################### From: bioexp@juno.com Tue Jan 1 11:20:36 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:17:45 -0800 Subject: Re: Supposed New Drosera Species >>Taxonomic level is something that we'll be discussing in our graves, it'll never be agreed upon 100%. I guess before they were published people would've also considered those news Byblis as subspecies of B.liniflora. Fernando Rivadavia >>Personal communication with Allen Lowrie 2 days ago, said you're opening up a Pandora's Box you don't want to get involved with until more information is gathered, but to simply pick one group of plants out of a very large complex with so much variation, the legitimacy of the new species is questionable at best. Petiolaris Sean Hi Fernando, Sean, and all, Yes, it seems at times like taxonomy and nomenclature are more of a philosophy than a science. It need not always be that way. Take the example of the split-up of Byblis linifolia as Fernando mentions above. No one can now argue against this split-up. Do you know why? It was Barry Meyers-Rice that proved that these now separate species cannot be hybridized. Since a species is a breeding pool and the different forms of Byblis cannot interbreed, they must then be iron clad separate species. This case of Byblis has more of a mathematical exactness of true science. As I understand it, the forms Drosera indica in the beginning were separate species, D. serpens, D. purpurascens, D. augustifolia, and D. finlaysoniana. Then Diels came along and labeled them all D. indica. I would like to see more work such as Barry did before specific labeling takes place. Then Pandora's box might not be opened-up at all. Happy New Year! -Ivan http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: edwards@sympac.com.au Tue Jan 1 13:22:21 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:21:13 +1100 Subject: Toothless VFT Hi everyone, Approaching mid summer here in Australia, and the CPs are growing well. I have a VFT ("Big Mouth" variety) which I've noticed has some strange traps growing. Most traps on the plant are normal (and quite large at this time of year), however I notice that on the plant there's about 3 or 4 "toothless" traps. They are completely without "teeth", and the edges of the traps are completely smooth. They still have the trigger hairs, and still close like all other traps (although I s'pose they would be less effective at trapping their prey). I've been growing VFTs for more years than I care to remember, and never seen this before. The same plant (which is now several years old) has never done this before. I initially thought something had eaten the edges of the traps, but this isn't the case. They are actually growing like this. Any ideas? Paul Edwards. If anyone's interested, I could probably try to get a close up photo of the traps, and post it on the web. ################### From: weststar59@yahoo.com Tue Jan 1 20:22:40 2002 Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:22:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Genlisea trap cuttings Can someone tell me if you need just a piece of root or the whole, folked trap to get a new plant? The plant I'm trying to propagate is Genlisea Hispidula. Thanks in advance. Gene Viola Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Wed Jan 2 00:37:00 2002 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:37:29 +0100 Subject: Re: New _Heliamphora_ & _Drosera_ Dear Fernando, > Who are the authors? Messrs. Andreas Wistuba, Peter Harbarth, and Thomas Carow. > Did you observe these glands elsewhere on the plants? They are probably *not* glands, as they do not appear to secrete anything. They are present at the base of leaves (even in some bracts, which are directly derived from leaves). I did not see them elsewhere. Kind regards Jan ################### From: fabien.zunino@univ-poitiers.fr Wed Jan 2 02:45:54 2002 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 11:51:17 +0100 Subject: Search article about Genlisea Hi all, I search the following article about the genus Genlisea: Revision of the genus Genlisea (Lentibulariaceae) in Africa and Madagascar with Notes on ecology and phytogeography, Nordic Journal of Botany (20: 291-318) Thank you, Regards, ****** Happy New Year 2002 ******** Fabien ZUNINO New e-mail (fabien.zunino@free.fr) ################### From: bllorber@wcvt.com Wed Jan 2 05:53:58 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:53:46 -0500 Subject: Pure water source I was just reading the new issue of CP newsletter. On page 118 under "News and Views" a grower recommends using water collected from dehumidifiers or air conditioners. This sound like a great source of free water but I seem to remember a discussion on this list about "problems" with this water source. Can someone refresh my memory on this issue. Thanks! Bryan Charlotte, Vermont U.S.A ################### From: massey@fmhi.usf.edu Wed Jan 2 07:28:32 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:25:50 -0500 Subject: RE: Pure water source FWIW: I have used condensate on occasion, although I don't now. I also know several other growers who use it without any reported problems. However, I know a cactus grower who does not use it (based on discussions on the cactus group) because the evaporator trays are usually copper and supposedly there is a lot of copper leeched out of the system into the water. Of course, here in the U.S. almost all water pipes are copper, so that logic escapes me. Tom in Fl. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:00 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP I was just reading the new issue of CP newsletter. On page 118 under "News and Views" a grower recommends using water collected from dehumidifiers or air conditioners. This sound like a great source of free water but I seem to remember a discussion on this list about "problems" with this water source. Can someone refresh my memory on this issue. Thanks! Bryan Charlotte, Vermont U.S.A ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Wed Jan 2 07:31:26 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 07:31:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Pure water source On Wed, 2 Jan 2002, Bryan and Leslie Lorber wrote: > > I was just reading the new issue of CP newsletter. On page 118 under "News > and Views" > a grower recommends using water collected from dehumidifiers or air > conditioners. This sound like a great source of free water but I seem to > remember a discussion on this list about "problems" with this water source. > Can someone refresh my memory on this issue. Water from those sources may be contaminated with copper or other metallic ions. So-called "pure" water is very reactive and corrosive--water is chemically "happier" if some ions are dissolved in it, so high purity water tends to attack any oxidizable surface, such as bare metal. Most air conditioners and dehumidifiers have metallic pipe and condensor surfacers, so if the water has been in contact with the surfaces for very long before it is collected, it may be contaminated. That's why water used in molecular biology and quantitative chemistry labs is glass-distilled and allowed to contact only glass or PVC, teflon, or polypropylene plastic surfaces. Use an inexpensive continuity meter that measures dissolved ions to check the purity of the water from such household condensor sources. Sean Barry ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Wed Jan 2 07:50:15 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:43:51 -0500 Subject: trade partners Hello all & Happy New Year! I am interested in finding growers willing to trade plant material. I don't have anything to sell, only trade. I have the following rooted Nepenthes cuttings available for trade as soon as Michigan weather permits safe shipping. N. alata N. x coccinia N. rafflesiana (TC) N. x 'Judith Finn' (TC) N. gracilis N. ventricosa (several forms) N. mirabilis N. burkei N. maxima N. albomarginata N. tobiaca x maxima N. x wrigleyana I am most interested in expanding our Drosera and Pinguicula collections, but am also looking for additional Heliamphora and Darlingtonia plants. Please contact me off list if you are interested in trading If you have an educational or public collection and are interested in acquiring some of the listed Nepenthes cuttings, please contact me off list as well. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: massey@fmhi.usf.edu Wed Jan 2 08:01:14 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:58:35 -0500 Subject: RE: trade partners Steve: I have been out for a while with the the hoildays. I hope the N. distillatoria made it safely? Tom in Fl. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 10:55 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hello all & Happy New Year! I am interested in finding growers willing to trade plant material. I don't have anything to sell, only trade. I have the following rooted Nepenthes cuttings available for trade as soon as Michigan weather permits safe shipping. N. alata N. x coccinia N. rafflesiana (TC) N. x 'Judith Finn' (TC) N. gracilis N. ventricosa (several forms) N. mirabilis N. burkei N. maxima N. albomarginata N. tobiaca x maxima N. x wrigleyana I am most interested in expanding our Drosera and Pinguicula collections, but am also looking for additional Heliamphora and Darlingtonia plants. Please contact me off list if you are interested in trading If you have an educational or public collection and are interested in acquiring some of the listed Nepenthes cuttings, please contact me off list as well. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: sschane@ucsd.edu Wed Jan 2 08:21:39 2002 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 08:21:04 -0800 Subject: Newspaper article about CPs In today's issue (Wednesday January 2, 2002) of the San Diego Union Tribune there is an article in the science section (called "Quest") about CPs and in particular hunting for a rare variety of Nepenthes in Borneo. You can view the article on-line (there are some nice photos too) by going to: www.uniontribune.com Then from the left-hand column of choices click on "Quest". The title of the article is "Hunting the Hunters". It is definitely worth reading. Sanford ################### From: rogier_hier@hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 14:42:00 2002 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:41:58 +0100 Subject: cut flower stalks after Sarracenia division? Gents, Some people advice to cut new emerging flower stalks from just divided Sarracenia's, to let not exhaust the recovering plant to much. Some people don't mind it. Last year I didn't cut off the flower stalks, but I am considering to cut off the half this year. But before I loose a lot of those beautiful flowers, what are your experiences with this? Thanks! Kind regards from Rogier, The Netherlands. Chat on line met vrienden en probeer MSN Messenger uit: http://messenger.msn.nl ################### From: nepenthes@borneoexotics.com Wed Jan 2 18:39:38 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 08:35:49 +0600 Subject: Nepenthes & cryogenics Help needed: I have recently been contacted by assistants to Marc Quin, a high profile artist in the UK who will shortly be exhibiting his work at a major art museum. One of the works requires a Nepenthes plant which will be permanently preserved in a specially designed cryogenic cabinet. The plant must be less than 30cm in diameter and with several large pitchers and will need to be couriered to the museum on a specific date for treatment. The artist is prepared to pay a suitable price for the right plant. Unfortunately, while we could help in that we have suitable plants here in Sri Lanka, the cumbersome CITES permit process makes it difficult for us to ship in time. The lucky plant is therefore being sought from within Europe. If you think you may have a suitable plant in your Nepenthes collection, then please contact me directly and I will put you in touch with the artist's office. Don't miss this unique chance to have your favourite plant preserved for posterity and gawked at by thousands! Happy New Year Everyone! Rob Canrtley Borneo Exotics http://www.borneoexotics.com ################### From: interbnk@terra.com.gt Wed Jan 2 18:43:04 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:40:59 -0600 Subject: Treatment of Nepenthes leaf blights? Greetings! I was wondering whether members of this forum can recommend a contact fungicide to control the "red spot" leaf blight that occurs on some Neppies from time to time. I have been using benomyl for control, but I have recently innoculated my growing media with Trichoderma, and am loathe to start spraying a systemic fungicide again before I can evaluate the results of this experiment. Fortunately, due to past control sprays, my current outbreak is very limited in scope, but I don't want to see it spread. Cheerio, Jay ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Wed Jan 2 19:36:42 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 22:36:24 EST Subject: Re: Newspaper article about CPs In a message dated 1/2/02 8:24:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, sschane@ucsd.edu writes: > In today's issue (Wednesday January 2, 2002) of the San Diego Union Tribune > there is an article in the science section (called "Quest") about CPs and > in particular hunting for a rare variety of Nepenthes in Borneo. You can > view the article on-line (there are some nice photos too) by > going to: www.uniontribune.com > Then from the left-hand column of choices click on "Quest". > > The title of the article is "Hunting the Hunters". It is definitely worth > reading. > Sanford That article seemed awful familiar to me. Then I recognized it as the one from Discover magazine a few months back. Nice to see it get a little wider circulation and give our little friends a little more PR. And anyone who hasn't voted for the CP stamps as your favorite and most important of the year, go and do so now! judging by the numbers for the current favorite, if everyone from this list went and voted, the CPs would win by a landslide! TTFN, Hamir the Hermit "Look over there, there's men dividing up the countryside. They've got authority, they've got a college degree. They've got machinery, they've got a pretty good job to do. They've got instructions and they don't want to bother about me." If you would like to help the victims of the September 11th terrorist attacks with their housing needs, go to http://relief.realtor.org/ [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 20:40:52 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:40:50 +0000 Subject: epiphytic utricularia germination (with my apologies) hello, i must apologize for revisiting a topic which was covered rather thoroughly in recent posts. i've gotten my hands on some seed of u.u. reniformis, alpina, and a sp. from costa rica. i remember that phil wilson and (i believe) a fellow from the australian orchid society had a lot to say about these plants. i just want to know the best compost and conditions for sowing the seeds. again, i apologize for not paying closer attention earlier, and would greatly appreciate any reply. thanks--mike Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: sydneycarnivorous@hotmail.com Wed Jan 2 21:30:37 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:30:35 +1100 Subject: Re: D. indica Greetings, I understand that there are a few members of the D. indica complex which grow side by side but do not allow for hybridisation through several methods. One is by having different petal and/or style colour and therefore employing different pollinators. The other is having the flowers open at different times of the day (ie. the small red plants flower in the morning and the large green ones in the afternoon). This does not make them seperate species. If these different plants can not hybridise with human intervention this proves them to be seperate species but if they do hybridise this does not prove they are not seperate species. Is this correct? Regards Greg Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: sileshar@yahoo.com Wed Jan 2 23:02:45 2002 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:02:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aluminum foil Dear list, I'm having trouble finding an 8" x 20" tray for my mini-terrarium (wood and glass), so I'm going to line the bottom so I can use every bit of space. I'm tempted to use aluminum foil, since the framing isn't all that strong. Anyone with experience using foil in terrariums - most likely as light reflectors? Will the condensate be a problem Thanks for any help. Grow well Hans Doylestown, PA Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Thu Jan 3 04:15:07 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 13:15:01 +0100 Subject: Re: New Drosera Species Dear Ivan & al., > No one can now argue against this split-up. Well, it depends. > Do you know why? It was Barry > Meyers-Rice that proved that these now separate species cannot be > hybridized. Since a species is a breeding pool and the different forms of > Byblis cannot interbreed, they must then be iron clad separate species. > This case of Byblis has more of a mathematical exactness of true science. Not really. Just take the example of _Drosera obovata_. This hybrid is almost always sterile, yet noone would seriously try to interpret it as more than a simple hybrid between _D. rotundifolia_ and _D. anglica_, just because it is so well delimited genetically against its congeners (including itself). The case of _D. tokaiensis_ is exactly as obvious and simple genetically and taxonomically, and still some people would rather treat it as an independent species just because it is *not* sterile. In South Africa, almost all members of sect. Drosera can be hybridized with each other, and the resulting hybrids are usually fertile. Still it appears reasonable to treat them as separate species. The important point (that has obviously still not penetrated public awareness sufficiently) is that sterility, fertility, and breeding behaviour *alone* are *not* sufficient (although these data are doubtlessly useful) for species delimitation in many cases, especially not in the genus _Drosera_ (or _Nepenthes_ or _Sarracenia_). > As I understand it, the forms Drosera indica in the beginning were > separate species, D. serpens, D. purpurascens, D. augustifolia, and D. > finlaysoniana. Then Diels came along and labeled them all D. indica. Not quite. In the beginning, there was no name (and no species, and no taxonomist) whatsoever. (...long version deleted here...) Much later (1753), there was just one name: _D. indica_ Then came silence for 74 (!) years. Then came _D. minor_ (1827), _D. finlaysoniana_ (1828), _D. hexaginia_ (1845), _D. serpens_ (1848), _D. angustifolia_ (1855), _D. adscendens_ (R.Br. in sched. before 1810, ex Diels 1906), _D. metziana_ (1913), and _D. makinoi_ (1932). Then came silence for 67 years. Then came _D. hartmeyerorum_ (2001). _D. purpurascens_ is a synonym of _D. stolonifera_, AFAIK (Index Kewensis). Has this been revised? _D. adscendens_ R.Br. (non Planch.) is a later homonym of a name of a taxon in another section, so it should not be used for any plant in Arachnopus. > I would like to see more work such as Barry did before specific > labeling takes place. This is impossible in most cases (new species are usually discovered in the field or in herbaria but not in cultivation), and it is not formally required (for good reasons). > Then Pandora's box might not be opened-up at all. Splitting and lumping will continue irrespective of the methods used. The only simple rule of taxonomy is there is no simple rule that always applies. Taxonomy is and will always remain the interpretation of situations found in nature. Exact methods can and should be used where possible, but the conclusions and decisions regarding taxonomy depend on the taxonomist, and there are probably no two taxonomists who agree in every respect. Only the inclusivity of taxonomic ranks is defined (a species cannot contain two different genera but a genus can contain two different species), delimitation and definition of taxa are matters of opinion. The reason for the seemingly non-scientific (or non-exact) nature of taxonomy is that there are no nearly as finite, constant, and well-defined items in vivo as in litteris. Taxa are theoretical concepts constructed by the human mind, not the things that really exist and happen in nature. You may regard this insufficient and error-prone (and you are right!), but I think (and I know many colleagues agree here) it is the only way to think and to communicate about these natural beings and processes among humans. Our mind is not prepared for more complex analysis and comprehension. This is why names and their proper use are so important for most of us (although not all of us are prepared to admit it). I do not know a single non-human being that uses names, and still I know lots of creatures that appear (no direct evidence available to me: they do not have a name for it!) to live happy lives without ever using names. "Species" are the simplest human interpretation of (apparently) distinguishable manifestations of life (just like evolution is the simplest interpretation of the processes involved in speciation, not more, and *not less*). Mankind has tried to find a precise, general, and reliable species definition for many generations without appreciable success. The crux is "species" do not really exist out there. Living beings are not constant (cf. the fossil record; those that were beginning to become too constant are fossils now), they do not necessarily observe breeding barriers (there are none in many plant genera), nor are the distinguishing features (as identified by humans) by any necessity relevant in nature (selective advantage is only observable a posteriori: you can identify the disadvantaged ones in the fossil record, those that are still with us are by definition all carriers of almost equally advantaged characteristics). The bad news (not really new) for most plant taxonomists is there is almost no well-preserved fossil record due to the ephemeral nature of most plant structures (no bones). In the few cases where there is an appreciable fossil record, fascinating insights are revealed (e.g. the only widespread "monotypic" cp genus, _Aldrovanda_, was by no means monotypic for most of the time of its existence; _Nepenthes_ probably was originally a more southerly genus, and once it perhaps extended even into Europe; some ancestors of _Dionaea_ did occur in Europe). The bottom line is there are probably a few people wo do not think _D. hartmeyerorum_ is a distinct species, and I can live with it (I do not buy some of their species, either), although I (and presumably a few others) prefer my own interpretation. And no doubt still others will describe or lump further species, and this is OK as well. The only thing that matters is that the reasons for our decisions and the conclusions (names) are published properly so others can make their own decisions based on defined pieces of evidence. As long as the reasons are comprehensible, personal opinions may very well be the basis of scientific hypotheses (because such hypotheses can e.g. be disproved in an exact way if the reasons can be shown to be wrong). Kind regards Jan ################### From: smak_420@hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 06:09:16 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:08:12 -0500 Subject: Heliampora woes well, i've all but lost hope for my poor heli.. since getting it months ago, it has slowly declined in condition to the point of almost being unrecoverable.. only a few spots of green are visable now near the base, as if the plant was in a dormancy.. i suspect the roots are still healthy though. at first i thought my terrerium was too hot for it, so i removed my hps bulb and relied on 3x4 foot 5000+K flourecents to light the terrerium, this effectivly lowered daytime temps from 92F to about 78F consistantly, and raised humidity from 71% to 83%.. nights are unheated (which i was doing in the past as my alata seemed to benefit from it) and stay around 68-70F with high 90's % humidity. it has been like this for over a month now and ive noticed no changes (good or bad.) i think its time i removed the heli from my large tank terrerium and give it a fighting chance by the windowsill in the basement.. this will benefit it in several ways as i see it.. 1) 100% humidity all the time since i'll be keeping it in a large jar which is sealed with wet sphagnum inside. 