################### From: Dionaea@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:05:30 EST Subject: Pets and CP Looking at pot of Byblis aquatica that has been dying ever since i moved it to the Pinguicula window sill, I was all excited because I thought I saw a new Pinguicula take hold in that pot. Then I looked at some of my other pings (which for the first time in my 20 years of growing CP have not died yet and look like they were surviving the winter OK). Then to my horror, I saw the pot. It looke like some insect had been eating it. Quickly I came to the conclusion that insects don't usually scatter the leaves everywhere - it had to be something else... What caused this plant to look like something enjoyed a wonderful Pinguicula salad? Well, it turns out that my female Pacific Parrotlet decided that she had had enough of here own food and wanted to try something else! Luckily, it was not a prized plant, but an unidentified Ping that has not yet flowered for me yet. Moral of the story, if you protect your plants at all cost! Even from Pets that you think will never be interested in them. Now to the safety question: Are Pinguicula safe for Parrots to eat? No, i am not contemplating feeding her more, I just want to make sure that she won't get sick... Anyone? Hope you had a wonderful new year. ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 22:30:58 +0100 Subject: Small D. montana tomentosa flowering Hi, I have a D. montana tomentosa, Serra da Canastra that has started to send up a flower stalk. It is only about 2 cm in diameter and one of its siblings, which is a little bit larger, show no sign of flowering (yet). Do this species usually flower at this size, anyone with experience? Does it require cross-pollination to produce seed? Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: "A.J. Paton" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:03:45 -0000 Subject: Rampant sphagnum Hi list & happy new year! I am in the process of carrying out some much needed gardening in my greenhouse, to clear away all of the dead material etc. A large amount of sphagnum moss has gradually been taking over an area under a bench. Most of this has burried D. capensis & binata plants - what's that?...you think I should let it carry on growing? :-O. Anyway, as these CP's seem to grow quite fast, I was wondering how other people "managed" their sphagnum - should I be pruning the moss regularly, or should the plants come bursting through the moss again when spring arrives? Now that I have a bucket full of moss, what is the best way to store it? - would it be OK to leave it in the bucket in the greenhouse until spring, when it can be used for repotting (& my Mum's hanging baskets!)?. Cheers, A.J. ################### From: Bravoanus1@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 20:45:16 EST Subject: Re: cephalotus In a message dated 01-01-01 03:36:24 EST, you write: << Hi, if anyone has any cephalotus (not giant) for sale in the USA please email me.. thank you! :) >> I am interested in these, too...bravoanus1@aol.com ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:27:38 +0930 Subject: Tropical Drosera I'm just back from 3 weeks holiday. At the start of my holiday I went with some friends to Litchfield National Park, which is about 150km from Darwin. I'd seen drosera there a few years ago, and I was keeping a look out for them, but I didn't see any in what I thought were the obvious places. The last place we went to in the Park is a spot called the Bulli Rockholes. This is very popular with the tourists as it consists of a series of rock pools, through which there is a constant flow of water (even during the Dry Season). In the peak of the Wet Season, the water is more a torrential flood. When we got there, the first thing I noticed was that there were drosera in abundance. I know very little about drosera. These were all small rosettes (no more than 2 cm diameter) that were a dark pink-red in colour. Nearly all had flower stalks (and pink flowers). Possibly they were d. petiolaris, but I haven't seen a picture of one and only have a description from the "Savage Garden" as a guide. (If someone could point me to a website with good photos, I might be able to make a more positive identification). They were all growing very near to the water's edge on the slime that collected around other plants roots. Many appeared to be growing on the surface of the boulders and these reminded me very much of starfish clinging to marine rocks. I would very much recommend this location to any CP enthusiast visiting Darwin. It's worth visiting for the various pools, and small waterfalls - the abundance and proximity of the drosera are a definite bonus. Being a National Park, the flora is protected. I did remove a few dead flower stalks and when I got home I tapped them over a damp sand/vermiculite mixture, but I don't really know what I'm doing so if anything springs up I'll be pleasantly surprised. Cheers, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:59:59 +1100 Subject: Re: Tropical Drosera Kevin, By your description, they sound like D. burmannii... but I might be wrong. Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 ph: (03) 62262624 ################### From: Brewer Charles E PHDN Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:04:05 -0500 Subject: RE: cephalotus Howdy, I didn't have a name attached with this email, so I will address you as Howdy :), Anyway, if you are still interested in Cephs, please let me know and I will send details. Thanks, Charles Va. Beach, Va. > << Hi, if anyone has any cephalotus (not giant) for sale in the USA please > > email me.. thank you! :) > >> > I am interested in these, too...bravoanus1@aol.com ################### From: MCliff428@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:24:15 EST Subject: Pinquicula in the Wild In the past year, I have visited various bogs in the Northeast. I have seen Drosera, Sarracenia and Utricularia in abundance, but I have never seen Pinquicula. From what I understand, Butterworts don't grow in bogs, but what type of environment do they grow in? I am interested in viewing this genus in the wild, but I can never seem to find it. Does anyone know of a Pinquicula viewing spot in the Northeast? What type of environment would it grow in? What type of areas should I look for? Thanks. Michael Clifford Morristown, NJ ################### From: chamb@u.arizona.edu Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:30:17 -0700 Subject: Re: Pinquicula in the Wild At 10:34 AM 1/2/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >In the past year, I have visited various bogs in the Northeast. I have seen >Drosera, Sarracenia and Utricularia in abundance, but I have never seen >Pinquicula. From what I understand, Butterworts don't grow in bogs, but what >type of environment do they grow in? I am interested in viewing this genus >in the wild, but I can never seem to find it. Does anyone know of a >Pinquicula viewing spot in the Northeast? What type of environment would it >grow in? What type of areas should I look for? Thanks. In northern Michigan, Pinguicula vulgaris grows in areas called marl fens. These are calcareous seeps usually in the form of a wide delta along a stream leading into a lake or the Great Lakes. These areas are open wetlands, without trees or shrubs, at most a cover of Cyperaceae. They usually have a characteristic white-ashy colored mud (marl) but are perhaps even more recognizable by the large numbers of CP present, in particular, Sarracenia purpurea. Drosera linearis, D. rotundifolia (and hybrids between these Drosera), Utricularia cornuta, U. intermedia, and Pinguicula vulgaris are frequently found growing with the Sarracenia, but each in slightly different microhabitats (on hummocks vs. wet depressions between them). The Pinguicula seems most particular about its substrate and is not found in all marl fens, even those hosting the other species. In Michigan it is restricted to fens along the Great Lakes, but I was surprised to find it growing in mossy cracks in boulders farther north in Ontario (boulders are so rare in Michigan, perhaps it would grow on them there if there were any!) Keep an eye open for Pinguicula wherever you find Primula mistassinica. Michael Chamberland ################### From: Phil Sheridan Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1981 15:17:11 -0800 Subject: Cephalotus Hi Folks: I have noticed several requests for Cephalotus purchase in the United States. Please note that we have this plant in stock. Our catalog may be found at our web site at www.pitcherplant.org. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:55:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: ICPS in 2001 Hey folks, A new year has come, and my Star Trek 2000 calendar has been replaced, to my co-workers chagrin, with a new Star Trek calendar (Kirk is looking tough!). And with the new year, I thought that somebody should welcome in the new board of directors for the ICPS. Leaving our board are Madeleine Groves, Joe Mazrimas, and Rick Walker. Our new board consists of: David Gray--new to the board Cindy Slezak--new to the board John Brittnacher--new to the board ---and persisting with the board, in alphabetical order.... Jay Lechtman Carl Mazur Barry Meyers-Rice Jan Schlauer Those of you who attended the ICPS 2000 conference met David and Cindy, who organized the event. They are amazingly energetic. John Brittnacher has been in charge of the seedbank and web ring, and has done great things for both. All hail the new order! To infinity, and beyond! Never surrender, never give up, full speed ahead! Live long and you know what! Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:31:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neat photos Hi everyone. This past summer during the ICPS Conference, Andrew Broome from New Zealand came by to see my collection along with photographer friend Peter Sebborne. Peter took many photos of my many collections of cp's and indoor lowland growing chamber. Andrew's excellent web page can be found by going to: http://photos.yahoo.com/ajbroome You will find all the photos that were taken and some excellent other photos of their travels on the southeast coast USA. Andrew did me great justice and I want the world to know how thankful I am. My best wishes to you Andrew and to you Peter for an excellent 2001 life experience. I know I'm looking forward to it. Phil Faulisi ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 18:36:03 -0800 Subject: CP Listserv Archives Updated Archives the for this CP listserv from 1990-2000 have been added to the CP database at http://www2.labs.agilent.com/botany/cp/html/marchive.htm The messages can be displayed sorted by author, thread, subject or date. Best regards, -- Rick Walker ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:04:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy Dear Tommy > i have encounter a problem that most cper and plant lovers know, a > missing of space in my room! Since a good part of my cp are Sarracenia, i > tought i could try to put all of them, or at least most of them, outside for > winter (i live in Quebec, between Montreal and Qc on the north shore). Since > few species like S.leuco. and S.flava come from southern location and > hybrids, i fear that the cold outside who kill those species, inlikely the > S.purpurea, who are already there... Well, you're on the right track here... However, S. luecophylla and S. flava are both hardy plants. You assumption about S. purpurea is also correct, *but* some people still believe that the "S. purpurea" from the Florida panhandle are _S. purpurea_. If you have these plants, they will not make through your winter outside. The two species that not so hardy are _S.psittacina_ and _S. rosea_. Most lump rosea in with purpurea. If you grow the plants in pots, then you'll really need a cold frame. Without one, you run the risk of drying out your plants in the dry winter air. This is a far more important point than worrying about the temps... An exposed pot with any hardy plant in it is more likely than not to die. If you follow your plan with the picnic table, I would also mulch them with something that has a consistentency similiar to wet wood chips in order to help maintain the pots at a decent moisture level. Check and water as needed (it's difficult to tell if the soil is frozen or dry) or shovel snow on top. Oh, if you still have your Sarracenia inside, it's most likely way too late to move them out... They would die just from the shock. It takes them about a month to adjust and get ready for dormancy. Dave Evans ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 00:24:20 -0500 Subject: Question about Sarracenia dormancy (with S. rosea) and other southern Sarracenia ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:15 PM > > Well, you're on the right track here... However, S. luecophylla and S. > flava are both hardy plants. You assumption about S. purpurea is also > correct, *but* some people still believe that the "S. purpurea" from the > Florida panhandle are _S. purpurea_. If you have these plants, they will > not make through your winter outside. The two species that not so hardy are > _S.psittacina_ and _S. rosea_. > Most lump rosea in with purpurea. I have a question. What are peoples experience with S. purpurea burkii in a more northern climate with dormancy? As a grower in Florida I do not understand that it is often lumped in with S. psittacina as a hard plant to put through dormancy in more northern locations. Yet the natural range of S. psittacina goes into extreme southeastern SC along the Savannah River, where I have seem them myself. Climatically this is in a more northern USDA zone than the range of S. leucophylla (which shares a deep southern region with S. purpurea burkii) or S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea). I am of the opinion that all of these species can take very cold conditions and are all equally hardy on the short term. I think it must be duration of cold period (months) that must weaken the plants and allow disease. The extremes in temperature fluctuation in habitat are severe. From below freezing to highs in the 70s sometimes in the same day or week. This year it is very cold, well below normal. But even in normal winters it is very cold out in the woods in the deep southern Pine Flatwoods during the nights. I just can not understand how one can pull S. leucophylla through dormancy in Penn, NJ or Mi and not pull S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea) through using the same methods. Take care, ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida USA > ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 15:52:42 +0930 Subject: Drosera Thanks to those who emailed me regarding the Drosera I saw at Litchfield Nat. Park. The description given by Fernando Rivadavia - "the ones I saw were also about 2cm in diameter and dark pink-red in color. The leaves were wedge-shaped, with very short petioles nearly indistiguishable from the lamina with the sticky tentacles." matches the plants I saw and therefore it would appear that they are the ubiquitous D. burmannii. I'm sure the flowers were pink but I can't remember if they were open. Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 01:58:44 EST Subject: Miguel Hi All, Sorry to post this here. Would Miguel who wanted the catalog please e-mail me with your address again? It went bye-bye. Thanks, Joe Griffin ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:01:09 +0000 Subject: Experience? Anyone out there ever put video on a web page? If so, respond to paultemple@bigfoot.com if willing to share knowledge. This is a CP related question! Cheers Pau ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:36:35 +0000 Subject: Erratum Hi all. How are you? My absence was caused by Netscape6 (avoid it until it's bugs ae fixed) so my numerous responses to all those Pinguicula moranensis discussions never arrived here on the listserver. Then again, you all missed my best wishes for the new cntury and millenium, now that it's finally arrived! But neither point is why I write. No, I write instead because I just received the new CP Newsletter, or more specifically because of an error in it. Now believe me when I say that in addition to being quite unable to upstage Adrian Slack, I also have no intention of trying (ever!). However, I was quite astounded to see myslef mentioned in amoungst the various articles designed to give tribute to Adrian. I'm a lucky man. I've managed to befriend so many of the well known names in the CP world. The famous, the technicians, the explorers, the hobbiests and the commercial suppliers. So I can count Paul Gardner, who bought Marston Exotics from Adrian, as a friend (though it's rare that we ever see each other). But I'm afraid my friend has become a victim of my ability (I don't know how I developed it) to promote myself. Therefore, I find myself accidentally elevated by Paul from having been a member of the British Carnivorous Plant society to it's co-founder - with Adrian!. Oh how I could wish that it were so. But it isn't and wasn't. From memory, I believe Adrian co-founded the CPS with John Watson (a now famous British horticulturalist). I'm not sure if John Sirkett was also a co-founder but he may have been, or joined almost immediately after the start. I joined about 1 year after the start. Although I was on the committee, this is hardly a claim to co-founding claim. It was an honest mistake by Paul, but I can't let it go. Meanwhile, well done Barry - its a totally different CPN that pays just homage to the man most of us "oldies" think of as the father of the modern CP hobby. Not because he was first (Adrian always owned up to gaining much of his expertise from others who started earlier) , not because he was "best", but simply because his book made the hobby accessible and possible to all. It was a great idea and fun to learn more not only of Adrian but of those who knew him. Cheers Paul ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:14:00 EST Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy (with S. rosea) and other southern Sa... In a message dated 1/2/2001 11:32:50 PM Central Standard Time, stovehouse@earthlink.net writes: << ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Evans" To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:15 PM Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy > > Well, you're on the right track here... However, S. luecophylla and S. > flava are both hardy plants. You assumption about S. purpurea is also > correct, *but* some people still believe that the "S. purpurea" from the > Florida panhandle are _S. purpurea_. If you have these plants, they will > not make through your winter outside. The two species that not so hardy are > _S.psittacina_ and _S. rosea_. > Most lump rosea in with purpurea. I have a question. What are peoples experience with S. purpurea burkii in a more northern climate with dormancy? As a grower in Florida I do not understand that it is often lumped in with S. psittacina as a hard plant to put through dormancy in more northern locations. Yet the natural range of S. psittacina goes into extreme southeastern SC along the Savannah River, where I have seem them myself. Climatically this is in a more northern USDA zone than the range of S. leucophylla (which shares a deep southern region with S. purpurea burkii) or S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea). I am of the opinion that all of these species can take very cold conditions and are all equally hardy on the short term. I think it must be duration of cold period (months) that must weaken the plants and allow disease. The extremes in temperature fluctuation in habitat are severe. From below freezing to highs in the 70s sometimes in the same day or week. This year it is very cold, well below normal. But even in normal winters it is very cold out in the woods in the deep southern Pine Flatwoods during the nights. I just can not understand how one can pull S. leucophylla through dormancy in Penn, NJ or Mi and not pull S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea) through using the same methods. Take care, ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida USA > I agree with Mike, I have never had a problem with S. pupurea burkeii, and in some of the past winters (like the current one) my outdoor bogs have been solid blocks of ice for a couple of months. I can not remember a single winter related loss of any Sarracenia in 25 years of growing them outdoors year round here in Memphis. That includes leucophylla, alata, psitticina, etc. The only problem ones likely to encounter with winter temperatures is extremely cold wind chill, so if the bog is protected from the wind there should be no problem. Our night temperatures here have been in the single digits farenheit for about a month, and all Sarracenias can handle temperatures like this with no problem. In fact, I dont believe we have been above freezing for 3 weeks. But these temperatures are much different than 30-60 below freezing that northern areas can experience with wind chill. The other problem would be a late snow cover after the plants have resumed growth. Although April snows have not adversely affected my plants here, cold wet snow in the spring have been known to cause vft's to rot. Of the Sarracenias, the only plant I have a slight problem with is alata flowers which can rot if they experience freezing temperatures after they break forth from the rhizome. I have remedied this by keeping flooding the bog in late January to keep the plants from flowering too early. Michael Catalani Memphis TN USA ################### From: Kit Halsted Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:33:17 -0500 Subject: Re:Experience? I can't design my way out of a paper bag, but the techie stuff is no problem... See for my experiment with video on the web, feel free to ask if you have any questions. -Kit At 4:20 AM -0800 1/3/01, Paul Temple wrote: >Anyone out there ever put video on a web page? >If so, respond to if willing to share knowledge. > >This is a CP related question! > >Cheers > >Pau -- Kit Halsted Network Administrator, Blue Dingo/GB ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:08:47 -0800 Subject: Bruce Bednar Hi everyone, Does anyone know if Bruce is still online? His website (Lee's Botanical) appears to be defunct. Thanks in advance. Chris ################### From: CALIFCARN@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:12:08 EST Subject: Re: The Newsletter Hey folks, Peter here at California Carnivores: I just wanted to congratulate Barry and the staff at the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter for their superb December issue on Adrian Slack. I found it quite enjoyable and it was great to see a photo of Adrian, who's looking great. A most enjoyable issue, and I know many people put a lot of effort into it. Happy New Year. ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:02:30 -0500 Subject: storing Drosera gemmae > I'd appreciate advice on whether or not it's possible to store Drosera > gemmae for 2 to 3 months until the blizzards here in North America have > ended (at least for Atlanta.) I have D. pulchella and nitidula that are > literally bursting with gemmae and would like to wait until March before > putting them in the outside bogs. > > Atlanta has had it's 3rd coldest December on record and it seems to freeze > every night now so January and February will probably be much the same. I > thought of storing them in damp paper towels and putting them in the > refrigerator just above freezing. Anyone have any experience with this? > > Thanks for your help, > David > Atlanta > > P.S. Someone mentioned earlier that they had trouble getting their pygmy > Drosera to produce gemmae. I grow mine under lights in the basement so > they are at a fairly constant temperature now, probably somewhere around > 65 to 70 F, warming slightly while the lights are on. I think the trick > was to reduce the photo period to probably somewhere around 8 hours a day. > Within about 4 weeks they have produced gemmae. ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:08:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy (with S. rosea) and other southern Sa... Dear Mike and Michael, Both S.psittacina and S. rosea don't seem to be very flower-bud hardy when grown outside in bogs, in New Jersey. Yes, all Sarracenia are hardy plants. This is a point I have been telling people for years... These two, they do not seem as hardy as the rest of Sarracenia. Even when the flowers do form, they tend to be deformed and most never set seed. These are symptoms of not being flower-bud hardy in the New Jersey climate zone. Plants that show these qualilties can be expected to do worst (fewer flowers, more leaf damage and more deaths) in colder climate zones. Cold frames were invented specifically for the winter storage of such plants, among other uses, like keeping woody buds dormant into the growning season so they can be grafted onto activity growing stock. Dave Evans ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:30:52 +0000 Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy Tom, > i have encounter a problem that most cper and plant lovers > know, a >missing of space in my room! Since a good part of my cp are >Sarracenia, i tought i could try to put all of them, or at least most >of them, outside for winter (i live in Quebec, between Montreal and Qc >on the north shore). Since few species like S.leuco. and S.flava come >from southern location and hybrids, i fear that the cold outside who >kill those species, inlikely the S.purpurea, who are already there... >I am thinking of building a kind of cold frame from next winter, but i >just tought an easy way to do such thing: do placing all my plants >under a picnic table, cover with a thick plastic like the one they make >car shelter, would be enough to protect them? I have some space in the >garage too, which protect plants from wind, and a little from cold, but >the temp do go under 0degC there too... Any idea on how to keep these >plants outside safely would be appreciated. Thanks a lot and happy new >year all! > Unless you can find someone else with experience growing these plants outside in your growing area I suspect you are just going to have to experiment with plants that you are prepared to lose if necessary. Sometimes its the only way. I suspect however, that your arrangement will suit fine. With some hardy plants it is not so much the freezing that kills them but desiccation. With the soil around the roots frozen the plants are not able to replace moisture stripped from the leaves by cold winds. Your proposed shelter sounds as if it will eliminate this problem. One other thing to bear in mind. Watch out for problems once the thaw sets in. As the soil thaws it allows pockets of moisture to build up in the crowns of the rhizome. This encourages botrytis mould, which can multiply very quickly and kill your plant. With a little introduce aeration you should be able to minimise this but I would not recommend you grow S. psittacina outside as this is by far the most susceptible species. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:38:02 +0000 Subject: UKCPS Newsletter Hi, This is a message for UKCPS members only. The last newsletter of the year has been delayed but is at the printers at the moment. UK members should recieve it by the end of this month - overseas members will be about five days later. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:30:34 +0000 Subject: Re: storing Drosera gemmae David, > >> I'd appreciate advice on whether or not it's possible to store Drosera >> gemmae for 2 to 3 months until the blizzards here in North America have >> ended (at least for Atlanta.) I have D. pulchella and nitidula that are >> literally bursting with gemmae and would like to wait until March before >> putting them in the outside bogs. >> >From memory it all depends on the species. Some species produce small and quite flat gemmae, like fish scales. These can be kept dormant by storing them in wet paper towels in bags in the fridge. The other species that produce larger and "fatter" gemmae do not store in the fridge. They will try to grow whatever temperature they are stored at. >From memory both D. pulchella and D. nitidula both produce fish scale like gemmae and should store well in the fridge. I once tried keeping some D. pulchella gemmae in the fridge for six months with reasonable success. The longer you keep them the less survive. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:43:51 +0100 Subject: Missed Hi folks, sorry, but somehow I have missed the cp digest 2419. Could someone please forward it to me? Thanks! Marcus Ah... and: Happy New Year! ################### From: "Tommy Landry" Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 23:32:10 Subject: Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating) Hi list, i have a problem with my pots of pygmies sundews: all the plants are overwhelmed by little mosses... Is there any tips to avoid these to grow from the peat moss? Thanks Tom ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:48:53 +0100 Subject: French conservationists wanted! I would be interested to contact somebody in France involved in the conservation projects of the Dionee association (or other cons. projects), especially about Aldrovanda. Thanks and good growing! Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy (responsible of the Conservation Project of the Italian CP Society) ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:29:07 +0100 Subject: Re: storing Drosera gemmae > From memory both D. pulchella and D. nitidula both produce fish scale > like gemmae and should store well in the fridge. I once tried keeping > some D. pulchella gemmae in the fridge for six months with reasonable > success. The longer you keep them the less survive. I made the same experience with D. pulchella and D. x 'Lake Badgerup'. Don't forget to use some fungicide on the wet paper you put the gemmae in. Take care, Marcus ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:08:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sarracenia dormancy To the individual who lives in Quebec, here is an idea that may work for you. In my experience with Sarracenia and cold winters I have grown them in many climatic extremes. I live in central California but used to live in Rochester, NY where winers are similar to that of Quebec. If you have land space available in your back yard you can dig a trench deep enough to place the pots into and cover them with a thick mulching of leaves, pine needles, dry peat moss etc. I would first dust the rhizomes with powdered sulfer or spray with a very good fungicide. Under these conditions I had noticed that even my flytraps stayed somewhat green even under the deepest layers of snow. Most of the southern species of sarracenia are somewhat hardy, but they will be much happier if their entire root system does not freeze solid. Although they may surpirse you. This may not be the best solution according to some people, but it is a safe one. Mulching saved many of my plants in the past. Good luck. Phil ################### From: "Weaver, Kevin" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:43:35 -0800 Subject: Pictures Hello, Guess what Kevin got for Christmas? A scanner! Yayy! So, if anyone's interested in seeing pictures from my small collection of CP's I grow outdoors (and a few indoors) in San Francisco, please email me and I'll send them to you. I also have 3 pictures of the Nepenthes inside of the Conservatory of Flowers, which still won't be open for another 3 years. Kevin ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 13:10:20 EST Subject: Re: Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating) Tom, Nuking the peat in a microwave for about nine minutes seems to cut down on a lot of the unwanted flora an fauna. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:49:49 +0000 Subject: Dumb Question No. 1 OK. Comes a time when everyone has to prove themselves dumb. So to anyone not already convinced of my idiocy, here's a really dump question that was prompted by Tommy's "Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating)". Tommy isn't alone, most of us get plagued by moss overtaking a pot. So why do plants in wild habitats not get similarly overcome by rampant moss growth? I can't believe it's own to moss eating animals as they surely would eat the precious plants first. My experience of wandering in habitats is that moss is not a problem, it does not seem to present a risk and plants can mature without being overcome. Any views? Cheers Paul ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 12:18:57 +0000 Subject: Numbers (- Time I started another argument!) This listserver has been very polite for a while! (I wonder if my absence had anything to do with it?). So, at great risk (we will see if the risk is realised), I pose the question: Are CP'ers the laziest plant enthusiasts in the world of horticulture? Let me cite 3 other groups who rank up there in the clouds with CP'ers, as fanatical collectors with significant membership of world wide and international societies. The examples would be for Cacti, Orchids and Alpine Plants. In all three cases, look at the plant lists circulated by these societies, both by members and by the societies themselves, either for plants or seeds. Then look too at the commercial outlets and the plant or seed lists they produce. Now compare these with the same for CP's. See a difference. No? You're not looking closely enough. Try again. Got it now? Tried glasses? Ah! Now you have it. All three not only show a plant name, but whenever possible they show a Collection Number assigned to the plant when the plant or its parent was first collected in the wild. When did you see such a thing in the CP world? This is not a vacuous point just to raise an argument. Some of us like to hope we are contribuing in some small way to conservation. Should a plant die out in the wild, we can hope to replace it (no, no no, please don't restart that argument), even if wee do have to ensure we use enough material to guarantee genetic variation. But how could we hope to do that if we don't know a plant's origins? I'm willing to bet that not one of the professionals amoungst us (paid botanists of any persuasion: taxonomists, conservationists, etc.) will argue against the need for Collection Numbers to be assigned to wild collected plants (I'm not going to get distracted here by discussion of the legality of plant collecting in the wild). So, I seriously hope this does not attract trivial or cynical responses. But I also hope to provoke a serious discussion from all those who seriously care about the identity of their plants. So I am truly asking the question: are CP people really as lazy (with regard to assigning Collection Numbers) as seems true from reading published lists and, if not, where have all those Collection Numbers gone? Regards Paul ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:14:35 EST Subject: Re: Dumb Question No. 1 Paul, Not a dumb question at all. I can only speculate on the possibilities... First, pygmies in the wild seem to grow in much harsher conditions than we grow them. How many pictures in Lowrie's books have you seen them and tuberous and even D. binata growing in pure to almost-pure sand? Second, are you using Australian peat? Mine is usually Canadian, so even though peat does come from live sphagnum, it doesn'nt mean that the same mosses and small animals have to be found in peat from halfway around the world. I was thinking that the import/export regulations are strict partially due to soil, and not just plants. The moss that springs up in Canadian peat is not subjected to the harsh climates that these plants are, so the spores are well established in the peat we use, coming from a damper year-round area. Okay, those are some of my ideas. What does everyone else have? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:25:23 -0500 Subject: collection numbers > are CP people really as lazy (with regard to assigning >Collection Numbers) as seems true from reading published lists and, if >not, where have all those Collection Numbers gone? I don't have collection numbers, but am rabid about keeping collection data on the seed I collect. I always pass that information along whenever I distrbute seed and usually indicate when the seed are wild collected or taken from plants in my collection. Does that count!!!!! David Atlanta ################### From: MCliff428@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 17:03:28 EST Subject: Re: Dumb Question No. 1 On trips to Canada, I have seen Sarracenia purpurea that were literally buried in Sphagnum. Only the opening and lip of the pitcher were showing. I suppose that these plants reseed themselves so often that they can afford to become buried in Sphagnum and still carry on a healthy population. ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 15:57:56 +1100 Subject: Utric seed Hi All I have a very limited number of Australian Utric seeds available for trade if anyone is interested. I am searching for U. inaequalis (volubilis), 'Tomoku' (alpina x endressi), U. amethystina, U. macrorhiza, U. infalata, U. quelchii, U. humboldtii, U. campbelliana, U. jamesoniana, U. asplundii or anything interesting or epiphitic. I have FRESH collected seed of U. uniflora, U. lateriflora (typical and white flower) U. uliginosa, U. minutissima, U. dichotoma, and U styermorkii. I also have fresh Stylidium graminifolium seed (The largest form with probably the most beautiful flowers). Thanks Greg ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:56:14 +0100 Subject: Re: Dumb Question No. 1 >Tommy isn't alone, most of us get plagued by moss overtaking a pot. So >why do plants in wild habitats not get similarly overcome by rampant >moss growth? I can't believe it's own to moss eating animals as they >surely would eat the precious plants first. My experience of wandering >in habitats is that moss is not a problem, it does not seem to present a >risk and plants can mature without being overcome. > >Any views? We usually grow our plants in very protected conditions (greenhouses and similar) and there mosses can grow very well. On the other hand, the conditions in the wild are very difficult and dramatic: plants have to resist to horrible weather conditions among which heavy rains with soil movement and erosion. And there the small mosses can't grow very well and must fight hard to survive. Did you ever try growing pigmies on very sandy soil kept outdoors under the rain? I can ensure no much moss will grow there! Also in the wild, however, there are places where mosses grow well; in most of these places CPs don't grow. One of the exceptions is Sphagnum moss, on which a number of species lives well. But it is not an easy life: plants have to climb very fast there not to be overgrown by the moss and they form a slender stem instead of the typical rosette of leaves which they form on pure peat. Good growing! Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:56:18 +0100 Subject: Re: Numbers (- Time I started another argument!) >Ah! Now you have it. All three not only show a plant name, but >whenever possible they show a Collection Number assigned to the plant >when the plant or its parent was first collected in the wild. When did >you see such a thing in the CP world? A number of growers consider this very useful and important and keep the data about provenance of plants. The problem is that many others are not interested about this and don't care about the data (in fact this effort is time consuming when you grow many species); and so many information is lost when the plants are spread among the collectors. It would be very useful to define a standard method to indicate these data so to make it quick and easy. I'm sure many growers would cooperate when told about the importance of this practice. Happy growing to everybody! Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:32:32 -0500 Subject: Sarracenia dormancy Hello all, Digging a pit to put dormant Sarracenia in sounds like a very good idea. I have done this, when I lived in Colorado, to create long stemmed Tulips, using sand instead of leaves or pine needles. One major consideration is, this should probably be done before perma-frost sets in. I would think it might be a major undertaking this time of year, in Quebec. Just a thought. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, (perma-frost free) Florida USA ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating) Tom, > i have a problem with my pots of pygmies sundews: all the plants are >overwhelmed by little mosses... Is there any tips to avoid these to grow >from the peat moss? Thanks > I think if you substitute the top 5mm or so of soil with some medium sized lime free grit this helps with the moss problems though they will inevitably grow through in a few years still. I have used granite grit in the past when I can get it as the grey colour contrasts well with the plants and it is guaranteed to be lime free. The only problem with this is when starting new plants from gemmae since there is not much in the grit to retain moisture. Once established the plant's roots will have penetrated to the peat below the grit. With care though the gemmae will establish okay. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thorbj=F8rn_Str=F8m-Hansen?= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:52:47 +0100 Subject: Greenhouses: Poly-carbonate versus ordinary glass I have been a "small-scale" CP grower for some years, with a collection of Sarracenias and the ordinary Droseras, Pinguiculas and Utricularias. In order to expand the collection, I have decided to build a regular greenhouse (approx. 10 m2) in a sunny corner of my garden. However, at the local greenhouse supplier I was confronted with the question: should it be with ordinary glass or with poly-carbonate (double layer plates)? My first decision was to take poly-carbonate as it provides better insulation than ordinary glass. Since I am living in Denmark, which occasionally gets quite cold during winter time, this aspect is certainly worth taking into account. On the other hand, the poly-carbonate is not fully transparent and I am concerned about reducing the light intensity. So, I would be very interested to learn from experience that you may have with poly-carbonate in greenhouses for growing CP. Thanks, Thorbj\370rn Bagsv(1/2)rd Denmark ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:26:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Polycarbonate vs glass If you use polycarbonate panels you will still get more than enough light transmission for excellent growth of almost any plant, even cacti. Unless you experience low amounts of full clear sunshine I would go the extra mile for the polycarb panels. They also insulate way better than orginary glass, are resistant to hail or falling obstacles like pine cones and even baseballs :) and will cut down some on harmful UV. Twin wall polycarbonate does cost quite a lot, but it is an excellent glazing material. Most high quality commercial horticulturists I ave ever known or visited use this material either on the roof alone with something else on the side walls, or they use it entirely. They must know better than we do I would think. Again, it is personal preference. Glass will work just fine but poly has more to offer for permanance, damage resistance, insulation and UV protection. One more thing....poly helps break up and distrbute the sunlight rather than allowing it to beat down on the plants in full force. This would allow for less use of shade cloth. Have fun with your new greenhouse whatever your decision. Once you have it you'll wonder how you got by for so long without one. Phil ################### From: "mike wilder" Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 20:26:10 -0000 Subject: d. montana var. tomentosa flowering size hello, recently someone asked about typical flowering size for d. montana var. tomentosa. i have little experience with this plant but thought i'd write since no one else did. my plant was grown from seed sown last spring, and it is just now flowering at about 3cm. i also grow var. schwackii (spelling.?), but it has so far refused to grow any larger than 1.4 cm. --mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:55:59 EST Subject: Re: New Zealand Sphagnum Moss Source Hi All, A source was given to me for NZ sphagnum, Ann Mann's Orchids if Florida. Well just to pass this on, they no longer sell moss and deal esclusively with orchids and foggers for greenhouses. Regards, Joe Griffn Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:12:13 -0500 Subject: Sundews for Sale (Cheap) Hey there, CP buddies... I've got to get rid of the following plants. Most are leftovers from the last plant sale. This time, ALL PLANTS MUST BE SOLD! -US Only. -$20 minimum order. PLEASE INCLUDE YOUR ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER. -Add $5.00 additional for packaging and shipping. All packages sent Priority Mail. -Plants will be shipped bare-rooted, in plastic. Size is indicated in description. -Payment should be made following receipt of plants. -No returns or refunds, sorry :( I reserve the right to make substitutes if necessary. Please list subs and I will try my best to accommodate you. DROSERA - Sundews (quantity available in parentheses) admirabilis, nice S African rosette w.wedge shaped leaves 1" wide (3) $5ea binata T form (dormant) (2+) $3ea capillaris SE USA, 1" wide (10) flowering size, 2 for $5 capensis alba, green form, to 1" wide (9) 2 for $5 capensis giant (5) 2"+ $4ea capensis red, to 1" wide (8+) 2 for $5 hamiltonii, West Australian <1" wide, (2+) $3ea intermedia x capillaris, natural hybrid, 1" wide (6+) flowering size $4ea madagascariensis Rhodesia (4") (1) $5ea nidiformis, recent S African discovery, 1" (4) $3ea peltata, tuberous, fuzzy white sepals, 1/2" wide from seed (many) 5 for $5 "x Nightmare"" = rotundifolia x intermedia, discovered by Jim Bockowski in the NJ Pine Barrens, can grow to ~6" wide! <1" wide (15+) 2 for $5 spatulata 'pink' (Kawanam Mire, Kyushu, Japan) (12) flowering size 2 for $5 spatulata (Queenstown, Tazmania) (9) flowering size 2 for $5 x watari 1/2" easy and vigorous spatulata x anglica (12+), 2 for $5 x "snydermoto" to 1/2" (24+), 3 for $5 Happy Growing! SundewMatt http://www.geocities.com/sundewmatt ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:51:50 -0500 Subject: RE: d. montana var. tomentosa flowering size >recently someone asked about typical flowering size for d. montana var. tomentosa. My v. tomentosa have flowered on what I consider very small plants, probably just a little larger than the flowering size of brevifolia. I haven't measured flowering tomentosa but am guessing that they were less than 1/2 inch (about 2.2 cm). David Atlanta ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:16:28 -0600 Subject: Re: Greenhouses: Poly-carbonate versus ordinary glass I have worked with double-layered poly houses for years in retail and wholesale horticulture, as well as at home, with my own little poly house. Though the light transmission may be reduced somewhat compared to glass, it really seems quite adequate for all the uses I've seen it in (growing annuals, perennials, etc.). The only greenhouse covering I've seen that is really poor for light transmission is old fiberglass, which degrades substantially with age. The poly is replaced every three to four years. Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:19:47 -0600 Subject: Re: Polycarbonate Ooops... I was talking about polyethylene film, actually, not rigid polycarbonate panels... that will teach me to read and respond too quickly! I DON'T have much experience with these rigid panels (too expensive for my budget). Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: Tim Metcalf Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:41:38 -0800 Subject: Greenhouses: Poly-carbonate versus glass Dear Thorbj, Here in the central valley of California we don't have hail but have intense sunlight eight months of the year so have had the double wall polycarbonate age and yellow in five years. Also, at low sun angles (Winter) the light transmission ability of the double wall drops off because light has to travel through the supporting bars in the panels. The single wall is more resistant to aging but it does not have as much insulating capacity. Many commercial people around here building permanent greenhouses use large span tempered glass. I would recommend speaking with other commercial and collection people in your area to see what works best under your conditions. During the summer we whitewash the glass or have automatic shade curtains to reduce and diffuse the light. The polycarbonate houses need little or no whitewash/ shading because the light is diffused which makes the lighting omnidirectional, reaching the plant from every side resulting in better more even form. Tim Tim Metcalf Plant Biology One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616-8537 (530) 752-0569 FAX 5410 http://greenhouse.ucdavis.edu ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:06:45 +0100 Subject: re:Small D. montana tomentosa flowering > hello, > recently someone asked about typical flowering size for d. montana var. > tomentosa. i have little experience with this plant but thought i'd write > since no one else did. my plant was grown from seed sown last spring, and it > is just now flowering at about 3cm. i also grow var. schwackii > (spelling.?), but it has so far refused to grow any larger than 1.4 cm. > --mike > Hi Mike, That was me, thanks for the reply. Actually I did get a response privately and I got the answers I wanted, the small size was not a problem and this species was self fertile although "hand pollination" resulted in more seed. I also have D. montana var. schwackei and have problems with this species too. Grew OK in the beginning, then stalled and produced smaller leaves (dormancy?). One is approx. the same size as yours, but the rest are smaller. In my case the problem might be because of high temperature. Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:07:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: NZ sphagnum source For anyone interested, you can find New Zealand sphagnum moss at the following web site for Cal West Tropical Supplies in Riverside, California. www.calwesttropical.com They sell only AAA quality product. I met them at the Santa Barbara Orchid Fair last year and was glad I did. I haven't been able to find it any where else. Enjoy! Phil ################### From: JWi5770869@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:22:13 EST Subject: pets eat prizes In a message dated 02/01/01 08:39:58 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > Moral of the story, if you protect your plants at all cost! Even from Pets > that you think will never be interested in them. > Yes I had exactly this problem but with a Drosophyllum, which was donated by Steve Gordon in Liverpool (Hi Steve!!!!!). My prize plant, until the moggy had finished with it. Suffice to say I now keep my plants in the greenhouses (including my only grown from seed Drosophyllum). John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: JWi5770869@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:42:44 EST Subject: polycarbonate on greenhouses In a message dated 07/01/01 09:02:05 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > So, I would be very interested to learn from experience that you may have > with poly-carbonate in greenhouses for growing CP. > > Thanks, > Thorbj\370rn > > Bagsv(1/2)rd > Denmark Thorbjrn (?) On completing my second greenhouse, I have used the double skinned polycarb on the north facing side. The reason being that its primarily a safety feature (with an active young son, it needs to be) and I couldn't afford safety glass. The main problem with the polycarb (6mm thickness) is that it flexes to much and can sometimes fly out of the frame in high winds! If I was going to construct another greenhouse I would not use this polycarb again. Hope this helps John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: "Andy Falshaw" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:53:51 +1300 Subject: sites in/near perth, cape town I'm off to a conference in Cape Town later this month (anyone else off to the international seaweed symposium?) via a day or two in Perth each way. Can anyone recommend places to see cps in/near these places? Is there anywhere to see byblis near perth? After the conference I'm off on a tour through "the Langeberg mountains, Garden Route ... Knysna lagoon... Nature's Valley .... Tsitsikamma Coastal National Park, Addo Elephant National Park, Oudtshoorn, Cango Caves little karoo" If anyone has any suggestions what to look out for (cps, birds, bugs, anything) in any of these places I'd be grateful. thanks Andy wellington, nz ################### From: psher001@odu.edu Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:58:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Cephalotus and C. Brewer Hi Folks: Looking for Charlie Brewer. Charlie, my friend Ed Munn is interested in some Cephalotus from you. Can you please call him (collect if needed) at (703) 465-8589. Please let him know availability and price. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Meadowview ################### From: "Terry Beale" Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:38:21 -0500 Subject: Can you help me? Hi my name is Holly Beale. I am 8 years old. I am doing a project for my school's social science fair, called Carnivorous Plants: Man's Friend or Enemy? I have written a lot of the report and now I need to do the backdrop which will have pictures and maybe I can have some sort of model or something fun for people to look at. I found a great website and the man said that sometimes he had extra plants to give away but when I wrote to him he said that he had just given away his extra ones but he thought that maybe somebody at this email list might be able to help me if they have a plant they don't need anymore that they could send me for my project. My mom can pay you back for the postage cost. The only thing is that the social science fair is the week after next so I would have to get it quick. If you can send it to me, my address is: 2970 Marlin Circle, Atlanta, GA 30341. You can write me back at my mom's email address which is terrybeale@mindspring.com. Thank you! Holly [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Stig Henning Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:21:05 +0100 Subject: Unsubscribe...me. (I can to it automaticly) Hi, I have been logged on with 2 email adresses. Please remove "sthune@c2i.net" from your reciever list. Thanx, btw; There is a contest going on in Norway, in which the winner will be able to give out a CD. Please visit: http://urort.nrk.no/cgi-bin/urort/band.cgi?2114 Click "lytt" (to listen to the music), then click "stem" Thanx, Regards, Stig Henning ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:03:48 -0500 Subject: U. pusilla? Dear List, I hope someone can help... When I was in California for the CP con, I received a bit of Utricularia. I unfortunately I don't recall who I received this from, but they said it was a flowering form of _U. subulata_. Well, I have U. subulata from many growers, thought I never really wanted it, since all it ever seems to do is produce cleistogamous flowers (which I find quite lame). Even the leaves are unappealing to me. I basically try to avoid spreading this weed into other pots, I hope it's now isolated outside in my bogs where it grows in the peatmoss and Sphagnum. I don't have any inside. Well, the idea of seeing U. subulata with real flowers was appealing. However, once I took a closer look, I wasn't so sure it was U. subulata, it just looked a bit more attractive, though nothing I could point out at the time. When I mentioned my doubt, the grower was adamant it was U. subulata. Not knowing much about Utricularia I didn't give it anymore thought. I just thought, "Hey, if it can actually flower, maybe the whole plant will look a bit different, being of another strain." Now, that the plant has grown and flowered I am even less sure. I recently purchased Peter Taylor's _Utricularia_, he mentions that U. subulata has subacute end to the leaves, this plant has rounded ends. Also, traps on subulata are numerous and can appear on the bottoms of the leaves, not so on this plant. The traps are sparsely found on the stems, I didn't see any on any leaves. Also, the leaves are not linear, but they widen a bit near the end. The flower does not match either of the figures for U. subulata or _U. pusilla_ in Taylor's monograph. It is close to both, but closer to the figure for U. pusilla. The spur is about twice as long as the bottom lip. In the figure for U. subulata, we are shown a side view of the flower, but not so for U. pusilla. The spur on my plant comes down and then juts forward, totally unlike what is shown in the figure for U. subulata. I almost certain it's not U. subulata now, but could it still be something other than U. pusilla? What can I look for to use for ID that doesn't involve using a microscope? Or must I locate a microscope to look for lots of hairs on the "oral appendages"? I didn't understand the part about sterile bracts... What is a bract and the 'raceme axis'? Thank-you, Dave Evans [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Brewer Charles E PHDN Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:21:18 -0500 Subject: RE: Cephalotus and C. Brewer This is for Phil Sheridan, Got your message. My email address is as follows: brewerce@nswcphdn.navy.mil I will call Ed tonight Cheers Charles > Hi Folks: > Looking for Charlie Brewer. Charlie, my friend Ed Munn is interested in > some Cephalotus from you. Can you please call him (collect if needed) at > (703) 465-8589. Please let him know availability and price. > > Sincerely, > > Phil Sheridan > Meadowview ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:32:57 -0500 Subject: RE: Can you help me? Hi Holly, You and your parents can visit me and I'll set you up with a variety of carnvirous plants at no charge. You can keep them afterwards or return them. I'm available this Saturday afternoon if you would like to come by. I live in Doraville near the intersection of 85 and 285. Here's my phone number: 770-270-5758. David ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:48:39 +0000 Subject: Re: U. pusilla? Dave, ..snip > it still be something other than U. pusilla? What can I look > for to use for ID that doesn't involve using a microscope? Or > must I locate a microscope to look for lots of hairs on the > "oral appendages"? I didn't understand the part about sterile > bracts... What is a bract and the 'raceme axis'? > I don't have my copy of Taylor to hand but one of the most useful means of identifying Utricularia species is from their seeds. If your plant is setting seed I suggest you try this. Of course if it appears to be self sterile this would be evidence enough that you don't have U. subulata! You don't need a microscope to see the detail on the seeds. Get a powerful hand lens or even better a jeweller's loupe. These are usually 10x or more and are excellent for viewing tiny detail as you have both hands free while using it. Here in the UK, you can get jeweller's loupes quite cheaply from good photographic stores - they are used to view slides and negatives. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:27:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taylor terminology Hey Dave, >for to use for ID that doesn't involve using a microscope? Or >must I locate a microscope to look for lots of hairs on the >"oral appendages"? I didn't understand the part about sterile >bracts... What is a bract and the 'raceme axis'? I wrote an article for CPN some time ago (1974) in which I discuss the details of scales, bracts, bracteoles, etc. This article is on the web at: http://www.sarracenia.com/pubs/focus4.html Basically, the main flowering stalk of a Utricularia plant is the raceme axis. Pedicels are the little stems that branch off the raceme axis and hold each flower. Bracts are the little tiny nibs at the base of the pedicel, where it joins with the raceme axis. Now, some bracts on the raceme axis are not at the base of a pedicel. It just looks like a little nib on the axis. This kind of bract, with no flower, is considered "sterile" (i.e. it is not associated with a flower). The difference between scales and bracts is subtle. Every bract above the bottom flower on the raceme axis is a bract, sterile or fertile. Every bract-like structure BELOW the lowermost flower is considered a scale. Barry ################### From: Phungi23@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:17:34 EST Subject: Leon's got yet another email adress! Hello everybody, throw out yer old email adress for me! I've moved my account again! Ya know, I'm going to toss out the Yahoo address as well, I never seem to remember the check it more than, well, never! Hope all is well, Ciao! Leon Phaby. Phungi23@aol.com ################### From: "Doug Barrett and Laura Ratti" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:58:42 -0800 Subject: pest problems I have a few minor pest problems on my CP's that I need some help solving. I have scale on a few of my Heliamphora. I also have some sap drops on some of my nepenthes. I don't know what is causing this but assume it is an insect. I also noticed some "pimples" on the leaves if my N. veitchii. There appears to be an egg on the underside of the leaf. I don't know if this is related to the leaking sap problem. I would prefer less toxic solutions but at the same time want to eliminate these unwanted critters. Thanks for the help. Doug Barrett dougnlaura@earthlink.net ################### From: john green Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:19:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Drooling Sarracenia The other day I was looking at my S. leuco 'Tarnok' and noticed an unusually large amount of sticky secretions, both at the top opening and around the lower 2 or 3 inches of the pitchers. I've seen this before with my other Sarrs, but usually it's most heavy around the opening with little on the rest of the pitcher (with the possible exception of the edge of the ala or wing). I looked all over the plant and could see no signs of scale or any other insect pests. There are a few other Sarrs nearby (different species) but none of them are exhibiting this excess. The stuff is practically running in drops down the pitchers! Is this normal for this species or do I just need to look a lot closer for pests? I've never had much of a problem with pests. I only aquired this plant a few months ago from ABG, but I'd think they could be trusted to be "clean." Could it be possible that the conditions I have it in are causing this? It is dormant in a cool spot, growing under lights with about a 10 hour photoperiod, and probably low humidity due to forced air heating inside the house. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah john.green@ascensus.com http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:34:20 -0200 Subject: RE: collection numbers To all, Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't bother looking it up. Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here and there or appear completely siteless after a while. Furthermore (and I've seen this happen several times), what germinates is sometimes not what was supposed to have germinated (some contaminant seed from a nearby pot or mixed with the original seeds) but is assumed by the less experient grower to be that species and is soon being traded around by the wrong name. Remember D.montana? I'm sure there are lots of people still growing spatulata thinking it's montana. Not to mention all those rosetted African species, most of which always turn out to be aliciae after a few months. I'm sure we can all think of such examples for Drosera, Neps, Pings or Utrics. So on the one hand I think that collection numbers would be quickly forgotten or mixed up. But then again, numbers are easier to remember than Grao Mogol, Kununurra, or Baine's Kloof (just to give 3 examples)... Best Wishes to all, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Wubs" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:06:50 -0500 Subject: Drosera filiformis I'm hoping that David Evans is reading this! David, could you please reply to me via email so that I can: a) Add you back into my data base which was accidentally erased! b) Thank you for the seed. c) Ask you something that may or may not be relevant to do so here. -jk [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:58:26 EST Subject: Pumice Hi All, Does anyone know a good source for horticultural pumice in the Midwest? I can't find it anywhere in town. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:17:46 +0000 Subject: Re: collection numbers Fernando et al... > Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection >numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. >How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the >label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of >taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't >bother looking it up. Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, >I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here and there or How true is this!! I guess us poor English speakers have a certain excuse because we aren't used to all those accented characters that appear in the Latin name places but I have even seen my Sarracenia location misspelled... When the error is pointed out I get treated as some sort of eccentric. :-) >appear completely siteless after a while. Furthermore (and I've seen this >happen several times), what germinates is sometimes not what was supposed to >have germinated (some contaminant seed from a nearby pot or mixed with the >original seeds) but is assumed by the less experient grower to be that >species and is soon being traded around by the wrong name. Remember >D.montana? I'm sure there are lots of people still growing spatulata >thinking it's montana. Not to mention all those rosetted African species, Growing it and selling or trading it! It actually amazes me that growers seem so naive in this respect. They always assume that whatever it says on the label or seed packet is correct. Personally I tend to assume the opposite these days. Until I can positively ID the plant it has a question mark by it and will not be traded. This applies to both Utricularia and Drosera. >most of which always turn out to be aliciae after a few months. I'm sure we >can all think of such examples for Drosera, Neps, Pings or Utrics. So on the >one hand I think that collection numbers would be quickly forgotten or mixed >up. But then again, numbers are easier to remember than Grao Mogol, >Kununurra, or Baine's Kloof (just to give 3 examples)... > Oh yes.... The one that immediately springs to mind is the P. ehlersae that was propagated in huge quantities and sold by several commercial nurseries as P. cyclosecta for years. It took ages to get everyone to recognise the real plant and even longer to get certain CP nurseries to change their catalogue ..... Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:34:50 -0500 Subject: Nepenthes Pests Hello Doug and all, I have noticed several species of Nepenthes tend to be prone to attack by Thrips. If the underside of the leaves have brown areas, and the sap is red or dark in color, look with a hand lens or magnifying glass for very small "," size insects. Very few of these insects, over time, can do quite a lot of damage, and are hard to see, their damage sometimes being mistaken for fungus problems. Their life-cycle takes them underground, so a systemic insecticide, like "Orthene" should be used, following the labels instructions for Thrips. As for Heliamphora, Scale insects can do a lot of harm, even in very low numbers. I have never applied insecticide to mine, but hand removal of visible individuals ASAP is recomended. I'm sure others have had experience with spraying this genera more than I have. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, Fl. USA I have a few minor pest problems on my CP's that I need some help solving. > I have scale on a few of my Heliamphora. I also have some sap drops on some > of my nepenthes. I don't know what is causing this but assume it is an > insect. I also noticed some "pimples" on the leaves if my N. veitchii. > There appears to be an egg on the underside of the leaf. I don't know if > this is related to the leaking sap problem. I would prefer less toxic > solutions but at the same time want to eliminate these unwanted critters. > Thanks for the help. > Doug Barrett ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:10:29 -0500 Subject: Collection numbers Hello, Steven Stewart again. I agree with Fernando, (not that I'm an authority, or it matters), but I also wonder if giving the botanist credit after a species name might help insure correct identification of material. This information seems pointless to many, but I have put out a great deal of money in the distant past, for misidentified plant species. If an individual has looked up a plant name in a reputable source, (such as the great work done in the ICPS database) this information should be easy to add, and would help end much confusion over which plant is which. I would think this information would be more easy to add than collection numbers, since in the hobby, as well as the science, it could be consistently applied. Then, if an individual is looking for a specific collection type, this information could be added. As Fernando has pointed out most CPer's don't care, until money has been spent for something other than was intended. IMHO Take care, Steven Stewart To all, > > > Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection > numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. > How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the > label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of > taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't > bother looking it up. Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, > I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here and there or > appear completely siteless after a while. Furthermore (and I've seen this > happen several times), what germinates is sometimes not what was supposed to > have germinated (some contaminant seed from a nearby pot or mixed with the > original seeds) but is assumed by the less experient grower to be that > species and is soon being traded around by the wrong name. Remember > D.montana? I'm sure there are lots of people still growing spatulata > thinking it's montana. Not to mention all those rosetted African species, > most of which always turn out to be aliciae after a few months. I'm sure we > can all think of such examples for Drosera, Neps, Pings or Utrics. So on the > one hand I think that collection numbers would be quickly forgotten or mixed > up. But then again, numbers are easier to remember than Grao Mogol, > Kununurra, or Baine's Kloof (just to give 3 examples)... > > > Best Wishes to all, > > Fernando Rivadavia > Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:36:26 -0500 Subject: RE: Collection numbers Maybe the ICPS journal could help us out by writing periodic articles about id'ing species correctly. Since it takes a taxonomist to understand a taxonomist it would be helpful if the articles were written for a lay understanding with lots of drawings and pictures. David Atlanta ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:08:14 -0500 Subject: Re: collection numbers > Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection > numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. Dear Fernando and List, I don't think it's that they don't care, per se, but rather it's arrogance. You cannot tell anyone anything without out them getting upset! I deal with people like this day in, day out. I don't know if it's just New Jersey, or the whole country (USA), but people are really stuck on themselves anymore. CP'ers tend to be the best people (as a group) that I know, and most are indeed interested in details. It's just that our culture does not seem to value knowledge like it did in the past. Acting like you know is more important than knowing... Everything is cut and paste, what's is built from scratch anymore? God forbid if you tell someone you don't know something though, it's like you're supposed to be arrogant and if you are not some will feel you're weak. God forbid if you actually had to take the time to open up a book and read it for knowledge instead of for titillation. I do as some other's on the list. If I don't know what a plant is, I don't trade or sell it. Of course, in the begining I didn't realize how much there was to learn! I made some mistakes and traded mislabled plants. Hopefully, I have gotten most everything straightened out by now ;) I do have a plant that is either _D. burmannii_ or _D. sessilifolia_, but I don't know how to tell them apart. Jan mentions that the location data is important. Well, this plant came up in a pot of Sarracenia and I have not grown either species for a couple years. Yet, it just popped up in this pot which was not even close to where I had been growing either species. I don't know how it got there, but now what do I call it if someone wants some seed: D. burmannii/sessilifolia? Dave Evans ################### From: john green Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:27:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers I had intended to cut and paste from an e-mail but accidentally deleted it, so here goes: Fernando said that most CPers are lazy and don't care about keeping collection numbers. Dave Evans responded that he felt it was arrogance, that people in general feel learning is beneath them. Actually, I'd like to propose that it is ignorance. This is the first time I've ever heard of a numbering system for plants. I don't grow orchids and I don't grow cacti, or anything else for that matter except garden plants. And my CPs. I thought you just tried to keep accurate location information and that was the best way to identify specific plants, and I only learned that by ordering seeds from Carl Mazur and Phil Wilson. Heck, that seems a lot easier and more descriptive than some impersonal numbering system. Honestly, this whole discussion sounds like a bunch of botanists and biologists whining about amateurs ruining the hobby. Well, for most of us that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other words - I do it for FUN. Yes, I try to keep location information on my plants (see my website), and I used to try to keep track of who I got a plant from until my collection got a bit large (I can still probably tell you who most of them came from, though). But I think a numbering system would be intimidating to those who are just getting into the hobby (how many kids do you know out there buying orchids and cacti?). It would also make it harder to acquire new plants by trading, because some people won't trade with you if your plant isn't numbered and registered with the appropriate authorities. If you want a numbering system, you people who understand those things have to initiate it, but I think it will de-personalize the hobby. Personally, I find names like 'Tarnok' and 'Lochness' or "Liberty Co., Florida" much more appealing than a number (as if I needed one more number to keep track of!). If I've offended anyone I apologize, and if you feel the need to blast me for it, please send replies to my work address where I'll actually look at them (john.green@ascensus.com) - maybe. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:32:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collection numbers Cool discussion! > on the label or seed packet is correct. Personally I tend to assume the > opposite these days. Until I can positively ID the plant it has a > question mark by it and will not be traded. This applies to both > Utricularia and Drosera. I tend to agree with Phil on this. Anything that comes into my collection gets a "supposedly" stuck in on the label until I can ID it. I don't trade Utricularia or Genlisea to other people until it flowers and I have a chance to ID it. ID'ing rosetted sundews in cultivation, now that is a subject to drive anyone batty. > Maybe the ICPS journal could help us out by writing periodic articles about > id'ing species correctly. Since it takes a taxonomist to understand a > taxonomist it would be helpful if the articles were written for a lay > understanding with lots of drawings and pictures. Indeed. But since it seems that the editors of CPN are a little busy at the moment, perhaps some one else is willing to volunteer for this position? Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "Steve Klitzing" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:56:57 -0800 Subject: Neem Oil on Nepenthes, and skyrocketing utility prices in CA Hi: I had a problem with scale and mealybugs attacking my Nepenthes and orchids. So, I put together a mild dose of Neem Oil, mixed with a little dishwashing soap, and a lot of water, and sprayed it on the Nepenthes and orchids. Two weeks later, the Nepenthes are doing just fine. They did not die. They did not even show any signs of problems. Whatever Neem oil is, it either killed or drove away all the pests. And, my staghorn ferns and orchids survived the application, too. The only drawback is that Neem oil is rather pungent, and the smell can last a few days, but it does go away. As for the skyrocketing utility prices here in California, heating my greenhouse is making things expensive, particularly where I live, which has an average of 33-35 degrees F. at night during the winter months. So, I'm buying a 250-foot roll of bubble wrap, cost $80, to line the inside of my glass greenhouse. I expect this will drastically reduce heating costs. And, when the weather warms up in April, I can store the bubble wrap for next year. Perhaps I should have bought twin-wall polycarbonate instead of glass, however, all plastics wear out in a few short years due to UV, and I would have to fork out another $3000 to replace it. At this point, twin wall makes no sense. There was a rose grower interviewed on TV who operates north of the S.F. Bay Area. Last year his December heating bill was $29,000 for all his greenhouses. This year it's $300,000. The commercial growers would be smart to relocate their operations near geo-thermal areas, because heating would then be free. I was in Rotorua, New Zealand, in late 1999, and discovered that the whole city has free heat. Residents drill a hole 80 feet down and put in a heat exchanger. Nobody freezes in the winter, and nobody pays for heat. Of course, living on a dormant volcanic caldera can have its hazards. The Icelanders do the same thing and they actually grow their own bananas in greenhouses heated by geothermal. So, if you can locate to an area near, or containing, warm or hot springs, you can do this as well. Greenhouse fans generally don't use a lot of power, and mine pulls about .26 amps, which is fine even on a hot day. PG&E has been scaring the public lately, talking about blackouts and the like, claiming that there is not enough power to go around. This sounds suspiciously like the gas crisis of 1973, when the oil companies claimed they had no oil. When the price of oil skyrocketed, magically, there was plenty of gasoline. So, right now, the partners in this theatre act appear to be holding up a boogey-man doll and shaking it in front of Californians. And, it's too bad, because if they are allowed to frighten us into submission, there are a lot of lower income Californians who cannot afford the rate increases. And what will they do? As for our government, well, like government anywhere, we have career politicians who only do what's necessary to appease their constituency, and then return to business as usual. Sometimes, I just get tired of hearing the latest big lie. If you don't hear from me soon, it's because California has been cast into eternal darkness - oh no! What will we do without the ability to watch Temptation Island and Survivor? ---Steve Klitzing _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:06:30 -0500 Subject: RE: Collection numbers >Indeed. But since it seems that the editors of CPN are a little busy at >the moment, perhaps some one else is willing to volunteer for this >position? Fernando, I think I read your name above . The challenge will be to write at my educational level David ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:38:20 -0800 Subject: Emergency: Petiolaris Sean Attention Listees, Petiolaris Sean, asked me to inform you all that he is experiancing computer problems and is unable to reply to his many many e-mail messages. Please be patient and he will get back to you. Apparently while attempting to improve the efficiency of his computer he accidentally deleted vital program files. This concludes our test of the emergency broadcast system. If this had been an actual emergency, you would be in big trouble right now:-) Crazy Ivan ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:40:53 EST Subject: Re: Emergency: Petiolaris Sean Crazy Ivan, Thanks for clearing the air on Petiolaris Sean's woes. The Nebraska carnivorous plant contingent(maybe three of us) was starting to get offended and we were thinking about declaring war on the Californians, but that would not be a fair war, seeing how the odds would be a hundred to one, or so. You don't have enough Californians...:) Hope everyone is enjoying the year 2001, so far. "Orible Joe" Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: John Phillips Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:47:47 -0800 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers I agree that keeping accurate records of one's plants is important, but I believe it is best to ENCOURAGE newbies and not-so-newbies to keep accurate records of their plants origins, etc. Insulting people will not be taken well. Remember, there are CP'ers lurking on this list who will take the strong language of more "experienced" CP'ers the wrong way, and they will be discouraged from participating in the CP community. Sometimes I get private e-mail from these list lurkers who have a question, but were to afraid to ask the list for fear of being called arrogant, ignorant and otherwise "flamed". Like honey vs. vinegar, mentoring will improve our community more than...well you know... I hope I have not insulted anyone. ################### From: "Adao Pereira" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:51:53 -0000 Subject: Looking for specific CPN article and others Hello again! Yet doing my work about Byblis, I came across some references of articles which would be very helpful. So please if anyone has one of the following articles, email me, I would be very grateful: - De Buhr (??), L.E., (1975), Observations on Byblis gigantea in Western Australia. CPN 4:60-61 - Bruce A.N. (1905), On the glands of Byblis gigantea Lindl. Notes from the Loyd Botanical Society; Edinbourgh, 16:9-14 The following articles about Genlisea would be helpful too: - Majnussen (??) B.C. (1982), An Introduction to Genlisea, CPN 11:13-15 - Fromm-Trista (??) (1989), Genliseas Americanas. Sellowia 36:55-62 I would thank very much anyone who could arrange me copies of these articles. Thanks for your attention! Miguel ################### From: JWi5770869@cos.agilent.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:14:50 EST Subject: Drooling Sarrs In a message dated 11/01/01 09:12:58 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > The other day I was looking at my S. leuco 'Tarnok' and noticed an unusually > large amount of sticky secretions, both at the top opening and around the > lower 2 or 3 inches of the pitchers. I've seen this before with my other > Sarrs, but usually it's most heavy around the opening with little on the > rest of the pitcher (with the possible exception of the edge of the ala or > wing). I looked all over the plant and could see no signs of scale or any > other insect pests. There are a few other Sarrs nearby (different species) > but none of them are exhibiting this excess. The stuff is practically > running in drops down the pitchers! Is this normal for this species or do I John, I have a Sarr x rehderi (spelling?) that exibits the same behaviour. The only trouble I've found with Sarrs that do this is you can end up with sooty mould growing on the nectar, which looks awful. If its bothering you, wipe its mouth as you would a drooling child All the best John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:24:20 EST Subject: D. capensis "alba" Hi All, Here is a relatively mundane question about something I am a little fuzzy on: Is D. capensis"alba" referring to a white- flowered form(seems like it should) or is it referring to a all green plant? I have heard both used as descriptions. What I supposedly have is all-green and I have never had it flower. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "R B" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:07:24 -0800 Subject: Reminder: Los Angeles CPS meeting is tomorrow! >From Ivan Snyder: The next meeting of the Los Angeles Carnivorous Plant Society will be Saturday, January 13 at the Alhambra Chamber of Commerce, 104 S. First Street. Doors open at 12, meeting starts at 1:00 pm. Admission: $2.00 DIRECTIONS Driving east on the 10 freeway exit Garfield and go north about one mile.Turn left on Main, one block to First Street, then left again another block. Free parking. PROGRAM Display and sales table. Bring in your own plants for show, sale or trade, and meet other local growers to learn growing techniques. All genera represented (hopefully). Free refreshments available. PRESENTATION Ed Read will give a slide show from his visit to Mexico and tell about Mexican Pinquicula. Dick Trans will demonstrate his capillary mat system for growing Cephalotus. See you there. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Andrew Broome Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:13:01 +1300 Subject: RE: collection numbers Fernando said... > I think collection numbers is a great idea... I came to the CP hobby via the killifish hobby (in which I'm still active) and still can't get over the difference in approach that people from the two groups have. With the serious killifish keeper, location names and collection data are generally considered to be very important and with major efforts being taken to keep even different collections of the same species apart from each other. The whole concept of hybrids is abhorrent to most, and fish without collection data are all considered 'Aquarium Strains'. Generally the point is to keep the fish as close as possible as to what they were like when first collected. > Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, > I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here Of course, this happens with killies as well and while it's a shame I still feel it's important to do your best to keep track of information about a species and to try and verify it when possible. Luckily with killies there are several very keen people who have been assigning collection codes since the '80s and this has become more common during the '90s as a more scientific approach to collecting and the information that can be gained from it has been adopted. There is even a book that lists all the known collections and who made them and exactly where etc. With certain groups there are also keen individuals who will jump up and correct people who (accidentily or otherwise) try and distribute fish with incorrect labels. Brian Watters and the Nothobranchius genus springs to mind. This does ruffle a few feathers from time to time with people who don't like to be corrected but that's a small price to pay, IMHO. Anyay, as I said, it's just interesting (to me) to note the differences in approach. Certainly with my CPs I record any location information I get and it's passed on with the plant if I propagate it. Just my thoughts... Andrew@home. *NZKA 137, NAKA 5, AKA 07212, PNAS, NZCPS ... * Degeneracy can be fun, but it's hard to keep up * as a serious lifetime occupation. * Robert M. Pirsig (ZatAoMM) *Killies: Ducatis: Reptiles & Amphibians: Carnivorous Plants: ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:34:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers Exactly John, ..... and how accurate is the information. For instance I can easily go to Lowrie's seed list and find location mistakes for cp from the SE USA. I'm not just talking about miss-spelling's either. But not to insult or flame, Mr. Lowrie must go on information sent him. I bring his name up as he is well respected within the cp community. Just as I may label the incorrect origin of a Nepenethes that comes in miss-identified. I really am not that knowledgeable about geographic locations on Borneo, or for that matter most places, some I have been too. :-) As for cactus..... wow what a mess. Very close to total confusion with numbering. The nomenclature with succulents provides long term job stability for Botanist. Take the Genus Notocactus, now includes Parodia next year maybe not. Some collections use one, either, or both names. Warming up finally, ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida USA ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:50 PM > > I agree that keeping accurate records of one's plants is important, > but I believe it is best to ENCOURAGE newbies and not-so-newbies to keep > accurate records of their plants origins, etc. Insulting people will not > be taken well. Remember, there are CP'ers lurking on this list who will > take the strong language of more "experienced" CP'ers the wrong way, and > they will be discouraged from participating in the CP community. Sometimes > I get private e-mail from these list lurkers who have a question, but were > to afraid to ask the list for fear of being called arrogant, ignorant and > otherwise "flamed". > Like honey vs. vinegar, mentoring will improve our community more > than...well you know... > I hope I have not insulted anyone. > > ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:23:19 -0600 Subject: Re: collection numbers Andrew, I saw your reference to killifish on the CP list. I've kept tropicals and have goldfish in pools. Tell me about killies. How can I get some that are native to zone 7 (Arkansas). Thanks, Wayne Morrow ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 07:35:21 +1100 Subject: Re: D. capensis "alba" Joe, and others, My D. capensis 'alba' is both all-green and white flowered. Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 ph: (03) 62262624 ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:32:18 +1100 Subject: Borneo Hi all As some of you know, I'm travelling to Borneo in June for several weeks. I have accumulated a fair amount of info on the place but.... If anyone out there has been or has any interesting info on where to go or what to see, could they please point me in the right direction. I am going to Kuching, Bako N.P.,Gunung Mulu N.P., Niah N.P., M.T Kinabalu (naturally), and Sandakan. I'm after specific information eg. 20 paces north, 50 paces east N. northiana!! Thanks Greg ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:33:14 -0500 Subject: Re: D. capensis "alba" Dear Joe, > Here is a relatively mundane question about something I am a little fuzzy on: Is D. capensis"alba" referring to a white- flowered form(seems like it should) or is it referring to a all green plant? I have heard both used as descriptions. What I supposedly have is all-green and I have never had it flower. Umm, so far all the "alba" plants I have seen are really all-green. I think "alba" is either a misused latin term or someone though that all-green plants are albinos and used "alba" to indicate so. Well, they are diffenitely not albinos as if they were they would not have any green and in turn die. Some place more importantance on color and feel that alba should be part of the official name, I guess it's sort of a political statement in this case. Yes, an "all-green" plant will have white flowers, since they can't make other pigments, unless the flowers happen to be green also. I don't know of any CP's with green flowers though. If the flowers are some color other than normal, or there is no normal color (like D. cistiflora), but the plant itself has normal color just note, "red flower", "white flower", "cream fl." or ect. Dave Evans ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 05:13:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers Dear John and List, > Fernando said that most CP'ers are lazy and don't care about keeping > collection numbers. Dave Evans responded that he felt it was arrogance, > that people in general feel learning is beneath them. Actually, I'd like to > propose that it is ignorance. Well, I would like to clarify: I don't think CP'ers tend to be lazy and arrogant, as the subject line might indicate. I think people in general have become so, rather like it's popular attitude to have. I feel this is starting hamper society, but enough of that (I am just glad I don't have to interveiw people for positions). Truly as you mention, laziness and arrogance are not going to stop CP'ers from using a numbering system anyway (sorry I got side tracked from the numbering system last time), rather not knowing how to use one would! I have not used a number system and don't know the best way to go about building one either. I would say, though, that many types of CP's don't really need to be numbered for ease of tracking, unless you want to do a study of distribution patterns of captive plants! (which would be a massive undertaking, and I doubt you'd be able to do a decent census anyway) For example: _Cephalotus follicularis_ is just that, you're not gonna mistake it for another species. Even the various "giant" clones don't seem much of any different. Just better cultivated and allowed to grow to their potential. Would a numbering system that includes location data make it easier to produce seed? For this species, hardly anyone bothers with producing seed when the cuttings work so much faster... So I don't think there is much practical use in that case, but on the other hand we have tuberous Drosera that need to be of separate stock in order to produce seed (what exceptions are there besides for _D. auriculata_ and _D. peltata_?). If we want to be able to produce seed of most of these species, we would need a system that keeps track of clones and successive generations to keep from inbreeding. Is a location numbering system worth using for the species that are not self-fertile? After all, one generation in and you will not have plants from those locations anymore... Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette thingies (Drosera) that no one seems to be able to keep track of, a numbering system would be very beneficial just for keeping track of the species. This system would be linear, with the numbers corresponding the location. Since all of these are self-pollinating, or at least self-fertile, the same number can follow down the generations from parent to the seed. It's sound like the easiest (laziest? Devil's advocate here) way to go for these. Also, I doubt this system would be the slightest bit intimidating to beginners. Rather the opposite. It would help them to feel more connected and capable. After all, how else would we deal with this hypothetical: _D. montana tomentosa_ was collected at site AX, however, the seed that was collected included another very similar but different plant. The person who collected the seed didn't even realize there was another species present since the lighting was poor as night was coming on. Seed is distributed and some people are growing what they think is D. montana tomentosa and it looks pretty close anyway, but it's really not. The seed gets spread under the wrong name, some people catch it, many don't and there's no way to ever hope of straightening it out. Had there been a resource (a web page, of course) for such a numbering system/location data database and the original collector had registered and distributed the seed under the name "D. montana tomentosa XYZ", anyone interested could follow this trail. Once the more experienced growers realize that D. montana tomentosa XYZ is really two plants and what the other species is and how they differ, the data base could be undated with this info. Anyone, even the lay-growers, that are interested in accuracy would be able to follow this lead. Since it cuts out much guess work and points them right to the proper diagnosis, I think it would help move them toward an appreciation of the finer points of CP taxonomy. How would new locations be added, and would they need to be verified in some way? Dave Evans ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:18:25 +1100 Subject: Collection Data and Borneo A very emotional subject for all! I'd like to add my thoughts without upsetting anyone. I have roughly 200 different species and hybrid CPs. From what I can gather,of these 200, 100 should have a ? next to them and by rights I should destroy any seed or spare plants as I am unable to gather enough information to properly identify them. I'm an Electrican, just a humble tradesman with a passion for C.P.s. I have purchased seed and plants from most well known growers and societies. I keep as much information as I receive with those purchases and like to think that I can trust these people to have sold me the "right thing". I do not sell anything that I am not confident is the right thing but as I said without the right information, I must believe what I've bought is right. An example: Every D. coccicaulis I have seen in Australia looks the same but I was recently told by an educated man (Hi Robert) that it appears that these are all in fact D. venusta or at least that's what they call them in the U.S.A. I've sold hundreds of these things! Sorry! At least if collections were numbered and the numbers weren't lost as plants were distributed, we would be able to re-name plants as the information became available and eventually weed out those that were not correctly labeled. If nothing else, a numbering system would prop up the C.P. market,and send those who have to have it all (like me) broke buying them. I hope some of that made sence to those who chose to read it. Thanks Greg While I'm here, I forgot to ask with yesturday's Borneo question that I was interested in seeing Drosera and Utrics when I get there. ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:31:22 -0000 Subject: Numbering of plants. Time to rejoin the discussion I started. It's always hard to see things revive after Christmas but it seems this topic did it! I'm surprised by good volume of positive response so far. First, I have to say John Phillips made a good point. It can be easy to offend people by calling them names. On this occassion it was me. But I did it to stimulate a discussion - which seems to have worked. No-one was personally attacked and those who might have responded worst have actually just participated. And I only asked a question. Still, I acknowledge John's point, politely made. Some people have started to interpret my point, and the responses to it, in way that I didn't intend. In the main, this relates to personally attaching numbers to plants in a collection, with fears, concerns arising. Before I comment, let me start by adding a few technical terms. I won't introduce many. And they are very easy to get used to and use, if anyone wants to. (The taxonomists can correct me if I describe anything wrongly, though I hope not to expand too much as this will add complexity!) There are two very important "numbers" that can and should be attached to a plant in a collection. Not everyone will want to do this, but some will especially if they understand why it's useful. The first number is called an Accession Number. It need not be a number, it can contain any characters that can be typed or written. However, it's usual to use letters, numbers and special characters such as slash and hyphen, generally all as available on a normal (QWERTY) typewriter or PC keyboard. I won't explain (now) the different ways these Accession Numbers can be constructed (historically some were very complex) but suffice to say that it shouldn't matter (and if you start now, just stick to a simple sequence. The easiest model or template for using Accession Numbers is to use the very easy and obvious sequence, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. The other "number" important to collections is a field collection number or Collector's Number. This is, as for accession numbers, another group of characters so it need not be a number literally. Again, 1,2,3,4, etc. is the easiest to use. There is a third, less common, "number" which is one assigned to each different field trip. Often this is just absorbed into the Collector's Number but it can be a separate value (so if starting numbering now, you can ignore Field Trip numbers altogether, though advanced users may want to use them). So, now I've attached names to the "numbers", when are they used? Let's start with the one that is theoretically used first. This is the "Collector's Number". People who actually go out looking for plants in the wild are those who should (or could) use these. If a person on a field trip finds a plant, it is normal and good scientific practice to attach a unique "Collector's Number" to each specimen found. The collection number is unique to the person using it as that person has no way of knowing what collection numbers are being used by anyone else in the world. It is possible that the collector's number is assigned to a plant on behalf of the collector but by someone else. However, it's done when or soon after (hopefully) the plant is collected from the wild and theoretically before the specimen is positively identified. Accesion Numbers are assigned by anyone (and ideally everyone) who has a collection of plants. Clearly, if you grow 2 cacti and a poinsietta (only at Christmas), you won't use Accessions Numbers. But if you want to collect lots of plants and f you hope to know or label (correctly) what they are, then Accession Numbers are a good idea. Assigning them couldn't be simpler. Simply choose a plant in your collection and give it your choice of an "Axccession Number". "1" is a very good choice but you could be more exotic and mix letters, numbers, dates, etc. But why add complications, just start with "1". Then choose another plant, it makes no difference which, and give it a unique "Accession Number" that you haven't already used. If you started with "1", "2" would be a sensible and obvious choice. If you use exotic numbering systems, remebering what comes next may be difficult. Obviously you just keep going - 3, 4, 5, etc. OK. So I hope I've demonstrated that assigning Accession and Collector's Numbers is really trivial. Even if your field trip is into the field outside your back garden (for those living in the Florida Panhandle, Belize, Western Australia or other CP rich areas), you still attach the numbers. Field Trips do not have to be formal, planned or to anywhere in partticular. Next, why use these numbers at all? I'll start with Accession Numbers. We all know what a pain CP identification can be. Some of those red rosetty things (er, Drosera), are damned similar! And it would be stupid to think that all CP'ers will spend hours identifying each plant in their collection - most will use the name the plant arrived with and trust it is correct, even though we know that a massive number of plants are labelled incorrectly! But, let us say that we all suddenly sarted using numbers. And let me assume I give five of you the same Pinguicula (with Accession Number 1234) . Now you can assign it your own accession number (each of you will give it a different one). Now, let's assume I suddenly decide my Pinguicula is in fact wrongly named. I may not know who has the plant but I can publish my plant list. Against plant Accession Number 1234 I can give the correct name (and perhaps show that this has changed). Now anyone who has a plant that originated from me with Accession Number 1234 can rename their plant to the correct name. This is just one use. But it shows that Accession Numbers allow traceability - you can follow a plant from its current owner back to the source. A second use, which should appeal to many of us, is long term. Suppose a plant dies out in the wild. Many of us would like to think we could try to repopulate the wild. many discussions have already pointed outv that to try this, you must use as much plant material as possible to ensure genetic variety is present. But how can you be sure you are planting different plants rather than clones? The answer is by tracing a plant's origin using Accession Numbers. This happened with the "Chocolate Plant" Cosmos atrosanguineus, which did become extinct in the wild. A world-wide request was made for contact by gardeners who grew this plant. Each that responded was asked to donate material. All materiual donated was genetically tested. And each donation that was of a different genetic variety was added to the group of plants that were planted back in the wild. Over 90% of plants tested actually came from a single clone! However, if all the gardeners had used Accession Numbers, testing may have been unnecessary, saving a lot money. Collector's numbers also play a part in the smae way. The only real difference is that a Colector's Number is really a special Accession Number that identifies the wild origin of a plant. But it's critical this is assigned and recorded. First, in the previous example (Cosmos), suppose I trace two plants back to two orignal commercial nurseries. Are they different plants? I don't know. Probably, but not for sure. Maybe the nurseries both got their plants from the same collector after a field trip. Maybe one got plants from the other nursery and didn't record it. Accession Numbers are assined by each grower so it only takes one person to forget to record the accession number, r to forget to record the number assigned by the person they got their plant from, and traceability ends! But a Collector's Number is assigned to a plant specimen and should remain with it and all it's clones (or with seed and all their progeny). So even if Accession Numbers are not used, if we all recorded Collector's Numbers for every plant we had, we could trace every single plant we had back to when it was first collected from the wild. Which means that when a new plant (say P. species nova, Collector's Number 9876) is actually named, we can all update our records so that the plant is anamed correctly. Collector's Numbers are how I started this listserver topic. I would like to think that all wild collected plants could now be given collector's numbers when collected. I would like to think that those collectors would distribute their plants complete with Cllector's Numbers. And I would like to think they would ask that those they distribute plants to are asked to maintain the Collector Number so that when they too distribute the plant, it is accompanied by it's Collector's Number. Obviously this will not affect plants already in cultivation. But it will affect new plants that some of us are lucky enough to have the chance to introduce. And even though you might still wonder if you really want to be bothered, I thnk most of you will. Aftter all, when you spend your money on a plant, wouldn't you like to know it really is what the label says it is? Well Collector's Numbers areyour insurance. Of course unscrupulous people could invent bogus numbers, but it's traceable and I've never heard of it happening in the cactus or Orchid world, where numbering is common. So if a plant has an asigned Collector's Number that is published with it in a seed or plant catalogue or in a private list, you can place some trust in the name as the plant records have clearly been maintained well. This has only been a simple introduction (it's long enough already!). There is more that can be said but that would, I think, be overkill at this time. But there no reason why others can't add more in separate emails. So, how about we have a go at using Collector's Numbers and Accession Numbers? How about we ask plant nurseries (the CP specialist nurseries) to supply colletor's and accession number details with each plant we buy from them? How about asking our frinds for these numbers when we exchange plants (or even if they offer to give us plants)? We'll be doing ourselves, and each other, a favour! How about field trip description being published in CPN (and the other journals) not just with the names of plants seen, but with the Collector's Numbers of specimens taken for introduction into cultivation (so we know hat to ask for or to look for in the catalogues)? It's up to you. It's a decision each person can make for themselves. It's a little more work (not much), but it adds enormous value to a collection from scientific and conservation perspectives. And the financial value of properly recorded plants is also higher!!! It's just an idea. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:57:55 -0200 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers John and all, > Fernando said that most CPers are lazy and don't care about keeping > collection numbers. Looking back at what I wrote, I don't see the word "lazy" anywhere, so this is your interpretation here John. Read the paragraph below again please: "...the truth is that most CPers don't care. How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't bother looking it up." Basically, I'm agreeing with what you wrote: > Actually, I'd like to propose that it is ignorance. .... > Honestly, this whole discussion sounds like a bunch of botanists and > biologists whining about amateurs ruining the hobby. Well, for most of us > that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid > because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other words > - I do it for FUN. That's exactly it, many CPers couldn't give a hoot about location info because they're in it for fun. And we can't tell them they're wrong and that they should do it "our" way. Maybe that's the difference between the CP hobby and the orchid / cacti hobbies. Excuse my partiality here, but CPs are WAY more fun to cultivate than orchids, cacti, bromeliads, etc., maybe attracting the younger crowd and the more informal hobbiest type. Orchids and cacti (because they're boring compared to CPs! :):) ) seem to attract more professional/ I-want-the-most-perfect-plant types. And killifish are probably not as easy to "grow" either, attracting the same type of people. So I am not being critical towards the "plain" hobbiests when I say they don't give a damn about taxonomy. I'm just stating a fact, to which they have all the right in the world to do as they like. > But I think a numbering system would be > intimidating to those who are just getting into the hobby (how many kids do > you know out there buying orchids and cacti?). It would also make it harder > to acquire new plants by trading, because some people won't trade with you > if your plant isn't numbered and registered with the appropriate > authorities. If you want a numbering system, you people who understand > those things have to initiate it, but I think it will de-personalize the > hobby. Personally, I find names like 'Tarnok' and 'Lochness' or "Liberty > Co., Florida" much more appealing than a number (as if I needed one more > number to keep track of!). Could be true, but then again maybe the cacti, orchid, and killifish people said the same thing when it was originally proposed. On the one hand, I think it'll mostly add to the confusion, that we should stick to location names and whoever wants to can follow it. BUT... only in the past few weeks I have communicated with a few CPers on the listserv about plants that they grew from seeds possibly collected by me. In some cases it's easy to know if they were really my collections, but some not. A collection number would've cleared that up immediately. All the best, Fernando Rivadavia Sao paulo, Brazil ################### From: John Brittnacher Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:58:59 -0800 Subject: New seeds in ICPS seed bank Sean Samia donated some rare seeds to the ICPS seed bank: Byblis liniflora, Drosera ordensis, Drosera paradoxa x darbyensis, and Roridula gorgonias. Quantities are VERY limited. Sean says Drosera paradoxa x darbyensis won't germinate without GA3 treatment. Please don't ask for the seeds if you can't get any GA3. I don't have any and don't know where you can get it. The seeds are listed at http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/seeds.cgi I will not be able to process any seed bank orders until 27 January. Orders will be processed by postmark date with orders mailed before 18 January processed at random. So there is no point to express mail your order or send me e-mail about it. The only exception is for people who have credit with the seed bank for donating seeds. You may send your order via e-mail and it will be processed before mail orders. If you want special treatment next time, send me seeds the seed bank needs. For more info check out the seed bank FAQ page http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/seedFAQ.htm Remember, seed bank sales are for members only. Don't bother asking for multiple packets of any variety unless I have 40 or more packets of it, I'll either substitute something else or return your money. ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:11:48 -0600 Subject: Niagra Carnivores Has Niagra moved their web site? Does anyone have the seed codes they use? Thanks Wayne ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:34:03 -0000 Subject: More Re: Collection numbers First, let me repeat so that poor old Fernando doesn't end up ruing the day he wrote on this topic - IT WAS ME!!! I started this discussion! I asked if CPers were lazy! Blame me, not Fernando! OK. Have I made my point? Is anything unclear? Hope not! :-) Meanwhile.... > I would say, though, that many types of CP's don't really need to be >numbered for ease of tracking, unless you want to do a study of distribution >patterns of captive plants! (which would be a massive undertaking, and I >doubt you'd be able to do a decent census anyway) For example: _Cephalotus >follicularis_ is just that, you're not gonna mistake it for another species. I disagree. While there may never be more than one taxon (e.g. a single species, no wild variants as subspecies, varieties, etc.), there are separate populations witrh presumably different genetic content. We do not know if this plant may become threatened in the wild but we do need to know which plants originate from different locations to preserve the knowledge of different genetic groups. This would even be importnt to breeders hoping to generate cultivars, which often depend on introducing vigour by mixing as much genetic variance as possible from the correct choice of parent plants. >Even the various "giant" clones don't seem much of any different. Just >better cultivated and allowed to grow to their potential. Would a numbering >system that includes location data make it easier to produce seed? For this >species, hardly anyone bothers with producing seed when the cuttings work so >much faster... Which is why we have so few plants that are "different". I'm no hampion of cultivars, I colect species, but cultivar lovers would like new forms of Cephalotus, I assume. > Is a location numbering system worth using for the species that are not >self-fertile? After all, one generation in and you will not have plants >from those locations anymore... Yes. Because plants can be produced asexually and then are identical to the parents (clones thereof), so the collection data is perfectly applicable. > Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette >thingies (Drosera) ... Ah, a like minded soul :-) that no one seems to be able to keep track of, a >numbering system would be very beneficial just for keeping track of the >species. This system would be linear, with the numbers corresponding the >location. No. That would require central co-ordination. It is only necessary for a collector to maintain his or her system and for each collector to have their own system. I doubt this system would be the slightest bit >intimidating to beginners. Rather the opposite. It would help them to feel >more connected and capable. It certainly isn't difficult. If you can write a name on a label, for beginners the "number" would simply be an extension of the name, another part of the label. > After all, how else would we deal with this hypothetical: _D. montana >tomentosa_ was collected at site AX, however, the seed that was collected >included another very similar but different plant. The person who collected >the seed didn't even realize there was another species present since the >lighting was poor as night was coming on. Seed is distributed and some >people are growing what they think is D. montana tomentosa and it looks >pretty close anyway, but it's really not. The seed gets spread under the >wrong name, some people catch it, many don't and there's no way to ever hope >of straightening it out. Had there been a resource (a web page, of course) >for such a numbering system/location data database and the original >collector had registered and distributed the seed under the name "D. montana >tomentosa XYZ", anyone interested could follow this trail. There is potentially such a thing already. Jan's excellent CP database already helps track previous names of a CP. I would assume that new species identified by a collection number might appear in such a database, under their correct name, with a reference to the original and the collection number. If not, a parallel similar database is perfectly feasible. > How would new locations be added, and would they need to be verified >in some way? No need. As I said, you don't want central coordination because noone will guarantee its maintenance. As I've already said, t isn't necessary. >At least if collections were numbered and the numbers weren't lost as plants >were distributed, we would be able to re-name plants as the information >became available and eventually weed out those that were not correctly >labeled. Exactly! >If nothing else, a numbering system would prop up the C.P. market,and send >those who have to have it all (like me) broke buying them. Yes, it does help CP sales as the avid collectors who strive to have everything in their list might feel obliged to buy plants that differ by collection number. But we already do this anyway as, in many cases, the collector's number would reference what curently get listed as place names. (However, place names are not collector's numbers and can never replace them.) > Looking back at what I [Fernando] wrote, I don't see the word > "lazy" anywhere, It was me - your old, or is it now ex friend Paul :-) !!!!!!! >"...the truth is that most CPers don't care. How often do we see people >growing things which are totally not what the label says. They simply >couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of taxonomy (which some of >us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't bother looking it up." True, but people may still keep data as part of the label without caring what it means. After all, people do have plants labelled Pinguicula moranensis alba (or Alba or "Alba") but there is no such thing, it's actually just plain P. moranensis. >> Honestly, this whole discussion sounds like a bunch of botanists and >> biologists whining about amateurs ruining the hobby. Well, for most of us >> that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid >> because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other >words >> - I do it for FUN. And if fun means not recording collector's numbers or accesion numbers, don't. You will not be alone, no- one will tell you off. It's your hobby and you can run it the way that suits you. But perhaps others will record useful data if they know how and why. It will not make them "better" people, and it won't make their plants more valuable to them than yos are to you. But it will make tproperly labelled plants more valuable generally and as long as you don't care, that isn't a problem. Please - I've gone out of my way not to criticise your comment here - it's sincere - there's no criticism intended for how you wish to manage your hobby. > That's exactly it, many CPers couldn't give a hoot about location >info because they're in it for fun. And we can't tell them they're wrong and >that they should do it "our" way. Maybe that's the difference between the CP >hobby and the orchid / cacti hobbies. Excuse my partiality here, but CPs are >WAY more fun to cultivate than orchids, cacti, bromeliads, etc., maybe >attracting the younger crowd and the more informal hobbiest type. A touch prejudiced perhaps? CPs are more fun if you like CP's. If you like orchids, you probably can't even spell CD's, oops - I mean, CP's! No-one is telling hobbyists that it's wrong to not record data. But, and I feel a big argument will result from this following statement, no-one who collects a plant from the wild should do so without recording the data. Casual collecting of wild plants is a threat to wild plants. People doing it generally remove lants that are already in cultivation. People who do it to capture a new species , a new variant or for other reputable scientific reasons need the data even if they do not yet realise it. >and cacti (because they're boring compared to CPs! :):) ) seem to attract >more professional/ I-want-the-most-perfect-plant types. Clearly there's no such thing. But it tends to be the amatures that strive for the longest fullest lists. Others tend to specialise so limiting the numbers of plants appropriate to their collection. >> But I think a numbering system would be >> intimidating to those who are just getting into the hobby (how many kids >do >> you know out there buying orchids and cacti?). Yes, kids could be put off if it isn't explained. But I've many years experience of working with kids. I find that they love to be challenged and that they are put off by rules when there is no logical explanati