################### From: Dionaea@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:05:30 EST Subject: Pets and CP Looking at pot of Byblis aquatica that has been dying ever since i moved it to the Pinguicula window sill, I was all excited because I thought I saw a new Pinguicula take hold in that pot. Then I looked at some of my other pings (which for the first time in my 20 years of growing CP have not died yet and look like they were surviving the winter OK). Then to my horror, I saw the pot. It looke like some insect had been eating it. Quickly I came to the conclusion that insects don't usually scatter the leaves everywhere - it had to be something else... What caused this plant to look like something enjoyed a wonderful Pinguicula salad? Well, it turns out that my female Pacific Parrotlet decided that she had had enough of here own food and wanted to try something else! Luckily, it was not a prized plant, but an unidentified Ping that has not yet flowered for me yet. Moral of the story, if you protect your plants at all cost! Even from Pets that you think will never be interested in them. Now to the safety question: Are Pinguicula safe for Parrots to eat? No, i am not contemplating feeding her more, I just want to make sure that she won't get sick... Anyone? Hope you had a wonderful new year. ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 22:30:58 +0100 Subject: Small D. montana tomentosa flowering Hi, I have a D. montana tomentosa, Serra da Canastra that has started to send up a flower stalk. It is only about 2 cm in diameter and one of its siblings, which is a little bit larger, show no sign of flowering (yet). Do this species usually flower at this size, anyone with experience? Does it require cross-pollination to produce seed? Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: "A.J. Paton" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:03:45 -0000 Subject: Rampant sphagnum Hi list & happy new year! I am in the process of carrying out some much needed gardening in my greenhouse, to clear away all of the dead material etc. A large amount of sphagnum moss has gradually been taking over an area under a bench. Most of this has burried D. capensis & binata plants - what's that?...you think I should let it carry on growing? :-O. Anyway, as these CP's seem to grow quite fast, I was wondering how other people "managed" their sphagnum - should I be pruning the moss regularly, or should the plants come bursting through the moss again when spring arrives? Now that I have a bucket full of moss, what is the best way to store it? - would it be OK to leave it in the bucket in the greenhouse until spring, when it can be used for repotting (& my Mum's hanging baskets!)?. Cheers, A.J. ################### From: Bravoanus1@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 20:45:16 EST Subject: Re: cephalotus In a message dated 01-01-01 03:36:24 EST, you write: << Hi, if anyone has any cephalotus (not giant) for sale in the USA please email me.. thank you! :) >> I am interested in these, too...bravoanus1@aol.com ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:27:38 +0930 Subject: Tropical Drosera I'm just back from 3 weeks holiday. At the start of my holiday I went with some friends to Litchfield National Park, which is about 150km from Darwin. I'd seen drosera there a few years ago, and I was keeping a look out for them, but I didn't see any in what I thought were the obvious places. The last place we went to in the Park is a spot called the Bulli Rockholes. This is very popular with the tourists as it consists of a series of rock pools, through which there is a constant flow of water (even during the Dry Season). In the peak of the Wet Season, the water is more a torrential flood. When we got there, the first thing I noticed was that there were drosera in abundance. I know very little about drosera. These were all small rosettes (no more than 2 cm diameter) that were a dark pink-red in colour. Nearly all had flower stalks (and pink flowers). Possibly they were d. petiolaris, but I haven't seen a picture of one and only have a description from the "Savage Garden" as a guide. (If someone could point me to a website with good photos, I might be able to make a more positive identification). They were all growing very near to the water's edge on the slime that collected around other plants roots. Many appeared to be growing on the surface of the boulders and these reminded me very much of starfish clinging to marine rocks. I would very much recommend this location to any CP enthusiast visiting Darwin. It's worth visiting for the various pools, and small waterfalls - the abundance and proximity of the drosera are a definite bonus. Being a National Park, the flora is protected. I did remove a few dead flower stalks and when I got home I tapped them over a damp sand/vermiculite mixture, but I don't really know what I'm doing so if anything springs up I'll be pleasantly surprised. Cheers, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:59:59 +1100 Subject: Re: Tropical Drosera Kevin, By your description, they sound like D. burmannii... but I might be wrong. Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 ph: (03) 62262624 ################### From: Brewer Charles E PHDN Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:04:05 -0500 Subject: RE: cephalotus Howdy, I didn't have a name attached with this email, so I will address you as Howdy :), Anyway, if you are still interested in Cephs, please let me know and I will send details. Thanks, Charles Va. Beach, Va. > << Hi, if anyone has any cephalotus (not giant) for sale in the USA please > > email me.. thank you! :) > >> > I am interested in these, too...bravoanus1@aol.com ################### From: MCliff428@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:24:15 EST Subject: Pinquicula in the Wild In the past year, I have visited various bogs in the Northeast. I have seen Drosera, Sarracenia and Utricularia in abundance, but I have never seen Pinquicula. From what I understand, Butterworts don't grow in bogs, but what type of environment do they grow in? I am interested in viewing this genus in the wild, but I can never seem to find it. Does anyone know of a Pinquicula viewing spot in the Northeast? What type of environment would it grow in? What type of areas should I look for? Thanks. Michael Clifford Morristown, NJ ################### From: chamb@u.arizona.edu Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:30:17 -0700 Subject: Re: Pinquicula in the Wild At 10:34 AM 1/2/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >In the past year, I have visited various bogs in the Northeast. I have seen >Drosera, Sarracenia and Utricularia in abundance, but I have never seen >Pinquicula. From what I understand, Butterworts don't grow in bogs, but what >type of environment do they grow in? I am interested in viewing this genus >in the wild, but I can never seem to find it. Does anyone know of a >Pinquicula viewing spot in the Northeast? What type of environment would it >grow in? What type of areas should I look for? Thanks. In northern Michigan, Pinguicula vulgaris grows in areas called marl fens. These are calcareous seeps usually in the form of a wide delta along a stream leading into a lake or the Great Lakes. These areas are open wetlands, without trees or shrubs, at most a cover of Cyperaceae. They usually have a characteristic white-ashy colored mud (marl) but are perhaps even more recognizable by the large numbers of CP present, in particular, Sarracenia purpurea. Drosera linearis, D. rotundifolia (and hybrids between these Drosera), Utricularia cornuta, U. intermedia, and Pinguicula vulgaris are frequently found growing with the Sarracenia, but each in slightly different microhabitats (on hummocks vs. wet depressions between them). The Pinguicula seems most particular about its substrate and is not found in all marl fens, even those hosting the other species. In Michigan it is restricted to fens along the Great Lakes, but I was surprised to find it growing in mossy cracks in boulders farther north in Ontario (boulders are so rare in Michigan, perhaps it would grow on them there if there were any!) Keep an eye open for Pinguicula wherever you find Primula mistassinica. Michael Chamberland ################### From: Phil Sheridan Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1981 15:17:11 -0800 Subject: Cephalotus Hi Folks: I have noticed several requests for Cephalotus purchase in the United States. Please note that we have this plant in stock. Our catalog may be found at our web site at www.pitcherplant.org. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:55:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: ICPS in 2001 Hey folks, A new year has come, and my Star Trek 2000 calendar has been replaced, to my co-workers chagrin, with a new Star Trek calendar (Kirk is looking tough!). And with the new year, I thought that somebody should welcome in the new board of directors for the ICPS. Leaving our board are Madeleine Groves, Joe Mazrimas, and Rick Walker. Our new board consists of: David Gray--new to the board Cindy Slezak--new to the board John Brittnacher--new to the board ---and persisting with the board, in alphabetical order.... Jay Lechtman Carl Mazur Barry Meyers-Rice Jan Schlauer Those of you who attended the ICPS 2000 conference met David and Cindy, who organized the event. They are amazingly energetic. John Brittnacher has been in charge of the seedbank and web ring, and has done great things for both. All hail the new order! To infinity, and beyond! Never surrender, never give up, full speed ahead! Live long and you know what! Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:31:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neat photos Hi everyone. This past summer during the ICPS Conference, Andrew Broome from New Zealand came by to see my collection along with photographer friend Peter Sebborne. Peter took many photos of my many collections of cp's and indoor lowland growing chamber. Andrew's excellent web page can be found by going to: http://photos.yahoo.com/ajbroome You will find all the photos that were taken and some excellent other photos of their travels on the southeast coast USA. Andrew did me great justice and I want the world to know how thankful I am. My best wishes to you Andrew and to you Peter for an excellent 2001 life experience. I know I'm looking forward to it. Phil Faulisi ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 18:36:03 -0800 Subject: CP Listserv Archives Updated Archives the for this CP listserv from 1990-2000 have been added to the CP database at http://www2.labs.agilent.com/botany/cp/html/marchive.htm The messages can be displayed sorted by author, thread, subject or date. Best regards, -- Rick Walker ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:04:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy Dear Tommy > i have encounter a problem that most cper and plant lovers know, a > missing of space in my room! Since a good part of my cp are Sarracenia, i > tought i could try to put all of them, or at least most of them, outside for > winter (i live in Quebec, between Montreal and Qc on the north shore). Since > few species like S.leuco. and S.flava come from southern location and > hybrids, i fear that the cold outside who kill those species, inlikely the > S.purpurea, who are already there... Well, you're on the right track here... However, S. luecophylla and S. flava are both hardy plants. You assumption about S. purpurea is also correct, *but* some people still believe that the "S. purpurea" from the Florida panhandle are _S. purpurea_. If you have these plants, they will not make through your winter outside. The two species that not so hardy are _S.psittacina_ and _S. rosea_. Most lump rosea in with purpurea. If you grow the plants in pots, then you'll really need a cold frame. Without one, you run the risk of drying out your plants in the dry winter air. This is a far more important point than worrying about the temps... An exposed pot with any hardy plant in it is more likely than not to die. If you follow your plan with the picnic table, I would also mulch them with something that has a consistentency similiar to wet wood chips in order to help maintain the pots at a decent moisture level. Check and water as needed (it's difficult to tell if the soil is frozen or dry) or shovel snow on top. Oh, if you still have your Sarracenia inside, it's most likely way too late to move them out... They would die just from the shock. It takes them about a month to adjust and get ready for dormancy. Dave Evans ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 00:24:20 -0500 Subject: Question about Sarracenia dormancy (with S. rosea) and other southern Sarracenia ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:15 PM > > Well, you're on the right track here... However, S. luecophylla and S. > flava are both hardy plants. You assumption about S. purpurea is also > correct, *but* some people still believe that the "S. purpurea" from the > Florida panhandle are _S. purpurea_. If you have these plants, they will > not make through your winter outside. The two species that not so hardy are > _S.psittacina_ and _S. rosea_. > Most lump rosea in with purpurea. I have a question. What are peoples experience with S. purpurea burkii in a more northern climate with dormancy? As a grower in Florida I do not understand that it is often lumped in with S. psittacina as a hard plant to put through dormancy in more northern locations. Yet the natural range of S. psittacina goes into extreme southeastern SC along the Savannah River, where I have seem them myself. Climatically this is in a more northern USDA zone than the range of S. leucophylla (which shares a deep southern region with S. purpurea burkii) or S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea). I am of the opinion that all of these species can take very cold conditions and are all equally hardy on the short term. I think it must be duration of cold period (months) that must weaken the plants and allow disease. The extremes in temperature fluctuation in habitat are severe. From below freezing to highs in the 70s sometimes in the same day or week. This year it is very cold, well below normal. But even in normal winters it is very cold out in the woods in the deep southern Pine Flatwoods during the nights. I just can not understand how one can pull S. leucophylla through dormancy in Penn, NJ or Mi and not pull S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea) through using the same methods. Take care, ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida USA > ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 15:52:42 +0930 Subject: Drosera Thanks to those who emailed me regarding the Drosera I saw at Litchfield Nat. Park. The description given by Fernando Rivadavia - "the ones I saw were also about 2cm in diameter and dark pink-red in color. The leaves were wedge-shaped, with very short petioles nearly indistiguishable from the lamina with the sticky tentacles." matches the plants I saw and therefore it would appear that they are the ubiquitous D. burmannii. I'm sure the flowers were pink but I can't remember if they were open. Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 01:58:44 EST Subject: Miguel Hi All, Sorry to post this here. Would Miguel who wanted the catalog please e-mail me with your address again? It went bye-bye. Thanks, Joe Griffin ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:01:09 +0000 Subject: Experience? Anyone out there ever put video on a web page? If so, respond to paultemple@bigfoot.com if willing to share knowledge. This is a CP related question! Cheers Pau ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:36:35 +0000 Subject: Erratum Hi all. How are you? My absence was caused by Netscape6 (avoid it until it's bugs ae fixed) so my numerous responses to all those Pinguicula moranensis discussions never arrived here on the listserver. Then again, you all missed my best wishes for the new cntury and millenium, now that it's finally arrived! But neither point is why I write. No, I write instead because I just received the new CP Newsletter, or more specifically because of an error in it. Now believe me when I say that in addition to being quite unable to upstage Adrian Slack, I also have no intention of trying (ever!). However, I was quite astounded to see myslef mentioned in amoungst the various articles designed to give tribute to Adrian. I'm a lucky man. I've managed to befriend so many of the well known names in the CP world. The famous, the technicians, the explorers, the hobbiests and the commercial suppliers. So I can count Paul Gardner, who bought Marston Exotics from Adrian, as a friend (though it's rare that we ever see each other). But I'm afraid my friend has become a victim of my ability (I don't know how I developed it) to promote myself. Therefore, I find myself accidentally elevated by Paul from having been a member of the British Carnivorous Plant society to it's co-founder - with Adrian!. Oh how I could wish that it were so. But it isn't and wasn't. From memory, I believe Adrian co-founded the CPS with John Watson (a now famous British horticulturalist). I'm not sure if John Sirkett was also a co-founder but he may have been, or joined almost immediately after the start. I joined about 1 year after the start. Although I was on the committee, this is hardly a claim to co-founding claim. It was an honest mistake by Paul, but I can't let it go. Meanwhile, well done Barry - its a totally different CPN that pays just homage to the man most of us "oldies" think of as the father of the modern CP hobby. Not because he was first (Adrian always owned up to gaining much of his expertise from others who started earlier) , not because he was "best", but simply because his book made the hobby accessible and possible to all. It was a great idea and fun to learn more not only of Adrian but of those who knew him. Cheers Paul ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:14:00 EST Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy (with S. rosea) and other southern Sa... In a message dated 1/2/2001 11:32:50 PM Central Standard Time, stovehouse@earthlink.net writes: << ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Evans" To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:15 PM Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy > > Well, you're on the right track here... However, S. luecophylla and S. > flava are both hardy plants. You assumption about S. purpurea is also > correct, *but* some people still believe that the "S. purpurea" from the > Florida panhandle are _S. purpurea_. If you have these plants, they will > not make through your winter outside. The two species that not so hardy are > _S.psittacina_ and _S. rosea_. > Most lump rosea in with purpurea. I have a question. What are peoples experience with S. purpurea burkii in a more northern climate with dormancy? As a grower in Florida I do not understand that it is often lumped in with S. psittacina as a hard plant to put through dormancy in more northern locations. Yet the natural range of S. psittacina goes into extreme southeastern SC along the Savannah River, where I have seem them myself. Climatically this is in a more northern USDA zone than the range of S. leucophylla (which shares a deep southern region with S. purpurea burkii) or S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea). I am of the opinion that all of these species can take very cold conditions and are all equally hardy on the short term. I think it must be duration of cold period (months) that must weaken the plants and allow disease. The extremes in temperature fluctuation in habitat are severe. From below freezing to highs in the 70s sometimes in the same day or week. This year it is very cold, well below normal. But even in normal winters it is very cold out in the woods in the deep southern Pine Flatwoods during the nights. I just can not understand how one can pull S. leucophylla through dormancy in Penn, NJ or Mi and not pull S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea) through using the same methods. Take care, ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida USA > I agree with Mike, I have never had a problem with S. pupurea burkeii, and in some of the past winters (like the current one) my outdoor bogs have been solid blocks of ice for a couple of months. I can not remember a single winter related loss of any Sarracenia in 25 years of growing them outdoors year round here in Memphis. That includes leucophylla, alata, psitticina, etc. The only problem ones likely to encounter with winter temperatures is extremely cold wind chill, so if the bog is protected from the wind there should be no problem. Our night temperatures here have been in the single digits farenheit for about a month, and all Sarracenias can handle temperatures like this with no problem. In fact, I dont believe we have been above freezing for 3 weeks. But these temperatures are much different than 30-60 below freezing that northern areas can experience with wind chill. The other problem would be a late snow cover after the plants have resumed growth. Although April snows have not adversely affected my plants here, cold wet snow in the spring have been known to cause vft's to rot. Of the Sarracenias, the only plant I have a slight problem with is alata flowers which can rot if they experience freezing temperatures after they break forth from the rhizome. I have remedied this by keeping flooding the bog in late January to keep the plants from flowering too early. Michael Catalani Memphis TN USA ################### From: Kit Halsted Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:33:17 -0500 Subject: Re:Experience? I can't design my way out of a paper bag, but the techie stuff is no problem... See for my experiment with video on the web, feel free to ask if you have any questions. -Kit At 4:20 AM -0800 1/3/01, Paul Temple wrote: >Anyone out there ever put video on a web page? >If so, respond to if willing to share knowledge. > >This is a CP related question! > >Cheers > >Pau -- Kit Halsted Network Administrator, Blue Dingo/GB ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:08:47 -0800 Subject: Bruce Bednar Hi everyone, Does anyone know if Bruce is still online? His website (Lee's Botanical) appears to be defunct. Thanks in advance. Chris ################### From: CALIFCARN@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:12:08 EST Subject: Re: The Newsletter Hey folks, Peter here at California Carnivores: I just wanted to congratulate Barry and the staff at the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter for their superb December issue on Adrian Slack. I found it quite enjoyable and it was great to see a photo of Adrian, who's looking great. A most enjoyable issue, and I know many people put a lot of effort into it. Happy New Year. ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:02:30 -0500 Subject: storing Drosera gemmae > I'd appreciate advice on whether or not it's possible to store Drosera > gemmae for 2 to 3 months until the blizzards here in North America have > ended (at least for Atlanta.) I have D. pulchella and nitidula that are > literally bursting with gemmae and would like to wait until March before > putting them in the outside bogs. > > Atlanta has had it's 3rd coldest December on record and it seems to freeze > every night now so January and February will probably be much the same. I > thought of storing them in damp paper towels and putting them in the > refrigerator just above freezing. Anyone have any experience with this? > > Thanks for your help, > David > Atlanta > > P.S. Someone mentioned earlier that they had trouble getting their pygmy > Drosera to produce gemmae. I grow mine under lights in the basement so > they are at a fairly constant temperature now, probably somewhere around > 65 to 70 F, warming slightly while the lights are on. I think the trick > was to reduce the photo period to probably somewhere around 8 hours a day. > Within about 4 weeks they have produced gemmae. ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:08:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy (with S. rosea) and other southern Sa... Dear Mike and Michael, Both S.psittacina and S. rosea don't seem to be very flower-bud hardy when grown outside in bogs, in New Jersey. Yes, all Sarracenia are hardy plants. This is a point I have been telling people for years... These two, they do not seem as hardy as the rest of Sarracenia. Even when the flowers do form, they tend to be deformed and most never set seed. These are symptoms of not being flower-bud hardy in the New Jersey climate zone. Plants that show these qualilties can be expected to do worst (fewer flowers, more leaf damage and more deaths) in colder climate zones. Cold frames were invented specifically for the winter storage of such plants, among other uses, like keeping woody buds dormant into the growning season so they can be grafted onto activity growing stock. Dave Evans ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:30:52 +0000 Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy Tom, > i have encounter a problem that most cper and plant lovers > know, a >missing of space in my room! Since a good part of my cp are >Sarracenia, i tought i could try to put all of them, or at least most >of them, outside for winter (i live in Quebec, between Montreal and Qc >on the north shore). Since few species like S.leuco. and S.flava come >from southern location and hybrids, i fear that the cold outside who >kill those species, inlikely the S.purpurea, who are already there... >I am thinking of building a kind of cold frame from next winter, but i >just tought an easy way to do such thing: do placing all my plants >under a picnic table, cover with a thick plastic like the one they make >car shelter, would be enough to protect them? I have some space in the >garage too, which protect plants from wind, and a little from cold, but >the temp do go under 0degC there too... Any idea on how to keep these >plants outside safely would be appreciated. Thanks a lot and happy new >year all! > Unless you can find someone else with experience growing these plants outside in your growing area I suspect you are just going to have to experiment with plants that you are prepared to lose if necessary. Sometimes its the only way. I suspect however, that your arrangement will suit fine. With some hardy plants it is not so much the freezing that kills them but desiccation. With the soil around the roots frozen the plants are not able to replace moisture stripped from the leaves by cold winds. Your proposed shelter sounds as if it will eliminate this problem. One other thing to bear in mind. Watch out for problems once the thaw sets in. As the soil thaws it allows pockets of moisture to build up in the crowns of the rhizome. This encourages botrytis mould, which can multiply very quickly and kill your plant. With a little introduce aeration you should be able to minimise this but I would not recommend you grow S. psittacina outside as this is by far the most susceptible species. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:38:02 +0000 Subject: UKCPS Newsletter Hi, This is a message for UKCPS members only. The last newsletter of the year has been delayed but is at the printers at the moment. UK members should recieve it by the end of this month - overseas members will be about five days later. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:30:34 +0000 Subject: Re: storing Drosera gemmae David, > >> I'd appreciate advice on whether or not it's possible to store Drosera >> gemmae for 2 to 3 months until the blizzards here in North America have >> ended (at least for Atlanta.) I have D. pulchella and nitidula that are >> literally bursting with gemmae and would like to wait until March before >> putting them in the outside bogs. >> >From memory it all depends on the species. Some species produce small and quite flat gemmae, like fish scales. These can be kept dormant by storing them in wet paper towels in bags in the fridge. The other species that produce larger and "fatter" gemmae do not store in the fridge. They will try to grow whatever temperature they are stored at. >From memory both D. pulchella and D. nitidula both produce fish scale like gemmae and should store well in the fridge. I once tried keeping some D. pulchella gemmae in the fridge for six months with reasonable success. The longer you keep them the less survive. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:43:51 +0100 Subject: Missed Hi folks, sorry, but somehow I have missed the cp digest 2419. Could someone please forward it to me? Thanks! Marcus Ah... and: Happy New Year! ################### From: "Tommy Landry" Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 23:32:10 Subject: Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating) Hi list, i have a problem with my pots of pygmies sundews: all the plants are overwhelmed by little mosses... Is there any tips to avoid these to grow from the peat moss? Thanks Tom ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:48:53 +0100 Subject: French conservationists wanted! I would be interested to contact somebody in France involved in the conservation projects of the Dionee association (or other cons. projects), especially about Aldrovanda. Thanks and good growing! Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy (responsible of the Conservation Project of the Italian CP Society) ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:29:07 +0100 Subject: Re: storing Drosera gemmae > From memory both D. pulchella and D. nitidula both produce fish scale > like gemmae and should store well in the fridge. I once tried keeping > some D. pulchella gemmae in the fridge for six months with reasonable > success. The longer you keep them the less survive. I made the same experience with D. pulchella and D. x 'Lake Badgerup'. Don't forget to use some fungicide on the wet paper you put the gemmae in. Take care, Marcus ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:08:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sarracenia dormancy To the individual who lives in Quebec, here is an idea that may work for you. In my experience with Sarracenia and cold winters I have grown them in many climatic extremes. I live in central California but used to live in Rochester, NY where winers are similar to that of Quebec. If you have land space available in your back yard you can dig a trench deep enough to place the pots into and cover them with a thick mulching of leaves, pine needles, dry peat moss etc. I would first dust the rhizomes with powdered sulfer or spray with a very good fungicide. Under these conditions I had noticed that even my flytraps stayed somewhat green even under the deepest layers of snow. Most of the southern species of sarracenia are somewhat hardy, but they will be much happier if their entire root system does not freeze solid. Although they may surpirse you. This may not be the best solution according to some people, but it is a safe one. Mulching saved many of my plants in the past. Good luck. Phil ################### From: "Weaver, Kevin" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:43:35 -0800 Subject: Pictures Hello, Guess what Kevin got for Christmas? A scanner! Yayy! So, if anyone's interested in seeing pictures from my small collection of CP's I grow outdoors (and a few indoors) in San Francisco, please email me and I'll send them to you. I also have 3 pictures of the Nepenthes inside of the Conservatory of Flowers, which still won't be open for another 3 years. Kevin ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 13:10:20 EST Subject: Re: Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating) Tom, Nuking the peat in a microwave for about nine minutes seems to cut down on a lot of the unwanted flora an fauna. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:49:49 +0000 Subject: Dumb Question No. 1 OK. Comes a time when everyone has to prove themselves dumb. So to anyone not already convinced of my idiocy, here's a really dump question that was prompted by Tommy's "Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating)". Tommy isn't alone, most of us get plagued by moss overtaking a pot. So why do plants in wild habitats not get similarly overcome by rampant moss growth? I can't believe it's own to moss eating animals as they surely would eat the precious plants first. My experience of wandering in habitats is that moss is not a problem, it does not seem to present a risk and plants can mature without being overcome. Any views? Cheers Paul ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 12:18:57 +0000 Subject: Numbers (- Time I started another argument!) This listserver has been very polite for a while! (I wonder if my absence had anything to do with it?). So, at great risk (we will see if the risk is realised), I pose the question: Are CP'ers the laziest plant enthusiasts in the world of horticulture? Let me cite 3 other groups who rank up there in the clouds with CP'ers, as fanatical collectors with significant membership of world wide and international societies. The examples would be for Cacti, Orchids and Alpine Plants. In all three cases, look at the plant lists circulated by these societies, both by members and by the societies themselves, either for plants or seeds. Then look too at the commercial outlets and the plant or seed lists they produce. Now compare these with the same for CP's. See a difference. No? You're not looking closely enough. Try again. Got it now? Tried glasses? Ah! Now you have it. All three not only show a plant name, but whenever possible they show a Collection Number assigned to the plant when the plant or its parent was first collected in the wild. When did you see such a thing in the CP world? This is not a vacuous point just to raise an argument. Some of us like to hope we are contribuing in some small way to conservation. Should a plant die out in the wild, we can hope to replace it (no, no no, please don't restart that argument), even if wee do have to ensure we use enough material to guarantee genetic variation. But how could we hope to do that if we don't know a plant's origins? I'm willing to bet that not one of the professionals amoungst us (paid botanists of any persuasion: taxonomists, conservationists, etc.) will argue against the need for Collection Numbers to be assigned to wild collected plants (I'm not going to get distracted here by discussion of the legality of plant collecting in the wild). So, I seriously hope this does not attract trivial or cynical responses. But I also hope to provoke a serious discussion from all those who seriously care about the identity of their plants. So I am truly asking the question: are CP people really as lazy (with regard to assigning Collection Numbers) as seems true from reading published lists and, if not, where have all those Collection Numbers gone? Regards Paul ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:14:35 EST Subject: Re: Dumb Question No. 1 Paul, Not a dumb question at all. I can only speculate on the possibilities... First, pygmies in the wild seem to grow in much harsher conditions than we grow them. How many pictures in Lowrie's books have you seen them and tuberous and even D. binata growing in pure to almost-pure sand? Second, are you using Australian peat? Mine is usually Canadian, so even though peat does come from live sphagnum, it doesn'nt mean that the same mosses and small animals have to be found in peat from halfway around the world. I was thinking that the import/export regulations are strict partially due to soil, and not just plants. The moss that springs up in Canadian peat is not subjected to the harsh climates that these plants are, so the spores are well established in the peat we use, coming from a damper year-round area. Okay, those are some of my ideas. What does everyone else have? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:25:23 -0500 Subject: collection numbers > are CP people really as lazy (with regard to assigning >Collection Numbers) as seems true from reading published lists and, if >not, where have all those Collection Numbers gone? I don't have collection numbers, but am rabid about keeping collection data on the seed I collect. I always pass that information along whenever I distrbute seed and usually indicate when the seed are wild collected or taken from plants in my collection. Does that count!!!!! David Atlanta ################### From: MCliff428@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 17:03:28 EST Subject: Re: Dumb Question No. 1 On trips to Canada, I have seen Sarracenia purpurea that were literally buried in Sphagnum. Only the opening and lip of the pitcher were showing. I suppose that these plants reseed themselves so often that they can afford to become buried in Sphagnum and still carry on a healthy population. ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 15:57:56 +1100 Subject: Utric seed Hi All I have a very limited number of Australian Utric seeds available for trade if anyone is interested. I am searching for U. inaequalis (volubilis), 'Tomoku' (alpina x endressi), U. amethystina, U. macrorhiza, U. infalata, U. quelchii, U. humboldtii, U. campbelliana, U. jamesoniana, U. asplundii or anything interesting or epiphitic. I have FRESH collected seed of U. uniflora, U. lateriflora (typical and white flower) U. uliginosa, U. minutissima, U. dichotoma, and U styermorkii. I also have fresh Stylidium graminifolium seed (The largest form with probably the most beautiful flowers). Thanks Greg ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:56:14 +0100 Subject: Re: Dumb Question No. 1 >Tommy isn't alone, most of us get plagued by moss overtaking a pot. So >why do plants in wild habitats not get similarly overcome by rampant >moss growth? I can't believe it's own to moss eating animals as they >surely would eat the precious plants first. My experience of wandering >in habitats is that moss is not a problem, it does not seem to present a >risk and plants can mature without being overcome. > >Any views? We usually grow our plants in very protected conditions (greenhouses and similar) and there mosses can grow very well. On the other hand, the conditions in the wild are very difficult and dramatic: plants have to resist to horrible weather conditions among which heavy rains with soil movement and erosion. And there the small mosses can't grow very well and must fight hard to survive. Did you ever try growing pigmies on very sandy soil kept outdoors under the rain? I can ensure no much moss will grow there! Also in the wild, however, there are places where mosses grow well; in most of these places CPs don't grow. One of the exceptions is Sphagnum moss, on which a number of species lives well. But it is not an easy life: plants have to climb very fast there not to be overgrown by the moss and they form a slender stem instead of the typical rosette of leaves which they form on pure peat. Good growing! Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:56:18 +0100 Subject: Re: Numbers (- Time I started another argument!) >Ah! Now you have it. All three not only show a plant name, but >whenever possible they show a Collection Number assigned to the plant >when the plant or its parent was first collected in the wild. When did >you see such a thing in the CP world? A number of growers consider this very useful and important and keep the data about provenance of plants. The problem is that many others are not interested about this and don't care about the data (in fact this effort is time consuming when you grow many species); and so many information is lost when the plants are spread among the collectors. It would be very useful to define a standard method to indicate these data so to make it quick and easy. I'm sure many growers would cooperate when told about the importance of this practice. Happy growing to everybody! Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:32:32 -0500 Subject: Sarracenia dormancy Hello all, Digging a pit to put dormant Sarracenia in sounds like a very good idea. I have done this, when I lived in Colorado, to create long stemmed Tulips, using sand instead of leaves or pine needles. One major consideration is, this should probably be done before perma-frost sets in. I would think it might be a major undertaking this time of year, in Quebec. Just a thought. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, (perma-frost free) Florida USA ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating) Tom, > i have a problem with my pots of pygmies sundews: all the plants are >overwhelmed by little mosses... Is there any tips to avoid these to grow >from the peat moss? Thanks > I think if you substitute the top 5mm or so of soil with some medium sized lime free grit this helps with the moss problems though they will inevitably grow through in a few years still. I have used granite grit in the past when I can get it as the grey colour contrasts well with the plants and it is guaranteed to be lime free. The only problem with this is when starting new plants from gemmae since there is not much in the grit to retain moisture. Once established the plant's roots will have penetrated to the peat below the grit. With care though the gemmae will establish okay. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thorbj=F8rn_Str=F8m-Hansen?= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:52:47 +0100 Subject: Greenhouses: Poly-carbonate versus ordinary glass I have been a "small-scale" CP grower for some years, with a collection of Sarracenias and the ordinary Droseras, Pinguiculas and Utricularias. In order to expand the collection, I have decided to build a regular greenhouse (approx. 10 m2) in a sunny corner of my garden. However, at the local greenhouse supplier I was confronted with the question: should it be with ordinary glass or with poly-carbonate (double layer plates)? My first decision was to take poly-carbonate as it provides better insulation than ordinary glass. Since I am living in Denmark, which occasionally gets quite cold during winter time, this aspect is certainly worth taking into account. On the other hand, the poly-carbonate is not fully transparent and I am concerned about reducing the light intensity. So, I would be very interested to learn from experience that you may have with poly-carbonate in greenhouses for growing CP. Thanks, Thorbj\370rn Bagsv(1/2)rd Denmark ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:26:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Polycarbonate vs glass If you use polycarbonate panels you will still get more than enough light transmission for excellent growth of almost any plant, even cacti. Unless you experience low amounts of full clear sunshine I would go the extra mile for the polycarb panels. They also insulate way better than orginary glass, are resistant to hail or falling obstacles like pine cones and even baseballs :) and will cut down some on harmful UV. Twin wall polycarbonate does cost quite a lot, but it is an excellent glazing material. Most high quality commercial horticulturists I ave ever known or visited use this material either on the roof alone with something else on the side walls, or they use it entirely. They must know better than we do I would think. Again, it is personal preference. Glass will work just fine but poly has more to offer for permanance, damage resistance, insulation and UV protection. One more thing....poly helps break up and distrbute the sunlight rather than allowing it to beat down on the plants in full force. This would allow for less use of shade cloth. Have fun with your new greenhouse whatever your decision. Once you have it you'll wonder how you got by for so long without one. Phil ################### From: "mike wilder" Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 20:26:10 -0000 Subject: d. montana var. tomentosa flowering size hello, recently someone asked about typical flowering size for d. montana var. tomentosa. i have little experience with this plant but thought i'd write since no one else did. my plant was grown from seed sown last spring, and it is just now flowering at about 3cm. i also grow var. schwackii (spelling.?), but it has so far refused to grow any larger than 1.4 cm. --mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:55:59 EST Subject: Re: New Zealand Sphagnum Moss Source Hi All, A source was given to me for NZ sphagnum, Ann Mann's Orchids if Florida. Well just to pass this on, they no longer sell moss and deal esclusively with orchids and foggers for greenhouses. Regards, Joe Griffn Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:12:13 -0500 Subject: Sundews for Sale (Cheap) Hey there, CP buddies... I've got to get rid of the following plants. Most are leftovers from the last plant sale. This time, ALL PLANTS MUST BE SOLD! -US Only. -$20 minimum order. PLEASE INCLUDE YOUR ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER. -Add $5.00 additional for packaging and shipping. All packages sent Priority Mail. -Plants will be shipped bare-rooted, in plastic. Size is indicated in description. -Payment should be made following receipt of plants. -No returns or refunds, sorry :( I reserve the right to make substitutes if necessary. Please list subs and I will try my best to accommodate you. DROSERA - Sundews (quantity available in parentheses) admirabilis, nice S African rosette w.wedge shaped leaves 1" wide (3) $5ea binata T form (dormant) (2+) $3ea capillaris SE USA, 1" wide (10) flowering size, 2 for $5 capensis alba, green form, to 1" wide (9) 2 for $5 capensis giant (5) 2"+ $4ea capensis red, to 1" wide (8+) 2 for $5 hamiltonii, West Australian <1" wide, (2+) $3ea intermedia x capillaris, natural hybrid, 1" wide (6+) flowering size $4ea madagascariensis Rhodesia (4") (1) $5ea nidiformis, recent S African discovery, 1" (4) $3ea peltata, tuberous, fuzzy white sepals, 1/2" wide from seed (many) 5 for $5 "x Nightmare"" = rotundifolia x intermedia, discovered by Jim Bockowski in the NJ Pine Barrens, can grow to ~6" wide! <1" wide (15+) 2 for $5 spatulata 'pink' (Kawanam Mire, Kyushu, Japan) (12) flowering size 2 for $5 spatulata (Queenstown, Tazmania) (9) flowering size 2 for $5 x watari 1/2" easy and vigorous spatulata x anglica (12+), 2 for $5 x "snydermoto" to 1/2" (24+), 3 for $5 Happy Growing! SundewMatt http://www.geocities.com/sundewmatt ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:51:50 -0500 Subject: RE: d. montana var. tomentosa flowering size >recently someone asked about typical flowering size for d. montana var. tomentosa. My v. tomentosa have flowered on what I consider very small plants, probably just a little larger than the flowering size of brevifolia. I haven't measured flowering tomentosa but am guessing that they were less than 1/2 inch (about 2.2 cm). David Atlanta ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:16:28 -0600 Subject: Re: Greenhouses: Poly-carbonate versus ordinary glass I have worked with double-layered poly houses for years in retail and wholesale horticulture, as well as at home, with my own little poly house. Though the light transmission may be reduced somewhat compared to glass, it really seems quite adequate for all the uses I've seen it in (growing annuals, perennials, etc.). The only greenhouse covering I've seen that is really poor for light transmission is old fiberglass, which degrades substantially with age. The poly is replaced every three to four years. Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:19:47 -0600 Subject: Re: Polycarbonate Ooops... I was talking about polyethylene film, actually, not rigid polycarbonate panels... that will teach me to read and respond too quickly! I DON'T have much experience with these rigid panels (too expensive for my budget). Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: Tim Metcalf Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:41:38 -0800 Subject: Greenhouses: Poly-carbonate versus glass Dear Thorbj, Here in the central valley of California we don't have hail but have intense sunlight eight months of the year so have had the double wall polycarbonate age and yellow in five years. Also, at low sun angles (Winter) the light transmission ability of the double wall drops off because light has to travel through the supporting bars in the panels. The single wall is more resistant to aging but it does not have as much insulating capacity. Many commercial people around here building permanent greenhouses use large span tempered glass. I would recommend speaking with other commercial and collection people in your area to see what works best under your conditions. During the summer we whitewash the glass or have automatic shade curtains to reduce and diffuse the light. The polycarbonate houses need little or no whitewash/ shading because the light is diffused which makes the lighting omnidirectional, reaching the plant from every side resulting in better more even form. Tim Tim Metcalf Plant Biology One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616-8537 (530) 752-0569 FAX 5410 http://greenhouse.ucdavis.edu ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:06:45 +0100 Subject: re:Small D. montana tomentosa flowering > hello, > recently someone asked about typical flowering size for d. montana var. > tomentosa. i have little experience with this plant but thought i'd write > since no one else did. my plant was grown from seed sown last spring, and it > is just now flowering at about 3cm. i also grow var. schwackii > (spelling.?), but it has so far refused to grow any larger than 1.4 cm. > --mike > Hi Mike, That was me, thanks for the reply. Actually I did get a response privately and I got the answers I wanted, the small size was not a problem and this species was self fertile although "hand pollination" resulted in more seed. I also have D. montana var. schwackei and have problems with this species too. Grew OK in the beginning, then stalled and produced smaller leaves (dormancy?). One is approx. the same size as yours, but the rest are smaller. In my case the problem might be because of high temperature. Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:07:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: NZ sphagnum source For anyone interested, you can find New Zealand sphagnum moss at the following web site for Cal West Tropical Supplies in Riverside, California. www.calwesttropical.com They sell only AAA quality product. I met them at the Santa Barbara Orchid Fair last year and was glad I did. I haven't been able to find it any where else. Enjoy! Phil ################### From: JWi5770869@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:22:13 EST Subject: pets eat prizes In a message dated 02/01/01 08:39:58 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > Moral of the story, if you protect your plants at all cost! Even from Pets > that you think will never be interested in them. > Yes I had exactly this problem but with a Drosophyllum, which was donated by Steve Gordon in Liverpool (Hi Steve!!!!!). My prize plant, until the moggy had finished with it. Suffice to say I now keep my plants in the greenhouses (including my only grown from seed Drosophyllum). John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: JWi5770869@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:42:44 EST Subject: polycarbonate on greenhouses In a message dated 07/01/01 09:02:05 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > So, I would be very interested to learn from experience that you may have > with poly-carbonate in greenhouses for growing CP. > > Thanks, > Thorbj\370rn > > Bagsv(1/2)rd > Denmark Thorbjrn (?) On completing my second greenhouse, I have used the double skinned polycarb on the north facing side. The reason being that its primarily a safety feature (with an active young son, it needs to be) and I couldn't afford safety glass. The main problem with the polycarb (6mm thickness) is that it flexes to much and can sometimes fly out of the frame in high winds! If I was going to construct another greenhouse I would not use this polycarb again. Hope this helps John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: "Andy Falshaw" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:53:51 +1300 Subject: sites in/near perth, cape town I'm off to a conference in Cape Town later this month (anyone else off to the international seaweed symposium?) via a day or two in Perth each way. Can anyone recommend places to see cps in/near these places? Is there anywhere to see byblis near perth? After the conference I'm off on a tour through "the Langeberg mountains, Garden Route ... Knysna lagoon... Nature's Valley .... Tsitsikamma Coastal National Park, Addo Elephant National Park, Oudtshoorn, Cango Caves little karoo" If anyone has any suggestions what to look out for (cps, birds, bugs, anything) in any of these places I'd be grateful. thanks Andy wellington, nz ################### From: psher001@odu.edu Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:58:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Cephalotus and C. Brewer Hi Folks: Looking for Charlie Brewer. Charlie, my friend Ed Munn is interested in some Cephalotus from you. Can you please call him (collect if needed) at (703) 465-8589. Please let him know availability and price. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Meadowview ################### From: "Terry Beale" Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:38:21 -0500 Subject: Can you help me? Hi my name is Holly Beale. I am 8 years old. I am doing a project for my school's social science fair, called Carnivorous Plants: Man's Friend or Enemy? I have written a lot of the report and now I need to do the backdrop which will have pictures and maybe I can have some sort of model or something fun for people to look at. I found a great website and the man said that sometimes he had extra plants to give away but when I wrote to him he said that he had just given away his extra ones but he thought that maybe somebody at this email list might be able to help me if they have a plant they don't need anymore that they could send me for my project. My mom can pay you back for the postage cost. The only thing is that the social science fair is the week after next so I would have to get it quick. If you can send it to me, my address is: 2970 Marlin Circle, Atlanta, GA 30341. You can write me back at my mom's email address which is terrybeale@mindspring.com. Thank you! Holly [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Stig Henning Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:21:05 +0100 Subject: Unsubscribe...me. (I can to it automaticly) Hi, I have been logged on with 2 email adresses. Please remove "sthune@c2i.net" from your reciever list. Thanx, btw; There is a contest going on in Norway, in which the winner will be able to give out a CD. Please visit: http://urort.nrk.no/cgi-bin/urort/band.cgi?2114 Click "lytt" (to listen to the music), then click "stem" Thanx, Regards, Stig Henning ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:03:48 -0500 Subject: U. pusilla? Dear List, I hope someone can help... When I was in California for the CP con, I received a bit of Utricularia. I unfortunately I don't recall who I received this from, but they said it was a flowering form of _U. subulata_. Well, I have U. subulata from many growers, thought I never really wanted it, since all it ever seems to do is produce cleistogamous flowers (which I find quite lame). Even the leaves are unappealing to me. I basically try to avoid spreading this weed into other pots, I hope it's now isolated outside in my bogs where it grows in the peatmoss and Sphagnum. I don't have any inside. Well, the idea of seeing U. subulata with real flowers was appealing. However, once I took a closer look, I wasn't so sure it was U. subulata, it just looked a bit more attractive, though nothing I could point out at the time. When I mentioned my doubt, the grower was adamant it was U. subulata. Not knowing much about Utricularia I didn't give it anymore thought. I just thought, "Hey, if it can actually flower, maybe the whole plant will look a bit different, being of another strain." Now, that the plant has grown and flowered I am even less sure. I recently purchased Peter Taylor's _Utricularia_, he mentions that U. subulata has subacute end to the leaves, this plant has rounded ends. Also, traps on subulata are numerous and can appear on the bottoms of the leaves, not so on this plant. The traps are sparsely found on the stems, I didn't see any on any leaves. Also, the leaves are not linear, but they widen a bit near the end. The flower does not match either of the figures for U. subulata or _U. pusilla_ in Taylor's monograph. It is close to both, but closer to the figure for U. pusilla. The spur is about twice as long as the bottom lip. In the figure for U. subulata, we are shown a side view of the flower, but not so for U. pusilla. The spur on my plant comes down and then juts forward, totally unlike what is shown in the figure for U. subulata. I almost certain it's not U. subulata now, but could it still be something other than U. pusilla? What can I look for to use for ID that doesn't involve using a microscope? Or must I locate a microscope to look for lots of hairs on the "oral appendages"? I didn't understand the part about sterile bracts... What is a bract and the 'raceme axis'? Thank-you, Dave Evans [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Brewer Charles E PHDN Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:21:18 -0500 Subject: RE: Cephalotus and C. Brewer This is for Phil Sheridan, Got your message. My email address is as follows: brewerce@nswcphdn.navy.mil I will call Ed tonight Cheers Charles > Hi Folks: > Looking for Charlie Brewer. Charlie, my friend Ed Munn is interested in > some Cephalotus from you. Can you please call him (collect if needed) at > (703) 465-8589. Please let him know availability and price. > > Sincerely, > > Phil Sheridan > Meadowview ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:32:57 -0500 Subject: RE: Can you help me? Hi Holly, You and your parents can visit me and I'll set you up with a variety of carnvirous plants at no charge. You can keep them afterwards or return them. I'm available this Saturday afternoon if you would like to come by. I live in Doraville near the intersection of 85 and 285. Here's my phone number: 770-270-5758. David ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:48:39 +0000 Subject: Re: U. pusilla? Dave, ..snip > it still be something other than U. pusilla? What can I look > for to use for ID that doesn't involve using a microscope? Or > must I locate a microscope to look for lots of hairs on the > "oral appendages"? I didn't understand the part about sterile > bracts... What is a bract and the 'raceme axis'? > I don't have my copy of Taylor to hand but one of the most useful means of identifying Utricularia species is from their seeds. If your plant is setting seed I suggest you try this. Of course if it appears to be self sterile this would be evidence enough that you don't have U. subulata! You don't need a microscope to see the detail on the seeds. Get a powerful hand lens or even better a jeweller's loupe. These are usually 10x or more and are excellent for viewing tiny detail as you have both hands free while using it. Here in the UK, you can get jeweller's loupes quite cheaply from good photographic stores - they are used to view slides and negatives. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:27:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taylor terminology Hey Dave, >for to use for ID that doesn't involve using a microscope? Or >must I locate a microscope to look for lots of hairs on the >"oral appendages"? I didn't understand the part about sterile >bracts... What is a bract and the 'raceme axis'? I wrote an article for CPN some time ago (1974) in which I discuss the details of scales, bracts, bracteoles, etc. This article is on the web at: http://www.sarracenia.com/pubs/focus4.html Basically, the main flowering stalk of a Utricularia plant is the raceme axis. Pedicels are the little stems that branch off the raceme axis and hold each flower. Bracts are the little tiny nibs at the base of the pedicel, where it joins with the raceme axis. Now, some bracts on the raceme axis are not at the base of a pedicel. It just looks like a little nib on the axis. This kind of bract, with no flower, is considered "sterile" (i.e. it is not associated with a flower). The difference between scales and bracts is subtle. Every bract above the bottom flower on the raceme axis is a bract, sterile or fertile. Every bract-like structure BELOW the lowermost flower is considered a scale. Barry ################### From: Phungi23@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:17:34 EST Subject: Leon's got yet another email adress! Hello everybody, throw out yer old email adress for me! I've moved my account again! Ya know, I'm going to toss out the Yahoo address as well, I never seem to remember the check it more than, well, never! Hope all is well, Ciao! Leon Phaby. Phungi23@aol.com ################### From: "Doug Barrett and Laura Ratti" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:58:42 -0800 Subject: pest problems I have a few minor pest problems on my CP's that I need some help solving. I have scale on a few of my Heliamphora. I also have some sap drops on some of my nepenthes. I don't know what is causing this but assume it is an insect. I also noticed some "pimples" on the leaves if my N. veitchii. There appears to be an egg on the underside of the leaf. I don't know if this is related to the leaking sap problem. I would prefer less toxic solutions but at the same time want to eliminate these unwanted critters. Thanks for the help. Doug Barrett dougnlaura@earthlink.net ################### From: john green Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:19:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Drooling Sarracenia The other day I was looking at my S. leuco 'Tarnok' and noticed an unusually large amount of sticky secretions, both at the top opening and around the lower 2 or 3 inches of the pitchers. I've seen this before with my other Sarrs, but usually it's most heavy around the opening with little on the rest of the pitcher (with the possible exception of the edge of the ala or wing). I looked all over the plant and could see no signs of scale or any other insect pests. There are a few other Sarrs nearby (different species) but none of them are exhibiting this excess. The stuff is practically running in drops down the pitchers! Is this normal for this species or do I just need to look a lot closer for pests? I've never had much of a problem with pests. I only aquired this plant a few months ago from ABG, but I'd think they could be trusted to be "clean." Could it be possible that the conditions I have it in are causing this? It is dormant in a cool spot, growing under lights with about a 10 hour photoperiod, and probably low humidity due to forced air heating inside the house. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah john.green@ascensus.com http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:34:20 -0200 Subject: RE: collection numbers To all, Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't bother looking it up. Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here and there or appear completely siteless after a while. Furthermore (and I've seen this happen several times), what germinates is sometimes not what was supposed to have germinated (some contaminant seed from a nearby pot or mixed with the original seeds) but is assumed by the less experient grower to be that species and is soon being traded around by the wrong name. Remember D.montana? I'm sure there are lots of people still growing spatulata thinking it's montana. Not to mention all those rosetted African species, most of which always turn out to be aliciae after a few months. I'm sure we can all think of such examples for Drosera, Neps, Pings or Utrics. So on the one hand I think that collection numbers would be quickly forgotten or mixed up. But then again, numbers are easier to remember than Grao Mogol, Kununurra, or Baine's Kloof (just to give 3 examples)... Best Wishes to all, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Wubs" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:06:50 -0500 Subject: Drosera filiformis I'm hoping that David Evans is reading this! David, could you please reply to me via email so that I can: a) Add you back into my data base which was accidentally erased! b) Thank you for the seed. c) Ask you something that may or may not be relevant to do so here. -jk [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:58:26 EST Subject: Pumice Hi All, Does anyone know a good source for horticultural pumice in the Midwest? I can't find it anywhere in town. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:17:46 +0000 Subject: Re: collection numbers Fernando et al... > Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection >numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. >How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the >label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of >taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't >bother looking it up. Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, >I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here and there or How true is this!! I guess us poor English speakers have a certain excuse because we aren't used to all those accented characters that appear in the Latin name places but I have even seen my Sarracenia location misspelled... When the error is pointed out I get treated as some sort of eccentric. :-) >appear completely siteless after a while. Furthermore (and I've seen this >happen several times), what germinates is sometimes not what was supposed to >have germinated (some contaminant seed from a nearby pot or mixed with the >original seeds) but is assumed by the less experient grower to be that >species and is soon being traded around by the wrong name. Remember >D.montana? I'm sure there are lots of people still growing spatulata >thinking it's montana. Not to mention all those rosetted African species, Growing it and selling or trading it! It actually amazes me that growers seem so naive in this respect. They always assume that whatever it says on the label or seed packet is correct. Personally I tend to assume the opposite these days. Until I can positively ID the plant it has a question mark by it and will not be traded. This applies to both Utricularia and Drosera. >most of which always turn out to be aliciae after a few months. I'm sure we >can all think of such examples for Drosera, Neps, Pings or Utrics. So on the >one hand I think that collection numbers would be quickly forgotten or mixed >up. But then again, numbers are easier to remember than Grao Mogol, >Kununurra, or Baine's Kloof (just to give 3 examples)... > Oh yes.... The one that immediately springs to mind is the P. ehlersae that was propagated in huge quantities and sold by several commercial nurseries as P. cyclosecta for years. It took ages to get everyone to recognise the real plant and even longer to get certain CP nurseries to change their catalogue ..... Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:34:50 -0500 Subject: Nepenthes Pests Hello Doug and all, I have noticed several species of Nepenthes tend to be prone to attack by Thrips. If the underside of the leaves have brown areas, and the sap is red or dark in color, look with a hand lens or magnifying glass for very small "," size insects. Very few of these insects, over time, can do quite a lot of damage, and are hard to see, their damage sometimes being mistaken for fungus problems. Their life-cycle takes them underground, so a systemic insecticide, like "Orthene" should be used, following the labels instructions for Thrips. As for Heliamphora, Scale insects can do a lot of harm, even in very low numbers. I have never applied insecticide to mine, but hand removal of visible individuals ASAP is recomended. I'm sure others have had experience with spraying this genera more than I have. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, Fl. USA I have a few minor pest problems on my CP's that I need some help solving. > I have scale on a few of my Heliamphora. I also have some sap drops on some > of my nepenthes. I don't know what is causing this but assume it is an > insect. I also noticed some "pimples" on the leaves if my N. veitchii. > There appears to be an egg on the underside of the leaf. I don't know if > this is related to the leaking sap problem. I would prefer less toxic > solutions but at the same time want to eliminate these unwanted critters. > Thanks for the help. > Doug Barrett ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:10:29 -0500 Subject: Collection numbers Hello, Steven Stewart again. I agree with Fernando, (not that I'm an authority, or it matters), but I also wonder if giving the botanist credit after a species name might help insure correct identification of material. This information seems pointless to many, but I have put out a great deal of money in the distant past, for misidentified plant species. If an individual has looked up a plant name in a reputable source, (such as the great work done in the ICPS database) this information should be easy to add, and would help end much confusion over which plant is which. I would think this information would be more easy to add than collection numbers, since in the hobby, as well as the science, it could be consistently applied. Then, if an individual is looking for a specific collection type, this information could be added. As Fernando has pointed out most CPer's don't care, until money has been spent for something other than was intended. IMHO Take care, Steven Stewart To all, > > > Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection > numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. > How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the > label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of > taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't > bother looking it up. Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, > I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here and there or > appear completely siteless after a while. Furthermore (and I've seen this > happen several times), what germinates is sometimes not what was supposed to > have germinated (some contaminant seed from a nearby pot or mixed with the > original seeds) but is assumed by the less experient grower to be that > species and is soon being traded around by the wrong name. Remember > D.montana? I'm sure there are lots of people still growing spatulata > thinking it's montana. Not to mention all those rosetted African species, > most of which always turn out to be aliciae after a few months. I'm sure we > can all think of such examples for Drosera, Neps, Pings or Utrics. So on the > one hand I think that collection numbers would be quickly forgotten or mixed > up. But then again, numbers are easier to remember than Grao Mogol, > Kununurra, or Baine's Kloof (just to give 3 examples)... > > > Best Wishes to all, > > Fernando Rivadavia > Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:36:26 -0500 Subject: RE: Collection numbers Maybe the ICPS journal could help us out by writing periodic articles about id'ing species correctly. Since it takes a taxonomist to understand a taxonomist it would be helpful if the articles were written for a lay understanding with lots of drawings and pictures. David Atlanta ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:08:14 -0500 Subject: Re: collection numbers > Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection > numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. Dear Fernando and List, I don't think it's that they don't care, per se, but rather it's arrogance. You cannot tell anyone anything without out them getting upset! I deal with people like this day in, day out. I don't know if it's just New Jersey, or the whole country (USA), but people are really stuck on themselves anymore. CP'ers tend to be the best people (as a group) that I know, and most are indeed interested in details. It's just that our culture does not seem to value knowledge like it did in the past. Acting like you know is more important than knowing... Everything is cut and paste, what's is built from scratch anymore? God forbid if you tell someone you don't know something though, it's like you're supposed to be arrogant and if you are not some will feel you're weak. God forbid if you actually had to take the time to open up a book and read it for knowledge instead of for titillation. I do as some other's on the list. If I don't know what a plant is, I don't trade or sell it. Of course, in the begining I didn't realize how much there was to learn! I made some mistakes and traded mislabled plants. Hopefully, I have gotten most everything straightened out by now ;) I do have a plant that is either _D. burmannii_ or _D. sessilifolia_, but I don't know how to tell them apart. Jan mentions that the location data is important. Well, this plant came up in a pot of Sarracenia and I have not grown either species for a couple years. Yet, it just popped up in this pot which was not even close to where I had been growing either species. I don't know how it got there, but now what do I call it if someone wants some seed: D. burmannii/sessilifolia? Dave Evans ################### From: john green Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:27:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers I had intended to cut and paste from an e-mail but accidentally deleted it, so here goes: Fernando said that most CPers are lazy and don't care about keeping collection numbers. Dave Evans responded that he felt it was arrogance, that people in general feel learning is beneath them. Actually, I'd like to propose that it is ignorance. This is the first time I've ever heard of a numbering system for plants. I don't grow orchids and I don't grow cacti, or anything else for that matter except garden plants. And my CPs. I thought you just tried to keep accurate location information and that was the best way to identify specific plants, and I only learned that by ordering seeds from Carl Mazur and Phil Wilson. Heck, that seems a lot easier and more descriptive than some impersonal numbering system. Honestly, this whole discussion sounds like a bunch of botanists and biologists whining about amateurs ruining the hobby. Well, for most of us that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other words - I do it for FUN. Yes, I try to keep location information on my plants (see my website), and I used to try to keep track of who I got a plant from until my collection got a bit large (I can still probably tell you who most of them came from, though). But I think a numbering system would be intimidating to those who are just getting into the hobby (how many kids do you know out there buying orchids and cacti?). It would also make it harder to acquire new plants by trading, because some people won't trade with you if your plant isn't numbered and registered with the appropriate authorities. If you want a numbering system, you people who understand those things have to initiate it, but I think it will de-personalize the hobby. Personally, I find names like 'Tarnok' and 'Lochness' or "Liberty Co., Florida" much more appealing than a number (as if I needed one more number to keep track of!). If I've offended anyone I apologize, and if you feel the need to blast me for it, please send replies to my work address where I'll actually look at them (john.green@ascensus.com) - maybe. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:32:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collection numbers Cool discussion! > on the label or seed packet is correct. Personally I tend to assume the > opposite these days. Until I can positively ID the plant it has a > question mark by it and will not be traded. This applies to both > Utricularia and Drosera. I tend to agree with Phil on this. Anything that comes into my collection gets a "supposedly" stuck in on the label until I can ID it. I don't trade Utricularia or Genlisea to other people until it flowers and I have a chance to ID it. ID'ing rosetted sundews in cultivation, now that is a subject to drive anyone batty. > Maybe the ICPS journal could help us out by writing periodic articles about > id'ing species correctly. Since it takes a taxonomist to understand a > taxonomist it would be helpful if the articles were written for a lay > understanding with lots of drawings and pictures. Indeed. But since it seems that the editors of CPN are a little busy at the moment, perhaps some one else is willing to volunteer for this position? Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "Steve Klitzing" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:56:57 -0800 Subject: Neem Oil on Nepenthes, and skyrocketing utility prices in CA Hi: I had a problem with scale and mealybugs attacking my Nepenthes and orchids. So, I put together a mild dose of Neem Oil, mixed with a little dishwashing soap, and a lot of water, and sprayed it on the Nepenthes and orchids. Two weeks later, the Nepenthes are doing just fine. They did not die. They did not even show any signs of problems. Whatever Neem oil is, it either killed or drove away all the pests. And, my staghorn ferns and orchids survived the application, too. The only drawback is that Neem oil is rather pungent, and the smell can last a few days, but it does go away. As for the skyrocketing utility prices here in California, heating my greenhouse is making things expensive, particularly where I live, which has an average of 33-35 degrees F. at night during the winter months. So, I'm buying a 250-foot roll of bubble wrap, cost $80, to line the inside of my glass greenhouse. I expect this will drastically reduce heating costs. And, when the weather warms up in April, I can store the bubble wrap for next year. Perhaps I should have bought twin-wall polycarbonate instead of glass, however, all plastics wear out in a few short years due to UV, and I would have to fork out another $3000 to replace it. At this point, twin wall makes no sense. There was a rose grower interviewed on TV who operates north of the S.F. Bay Area. Last year his December heating bill was $29,000 for all his greenhouses. This year it's $300,000. The commercial growers would be smart to relocate their operations near geo-thermal areas, because heating would then be free. I was in Rotorua, New Zealand, in late 1999, and discovered that the whole city has free heat. Residents drill a hole 80 feet down and put in a heat exchanger. Nobody freezes in the winter, and nobody pays for heat. Of course, living on a dormant volcanic caldera can have its hazards. The Icelanders do the same thing and they actually grow their own bananas in greenhouses heated by geothermal. So, if you can locate to an area near, or containing, warm or hot springs, you can do this as well. Greenhouse fans generally don't use a lot of power, and mine pulls about .26 amps, which is fine even on a hot day. PG&E has been scaring the public lately, talking about blackouts and the like, claiming that there is not enough power to go around. This sounds suspiciously like the gas crisis of 1973, when the oil companies claimed they had no oil. When the price of oil skyrocketed, magically, there was plenty of gasoline. So, right now, the partners in this theatre act appear to be holding up a boogey-man doll and shaking it in front of Californians. And, it's too bad, because if they are allowed to frighten us into submission, there are a lot of lower income Californians who cannot afford the rate increases. And what will they do? As for our government, well, like government anywhere, we have career politicians who only do what's necessary to appease their constituency, and then return to business as usual. Sometimes, I just get tired of hearing the latest big lie. If you don't hear from me soon, it's because California has been cast into eternal darkness - oh no! What will we do without the ability to watch Temptation Island and Survivor? ---Steve Klitzing _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:06:30 -0500 Subject: RE: Collection numbers >Indeed. But since it seems that the editors of CPN are a little busy at >the moment, perhaps some one else is willing to volunteer for this >position? Fernando, I think I read your name above . The challenge will be to write at my educational level David ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:38:20 -0800 Subject: Emergency: Petiolaris Sean Attention Listees, Petiolaris Sean, asked me to inform you all that he is experiancing computer problems and is unable to reply to his many many e-mail messages. Please be patient and he will get back to you. Apparently while attempting to improve the efficiency of his computer he accidentally deleted vital program files. This concludes our test of the emergency broadcast system. If this had been an actual emergency, you would be in big trouble right now:-) Crazy Ivan ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:40:53 EST Subject: Re: Emergency: Petiolaris Sean Crazy Ivan, Thanks for clearing the air on Petiolaris Sean's woes. The Nebraska carnivorous plant contingent(maybe three of us) was starting to get offended and we were thinking about declaring war on the Californians, but that would not be a fair war, seeing how the odds would be a hundred to one, or so. You don't have enough Californians...:) Hope everyone is enjoying the year 2001, so far. "Orible Joe" Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: John Phillips Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:47:47 -0800 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers I agree that keeping accurate records of one's plants is important, but I believe it is best to ENCOURAGE newbies and not-so-newbies to keep accurate records of their plants origins, etc. Insulting people will not be taken well. Remember, there are CP'ers lurking on this list who will take the strong language of more "experienced" CP'ers the wrong way, and they will be discouraged from participating in the CP community. Sometimes I get private e-mail from these list lurkers who have a question, but were to afraid to ask the list for fear of being called arrogant, ignorant and otherwise "flamed". Like honey vs. vinegar, mentoring will improve our community more than...well you know... I hope I have not insulted anyone. ################### From: "Adao Pereira" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:51:53 -0000 Subject: Looking for specific CPN article and others Hello again! Yet doing my work about Byblis, I came across some references of articles which would be very helpful. So please if anyone has one of the following articles, email me, I would be very grateful: - De Buhr (??), L.E., (1975), Observations on Byblis gigantea in Western Australia. CPN 4:60-61 - Bruce A.N. (1905), On the glands of Byblis gigantea Lindl. Notes from the Loyd Botanical Society; Edinbourgh, 16:9-14 The following articles about Genlisea would be helpful too: - Majnussen (??) B.C. (1982), An Introduction to Genlisea, CPN 11:13-15 - Fromm-Trista (??) (1989), Genliseas Americanas. Sellowia 36:55-62 I would thank very much anyone who could arrange me copies of these articles. Thanks for your attention! Miguel ################### From: JWi5770869@cos.agilent.