2) more suitable temps as it will probably see 70F days tops and nights in the low 60's easily if i crack a window. 3) improved light?, its a east facing sill.. not sure if this will provide more or less light than the artificial setup did. does anyone see the lack of air circulation a problem here though? will the shock alone be too much to be worth the chance on such a small (was an inch tall when healthy) plantlet? that do you all think? ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Thu Jan 3 06:57:11 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:50:57 -0500 Subject: RE: Heliampora woes Hey Paul, The few Helia's in our collection have always just kind of existed. When I wanted to put them on public display a few months ago, I decided to cover each of them with a glass bell jar. I removed the glass stopper from the top of the jars to allow a little air exchange. These plants have been on display now for about 7 weeks and they are doing great. they have several big new pitchers and they are sending up flowers. the jars maintain close to 100% humidity, and the temps drop to the low 60's at night and reach a high of about 80 F during the day. The few Helia's that I have in the back greenhouses are still looking the same way they did 3 months ago, very little new growth. I am convinced that they do best with night temps that are about 20 degrees F lower then the day temps, at least in the mid to low 60's, and very high humidity. This combo seems to be working for me. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Paul ' Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:14 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP well, i've all but lost hope for my poor heli.. since getting it months ago, it has slowly declined in condition to the point of almost being unrecoverable.. only a few spots of green are visable now near the base, as if the plant was in a dormancy.. i suspect the roots are still healthy though. at first i thought my terrerium was too hot for it, so i removed my hps bulb and relied on 3x4 foot 5000+K flourecents to light the terrerium, this effectivly lowered daytime temps from 92F to about 78F consistantly, and raised humidity from 71% to 83%.. nights are unheated (which i was doing in the past as my alata seemed to benefit from it) and stay around 68-70F with high 90's % humidity. it has been like this for over a month now and ive noticed no changes (good or bad.) i think its time i removed the heli from my large tank terrerium and give it a fighting chance by the windowsill in the basement.. this will benefit it in several ways as i see it.. 1) 100% humidity all the time since i'll be keeping it in a large jar which is sealed with wet sphagnum inside. 2) more suitable temps as it will probably see 70F days tops and nights in the low 60's easily if i crack a window. 3) improved light?, its a east facing sill.. not sure if this will provide more or less light than the artificial setup did. does anyone see the lack of air circulation a problem here though? will the shock alone be too much to be worth the chance on such a small (was an inch tall when healthy) plantlet? that do you all think? ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Thu Jan 3 08:15:31 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:15:49 -0500 Subject: N. albomarginata has a specialty diet Carnivorous plants: Mass march of termites into the deadly trap MARLIS A. MERBACH*, DENNIS J. MERBACH*, ULRICH MASCHWITZ*, WEBBER E. BOOTH?, BRIGITTE FIALA? & GEORG ZIZKA\247 * Fachbereich Biologie, Zoologisches Institut, Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universitat, Frankfurt am Main, Postfach 111932, 60054 Frankfurt, Germany ? Biology Department, Universiti Brunei Darussalam, Brunei Darussalam, Borneo ? Universitat Wurzburg, Zoologie III, Biozentrum, Am Hubland, 97074 Wurzburg, Germany \247 Botanik/Palaobotanik, Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universitat und Forschungsinstitut Senckenberg, 60325 Frankfurt am Main, Germany e-mail: merbach@zoology.uni-frankfurt.de Carnivorous pitcher plants of the genus Nepenthes are not usually very selective about their prey, catching anything that is careless enough to walk on their slippery peristome, but Nepenthes albomarginata is an exception. We show here that this plant uses a fringe of edible white hairs to lure and then trap its prey, which consists exclusively of termites in enormous numbers. This singular feature accounts for the specialization of N. albomarginata for one prey taxon, unique so far among carnivorous plants. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ################### From: Susan.Farrington@mobot.org Thu Jan 3 08:48:41 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 10:54:09 -0600 Subject: St. Louis Carnivorous Plant Society Meeting The St. Louis Carnivorous Plant Society will be holding its next meeting Thursday, January 10, at 6:30 p.m. at the Missouri Botanical Garden. I'll be showing slides of my trip to the Okefenokee Swamp. All are welcome, beginning growers as well as experienced. Let me know if you're interested in attending. Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden (314) 577-9402 [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 09:13:32 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 09:13:31 -0800 Subject: Nepenthes albomarginata has taste for termites Here's an article in Nature magazine about Nepenthes albomarginata having a preference to catching termites: http://www.nature.com/nsu/020101/020101-4.html Ron MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 10:16:41 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 10:16:39 -0800 Subject: New edition of Donald Schnell's book coming The second edition of Donald Schnell's book 'Carnivorous Plants of the United States and Canada' is coming out this year. Barnes & Noble has it listed with a release date of May 2002, and a suggested retail price of $39.95, which will be available at B&N for $31.96. The new version will be 348 pages and the ISBN number is 0881925403. Ron Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 3 10:40:57 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:49:08 -0500 Subject: "Pandora's box" in the genus Drosera Hello Ivan Greg & list, I am also curious about Drosera and other species being separated on the grounds that they can or cannot be cross pollinated. It would seem all Drosera binata clones I have grown that are "pure" are self incompatable, yet outcrossed "hybrids" between subspecies are fertile. I have also read about chromosomes being doubled by chemical treatment of seed of a species, making the resulting plants compatable for crossing with previously incompatable, separate species. Sarracenia are less complex yet I have rarely heard of anyone boasting of same species, separate population hybrids in this genus, though I know by experience, such crosses have hybrid vigor. I could site a couple of other cp genera, but I have read that orchid, lilies and grass species and genera are even more complicated, in their reproductive outcrossing potential. Is this simply because of errors in the history of Botanical nomenclature? Thank you to anyone with insight to my inquiry. Take care, Steven Stewart Florida USA ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Thu Jan 3 11:54:49 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:54:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Comments on the December CPN Hey Folks, I'm pleased to hear that the December CPN is being so well received. It really does have some interesting content in it. In some shameless back-patting, I'd like to thank Jan Schlauer for his work on the editorial board of CPN. Without his presence, CPN would not have the scientific strength to present new-species descriptions. Furthermore, with his work on cultivar registration, we are finally seeing the increased interest in registering cultivar names so we can finally figure out what we are trading amongst ourselves! I'm looking forward to plants like Sarracenia 'Hummer's Hammerhead' getting into wider circulation, because some of these cultivars are really cool! Unfortunately, while I was on vacation in the chilly lands of Chicago (temperatures of -14C, i.e. 7F!) I noticed a typographical error that had crept into the December CPN. If you all open your CPN issue to page 115, you'll notice that the cultivar description at the top of this page does not have a cultivar name clearly associated with it. This description refers to Sarracenia 'Golden-Red Jubilee'. You could easily figure this out by looking at the list of cultivars at the beginning of the article, or by looking at the photographs in the article. However, I just wanted to add this clarification. OK, back to work! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: flytrap@charter.net Thu Jan 3 13:51:05 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:51:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Comments on the December CPN Barry, Glad you are back. I have sent the 1st draft your way today, Thursday. I hope We have had about 6-8 inches of snow. I dropped it off at a box that stated a 5:30 Pickup. So you should have it in the morning. I saw your message about the December issue. I checked my file and it was at the top of my page 115. I am not sure what happen. Thanks Steve on 1/3/02 2:58 PM, Barry Meyers-Rice at bamrice@ucdavis.edu wrote: > > > Hey Folks, > > I'm pleased to hear that the December CPN is being so well received. It > really does have some interesting content in it. > > In some shameless back-patting, I'd like to thank Jan Schlauer for his > work on the editorial board of CPN. Without his presence, CPN would not > have the scientific strength to present new-species descriptions. > Furthermore, with his work on cultivar registration, we are finally seeing > the increased interest in registering cultivar names so we can finally > figure out what we are trading amongst ourselves! I'm looking forward to > plants like Sarracenia 'Hummer's Hammerhead' getting into wider > circulation, because some of these cultivars are really cool! > > Unfortunately, while I was on vacation in the chilly lands of Chicago > (temperatures of -14C, i.e. 7F!) I noticed a typographical error that had > crept into the December CPN. If you all open your CPN issue to page 115, > you'll notice that the cultivar description at the top of this page does > not have a cultivar name clearly associated with it. This description > refers to Sarracenia 'Golden-Red Jubilee'. You could easily figure this > out by looking at the list of cultivars at the beginning of the article, > or by looking at the photographs in the article. However, I just wanted to > add this clarification. > > OK, back to work! > > Barry > > ------------------------ > Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. > Carnivorous Plant Newsletter > Conservation Coeditor > barry@carnivorousplants.org > http://www.carnivorousplants.org > ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 3 14:27:53 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:26:05 +0000 Subject: Re: epiphytic utricularia germination (with my apologies) Mike, >i must apologize for revisiting a topic which was covered rather thoroughly >in recent posts. i've gotten my hands on some seed of u.u. reniformis, >alpina, and a sp. from costa rica. i remember that phil wilson and (i >believe) a fellow from the australian orchid society had a lot to say about >these plants. i just want to know the best compost and conditions for sowing >the seeds. again, i apologize for not paying closer attention earlier, and >would greatly appreciate any reply. thanks--mike > U. reniformis and U. alpina should be sown on a regular 60/40 peat and sand. I can't comment obviously on the unknown species from Costa Rica but the same mix is probably a good start. Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Thu Jan 3 14:38:57 2002 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:38:49 EST Subject: Re: Comments on the December CPN Barry, The little mistakes like that we can live with. Jan and you have been doing such a fantastic job introducing us to all these fantastic new cultivars. The only error you can make is having us "Ooh" and "Ahh" and desire these wonderful plants that were mostly unknown to the bulk of us, and then we can't obtain them because there are very few propagated plants or they are not available to the public. But that won't happen, will it!!??? Even though my Psychiatric evualtions are much better and I have stopped spontaneously screaming "Piroutte!!" in panic situations, I won't been looking at another case of Cultivaranemia, will I? Heeeheee, gibber, rub hands together maniacally..... Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 3 14:55:05 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:54:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Aluminum foil In message <20020103070231.82862.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com>, Hans Johnson writes > > Dear list, > > I'm having trouble finding an 8" x 20" tray for my mini-terrarium >(wood and glass), so I'm going to line the bottom so I can use every bit >of space. > I'm tempted to use aluminum foil, since the framing isn't all that >strong. Anyone with experience using foil in terrariums - most likely as >light reflectors? Will the condensate be a problem > Thanks for any help. If you have any electrics in the terrarium I would not advise the use of foil since the foil could become live if you have any sort of electrical fault. If you have to use foil you should ensure it is properly grounded. An alternative might be reflective mylar material - the stuff space blankets are made from. It is almost as reflective and is apparently electrically non-conductive. The main weakness is the reflective material will scratch off after a while if it comes into contact with sands and grits too often. Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Thu Jan 3 15:18:27 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 18:18:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Comments on the December CPN I really am enjoying the Dec. CPN, lots of nice pictures and interesting scineticific & some habitat info. CPN is really nicely done. I enjoyed the Darlingtonia article and the pictures were great. We are really lacking cultural information with CPN, very little the whole year on how to grow the darn things. This change away from cultural information has been going on for sometime, and though scientific & habitat info is useful on getting ideas on possible ways to grow the plants it isn't enough. In fact there is no cultural information at all in the Dec issue, unless you count the seed bank. There is nothing for the horticultural interest in growing carnivorous plants. How can this be? There doesn't seem to be enough membership or worldwide interest in carnivorous plants to warrant a separate quarterly that centers on plant cultivation so what ideas are there to include useful current horticultural information on growing these plants? I would also like someone with some knowledge on the subject to clarify the naming of cultivars. While I certainly enjoy viewing all Hummers Sarracenia cultivars, does every Sarracenia variant/hybrid deserve cultivar status? I am a avid Sarracenia grower, and just love the plants, but if all one has to do is pick every different hybrid and put it in cultivar status then I will fill a 100 page periodical with new cultivars! After all there are thousands of different types of outcome you can get with just a few crosses from seed, all look different. I must have 5 different forms of S. x formosa, but are they all of cultivar status? I doubt it, I am a legend only in my own mind. Then someone else can name there cultivar of S. x formosa after themselves and the whole thing becomes a diluted mess of nothing. I am not picking on Mr. Hummer, there have been far worse mutts named cultivars and published in CPN's in recent past. Many it looks like are coming right out of the wild, someone sees it and "A-ha- I will name this Sarracenia a cultivar"! Lets get a handle on this before it becomes a worse mess than the naming of Nepenthes hybrids has. By the way Hummers Hammerhead is a dynamite cultivar! Regards, Mike St. Petersburg Florida We are still lacking almost any kind of decent ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 4:53 PM > > Barry, > > Glad you are back. I have sent the 1st draft your way today, Thursday. I > hope We have had about 6-8 inches of snow. I dropped it off at a box that > stated a 5:30 Pickup. So you should have it in the morning. I saw your > message about the December issue. I checked my file and it was at the top of > my page 115. I am not sure what happen. > > Thanks > > Steve > > on 1/3/02 2:58 PM, Barry Meyers-Rice at bamrice@ucdavis.edu wrote: > > > > > > > Hey Folks, > > > > I'm pleased to hear that the December CPN is being so well received. It > > really does have some interesting content in it. > > > > In some shameless back-patting, I'd like to thank Jan Schlauer for his > > work on the editorial board of CPN. Without his presence, CPN would not > > have the scientific strength to present new-species descriptions. > > Furthermore, with his work on cultivar registration, we are finally seeing > > the increased interest in registering cultivar names so we can finally > > figure out what we are trading amongst ourselves! I'm looking forward to > > plants like Sarracenia 'Hummer's Hammerhead' getting into wider > > circulation, because some of these cultivars are really cool! > > > > Unfortunately, while I was on vacation in the chilly lands of Chicago > > (temperatures of -14C, i.e. 7F!) I noticed a typographical error that had > > crept into the December CPN. If you all open your CPN issue to page 115, > > you'll notice that the cultivar description at the top of this page does > > not have a cultivar name clearly associated with it. This description > > refers to Sarracenia 'Golden-Red Jubilee'. You could easily figure this > > out by looking at the list of cultivars at the beginning of the article, > > or by looking at the photographs in the article. However, I just wanted to > > add this clarification. > > > > OK, back to work! > > > > Barry > > > > ------------------------ > > Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. > > Carnivorous Plant Newsletter > > Conservation Coeditor > > barry@carnivorousplants.org > > http://www.carnivorousplants.org > > > ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Thu Jan 3 19:49:46 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 21:47:06 -0600 Subject: Humidifier Water pH Hello all, Has anyone using an ultrasonic humidifier to fog a terrarium ever tried adjusting the pH of the water down to keep the pH of the medium from creeping upwards? If I do decide to try this, what would be a safe starting pH? Thanks for any input. Tom ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Thu Jan 3 23:26:49 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 01:26:47 -0600 Subject: Hybrids and species

