondered what Guiness Book's standards were. Your submission was obviously a good one but I am sure I have broken a few records myself, like Drosera grower most frustrated by the evil pitcher plant people who ignore Drosera for more "valuable" plants, and similar world records. You think I should contact them?! ;) In all seriousness, I think I'm going to get into Heliamphora a bit more in the near future. SundewMatt ################### From: aj_paton@hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 06:46:33 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:46:19 +0100 Subject: Re: We're looking into the delay in CPN shipment to Europe, Austrailia.... Hi David & list, Just to let you know that I received the December 2001 (Vol. 30, No. 4) Journal in the UK over Xmas. I have a suspicion, however, that I may be a "special case", as I only got round to joining the ICPS in November, & am guessing that perhaps my copy was sent out separately from the main shipment? Regards, A.J. Paton > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:08:37 EST > From: Davidogray@aol.com > To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com > Subject: We're looking into the delay in CPN shipment to Europe, Austrailia.... > Message-ID: <153.7575fd6.297761f5@aol.com> > They claim that the Dec. issue > was put into the European mail systems on Jan. 4th 2002, and > therefor should be arriving any day at member's post boxes. > > If any ICPS member in Europe HAS received their issue, would you > please drop me an e-mail saying so, so that I might know that at > least some have made it. Also, if anyone HAS NOT received that > issue in a country OTHER than Australia or the European countries, > please let me know that via e-mail. ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Fri Jan 18 07:06:41 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:06:31 EST Subject: Re: Steve Smith's 1982 CPN article Michael, WIP refers to "World Insectivorous Plants", a renown nursery that was run by Bob Hanrahan until the mid-to-late eighties, I am thinking. The last location I knew of was Marietta, Georgia. The nursery no longer exists except in our fondest memories(first Nepenthes I got and first D. schizandra), but Bob is still lurking around, possibly on this list. I don't know if he grows Mexican Pings still. I only hear about his accomplishments with Sarracenia on his 40 acre property in Alabama. Hope that helps. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: xfaberman@sprynet.com Fri Jan 18 08:26:49 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:26:34 -0500 Subject: Peer Review Assuming the existence of a "peer review" system of the type that Michael Catalini envisions, what would be the fate of the plants submitted for such review? Would the reviewers get to keep them or would they be returned to the original grower? If, after such review, the plant was deemed not worthy of a cultivar name, would the reviewers destroy their test plants (or at the very least return them to the original grower)? I presume they would. After all, imagine the ill will that would be engendered when the original grower is told, "Well, your plant is not worthy of a cultivar name, but at least some of the reviewers feel that it is worthy of being grown and added to their collections." And, if the plants are to be destroyed, who would certify that they were indeed destroyed? Or, would keeping the plants serve as payment for the services of the reviewer? Also, why would such a system in CP's be more effective than the system in orchids? Orchids have one of the oldest and most rigorous horticultural award systems on earth. Conferring a quality award on an orchid instantly skyrockets the price of the plant and, in many cases, all but guarantees its widespread dissemination through tissue culture. Yet, in spite of this, the orchid awards system has not prevented the widespread dissemination and sale of untold millions of mediocre orchids. Here is but one example of the failure of the "award" or "peer review" system in orchids: For many years, orchidists struggled to produce large, bright, solid pink flowers in the genus Phalaenopsis. About two decades ago, dedicated hobbyists, young commercial growers and young orchid judges, began producing white flowers flushed with pink. The older judges dismissed these as being identical to the "junk" that they had to work with while trying to produce solid pink flowers. Ironically, the younger judges were familiar only with the solid pink flowers, never having seen the "trash" thrown away by the older judges in their pursuit of solid pink flowers. Thus, younger orchid growers were fascinated by these pink-flushed flowers and, for a while, such plants garnered awards and were an immensely popular commercial item. Because of examples such as these, many growers realize that awards systems are often arbitrary and may reflect the personal tastes of the persons doing the judgin! ! ! g much more than they do adherence to hypothetical standards of horticultural superiority or quality. Rufino ################### From: S.Ippenberger@t-online.de Fri Jan 18 08:28:45 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:25:24 +0100 Subject: CPN arrived finally! I had my CPN in the mail yesterday in Southern Germany, Europe. So all Europeans have hope and be patient! Regards Stefan ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Fri Jan 18 08:56:47 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:56:31 EST Subject: Reports of CPN sitings in Europe Hello again ICPS members and everyone, I have had a good number of members in Europe report local sitings of the beautiful Dec. issue of the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter -- this is good news; thank you all. In a few weeks we will check again to see that absolutely everyone in those countries has received their copies. Still in question are the shipments to Australia... Has anyone in Oz got theirs? Please drop me a quick e-mail if you HAVE the Dec. CPN. Thanks, and Cheers, David David O. Gray President, International Carnivorous Plant Society 3310 East Yorba Linda Blvd. PMB # 330 Fullerton, CA 92831-1790 david@carnivorousplants.org [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: strega@split.it Fri Jan 18 12:11:11 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:13:13 +0100 Subject: Utricularia leptoplectra flowering: help! Dear list, I was wondering if anybody has experience with U. leptoplectra. This is a lovely, quite large, violet flowered utric from Northern Australia, terrestrial but which seems to appreciate living submerged. I grow it in a peat/very fine sand mix 10/90. My plant is still quite small, but is now starting producing a flower stalk. That's why I grow it, ok, but I'm very worried: I had this plant several years ago and after producing its really lovely flowers it died. I don't understand if it is an annual or if I simply made some mistake. If it would be annual, maybe removing the flower stalk might help it to survive anymore? Any idea? Thanks in advance and good growing! Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy ################### From: baalke@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Fri Jan 18 12:25:03 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:24:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Guinness Records > > so, you registered the world record for least dense solid, huh? Hmmm. I > wonder if they'd accept submissions for "most dense person"? :) (No, that > wouldnt be me!!) I'm submitting another record for Stardust, the farthest a solar-powered spacecraft has traveled from the Sun. It is actually a record in progress: http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news89.html > I'd always wondered what Guiness Book's standards were. Your submission was > obviously a good one but I am sure I have broken a few records myself, like > Drosera grower most frustrated by the evil pitcher plant people who ignore > Drosera for more "valuable" plants, and similar world records. You think I > should contact them?! ;) I don't know what their standard are exactly. After looking at their 2002 book, they seem to have some silly categories. Anyway, I'm sure their are some records involving carnivorous plants which can be submitted, such as the largest carnivorous plant. Ron Baalke ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Fri Jan 18 12:51:54 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:51:44 EST Subject: What carnivorous plant genus do you like to most? What CP genus do you like the most or you find the most interesting? I set up a poll a few months ago on the very bottom of my website (where many people may or may not have noticed). Please stop by and take a vote! Also, if you've voted before, please don't vote again so it doesn't disrupt the percentages. This poll will help us figure out what CP's everybody enjoys the most. With the exception of Sarracenia and Utricularia, we will try to propagate more of the higher-demand plants. Right now, with 42 votes, Drosera is 2nd place (just under Sarracenia) and Nepenthes and Cephalotus is tied for 3rd! I will post the results on this list. To vote, please go to: www.spacetowns.com/cpbog It is a white box towards the bottom of the page. Thanks!
Owen S.
The CP Bog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Fri Jan 18 14:01:44 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:01:37 EST Subject: Re: What carnivorous plant genus do you like to most? What? Drosera is ahead of Nepenthes? Either Matt is stuffing the ballot box or he is whining for absolutely no reason. There were only 45 votes when I voted, BTW. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA Likes sticky rosetted things and Nepenthes almost equally ################### From: baalke@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov Fri Jan 18 17:02:45 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:02:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Guinness Records...aerogel > > >From what the page says, it looks like aerogel would be perfect for > insulation in a greenhouse. just stick it between two panes of > glass, and it would probably last a while. You would still need to > produce it cheaply and effieceintly, but, given enough time, I'm > sure that someone will be able to make it profitable for > greenhouses... or maybe its wishful thinking. > Well, if anyone is interested, we do have a Technology Transfer office here, and I can put you in touch with them. Ron Baalke ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Fri Jan 18 19:17:28 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 22:17:20 EST Subject: Re: What carnivorous plant genus do you like to most? Yeah, I know...I was surprised the Drosera was beating out the Nepenthes! I set up a simple protective measure, so that people can't vote more than once. However, it isn't 100% fool proof. Let's just hope the votes can be trusted. Last time I checked, 62 people voted and Drosera is now tied with Sarracenia for 1st place! Nepenthes is number 2, down by 1 vote from Drosera. Heliamphora actually has 4 votes (including 1 that's mine). Owen S.
The CP Bog
www.spacetowns.com/cpbog
[HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Fri Jan 18 19:43:37 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:43:35 -0600 Subject: Bickering, orchid judging, etc Sean, Not just taxonomists, but other scientists, and other professionals (physicians, politicians, etc), too. This is called civility. I am afraid sometimes I ignore this. And rightly they do. Scientists are often criticized for too much arguing, but that's what we do. Generally, there is no ill intention, but that can be certainly lead to animosity. However, it is very important to open up a discussion, and encourage critique. Soemtiems, such discussion may seem "bickering" for outsiders, and it cmay be possible that it is in fact bickering. Rufino, Where are you from? I don't think he was saying the system his proposed was any way better than orchid judging, I think. I think this is a bit of over-generalization. Different orchid societies have different standards, and etc. Some may not be that stringent. The judging system of AOS (American Orchid Society) is sometimes criticized for different reasons. With my limited experience with the judging system, I cannot be sure if it is the "best," or the most rigorous. I can certainly attest it is fairly decent, though. I don't have experience in other type of judging, so I don't know if orchid judging is better than others or not. Would you like to share your experience in judging various types of plants? If orchid judging is/was as rigorous as you would like to believe, how come even Utricularia alpina was "judged" by RHS (Royal Horticulture SOciety)? I find some claims that this recognition by RHS indicates that flowers of Utrics are at least as good looking as orchids equally absurd. That really depends on type of an award (quality award vs. cultural award, etc), and the cultivar itself. If the plant is not expected to be tissue cultured or only limited number of tissue cultured plants will be produced, the plant may be sold as "original" division. In this case, it does make a difference. However, people really don't care if plants they are buying are original or not for some type of orchids (Phalaenopsis type Dendrobium, Equitant Oncidiums, etc). If that's the case, having an award does not make much difference. Not always. Aside from orchids that cannot be tissue cultured (e.g., Paphiopedilum), there is some sentiment on mass propagation. By avoiding mass propagation, some cultivars can maintain their premire status. In addition, there is a limited market for some orchids, and as a consequence, receiving an award does not necessarily guarantee "widespread dissemination." Read above. It will be very difficult for you to locate awarded clones of Cattleya species such a C. labiata, C. warneri, C. mossiae, and etc. Yes, it is rather easy to buy awarded clones of C. skinnerii, C. walkeriana, C. aurantiaca, etc, but good clones of unifoliate Cattleya species are very hard to come by. Even C. walkeriana, you don't see that many cultivars. Do you see some of the most famous cultivars such as C. walkeriana ' Feiticeira' around? No. There are many mediocre orchids out there. BUt it is strictly my "humble" opinion. It is still very difficult. German lines are considered to be one of the best. Poeple do not seem to be that interested in this type. This is a change in trend, taste, etc. Phal Ida Fukumura has (had?) been very popular, but the flower is relatively small (around 10 cm), and somewhat old. Zuma Cannyon's (I think) latest catalogue lists Phal Hinamatsuri as one of the best pink from Japan, that was probably regeistered about 20 years ago (1983?). Its parentage is pink x white. One critique I remember was that its color is inconsistent. Again, I don't consider this as a "failure." Simply people's tatste changed over time, and there is nothing we can do. Did this happen in US? I know one time Stewart was doing this line of breeding, but it wasn't all that different. Phalaenopsis breeding (including Doritaenopsis) in US is rather lagged behind Taiwan. Many things from the island are very original and unique (e.g., Phal. Ever Spring King). The subtlety of pastel pink or blush type such as Dtps. Alice Loeb should not be underetstimated, but I don't know if failure to recognize them itself demosntrates a failure of the system. Besides, it is exciting since "new" things or new type of breeding keep appearing in orchids. I don't have that much of a problem with this. Yes, judging flowers can be very subjective. But then again, any type of judging can be very "judgemental." Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: Cokendolpher@aol.com Fri Jan 18 20:15:29 2002 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 23:15:19 EST Subject: status of N. clipeata I was just curious about the status of Nepenthes clipeata in culture. About how many growers are actually working with this plant? Are any larger plants in public gardens anywhere? I noted on the ICPS webpage that they were developing a recovery program to try and maintain this species, at least in cultivation. Can someone give us a report on their progress? James ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 19 07:31:50 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:40:15 -0500 Subject: N. bicalcarata Listserver & Jan, I have been looking through my resources, and find what I have thought for some time to be spines on Nepenthes bicalcarata are refered to as thorns in Dansers monograph and Jeb & Cheeks revision of Nepenthes. I believe F. E. Lloyd simply calls them projections. Peter D'Amato's best selling book, The Savage Garden, calls these projections fangs. L. H. Bailey is the only source I find that calls these features spines. I consider Nepenthes pitchers a part of a leaf formation, which would make spines the correct term to use. Could Jan or another expert help me with the correct terminology? Please? Steve Stewart ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 09:44:55 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 09:37:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: What carnivorous plant genus do you like to most? I went to www.spacetowns.com/cpbog to vote for Nepenthes (I can't let my plant down!). However, when I selected Nepenthes and clicked "Vote" the browser froze! Just a FYI that maybe people are trying to vote but can't! Help! The Nepenthes must beat Drosera! Cpbog@aol.com wrote: Yeah, I know...I was surprised the Drosera was beating out the Nepenthes! I set up a simple protective measure, so that people can't vote more than once. However, it isn't 100% fool proof. Let's just hope the votes can be trusted. Last time I checked, 62 people voted and Drosera is now tied with Sarracenia for 1st place! Nepenthes is number 2, down by 1 vote from Drosera. Heliamphora actually has 4 votes (including 1 that's mine). Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] Ben Rush kwendex@yahoo.com ; ben@mindvision.com "First know what you don't know. The rest is natural" --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: a_bilgri@hotmail.com Sat Jan 19 10:41:36 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:41:33 -0600 Subject: New Member Hello everyone, I'm Alex, a new member of this mailing list. I am currently raising 2 venus flytraps, 2 different kinds of sarracenia, and 1 nepenthes. I am always interested in new plants and wish to learn more about them. Thanks. Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: tnert_80_ca@yahoo.ca Sat Jan 19 13:27:39 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:27:17 -0500 Subject: new member Hey everyone! I'm Trent, I live in Montreal, QC, Canada. I got my first VFT last year, and it died durring dormancy. But i started again early this year and my collection's exploded with 3 Neps, 2 Sarr, 2 Drosera, 2 aquatic Utric, and of course a new VFT :) I've also ordered several seeds from the ICPS, but am having limited success with those so far :/ Oh well, just gotta keep trying! I'm 21 and a University student taking a Bsc Biology, specialization in ecology. I'm only in my first year so far though, so i've got a couple of years before i start applying my knowledge to CP conservation ;) but i look forward to it! Now, i got this one Nepenthese from a garden centre, and from what i can figure, it is either N. coccinea, or N. X coccinea. If anyone could give me clues to confirm it's identity it would be much appreciated. Trent [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Sat Jan 19 14:14:04 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 09:14:02 +1100 Subject: Re: U. leptoplectra Greetings Filippo U. leptoplectra should be a perrenial but after flowering should be dried somewhat. Although I've not seen this species yet in the wild I've seen photos of it in flower when it is submerged under about 10-20cm of water. I would let it flower but pollinate the flowers by hand. I use a tooth pick or an old Drosera flower spike. If the plant dies, you will at least have seed to plant. I don't think that removal of the flower spike will increase plant life by much if at all. Regards Greg Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Sat Jan 19 15:55:16 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 18:55:18 -0500 Subject: S. minor seed from seedbank Is anybody else having any luck with S. minor seed from the seedbank? I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong here, since mine hasn't sprouted after a month. I put it in the refrigerator for a while when I got it, in late Summer or early Fall. Around mid-November, I sowed it on a mix of 70% chopped long-fiber Sphagnum & 30% peat/sand in a covered tray & put it back in the fridge. I took it out in mid-December & stuck it under lights. My other Sarracenia seed that received similar treatment germinated within 2 weeks, but there are only a couple of minor seeds with any green showing, & on closer examination that green turns out to be fungus. The only difference in my procedure between the minor & the other stuff was adding peat/sand to the soil mix when I ran out of Sphagnum. Is that likely to account for the slow germination? Thanks, -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Sat Jan 19 18:31:05 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:30:50 EST Subject: Re: Peer Review <> That would be up to the registrant. However, by spreading some material around for evaluation, you are increasing the plant's distribution in cultivation, which I feel is a critical part of any cultivar. After all, what good is it to have a cultivar registered in which the only specimen ever to have existed is dead. To me, this goes against the entire spirit of the word "cultivar." On one side of the spectrum, we are trying to ensure we dont end up with mass production of a cultivar which never deserved to be such. On the other side of the spectrum, we want to ensure that superior cultivars are obtainable. << After all, imagine the ill will that would be engendered when the original grower is told, "Well, your plant is not worthy of a cultivar name, but at least some of the reviewers feel that it is worthy of being grown and added to their collections." And, if the plants are to be destroyed, who would certify that they were indeed destroyed? Or, would keeping the plants serve as payment for the services of the reviewer? >> Again, this is would be a voluntary system, and ultimately up to the registrant. Even if all the reviewers said the plant was not cultivar material, it could still be registered as a cultivar. But it gives your cultivar a much better standing in general if peer reviewers who actually grow the plant came to the same conclusion. Part of the review process also includes verifying that the characteristics in which the cultivar is based upon are stable. There are going to be some plants which would otherwise be cultivar material, but the characteristics (such as color or a certain shape) do not hold between multiple growers. << Also, why would such a system in CP's be more effective than the system in orchids? Orchids have one of the oldest and most rigorous horticultural award systems on earth. >> I'm not really referring to awards, but a voluntary system to keep the quality of cultivars up to snuff. I think an award system for cp cultivars is a good idea, though. << Conferring a quality award on an orchid instantly skyrockets the price of the plant and, in many cases, all but guarantees its widespread dissemination through tissue culture. Yet, in spite of this, the orchid awards system has not prevented the widespread dissemination and sale of untold millions of mediocre orchids. >> Orchids are different because you're talking about the largest group of flowering plants in the world, with a dedicated growing society to match it in its enormous size. There is a much greater demand for orchids than cp (although I certainly hope this changes.) It's a simple matter of supply and demand. This doesnt matter, though. All we should care about is ensuring that cp cultivars are topnotch. Then maybe some of the orchid critics will point to our group as doing something right, instead of everyone pointing to the orchid group and say we should do it like them. We should find a system that fits our group, keeping in mind that our society is many times smaller than that of other groups such as orchids. << Here is but one example of the failure of the "award" or "peer review" system in orchids: For many years, orchidists struggled to produce large, bright, solid pink flowers in the genus Phalaenopsis. About two decades ago, dedicated hobbyists, young commercial growers and young orchid judges, began producing white flowers flushed with pink. The older judges dismissed these as being identical to the "junk" that they had to work with while trying to produce solid pink flowers. Ironically, the younger judges were familiar only with the solid pink flowers, never having seen the "trash" thrown away by the older judges in their pursuit of solid pink flowers. Thus, younger orchid growers were fascinated by these pink-flushed flowers and, for a while, such plants garnered awards and were an immensely popular commercial item. >> It doesnt sound like the idea was flawed at all. In fact, it sounds like if the idea was followed through the way it had been originally, then the process would have continued to work. Also, there are more than 15,000 species of orchids (15,000 being a conservative number.) Thats a lot to have to deal with. The CP group doesnt have near those numbers to deal with. But it doesnt matter if you are only dealing with 15 species of plants; an experienced grower has an advantage of knowledge of inexperienced growers. This is why I also stated that your peer reviewers should include some experienced growers. Having a list of 10 sponsors listed on your cultivar that have a total of 15 years growing experience is not going to add a lot of credit to your plant's cultivar worthiness. <> Any time a system incorporates someones opinion, it will always be an arbitrary system. But this is why it is so critical when evaluating cultivar prospects. Horticultural superiority can only be gauged by someone's opinion. Well, not just someone, but a group of people. As far as awards as concerned, Hideka mentioned how certain judging criteria can limit opinion. Any time you have a discprepancy in scoring between judges, the judges can compare notes to see if someone missed something. I dont want to make it sound like I am advocating a "select" group of people who do this on behalf of the ICPS. A simple posting on this listserve will likely get all the responses you need. I don't know of too many members who wouldnt be willing to to view cultivars. Also, I am not saying that only highly experienced growers should be allowed to rate the material. Less experienced growers can also be sent material and rate it. They can then communicate with more experienced growers about what they see, and can learn greatly from the experience. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Sat Jan 19 18:40:38 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:40:33 EST Subject: Re: What carnivorous plant genus do you like the most? Just a note...I know I left out Byblis as an option on the poll, but I could only have 10 options. If this is you favorite plant, you can always e-mail me and I'll count up the votes! As of right now, Nepenthes finally is ahead of Drosera! Ben Rush, try to vote again if you haven't already done so. I'm not sure why your browser crashed but it should work since there have been so many votes already. Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Sat Jan 19 18:51:48 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:51:34 EST Subject: Re: What carnivorous plant genus do you like the most? Oh yeah, I just remembered...I also forgot about Darlingtonia! You can also e-mail me if this is your favorite plant! Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 19:05:24 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:05:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: What carnivorous plant genus do you like the most? I voted again. Everything worked fine, thanks. I did a system reboot which appears to work miracles with Windows. I wish everything ran Linux ;-) Anyway, I'm glad to see that Nepenthes was in the lead before I even voted. Thanks for your response and go Neps! Cpbog@aol.com wrote: Just a note...I know I left out Byblis as an option on the poll, but I could only have 10 options. If this is you favorite plant, you can always e-mail me and I'll count up the votes! As of right now, Nepenthes finally is ahead of Drosera! Ben Rush, try to vote again if you haven't already done so. I'm not sure why your browser crashed but it should work since there have been so many votes already. Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] Ben Rush kwendex@yahoo.com ; ben@mindvision.com "First know what you don't know. The rest is natural" --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Sat Jan 19 19:14:19 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:42:47 -0600 Subject: Re: What carnivorous plant genus do you like the most? >I voted again. Everything worked fine, thanks. >As of right now, Nepenthes finally is ahead of Drosera! > Remember, vote early and often! Wayne ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Sat Jan 19 20:03:36 2002 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 20:03:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: What carnivorous plant genus do you like the most? Har har har ;-) Wayne Morrow wrote: >I voted again. Everything worked fine, thanks. >As of right now, Nepenthes finally is ahead of Drosera! > Remember, vote early and often! Wayne Ben Rush kwendex@yahoo.com ; ben@mindvision.com "First know what you don't know. The rest is natural" --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: csvieira@epm.net.co Sun Jan 20 05:02:49 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 08:03:09 -0500 Subject: Tuberous sundews dormancy period Hi, I also have some D.auriculata seedlings (seed from the ICPS seedbank),and would like to know the appropriate dates of dormancy for tuberous sundews in the northern hemisphere. I mean, when should dormancy start and when should it finish.. Happy Growing, Sebastian ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 20 10:18:24 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:26:38 -0500 Subject: Nepenthes belli Hello Dan, Nepenthes belli is one of my personal favorites. It is a fairly slow grower and does not climb as rapidly as some other small Nepenthes because of it's short internodes. This plant has a very compact diameter, I have never seen one with leaf blades over 8" in length (I have never seen one in the wild either). The unusual feature I find in this species is the long tendril length in mature plants, often much longer than the leaf blades. The plants I have seen are flowering size at three feet in height. You should not have any problem getting basal shoots before it becomes this large. I agree with a statement I read on this list (I believe it was Michael Catalani) that this species doesn't do well if moved directionally. It prefers to have a stable spot and not be rotated. The pitchers are small, 3 - 4" is about as big as I have seen them, but the ones I've seen have a nice red color with a bright green peristome and globose shape. Mine do well in large brandy snifter size containers for a year or more. Good luck! Steven Stewart of a nepenthes bellii. My two books ( Savage Garden and Nepenthes > of Borneo) do not describe the bellii plant. How big do the > pitchers get and how big of a diameter does it get. also can I > keep it trimmed at about 3 feet tall? Thanks everyone Dan from > michigan ################### From: venusflytrap@bushinternet.com Sun Jan 20 11:23:28 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:17:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Trent`s VFT killing Actually, it`s compulsory, in order to gain membership to the mailing list, to kill a venus fly trap. You will also have to roll, naked, in a bed of stinging nettles. Regards David Ahrens London PS-Well, er, actually, I made the last one up. Nobody probably read it anyway. ################### From: jgbritt@mac.com Sun Jan 20 11:28:44 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 11:28:28 -0800 Subject: RE: Tuberous sundews dormancy period >I also have some D.auriculata seedlings (seed from the ICPS >seedbank),and would like to know the appropriate dates of dormancy >for tuberous sundews in the northern hemisphere. I mean, when should >dormancy start and when should it finish.. Try to delay dormancy as long as possible by keeping the plants cool. If they go dormant too soon they will not have large enough tubers to survive. They may not have formed any at all! At least for D. auriculata, you don't want them to go dormant any more than they have to. I have plants that have not gone dormant for over a year. There is a picture of them taken in the middle of summer on the ICPS web site: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/species/D_auriculata.htm This page was written in collaboration with members who donated D. auriculata seeds to the seed bank. -- John Brittnacher ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Sun Jan 20 11:33:31 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:02:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Trent`s VFT killing You will also have to roll, naked, in a bed of stinging nettles. >PS-Well, er, actually, I made the last one up. Nobody probably read it >anyway. > Dammit! Now is a fine time to tell me! -Wayne ################### From: Cokendolpher@aol.com Sun Jan 20 11:49:13 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:49:03 EST Subject: re: status of N. clipeata Two people responded directly to me about N. clipeata with somewhat different views. I have copied parts of the letters below to share the information and as points of further discussion. One of the people did not want their identification known, so that others would not write wanting plants. If you are just looking to own the plant see Wistuba's list. Several questions were raised in my mind. First, I would like to know from Wistuba if any of his three different clones mentioned on his 2001 availability are females? From the letter below it appears that they are all males. I assume these in-vitro cloned plants will be available again in 2002. Do Borneo Exotics or Malesiana Tropicals have different clones in preparation? If so, are the sexes known? Are there any females resulting from the F1 seeds sent to the US? We still have not heard from the person heading up the ICPS Clipeata Project. Any comments on the status of your project? Can the only known locality for this plant be purchased? If it was purchased, could it be managed (protected)? If any growers are interested in exchanging information with the person in Germany you can write me and I will forward your letter (at least until the ICPS Clipeata Project leader steps forward). And one finally question, can male and female clipeata be told apart by karyotypes? Regards, James RESPONSE #1 from USA: >N. clipeata is growing in cultivation, mainly because it is not a difficult >plant to grow. There are at least a few larger plants floating around >in the USA, but that will change over the next 5 years as many of the smaller >plants mature. Some of the larger plants being touted as clipeata in cultivation >are hybrids, so you have to be careful. (N. clipeata x ventricosa is one >of them. The pitchers can fool anyone, but the leaves dont look right.) > The plant is absolutely on the verge of extinction in the wild, and it >does not grow in a protected area. RESPONSE #2 FROM GERMANY: >Here in Germany are a couple of the very last N. clipeata in cultivation. >This means plants collected in the wild as plants 25 or 30 years ago, cuttings >from that plants and in vitro propagated plants. Unfortunately most of the remaining >plants seem to be males; one female died in the Bot. Gardens of Munich some >years ago, one in my hands last summer. The Munich plant was the mother plant >of all the seed distributed to the USA and A. Wistuba. I got my female in very, >very poor conditions nearly without roots, scales and spider mites on it. The >leaves were yellow. Not to save. > >So I have left some adult plants (very impressive!) I was told to be males >and Andreas Wistubas clones 1 + 3. I will get another plant of genetically >different origin in about 6 weeks. > >If you know anybody growing that lovely plant too I would be VERY interested >if you could bring me in contact. My aim is to get seed again before the plant >is extinct completely. > >It is late for N. clipeata, but not too late! ################### From: sundew@hotmail.com Sun Jan 20 12:25:33 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:33:39 -0500 Subject: fernando's phone # hi friends, sorry to post this to the list but please email me PRIVATELY if you have fernando's phone number. thanks, sundewmatt ################### From: Tigre04@aol.com Sun Jan 20 17:25:23 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:25:15 EST Subject: CONDENSATE ON TERRARIUMS Hey Hans, It might be a little too late to answer your question about condensate on terrariums since I just recently got my comp from the shop, but I have been using aluminum foil as reflectors for a while now and they have worked perfectly fine. The condensate doesn't seem to be a big deal on my terrariums. Maybe at night or whenever the lights go off in your terrariums the condensate will gradually get worst and worst but to me that doesn't seem to be a big deal because the show starts when the lights are on. So, what I'm trying to say is that whenever the lights come on the condensation will disapper. Good Luck, Paul [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: K.Cook@bom.gov.au Sun Jan 20 18:39:57 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:09:32 +0930 Subject: Drosera petiolaris Does anyone have information on growing from leaf "cuttings" Drosera petiolaris, D. falconeri and the hybrid of these two species? Cheers, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: mr30@st-andrews.ac.uk Sun Jan 20 18:58:25 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 02:59:48 -0000 Subject: Re: Tuberous sundews dormancy period John, > At least for D. auriculata, you don't want them to go dormant any > more than they have to. is a 12h fotoperiod too long, i.e. will it force them into dormancy? Marcus ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Sun Jan 20 18:59:16 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:59:06 EST Subject: Re: What carnivorous plant genus do you like the most? Actually, you got the "vote early" part right, but not the "vote often"! I hope nobody is voting more than once! Wayne Morrow wrote:.... >Remember, vote early and often! >Wayne Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tfw@dol.net Sun Jan 20 19:10:13 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:53:39 -0800 Subject: New member and judging opinions Hello everyone, I am cp 12 year old grower in Maryland and my "highly extensive" collection of plants contains two VFTs, two Sarracenia purpurea ssp. venosa, and one unidentified Sarracenia which I believe is a S. minor. It is unidentified because it was being sold as a VFT among some real VFTs. It was only $2.50, what a steal!! I have several opinions as for the topic of plant judging. If there were judging open to the public, it would earn cps more recognition and as such more power in land conservation. Money made by raffles, admission, ect. of these could also go towards the conservation of the species. This would also make it easier to get grants for researching cps in there natural habitats. Cps may even be as recognized as orchids or african violets. Sincerely, Tristan Werner ################### From: tfw@dol.net Sun Jan 20 19:30:29 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:15:16 -0800 Subject: VTF killings Hello everyone, I better post this now that I know its "mandatory". To date I've killed a grand total of three VFTs. This was before I knew about distilled water. ################### From: CMcdon0923@aol.com Sun Jan 20 21:05:20 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:05:15 EST Subject: Sarracenia arrangement..... Since all the plants in the greenhouse are well into their winter slumber, I just thought I'd share a few pics of an arrangement I keep in my study....kinda nice to look over every once in a while and see some nice fresh vibrant pitchers. If the URLs wrap to a new line, make sure you cut/paste the whole thing. The first URL goes to the parent folder...... http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/cmcdon0923/lst?.dir=/Carnivorous+Plants&.src=ph& .view=t http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/cmcdon0923/vwp?.dir=/Carnivorous+Plants&.src=ph& .dnm=CP+Arrangement.....jpg http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/cmcdon0923/vwp?.dir=/Carnivorous+Plants&.src=ph& .dnm=Close-up.jpg But the best part is.....they're artificial !! Sincerely, Craig McDonald Frisco, Texas ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Sun Jan 20 21:29:38 2002 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:29:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: What carnivorous plant genus do you like the most? Well, there's no way that I could have voted often since the first time crashed IE. Cpbog@aol.com wrote: Actually, you got the "vote early" part right, but not the "vote often"! I hope nobody is voting more than once! Wayne Morrow wrote:.... >Remember, vote early and often! >Wayne Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] Ben Rush kwendex@yahoo.com ; ben@mindvision.com "First know what you don't know. The rest is natural" --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: andreas@wistuba.com Sun Jan 20 23:12:30 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:12:42 +0100 Subject: AW: status of N. clipeata Hello, I currently have 3 true clones of N. clipeata in vitro: Clone 2, clone 3 and clone U. I have another clone ex vitro only (clone 1). The problem with these seeds was that they were mixed with hybrid seeds and most seedlings turned out to be hybrids. I had to wait quite a while with sales of these plants therefore, to make absolutely sure, I only sell true plants. I do not know the sexes of my clones yet, but I encourage everybody who received plants from me in the past, to keep the clone label, in order to minimize confusion and to clarify this ASAP. >From the mail you cite below,... " >So I have left some adult plants (very impressive!) I was told to be >males and Andreas Wistubas clones 1 + 3. I will get another plant of >genetically different origin in about 6 weeks. " ... I do not understand that the writer has determined the sexes of my clones, but rather that he/she has a few males _plus_ two clones from me. I'd be very surprised, if anybody would already have flowering sized plants from my clones in such a short time. There might be a very small chance that there are more clones in vitro with other growers as for a few clones apparently it is not yet 100% sure whether they are hybrids or not (you can keep plants in seedling stage for many years in vitro). My offer regarding the ICPS-project was, to propagate plants for free in my lab for bringing them back to the wild, if anybody involved with wildlife protection organizations can do the organizing and legal stuff. My offer still stands. However, knowing Indonesian buerocracy a bit, I doubt that it will be easy to get this done. Anyway, before even thinking about a start for such a project, a few questions have to be answered: - In which state is the habitat at Kelam? - How big is the remaining population (females left? Males)? - What are the sexes of the in-vitro clones? - How could the plants brought back to Kelam could be protected from collection? - How safe is the remaining habitat from destruction? - Could it be protected? Bye Andreas -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com] Im Auftrag von Cokendolpher@aol.com Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Januar 2002 20:54 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: re: status of N. clipeata Two people responded directly to me about N. clipeata with somewhat different views. I have copied parts of the letters below to share the information and as points of further discussion. One of the people did not want their identification known, so that others would not write wanting plants. If you are just looking to own the plant see Wistuba's list. Several questions were raised in my mind. First, I would like to know from Wistuba if any of his three different clones mentioned on his 2001 availability are females? From the letter below it appears that they are all males. I assume these in-vitro cloned plants will be available again in 2002. Do Borneo Exotics or Malesiana Tropicals have different clones in preparation? If so, are the sexes known? Are there any females resulting from the F1 seeds sent to the US? We still have not heard from the person heading up the ICPS Clipeata Project. Any comments on the status of your project? Can the only known locality for this plant be purchased? If it was purchased, could it be managed (protected)? If any growers are interested in exchanging information with the person in Germany you can write me and I will forward your letter (at least until the ICPS Clipeata Project leader steps forward). And one finally question, can male and female clipeata be told apart by karyotypes? Regards, James RESPONSE #1 from USA: >N. clipeata is growing in cultivation, mainly because it is not a >difficult plant to grow. There are at least a few larger plants >floating around in the USA, but that will change over the next 5 years >as many of the smaller plants mature. Some of the larger plants being >touted as clipeata in cultivation >are hybrids, so you have to be careful. (N. clipeata x ventricosa is >one of them. The pitchers can fool anyone, but the leaves dont look >right.) > The plant is absolutely on the verge of extinction in the wild, and it >does not grow in a protected area. RESPONSE #2 FROM GERMANY: >Here in Germany are a couple of the very last N. clipeata in >cultivation. This means plants collected in the wild as plants 25 or 30 >years ago, cuttings >from that plants and in vitro propagated plants. Unfortunately most of >the remaining >plants seem to be males; one female died in the Bot. Gardens of Munich >some years ago, one in my hands last summer. The Munich plant was the >mother plant of all the seed distributed to the USA and A. Wistuba. I >got my female in very, >very poor conditions nearly without roots, scales and spider mites on >it. The leaves were yellow. Not to save. > >So I have left some adult plants (very impressive!) I was told to be >males and Andreas Wistubas clones 1 + 3. I will get another plant of >genetically different origin in about 6 weeks. > >If you know anybody growing that lovely plant too I would be VERY >interested if you could bring me in contact. My aim is to get seed >again before the plant >is extinct completely. > >It is late for N. clipeata, but not too late! ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Sun Jan 20 23:44:23 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:49:17 +0600 Subject: re: status of N. clipeata Hello James, I see you've stimulated quite bit of interest! After Ch'ien Lee's excellent talk at the last ICPS conference during which he outlined the alarmingly critical wild conservation status of N. clipeata, a few people got together for an informal discussion, during which they pondered ways we might be able to help through a program of artificial propagation. It would seem from information given by Ch'ien (who is possibly the most recent visitor to N. clipeata habitat) that there seems little hope of maintaining a sustainable population of this species in the wild, at least for the foreseeable future. The reasons for this are too numerous to go into detail here, but have to do with factors such as natural or man-made fires; over-collection throughout the years and also the perception of some of the local people that they can collect and sell this plant to the few foreigners visiting the area. CITES regulations whilst quite stringent in word, have sometimes failed to provide sufficient deterrent to smuggling, especially in the era before artificially propagated plants became available in trade from legally obtained sterile cultures. In my opinion, this particular species is so far not yet inexpensive or available enough in trade to have a great impact on illegal collection from habitat. During the conversation at the conference it was suggested that the ICPS might consider maintaining a confidential registry of mature plants in cultivation with the ultimate aim of making a love match between plants that are simultaneously flowering in different collections around the world. Without such a registry, flowering female plants may well be pollinated by their owners only to produce horticulturally interesting hybrids and hence opportunities to diversify the currently limited gene pool would be lost. This has probably already happened several times in recent years. The focus of the effort would lie in contacting those people out there who are quietly maintaining flowering sized plants. There are only a thousand or so readers of this list, but the total number of people who can be reached indirectly by way of the listserve and the ICPS membership is truly vast. We all know someone who knows someone... Total confidentiality would be assured, with the goal of putting growers in touch with each other by mutual consent and when their plants are in flower. Records could also be kept of sources of preserved pollen, however I'm not too sure about the viability of frozen Nepenthes pollen, so fresh pollen would be the first choice. The good news so far is that luckily for all of us (and N. clipeata!), it's really quite an easy species to cultivate, if a little slow. The same cannot always be said for some other threatened, or soon-to-be-threatened species of Nepenthes (and other plants) whose cultivation requirements are often poorly understood and which languish in cultivation with only remote possibilities for future artificial seed production. I think the best news of all is that there are people around the world who care about the future of these threatened plants, as shown by the interest on this list. Rob Cantley ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jan 21 00:32:10 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:32:14 +0100 Subject: Re: N. bicalcarata Dear Steven, > I consider Nepenthes pitchers a part of a leaf formation, which would make > spines the correct term to use. It depends. If you accepted the peristome to be a spine (I suppose only very few people would agree here), the projections of the peristome in _N. bicalcarata_ would be part of this spine sensu lato. > Could Jan or another expert help me with the correct terminology? I would regard Lloyd's neutral term projections most accurate. Kind regards Jan ################### From: ivo.koudela@del.cz Mon Jan 21 05:23:58 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:23:26 +0100 Subject: pygmy sundews gemmae Hi to all, I have more gemmae of the following pygmies than I can plant. I offer them for $2.00 per pack (usually more than 10 gemmae) + postage, although exchange - not necessarily for another Drosera - is preferred. D.callistos D.dichrosepala D.ericksoniae D.microscapa D.nitidula ssp.nitidula, ssp.leucostigma D.pulchella 'orange fl' D.roseana D.scorpioides D.nitidula ssp. omissa x D. ericksoniae Yours, Ivo Koudela ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Mon Jan 21 07:52:57 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:52:47 EST Subject: Re: status of N. clipeata Another thought on N. clipeata: The last time I checked, it was not on appendix I of CITES. I am not saying that I am a big fan of CITES, but just making a point about it. N. rajah is still on the list, yet its future in the wild has been all but secured due to a large part of its habitat falling within the park system, and access to this area is strictly controlled. Yet N. clipeata, from all accounts I have heard, is in a totally unprotected area, and only a very few plants remain, yet is not on Appendix I (unless they have added it since the last time I checked.) And it appears that only reason that N. clipeata has, up til now, survived extinction from overcollecting is due to the sheer difficulty in reaching the plants. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: andreas@wistuba.com Mon Jan 21 09:30:55 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:30:52 +0100 Subject: AW: status of N. clipeata Hi Michael, The only effect a lising under appendix I would have instantly would be that trade or sale of legally propagated plants would be much more difficult. It would not stop fires and habitat destuction. Bye Andreas -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com] Im Auftrag von MCATALANI@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 21. Januar 2002 16:59 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: Re: status of N. clipeata Another thought on N. clipeata: The last time I checked, it was not on appendix I of CITES. I am not saying that I am a big fan of CITES, but just making a point about it. N. rajah is still on the list, yet its future in the wild has been all but secured due to a large part of its habitat falling within the park system, and access to this area is strictly controlled. Yet N. clipeata, from all accounts I have heard, is in a totally unprotected area, and only a very few plants remain, yet is not on Appendix I (unless they have added it since the last time I checked.) And it appears that only reason that N. clipeata has, up til now, survived extinction from overcollecting is due to the sheer difficulty in reaching the plants. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: hoothback@yahoo.com Mon Jan 21 09:42:39 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:42:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: N.Edwardsiana Hello fellow CPers Does anyone know where I can get N.edwardsiana? Any help would be greatly appreciated. You can email me privately at hoothback@yahoo.com Thank you, Robin. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: cp@jedi.clara.co.uk Mon Jan 21 09:48:17 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:46:53 +0000 Subject: CPUK - Temporary down-time Hi, For those of you that use it, my web site is being moved to a different hosting company and may be unavailable over the next couple of days until the new DNS details trickle around the world... :-) If you have trouble accessing it, please try again in a couple of days time! The new hosting company will allow me the use of all sorts of extras I've been after for ages; predominantly JSP/Servlet support and mailing lists. Thanks, Andrew -- andrew@cpuk.org.uk | A UK Specific Guide http://www.cpuk.org.uk | to Carnivorous Plant Resources ################### From: Cokendolpher@aol.com Mon Jan 21 10:12:15 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:12:06 EST Subject: Re: AW: status of N. clipeata In a message dated 1/21/02 11:34:33 AM, andreas@wistuba.com writes: >The only effect a lising under appendix I would have instantly would be >that trade or sale of legally propagated plants would be much more >difficult. It would not stop fires and habitat destuction. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought CITES only tracks/regulates the international trade of species. Does the convention protect plants that are collected and sold within the state in which they occur? If not, then this certainly would not slow local collection of the species. In such a case the crime committed is by the person that actually carries the plant out of the country (not the local that collects the plant). James ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Mon Jan 21 10:34:37 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:34:29 EST Subject: Re: Steve Smith's 1982 CPN article In a message dated 1/18/02 7:10:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, Killerplants@aol.com writes: > WIP refers to "World Insectivorous Plants", a renown nursery that was run by > Bob Hanrahan until the mid-to-late eighties, I am thinking. The last > location I knew of was Marietta, Georgia. The nursery no longer exists > except in our fondest memories(first Nepenthes I got and first D. > schizandra), but Bob is still lurking around, possibly on this list. I > don't know if he grows Mexican Pings still. I only hear about his > accomplishments with Sarracenia on his 40 acre property in Alabama. > Hope that helps. > Yah, WIP certainly was a great source of plants. Almost all my non-hybrid Sarrs came from there, as well as my two monstrous N. khasiana. It was a dark day for CP growers, indeed, when WIP closed its doors in '89-90, if my memory fails me not. TTFN, Hamir the Hermit "Look over there, there's men dividing up the countryside. They've got authority, they've got a college degree. They've got machinery, they've got a pretty good job to do. They've got instructions and they don't want to bother about me." If you would like to help the victims of the September 11th terrorist attacks with their housing needs, go to http://relief.realtor.org/ [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: wiggin@uiuc.edu Mon Jan 21 10:43:04 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:20:33 -0600 Subject: Introduction I am a new member, my name is Candace. I am pretty new to keeping CPs.and I am trying to learn more every day. I got into CPs because I bought a terrarium kit for my husband that came with some CPs (an unidentified Ping, Sarrracenia, and a Drosera), and I didn't want them to die, so I picked up a few books. It took off from there. I own a few Cobras, a few Dionaea (red Dragon, but they aren't looking so good, and about 3 typical), a few mysterious pings, (came in "terrarium kits" which I bought from Lowe's), one Nep, Heliamphora (heterodoxa x minor), Sarracenia (about 10 different kinds, some hybrids), and a few Cephalotus. By and large, my interest lies in getting more Heliamphora. Particularly ionassii (though nutans and minor would be nice, also). If anyone is selling these, or knows anyone who is, email me privately. I've had considerable trouble locating them. The same goes for some pygmy sundews. D. scorpioides and D. mannii are two I 've had no luck in locating. In my past life (when I was a child) I did keep some VFT, and (of course) they died. I hope to do better this time around! Candace ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Mon Jan 21 10:46:55 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:46:36 EST Subject: Re: AW: status of N. clipeata In a message dated 1/21/2002 11:34:33 AM Central Standard Time, andreas@wistuba.com writes: > The only effect a lising under appendix I would have instantly would be > that trade or sale of legally propagated plants would be much more > difficult. It would not stop fires and habitat destuction. > You're absolutely right, which is why I am not a big fan of CITES. I am rather glad N. clipeata is not listed on appendix I, as it makes it easier to spread the plant around in worldwide cultivation. The best way to save a plant in the wild is to protect its habitat, not to seriously curtail the trade of legal plants. There was once talk about adding Dionaea to either appendix I or the USA endangered species act. Yikes! Talking about moving 5 steps backwards. Although the underlying motives were well intentioned, it would have all but assured massive illegal removal of plants from the wild (in excess of whats currently going on) to help satisfy demand which was shut down due to new regulations. With tc mass production available now in the CP world, I would like to see restrictions on ESA Sarracenia lifted so that we can freely move legal plants around. Penalties for removing ESA plants from the wild would remain in effect. We don't need penalties for propagating and spreading plants around in cultivation, we need them for illegally removing them from the wild. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tfw@dol.net Mon Jan 21 11:00:14 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:43:22 -0800 Subject: RE: CITES I'm pretty sure CITES has different interpretations in different countries. As such you may be correct or incorrect. It would require more research. Tristan Werner ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Mon Jan 21 11:41:21 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:41:18 -0800 Subject: [News Item]: Florida/Sarracenia/Pensacola Found this via my CP news scraper (http://chuckr.blogspot.com): http://www.naplesnews.com/02/01/florida/d681489a.htm Kind of gives you an idea of the crazy politics surrounding growth and conservation in the Sarracenia heartland It starts: Legislature: Lawmakers again may do little on growth management "PENSACOLA - State land purchases to prevent rare insect-eating pitcher plants from being bulldozed into oblivion on Pensacola's outskirts also are serving a growth management function. Navy officials joined environmentalists in urging the state to buy the land, not out of fondness for the carnivorous plants, but to keep residential and commercial development out of Pensacola Naval Air Station's flight paths. " chuckr ################### From: v@foto-cd.com Mon Jan 21 11:58:43 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:58:46 -0500 Subject: White flowering aquatic Utricularia in the Everglades Hello together, I just returned from a trip to the Everglades, where I found a floating Utricularia with a white flower that has a yellow center in one foot deep water. The flower was about 10mm in length. There was only one flower and it is not in perfect condition (see http://foto-cd.com/cp/490_everglades (7).jpg). Didn't feel like walking through the gator-infested waters to find more flowers ... ;-) While we are at it: We also stopped by at the Apalachicola forrest and found beside several Sarracenia species/hybrids (flava, psittacina, purpurea, flava X purpurea) a Pinguicula (see http://foto-cd.com/cp/ping.jpg). Is this P. ionantha? It looked like a P. vulgaris, maybe 3-4 inches diameter and didn't have flowers, only some buds. Thank you in advance! Volker Foto-CD.com PS: I won't reveal the exact locations of the plants. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: flytrap@ihug.co.nz Mon Jan 21 12:07:54 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:12:24 +1300 Subject: Re: cultivars, peer review Hi everybody How about test gardens. There is no point in producing a beautiful cultivar that everybody loves if it is not going to grow well in a variety of conditions. ><Michael Catalini envisions, what would be the fate of the plants >submitted for such review? Would the reviewers get to keep them or >would they be returned to the original grower? >> Normally, with a test garden, the material is sold at the end of the review period and the money is used for the upkeep and expenses of the test garden. There would need to be some sort of recognition/award for a plant that does well in the test garden. >That would be up to the registrant. However, by spreading some >material around for evaluation, you are increasing the plant's >distribution in cultivation, which I feel is a critical part of any >cultivar. After all, what good is it to have a cultivar registered >in which the only specimen ever to have existed is dead. To me, >this goes against the entire spirit of the word "cultivar." On one >side of the spectrum, we are trying to ensure we dont end up with >mass production of a cultivar which never deserved to be such. On >the other side of the spectrum, we want to ensure that superior >cultivars are obtainable. Inferior cultivars will not sell. Anybody who wastes a lot of time and money producing large numbers of an ugly plant that does not grow well will soon learn better. Heather Frederick New Zealand ################### From: jgbritt@mac.com Mon Jan 21 12:14:34 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:14:11 -0800 Subject: Re: Tuberous sundews dormancy period > > At least for D. auriculata, you don't want them to go dormant any >> more than they have to. > >is a 12h fotoperiod too long, i.e. will it force them into dormancy? For starters, I can't think of any evolutionary reason why photoperiod sensitivity would be selected for with respect to dormancy in these species. It isn't like a if dormancy was delayed under otherwise ideal conditions a catastrophic summer-related event could happen that would kill the plants. For at least these D. auriculata, there is no evidence they are sensitive to photoperiod. They are only sensitive to temperature. In fact they started to go dormant last spring when the greenhouse got up to 90F for a few days. We turned down the thermostat for the cooler and moved the plants in front of it and they perked up. The seeds for these plants came from the ICPS seed bank 4 years ago. Who knows from what part of their range they were initially collected and how many generations they were selected for doing well in captivity. I have seedlings of known locations now and will see how they do in the future. It is quite possible that for some of the more difficult species they actually do have a timing mechanism and you could get them out of whack by giving them conditions they were not evolved to deal with. ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Mon Jan 21 13:14:09 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:13:54 EST Subject: Re: [News Item]: Florida/Sarracenia/Pensacola In a message dated 1/21/2002 1:48:56 PM Central Standard Time, chuckr@vmware.com writes: <> <> This is actually a good thing. (And yes, it does seem crazy!) But dont necessarily think the navy is being self centered here. I have seen conservation programs in which endangered/threatened animals are released with cooperation from the navy onto their land. (I think the "the crododile hunter" did a show where they released rattlesnakes onto the property.) So any help the prairie organizers can get in delaying development of the area is a big plus. The tarkiln bayou is directly adjacent to the navy blue angels facility. The pitcher plant prairie (now called tarklin bayou state park) is located on a small part of the tarkiln bayou. We should all hope that the state of Florida continues to have the funds allocated to buy the remaining 5500 out of 7000 acres of this area. After all, the best area has yet to be purchased (unless it was done recently), and was in severe danger of being purchased by a developer and convreted into a high dollar community and golf course. The Navy is pushing for yet another reason not to develop the area, and this is a very good thing. (Yes, it does seem like politics are crazy, but at least this one works in our favor for a change.) I do recommend a visit to the pitcher plant prairie. I have maps to help find th eplants within the park at http://www.cpjungle.com/perdido.htm. By the way, someone mentioned one time that your not going to find the good stands of plants inside the pitcher plant prarie by using the maps on my site. Actually, if you want to see plants inside the park, the maps are excellent. No, it doesnt show how to get to the best stands of plants within Tarkiln Bayou, but thats because these stands are not yet part of the state park, and are still on private land. As soon as I find out the state has purchased this land, I'll update my site. (Pray they build a boardwalk!) Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: andreas@wistuba.com Mon Jan 21 14:06:42 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:06:29 +0100 Subject: AW: AW: status of N. clipeata Please do not misunderstand me here - I'm absolutely not against CITES. I think in many cases CITES is very important in order to protect plants or animals. However only in cases where a threat to a species is done by trade. In case of N. clipeata massive destruction of the single known habitat is the problem, while all plants that are being sold right now are artificially propagated. While Nepenthes certainly were threatened by collecting some years ago in the past, these times are over. Local collection, whether regulated in any way certainly is not a problem for Nepenthes. Bye Andreas -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com] Im Auftrag von Cokendolpher@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 21. Januar 2002 19:22 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: Re: AW: status of N. clipeata In a message dated 1/21/02 11:34:33 AM, andreas@wistuba.com writes: >The only effect a lising under appendix I would have instantly would be >that trade or sale of legally propagated plants would be much more >difficult. It would not stop fires and habitat destuction. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought CITES only tracks/regulates the international trade of species. Does the convention protect plants that are collected and sold within the state in which they occur? If not, then this certainly would not slow local collection of the species. In such a case the crime committed is by the person that actually carries the plant out of the country (not the local that collects the plant). James ################### From: mail@drosophyllum.com Mon Jan 21 14:16:28 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:24:38 +0100 Subject: female Nepenthes clipeata Hi, hmmm.... if so many of this plants have been collected AND SOLD from the natural habitat, than there must also be some people who who have bought this plant and cultivate them now. I don't know the relation at which female and male Nepenthes occur in nature (does someone know ?) but if, lets say only 20 plants of all collected plants have survived than there should be some females around. But if these people are interested in "saving" this spezies is another question... Martin What's about the status of other Nepenthes. Like aristolochioides, campanulata, ... are there male and female plants in cultivation ? ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Mon Jan 21 15:27:27 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:27:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: CITES On Mon, 21 Jan 2002, tristan werner wrote: > > I'm pretty sure CITES has different interpretations in different > countries. As such you may be correct or incorrect. It would require > more research. One of the best parts of the CITES treaty is that it is NOT open to interpretation as various signatory nations might see fit, and the best part of that is that the signatories must police each other to keep everyone honest rather than answer to some draconian central authority. An importing nation this week is an exporting nation next week, and if the importers don't enforce CITES rules they can't very well expect other nations to inspect and permit/refuse the exporter's CITES-related shipments. Come convention time (every other year) the maverick nations can be sanctioned, yet few have been because compliance has been generally good and no one has tried to "interpret" the treaty. If a shipment of CITES I or II listed species arrives at a destination port without CITES permits from the exporting nation, the importing nation has no choice but to refuse import, whether or not it has issued an import permit (CITES-I). That's not open to interpretation, because all signatories have already agreed not only on the rules but on the listed species. CITES is nothing but a treaty to regulate international trade in species that are endangered in large part because of that trade, and in species that are traded substantially and whose natural history, distribution, and status in the wild are such that any major increase in that trade might push them into endangered status. As such it has been extremely effective in controlling that trade. It's true that there is a substantial underground (=smuggling) trade in some CITES-listed species, but there also was prior to CITES because most of the CITES-listed species were already protected in their native countries--those countries couldn't do a thing to enforce their own laws once the specimens crossed the border, and so they quite willingly ratified CITES. I don't understand how anyone can believe that CITES has increased smuggling, and in any case I invite anyone who believes that to prove it. The CITES treaty is available at www.cites.org and is very easy to read and understand. It's been my experience that most of the people opposed to it have not read it and typically have no idea what it says, and the rest are opposed to it because it gets in their way. Good. Sean Barry ################### From: Tigre04@aol.com Mon Jan 21 18:08:59 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:08:54 EST Subject: SPECIAL THANKS TO CRISTIANO PERRUCCI I just wanted to thank Cristiano Perrucci for sending me the D. echinoblasta gemmae to my home address which I received yesterday. The gemmae were intended to be given to my cousin and that I did. THANKS A BUNCH, Paul Thompson [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tfw@dol.net Mon Jan 21 19:05:41 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:51:04 -0800 Subject: RE: CITES I guess should rephrase my comment. CITES participants must have a minimum degree of enforcement, but they can impose more controls. In various regions field collecting may be illegal as you described it. ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Mon Jan 21 19:27:19 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:27:17 -0600 Subject: CP judging, CITES, etc I'd better stop posting about orchids, but that's the "system" I most familar with. Michael, This depends on who you talk to. I remember a reference claiming Fabaceae is the largest. But then again, people split this family into several smaller families. Each year, a decent number of new species are discovered for orchids, and there is a huge confusion regarding orchid taxa. Many species have synonyms, and sometimes it is very difficult to define a species. So which is larger? I don't know (I personally would like to believe Orchidiceae is the largest, but then again, the "size' does not matter). I think it is still like comparing oranges and apples. Personally, I never said CPs should be judged like orchids. However, even if CP people decide to choose their own way, there's something they can take a look at. I also personally find AOS's claim on their size absurd. Why does it have to be the \223biggest\224 orchid society? I think quality matters more than size (the same thing can be said about ICPS, though). I didn't renew my membership a few years ago. They keep raising membership fee, but I did not quite see improvement in their services, etc. They were trying to build a $10 million headquarter, and were rather pesky. If they have that much money, why should I pay? Nobody really knows how many orchid species are out there. Although some very exciting species are being discovered (e.g., Paph. vietnamense, Phrag. besseae, etc), but some are disappearing (e.g., Epi. ilense) as well. But that's just a number of "spcies." AS of Oct. 1995 (I think), 100,000 greces of orchid had been registered. Of course, many do not exist any more, but there are many still existing. And if you take a look at numbers of "cultivars," that would be huge. I think either way it works. In AOS judging system (this is just an example), you can join judging as an observer although there is some limitation. For example, an observer cannot participate in discussion on CBR (Certified Botanical Recognition) and CHM (Certified Horticultural Merit), I think. If this is going to a peer evaluation, a certain limitation may apply as well. I am not sure if \223less experienced growers\224 would be able to grow, say, a new cultivar of Nepenthes raja to its maximum potential. Also everybody's growing condition is different. This may be an advantage, but it can be a disadvantage, too. Discussion (or sometimes flame wars) on CITES erupts on the orchid listserv I belong to. Whether they think CITES has contributed to conservation of species or not, they tend to agree that it is obsolete. It does not have flexibility. Since plants were not a major focus (animals were) and CITES concerns \223trading\224 of species, not necessarily protection of species or conservation of habitats, many \223unfortunate\224 incidents have happened as you can guess. It is quite a lengthy process to list a species on CITES. One thing ICPS can look into is, sending a representative. AOS sends its representatives to meetings. I am not sure if ICPS can support this type of activity financially. If I remember correctly, AOS spends a decent amount of money on \223lobbying, etc.\224 James, That really depends. I think CITES concerns only international trade. However, apart from ratification of CITES, each country has its own law based on their interpretation of CITES. As a result, laws or regulation, or \223interpretation\224 of CITES differs in each country. This has caused some confusion. One reason I think CITES does not apply to \223local\224 trade is the case with Paphiopedilum. In early \22190, the whole genus along with Phragmipedium got listed on CITES I. However, Paphiopedilum species are still collected from the wild in its native countries such as Viet Nam (Viet Nam had not ratified CITES. It may still have not). However, somebody posted a message regarding to Paph. sanderianum on Orchid Guide Digest, and it sounded like collecting from the wild is illegal there. Again, this may be a \223local\224 law, and sometimes, it is hard to tell. In addition, CITES apply to hybrids of orchids. All orchids whether they are species or hybrids are listed on CITES II if not CITES I. The rational was that there is no way to tell differences between species and hybrids if they are not in bloom. It certainly is a \223convention.\224 Even hybrids can be almost impossible to import depending where you live. I heard (not confirmed) it is very difficult to import orchids in Scandinabia. It is also very difficult to import orchids from Japan. Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Mon Jan 21 21:36:01 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:35:49 EST Subject: Re: CITES In a message dated 1/21/2002 5:33:45 PM Central Standard Time, sjbarry@ucdavis.edu writes: <> I understand it and have my CITES permit. It really doesnt get in my way at all. I can import any species of Nepenthes, no matter which appendix they fall under. I am still not a big fan. (I should point out that I am talking about CP, and not other CITES protected plants or animals.) N. clipeata should have been on appendix I years ago. It was highly exploited, nearly to the point of extinction. It's still not on appendix I. Yet, N. khasiana and N. rajah are on appendix I. N. khasiana should be in no danger of being commercially exploited in the wild. It may be in danger of extinction in the wild, but its not going to be in danger of commercial exploitation. The plants are widely available and very inexpensive. N. rajah's natural habitat is now so well protected that its viability in the wild has virtually been secured. The way to eliminate commercial exploitation of wild plants is to make them widely and inexpensively available. The way to increase the exploitation of wild plants is to quell the availability. If we can mass propagate a plant, we should make availability as easy as possible. This in of itself will reduce the commercial exploitation of plants in the wild. After all, you can put all the restrictions you want on a plant, but someone will still smuggle it. But if you make a plant widely available and inexpensive, you make smuggling more expensive than legalized trade. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Mon Jan 21 21:49:48 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:47:26 -0800 Subject: Re: pygmy sundews gemmae Hi, I'd be very interested in the D. scorpioides, roseana, pulchella 'orange fl', dichrosepala, callistos. I can pay for them. I'm afraid I don't have any plants for trade. Thanks, Stephen Davis www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com At 05:33 AM 1/21/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Hi to all, > >I have more gemmae of the following pygmies than I can plant. I offer them >for $2.00 per pack (usually more than 10 gemmae) + postage, although >exchange - not necessarily for another Drosera - is preferred. > >D.callistos >D.dichrosepala >D.ericksoniae >D.microscapa >D.nitidula ssp.nitidula, ssp.leucostigma >D.pulchella 'orange fl' >D.roseana >D.scorpioides > >D.nitidula ssp. omissa x D. ericksoniae > >Yours, > Ivo Koudela Stephen W. Davis www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Mon Jan 21 22:00:13 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:59:53 EST Subject: Re: CP judging, CITES, etc <> I agree, it's all up for debate. For the record, I was quoting Helmut Bechtel in the book "The Manual Of Cultivated Orchids." <> I didnt really want to come across as orchid society bashing; that wasn't my intent at all. (After all, I do grow a few myself) I was just trying to figure out how we could ensure excellent quality cultivars. Your points on how orchids are judged for awards are well taken, and we should evaluate them if we decide to place awards on plants and cultivars. There would be some procedures that we would most certainly apply to our system. So any knowledge on that subject is a big help. I realize like it may have seemed that I have this hatred for the attention the orchid societies get, but that's not the case at all. I believe one advantage we have over other societies in registering cultivars is that our group is relatively small, therefore communication is much easier. We have just one ICPN, not a dozen. We have this listserve. Anyone can voice their opinion, and it is channeled to virtually every serious cp'er on the planet. We have one ICPS. And our dues are reasonable. :) In this regard, I believe we really do have an advantage over other societies. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Mon Jan 21 23:09:59 2002 Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:09:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: CITES On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 MCATALANI@aol.com wrote: > protected plants or animals.) N. clipeata should have been on > appendix I years ago. It was highly exploited, nearly to the point > of extinction. It's still not on appendix I. Yet, N. khasiana and > N. rajah are on appendix I. N. khasiana should be in no danger of > being commercially exploited in the wild. Species are proposed for listing in CITES based on the best evidence available at the time, and a vote of the signatory nations actually accomplishes the listing. If you have good evidence for your statements about the status of the above three Nephenthes, you should share it with the US Fish and Wildlife Service, which is the US CITES management authority. As I recall, wild populations of N. rajah were at one time very heavily exploited and traded, and that's the reason it was singled out for CITES I. If you have solid evidence that trade is no longer a threat to it or to N. khasiana, you should not keep it to yourself--share it with the people who will present it at the convention. Believe it or not, the CITES signatories don't want to deal with species that shouldn't be listed on Appendix I. But your evidence has to be good, provable numbers--the mere fact that N. rajah is widely estabished in cultivation does not prove that it's no longer collected and it definitely doesn't prove that the wild populations could withstand renewed collecting. > The way to eliminate commercial exploitation of wild plants is to > make them widely and inexpensively available. The way to increase > the exploitation of wild plants is to quell the availability. If we > can mass propagate a plant, we should make availability as easy as > possible. This in of itself will reduce the commercial exploitation > of plants in the wild. After all, you can put all the restrictions > you want on a plant, but someone will still smuggle it. But if you > make a plant widely available and inexpensive, you make smuggling > more expensive than legalized trade. > In about 1996 the Fish and Wildlife Service arrested a fairly prominent European horticulturist as he was attempting to leave the US with about 3,000 Dionaea, all of which he had collected or purchased from illegal collectors in North Carolina. He had collected this obscene number of plants despite the ready, inexpensive availability of Dionaea in horticulture, and the only enforcement authority that kept him from exporting the plants entirely legally was CITES. Granted, the plants were still removed permanently from the wild, but I don't think the reason was CITES. The reason was a greedy, uncaring individual who couldn't be bothered with the laws of any country or treaty. You'll never convince me that CITES made it difficult to obtain Dionaea, in Europe or anywhere else on earth. Sean Barry ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Tue Jan 22 01:40:56 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:40:49 +0100 Subject: Re: large families, ICPS & CITES Dear Hideka, > This depends on who you talk to. I remember a reference claiming Fabaceae is > the largest. But then again, people split this family into several smaller > families. Each year, a decent number of new species are discovered for > orchids, and there is a huge confusion regarding orchid taxa. Many species > have synonyms, and sometimes it is very difficult to define a species. So > which is larger? I don't know (I personally would like to believe > Orchidiceae is the largest, but then again, the "size' does not matter). Plant families ranked by numbers of valid species names published (as of 1995): 1. Orchidaceae (ca. 35000) 2. Asteraceae (=Compositae, ca. 21000) 3. Rubiaceae (ca. 10400) 4. Fabaceae (=Leguminosae excl. Caesalpiniaceae & Mimosaceae, ca. 9000) 5. Poaceae (=Gramineae ca. 8000) 6. Euphorbiaceae (ca. 7900) 7. Lamiaceae (=Labiatae ca. 5600) 8. Acanthaceae (ca. 4300) 9-11. Scrophulariaceae, Melastomataceae, Cyperaceae (ca. 4000 each) All plants (incl. algal relatives) total ca. 300000, i.e. the 10 largest families (out of 743 here recognized) account for more than one third of all known plant species diversity (1.5% of all familes contain 38% of all species). Note the predominance of asterid families (2., 3., 7., 8. & 9.). BTW, Leguminosae (incl. Caesalpiniaceae & Mimosaceae) would contain ca. 12600 valid species names (still not sufficient to beat even Asteraceae). > I think quality matters more than size (the same > thing can be said about ICPS, though). I didn't renew my membership a few > years ago. They keep raising membership fee, but I did not quite see > improvement in their services, etc. They were trying to build a $10 million > headquarter, and were rather pesky. If they have that much money, why should > I pay? I hope everyone understands that you are *NOT* talking about the ICPS here (the note in parentheses might suggest so). > It is quite a lengthy process to list a species on CITES. One thing ICPS can > look into is, sending a representative. AOS sends its representatives to > meetings. I am not sure if ICPS can support this type of activity > financially. If I remember correctly, AOS spends a decent amount of money on > \223lobbying, etc.\224 Some ICPS representatives are members of the "Carnivorous Plant Specialist Group" of the "Species Survival Commission" of the "International Union for the Conservation of Nature". The IUCN-SSC-CPSG has participated in compiling a list of CITES-relevant cps (together with an assessment of threats and potential consequences for their CITES Appendix status), which is about to be published "soon" (since a few years). Kind regards Jan ################### From: seansamia@yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 02:45:54 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 02:45:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Nepenthes Clippeata Hello Nepenthes Nuts! Maybe the I.C.P.S. should start the dating game, originally designed by Tom Johnson himself or ex-seedbank meister or even better, a confidential Nepenthes registration service. Whatever's done about the Nepenthes Clippeata situation, I would like to help. I have a male Nepenthes Clippeata. Petiolaris Sean Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ################### From: seansamia@yahoo.com Tue Jan 22 03:08:36 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 03:08:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Petiolaris Complex Hybrid Trip That Took Me By Surprise Hey listserver and Jan! Mr. Schlauer, I need your knowledge and wisdom. When crossing D.falconeri with D.ordensis, I took this hybrid on two paths. The viable seed only comes from the D.falconeri side due to the flower size, but once in a great while, you get mutant flower that is the same size is as D.ordensis, and only then can you collect viable seed from the D.ordensis side of the hybrid. By theory, whether collecting seed from either side of the hybrid, you'll still go along the same path and end up with the same hybrid. When I grew the plants up to maturity, that theory was surely put to rest. Both hybrids look worlds apart. The F1 hybrid from the Ordensis side is different from the F1 hybrid from the Falconeri side, even though the P1 parents are the same. Keep in mind it's very rare to get a flower size in comparison. Each Petiolaris in the complex has it's own flower size. Jan, how can this be? Petiolaris Sean Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Tue Jan 22 06:00:11 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:00:14 +0100 Subject: Re: The Petiolaris Complex Hybrid Trip That Took Me By Surprise Dear Sean, > When crossing D.falconeri > with D.ordensis, I took this hybrid on two paths. > The viable seed only comes from the D.falconeri > side due to the flower size, but once in a great > while, you get mutant flower that is the same > size is as D.ordensis, and only then can you > collect viable seed from the D.ordensis side of > the hybrid. Let me understand: 1. You usually get viable seeds from hybridization if _D. falconeri_ is the female, seed-parent. 2. Sometimes, _D. ordensis_ produces normal flowers that yield viable seeds in the reciprocal cross, i.e. if _D. ordensis_ is the seed-parent. > By theory, whether collecting seed from either side of the hybrid, you'll > still go along the same path and end up with the same hybrid. Formally (and nomenclaturally) this is the case, but there may still be differences due to extrachromosomal (or extranuclear) inheritance of certain characteristics (e.g. sterility). > When I grew the plants up to maturity, that theory was surely put to rest. > Both hybrids look worlds apart. This is very well possible. > The F1 hybrid from the Ordensis side is different from the F1 hybrid > from the Falconeri side, even though the P1 parents are the same. In which respect do they differ? I do not doubt you get different offspring (this is a situation familiar to many breeders), but are you sure you have hybrids in both cases and not selfings or apomicts? > Keep in mind it's very rare to get a flower size in comparison. Why is size so important? Did you encounter compatibility barriers that correlate with size? > Each Petiolaris in the complex has it's own flower size. Jan, how can this > be? Well, the most popular standard explanation is it's because they are different species. But flowers or flower parts may be different even within a single species, a situation known as heteromorphy or heterostyly. Some species or populations of _Drosera_ (_D. adelae_, _D. indica_) are known to show heterostyly to some degree. This mechanism to reduce self-compatibility is widespread in Nepenthales (to which Droseraceae belong). In general I would say species limits and compatibility barriers in Lasiocephala (the _D. petiolaris_ complex) are little studied and poorly understood. Some of the so-called species may be infraspecific variants or even hybrids. Dr. Kondo obtained what could be classified as different species (according to some authors) essentially by just cloning a single plant. His audience at the San Francisco conference was surprised, to say the least. I have no idea how/if, e.g. _D. lanata_ plants with "2n"=19 can produce seed at all. There is definitely more to Lasiocephala than is apparent to the superficial eye, and odd hybridization results would not surprise me too much. Just make sure to record parentage properly, and it would probably be a good idea to conserve some herbarium specimens for later analysis. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Tue Jan 22 06:08:02 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:08:08 +0100 Subject: Re: Concerning Nepenthes clipeata Dear Sean, > Maybe the I.C.P.S. should > start the dating game, originally designed by Tom > Johnson himself or ex-seedbank meister or even > better, a confidential Nepenthes registration > service. What should the ICPS do, exactly? Is the ICPS really needed for this? I guess involvement of the ICPS would add an unnecessary step to the procedure, and I would consider anything that interferes with rapid action as detrimental. Why should the registration service be confidential? How do you want to keep the secrets? Kind regards Jan ################### From: Sundew1802@aol.com Tue Jan 22 06:08:03 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:07:55 EST Subject: Re: Herr Volker's Fla trip Heinrich, From your photo showing a somewhat saccate lip, the utric is the rare white flowered form of U purpurea. The leaves grow in whorls along the stem. Your ping form the Appalachicola area is most likely P ionantha, which is flowering for me at the moment, so the plants you saw will probably start blooming very soon(unless the weather turns very cold again). My plants are producing white, white with a purple throat, and all purple flowers; although the flowering plants within the Appalachicola State Park that I have seen, have been white. You should come back to visit during April-May when the CP are in growth and flowering to really appreciate the area. Bob McMorris Hudson Fl ################### From: mr30@st-andrews.ac.uk Tue Jan 22 06:54:52 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:56:16 -0000 Subject: Re: Tuberous sundews dormancy period > > > At least for D. auriculata, you don't want them to go dormant any > >> more than they have to. > > > >is a 12h fotoperiod too long, i.e. will it force them into dormancy? > > For starters, I can't think of any evolutionary reason why > photoperiod sensitivity would be selected for with respect to > dormancy in these species. I can't think of any evolutionary reason why photoperiod sensitivity would be selected to trigger gemmae production in pygmies. Still, this appears to be the way it is. That's why I asked for experiences with that. Thanks for the answer! Best, Marcus > For at least these D. auriculata, there is no evidence they are > sensitive to photoperiod. They are only sensitive to temperature. > In fact they started to go dormant last spring when the greenhouse > got up to 90F for a few days. We turned down the thermostat for the > cooler and moved the plants in front of it and they perked up. ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Tue Jan 22 07:20:36 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:05:25 EST Subject: Re: CITES <> Actually, I thought he was caught and prosecuted under North Carolina state law. It didn't have anything to do with CITES at all. My original comment about dionaea was that it was proposed on appendix I or ESA. Placing it on the endangered species list WOULD be 5 steps backwards, and would all but guarantee poaching from the wild. A plant on the ESA cannot be transported or sold in interstate and exportation commerce without an ESA permit, which I understand is now quite difficult to obtain. This would severely hamper the supply chain which has been developed. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Tue Jan 22 07:53:53 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:53:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: CITES On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 MCATALANI@aol.com wrote: > < inexpensive availability of Dionaea in horticulture, and the only > enforcement authority that kept him from exporting the plants > entirely legally was CITES. >> > > Actually, I thought he was caught and prosecuted under North > Carolina state law. It didn't have anything to do with CITES at > all. No, he was charged specifically with violation of the provisions of Appendix II permitting, and he was even offered the opportunity to declare his plants under CITES and apply for an export permit, at the Baltimore airport (talk about giving the miscreant a break!). He declined, and was arrested. The US Fish and Wildlife Service posted to this listserve a complete account of the entire process concerning this man at the time it happened. True, he would have been liable under the Lacey Act because he had already exported the plants from North Carolina, and of course he had also violated North Carolina laws, and for all I know he may have been charged under those laws as well. > > My original comment about dionaea was that it was proposed on > appendix I or ESA. Placing it on the endangered species list WOULD > be 5 steps backwards, and would all but guarantee poaching from the > wild. Seems that's happening anyway, and if people are routinely removing 3000 plants at a time from the wild for international export (I'm assuming our European visitor was the tip of the iceberg) it won't be long before accessible wild populations are a memory. State law, the Lacey Act, and the provisions of CITES II don't seem to be working, and neither does the complete availability of very inexpensive cultivated plants in every nursery and hardware store across the planet. > A plant on the ESA cannot be transported or sold in > interstate and exportation commerce without an ESA permit, which I > understand is now quite difficult to obtain. This would severely > hamper the supply chain which has been developed. Species in cultivation as pervasively as Dionaea are a different matter, though some kind of permitting would be necessary. It's one thing to be one of a few growers who want to send F1 Sarracenia oreophila across state lines, and it's quite another to be one of thousands of people who deal daily in tens of thousands of F100 cultivated Venus flytraps. On the other hand, as we have seen, the ready availability of cultivated plants hasn't stopped poaching, so maybe we should be looking at tighter protection all around. If the plant qualifies under ESA rules, it should be protected under ESA. That listing process is quite involved and lengthy, and offers several stages of public and scientific comment, so you would have lots of opportunities to express your reservations about it. By the way, listing under ESA is the only federal way to protect endangered species habitat, and I think we all agree that habitat loss is the greatest single threat to almost all threatened and endangered species. Sean Barry ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Tue Jan 22 08:11:31 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:11:23 EST Subject: S. alabamensis and S. oreophila field trips The Nature Conservancy is holding a field trip to the Roberta Case-Pine Hills Preserve on April 20, 2002. This 160-200 acre site contains what may have been the best stand of S. alabamensis plants ever known to have existed. There is a good possibility the plants will be in flower at this time. A field trip to see the S. oreophila sites at the Chitwood Barrens and Coosa Bog preserves in DeKalb and Cherokee Counties is set for May 11, 2002. The price for each of these trips is $25, of which $15 goes directly to the management of their preserves. To reserve a spot for either field trip, please contact Casey Wilborn at the TNC by email at CWILBORN@TNC.ORG or by phone at (205-251-1155). The web site address for info on these two trips can be found at http://nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/alabama/events/ Kristi and I have already reserved our spots. Hope to see you all there. If you see me there without Kristi, well, just dont ask. :) Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Tue Jan 22 08:33:19 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:33:12 EST Subject: Re: CITES <> Man!!! And we wonder why poaching continues?? It's just too easy. Actually, the fines imposed under North Carolina can be fairly stiff. If the laws were actually enforced, it would be a deterrent. (Actually, the price of propagated plants should be a deterrent to collectng from the wild as well.) My concern is that if Dionaea were to fall under the ESA guidelines, then it really would be easier to illegally collect the plants from the wild (while they could still be found) instead of going through the red tape of ESA permits. We need enforcement of existing laws for dionaea. Laws which would keep illegal occurances from happening. (Removal from the wild) We dont need new mandates on everyone who is legally trading propagated plants. If N. carolina were to arrest one person a week for removing wild vft and fine them $1000 per plant, and do this for 4-8 consecutive weeks, and make sure it is covered in the news, it will cut down on poaching. Once you cut down on it, it is much easier to find the horrific repeat offenders. After all, for $1000, I can pretty much legally purchase nearly 10,000 vft's. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Tue Jan 22 08:39:14 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:39:02 EST Subject: Re: S. alabamensis and S. oreophila field trips Casey from the TNC just contacted me to let me know that the price of the field trips are incorrect on their website. They are only charging $10 per attendant, of which $8 is going directly to the preserve. Thei website and all other information incorrectly lists the price at $25. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Tue Jan 22 09:12:14 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:12:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: N. clipeata, Jan Schlauer too. Hey James, The N. clipeata project is alive but slumbering. The ICPS's main (or rather, more applied) conservation work is temporarily on hold while we await some information from the US Gov. regarding our pending 501c3 nonprofit tax status. Also, I've not been able to do as much ICPS conservation work lately as I've been involved in the planning of my upcoming wedding. (gulp) In the meantime, a very important piece of conservation work was recently completed by our own esoteric Jan Schlauer, who quite humbly has not mentioned it on the listserve. Jan has been the primary force (IMHO) on refining the data we have on CP distributions (see his CPN article) and especially his work with the IUCN (I'll let him describe that). Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org > From: Cokendolpher@aol.com > I was just curious about the status of Nepenthes clipeata in culture. About > how many growers are actually working with this plant? Are any larger plants > in public gardens anywhere? I noted on the ICPS webpage that they were > developing a recovery program to try and maintain this species, at least in > cultivation. Can someone give us a report on their progress? > > James > ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Tue Jan 22 09:16:18 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:16:08 EST Subject: Re: CITES and VFT fines Sean, Michael and List, I was just thinking that in a old article(eight years ago or so) I read about the ...Green Swamp .. I think, they said the fine was $500 per Dionaea plant at that time. If it's that or up to $1000, as Michael is hinting, the fine would be a life ender. That would be 1.5 million to 3 million dollars in the case outlined prior. If that was enforced, who could pay that? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Cokendolpher@aol.com Tue Jan 22 09:20:20 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:20:14 EST Subject: Re: Concerning Nepenthes clipeata In a message dated 1/22/02 8:13:15 AM, jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de writes: >What should the ICPS do, exactly? Is the ICPS really needed for this? This would add authenticity to the group which might be helpful when requesting information/help from botanical gardens or other agencies. >Why should the registration service be confidential? How do you want to >keep the secrets? Certainly the information (at least e-mail addresses) should be shared among the group that has clipeata so that better communication could be established, but some of these folks probably do not want to have to deal with questions from the general population about their plants. I recall some thefts which have occurred concerning rare plants. It seems unwise to publish a list of private addresses where rare plants are housed. James ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Tue Jan 22 10:08:23 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:08:15 EST Subject: Re: N. clipeata, Jan Schlauer too. Barry, Congrats! You will have to send us a growlist so will will know what we can ask for-er, I mean send for wedding gifts. All this talk about N. clipeata has prompted me to share. Perhaps Barry has forgotten about this, but I doubt it. A while back on Peter Thiel's Trading Post, there was a post by someone claiming to have about 144 mature TC N. clipeata to give away for free, in lots of four!!!! I think his name was James and his e-mail was luckyduck or something from aol. Maybe he is lurking around somewhere. He said he mass produced them so there would be plenty for all. I said I would take four and I mentioned it to Barry just to tell someone. He said he would even overnight them. I thought at best, I would get four hybrids, but I got zilch. Don't worry, I was not shocked.I e-mailed him and he was very snotty and said he would send more, and nothing arrived. His other posts were offering to trade D. capensis seed for any CP. Quite a turn-around from tissue culturing N. cli! peata to trading common Drosera seed. Oh well. For N. clipeata, it was worth the waste of time. I got some digs from a certain editor of CPN for that. I thought everybody could use a little humour and since we were on the subject of N. clipeata.... Regards, Joe Griffin, Court Jester Lincoln, NE USA PS Sorry to hear Jan is esoteric. Maybe some vitamin C and more fiber in his diet would help? (joke) ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Tue Jan 22 10:11:05 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:10:58 EST Subject: Re: CITES and VFT fines << I was just thinking that in a old article(eight years ago or so) I read about the ...Green Swamp .. I think, they said the fine was $500 per Dionaea plant at that time. If it's that or up to $1000, as Michael is hinting, the fine would be a life ender. That would be 1.5 million to 3 million dollars in the case outlined prior. If that was enforced, who could pay that?>> Exactly. Actually, for first time offenders, the amount was much less. (Somewhere around $10-$100 per plant) Repeat offenders could get up to $1000 per plant. This may have been changed over the years (or reported to me incorrectly.) Before the law was changed, you could go to the Carolinas and dig up 100,000 flytraps and throw them in the bed of a dump truck. In the unlikely case you got caught, you had to pay a fine in the extraordinary amount of somewhere between $25-$50. Total. Not per plant. And the way it sounds, you may have been able to keep the plants. (slight sarcasm, although it wouldnt surprise if it happened.) This type of law actually promoted poaching. The poachers knew it was illegal, and knew if they got caught they would have to pay very little. It was a minor cost of doing business. Even the current laws are ineffective if they are not (1) enforced and (2) followed up by the judicial system in actually punishing the criminals. Do these, and add a little publicity to the action, and you have an effective deterrent. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Tue Jan 22 11:27:10 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:27:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: CITES and VFT fines On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 Killerplants@aol.com wrote: > I was just thinking that in a old article(eight years ago or so) I > read about the ...Green Swamp .. I think, they said the fine was $500 > per Dionaea plant at that time. If it's that or up to $1000, as > Michael is hinting, the fine would be a life ender. That would be 1.5 > million to 3 million dollars in the case outlined prior. If that was > enforced, who could pay that? Well, I agree, but political and legal realities will always take precedence. The law always provides for a maximum fine (such as the above) that in real life no one ever enforces in wildlife cases. I think the main reason they don't is that prosecutors and judges, particularly in large cities, often balk at treating wildlife offenses at the same level as human property crime, even if the law "requires" it. I testified at a case in San Francisco three decades ago during which the JUDGE interrupted the prosecutor and asked why he was wasting the court's time with wildlife issues when they had murders and rapes to try, after which he dismissed the seemingly ironclad case. If possible, prosecutors typically plead out these kinds of cases rather than take them to trial--it saves time and resources and as above one never knows what will happen in the courtroom, no matter what evidence is presented. Plea-bargains always include lesser fines, and typically probation in lieu of quite a bit of the fine. I might also add that editorial writers everywhere would have a field day (aka criticize the protective laws and their enforcement) if a million dollar fine were levied against someone for digging up plants. But the single biggest enforcement problem is catching the miscreants in the first place. Unless the agents are acting on a tip or are monitoring sites known to be favored by poachers, it's like seeking a needle in a haystack to locate someone in the act of poaching. If they succeed, they might have what is mentioned above to look forward to at trial. It's a difficult problem, and it seems to me that policing ourselves might be a good place to start--before you acquire a coveted plant, ask for evidence that it is was legally obtained or cultivated in the first place. The cactus-succulent people are going through some soul-searching right now in that regard--all specimens of the new cacti Geohintonia mexicana and Aztekium hintonii have illegal origins, yet they are now offered freely by many nurseries in the US. Purchasing such plants only encourages poaching and "laundering," but the temptation is very strong for those who support the law in principal but still want the coolest plant in the business to grace their collections. Tough to make a case for protection when the people who benefit from it most directly don't set the example. Sean Barry ################### From: flaneps@hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 12:37:57 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:37:55 Subject: Re: CITES thoughts I don't often post, and usually don't like to get into opinion areas that are political, but I must admit to not being a big fan of CITES either. It doesn't seem to be very effective at times, and it can be arbitrary. If you haven't read it yet, may I recommend "Orchid Fever". The author takes an interesting, humorous look at orchid people (such as an AOS Judging), describing it as an arcane world of the obsessed and eccentric. Of course, people who grow carnivorous plants are NOTHING like that....are we? The real gist of the book concerns CITES. It does not withhold names to protect the innocent, guilty or power trippers. In the book, his case and point is Paphiopedilum sanderianum. Today, it would be Paphiopedilum vietnamense, a very worthwhile plant for any Paph grower, but illegal as heck! These plants are available, however. CITES prevents me from ever having one because of the punishment/fines. It did not stop collecting from the wild, and, in fact, the plants available are not collected, but raised from seed. Some are even the result of crossing select forms onto each other for "horticulturally superior" size, shape and color. They're all illegal, because Paphiopedilum vietnamense should not be in cultivation(according to CITES). Sorry, but that's arbitrary. The Taiwan orchid growers wouldn't have them in their catalogs if someone wasn't buying them (it won't be me). I'm a firm believer in conservation, but this is really more bureaucracy than effective species protection and management. There's got to be a better way than the current CITES status. Okay. I'm strapping on my bullet proof vest, planting both feet firmly on the ground, and ready for the onslaught... Until later, Trent Meeks Pompano Beach, Florida Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: CALIFCARN@aol.com Tue Jan 22 12:57:51 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:57:40 EST Subject: Re: Plain Jane Cultivars Hey kids, Peter here at California Carnivores...... There is apparently still a lot a confusion about cultivars, and I certainly can't claim to understand the whole situation. However, all this chit chat about cultivars having to be beautiful and exceptional and down-right extraordinary is something from the orchid mindset, not the rules that govern carnivorous plants. If this were so, the dozens upon dozens of plants in my book The Savage Garden, to which I adhered "nicknames" and double quotation marks (as opposed to single quote marks to indicate a true cultivar) would not be required to be registered as cultivated varieties, but they are, according to Jan and the rules that govern us. (I wrote The Savage Garden under the orchid system, and discussion of this subject first appeared on the listserver as my book was in press). As Barry recently told me, any plant in fairly common occurence in cultivation should be registered as a cultivar,and it has nothing to do with exceptional qualities. Thus we have Drosera 'Cuba', D. 'giant', and all the rest. Most of the plants in my book have not yet been registered, although will be eventually, by myself or others. As all of you who have been on this listserver for several years know, I much prefer the orchid system, but I gave up arguing the subject. I have never spoken with a single CP enthusiast who agrees with the current system. While Jan defends the system emphatically, I honestly don't know if he agrees with it either, but he has been formost in organizing the chaos. Seeya. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 13:52:42 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:52:40 +0000 Subject: petiolaris leaf cuttings/cpn index hello, there is (at least) one article in the cpn that reports success with propagation by leaf cuttings. it is i think this one: Curtis Yax (1989) Propagating Drosera dilato-petiolaris CPN 18(1):11. Keywords: cultivation: Drosera dilato-petiolaris Species: Drosera dilato-petiolaris Notes: 2 references if you do not have access to this article email me privately and i'll dig it up and give you the specifics. i should *stress* that i know of no subsequent report of success with leaf cuttings, and that many growers have never had it work, myself included. many have had better luck with cutting a plant in half along the vertical axis so that there are 2 portions with roots. i want to point out (for general interest) that the cpn index is now completely up to date. if you want to find all articles in which d. petiolaris is mentioned, you can, by going to the icps website, clicking "our journal", and then clicking "index" or "search the index" or whatever it is. you can search for any author, species, genus, or keyword. i think this is a fantastic resource. i did a very small amount of work on this but i hope everyone will appreciate john brittnacher's hard work on this amazing feature. (he did the VAST majority of the work). john is too modest to seek recognition for all the great improvements we've seen in seedbank management and this index, inter alia. thanks john!!!!!!! ---mike Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 22 14:52:39 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:51:04 +0000 Subject: Re: Tuberous sundews dormancy period Hi, > >>I also have some D.auriculata seedlings (seed from the ICPS >>seedbank),and would like to know the appropriate dates of dormancy >>for tuberous sundews in the northern hemisphere. I mean, when should >>dormancy start and when should it finish.. > >Try to delay dormancy as long as possible by keeping the plants cool. >If they go dormant too soon they will not have large enough tubers to >survive. They may not have formed any at all! > Keeping the plants cool will certainly delay the onset of dormancy, though photoperiod seems to play a part in determining when the plants will go dormant as well. Keeping them cool in hot weather is of course only easy if your greenhouse is air conditioned. Naturally all Englishmen are affluent enough to be able to afford such luxuries.... ;-) Generally speaking though, you will not have much say in when your plants go dormant as they will decide for you. You certainly should not force dormancy by drying plants out as this can lead to small immature tubers that may not survive the summer dormancy. >At least for D. auriculata, you don't want them to go dormant any >more than they have to. I have plants that have not gone dormant for >over a year. There is a picture of them taken in the middle of >summer on the ICPS web site: > Agreed there. Same goes for D. peltata. These species tend to be more opportunistic than most tuberous species. I have had seedlings that have grown through the entire summer and have flowered in their first year. Given the usual very slow growth rate of tuberous Drosera seedlings this is something to be marvelled at. :-) Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: Miguel.deSalas@utas.edu.au Tue Jan 22 15:21:41 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:23:28 +1100 Subject: Re: Tuberous sundews dormancy period Phil, and others, I find that seedlings of Drosera peltata forms and D. auriculata will often grow through their forst summer if kept wet, until they put out 2 -4 flowers in a small plant. However, mature plants tend to be much better coordinated in when they become dormant. In my situation all my mature plants go dormant pretty much within a 3 week period, and regardless of temperature. As you point out, D. peltata and auriculata are more opportunistic than most other tuberous Drosera, and they will take advantage of wet, cool summers. What you often find in the wild here in Tasmania, especially this year (coldets, wettest summer on record), is that while most plants went dormant in December, a few seem to have less strict requirements and keep growing and flowering into late summer. Since plants go dormant or survive in very similar habitats, I suspect this is genetic, but short of uprooting them and growing them under controlled conditions (which I am not prepared to do), this is probably hard to prove. By comparison, D. macrantha, which shares habitat with both D. peltata and D. auriculata, always seems to go dormant in september, when temperatures are still very cool. They are probably responding to the photoperiod. Cheers! Miguel de Salas Ph: 03 6226 2624 Fax: 03 62262693 School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 22 15:29:39 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:27:53 +0000 Subject: Re: Trent`s VFT killing In message <429165.1011554253667.JavaMail.root@bushtv-java-2.server.telinco.net>, david ahrens writes > >Actually, it`s compulsory, in order to gain membership to the mailing >list, to kill a venus fly trap. You will also have to roll, naked, in a >bed of stinging nettles. Dave, Actually, no one has ever had to do that except you. Didn't anyone ever tell you it was a trick? -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 22 16:02:30 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:00:58 +0000 Subject: Re: Tuberous sundews dormancy period Marcus, >> >> For starters, I can't think of any evolutionary reason why >> photoperiod sensitivity would be selected for with respect to >> dormancy in these species. > >I can't think of any evolutionary reason why photoperiod sensitivity would >be selected to trigger gemmae production in pygmies. Still, this appears to >be the way it is. >That's why I asked for experiences with that. Thanks for the answer! > I can think of at least one good evolutionary reason why dormancy may be triggered by photoperiod. These are winter growing plants and they have to prepare for the hot dry summer period. Presumably the best way to prepare for the summer is to begin dormancy before the hot dry weather arrives. The obvious and most reliable trigger would be the day length. In cultivation at least, the period when the plant is entering dormancy is critical to its survival over the coming summer. The soil needs to dry slowly as the stolon gradually recedes to the tuber, presumably transferring food reserves to it from the rest of the plant. If the soil is dried too quickly this does not happen. Presumably something similar applies to plants growing in the wild. So a dormancy trigger that precedes the arrival of hot weather would be useful perhaps? In my experience (I've been growing tuberous Drosera for close on ten years now!) different species will go dormant at different times. For instance, D. bulbosa goes dormant for me around late February - early March, whereas D. gigantea will only just be making full growth by then. I'm not saying that photoperiod is the only trigger. In fact I think its far more complicated than that. I am sure for instance that some species will go dormant as soon after finishing flowering. I remember this happening with some pygmies as well. Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: voodoodancer@hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 18:19:20 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:19:17 -0500 Subject: IMPORTANT...PLEASE READ I posted this message about two weeks ago and I only received a few signed petitions. Everybody who reads this please take five minutes to fill out the petition and send it back to me. We should all be working together to save these plants. Please everyone who loves and grows CP?s needs to read this and please respond. It has come to my attention that the swamp where more species of carnivorous plants grows is in trouble. The Greenswamp in North Carolina is being destroyed. We need to come together and stand up to save these plants. The most immediate threat is a huge landfill that is being planned right in the middle of the swamp. I have a petition that is being circulated by the Swamp Watch Action Team. I beg everyone of you please sign. You can either mail it back to me or you mail it back to the Swamp Watch Action Team. Let me tell you what exactly is going on. I am from the green swamp area but I moved to another state early last year. I went home last week and I found out about the landfill. I also found out that the dump is planned to be 300 ft high and it is going to be built on a site that has numerous CP?s including VFT?s and sarracenia flava. These plants will be killed by the construction of this dump and who knows how many more will be killed by the run off. If you want to see pics of the plants on the site of the landfill go to http://www.geocities.com/greenswamp211/greenswamp.htm I received a letter from the co-founder of The Swamp Watch Action Team, and I?d like to include part of it : ? Mark, Testing has been a nightmare since the beginning. The state claimed they did not know how to test for the 23 different herbicides and tank mixes they use in the swamp until the compounds had had time to break down into other chemicals. When they finally got their act together some 9 months later, they tested for only five of the original herbicides, not the breakdown components. We later learned they had spent 5 years sampling groundwater over the state and released the results in 97, showing 27% of the wells were contaminated with pesticides. 14 of these pesticides were illegal in any amount because they were not health-based regulated. The Green Swamp has all but been destroyed. The practices used by the pulpwood companies don't even approach being the Best Management Practices that are required for their exemption from the Clean Water Act. We tend to call them pulpwood because they're not really growing timber out there, it's more of a genetic trash. There are many laws in place to protect the area but they've been ignored by the people in power. I believe things are getting ready to change, though. The landfill, on land owned by the paper company, has outraged a good many people and we're making headway in getting them to realize how sick we all are. Had you heard that NC is getting ready to legalize aerial pesticide spraying over everything, including schools, churches, day cares, hospitals, homes -- literally everything. We're working on a state wide effort asking for a ban rather than a legal residue. I 'd love to know where you got your sample. Did you see any places where they'd dug too deep and hit groundwater? There are miles of clear blue water running out the swamp now. It's even beginning to show up at our place on Town Creek. Ever think you'd see Town Creek water blue green? We're working on our county commissioners from the angle of the swamp being the 2nd greatest source of freshwater in North America and second in biodiversity only to the Rain Forest in Central America. This swamp is an important place. It's dying and so are the people who live in its shadow. I met a man last week who works at one of the chemical plants. He had just left a doctor who told him his lungs were black. This man has never smoked, hates the stuff, and knows 3 other men working there with the same condition -- one of them now with cancer. Doctor says it's not caused by smoking and stay away from that plant. There's no telling how many others are in the same condition. We have 1125% times the expected rate of Guillain Barre Syndrome (total paralysis in 4 hours, much like a stroke) and children dying from unknown causes. We have more than the 1 out of 2 men with cancer and a vet technician told me last week that it's quite common to have dogs come in with seizures. If they can't control them with drugs (which either make the dog sleepy or uncoordinated), they put them down. My tech was young and thought that was the pretty much the norm. No way, though. I grew up with dogs, never been without one and I've never even heard of a dog having seizures unless it'd had a head injury. I will attach a petition form as a Word document. The petition signatures will most definitely be a big help. Wonder if you could get the International Society to enter a plea on behalf of the canivorous plants? That just might carry some weight. If they agree, I'd appreciate having a copy for our records. The application is now pending with the Corps of Engineers and the Div of Water Quality. I'd have to let you know which agency to send it to when they decide whether they're going to deny it now or drag it out. When we whip the landfill, we're going after the toxic spraying and the draining in the swamp. And along the way, we're trying to clean up some industrial polluters as well. Gean Gean M. Seay, Co-Founder Swamp Watch Action Team As you can see there is more at stake then carnivorous plants. I know that this issue is a little more personal for me than it is for you, but we cannot sit back and watch this swamp and our plants be destroyed. There are 14 different species of carnivorous plants in the Green swamp and the Green swamp is the only place on earth that Venus Flytraps grow. I?m going to include two websites that can explain this better that I can. Please take the time to look at them. And I?m also going to include the petition. Please sign it and get as many signatures you can. You can email it back to me at Voodoodancer@hotmail.com or you can mail it, email me for the address. The websites are: http://ccsenc.freeservers.com/custom3.html http://www.geocities.com/greenswamp211/greenswamp.htm Here?s the petition: To Whom It May Concern: There is no justification for burying garbage on a thin sheet of plastic in the middle of the Green Swamp, the site of North America?s 2nd greatest source of fresh water. There is no sane reason for placing millions of tons of toxin-laden garbage in an area subject to contaminate two aquifers supplying most of the water to eastern North Carolina or in an area equaled in biodiversity only by the Great Tropical Rain Forest of Central America. 22? of rain fell in the Green Swamp over a 24-hour period in the mid ?80s and caused no significant flooding. Only 20? of rain fell over 48 hours during Hurricane Floyd and created flash floods cresting over 23 feet. With the presence of increased and enhanced industrial draining, the Green Swamp is destined to once again be the source of colossal flooding in the near future, capable of sending its swirling destruction in any direction depending on wind and sheet flow ? certainly not a suitable site for a hundred-acre mountain of garbage almost 300 feet tall. THEREFORE, we the undersigned, believe it is in the best interest of the general public that the Green Swamp be restored and protected, not made the home of a regional dump. NameAddress: (Street, city, state, zip) Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: Andrew.Gibbons@sci.monash.edu.au Tue Jan 22 18:44:57 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:44:39 +1100 Subject: Do pygmies use Viagra? Hi all, The other day I was looking through my pygmy Drosera when I noticed some strange flowers (Sorry, no pictures). In amongst the D. closterostigma was a plant with 2 stems with both the open flowers possessing 6 petals instead of the usual 5. The plant next to it had also had 2 stems one of which had a 6 petalled flower and one of which had a 5 petalled flower. The plants were all grown from gemmae of the same clone last winter. The last few days have been pretty overcast here so I haven't had a chance to see whether successive flowers also have 6 petals. Does this species usually show this amount of variability within clones?!! Melbourne's summer has been quite cool this year and I've also recently moved so that may have had something to do with it. I'll take some gemmae from them this winter just in case. As well as that, one of the D.pulchella (the usual pink form) had a double flower. Growing from one stalk were two rows of 5 petals, with double the amount of stamens and two ! stigma growing out of what looked like a fused ovary. Has anyone ever seen anything like either of these two flowers? Andrew ################### From: meadowview@pitcherplant.org Tue Jan 22 19:06:56 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:03:24 -0800 Subject: Re: more research articles available on-line - HOT ANTHOCYANIN Hi Folks: We now have two of our peer reviewed research articles available for you to read on-line at our web site at www.pitcherplant.org (under the Papers section of RESEARCH). Both of these articles were probably hard for most of you to obtain copies of and they contain significant information. The first paper is "Anthocyanidins of Sarracenia L. Flowers and Leaves" published in 2001 in HortScience and the other is "Presence of proanthocyanidins in mutant green Sarracenia indicate blockage in late anthocyanin biosynthesis between leucocyanidin and pseudobase" published in 1998 in Plant Science. We obtained permission to post articles on the web from both publishers. What is the significance of these papers? The Plant Science paper demonstrates where the green mutant is blocked in the anthocyanin pathway, highlights a testing method for confirming whether you have a green mutant, provides strong support for anthocyanin as the red pigment in Sarracenia, and proposes an anthocyanin biochemical pathway in the Sarracenia genus (with accompanying figure). The HortScience paper characterizes the actual anthocyanidins found in the leaves and flowers of Sarracenia. Of note: 1.) Sarracenia rubra and S. leucophylla petals contain a SINGLE anthocyanidin, cyanidin. Sarracenia rubra elutions were particularly remarkable with a beautiful, absolutely clear single peak for the crude cyanin (the moiety with the sugar attached - in contrast cyanidin is a moiety with the sugar residue cleaved). In many red-flowered Sarracenia species we saw several peaks for the crude anthocyanin (indicating several possible configurations of sugar attachments to the basic anthocyanidin) but not so with S. rubra. Only a single species of anthocyanin in the petals of S. rubra! 2. Both S. psittacina AND S. purpurea contain Delphinidin, a blue pigment which we now report for the first time in Sarracenia. I think this discovery adds one more significant character to support phylogenies which group S. purpurea and S. psittacina. Sarracenia purpurea has a large percentage of delphinidin (44%) in its petals. 3. Cyanidin is the ONLY anthocyanidin found in the leaves of Sarracenia. Enjoy the read and contact me if you have any questions. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Meadowview ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 20:22:17 2002 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:22:15 -0600 Subject: Number of species Jan. Thank you for your post to clarify the matter. Does this actually represent the total number of species without duplications? I believe Dr. Dressler's estimate on number of orchid species was much lower. Orchid people usually use the range of 15,000 to 25,000. Some of the genus such as Dendrobium and Bublbophyllum are too huge, and I hear it is difficult for taxonomists to come up with rough estimate on number of species in both genera. On a somewhat related matter, there has been too many changes in orchid names. For an amature grower like myself, it is tough to keep up (e.g., Epidendrum cochleatum--> Encyclia cochleata--> Anacheilum cochleatum-->Prosthecia cochleata). I am sure it will be a good topic on exam. I may do this my students once I get a job at university ;) That is very interesting. Aren't they considered to be more (or less) advanced like orchids are? Yes, I was talking about ICPS, but not specifically. It was NOT my intention to discredit quality of ICPS membership, etc (I am not a member of ICPS), though. People tend to advertise some secondary aspects of societies. For example, American Orchid Society is "the" biggest orchid society." Or Japan's carnivorous society is "the" oldest. Those "facts" are interesting to know, but personally, they do not have much personal meaning or importance. This does not mean disrespect to them. AOS can be the biggest orchid society, but may be the worst when it comes to service. I know from my experience that their customer service is quite lousy. And they are really pesky on money. I think this can apply to ANY society that attach such "ornaments." maybe I should mention that I received BS and MS from "the " biggest university in US, "The" Ohio State University. Why did I end up there? I would not have chosen it if I had known the size of the school. They "used to" have a good hort. program, and that's why. They "used to." This is a very good piece of information. Thank you for sharing it with us. I hope the list will be published "soon" (sigh....). Hideka MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Tue Jan 22 21:19:44 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:48:17 +0600 Subject: N. clipeata - question for Jan Jan wrote: <> Perhaps some people who have large and valuable plants of this sort would not come forward and declare them if they knew the information was to be made public. I can think of three reasons straight off (but there may be others): Firstly, putting specific information into the public domain may well increase the risk of theft from collections. Secondly, many of the larger plants in cultivation obtained since 1979 (when Indonesia acceded to CITES), or since CITES was acceeded to by the country of import, may have been obtained in contravention of CITES regulations. Their owners would probably not want to risk future investigation. Possible future machinations of CBD are also a threat in this regard. Thirdly, many of the greatest collections may be the hands of people who are quite insular. They feel no need to publish a "growlist" or a website, preferring instead to enjoy their hobby in privacy and would not want their names associated with a published list of growers of mature *N. clipeata* or any other rare plant. If the list were not kept strictly confidential, then I believe the above three reasons alone may deter some people from stepping forward. I can see no good reason for publishing it anyway. And Jan, why not the ICPS? We're not talking about something that involves committee decisions and would take ages to implement (like IUCN recommendations to CITES!), but if it at least had the blessing of the ICPS we could use CPN to reach more people who may not be reading this list. Rob Cantley ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Tue Jan 22 21:19:54 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:30:53 +0600 Subject: Re: CITES - question for Shawn Shawn wrote: >One of the best parts of the CITES treaty is that it is NOT open to interpretation as various signatory nations might see fit,> If that's so, then why do different countries have different policies regarding requirements for documentation? For example, the UK requires that Appendix II plants be accompanied at the point of import by a CITES export permit issued by the country of origin and also a CITES import permit issued in the UK. Each permit must bear the precise number and identity of each species of plant included. The import permit cannot be issued before the UK Management Authority has sight of the export permit. You can imagine it! The whole process takes months and is so ludicrously cumbersome that it no doubt encourages smuggling. The U.S however is far more sensible, they issue a General Import Permit and so long as the plants arrive accompanied by a valid export permit detailing the plants by species and quantity, then it's all OK. The Japanese authorities are coolest of all; they require only that the plants come with an export permit, no import permit is needed. CITES, whilst well-intentioned, severely hampers trade in legitimate artificially propagated plants and thereby decreases their availability, increases their price and indirectly encourages trade in smuggled plants. If you don't believe me, try exporting a single plant of N. mirabilis (which is a roadside weed in much of Asia) from any CITES member country to England and see what hoops you have to go through and how much it costs... Rob Cantley ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 23 00:38:35 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:38:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: CITES - question for Shawn On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Borneo Exotics wrote: > > Shawn wrote: It's Sean, just as my e-mail header always says. > > >One of the best parts of the CITES treaty is that it is NOT open to > interpretation as various signatory nations might see fit,> > > If that's so, then why do different countries have different policies > regarding requirements for documentation? For example, the UK requires > that Appendix II plants be accompanied at the point of import by a CITES > export permit issued by the country of origin and also a CITES import > permit issued in the UK. That's not CITES rules--that's UK rules, and the UK may hide behind CITES but such requirements are their own paperwork-generating invention. Doubtless other CITES signatory countries are as frustrated by that as plant importers/exporters must be. > the plants by species and quantity, then it's all OK. The Japanese > authorities are coolest of all; they require only that the plants come with > an export permit, no import permit is needed. Do you mean Appendix I plants? If you don't, no import permit is required under CITES anyway. CITES requires import permits for wild-collected Appendix I plants but not for cultivated Appendix I plants, which are treated as Appendix II. If Japan is really allowing true (collected) Appendix I plants in without an import permit, then they're not interpreting CITES, they're violating it. > CITES, whilst well-intentioned, severely hampers trade in legitimate > artificially propagated plants and thereby decreases their availability, > increases their price and indirectly encourages trade in smuggled I'm really not upset to hear that CITES inconveniences plant exporters and importers, and in any case you have cited just one bureaucracy (the UK) rather than CITES as a source of inconvenience. CITES is far more than "well intentioned," it's the only thing that prevents ruthless exploitation of many endangered plant and animal species. As has been pointed out several times by others on this listserve the past few days, it has apparently stopped international exploitation of wild Nephenthes rajah and N. khasiana populations. I don't believe for a minute that the widespread availability of cultivated plants of those species has stopped exploitation, particularly in light of the would-be European Dioanaea smuggler. If you insist instead that CITES has increased illegal collecting and smuggling over what they were prior to its enactment, I ask that you prove it. Sean Barry ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Wed Jan 23 01:25:58 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:25:58 +0100 Subject: Re: Plain Jane Cultivars Dear Peter, > As all of > you who have been on this listserver for several years know, I > much prefer the orchid system, but I gave up arguing the > subject. There seems to be some confusion about real and supposed differences between an "orchid system" and a "cp system". With the exception of greges (that may be used only in orchid horticultural nomenclature to define groups of cultivars according to nothing but their hybrid origin), there is absolutely no difference in the rules governing the nomenclature of cultivars. They are all laid down in the ICNCP that applies to any and all plant cultivars (incl. orchids, cps, and *all* other plants of horticultural or agricultural interest). > I have never spoken with a single CP enthusiast who > agrees with the current system. Not true. You have spoken with me in the past. I am a cp enthusiast. I agree with the current system. BTW, I did not *invent* the rules (ICNCP), I just would like the cp community to know about these rules, and I do invite the cp community to participate in this global naming convention because I think it makes life easier if you know what you are talking about. I defend a system that requires proper (and published) definition of names previous to their use. And I am obviously not the first one here; "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen." (L.Wittgenstein) > While Jan defends the system emphatically, I honestly don't know > if he agrees with it either, v.s. The system is certainly not perfect (it is man-made, after all), but at the moment I do not see a better alternative. Do you have one? > but he has been formost in organizing the chaos. Yes, because organized chaos (with at least descriptions and standards available to the public) is still better than unorganized ignorance and confusion. Kind regards Jan ################### From: h7n@hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 03:13:36 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:13:34 Subject: Re: CITES No no no no no, please don't propose any more CPs to CITES. We want to preserve them, not drive them into extinction. If a country is unable to detect and eliminate collection of its endangered plants, there's absolutely no point in confiscating them when they're in the process of being shipped abroad because they'll either be destroyed on passed on to a botanic institute which in all likelihood can't use them to best advantage and certainly won't spread material around to private enthusiasts who can. NigelH Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: h7n@hotmail.com Wed Jan 23 03:19:09 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:19:05 Subject: Smallest CPs There's been some discussion on the largest CPs, but small is beautiful so how about submitting a list of the smallest to The Guiness Book of Records? My starter - smallest drosera, either D. occidentalis or D pygmaea. Smallest pitcher plant - Cephalotus (or can a Nepenthes beat it)? The smallest butterwort I have is P lusitanica, can anyone suggest a smaller one? And what's the smallest bladderwort? I seem to remember a US species being rare in cultivation, mainly because it is so small that most people overlook it. NigelH (And yes, I've just got my December CPN) Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Wed Jan 23 06:21:51 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:21:50 +0100 Subject: Re: Number of genera Dear Hideka, > Does this actually represent the total number of species without > duplications? This returns us to the question what is a species, I am afraid. Valid names are those that are published in conformity with the ICBN. This does not say anything about how widely they are accepted among taxonomists. The number of accepted species is subject to taxonomic opinion, so no standardized figure can be given here. Generic limits tend to be more widely accepted, and the following ranking is obtained by comparison of valid generic names: 1.