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:14:50 EST Subject: Drooling Sarrs In a message dated 11/01/01 09:12:58 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > The other day I was looking at my S. leuco 'Tarnok' and noticed an unusually > large amount of sticky secretions, both at the top opening and around the > lower 2 or 3 inches of the pitchers. I've seen this before with my other > Sarrs, but usually it's most heavy around the opening with little on the > rest of the pitcher (with the possible exception of the edge of the ala or > wing). I looked all over the plant and could see no signs of scale or any > other insect pests. There are a few other Sarrs nearby (different species) > but none of them are exhibiting this excess. The stuff is practically > running in drops down the pitchers! Is this normal for this species or do I John, I have a Sarr x rehderi (spelling?) that exibits the same behaviour. The only trouble I've found with Sarrs that do this is you can end up with sooty mould growing on the nectar, which looks awful. If its bothering you, wipe its mouth as you would a drooling child All the best John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:24:20 EST Subject: D. capensis "alba" Hi All, Here is a relatively mundane question about something I am a little fuzzy on: Is D. capensis"alba" referring to a white- flowered form(seems like it should) or is it referring to a all green plant? I have heard both used as descriptions. What I supposedly have is all-green and I have never had it flower. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "R B" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:07:24 -0800 Subject: Reminder: Los Angeles CPS meeting is tomorrow! >From Ivan Snyder: The next meeting of the Los Angeles Carnivorous Plant Society will be Saturday, January 13 at the Alhambra Chamber of Commerce, 104 S. First Street. Doors open at 12, meeting starts at 1:00 pm. Admission: $2.00 DIRECTIONS Driving east on the 10 freeway exit Garfield and go north about one mile.Turn left on Main, one block to First Street, then left again another block. Free parking. PROGRAM Display and sales table. Bring in your own plants for show, sale or trade, and meet other local growers to learn growing techniques. All genera represented (hopefully). Free refreshments available. PRESENTATION Ed Read will give a slide show from his visit to Mexico and tell about Mexican Pinquicula. Dick Trans will demonstrate his capillary mat system for growing Cephalotus. See you there. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Andrew Broome Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:13:01 +1300 Subject: RE: collection numbers Fernando said... > I think collection numbers is a great idea... I came to the CP hobby via the killifish hobby (in which I'm still active) and still can't get over the difference in approach that people from the two groups have. With the serious killifish keeper, location names and collection data are generally considered to be very important and with major efforts being taken to keep even different collections of the same species apart from each other. The whole concept of hybrids is abhorrent to most, and fish without collection data are all considered 'Aquarium Strains'. Generally the point is to keep the fish as close as possible as to what they were like when first collected. > Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, > I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here Of course, this happens with killies as well and while it's a shame I still feel it's important to do your best to keep track of information about a species and to try and verify it when possible. Luckily with killies there are several very keen people who have been assigning collection codes since the '80s and this has become more common during the '90s as a more scientific approach to collecting and the information that can be gained from it has been adopted. There is even a book that lists all the known collections and who made them and exactly where etc. With certain groups there are also keen individuals who will jump up and correct people who (accidentily or otherwise) try and distribute fish with incorrect labels. Brian Watters and the Nothobranchius genus springs to mind. This does ruffle a few feathers from time to time with people who don't like to be corrected but that's a small price to pay, IMHO. Anyay, as I said, it's just interesting (to me) to note the differences in approach. Certainly with my CPs I record any location information I get and it's passed on with the plant if I propagate it. Just my thoughts... Andrew@home. *NZKA 137, NAKA 5, AKA 07212, PNAS, NZCPS ... * Degeneracy can be fun, but it's hard to keep up * as a serious lifetime occupation. * Robert M. Pirsig (ZatAoMM) *Killies: Ducatis: Reptiles & Amphibians: Carnivorous Plants: ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:34:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers Exactly John, ..... and how accurate is the information. For instance I can easily go to Lowrie's seed list and find location mistakes for cp from the SE USA. I'm not just talking about miss-spelling's either. But not to insult or flame, Mr. Lowrie must go on information sent him. I bring his name up as he is well respected within the cp community. Just as I may label the incorrect origin of a Nepenethes that comes in miss-identified. I really am not that knowledgeable about geographic locations on Borneo, or for that matter most places, some I have been too. :-) As for cactus..... wow what a mess. Very close to total confusion with numbering. The nomenclature with succulents provides long term job stability for Botanist. Take the Genus Notocactus, now includes Parodia next year maybe not. Some collections use one, either, or both names. Warming up finally, ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida USA ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:50 PM > > I agree that keeping accurate records of one's plants is important, > but I believe it is best to ENCOURAGE newbies and not-so-newbies to keep > accurate records of their plants origins, etc. Insulting people will not > be taken well. Remember, there are CP'ers lurking on this list who will > take the strong language of more "experienced" CP'ers the wrong way, and > they will be discouraged from participating in the CP community. Sometimes > I get private e-mail from these list lurkers who have a question, but were > to afraid to ask the list for fear of being called arrogant, ignorant and > otherwise "flamed". > Like honey vs. vinegar, mentoring will improve our community more > than...well you know... > I hope I have not insulted anyone. > > ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:23:19 -0600 Subject: Re: collection numbers Andrew, I saw your reference to killifish on the CP list. I've kept tropicals and have goldfish in pools. Tell me about killies. How can I get some that are native to zone 7 (Arkansas). Thanks, Wayne Morrow ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 07:35:21 +1100 Subject: Re: D. capensis "alba" Joe, and others, My D. capensis 'alba' is both all-green and white flowered. Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 ph: (03) 62262624 ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:32:18 +1100 Subject: Borneo Hi all As some of you know, I'm travelling to Borneo in June for several weeks. I have accumulated a fair amount of info on the place but.... If anyone out there has been or has any interesting info on where to go or what to see, could they please point me in the right direction. I am going to Kuching, Bako N.P.,Gunung Mulu N.P., Niah N.P., M.T Kinabalu (naturally), and Sandakan. I'm after specific information eg. 20 paces north, 50 paces east N. northiana!! Thanks Greg ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:33:14 -0500 Subject: Re: D. capensis "alba" Dear Joe, > Here is a relatively mundane question about something I am a little fuzzy on: Is D. capensis"alba" referring to a white- flowered form(seems like it should) or is it referring to a all green plant? I have heard both used as descriptions. What I supposedly have is all-green and I have never had it flower. Umm, so far all the "alba" plants I have seen are really all-green. I think "alba" is either a misused latin term or someone though that all-green plants are albinos and used "alba" to indicate so. Well, they are diffenitely not albinos as if they were they would not have any green and in turn die. Some place more importantance on color and feel that alba should be part of the official name, I guess it's sort of a political statement in this case. Yes, an "all-green" plant will have white flowers, since they can't make other pigments, unless the flowers happen to be green also. I don't know of any CP's with green flowers though. If the flowers are some color other than normal, or there is no normal color (like D. cistiflora), but the plant itself has normal color just note, "red flower", "white flower", "cream fl." or ect. Dave Evans ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 05:13:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers Dear John and List, > Fernando said that most CP'ers are lazy and don't care about keeping > collection numbers. Dave Evans responded that he felt it was arrogance, > that people in general feel learning is beneath them. Actually, I'd like to > propose that it is ignorance. Well, I would like to clarify: I don't think CP'ers tend to be lazy and arrogant, as the subject line might indicate. I think people in general have become so, rather like it's popular attitude to have. I feel this is starting hamper society, but enough of that (I am just glad I don't have to interveiw people for positions). Truly as you mention, laziness and arrogance are not going to stop CP'ers from using a numbering system anyway (sorry I got side tracked from the numbering system last time), rather not knowing how to use one would! I have not used a number system and don't know the best way to go about building one either. I would say, though, that many types of CP's don't really need to be numbered for ease of tracking, unless you want to do a study of distribution patterns of captive plants! (which would be a massive undertaking, and I doubt you'd be able to do a decent census anyway) For example: _Cephalotus follicularis_ is just that, you're not gonna mistake it for another species. Even the various "giant" clones don't seem much of any different. Just better cultivated and allowed to grow to their potential. Would a numbering system that includes location data make it easier to produce seed? For this species, hardly anyone bothers with producing seed when the cuttings work so much faster... So I don't think there is much practical use in that case, but on the other hand we have tuberous Drosera that need to be of separate stock in order to produce seed (what exceptions are there besides for _D. auriculata_ and _D. peltata_?). If we want to be able to produce seed of most of these species, we would need a system that keeps track of clones and successive generations to keep from inbreeding. Is a location numbering system worth using for the species that are not self-fertile? After all, one generation in and you will not have plants from those locations anymore... Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette thingies (Drosera) that no one seems to be able to keep track of, a numbering system would be very beneficial just for keeping track of the species. This system would be linear, with the numbers corresponding the location. Since all of these are self-pollinating, or at least self-fertile, the same number can follow down the generations from parent to the seed. It's sound like the easiest (laziest? Devil's advocate here) way to go for these. Also, I doubt this system would be the slightest bit intimidating to beginners. Rather the opposite. It would help them to feel more connected and capable. After all, how else would we deal with this hypothetical: _D. montana tomentosa_ was collected at site AX, however, the seed that was collected included another very similar but different plant. The person who collected the seed didn't even realize there was another species present since the lighting was poor as night was coming on. Seed is distributed and some people are growing what they think is D. montana tomentosa and it looks pretty close anyway, but it's really not. The seed gets spread under the wrong name, some people catch it, many don't and there's no way to ever hope of straightening it out. Had there been a resource (a web page, of course) for such a numbering system/location data database and the original collector had registered and distributed the seed under the name "D. montana tomentosa XYZ", anyone interested could follow this trail. Once the more experienced growers realize that D. montana tomentosa XYZ is really two plants and what the other species is and how they differ, the data base could be undated with this info. Anyone, even the lay-growers, that are interested in accuracy would be able to follow this lead. Since it cuts out much guess work and points them right to the proper diagnosis, I think it would help move them toward an appreciation of the finer points of CP taxonomy. How would new locations be added, and would they need to be verified in some way? Dave Evans ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:18:25 +1100 Subject: Collection Data and Borneo A very emotional subject for all! I'd like to add my thoughts without upsetting anyone. I have roughly 200 different species and hybrid CPs. From what I can gather,of these 200, 100 should have a ? next to them and by rights I should destroy any seed or spare plants as I am unable to gather enough information to properly identify them. I'm an Electrican, just a humble tradesman with a passion for C.P.s. I have purchased seed and plants from most well known growers and societies. I keep as much information as I receive with those purchases and like to think that I can trust these people to have sold me the "right thing". I do not sell anything that I am not confident is the right thing but as I said without the right information, I must believe what I've bought is right. An example: Every D. coccicaulis I have seen in Australia looks the same but I was recently told by an educated man (Hi Robert) that it appears that these are all in fact D. venusta or at least that's what they call them in the U.S.A. I've sold hundreds of these things! Sorry! At least if collections were numbered and the numbers weren't lost as plants were distributed, we would be able to re-name plants as the information became available and eventually weed out those that were not correctly labeled. If nothing else, a numbering system would prop up the C.P. market,and send those who have to have it all (like me) broke buying them. I hope some of that made sence to those who chose to read it. Thanks Greg While I'm here, I forgot to ask with yesturday's Borneo question that I was interested in seeing Drosera and Utrics when I get there. ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:31:22 -0000 Subject: Numbering of plants. Time to rejoin the discussion I started. It's always hard to see things revive after Christmas but it seems this topic did it! I'm surprised by good volume of positive response so far. First, I have to say John Phillips made a good point. It can be easy to offend people by calling them names. On this occassion it was me. But I did it to stimulate a discussion - which seems to have worked. No-one was personally attacked and those who might have responded worst have actually just participated. And I only asked a question. Still, I acknowledge John's point, politely made. Some people have started to interpret my point, and the responses to it, in way that I didn't intend. In the main, this relates to personally attaching numbers to plants in a collection, with fears, concerns arising. Before I comment, let me start by adding a few technical terms. I won't introduce many. And they are very easy to get used to and use, if anyone wants to. (The taxonomists can correct me if I describe anything wrongly, though I hope not to expand too much as this will add complexity!) There are two very important "numbers" that can and should be attached to a plant in a collection. Not everyone will want to do this, but some will especially if they understand why it's useful. The first number is called an Accession Number. It need not be a number, it can contain any characters that can be typed or written. However, it's usual to use letters, numbers and special characters such as slash and hyphen, generally all as available on a normal (QWERTY) typewriter or PC keyboard. I won't explain (now) the different ways these Accession Numbers can be constructed (historically some were very complex) but suffice to say that it shouldn't matter (and if you start now, just stick to a simple sequence. The easiest model or template for using Accession Numbers is to use the very easy and obvious sequence, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. The other "number" important to collections is a field collection number or Collector's Number. This is, as for accession numbers, another group of characters so it need not be a number literally. Again, 1,2,3,4, etc. is the easiest to use. There is a third, less common, "number" which is one assigned to each different field trip. Often this is just absorbed into the Collector's Number but it can be a separate value (so if starting numbering now, you can ignore Field Trip numbers altogether, though advanced users may want to use them). So, now I've attached names to the "numbers", when are they used? Let's start with the one that is theoretically used first. This is the "Collector's Number". People who actually go out looking for plants in the wild are those who should (or could) use these. If a person on a field trip finds a plant, it is normal and good scientific practice to attach a unique "Collector's Number" to each specimen found. The collection number is unique to the person using it as that person has no way of knowing what collection numbers are being used by anyone else in the world. It is possible that the collector's number is assigned to a plant on behalf of the collector but by someone else. However, it's done when or soon after (hopefully) the plant is collected from the wild and theoretically before the specimen is positively identified. Accesion Numbers are assigned by anyone (and ideally everyone) who has a collection of plants. Clearly, if you grow 2 cacti and a poinsietta (only at Christmas), you won't use Accessions Numbers. But if you want to collect lots of plants and f you hope to know or label (correctly) what they are, then Accession Numbers are a good idea. Assigning them couldn't be simpler. Simply choose a plant in your collection and give it your choice of an "Axccession Number". "1" is a very good choice but you could be more exotic and mix letters, numbers, dates, etc. But why add complications, just start with "1". Then choose another plant, it makes no difference which, and give it a unique "Accession Number" that you haven't already used. If you started with "1", "2" would be a sensible and obvious choice. If you use exotic numbering systems, remebering what comes next may be difficult. Obviously you just keep going - 3, 4, 5, etc. OK. So I hope I've demonstrated that assigning Accession and Collector's Numbers is really trivial. Even if your field trip is into the field outside your back garden (for those living in the Florida Panhandle, Belize, Western Australia or