Jan superbly covered this topic, and thanks for clarifying the history of D. indica.

<<Do you know why? It was Barry Meyers-Rice that proved that these now separate species cannot be hybridized. Since a species is a breeding pool and the different forms of Byblis cannot interbreed, they must then be iron clad separate species. This case of Byblis has more of a mathematical exactness of true science. >>

<Not really..........The case of _D. tokaiensis_ is exactly as obvious and simple genetically and taxonomically, and still some people would rather treat it as an independent species just because it is *not* sterile.>

How about the offsprings? To be recognized as its own species, I thought offsprings should not segregate as you often see those of  primary hybrids. I was thinking the case of D. anglica, and that may be relevant as well, right?

<The important point (that has obviously still not penetrated public
awareness sufficiently) is that sterility, fertility, and breeding

behaviour *alone* are *not* sufficient (although these data are doubtlessly useful) for species delimitation in many cases, especially not in the genus _Drosera_ (or _Nepenthes_ or _Sarracenia_).>

I agree. I think sterility among hybrids simply shows genetic dustance(s) between two parental species.

<Splitting and lumping will continue irrespective of the methods used.>

Speaking of sterility (or fertility) among primary hybrids, many of (not all, though) orchid primary hybrids are perfectly fertile. Intergenerics (hybrids between different genera) are hardly new. You can buy hybrids of Brassolaeliocattleya (Brassavola x Laelia x Cattleya), Ascocenda (Ascocentrum x Vanda) and Vulystekeara (Miltonia x Cochlioda x Odontoglossum) even at local Lowes (or Home Depot). If I remember correctly, there is a man-made genus that consists of species from nine genera. Of course, this depends on species, genera, subtribes, and tribes that orchids belong to. The concept of species that is readily applied to a group of family/genus, etc may not be applicable to another.

<Only the inclusivity of taxonomic ranks is defined (a species cannot contain two different genera but a genus can contain two different species),>

Does this apply to fungal species as well? For example, Giberella fujikuroi is a teleomorph of Fusarium moniliforme (anamorph). I remember some macrocyclic rust fugi belonging to three genus depending on the number of life cycles. Since this is fungal taxonomy, the situation may be different.

There were many other good points, but I should keep my message short.