(was 2. by species) Asteraceae (ca. 1100) 2.(1.) Orchidaceae (ca. 1000) 3.(4.) Poaceae (ca. 500) 4.(3.) Rubiaceae (ca. 450) 5.(5.) Fabaceae (ca. 430) 6.(17.!) Brassicaceae (ca. 350) 7.(16.!) Apiaceae (ca. 300) 8.(6.) Euphorbiaceae (ca. 300) 9.(8.) Acanthaceae (ca. 250) 10.(20.) Asclepiadaceae (ca. 250) 11-15.(7-26.) Lamiaceae, Apocynaceae, Melastomataceae, Cactaceae, Arecaceae (ca. 200 ea.) 16.(10.) Scrophulariaceae (ca. 190) (For comparison, the largest cp family Lentibulariaceae, asterid of course, with 3 genera and ca. 300 spp. is at ranks 166-175 by spp. and 344-403 by genera) Total of all genera: 14100, i.e. the largest 10 families contain 33% of all generic plant diversity. With the exception of Brassicaceae and Apiaceae (both families have a predominantly temperate distribution and comparatively fewer species:genus; NB there are more taxonomists than species in the temperate zone, and this ratio is reversed at more tropical latitudes), the general trends seen already in the species ranking are reproduced with generic counts. There is certainly a problem of inhomogeneous interest/awareness. The names:known diversity ratio is clearly better for popular plants such as orchids, cacti, bromeliads (and cps, for that matter) than for boring stuff like Rubiaceae (their alkaloids are another cup of coffea) or Cyperaceae (almost nobody would care if someone discovered a yet more inconspicuous species of _Carex_, even if it was registered in a book of records as the most unspectacular plant of all times). > I believe Dr. Dressler's estimate on number of orchid species > was much lower. Orchid people usually use the range of 15,000 to 25,000. > Some of the genus such as Dendrobium and Bublbophyllum are too huge, and I > hear it is difficult for taxonomists to come up with rough estimate on > number of species in both genera. The same is true for most asteracean microspecies names that are rarely used by anyone else but the describing authors. But this is a species definition problem. > On a somewhat related matter, there has been too many changes in orchid > names. For an amature grower like myself, it is tough to keep up (e.g., > Epidendrum cochleatum--> Encyclia cochleata--> Anacheilum > cochleatum-->Prosthecia cochleata). I think this kind of duplication is excluded because new combinations based on the same type were not included in the count. > > > That is very interesting. Aren't they considered to be more (or less) > advanced like orchids are? Good question (and so exquisitely off-topic, too). Monocots are now regarded most closely related to the angiosperm "base-group" or the "monosulcate clade" that includes some of the most "primitive" families formerly included in the dicots. Thus, monocots as a whole can be regarded of more primitive origin than the higher (true) dicots. Orchids are, however, a fairly young family within a moderately derived monocot group now most commonly called Asparagales (although this large group is rather a subclass than just an order). Thus, while Asteraceae are one of the youngest (and most "derived") families of the most derived true dicot subclass Asteridae, this family is probably not much younger than Orchidaceae (or, more precisely, most of the species of the respective families are of comparable age and degree of "advancedness"). > here (the note in parentheses might suggest so).> > > Yes, I was talking about ICPS, but not specifically. It was NOT my intention > to discredit quality of ICPS membership, etc (I am not a member of ICPS), > though. I have no problem with your statements on membership size and quality but it is definitely *not* true that the ICPS was trying to build a $10 million headquarter. Never. This was not sufficiently clear in your original message. Kind regards Jan ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Wed Jan 23 08:24:43 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:24:30 EST Subject: Re: CITES - question for Shawn << As has been pointed out several times by others on this listserve the past few days, it has apparently stopped international exploitation of wild Nephenthes rajah and N. khasiana populations. >> I really dont think CITES had a lot to do with this. N. khasiana has been widely available in cultivation for a century or so. There is no need to protect it from commercial exploitation, because cultivated plants are readily available. There is a need to protect its last remaining wild sites, but placing restrictions on trade is not going to solve that problem. It can only be solved in the same way N. rajah was; by placing it's habitat under the control of a park system, and strictly controlling access to the area. N. rajah's commercial expoitation was not saved by CITES, it was reduced by comercial mass propagation and availability. But cheap commercial availability will still not stop someone from wild collecting. That can only be done by protecting a plant's habitat. They can take N. rajah off of CITES altogether, and its future in the wild will still be secure. But if they remove N. rajahs habitat from protection, all the regulations in the world will not stop the removal of these plants. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 23 08:46:33 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:46:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: CITES On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, nigel hurneyman wrote: > > No no no no no, please don't propose any more CPs to CITES. We want to > preserve them, not drive them into extinction. Well, I'm still waiting for an example of any species, plant or animal, that has been "driven to extinction" by CITES or any other protective law. I'd even settle for a proven example of a species whose status in the wild deteriorated as a result of CITES. On the other hand, I can cite dozens of examples of species whose seeming unstoppable trajectory toward extinction was stopped in its tracks by CITES, ESA, and the Marine Mammal Protection Act, not to mention dozens of state endangered species protective laws. > If a country is unable to detect and eliminate collection of its > endangered plants, there's absolutely no point in confiscating them > when they're in the process of being shipped abroad because they'll > either be destroyed on passed on to a botanic institute which in all > likelihood can't use them to best advantage and certainly won't spread > material around to private enthusiasts who can. That's a chance I'm willing to take, and I'm amazed that you would suggest that established botanic institutions "can't use [endangered plants] to best advantage." If species conservation is to be entrusted to private collectors instead of to habitat protection plans and to organizations with proven track records and facilities that will outlast generations, we may as well say goodbye now--realistically, what will happen to most private collections when the collectors are gone or have lost interest? You'd also apparently be surprised how many botanic institutions willingly share very rare material with the private sector, whether through plant sales or outright gifts. That's how I've obtained some of my very best and healthiest specimens--I hope I am able to care for them as well as the institutions that couldn't "use them to best advantage" did. Sean Barry ################### From: Cokendolpher@aol.com Wed Jan 23 09:53:30 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 12:53:21 EST Subject: CITES and "coming clean" I have extracted a paragraph from another message on "N. clipeata - question for Jan" and start it here as new. In a message dated 1/22/02 11:28:03 PM, nepenthes@borneoexotics.com writes: >Secondly, many of the larger plants in cultivation obtained since 1979 >(when Indonesia acceded to CITES), or since CITES was acceeded to by the >country of import, may have been obtained in contravention of CITES >regulations. Their owners would probably not want to risk future >investigation. Possible future machinations of CBD are also a threat in >this regard. That is an interesting point. Is there a way in which an illegally obtained plant can become "clean" without the current owner being held accountable? For example, if a person has a collection of endangered plants that are illegal and that person no longer wants them (tires of the hobby, has a guilty conscience, dies, etc.) is there a way to dispose (without destroying) of the plants and not get in legal trouble? Surely such a remedy exists at least for the disposition of an estate after death. Of course this will not help in the above example where the owner probably wants to retain the illegal plant in their collection. James ################### From: mr30@st-andrews.ac.uk Wed Jan 23 10:39:13 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 18:41:07 -0000 Subject: Re: Tuberous sundews dormancy period Phil, > I can think of at least one good evolutionary reason why dormancy may be > triggered by photoperiod. These are winter growing plants and they have > to prepare for the hot dry summer period. Presumably the best way to > prepare for the summer is to begin dormancy before the hot dry weather > arrives. The obvious and most reliable trigger would be the day length. ~~snip~~ > I'm not saying that photoperiod is the only trigger. In fact I think its > far more complicated than that. I am sure for instance that some species > will go dormant as soon after finishing flowering. This all sounds very reasonable. Thanks, Marcus ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Wed Jan 23 11:22:07 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:17:19 -0500 Subject: RE: CITES and "coming clean" We are a registered USDA rescue station for orchids. In other words when orchids are confiscated by customs, we receive the plants after they are cleared. I am getting the paper work together so we can modify our permit to accept CP, aroids and a few others. I am not sure if we receive plants confiscated only in Michigan, or if we receive plants from other states as well. One problem with this system is the treatment of the plants. A few years ago we received some rare Philippine orchids that were confiscated by customs. By the time we received them they were completely desiccated and very few survived. I am afraid that any CP's I may receive from customs in the future will be completely dead. Many orchids can deal with drought for a period of time. Anyway, I guess the point is, the plants we receive are then "clean", even if they are CITES I. We just can't sell them for profit. So... If anyone would like to donate a large, pre 1979, wild collected N. clipeata to Frederik Meijer Gardens, I would be happy to take good care of it (can you see me smiling?) Steve -----Original Message----- I have extracted a paragraph from another message on "N. clipeata - question for Jan" and start it here as new. In a message dated 1/22/02 11:28:03 PM, nepenthes@borneoexotics.com writes: >Secondly, many of the larger plants in cultivation obtained since 1979 >(when Indonesia acceded to CITES), or since CITES was acceeded to by the >country of import, may have been obtained in contravention of CITES >regulations. Their owners would probably not want to risk future >investigation. Possible future machinations of CBD are also a threat in >this regard. That is an interesting point. Is there a way in which an illegally obtained plant can become "clean" without the current owner being held accountable? For example, if a person has a collection of endangered plants that are illegal and that person no longer wants them (tires of the hobby, has a guilty conscience, dies, etc.) is there a way to dispose (without destroying) of the plants and not get in legal trouble? Surely such a remedy exists at least for the disposition of an estate after death. Of course this will not help in the above example where the owner probably wants to retain the illegal plant in their collection. James ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Wed Jan 23 13:50:15 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:50:03 EST Subject: Re: IMPORTANT...PLEASE READ Mark and List, The problem with cyber-petitions, according to sites such as www.snopes.com , is that they are of dubious value. This is usually because people e-mail you petitions that are way outdated but I imagine they also lose value not being your actual signature. Wouldn't it be more valid to print out the petition, sign and date it and mail it? Has any of the other East Coast CP people heard anything about this? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 23 14:10:06 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:10:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: CITES - question for Shawn, last time And once again, it's Sean On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 MCATALANI@aol.com wrote: > I really dont think CITES had a lot to do with this [preserving N. > rajah and N. khasiana]. N. khasiana has been widely available in > cultivation for a century or so. There is no need to protect it from > commercial exploitation, because cultivated plants are readily > available. Once again, the European Dionaea collector pretty much shoots that idea down. If he felt it worthwhile and sufficiently risk-free to collect in North Carolina and to move 3000 specimens of a species that is pervasively cultivated for sale at less than $5.00 retail each (despite the $500 per plant potential fine), why should we believe that the considerably lower availability of rather expensive cultivated Asian pitcher plants automatically stops their exploitation? Many of the people that raid plant colonies take the entire colony and are glad to sell the few that survive after a few days of transport and storage. "Awareness" and "conscience" are not relevant terms, let alone the fine points of cultivated plant availability as it relates to supply and demand. Hit them repeatedly over the head with international law and they might find some other line of work. > There is a need to protect > its last remaining wild sites, but placing restrictions on trade is > not going to solve that problem. Nor is it meant to--habitat protection is the responsibility of the nation-state, and the absence of habitat protection is not a reason to withhold protection from international trade. If anything, it's a really good reason to intensify protection from trade. The entire point of CITES is to extend across international boundaries whatever protections that governments do accord to exploited native species. Before CITES, nations were helpless to enforce their own laws once specimens were exported (i.e., smuggled out). Are you advocating a return to that state of affairs? > N. rajah's commercial expoitation was not saved by CITES, it was > reduced by comercial mass propagation and availability. Again, please prove that with real data. It seems to me that you're just repeating what others have said, also without offering any hard data. That N. rajah is widely cultivated doesn't prove a thing. > But cheap commercial availability will still not stop someone from wild > collecting. You said the opposite just above, though what you say here is quite true--ask the Dionaea collector from Europe. That can only be done by protecting a plant's habitat. > They can take N. rajah off of CITES altogether, and its future in > the wild will still be secure. That is, until a change of the political winds causes the government to question why they've locked up all that land that could be used for houses or agriculture or oil exploration or country clubs, always more politically popular than protecting plants. Bulldozers will make really quick work of the remaining N. rajah colonies, but I guess we wouldn't need to care because it's widely cultivated. > But if they remove N. rajahs > habitat from protection, all the regulations in the world will not > stop the removal of these plants. Agreed, but CITES will continue to curtail international shipments. International sales (to places like the US and the UK) are where the real money is. I'm sure the CP subscribership that is still reading these messages is pretty well fed up, so I'll stop there on the CITES/ESA issue. Everyone here knows my opinion..... Sean Barry ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 23 14:21:36 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:21:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Conference in Japan Hey folks, Incidentally, I've learned that a field trip that may be associated with the next conference in Japan will be a trip to a greenhouse facility. This greenhouse is supposedly filled with many varieties of Byblis. This would be extremely interesting to see. I don't know how certain this possibility is, by the way. Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Wed Jan 23 16:33:56 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:33:48 EST Subject: Re: CITES - question for Shawn, last time In a message dated 1/23/2002 4:19:35 PM Central Standard Time, sjbarry@ucdavis.edu writes: > Once again, the European Dionaea collector pretty much shoots that idea > down. If he felt it worthwhile and sufficiently risk-free to collect in > North Carolina and to move 3000 specimens of a species that is pervasively > cultivated for sale at less than $5.00 retail each (despite the $500 per > plant potential fine), why should we believe that the considerably lower > availability of rather expensive cultivated Asian pitcher plants > automatically stops their exploitation? CITES has failed to prevent plants such as S. alabamensis, S. jonesii, and S. oreophila from being exploited to the point of extinction. Sorry, I am not a big fan. It has not worked with CP. Placing further restrictions on law-abiding people is not the way to go. You're not going to stop poaching by placing restrictions on trade. It doesnt matter if these plants are free, someone will still rip them out of the wild. CITES and international law will not stop that. Enforcing laws which make it illegal to remove the plant from the wild will. If it is enforced. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Wed Jan 23 17:35:34 2002 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 20:35:04 -0500 Subject: Re: CITES - question for Shawn, last time > > > And once again, it's Sean > > > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 MCATALANI@aol.com wrote: > > > > I really dont think CITES had a lot to do with this [preserving N. > > rajah and N. khasiana]. N. khasiana has been widely available in > > cultivation for a century or so. There is no need to protect it from > > commercial exploitation, because cultivated plants are readily > > available. > > Once again, the European Dionaea collector pretty much shoots that idea > down. If he felt it worthwhile and sufficiently risk-free to collect in > North Carolina and to move 3000 specimens of a species that is pervasively > cultivated for sale at less than $5.00 retail each (despite the $500 per > plant potential fine), why should we believe that the considerably lower > availability of rather expensive cultivated Asian pitcher plants I have never been to India in the range of N. khasiana but, there is a swelling population and the land has been tilled over for agriculture. N. khasiana was one of the first, if not the first Nepenthes in cultivation. The demand for this plant would never match that of N. rajah which was field collected regardless of Cites in a protected park. You cannot compare N. khasiana with N. rajah, in the habitat. N. rajah will have a habitat if things remain static, N. khasiana will not. N. khasiana and Dionaea are both falling victims to the same problem, loss of habitat. I have seen Dionaea in habitat since the early 70's and 3,000 or 5,000 Dionaea growing in a roadside ditch is nothing, it is not a large group of plants- at least in the late 70's. I have seen many times that number plowed under to widen US 17 just north of Myrtle Beach SC up to Wilmington You could have stopped along the major north south route on the SC/NC state line and seen Dionaea in the man made drainage ditches. It is logic that makes sense for commercial propagated plants verse field collected stock in mass numbers, its that simple. I believe Sean Barry mentions the chaos with the rare new cactus species in Mexico. Mexico is a nightmare regarding all plant material. Slow -slow growing cactus are easy targets to field collecting in mass regardless of how rare a species is. This is not Dionaea, and loss of habitat is now in 2002 the culprit that spells the doom of many cp. Certainly field collecting goes on, I believe there has been added "hype" about the European who was caught with the Dionaea, I know of people who collected thousands more Dionaea than he was caught with well into the 1980's, they were Americans too. Legal or not I don't know that is political, I doubt it was. Field collecting is a problem, it is worse with the shrinking range of the plants. We've had this discussion here so many times, and no one agrees on anything. Remember Pinguicula ionantha is a Cites I plant, but does anyone really think there is a commercial demand for this Ping?? When its not in bloom it looks like several other Pings in the area. Only a collector wants that plant, and its really not that rare in habitat. But the range is 5 counties and the growth boom is got a bulls-eye on the central population of P. ionantha. I looked at a piece of property in the swampy range of P. ionantha recently, not a thing around now- just swamp it was 5 acres commercial zoned for $265,000.00. The Bulldozers are bringing Wal-Mart's!! The P. ionantha will be plowed over just like the P. lutea. P.ionantha isn't a Venus Fly Trap or a Nepenthes rajah. ..Now get off my tee its time for 18 holes in the old "Carolina dark woods Bay". ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida ################### From: tnert_80_ca@yahoo.ca Wed Jan 23 21:39:10 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:38:52 -0500 Subject: Re: CITES - question for Shawn, last time > Placing further restrictions on law-abiding people is not the way to > go. You're not going to stop poaching by placing restrictions on > trade. It doesnt matter if these plants are free, someone will > still rip them out of the wild. CITES and international law will > not stop that. When did the world get so turned upside down that people cannot accept small steps? Hey, I've gotta agree.. if there werent other issues, I'd say protect every square kilometer where any rare plant or animal lives. Absolutely, the best measure that can be taken for maintaining biodiversity is habitat protection. However, as has been pointed out already, economic factors greatly effect the likelyhood of this. > Enforcing laws which make it illegal to remove the > plant from the wild will. If it is enforced. This did not seem to stop the European poaching VFTs (a story on which by now we are all well versed!), as it is this exact type of law which 'protects' VFTs. Although CITES and other laws that are designed to curtail the (international) sale of endangered species are small steps, we must accept them. If we dont, then we are saying that it's an all-or-nothing situation... 'well, if they cant be completely protected in every available manner, we might not as well protect them at all!' If this means that it is slightly harder to attain such protected species, or that they become more expensive to offset the troubles that our supplier must go through to make arrangemets, than so be it! What we are talking about in these cases is 'the cost of conservation'. Fine, you dont donate anything to the ICPS or any other organization dedicated to conservation, but every time you pay a higher price, or search a little bit harder for a CITES protected plant, you are doing your tiny part in conservation. Trent Gielau ################### From: tnert_80_ca@yahoo.ca Wed Jan 23 22:35:55 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:35:39 -0500 Subject: D. Hartmeyerorum I'm just wondering if any further information has been attained as to the function of the yellow, non-mucilaginous emergences on Drosera Hartmeyerorum? Have they been investigated under a microscope to determine if they have an internal structure that differs from that of the tentacles? Has it been determined from where these emergences are orriginating? (I imagine that they are most likely orriginating in the epidermis) On that note, just by question, from where is it that the tentacles of any Drosera orriginate? I imagine that they are from the epidermis, and secrete mucilus in the same manner that root hairs absorb nutrient, but any information on this matter would be much appreciated :) Perhaps this information has already been shared here but, being a new member to the listserve, I would have missed it :/ Trent Gielau [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 24 01:58:40 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:58:49 +0100 Subject: clipeata online information network Dear Rob, > Perhaps some people who have large and valuable plants of this sort would > not come forward and declare them if they knew the information was to be > made public. I can think of three reasons straight off (but there may be > others): > > Firstly, putting specific information into the public domain may well > increase the risk of theft from collections. So what would be the value of a message that can be received only by the sender? The ICPS can provide a public database, but we are not well prepared to keep private "secret-bases". Who should decide what data should be available to which people? > Secondly, many of the larger plants in cultivation obtained since 1979 > (when Indonesia acceded to CITES), or since CITES was acceeded to by the > country of import, may have been obtained in contravention of CITES > regulations. Their owners would probably not want to risk future > investigation. The ICPS is not entitled (nor willing, nor able) to protect outlaws from whatever legal prosecution there may be. It is difficult enough to obtain and to maintain official non-profit status, and we can *ABSOLUTELY NOT* afford to be involved in law suits resulting from illegal behaviour by some individuals. Particularly, we will not provide shelter for individuals who decide to live in conflict with conservation laws, as this would contradict our own principles. > Possible future machinations of CBD are also a threat in this regard. The ICPS will not support actions violating internationally agreed Conventions on Biological Diversity. This does not mean we welcome everything that is made by lawyers and politicians. On the contrary, we are actively trying to be involved in legislation (e.g. CITES), but we would not even be accepted as dialog partners if we were at the same time involved in illegal activities. Improve the rules wherever possible (this does include abolition if necessary), but do not break them! > Thirdly, many of the greatest collections may be the hands of people who > are quite insular. They feel no need to publish a "growlist" or a website, > preferring instead to enjoy their hobby in privacy and would not want their > names associated with a published list of growers of mature *N. clipeata* > or any other rare plant. The ICPS would not be able to drive such people into participation, either. We are a public and exposed society (striving for even more exposure), not a secret service. > If the list were not kept strictly confidential, then I believe the above > three reasons alone may deter some people from stepping forward. I can see > no good reason for publishing it anyway. So I cannot discover a good reason for the ICPS to address that issue. Our goal is to spread information, not to hide it. > And Jan, why not the ICPS? We're not talking about something that > involves committee decisions and would take ages to implement (like IUCN > recommendations to CITES!), but if it at least had the blessing of the ICPS > we could use CPN to reach more people who may not be reading this list. 1. No action in direct conflict with existing legal regulations (whether we personally think they are sufficient/accurate/sensible/useful or not) can be endorsed or protected by the ICPS. 2. With a minimum processing time of 3 months, flowering information published in CPN would be outdated before it could be printed. 3. Why should the ICPS afford (spending membership fees) using printed communication (snail mail or fax) in addition to CPN to distribute urgent data to those who still think they should afford the luxury to refuse using the internet? 4. Any effort to save rare and endangered cps by *LEGAL* means has by definition the blessing of the ICPS. This is part of our mission. We welcome any report on progress in this respect in CPN (we do, however, depend on suitable manuscripts!). 5. I cannot promise that a clipeata online information network ("COIN") will be provided, because someone with better computer skills than I would have to do the job. I suppose it is technically possible if deemed sensible, but I do not think it needs to be implemented specifically by the ICPS. Kind regards Jan PS: The above is my statement as an ICPS board-member. It does not mean to be a judgement on the quality of existing or intended legislation. ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 24 02:37:54 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:38:00 +0100 Subject: Re: D. Hartmeyerorum Dear Trent, > I'm just wondering if any further information has been attained as > to the function of the yellow, non-mucilaginous emergences on > Drosera Hartmeyerorum? I don't think so. > Have they been investigated under a > microscope to determine if they have an internal structure that > differs from that of the tentacles? Yes. They have no secretory structures, i.e. an endodermoid layer that is contiguous with the epidermis is not discernible. > Has it been determined from > where these emergences are orriginating? (I imagine that they are > most likely orriginating in the epidermis) No. They are emergences (invoving tissues below the epidermis) just like the tentacles. > On that note, just by > question, from where is it that the tentacles of any Drosera > orriginate? v.s. > I imagine that they are from the epidermis, and secrete > mucilus in the same manner that root hairs absorb nutrient, but any > information on this matter would be much appreciated :) See Juniper & al (Carnivorous Plants, AP, 1989) with many details and references on the anatomy of the tentacles. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 24 03:16:39 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:16:47 +0100 Subject: Re: Conference in Japan Dear Barry & listeners, Barry wrote: > Incidentally, I've learned that a field trip that may be associated with > the next conference in Japan will be a trip to a greenhouse facility. This > greenhouse is supposedly filled with many varieties of Byblis. This would > be extremely interesting to see. I received some dried material of a few of these plants, and they look spectacular. Nothing that you would find in the average _Byblis_ collection. If I understood it correctly, they have been bred from plants belonging to a single species, yet the differences are large enough they could be confused with different species (some of the flowers are just huge, compared to the "normal" forms!). I will be at the Tokyo conference, and I definitely look forward to seeing that _Byblis_ greenhouse if possible. (I already see the headline: "Australian carnivores more popular than African violets in Japan"). Kind regards Jan ################### From: willow@surfsouth.com Thu Jan 24 07:22:12 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:25:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Local Newspaper I have pasted below a copy of an article in today's Tallahassee Democrat. Not withstanding the recommendation to feed VFTs hamburger, there were two other interesting points. The first was to add vinegar to tap water to make it more acid and the second was to massage the traps to get the plants to accept the hamburger. I would be interested in comments. Posted on Thu, Jan. 24, 2002 Venus' flytrap is a picky eater but easy to grow By Lee Reich THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Everyone is familiar with the ominous looking leaves of the Venus' flytrap, spiked at their edges, hinged at their centers, and ready to clamp shut around unwary prey. There's little chance of a fly alighting on the leaf this time of year, so you might consider dropping in a piece of hamburger. But Venus' flytrap won't eat hamburger - without some coaxing, at least. The trap might not even close up around a piece of hamburger. It closes only if two of the usually sensitive six hairs on its surface are bent, or if one hair is touched twice. It's the kind of stimulation an insect might give walking across the trap. Even if all those hairs are just touched, the plant still might not eat the hamburger. The plant isn't a finicky eater; it just feels the same about that lump of hamburger as it does about any small stick or seed that might accidentally fall into the trap. The plant wants live food. Venus' flytrap recognizes a live catch by sensing movement within the trap for a few minutes after it clamps shut. Other than having to hunt up suitable food for the plant, you won't find Venus' flytrap difficult to grow as a houseplant. It is native to infertile, acidic bogs in North Carolina and South Carolina, so it thrives in a potting soil that is rich in sand and peat, without any lime or fertilizer added. This is one potted plant that you can leave standing in water, or even under water, for extended periods of time. If your tap water is alkaline, just add some vinegar ( 1/2 teaspoon per quart) or collect rainwater. Given humidity, a suitably poor, moist and acidic soil, and as much light as possible, a Venus' flytrap will flourish. Incidentally, you can trick the plant to eat a dead fly or hamburger by gently massaging the trap after it closes, mimicking movement of a live insect within. Bon appetit. ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Thu Jan 24 09:40:06 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:39:57 EST Subject: Re: Concerning Nepenthes clipeata Hi List, All you clipeata growers who have obtained stock from Mr. Wistuba or elsewhere: How long does it take to obtain a mature specimen from a TC plant weaned and mailed to you? I know it is not one of the faster growers, and I assume mature means flowering, doesn't it? I assume Sean's must have flowered to determine he has a male. Jan's COIN is a catchy name. Maybe some members should form it. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Thu Jan 24 10:10:23 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:05:16 -0800 Subject: Re: more research articles.../Introgression >We now have two of our peer reviewed research articles available for you to read on-line at our web site at www.pitcherplant.org ... Phil Sheridan Meadowview Hi Phil and all, I presently do not have internet access at home and will have to wait till I go to the library again to read the research. I have been studying the subject of your other research on introgression and have learned some interesting things and I've found references you might like to use. A botanist did his dissertation on the Sunflower and tells of the following: Since Darwin's time it has been known that isolation is the greatest factor leading to adaptive radiation and hybridization is far less important. This is of course true in general, but only recently findings are making it clear that in some species introgression is very important. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Thu Jan 24 10:42:36 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:24:49 +0600 Subject: Re: CITES - question for Shawn, last time Hello Shawn., Interesting debate, and anyone who doesn't want to read these messages can always skip over them. How can you make comparisons with the collection of Dionaea from a US swamp and exploitation of Nepenthes from a remote mountain in Kalimantan? Have you ever been to a place like that? Collecting Dionaea is literally a walk in the park when compared with a huge effort and expense to illegally collect N. clipeata. This species grows on inaccessible cliff faces in a dangerous country, in dangerous terrain and the people who have stolen these plants over the last 20 years have done so despite CITES regulations. I agree, that no matter what the commercial price of Dionaea, someone will probably always steal it from the wild, it's so easy. However, if N clipeata were available for a few tens of dollars, I very much doubt if many anyone would make the risky and arduous pilgimage to steal if from the wild. I'm not knocking CITES. I still believe that CITES is an important factor in conservation in that it regulates and monitors trade in endangered species of both animals and plants and has no doubt succeeded in reducing theft from habitat in the past. However, I must agree with Andreas Wistuba's opinion that artificial propagation using sterile culture techniques is making some of the current CITES regulations for CP's nearly redundant as a factor for species preservation. You still have not answered (unless I missed it) my original question regarding your assertion that CITES regulations are not open to interpretation by various signatory nations. I'm quite sure they are. You only have to read the Convention and it's numerous equally vague amendments to see the shades of gray. You ask for proof that CITES has not assisted in the preservation of easily cultivated supposedly "endangered" Nepenthes such as N. rajah and N. khasiana. CITES is funded by tax payers' money in every member country, so should it not be the onus of CITES to prove that it is succeeding in it's aims rather than asking for impossible to provide "proof" that is not? Do they publish figures of successful prosections? Anecdotal evidence about illegal colleciton of Dionaea is not entirely convincing. The primary killer of scarce wild populations of Nepenthes in Asia is undoubtedly habitat destruction and resulting climatic changes that cause drought and fires, absolutely not illegal smuggling. Not these days. Finally, with N. clipeata we are talkiing about a plant that is protected by topography of it's habitat; it grows on a cliff face and is therefore partially protected from degradation of it's habitat. However, many other species of Nepenthes are not so fortunate and are being literally logged to extinction. CITES is superfluous in protecting them. Rob Cantley ################### From: Cokendolpher@aol.com Thu Jan 24 11:10:59 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:10:48 EST Subject: Re: clipeata online information network In a message dated 1/24/02 4:06:32 AM, jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de writes: >So what would be the value of a message that can be received only by the >sender? The ICPS can provide a public database, but we are not well >prepared to keep private "secret-bases". Who should decide what data >should be available to which people? I see no reason why ICPS should have to publish a list of growers, especially if the growers do not want their names in general circulation. But, certainly information about numbers of plants, ages, sexes, countries, etc., should be made available. When ICPS receives nonprofit status will it be legally required to supply "any" files upon request of the public? Could a spammer request all the e-mail addresses of members? James ################### From: jt394997@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Thu Jan 24 11:59:50 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:59:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: roridula Hi, After 6 months my Roridula seeds have finally come up. Thanks to whoever donated them to the seedbank. I was wondering if anyone can give me cultivation tips on them(ex. how much water, light). Right now I have them about 6 inches from 2 48" florescent lights and have been watering them overhead. They seem to be doing alright, but are starting to look a little yellow. thanks, Jay ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 24 14:37:04 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:35:53 +0000 Subject: Re: Smallest CPs In message , nigel hurneyman writes > >There's been some discussion on the largest CPs, but small is beautiful so >how about submitting a list of the smallest to The Guiness Book of Records? > How about smallest collection.... I could enter my collection of Genlisea (currently zero). Fame at last.... >NigelH >(And yes, I've just got my December CPN) > Got mine too. -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 24 15:01:15 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:59:54 +0000 Subject: Re: roridula In message , Jason E Tingle writes > >Hi, > After 6 months my Roridula seeds have finally come up. Thanks to >whoever donated them to the seedbank. I was wondering if anyone can give >me cultivation tips on them(ex. how much water, light). Right now I have >them about 6 inches from 2 48" florescent lights and have been watering >them overhead. They seem to be doing alright, but are starting to look a >little yellow. > Which species do you have - R. dentata or R. gorgonianis? -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Thu Jan 24 15:21:41 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:21:44 -0600 Subject: Re: roridula Hi all, >Thanks to whoever donated them to the seedbank. I'm missing out here. Where do I sign up? It'll be my early b'day present to myself. Tom ################### From: tnert_80_ca@yahoo.ca Thu Jan 24 18:01:33 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 21:01:15 -0500 Subject: Re: D. Hartmeyerorum Thank you Jan I was just wondering if you (or anyone else) could help me a bit more in my endless quest for more information. > > from where is it that the tentacles of any Drosera > > orriginate? > > v.s. er.. I'm unsure what is meant by this :/ I'm still learning, and I searched through my biology textbook (Campbell 5th ed) to see if i could find what you mean by that in there.. but the best i could think of was vascular ??system?? But for all I know, it could mean anything else upto 'i dont feel like explaining that to you!' > See Juniper & al (Carnivorous Plants, AP, 1989) with many details and > references on the anatomy of the tentacles. Hmm.. being a student, I have access to many scientific journals, including a selection of biology related ones, from my university. However, I do not have access to any CP journals (other than CPN vol 30) and I did a search for "Drosera, tentacles" through the journals I do have access to and I only got two listings, both only mentioning that Drosera have emergencies called 'tentacles'! If anyone knows an online database that could supply me with more information, or have any suggestions for better search criteria, i would be greatful :) ################### From: imduff@hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 20:01:25 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 04:01:22 Subject: Re: Please read this > > Mark and List, > > The problem with cyber-petitions, according to sites such as >www.snopes.com , is that they are of dubious value. This is usually because >people e-mail you petitions that are way outdated but I imagine they also >lose value not being your actual signature. Wouldn't it be more valid to >print out the petition, sign and date it and mail it? > Has any of the other East Coast CP people heard anything about this? I've never heard anything about this landfill proposal(beyond this list) or walked the exact field where the landfill is proposed. However, I am familiar with the area. As Mike has repeated, nature is at great risk from urbanization in this area. CP habitat is being lost at such a rapid rate. Land around Myrtle Beach is very expensive. Housing developments and golf courses are extending from MB into NC and beyond Wilmington. Places like the Green Swamp and Holly Shelter are a refuge for these plants, but they too are at risk from development. The proposed site of the landfill is very close to protected CP habitat. As the petiton suggests,it does seem likely that parts of the Green Swamp would be at risk from contaminated ground water. Stefan Ploszak North Carolina Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: tnert_80_ca@yahoo.ca Thu Jan 24 20:12:28 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:12:14 -0500 Subject: collecting D. spathulata seed I have a D. spathulata plant that has been, and still is blooming. I was informed that the flowers will self pollinate without any intervention on my part. Fine.. now how long before i collect seed?? The flowers on some stalks (correct term?) have long been dried, and i tried collecting seed from flowers of verious ages, and either the seed is MUCH more numberous than i expected, and much smaller, or I'm collecting scrap! Also: is there any 'trick' that might make it easier to collect the seed? I'm aftraid I have rather large fingers, and feel a little clumsy trying to deal with the small flowers :/ Trent [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Thu Jan 24 20:51:46 2002 Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:51:44 -0600 Subject: Cultivar, specis, etc Jan, I thought Rhodendron people occasionally use something little similar, but I could be wrong. But I have seen greces for Lycoris. I don't know how prevalent they are, though. You are absolutely right about cultivars. I did not catch this in Peter's message, but orchid people use cultivar names for species all the time, too (e.g., Cattleya walkeriana 'Pendentive' AM/AOS, Paph. rothschildianum 'Rex' FCC/AOS), so there really isn't something to argue. I am personally, grateful to the inventor of grex system for orchids. it is a useful system if you get thousands of progeny from a single cross. You have to distinguish some (better color, bigger flowers, etc) from the rest of the same cross (ugly, boring, etc) ranking is obtained by comparison of valid generic names:> Continuing on my "off topic" topic/subject, I wonder how often or how many new genera are being created for Asteraceae. I don't know the answer for orchids, but the number of the genera is certainly increasing. I am not disturbed to learn that there are more Asteraceae genera than orchid genera (but I am sure some orchid nuts may be). Please forgive my ignorance, but how do you get those figures? Databases, maybe? I am personally interested in this. But phytochemically speaking, they are a very interesting group. I don't know if I can say the same thing about Cyperaceae, though. Most of my postings are off topic anyway ;-). I consider this as a learning opportunity. But I assume Paleoherbs (I work on Piper species) are still technically dicots. Or are they treated as entirely different from the rest of dicots? But are monocots more advanced compared to paleoherbs? If so, is monocots still lower than true monocots when it comes to the evolutionally stage? I heard the "distance" between paleoherbs and true dicots is greater than that of paleoherbs and monocots, and I think that's what you are referring to. Very nteresting. Thank you for your information. Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: Cokendolpher@aol.com Thu Jan 24 21:17:37 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:17:25 EST Subject: N. gymnamphora x? germination rates Has anyone obtained seeds from the ICPS seed bank lately of this hybrid? What kind of success in germination have you had? James ################### From: tnert_80_ca@yahoo.ca Thu Jan 24 21:34:12 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:33:57 -0500 Subject: Re: N. gymnamphora x? germination rates > Has anyone obtained seeds from the ICPS seed bank lately of this hybrid? > What kind of success in germination have you had? > James > I obtained these seeds and had little success. However, due to my limited experience, I was only able to successfully germinate 1/4 Nepenthese varieties that I ordered, so I'm not sure my experience with N. gymnamphora says much! Trent ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jan 25 00:21:50 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:21:39 +0100 Subject: Re: clipeata online information network Dear James, > When ICPS receives nonprofit status will it be > legally required to supply "any" files upon request of the public? I am not at all a US tax law expert but I assume we would not need to reveal all secrets of the world to the public. The problem with _N. clipeata_ data is, as long as no names (of growers) are attached to them, anyone could make up any figure and submit it because noone would be responsible and there would not be a possibility to verify the data. > Could a spammer request all the e-mail addresses of members? I suppose this would be technically possible. There are, however, methods of password protection at various levels of sophistication. It is beyond me what would be appropriate in the present case (the parties directly involved would have to settle on a suitable solution). Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jan 25 01:30:46 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:30:53 +0100 Subject: Re: D. Hartmeyerorum Dear Trent, > > > from where is it that the tentacles of any Drosera > > > orriginate? > > > > v.s. > > er.. I'm unsure what is meant by this :/ "v.s." (vide supra=see above). The tentacles are emergences (i.e. built from more than just the epidermis; so they are more than just hairs) like the strange yellow things at the leaf base of _D. hartmeyerorum_. > > See Juniper & al (Carnivorous Plants, AP, 1989) with many details and > > references on the anatomy of the tentacles. > > Hmm.. being a student, I have access to many scientific journals, This one is a book (off-line, I'm afraid). You really should try to find a copy. It will probably answer many of your questions. Kind regards Jan ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Fri Jan 25 03:05:10 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:58:18 +0600 Subject: re: clipeata online information network Dear Jan, Come now. I wasn't suggesting that we maintain a secret database of known criminals! You seem to have latched on to one of several reasons I could think of as to why individuals may not want it posted on the internet that they have such a valuable plant at flowering size. What about an individual's right to privacy? Knowledge of who has such plants can be used in all sorts of ways detrimental to the owner. Increased risk of theft is one of the main reasons why think few people would subscribe to a public database such as you envisage for COIN. For example, if you were to place an on-line order on a website and fill in a form giving personal details, telephone number, address etc., the website's owner is not at liberty to later post that information publicly without your consent. Correct? Your response seems to me to somewhat of an over-reaction. I could go through it line by line and contest it in detail, but I guess there would be little point in boring everyone and wearing out my keyboard. Bottom line is that I was *not* absolutely *not* proposing that we do anything secretive and illegal as you intimate. Nor that we would be in some way condoning the possession of illegally obtained plants. I simply feel the option should be given to people when they register whether or not they want their details published. You may find that most people would not want their names and details of their plants put in the public domain. Their reasons for this would no doubt vary from one individual to another, but that would be their business; it's a basic right to privacy. There's nothing illegal or sinister in giving people that option as you seem to imply. How would it work? Simple. There would be a Registrar who would maintain the database. Person 'A' would inform the registrar that they have say, a female plant in bloom. Person 'B' happens to have recently informed the registrar that they have harvested pollen. Registrar writes to both A and B individually and offers to put them in touch with each other. If they both agree then Registrar gives 'A' and 'B' each others contact details. That's basically it, other than possibly suggesting that a proportion of the seed be donated to an independent reputable botanical institute (maybe Atlanta?) for introduction to sterile culture with the ultimate goal of repopulating the natural habitat some day and the short term goal of maintaining genetic diversity in cultivation. I would agree that statistical figures of how many plants there are and which countries they are in should certainly be published so we can get an idea of the scale of ex-situ propagation that is currently underway. No-one has the slightest idea at the moment. Jan, I feel that an entirely public database such as COIN (nice name by the way) wouldn't attract very many responses. Many of the greatest horticulturists are actually quite publicity shy. Look to Japan. Rob Cantley ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Fri Jan 25 03:20:23 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:15:13 +0600 Subject: aha! COIN Hey Jan, I've suddenly realized why you want to make the N. clipeata database public and on-line. It's so you can use the name COIN isn't it? The penny has just dropped ... Rob ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jan 25 04:54:39 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:54:48 +0100 Subject: Re: clipeata online information network Dear Rob, thanks for your reply. I just have (perhaps) been informed by (name deleted) that (secret) is forthcoming. Good luck and keep private! Just for the record, the ICPS is not officially involved. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jan 25 04:55:02 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:55:16 +0100 Subject: Re: Cultivar, species, etc Dear Hideka, > I thought Rhodendron people occasionally use something little similar, but I > could be wrong. But I have seen greces for Lycoris. I don't know how > prevalent they are, though. In real life there is frequently a subtle difference between what people do and the rules (cf. speed limits). I mentioned the rules. > Continuing on my "off topic" topic/subject, I wonder how often or how many > new genera are being created for Asteraceae. The rate is not constant (depending on historical context and genus/section in question) but it is roughly consistent with the ratio of 20 (new) species per (new) genus. > all generic plant diversity.> > > Please forgive my ignorance, but how do you get those figures? Databases, > maybe? I am personally interested in this. Various sources. As an online source I can recommend Watson & Dallwitz' page for angiosperms: http://biodiversity.uno.edu/delta/angio/index.htm > > > But phytochemically speaking, they are a very interesting group. This is what I meant. > I don't know if I can say the same thing about Cyperaceae, though. This family is far less studied (and less well known) phytochemically. > "base-group" or the "monosulcate clade" that includes some of the most > "primitive" families formerly included in the dicots.> > > But I assume Paleoherbs (I work on Piper species) are still technically > dicots. Or are they treated as entirely different from the rest of dicots? It depends on the author. Even "gene trees" are not unambiguous but it may be safer to exclude Magnoliopsida (I do not accept the bogus name "Paleoherbs") from Rosopsida, the "true" dicots ("Eudicots" is a bogus name as well). > higher (true) dicots.> > > But are monocots more advanced compared to paleoherbs? Difficult question for sister groups, but I would say they are more advanced because they contain more diversity of recent origin. I admit this is a questionable concept of advancedness but I cannot come up with something better at the moment. > If so, is monocots still lower than true monocots ? I suppose you meant dicots in the second case. > when it comes to the evolutionally stage? Hmmm... Rosopsida contain more diversity of recent origin (mainly due to diversification within Asteridae) than Liliopsida. > I heard the "distance" between paleoherbs and true dicots is greater > than that of paleoherbs and monocots, and I think that's what you are > referring to. Yes. Kind regards Jan ################### From: no_contestar@server.com Fri Jan 25 05:17:04 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:21:37 -0300 Subject: JUNTOS TODO ES POSIBLE!! ADEP [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] [JPEG or GIF file Image2.jpg deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: massey@fmhi.usf.edu Fri Jan 25 06:17:47 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:13:55 -0500 Subject: RE: N. gymnamphora x? germination rates FWIW, zilch. Tom in Fl. -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 12:22 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Has anyone obtained seeds from the ICPS seed bank lately of this hybrid? What kind of success in germination have you had? James ################### From: meadowview@pitcherplant.org Fri Jan 25 08:36:47 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:33:07 -0800 Subject: Re: Peer reviewed articles. cultivars and mutants, famous Audubon pitcher print Hi Folks: Ivan commented that his access to computers is limited and hence he has been unable to read some of our publications recently made available on line at our web site. Don't let that stop you from reading them. If you have this problem please let us know and we will be more than happy to send you reprints of the articles to read. If you can cover the postage, or xeroxing if needed on some of the proceedings papers, we would be glad to ship the papers to you. There was a lot of discussion about cultivars after our comments about the priority of the use of the term "green" for anthocyanin-free mutations. While Jan correctly pointed out the term therm "green" may not be a cultivar term it certainly is appropriate to use this term when referring to the anthocyanin-free mutation in Sarracenia that we have characterized. Many times epithets are applied to mutations and used when discussing them. There are many examples of this in maize genetics. So.. I still maintain that "green" is an appropriate, useful term when discussing the anthocyanin-free mutation in Sarracenia. This may not be a cultivar term but it is the appropriate genetics term. We just loaded a famous Audubon print on the first page of our web site next to DISCOVERY. We have in our possession a print of Audubon's "Red Breasted Merganser" which features a Sarracenia in the lower left foreground. The pitchers were painted in by Robert Havell who added them after Audubon painted the birds. An original print of this image recently went for $35,000! If you go to www.audubonart.com and look under the Audubon Havell edition you will see this print as item #401. There are some interesting features to the Havell Pitcher Plant. Although great artistic license was taken in making the painting (the justaposition of pitcher plants in a salt march with a northetn bird) there are some reasons to think that the featured pitcher plant is Sarracenia oreophila. My rationale is as follows: 1.) plant in flower and in foliage at the same time 2.) wider ala and hood ornamentation characteristic os S. oreophila 3.) throat veing and purple blushing more characteristic of S. oreophila YOU BE THE JUDGE! Roger, you might want to add these comments about the Audubon print as a click with the print. Look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Meadowview >We now have two of our peer reviewed research articles available for you to read on-line at our web site at www.pitcherplant.org ... Phil Sheridan Meadowview Hi Phil and all, I presently do not have internet access at home and will have to wait till I go to the library again to read the research. I have been studying the subject of your other research on introgression and have learned some interesting things and I've found references you might like to use. A botanist did his dissertation on the Sunflower and tells of the following: Since Darwin's time it has been known that isolation is the greatest factor leading to adaptive radiation and hybridization is far less important. This is of course true in general, but only recently findings are making it clear that in some species introgression is very important. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Fri Jan 25 09:20:08 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:20:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Green Swamp News Hey Folks, Just for your information... Don't misinterpret the lack of any official response from the ICPS (or comments from me) on the stories of landfills at the Green Swamp, as an indication that the ICPS isn't doing anything. I've been doing some background research on the Green Swamp to find out more about this situation. As you may know, the unfortunate fact is that the Green Swamp has already been mostly destroyed and converted into pine plantations. There *is* a Green Swamp preserve, owned and maintained by The Nature Conservancy, but while this is a piece of land in what was the historical range of the Green Swamp, it is a small fraction of the original. Don't confuse the two. The TNC preserve is not apparently threatened by the land fill. However, I'm learning more about this project daily, and I'll keep you posted on the facts as the gel in my email box. Alas, those on this listserve who work in conservation either professionally or as volunteers know that there are vast numbers of depressing things happening to our remaining wild lands. It is an unpleasant reality that we must choose our conservation battles wisely, because if we spread our efforts too thin we will certainly fail everywhere. Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: bllorber@wcvt.com Fri Jan 25 10:34:52 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:34:53 -0500 Subject: Re: NZCP Book Update O-the pains of publishing. Any updates, Bruce? Thanks, Bryan ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 7:28 PM > > Hi All > > My book "Carnivorous Plants of New Zealand" is currently at the binders and > should be in my hands next week (fingers crossed). > > All queued orders will be posted out promptly and I will notify those > involved. > > Thanks for your patience. > > The pre-release price on my website www.geocities.com/nz_cp will increase to > NZ$54.95 per copy from 1 Jan 2002. > > So, be in quick if you still want to get your copy at these crazy low > prices. > > This price rise will not affect people who already have orders in progress. > > Bruce > > ################### From: corusc8@hotmail.com Fri Jan 25 11:04:53 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:01:56 -0800 Subject: Sean Barry's comments Sean, In CP digest 2810 you wrote: "That's a chance I'm willing to take, and I'm amazed that you would suggest that established botanic institutions "can't use [endangered plants] to best advantage." If species conservation is to be entrusted to private collectors instead of to habitat protection plans and to organizations with proven track records and facilities that will outlast generations, we may as well say goodbye now--realistically, what will happen to most private collections when the collectors are gone or have lost interest? You'd also apparently be surprised how many botanic institutions willingly share very rare material with the private sector, whether through plant sales or outright gifts. That's how I've obtained some of my very best and healthiest specimens--I hope I am able to care for them as well as the institutions that couldn't "use them to best advantage" did." I'd like to add my two cents. Some institutions will only take the specimen to desicate it for an herbarium, add to their collection, establish a holotype (rare these days), or grow until it dies. Institutions definitely need to be reminded that an Ivory Tower that segregates themselve and raises them above also distances them from both public (and occasioanally scientific) support. It is often in these situations that enthusiasts and institutions get on each others nerves. There are cranks both in amateur enthusiast circles and professional institutes (occasionally without the social skills or diplomacy neccessary to heal the divide already established. ) Sean, you have some of those fantastic and healthy specimens because you established a positive relationship with those institutions that the original author had given up on as irrelevant and conflicting with conservation efforts. In short I agree with what you said, but wanted to point out that if all of us tried to create those relationships with botanical organizations, they would be overwhelmed and would develop reclusive habits to defend the time of their overworked and underpaid staff due to the demands of obsessive CP geeks like myself. With that said, I'd like to respond to Nigel's original comment: > If a country is unable to detect and eliminate collection of its > endangered plants, there's absolutely no point in confiscating them > when they're in the process of being shipped abroad because they'll > either be destroyed on passed on to a botanic institute which in all > likelihood can't use them to best advantage and certainly won't spread > material around to private enthusiasts who can. Nigel's definition of "best advantage" loosely divides two forces that should be joined. I don't think it is a good strategy to get another person to share by calling them stingy, in-the-way, and equating their efforts with destruction. Those botanical institutes are actually people, who are on this list sharing and spreadin' the love around. Even with obscenely wealthy endowments, they often need the support of enthusiasts and in an ideal world they should in turn support the enthusiasts. That is how the collections and knowledge will endure generations.With those thoughts on social symbiosis, I think I'll go read the Lichen Society bulletins about how they name their cultivars. Joseph Kinyon ################### From: CMDoddII@aol.com Fri Jan 25 15:54:32 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:54:24 EST Subject: Re: CP Digest Dear Sirs: I had to change my e-mail adress and would like to (re)subscribe to the CP Digetest newsletter. Thank you Cliff Dodd ################### From: CWMorrow@earthlink.net Fri Jan 25 19:23:04 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:54:58 -0600 Subject: Refining the terrarium Mike Wilder, I used your method of keeping Nepenthes above heated water in an aquarium with very good results. I don't know if my problem was added lighting or cold temperatures, but reducing the lighting and using your method described in the March 2001 Newsletter greatly improved the conditions of the plants. I'm going to expand to some more tanks for other plants. Thanks, Wayne Morrow ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Sat Jan 26 09:58:47 2002 Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:54:55 +0600 Subject: Re: CP Digest Hi Cliff, Pleased to know you're back! I've just sent an e-mail to you with vague guidelines as to how to subscribe to this listserv and then I checked out the new and much enhanced ICPS website (courtesy of Pete Thiel and John Brittnacher). If you go to http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cplist/SubscibeCP.htm it's all there. It's worth reading, but in brief you need to send an e-mail to listserv@opus.labs.agilent.com with the message SUBSCRIBE CLIFF DODD and thereafter you can post messages by e-mail to cp@opus.labs.agilent.com Best regards, Rob Cantley Borneo Exotics [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Sat Jan 26 10:16:23 2002 Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 10:12:26 -0800 Subject: Re: D. Hartmeyerorum >I'm just wondering if any further information has been attained as to the function of the yellow, non-mucilaginous emergences on Drosera Hartmeyerorum... Trent Gielau >I don't think so. Jan Hi Trent, Jan and all, Be assured, we are working on it. We have learned some new things about the plant, and Petiolaris Sean and I have a number of analytical experiments planned. We discovered that the seedlings do not have the organs until the leaves are over a centimeter long. They begin to form as one organ per leaf and then consecutively larger leaves form more. Ed Read has just offered help in microphotography, and soon we will have something for you all to take a look at. The function of the organ is still a mystery, but I'm sure we will figure it out by studying the living plant in action. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 12:13:48 2002 Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:13:46 +0000 Subject: refining the terrarium/collecting spatulata seed hello, thanks wayne for letting me know of your success with the heating method i described. i am always glad to hear from anyone who tries this method. as a general note, all of my nepenthes continue to flourish in my terraria set up in this way. reports have trickled in from various others who have seen positive results, and i have yet to hear of a failure. it works!!! collecting drosera seed: for me it works best to wait until the whole flower stalk has browned (dried out) somewhat. ideally you are trying to wait until the seed is completely ripe inside the fruits, yet not so long that the fruits have opened and spilled thew seed everywhere. it is difficult to make a simple rule for when this perfect moment will arrive. but, when the stalk has browned, fold a sheet of paper in half, gently bend the stalk over the paper, and tap the stalk against the paper. if seed spills out (it's tiny!!! like ground pepper perhaps) then you can cut of the stalk and finish collecting seed in the paper. if no seed comes out, leave the stalk attached and give it more time. repeat until you've got your seed. good luck--mike Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Sat Jan 26 22:27:55 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:27:51 -0600 Subject: Taxonomy, African violets, and JCP I merely gave examples. Thank you. I will check this out. And I agreed that. I should have written, \223(even if they are less interesting,) I do agree they are phytochemically interesting. So all the \223goodies\224 such as Brassicaceae, Ranunculaceae, and Papaveraceae are not considered as \223true\224 dicots? This is rather deep. The sky is not falling, though. But what if you exclude Asteridae from the true dicots? Are true dicots (minus Asteridae) less diverse compared to monocots then? Or more? <(I already see the headline: "Australian carnivores more popular than African violets in Japan").> Careful !!! There is a cult of African violet growers in Japan led by Toshiko Kawakami. Engei Guido (Horticulture Guide) featured her and her violets in all issues. I don't know if they still do this or not. One time AV were very popular. Because of spontaneous mutations, there were interesting cultivars raised in Japan. I think Japanese are very much into fads, and AV particularly suited to this. Interestingly, African violets are difficult to grow in Japan because: 1. Water is acidic (AV likes neutral soil conditions). 2. Homes in Japan are not generally air conditioned 24 hours. Even in the middle of summer or winter, we shut off the heat or the cooler (air conditioner) before going to bed. If you live in the northern part of Japan, this is different, though. I am not sure if these things made AV special, but there certainly was some allure. Majority of ordinally AV growers probably did not care, but Mrs. Kawakami is a wife of former ambassador. Say, you are inner circle of this selective group, and can grow plants not too many people can grow. Unfortunately, it is difficult for some Japanese to resist this type of vanity. If you take a close look at plant groups that have zealous followers in Japan, you can find a similar pattern. One problem JCP has with its membership is, the retention rate. I read almost half or third of members are elementary school students or junior highschool students (some high school students as well). As they advance in their grade, members start to drop because of \223pressure\224 to study. Some will come back to Cps, alas, but not many of them. It is my personal opinion, but Cps are generally considered for \223kids\224 in Japan. As you grow older, you are "supposed" to grow something more mature or \223shibui\224 such as succulents/cacti, traditional/classic plants (Chrysanthemum, Rhoea, Asarum, etc), orchids, and wild plants. I don't have anything against Cps becoming more popular in Japan. I think it may be a long shot. MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 27 03:55:16 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:17:32 +0000 Subject: Re: CITES - question for Shawn, last time > >CITES has failed to prevent plants such as S. alabamensis, S. >jonesii, and S. oreophila from being exploited to the point of >extinction. Sorry, I am not a big fan. It has not worked with CP. >Placing further restrictions on law-abiding people is not the way to >go. You're not going to stop poaching by placing restrictions on >trade. It doesnt matter if these plants are free, someone will >still rip them out of the wild. CITES and international law will >not stop that. Enforcing laws which make it illegal to remove the >plant from the wild will. If it is enforced. Well CITES is not intended to prevent people from ripping plants from the wild. Its aim is to control the international trade. I think that CITES has been remarkably successful in regulating international trade. Taking the previously quoted example of the Dionaea, I remember talking to a colleague of Adrian Slack's who said that back in the days before CITES every commercially bought Dionaea was wild collected. Now they are produced in Dutch nurseries from tissue culture literally in their thousands. Actually I think the latest figure is something like half a million plants per year! You can't say that CITES has not made a difference. Okay, the convention is not perfect and its never going to give total protection to endangered plants and animals. There will always be people who think the benefits of smuggling outweigh the risks. We should think ourselves lucky that dried powdered Sarracenia is not considered an aphrodisiac by Chinese herbalists (I've tried it and it tastes awful). Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: CNS987@aol.com Sun Jan 27 06:22:06 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 09:21:47 EST Subject: D. capillaris - is it rare? Hi, I was just wondering if anyone knew exactly how threatened Drosera capillaris actually is? In the IUCN red list of threatened plants (1997) the sundew is listed as 'rare' however, I have read numerous homepages, and books which say that it is common in south USA! Can anyone clear this up for me, I need to include the info. in a univeristy project? Regards, Chris [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: dpevans@rci.rutgers.edu Sun Jan 27 10:42:47 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:38:23 -0500 Subject: Re: D. capillaris - is it rare? Dear Chris, Right now, _Drosera capillaris_ is not rare. It is very common in it's habitat. However, nearly all land on the east coast is becoming "developing" land so the habitat area keeps getting smaller and smaller. So, any and all plants endemic to bogs are currently threatened along the coast. Plants which are 'threatened' are in the process of becoming 'rare' or 'endangered' and then, if the threat is not negated, the next stage is 'extinict'. Some people who read "threatened" think it means the same as "rare", but these words are not quite the same. Dave Evans ----- Original Message ----- > I was just wondering if anyone knew exactly how threatened Drosera > capillaris actually is? In the IUCN red list of threatened plants > (1997) the sundew is listed as 'rare' however, I have read numerous > homepages, and books which say that it is common in south USA! ################### From: kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Sun Jan 27 12:49:40 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:49:51 -0500 Subject: Sarracenia Dormancy(?) Hello, CPers: Since this Winter has been mild so far, I never brought my Sarracenia in to protect them from the cold. Today is insanely mild by NYC standards, 61 degrees Fahrenheit at the moment, so I took advantage of the nice weather to check on the Sarracenia & Drosera on the roof. The Drosera were curled up into hibernacula, all settled down for their Winter nap as expected & still nice & green & healthy looking. Most of the Sarracenia (oreophila & leucophylla) leaves had turned brown & dried out, though the 2 pitchers the leuco put out were still colorful. All seemed to be as I expected it to be until I looked a little closer: both Sarracenia seem to be putting up new shoots. Is this normal behavior? Should I be worried? Thanks, -Kit -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: piranhas@canada.com Sun Jan 27 12:50:37 2002 Date: 27 Jan 2002 12:50:34 -0800 Subject: contacts hello! hi i was wondering if u knew of anyone in ma usa that would sell carniverous plants in sept oct around sandwich...if u do could u please tell me that would be great if u could also tell me if there is anyone in nova scotia that u think would sell cp's anytime of the year if u do please tell me thx...if u could tell me anywhere to buy cp's that would be great..thx __________________________________________________________ Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com ################### From: kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Sun Jan 27 13:24:18 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:06:20 -0500 Subject: Aquatics Lots of plant stuff to talk about today... I've got a 4-Gallon tall aquarium with Utricularia gibba, U. ?(probably macrorhiza), & Aldrovanda growing in it. The aquarium is layered, with peat filling the bottom quarter, sand filling the next quarter, & water to the top. The plants seem happy enough so far, but there are a couple of things I'm wondering about: There's a weird, brittle, scum forming on top of the water. Should I be doing anything about it besides skimming it off? Would it be a good idea to put an airstone in the tank to oxygenate the water, or do the CPs need stagnant water? A friend of mine suggested I get some guppies & some tiny algae-eating snails to put in the tank. I kind of like this idea, but I question whether it will work. Does anybody have experience mixing aquatic animals with aquatic CPs? Thanks, -Kit -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Sun Jan 27 13:42:39 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:42:29 EST Subject: Re: Sarracenia Dormancy(?) In a message dated 1/27/2002 2:59:43 PM Central Standard Time, kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us writes: > Most of the Sarracenia (oreophila & leucophylla) leaves had turned > brown & dried out, though the 2 pitchers the leuco put out were still > colorful. All seemed to be as I expected it to be until I looked a > little closer: both Sarracenia seem to be putting up new shoots. Is > this normal behavior? Should I be worried? > That kind of depends on how cold it gets before winter is through, although these two plants aren't normally a problem. It is normal for new growth to occur in late Jan if the plants are left outside and the temps are moderate. The problems I have had are with the new flava pitchers and S. alata flowers. The first flava pitchers are the best of the season, so if they get smacked by a hard freeze then I have to wait until the following year for non-distorted 3 foot flavas. If S. alata is putting up flower buds and a frost occurs, the flowers are most certainly lost. Keeping the bog overly wet will help keep the plants matoblism down so they dont break dormancy too early. Also, a moderate winter in which no sustained hard freeze occurs usually means a heavier insect population (the leaf eating harmful ones). We are fortunate in that we had a couple of weeks of hard freeze already this year, which is unusual because we normally dont get one until february. If you're that far north and the plants are outside, watch the temps in feb-mar closely if the sarrs have already begun to resume growth. You'll want to temporarily mulch them (ie: cover the bog with plastic) if a hard freeze occurs. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Sun Jan 27 14:23:05 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:55:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia Dormancy(?) I buried another tub today and thinned some Sarracenia. The pssitacina is gone. Is it dormant and leavless? Everyone else still has leaves, although they are old and reddish. I found only one VFT bulb, but it is growing and much larger than last year. Wayne Morrow, Zone 7 ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Sun Jan 27 14:28:02 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:00:55 -0600 Subject: Re: Aquatics I have gibba in two tanks at work. The goldfish pick it to death, and it is all gone in the filtered aquarium. I don't think it likes a lot of water movement or fish browsing through it. Now, baby guppies it may like very well! Wayne >Would it be a good idea to put an airstone in the tank to oxygenate >the water, or do the CPs need stagnant water? > >A friend of mine suggested I get some guppies & some tiny >algae-eating snails to put in the tank. ################### From: kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Sun Jan 27 15:01:03 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:01:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia Dormancy(?) At 1:46 PM -0800 1/27/02, MCATALANI@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 1/27/2002 2:59:43 PM Central Standard Time, >kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us writes: > >> Most of the Sarracenia (oreophila & leucophylla) leaves had turned >> brown & dried out, though the 2 pitchers the leuco put out were >still > colorful. All seemed to be as I expected it to be until I >looked a > little closer: both Sarracenia seem to be putting up new >shoots. Is > this normal behavior? Should I be worried? > > >That kind of depends on how cold it gets before winter is through, >although these two plants aren't normally a problem. Glad to hear that. >It is normal for new growth to occur in late Jan if the plants are >left outside and the temps are moderate. Okay. New growth in the middle of Winter seemed very strange to me, but this is only my second year growing CPs (or plants of any sort) & my collection was in a friend's yard last Winter. What with you being a commercial grower with many years of experience, I will accept it as normal. >The problems I have had are with the new flava pitchers and S. >alata flowers. The first flava pitchers are the best of the season, >so if they get smacked by a hard freeze then I have to wait until >the following year for non-distorted 3 >foot flavas. If S. alata is putting up flower buds and a frost >occurs, the flowers are most certainly lost. Alas, my flava & alata went to the great bog in the sky. >Keeping the bog overly wet will help keep the plants matoblism down >so they dont break dormancy too early. Hmm. My plants are in 12" pots, with 2 pots in a tray about 8" deep by 12" by 24". There's been a good 6" of water in it all Winter. Do you think I should top it off all the way? >Also, a moderate winter in which no sustained hard freeze occurs >usually means a heavier insect population (the leaf eating harmful >ones). Forgive me for the ignorant question, but when you say "hard freeze", do you mean "temperatures cold enough to freeze the ground", "temperatures below freezing for an extended period", or something else? >We are fortunate in that we had a couple of weeks of hard >freeze already this year, which is unusual because we normally dont >get one until february. I just can't get over how mild this Winter has been here. 2 years ago we were just coming out of 2 weeks of below-20-degree weather, & I don't think we've been down to 20 this year. >If you're that far north and the plants are outside, watch the temps >in feb-mar closely if the sarrs have already begun to resume growth. I certainly will. I think March & April killed most of my plants last year. They were fine after the blizzard around New Year, but the April snow storm was probably too much. >You'll want to temporarily mulch them (ie: cover the bog with >plastic) if a hard freeze occurs. Ah! So plastic is okay for short periods, just not the entire Winter. Don't know why I didn't think of that, I guess I just had "plastic bad!" stuck in my head. Thanks much, -Kit -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Sun Jan 27 15:29:04 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:04:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Aquatics At 2:34 PM -0800 1/27/02, Wayne Morrow wrote: >I have gibba in two tanks at work. The goldfish pick it to death, >and it is all gone in the >filtered aquarium. >I don't think it likes a lot of water movement or fish browsing through it. Oh well. Thanks for the tip. >Now, baby guppies it may like very well! Heh. Exactly what I was thinking. -Kit >Wayne > >>Would it be a good idea to put an airstone in the tank to oxygenate >>the water, or do the CPs need stagnant water? >> >>A friend of mine suggested I get some guppies & some tiny >>algae-eating snails to put in the tank. -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Sun Jan 27 15:44:48 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:17:43 -0600 Subject: Re: Aquatics >>Now, baby guppies it may like very well! > > >Heh. Exactly what I was thinking. > Yeah, but not for the faint of heart. It will grab them by the tail and chew on them while they wriggle about for a few days. Yech. Wayne ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Sun Jan 27 16:25:03 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:25:01 +1100 Subject: Competition Catagories Greetings all, I need help! The Carnivorous Plant Society ofNew South Wales Inc. set up simple catagories for it's annual swap meet competition several years ago. Last year I added 12 catagories in an attempt to encourage people to bring more plants for show. For example, instead of a large Nepenthes Hybrid winning Best Nepenthes, this year we had plants like N. aristolochioides in flower on show. When I joined the society there were only a few Drosera and even fewer Utrics on show but these extra catagories have helped by enabling people to see species of plants they have only seen in books, and some which aren't in any books! The difficult part of this is getting the right species in the right catagories which is where I need your help. Do any other societies have a similar set up? What do you all think of these catagories? Nepenthes ampullaria and N. truncata in the same group! Crazy you say. How do I do it better? Please help! Thanks in advance Regards Greg Christmas Swap meet 1.Bromeliaceae includes: Brocchinia and Catopsis 2. Byblis 3. Drosophyllum 4. Cephalotus 5. Darlingtonia 6. Dionea 7. Drosera Species Cat: 1: Annual and tuberous 8. Drosera Species Cat: 2: Pygmy 9. Drosera Species Cat: 3: All other 10. Heliamphora 11. Nepenthes Species Cat. 1 aristolochioides, clipeata, edwardsiana, ephippiata, hamata, inermis, lowii, macrophylla, madagascariensis, muluensis, veilardii, villosa 12. Nepenthes Species Cat. 2 albo-marginata, ampullaria, bellii, bicalcarata, campanulata, gracilis, hirsuta, macrovulgaris, merilliana, mirabilis, northiana, rafflesiana, reinwardtiana, thorelii, truncata 13. Nepenthes Species Cat. 3 argentii, burbidgeae, bongso, caruculata, densiflora, dubia, eustachya, eymae, glabrata, hispida, ovata, pervillei, rajah,tentaculata, veitchii 14. Nepenthes Species Cat. 4 alata, fusca, khasiana, macfarlanei, maxima, pilosa, ramispina, sanguinia, spathulata, stenophylla, tobaica, ventricosa 15. Nepenthes Hybrids Cat. 5 16. Largest Nepenthes pitchcr (by volume) 17. Pinguicula Species 18. Pinguicula Hybrids 19. Sarracenia Species 20. Sarracenia Hybrids 21. Utricularia Aquatic/Rheophites includes Aldrovanda and 22. Genlisea 23. Utricularia Epiphitic/Lithophitic 24. Utricularia Terrestrial 25. Best Photo 26. Best art work 27. Reddest plant 28. Plant/owner look alike 29. Hungriest plant 30. Best plant by a junior member 31. Grand Champion [ the Daley Award ] Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: tnert_80_ca@yahoo.ca Sun Jan 27 16:50:59 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:50:49 -0500 Subject: Re:collecting spatulata seed > collecting drosera seed: for me it works best to wait until the whole flower > stalk has browned (dried out) somewhat. ideally you are trying to wait until > the seed is completely ripe inside the fruits, yet not so long that the > fruits have opened and spilled thew seed everywhere Yikes! now i'm going to have D. Spatulata growing in every pot in my terrarium! My oldest stalk barely had any seed in it, but the others are spilling out tiny black specks.. thanks for the help :) Trent ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Sun Jan 27 17:30:27 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:30:20 -0800 Subject: Word of caution about aquarium heaters The idea in the 2001 CPN article is not new, where you place an aquarium heater in small amount of water in a tank (for heat and humidity), and the plants are elavated on egg crate. People should be aware for the potential of a fire hazard. I've tried a setup like this for a while a year ago, but abandoned it nearly fried my plants and the fire hazard risk was just too high. These aquarium heaters were designed for a larger volume of water, usually several gallons. Also, the manufactures of the heaters clearly warn that their aquarium heaters have to be immersed in water at all times. If used in a small container or small volume of water, the water level drops to a dangerous level rather quickly due to evaporation, and exposes the heater to the air. Once exposed to air, the heater gives off a lot of heat, and I mean a lot of heat. In this state, the heater can fry the plants or cause nasty burns if you happen to touch it. If the egg crate comes in contact with an exposed heater, it can melt and start a fire. Additionaly, if water is splashed on an exposed heater, the glass tubing on the heater will crack since it is so hot. Not a good situation when you consider the heater is also still plugged into the electrical outlet in the wall. Some people have used this method with success, BUT you have have to be very vigilant to ensure the water level never drops too a dangerous low level. To me, that is not worth the worry. You only have to forget once for this to be a major problem. Ron MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Sun Jan 27 19:48:41 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:48:39 -0800 Subject: Thermostat with setback? Does anyone know where to get a thermostat with a temperature setback feature that runs on 120 volts? I've been looking for such an item for a while now. Ron Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Sun Jan 27 20:34:57 2002 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:07:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Thermostat with setback? Buy one on E-Bay and get a 24v transformer at Radio Shack. Wayne 1/27/02 9:55:51 PM, "Ron ." wrote: > > > >Does anyone know where to get a thermostat with a temperature setback >feature that runs on 120 volts? I've been looking for such an item for a >while now. > >Ron > >Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > > ################### From: kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Sun Jan 27 23:14:32 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 02:03:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Aquatics At 3:47 PM -0800 1/27/02, Wayne Morrow wrote: > >>Now, baby guppies it may like very well! >> >>Heh. Exactly what I was thinking. >> >Yeah, but not for the faint of heart. It will grab them by the tail >and chew on them while they wriggle about for a few days. >Yech. Ick. I was specifically thinking of *baby* guppies, i.e. little dot-sized things that would easily fit within a U. gibba trap, but I guess the macrorhiza could catch a small guppy that way. Never mind, I have no desire to torture vertebrates. -Kit -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: John.Wilden@hmce.gsi.gov.uk Mon Jan 28 02:07:49 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:11:17 -0000 Subject: Sarracenia & Chinese herbalists Phil, >We should think ourselves lucky that dried powdered Sarracenia is not considered an >aphrodisiac by Chinese herbalists (I've tried it and it tastes awful). > >Regards, >-- >Phil Wilson Never mind the taste, did it work? John Wilden Southport Lancs UK ################### From: John.Wilden@hmce.gsi.gov.uk Mon Jan 28 02:17:13 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:20:47 -0000 Subject: Aquatics Kit, >A friend of mine suggested I get some guppies & some tiny >algae-eating snails to put in the tank. I kind of like this idea, but >I question whether it will work. Does anybody have experience mixing >aquatic animals with aquatic CPs? > >Thanks, >-Kit Not a good idea IMO. One of the killers as far as aquatic utrics are concerned is algae. Fish, mean fishfood and fed fish produce waste, which ultimately feeds the algae. Snails are next to useless as algae controls, unless you have lots of them. Lots of snails will eat the algae but will then start on the plants, when the algae runs out. John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jan 28 03:18:06 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:18:18 +0100 Subject: Re: D. capillaris - is it rare? Dear Chris, > I was just wondering if anyone knew exactly how threatened Drosera > capillaris actually is? In the IUCN red list of threatened plants > (1997) the sundew is listed as 'rare' The authors of this list were, unfortunately, not well informed (usually biologists are forced to publish whatever they can before they have had time to research the topic carefully; this is the result of ongoing budget cuts, and what you can observe in the literature is the result of wrong political decisions made long ago). Anyway, _D. capillaris_ is not at all rare in a global context. It may be rare in some regions, but after all, _Nepenthes rafflesiana_ is also rare here (Germany). It simply does not make sense to discuss global conservation issues if the information base is geographically restricted. Kind regards Jan ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 03:20:09 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:20:02 +1100 Subject: Re: Aquatics Greetings Kit, Snails are great for grazing on algae which grows on Aquatic species. Avoid using Ramshorn (Planorbis corneus) snails as they will graze on the plants themselves. I use Physa and Limnoea species. I keep Utrics with many species of fish including live bearers such as Swordtails (Xiphophorus hellerii) and Platies (Xiphophorus maculatus) as well as Australian natives with no ill effects to the Utrics. Tadpoles are also found in the same containers as the Utrics. Happy growing Regards Greg MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: Susan.Farrington@mobot.org Mon Jan 28 04:48:05 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:53:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia Dormancy(?) Kit, I concur with Michael Catalini that your plants sound pretty normal. It sure has been a mild winter here in MO, also, though we did have a couple of weeks of cold weather (teens and 20's). As Michael said, keep an eye on cold temperatures once that new growth gets high enough out of the soil cover to be zapped. 32 degrees F is not usually TOO bad, but 28 degrees is what they call a hard frost, and will freeze any soft tissue for sure. I DISAGREE with Michael's recommendation for plastic, though... even for short periods, I much prefer an old sheet, burlap, pine boughs or something that breathes. Especially since your plants are up on the rooftop: sunshine during the day can be pretty intense and will warm up rapidly under that plastic. A white sheet, on the other hand, can be left on all day if it's too cold when you go to work to remove it. Finally, if at all possible, keep those plants outside... if you bring them in, even for short periods, that new growth will shoot up pretty fast, and then you'll be stuck keeping them inside until all danger of frost is past. Good luck! Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Mon Jan 28 05:44:31 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:44:49 +0100 Subject: Classification Dear Hideka, > it may be safer to exclude Magnoliopsida (I do not accept the bogus > name "Paleoherbs") from Rosopsida, the "true" dicots ("Eudicots" is a > bogus name as well).> > > So all the \223goodies\224 such as Brassicaceae, Ranunculaceae, and > Papaveraceae are not considered as \223true\224 dicots? These families are usually in the Rosopsida (i.e. outside Magnoliopsida s.str.). Brassicaceae (in Capparales) is even a rosid family. Only few phylogenetic reconstructions (based on poor taxon sampling?) would place Ranunculales in Magnoliopsida s.str. Usually Ranunculales form an early branch within Rosopsida. > But what if you exclude Asteridae from the true dicots? There is no character to support such a classification. > Are true dicots (minus Asteridae) less diverse compared to monocots > then? Or > more? Rosopsida: 9481 genera/176417 spp. Asteridae: 4692/90346 Rosopsida minus Asteridae (a grossly artificial group!): 4789/86071 Magnoliopsida: 310/8206 Liliopsida: 2731/69175 True dicots (=Rosopsida) contain clearly more diversity than monocots (Liliopsida). Even Rosopsida minus all asterid diversity are slightly more diverse (at genus/species level) than Liliopsida. NB: Liliopsida minus orchids (likewise unsupported) would be 1731/34175 (ca. half their original size!). => Numerically, orchids are "monocot asterids". Kind regards Jan ################### From: h7n@hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 07:33:39 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:33:37 Subject: Miscellaneous >Well CITES is not intended to prevent people from ripping plants from >the wild. Its aim is to control the international trade. > No, it was set up to monitor international trade in endangered species. Everything else it has taken on itself is just a symptom of quango-itis. CITES originators are very unhappy at the way it has turned out. Anyway, I've been asked to provide Rumex material towards a study to isolate the sex gene in the dioecious acetosa complex for a UK institution. I don't understand what I'm asking here, but is it possible this is the same gene that determines sex in its distant relative, Nepenthes? Regarding the privacy of Nepenthes clipeata owners, what if they don't know whether their material is legal? Until recently I had a N. rajah, bought at a UK CPS meeting. I have no idea who I bought it from, so if an army of jackbooted customs officials had broken down my door in the middle of the night demanding to see some paperwork, I'd have been facing the dawn firing-squad. Is the ICPS of the opinion that members must be able to prove the legitimacy of their material, or should the burden of proof be in the other direction, innocent until proven guilty? NigelH Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: gaborhoy@mailcity.com Mon Jan 28 07:34:00 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:33:49 -0600 Subject: idea in the 2001 CPN About the risk of fire, I work with low wattage heaters, they are small in size also so you could use a 5w or 10w or 15w depending on the size you are installing, and they wont get too hot. G ################### From: SGraber@sauder.com Mon Jan 28 07:47:44 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:47:50 -0500 Subject: CP's for zone 5 bog garden? I'm in the process of researching CP's for an outside bog garden that I'd like to put together for my back yard. I've looked thru Savage Garden and a couple wildflower books to find out where various CP's tend to grow in the various temperature ranges. I live in a zone 5 temperature range (northern Ohio) and I'd like to put together a CP bog that grows CP's that will tolerate the winter temperatures. Mulching with pine needles is an option to help them winter the cold. So far I've only been able to identify 4 CP's that would winter well in my temperature zone: D.intermedia D.rotunfolia Pinguicula sp. (I don't remember the genus off the top of my head) Sarracenia purpurea Does the group have any additional recommendations? Thanks! :) Shane Graber Ohio ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Mon Jan 28 08:11:09 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:10:57 EST Subject: Re: Sarracenia Dormancy(?) << I DISAGREE with Michael's recommendation for plastic, though... even for short periods, I much prefer an old sheet, burlap, pine boughs or something that breathes. Especially since your plants are up on the rooftop: sunshine during the day can be pretty intense and will warm up rapidly under that plastic. A white sheet, on the other hand, can be left on all day if it's too cold when you go to work to remove it. >> Actually, I should have bene more specific. By plastic, I am referring to clear or white poly plastic. It is to be used temporarily when the temperatures drop below freezing. It should be left on temporarily. Remove it as soon as the temps warm up. Again, I am only recommending this because the plants have broken dormancy and have resumed growth. Since this as happened, I would not recommend covering the plants with anything permanent, including mulch. Also, I am not recommending sealing a pot in plastic and placing it in the sun, even in the dead of winter. I would only recommend a large poly sheet that covers all of the plants. This would be needed at nights and on windy/extremely cold days. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Mon Jan 28 08:28:18 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:22:12 -0500 Subject: RE: CP's for zone 5 bog garden? Hey Shane, I like to tell people to consider every plant hardy until you've killed it once yourself! Seriously, in the right spot and with the right winter cover, many Sarracenia species and hybrids will over winter in a zone five bog. I know several Michigan growers who can reliably over winter Dionaea outside, you have at least ten Utrics, and half a dozen Drosera as well. Its really all in the location of your bog. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Shane Graber Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 10:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP I'm in the process of researching CP's for an outside bog garden that I'd like to put together for my back yard. I've looked thru Savage Garden and a couple wildflower books to find out where various CP's tend to grow in the various temperature ranges. I live in a zone 5 temperature range (northern Ohio) and I'd like to put together a CP bog that grows CP's that will tolerate the winter temperatures. Mulching with pine needles is an option to help them winter the cold. So far I've only been able to identify 4 CP's that would winter well in my temperature zone: D.intermedia D.rotunfolia Pinguicula sp. (I don't remember the genus off the top of my head) Sarracenia purpurea Does the group have any additional recommendations? Thanks! :) Shane Graber Ohio ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Mon Jan 28 08:39:32 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:39:05 -0700 Subject: Re: Sarracenia Dormancy(?) > From: Kit Halsted > > Since this Winter has been mild so far, I never brought my Sarracenia > in to protect them from the cold. Today is insanely mild by NYC > standards, 61 degrees Fahrenheit at the moment, so I took advantage > of the nice weather to check on the Sarracenia & Drosera on the roof. > The Drosera were curled up into hibernacula, all settled down for > their Winter nap as expected & still nice & green & healthy looking. > Most of the Sarracenia (oreophila & leucophylla) leaves had turned > brown & dried out, though the 2 pitchers the leuco put out were still > colorful. All seemed to be as I expected it to be until I looked a > little closer: both Sarracenia seem to be putting up new shoots. Is > this normal behavior? Should I be worried? I've got some plants breaking dormancy, too. I have a long pot full of Sarrs that I bring inside for the winter. They usually begin growing by the end of January but kind of got a head start this year as we've been keeping that room a bit warmer. My leuco has 4 inch leaves so far - will probably reach about 2 feet. The gulfensis has 3 flower stalks, the tallest is about 5 inches. Also the 'Judith Hindle,' 'Ladies in Waiting,' alabamensis, and a purp x alata hybrid all have flowers just starting, as well as some tiny leaves. I wish I could make them wait a bit longer but it's nice just to see something growing - it's snowing pretty good outside right now. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: SGraber@sauder.com Mon Jan 28 09:08:22 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:08:24 -0500 Subject: RE: CP's for zone 5 bog garden? Steve, Could you provide me with a starting list? There's a lot to choose from. :) Shane -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:32 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hey Shane, I like to tell people to consider every plant hardy until you've killed it once yourself! Seriously, in the right spot and with the right winter cover, many Sarracenia species and hybrids will over winter in a zone five bog. I know several Michigan growers who can reliably over winter Dionaea outside, you have at least ten Utrics, and half a dozen Drosera as well. Its really all in the location of your bog. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Shane Graber Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 10:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP I'm in the process of researching CP's for an outside bog garden that I'd like to put together for my back yard. I've looked thru Savage Garden and a couple wildflower books to find out where various CP's tend to grow in the various temperature ranges. I live in a zone 5 temperature range (northern Ohio) and I'd like to put together a CP bog that grows CP's that will tolerate the winter temperatures. Mulching with pine needles is an option to help them winter the cold. So far I've only been able to identify 4 CP's that would winter well in my temperature zone: D.intermedia D.rotunfolia Pinguicula sp. (I don't remember the genus off the top of my head) Sarracenia purpurea Does the group have any additional recommendations? Thanks! :) Shane Graber Ohio ################### From: prometheus4242@hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 09:15:35 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:15:33 -0500 Subject: U. leptoplectra Hey everyone, If there is anyone out there growing this plant who would be willing to trade for a division or some seeds I would love to hear from you Thanks Travis Wyman Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Mon Jan 28 11:19:26 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:13:31 -0500 Subject: N. distillatoria Can anyone steer me toward an on-line photo of distillatoria? Thanks, Steve ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Mon Jan 28 11:59:26 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:59:24 -0800 Subject: Re: N. distillatoria On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 11:25:38AM -0800, Steve LaWarre wrote: > > Can anyone steer me toward an on-line photo of distillatoria? Here are a few (possibly): http://images.google.com/images?q=distillatoria&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wi Chuckr ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Mon Jan 28 12:05:03 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:04:57 -0800 Subject: Sarracenia replanting time I looked through the FAQ and searched the list archive a bit, but just wanted to be sure.... I need to transplant a bunch of adult Sarracenia - is now the best time to do it? The weather here in my area is mid 30's at night and 50's during the day. One hybrid looks like it's thinking about making a flower.....otherwise, everyone looks like they're asleep. (I'm in San Jose, CA, USA) I'm guessing the key is to do your transplanting work before the first new growth start to show. Thanks... chuckr ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Mon Jan 28 12:09:09 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:09:23 -0600 Subject: Re: N. distillatoria Hi Steve, Do these meet your need? http://www.wistuba.com/nursery/nepenthes/distillatoria/n_distillatoria.htm Tom ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Mon Jan 28 12:25:09 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:23:51 -0700 Subject: RE: CP's for zone 5 bog garden? In my experience (I live in zone 5), pretty much all Sarracenia will do well. Of course, the more cold hardy ones like oreophila, flava, and purpurea ssp. purpurea will do fine, but even the southern ones like leucophylla and purpurea ssp. venosa seem to thrive. I've got two leucos right now buried under 6 inches of pine needles and snow - and they've been there for at least 2 years now. The hardy Drosera you mentioned should also do well. Check out the outdoor bog page on my website if you're interested. Good luck. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Mon Jan 28 13:21:31 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:15:30 -0500 Subject: RE: N. distillatoria Thanks Tom, that did the trick. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Tom Stubblefield Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 3:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hi Steve, Do these meet your need? http://www.wistuba.com/nursery/nepenthes/distillatoria/n_distillatoria.htm Tom ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 28 13:52:00 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:50:37 +0000 Subject: Re: N. distillatoria In message <000901c1a82f$e0f27580$229433cf@novagate.com>, Steve LaWarre writes > >Can anyone steer me toward an on-line photo of distillatoria? > I don't have a photo but I have a print from around 1828 if you want to see a scan of it! Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: interbnk@terra.com.gt Mon Jan 28 13:57:55 2002 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 22:50:27 -0600 Subject: The merits of overpotting Nepenthes & Cephalotus? Greetings! I have recently received a copy of Charles Clarke's excellent new book on Sumatran and Malaysian Nepenthes, and found several of his recommendations regarding cultivation to be most intriguing. In particular, I was struck by his comment that many (all?) lowland Neps will benefit from being grown in very large pots, if measures are taken to ensure proper aeration and watering of the potting media. Looking back, I have noticed that many of my TC plants seem to have benefitted enormously from the transplant from 10 cm mini pots to 17 cm diameter pots, and had previously thought that this was entirely to the effect of having a fresh growing medium around their roots after a year or so. In late December, I repotted several healthy dinner plate-sized rosette plants into "giant" (> 40 cm diamater) plastic pots using the guidelines suggested in Dr. Clarke's book (inverted empty pot placed at the bottom + a deep layer of styro drainage covered with a bed of NZ sphagnum/shredded treefern/hort charcoal) and am pleased to note that a month later, all these plants are adding large new leaves. While I am aware that this may be more the product of warmer temperatures and brighter sunshine down here, coupled with overall better culture (I hope!), and a more humid microclimate at plant crown level, I am curious as to what the end result will be. Coming from a background of growing orchids and aroids, overpotting is strictly a no-no. In fact, in some cases it will definitely lead to the rapid decline of the plants in question. Because of this, so far I have tended to err in this direction with my Nepenthes growing containers, and now feel that this might be the reason why some of my oversized lowlanders (N. rafflesiana, N. merrilliana, N. bicalcarata) pitcher so infrequently, while their younger brethren in smaller pots do just fine. For the record, I do not notice the same phenomenon with species originating from intermediate or montane habitats. I would like to hear from other growers on the forum who use very large pots for Nepenthes and Cephs, and what there experiences have been (apart from a quantum leap in their purified water consumption). Cheerio - Jay Vannini ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 28 14:00:02 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:58:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Nigel, >>Well CITES is not intended to prevent people from ripping plants from >>the wild. Its aim is to control the international trade. >> >No, it was set up to monitor international trade in endangered species. >Everything else it has taken on itself is just a symptom of quango-itis. >CITES originators are very unhappy at the way it has turned out. > It was actually set up to control international trade - a small but significant difference. -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: jsteavey@hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 15:59:24 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:00:18 -0600 Subject: Sarracenia Questions I've grown several Sarracenia for a few years, now, but can't seem to find the answers to two questions. Hope someone can help. Is there an optimum depth to plant the root when potting--especially a bare root? Also, I grow these plants outside in fully glazed pots, but the West Texas summers are not only HOT, they are dry as well. I have to water at least once a day--sometimes more on really hot days, and I was wondering if anyone had tried using a commercially available mulch as a cover for the soil to help prevent rapid drying. Any suggestions? Thanks!! Steve ################### From: tfw@dol.net Mon Jan 28 18:05:30 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:48:31 -0800 Subject: Books on Nepenthes Hello everyone, I would like to know where I could purchase copies of Charles Clark's books Nepenthes of Borneo and Nepenthes Sumatra and Malaysia. If anyone knows of a site or place please point me to it. Tristan Werner ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 18:27:59 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 02:27:57 +0000 Subject: warnings about aquarium heaters hello, i thought i had made all of the safety concerns ron mentions clear in my article, but perhaps not. i have to disagree with the idea that the water evaporates very rapidly, although i suppose this is a subjective matter. it certainly helps to keep an aquarium heated in this way "tightly sealed", as i mentioned in the article. evaporation will not be any kind of problem in this case; indeed, extra water will have to be syphoned out. there is no disagreeing with the important FACT that aquarium heaters that are on and not completely submerged are a safety hazard. if you cannot ensure that a heater is completely submerged at all times then this method is definitely not a good idea. for me it has worked for almost 5 years without any sort of problem, in a variety of tank volumes, for a variety of applications. i don't mind watching the water level in exchange for not having to heat my whole home to 80+ degrees! as for whether the whole idea is a new one or not, i can't say. i know of the somewhat similar heated water jar that d'amato described, but for me this method is more effective (in part precisely because of the possible hazards associated with keeping a heater in a tiny volume of water!). i do not know of any prior published account of using heated water to assist germination of petiolaris complex seeds, or of any cp seeds. --mike Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: imduff@hotmail.com Mon Jan 28 19:13:33 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:13:31 Subject: Re: Sarracenia dormancy Hi Kit, >Hmm. My plants are in 12" pots, with 2 pots in a tray about 8" deep >by 12" by 24". There's been a good 6" of water in it all Winter. Do >you think I should top it off all the way? During the dormancy, Sarracenia don't need heavy watering. In fact I tend to water significantly less. Just be careful the the soil doesn't become completely dry. > >Forgive me for the ignorant question, but when you say "hard freeze", >do you mean "temperatures cold enough to freeze the ground", >"temperatures below freezing for an extended period", or something >else? I get worried when the temperatures are around 20 F for extended periods. Another factor that should be mentioned is wild-chill. As Mike has suggested, mulching will protect the plants from the winds. The winds not only further freeze the plants, but also desiccate. Everyone has their own rituals and routines for growing these plants. Personally, I mulch with pine needles. I worry about using plastic for extended periods of time because it creates an environment where your plants can rot. The air could be over 80 F under the plastic during the day, then below 20 F at night. Don't worry too much about your Sarracenia this time of year. They may not look like much, but they are preparing for spring. Stefan North Carolina MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Mon Jan 28 21:28:06 2002 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:25:11 -0800 Subject: Re: Sarracenia replanting time Hi, I'm in San Jose too and I'm afraid you have already missed prime transplant time for many Sars in our area. We don't have long really. December is the month, and if it's a warm winter, I think the end of December is best.. After that you will find new growth. I found a bud on one of mine last week, and I've noticed new signs of growth on all my plants. We have very warm winter until about a week ago. That hasn't helped. I'm still planning on transplanting a couple of them. A little late is better than never. They will probably survive. Stephen At 12:13 PM 1/28/2002 -0800, you wrote: >I looked through the FAQ and searched the list archive a bit, but >just wanted to be sure.... > >I need to transplant a bunch of adult Sarracenia - is now the best time to do >it? The weather here in my area is mid 30's at night and 50's during the day. >One hybrid looks like it's thinking about making a flower.....otherwise, >everyone >looks like they're asleep. (I'm in San Jose, CA, USA) > >I'm guessing the key is to do your transplanting work before the first new >growth >start to show. > > >Thanks... > >chuckr Stephen W. Davis Primary: 408-229-2264 Mobile: 408-391-9575 Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: stefanomzz@yahoo.it Tue Jan 29 02:59:58 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:59:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: Book on Sarracenias I'd like to know anything about the forthcoming book "Gardening With Carnivores : Sarracenia Pitcher Plants in Cultivation & in the Wild" by Nick Romanowski (University Press of Florida, ISBN: 0813025095), price about 30$. It will be out in february. How will it be? Thanks and greetings to all, Stefano, Italy ______________________________________________________________________ Dillo con una cartolina! http://it.greetings.yahoo.com/ ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Tue Jan 29 03:07:03 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:30:36 +0600 Subject: aphrodisiac?? Phil Wilson wrote: >We should think >ourselves lucky that dried powdered Sarracenia is not considered an >aphrodisiac by Chinese herbalists (I've tried it and it tastes awful). Never mind the taste. Does it work? Rob ################### From: Susan.Farrington@mobot.org Tue Jan 29 04:38:37 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:44:14 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia replanting time Stephen wrote: >Hi, I'm in San Jose too and I'm afraid you have already missed prime transplant time for many Sars in our area. We don't have long really. December is the month, and if it's a warm winter, I think the end of December is best.. After that you will find new growth. I found a bud on one of mine last week, and I've noticed new signs of growth on all my plants. We have very warm winter until about a week ago. That hasn't helped. I'm still planning on transplanting a couple of them. A little late is better than never. They will probably survive. >Stephen While I agree that prime transplanting season for Sarracenia is just before they break dormancy, I have heard from others that it's okay to divide and transplant during the growing season. Fall seems to be the one time to avoid (when they are entering dormancy). To experiment on this advice, I divided a large hybrid Sarracenia (S. minor x leuco) last summer on June 26... it did just fine. So... if you've missed peak time, all is not lost! Does anyone have any other comments to add? Is it perhaps okay to divide during summer, but not during the first flush of growth in spring?? Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Susan.Farrington@mobot.org Tue Jan 29 04:46:34 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:52:18 -0600 Subject: RE: CP's for zone 5 bog garden? Shane, As the others have written,you can probably grow any species of Sarracenia that you can get your hands on... they are all lovely! The only one I would avoid at first would be S. psittacina. That one likes is REALLY wet, and I have had the best luck growing it in a pot sitting IN my little pond next to my bog. I have always brought that one into my cool greenhouse in winter, so I don't know if it would survive outside. But I have grown most of the other Sarracenia outside in my bog here in MO(warmer end of Zone 5) for two years now. Venus flytraps (Dionaea) have done fine, but make sure you plant them a bit higher and drier than the Sarracenia. They WILL die over the winter if they are too soggy. The only winter protection I give my bog is to put some cedar boughs over top of it once it gets down to the teens. A recommendation: when you construct your bog, put a PVC pipe down into the deepest part. The pipe should have some holes drilled in it, and get a cap to put on top. Then you can use it as you can put a dipstick down it periodically to check the level of the water in your bog, just as you would do with the oil in your car. Good luck! Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Susan.Farrington@mobot.org Tue Jan 29 04:50:51 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:56:34 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia Dormancy(?) Michael Catalini wrote: >Actually, I should have bene more specific. By plastic, I am referring to clear or white poly plastic. It is to be used temporarily when the temperatures drop below freezing. It should be left on temporarily. Remove it as soon as the temps warm up. Again, I am only recommending this because the plants have broken dormancy and have resumed growth. Since this as happened, I would not recommend covering the plants with anything permanent, including mulch. >Also, I am not recommending sealing a pot in plastic and placing it in the sun, even in the dead of winter. I would only recommend a large poly sheet that covers all of the plants. This would be needed at nights and on windy/extremely cold days. Thanks for the clarification, Michael! WHITE plastic is much more useful; that's for sure! Unfortunately, I don't typically see it readily available for the retail customer (they'll have ordinary clear plastic at the hardware store, but not usually white plastic). So... I'll stick to my white sheets! Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: michaelpagoulatos@yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 06:37:06 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:36:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: nigel hurneyman, re: Subject: Miscellaneous Nigel, you asked "...Regarding the privacy of Nepenthes clipeata owners, what if they don't know whether their material is legal? ... Is the ICPS of the opinion that members must be able to prove the legitimacy of their material, or should the burden of proof be in the other direction, innocent until proven guilty?". Regarding the US, the ICPS' opinion (or anyone else's for that matter) is irrelevant. The answer is "the burden of proof should ALWAYS lie with the accuser; ALWAYS". This is still America and the Bill of Rights still applies, in spite of the fact that the Republicrats (while being cheered by the sheep)are matching it down the feel-good road to Socialist/ Police-State hell. Take care, Michael Pagoulatos Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ################### From: michaelpagoulatos@yahoo.com Tue Jan 29 06:52:43 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:52:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Steve Stewart re: Sarracenia Questions Steve, You wrote "...can't seem to find the answers to two questions....Is there an optimum depth to plant the root when potting--especially a bare root? West Texas summers are not only HOT, they are dry as well. I have to water at least once a day--sometimes more on really hot days, and I was wondering if anyone had tried using a commercially available mulch as a cover for the soil to help prevent rapid drying...". In the wild, I've seen rhizomes totally burried in the soil as well as rhizomes with just the roots burried. I have always potted the rhizomes half-way into the soil (only the top half-lengthwise- shows above the ground), with successful results. I live in N. Texas and I also get 105 F days in July and August and 50-day dry spells. I keep my potted plants in hard-plastic children's swimming pools (6' diameter, about $5 from WalMart), sitting in a couple of inches of water. That is a lot easier to maintain than pots in individual trays (I add water every 2-3 days). If you are talking about a bog, eMail me privately and I'll tell you how I have automated the watering (I too used to have to water it several times a day). I would not use mulch. I'd be concerned that all kinds of material would wash into the soil and possibly hurt the plants, as well as promote fungus growth since the air and sunlight would not reach the rhizomes and smaller plants like Drosera. Take care, Michael Pagoulatos Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com ################### From: cteichreb@hotmail.com Tue Jan 29 07:56:17 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:56:15 -0800 Subject: Re: Sarracenia issues Hi everyone, This is just a general response to a lot of questions/discussions about Sarrs posted recently. First of all, boo to those of you in the east ;-)! We were buried under 25cm of snow Sunday and it's down to -6C overnight, which is considered harsh in the Pacific Northwest! No Sarrs will be blooming for a while yet! With regards to winter hardiness. I agree with the suggestion of try everything and grow anything that doesn't die. I have overwintered every Sarr species down to -25C (for about a week long period) with no ill effects. I know that John Green has been overwintering many "semi" hardy cp's outside in Utah in a bog for several years now. Just make sure to mulch them with pine needles and snow, and DON'T use plastic (great way to encourage fungus as I found out). For repotting, yes, before the flower buds come up is ideal in my experience. However, if you have no choice, do it while the flowers are coming up, but chop them off afterwards. Better to have a plant survive a year without blooming then to die off. For the rapid Texas drying issue, my suggestion is bigger pots, or ideally, a bog. This will definitely cut down on the amount you have to water. If it's still really bad, consider shade cloth or at least putting the plants somewhere where they avoid hot afternoon sunshine. That's all for now. I'll go back to watching my Sarr seedlings come up indoors :)! Happy growing, Chris ################### From: willows@rose.net Tue Jan 29 07:58:08 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:58:38 -0500 Subject: Sarracenia as herb One should realize that Sarracenia have a bad taste as cows will not eat them. Cows are almost as good as fire in keeping down the competition. James A. Rollins [mailto:willows@rose.net] ################### From: SMATHRN@aol.com Tue Jan 29 08:11:17 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:11:09 EST Subject: warnings about aquarium heaters I have to agree with Mike about the aquarium heaters. I am using his technique and I have not added water one time since beginning the heated water terrarium. The sealed lid on the terrarium seems to maintain a sufficient vapor pressure that does not allow the water in the reservoir to rapidly evaporate. I am using a 50 watt Ebo Jager submersible heater that is covered with at least 2 inches of water at all times. I had similar concerns before I started but I have had no problems. The heated water terrarium has been surprisingly low maintenance, and my lowland Nepenthes are growing very vigorously. ################### From: willows@rose.net Tue Jan 29 08:21:22 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:21:53 -0500 Subject: Google images Some may find this useful. If you want pictures of CPs go to: Type in the name of the particular plants you are interested in and see what you get. James A. Rollins SW Georgia USA [mailto:willows@rose.net] ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Tue Jan 29 08:31:37 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:31:32 -0800 Subject: Re: warnings about aquarium heaters >i do not know of any prior published account of using heated water See the article in the (British) Carnivorous Plant Society Journal, Vol 14 (2) from 1990. The article describes a setup using a standard fish aquarium, aquarium heater in bottom, plants on a plastic support a few inches above. The article also takes this one step further with the use of capillary matting with the end of the matting dipping into the water, so that you never have to water the plants. Ron MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Tue Jan 29 08:37:59 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:37:23 -0700 Subject: RE: Sarracenia Questions > From: "Steve Stewart" > > I've grown several Sarracenia for a few years, now, but can't > seem to find the answers to two questions. Hope someone can > help. Is there an optimum depth to plant the root when > potting--especially a bare root? Also, I grow these plants > outside in fully glazed pots, but the West Texas summers are > not only HOT, they are dry as well. I have to water at least once a > day--sometimes more on really hot days, and I was wondering > if anyone had tried using a commercially available mulch as a > cover for the soil to help prevent rapid drying. Any suggestions? > Thanks!! > Steve I also have to deal with very hot, dry summers, which is actually a nice thought on a day like today - 17 degrees F right now! July and August are frequently near or over 100F and the relative humidity usually drops to around 15% in the afternoon. What works best for me is to put a bunch of Sarrs together in a large pot - I use a long plastic window box-type pot. I still have to water daily (sometimes twice because the tray is so shallow) but it doesn't seem to dry out as quickly as individual pots. Also, I make sure the pot is sheltered as much as possible from the wind, which can dry it out quickly. And I mix my soil about 2:1 peat/sand so it's a bit better for water retention. As for rhizome depth, I've wondered too. Some plants seem to grow more on the surface even if I plant them deeper, while others try to dive down under, and it always seems to be contrary to what I read. For me leuco and purpurea always grow higher, while rubra and minor seem to dig down in, and oreos and flavas kind of grow in the middle. I think I've read that it should be the other way around for some of them, but that's what the plants do by themselves. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Tue Jan 29 09:06:11 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:06:27 +0100 Subject: Re: nigel hurneyman, re: Subject: Miscellaneous Dear Michael & al., > Regarding the US, the ICPS' opinion (or anyone else's for that matter) is > irrelevant. It is also irrelevant in the rest of the world, for that matter. It is definitely not the purpose of the ICPS to identify and to prosecute/accuse anyone for trespassing rules not made by the ICPS. Even if some of my (intentionally) harsh statements about bogus nomenclature (that would violate ICBN or ICNCP rules but not ICPS rules) suggest otherwise, we do not enforce anything. We just try to keep cpers informed so they can make "educated" decisions. But in order not to be accused by third parties, the ICPS cannot support projects involving illegal material. We simply cannot afford any law suits of this sort for reasons of reputation (and of finance!). I am not suggesting that anyone interested in a _N. clipeata_ survival project has anything to do with illegally collected plants. I just wanted to make sure noone starts toying with the idea of "washing" such plants by participation in an ICPS supported project. For this reason I considered it appropriate to remove doubts that may have arisen from wrong interpretation of some of Rob's statements. If the following text is still required after these explanations: The ICPS welcomes all conservation efforts, and our (and I guess also anyone else's) standard bona fide assumption is that all material and methods involved are legal. We do not have the means nor the intention to control people or plants. Thanks for your patience. Kind regards Jan ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Tue Jan 29 09:23:54 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:19:15 -0800 Subject: Re: D. capilaris - is it rare? >I was just wondering if anyone knew exactly how threatened Drosera capillaris actually is? In the IUCN red list of threatened plants (1997) the sundew is listed as 'rare' however, I have read numerous homepages, and books which say that it is common in south USA! Can anyone clear this up for me, I need to include the info. in a univeristy project? Regards, Chris Hi Chris and all, I'm sure D. capillaris is not in danger. This species has a broad distribution from Virginia to Brazil. In my home state of California, D. anglica is listed as very rare. Of course this species is common and abundant elsewhere. Maybe this is the same as the case you read of D. capillaris being rare in your local area. Also, though the species as a whole may not be rare, geographical races could be. I have seen a great deal of variation in D. capillaris. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Tue Jan 29 13:22:39 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:22:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Official ICPS opinion on S. alabamensis, N. clipeata, etc. Nigel H wrote: > Regarding the privacy of Nepenthes clipeata owners, what if they don't know > whether their material is legal? Until recently I had a N. rajah, bought at > a UK CPS meeting. I have no idea who I bought it from, so if an army of > jackbooted customs officials had broken down my door in the middle of the > night demanding to see some paperwork, I'd have been facing the dawn > firing-squad. Is the ICPS of the opinion that members must be able to prove > the legitimacy of their material, or should the burden of proof be in the > other direction, innocent until proven guilty? Hey Nigel, there are no "official" ICPS opinions on any of this. We have just not found it important or useful to write such opinions. That being said, I will tell you my own opinion. Not only do I make sure I do NOT violate any conservation laws, I make sure I avoid even the APPEARANCE of impropriety. To this end, I have a special notebook that is dedicated to any horticulture I do that involves species covered by the US Endangered Species Act. This includes S. alabamensis, S. jonesii, S. oreophila, and P. ionantha. My notebook tracks every single seedling I have. I note who I give the plant to, if the plant is sold (legally, within my state), etc etc. I recommend that EVERYONE in the USA who grows plants of these species should also keep such records. It falls into the "cover your butt", precautionary principle sort of guideline. I do not personally grow particularly rare Nepenthes, but if I did I would follow the same guidelines. Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: flaneps@hotmail.com Tue Jan 29 13:25:18 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:25:16 Subject: Re: Big pots for Big Lowlanders >> >I have recently received a copy of Charles Clarke's excellent new book on >Sumatran and Malaysian Nepenthes, and found several of his recommendations >regarding cultivation to be most intriguing. In particular, I was struck by >his comment that many (all?) lowland Neps will benefit from being grown in >very large pots, if measures are taken to ensure proper aeration and >watering of the potting media. > >Looking back, I have noticed that many of my TC plants seem to have >benefitted enormously from the transplant from 10 cm mini pots to 17 cm >diameter pots, and had previously thought that this was entirely to the >effect of having a fresh growing medium around their roots after a year or >so. In late December, I repotted several healthy dinner plate-sized rosette >plants into "giant" (> 40 cm diamater) plastic pots using the guidelines >suggested in Dr. Clarke's book (inverted empty pot placed at the bottom + a >deep layer of styro drainage covered with a bed of NZ sphagnum/shredded >treefern/hort charcoal) and am pleased to note that a month later, all >these >plants are adding large new leaves. While I am aware that this may be more >the product of warmer temperatures and brighter sunshine down here, coupled >with overall better culture (I hope!), and a more humid microclimate at >plant crown level, I am curious as to what the end result will be. > >Coming from a background of growing orchids and aroids, overpotting is >strictly a no-no. In fact, in some cases it will definitely lead to the >rapid decline of the plants in question. Because of this, so far I have >tended to err in this direction with my Nepenthes growing containers, and >now feel that this might be the reason why some of my oversized lowlanders >(N. rafflesiana, N. merrilliana, N. bicalcarata) pitcher so infrequently, >while their younger brethren in smaller pots do just fine. For the record, >I >do not notice the same phenomenon with species originating from >intermediate >or montane habitats. > >I would like to hear from other growers on the forum who use very large >pots >for Nepenthes and Cephs, and what there experiences have been (apart from a >quantum leap in their purified water consumption). > >Cheerio - > >Jay Vannini Hi Jay and Everybody, I use big, deep pots for lowlanders, and they appear to prefer the space. I grow N. bicalcarata in plastic nursery cans in pure Florida sphagnum moss. My merrilliana are still small, but I overpot them in deep, square pots like I use for Sarracenia. Merrilliana will let you know when it wants to be repotted by putting out smaller leaves, giving everything else is the same. They seem very happy in my mix of small grade fir bark, sphagnum moss, alifor(clay balls),charcoal, and a little peat moss to "dirty" the mix. I grow nearly all my Nepenthes(including those highlanders that can survive summer heat) in this mix with very good results. I find the lowlanders slow down their pitcher rate, or stop completely, in winter. My bicalcarata plants have never been subjected to temps. below 58F, so I think the slowdown is caused by shorter winter daylight hours. The leaf drops the tendril, but then sits. When spring comes, the little "hooks" develop into pitchers. Hope this is informative. Until later, Trent Meeks Pompano Beach, Florida Trent Meeks ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 29 15:40:08 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 23:38:37 +0000 Subject: Re: aphrodisiac?? In message <5.1.0.14.2.20020129162329.01f78ec0@sltnet.lk>, Borneo Exotics writes > >Phil Wilson wrote: > > >We should think > >ourselves lucky that dried powdered Sarracenia is not considered an > >aphrodisiac by Chinese herbalists (I've tried it and it tastes awful). > >Never mind the taste. Does it work? > I don't think the dead flies that stuck in my teeth helped too much..... -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: dpevans@rci.rutgers.edu Tue Jan 29 15:59:33 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:55:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia replanting time Dear Susan, You should not divide the plants before/while they are entering dormancy, just as you mention. If you do, then you *will* have to worry about them making it through winter. Since they are inactive, any adverse conditions could finish them off. I would divide _S. flava_ and S. oreophila_ about two or three weeks earlier in the spring than the rest of the _Sarracenia_ species--Before the leaves or flowers really get going. The longer you wait into the grow season to divide/repot, the longer it will take the plant to become established. When they break dormancy, new roots also start growing. It is easy to see why it helps to divide before the new roots have grown long enough to be damaged during the process. _Sarracenia_ can be divided at other times of the year, during active growth, and you will have very good success rate. It's just that they may not look too happy until next year :) Dave Evans ----- Original Message ----- > > While I agree that prime transplanting season for Sarracenia is just > before they break dormancy, I have heard from others that it's okay > to divide and transplant during the growing season. Fall seems to > be the one time to avoid (when they are entering dormancy). > > Stephen wrote: > > >I'm still planning on transplanting a couple of them. A little late > >is better than never. They will probably survive. > > > >Stephen ################### From: tnert_80_ca@yahoo.ca Tue Jan 29 15:59:46 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:59:40 -0500 Subject: Re: CP's for zone 5 bog garden? Being Canadian, this is of particular interest to me, and I have already started a list of CPs native to Canada. The ones I list below are all native to different areas of Quebec. The only thing is: since some of them are actually native to areas that are more zone 4-, I dont know if it will get COLD enough for the in your winter, but it's a good place to start ;) The utrics I know to be aquatic I list, the others i'm not sure if they are aquatic or terrestrial. PINGS: vulgaris villosa DROSERA: rotundifolia anglica intermedia linearis filiformis (from Nova Scotia) UTRICS: resupinata purpurea (aquatic) cornuta geminiscapa vulgaris gibba (aquatic) minor intermedia Good luck! Trent > I'm in the process of researching CP's for an outside bog garden that I'd > like to put together for my back yard. I've looked thru Savage Garden and a > couple wildflower books to find out where various CP's tend to grow in the > various temperature ranges. I live in a zone 5 temperature range (northern > Ohio) and I'd like to put together a CP bog that grows CP's that will > tolerate the winter temperatures. Mulching with pine needles is an option > to help them winter the cold. So far I've only been able to identify 4 CP's ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Tue Jan 29 16:38:48 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:36:40 -0800 Subject: Re: Sarracenia replanting time Susan, What you are saying sound good. I didn't mean it to sound like once you miss the dormancy peak all is lost. However, I think a lot of people have noticed that some Sars, luec's in particular, don't like their roots disturbed and moving them in the peak of dormancy will probably have the least affect on them during the following growing season. I hadn't heard about fall being particularly bad, however, it may fit in with my tale of horror. I bid on 10 Sars on Ebay and got them bareroot mid September. I don't know how long they had been bare root. There was signs of some fungus too. I lost all but two of them. It was the biggest CP disaster I've had. It wasn't the lost money that bothered me, it was that these were beautiful plants... sigh. Stephen At 04:40 AM 1/29/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Stephen wrote: > > >Hi, > >I'm in San Jose too and I'm afraid you have already missed prime >transplant time for many Sars in our area. We don't have long >really. December is the month, and if it's a warm winter, I think >the end of December is best.. After that you will find new growth. >I found a bud on one of mine last week, and I've noticed new signs >of growth on all my plants. We have very warm winter until about a >week ago. That hasn't helped. > >I'm still planning on transplanting a couple of them. A little late >is better than never. They will probably survive. > > >Stephen > >While I agree that prime transplanting season for Sarracenia is just >before they break dormancy, I have heard from others that it's okay >to divide and transplant during the growing season. Fall seems to >be the one time to avoid (when they are entering dormancy). To >experiment on this advice, I divided a large hybrid Sarracenia (S. >minor x leuco) last summer on June 26... it did just fine. So... >if you've missed peak time, all is not lost! Does anyone have any >other comments to add? Is it perhaps okay to divide during summer, >but not during the first flush of growth in spring?? > >Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden > > >[HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] Stephen W. Davis Primary: 408-229-2264 Mobile: 408-391-9575 Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Tue Jan 29 16:46:36 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:44:56 -0800 Subject: Re: CP's for zone 5 bog garden? I don't have experience with it, but Drosera arcturi is listed in Peter D's book, as being from alpine regions of NZ and AU and need cold temps for dormancy. They are covered with snow in their native lands. I don't think you can kill D. capensis, although it would seem awfully cold. However, its' seed might survive and come back next season. Stephen W. Davis www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: SatanicDebris@aol.com Tue Jan 29 17:54:05 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:53:51 EST Subject: Dividing Cephalotus Hi, It seems my clump of 6 cephalotus plants have grown so dense in their 3" pot that I may need to repot. It is because of this that I need a bit of advice. The plant in the center of the clump had developed some mildew, probably from not getting enough light, and has not put out any leaves or shown any progress for the past month (though it does not appear to be dying either). When I first realized the problem, I added some trichoderma thinking that it will kill the mildew fungus, but is this idea flawed? The bottle of RootShield does not list mildew as a fungus that the trichoderma will kill. I am trying to eliminate the mildew with more fluorescent lighting and greater air circulation, but it does not appear to be improving. The cephalotus that I was given this past summer came with 3 plants, but has now split off and developed 3 side growths. When dividing, will I need to cut any roots/rhizomes or are these new plants growing on their own apart from the parent plant? Thanks in advance for any tips or suggestions you may have. -Jon [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Tue Jan 29 18:44:01 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:18:10 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia as herb >One should realize that Sarracenia have a bad taste as cows will not eat >them. But deer will eat Darlingtonia with relish. Well, not relish like pickles, but relish like it tastes good. :) Wayne ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Tue Jan 29 19:14:25 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:13:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Official ICPS opinion on S. alabamensis, N. clipeata, etc. > > That being said, I will tell you my own opinion. > > Not only do I make sure I do NOT violate any conservation laws, I make > sure I avoid even the APPEARANCE of impropriety. To this end, I have a > special notebook that is dedicated to any horticulture I do that involves > species covered by the US Endangered Species Act. This includes S. > alabamensis, S. jonesii, S. oreophila, and P. ionantha. My notebook tracks > every single seedling I have. I note who I give the plant to, if the plant > is sold (legally, within my state), etc etc. > > I recommend that EVERYONE in the USA who grows plants of these species > should also keep such records. It falls into the "cover your butt", > precautionary principle sort of guideline. > Cheers > > Barry ...the only problem here is both S. ruba alabamensis and P. ionantha are in wholesale commercial propagation here in the USA and both are being widely sold throughout many sources with improper names. You may buy a butterwort at your local Lowes store, its just named butterwort Pinguicula, and in fact is a tissue cultured P. ionanatha. The cause of the improper name is not done on purpose, its just the novelty horticultural nurseries selling the plants really don't know or give a rats ass if its a P. vulgaris or a P. ionantha, its just a Butterwort. The may have a pitcher plant labeled S. purpurea and in fact its a Ladies in Waiting, the sole purpose is to sell carnivorous plants and it just so happens that P. lutea isn't in commercial tissue culture here is the USA- P. ionantha is. So Barry your idea is a leaky boat already, but with good intentions. Never the less the plants are all nursery propagated. This problem is likely to increase with wholesale commercial propagation techniques and the way carnivorous plants are marketed to retailers in the USA in the future. Is it a problem? I don't know, I think the problem is with how the plants are marketed as novelties and not the fact that Cites I P. ionantha is available at maybe your local Wal-mart. Take care, Mike St. Petersburg Florida ################### From: dpevans@rci.rutgers.edu Tue Jan 29 20:57:12 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 23:52:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Official ICPS opinion on S. alabamensis, N. clipeata, etc. Dear Mike and Barry, Wow, I was wondering the same thing... I recently bought a _Pinguicula_ from at a Homedepot. While nearly all the CP being offered were dead or dying, one butterwort was in flower and looking super healthy so I payed $2.50 for it. I figured that it must either be _P. primuliflora_ or _P. ionantha_ since the corrola is white (few other species often have a white corrola and a fuzzy, yellow "tongue") I thought the flowers match fairly well _P. planifolia_, but the leaves are all wrong. I discounted the possiblity of _P. ionantha_, since it's interstate trade is prohibited by federal law. However, there are no plantlets forming on the leaves which is chacteristic of _P. primuliflora_... Oddly, I can't seem to match the flowers to photos on the net of either species, but I did find a photo on Oliver Gluch's page that looks very close: Too bad there is no name next to the thumbnail, just he word, "prey": http://home.t-online.de/home/oliver.gluch/Inhalt_Arten_E.htm Anyway, I really don't think really is a way to "prove" I bought the plant at Homedepot, is there? (Besides for video taping myself) Dave Evans > > > ...the only problem here is both S. ruba alabamensis and P. ionantha are in > wholesale commercial propagation here in the USA and both are being widely > sold throughout many sources with improper names. > > This problem is likely to increase with wholesale commercial propagation > techniques and the way carnivorous plants are marketed to retailers in the > USA in the future. Is it a problem? I don't know, I think the problem is > with how the plants are marketed as novelties and not the fact that Cites I > P. ionantha is available at maybe your local Wal-mart. > Take care, > Mike > St. Petersburg Florida > > > I recommend that EVERYONE in the USA who grows plants of these species > > should also keep such records. It falls into the "cover your butt", > > precautionary principle sort of guideline. > > > Cheers > > > > Barry ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Tue Jan 29 22:15:49 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:15:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia replanting time > I hadn't heard about fall being particularly bad, however, it may fit in > with my tale of horror. I bid on 10 Sars on Ebay and got them bareroot mid > September. I don't know how long they had been bare root. There was signs > of some fungus too. I lost all but two of them. It was the biggest CP > disaster I've had. It wasn't the lost money that bothered me, it was that > these were beautiful plants... sigh. > > Stephen > Stephen, The lesson here is not to buy plants on Ebay, but go to the webring of the ICPS and purchase quality grown plants from a dealer. True enough you may have to pay a bit more than bidding on who knows what on E-bay, but you know the old saying you get what you pay for. You may have paid for field collected plants being sold off on E-Bay too!! Purchasing quality grown plants anytime of the year makes a marked difference in ones success, I don't think you will find that on E-Bay for plant material, no more than I will find a new suit at K-mart. Mike St. Petersburg Florida ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Tue Jan 29 22:22:15 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 00:22:01 -0600 Subject: Sarracenia transplanting > I hadn't heard about fall being particularly bad, however This reflects my experiences as well. Bareroot plants I've bought in Aug/Sept are usually very puny the following season. None of them died, thankfully, but they only produced phyllodia until late late summer. Other plants I bought only a few months later did great. That said, if you simply want to move the plant with the existing soil intact to a larger pot, you can probably get away with that year round... I often have plants that outgrow their pots in the middle of summer, and I have no choice but to replant them. One puny hybrid I picked up at the grocery store in a 2-inch pot outgrew 3 pots in one season! If the plant really needs to be repotted, the roots will more than likely be wrapped around the interior of the pot, and moving the entire mass into a larger pot is easily done without damaging them. ################### From: kmagers@kc.rr.com Tue Jan 29 22:36:36 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 00:36:32 -0600 Subject: warnings about aquarium heaters I had a humidifier meltdown after it went dry-- early in Dec. Lost the greenhouse and everything but a two palms and one Sarracenia that was in my porta bog. 4 weeks to the day the house next door caught fire and burnt half the poly off my new greenhouse I built to replace the first one.-- Old Muphy sometimes like to prove his laws the hard way. ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Tue Jan 29 22:38:37 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:36:48 -0800 Subject: Re: Sarracenia replanting time I did as much research as was possible into the source of the plants before I purchased. Also, some plant dealers that have been around for a while are regulars on ebay. Of the 8 or so purchases I've made on ebay, this was the only one that went bad. Stephen At 10:25 PM 1/29/2002 -0800, you wrote: > > I hadn't heard about fall being particularly bad, however, it may fit in > > with my tale of horror. I bid on 10 Sars on Ebay and got them bareroot mid > > September. I don't know how long they had been bare root. There was signs > > of some fungus too. I lost all but two of them. It was the biggest CP > > disaster I've had. It wasn't the lost money that bothered me, it was that > > these were beautiful plants... sigh. > > > > Stephen > > > >Stephen, >The lesson here is not to buy plants on Ebay, but go to the webring of the >ICPS and purchase quality grown plants from a dealer. True enough you may >have to pay a bit more than bidding on who knows what on E-bay, but you know >the old saying you get what you pay for. >You may have paid for field collected plants being sold off on E-Bay too!! >Purchasing quality grown plants anytime of the year makes a marked >difference in ones success, I don't think you will find that on E-Bay for >plant material, no more than I will find a new suit at K-mart. >Mike >St. Petersburg Florida Stephen W. Davis Primary: 408-229-2264 Mobile: 408-391-9575 Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Tue Jan 29 22:53:43 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 00:53:39 -0600 Subject: Gardening With Carnivores > I'd like to know anything about the forthcoming book > "Gardening With Carnivores : Sarracenia Pitcher Plants > in Cultivation & in the Wild" My copy arrived last Friday, and although it isn't a huge book, it's a nice complement to the other books available, and very informative. If you collect sarracenias, it's definitely a must-have. It goes into great depth on hybridizing, and has a lot of nice photos. It helped me determine the ancestry of a few of my bastard plants, which was nice. One is even a cultivar! However, my Home-depot refugee S.rubras I have yet to identify with any confidence (gulfensis?), and alas, this book only added another dimension to my confusion. I don't think I've read two books that approached them the same way, so as far as I'm concerned 'rubra' is as deep as it gets. This is a hobby, it is supposed to be fun, and not in a rubik's cube kind of way. If you are learning to hybridize or propagate from seed, the instructions here are very specific, with photos. There is the mandatory 'creating a bog garden' section. And a section on farming sarracenias for the floral industry, and pitchers as cut flowers, if that interests you... Chopping off pitchers for show is a few notches above clubbing baby seals in my book. But to each his own. ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Wed Jan 30 01:12:51 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:13:11 +0100 Subject: Re: aphrodisiac?? CAUTION! Dear lovers, Before people start experimenting with _Sarracenia_ (or other cps) as lifestyle drugs, I would like to remind all enthusiasts that some of these plants contain significant amounts of coniine. FYI, e.g. visit http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/plant/conium.htm The data for _Conium maculatum_ are probably also applicable to any species of _Sarracenia_. Have fun! Kind regards Jan ################### From: mr30@st-andrews.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 04:41:54 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:43:34 -0000 Subject: Drosera as herb Do you know that in Germany sundew-tea and -liqueur is available? -Marcus ################### From: pilou68@chez.com Wed Jan 30 06:00:33 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:00:14 +0900 Subject: Re: Conference in Japan Hi Barry and others, > Hey folks, > > Incidentally, I've learned that a field trip that may be associated with > the next conference in Japan will be a trip to a greenhouse facility. This > greenhouse is supposedly filled with many varieties of Byblis. This would > be extremely interesting to see. > > I don't know how certain this possibility is, by the way. > > Cheers > > Barry As I understood there is more interesting than that... A field trip to see the very rare P.ramosa but it will be on two days as it is far and it's difficult to travel in Japan. Consider we won't have such an opportunity very often in our life it's worth it! There are some excursion to the Nansow garden (2h from Tokyo) too everydays. Pierre pierre@piloucarni.com http://www.piloucarni.com/ ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Wed Jan 30 06:28:55 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:28:45 EST Subject: Re: warnings about aquarium heaters Hi List, I had these fears going into this scenario. I was going to set up something like this three years ago. I have a submersible heater still in the package. I had a turtle tank in my 40 gallon 18 years ago that I let the water get too low and the submersible heater cracked. The turtles were fine but when I reached it, I got shocked somehow(the turtles were not getting electrocuted). Having a covering should make the difference. Regards, Joe Griffin, Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: tfw@dol.net Wed Jan 30 06:35:25 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:19:44 -0800 Subject: wooden Orchid baskets Hello, I am going to try making some wooden Orchid baskets. Does anyone know of woods that wouldn't be compatible with the orchids? I would like to use recycled woods, probably oak. I might even sell some of them....... Thank you if you have any info. Sincerely, Tristan Werner ################### From: willows@rose.net Wed Jan 30 08:36:49 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:37:27 -0500 Subject: google pics I sent a corrected email & it didn't seem to have gotten posted. You can get lots of CP pictures by going to: http://www.google.com/images When you get there just type in the name of the CP and you will get lots of pics. James A. Rollins SW Georgia, USA [mailto:willows@rose.net] ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 30 08:59:03 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:58:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Official ICPS opinion on S. alabamensis, N. clipeata, etc. Hey Dave, Mike, etc., Buying tc-propagated endangered plants at your local Home Depot etc. is not a problem for you as a buyer. What would I do in this situation? I'd just pull out my notebook that includes all my information re: endangered plants in my collection, and enter the date of purchase, number of plants, and the accession number I gave the plants obtained in the purchase. I'd probably also tape in the receipt for the purchase. Why all the hassle? So I can show that I made a good-faith attempt to document all my purchases and transactions. I'm confident that if I showed this to inquisitive (federal) eyes, they'd be much happier than if I just had a completely undocumented collection of endangered species plants. Again, this is NOT any "official" ICPS opinion. This is just the small amount of effort that I consider to be a wise, precautionary practice. It makes me feel comfortable in growing plants that have restrictions on trade. Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Wed Jan 30 09:12:09 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:12:07 -0800 Subject: Re: warnings about aquarium heaters >i thought i had made all of the safety concerns ron mentions clear in my >article, but perhaps not. I was just giving a general caution. I was referring to your article per se, as I first heard about it from several other people who have used this type setup with aquarium heaters. >it certainly helps to keep an aquarium heated in this way "tightly sealed" That is true. In my case, I did have the top open just a crack for circulation. There were 3 inches of water at the bottom of the tank, and it took less then two days for the water level to drop low enough to expose the heater to the air. Tighly sealed is the key word here. If the tank becomes accidently unsealed or springs a leak, then you run the fire hazard risk. I would be very anxious to go on an extended vacation and leave such a setup unattended. After personally experiencing a near-meltdown situation, I've decided it was not worth the risk. Of course, that is my opinion. The way I heat my tanks, is instead of using an aquarium heater, I place the tank on a heating pad. I use a heating pad that is enclosed in a metal cage, so the tank sits about an inch above the heating pad. I also use a thermostat to control the temperature. It just happens that the thermostat has a built-in safety feature in that it will shut itself off if it ever reaches 110 degrees F. I normally set the temperature at 80 degrees F during the day, and drop it to 60 degrees F at night. I also have water in the bottom of the tank for humidity. I've paid extra for this setup, but I also have piece of mind. There is no fire hazard risk to deal with like there is when using the aquarium heater. Ron ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Wed Jan 30 13:26:26 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:26:23 +1100 Subject: Hybrids and Cultivars How does one go about naming a Hybrid or cultivar? If a hybrid is named, say D. Capiciae (capensis x aliciae), is the name Capiciae only true to the one specific plant that was named? Therefore if you wish to grow the True D. Capiciae you require a vegetative part of the original named plant? Seedlings from the same batch of seed that produced the plant named D. Capiciae may show different characteristics, different amounts of either parent and can be given specific names. Does this mean that one could end up with the same cross having a huge amount of official Hybrid names? Is the same situation true for cultivars. Why some lists show more than 30 Dionaea muscipula. I grow many of these plants in all different shapes and colours from crosses I've made myself but to me they are just Dionaea muscipula. Regards Greg MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: andreas@wistuba.com Wed Jan 30 13:48:54 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:48:41 +0100 Subject: Heliamphora folliculata and webpage relaunch Dear all, I just wanted to let you know that I've placed numerous pictures of the brandnew Heliamphora folliculata on our webpage at http://www.wistuba.com I also started to almost completely redesign the webpage and added many new pictures of other carnivorous plants. Many more are already scanned and will follow over the coming weeks and months. The remaining "old" parts of the site will disappear over the next weeks. The whole look and feel of the page has been changed and besides the normal images many are also available now in high resolution. If you have any feedback, positive or negative, please let me know - I'm happy for any comment. I hope you like the new navigation and the image galleries. Bye Andreas ################### From: CALIFCARN@aol.com Wed Jan 30 14:14:11 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:14:04 EST Subject: Re: Slide Show I know it's short notice, and most folks work, but I'll be giving a slide show at Cal Expo in Sacramento California on Friday (tomorrow) Feb 1st, at 3:15 pm. Peter at California Carnivores. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: dpevans@rci.rutgers.edu Wed Jan 30 14:16:30 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:12:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Heliamphora folliculata and webpage relaunch Dear Andreas, The new layout of your page is a great improvement for navigation! The way the photos are displayed by location is very nice too. Dave Evans > http://www.wistuba.com ################### From: K.Cook@bom.gov.au Wed Jan 30 15:29:12 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:58:30 +0930 Subject: December CPN Yay!!! The Kon Tiki has arrived bringing with it the December edition of CPN. Regarding Drosera hartmeyerorum, I reckon the Hartmeyers were almost correct when they thought the yellow blobs were butterfly eggs. My guess is that they are pseudo-eggs, "designed" to deter butterflies from laying eggs on the plant. This strategy is employed by the passion flower to deter the Heliconius butterfly from laying eggs on it (the butterflies won't lay eggs where there are already a lot of eggs, otherwise there would be insufficient food). See "Secret Life of Plants" first episode. Cheers, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Wed Jan 30 15:53:06 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:27:47 -0600 Subject: Re: aphrodisiac?? CAUTION! >> I would like to remind all enthusiasts that some of >these plants contain significant amounts of coniine. Cool! ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Wed Jan 30 16:02:48 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:56:42 -0800 Subject: Re: December CPN Interesting theory. I know that certain species of Lupin do that here in California too. They put a little white dot on some of their leaves. I don't remember that name of the butterfly, but they will only lay a single egg on a plant. If there is already one there, they won't do it. Stephen At 03:32 PM 1/30/2002 -0800, you wrote: >....I reckon the Hartmeyers were almost >correct when they thought the yellow blobs were butterfly eggs. My guess >is that they are pseudo-eggs, "designed" to deter butterflies from laying >eggs on the plant. This strategy is employed by the passion flower to >deter the Heliconius butterfly from laying eggs on it (the butterflies >won't lay eggs where there are already a lot of eggs, otherwise there would >be insufficient food). See "Secret Life of Plants" first episode. > >Cheers, > >Kevin Cook >Darwin >Australia Stephen W. Davis Primary: 408-229-2264 Mobile: 408-391-9575 Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Wed Jan 30 17:06:39 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:06:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Gardening With Carnivores ----- Original Message ----- However, my Home-depot refugee S.rubras I > have yet to identify with any confidence (gulfensis?), and alas, this book > only added another dimension to my confusion. I don't think I've read two > books that approached them the same way, so as far as I'm concerned 'rubra' > is as deep as it gets. This is a hobby, it is supposed to be fun, and not > in a rubik's cube kind of way. Without seeing your S. rubra, I would bet it is S. rubra alabamensis. This is the plant in commercial propagation and is being sold at Home-Depot or Wal-mart in little pots. Mike' S. Petersburg Florida ################### From: fe_riva@uol.com.br Wed Jan 30 17:23:00 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:23:19 -0200 Subject: Re: December CPN and D.hart-blablabla-watchamakalit-orum Dear Kevin and all, >Regarding Drosera hartmeyerorum, I reckon the Hartmeyers were almost correct when they thought the yellow blobs were butterfly eggs. My guess is that they are pseudo-eggs, "designed" to deter butterflies from laying eggs on the plant. This strategy is employed by the passion flower to deter the Heliconius butterfly from laying eggs on it (the butterflies won't lay eggs where there are already a lot of eggs, otherwise there would be insufficient food). See "Secret Life of Plants" first episode. BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You've won the lottery!!!! Give this man the million dollars he deserves along with the Nobel prize!!! Sound the alarm!!! WOW!!!!!!! OF COURSE!!!!!!!! I now remember this bit of the program too, congratulations on your memory Kevin, you put 2 and 2 together! I don't know if this is true or not, but it's sure the BEST EXPLANATION I'VE HEARD SO FAR!! It makes perfect sense and matches all the known info! The only missing fact is whether or not there are insects whose larvae eat D.indica -- and whose eggs are yellowish of course! Anybody??? We should ask Robert Gibson and Allen Lowrie! Best Wishes, Fernando P.S. Matt and all, sorry I haven't answered all your mails, but I'm on the run as always. I promise I'll get down to it over the next few days. So no need to fill my mailbox even further, ok? :):):) [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tfw@dol.net Wed Jan 30 19:10:37 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:53:38 -0800 Subject: Re: D. harmeyerorum Hello everyone, I somehow don't think the plant would need to deter butterflies in any way. Butterflies and moths have large wings, but from the pictures it looks like D. harmeyerorum would have an easy time catching any large winged insect. My theory is that it would attract an egg eating insect. Something like an ant or termite. Kind of like the method employed by Nepenthes albomarginata. So in short I agree with the idea of a "pseudo egg". Sincerely, Tristan Werner ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Wed Jan 30 19:51:32 2002 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:20:45 -0600 Subject: Re: RE: CP's for zone 5 bog garden? Susan, Could you elaborate on that? I've wondered if I could keep Darlingtonia cool in my water garden. (and my psittacina is MIA!) Wayne 1/29/02 6:49:51 AM, Susan Farrington wrote: >S. psittacina. >I have had the best luck growing it in >a pot sitting IN my little pond ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Wed Jan 30 21:19:49 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:19:40 EST Subject: duh To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com Subject: warnings about aquarium heaters Message-ID: <3C579470.2F670D4D@kc.rr.com> I had a humidifier meltdown after it went dry-- early in Dec. Lost the greenhouse and everything but a two palms and one Sarracenia that was in my porta bog. 4 weeks to the day the house next door caught fire and burnt half the poly off my new greenhouse I built to replace the first one.-- Old Muphy sometimes like to prove his laws the hard way. Man, that's just how I feel! A meteor hit my planet a while ago, and 80 percent of the species living died. It really sucked. And this was millions of years before murphy was even born! Seriosly, have you ever heard of ground fault interuptors?, [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Wed Jan 30 21:37:46 2002 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:37:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Rubras > Without seeing your S. rubra, I would bet it is S. rubra alabamensis. Thanks. The tallest pitchers are almost a foot tall, and they are all deep red with only little green at the base of the plant (after a season in full sun). They were from Booman Nursery. ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Wed Jan 30 22:50:04 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:49:58 -0600 Subject: Hmlock, glow in the dark sundew, etc Jan, I was wondering about this. But then again, Aconitum is used as tonic in TCM. If I remember correctly, Aconitum "works for men." Personally, I would try Epimedium instead. I think anti cancer compound (forgot which one) has been isolated from S. flava if I remember correctly. I don't know if anybody is still studying the compound. Marcus, I don't know of a commercial products, but you may want to check this webpage: http://health.yahoo.com/health/Alternative_Medicine/Herbal_Remedies_Tree/Herbal_Remedies/sundew/ I just read a paper on Agrobacterium mediated genetic transformation of D. rotundifolia. They used rather unusual high amount of kanamycin (400mg/L?) for selection since this species was highly tolerant of the antibiotic. This study was done in Finland. The used the luciferase gene as a reporter gene, so this sundew should glow in the dark! Insect eating plants that glow in the dark!!! Now, that's something new. I think I have read about their project plan, and I am not too sure if people are ready for genetically modified medicinal plants in Europe. I read a paper on cell suspension culture of Triphyophyllum for naphthoquinone production some time ago. It was in Plant Cell Reports, I think. Jan, are you a co-author of this paper? Pierre and Barry, It is not difficult to travel in Japan. That may be so for visitors from other countries, but it is nothing different in US or anywhere else. Sometimes I cannot believe I made it to Columbus, OH from Osaka, Japan via Columbus, Georgia. The traveling agancy gave me a wrong ticket. I was waiting people from Ohio State, and wondering why nobody was there. I admit Mount Koushin/Kohshin where P. ramosa grows may be a little hard to access, though. I think Japanese spell "Nansou," "Nanso," or "Nansoh." Personally I think "Nansow" sounds and looks better than others, though. Jan, Is this name valid? Isn't this similar to the case of N. X ventrata? Greg, Segregation of phenotypic characteristics does not neccessarily occur all the time. No, I don't think they can be given "specific" names. I am sure Jan knows much more than I do. That's why orchid people use the grex system. Maybe I shouldn't say this to avoid confusion, but you can give clonal or cultivar names all you want. But they are not going to be official unless you register. MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 31 02:35:45 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:36:02 +0100 Subject: astronomy/geology Murphy Dear fellow universe (incl. life and everything) enthusiasts, well, it is rather Barry who is the expert in this field (above 10000 m alt.) but in order to keep our community informed, I would like to comment on a previous message by our President: > Man, that's just how I feel! A meteor hit my planet a while ago, Technically, as soon as the thing *hits* our beloved planet's condensed surface it becomes by definition a meteor*ite* (losing its "virgin" meteor status). We usually don't have to fear *meteors* as long as they remain what they are, viz. particles entering the earth's atmosphere (and abandoning their condensed state there due to friction losses), usually visible at night as fast moving bright objects in the sky. Attention! Slow, red, blue or blinking things in the sky are usually not meteors but aeroplanes - they are far more dangerous. > and 80 percent of the species living died. So far noone was killed by demonstrable, direct interaction with a *meteor*. Yes, I have heard about the Mark Twain/comet story etc. but this kind of interaction is rather indirect and metaphysical. Anyway, there is no reason to believe Cretaceous biodiversity was adversely affected this way. On the other hand, millions of organisms have probably been wiped out (a while ago, indeed) in +/- direct consequence of a meteor*ite* impact. Yes, this is a dangerous place to live, but after all there are worse risks (Hey, some nasty "recent" glaciations consumed my native flora almost completely!) than incoming gobbets from above once in 1E8a. Take care! Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 31 05:18:41 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:47:54 +0100 Subject: Re: Hybrids and Cultivars Dear Greg, Hideka, > If a hybrid is named, say D. Capiciae (capensis x aliciae), is the name > Capiciae only true to the one specific plant that was named? "capiciae" is formally a condensed formula according to the ICBN (Art.H.10.3.) and is a specific epithet in a taxonomic plant name (used for scientific purposes of discussing all hybrid plants involving the same parents, irrespective of generation, direction, or repetition). The name _Drosera capiciae_ has, however, never been validated properly (according to the ICBN a Latin description must be published and must be accompanied by the designation of a permanently conserved type specimen). Thus, _D. capiciae_ is an invalid name (not acceptable in taxonomic discussions). "Capiciae" is not acceptable as a cultivar epithet because it is (corrupted from) Latin (see ICNCP Art.17.9.). > Therefore if > you wish to grow the True D. Capiciae you require a vegetative part of the > original named plant? The first and largest problem is, the name was never defined and published properly, so there is no "original named plant" in the present case. There is no "true" _D. capiciae_ (formally, there is no "D. capiciae" at all because this name is invalid). If _D. capiciae_ was ever validated, this (ICBN) hybrid name would apply to any and all plants that resulted from whatever hybridization between the two mentioned parent species. > Seedlings from the same batch of seed that produced > the plant named D. Capiciae may show different characteristics, different > amounts of either parent and can be given specific names. Not really "specific" (=at the ICBN/taxonomic rank of species) names, but they could of course be given (ICNCP) cultivar names if considered sufficiently distinct for the horticultural trade. > Does this mean > that one could end up with the same cross having a huge amount of official > Hybrid names? This depends on what you consider "official hybrid names". For a taxonomist, all these plants belong to the same taxon because the ICBN/taxonomic hybrid name applies to all offspring involving the same taxa as parents. In a horticultural context different plants from within the same taxon (whether this taxon is a hybrid or not) may be selected as different ICNCP cultivars if this serves the purposes of horticulture. For both taxonomists and horticulturists, the hybrid origin of a plant has nothing to do with its name. The hybrid sign (a multiplication cross) is not part of the epithet, it is just regarded an additional information and may be left out (you may write _D. obovata_ even if you are discussing the sterile hybrid the name of which is usually written _D. x obovata_). Nomenclaturally, hybrids and "pure" species are treated as equivalent (because in taxonomy the hybrid status of a plant is not always clear beyond doubt and in horticulture the parentage of hybrids is not always known). > Is the same situation true for cultivars. v.s. > Why some lists show more than 30 Dionaea muscipula. There are only 8 registered cultivar names in the denomination class _Dionaea_. > I grow many of these plants in all different shapes and colours from > crosses I've made myself but to me they are just Dionaea muscipula. That is just fine as long as you do not use registered names in a way conflicting with their original descriptions or bogus names that have never been registered. Nobody needs to use any cultivar name but if someone would like to use them, he/she should make sure the names are used according to the rules. Kind regards Jan ################### From: sundew@hotmail.com Thu Jan 31 06:23:17 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:25:50 -0500 Subject: Re: December CPN and D.hart-blablabla-watchamakalit-orum The butterfly egg hypothesis sounds like a really good 1 - I guess someone would have to do some work in the field to figure out if it's true. Are there normal indica in the same areas? (I havent been following this thread much). >P.S. Matt and all, sorry I haven't answered all your mails, but I'm >on the run as always. I promise I'll get down to it over the next >few days. So no need to fill my mailbox even further, ok? :):):) Thats what I told everyone else!! Matt ################### From: sundew@hotmail.com Thu Jan 31 06:26:39 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:29:16 -0500 Subject: Re:D. harmeyerorum Hi Tristan, I was thinking the same thing for a bit but when butterfly eggs hatch, they turn into catterpillars which can probably eat the plants stem and kill the plant in no time. These egg-like bodies appear on the stem, below the tentacles, don't they? Where is that darn CPN.... Matt >Hello everyone, I somehow don't think the plant would need to deter butterflies in any way. Butterflies and moths have large wings, but from the pictures it looks like D. harmeyerorum would have an easy time catching any large winged insect. My theory is that it would attract an egg eating insect. Something like an ant or termite. Kind of like the method employed by Nepenthes albomarginata. So in short I agree with the idea of a "pseudo egg". Sincerely, Tristan Werner ################### From: willows@rose.net Thu Jan 31 07:32:00 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:32:48 -0500 Subject: Google CP pics If you want pictures of CPs try this: http://www.google.com/images Just enter the name of a CP you are interested in. James A. Rollins SW Georgia, USA [mailto:willows@rose.net] ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Thu Jan 31 08:34:07 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:33:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Rubras Well I would lose the bet, those are not S. rubra alabamensis. Mike St. Petersburg Fl ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:43 AM > > > Without seeing your S. rubra, I would bet it is S. rubra alabamensis. > > Thanks. The tallest pitchers are almost a foot tall, and they are all deep > red with only little green at the base of the plant (after a season in full > sun). They were from Booman Nursery. > ################### From: hybrid_t@hotmail.com Thu Jan 31 11:39:25 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:39:19 Subject: BACPS meeting Could someone please remind me where the BACPS meeting on the 2nd is? And what time it starts? Thanks in advance, Tierney Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: DougWitkowski@netscape.net Thu Jan 31 19:25:19 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:25:03 -0500 Subject: Central Texas CP'ers?? I am brand new to this list and was wondering if there was anyone located in or near the central Texas area. We have extreme summer temperature challenges here and would like to discuss techniques. thanks! Doug Witkowski -- Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: CMcdon0923@aol.com Thu Jan 31 21:26:13 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:26:08 EST Subject: Re: Central Texas CP'ers?? Doug, What part of central Texas? I know there's at least one member on the list from Lubbock, and at least two of us from the D/FW Metroplex area. Craig ################### From: jt394997@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Thu Jan 31 21:40:48 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:40:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Plant Evolution Sources Hi, I'm doing a paper for my Plant Speciation class on Carnivorous Plant evolution and was wondering if anyone knows of any good books or journal articles on this topic. I'm having trouble finding sources. thanks, Jay ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Thu Jan 31 21:56:15 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:56:08 -0600 Subject: Central Texas CP'ers?? Hey, Doug, I'm up in Dallas. I grow mostly Sarracenia, a few Nepenthes, and other random plants... My 'pet' plants are sarrs, though. Feel free to send any questions. I'd be interested in getting techniques from other Texans as well. > I am brand new to this list and was wondering if there was anyone located in > or near the central Texas area. We have extreme summer temperature challenges > here and would like to discuss techniques. > > thanks! > > Doug Witkowski ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Thu Jan 31 21:59:01 2002 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:58:56 -0600 Subject: Re: Rubras I hate to look at a picture and say 'that's it...' but they look very, very similar to the 'Velvety Red' cultivar in "Gardening with Carnivores.' They don't really resemble anything in 'Savage Garden.' Thanks for helping, though. > Well I would lose the bet, those are not S. rubra alabamensis. > Mike ################### From: K.Cook@bom.gov.au Thu Jan 31 23:11:25 2002 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:40:59 +0930 Subject: D. harmeyerorum > I somehow don't think the plant would need to deter butterflies in any >way. Butterflies and moths have large wings, but from the pictures it >looks like D. harmeyerorum would have an easy time catching any large >winged insect. My theory is that it would attract an egg eating insect. >Something like an ant or termite. Kind of like the method employed by >Nepenthes albomarginata. So in short I agree with the idea of a "pseudo >egg". If these structures are mimicking insect eggs (whether it be to attract or deter insects) it is a visual trick. As such, it is unlikely that they would attract ants or termites. Something like nectar would be far more effective. Their colour and position makes it more likely that they are meant to fool flying creatures with good eyesight. If they are there to attract egg eaters, one would expect some of the structures to have been eaten. On the other hand, if they are there to deter egg layers, one would expect the occasional real eggs (and, later, caterpillar ravaged plants). It is possible the leaves droop during dry periods or that the butterfly is able to hold on to the flower scape while laying. Yes, field work is required. Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Fri Feb 1 02:39:26 2002 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 05:39:17 -0500 Subject: RE: D. harmeyerorum Hi Kevin-- Here, in San Francisco, I've seen what look like cabbage moth caterpillars grazing the tentacles off my D. dichotoma. They don't eat the lamina, but will strip an entire leaf of its tentacles, rendering it useless as a trap. I've never seen it on my D. binata multifida, D. capensis nor any of my other Drosera. I'm assuming there's a butterfly within D. hartmeyerorum's range that specializes in Drosera tentacles? Gary Kong Kevin Cook wrote: > > >> I somehow don't think the plant would need to deter butterflies in any >>way. Butterflies and moths have large wings, but from the pictures it >>looks like D. harmeyerorum would have an easy time catching any large >>winged insect. My theory is that it would attract an egg eating insect. >>Something like an ant or termite. Kind of like the method employed by >>Nepenthes albomarginata. So in short I agree with the idea of a "pseudo >>egg". > >If these structures are mimicking insect eggs (whether it be to attract or >deter insects) it is a visual trick. As such, it is unlikely that they >would attract ants or termites. Something like nectar would be far more >effective. Their colour and position makes it more likely that they are >meant to fool flying creatures with good eyesight. > >If they are there to attract egg eaters, one would expect some of the >structures to have been eaten. On the other hand, if they are there to >deter egg layers, one would expect the occasional real eggs (and, later, >caterpillar ravaged plants). > >It is possible the leaves droop during dry periods or that the butterfly is >able to hold on to the flower scape while laying. > >Yes, field work is required. > >Kevin Cook >Darwin >Australia > > -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: willows@rose.net Fri Feb 1 09:29:31 2002 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:29:49 -0500 Subject: Book and squirrels Can someone supply the specifics for ordering the book: "Gardening With Carnivores : Sarracenia Pitcher Plants in Cultivation & in the Wild" Also, anyone have any ideas for keeping squirrels from digging in my CP bog? (Other than an unsightly fence or shooting them.) James A. Rollins SW Georgia, USA [mailto:willows@rose.net] ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Fri Feb 1 09:56:53 2002 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:54:50 -0800 Subject: Re: Book and squirrels Hi, I believe Amazon has the book for sale. For the squirrels I've done 2 things. First is use the Scarecrow, which is a motion sensored sprinkler. It can be set to be fairly sensitive, and I've seen it go off with squirrels. It works better with raccoons, cats, and me however. You can buy it at OSH for about $65. The second method is most effective, but harder to do. I did it by accident. Make another area that is more attractive to their digging where you don't care what they do. I put down a bunch of very fine redwood bark/mulch in my garden and on the paths through it. The squirrels love it, and their digging isn't that noticeable. Most of their digging is on the pathway and on its' edges. I've only had one small incident since then. Stephen W. Davis www.carnivorousplant.homestead.com Email: stephend@direcpc.com At 09:30 AM 2/1/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Can someone supply the specifics for ordering the book: >"Gardening With Carnivores : Sarracenia Pitcher Plants in Cultivation & >in the Wild" >Also, anyone have any ideas for keeping squirrels from digging in my CP >bog? (Other than an unsightly fence or shooting them.) >James A. Rollins >SW Georgia, USA >[mailto:willows@rose.net] ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Fri Feb 1 10:04:21 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:04:14 -0800 Subject: Re: Book and squirrels On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:30:23AM -0800, Rollins wrote: > > Can someone supply the specifics for ordering the book: > "Gardening With Carnivores : Sarracenia Pitcher Plants in Cultivation & > in the Wild" Go to http://www.amazon.com or http://www.barnsandnoble.com and search for "Gardening With Carnivores". Barns and Noble has it in stock. Amazon is still listing it as "pre-order". > Also, anyone have any ideas for keeping squirrels from digging in my CP > bog? (Other than an unsightly fence or shooting them.) Go and search/read the archives: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cplist/Search.php Search on "squirrel" in "Subject and Body". Then I would drop the subject about squirrels. The last time it was bought up on the mailing list, it all turned unpleasant and caused a number of people to leave - and generally just turned the list to something useless for a while. Thanks.. chuckr ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Fri Feb 1 10:12:18 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:00:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Dec CPN/D. hart >Regarding Drosera hartmeyerorum, I reckon the Hartmeyers were almost correct when they thought the yellow blobs were butterfly eggs. My guess is that they are pseudo-eggs, "designed" to deter butterflies from laying eggs on the plant. This strategy is employed by the passion flower to deter the Heliconius butterfly from laying eggs on it (the butterflies won't lay eggs where there are already a lot of eggs, otherwise there would be insufficient food). Cheers, Kevin Cook G'day Kevin and all, Good'onya mate! I have been looking into this idea and already asked Robert Gibson. Below is my question and his answer. I have a photo of a regular green D. indica from Leinster, WA. The plant is covered with captured little blue butterflies. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California >>I have now a plant of D. hartmeyerorum. It really exists! I'm trying to figure out what those organs are for. They are clearly tentacle derived. Did you tell me D. indica often seen hosting caterpillars? -Ivan >I'm pleased that you now have a plant of D. hartemeyorum, and I look forward to your observations of the glands. No, I have not seen caterpillars on D. indica, but then again have only seen plants of this complex in three locations (Leinster, Narrabri and Cairns)... Cheers, Robert http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Fri Feb 1 10:12:49 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:12:43 -0800 Subject: Re: Gardening With Carnivores On Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 10:53:55PM -0800, Blake Harris wrote: > > > My copy arrived last Friday, and although it isn't a huge book, it's > a nice complement to the other books available, and very informative. > If you collect sarracenias, it's definitely a must-have. > > If you are learning to hybridize or propagate from seed, the > instructions here are very specific, with photos. > > There is the mandatory 'creating a bog garden' section. > > And a section on farming sarracenias for the floral industry, and > pitchers as cut flowers, if that interests you... Chopping off > pitchers for show is a few notches above clubbing baby seals in my > book. But to each his own. Actually, a vase full of cut pitchers is quite striking. I hadn't even thought of the idea of cutting down full size, vibrant pitchers, until one day while shopping at Neiman Marcus in San Francisco. While trying to find something to do with my time in the "junior miss" department, I came across a square vase, about 4" x 4" *packed* with Sarracenia leucophylla pitchers! Nice ones. Each one a perfect pitcher. After getting over the initial shock (the "clubbing baby seals" feeling in the pit of my stomach), I realized the arrangement was quite pretty and had the desired effect of making people take notice. Still won't catch me doing that though..... (All the pitchers were empty (no bugs), so I imagine these were nursery grown plants. That helped me sleep that night.) Along these lines, I have a friend who's getting married in Australia in February, and the groom will be wearing a lapel flower arrangement made with Sarracenia flowers! Lucky him. Chuckr ---- End forwarded message ----- ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Fri Feb 1 10:18:00 2002 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:17:52 EST Subject: Re: Book and squirrels Oh My...Is this the beginning of ... SQUIRREL WAR 2002!!!? I sure hope not. I hope we are more level-headed this year, as a whole. I stayed out of this last year, but I would guess the squirrel is hiding some of his cache of nuts in your bog. I found a wild walnut in a opened bail of peat this last Summer, and that was the only explanation I could come up with. A younger version of me would have used a tendertrap(a live trap) and relocated the squirrel miles away. If it keeps happening, I can't think of any other option besides shooting them. It's the squirrels or your plants. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Fri Feb 1 10:22:56 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:22:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Book and squirrels > Search on "squirrel" in "Subject and Body". > > Then I would drop the subject about squirrels. The last time > it was bought up on the mailing list, it all turned unpleasant > and caused a number of people to leave - and generally just > turned the list to something useless for a while. > > Thanks.. > > chuckr ..Thats right, I dare not talk of the nasty rodents here again. Mike St. Petersburg Florida > > ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Fri Feb 1 12:23:45 2002 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:23:26 -0500 Subject: Gliocladium virens (AKA Trichoderma) Hi Everyone-- I just purchased a granular form of this through Gardens Alive! On the package, they recommend mixing 1/8 cup (1 oz.) to 1/2 cu. ft. of medium. Well, because I'll be mixing several different soils, I will be mixing much smaller batches than 1/2 cu. ft. Does anyone have any suggestions how much I should use per gallon of media? Thanks a bunch! Gary Kong -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: neps@plantswithattitude.com Fri Feb 1 12:42:41 2002 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:47:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Gliocladium virens (AKA Trichoderma) Hi Gary, I have been using a product called Root Shield, and have been using it at a concentration of 1 tblsp per gallon of water. I've used it on several hundred Nepenthes, with no ill effects observed thus far. In fact, I do believe that some plants afflicted with pathogenic fungi have recovered as a consequence of this treatment. Overall, however, it is still too early for me to assess the effectiveness of this product. Regards, Jeff Shafer Gary Kong wrote: > > > Hi Everyone-- > > I just purchased a granular form of this through Gardens Alive! On > the package, they recommend mixing 1/8 cup (1 oz.) to 1/2 cu. ft. > of medium. Well, because I'll be mixing several different soils, I > will be mixing much smaller batches than 1/2 cu. ft. Does anyone > have any suggestions how much I should use per gallon of media? > Thanks a bunch! > > Gary Kong -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako > > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. > Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! > http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at > http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: mrmacophyl@southwest.net Fri Feb 1 13:22:53 2002 Date: 01 Feb 2002 13:23:59 -0800 Subject: Petiolaris Leaf Cuttings Thhis is a response to a message of a few days ago, but was unable to get the thing to post. however thanks to Rick Walker the problem should be cleared so here goes. I have had fairly decent results with leaf cuttings with what used to be D. sp. kununurra (come on petiolaris Sean refresh my aging memeory) and D. falconeri. Also less successful with dilatato petiolaris and petiolaris. The method that I found to work best was to peal the entire leaf from the plant, carefully... and them plant them with just the main portion of the leaf protruding from pure Sphagnum moss, I them enclosed the pot in a plastic bag and waited, the pots were placed under my green house bench so they got filtered light. The process was a little slow but I usually got around an 80% success rate. with this method I had pottable plants in around three months. ################### From: fe_riva@uol.com.br Fri Feb 1 13:58:46 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:58:56 -0200 Subject: Re: D. harmeyerorum Tristan and all, > I somehow don't think the plant would need to deter butterflies in any way. Butterflies and moths have large wings, but from the pictures it looks like D. harmeyerorum would have an easy time catching any large winged insect. My theory is that it would attract an egg eating insect. Something like an ant or termite. Kind of like the method employed by Nepenthes albomarginata. So in short I agree with the idea of a "pseudo egg". I just thought of another possibility. Key word: ASSASIN BUGS! I don't remember if this is the correct name for these creatures, but I'm referring to those insects which live on the leaves of Byblis in Australia (and if I'm not mistaken on some local Drosera too), feeding on captured prey just like those other bugs that live on Roridula in S.Africa and like a fly larva I've observed on a few Brazilian Drosera species. In fact, if I remember well there were even suggestions that Byblis and Roridula get most of their nitrogen from the feces of these bugs, and not directly from the captured prey through digestion/ decomposition. Anyways, I don't remember if these assasin bugs are present all over Australia, but I do know they're found in N Australia because I saw them on B.liniflora several years ago when I was there. If I remember well they're sort of orangish, similarly to those weird structures on D.hartmeyerorum. So my question to all ozzies is: are these assasin bugs found on members of the D.indica-complex??? And even if not, D.indica-complex is the most similar Drosera there is to Byblis (where I'm sure these critters thrive), likely to fool at least some insects (see hypotheses below). I can think of 3 hypotheses involving asssasin bugs and the weird emergences on D.hartmeyerorum leaves. They could resemble assasin bugs and therefore....: 1.) deter winged assasin bug adults from laying eggs on plants where its offspring could face strong competition. 2.) attract winged assasin bug adults into thinking it was a good plant (= Byblis?) to lay their eggs on. 3.) attract winged insects which prey on assasin bugs. I guess one of the main questions to answer the above are: What does D.hartm. catch? Are D.hartm. prey different from those captured by regular D.indica? Are assasin bugs present on both D.indica and D.hartm.? On D.indica only/ mainly? On neither? Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil P.S. I guess I'm excited with this subject cause I just received my December CPN **TODAY**! Finally!! [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: pmalouf@iamdigex.net Fri Feb 1 13:59:30 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:59:13 -0500 Subject: results... Hi Jeff, I saw your recent posting to the listserver, and it reminded me that I haven't heard any news of results you may have achieved with the seeds I sent you a while ago. What ever became of them? Perry ################### From: pmalouf@iamdigex.net Fri Feb 1 14:01:42 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:01:30 -0500 Subject: apologies all.... Hi all, I mistakenly sent a note to the listserver, when the note was intended for Jeff Shafer. Sorry I inconvenienced everyone, particularly those whose mailboxes have limited capacity. Regards, Perry Malouf [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Fri Feb 1 14:11:36 2002 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:11:34 +1100 Subject: Re: Hybrids and Cultivars G'day Jan, and all Thanks for the input. I guess D. Capiciae was a bad example for me to use. I now have a much better understanding of the subject. I've been to the ICPS page and done a bit of homework. Perhaps later this year I can publish something and the plant may be of interest to some growers. No it's not another VFT. Regards Greg Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: mindmaze@msn.com Fri Feb 1 16:15:27 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:15:09 -0400 Subject: Nep watering question and OH THE HORROR (squirrels!!!!) I was looking at my plants today, and I noticed that some of the newer leaves of one of them was turning yellow. I thought that it was some sort of pest, but there wasn't anything on the plant. I now think that it's a lack of water; it has lots of leaves, and it looks like all the water that comes down over it gets diverted, so that little water actually gets deep into the soil. I just want to know what other users of this listserv think. I also have a comment on the squirrels (don't worry, it's brief). I wasn't on the listserv when the original "squirrel wars" began, so I went to the CP listserv archives and checked it out. ALL I can say is that, although it's funny to read at the beginning, it gets WAY out of hand by the end. So lets all agree on one thing, lets NOT make another "Squirrel War." I actually find this listserv rather useful, and I would hate to have it rendered useless for a month or more. Joel [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: kweaver@ruthchek.com Fri Feb 1 16:18:06 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:14:31 -0800 Subject: Sarracenia transplanting Does anyone out there repot their Sarracenia's every year? Wouldn't this negatively impact growth for the coming season? Also, will cutting off the flower spike as it starts to appear drastically produce larger pitchers in the long run? By the way, I bought (rescued) a S. purpurea from Safeway (our local supermarket) and gave it some time to grow and it turns out it is a beautiful, fat, ruffled leaf variety! And Barry, I bought a Sarracenia at the Berkeley Botanical Gardens that was labelled S. oreophylla x alata, but actually looks like a cross with a S. minor. I suspect, since the tags are from UC Davis, this plant may be S. "Imohotep". Can you tell me what that cross is? Thanks! Kevin ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Fri Feb 1 16:32:34 2002 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:32:22 -0500 Subject: RE: Re: Gliocladium virens (AKA Trichoderma) Thanks Jeff-- But the product I'm using is Soilguard and is mixed into the media before transplanting or sowing. There's no mention of dissolving in water, so I hesitate to follow your recommendations. But thanks for the input! Gary Kong neps wrote: > >Hi Gary, > >I have been using a product called Root Shield, and have been >using it at a concentration of 1 tblsp per gallon of water. >I've used it on several hundred Nepenthes, with no ill effects >observed thus far. In fact, I do believe that some plants >afflicted with pathogenic fungi have recovered as a consequence >of this treatment. Overall, however, it is still too early for >me to assess the effectiveness of this product. > >Regards, >Jeff Shafer > >Gary Kong wrote: >> >> Hi Everyone-- >> >> I just purchased a granular form of this through Gardens Alive! On the package, they recommend mixing 1/8 cup (1 oz.) to 1/2 cu. ft. of medium. Well, because I'll be mixing several different soils, I will be mixing much smaller batches than 1/2 cu. ft. Does anyone have any suggestions how much I should use per gallon of media? Thanks a bunch! >> >> Gary Kong >> -- >> "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." >> --Mamako >> >> Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ >> >> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Fri Feb 1 17:29:25 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:29:18 -0800 Subject: Re: Re: Gliocladium virens (AKA Trichoderma) On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:34:17PM -0800, Gary Kong wrote: > > Thanks Jeff-- > > But the product I'm using is Soilguard and is mixed into the media before > transplanting or sowing. There's no mention of dissolving in water, so I > hesitate to follow your recommendations. But thanks for the input! I also bought both "SoilGard" (Gliocladium virens) and "Root Boost Endomycorrhizal Inoculant" from Gardens Alive - mainly because I had a $25 off coupon from their catalog. http://www.gardensalive.com In the info on "Root Boost", they mention: These fungi (of the species Glomus and Gigasport) build a natural microbial system in and on plant roots. Transplants: Apply root Boost directly on or in close contact with plant roots. For smaller trees, shrubs and vines, apply 1/2 tablespoon per plant. For vegetables, strawberries and other row crops, apply 1/2 teaspoon per plant. One pint will cover 200 transplants. Seeds: Apply product in the furrow beneath the seed or rake into the supper soil layer before planting at the rate of 1 pint per 100 row feet. For the "SoilGard" I was going to kind of try the same approach they mention for seeds....apply to the furrow beneath the seed. I'll have to try it and report back on what happens.... chuckr > > > Gary Kong > > neps wrote: > > > > > > >Hi Gary, > > > >I have been using a product called Root Shield, and have been using > >it at a concentration of 1 tblsp per gallon of water. I've used it > >on several hundred Nepenthes, with no ill effects observed thus far. > >In fact, I do believe that some plants afflicted with pathogenic > >fungi have recovered as a consequence of this treatment. Overall, > >however, it is still too early for me to assess the effectiveness of > >this product. > > > >Regards, Jeff Shafer > > > >Gary Kong wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi Everyone-- > >> > >> I just purchased a granular form of this through Gardens Alive! On > >> the package, they recommend mixing 1/8 cup (1 oz.) to 1/2 cu. ft. > >> of medium. Well, because I'll be mixing several different soils, I > >> will be mixing much smaller batches than 1/2 cu. ft. Does anyone > >> have any suggestions how much I should use per gallon of media? > >> Thanks a bunch! > >> > >> Gary Kong -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako > >> > >> Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. > >> Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! > >> http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > >> > >> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at > >> http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > > > > -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako > > > > > > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. > Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! > http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at > http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > > ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Fri Feb 1 17:37:10 2002 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:12:49 -0600 Subject: Re: Nep watering question and OH THE HORROR (squirrels!!!!) My Nepenthes developed yellow leaves. It was 1) overwatering or 2) New lights or 3) Cold. Changing all three, and using the aquarium/heated water concept, I think it was cold. They are very humid and I am gradually moving the new light back. The largest plant won't fit into the heated ten gallon and it is much improved. The only difference for it is temperature. How cold do yours get? Do any of you know about yellow leaves on Dendrobium phalaeonopsis? Wayne Morrow > I was looking at my plants today, and I noticed that some of > the newer leaves of one of them was turning yellow. ################### From: kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Fri Feb 1 18:14:27 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 21:14:43 -0500 Subject: Thanks Swamped with email & no time to discuss anything for a while, but I just wanted to thank everyone who gave me advice on the Sarracenia & the aquatics. Thanks! -Kit -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: bllorber@wcvt.com Fri Feb 1 19:43:55 2002 Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:43:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Book Hi : My copy of Romanowki's "Gardening With Carnivores..." just arrived from Amazon.com despite being listed as "not yet published". It's a thin volume of only 106 pages but definitely worth the price of $20.96 (through Amazon. Retail $29.95). Although I have not completely read the text, the photos are quite nice and the printing and paper quality are excellent. There is a good bibliography and index as well. Think it's a must for any CP lover. Bryan Charlotte, Vermont U.S.A ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 1:08 PM > > On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:30:23AM -0800, Rollins wrote: > > > > Can someone supply the specifics for ordering the book: > > "Gardening With Carnivores : Sarracenia Pitcher Plants in Cultivation & > > in the Wild" > ################### From: mindmaze@msn.com Fri Feb 1 20:03:30 2002 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 00:03:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Nep watering question and OH THE HORROR (squirrels!!!!) I'm sure that It's not the temperature, since it never gets below 70 F over here (Caribbean) . I grow mine outside, where they get direct AM sun (through shade cloth) for 3-4 hours and shade the rest of the day. Humidity fluctuates between 60 and 100% with the highest occurring at night. I forgot to mention that some of the tendrils (I think 3) of the plant dried up. Would that, with a few yellowing leaves, be a symptom of overwatering (I really have no idea)? This is only happening with my largest plant, all my other ones seem fine. I'm watering them right now with a small sprinkler system I made with things from home depot, but I'll water by hand for the next few weeks to see if things improve. Thanks What do other people think? Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Morrow Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:51 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP (squirrels!!!!) My Nepenthes developed yellow leaves. It was 1) overwatering or 2) New lights or 3) Cold. Changing all three, and using the aquarium/heated water concept, I think it was cold. They are very humid and I am gradually moving the new light back. The largest plant won't fit into the heated ten gallon and it is much improved. The only difference for it is temperature. How cold do yours get? Do any of you know about yellow leaves on Dendrobium phalaeonopsis? Wayne Morrow > I was looking at my plants today, and I noticed that some of > the newer leaves of one of them was turning yellow. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: kmagers@kc.rr.com Fri Feb 1 20:35:41 2002 Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 22:35:43 -0600 Subject: Re: duh GFI's kicked in i'm sure once the fire milted through the cord and caused a drain on the current. I was refering to the heat generated by the heating element. It would have been nice if it would have shorted out first instead of setting the plastic housing of fire but it didn't.-- I will leave it at that.-- Davidogray@aol.com wrote: Man, that's just how I feel!-- A meteor hit my planet a while ago, and 80 percent of the species living died.-- It really sucked.-- And this was millions of years before murphy was even born! Seriosly, have you ever heard of ground fault interuptors?, ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Fri Feb 1 21:00:27 2002 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 00:00:16 EST Subject: corrections, etc. Hello all, and Hi Jan, first of all, I did not send the "duh/meteor" message -- gremlins got to my computer and have falsely sent something in my name that I neither wrote, nor signed. (That's my story, and I'm sticking to it...) Jan is quite right that meteors probably aren't responsible for any extinctions, but those pesky meteorites can cause problems. For the record, I do not have any experience with meteorites, or their prevention. I will defer to Jan in this. Secondly, while I do have some experience with aquariums, as I'm sure many others do out there, and I do in fact think ground fault interrupters are a very wise precaution for electricity around water, I would never have suggested it in such a tone... Thirdly, GFI's are not enough to prevent dangerous heater blowouts. One needs to install a fused overload cut-out at the wall plug-in, and always use high-quality heater with an internal cut-out fuse. Cheap equipment is no bargain if it causes a disaster... I think Mike Wilder's system of water-heated terrariums is brilliant, and recommend it highly, if its done safely, as we know he advised. I have used aquarium heaters in small volumes of water for years with very few problems. Fourthly (is that a word?), IF you have NOT yet received your December 2001 issue of the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter, and you are a member in good standing, would you please write me at and tell me in which country you live. I will see that you get your copies. Thanks to all, and, as always, Cheers, David David O. Gray President, International Carnivorous Plant Society 3310 East Yorba Linda Blvd. PMB # 330 Fullerton, CA 92831-1790 A little tip, if you forget the next meeting of the Bay Area Carnivorous Plant Society you can surf to to see all the news about upcoming events (I'm sure all the BACPS wishes many thanks to Albert Huntington for building, hosting, and maintaining this site). [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: danz@nt.tu-darmstadt.de Sat Feb 2 02:00:52 2002 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 11:02:27 +0100 Subject: N. clipeata flowering size? Hi, browsing through the postings concerning the status of N. clipeata I found an intersting comment by Andreas Wistuba: > ... I do not understand that the writer has determined the sexes of my > clones, but rather that he/she has a few males _plus_ two clones from > me. I'd be very surprised, if anybody would already have flowering sized > plants from my clones in such a short time. So does anyone know how long it will take for a N. clipeata to reach flowering size - or how big a plant has to be to flower? The leaf-count, like Clarke mentioned it for N. rafflesiana, would also be sufficient. Many thanks in advance. Joachim -- Joachim Danz danz@nt.tu-darmstadt.de ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Sat Feb 2 08:14:32 2002 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:14:23 EST Subject: Re: Nep watering question and OH THE HORROR (squirrels!!!!) In a message dated 2/1/2002 10:04:53 PM Central Standard Time, mindmaze@msn.com writes: > I'm sure that It's not the temperature, since it never gets below 70 > F over here (Caribbean) . I grow mine outside, where they get > direct AM sun (through shade cloth) for 3-4 hours and shade the rest > of the day. Humidity fluctuates between 60 and 100% with the > highest occurring at night. I forgot to mention that some of the > tendrils (I think 3) of the plant dried up. Would that, with a few > yellowing leaves, be a symptom of overwatering (I really have no > idea)? This is only happening with my largest plant, all my other > ones seem fine. I'm watering them right now with a small sprinkler > system I made with things from home depot, but I'll water by hand > for the next few weeks to see if things improve. Thanks > > What do other people think? > > Joel > Joel, Seeing your climate and the fact that we have nine inches of snow on the ground here, I would have to come there and observe the situation for many weeks to make any conclusions, lol. Which plant is this one? Maybe it is getting a little too much light? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: meadowview@pitcherplant.org Sat Feb 2 08:38:55 2002 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 11:34:55 -0800 Subject: Re: Squirrels and dried pitchers Hi Folks: I saw some of the resurgent comment on squirrels and thought I should point out that the ORIGINAL Brunswick stew, made in Virginia by a colnial hunting party, included squirrel as one of the meats. I think this is an excellent use of this small rodent in the culinary arts. Now, regarding dried pitcher plant leaves. We routinely harvest Sarracenia leaves here, sand dry them to maintain full pitcher form, seal them, and sell them at a variety of shows. This both popularizes the plant and allows us to still have the growing stock for propagation and sale. Some authors have lamented that pitcher harvesting is deleterious to Sarracenia. However, one must consider that Sarracenia have evolved in an environment where periodic fire removes standing crop during growing season burns. So.. careful harvesting of Sarracenia leaves in all likelihood is not harmful to Sarracenia (emphasis CAREFUL). In fact, when carefully done this may revert the plant to a junveline phase and encourage growth. All of this is subject to scientific testing. We have toyed with the idea of setting up these experiments but we are looking at a several year project to adequately test the various hypotheses. This would be a good project for a Masters student and would best be done as a common garden experinment. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Meadowview ################### From: sfdzeqe0@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us Sat Feb 2 11:08:36 2002 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:08:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wayne Morrow, Rollins, Wayne not knowing your other factors I would look into too acedic soil ~ get an orchid mulch or put some ground lava in the soil. Cousin Clem ################### From: venusflytrap@bushinternet.com Sat Feb 2 11:36:13 2002 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:29:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Aquarium heaters. The problem I find with my aquarium heater in the Nepenthes tank is actually the fact that tank fills up with water and I have to take some water out every one or two weeks, to stop the water level reaching the bottoms of the pots. On the subject of whether the heater will sit in enough volume of water to not overheat, one and a quarter inches of water in a tank four feet long is actually quite a volume of water. The man in the heater shop told me that the smaller pencil-type heaters would not be man enough for the job. He reccomended the larger heaters. Regards David Ahrens London ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Sat Feb 2 13:38:55 2002 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:38:43 EST Subject: Looking for Drosera regia! I've kinda ignored this species so far in my CP "career", considering I didn't have much space to grow the plant. However, I'd like to give it a shot now. If anyone has any (small or large plants) for sale, please send me an e-mail! I have many plants for trade or I'll buy if the price is reasonable! Thanks! Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: bllorber@wcvt.com Sat Feb 2 16:25:57 2002 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:25:15 -0500 Subject: Indian Monsoon Please excuse off topic. I just finished reading Alexander Frater's "Chasing The Monsoon". I would love to discuss it with any list members who are from India or those who know that the Monsoon is much more than just a rainy season. Thanks Bryan Charlotte, Vermont U.S.A. ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Sat Feb 2 17:16:57 2002 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:16:47 EST Subject: Re: Nep watering question and OH THE HORROR (squirrels!!!!) In a message dated 2/1/2002 10:04:53 PM Central Standard Time, mindmaze@msn.com writes: > I'm sure that It's not the temperature, since it never gets below 70 > F over here (Caribbean) . I grow mine outside, where they get > direct AM sun (through shade cloth) for 3-4 hours and shade the rest > of the day. Humidity fluctuates between 60 and 100% with the > highest occurring at night. I forgot to mention that some of the > tendrils (I think 3) of the plant dried up. Would that, with a few > yellowing leaves, be a symptom of overwatering (I really have no > idea)? This is only happening with my largest plant, all my other > ones seem fine. I'm watering them right now with a small sprinkler > system I made with things from home depot, but I'll water by hand > for the next few weeks to see if things improve. Thanks > > What do other people think? > What kind of soil is the plant in Joel? Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Sat Feb 2 18:02:33 2002 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 20:38:31 -0600 Subject: Re: Wayne Morrow, Rollins, Clem, Presuming we are talking about the orchid, it's in the sphagnum moss I bought it in. The ones remaining at Wal-Mart are 60F at night, wet and shaded. After the decline, info on the net says to keep it dry after blooming. I'm doing that, but the decline continues. The Nepenthes are doing very well. Thanks, Wayne >Wayne not knowing your other factors I would look into too acedic soil ~ >get an orchid mulch or put some ground lava in the soil. >Cousin Clem > > ################### From: mindmaze@msn.com Sat Feb 2 18:11:13 2002 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:10:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Nep watering question and OH THE HORROR (squirrels!!!!) It's in the Deluxe soil mixture that's in the Savage Garden, basically equal parts peat, Long Fibered sphagnum, orchid bark, perlite, charcoal, lava rock, and vermiculite; it has been in that mix for about six months now. The plant doesn't seem to be doing badly at all, it's pitchering like crazy. I wouldn't hesitate to say that of my 7 plants it's the one that is growing the best. I'm not TOO concerned at the moment, but little things like this are sometimes indicative of a bigger problem. Could it be that the mix is starting to degrade? Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: MCATALANI@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 9:21 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Subject: Re: Nep watering question and OH THE HORROR (squirrels!!!!) In a message dated 2/1/2002 10:04:53 PM Central Standard Time, mindmaze@msn.com writes: > I'm sure that It's not the temperature, since it never gets below 70 > F over here (Caribbean) . I grow mine outside, where they get > direct AM sun (through shade cloth) for 3-4 hours and shade the rest > of the day. Humidity fluctuates between 60 and 100% with the > highest occurring at night. I forgot to mention that some of the > tendrils (I think 3) of the plant dried up. Would that, with a few > yellowing leaves, be a symptom of overwatering (I really have no > idea)? This is only happening with my largest plant, all my other > ones seem fine. I'm watering them right now with a small sprinkler > system I made with things from home depot, but I'll water by hand > for the next few weeks to see if things improve. Thanks > > What do other people think? > What kind of soil is the plant in Joel? Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: alexnetherton@worldnet.att.net Sat Feb 2 18:56:38 2002 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:56:29 -0500 Subject: New (sort of) member Hello folks; My name is Alex, and I am a Naturalist, located in the central Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina (Asheville, NC), and have been interested in carnivorous plants since a very small child, and got a VFT for a present. Sadly, it did not survive, as I knew nothing about the care of the things. (I now have one growing in a small 5 gallon or so pot/bog, and it has made it through 3 seasons here.) I became very interested in them in the 1970's, first when on a field trip with a Plant Ecology class, and saw Sarracenia purpurea ssp. venosa in a bog in the southern part of the mountains (about 1 hour from here), and later when I was the grounds manager for a local Nature Center, and was shown S. rubra ssp. jonesii in cultivation. (It was years later I first saw them in the wild.) Note* I have always felt that the mountain form of S. purp. venosa was different from the more coastal purps. Haven't seen any in years, and do not know if the bog where they were even exists any longer. I am interested in almost everything in the Natural World, but CP's will always be a passion of mine. I now keep two small 5 gallon bog gardens with Sarracenia, Dionea and Drosera. All plants are captive, and I buy them. Wish I could rescue some of the bogs around here from golf courses..... Thanks! Thanks. Alex Netherton The Appalachian Naturalist http://appalachian-naturalist.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.317 / Virus Database: 176 - Release Date: 1/21/2002 [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: panetti@execpc.com Sun Feb 3 06:47:56 2002 Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:44:31 -0600 Subject: Re: Looking for Drosera regia! Hi there- I've got a D. Regia that is tradeable . I'm mostly interested in mex. pings, and neps but there are always exceptions! The Regia is approx. 4 inches tall in it's winter reduced size and should easily explode into growth this spring- I'm guessing late march with increased photoperiod. I would only want to ship it potted so as to not disturb it and set it back. I'm eager to send this to a good home- but only as a trade for something I'd really like- so please understand if I turn out to not be interested. Reply when you can. Dan Panetti S.E. Wisconsin Cpbog@aol.com wrote: >I've kinda ignored this species so far in my CP "career", >considering I didn't have much space to grow the plant. However, >I'd like to give it a shot now. If anyone has any (small or large >plants) for sale, please send me an e-mail! I have many plants for >trade or I'll buy if the price is reasonable! > >Thanks! > >Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog > >[HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] > > ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Sun Feb 3 16:53:36 2002 Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 18:53:34 -0600 Subject: Squirrels (little vermins) !!!! Somebody posted about Brunswick stew on Orchid Digest Guide last year, I believe. Apparently orchid people have problems with those little vermins. I replied to the message that I read in Columbus Dispatch some time ago (1998?) that incidents of Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease in Ky. were somewhat linked to squirrel comsumption, particularly eating their cranial matter. It kinda makes sense since cannibalism (eating brain of the dead) in New Guinea is responsible for occurrence of prion disease in the region. Remember the causal agent of this and Mad Cow disease (prions) is highly resistant to heat, acid, UV, etc. So cooking probably won't destroy the pathogen. Curious things about this disease are very slow progression in symptoms and potential heretibility. The link between Mad Cow disease and Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease may not have been "proven," but I would very cautious since you can potentially pass this on to your children. Now we know how evil they are! Sorry, this post has nothing to do with CP (again). Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: alexnetherton@worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 3 16:58:22 2002 Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:58:10 -0500 Subject: Trying to find Hi folks; I got an e-mail from a fellow named Sheridan talking about Sarracenia jonesii restoration in my neck of the woods. When I tried to reply, I got an error message saying Database disk quota exceeded. I would really like to contact this person and get involved. Alex Netherton The Appalachian Naturalist http://appalachian-naturalist.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.317 / Virus Database: 176 - Release Date: 1/21/2002 [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Sun Feb 3 17:12:27 2002 Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 19:12:34 -0600 Subject: Re: Squirrels (little vermins) !!!! Hideka, Damn! And I love to hunt them critters. I'll never be able to look at another one the same again. Of course I've never been one for savoring brains. Tried them with scrambled eggs once. Once. Not my thing. Down south, they can have the head floating in the kettle of stew lookin back at you if they want. Not for me. You haven't heard of any problems with mountain oysters, have you? :) Tom > (1998?) that incidents of Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease in Ky. were somewhat > linked to squirrel comsumption, particularly eating their cranial matter. It > kinda makes sense since cannibalism (eating brain of the dead) in New Guinea > is responsible for occurrence of prion disease in the region. ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Sun Feb 3 18:30:06 2002 Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:06:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Squirrels (little vermins) !!!! Not content to begin another round of squirrel wars, you must cause regionalism to rear it's ugly head? :) Wayne > Down south, >they can have the head floating in the kettle of stew lookin back at you if >they want. ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Sun Feb 3 20:38:47 2002 Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:38:29 EST Subject: D. regia Oops! I accidentally e-mailed the listserv in the last message when it was supposed to have been a direct e-mail! Sorry about that. Just ignore it. Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Sun Feb 3 20:47:45 2002 Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:47:43 -0600 Subject: Those little vermins Tom, Is there much to eat to begin with? I know some Japanese consider brain of a certain bird (Tsugumi) as delicacy, but I have never tried myself. Somebody called squirrels as "tree bacon" on the orchid listserv I belong to. Don't get me started how Japanese used to culture oysters. Hope nobody is eating right now except me. It may be interesting to do some survey on squirrel "comsumption" and occurrence of prion diseases (Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease, Mad Cow disease etc). I also remember the person discovered the causal agent speculated prion may play a role in Perkinson's disease. Again, I believe this is a conspiracy set up by those little vermins. Even if they don't have prion disease, I am not tempted to "have" local ones that devour dumpster. Anyway, this post does not have anything to do with CP again. I guess I need to work on genetic engineering of squirrel eating CP. Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Mon Feb 4 02:29:41 2002 Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:29:38 +1100 Subject: Orchidioides and Iperua Greetings I'm looking for some help with cultivation of U. asplundii, U. quelchii, U. endresii, and U. humboldtii The latter is growing quite well in my conditions. Should I try to create a period of dormancy over the summer(although it is getting late) for these (Orchidioides) species? U. quelchii has lost it's leaves but the others look OK. U. endresii has just started growing leaves. If dormancy is needed, how long should this be? Does U. humboldtii need to be dried out at all to induce flowering? I now have U. reniformis growing like mad inside the leaf axials of a Bromeliad. It was initially from a leaf cutting but has made it's way around the plant into new leaves. I think it is amazing how it can penetrate from one to another water tight container without the vertical advantagous stolons. Thanks in advance Greg MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: sfdzeqe0@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us Mon Feb 4 04:22:58 2002 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:22:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wayne, It a reality if you develope the gift of talking to your cat trought ESP and telling it's your cat's job to protect your plants from the squirrels. Cousin Clem ################### From: Susan.Farrington@mobot.org Mon Feb 4 06:25:57 2002 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:31:33 -0600 Subject: RE: CP's for zone 5 bog garden? Wayne, I would NOT grow Darlingtonia sitting in your water garden... the water would probably still be pretty warm in the summer, and Darlingtonia doesn't do well sitting with its roots in warm water. My best success with that plant has been to sit the pot inside a white styrofoam box (cutting a hole in the lid to slide the pot down into). This keeps the root zone cool, while the above ground parts can get normal air temperature and circulation. (I've also kept them shaded in the afternoon.) The water will occassionally build up in the box to where the plant is sitting in it, but only briefly, and the water is quite cool. The Sarracenia psittacina, however, seems to love sitting in water all summer... I've grown 4" and 6" pots of it in the water, with the water level right up to the soil level (so that you can't even see the pot) in the full sun. This is in a small pond, with a depth of about 18". It might not work so well if it was just a shallow tray of water, since it would be considerably warmer water. Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 (314) 577-9402 >Susan, Could you elaborate on that? I've wondered if I could keep Darlingtonia cool in my water garden. (and my psittacina is MIA!) Wayne 1/29/02 6:49:51 AM, Susan Farrington wrote: >S. psittacina. >I have had the best luck growing it in >a pot sitting IN my little pond [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Mon Feb 4 09:29:19 2002 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:29:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: S. purpurea in the mountains Hey Alex, I saw your posting on the listserve, where you mentioned the S. purpurea plants in the mountains, and how you say you always thought they were "different" from the coastal plants. You may be pleased to learn that you are not the only one. This plant has been described as a unique taxon, "Sarracenia purpurea var. montana". Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: dpevans@rci.rutgers.edu Mon Feb 4 14:40:41 2002 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:36:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Squirrels (not so little vermin) !!!! Dear Hideka, I recall reading the same warnings about prion disease in the local paper. Seems the CDC believes there may be a connection eating squirrel brains scrambled w/ egg (?) and a form of Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease. I think I'll stick with eggs, bacon and grits for breakfast, thank-you. ;) The stew sounds so much more reasonable. Dave Evans ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:59 PM > > Somebody posted about Brunswick stew on Orchid Digest Guide last year, I > believe. Apparently orchid people have problems with those little vermin. > I replied to the message that I read in Columbus Dispatch some time ago > (1998?) that incidents of Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease in Ky. were somewhat > linked to squirrel consumption, particularly eating their cranial matter. It > kinda makes sense since cannibalism (eating brain of the dead) in New Guinea > is responsible for occurrence of prion disease in the region. > > Remember the causal agent of this and Mad Cow disease (prions) is highly > resistant to heat, acid, UV, etc. So cooking probably won't destroy the > pathogen. Curious things about this disease are very slow progression in > symptoms and potential heretibility. The link between Mad Cow disease and > Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease may not have been "proven," but I would very > cautious since you can potentially pass this on to your children. Now we > know how evil they are! Sorry, this post has nothing to do with CP (again). > > point out that the ORIGINAL Brunswick stew, made in Virginia by a > colonial hunting party, included squirrel as one of the meats. I think > this is an excellent use of this small rodent in the culinary arts.> > > > > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Mon Feb 4 18:15:34 2002 Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 20:52:56 -0600 Subject: Re: RE: CP's for zone 5 bog garden? Thanks, Susan Forgive me a cross post, but has anyone grown Phragmipediums in a bog garden? > >I would NOT grow Darlingtonia sitting in your water garden... ################### From: venusflytrap@bushinternet.com Mon Feb 4 19:18:07 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 03:10:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mad cow disease and squirrels Well, thats solved the riddle where cows have been getting BSE from. They have obviously been secretly eating squirrels. Them cows are obviously pretty useful, as Sarracenia guardians and squirrel eaters, it`s no wonder India treats them as sacred. Get yourself a cow, it will solve all your CP problems. Regards David Ahrens London PS- I suppose I should have really put one of those "grin" things at the end of what I have written. ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Mon Feb 4 19:46:16 2002 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:45:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Mad squirrel disease You all better stop talking about the darn squirrels or I am going to get going again. These damn dregs to society did me great financial harm and wiped out a lot of my plant stock last year. I now have a squirrel skull (still with dead S. leucophylla & N. sanguniea caught between its teeth) on a post at the entrance of my property giving fair warning to the rodents from the dark abyss to stay clear. I know their game, I know how to outwit them, and I know how to make them pay. For the most they are staying away too,..so far!! If you need more go to http://www.deadsquirrel.com/ I am a confessed squirrel hater, and the mere word can make me go insane ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 10:19 PM > > Well, thats solved the riddle where cows have been getting BSE from. They have obviously been secretly eating squirrels. Them cows are obviously pretty useful, as Sarracenia guardians and squirrel eaters, it`s no wonder India treats them as sacred. Get yourself a cow, it will solve all your CP problems. > Regards > David Ahrens > London > PS- I suppose I should have really put one of those "grin" things at the end of what I have written. ################### From: sileshar@yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 20:06:42 2002 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:06:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: other rodents Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: sileshar@yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 20:28:13 2002 Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:28:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: other rodents redux Dear list, Sorry about the misfire. I brought in my 'Florida Giant' Drosera filiformis filiformis just a few days too late. I'd kept it in dormancy in the unheated garage, saw it's huge whitish hibernacula last time I watered it, but it's now been gnawed away by field mice. :# Last year they'd excavated my N.J. Pine Barrens D. "fil. fils.", and for some reason I didn't give up on them. They came up, but whether from roots or deeply buried remains I don't know. I was too depressed to dump the pot and examine the soil. I'm hoping the same thing happens this year. I'd ordered really late in the season from Peter's California Carnivores. I'll cover it and give it some sun and hopefully the roots are strong enough to sprout. Needless to say the mousetraps are now fully deployed. Grow well, Hans Bucks County Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: tnert_80_ca@yahoo.ca Mon Feb 4 21:41:45 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 00:40:34 -0500 Subject: Re: S. purpurea in the mountains Barry, > I saw your posting on the listserve, where you mentioned the S. purpurea > plants in the mountains... This plant has been described as a unique taxon, > "Sarracenia purpurea var. montana". Obviously this is not a very common varriety, as I dont ever recall comming across it in my netsurfing. Are you aware of anyone who has it in cultivation? Do you have any idea up to (or down to, considering arctic is zone 1!) what zone it is hardy? Trent ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Mon Feb 4 22:11:24 2002 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 00:11:22 -0600 Subject: Mad tree rats I found this webpage. I guess I remembered this well enough. http://www.mad-cow.org/~tom/bull_sem.html >From the web page: Now, some people might want to think twice about eating squirrel brains, a backwoods Southern delicacy. Two Kentucky doctors last month reported a possible link between eating squirrel brains and the rare and deadly human variety of mad-cow disease, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Dr. Eric Weisman, a behavioral neurologist who practices in rural western Kentucky, reported in the distinguished British medical journal The Lancet that he has treated 11 people for CJD in four years, and all had eaten squirrel brains at some time. Six of the victims, ranging in age from 56 to 78, have died. But this is still better than New Guinean human cranial stew........ I'd rather choose Madagascal carnivorous tree juice. For other animals (lemur, mink, cat, muledeer, etc), check: http://cloud.prohosting.com/lzambeni/prions/prions.html Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: meadowview@pitcherplant.org Tue Feb 5 07:47:06 2002 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 10:43:10 -0800 Subject: Re: confessions of a squirrel eater Hi Mike: Glad to see your comments and I feel heartened that there is a web site devoted to the demise of squirels. I must tell you that I was able to participate in a squirrel hunt several years ago with some Hmong from Vietnam and tremendously enjoyed a gourmet meal of COOKED SQURREL (no squirrel brains in that dish). These little vermin (= varmint) caused tremendous damage and personal hardship as a youth raising these plants. I escaped their predations for many years in the country until my new neighbor turned out to be a SQUIRREL REHABILITATOR. Well, guess what happened this spring? Hundreds of dollars of damage to our Cephalotus production. Fortunately the problem was quickly solved by camouflaged Havahart traps (they like covered areas with small opennings) and the threat of more violence to the imported squirrel population (related in a conversation with our neighbor). Result? No more squirrel problem. Best, Phil ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:45:07 -0500 > From: "{USER_FIRSTNAME} {USER_LASTNAME}" > To: > Subject: Re: Mad squirrel disease > Message-ID: <001801c1adf7$89efb540$3250bfa8@hppav> > > You all better stop talking about the darn squirrels or I am going to get > going again. > These damn dregs to society did me great financial harm and wiped out a lot > of my plant stock last year. > I now have a squirrel skull (still with dead S. leucophylla & N. sanguniea > caught between its teeth) > on a post at the entrance of my property giving fair warning to the rodents > from the dark abyss to stay clear. I know their game, I know how to outwit > them, and I know how to make them pay. For the most they are staying away > too,..so far!! > If you need more go to > > http://www.deadsquirrel.com/ > > I am a confessed squirrel hater, and the mere word can make me go insane > > ~ Mike > St. Petersburg Florida > ################### From: michaelpagoulatos@yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 07:50:35 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:50:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Squirrels Mike, The best way to get rid of these vermin is to use a 'HaveAheart' trap to catch them alive. Then, if you're so inclined, you can drive them a few miles away and release them. Or, if they've destroyed plants, just catch the little bastards, tie a rope to the trap and toss it in about 5 feet of water. Or, if you're looking for a brief brake from beef ;^) try these delicious (had them all) squirrel recipes http://www.justgamerecipes.com/squirrel/index.shtml . Angelina National Forest is a favorite stomping ground of mine; you can view gorgeous CP bogs and collect all the squirrel skulls you want...LOL! Take care, Michael Pagoulatos ---------------------- "You all better stop talking about the darn squirrels or I am going to get going again. These damn dregs to society did me great financial harm and wiped out a lot of my plant stock last year. I now have a squirrel skull (still with dead S. leucophylla & N. sanguniea caught between its teeth) on a post at the entrance of my property giving fair warning to the rodents from the dark abyss to stay clear. I know their game, I know how to outwit them, and I know how to make them pay. For the most they are staying away too,..so far!! If you need more go to http://www.deadsquirrel.com/ I am a confessed squirrel hater, and the mere word can make me go insane ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida" Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: moper@libero.it Tue Feb 5 08:02:52 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:02:38 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?D.zigzagia_habitat?= Hi all, does anyone have any info about D.zigzagia? (soil type, photos, tuber color/size, flowering time, etc) I'd like to learn more of this nice plant. Thanks in advance Cristiano -Italy- website http://digilander.iol.it/westaustralia/ ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Tue Feb 5 08:51:32 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:51:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Squirrels On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Mike wrote: > > I am a confessed squirrel hater, and the mere word can make me go insane Well, they do have some good points: http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~yaz/en/squirrel_fishing.html/ ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Tue Feb 5 12:40:38 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:48:20 -0500 Subject: Species descriptions Hello, Could someone help me understand the Botanical description process, and how one should be done correctly? My language skills are extreemly limited, especially in Latin, and I don't understand the current rules in condensing a Latin diagnosis for a description, to be correctly applied to a given specimen. After looking at a variety of botanical resources, I have noticed a tendency of omitting the latin diagnosis of the described species, in Jebb and Cheek's 1997 skeletal revison of Nepenthes and Peter Taylor's 1989 The Genus Utricularia. In Danser's Monograph, he changes much of the translation of this diagnosis in ie. _Nepenthes bicalcarata_ spinas 2, in Latin, vs. 2 thorns, in English. Jan Schlauer is an exception to the Latin ommission in the recently described _Drosera hartmeyerorum_ in the Dec. 2001. Even I can determine, the Latin part of this description is very reduced, when compared to the English body of text. I probably will not understand any explantion, but I will post anything to get off of the current topic of disscussion. If I get no answer to this quiery, I am going to psychically have Cousin Clem's cat attack Tom, Hideka and all, and then we can all continue to comment about the outcome! Take care, Steven Stewart ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Tue Feb 5 14:50:23 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:50:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nick Romanowski's new book Hey Folks, Sorry I haven't mentioned this book before, but the listserve discussion about it has been quite adequate. There will be a review of this book in an upcoming CPN. The short review is that if you like collecting CP books, you should get this. It is an attractive, factually-accurate book. Now, there's not really too much to growing Sarracenia, so if you've got D'Amato's book you won't find much new re: horticulture. But Romanowski has some interesting things to mention. Unfortunately, Romanowski is completely wrong in his treatment of cultivars, and coins literally dozens of mysterious, undocumented cultivar names that will haunt us for decades. Alas. Look to the CPN article for the longer, generally positive review. Cheers Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Tue Feb 5 16:28:06 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:27:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Squirrels Sean, LOL...very nice. ~ Mike ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 11:58 AM > > On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Mike wrote: > > > > I am a confessed squirrel hater, and the mere word can make me go insane > > > Well, they do have some good points: > > http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~yaz/en/squirrel_fishing.html/ > ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Tue Feb 5 16:33:10 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:32:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Nick Romanowski's new book I am thinking of naming my very nice clone of Heliamphora nutans as a cultivar "Hunts Green Weenie". ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > Unfortunately, Romanowski is completely wrong in his treatment of > cultivars, and coins literally dozens of mysterious, undocumented cultivar > names that will haunt us for decades. Alas. > > Look to the CPN article for the longer, generally positive review. > > Cheers > > Barry > > ------------------------ > Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. > Carnivorous Plant Newsletter > Conservation Coeditor > barry@carnivorousplants.org > http://www.carnivorousplants.org > ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Tue Feb 5 18:43:05 2002 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:21:00 -0600 Subject: Re: confessions of a squirrel eater > the threat of more violence to >the imported squirrel population (related in a conversation with our >neighbor). Result? No more squirrel problem. > Don't start this again. You are cool and big and tough. Gosh. -Wayne ################### From: sileshar@yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 19:58:07 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:58:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3" Pot Pleasant Surprises Dearly listed, Thanks to tissue culture, those little 3" pots of cp can no longer be ignored. Sure, 9 times out of ten they're just typical flytraps, but I've had some pleasant surprises, and it sounds like others on the list have too. * Butterworts - used to be only P. primuliflora and moranensis, but now a lot of Mexican hybrids seem to be showing up. (Which is good, since they're harder for the store to kill) I thought I picked up a moranensesis about 4 years ago, but now I'm pretty sure it's a Pinguicula * Weser. * Sundews - used to be D. rotundifolias and capensis, now mostly adelae and capillaris. * Venus' Fly Traps - Just not to leave empty-handed I picked out the most well-grown one I saw at a garden center last summer and found out later it was a shark's-tooth/dente or whatever. I'll pin it down this year. * Purple Pitcher Plants - As bad as they look it's surprising what a variety of types are in circulation. Most have nice venation in the hood (I've seen sold as 'Blood Vesseel' when larger for a more than regular price) and one I have is a "MacIntosh apple red" and charmingly bulbous (if that's possible) as Kevin said. Well, my point is that more and more out of the ordinary is beginning to show up. I picked up one labelled "Purple Pitcher Plant" recently that is obviously one of the new upright cultivars such as 'Dixie Lace'. I'll be comparing this summer. Now, if only someone would try D. burmannii, slackii, and, filling the pots, and catching the customer's eye: indica and regia? Oh well, cabin fever has set in. Grow well, Hans Bucks County, Pennslyvania U.S. of A. Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Tue Feb 5 20:31:37 2002 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:09:36 -0600 Subject: Re: 3" Pot Pleasant Surprises Hans, What about the $4.00 Nepenthes? :) Wayne > Thanks to tissue culture, those little 3" pots of cp can no longer be >ignored. Sure, 9 times out of ten they're just typical flytraps, but I've >had some pleasant surprises, and it sounds like others on the list have >too. ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Tue Feb 5 21:00:37 2002 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:00:32 -0600 Subject: Re: pleasant surprises > Thanks to tissue culture, those little 3" pots of cp can no longer be > ignored. Sure, 9 times out of ten they're just typical flytraps, but I've > had some pleasant surprises, and it sounds like others on the list have > too. I found a dente checking out the hardware store as well... As well as a slew of unknown sarracenia hybrids... I thought I had determined some of them were cultivars, but apparently not... -- jblakeh1@mac.com http://www.jblakeharris.info/ http://www.SIT3.com/jblakeh1/ ################### From: sileshar@yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 21:25:18 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:25:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: 3" Pot Pleasant Surprises Dear Wayne, True enought, you can get nice Nepenthes too, I suppose. But I don't like how badly identified they are. I always assumed they still N. mada- gascariensis but now they seem to be complex hybrids. And still called "Madagascaran Nepenthes" of all things. Only two species endemic to there as I recall, and neither fits the bill. Anyway, I'll leave them to you nep-heads. Though I must say I had a couple growing under lights with nice red pitchers. I wonder if they're the alata reds I see in hanging baskets for $30? But anytime you see Vf with red traps they're probably all-red variety languishing in the dark. What I want is more upright sundews and pitcher plants. And I think they've got to sell better too. Grow well, Hans Doylestown, PA Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: r.jobson@botany.uq.edu.au Tue Feb 5 22:08:45 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:08:18 +1000 Subject: squirel haters Hi There, Those sadistic Squirrel haters may get some enjoyment from these University of Alabama sites: ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Tue Feb 5 22:49:46 2002 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:49:44 -0800 Subject: Re: 3" Pot Pleasant Surprises Good thread.... So buying the proverbial "3 inch pot" has been my only means of "field collecting". Whenever I travel, I keep my eyes open for CPs (in stores). It seems like the selection is improving. While traveling in Northern Italy (Milan) I "field collected" a Sarracenia purpurea, Pinguicula weser, and Sarracenia 'Stevensii'. This was all at the mega-Ikea in Milan. Care instructions were actually not that bad: " CARE: This bogplant prefers much light. Place the pot in a saucer with much water. Keep cool but damp in winter." Much good! The next day at the "Il Gigante" supermarket, another crop of CPs showed up - VFTs, purpurea, and some drosera were sprouting up all over. Who could pass up such a deal at 3 Euros a pop? chuckr PS: I seem to remember someone mentioning there was to be an "open house" at the UC Davis greenhouse....does anyone have the details on that? ################### From: hermann@wistuba.com Tue Feb 5 23:08:44 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:08:41 +0100 Subject: AW: squirel haters This year please _no_ squirrels. Dr. Hermann Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227 68259 Mannheim GERMANY hermann@wistuba.com -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com]Im Auftrag von r.jobson@botany.uq.edu.au Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. Februar 2002 07:13 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: squirel haters Hi There, Those sadistic Squirrel haters may get some enjoyment from these University of Alabama sites: ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Wed Feb 6 01:51:46 2002 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:52:01 +0100 Subject: Re: Species descriptions Dear Steven, > Could someone help me understand the Botanical description process, and how > one should be done correctly? First of all, it is important to identify what you have and what you want to describe. Principally there are two possibilities: 1. A naturally occurring plant or a plant that is involved in speciation or more generally in the natural process of formation of new, distinct groups of plants. These biologically relevant groups are called taxa. 2. A plant of interest to horticulture by virtue of some desirable (for humans) traits different in some respect from the traits of more usual plants. Such horticulturally relevant plants are suitable for selection as cultivars. These two different perspectives serve two fundamentally different purposes, and the formation of names for the different kinds of plants is governed by two different sets of rules, viz. the International Code for Botanical Nomenclature (ICBN) for biological plant taxa and the International Code for the Nomenclature of Cultivated Plants (ICNCP) for cultivars. >From your statements I conclude that you are talking about ICBN-taxa ("species"), not cultivars. The ICBN requires i.a. the following criteria to be met in order to form a valid name: The name of the new taxon must receive a Latin name. This name must meet a number of criteria detailed in the ICBN (e.g. it must not be identical or highly similar to a previously published name, it must be appropriate for the rank of the new taxon, etc.). The new taxon must be described with a Latin diagnosis or description (only one of the two is required but the original description or "protologue" may contain both). A diagnosis is a comparison with another (supposedly most closely related) taxon that already has a valid name. This comparison must obviously highlight the differences between the two taxa. A description is an enumeration of features that characterizes the new taxon (to the best of the author's knowledge). The name of a new species (or any taxon below the rank of species) must be based on a permanently conserved type specimen. Usually, this is a herbarium specimen. Names of taxa at ranks above species are typified by included taxa of lower rank that received a valid name. Both description and type citation must be published in a botanical journal or a comparable publication (incl. books) accessible to botanists. > My language skills are extreemly limited, > especially in Latin, and I don't understand the current rules in condensing > a Latin diagnosis for a description, to be correctly applied to a given > specimen. The absolute amount of Latin text to be used in a protologue is not specified in the ICBN. It should be sufficient to characterize the new taxon. If you can describe the new taxon in English, there will be possibilities to translate the description. Latin is not the problem. Most journals or botanical institutions will provide help if required. Just be sure the taxon is reasonably distinguishable (minimum overlap with previously described taxa) and the distinguishing features are reasonably constant (minimum variability). No absolute limits can be given, and the definition and delimitation of taxa (i.e. a science called taxonomy) is always a matter of personal opinion to some degree. Be sure you designate a suitable type specimen that shows the distinguishing features mentioned in the protologue. > After looking at a variety of botanical resources, I have noticed a tendency > of omitting the latin diagnosis of the described species, in Jebb and > Cheek's 1997 skeletal revison of Nepenthes and Peter Taylor's 1989 The Genus > Utricularia. Even if the Latin description may be very reduced, it is not omitted entirely (which would violate ICBN rules so the names would be invalid). > In Danser's Monograph, he changes much of the translation of > this diagnosis in ie. _Nepenthes bicalcarata_ spinas 2, in Latin, vs. 2 > thorns, in English. Some (slight) shifts in the meaning may be the result of translation. The only text of relevance for the validity of a name is the Latin one in the protologue. > Jan Schlauer is an exception to the Latin ommission in the recently > described _Drosera hartmeyerorum_ in the Dec. 2001. Even I can determine, > the Latin part of this description is very reduced, when compared to the > English body of text. That is true. I have chosen a diagnosis for the Latin protologue (contrasting _D. hartmeyerorum_ with _D. indica_, which is in my opinion the most closely related taxon) and a more detailed description in English. In the present case I think this serves the different purposes (validation of a name vs. identification of specimens) best. > I probably will not understand any explanation, Please ask if you have questions. This discussion list is probably the most appropriate place to do so. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Sunpitcher@aol.com Wed Feb 6 06:07:07 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:06:59 EST Subject: S purpurea montana Trent, I am growing a purp montana. One of the most beautiful plants in my Sarracenia collection. The colors and veins are striking! The first year I had it I was concerned about its survival growing in the low country heat 2 miles from the ocean but it grows happily setting in 3 to 5 inches of water. It died back to almost a bud that first year but now keeps pitchers year round. It is a water tray mate with the only Darlingtonia that I have had to survive the heat here. Angie Hall (sorry, I only have one :) [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Darren_bedwel@iquest.net Wed Feb 6 07:12:40 2002 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:13:13 -0500 Subject: Re: 3" Pot Pleasant Surprises Just in the last couple of weeks, shopping the 3" carnivorous plant pots at $3.00 each, I have found a sarracenia labelled "Red Pitcher Plant" (which could be a rubra -- or not -- it is quite pretty anyway) and three nepenthes which might be ventricosa (the tiny pitchers are reddish and have sort of underdeveloped wings on them). One of the neps was halfway mummified but I took pity on it, and when it got into my 'nepenthes intensive care unit' it came right back to life. I bought a couple of nepenthes in 3" pots last year that (a) are still alive and (b) now strongly resemble n. x judith finns. The good thing about buying one of those plants in the 3" pots: if it is alive when you find it in the store, you can bet it's a tough plant to kill. The exception for me was drosera adelae, which are obviously allergic to me and die just from me looking at them. ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Wed Feb 6 07:22:49 2002 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:01:02 -0600 Subject: Re: 3" Pot Pleasant Surprises >when it got into my 'nepenthes >intensive care unit' it came right back to life. > > The exception for me was drosera adelae, which are obviously >allergic to me and die just from me looking at them. Describe your Nep ICU for is. Adelae has that same allergy to me, BTW. Thanks, Wayne ################### From: Darren_bedwel@iquest.net Wed Feb 6 07:48:40 2002 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:49:13 -0500 Subject: Re: 3" Pot Pleasant Surprises It's a 10 gallon aquarium with a plain sheet of acrylic for a lid. The plants sit on a piece of 'eggcrate' grid which in turn sits on four upended clay pots (3" in height). Underneath the grid, the tank holds about 2.5" of water with a submersible aquarium heater set to 86 F or so. I have a small air pump and air stone in the water to keep it moving around the heater, and also to keep the humidity in the tank at 100% all the time. Atop the acrylic lid, I have two 18" florescent strip lights on a timer. Cuttings root beautifully in this chamber but it takes some care to harden the plants up when I want to take them out. I have not had any problems with the submersible heater. The water level doesn't drop very quickly because all the condensation stays in the tank. Two 18" striplights don't really provide enough light but the tank is next to a window, which helps. I have not had any problems with fungus. I think any spores just basically get washed down into the bottom of the tank where the ph is probably pretty low, since the plant pots mostly have peat in them. At 07:27 AM 2/6/02 -0800, you wrote: > >when it got into my 'nepenthes > >intensive care unit' it came right back to life. > > > > The exception for me was drosera adelae, which are obviously > >allergic to me and die just from me looking at them. > >Describe your Nep ICU for is. >Adelae has that same allergy to me, BTW. >Thanks, >Wayne ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 08:21:58 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:21:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Why the squirrel hating? Hello listserv, Okay, I have been very busy with work lately and other things, and this is the first time I have seriously been able to sit down and sift through my email. My curiosity has been peaked - why have there been so many emails firing around about killing squirrels? I agree, I hate the little bastards and would like to see more of them find themselves in the path of a truck, but, on a carnivorous plant listserv - why have we been firing these emails around? Understand I'm not disagreeing, just trying to catch up with the happenings as they currently are.... Thanks! ~Ben Ben Rush kwendex@yahoo.com "First know what you don't know. The rest is natural" --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Wed Feb 6 08:23:40 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:22:52 -0700 Subject: Strange plant/fungus (?) growing with my CPs I vaguely recall some discussion a year or so ago regarding a creeping type of plant or fungus that spreads across the soil surface. I don't know how to describe what I've got except to say the leaves, which are bright green and anywhere from a couple mm to a cm long, look kind of like a staghorn fern - long and narrow with lots of branches. They're mostly pressed close to the ground and when I pour water on the top of it I can see a green film on the water, so I assume it spreads by spores. It's actually kind of attractive but I think it's been slowly smothering my U. calycifida. For now I've picked it fairly clean from the area immediately surrounding the Utric leaves, but I'm wondering what it is and if I should do anything more drastic about it? Also, I have some D. capillaris seedlings I got this winter with something similar growing among them but it's dark green and roundish, about a half cm across, with slightly ruffled edges. Is this something that could easily get out of control and should be removed? (Due of a bad case of cabin fever and a month-long break from school - thanks to the Olympics - I've suddenly got time to look very closely at my plants!) Thanks in advance for any help that can be offered. John "trying to ward off more squirrel talk" Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Wed Feb 6 08:35:38 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:34:48 -0700 Subject: How to root Nep cuttings? Here's some more fodder for non-squirrel-related discussion: I've been trying to root some cuttings of N. gracilis for several months now. From what I've read they root easily in water - except mine didn't. They didn't do anything but eventually die. I've also got some cuttings in some peat/sand soil that I dipped in rooting powder, but I'm not seeing any growth on them either. N. gracilis is supposed to be one of the easiest to grow, but I'm not having any luck with it. The cuttings have stayed green for an awfully long time, though. What am I doing wrong? John "ready for spring" Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Wed Feb 6 08:55:31 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:55:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: S. purpurea var. montana Hi Trent, This is, by reports, a surprisingly difficult plant to grow. The ICPS is planning on working with a conservation group in Georgia involved in working with S. purpurea subsp. venosa var. monatana bogs. I have some photos of the plant in the wild on my web site, look at http://www.sarracenia.com/galleria/helpdesk.html for the precise url. As to the zone they live in, I'm not sure. I don't speak zones. Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org > > I saw your posting on the listserve, where you mentioned the S. purpurea > > plants in the mountains... This plant has been described as a unique > taxon, > > "Sarracenia purpurea var. montana". > > Obviously this is not a very common varriety, as I dont ever recall comming > across it in my netsurfing. Are you aware of anyone who has it in > cultivation? Do you have any idea up to (or down to, considering arctic is > zone 1!) what zone it is hardy? > > Trent ################### From: cteichreb@hotmail.com Wed Feb 6 09:05:52 2002 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:05:50 -0800 Subject: Re: Squirrels and fishing Hi everyone, Ok, my two cents on this issue having suffered from years of squirrel attacks on my bog (which is minor compared to when the racoons get in there). The most efficient way to get rid of them, in my opinion, is by trapping them using rat traps. Using live traps works, but really just ends up making your squirrels someone elses problem or the problem of other native squirrels at the very least. Here in Vancouver, we're overrun by introduced black squirrels which are much bigger and more aggressive than the native brown squirrel. I don't see the point of introducing them to an undisturbed area since that's how the problem started! If you can't stomach the thought of killing the squirrels, then you'll usually have to put up with them. Repellents, mesh covers over the bog, etc. are only temporary fixes. As someone once said, the squirrel has the entire day to think of ways to get around these obstacles. One other thing to keep in mind is to check with city ordinances. I read somewhere (and I hope I'm not repeating something posted here in the last few days!) that squirrel are often considered game species and a permit must be acquired before you can remove them. In cities especially, you're unlikely to be allowed to shoot them. Finally, the fishing part. Another cp'er who's likely reading this right now uses the hair from the tails of the squirrels to tie flies for fishing. At least a good use if you're not going to eat them (not recommended for city squirrels). Happy growing...er...hunting, Chris P.S. I have nothing against wildlife, and if it's native wildlife destroying my plants, I'd learn to live with it. However, introduced species that have spread like wildfire can certainly withstand the culling. -- Chris Teichreb http://www.geocities.com/VCPC2000 (Vancouver Carnivorous Plant Club) ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Wed Feb 6 09:13:27 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:06:50 -0500 Subject: RE: How to root Nep cuttings? Hey John, You may not be doing anything wrong. I stick Nepenthes cuttings in straight perlight. We have a propagation bench that is bottom heated with overhead RO mist. Its about perfect for rooting plant cuttings. I very often have Nepenthes cuttings that take up to three months to root. If your cuttings are still green, leave them be. As long as they are green, resist the urge to pull them and look for roots. I never pull the cuttings unless they are starting to rot, or I see new growth. It can take a while. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of John Green Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 11:44 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Here's some more fodder for non-squirrel-related discussion: I've been trying to root some cuttings of N. gracilis for several months now. From what I've read they root easily in water - except mine didn't. They didn't do anything but eventually die. I've also got some cuttings in some peat/sand soil that I dipped in rooting powder, but I'm not seeing any growth on them either. N. gracilis is supposed to be one of the easiest to grow, but I'm not having any luck with it. The cuttings have stayed green for an awfully long time, though. What am I doing wrong? John "ready for spring" Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: hermann@wistuba.com Wed Feb 6 09:16:05 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:16:07 +0100 Subject: AW: Squirrels and fishing Please _NO_ squirrel diskussion this year in CP. Hermann ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 09:50:53 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:50:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: How to root Nep cuttings? John, Yes! This is of particular interest to me since i will be doing this eventually with my gracilis. Any information you find out exterior to this listserv please pass on to me - I would be most grateful! John Green wrote: Here's some more fodder for non-squirrel-related discussion: I've been trying to root some cuttings of N. gracilis for several months now. From what I've read they root easily in water - except mine didn't. They didn't do anything but eventually die. I've also got some cuttings in some peat/sand soil that I dipped in rooting powder, but I'm not seeing any growth on them either. N. gracilis is supposed to be one of the easiest to grow, but I'm not having any luck with it. The cuttings have stayed green for an awfully long time, though. What am I doing wrong? John "ready for spring" Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 Ben Rush kwendex@yahoo.com "First know what you don't know. The rest is natural" --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: mindmaze@msn.com Wed Feb 6 15:46:23 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:46:11 -0400 Subject: alternative to aquarium heaters I've been reading the posts on aquarium heaters, but I mostly ignored them since I grow my plants outside (I just LOVE tropical climates :]). I do think though that I have an alternative to them, that isn't quite as dangerous. It involves the use of something called a mist maker. I think that many of you may have seen them already. They're those funky little cylinder things that are often sold with fountains to make the cool fog effect. They increase the RH in the immediate area really quickly and turn off automatically when the water level gets to low (very safe to use). They don't mention this on the box, but If you leave it on long enough, the water that it's in can get really warm! In other words, The mist maker serves as a humidifier AND as a heater! I've heard people say that they break down easily, but I've had mine now for over 4 months and they still work. All you have to do is clean the ceramic disk and it'll keep on working. I bought two of them for 40 bucks each (OUCH!) but the price is now at $ 25 for the basic mist maker. Here's a site that sells them http://www.mainlandmart.com/foggers.html Replacing the aquarium heater with the mister is safer, and maybe even as efficient. Just a thought. Joel [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Wed Feb 6 16:10:07 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:10:01 -0800 Subject: CP article at SFGATE My "automated CP news watchers" snagged this article today: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/02/06/greeng.DTL&type=homeandgardengreen This is from the online version of the San Francisco Chronicle. The article starts: Northern California dominates again -- and we're not talking sports. This is all about plants. Carnivorous plants. Like other eccentrics of every stripe, the leaders of the carnivorous-plant world have made this part of the state their home. Up in the Wine Country, we've got Peter D'Amato, author of the carnivorous-plant grower's bible, "The Savage Garden," over in Davis dwells Barry Meyers-Rice, editor of The Carnivorous Plant Newsletter, and closer to home, in San Francisco, lives David O. Gray, president of the International Carnivorous Plant Society. Proof that all the "eccentrics" live in one place! And in print! chuckr http://chuckr.blogspot.com ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Wed Feb 6 16:58:57 2002 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 19:58:51 -0500 Subject: RE: Strange plant/fungus (?) growing with my CPs John-- It sounds like you have the dreaded liverwort. I would consider repotting every pot that has been invaded. In any other situation, this is a pretty little moss, but the small carnivorous plant collection at San Francisco State University was completely smothered in the stuff, eventually killing off otherwise hardy species like D. binata and D. capensis (!). It grows over the CP's growth points and prevents new growth from getting light. Once it establishes itself, it'll soon become the only green thing you'll see. Gary Kong "John Green" wrote: > >I vaguely recall some discussion a year or so ago regarding a creeping type >of plant or fungus that spreads across the soil surface. I don't know how >to describe what I've got except to say the leaves, which are bright green >and anywhere from a couple mm to a cm long, look kind of like a staghorn >fern - long and narrow with lots of branches. They're mostly pressed close >to the ground and when I pour water on the top of it I can see a green film >on the water, so I assume it spreads by spores. It's actually kind of >attractive but I think it's been slowly smothering my U. calycifida. For >now I've picked it fairly clean from the area immediately surrounding the >Utric leaves, but I'm wondering what it is and if I should do anything more >drastic about it? > >Also, I have some D. capillaris seedlings I got this winter with something >similar growing among them but it's dark green and roundish, about a half cm >across, with slightly ruffled edges. Is this something that could easily >get out of control and should be removed? (Due of a bad case of cabin fever >and a month-long break from school - thanks to the Olympics - I've suddenly >got time to look very closely at my plants!) Thanks in advance for any help >that can be offered. > >John "trying to ward off more squirrel talk" Green >Salt Lake City, Utah USA >http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 > > -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: alexnetherton@worldnet.att.net Wed Feb 6 20:19:11 2002 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:18:47 -0500 Subject: S. purp.venosa montana Someone asked about the montane plants of S. purpurea ssp venosa. I have seen them growing in bogs in Western North Carolina (USA). They have (I think) larger pitchers than the more coastal type of S. p.venosa, and do not turn the bright red color of the coastal venosa in winter, even though the winters are colder here. They are found in so few places now (I know of only 2 localities, and one might be gone) and I know of no one who has any of them in cultivation. The traps are BIG, much bigger, in my experience, than venosa venosa, and the venation is more pronounced, and a different shade of purple. The "hood", or "bonnet" is very wavy, like the S.v. forma venosa, and the furriness is much more pronounced on the outside of the pitcher, making them look almost cottony. As I said, they don't turn the bright bronzy red in winter, but may turn a sort of light greeny purple where the frost settles on them. Being a montane species, they are resilient to cold (it gets to -20 F., about -29 C here from time to time), and, since this areas bogs seem to be somewhat brushy, are quite possibly able to tolerate some shading; indeed, purp is said to need the shade of grasses and sedges later in the season. Since an Appalachian bog rarely sees fire, there is more brush, and I think the pitcher plants might be used to this; S. jonesii (S. rubra ssp. jonesii) grows rather large with some shading. The ones (venosa) I saw in a bog around here had quite a shade cover of Tag Alder (Alnus serrulata), which is commonly found on most bog edges, and in late succession bogs. I would like to see it in cultivation, as the bog I am talking about which had a whopping population of it a few years ago might be gone for all I know. Hopefully, someone like Phil has it in cultivation! Alex Netherton The Appalachian Naturalist http://appalachian-naturalist.