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################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jan 4 02:35:34 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 11:35:28 +0100 Subject: Re: Hybrids and species Dear Hideka, > Jan superbly (...) Thanks for your appreciation! ;-) > The case of _D. tokaiensis_ is exactly as obvious and simple > genetically and taxonomically, and still some people would rather > treat it as an independent species just because it is *not* sterile. > How about the offsprings? To be recognized as its own species, > I thought offsprings should not segregate as you often see those of > primary hybrids. I was thinking the case of _D. anglica_, > and that may be relevant as well, right? _D. tokaiensis_ is so similar to one parent species (_D. spatulata_) that it has been treated as a subsp. of it before it was discovered that part of its chromosomes are exact copies of those of _D. rotundifolia_ (which is morphologically not too far away, either). The offspring of _D. tokaiensis_ is, therefore, not very surprising (again very similar to _D. spatulata_, or _D. tokaiensis_ for that matter). The decisive point for my interpretation here (I regard _D. tokaiensis_ as a hybrid like _D. obovata_) is neither morphological (which would favour inclusion in _D. spatulata_) nor genetical (which would favour segregation as a separate species like _D. anglica_) but chorological: Like _D. obovata_, _D. tokaiensis_ is not chorologically independent from its parent species, i.e. it does not occur in a phytogeographic unit (province) outside the overlap of the ranges of the parent species, both of which extend considerably beyond that area. In contrast to _D. tokaiensis_, _D. anglica_ extends beyond the range of _D. rotundifolia_ in a number of places (Hawaii - probably introduced recently, S USA, S Europe), and beyond the range of the other putative parent (a possibly now extinct relative of _D. linearis_) by most of its range (outside N America). > Only the inclusivity of taxonomic ranks is defined (a species cannot contain two different genera but a genus can contain two different species), > Does this apply to fungal species as well? Yes (mutatis mutandis). > For example, Giberella fujikuroi is a teleomorph of > Fusarium moniliforme (anamorph). I remember some macrocyclic > rust fugi belonging to three genus depending on the number of life > cycles. Since this is fungal taxonomy, the situation may be > different. Not really. But the inclusivity is of course restricted to the stage if the stages may receive different names. _Gibberella fujikuroi_ does not *include* two or more different genera of teleomorphs, anamorphs or *whatsoever. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Fri Jan 4 03:06:29 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:06:24 +0100 Subject: cp cultivation articles Dear Mike, > There doesn't seem to be enough membership or worldwide interest in > carnivorous plants to warrant a separate quarterly that centers on plant > cultivation so what ideas are there to include useful current horticultural > information on growing these plants? One of the problems might be that cps occur in 118 (of 152) floristic provinces, all of which have a particular climate/vegetation. Cp growers occur in all 152 provinces (although they concentrate disproportionally in perhaps 20 provinces; these are usually not those with the highest indigenous cp diversity). Result: Cps are usually cultivated ex situ, and it is almost impossible to make general statements on the cultivation of any cp that will lead to success in all possible situations; "current horticultural information" can only consist of reports on what has worked in a particular situation. This will certainly not lead to 100% success everywhere. You can find plenty of such information in books like "Savage Garden" by Peter D'Amato (no endorsement, just a quotation). But we cannot satisfy the demands of our international readership by just printing the same in CPN. The other, possibly larger, problem is lack of manuscripts. It has been stated many times before, but it obviously requires repetition: ** We cannot print in CPN what is not submitted as a manuscript. ** A lack of articles (suspected or real) on a particular topic is not due to censorship by the editors who do not like them but due to missing authors who would write them. > (...)does every Sarracenia variant/hybrid deserve cultivar status? No. > I am a avid Sarracenia grower, and just love the plants, but if all one > has to do is pick every different hybrid and put it in cultivar status > then I will fill a 100 page periodical with new cultivars! Yes (the page number is of course variable according to situation). The periodical is called the International Register (IR). At the moment the cp IR fills 5162 lines, corresponding roughly to 100 pages. You can retrieve the information from the cp database: http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home > I must have 5 different forms of S. x formosa, but are they all of > cultivar status? No registered cultivar belongs to this taxon but the name has two later nomenclatural synonyms (same parent species): _S. decora_ and _S. maddisoniana_. > I doubt it, I am a legend > only in my own mind. Then someone else can name there cultivar of S. x > formosa after themselves and the whole thing becomes a diluted mess of > nothing. It is not the competence or duty of a registration authority to judge the quality or distinctness of cultivars. We just have to ensure the quality and distinctness of cultivar names. If the registrant *thinks* his/her cultivar is distinct and superior, and if he/she submits a description (published somewhere else or to be published in CPN) mentioning the features that in his/her opinion are distinguishing, and if he/she adds a high quality photograph (together with a permit to reproduce it) showing these features, the name of this cultivar will in any event be considered for registration. If the name is formally acceptable (cf. ICNCP), it will in any event be registered by the ICPS. > Many it looks like are coming right out of the wild, someone sees it > and "A-ha- I will name this Sarracenia a cultivar"! This is perfectly OK with the rules (ICNCP). > Lets get a handle on this The first handle is a way to fix the meaning of names: registration. The International Cultivar Registration Authority (ICRA) provides exactly this, information on cultivar names (not more and not less). Another handle (but not an ICRA's job!) is awarding particular cultivars in plant shows or displays. This has been done in a few cases with cp cultivars. It can, however, sometimes degenerate into a political issue, and although we record notes on awards (to the best of our knowledge) in the cp IR, registration is entirely independent from awards. > before it becomes a worse mess than the naming of Nepenthes hybrids > has. A very generalized statement on a widely diverse topic. Most names are not too bad (if applied correctly), but some are really a pain. Kind regards Jan (ICPS Registrar) ################### From: slawarre@meijergardens.org Fri Jan 4 06:12:00 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:05:28 -0500 Subject: RE: Humidifier Water pH In my humble opinion as a Professional grower (non CP, that is) pH of water is highly misunderstood. It is far more important to have water with a low ALKALINITY. Water alkalinity is often confused with water basicity. The alkalinity of water refers to its parts per million dissolved CaCO3. Basicity refers to pH. This is the main contributor to waters ability to buffer, or change media pH. It is far more important to have water with low ALKALINITY then it is to have water with low pH. If you are having trouble with your media pH rising, then your culprit is probably a water source with high alkalinity. I use well water in all our greenhouses. CP's get RO water. When I started here 4 years ago, the well water had an alkalinity of 340. Ideally, water used for plants should have an alkalinity of <100. We have to inject sulfuric acid into our well water to bring the Alkalinity down. Our water had such a high buffering capacity, that the sulfuric acid injector didn't lower the pH until our alkalinity got down to under 250. If you have ever done a simple titration experiment, you know what I mean. To put this in perspective, I can add one drop of sulfuric acid to a gallon of our RO water(alkalinity ~20)and the pH will drop. If I do this same thing to a gallon of our well water, the pH will stay the same, and the Alkalinity will drop slightly. The high alkalinity of the well water acts as a buffer. Anyway, I don't know why I started this, its about as clear as mud. I would check your water alkalinity before I would worry about trying to lower the pH. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Tom Stubblefield Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:57 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hello all, Has anyone using an ultrasonic humidifier to fog a terrarium ever tried adjusting the pH of the water down to keep the pH of the medium from creeping upwards? If I do decide to try this, what would be a safe starting pH? Thanks for any input. Tom ################### From: Darren_bedwel@iquest.net Fri Jan 4 06:53:36 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:54:28 -0500 Subject: Terrarium cooling with peltiers There are so many plants that can be killed by the heat, or that are healthier with cool temperatures - darlingtonia, highland neps, heliamphora, etc. Has anyone tried using a peltier device to cool a terrarium? If you don't know what a peltier device is, it is a solid state unit that gets cold on one side and hot on the other when you run an electrical current through it. Some fast computers nowadays use peltier units to cool their CPU's. The cold side of the peltier goes against the CPU, and the hot side has a heat sink and fan attached to it. The whole thing runs off of 12 volts DC and can be powered by a spare computer power supply. They draw a lot of current. I am buying one off of ebay to try it out, and will report back on the results. ################### From: ksanders@clas.ufl.edu Fri Jan 4 07:10:53 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:10:47 -0500 Subject: CNN article CNN has a small story (no pics) about the Nep that attracts termites: http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/01/03/killer/reut/index .html -Keith Keith Sanders Systems Programmer CLASnet 100 Rolfs Hall 352-846-1990 ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Fri Jan 4 07:27:28 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:27:06 EST Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers Yes, I do know of a person who is successfully using peltier devices for growing highland neps. I am looking at using them in my orchidarium to grow the really ultra highland neps and heliamphora which require cool temps with really bright light. He seems to be having good luck with it. Email me privately, and I will direct you to him if you like. I am not sure if he is on the listserve. Michael Catalani In a message dated 1/4/2002 8:55:47 AM Central Standard Time, Darren_bedwel@iquest.net writes: > There are so many plants that can be killed by the heat, or that are > healthier with cool temperatures - darlingtonia, highland neps, > heliamphora, etc. Has anyone tried using a peltier device to cool a > terrarium? > > If you don't know what a peltier device is, it is a solid state unit that > gets cold on one side and hot on the other when you run an electrical > current through it. Some fast computers nowadays use peltier units to cool > their CPU's. The cold side of the peltier goes against the CPU, and the > hot side has a heat sink and fan attached to it. The whole thing runs off > of 12 volts DC and can be powered by a spare computer power supply. They > draw a lot of current. I am buying one off of ebay to try it out, and will > report back on the results. > [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jgreen@spectrasymbol.com Fri Jan 4 07:44:23 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:41:43 -0700 Subject: RE: New edition of Donald Schnell's book coming > From: "Ron ." > > The second edition of Donald Schnell's book > 'Carnivorous Plants of the United States and Canada' > is coming out this year. Barnes & Noble has it listed > with a release date of May 2002, and a suggested > retail price of $39.95, which will be available > at B&N for $31.96. The new version will be 348 pages and > the ISBN number is 0881925403. Does anyone have any more info about this? I have the original, which I consider one of the best CP books around, but I think it's only about 120 pages or so. That sounds like a major upgrade if it's nearly triple the original length! BTW, Amazon.com has it for $27.96. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah USA http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jsg16 ################### From: JDPDX@aol.com Fri Jan 4 09:14:52 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:14:39 EST Subject: Re: New Donald Schnell Book >The second edition of Donald Schnell's book >'Carnivorous Plants of the United States and Canada' >is coming out this year. Here's a sneak preview from the publisher, Timber Press. Timber Press: Books on Gardening and Horticultu'\246 Jeff Portland, OR ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 09:15:43 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:15:40 -0800 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers >Has anyone tried using a peltier device to cool a terrarium? I have. I have a small setup where I'm growing some rare highland Nepenthes and sundews which like cool temperature drops at night. Its been running very well for 6 months now, though I should point out there are some limitations involved. The peltier device isn't as effective at cooling as a refrigerator or air conditioner. In regards to cooling a terrarium, the main issue is insulation. A glass terrarium has very little insulation, so any cooling inside the terrarium is quickly lost through the glass walls, so this need to be addressed. To make a long story short, my 'terrarium' consists of a thermoelectric cooler, called the Coleman PowerChill. It is 40 quarts, or about the size of a 10-gallon tank. I originally was going to cannibilize this cooler to take out the peltier device and somehow attach it to a terrarium. The size of the cooling unit is a bit bulky. It consists of the peltier unit (which in itself it quite small), but combined with the two heat sinks and fans, it takes up more room than you would think. In fact, it would be a bit unwieldy to use on a 10-gallon aquarium, and you still have to work out how to handle the warm air exhaust. In the cooler, the peltier device is embedded in the wall, with a small portion of it (the fan) protuding just a little inside the interior. If it was somehow retrofitted to a terrarium, I think it would fit better on a larger tank, but since the size of the cooler is about the size of a 10-gallon tank, I don't think this particular peltier device would perform very well in a larger volume, like say a 60-gallon tank. The cooler is well-insulated, with the container being made up of thick plastic about 2 inches thick and the door is sealed with an O-ring. In comparison, a typical terrarium has glass walls on five sides plus the top. Glass is a poor insulator, so there will be cooling loss through the glass walls of the tank. Because of the insulation issues with glass tanks which I couldn't easily resolve, I just decided to grow the plants inside the cooler instead. The Coleman cooler has a detachable door, intended to be easily placed on the right or left