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.320 / Virus Database: 179 - Release Date: 1/30/2002 [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: f_knoblewski@hotmail.com Wed Feb 6 21:31:34 2002 Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 05:31:32 +0000 Subject: squirrel fever I strongly disagree that the discussion of squirrels is not important. My bog was devastated by these varments just recently here in Kalamazoo, Michigan. We breed em big up here. I lost a very rare and beautiful bug catcher. Wholesale slaughter of these crazy critters is a top priority round these parts and should take priority in these discussions. If you live in squirrel free areas you can't imagine the trouble they cause. So ease up a little please and let us sort this problem out and get some kind of final solution. Freedo. ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Wed Feb 6 22:29:38 2002 Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 00:29:22 -0600 Subject: 3-inch dead > The exception for me was drosera adelae, which are obviously > allergic to me and die just from me looking at them. I don't have a problem with adelae, but any nearby capensis seem to deflate in my presence, if that makes you feel any better. I hiss everytime I read about how easy they are to grow. .b -- jblakeh1@mac.com http://www.jblakeharris.info/ http://www.SIT3.com/jblakeh1/ ################### From: kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Wed Feb 6 23:30:08 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 02:30:44 -0500 Subject: Re: squirrel fever There is no "final solution," & if not for Quirk's Corollary I would invoke Godwin's Law on this discussion. In the interest of ending this thread, I will summarize the options: Chicken wire. It's ugly, it works. Hav-A-Hart traps. Turn 'em into somebody else's problem. Shoot 'em. Offensive to many, not an option in urban environments. Traps & poison are generally bad ideas due to their indiscriminate nature. Predator urine may be effective, but I've seen no answer to Hideka's query a year ago on that subject. I use chicken wire myself; it's effective against flying rats (AKA pigeons, AKA the $&^**$*^& things that ate all my D. intermedia seed) as well as tree rats. That's about it for options, at least as far as I've seen in the 2 years or so I've been subscribed to this list. For further information on squirrels, or on why we want this thread to die, *PLEASE* check the nifty new archive search at . It's all been said before. -Kit At 9:37 PM -0800 2/6/02, Freedo Knoblewski wrote: >I strongly disagree that the discussion of squirrels is not important. My >bog was devastated by these varments just recently here in Kalamazoo, >Michigan. We breed em big up here. I lost a very rare and beautiful bug >catcher. Wholesale slaughter of these crazy critters is a top priority round >these parts and should take priority in these discussions. If you live in >squirrel free areas you can't imagine the trouble they cause. So ease up a >little please and let us sort this problem out and get some kind of final >solution. -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: jay.lechtman@ingenix.com Thu Feb 7 05:52:58 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:46:46 -0600 Subject: re: S. purpurea venosa montana I have this plant in cultivation (I think ABG made a mistake when they let some of it out into their gift shop!)and, while it is a bit more finicky than other S. purpurea specimens that I have, I don't find it all that difficult to grow (hoping I'm not jinxing myself). I grow it in live Sphagnum, outdoors in the Piedmont region of Northern Virginia (USDA Zone 7A). A quick check of the web (I think it was Trent who asked) shows that the plant appears to grow in Zones 6B and 7A (mountains of western North Carolina and far North Georgia). In my own experience, the plant is actually smaller and more compact than other S. purpurea venosa specimens in my collection. It looks more (to me) like a highly veined and hirsute S. purpurea purpurea than anything that grows along the U.S. Coastal Plain. I know the plant is fairly new to cultivation and not common, but I had no idea it was in fact so rare amongst growers. Jay Lechtman ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Thu Feb 7 06:28:18 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:29:00 -0500 Subject: Species descriptions Hello Jan, Thank you for this information! First of all, it is important to identify what you have and what you > want to describe. > One must first understand what has already been described. This was reason for my question. >From your statements I conclude that you are talking about ICBN-taxa > ("species"), not cultivars. Yes. > The name of a new species (or any taxon below the rank of species) must > be based on a permanently conserved type specimen. Usually, this is a > herbarium specimen> Would be possible to discover a "new" species in an overlooked, existing herbarium specimen? As possibly in some "_D. indica_" collections might now be _D. hartmeyerorum_ ? > My language skills are extreemly limited, My spelling and communication skills are just as extremely limited. Thank you again, Steven Stewart Florida, USA ################### From: michaelpagoulatos@yahoo.com Thu Feb 7 06:47:16 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 06:47:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: TO Wayne Morrow, SUBJECT: Nepenthes intensive care unit Wayne, you wrote: "Describe your Nep ICU ...." I have constructed a Nepenthes ICU chamber using Scedule20-PVC-pipe, 2 PVC t-connectors, 4 PVC elbow connectors, some fishing line and a clear plastic sheet which surounds the PVC frame . At the bottom one can fit plastic flats in which the plants can sit. It's simple, adjustable in size, portable and cost maybe $3-4. Great for folks who do not yet have a greenhouse but grow Nepenthes on windowsills. Email me if you want the plans. I put rooted cuttings in there until they start new growth, and I also put newly-arrived Nepenthes plants until they get used to the temperature and light in my home and they start new growth. Take care, Michael Pagoulatos Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: michaelpagoulatos@yahoo.com Thu Feb 7 07:01:06 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:01:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3" Pot Pleasant Surprises Hans, you wrote "... you can get nice Nepenthes too, I suppose. But I don't like how badly identified they are. ... Though I must say I had a couple growing under lights with nice red pitchers. I wonder if they're the alata reds I see in hanging baskets for $30?....". >From the description, price and the fact that local nurseries always >have them, I'd bet that they are N. x coccinea. They are usually mature, very large plants with at least a dozen 4" pitchers hanging from them. Take care, Michael Pagoulatos Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Thu Feb 7 08:25:01 2002 Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 08:17:37 -0800 Subject: D. ramellosa Hi, I have a Drosera ramellosa that I got from our good friend Peter D. at the last BACPS meeting. It's doing great and just bloomed! Now, my question. Does anyone know if it will self? I only have one plant, so I guess that is my only option. Has anyone done leaf cuttings with it? And last, but not least, has anyone been through a dormancy with this plant. Does it need to be dry as a bone, or can I get away with moist? Thanks in advance, Stephen W. Davis www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: Foxoles@aol.com Thu Feb 7 09:00:52 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:00:34 EST Subject: Nature versus nurture Hi all, I was looking at the VCPS web site and drooling over the winner of their annual show - a beautiful and large Cephalotus. I then began to wonder whether this size of plant is unique to horticulture and never seen in nature and if so which CPs grow better in controlled artificial environments, whether larger or more pitchers, leaves etc, compared to those growing in the wild. Any thoughts? Jonathan www.cephalotus.info ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Thu Feb 7 09:46:03 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:45:10 -0700 Subject: Liverworts, was RE: Strange plant/fungus (?) growing with my CPs > It sounds like you have the dreaded liverwort. I would > consider repotting every pot that has been invaded. In any > other situation, this is a pretty little moss, but the small > carnivorous plant collection at San Francisco State > University was completely smothered in the stuff, eventually > killing off otherwise hardy species like D. binata and D. > capensis (!). It grows over the CP's growth points and > prevents new growth from getting light. Once it establishes > itself, it'll soon become the only green thing you'll see. > > Gary Kong Liverwort! I tried searching the listserv archives first but I couldn't remember what it was called (it was July 2000). Luckily it's only in a couple of small pots, so it shouldn't be too hard to control. I've already noticed a huge improvement in my U. calycifida after only a few days. I'll agree that it's a pretty little moss, which is why I didn't worry too much about it in the first place. I know better now. Thanks again for the info Gary. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 PS - The "Squirrel War" is in the March 2000 archives - DON'T start it again. This list has lost too many knowledgeable people because of stupid flame wars like that. ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 7 12:29:57 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:28:48 +0000 Subject: Re: D. ramellosa Hi, > >I have a Drosera ramellosa that I got from our good friend Peter D. at the >last BACPS meeting. It's doing great and just bloomed! > >Now, my question. Does anyone know if it will self? I only have one plant, >so I guess that is my only option. > I've never had any seed from any of mine so I guess it probably is self sterile. >Has anyone done leaf cuttings with it? > I haven't tried. >And last, but not least, has anyone been through a dormancy with this >plant. Does it need to be dry as a bone, or can I get away with moist? > Yes, bone dry but remember that as with all tuberous Drosera you should aim to dry the soil out very slowly over a 4-6 week period after the above ground part of the plant has died off. The good news is that this species will quickly self propagate in its subsequent years by producing additional tubers. -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Thu Feb 7 14:50:31 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:50:24 EST Subject: Importing non-CITES CP seeds into the U.S. I was just wondering if anyone is knowledgable about importing seeds of CP from nurseries outside the U.S. I understand that an import permit is needed for buy plants from international nurseries. However, is an import permit needed for seeds? Thanks for your help! Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: cteichreb@hotmail.com Thu Feb 7 17:26:07 2002 Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:26:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Strange plant/fungus (?) growing with my CPs Hi John, Sounds like liverwort to me. Get rid of it, quick! If left for too long, it really starts to take over the pot and can be almost impossible to eradicate. However, at early stages it's easy to control. It does tend to grow best in humid, low light conditions so as a preventative, you might want to alter your growing conditions slightly. Good luck with the Olympic hordes! Chris > >I vaguely recall some discussion a year or so ago regarding a creeping type >of plant or fungus that spreads across the soil surface. I don't know how >to describe what I've got except to say the leaves, which are bright green >and anywhere from a couple mm to a cm long, look kind of like a staghorn >fern - long and narrow with lots of branches. They're mostly pressed close >to the ground and when I pour water on the top of it I can see a green film >on the water, so I assume it spreads by spores. It's actually kind of >attractive but I think it's been slowly smothering my U. calycifida. For >now I've picked it fairly clean from the area immediately surrounding the >Utric leaves, but I'm wondering what it is and if I should do anything more >drastic about it? > >Also, I have some D. capillaris seedlings I got this winter with something >similar growing among them but it's dark green and roundish, about a half >cm >across, with slightly ruffled edges. Is this something that could easily >get out of control and should be removed? (Due of a bad case of cabin >fever >and a month-long break from school - thanks to the Olympics - I've suddenly >got time to look very closely at my plants!) Thanks in advance for any >help >that can be offered. > >John "trying to ward off more squirrel talk" Green >Salt Lake City, Utah USA >http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Thu Feb 7 17:31:06 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 01:31:05 +0000 Subject: aquarium heaters hello, i've been on vacation and had no email access for a week. i'm going to reply to several postings on this same topic. 1. it is interesting to hear of this 1990 article from the british journal. who is the author? i haven't ever had access to older journals from that society. i won't ask for a photocopy [with the squirrel wars reappearing, we definitely don't want to revisit the great copyright debate. (; ] what genera does the author report success with? it is a little bit hard for me to anticipate how the capillary matting would be beneficial if the claim is that tanks set up in this way lose water too quickly even with regular watering. in any case, i'm very curious to hear what this author reported success with. as a final note on that article, i just want to say that it is reprehensible that this author would use a time machine to go back to 1990 and claim my idea as his or her own. the nerve!!!! 2. i guess i'll have to modify my statement that started this whole thread. it seems incredible to me that ron could lose three inches of water in a partially covered aquarium in 2 or three days. i have some completely *uncovered* heated tanks in a room with low ambient humidity, and the max loss is one inch in 3 days. nevertheless, if that was your experience then that sucks, so i'll say that i *have* heard of one failure. 3. originally, when i was trying to find heating solutions for my tanks, the electric heating mats i was able to find were only 10 x 20 inches, would only heat to 70 degrees f, and had no thermostat. more recently i have seen (cf. charley's greenhouse catalog) larger (up to 2x4 feet) mats with thermostats allowing them to go up to 95 degrees f. they seem great but i can't spend 100$ on one anytime soon. i certainly see no reason why these wouldn't be useful tools for those who can afford them. 4. those misting machines are interesting. i used to see them at pet shops but at that time they were 70$. since i didn't know they had any kind of heating effect, i certainly wasn't going to shell out 70$ for the (admittedly nifty) fog effect. i would love to hear what experiences you have with these machines, especially info about the air temperature increase yielded in a given water/tank volume in a given ambient room temperature. please fill me in. --mike Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Thu Feb 7 17:39:37 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 01:39:35 +0000 Subject: pinguicula reticulata/alfrd lau hello, i sold my soul to the devil in order to see alfred lau speak at the bacps meeting this past saturday. suffice it to say that if you can get him to come to your area, do so without hesitation. one very interesting tidbit from him was this: he showed some slides of p. reticulata in habitat. offhandedly, he mentioned that this species was very easy to cultivate. while it has not been very hard for me to *grow*, it has been hard (impossible) for me to flower, an experience confirmed by some other growers who are much more experienced than me. so i pressed dr. lau for more info about this "easy" plant. admittedly, he is growing the plant outdoors in an area with more or less similar conditions to the habitat, so you'd expect him to have a leg up. but what fascinated me was his choice of growing medium: pure potting soil. --mike Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: CMcdon0923@aol.com Thu Feb 7 18:55:04 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:54:52 EST Subject: New USPS CP Stamps I was at the PO the other day and while the clerk was away getting my package, I happened to look at a poster on the wall. What struck my eye was a set of stamps to be released around April of this year, which while not specifically depicting CP, contains at least two species. The URL below will show an image I pulled down from the USPS website. www.members.aol.com/cmcdon0923/private/pineforrestcp.jpg Craig McDonald Frisco, TX ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Thu Feb 7 19:00:00 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:59:58 +1100 Subject: Experiments with Parafin and Tubers Just a quick note on the use of Parafin for storage of tubers. Richard Davion has been experimenting with Parafin for storage of both drosera tubers and pygmy Drosera gemmae. I received three tubers of Drosera praefolia from Richard in December 2000. I stuck these in the fridge at a stable 4 deg C until three weeks ago. During this time the tubers remained completely dormant. They have now begun to grow and hopefully will return to their normal growth pattern. This method may be useful for converting tubers from a southern hemisphere cycle to a northern hemisphere cycle by storing the tuber for 18 months. Reports from Richard so far on gemmae are also successful. Gemmae has been potted up every month. This has produced plants of different ages (1 month apart) all year. I'm not sure about flowering times but he had pygmies growing well in the summer time while others of the same species were dormant. If these species could be traded worldwide by this method, it could be very helpful Regards Greg Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Thu Feb 7 19:07:25 2002 Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:46:28 -0600 Subject: Re: New USPS CP Stamps Cool, hunh? Do the PO people look at you guys really, really strangely when you ask for the CP stamps? Do they keep them in a little cupboard all by themselves in the back? Wayne >a set of stamps to be released around April of this year, ################### From: CMcdon0923@aol.com Thu Feb 7 21:20:27 2002 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:20:09 EST Subject: Re: New USPS CP Stamps << Do the PO people look at you guys really, really strangely when you ask for the CP stamps? >> I don't know...I NEVER look them in the eyes.....if you do, they'll suck your brains out and send them out to Area 51 to feed to the aliens that they're holding there as part of a big government conspiracy and cover-up. The aliens like them even more than squirrel brains. Craig (if that's really my name.....) ################### From: K.Cook@bom.gov.au Thu Feb 7 21:25:33 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:55:10 +0930 Subject: USPS CP stamps > >I was at the PO the other day and while the clerk was away getting my >package, I happened to look at a poster on the wall. What struck my eye was >a set of stamps to be released around April of this year, which while not >specifically depicting CP, contains at least two species. What a nice minature sheet, featuring a Longleaf Pine Forest, lots of pitcher plants and, in the middle of the picture, a cute little squirrel. Cheers, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: corusc8@hotmail.com Thu Feb 7 22:47:43 2002 Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:44:35 -0800 Subject: bitter sarcasm After planting invasive carnivorous plant species in bogs this spring, I was planning to sell handmade squirrel finger puppets direct to all of you wholesale, they're cheap. I'll post a price list soon.A can a day is all I ask (wait, is that phrase copyrighted?) Please post your orders on the listserve before reading the FAQ page. Joe P.S. Can we please move on from this flame up about rodents? Not one to quell free speech, but it is quelling interesting discussion and squirrel discussions are fascinating to me (really, no smirking). And on an additional note, I little over 300 people have attended my classes on carnivorous plants over the last couple of years. Many of them were 6th graders. The Bay Area is cultivating a new crop of individuals devoted to these plants. For every Barry, David, and Peter there are literally hundreds to follow in their footsteps. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Feb 8 01:48:00 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:48:39 +0100 Subject: Re: Species descriptions Dear Steven, > Would be possible to discover a "new" species in an overlooked, existing > herbarium specimen? Yes. Quite a few species have been "discovered" in herbaria this way. > As possibly in some "_D. indica_" collections might now > be _D. hartmeyerorum_ ? This is very well possible. A few years ago, I "discovered" an old specimen of _Utricularia wightiana_ (the label called it "U. caerulea", which would have been a moderately boring, widespread species with quite a different appearance) in the fairly small herbarium of the University of Tuebingen (where I am mailing from at the moment). This species was illustrated and described with an invalid name (by Wight himself) already in 1850, but it received its valid name by Taylor as late as 1986. In the meanwhile it had been the victim of confusion surrounding the names _U. caerulea_/_U. squamosa_ (_U. wightiana_ used to be united with a taxon we now call _U. graminifolia_). Always ask what the specimen looks like. The label may be wrong. If large collections are made in a short period of time (before the habitat is bulldozed), the identification is frequently preliminary (imagine a single, poor taxonomist sitting in the middle of nowhere before a pile of thousands of dried plant remnants; just pencil and paper, no library, no colleagues, no internet connection; it just starts raining on his tent...). And it may take years until an expert (still poor due to ongoing budget cuts but now usually - hopefully! - in a safe, warm, dry university environment) revises the material. Kind regards Jan ################### From: meadow@bealenet.com Fri Feb 8 06:55:19 2002 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:37:40 GMT Subject: Re: S. purpurea montana and Green S. leucophylla Hi Folks: We are raising two colonies of S. purprea montana. One from the Georgia mountains and the other from Henderson County, North Carolina. As mentioned on the list serve they are beautiful plant. We won't have plants to sell for several years. However, our Henderson County plants are mature flowering size plants (which we are pollinating to raise more plants from seed to make available to you) and we can perform a controlled pollination for you and deliver the capsule to you in the fall. We perform this service for $25.00/cross plus $10.00 for shipping and handling. We are seeing a lot of interest this year in our pollination service and I invite you to contract us to perform the pollination you desire. The green S. leucophylla is now almost completely sold out for 2002. We have either sold, or committed to sale, 7 of the 10 plants available. So.. if you want this plant this year get your order in. Look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station http://www.bealenet.com ################### From: ullsperg@hotmail.com Fri Feb 8 08:31:26 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 08:31:24 -0800 Subject: Re: heating mats Mike Wilder wrote that he'd seen some expensive 2x4 heating mats in a recent Charley's Greenhouse catalog. This may seem obvious to some, but I have to remind myself constantly: search the www for the manufacturer/brand name. A lot of stuff (e.g., humidifiers) in that catalog is available elsewhere for 40-50% of Charley's asking price. chris ################### From: JDPDX@aol.com Fri Feb 8 08:44:23 2002 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:44:13 EST Subject: Drosera adelae A questions for the sundew experts. Normally I've had great luck growing D. adelae but recently I've had quite a few failures. The only thing different in their care is the soil I've been using which is a mix from a specialty soil producer containing 1/3 perlite, 1/3 peat, and 1/3 pumice. It has no fertilizer, but does have a wetting agent. The plants have been under twin tube fluorecent lights, 14 hour day, constantly wet, temps 60-70 F. Other plants in this stuff have grown just fine including D. capenis, D. binata, Flytraps and Sarracenia. Any thoughts? Jeff Portland, OR ################### From: kweaver@ruthchek.com Fri Feb 8 08:49:15 2002 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:45:31 -0800 Subject: Suspicious behavior I'd be careful when asking the postal workers about CP stamps. That sort of weird, suspicious behavior is enough for someone to call Ashcroft's "TIPS" line. Have a nice day! Kevin >>Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:46:28 -0600 Cool, hunh? Do the PO people look at you guys really, really strangely when you ask for the CP stamps? Do they keep them in a little cupboard all by themselves in the back? Wayne<<< ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Fri Feb 8 09:12:59 2002 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:08:39 -0800 Subject: Fossil CP Hi all, I recently attended a local lapidary society meeting and came across an interesting item. These rock people collect fossils as well as other more pretty stones. From one person I met I obtained a slab of petrified marsh which was cut to show bullrush crowns in cross section. It is composed of brown agatized peat. I found no CP in it, but I figure such a stone could just as well show Sarracenia rhizomes. The piece is from what is now the Mohave Desert in Southern California. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Fri Feb 8 09:14:01 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:13:51 EST Subject: Re: Drosera adelae Jeff, D. adelae, along with D. schizandra and D. prolifera are three CP that will not stand fertilizer. I am not sure what a "wetting agent" is, but it may be a chemical that D. adelae does not like, in the respect that it does not like fertilizer. Maybe you should repot them in another mix. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Fri Feb 8 09:48:45 2002 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:48:37 EST Subject: Re: Fossil CP This would be a good way to "prove" the existence of CP in a certain area, and possibly to give some timeline as to when they were there. It could help us determine if a plant like Dionaea had a much larger range at one time, or if it is of more recent origin. Or how about tracking Sarracenia (current species and extinct) on their trek to the south. Michael Catalani Hi all, I recently attended a local lapidary society meeting and came across an interesting item. These rock people collect fossils as well as other more pretty stones. From one person I met I obtained a slab of petrified marsh which was cut to show bullrush crowns in cross section. It is composed of brown agatized peat. I found no CP in it, but I figure such a stone could just as well show Sarracenia rhizomes. The piece is from what is now the Mohave Desert in Southern California. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/ [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Fri Feb 8 09:53:19 2002 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:52:02 EST Subject: Re: Drosera adelae Of the plants you list, D. adelae would be the most tender. It may be giving you an early warning signal that something is wrong with the soil. The other plants may do just fine in this soil. Or, they may decline as well over time, but just not do so as quickly D. adelae. Michael Catalani In a message dated 2/8/2002 10:47:57 AM Central Standard Time, JDPDX@aol.com writes: > A questions for the sundew experts. Normally I've had great luck growing D. > adelae but recently I've had quite a few failures. The only thing > different > in their care is the soil I've been using which is a mix from a specialty > soil producer containing 1/3 perlite, 1/3 peat, and 1/3 pumice. It has no > fertilizer, but does have a wetting agent. > > The plants have been under twin tube fluorecent lights, 14 hour day, > constantly wet, temps 60-70 F. > > Other plants in this stuff have grown just fine including D. capenis, D. > binata, Flytraps and Sarracenia. > > Any thoughts? > > Jeff > [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Fri Feb 8 10:25:02 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:24:59 -0800 Subject: Re: Word of caution about aquarium heaters >>>i do not know of any prior published account of using heated water >>See the article in the (British) Carnivorous Plant Society Journal, Vol 14 (2) from 1990. The article describes a setup using a standard fish aquarium, aquarium heater in bottom, plants on a plastic support a few inches above. The article also takes this one step further with the use of capillary matting with the end of the matting dipping into the water, so that you never have to water the plants. >i just want to say that it is reprehensible that this author would use a >time machine to go back to 1990 and claim my idea as his or her own. the nerve. No need to take it personal, just because someone beat you by 11 years. :-). >it seems incredible to me that ron could lose three inches of water in a partially covered aquarium in 2 or three days. i have some completely *uncovered* heated tanks in a room with low ambient humidity, and the max loss is one inch in 3 days. Actually, I lost about 2 inches of water until the heater started to be exposed to the air. The heater is about an inch high when it is on its side. You also have to factor in the volume of water, the wattage of the heater, and the temperature the thermostat on the heater is set to. Nevertheless, I see you also observed a high rate of evaporation. Did you try a test where the tank sprung a leak and all the water ran out? >originally, when i was trying to find heating solutions for my tanks, the electric heating mats i was able to find were only 10 x 20 inches, would only heat to 70 degrees f, and had no thermostat. more recently i have seen (cf. charley's greenhouse catalog) larger (up to 2x4 feet) mats with thermostats allowing them to go up to 95 degrees f. they seem great but i can't spend 100$ on one anytime soon. For that matter, there is also aquarium heaters available for $100. The $100 heating mat you mentioned is the most expensive one Charley's has, but they also have other heating mats at cheaper prices. Here's another tip: the pet stores sell heating mats and thermostats, too In fact, there are various under-the-tank heating mats available at these places. They were originally intended to be used to heat reptile terrariums, but can be used in carnivorous plant setups as well. The mail order pet stores have the cheapest price. Shop around, you'll be surprised by what you can find. Incidently, I've been using heating mats with thermostats for two years on my carnivorous plants. The main advantage of the heating mats is there is no potential fire hazard risk like there is with the aquarium heaters. The disadvantage with the heating mats is they cost a little more than the aquarium heaters. Another heating method which has worked for me, is using heating cables. The cables are buried in gravel in the bottom of the tank. I had an aquarium which I converted to carnivorous plant terrarium. Since I already had the gravel in the tank, I decided to try the heating cables. The heating cables have a built-in thermostat, and they keep the tank warm to about 75 to 85 degrees F. I have the cable hooked up to the same timer my lights are on, so at night, the temperature drops to the room temperature. I only need to use the heating cable during the winter; during the summer is it unplugged. >4. those misting machines are interesting. i used to see them at pet shops >but at that time they were 70$ Again, shop around. I've seen them for $30. I've tried these as well. They don't last that long, they give out after about 3 months. I've tried two misters, too. They do increase the humidity. They don't make good heaters, as they don't give off that much heat. Even if they were good heaters, you would have to have them on for longer periods of time, which means they would just burn out that much sooner. Ron Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Fri Feb 8 10:55:25 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:55:18 -0500 Subject: RE: Re: Drosera adelae Hi Jeff-- I grow mine in pure long-fibered sphagnum, very wet and it does just fine. Old rosettes die off, but the plant freely sprouts new shoots from its roots. One thing I've found is that they don't like being too warm. Gary Kong Killerplants@aol.com wrote: > > Jeff, > > D. adelae, along with D. schizandra and D. prolifera are three CP that will not stand fertilizer. I am not sure what a "wetting agent" is, but it may be a chemical that D. adelae does not like, in the respect that it does not like fertilizer. Maybe you should repot them in another mix. > > Regards, > > Joe Griffin > Lincoln, NE USA > -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: tfw@dol.net Fri Feb 8 12:05:44 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:47:38 -0800 Subject: Nepenthes clipeata Hello everyone, I found an orchid dealer that also sells neps. One of there neps. for sale is a nep. clipeata. You can find them at www.orchidweb.com . I know almost nothing about them.(a.ka. how they get there plants) Its to bad there out of stock though. ################### From: sean.taylor@bosinternet.com Fri Feb 8 13:31:33 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 21:39:15 +0000 Subject: Re:3" pots, D. Adelae, D.Capensis, and general hello... Hi All, Been subscribed to this list for some time, but this is my first post. I've not been growing long, and you've all given me much new stuff to think on, for which thanks! These recent threads caught my eye. Most of my (limited) collection has been acquired from 'home store' shelves where I live in Glasgow, Scotland. For some reason, CPs always appear on the same shelf as cacti, which does nothing for their life expectancy, but ensures regular discounts! The variety available is pretty good, and includes three neps so far (willl attempt ident if anyone interested), also d. adelae and d. capensis, usual s. purp, and etiolated vft's. Not to tootle my trumpet at all, but my adelae is a nice plump cushion, flowered last year, and my capensis plants grow and flower like nobody's business in a ceramic dish about 6" wide and 1/2" deep, watered through an embedded plastic pipe. Beginners luck, probably.... :) I'm currently looking for any information on plants likely to survive outside on the west coast of Scotland, as I intend to establish a small bog of my own over the next couple of years. Also, can anyone translate the US zone system for us Europeans, as this would enable me to use cultivation advice in these pages. Sean ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Fri Feb 8 14:18:12 2002 Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 09:18:10 +1100 Subject: Re:D. ramelosa and Importing seed to the US Greetings all, Drosera ramelosa will self pollinate. The info Phil posted yesterday is spot on in my opinion. Don't dry them out to fast. Although the plant looks dead on the surface, it needs time to suck the nutrients out of the subterrainean stem. If you dry it too fast, you will exhaust this leaving the tuber with less nutrients, therefore smaller tuber. This may not be enough to grow the following season. The importation of seed into the US is no problem at all. No weeds and no CITIES 1 listed stuff. That's it as far as I know. The only problem I've had is seed not getting there. I've sent quite a bit in ythe last few months with only about 70% of it getting to the final destination. If they were lost, that's bad postal service (no offence) but if they were intercepted for some reason, they notified no-one. This is annoying. I've had no trouble with sending seed to other countries and when seed is sent to me which customs don't like, the send me a letter letting me know they have it and asking me what I want to do. Either send it back or quarrantine it or destroy it! Regards Greg Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Fri Feb 8 14:51:15 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:47:32 -0800 Subject: Misters I was reading up on the care of them and you do have to take the ceramic disc off and clean it every so often. In fact one article said every 3 to 4 months is typical. Did you try cleaning the ceramic disc? At 10:32 AM 2/8/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >4. those misting machines are interesting. i used to see them at pet shops > >but at that time they were 70$ > >Again, shop around. I've seen them for $30. I've tried these as well. They >don't last that long, they give out after about 3 months. I've tried two >misters, too. They do increase the humidity. They don't make good heaters, >as they don't give off that much heat. Even if they were good heaters, you >would have to have them on for longer periods of time, which means they >would just burn out that much sooner. > >Ron Stephen W. Davis Primary: 408-229-2264 Mobile: 408-391-9575 Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: Cokendolpher@aol.com Fri Feb 8 15:15:38 2002 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:15:23 EST Subject: Re: Nepenthes clipeata In a message dated 2/8/02 2:10:01 PM, tfw@dol.net writes: >Hello everyone, > I found an orchid dealer that also sells neps. One of there neps. for >sale is a nep. clipeata. You can find them at www.orchidweb.com . I >know almost nothing about them.(a.ka. how they get there plants) Its to >bad there out of stock though. I telephoned the company and spoke with Jerry Fisher (Nep grower). He said that they still had three plants left. All are from a clone by John De Kanel, but he was not sure of the sex of the plants. He has two plants in 4 inch pots: one at $125 and one at $175. He also had another plant that was about 3 feet tall for $400. He said if anyone was interested to write or call and he would e-mail a picture. He said it was the true clipeata, not a hybrid. He also mentioned that they had cuttings of various other Neps. Cheers, James ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Fri Feb 8 15:51:14 2002 Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:51:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: UCDavis Open House Hey Folks, The open house tomorrow at UCDavis will be from 1:30 pm to 4:00 pm. Come on by, and check out the tres cool plants! Say hello to me and Beth! I won't be by my computer after sending this, so don't email for directions. But there are directions at: http://greenhouse.ucdavis.edu/conserv_lg.htm Later Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: insecttrap@hotmail.com Fri Feb 8 19:15:24 2002 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 22:15:22 -0500 Subject: Re: bitter sarcasm Damn those Californians!! Their multiplying like squirrels!?!? >From: "Joseph Kinyon" >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: bitter sarcasm >Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:54:31 -0800 (PST) > >After planting invasive carnivorous plant species in bogs this >spring, I was planning to sell handmade squirrel finger puppets >direct to all of you wholesale, they're cheap. I'll post a price >list soon.A can a day is all I ask (wait, is that phrase >copyrighted?) Please post your orders on the listserve before >reading the FAQ page. > >Joe > >P.S. Can we please move on from this flame up about rodents? Not >one to quell free speech, but it is quelling interesting discussion >and squirrel discussions are fascinating to me (really, no >smirking). > >And on an additional note, I little over 300 people have attended my >classes on carnivorous plants over the last couple of years. Many >of them were 6th graders. The Bay Area is cultivating a new crop of >individuals devoted to these plants. For every Barry, David, and >Peter there are literally hundreds to follow in their footsteps. > >[HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Fri Feb 8 23:19:52 2002 Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 02:20:19 -0500 Subject: Re:3" pots, D. Adelae, D.Capensis, and general hello... At 1:33 PM -0800 2/8/02, Sean Taylor wrote: >Also, can anyone translate the US zone system for us Europeans, as this >would enable me to use cultivation advice in these pages. Hi Sean: The zones are based on minimum temperatures & not much else, as far as I can tell. I'll try to summarize below, but I found this info at the following URL: HTH, -Kit USDA Hardiness Zones and Average Annual Minimum Temperature Range USDA Zone Temperature Range Example Cities 1 Below -50 F Fairbanks, Alaska (below -45.6 C) Resolute, Northwest Territories (Canada) 2a -50 to -45 F Prudhoe Bay, Alaska (-42.8 to -45.5 C) Flin Flon, Manitoba (Canada) 2b -45 to -40 F Unalakleet, Alaska (-40.0 to -42.7 C) Pinecreek, Minnesota 3a -40 to -35 F International Falls, Minnesota (-37.3 to -39.9 C) St. Michael, Alaska 3b -35 to -30 F Tomahawk, Wisconsin (-34.5 to -37.2 C) Sidney, Montana 4a -30 to -25 F Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota (-31.7 to -34.4 C) Lewistown, Montana 4b -25 to -20 F Northwood, Iowa (-28.9 to -31.6 C) Nebraska 5a -20 to -15 F Des Moines, Iowa (-26.2 to -28.8 C) Illinois 5b -15 to -10 F Columbia, Missouri (-23.4 to -26.1 C) Mansfield, Pennsylvania 6a -10 to -5 F St. Louis, Missouri (-20.6 to -23.3 C) Lebanon, Pennsylvania 6b -5 to 0 F McMinnville, Tennessee (-17.8 to -20.5 C) Branson, Missouri 7a 0 to 5 F Oklahoma City, Oklahoma (-15.0 to -17.7 C) South Boston, Virginia 7b 5 to 10 F Little Rock, Arkansas (-12.3 to -14.9 C) Griffin, Georgia 8a 10 to 15 F Tifton, Georgia (-9.5 to -12.2 C) Dallas, Texas 8b 15 to 20 F Austin, Texas (-6.7 to -9.4 C) Gainesville, Florida 9a 20 to 25 F Houston, Texas (-3.9 to -6.6 C) St. Augustine, Florida 9b 25 to 30 F Brownsville, Texas (-1.2 to -3.8 C) Fort Pierce, Florida 10a 30 to 35 F Naples, Florida (1.6 to -1.1 C) Barstow, California 10b 35 to 40 F Miami, Florida (4.4 to 1.7 C) Coral Gables, Florida 11 Above 40 F Honolulu, Hawaii (above 4.5 C) Mazatlan (Mexico) -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: a_bilgri@hotmail.com Sat Feb 9 13:36:27 2002 Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 15:36:25 -0600 Subject: CP stamps Hello everyone, I have found the CP stamps at http://www.petflytrap.com Or if you want to go strait to it - http://www1.ecxmall.com/stores/petflytrap/Detail.bok?searchpath=d8346805ebeccf9b893b&category=Plants&start=1&total=17&no=23 Hope this helps somebody, Alex Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Sat Feb 9 13:43:38 2002 Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 15:43:36 -0600 Subject: Orchids Limited I won't diss a dealer on listserv, but I would pay an attention when I deal with Jerry. I used to have an extensive contact with him, so I know his nursery well. If you a rich enough, and want a specimen in very good shape, that is a good place to blow your money. But if you want decent plants for decent prices, I don't know if it is your choice. I stopped dealing with him after he changed the price quote of Phal. lowii in response to my e-mail inquiry even if he told me otherwise over the phone (He wrote me back, "Well, I don't have too many of those any more"). And it was at least the second time (First time was Mexipedium xerophyticum). I also received "a selected" Paph. (Druid Spring)that had never bloomed. He chose it from population of three or so because "the flower bud had a better shape." Duh! He also sent me "a good" Paph. esquirolei because one plant from the same batch (wild collected) got an award (but just a HCC--I think the owner of this plant was Wharton Sinkler when he was still a partner of Orchid Zone. His grandfather or great grandfather was the third AOS president). I must admit all (most?) plants I had received were in good shape. BUt quite frankly, I never bought a Nepenthes from him. <> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: csvieira@epm.net.co Sat Feb 9 18:50:09 2002 Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 21:49:18 -0500 Subject: Looking for Nepenthes Pollen Hi, A friend here has a female N.alata which is just starting to bloom. if there is someone with a blooming male plant willing to send some pollen and get some seed if the plant produces seed please write me in a private e-mail. Happy Growing, Sebastian ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Sat Feb 9 21:04:24 2002 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:11:56 -0500 Subject: Response from Borneo Exotics (Rob) (nepenthes@borneoexotics.com) Hello, This is an automatically generated response to let you know that your message has been received and is flagged for the attention of Rob Cantley at Borneo Exotics. Rob will get back to you as soon as possible. Thank you. ################### From: panetti@execpc.com Sun Feb 10 06:56:22 2002 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:53:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Orchids Limited I have also dealt with Jerry and John de Kanel. I view both as very reputable and although pricey, the best quality . I have rec'd many orchids from Jerry and many neps from John. I have not however, rec'd any neps from Jerry. I have known for a year or so that John did sell Jerry some neps including Clipeata and Hamata. For what its worth. Dan Panetti S. E. Wisconsin ################### From: saldula@attcanada.ca Sun Feb 10 11:47:54 2002 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:37:54 -0800 Subject: Devil's Claw Seed Source? > Hi All; I have been fascinated by Devil's Claw (Ibicella or Proboscidea) for some time now. Does anyone know of a source for seeds of these rather unusual plants? Please respond to my private e-mail address saldula@attcanada.ca Thanks, Dean ################### From: Denis_Jackson@Mitel.COM Sun Feb 10 11:53:15 2002 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:51:31 +0000 Subject: Re: Devil's Claw Seed Source? B&T world seeds had some last year. Regards Denis |--------+------------------------> | | Marie-Pascale | Rivet | | | | | | | | | | 02/10/02 19:49| Please respond| to cp | | | | | | | |--------+------------------------> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | | | To: Multiple recipients of list CP | | cc: (bcc: Denis Jackson/Cal/Mitel) | Subject: Devil's Claw Seed | Source? | >----------------------------------------------------------------------------| > Hi All; I have been fascinated by Devil's Claw (Ibicella or Proboscidea) for some time now. Does anyone know of a source for seeds of these rather unusual plants? Please respond to my private e-mail address saldula@attcanada.ca Thanks, Dean ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Sun Feb 10 12:34:47 2002 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:36:32 -0500 Subject: Nature vs nuture Hello Jonathan, I grow Cephalotus, but mine are not what I would call "beautiful and large". On the other hand I would think certain Drosera, Dionaea, Nepenthes and some Sarracenia I have grown probably have a greater number of large undamaged leaves than plants ever could in the wild. I have seen some gorgeous Heliamphora in one private collection here in Florida. This tender genus enjoys being surrounded by tempered glass. I think cp in general take quite a beating in the wild, because of the disturbed sites they grow, and their very nature of insect attraction. In a house I can control insect damage, fungus problems, temperature, water and light conditions, which make very pretty plants. I certainly can't match a field population of any wild cp in culture though. Take care, Steven Stewart Florida, USA a beautiful and large Cephalotus. > I then began to wonder whether this size of plant is unique to horticulture > and never seen in nature and if so which CPs grow better in controlled > artificial environments, whether larger or more pitchers, leaves etc, > compared to those growing in the wild. > Any thoughts? > > Jonathan > > www.cephalotus.info ################### From: bonsaikuah@hotmail.com Sun Feb 10 14:53:33 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:53:31 +0800 XSubject: Nature vs nuture
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################### From: v@foto-cd.com Sun Feb 10 19:09:53 2002 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:09:49 -0500 Subject: Devil's Claw (Proboscidea lousianica) seed for sale Hi, I got some seed of this insect catching (not eating!) plant for sale. See a picture of the mother plant in flower here: http://www.foto-cd.com/cp/probo.jpg The seed with the unique fruit http://www.foto-cd.com/cp/proboseedsmall.jpg They grew in compost soil between tomatoes and melons. They became huge! So forget about low nutrient soil (tried that, but they were rather small), when you plant those. Germination took forever (2+ months!), but I guess the crucial factor was the minimum temperature at night, so keep them warm in the beginning. 10 seeds for $3 shipped. Volker [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Sun Feb 10 20:10:46 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 04:10:40 +0000 Subject: aquarium heaters hello, ron, you have a strange habit of misquoting me and refusing to answer my questions. if you have an axe to grind with me that is fine, but let's at least try to keep this useful for everyone since it is a public forum. it is odd to me that you have twice quoted me as saying: >>>i do not know of any prior published account of using heated water obviously it makes no sense to attribute this claim to me, since i *discussed* d'amato's water jar in my article. i still would like to know who wrote the 1990 article, and what genera the author reported success with. since what i actually said is: "i do not know of any prior published account of using heated water to assist in the germination of d. petiolaris seeds, or of any cp seed", i would still like to hear whether the author of the 1990 article gave any report on this topic. since you brought up this article but refuse to give any details about it, i suspect that you are reluctant to admit (the horror) that maybe, just maybe, my article isn't completely worthless. i would also like to know why the addition of capillary matting is beneficial, in either your view or the author's. since you insist that the water evaporates at a dangerous rate, it seems like using the matting to avoid having to water and perhaps pay less attention to the tank would make such a tank even *more* prone to failure. i would also like to know why it seems advantageous to use matting rather than just letting the pots sit in water, for those genera that can tolerate sitting in water. finally, since you were hip to this article so long ago, why aren't you attacking the (still unnamed) author of that piece, rather than me? >>>No need to take it personal, just because someone beat you by 11 years. >>>:-). this is a strange interpretation of my joke. why would i care? i'm not in a race with anyone. i tried to solve problems in my grow space within my financial limitations, and i succeeded. i felt that the solution was very versatile, and that others might benefit from hearing about it. i'm sorry that you didn't. >it seems incredible to me that ron could lose three inches of water in a partially covered aquarium in 2 or three days. i have some completely *uncovered* heated tanks in a room with low ambient humidity, and the max loss is one inch in 3 days. >>>Actually, I lost about 2 inches of water until the heater started to be exposed to the air. The heater is about an inch high when it is on its side.Nevertheless, I see you also observed a high rate of evaporation. again, a starnge interpretation of what i said. i gave the max water loss that i have experienced in *uncovered* tanks, which was approximately half of what you experienced with a *covered* tank. i gave this bit of info to back up my claim that your experience seems "incredible" ("hard to believe;astonishing" 2nd new american dictionary), not to agree that the water evaporates too fast. the nepenthes tanks never lose enough water, i always have to siphon out excess. the d. petiolaris complex drosera tanks are uncovered and lose at the most one inch in 3 days. i grow these plants sitting in water all the time, so i would have to add more water to keep them wet long before the heater becomes uncovered. in passing, i also wonder why you don't experience the same water loss when heating a tank with a mat. if the mat is actually heating the water to the same temp as with an aquarium heater, it seems like the water should evaporate just as quickly. >>Did you try a test where the tank sprung a leak and all the water ran out? of course not. nor have i tried proving the hazardousness of butterknives by stuffing one into an electrical outlet. i have gone on record repeatedly (including in my article) claiming that aquarium heaters are dangerous if not submerged. to carry out this experiment would be to prove something that everyone already agrees upon. >>>The $100 heating mat you mentioned is the most expensive one Charley's has, but they also have other heating mats at cheaper prices. Here's another tip: the pet stores sell heating mats and thermostats, too In fact, there are various under-the-tank heating mats available at these places. They were originally intended to be used to heat reptile terrariums, but can be used in carnivorous plant setups as well. The mail order pet stores have the cheapest price. Shop around, you'll be surprised by what you can find. i mention the most expensive one because it is the one that is 2X4 feet, and therefore the one that i would need for my 2x4 foot nepenthes tank. it is good to know that these mats are available cheaper in your area, and perhaps in mine. at the time that i was trying to solve these problems, i could not find anything big enough that had a thermostat and could therefore heat above 70 degrees. in any case, i'm well satisfied with my tanks as they are and don't need to replace the heaters with new mats, no matter how cheap. i have already agreed that the mats seem like a useful tool; had they been available and affordable for me at the time i might have chosen that route. >>>You also have to factor in the volume of water, the wattage of the >>>heater, and the temperature the thermostat on the heater is set to. i gave info on the (tank) air temperature increase yielded by a given heater wattage at a given temp in a given volume of water in a given ambient room temp, when the tank is set up as for nepenthes. see page 24 of cpn, volume 30, no. 1 . i thought that was pretty precise. i'm sorry if that isn't precise enough for you. but perhaps what you are saying is that because all of these "givens" will vary from grower to grower, the evaporation rate i observe may not be the same as for others. this seems perfectly plausible, except that a tightly sealed tank doesn't lose water, it retains it. but even if we ignore that and use no cover, it still seems like all you are claiming is that any grower who uses a different volume of water, wattage of heater, and/or temperature on thermostat than me should make sure to check the evaporation rate and make sure that his or her heater doesn't become exposed to air. if that is your point, i agree completely. but then the catastrophe you reported seems like your fault, not a flaw in the method (since the heater never would have been exposed to air had you followed this advice). perhaps you meant something else? --mike ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Sun Feb 10 20:17:52 2002 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:16:27 -0800 Subject: Hi all, I just wanted to tell everyone that my Drosera cistifolia is in bud. There's one large one, and a smaller developing one. Anyone else having theirs ready to bloom? Stephen W. Davis www.eaglesroost.net Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Sun Feb 10 21:12:14 2002 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:12:12 -0800 Subject: Re: Word of caution about aquarium heaters >if you have an axe to grind with me that is fine, but let's at least try to >keep this useful for everyone since it is a public forum. Please don't take it personally. I was merely expressing caution in using the aquarium heaters. I do not know why you seem to object to this warning, nor do I know why you have removed the word 'caution' from the title of my postings when you replied. I think the other growers should aware all of the facts so they can make an informed decision. >>>Actually, I lost about 2 inches of water until the heater started to be >>>exposed to the air. The heater is about an inch high when it is on its >>>side.Nevertheless, I see you also observed a high rate of evaporation. >again, a starnge interpretation of what i said. i gave the max water loss >that i have experienced in *uncovered* tanks, which was approximately half >of what you experienced with a *covered* tank. i gave this bit of info to >back up my claim that your experience seems "incredible" ("hard to >believe;astonishing" 2nd new american dictionary), not to agree that the >water evaporates too fast. I was testing it in a 10-gallon tank, so the relative evaporation was higher. Also, my tank wasn't completely covered. >i also wonder why you don't experience the same water loss when heating a >tank with a mat. if the mat is actually heating the water to the same temp >as with an aquarium heater, it seems like the water should evaporate just >as quickly. The water does evaporate quickly using the heating mats, too. I just don't have to worry about it like you do when using an aquarium heater. I don't have to keep it covered all the time either, which is desirable anyway for the air circulation. There's been a few occasions when the tank became bone dry at the bottom. But this is no big deal, because there is no fire hazard potential with the heating mats. It is a big deal if the tank goes dry when using the aquarium heaters. >>Did you try a test where the tank sprung a leak and all the water ran out? >of course not. nor have i tried proving the hazardousness of butterknives >by stuffing one into an electrical outlet. i have gone on record repeatedly >(including in my article) claiming that aquarium heaters are dangerous if >not submerged. We're in agreement then. But I just wanted to emphasize that point: aquariums heaters are dangerous if not submerged at all times. You have to exercise vigilance to ensure this dangerous condition with the heaters don't occur. The threat for a fire hazard will always be there. The heating mats are a safer alternative. >i have already agreed that the mats seem like a useful tool; had they been >available and affordable for me at the time i might have chosen that route. I've actually tried both the aquarium heaters and the heating mats. I chose the heating mats because there is no fire hazard risk to deal with and it gives me piece of mind. Ron MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: f_knoblewski@hotmail.com Sun Feb 10 21:22:03 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:22:01 +0000 Subject: bad mistake Dear list, I was so angry that squirrels kill my favorite bug catcher that I take a gun last night and shoot many hundred critter in park and every where. I write from Kalamazoo sanitarium this moment. I warn don't take this action please. Squirrel is good is good is good critter. I need someone from Kalamazoo to water my cp please. In best spirit, Freedo. Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Sun Feb 10 21:44:40 2002 Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:44:38 -0600 Subject: Orchids Limited I have not dealt with the latter, so my comment was solely on Jerry. Yes, Jerry grows very well, but I hear Terry Root at Orchiod Zone does it better. When I visited OZ first time, OMG! I couldn't believe when I picked up a clone of Paph. Voodoo Magic (very good one) for a such low price! And the wife of the owner was making a bouquet of Paph. rothschildianum! That was an incredible experience. Anyway, I don't buy orchids that much any more. Since basically many (most?) of Paphs. Jerry is selling are from OZ or similar, I would stick with OZ if I still buy a lot (their min. is $500). I also tend to buy from nurseries that are the primary producers (H&R, Carmela, to name a few), as opposed to nurseries that buy from them. Of course, this is my personal preference. But I have noticed many nurseries are selling too much of the same stuff. One huge problem I had with him is his dishing other growers. Yes, I love to hear some rumor, but I quite don't think I encouraged him dishing. His products are good, and his shipping is excellent. This is the most important thing, and other things should not bother too much. Besides, there are many other nurseries (The Oxxxx Hxxxe, Oxx xixx, etc) I rank below Orchids Limted anyway. Don't get me started on this:P Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Sun Feb 10 21:47:08 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:47:07 +1100 Subject: Drosera binata G'day all, I'm looking for Drosera binata clones. These must have location details and must not be cross bred with clones from other areas. If you can help me with this please email me privately. I will pay for all clones. Regards greg MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: joe@jmmsoftware.com Mon Feb 11 00:42:50 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:41:59 -0800 Subject: Re: Devil's Claw (Proboscidea lousianica) seed for sale Proboscidea lousianica is not the carnivorous one. The carnivorous Devil's Claw is Ibicella Lutea, and it has yellow flowers, not pink. -Joe > I got some seed of this insect catching (not eating!) plant for > sale. See a picture of the mother plant in flower here: > > http://www.foto-cd.com/cp/probo.jpg > ################### From: John.Wilden@hmce.gsi.gov.uk Mon Feb 11 02:38:44 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:42:24 -0000 Subject: aquarium heaters >>>i do not know of any prior published account of using heated water obviously it makes no sense to attribute this claim to me, since i *discussed* d'amato's water jar in my article. i still would like to know who wrote the 1990 article, and what genera the author reported success with. since what i actually said is: "i do not know of any prior published account of using heated water to assist in the germination of d. petiolaris seeds, or of any cp seed", i would still like to hear whether the author of the 1990 article gave any report on this topic. since you brought up this Gentlemen, gentlemen please!!!!! Lets keep this civilised! As far as I know, the original article (published in the 1990 Autumn UKCPS magazine) was by Stephen Morely (sp?)). As far as I can recall, the article dealt with the mechanics of setting such a system up and included a rather nice drawing. I don't think that the article dealt specifically with germination of a particular species, but dealt generally with keeping plants (such as Neps). If needs be, I can dig it out and provide a copy (presuming that the UKCPS don't mind) John Wilden Credibility BIT X38385 ################### From: panetti@execpc.com Mon Feb 11 05:23:29 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:20:20 -0600 Subject: Re: D. Cistiflora Mine is just waking up, however my D. Peltata- which should've remained dormant much longer- woke up a month ago! Dan Panetti S.E. Wisconsin Stephen Davis wrote: >Hi all, > >I just wanted to tell everyone that my Drosera cistifolia is in bud. >There's one large one, and a smaller developing one. > >Anyone else having theirs ready to bloom? > >Stephen W. Davis >www.eaglesroost.net >Email: stephend@direcpc.com > > > ################### From: Wim.Leys@vlm.be Mon Feb 11 05:31:36 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:31:33 +0100 Subject: Looking for David Melard and Jan Plasqui Dear List, I am looking for the current e-mail addresses of David Mellard and (De) Jan Plasqui. They were active on this list a few years ago. Can anyone help me ? Kind regards Wim ################### From: sundew@hotmail.com Mon Feb 11 07:36:07 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:11:08 -0500 Subject: D.villosa ascendens & light intensity I'd been having problems growing D.villosa ascendens for a while - plants stopped active growth and looked pretty sickly. I recently moved these plants about 4" further away from my lights and most of the plants are now growing again and look much better. I know that villosa ascendens definitely dislikes hot temperatures. There is a chance the increased distance resulted in a slightly lower temperature but, since it's now winter and temps are generally cool, I am thinking that villosa ascendens might not like intense light in cultivation? Anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks, SundewMatt ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Mon Feb 11 08:38:46 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:38:44 -0800 Subject: Re: New edition of Donald Schnell's book coming The good news: Schnell's 2nd edition of his book 'Carnivorous Plants of the United States and Canada' wasn't slated to be released until May, but it is available at amazon.com now. The bad news: amazon is currently selling the book at its full retail price: $39.95. The good news (for me): I just obtained a $25 amazon gift certificate, so I've placed an order for the book, and it will only cost me $15. Ron Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Mon Feb 11 09:41:44 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:40:46 -0500 Subject: Re: bad mistake ````````````````jocularity, jocularity, jocularity ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 12:28 AM > > Dear list, > > I was so angry that squirrels kill my favorite bug catcher that I take a gun > last night and shoot many hundred critter in park and every where. I write > from Kalamazoo sanitarium this moment. I warn don't take this action please. > Squirrel is good is good is good critter. I need someone from Kalamazoo to > water my cp please. > > In best spirit, > > Freedo. > > > > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Mon Feb 11 09:51:29 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:50:34 -0500 Subject: Re: New edition of Donald Schnell's book coming Is the book available now or are you paying in advance waiting for it to be published and shipped at the later date? ~ Mike ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 11:48 AM > > > > The good news: Schnell's 2nd edition of his book 'Carnivorous Plants of the > United States and Canada' wasn't slated to be released until May, but it is > available at amazon.com now. > > The bad news: amazon is currently selling the book at its full retail price: > $39.95. > > The good news (for me): I just obtained a $25 amazon gift certificate, so > I've placed an order for the book, and it will only cost me $15. > > Ron > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Mon Feb 11 10:00:24 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:00:22 -0800 Subject: Re: New edition of Donald Schnell's book coming >Is the book available now or are you paying in advance waiting for it to be >published and shipped at the later date? The book is available now. Amazon says they'll ship it within 6 to 8 days after the order is placed. Ron MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Mon Feb 11 10:32:45 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:32:37 EST Subject: Re: New edition of Donald Schnell's book coming I've had mine on order from amazon for about 6 weeks now. They stated then it was scheduled for april-may delivery. I haven't received notification from them it has shipped yet, but it would be cool if it did. I'd like to have it before the April field trip. Michael Catalani >Is the book available now or are you paying in advance waiting for it to be >published and shipped at the later date? <> [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Lordalgol@aol.com Mon Feb 11 11:43:03 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:42:49 EST Subject: plantlets on old ping leaves Hello! I'm new to Carnivorous plants, always admired them from afar you might say but lately they've become more locally available and I've been making a couple terrariums for different ones. I've read a lot of info from the web, Peter's Savage Garden book, and the book by the people from Peter Pauls. My question today is I recently purchased a couple Moraensis Pings which have one plantlet each coming out of each older leaf but there are no roots coming out of the bottom of those old leaves. There is plenty of new growth on the main plants but I'm wondering is it a good idea to remove the old leaves with plantlets (about 1/4" high with 2-3 leaves each) and put them in my germination case or should I leave them in their terrarium to grow on their own? Currently all plants are in 3" plastic containers with the planting media they were sold to me in, I'm afraid to do transplanting but i would eventually like to attach them to some mossy pieces of driftwood to make my terrariums more scenic and natural looking. Thanks for any help everyone! Josh Cook ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Mon Feb 11 11:48:19 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:48:15 EST Subject: re: Zones Kit, Thanks for that handy chart. I now know I am in zone 4b, though those lows are rare(even with wind chill). I did experience -27 F once (sraight up, not factoring the wind). My car would not start without help that morning. List: How deep do you need a little bog to be for S. purpurea and D. rotundifolia? About 18" or so? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: sundew@hotmail.com Mon Feb 11 12:45:41 2002 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:43:18 -0500 Subject: Drosera for waterlogged conditions? I am about to make a terrarium for plants which require extremely wet conditions. Anyone have any recommendations for Drosera which grow best soaking wet? My guess is the following would grow much better very wet: D.anglica, rotundifolia, intermedia, madagascariensis.... These have always grown slower for me than for friends who really soaked them. Any others? Thanks, SundewMatt ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Mon Feb 11 21:54:51 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:54:49 +1100 Subject: Re: Drosera for waterlogged conditions? Matt, I can only all to this D. spatulata, D. binata (any northern form). I've been growing a D. spatulata plant for about 6 months as an aquatic. It grows but I think they will grow much bigger with their leaves above the water. The plants here often are under water for 3 months or more at a time when they grow rosettes to 3" or more. Also some pygmy Drosera (pulchella, and nitidula) as well as D. burmannii and some of the petiolaris complex suffer long periods of submersion though I've never tried this. D. subtilis, D.indica, and D. banksii also like their soil waterloged but not submerged as far as I know. Regards Greg ################### From: John.Wilden@hmce.gsi.gov.uk Tue Feb 12 00:44:05 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:47:52 -0000 Subject: Experiments with parafin and tubers Just a quick note on the use of Parafin for storage of tubers. Richard Davion has been experimenting with Parafin for storage of both drosera tubers and pygmy Drosera gemmae. Reports from Richard so far on gemmae are also successful. Gemmae has been potted up every month. This has produced plants of different ages (1 month apart) all year. I'm not sure about flowering times but he had pygmies growing well in the summer time while others of the same species were dormant. If these species could be traded worldwide by this method, it could be very helpful Regards Greg Greg, Very interesting! Any ideas on how/why it works (exclusion of oxygen/water)? How does Richard get rid of the excess parafin from minute gemmae (I presume you need to do this before they will grow)? Has this been tried out with seeds (specifically nepenthes)? Regards John Wilden Southport Lancs UK ################### From: xfaberman@sprynet.com Tue Feb 12 06:22:06 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:22:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Ibicella lutea > Proboscidea lousianica is not the carnivorous one. The carnivorous > Devil's Claw is Ibicella Lutea, and it has yellow flowers, not pink. It would be wonderful if such large, beautifully flowered plants as Proboscidea or Ibicella were carnivorous, but unfortunately they are not. If one wants to grow a glandular hairy plant that traps lots of insects, but doesn't digest them, then Proboscidea is just as good as Ibicella. This is what the Carnivorous Plant FAQ has to say regarding Ibicella lutea: "I have grown this plant to flower a number of times, and while I could see insects being captured by the leaves I was not impressed. Furthermore, I have tested this plant for digestive enzymes using the simple film-emulsion test and have found absolutely no indication of enzyme production (article in Carnivorous Plant Newsletter, 28:2, 1999). In a nutshell, there is no good evidence that this is anything other than just another sticky plant." http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq5720.html Regards, Rufino Lake Worth, Florida ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Tue Feb 12 08:29:22 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:29:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Drosera for waterlogged conditions? >I am about to make a terrarium for plants which require extremely wet >conditions. Anyone have any recommendations for Drosera which grow best >soaking wet? My guess is the following would grow much better very wet: >D.anglica, rotundifolia, intermedia, madagascariensis.... >These have always grown slower for me than for friends who really soaked >them. >Any others? Hey Matt, At least in California, D. x obovata, like D. anglica prefers it really wet---it almost grows as an emergent like I've seen D. intermedia in the Jersey Pine Barrens. Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: joe@jmmsoftware.com Tue Feb 12 08:35:33 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:34:48 -0800 Subject: Re: Ibicella lutea > It would be wonderful if such large, beautifully flowered plants as > Proboscidea or Ibicella were carnivorous, but unfortunately they are > not. If one wants to grow a glandular hairy plant that traps lots of > insects, but doesn't digest them, then Proboscidea is just as good as > Ibicella. Some excerpts from "The Savage Garden": [Regarding Ibicella Lutea] "...An Italian botanist named E. Mameli...She proved it's carnivorous nature by feeding it egg whites and insects, noting how the food was dissolved and was absorbed by the plant." "There are also flat sessile glands that secrete the juices that dissolve the prey." -Joe ################### From: sfdzeqe0@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us Tue Feb 12 09:43:51 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:43:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Josh Cook, I'm not perfect, far from it, live and learn, but try cow manure, if your cp turns orange, try another more basic medium or expierament with a tablespoon of baking soda in one gallon of water. But the cow due seams to give my plant a lasting fertilizer. Cousin Clem ################### From: andreas@wistuba.com Tue Feb 12 09:56:48 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:56:55 +0100 Subject: AW: Experiments with parafin and tubers Hi Greg, Are there any papers on this, either on CPs or on the storage of any other plants? Bye Andreas ********************************* WISTUBA - Exotic Plants Mudauer Ring 227 68259 Mannheim Germany www.wistuba.com ********************************* -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com] Im Auftrag von Wilden, John {HQ Lpl, LIV BIT, LIV RBS North} Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. Februar 2002 09:53 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: Experiments with parafin and tubers Just a quick note on the use of Parafin for storage of tubers. Richard Davion has been experimenting with Parafin for storage of both drosera tubers and pygmy Drosera gemmae. Reports from Richard so far on gemmae are also successful. Gemmae has been potted up every month. This has produced plants of different ages (1 month apart) all year. I'm not sure about flowering times but he had pygmies growing well in the summer time while others of the same species were dormant. If these species could be traded worldwide by this method, it could be very helpful Regards Greg Greg, Very interesting! Any ideas on how/why it works (exclusion of oxygen/water)? How does Richard get rid of the excess parafin from minute gemmae (I presume you need to do this before they will grow)? Has this been tried out with seeds (specifically nepenthes)? Regards John Wilden Southport Lancs UK ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Tue Feb 12 10:37:08 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:37:06 -0800 Subject: Re: Word of caution about aquarium heaters >>The $100 heating mat you mentioned is the most expensive one Charley's has, but they also have other heating mats at cheaper prices. Here's another tip: the pet stores sell heating mats and thermostats, too In fact, there are various under-the-tank heating mats available at these places. They were originally intended to be used to heat reptile terrariums,but can be used in carnivorous plant setups as well. The mail order petstores have the cheapest price. Shop around, you'll be surprised by what you can find. >i mention the most expensive one because it is the one that is 2X4 feet, >and therefore the one that i would need for my 2x4 foot nepenthes tank. You've apparently did not research the heating mats very well. The heating mat size does not have to match the footprint of the tank, it can be much smaller. Likewise, you don't have use a 4-foot aquarium heater to heat a 4-foot tank. Heating mats in the size range of 9 x 18 inches or 11 x 17 inches were designed to heat 60-gallon tanks. You also made an statement in your article that the heating mats only work on seedling flats, and do not heat the air in enclosures. This is incorrect. Heating mats were designed to heat enclosures, which is particularly true for reptile terrariums. Just do a search on "reptile heating mats" from your favorite search engine. I've been successfully using heating mats for my CP tanks for a couple of years now. >it is good to know that these mats are available cheaper in your area I've bought my heating mats on the Internet. Again, I've found the best prices through mail order. >originally, when i was trying to find heating solutions for my tanks, the >electric heating mats i was able to find were only 10 x 20 inches, would >only heat to 70 degrees f, and had no thermostat. Heating mats have been available in a wide range of sizes for many years. Just do a search on "heating mats". Shop around, you'll be surprised by what you can find. Ron MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Tue Feb 12 11:35:37 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:35:35 -0800 Subject: Re: New edition of Donald Schnell's book com >I've had mine on order from amazon for about 6 weeks now. The stated then >it was scheduled for april-may delivery. I haven't received notification >from them it has shipped yet. Thanks for the note. The book is currently listed as being shipped within 5 to 7 days. It used to say 6 to 8 days. Also, amazon marked my shipment to be shipped in 12 days after I've ordered, which is in about another week. Someone also notified me that Schnell's new book is no longer listed at amazon, at least you can't find if you search for it. You can find it is you search for it by its ISBN number: 0881925403. The new book won't come up if you search for it by its title or author. Very strange. Ron MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Tue Feb 12 12:05:47 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:05:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: New edition of Donald Schnell's book com On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Ron . wrote: > Thanks for the note. The book is currently listed as being shipped within 5 > to 7 days. It used to say 6 to 8 days. Also, amazon marked my shipment to be > shipped in 12 days after I've ordered, which is in about another week. > Someone also notified me that Schnell's new book is no longer listed at > amazon, at least you can't find if you search for it. You can find it is you > search for it by its ISBN number: 0881925403. The new book won't come up if > you search for it by its title or author. Very strange. Amazon has managed to go from being an efficient system to one that makes lots of mistakes, particularly relating to forthcoming books. I've found the hard way that it pays NOT to pre-order from them, as virtually every pre-order I've done has fallen through the cracks when the book actually came out (imagine my chagrin to see a book on the shelf in the bookstore that Amazon is still telling me will be published sometime down the road). I think they probably realized their mistake about the Schnell book when people actually began ordering it, and of couse instead of notifying everyone they seem just to be letting us believe that it will be shipped immediately. The Timber Press site says the book is to be published in May, and they're the publisher so presumably they should know. I've never heard of a book of this sort that actually was released ahead of schedule, expecially that far ahead. BTW, I used Amazon.com almost from the day it started, but have switched to Barnes and Noble....FWIW Sean Barry ################### From: moper@libero.it Tue Feb 12 12:58:09 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:58:05 +0100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Cooled_Terrarium?= Hi all, I put on the Net a description of a cooled terrarium using Peltier cell: http://digilander.iol.it/westaustralia/terrarium/t-cooled.htm Hoping this may help who has hi-temps problem. Cheers. C.Perrucci -Genova,Italy- ################### From: jfh@gofree.indigo.ie Tue Feb 12 13:09:36 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:04:25 +0000 Subject: which is the Venus Fly Trap seedling Hi I'm growing venus fly traps for the first time, from seed. I have two seedlings about 2.5 inches tall. Although they look similar, there are differences. The leaves of one plant form in pairs so they extend from the stem at the exact same point (height). However, the leaves of the other plant form one at a time, so they extend from the stem at different points (heights). The leaves themselves look similar, broad and diamond shape, but are not identical. Which if any is the Venus Fly Trap (Dionaea Muscipula) seedling? Thanks, John ################### From: stephend@direcpc.com Tue Feb 12 14:19:44 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:18:03 -0800 Subject: Re: which is the Venus Fly Trap seedling I'm not sure you are looking at VFT's. My VFT came up and showed traps when it was no bigger than a dime. It was a mature plant before it ever reached 2.5 inches tall. stephen At 01:10 PM 2/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Hi >I'm growing venus fly traps for the first time, from seed. I have two >seedlings about 2.5 inches tall. Although they look similar, there are >differences. The leaves of one plant form in pairs so they extend from the >stem at the exact same point (height). However, the leaves of the other >plant form one at a time, so they extend from the stem at different points >(heights). The leaves themselves look similar, broad and diamond shape, but >are not identical. Which if any is the Venus Fly Trap (Dionaea Muscipula) >seedling? > >Thanks, >John Stephen W. Davis www.carnivorousplants.homestead.com Email: stephend@direcpc.com ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Tue Feb 12 16:10:04 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:10:02 -0800 Subject: A Cheap Self-Watering Nepenthes Tank >it is interesting to hear of this 1990 article from the british journal. >who is the author? The author is Stephen Morley, and the title of his article is "A Cheap Self-Watering Nepenthes Tank". >it is a little bit hard for me to anticipate how the capillary matting >would be beneficial if the claim is that tanks set up in this way lose >water too quickly even with regular watering. The author describes a setup that is airtight, so there is no water loss at all, and in fact, it is self-watering. The capillary mat is the key component for self-watering of the plants. An aquarium heater is placed in two inches (minimum) of water at the bottom of the tank. The plants are in pots on capillary matting on a platform a few inches above the water. The article includes a diagram, which is remarkably similar to the one in your CPN article, except for the capillary matting The water condenses on the top and drips down on the plants and onto capillary mat, keeping the mat permanently wet. Optionally, the mat may also be dipped into the water below. The bottom of each pot has spaghnum moss sticking out, which acts as wicks to soak up the water from the capillary mat. The author recommends regular spraying with a fungicide, as fungi thrive in these wet conditions. He has the usual lights on top on a timer, and with sides covered on the outside with tinfoil-lined cardboard to act as light reflectors. Bubble wrap may also be used for additional insulation. The author claims you never have to add water with this setup. Ron ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Tue Feb 12 16:34:08 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:33:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Word of caution about aquarium heaters Well I sleep on the water bed, and when I wake up I drag the water mat heater from under the King size bed, the water bed heating pad works fine for many cp as a heating pad. When the sun goes down and lights go off I simply heave the mat back under the water bed. The plants enjoy the cooler nights without heat as do the seedlings. Its just that simple, and a water bed heating element is much cheaper than a reptile heating mat or a Charleys Greenhouse supply heating mat plus it covers a larger area. True you have to go the extra mile to use one for both bed & plants but hey its all worth it. Sometimes when I am tired I just move the plants and sleep on the mat with them we all get the good bottom heat. ~Mike St. Petersburg Florida ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 1:37 PM > > > > >>The > $100 heating mat you mentioned is the most expensive one Charley's has, but > they also have other heating mats at cheaper prices. Here's another tip: > the pet stores sell heating mats and thermostats, too > In fact, there are various under-the-tank heating mats available at these > places. They were originally intended to be used to heat reptile > terrariums,but can be used in carnivorous plant setups as well. The mail > order petstores have the cheapest price. Shop around, you'll be surprised > by what you can find. > > >i mention the most expensive one because it is the one that is 2X4 feet, > >and therefore the one that i would need for my 2x4 foot nepenthes tank. > > You've apparently did not research the heating mats very well. The heating > mat size does not have to match the footprint of the tank, it can be much > smaller. Likewise, you don't have use a 4-foot aquarium heater to heat a > 4-foot tank. Heating mats in the size range of 9 x 18 inches or 11 x 17 > inches were designed to heat 60-gallon tanks. You also made an statement in > your article that the heating mats only work on seedling flats, and do not > heat the air in enclosures. This is incorrect. Heating mats were designed > to heat enclosures, which is particularly true for reptile terrariums. Just > do a search on "reptile heating mats" from your favorite search engine. > I've been successfully using heating mats for my CP tanks for a couple of > years now. > > >it is good to know that these mats are available cheaper in your area > > I've bought my heating mats on the Internet. Again, I've found the best > prices through mail order. > > >originally, when i was trying to find heating solutions for my tanks, the > >electric heating mats i was able to find were only 10 x 20 inches, would > >only heat to 70 degrees f, and had no thermostat. > > Heating mats have been available in a wide range of sizes for many years. > Just do a search on "heating mats". Shop around, you'll be surprised by what > you can find. > > Ron > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Tue Feb 12 16:37:57 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:37:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Josh Cook, Cow Manure,... Randy you and the damn cow manure. ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 12:49 PM > > I'm not perfect, far from it, live and learn, but try cow manure, if your > cp turns orange, try another more basic medium or expierament with a > tablespoon of baking soda in one gallon of water. But the cow due seams to > give my plant a lasting fertilizer. > Cousin Clem > ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Tue Feb 12 16:39:27 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:38:31 -0500 Subject: Re: New edition of Donald Schnell's book com I called Timber Press today,.... the book hasn't been published yet Mike St. Petersburg Fl ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 3:13 PM > > On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Ron . wrote: > > > Thanks for the note. The book is currently listed as being shipped within 5 > > to 7 days. It used to say 6 to 8 days. Also, amazon marked my shipment to be > > shipped in 12 days after I've ordered, which is in about another week. > > Someone also notified me that Schnell's new book is no longer listed at > > amazon, at least you can't find if you search for it. You can find it is you > > search for it by its ISBN number: 0881925403. The new book won't come up if > > you search for it by its title or author. Very strange. > > Amazon has managed to go from being an efficient system to one that makes > lots of mistakes, particularly relating to forthcoming books. I've found > the hard way that it pays NOT to pre-order from them, as virtually every > pre-order I've done has fallen through the cracks when the book actually > came out (imagine my chagrin to see a book on the shelf in the bookstore > that Amazon is still telling me will be published sometime down the road). > I think they probably realized their mistake about the Schnell book when > people actually began ordering it, and of couse instead of notifying > everyone they seem just to be letting us believe that it will be shipped > immediately. The Timber Press site says the book is to be published in > May, and they're the publisher so presumably they should know. I've never > heard of a book of this sort that actually was released ahead of schedule, > expecially that far ahead. BTW, I used Amazon.com almost from the day it > started, but have switched to Barnes and Noble....FWIW > > Sean Barry > > ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Tue Feb 12 16:46:22 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:45:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Cooled Terrarium Very nice job C. Perrruci. A detailed web site with good information with a great cooling method for smaller tanks. Mike St. Petersburg Fl ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 4:01 PM > > Hi all, > I put on the Net a description of a cooled terrarium using Peltier cell: > > http://digilander.iol.it/westaustralia/terrarium/t-cooled.htm > > > Hoping this may help who has hi-temps problem. > > > Cheers. > > C.Perrucci -Genova,Italy- ################### From: jgbritt@mac.com Tue Feb 12 19:14:15 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:14:01 -0800 Subject: RE: which is the Venus Fly Trap seedling >I'm growing venus fly traps for the first time, from seed. I have two >seedlings about 2.5 inches tall. Although they look similar, there are >differences. The leaves of one plant form in pairs so they extend from the >stem at the exact same point (height). However, the leaves of the other >plant form one at a time, so they extend from the stem at different points >(heights). The leaves themselves look similar, broad and diamond shape, but >are not identical. Which if any is the Venus Fly Trap (Dionaea Muscipula) >seedling? Neither are VFT's. There are pictures of VFT seedlings on the International Carnivorous Plant Society web site at: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/seedgermguide.htm http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/species/Dionaea.htm ################### From: dionea3@yahoo.com Tue Feb 12 20:30:58 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:30:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Simple VFT tc media? I have heard of a simple Tissue Culture media for Dionaea: (Miracid fertilizer, sucrose, and agar). Any thoughts? What concentration, dilution, would one use for the fertilizer and sucrose? Brad Ventura California Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Tue Feb 12 21:42:43 2002 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:41:58 -0500 Subject: D. intermedia "Cuba" Howdy, y'all: I have a friend who wants to control a very small millipede infestation with carnivorous plants. I'm dubious, but considering he only sees a millipede once or twice a week it might work, and I'm always happy to start more people growing carnivorous plants. I'm thinking D. intermedia "Cuba" might be good, maybe capensis too. The infestation is in a palm pot with potting soil, so A: I was thinking the shallow roots of D. intermedia would work in a layer of peat/sand on top of the potting soil better than capensis. B: I was also thinking it would give me a chance to see if D. intermedia is actually weedy enough to grow in regular soil. Unfortunately, he wants the plants now so I can't just give him some seed. So, my questions are: Any comments on the above? Does anyone have these plants cheap by the dozen (intermedia) or half-dozen (capensis)? Thanks, -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: jblakeh1@swbell.net Tue Feb 12 22:43:37 2002 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:43:25 -0600 Subject: Amazon Once your virtual timer runs out, they'll tell you it's been delayed and start all over. Their customer service tends to be either (a) canned response or (b) rude human. I don't use them if I have a choice. > Thanks for the note. The book is currently listed as being shipped within 5 > to 7 days. It used to say 6 to 8 days. ################### From: John.Wilden@hmce.gsi.gov.uk Wed Feb 13 01:31:10 2002 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:34:52 -0000 Subject: cow..........sh*t if your cp turns orange, try another more basic medium or expierament with a tablespoon of baking soda in one gallon of water. Clem/Randall, Are you the president of a cow manure marketing company? If not, perhaps you should start one up!!!! Your persistance has led me to consider doing a trial of my own to see if it does actually work (although I'll be knocking on your door if the VFT croaks!!!!!). However I have to say that I'm a bit puzzled by the advice above. What is baking soda? Is it an alkaline substance (if so, its hardly likely to do your VFT much good)? What is it supposed to do? As for CP's turning orange, personally I'd love to know how to achieve this. Just imagine the sales pitch "be the first to own an ORANGE Venus Fly Trap.... be the envy of the 'Red Dragon' patent holders...... etc" John "sorry, but it feels like Monday morning....again" Wilden Southport Lancs UK ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Wed Feb 13 05:26:48 2002 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:18:30 -0500 Subject: RE: D. intermedia "Cuba" Hey Kit! Millipedes are generally considered "good guys". They are usually predatory and often eat things like fungus-gnats, shore-flies and no-see-ums. I have a non-functional ebb and flow bench that I move my Nepenthes cuttings to after they have rooted under mist. I always find millipedes under the pots when I move them around, they have never done any damage to the plants. I also have never seen any millipedes caught on my Drosera. I do find them in a Nep pitcher occasionally. Anyway, If you don't have any luck finding your sundews, contact me off list. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Kit Halsted Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 12:48 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Howdy, y'all: I have a friend who wants to control a very small millipede infestation with carnivorous plants. I'm dubious, but considering he only sees a millipede once or twice a week it might work, and I'm always happy to start more people growing carnivorous plants. I'm thinking D. intermedia "Cuba" might be good, maybe capensis too. The infestation is in a palm pot with potting soil, so A: I was thinking the shallow roots of D. intermedia would work in a layer of peat/sand on top of the potting soil better than capensis. B: I was also thinking it would give me a chance to see if D. intermedia is actually weedy enough to grow in regular soil. Unfortunately, he wants the plants now so I can't just give him some seed. So, my questions are: Any comments on the above? Does anyone have these plants cheap by the dozen (intermedia) or half-dozen (capensis)? Thanks, -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Wed Feb 13 07:14:04 2002 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:13:54 EST Subject: Re: which is the Venus Fly Trap seedling In a message dated 2/12/2002 9:20:56 PM Central Standard Time, jgbritt@mac.com writes: > >I'm growing venus fly traps for the first time, from seed. I have two > >seedlings about 2.5 inches tall. Although they look similar, there are > >differences. The leaves of one plant form in pairs so they extend from the > >stem at the exact same point (height). However, the leaves of the other > >plant form one at a time, so they extend from the stem at different points > >(heights). The leaves themselves look similar, broad and diamond shape, but > >are not identical. Which if any is the Venus Fly Trap (Dionaea Muscipula) > >seedling? > Like John said, neither one is a vft. Vft's produce 2 (usually) cotyledon leaves, which do not have traps. Afterwards, each leaf will produce a trap. The entire plant at this time will be smaller than your pinky fingernail, and will take several years to reach a few inches in diameter. The small traps do work. No, they wont snap shut in an instant, but the plant does catch quite a bit of very small prey with these traps. VFT seeds are relatively easy to germinate, with a good percentage sprouting between 6-8 weeks after planting. I find that they do not need any stratification. Michael Catalani [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Wed Feb 13 08:38:11 2002 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:38:56 +0100 Subject: Re: Ibicella lutea Dear Joe & al., > Some excerpts from "The Savage Garden": This was published before the decisive experiments (cited in the cp FAQ) have been performed. > "...An Italian botanist named E. Mameli...She proved This was in 1916 (i.e. at a very early stage of biochemistry, even in a modern country like Italy). > it's carnivorous nature by feeding it egg whites and insects, noting how the > food was dissolved She noted a change in the transparence of the egg white (a phenomenon that can be induced by incubation with a wide range of reagents, some of which are present in "ordinary" plant secretions that have nothing to do with digestion), and she noted that numerous insects were captured. Nothing was really dissolved. > and was absorbed by the plant." Specifically this point has not been investigated then. It also would have been difficult at that time, as tracer studies have been developed much later for biological purposes (NB: first 14C labeled metabolites became available for physiological studies in the 1950s). > "There are also flat sessile glands that secrete the juices that > dissolve the > prey." Yes, in _Pinguicula_ and other true cps, but I am not aware of any such glands and juices in _Ibicella_. Based on own research and on published evidence, I would assume _Ibicella_ is not able to digest animal prey. It is indeed able to capture and kill substantial amounts of insects, but this has IMHO nothing to do with an obvious, direct nutritional benefit. Indirect mechanisms (cf. _Roridula_) cannot be ruled out so far. The systematic context (Martyniaceae are in the same order with Lentibulariaceae and Byblidaceae) may induce intriguing speculations, but scientific honesty requires these to be declared as such at the moment. Kind regards Jan ################### From: erccmacfitheal@yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 12:24:48 2002 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:24:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: D. intermedia "Cuba" > Millipedes are generally considered "good guys". They are usually predatory and often eat things like fungus-gnats, shore-flies and no-see-ums. I have a non-functional ebb and flow bench that I move my Nepenthes cuttings to after they have rooted under mist. I always find millipedes under the pots when I move them around, they have never done any damage to the plants. I also have never seen any millipedes caught on my Drosera. I do find them in a Nep pitcher occasionally. It's my understanding that millipedes are actually decomposers, feeding on dead plant material. What you describe sounds more like what I would expect from centipedes. Which still makes them good guys. I would imagine that they end up in pitcher plants as a result of going after other decomposing stuff that's already in there. Nathan Miller Newberg, Oregon Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Wed Feb 13 15:25:58 2002 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:37:51 -0500 Subject: RE: D. intermedia "Cuba" At 5:29 AM -0800 2/13/02, Steve LaWarre wrote: >Hey Kit! Hey Steve! > Millipedes are generally considered "good guys". They are >usually predatory and often eat things like fungus-gnats, >shore-flies and no-see-ums. >I have a non-functional ebb and flow bench that I move my Nepenthes >cuttings to after they have rooted under mist. I always find >millipedes under the pots when I move them around, they have never >done any damage to the plants. I thought centipedes were the predators & millipedes were root-eaters? >I also have never seen any millipedes caught on my Drosera. I do >find them in a Nep pitcher occasionally. Now that you mention it, I never saw any millipedes on the Drosera when I had a yard. The VFTs got 'em on occasion. But what I was envisioning was enough D. intermedia to carpet most of the surface area, sort of carnivorous ground cover. >Anyway, If you don't have any luck finding your sundews, contact me off list. Thanks. -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: xfaberman@sprynet.com Wed Feb 13 16:12:29 2002 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:11:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Ibicella lutea The research by E. Mameli is often quoted as evidence of carnivory in Ibicella lutea. However, E. Mameli's research took place in the early part of this century (1915) and, as far as I can tell, modern researchers have been unable to duplicate her results. See, as an example, Barry Rice-Meyers "Testing the Appetites of Ibicella and Drosophyllum." It appears in its entirety at: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/samples/Science282testing.htm Regards, Rufino Lake Worth, Florida ################### From: willows@rose.net Wed Feb 13 17:11:56 2002 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:13:29 -0500 Subject: Tissue culture Those interested in tissue culture might be interested in this URL: http://www.une.edu.au/~agronomy/AgSSrHortTCinfo.html James A. Rollins SW Georgia, USA [mailto:willows@rose.net] ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Wed Feb 13 20:23:35 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 04:23:33 +0000 Subject: warning about aquarium heaters ron, your point about changing the thread heading is fair enough. i wasn't trying to conceal your view, i'm simply lazy (i rarely capitalize for the same reason). but point well taken, i apologize. i am genuinely glad (in a sense; not because i desire that anyone's plants or homes be damaged) to hear that it is possible for the water to evaporate much faster than anything i have experienced. i definitely do not want anyone to have a bad experience with aquarium heaters, so i hope anyone trying this method will heed ron's experience as a warning to make sure that the water isn't disappearing too fast. one thing that may not be clear from my article is that the three inch depth of water in the reservoir is a minimum safe level, there is no reason why one cannot keep it deeper if rapid evaporation is a problem. (although obviously in some cases the neps might be too tall to allow for a deeper reservoir.) a final note about this method is that if you are using it to grow nepenthes, i do believe it is important to use a very tight lid, and not for reasons having to do with evaporation. since you are using an aquarium heater to heat water *with the ultimate goal of heating the air in the tank*, the tighter the lid, the more effectively the water will be able to transfer heat to the air. especially when there is a significant difference between the room air temp and the desired tank air temp, i believe that a tight cover is very important. thanks john wilden and ron for delivering the info about morley's article. i am glad to hear the details. now just a bit more of the overheated back and forth: >You've apparently did not research the heating mats very well. The heating >mat size does not have to match the footprint of the tank, it can be much >smaller. . Heating mats in the size range of 9 x 18 inches or 11 x 17 >inches were designed to heat 60-gallon tanks. if this is true then mea culpa. i visited hydroponics stores at the time and i was told they'd heat only to 70 degrees. certainly it was my *assumption* that a 2x4 foot mat is what one would need for a 2x4 foot tank, but it is hard for me to imagine what a 2x4 foot mat is designed for if not to heat a 2x4 foot area. an 8x4 foot tank? since most (non-cp) gardeners don't keep their plants in aquaria, it seemed reasonable to me to deny that these mats were designed to heat enclosures (what they are designed for and what they can do are seperate issues: aquarium heaters weren't designed to keep one's nepenthes warm, but they will). maybe the issue is that reptile mats are designed differently (than those for regular horticultural uses) since they are for enclosures, but see below. You also made an statement in >your article that the heating mats only work on seedling flats, and do not >heat the air in enclosures. This is incorrect. Heating mats were designed >to heat enclosures, which is particularly true for reptile terrariums. Just >do a search on "reptile heating mats" from your favorite search engine. i really wish you wouldn't misquote me; i never said they only work on seed flats, nor did i say that they wouldn't heat the air in enclosures. i'm happy to admit that i know nothing about reptile heating mats. the pet stores that i visited at the time only had those heating light bulbs. i didn't do any internet searches because i didn't use the internet at that time, and once again, i haven't done any recently because i'm not in the market for heating solutions. perhaps identical mats are packaged under different labels for the reptile and horticulture markets, or maybe not (i have no idea.) thank you for the correction. ---mike ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Wed Feb 13 22:44:34 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:44:30 +1100 Subject: Re: Parafin Greetings all, I'm not going to be much help here but I'll give Richard a call to ask the question. No, Nepenthes seed has not been tried but it should work. I'm not sure how to wash the wax from the gemmae, it was bloody hard to get off the tubers. I wiped as much as possible off with a tissue. This would be quite hard to do with gemmae. I guess the low temperature helped keep the tubers and gemmae dormant and the lack of oxygen prevents fungal growth. Richard did lose a few tubers though. Not sure if there is a paper on this or why Richard tried it to start with but I'll let you know soon Regards Greg MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: insecttrap@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 06:19:19 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:19:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Parafin Greg, Was the block type parafin used or the form in a paper(parafilm). Would parafilm be easier to use and is it more widely available? Also, an idea: Maybe putting the gemmae or tubers in wax paper first, then layering with parafilm or parafin may yield comparable results and enabling a less difficult removal of the plants? Michael Manna >From: "Greg Bourke" >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: Re: Parafin >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:54:23 -0800 (PST) > >Greetings all, > >I'm not going to be much help here but I'll give Richard a call to ask the >question. >No, Nepenthes seed has not been tried but it should work. >I'm not sure how to wash the wax from the gemmae, it was bloody hard to get >off the tubers. I wiped as much as possible off with a tissue. This would >be >quite hard to do with gemmae. >I guess the low temperature helped keep the tubers and gemmae dormant and >the lack of oxygen prevents fungal growth. Richard did lose a few tubers >though. >Not sure if there is a paper on this or why Richard tried it to start with >but I'll let you know soon > >Regards >Greg > >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: prometheus4242@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 06:40:17 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:40:15 -0500 Subject: Drosera neocalidonica Hello all, I will shortly be recieving this species and was hoping to get some information on it. I have gotten a little advice from a few people (thanks Matt, Sean and everyone else.) but I'd like any extra I can get. My biggest issue is: What sub-section of Drosera is this species classified as? I have been told it belongs to the tropicals the petiolaris complex and the spathulata complex. I would love to hear cultivation information from anyone who has experience with this species. Thanks in advance Travis ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Thu Feb 14 07:32:35 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:24:09 -0500 Subject: U. violacea I received seed of this species from the seed bank. From the images on the database, I assume its aquatic. Can anyone give me advice on starting aquatic Utric. seed? Thanks, Steve ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 07:51:29 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:51:27 -0800 Subject: Re: Drosera neocalidonica I grow mine on a windowsill on an east-facing window. It is doing very well. The temperature drops to about 55 degrees F this winter doesn't seem to have any adverse effects on it. It is in a small pot in relatively low humidity conditions, though I do keep it well watered. Ron Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: cteichreb@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 08:12:37 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:12:35 -0800 Subject: Re: D. intermedia "Cuba" Hi Kit, > >I have a friend who wants to control a very small millipede >infestation with carnivorous plants. I'm dubious, but considering he >only sees a millipede once or twice a week it might work, and I'm >always happy to start more people growing carnivorous plants. I'm >thinking D. intermedia "Cuba" might be good, maybe capensis too. The >infestation is in a palm pot with potting soil, so First, as people mentioned, you need to figure out if these are millipedes or centipedes. Either way, I guess your friend doesn't want them running around their house! Millipedes are generally more 'round' and tend to curl up in a ball when disturbed. Centipedes are much flatter and tend to burrow into the soil when disturbed. > >A: I was thinking the shallow roots of D. intermedia would work in a >layer of peat/sand on top of the potting soil better than capensis. I would suggest putting them in a non-draining pot in the top of the soil. > >B: I was also thinking it would give me a chance to see if D. >intermedia is actually weedy enough to grow in regular soil. Doubtful. I've had capensis spring up in potting soil, but it definitely did not do well. A lot depends on how much your friend waters and fertilizes the palm. In general, the growing requirements of palms are quite different from cp's (light, water, fertilizer, soil, etc.) so, as I said above, I would at least pot up any cp in a separate, non-draining container that can be hidden in the soil of the palm. > >Unfortunately, he wants the plants now so I can't just give him some >seed. So, my questions are: > >Any comments on the above? My other comment is that it's doubtful that either species will do an effective job of controlling millipedes or centipedes. I would suggest setting up a pitfall trap of some sort instead (a baby food jar will work well). The centipedes or millipedes fall in, and can't crawl back out. I'm sure there's some sort of bait you could use too. I know the trap is quite boring compared to the cp's, but as many many people have emphasized, cp's tend not to be useful at controlling insect/invertebrate infestations. Good luck! Chris -- Chris Teichreb http://www.geocities.com/VCPC2000 (Vancouver Carnivorous Plant Club) MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: disaguy@pacbell.net Thu Feb 14 08:13:30 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:14:01 -0800 Subject: Silica or "sharp" sand Hi List, I have been searching unsuccessfully for a supply of Silica or "sharp" sand in the San Francisco, California area. All I keep finding is various forms of river or beach sand and all have either or both carbonate and salt contaminants. Does anyone know of a source within a two hour drive from S.F. and if so, could you please share the details with me. Thanks and cheers, Mike ################### From: weststar59@yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 09:20:23 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:20:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: byblis seedlings I have some byblis seedlings about 1/2 inch hi. One has new growth on it, but no dew, the rest have new growth and dew, is this a fungus problem, or is normal for byblis? they are in a terarium, 14 hr photoperiod, in a 3:1 sand peat mix and are wet but not waterlogged. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Gene Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: sfdzeqe0@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us Thu Feb 14 09:28:41 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:28:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cook doesn't think so, Monday mornings, When we are talking cow dew we are talking gergatated plants back into a more natural compound state. Haven't had a plant around for more than a year to see lasting effects but I have brought a slimmy green VFT back from sure death by putting a little in the traps. The 2 flats of traps of my first epieriance was sold at the USF Spring Sale ~ and the one that I had was cut off above the ground by a cut bug. But I'm continuing my expierment with some mature plants that I have just order from Peter Paul. Cousin Clem ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Thu Feb 14 09:35:02 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:31:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Silica or "sharp" sand At 8:15 AM -0800 2/14/02, Michael Gallagher wrote: >Hi List, > >I have been searching unsuccessfully for a supply of Silica or "sharp" sand >in the San Francisco, California area. All I keep finding is various forms >of river or beach sand and all have either or both carbonate and salt >contaminants. > >Does anyone know of a source within a two hour drive from S.F. and if so, >could you please share the details with me. Hi Michael: I've had no luck finding anything claiming to be pure silica sand in NYC, unless I want to order a truckload of it. What I have found is Quikrete Play Sand at the local Home Depot. It's not quite pure*, but it is washed & a lot closer to pure silica than anything else I've found, &, most importantly, my plants do well in it. HTH, -Kit * "Not quite pure" meaning, among other things, that the clams growing in my Utricularia intermedia bowl last year must have come from somewhere. -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Feb 14 09:35:17 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:36:06 +0100 Subject: Re: Drosera neocaledonica Dear Travis, cf. Robert Gibson (2001) _Drosera neocaledonica_: Its origins, habitat, and cultivation. CPN 30(2):37-42. > My biggest issue is: What sub-section of Drosera is this species classified > as? _Drosera_ sect. _Drosera_ (no subsection recognized so far). > I have been told it belongs to the tropicals It depends on your definition of "tropicals". _D. neocaledonica_ is tropical but sect. _Drosera_ is the most widespread section in the genus and it contains numerous extratropical species. > the petiolaris complex Certainly not (2n=12, sometimes 13-14, rarely 19). It (2n=40) is more closely related to: > the spathulata complex. While _D. spatulata_ (2n=20, 40, 50, 60) is the most common and widespread species (or species complex) of sect. _Drosera_ in Australasia, _D. neocaledonica_ is clearly distinct and has probably been isolated for a long period of time. Kind regards Jan ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Thu Feb 14 09:50:58 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:43:16 -0800 Subject: Re: Devil's Claw/ Hunt for El Chupa Cabra >It would be wonderful if such large, beautifully flowered plants as Proboscidea or Ibicella were carnivorous, but unfortunately they are not. If one wants to grow a glandular hairy plant that traps lots of insects, but doesn't digest them, then Proboscidea is just as good as Ibicella... Regards, Rufino >Some excerpts from "The Savage Garden": [Regarding Ibicella Lutea] "...An Italian botanist named E. Mameli...She proved it's carnivorous nature by feeding it egg whites and insects, noting how the food was dissolved and was absorbed by the plant." "There are also flat sessile glands that secrete the juices that dissolve the prey." -Joe Hi Tom, Rufino, Joe, and all, I have seen those sessile glands in action, but I think it's just a defensive tactic. Still, the plants are interesting for CPers to study. Jan Schlauer and myself consider the plant a representiative "proto-carnivore", and may have an ancestral link to butterworts. The plant goes right along with CP because as it is reponsible for many cattle mutilations and is the basis for tales of El Chupa Cabra. Also the plant is of interest in it's importance to the American Indians as food and in basket weaving. Besides all that, it is a pretty plant and I look forward to another crop this year. Proboscidea is native to S. California and I'm thinking a field trip by the Los Angeles CP Society to hunt for El Chupa Cabra might be fun. You can find more info on Devil's Claw and order seed from Native Seeds/SEARCH at: www.nativeseeds.org/ Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Thu Feb 14 10:13:18 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:12:18 -0500 Subject: shipping plants from USA to Canada Hello all, Can some please let me know what is required for shipping plants from the USA to Canada? I bet its a big hassle. Thankyou, Mike St. Petersburg Florida ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Thu Feb 14 10:24:05 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:24:26 -0600 Subject: Re: Silica or "sharp" sand Michael, Have you tried the sandblasting supply outlets? I found a 70# sack of pure silica at my local lumberyard. It may be a little finer than you need but if you can find a place that mixes concrete, mortar, etc., they may have different grades. The only drawback for me was topping the pygmy pots with 1/4" or so to more easily control algae. The gemmae couldn't force their roots thru it to the mix below. I'm now using 1/2 coconut fiber with 1/2 good acidic peat. No out of control algae (at least) and the young pygmies have really made a comeback. Hope this helps. At least it may open up another avenue to search. Goes without saying....YMMV. Have a good one. Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 10:15 AM > > Hi List, > > I have been searching unsuccessfully for a supply of Silica or "sharp" sand > in the San Francisco, California area. All I keep finding is various forms > of river or beach sand and all have either or both carbonate and salt > contaminants. > > Does anyone know of a source within a two hour drive from S.F. and if so, > could you please share the details with me. > > Thanks and cheers, > > Mike > > > ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Thu Feb 14 10:46:38 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:45:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Cook doesn't think so, Randy, oh no now you've done it... Peter Pauls. ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:36 PM > > Monday mornings, > When we are talking cow dew we are talking gergatated plants back > into a more natural compound state. Haven't had a plant around for more > than a year to see lasting effects but I have brought a slimmy green VFT > back from sure death by putting a little in the traps. The 2 flats of > traps of my first epieriance was sold at the USF Spring Sale ~ and the one > that I had was cut off above the ground by a cut bug. But I'm continuing > my expierment with some mature plants that I have just order from Peter > Paul. > Cousin Clem > ################### From: delenati@yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 11:44:30 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:44:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Test Hi Have tried to post in the past with no success so please ignore this if it gets through. Thanks Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: venusflytrap@bushinternet.com Thu Feb 14 12:40:00 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:31:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Aquarium heater obsession Isn`t the ongoing chat about aquarium heaters just getting that little bit too obsessive ? Regards David Ahrens London ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Thu Feb 14 12:55:52 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:55:32 EST Subject: Re: Cook doesn't think so, Not...Peter Pauls? ################### From: sileshar@yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 13:09:28 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:09:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nepenthes alata "red" Hey all, I'm thinking of getting an 8" hanging basket of N. alata. I've seen them alongside N. X coccineas. They have nice red pitchers, but I'd prefer to get it as a houseplant rather than as one that needed greenhouse con- ditions. Having read that N. alatas come from a wide range in elevations, is there any way to tell on sight whether it's a highland or lowland plant? Can thickness of leaves or shape of pitchers tell me anything? Thanks for any input. Grow well, Hans Doylestown, PA Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Thu Feb 14 13:26:15 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:25:56 EST Subject: Re: Nepenthes alata "red" Hans, If these alata are being sold by the same people who sell the coccinea, they should be lowland to intermediate, and it should grow side-by-side to a coccinea if you have one. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Thu Feb 14 13:46:38 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:46:07 EST Subject: Re: D. intermedia "Cuba" Why not just repot the plant and change the soil? If the millipedes aren't that many, you can always just pick them up and put them outside. To me, that would be the easiest thing to do! :) Hope this helps! Owen S. The CP Bog www.spacetowns.com/cpbog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Thu Feb 14 14:31:56 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:31:29 -0500 Subject: RE: Re: Silica or "sharp" sand Michael-- Kellogg, at one time, packaged sharp silica sand and I bought a 1/2 cubic foot of it from a nursery on Clement St. (formerly the Clement Street Nursery, now the Garden Hound) about four years ago. I've since gone back and have noticed they no longer sell it. You might want to call them to see if they can order it for you. Again, the brand name is Kellogg and it was simply labeled Horticultural Sand, but was white, coarse and sharp like granular quartz. Having said that, I've switched to what is being commonly sold now--the stuff that looks like Ocean Beach sand (very dirty, but supposedly washed) and have noticed absolutely no difference in the way my plants grow. What I preferred about the Kellogg sand, however, was that it was much lighter and made for a more open mix. Gary Kong Kit Halsted wrote: > >At 8:15 AM -0800 2/14/02, Michael Gallagher wrote: >>Hi List, >> >>I have been searching unsuccessfully for a supply of Silica or "sharp" sand >>in the San Francisco, California area. All I keep finding is various forms >>of river or beach sand and all have either or both carbonate and salt >>contaminants. >> >>Does anyone know of a source within a two hour drive from S.F. and if so, >>could you please share the details with me. > >Hi Michael: > >I've had no luck finding anything claiming to be pure silica sand in >NYC, unless I want to order a truckload of it. What I have found is >Quikrete Play Sand at the local Home Depot. It's not quite pure*, but >it is washed & a lot closer to pure silica than anything else I've >found, &, most importantly, my plants do well in it. > >HTH, >-Kit > >* "Not quite pure" meaning, among other things, that the clams >growing in my Utricularia intermedia bowl last year must have come >from somewhere. >-- >"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary >safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." >-Benjamin Franklin > >"...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" >(...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) >-Flavius Vegetius Renatus > -- "Have a rich life and Haiku will come." --Mamako Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: chuckr@vmware.com Thu Feb 14 15:06:40 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:06:37 -0800 Subject: Re: Re: Silica or "sharp" sand On Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 02:34:54PM -0800, Gary Kong wrote: > > Michael-- > > Kellogg, at one time, packaged sharp silica sand and I bought a 1/2 cubic > foot of it from a nursery on Clement St. (formerly the Clement Street > Nursery, now the Garden Hound) about four years ago. I've since gone back > and have noticed they no longer sell it. You might want to call them to see > if they can order it for you. Again, the brand name is Kellogg and it was > simply labeled Horticultural Sand, but was white, coarse and sharp like > granular quartz. Having said that, I've switched to what is being commonly > sold now--the stuff that looks like Ocean Beach sand (very dirty, but > supposedly washed) and have noticed absolutely no difference in the way my > plants grow. What I preferred about the Kellogg sand, however, was that it > was much lighter and made for a more open mix. Hi - I recently picked up a bunch of sand at Lyngso, which is down near Redwood City, CA. (http://www.lyngsogarden.com/) They sell a bunch of RMC sand in all sorts of different grades. I think this is the sand that David Grey recommended from Lyngso: http://www.rmclonestar.com/asphalt/sands.htm It seems to be the best thing they have for horticulture - they mention it's good for water treatment, water wells, pool filters, aquarium gravel, and sandbox sand. $8.00 per 100 pounds (1 sack) I hope it's OK to use, as I just planted a bunch of stuff with it. chuckr http://chuckr.blogspot.com ################### From: strega@split.it Thu Feb 14 15:43:47 2002 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:43:45 +0100 Subject: U. australis age (and something about U. leptoplectra) Hi list, while observing my U. australis hibernacula I was wondering how old could they be. I mean: how many years ago did the seed, which originated my plant, germinated? According to Taylor, none of the U. australis specimens he saw collected in Europe showed sign of seed production and it is still so in the wild, from what I could observe. U. australis propagates itself very well by plant pieces or hibernacula floating, so it doesn't need to produce seed to survive. So, I think my plants could be really very old, but I can't imagine how much. Also, it would be very interesting to know how much genetic difference exist among various U. australis populations. Does anybody know of any study about this? Thank you and kindest regards Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy P.S.: thank you Greg for your reply about U. leptoplectra. I detached a couple of branches and replanted them. The production of flower stalk stopped and the plant is now growing, slowly but well. ################### From: sender0102@yahoo.com.ar Thu Feb 14 18:41:52 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:41:25 -0300 Subject: Ahora mas que NUNCA... defienda su dinero!!! ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Thu Feb 14 18:50:54 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:49:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Ahora mas que NUNCA... defienda su dinero!!! Riding into the Sun... lets go little doggies ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:42 PM > ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 19:53:55 2002 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:53:53 -0800 Subject: Re: warning about aquarium heaters >if this is true then mea culpa. i visited hydroponics stores at the time >and i was told they'd heat only to 70 degrees. Some heating mats have built-in internal thermostats, and they are usually set to 70 degrees, so maybe that was what they were referring to. However, you can override this by using an external thermostat. I've been heating my tanks to 80 degrees using the heat mats for 2 years now. Even though they are on thermostat control, I've noticed the temperature will fluctuate between 75 and 85 degrees inside the tank. >certainly it was my *assumption* that a 2x4 foot mat is what one would need >for a 2x4 foot tank, but it is hard for me to imagine what a 2x4 foot mat >is designed for if not to heat a 2x4 foot area. The 2x4 heating mat you are referring to was intended to be used with a seed flat, which is normally open on the top, so the heat just rises up and gets dispersed. However, if you use the heating mat on an enclosed terrarium, you can get by with a smaller size as the heat is better retained. So the heating mats being sold for heating seed flats tend to be larger than the heating mats sold for reptile enclosures. As far as I can tell, there is no difference between the two, you can use the same heating mats for either seed flats or terrariums. There is more variety in sizes for the heating mats sold for reptile use, and it will usually say on the packaging what size terrarium they will heat. >i really wish you wouldn't misquote me; i never said they only work on seed >flats, nor did i say that they wouldn't heat the air in enclosures. Hmm..well, I was just referring to these statement from your March 2001 CPN article: Although many manufacturers produce electric heating mats, the mats tend to have a surface area far smaller then most terraria. Furthermore, most are designed to heat a seedflat, not the large air/soil volume of a 120-200 liter (30-50 gallon) terrarium. Hence, these mats are of minimal utility. You did include a warning in your article about aquarium heaters being exposed to air creating a potentially hazardous situation. I've done my aquarium heater tests prior to the release of your article, and wasn't picking on your article. I just giving a general warning and wanted everyone to be aware of the risks involved with using the aquarium heaters. By the way, someone in an earlier post mentioned using GFCI, which is always a good idea whenever you have anything electrical near water. However, the GFCI only helps prevent electrical shock, and in this case, doesn't eliminate the fire hazard risk. Ron ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Thu Feb 14 21:05:52 2002 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:05:33 EST Subject: Re: warning about aquarium heaters "You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to, Let's call the whole thing off" ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Thu Feb 14 21:08:59 2002 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:05:38 -0500 Subject: this aquarium stuff is>> Hello. How come very few complaints have rolled in about this silly garbage?? If it were squirrels which do far greater damage to a sizeable collection over a aquarium heater in a 20 gallon aquarium the list serve would light up like a bolt from hell hit it??? Not to take away from what is being said, but you people should not get so upset over a heating pad on a very few select plants, regardless of the largest size. I am here to tell you that squirrels can do far greater damage to a good size collection than turning the largest heating mat up to 200 F. Mike St. Petersburg Fl ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 11:00 PM > > > > >if this is true then mea culpa. i visited hydroponics stores at the time > >and i was told they'd heat only to 70 degrees. > > Some heating mats have built-in internal thermostats, and they are usually > set to 70 degrees, so maybe that was what they were referring to. However, > you can override this by using an external thermostat. I've been heating my > tanks to 80 degrees using the heat mats for 2 years now. Even though they > are on thermostat control, I've noticed the temperature will fluctuate > between 75 and 85 degrees inside the tank. > > >certainly it was my *assumption* that a 2x4 foot mat is what one would need > >for a 2x4 foot tank, but it is hard for me to imagine what a 2x4 foot mat > >is designed for if not to heat a 2x4 foot area. > > The 2x4 heating mat you are referring to was intended to be used with a seed > flat, which is normally open on the top, so the heat just rises up and gets > dispersed. However, if you use the heating mat on an enclosed terrarium, > you can get by with a smaller size as the heat is better retained. So the > heating mats being sold for heating seed flats tend to be larger than the > heating mats sold for reptile enclosures. As far as I can tell, there is no > difference between the two, you can use the same heating mats for either > seed flats or terrariums. There is more variety in sizes for the heating > mats sold for reptile use, and it will usually say on the packaging what > size terrarium they will heat. > > >i really wish you wouldn't misquote me; i never said they only work on seed > >flats, nor did i say that they wouldn't heat the air in enclosures. > > Hmm..well, I was just referring to these statement from your March 2001 CPN > article: > > Although many manufacturers produce electric heating mats, > the mats tend to have a surface area far smaller then most > terraria. Furthermore, most are designed to heat a seedflat, > not the large air/soil volume of a 120-200 liter (30-50 gallon) > terrarium. Hence, these mats are of minimal utility. > > You did include a warning in your article about aquarium heaters being > exposed to air creating a potentially hazardous situation. I've done my > aquarium heater tests prior to the release of your article, and wasn't > picking on your article. I just giving a general warning and wanted everyone > to be aware of the risks involved with using the aquarium heaters. > > By the way, someone in an earlier post mentioned using GFCI, which is always > a good idea whenever you have anything electrical near water. However, the > GFCI only helps prevent electrical shock, and in this case, doesn't > eliminate the fire hazard risk. > > Ron > > ################### From: f_knoblewski@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 21:46:16 2002 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:46:14 +0000 Subject: bugs Dear cp experts, Which bug has most protein for my bug-catcher? I thinking ahhhh grasshopper!!! Freedo. Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Thu Feb 14 21:49:10 2002 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:49:02 +1100 Subject: Re: U. australis and U. volubilis G'day all, I don't know a lot about U. australis but I see it all the time and know that it is extremely variable. I have small plants, big ones, ones that don't seem to form turions at all, ones with red traps, and the list goes on. They all grow in exactly the same tank seperated by sheets of glass. I'll see if I can get a picture of a few side by side. For those of you wishing to multiply U. volubilis or similar species, simply remove a 'leaf' with trap attatched and this will form a new plant in a short period of time. I accidently broke several leaves off my plant to discover this. It's better than pulling the plant out of the pot to divide it. Regards Greg MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Thu Feb 14 22:26:40 2002 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:18:09 -0500 Subject: Re: D. intermedia "Cuba" At 1:47 PM -0800 2/14/02, Cpbog@aol.com wrote: >Why not just repot the plant and change the soil? If the millipedes >aren't that many, you can always just pick them up and put them >outside. To me, that would be the easiest thing to do! :) > >Hope this helps! Well, if it were me, I wouldn't be worried about a millipede a week, especially if they were inclined to stay in the pot. It's my friend's girlfriend who's concerned about the bugs, & I think he's also looking for an excuse to pick up a couple of CPs. Thanks, -Kit -- Kit Halsted - kit@carnivorousplants.nyc.ny.us Brooklyn, NY, USDA Zone 7a ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Thu Feb 14 23:23:31 2002 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:23:19 -0500 Subject: Re: D. intermedia "Cuba" At 8:15 AM -0800 2/14/02, Chris Teichreb wrote: >Hi Kit, > >> >>I have a friend who wants to control a very small millipede >>infestation with carnivorous plants. I'm dubious, but considering he >>only sees a millipede once or twice a week it might work, and I'm >>always happy to start more people growing carnivorous plants. I'm >>thinking D. intermedia "Cuba" might be good, maybe capensis too. The >>infestation is in a palm pot with potting soil, so > > First, as people mentioned, you need to figure out if these are >millipedes or centipedes. Either way, I guess your friend doesn't want them >running around their house! Millipedes are generally more 'round' and tend >to curl up in a ball when disturbed. Centipedes are much flatter and tend >to burrow into the soil when disturbed. My friend tells me they're millipedes, but I haven't seen them. For anyone who can't tell the difference on sight, here are some links: Millipede: Centipede: Another centipede, & a Bad Idea if it's not a fake: > > >>A: I was thinking the shallow roots of D. intermedia would work in a >>layer of peat/sand on top of the potting soil better than capensis. > > I would suggest putting them in a non-draining pot in the top of the >soil. Sounds like a workable solution. > > >>B: I was also thinking it would give me a chance to see if D. >>intermedia is actually weedy enough to grow in regular soil. > > Doubtful. I've had capensis spring up in potting soil, but it definitely >did not do well. A lot depends on how much your friend waters and >fertilizes the palm. In general, the growing requirements of palms are