side. I just removed the door, and placed a piece of glass cut to size on top. The purpose of the glass top is so that I can place it under lights. Otherwise, the cooler functions as it normally would. True, I can only view the plants from above, but that is fine as I placed the cooler on the bottom part of my shelving units, and have two four-foot shoplights suspended above it. Since the cooler is the size of a 10-gallon tank, it is on the small size. Fortunately, my Nepenthes are small, and I can fit eight 4-inch pots inside. I originally controlled the temperature insidethe cooler using a timer. I have it turned on and off during various parts of the day, with the idea to keep it around 80 degrees F during the day, and to about 55 degress F at night, which I achieved. There is some guesswork involved in setting up the timer, and of course, the ambient temperature in the garage where I grow the plants is a factor. I have since switched to a cooling thermostat. When the cooler turns on, the built-in fan helps circulate the air inside. This setup has worked very well during the summer heat, where the outside temperature peaked at 110 degrees F, while my plants were cool and happy inside the cooler. The plants I'm growing in setup are mostly highland Nepenthes: N. lowii (Mulu), N. lowii (Trusmadi), N. rajah, N. ephippiata ,N. aristolochioides, N. inermis and I also have H. minor and a Drosera sp. emas (from Brazil) in there. None of the plants have died, and all of the Nepenthes are pitchering. I've found that water condenses on the bottom of the cooler, but this keeps the humidity high, between 70% to 95%. I have the Nepenthes in individual water trays, so the extra water in the cooler does not flood the plants. I also siphon out any excess water using a turkey baster and water my other plants with it. The growth rate of the highland Nepenthes is noticeably slower than with lowland Nepenthes. I had placed live spaghnum moss in each of the pots. The moss is growing faster than the plants, and I have to periodically trim back the moss. This particular setup is excellent for fast growing of live spaghnum moss. One other extra bonus, is this Coleman unit is also a heater. I can reconfigure it in the winter to warm the plants, which I will be doing shortly. Ron MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Fri Jan 4 10:05:01 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:04:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: CPN content: cultivars and cultivation Hey Joe, Mike, Joe wrote: > new cultivars. The only error you can make is having us "Ooh" and > "Ahh" and desire these wonderful plants that were mostly unknown to > the bulk of us, and then we can't obtain them because there are very > few propagated plants or they are not available to the public. I know what you mean. I always try to encourage people who are registering cultivars to try to have lots of plants ready by publication time for distribution. For example, I've been sitting on a cultivar Ping for about a year now, waiting to get at least 30 plants before I publish the cultivar description. I've got about 20, so by about September I'll have 40 or so and will be happy. Some cultivars (e.g. Sarracenia 'Don Schnell') have gone extinct because of inadequate propagation. Mike wrote: > We are really lacking cultural information with CPN, very little the whole > year on how to grow the darn things. > This change away from cultural information has been going on for sometime, > and though scientific & habitat info is useful on getting ideas on > possible ways to grow the plants it isn't enough. In fact there is no > cultural information at all in the Dec issue, unless you count the seed > bank. There is nothing for the horticultural interest in growing > carnivorous plants. How can this be? This frustrates me, too. The problem is, as always, getting the readership to write articles! I go to CP meetings, and people are doing really neat, innovative stuff. They promise me they'll write articles for CPN, but such promises turn into reality so very, very rarely. I try to fill the gap by writing cultivation articles from time to time, but I much prefer to hear from other voices. > I would also like someone with some knowledge on the subject to clarify the > naming of cultivars. While I certainly enjoy viewing all Hummers Sarracenia > cultivars, does every Sarracenia variant/hybrid deserve cultivar status? I Absolutely not! I think that we'll have to watch the future, and see which cultivars are successful. Now, in Hummer's defense, I'll point out that he's been growing Sarracenia for decades and he's got a lot of experience on what makes a good plant. What really gets me nervous is when a person who has grown plants for three years, and has a total of 4 or 5 Sarracenia in their collection, wants to establish a cultivar name for their plant. Cultivar publication costs the ICPS a lot (because of publication costs for color images) and I'm hoping only the best plants are selected for cultivar status. I could talk at length about the whole dynamic of cultivar registration, and grower's pride for their plants, and grower's egos, etc etc, but not today! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: bamrice@ucdavis.edu Fri Jan 4 10:07:36 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:07:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Utricularia calycifida cultivar Hey Folks, Now that we're talking about cultivars... Is anyone on this line growing the cultivar Utricularia calycifida 'Asenath Waite'? This is a plant that I developed a short time ago, and the more it is growing, the more it amazes me. One of my plants is producing leaves that are about three times as large as I've ever seen on a U. calycifida plant, and this plant just never seems to stop flowering. It's probably the best horticultural innovation I've ever developed, if I don't say so myself! Later! Barry ------------------------ Barry A. Meyers-Rice, Ph.D. Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Cpbog@aol.com Fri Jan 4 10:50:27 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:50:00 EST Subject: The CP Bog has moved... Hi everyone! I have moved my website to a much better server than the previous one. Now, there are none of those annoying advertisement banners or pop-ups. Please stop by and take a look and update your bookmarks/favorites! New address: www.spacetowns.com/cpbog The old address will only contain the photo gallery from now on. It will be linked to the new address shortly. This should be the last move of the website, unless something happens to the server! Owen S. The CP Bog [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Fri Jan 4 11:04:53 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:04:37 -0600 Subject: Re: Humidifier Water pH Hello Steve, On the contrary, your explanation was quite clear and very readable. I failed to mention 0 tds in my RO/DI output water, as it should be. Therefore, no hardness and no pH buffering. My problem is with all the RO water being pumped in as humidifying fog, it raises the water table of the terrarium over time, effectively lessening acidity. My terrarium is vented and the dry winter air is not helping. One possible solution is adding a small amount of pH Down to my humidifier reservoir to increase acidity in the medium. When you speak of alkalinity, I take it to mean KH, or carbonate hardness. If I misunderstood, please correct me. The only other alternative would be to cool off the terrarium and vent less. I'll work on this. Thanks for the input! Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 8:17 AM > > In my humble opinion as a Professional grower (non CP, that is) pH of water > is highly misunderstood. It is far more important to have water with a low > ALKALINITY. Water alkalinity is often confused with water basicity. The > alkalinity of water refers to its parts per million dissolved CaCO3. > Basicity refers to pH. This is the main contributor to waters ability to > buffer, or change media pH. It is far more important to have water with low > ALKALINITY then it is to have water with low pH. > > If you are having trouble with your media pH rising, then your culprit is > probably a water source with high alkalinity. I use well water in all our > greenhouses. CP's get RO water. When I started here 4 years ago, the well > water had an alkalinity of 340. Ideally, water used for plants should have > an alkalinity of <100. We have to inject sulfuric acid into our well water > to bring the Alkalinity down. Our water had such a high buffering capacity, > that the sulfuric acid injector didn't lower the pH until our alkalinity got > down to under 250. If you have ever done a simple titration experiment, you > know what I mean. To put this in perspective, I can add one drop of sulfuric > acid to a gallon of our RO water(alkalinity ~20)and the pH will drop. If I > do this same thing to a gallon of our well water, the pH will stay the same, > and the Alkalinity will drop slightly. The high alkalinity of the well > water acts as a buffer. > > Anyway, I don't know why I started this, its about as clear as mud. I would > check your water alkalinity before I would worry about trying to lower the > pH. > > > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com]On > Behalf Of Tom Stubblefield > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 10:57 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list CP > Subject: Humidifier Water pH > > > > Hello all, > Has anyone using an ultrasonic humidifier to fog a terrarium ever tried > adjusting the pH of the water down to keep the pH of the medium from > creeping upwards? If I do decide to try this, what would be a safe starting > pH? > Thanks for any input. > Tom > > > ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Fri Jan 4 11:19:03 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:18:55 EST Subject: Re: CNN article In a message dated 1/4/02 7:14:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, ksanders@clas.ufl.edu writes: > http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/01/03/killer/reut/index > .html > I only get an error message. Was it significantly different from the other articles? TTFN, Hamir the Hermit "Look over there, there's men dividing up the countryside. They've got authority, they've got a college degree. They've got machinery, they've got a pretty good job to do. They've got instructions and they don't want to bother about me." If you would like to help the victims of the September 11th terrorist attacks with their housing needs, go to http://relief.realtor.org/ [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Fri Jan 4 11:23:59 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:12:19 -0600 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers Darren, I've thought about incorporating peltier units into my terrarium but the cost of purchasing enough of them is prohibitive on a 55 gallon terrarium. I've even thought about the CoolWorks IceProbe sold by Pet Warehouse and others. It is supposed to be good for containers 50 gallons or less. I think it might be usable in a terrarium situation but you might have to have a pool of water at one end for it to work in. Please let me know what you come up with. It might be worth doing. Regards, Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 8:55 AM > > There are so many plants that can be killed by the heat, or that are > healthier with cool temperatures - darlingtonia, highland neps, > heliamphora, etc. Has anyone tried using a peltier device to cool a > terrarium? > > If you don't know what a peltier device is, it is a solid state unit that > gets cold on one side and hot on the other when you run an electrical > current through it. Some fast computers nowadays use peltier units to cool > their CPU's. The cold side of the peltier goes against the CPU, and the > hot side has a heat sink and fan attached to it. The whole thing runs off > of 12 volts DC and can be powered by a spare computer power supply. They > draw a lot of current. I am buying one off of ebay to try it out, and will > report back on the results. > > ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Fri Jan 4 11:30:57 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:30:44 -0600 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers Ron, I have contemplated doing this for some time now. I may have a partial solution to the insulation. My thought is to get a sheet of 1/2" styrofoam insulation, cut it to size, and cover the sides and back of the terrarium, effectively reflecting lost light as well. The front and top are the only concerns left. As for the top, thin plastic is better than glass, which cuts out too much of the UV the plants need. Perhaps a thin sheet of polycarbonate or plexiglass would suffice here. It is also more insulating than glass as it doesn't have the heat migration glass is infamous for. I love electronics and cp! The peltier junction units would probably work well in a highland tissue culture cabinet of about 20 gallon size. I'll be delving into that shortly. Just a thought. Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 11:18 AM > > > > >Has anyone tried using a peltier device to cool a terrarium? > > I have. I have a small setup where I'm growing some rare highland Nepenthes > and sundews which like cool temperature drops at night. Its been running > very well for 6 months now, though I should point out there are some > limitations involved. > > The peltier device isn't as effective at cooling as a refrigerator or air > conditioner. In regards to cooling a terrarium, the main issue is > insulation. A glass terrarium has very little insulation, so any cooling > inside the terrarium is quickly lost through the glass walls, so this need > to be addressed. > > To make a long story short, my 'terrarium' consists of a thermoelectric > cooler, called the Coleman PowerChill. > It is 40 quarts, or about the size of a 10-gallon tank. > I originally was going to cannibilize this cooler to take out the peltier > device and somehow attach it to a terrarium. The size of the cooling unit > is a bit bulky. It consists of the peltier unit (which in itself it quite > small), but combined with the two heat sinks and fans, it takes up more room > than you would think. In fact, it would be a bit unwieldy to use on a > 10-gallon aquarium, and you still have to work out how to handle the warm > air exhaust. In the cooler, the peltier device is embedded in the wall, with > a small portion of it (the fan) protuding just a little inside the interior. > If it was somehow retrofitted to a terrarium, I think it would fit better on > a larger tank, but since the size of the cooler is about the size of a > 10-gallon tank, I don't think this particular peltier device would perform > very well in a larger volume, like say a 60-gallon tank. > > The cooler is well-insulated, with the container being made up of thick > plastic about 2 inches thick and the door is sealed with an O-ring. In > comparison, a typical terrarium has glass walls on five sides plus the top. > Glass is a poor insulator, so there will be cooling loss through the glass > walls of the tank. Because of the insulation issues with glass tanks which I > couldn't easily resolve, I just decided to grow the plants inside the cooler > instead. > > The Coleman cooler has a detachable door, intended to be easily placed on > the right or left side. I just removed the door, and placed a piece of > glass cut to size on top. The purpose of the glass top is so that I can > place it under lights. Otherwise, the cooler functions as it normally > would. True, I can only view the plants from above, but that is fine as I > placed the cooler on the bottom part of my shelving units, and have two > four-foot shoplights suspended above it. Since the cooler is the size of a > 10-gallon tank, it is on the small size. Fortunately, my Nepenthes are > small, and I can fit eight 4-inch pots > inside. > > I originally controlled the temperature insidethe cooler using a timer. I > have it turned on and off during various parts of the day, with the idea to > keep it around 80 degrees F during the day, and to about 55 degress F at > night, which I achieved. There is some guesswork involved in setting up the > timer, and of course, the ambient temperature in the garage where I grow the > plants is a factor. I have since switched to a cooling thermostat. When the > cooler turns on, the built-in fan helps circulate the air inside. > > This setup has worked very well during the summer heat, where the outside > temperature peaked at 110 degrees F, while my plants were cool and happy > inside the cooler. The plants I'm growing in setup are mostly highland > Nepenthes: N. lowii (Mulu), N. lowii (Trusmadi), N. rajah, N. ephippiata ,N. > aristolochioides, N. inermis and I also have H. minor and a Drosera sp. emas > (from Brazil) in there. None of the plants have died, and all of the > Nepenthes are pitchering. > > I've found that water condenses on the bottom of the cooler, but this keeps > the humidity high, between 70% to 95%. I have the Nepenthes in individual > water trays, so the extra water in the cooler does not flood the plants. I > also siphon out any excess water using a turkey baster and water my other > plants with it. The growth rate of the highland Nepenthes is noticeably > slower than with lowland Nepenthes. I had placed live spaghnum moss in each > of the pots. The moss is growing faster than the plants, and I have to > periodically trim back the moss. > This particular setup is excellent for fast growing of live spaghnum moss. > > One other extra bonus, is this Coleman unit is also a heater. I can > reconfigure it in the winter to warm the plants, which I will be doing > shortly. > > Ron > > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > > ################### From: wb.sherren@ntlworld.com Fri Jan 4 11:58:23 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:54:29 -0000 Subject: Brown patchs on N.Stenophylla leaf. Hi With the English winter weather now really starting to bite, the greenhouse heaters are earning their keep! Today I noticed my reasonable size N.Stenophylla has developed brown areas to both sides of its latest leaf, covering about 50% of each side. The previous leaves don't look too bad, and the last pitcher to develop still looks okay (not opened). As growth has now stopped I am hoping this sudden appearance of brown edges won't affect the next generation of growth. But as this latest leaf has not fully unfolded, what is the best course of action? The plant is kept with my other Highlands in my greenhouse at a min temp of 50f. I have moved it to maximise its exposure to light. Any other ideas, as I don't to lose it. cheers Bill www.fly-catchers.co.uk [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 12:35:32 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:35:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers >I've even thought about the CoolWorks IceProbe sold by Pet Warehouse and >others. It is supposed to be good for containers 50 gallons or less. I've seen something like this, but I believe it is designed to cool water, not air. To get it work in a terrarium, you would have to cool a container of water, which in turns cools the inside of the terrarium. >I may have a partial solution to the insulation. My thought is to get a >sheet of 1/2" styrofoam insulation, cut it to size, and cover the sides and >back of the terrarium, effectively reflecting lost light as well. That would work, but you still have to insulate the top and bottom as well. The downside, of course, if a terrarium is covered with so much insulation, it will not be very viewable. >The peltier junction units would probably work well in a highland tissue culture cabinet of about 20 gallon size. Eventually, my Nepenthes are going to outgrow my cooler setup, so I'll have to move to a larger enclosure, so I'd be interested to see what you come up with. The peltier unit would need to have a heat sink attached with a fan to be more effective, and on the other side of the peltier unit which is hot, you have to channel that heat away. Ron Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 12:44:02 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:44:00 -0800 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers >>I've even thought about the CoolWorks IceProbe The IceProbe costs $99. Ouch. Also, it is advertised to drop 10 gallons of water up to 8 degree below ambient temperature, which really isn't that much of a drop. The cooler I'm using can drop the air temperature 45 degrees below ambient temperature. Ron Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: eklaab@hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 12:55:30 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:55:28 -0800 Subject: Re: New Donald Schnell Book Hmmm.....Amazon and Barnes & Noble list the book at 348 pages. Timber Press has it at 472 pages. I wonder which one is correct? Ron Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: tdstubb@sofnet.com Fri Jan 4 13:10:00 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:09:49 -0600 Subject: Re: Terrarium cooling with peltiers Ron, Well, the only affordable alternative to glass is acrylic, preserving the viewability and adding insulation at the same time. And that's my next project. Building a larger terrarium out of 3/8" polycarbonate. Then the insulation issue is not so important. As for the bottom, with 6-8" of medium I don't think this will be a problem. As far as the heat, etc., If the peltier units were mounted on the side of an insulated box, like your cooler, a small fan (thermostat controlled) could be used to continuously blow the cooler air in the box into the terrarium via dryer vent hose or some other means. In essence, a small air conditioner without the expense of running a compressor. Then it comes down to how many peltier junctions are necessary to keep up with the needed volume of cooled air. I'll keep working on this as there is definitely more experimentation needed. Please keep me informed on your progress as well. Thank you. Tom ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 2:35 PM > > > > >I've even thought about the CoolWorks IceProbe sold by Pet Warehouse and > >others. It is supposed to be good for containers 50 gallons or less. > > I've seen something like this, but I believe it is designed to cool water, > not air. To get it work in a terrarium, you would have to cool a container > of water, which in turns cools the inside of the terrarium. > > >I may have a partial solution to the insulation. My thought is to get a > >sheet of 1/2" styrofoam insulation, cut it to size, and cover the sides and > >back of the terrarium, effectively reflecting lost light as well. > > That would work, but you still have to insulate the top and bottom as well. > The downside, of course, if a terrarium is covered with so much insulation, > it will not be very viewable. > > >The peltier junction units would probably work well > in a highland tissue culture cabinet of about 20 gallon size. > > Eventually, my Nepenthes are going to outgrow my cooler setup, so I'll have > to move to a larger enclosure, so I'd be interested to see what you come up > with. > > The peltier unit would need to have a heat sink attached with a fan to be > more effective, and on the other side of the peltier unit which is hot, you > have to channel that heat away. > > Ron > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > ################### From: dhcl604@yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 13:41:15 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:41:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for Anfreas Wistuba Hello All, Pardon this posting but I need to contact Andreas Wistuba. After e-mailing him several times, I still haven't received a reply. Does anyone know if he is away on holiday? Thanks. Dave Heule Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 15:07:20 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:28:03 -0600 Subject: Re: CNN article 1/4/02 1:28:30 PM, HmrTheHrmt@aol.com wrote: >I only get an error message. Was it significantly different from >the other articles? > Go to CNN.COM and search for nepenthes. Wayne ################### From: emckee00@yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 15:16:26 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:16:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stovehouse plants address? Does anyone have the mailing address of Stovehouseplants.com? They're web page is down at the moment and I was hoping to place an order (before they're sale ends tomorrow!). Please email me off-list. Thanks in advance, Erik McKee Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: andreas@wistuba.com Fri Jan 4 15:19:08 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 00:18:44 +0100 Subject: AW: Looking for Anfreas Wistuba Hi list, I'm alive (;-) though I had a little while off. Bye Andreas -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com] Im Auftrag von David Heule Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Januar 2002 22:45 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: Looking for Anfreas Wistuba Hello All, Pardon this posting but I need to contact Andreas Wistuba. After e-mailing him several times, I still haven't received a reply. Does anyone know if he is away on holiday? Thanks. Dave Heule Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ################### From: curt.onstott@orst.edu Fri Jan 4 16:38:59 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:37:44 -0800 Subject: Don't cheat on those watering schedules! I've been away from the office since last Friday. Instead of going in on Wed. to take care of my CP's, I waited until today. I was horrified to find that all of the leaves and pitchers on my N. gracillis had shriveled and dried out from lack of water. What a bummer!! It had been doing very well-- some of its many, many, pitchers were nearly 2.5 inches tall. I'm hoping that there it a spark of life left in it, but I'm not holding my breath. ################### From: marliac@earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 17:28:58 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 19:49:38 -0600 Subject: Aquarium water Is aquarium water suitable for CPs, or is it full of nasty salts that they won't like? Wayne ################### From: sjbarry@ucdavis.edu Fri Jan 4 18:06:41 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:06:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Aquarium water On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Wayne Morrow wrote: > > Is aquarium water suitable for CPs, or is it full of nasty salts that > they won't like? Depends on the water--if it came from a hard water source, it definitely has salts that might not work well with carnivorous plants. Hard water or not, the BIG problem might be that if there were fish in the water there will be lots of dissolved nitrates and a few dissolved nitrites and even a little ammonia, all of which might be really bad for the plants. OTOH, I use aquarium water for garden plants and cacti all the time. Sean Barry ################### From: dmerritt@blackduck.net Fri Jan 4 18:07:15 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 20:11:23 -0600 Subject: VFT Hi, I have a VFT on exhibit at the science center where I work. It is now flowering. I never put it down for the winter with the other VFTs as it never looked ready to go down, and it draws a lot of attention from visitors at the center. I was waiting till after the holidays to force it to go down, only now it is flowering. This seems entirely out of time to me. It is also a very small plant. It never did grow like the other ones. Does anyone know what triggers flowering in VFTs? Would it be daylight hrs? It is under artificial light. I will probably go ahead and let it finish flowering because of the interest in it, and because I do have other plants in the fridg. But I would like to know why it is flowering now. It can't think it is spring as I live in northern Minnesota. Thank you. Anita [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: dcbertelsen@peoplepc.com Fri Jan 4 18:08:37 2002 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 20:11:00 -0600 Subject: Re: Don't cheat on those watering schedules! Curt, I feel your pain... I was repotting a couple of Drosophyllum seedlings last night and shut the heat off in my growing area. At least it only got down to 50 F inside... Doug ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 6:47 PM > > I've been away from the office since last Friday. Instead of going in on > Wed. to take care of my CP's, I waited until today. > > I was horrified to find that all of the leaves and pitchers on my N. > gracillis had shriveled and dried out from lack of water. What a bummer!! > It had been doing very well-- some of its many, many, pitchers were nearly > 2.5 inches tall. > > I'm hoping that there it a spark of life left in it, but I'm not holding my > breath. > > ################### From: Jeff@World.Org Fri Jan 4 18:09:39 2002 Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 21:09:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Termites and N. albomarginata. Hi everyone, A friend came across this story on Discovery, and passed it along to me. The news article talks about research by Marlis Merbach and others at Johann Wolfgang Goethe Institute in Frankfurt, Germany. http://dsc.discovery.com/news/reu/20011231/plant.html They have discovered a special adaption of Nepenthes albomarginata that causes it to capture enormous numbers of termites in the wild. Maybe people should plant these around their wooden homes in the Southeast, at least when it is not snowing, as it has been this week. :-) Best wishes, Jeff Gold ___________________________________ Web Site: http://www.World.Org ----------------------------------- World Environmental Organization Southeast U.S. Headquarters 2001 J.T. Elder Road Watkinsville, Georgia 30677 Phone: (706) 769-9696 Fax: (706) 769-6969 mailto:Jeff@World.Org ___________________________________ ################### From: ajbroome@xtra.co.nz Fri Jan 4 19:54:41 2002 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 16:56:17 +1300 Subject: Re: "Pandora's box" in the genus Drosera Steven Stewart, > It would seem all Drosera binata clones I have grown that are "pure" > are self incompatable... Certainly, in my experience, the New Zealand forms (from various locations but all similar in appearance) of D. binata that I've grown have all been self-fertile and seed freely in my collection. To the extent that they rival D. capensis as a weed... Andrew. ################### From: imduff@hotmail.com Fri Jan 4 21:08:46 2002 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 05:08:44 Subject: Re: Sarracenia cultivars >I am a avid Sarracenia grower, and just love the plants, but if all >one >has to do is pick every different hybrid and put it in cultivar >status >then I will fill a 100 page periodical with new cultivars! >I must have 5 different forms of S. x formosa, but are they all of >cultivar status? I doubt it, I am a legend only in my own mind. Then > >someone else can name there cultivar of S. x formosa after themselves > >and the whole thing becomes a diluted mess of nothing. Personally, I'm excited about seeing plants named, especially Sarracenia. I don't envision a surplus of potential cultivars being submitted for registration. Certainly, there may be cultivars created that are "unspectacular." To a degree this is a matter of opinion. Most of John Hummer's hybrids were created years, even decades, ago. Because of John's generosity, his hybrids have found their way into many collections. He deserves credit for his efforts; growers with his plants should recognize his creations. I don't have to list John's contributions to the hobby, but it's fair to mention that he's a pioneer. As a hybridizer, I feel that he has an "eye" for these plants. Having seen many of his hybrids, I'm impressed with the beauty of his creations. He selects plants based upon numerous characteristics, rather than simple deviations from the norm. Stefan Ploszak Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ################### From: stovehouse@earthlink.net Fri Jan 4 23:34:00 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 02:33:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia cultivars > Personally, I'm excited about seeing plants named, especially Sarracenia. I > don't envision a surplus of potential cultivars being submitted for > registration. Certainly, there may be cultivars created that are > "unspectacular." To a degree this is a matter of opinion. > Most of John Hummer's hybrids were created years, even decades, ago. Because > of John's generosity, his hybrids have found their way into many > collections. He deserves credit for his efforts; growers with his plants > should recognize his creations. Stefan, I was not knocking John, no more than Ca Carnivores for naming cultivars.. That wasn't the reason I posted my thread, and please don't take it that way. Being gifted living in the range of Sarracenia maybe I am biased. My point was simply if every S. x catesbaei is going to be considered a cultivar then the future is very bleak. Example I have a plant (S. flava x purpurea burkii) that several non-cp people have enjoyed seeing the past year. In no way do I consider the plant worthy of cultivar status. It is unique and I have to agree its better than a typical S. flava cut throat, but no, no its not worthy of cultivar status. Even if it was I wouldn't name it "Hunts classic catesbaei", but that is how I think. I understand now a little how things are named. We all have our own views on our future heritage and what that means to our own ego. In my opinion almost all Sarracenia hybrids are incredible, okay a few dogs. Now I am not sure whoever the Delores Wyland hybrid is named for is a compliment. This is another in a endless stream of psittacinea crosses that borders on pure sooner, not good hybrid/cultivar at -all yet named. Ugh, this plant does not deserve cultivar status yet it s a named cultivar. How could this be named, well someone liked it, named it, published it. The future sales potential are nil for the clone I saw. Of course others may love it, though I doubt it. Because I cross a S. minor with a S. alata does that make a cultivar? I don't think so. What we have happening now is a lot of this sort of thing. I have seen far better S. rubra wherryi x lecuophyllas in the field and yet the ones pictured and framed in the CPN represent a pitiful example of what the hybrid really can be and is in certain genetic examples. But they were named, so that is how it is. We have plants name for the "blood of Dracula" or some other monster, and without a doubt someone displaying these plants will rip a pitcher open to show the consumed prey that is being digested, they will smile while doing this and people will go "gross", I don't want that kind of stinky plant at my home" then run off to by a carrion flower succulent. Imagine if we all saw the contents of a super models gut, I think sports Illustrated would not have a good swim suit issue. Should there me more discretion towards naming of future cultivars? I say yes, its pure bull to name any plant a person wants a cultivar because its not been coined before. This is pure silly. A countless list of rubra hybrids will outrun ink shortly. Certainly many hybrids are pretty and unique I don't doubt this, I know this. But all Sarracenia are not worthy of cultivar status, and I have seen nothing written that prevents stupid duplicates of the same plants. We have heard here that this is not the fact, yet in print (CPN) every issue is dotted with cultivars that may not be deserving of the status. I feel last year many were not, I feel it will complicate and confuse a already mixed up matter. I feel its worth further discussion, I am not happy with the answers about this. I have seen the mess with Nepenthes, it will always be a mess through my life time. We not have the same problems to the extreme with Sarracenia. Even with the best records things run a foul, take Ladies in Waiting I can name 2 sources with different heritage for the plant both documented from the creator of the plant. One is on the data base the other at the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens. Both these sources have different crosses named for the same plant (Ladies in Waiting, a dramatic cultivar) You know we don't even class S. flava as genetic subspecies, when S. rubra grabs the attention. Let me tell you a S. flava in North Carolina is different than most in northwest Florida, you don't have to be a botanist to see this. Yet S. rubra gulfensis and S. rubra Carolina are different animals yet in the field look almost alike to the horticulturist. This is a job for botanist, not the horticulturist. Naming redundant Cultivars, or plants that have no place being cultivars takes space, money, & time for the horticulturist. Certainly some will get through, and maybe they should. But here we name many of the same hybrids without any outstanding charteristics a cultivar. Some of these plants are just not worth it in the long run, we need to snuff this out now by form or a group that judges cultivar status. Otherwise get ready, as the trend catches on there will be 500 different cultivars of S. minor in the very near future. S. minor"looks different than John Does" S.minor " Big Ted Bundy" S.minor " Doe's giant- the great one" S. minor "copper mouth with a red lip" S. minor "The mummies severed toe" ... all from seed of the same plant The last point- most of these plants are not making it into commercial propagation. At this point commercial propagation via tissue culture in the USA is almost nil. I have to out reach to Australia to find in-vitro plants. Many of these are what they can import and may not be the best clones for species. There are some hot hybrids in Australia. In the USA we are extremely limited as to Sarracenia. We are held by what a major lab feels is commercially marketable, these may not be (I don't think they are good choices at all) successful in the long run. To this date in the US we have no successful S. flava clones in tissue culture for commercial propagation, yet we have Delores Wyland (S. psittacina x rubra wherryi). A has been cultivar when the real prize remains covered. This is going to change soon. Mike St. Petersburg Florida .. I ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 5 03:52:19 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 11:51:07 +0000 Subject: Re: Humidifier Water pH In message <000d01c194d2$cac78180$d79af340@mygamepc>, Tom Stubblefield writes > >Hello all, >Has anyone using an ultrasonic humidifier to fog a terrarium ever tried >adjusting the pH of the water down to keep the pH of the medium from >creeping upwards? If I do decide to try this, what would be a safe starting >pH? Wouldn't you want to use as pure water as possible with the ultrasonic humidifier? Otherwise I should think a few months of use would rapidly cause it to clog. Regards, -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 5 07:26:27 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:34:30 -0500 Subject: Utricularia calycifida 'Asenath Waite' Hello Barry, I remember when you offered this cultivar and a few other Utricularia to the list a while ago, but I was not able to take you up on the offer at the time. I thought the list would like to know ( I would) if you should be contacted personally, or if you have a supplier(s) that you could suggest we obtain a small amount of this cultivar from? I have found this species to be very beautiful and easy to grow, but I now have less than perfect conditions and my two forms rarely flower. Take care, Steve Stewart ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Sat Jan 5 09:34:58 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 09:34:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Too much humidity? I got a new terrarium for my nepenthes this christmas (yay!) and am having a good time with it. It's a 42 gallon Hex tank. I have one of those table-top water fall things that you see a novelty stores in with my nepenthes. The tanks has a tedency to get foggy because of the incredibly high humidity level as a result of the waterfall. I believe I heard somewhere that too much (possibly that much) humidity might cause root-rot, etc. I have a very healthy plant going on here and I would like to keep it that way, should I open up the tank at different times of the day to let the "fog" out? If so, is it better to do this during the night time or the day? I'm assuming night time to mimic the lower humidity levels these plants probably find at night. I'm also trying to water it a bit less since it's winter where I'm at - is this high humidity going to mess up the fact that I'm trying to get it through it's "dormancy" (understanding the nepenthes really don't have a dormancy, just a period of lower watering during the winter). Thanks! ~Ben --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Sat Jan 5 10:20:23 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:16:12 -0800 Subject: Re: Pandora's box >>...Sarracenia are less complex yet I have rarely heard of anyone boasting of same species, separate population hybrids in this genus, though I know by experience, such crosses have hybrid vigor. I could site a couple of other cp genera, but I have read that orchid, lilies and grass species and genera are even more complicated, in their reproductive outcrossing potential. Is this simply because of errors in the history of Botanical nomenclature? Thank you to anyone with insight to my inquiry. Take care, Steven Stewart Hi Steven and all, Yes, there are errors. Here is a big one I'm sure a lot of you have noticed. There is a conflict between the principle of introgressive hybridization and a current rule of nomenclature. The rule is simply wrong. The rule states that a hybrid, no matter how many times it is backcrossed to one of the parents, can never again be labeled as that parent species, but instead must always remain a hybrid. Here is an example you will be familiar with: An expert knows that Sarracenia flava varieties have gained their polymorphism through introgression. These S. flava varieties are correctly labeled so, yet an expert knows they are of hybrid origin. According to the the rule of nomenclature, the plants must be labeled S. flava hybrids. ...creeek (sound of box opening) Hope that helps:-) -Ivan http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: curt.onstott@orst.edu Sat Jan 5 12:28:01 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 12:26:31 -0800 Subject: RE: Too much humidity? If you let the ultrasonic humidifier run all of the time, the humidity will get too high. I'm using a humidifying humidistat from greenair products to control my fogger and keep my humidity between 70 and 90%. As long as there is not condensation on the sides of the tank, your humidity is not too high. One funny thing with my humidifier, was that it had a low water level sensor that depended on the conductivity of the water to tell it that there was water in the container. The distilled water I use would not conduct! I had to short the sensor leads to tell it to run. ################### From: it_290@hotmail.com Sat Jan 5 13:22:28 2002 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 21:22:26 +0000 Subject: u. calcyfida 'asenath waite' and epiphytic seed thanks hello, barry, i grow this cultivar of yours. it has done well for me and is gradually filling its pot. the only other utric i can compare it to in my collection is your cultivar 'mrs. marsh'; the former seems to be doing much better though both are grown side by side. neither has flowered yet but i suspect they need to get bigger first. there is a picture of my plant at: www.geocities.com/pingenstein/asenath2.jpg also thanks to all who emailed me regarding the sowing of epiphytic utric seeds. interestingly, there was no consensus! however the range of suggestions (60:40 peat sand, boiled long fibre sphagnum, pure milled sphagnum) are all fairly close to each other. thanks folks.--mike Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 5 13:42:15 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:35:09 -0500 Subject: Drosera binata Hello Andrew and all, Thank you for your insight to the self compatability of Drosera binata complex in New Zealand. This shows that what Jan said about cultural information being subject to environmental conditions to be right on the mark. (or is that Euro now ? ;)) I have always grown this plant in greenhouses in Colorado and Florida, that are most likely very different than conditions in New Zealand. Take care, Steve Stewart ################### From: steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 5 13:42:21 2002 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:50:29 -0500 Subject: Pandora's box Hello Ivan and all, They probably should be labeled Sarracenia flava hybrids, until a (or group of) geneticist(s) or botanist(s) is(are) eloquent and or charismatic enough to convince a generation of people that there is only one "real" species in the genus Sarracenia... Take care, Steve Stewart > Hi Steven and all, > > Yes, there are errors. Here is a big one I'm sure a lot of you have > noticed. There is a conflict between the principle of introgressive > hybridization and a current rule of nomenclature. The rule is simply > wrong. The rule states that a hybrid, no matter how many times it is > backcrossed to one of the parents, can never again be labeled as that > parent species, but instead must always remain a hybrid. Here is an > example you will be familiar with: An expert knows that Sarracenia flava > varieties have gained their polymorphism through introgression. These S. > flava varieties are correctly labeled so, yet an expert knows they are of > hybrid origin. According to the the rule of nomenclature, the plants must > be labeled S. flava hybrids. > ...creeek (sound of box opening) > > Hope that helps:-) > -Ivan > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > Topic No. 21 > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 12:26:31 -0800 > From: curt.onstott@orst.edu > To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com > Subject: RE: Too much humidity? > Message-ID: > > > If you let the ultrasonic humidifier run all of the time, the humidity will > get too high. I'm using a humidifying humidistat from greenair products to > control my fogger and keep my humidity between 70 and 90%. As long as there > is not condensation on the sides of the tank, your humidity is not too high. > > One funny thing with my humidifier, was that it had a low water level sensor > that depended on the conductivity of the water to tell it that there was > water in the container. The distilled water I use would not conduct! I had > to short the sensor leads to tell it to run. > > ------------------------------ > > End of CP Digest 2790 > ********************* ################### From: hkobayashi4@hotmail.com Sat Jan 5 14:09:01 2002 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 16:08:51 -0600 Subject: Sarracenia flava polymorphism
Ivan,
 
I don't think I saw any article on Sarracenia flava gaining polymorphism through introgression last time I did a lit. search (been a while. Maybe a year?) on the genus. New things come up really quick as we know. I don't know what fingerpriniting technique they used (microsattelite, AFLP, SNP, etc), and  I am very curious. I am wondering if you can give me the citation.
 
<Here is an example you will be familiar with: An expert knows that Sarracenia flava varieties have gained their polymorphism through introgression. These S. flava varieties are correctly labeled so, yet an expert knows they are of hybrid origin. According to the the rule of nomenclature, the plants must be labeled S. flava hybrids. >


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################### From: imduff@hotmail.com Sat Jan 5 20:37:11 2002 Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 04:37:08 Subject: Re: Sarracenia cultivars Mike, >My point was simply if every S. x catesbaei is going to be considered >a >cultivar then the future is very bleak. >Example I have a plant (S. flava x purpurea burkii) that several non-cp >people have enjoyed seeing the past year. In no way do I consider the > >plant worthy of cultivar status. It is unique and I have to agree its > >better than a typical S. flava cut throat, but no, no its not worthy >of >cultivar status. I understand your point, clearly. The criteria for naming a plant as a cultivar is very general. Certainly, any plant that deviates from the typical form could become a cultivar. Hopefully, plants that become named have more merit than that. Your example of the catesbaei states this well. Incidently, one of the more astute Sarracenia hybridizers, Dr.Mellichamp, has created a catesbaei that is beyond typical. This plant is "perfect" in form, color, appearance. As well, the pitchers are very sturdy and prolific. This plant is beautiful and unique for many reasons, even though it is simply a catesbaei cross. >In my opinion almost all Sarracenia hybrids are incredible, okay a few >dogs. >Now I am not sure whoever the Delores Wyland hybrid is named for is a >compliment. This is another in a endless stream of psittacinea crosses >that >borders on pure sooner, >not good hybrid/cultivar at -all yet named. Ugh, this plant does not >deserve cultivar status yet it s a named cultivar. How could this be >named, >well someone liked it, named it, published it. The future sales potential >are nil for the clone I saw. Of course others may love it, though I doubt >it. Recently, there was a discussion about a Sarracenia hybrid, produced in California, called "Cobra's Nest." I feel this plant has unique characteristics, but is uninteresting. As well, the plant has circulated into many collections. It's not a plant that appeals to me, but I feel it deserves cultivar status. I made a similar argument about John's hybrids; they are unique and they've circulated, so credit should be established. Although, I find John's hybrids very "showy," as well. Because I cross a S. minor with a S. alata does that make a cultivar? >I don't think so. Not necessarily. Although, you may get lucky and produce something worth naming. >We have plants name for the "blood of >Dracula" or some other monster, and without a doubt someone displaying >these >plants will rip a pitcher open to show the consumed prey that is being >digested, they will smile while doing this and people will go "gross", I >don't want that kind of stinky plant at my home" then run off to by a >carrion flower succulent. Imagine if we all saw the contents of a super >models gut, I think sports Illustrated would not have a good swim suit >issue. LOL. The contents would have already been vomitted. :) > >Should there me more discretion towards naming of future cultivars? I say >yes, its pure bull to name any plant a person wants a cultivar because its >not been coined before. This is pure silly. A countless list of rubra >hybrids will outrun ink shortly. Certainly many hybrids are pretty and >unique I don't doubt this, I know this. But all Sarracenia are not worthy >of cultivar status, and I have seen nothing written that prevents stupid >duplicates of the same plants. IMO, the desire to establish Sarracenia cultivars is in relative "infancy." Perhaps the early days of rose or orchid hybridizing produced some poor cultivars. However, today's cultivars are usually something very desirable. Hopefully, Sarracenia hybridizing will continue to evolve to produce plants beyond imagination in beauty. >Even with the best records things run a foul, take Ladies in Waiting I >can >name 2 sources with different heritage for the plant both documented from >the creator of >the plant. One is on the data base the other at the Brooklyn Botanic >Gardens. Both these sources have different crosses named for the same >plant >(Ladies in Waiting, a dramatic cultivar) This situation for 'Judith Hindle' is even worse. The confusion is probably due to the fact that the exact crosses are unknown and the originators speculate the parentage. >You know we don't even class S. flava as genetic subspecies, when S. rubra >grabs the attention. Let me tell you a S. flava in North Carolina is >different than most in northwest Florida, you don't have to be a botanist >to >see this. Yet S. rubra gulfensis and S. rubra Carolina are different >animals yet in the field look almost alike to the horticulturist. This is a >job for botanist, not the horticulturist. The taxonomy can become somewhat political. Giving S.alabamensis species or sub-species status could allow for certain environmental protections that wouldn't occur for variety status. Your point is clear that Sarracenia taxonomy is incomplete. Naming redundant Cultivars, or >plants that have no place being cultivars takes space, money, & time for >the >horticulturist. Certainly some will get through, and maybe they should. >But here we name many of the same hybrids without any outstanding >charteristics a cultivar. Some of these plants are just not worth it in the >long run, we need to snuff this out now by form or a group that judges >cultivar status. Otherwise get ready, as the trend catches on there will >be >500 different cultivars of S. minor in the very near future. I disagree. I don't think there will ever be an epidemic of establishing Sarracenia cultivars. As Sarracenia hybridizing evolves, the plants becoming established as cultivars will as well. The process of having a group to judge cultivars is impractical and flawed. >The last point- most of these plants are not making it into commercial >propagation. At this point commercial propagation via tissue culture in >the >USA is almost nil. I have to out reach to Australia to find in-vitro >plants. Many of these are what they can import and may not be the best >clones for species. There are some hot hybrids in Australia. In the USA >we >are extremely limited as to Sarracenia. We are held by what a major lab >feels is commercially marketable, these may not be (I don't think they are >good choices at all) successful in the long run. To this date in the US we >have no successful S. flava clones in tissue culture for commercial >propagation, yet we have Delores Wyland (S. psittacina x rubra wherryi). Commercial propagators produce plants that they feel are marketable. For Sarracenia they desire plants that are short, sturdy and pitcher well. I love the flava varieties, but they usually don't have any of these characteristics. I agree that some of the best plants do not have widespread availability. I'd be interested to know which Australian plants you have found. I've always contended that the best Sarracenia come from the US. :) I've enjoyed the discussion. Stefan Ploszak Matthews,NC Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ################### From: dcbertelsen@peoplepc.com Sun Jan 6 05:56:00 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 07:58:12 -0600 Subject: Trichoderma and Cephalotus With all of the excitement of trichoderma, I purchased some and applied to a pot of Cephalotus. No big difference yet (only been about 3 weeks), but I noticed that the leaf cuttings in the same pot began to decompose rapidly. I'd suggest thoroughly washing cuttings and placing them in non-treated soils. Doug [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: csvieira@epm.net.co Sun Jan 6 06:26:36 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 09:23:50 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?D=2Enitidula=20ssp=2E=20nitidula=20for=20trade?= Hi, I have some gemma of D.nitidula ssp nitidula and am willing to trade for gemmae of other pigmie (specially looking for D.scorpioides) E-mail me privately if anyone is interested. Regards, Sebastian Vieira Medellin COLOMBIA ------------------------- Sebastian Vieira U. EEPPM E.S.P ________________________________________ Acceso ra'pido a Internet con Epm.Net http://www.epm.net.co ################### From: venusflytrap@bushinternet.com Sun Jan 6 06:49:37 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:43:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Foil in terrarium-risk of electric shock With reference to posting about earthing foil in a terrarium, I always use a residual current device on my Nepenthes tank, it goes beteen the plug and the wall socket. If the tank were to become live and you touched it, the electricity would be cut off immediately, so quick that you probably wouldn't even notice. They used to be called earth leakage circuit breakers, I don't know what they are called in other countries. I do remember, though, to take the breaker off the tank when I go on holiday, it can trip sometimes for no reason. We don't want to lose any CP growers, there are not enough of us as it is ! Regards David Ahrens London ################### From: bioexp@juno.com Sun Jan 6 09:19:13 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 09:14:48 -0800 Subject: Re: Hybrids and species >>The case of _D. tokaiensis_ is exactly as obvious and simple genetically and taxonomically, and still some people would rather treat it as an independent species just because it is *not* sterile... Hideka Hi Hideka, Jan, and all, That's not all of it. Ivan >>_D. tokaiensis_ is so similar to one parent species (_D. spatulata_) that it has been treated as a subsp. of it before it was discovered that part of its chromosomes are exact copies of those of _D. rotundifolia_ (which is morphologically not too far away, either). The offspring of _D. tokaiensis_ is, therefore, not very surprising (again very similar to _D. spatulata_, or _D. tokaiensis_ for that matter). The decisive point for my interpretation here (I regard _D. tokaiensis_ as a hybrid like _D. obovata_) is neither morphological (which would favour inclusion in _D. spatulata_)... Jan I talked to Professor Kondo about this and he too feels this way. The three of you share this philosophy because, sorry, you are ignorant of all the facts. Ivan >>nor genetical (which would favour segregation as a separate species like _D. anglica_) but chorological: Like _D. obovata_... Jan Firstly, you must realize that allopolyploids are by convention accepted as species, as in the case with D. anglica. Secondly, another reason for distinction is that D. tokaiensis is a hexaploid and so cannot interbreed with tetraploid D. spatulata. The offspring would be sterile pentaploids. It's simple, 3 + 2 = 5. Odd ploidys are always sterile. This is another example of the mathematical exactness I like, and you must learn. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ################### From: cmccarth@wvnvm.wvnet.edu Sun Jan 6 12:16:28 2002 Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 15:17:26 -0500 Subject: how many is enough of each one? Hello fellow cp'ers, I have a question that is a little off topic, but I hope you will bare with me. To maintain a specimen of a particular plant in a collection, what is the optimum number of examples? Or asked another way: Is it reasonable for an institution to say, we will only keep one pot of each specimen and that will be fine? On or off list answers are fine with me. Anyone who tries to keep special plants in "permanent collections" is free to answer. Please tell me in your answer if you are answering from the perspective of a commercial, individual devoted hobbyist or institutional, (educational i.e. university, etc) setting. I am just trolling for opinions. Thanks in advance for your time. Carol. ################### From: aarongunnar@home.com Sun Jan 6 12:52:06 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:51:44 -0600 Subject: re: Sarracenia cultivars {Delores Wyland} >>In my opinion almost all Sarracenia hybrids are incredible, okay a few dogs. Now I am not sure whoever the Delores Wyland hybrid is named for is a compliment. This is another in a endless stream of psittacinea crosses that borders on pure sooner, not good hybrid/cultivar at -all yet named. Ugh, this plant does not deserve cultivar status yet it s a named cultivar.<< Where can I get one of these Delores Wyland cultivars? After reading the none-to-kind words about it, I felt bad and would like to get one and give it the love and attention that apparently few others are capable of {wink}. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: kwendex@yahoo.com Sun Jan 6 13:14:57 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:14:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paranoia with watering my nepenthes Alright, I have just proven to myself that I'm very paranoid with water my nepenthes, by how much I'm sitting here worrying about it. The whole, less in the winter and more in the summer has me worried. I tried moving back on the amount of water I was giving my plant and lost a pitcher or two, then I started watering it again more. I haven't noticed much of a change in the plant. It's still very healthy, but, having lost two pitchers makes me very paranoid. Just touching the soil and saying, "that's enough" isn't good for me because I don't know the nature of these plants well enough to say, "that's healthy" or, "that's unhealthy". So, if someone out there could give me a more numeric example of how much they water their nepenthes (this is a gracilis). As in mililiters, etc. each day in the winter and in the summer. I touch and soil right now and it feels slightly damp, I have moss covering the plant and part of that moss takes the water up, so, when I water the plant I'm not sure if I'm not giving it enough water because of the moss cover. My apologies for those out there who are getting annoyed by my questioning about watering this plant, but, I think I have decided that I'm paranoid and would like some actual examples of how much someone waters their plants besides statements such as "damp" or "less damp" because I'm not sure what the means in relation to these plants. Thanks, Ben --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 6 13:31:11 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:38:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Foil in terrarium-risk of electric shock Dave, > >With reference to posting about earthing foil in a terrarium, I always >use a residual current device on my Nepenthes tank, it goes beteen the >plug and the wall socket. If the tank were to become live and you >touched it, the electricity would be cut off immediately, so quick that >you probably wouldn't even notice. They used to be called earth leakage >circuit Absolutely agree here. You have to use an RCD with any electrical device that is liable to become live. The RCD is designed to operate before you feel anything. The standard disconnection time is 30mS in the EC at least. However it should not be assumed the RCD will automatically make an unsafe piece of equipment safe. It is a mechanical device and as such is liable to failure, regardless of how reliable these pieces of equipment are. >breakers, I don't know what they are called in other countries. I do >remember, though, to take the breaker off the tank when I go on >holiday, it can trip sometimes for no reason. We don't want to lose any >CP growers, there are not enough of us as it is ! -- Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk ########################################## # New Plant Sales list available now at: # # www.pwilson.demon.co.uk # ########################################## ################### From: CMcdon0923@aol.com Sun Jan 6 14:41:57 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:41:49 EST Subject: Re: how many is enough of each one? Personally I like to maintain, at minimum, three examples of anything I am growing (mainly Sarrenecia), and preferably up to six of each. This ensures that if I would lose a specimen or two, I would still have sufficient plants remaining to rebuild the stock of that particular species (etc.). Craig McDonald "individual devoted hobbyist" ################### From: kit@kithalsted.com Sun Jan 6 15:09:38 2002 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:50:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Foil in terrarium-risk of electric shock At 6:51 AM -0800 1/6/02, david ahrens wrote: >With reference to posting about earthing foil in a terrarium, I >always use a residual current device on my Nepenthes tank, it goes >beteen the plug and the wall socket. If the tank were to become live >and you touched it, the electricity would be cut off immediately, so >quick that you probably wouldn't even notice. They used to be called >earth leakage circuit breakers, I don't know what they are called in >other countries. Here in the US, they're known as GFIs or GFCIs, for Ground-Fault Interruptors or Ground-Fault Current Interruptors. -Kit -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin "...qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (...if you would have peace, be prepared for war) -Flavius Vegetius Renatus ################### From: voodoodancer@hotmail.com Sun Jan 6 15:35:12 2002 Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 18:35:11 -0500 Subject: Subject: Re: Foil in terrarium-risk of electric shock In the USA these devices are call Ground fault current interrupters, or GFI for short. They are designed to reduce the risk of electrical shock. Wh