other CP rich areas), you still attach the numbers. Field Trips do not have to be formal, planned or to anywhere in partticular. Next, why use these numbers at all? I'll start with Accession Numbers. We all know what a pain CP identification can be. Some of those red rosetty things (er, Drosera), are damned similar! And it would be stupid to think that all CP'ers will spend hours identifying each plant in their collection - most will use the name the plant arrived with and trust it is correct, even though we know that a massive number of plants are labelled incorrectly! But, let us say that we all suddenly sarted using numbers. And let me assume I give five of you the same Pinguicula (with Accession Number 1234) . Now you can assign it your own accession number (each of you will give it a different one). Now, let's assume I suddenly decide my Pinguicula is in fact wrongly named. I may not know who has the plant but I can publish my plant list. Against plant Accession Number 1234 I can give the correct name (and perhaps show that this has changed). Now anyone who has a plant that originated from me with Accession Number 1234 can rename their plant to the correct name. This is just one use. But it shows that Accession Numbers allow traceability - you can follow a plant from its current owner back to the source. A second use, which should appeal to many of us, is long term. Suppose a plant dies out in the wild. Many of us would like to think we could try to repopulate the wild. many discussions have already pointed outv that to try this, you must use as much plant material as possible to ensure genetic variety is present. But how can you be sure you are planting different plants rather than clones? The answer is by tracing a plant's origin using Accession Numbers. This happened with the "Chocolate Plant" Cosmos atrosanguineus, which did become extinct in the wild. A world-wide request was made for contact by gardeners who grew this plant. Each that responded was asked to donate material. All materiual donated was genetically tested. And each donation that was of a different genetic variety was added to the group of plants that were planted back in the wild. Over 90% of plants tested actually came from a single clone! However, if all the gardeners had used Accession Numbers, testing may have been unnecessary, saving a lot money. Collector's numbers also play a part in the smae way. The only real difference is that a Colector's Number is really a special Accession Number that identifies the wild origin of a plant. But it's critical this is assigned and recorded. First, in the previous example (Cosmos), suppose I trace two plants back to two orignal commercial nurseries. Are they different plants? I don't know. Probably, but not for sure. Maybe the nurseries both got their plants from the same collector after a field trip. Maybe one got plants from the other nursery and didn't record it. Accession Numbers are assined by each grower so it only takes one person to forget to record the accession number, r to forget to record the number assigned by the person they got their plant from, and traceability ends! But a Collector's Number is assigned to a plant specimen and should remain with it and all it's clones (or with seed and all their progeny). So even if Accession Numbers are not used, if we all recorded Collector's Numbers for every plant we had, we could trace every single plant we had back to when it was first collected from the wild. Which means that when a new plant (say P. species nova, Collector's Number 9876) is actually named, we can all update our records so that the plant is anamed correctly. Collector's Numbers are how I started this listserver topic. I would like to think that all wild collected plants could now be given collector's numbers when collected. I would like to think that those collectors would distribute their plants complete with Cllector's Numbers. And I would like to think they would ask that those they distribute plants to are asked to maintain the Collector Number so that when they too distribute the plant, it is accompanied by it's Collector's Number. Obviously this will not affect plants already in cultivation. But it will affect new plants that some of us are lucky enough to have the chance to introduce. And even though you might still wonder if you really want to be bothered, I thnk most of you will. Aftter all, when you spend your money on a plant, wouldn't you like to know it really is what the label says it is? Well Collector's Numbers areyour insurance. Of course unscrupulous people could invent bogus numbers, but it's traceable and I've never heard of it happening in the cactus or Orchid world, where numbering is common. So if a plant has an asigned Collector's Number that is published with it in a seed or plant catalogue or in a private list, you can place some trust in the name as the plant records have clearly been maintained well. This has only been a simple introduction (it's long enough already!). There is more that can be said but that would, I think, be overkill at this time. But there no reason why others can't add more in separate emails. So, how about we have a go at using Collector's Numbers and Accession Numbers? How about we ask plant nurseries (the CP specialist nurseries) to supply colletor's and accession number details with each plant we buy from them? How about asking our frinds for these numbers when we exchange plants (or even if they offer to give us plants)? We'll be doing ourselves, and each other, a favour! How about field trip description being published in CPN (and the other journals) not just with the names of plants seen, but with the Collector's Numbers of specimens taken for introduction into cultivation (so we know hat to ask for or to look for in the catalogues)? It's up to you. It's a decision each person can make for themselves. It's a little more work (not much), but it adds enormous value to a collection from scientific and conservation perspectives. And the financial value of properly recorded plants is also higher!!! It's just an idea. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:57:55 -0200 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers John and all, > Fernando said that most CPers are lazy and don't care about keeping > collection numbers. Looking back at what I wrote, I don't see the word "lazy" anywhere, so this is your interpretation here John. Read the paragraph below again please: "...the truth is that most CPers don't care. How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't bother looking it up." Basically, I'm agreeing with what you wrote: > Actually, I'd like to propose that it is ignorance. .... > Honestly, this whole discussion sounds like a bunch of botanists and > biologists whining about amateurs ruining the hobby. Well, for most of us > that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid > because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other words > - I do it for FUN. That's exactly it, many CPers couldn't give a hoot about location info because they're in it for fun. And we can't tell them they're wrong and that they should do it "our" way. Maybe that's the difference between the CP hobby and the orchid / cacti hobbies. Excuse my partiality here, but CPs are WAY more fun to cultivate than orchids, cacti, bromeliads, etc., maybe attracting the younger crowd and the more informal hobbiest type. Orchids and cacti (because they're boring compared to CPs! :):) ) seem to attract more professional/ I-want-the-most-perfect-plant types. And killifish are probably not as easy to "grow" either, attracting the same type of people. So I am not being critical towards the "plain" hobbiests when I say they don't give a damn about taxonomy. I'm just stating a fact, to which they have all the right in the world to do as they like. > But I think a numbering system would be > intimidating to those who are just getting into the hobby (how many kids do > you know out there buying orchids and cacti?). It would also make it harder > to acquire new plants by trading, because some people won't trade with you > if your plant isn't numbered and registered with the appropriate > authorities. If you want a numbering system, you people who understand > those things have to initiate it, but I think it will de-personalize the > hobby. Personally, I find names like 'Tarnok' and 'Lochness' or "Liberty > Co., Florida" much more appealing than a number (as if I needed one more > number to keep track of!). Could be true, but then again maybe the cacti, orchid, and killifish people said the same thing when it was originally proposed. On the one hand, I think it'll mostly add to the confusion, that we should stick to location names and whoever wants to can follow it. BUT... only in the past few weeks I have communicated with a few CPers on the listserv about plants that they grew from seeds possibly collected by me. In some cases it's easy to know if they were really my collections, but some not. A collection number would've cleared that up immediately. All the best, Fernando Rivadavia Sao paulo, Brazil ################### From: John Brittnacher Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:58:59 -0800 Subject: New seeds in ICPS seed bank Sean Samia donated some rare seeds to the ICPS seed bank: Byblis liniflora, Drosera ordensis, Drosera paradoxa x darbyensis, and Roridula gorgonias. Quantities are VERY limited. Sean says Drosera paradoxa x darbyensis won't germinate without GA3 treatment. Please don't ask for the seeds if you can't get any GA3. I don't have any and don't know where you can get it. The seeds are listed at http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/seeds.cgi I will not be able to process any seed bank orders until 27 January. Orders will be processed by postmark date with orders mailed before 18 January processed at random. So there is no point to express mail your order or send me e-mail about it. The only exception is for people who have credit with the seed bank for donating seeds. You may send your order via e-mail and it will be processed before mail orders. If you want special treatment next time, send me seeds the seed bank needs. For more info check out the seed bank FAQ page http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/seedFAQ.htm Remember, seed bank sales are for members only. Don't bother asking for multiple packets of any variety unless I have 40 or more packets of it, I'll either substitute something else or return your money. ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:11:48 -0600 Subject: Niagra Carnivores Has Niagra moved their web site? Does anyone have the seed codes they use? Thanks Wayne ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:34:03 -0000 Subject: More Re: Collection numbers First, let me repeat so that poor old Fernando doesn't end up ruing the day he wrote on this topic - IT WAS ME!!! I started this discussion! I asked if CPers were lazy! Blame me, not Fernando! OK. Have I made my point? Is anything unclear? Hope not! :-) Meanwhile.... > I would say, though, that many types of CP's don't really need to be >numbered for ease of tracking, unless you want to do a study of distribution >patterns of captive plants! (which would be a massive undertaking, and I >doubt you'd be able to do a decent census anyway) For example: _Cephalotus >follicularis_ is just that, you're not gonna mistake it for another species. I disagree. While there may never be more than one taxon (e.g. a single species, no wild variants as subspecies, varieties, etc.), there are separate populations witrh presumably different genetic content. We do not know if this plant may become threatened in the wild but we do need to know which plants originate from different locations to preserve the knowledge of different genetic groups. This would even be importnt to breeders hoping to generate cultivars, which often depend on introducing vigour by mixing as much genetic variance as possible from the correct choice of parent plants. >Even the various "giant" clones don't seem much of any different. Just >better cultivated and allowed to grow to their potential. Would a numbering >system that includes location data make it easier to produce seed? For this >species, hardly anyone bothers with producing seed when the cuttings work so >much faster... Which is why we have so few plants that are "different". I'm no hampion of cultivars, I colect species, but cultivar lovers would like new forms of Cephalotus, I assume. > Is a location numbering system worth using for the species that are not >self-fertile? After all, one generation in and you will not have plants >from those locations anymore... Yes. Because plants can be produced asexually and then are identical to the parents (clones thereof), so the collection data is perfectly applicable. > Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette >thingies (Drosera) ... Ah, a like minded soul :-) that no one seems to be able to keep track of, a >numbering system would be very beneficial just for keeping track of the >species. This system would be linear, with the numbers corresponding the >location. No. That would require central co-ordination. It is only necessary for a collector to maintain his or her system and for each collector to have their own system. I doubt this system would be the slightest bit >intimidating to beginners. Rather the opposite. It would help them to feel >more connected and capable. It certainly isn't difficult. If you can write a name on a label, for beginners the "number" would simply be an extension of the name, another part of the label. > After all, how else would we deal with this hypothetical: _D. montana >tomentosa_ was collected at site AX, however, the seed that was collected >included another very similar but different plant. The person who collected >the seed didn't even realize there was another species present since the >lighting was poor as night was coming on. Seed is distributed and some >people are growing what they think is D. montana tomentosa and it looks >pretty close anyway, but it's really not. The seed gets spread under the >wrong name, some people catch it, many don't and there's no way to ever hope >of straightening it out. Had there been a resource (a web page, of course) >for such a numbering system/location data database and the original >collector had registered and distributed the seed under the name "D. montana >tomentosa XYZ", anyone interested could follow this trail. There is potentially such a thing already. Jan's excellent CP database already helps track previous names of a CP. I would assume that new species identified by a collection number might appear in such a database, under their correct name, with a reference to the original and the collection number. If not, a parallel similar database is perfectly feasible. > How would new locations be added, and would they need to be verified >in some way? No need. As I said, you don't want central coordination because noone will guarantee its maintenance. As I've already said, t isn't necessary. >At least if collections were numbered and the numbers weren't lost as plants >were distributed, we would be able to re-name plants as the information >became available and eventually weed out those that were not correctly >labeled. Exactly! >If nothing else, a numbering system would prop up the C.P. market,and send >those who have to have it all (like me) broke buying them. Yes, it does help CP sales as the avid collectors who strive to have everything in their list might feel obliged to buy plants that differ by collection number. But we already do this anyway as, in many cases, the collector's number would reference what curently get listed as place names. (However, place names are not collector's numbers and can never replace them.) > Looking back at what I [Fernando] wrote, I don't see the word > "lazy" anywhere, It was me - your old, or is it now ex friend Paul :-) !!!!!!! >"...the truth is that most CPers don't care. How often do we see people >growing things which are totally not what the label says. They simply >couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of taxonomy (which some of >us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't bother looking it up." True, but people may still keep data as part of the label without caring what it means. After all, people do have plants labelled Pinguicula moranensis alba (or Alba or "Alba") but there is no such thing, it's actually just plain P. moranensis. >> Honestly, this whole discussion sounds like a bunch of botanists and >> biologists whining about amateurs ruining the hobby. Well, for most of us >> that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid >> because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other >words >> - I do it for FUN. And if fun means not recording collector's numbers or accesion numbers, don't. You will not be alone, no- one will tell you off. It's your hobby and you can run it the way that suits you. But perhaps others will record useful data if they know how and why. It will not make them "better" people, and it won't make their plants more valuable to them than yos are to you. But it will make tproperly labelled plants more valuable generally and as long as you don't care, that isn't a problem. Please - I've gone out of my way not to criticise your comment here - it's sincere - there's no criticism intended for how you wish to manage your hobby. > That's exactly it, many CPers couldn't give a hoot about location >info because they're in it for fun. And we can't tell them they're wrong and >that they should do it "our" way. Maybe that's the difference between the CP >hobby and the orchid / cacti hobbies. Excuse my partiality here, but CPs are >WAY more fun to cultivate than orchids, cacti, bromeliads, etc., maybe >attracting the younger crowd and the more informal hobbiest type. A touch prejudiced perhaps? CPs are more fun if you like CP's. If you like orchids, you probably can't even spell CD's, oops - I mean, CP's! No-one is telling hobbyists that it's wrong to not record data. But, and I feel a big argument will result from this following statement, no-one who collects a plant from the wild should do so without recording the data. Casual collecting of wild plants is a threat to wild plants. People doing it generally remove lants that are already in cultivation. People who do it to capture a new species , a new variant or for other reputable scientific reasons need the data even if they do not yet realise it. >and cacti (because they're boring compared to CPs! :):) ) seem to attract >more professional/ I-want-the-most-perfect-plant types. Clearly there's no such thing. But it tends to be the amatures that strive for the longest fullest lists. Others tend to specialise so limiting the numbers of plants appropriate to their collection. >> But I think a numbering system would be >> intimidating to those who are just getting into the hobby (how many kids >do >> you know out there buying orchids and cacti?). Yes, kids could be put off if it isn't explained. But I've many years experience of working with kids. I find that they love to be challenged and that they are put off by rules when there is no logical explanation for the rule. Accession Numbering is not a rule, it's a good guideline that can be explained. >It would also make it harder >> to acquire new plants by trading, because some people won't trade with you >> if your plant isn't numbered and registered with the appropriate >> authorities. No, authorities are irrelevent - I'm not sugesting any involvement of an authority. But wait a minute, haven't you just made my point? If people won't exchange plants because they aren't numbered, isn't that saying that numbered plants would be more highly valued? I hink I owe you thanks for that remark! :-) > If you want a numbering system, you people who understand >> those things have to initiate it, but I think it will de-personalize the >> hobby. Personally, I find names like 'Tarnok' and 'Lochness' or "Liberty >> Co., Florida" much more appealing than a number (as if I needed one more >> number to keep track of!). So use those names - no problem. And despite what you say, I'd still be interested in plants with no number. You'd still be able to exchange and run your hobby your way with no criticism (or at least with none that was fair). >I think it'll mostly add to the confusion, that we should stick to >location names and whoever wants to can follow it. BUT... only in the past >few weeks I have communicated with a few CPers on the listserv about plants >that they grew from seeds possibly collected by me. In some cases it's easy >to know if they were really my collections, but some not. A collection >number would've cleared that up immediately. Thank you thank you thank you. I'm not trying to make a fun hobby boring. I'm trying to explain how a small amount of data that people can keep - ***if they want to*** can help all of us. OK. I'm not getting at anyone. Also, cut and paste can result in me answering a point but incorrectly pointing at the wrong author. I'm not concerned with who wrote a point - only with responding to the point made. It's also important to note that there are people out there who argue just to play Devil's Advocate (I'm often one of them). They argue to raise the discussion and see what is said - a reasonable approach that allows things to be aired and answered. So I'm using comments written as springboards to reply to, not to criticise the authors (whom I often know well and consider friends - unless they like Drosera)! It would be good to hear what some of those who consider themselves "young" or "amature" think. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: "R. E. Jones" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:51:06 -0000 Subject: D.gigantea asexual reproduction? Hi, I have a couple of D. gigantea which are doing fairly well but one of them has started producing small plants from the leaves! I noticed a few days ago that there were lots of "insects" on the leaves but failed to look at them properly. Today I examined them and each leaf has a small plant growing from the center of the lamina. They look as though they have small pygmy droseras growing there. Has anybody seen this before, is it common? I shall try and get some of them to grow independently but before I do has any body had experience of this before and if so, what happened? It is rather like if I put D. binata leaves in a bag of Sphagnum and they bud off at the ends. Dick http://www.angelfire.com/ab4/REJones/ ################### From: EdwardK674@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:09:06 EST Subject: Re: Accession Numbers In a message dated 1/14/01 4:22:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: << Next, why use these numbers at all? I'll start with Accession Numbers. We all know what a pain CP identification can be. Some of those red rosetty things (er, Drosera), are damned similar! And it would be stupid to think that all CP'ers will spend hours identifying each plant in their collection - most will use the name the plant arrived with and trust it is correct, even though we know that a massive number of plants are labelled >> Hi All, To make it a little easier I have a suggestion used by our Zoo. If you have a large collection of various cps it is easier to assign the numbers in tiers to allow for easier tracking. For example all fo your pings could be 100-199, the drosera could be 200-299, utrics are 300-399, etc. Of couse you can assign any numbers but this allows a little bit of easier cataloging and tracking. Ed ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:36:35 -0500 Subject: Collection Numbers Hello all, I enjoy all of this exchange of information on this subject, and am learning a great deal about how numbering plants is supposed to work. I have been ignorant and possibly caused some confusion in my distribution of plant material, unintentionally. I always try to be as accurate as possible, including all information known by me with all plants distributed, including the original source, if asked. I have attempted, with some success, to learn how to key plant specimens in Latin, German, and English. I have taken and assisted College level botany classes, and communicated with knowlegable collectors, Horticulturists, Botanists, and Taxonomists. I agree to disagree and understand the concepts of "clumpers" and "splitters". I do not understand the lack of interest in placing a botanists name after the bi-generic scientific name of plants. The reason I bring this up is because the _majority_ of people responding to my offer of _Nepenthes bicalcarata_ Hook. f. seed this fall, corrected my misspelling of the species name, because a very popular and informative book "The Savage Garden" by Peter D'Amato (hello Peter) has this plant named Nepenthes bicalcurata five times in it's text. This plant is so easy to distinguish and separate from any other, it is a trivial discrepency, except for the fact that I was corrected by two people in positions as Directors of Botanical Gardens! I use Peters book regularly, and tell all I know it is one of the best written on it's subject. Evidently I am not the only one! When will the popularity of this new name or synonym make it accepted as the "correct" spelling? Or is it already? It is easy to point fingers and find fault with others work, and in no way do I mean to insult Peter's work. I only wish to point out the importance of including as much information as possible, including common names, to help everyone share in this subject, without missunderstandings. If anyone has no interest in the botanical names, numbers or botanist names attached to your plants tag, simply ignore them. Also, if my past numbering system, of my horticulturally produced material, has caused confusion, please feel free to contact me for explanations. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, Fl. USA ################### From: j.dewitte@t-online.de (Jean-Pierre De Witte) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:43:25 +0100 Subject: Re:collection numbers Tought maybe I should throw in some comments on above. The reason we don't have collection numbers is because the interesting CPs are protected, either by CITES or by being inside national parks, and since we don't want to go against the law we dont collect plants and thus we can't give collection number, and anybody who says otherwise..................:-) I fully agree with the numbering, as it would make trading more transparent. I myself can't number plants (I think if you are able to sell numbered plants it would mean you collected enough from the wild to exceed your needs as a grower. I have seen enough depleted nepenthes sites to consider this on the borderline of criminal.). On the other hand I started GPS-ing most of the seed I found lately, so the parent sites are known. I will also number plants as they become large enough to sell, and I think this is in accordance with the spirit of the discussion. Take care, Jean-Pierre De Witte mailto:j.dewitte@t-online.de http://www.jeandewitte.de ################### From: "s.p.j. hoogma" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:49:30 +0100 Subject: Email Address Niagara Carnivores Hello Wayne, The adress of Niagara Carnivores must be: ccp@vaxxine.com this is their list: DIONAEA DMU0001G Dionaea muscipula Brunswick Co. NC DROSERA DFI0001G D. filliformis ssp filliformis 'Pine Barrens' DFI0002G D. filliformis ssp filliformis Near Dornoc, Columbus Co. NC DBI0001G D. binata multifida DCA0001G D. capensis (most likely all red form) DRO0001G D. rotundifolia, Huron Co. ON DIN0001G D. intermedia, QC Wild Collected Seed Code Species/Description DARLINGTONIA DAR0001W D. californica, Gasguet Bog, OR PINGUICULA PVU0001W D. vulgaris, Northern Ireland, UK SARRACENIA ALATA SAL0001W S. alata 'black tube pubescent', Stone Co. MS SAL0004W S. alata 'veined', Jackson Co. MS SARRACENIA FLAVA SFL0003W S. flava 'various forms', near Supply, Brunswick Co. NC SFL0004W S. flava var flava, Fall Line Site Near Columbia SC SFL0005W S. flava 'mixed clones', Harleyville SC SFL0006W S. flava var ornata/rugelii, Miramar Beach, Okaloosa Co. FL SFL0007W S. flava var rubricorpora, Near Sumatra, Liberty Co. FL SFL0009W S. flava var rugelii, Liberty Co. FL SFL0010W S. flava var rugelii, Near Homerville, Ware Co. GA SARRACENIA LEUCOPHYLLA SLE0001W S. leucophylla 'very tall plants', Live Oak Creek, Okalossa Co. FL SLE0002W S. leucophylla 'mixed clones', Eglin AFB, Okaloosa Co. FL SLE0004W S. leucophylla Deer Park, Washington Co. AL SLE0005W S. leucophylla 'mixed clones', Avalon Beaches, Santa Rosa Co. FL SLE0006W S. leucophylla 'mixed clones', near Perdido, Baldwin Co. AL SARRACENIA MINOR SMI0001W S. minor, Near Dornoc, Columbus Co. NC SMI0002W S. minor "Okee Giant", Ware Co. GA SARRACENIA PURPUREA SPV0001W S. purpurea ssp venosa, Near Dornoc, Columbus Co. NC SPV0002W S. purpurea ssp venosa, Green Swamp, Brunswick Co. NC SPP0001W S. purpurea ssp purpurea 'veinless', Grey Co. ON SPP0002W S. purpurea ssp purpurea 'marl bog', Bruce Co. ON SPP0003W S. purpurea ssp purpurea 'typical', Wellington Co. ON SPP0004W S. purpurea ssp purpurea 'typical', Huron Co. ON SPP0005W S. purpurea ssp purpurea 'typical', Near Levis. PQ SARRACENIA ROSEA SRO0001W S. rosea, Liberty Co. NC SARRACENIA RUBRA SRR0001W S. rubra ssp rubra, Green Swamp, Brunswick Co. NC SRR0002W S. rubra ssp rubra, near Shallotte, Brunswick Co. NC SRG0001W S. rubra ssp gulfensis, 'mixed red clones', Okaloosa Co. FL SRW0001W S. rubra ssp wherryii, near Deer Park AL SARRACENIA HYBRIDS SYB0001W seed from leuco x alata, near Deer Park, AL greetings, Sipke Hoogma s.p.j.hoogma@hccnet.nl ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:39:02 -0500 Subject: Anyone useing coir for their Nepenthes? Hello, Now that its been on the market for awhile I am wordering if anyone is having success using the coconut husk fiber? I realize Borneo Exotics is using it, but I believe that is the only medium they can regularly obtain. I have heard bad things about Coir here in Florida. Mainly it becomes a soggy-mushy mess and it withholds high amounts of salt from harvest areas these comments come from orchid growers. The price is what still has me interested in Coir, plus it may be a environmental friendly by product. Sincerely, ~ Mike Michael Hunt St. Petersburg Florida USA ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:58:09 +0000 Subject: Re: D.gigantea asexual reproduction? Dick, > >Hi, I have a couple of D. gigantea which are doing fairly well but one of >them has started producing small plants from the leaves! I noticed a few >days ago that there were lots of "insects" on the leaves but failed to look >at them properly. Today I examined them and each leaf has a small plant >growing from the center of the lamina. They look as though they have small >pygmy droseras growing there. Has anybody seen this before, is it common? > A friend was able to collect some D. gigantea seed while in Australia many years ago and after growing the resultant seedlings to maturity found something similar but only with certain clones. These clones would produce small plantlets in the axils between where the leaves or "branches" connected with the main stem. How warm and humid are you keeping your plants? Its possible that a high humidity might cause what you are seeing to happen. The diversity within these plants was amazing, even without the propensity of certain clones to produce these plantlets. Some plants grew tall and leggy, others were much more shrub-like. Other clones produced downward arching "branches" etc., etc. >I shall try and get some of them to grow independently but before I do has >any body had experience of this before and if so, what happened? It is >rather like if I put D. binata leaves in a bag of Sphagnum and they bud off >at the ends. > I believe that if you leave the plantlets they will produce dropper shoots from where they are growing. These will form a tuber when they have penetrated into the soil. It might be worth removing a few of the plantlets as well to see if they will root independently. Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Michael Pagoulatos Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:13:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Collection numbers, CA energy shortage, global warming, and thanks 1. John Green, you write "...Well, for most of us that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other words - I do it for FUN.". My sentiments exactly. On the other hand, I can see the usefulness of a formal tracking system for those who see growing CPs as more than fun; we fun-growers can benefit from it in the form of say, buying/trading and growing for fun what we thought we were buying/trading! In other words, do it if it serves your purpose. 2. Steve Klitzing, you wrote "...As for the skyrocketing utility prices here in California, heating my greenhouse is making things expensive...' and "...As for our government, well, like government anywhere, we have career politicians who only do what's necessary to appease their constituency...". There is no shakedown to jack the electricity prices up, Steve. California has not built any power stations in at least 15 years, caving under pressure from enviro-wacko organizations. California has been buying power from neighboring States like Oregon which, during a really cold winter may not have excess power to sell! I am sure that the enviro-wackos who may be sitting in the dark and freezing, are warm inside for saving the 5-legged hermaphrodite rat and the flatulence-propellent cockroach! To my many friends and family in CA, force your Congress-critters to obey your will; politicos' first priority is to get re-/elected. 3. Good news!: London Telegraph article, titled "Global warming claims 'based on false data'", http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=001851641145319&rtmo=gjYrrfwu&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/01/1/14/wglob14.html 4. Belated thanks to Bruce Dudley and Micghael catalani for their responses to my "mulching the bogs for winter" post! Take care, Michael Pagoulatos Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ################### From: "Senor Jota" Date: 14 Jan 2001 11:41:36 -0800 Subject: Trip to Malaysia Hello CP List, I've been lurking on the list for several years now, soaking up the discussions and information. I just found out that I will be travelling to peninsular Malaysia for the next month, starting Friday, on a business trip. I'm going to be taking a week off to see the country, and was hoping to see some CP varieties in their natural setting. I will be, for the most part, on the peninsula, but I'm hoping to be able to manage a trip to East Malaysia. I'm fairly familiar with most CP flavors, however I've never seen a Utric in real life. Does anyone have any recommendations on CP sites to visit? The Lonely Planet guide to Malaysia has scant information, I'm currently scouring the web for anything I can find. Please forgive me if there is an obvious source for this information in the posts, I've been off the list for a bit. Thanks in advance for your time, JJ ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:06:55 -0800 Subject: Re: D.gigantea asexual reproduction? > at them properly. Today I examined them and each leaf has a small plant > growing from the center of the lamina. They look as though they have small > pygmy droseras growing there. Has anybody seen this before, is it common? This may be something different, but I bought a baby D. gigantea (with a tiny tuber) from Doug Darnowski a few months back. I planted it in a small pot and put it in a humid terrarium. The original foliage died back (I don't know if the tuber is dead or not), but while one of the stems was leanded over, touching the soil, it seemed to leave a plantlet there. The plantlet does seem to be still alive, so I have good hopes of at least that part living. -Joe ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:10:43 -0200 Subject: Seed bank & Collection numbers Hi John and all, While we're on the subject of collection numbers, accession numbers, etc. I thought it was a bit ironic to see a wrongly spelled plant name pop up in John's e-mail about the seeds Sean donated to the seed bank (the correct spelling of that hybrid is "derbyensis" not "darbyensis"). Here we are proposing a whole new way of recording and keeping track of our CPs, involving many numbers and/or letters, which could be easily tracked through some updatable database available on the web. Nevertheless we can't even seem to keep track of correct spelling for the actual species names, when the answers are all quickly available in the fantastic database Jan put up (http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home). I don't want to sound like a picky taxonomist here, but before we establish anything more complicated for identification of our plants, how about we worry a little more about the correct spelling of scientific names? And it's not just the specific, but also the generic names. One of the most common misspellings occurs with Genlisea. Even in CP books! -- and I admit it makes me wanna scream every time I see "Genlesia" or some variant. OK, I admit I still don't know how to spell Triphyophyllum correctly, for example. But if I have to write the name (like now), I take a few seconds to look it up somewhere. And the best choice is Jan's database. Sorry John, I don't want to make a Judas out of you, it was simply a very opportune example. We see such misspelling all the time on the listserv and on private/commercial plant/ seed lists. Usually we just let it pass and forget it. But when we see it in CP books or in CP societies' newsletters, it really deduces from their credibility in many of our eyes. I think the most blatant example that I know of is the Japanese Carnivorous Plant Society newsletter, where plant names are commonly misspelt. Sorry to those responsible for this newsletter, but I do hope you'll take this as constructive criticism, to be more careful when editing your journal and take the extra time to look up the correct spellings, for your own good. Scientific names are not a cultural or language barrier, they were created so they would always be written the same way and thus avoid confusion. You can pronounce them however you want, and this does vary a lot from place to place. But at least we'll know what you're talking about when it's written correctly. So as a final suggestion to all seed banks and newsletters: use Jan's database as your bible and check everything that comes in. If you're not sure, ask the person who donated the seeds. After all, it's never been easier and faster to check info than it is now with the internet (wish I'd had this back in grade school....). Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:50:48 EST Subject: Borneo Hi All, Greg made an interesting side comment about his upcoming trip to Borneo. Although I dearly love them, all you hear about Borneo is Nepenthes, Nepenthes, Nepenthes. The only exception I know of is D. "sp 8 Borneo" which from what I have last heard, has been reduced to a localed D. spatulata. What other CPs do grow there? So many trips by list members and ICPS members there. Seems like there should be more than Nepenthes. I also have a question about Malaysia. I stayed overnight at the hospital last weekend(nothing serious) and one of the techs noticed my "Borneo Exotics" T-shirt(great shirts, Rob:) and inquired and I told him about my hobby and he said he spent time in Malaysia as a kid and remembered seeing " Venus flytraps" growing in the wild. I told him that it was something else, possibly a sundew, but he seemed quite convinced and described it as interesting how it caught insects. Any speculation of what this might be? I did not think anyone would get a Nepenthes and a flytrap confused. Regards, Joe ################### From: "Tony Camilleri" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:47:16 +0930 Subject: CP book I have received lots of correspondence lately in the difficulty in obtaining my book. The reason being is that it had sold out. However, I am pleased to announce that a reprint is now available and it should once again be easily available. Any inquiries, please do not hesitate to contact me. Tony Camilleri P.S: If anyone would like signed copies. They are available from myself at $33 Australian. Posted anywhere in the world. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Walter Hafner Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:06:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: D. capensis "alba" Hi, > Here is a relatively mundane question about something I am a little > fuzzy on: Is D. capensis"alba" referring to a white- flowered > form(seems like it should) or is it referring to a all green plant? > I have heard both used as descriptions. What I supposedly have is > all-green and I have never had it flower. Don't know, what the name actually refers to, but: I grow D. capensis "alba" for 5-6 years and all of them are pure green and flower pure white. And they are just as weedy as the "regular" D. capensis. Regards. -Walter ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:16:18 +0000 Subject: Yet More Re: Plant numbering Several points: 1. >To make it a little easier I have a suggestion used by our Zoo. If you >have a large collection of various cps it is easier to assign the >numbers in tiers to allow for easier tracking. For example all fo your >pings could be 100-199, the drosera could be 200-299, utrics are >300-399, etc. Of couse you can assign any numbers but this allows a >little bit of easier cataloging and tracking. Help! I want to answer this but I can't (i.e. shouldn't)!!! Surely there's someone out there who can respond and say why new collections might not want to do this. I'm ***not*** criticising what is done at the zoo. Just pointing out there's a reason not to use tiered numbering systems if you start numbering now. The logic of the response includes the idea that an Accession or Collector's number need not ("need" is not the same as "should"!) include any interpretable information (for example, if you collect Sarracenias and red rosetty things, there's no need to prefix the Sarracenia numbers with S and the red rosetty things with RRT, you can number all of them 1,2,3,etc. irrespective of what the plants are, in any order. Surely someone else can extend this?) 2. >this is their list: >DMU0001G Dionaea muscipula Brunswick Co. NC >DFI0001G D. filliformis ssp filliformis 'Pine Barrens' >... In case it's not clear, these are examples of Accession Numbers where the supplier/owner has identified all plants types by their own reference number. They do not appear to be Collector's Numbers as they are not all associated with plants that can readily be identified as having been collected from the wild (as seen in examples I didn't paste in above). This is a good example of a published list where numbers are clear and unique. The format is more complex than most growers need, as a hobby collection can easily use plain number sequences (1,2,3,4, etc.). But formatting is entirely up to the person using the numbers. 3. >My sentiments exactly. On the other hand, I can see the usefulness of >a formal tracking system for those who see growing CPs as more than >fun; we fun-growers can benefit from it in the form of say, >buying/trading and growing for fun what we thought we were >buying/trading! In other words, do it if it serves your purpose. Exactly! 4. >Nevertheless we can't even >seem to keep track of correct spelling for the actual species names, when >the answers are all quickly available in the fantastic database Jan put up It's a valid point that both names and numbers can be mistyped. We each have to be careful when we read and then record a name or number. I've received plants from named locations where the place name is written in a foreign language in handwriting - very difficult to read and check! But numbering will help. If a plant name is accidentally corrupted, anyone can check back to the source if records are kept and eventually, someone will. But worse still. I once received plants with wild place names written on paper labels in ink. The ink had run as the labels got damp in the post. I could read the plant names but all were P. vulgaris. If the plants had had numbers, I might have been able to read enough to write and ask the sender to re-identify the source of each numbered plants. Yes, the ink of the numbers could have run as well, but numbers are usually easier to read than hand written place names, especially if care is taken to write 0 and 6 differently and if 7 is written with a horizontal line through it so it can not be mistaken for 1. (Of cousre, if you type numbers then it should be clear anyway.) Another point out of this comment (indirectly) was to remind all - if you receive a plant, say P. gypsicola, from one person and another P. gypsicola (i.e. the same type of plant) from another person, you should, if keeping good records, assign each a different accession number. This allows you to track each plant back to its separate source. (It allows a lot more as well but 'nuf said on this for now). Spelling plant names correctly is very important but plant names and accession numbers are different and serve different purposes. (A plant can have an accession number before it has a name.) You can share plants as soon as they have accession numbers as you can publish the name once you know it, and remnd people that the name applies to all plants distributed with the accession (or collector's) number of [what ever it was]. 5. >Don't know, what the name actually refers to, but: >I grow D. capensis "alba" for 5-6 years and all of them are pure green >and flower pure white. And they are just as weedy as the "regular" >D. capensis. I'm replying to the original question that resulted in the reply quoted above. If the plants had all had accession and/or Collector's Numbers, this question (the original question, several emails back) could have been answered easily. As it is, none of us (including the person who asked the original question) knows or can easily find out if the plant in question originated from a wild plant, from a cultivated plant or what name these original parent had. If a taxonomist saw the plant in question, it could be re-identified, though I haven't checked Jan's (excellent) database to see if either "alba" or "All Green" are recorded as legitimate taxa or cultivar names. If not, the whole question is fairly spurious as we're trying to tie together plants based on names where such names may not be legitimate! If they're not legitimate, you can't possibly know who is using which name to mean what! However, if plants have Accesion Numbers you can tie the plants together if they originate from a single plant, irrespective of the validity of the plant's name. Just comments. Regards Paul ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:09:40 -0500 Subject: Numbering of plants Hi Paul, I really liked your post about numbering plants. Is there a system for numbering collected seeds from a wild population when the seed from a population are mixed. With Don Schnell's recent proposal for naming flava varieties, I've realized that I sent out mislabelled seeds. I sent a post to the list serve to correct my error now that I understand the difference between rugelii and flava flava and know that cutthroat is not a valid name, to give a couple of examples. A numbering system would have been easier. David Atlanta ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:44:55 -0500 Subject: re: Seed bank & Collection numbers Hey Fernando and everyone, I havent had time to follow this thread but, as far as seed bank misspellings go, I think it's somewhat of a good thing when no other info is provided with donations. Why? Well, I know for a fact that Sean knows how to spell derbyensis and, though he might joke about it, he also knows the correct spelling of petiolaris. But if there is a misspelling in the name of a plant thats distributed to a few people, it would be a good idea to make note of the misspelling. Why? Simply because that's a good way to distinguish that particular plant from others labelled with the correct spelling. And if (Ivan got his hands on it and) that plant turns out to be derbyensis x Dionaea muscipula, at least people can more easily figure out that that is what they have.... :) Wouldn't it be great if every false montana communis, esmeraldae, affinis, etc was misspelled and the misspelling stuck?! then EVERYONE would know to avoid them cause they'd know they'd turn out to be some weed like spatulata... Just a thought. SundewMatt PS to those who are waiting to hear back from me about my latest plant sale, please be patient. This has been a crazy week for me and I will get to it as soon as possible. Hi John and all, While we're on the subject of collection numbers, accession numbers, etc. I thought it was a bit ironic to see a wrongly spelled plant name pop up in John's e-mail about the seeds Sean donated to the seed bank (the correct spelling of that hybrid is "derbyensis" not "darbyensis"). Here we are proposing a whole new way of recording and keeping track of our CPs, involving many numbers and/or letters, which could be easily tracked through some updatable database available on the web. Nevertheless we can't even seem to keep track of correct spelling for the actual species names, when the answers are all quickly available in the fantastic database Jan put up (http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home). I don't want to sound like a picky taxonomist here, but before we establish anything more complicated for identification of our plants, how about we worry a little more about the correct spelling of scientific names? And it's not just the specific, but also the generic names. One of the most common misspellings occurs with Genlisea. Even in CP books! -- and I admit it makes me wanna scream every time I see "Genlesia" or some variant. OK, I admit I still don't know how to spell Triphyophyllum correctly, for example. But if I have to write the name (like now), I take a few seconds to look it up somewhere. And the best choice is Jan's database. Sorry John, I don't want to make a Judas out of you, it was simply a very opportune example. We see such misspelling all the time on the listserv and on private/commercial plant/ seed lists. Usually we just let it pass and forget it. But when we see it in CP books or in CP societies' newsletters, it really deduces from their credibility in many of our eyes. I think the most blatant example that I know of is the Japanese Carnivorous Plant Society newsletter, where plant names are commonly misspelt. Sorry to those responsible for this newsletter, but I do hope you'll take this as constructive criticism, to be more careful when editing your journal and take the extra time to look up the correct spellings, for your own good. Scientific names are not a cultural or language barrier, they were created so they would always be written the same way and thus avoid confusion. You can pronounce them however you want, and this does vary a lot from place to place. But at least we'll know what you're talking about when it's written correctly. So as a final suggestion to all seed banks and newsletters: use Jan's database as your bible and check everything that comes in. If you're not sure, ask the person who donated the seeds. After all, it's never been easier and faster to check info than it is now with the internet (wish I'd had this back in grade school....). Best Wishes, ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:10:47 -0500 Subject: education Not that I'm tired of talking about numbers but I thought I would change the subject and talk about Holly's and her Mom's visit this past Saturday. When I talked to Holly's Mom to give directions, we discovered that she lived just a few blocks away and that Holly attends the elementary school where I put in and maintain a carnivorous plant bog. We had the best time walking around and looking at the bogs. It was great to talk to someone in elementary school who could name the plants in my bogs. I'm so used to Pinguicula and find it difficult to remember that they are butterworts but Holly knew butterworts right off as well as pitcher plants so when we got to the Venus Fly traps, I knew she knew that one. I was impressed again when Holly knew the difference between an American pitcher plant and a tropical pitcher plant. And I introduced her to the scientific names. I was blown away when Holly knew what a Utricularia was and that she had written about them in her report. We talked about the aquatic utric that was growing in an old plastic Sprite bottle, and I showed her a terrestrial utric. We both had a surprise when I held up the potted terrestrial utric and saw the traps that were attached to the roots that had grown into the standing water the pot was sitting in. Yes, an elementary school girl that knows what a Utricularia is is tops in my book. I then handed Holly a Sarracenia leucophylla pitcher that was sliced down the length of the tube. Holly pulled the tube apart to expose the dead bugs and we both observed how the bugs at the bottom of the tube were more decomposed compared to the still discernible moth resting on top of all the partially decomposed bugs. Holly was not squeamish about this. I was quite impressed again. Holly went home with several pitcher tubes, including a phyllodia, a mature S. purpurea, and several Drosera complete with caught insects. Holly had handed in her report but talked about updating it for the science fair to include that Utricularia also grew as terrestrials. I put in several plugs that I would be willing to talk to her Dad about putting a bog in her yard and I would give her more plants come spring. I suppose this is really a challenge to you folks on the list to do something where you live to educate kids about cp's. I'd bet the farm that the elementary school in your neighborhood would love to have a carnivorous plant bog or cp's growing in a sunny windowsill. CP'ers here on the list have been very generous and a couple of years when I started the bog, several people donated plants when I sent out a request so you have a willing storehouse of cp material even if you don't have a lot yourself. I'm always good for a few Sarracenia. David Atlanta ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:12:32 +0000 Subject: "common" names Dear Steven, > I only wish to point out the importance of > including as much information as possible, including common names, to help > everyone share in this subject, without missunderstandings. A plant name you might consider "common" in Florida does not need to be so common or familiar in Tennessee (or even California, Japan, or Angola). So in fact the only really common name from a more general, global perspective (welcome to the INTERnet!) is the scientific, Latin binomial that can be understood (unambiguously; if the ID is correct) by us all. A valid Latin name is traceable information by virtue of the corresponding protologue and type specimen. This is not the case with "common" names. Using vernacular/trivial names does not facilitate anything, it potentially increases confusion. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:44:18 +0000 Subject: correct spelling Dear Fernando, > But if I have to write the name (like now), I take a few seconds to > look it up somewhere. And the best choice is Jan's database. Thank you very much for your enthusiastic appreciation. But nobody is perfect (not even the Index Kewensis, which I consider the largest list of correctly written plant names; it nevertheless includes a few typos). Each time I update the cp database, I find errors, typos, or inconsistencies. Quite a few of them have been pointed at by careful users, and those who made major contributions are acknowledged in the head of the text version of the database. I would like to take this opportunity (again) to invite all users of the cp db to use it carefully. While I hope it is better than any other list of cp names (incl. previous versions of the same db), it definitely can, and if time allows, it will be improved. Your comments and suggestions are welcome. The database is intended to be useful, not dogmatic. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Kamil Pasek" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:29:36 +0100 Subject: ALDROVANDA AND UTRICULARIA SPECIES FOR SALE ALDROVANDA VESICULOSA AND EUROPEAN AQUATIC UTRICULARIA SPECIES FOR SALE Institute of Botany in Trebon, Czech Republic, offers for sale: A) Aldrovanda vesiculosa turions for CP growers, scientific or Nature Conservation organizations, for cultivation or (re)introduction activities. The plants from East Poland are cultivated outdoors. They will be sent by post mail, as turions enclosed in a tiny PE tube, from November to May. A limited amount of turions from NE Romania is also available. Romanian plants are more robust and flower more often. Price: 5 USD (or 10 DEM)/turion + postage 6 USD (or 12 DEM); minimum order: 10 turions; any order over 50 turions: price 3 USD/turion (or 6 DEM). For the cultivation instructions see the paper by L. Adamec (1997): "How to grow Aldrovanda vesiculosa outdoors" in the special issue of CPN 26: 85-88. The instructions may be sent on request. B) Australian (sub)tropical Aldrovanda vesiculosa plants for indoor cultivation. As dependent on light conditions these plants can be red. Plants from an indoor culture of three Australian populations are available (they are the same in culture): a) Subtropical: East-coast Australia, S. of Sydney, NSW; b) Tropical: S. of Darwin, NT. c) Tropical: Kimberley, NW Australia, WA. The Australian plants grow over the whole year at temperatures above 18 oC and do not form turions. At lower temperatures, they form weakly dormant turions. In temperate regions, they may also be grown outdoors over summer season. Apical segments ca. 4 cm long are sent by post mail in plastic vials or tubes, from March to November, when outdoor temperature is above 5 oC. For the cultivation conditions see the paper by L. Adamec (1999): "The biology and cultivation of red Australian Aldrovanda vesiculosa" in CPN 28(4): 128-132. Price: 8 USD (or 16 DEM)/plant + postage 6 USD (or 12 DEM); minimum order (regardless of the populations): 4 plants. C) Turions of European temperate aquatic Utricularia species for outdoor cultivation: U. australis, U. vulgaris, U. minor, U. bremii, U. intermedia, U. ochroleuca. Turions are sent by post mail in tiny PE tubes, from November to June. Price: 2 USD (or 4 DEM)/turion + postage 6 USD (or 12 DM); minimum order (regardless of the species): 10 turions. D) Plants or dormant turions of Utricularia dimorphanta. U. dimorphanta is an aquatic Japanese endemic species, formerly growing on the whole Honshu island (subtropical to warm temperate climate), but is critically endangered recently. Growing of this species is the same as that of Australian Aldrovanda. However, it prefers more shade and temperatures >20 oC. Apical segments ca. 4 cm long or turions are sent by post mail in plastic vials or tubes, at above zero temperatures for the whole year. Price: 8 USD (or 16 DEM)/plant or turion + postage 6 USD (or 12 DEM). Minimum order: 4 plants or turions. Limited amount of this species is available. Invoice will be sent by the Institute of Botany. Payment should be realised as direct sending the due sum in cash, in registered letter to the below address. Checks or cards are not acceptable. Payment in advance, prior to sending the plants is required. Contact address: Lubomir ADAMEC Institute of Botany, Dukelska 135, CZ-379 82 TREBON, Czech Republic tel.+420-333-721156; fax -721136; E-mail adamec@butbn.cas.cz ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:07:32 +0000 Subject: Collection Numbers & Capensis 'Alba' The downside to collection numbers is that they are like 'location names', some people feel obliged to collect them all. And then they have to buy the book that translates the numbers into field locations. Of course, in an ideal world, every plant would come with its complete genome mapping, but that might be a bit long to write on a label! I understand the white-flowered form of capensis was described in the British journal many years ago, and the 'Alba' designation is not valid (although everyone understands it). In my own experience, although the foliage stays green and the flowers stay white, prolonged sunshine can cause the glands to go pinkish. NigelH ################### From: "R B" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:13:22 -0800 Subject: Coming Soon: New CP Bog Garden at Huntington Botanical Gardens At the Los Angles CPS meeting held this past weekend, Leo Song mentioned that a new carnivorous plant bog garden is being setup at the Huntington Botanical Gardens located in San Marino, California. Plants are being donated from the California State University Fullerton collection, and the bog garden desing was done by Leo's wife. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:19:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Drosera capensis "alba" ?? Hey Folks, Not too sound sanctimonious, but.... One reason that the characteristics of the so-called Drosera capensis "alba" may be difficult to figure out is that this is an invalid cultivar name that has never been established or registered. So with no published description, there is no way to tell whether the "alba" designation is intended to describe the flower color, the pale tentacles, or perhaps the color of the roots in cross-section! :) Of course, I am aware that the name is used to describe a plant that has white flowers and very pale tentacles. The correct name for this plant, though, is Drosera capensis 'Albino', as noted in the ICPS cultivar database at: http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home (Just hit the "show only cultivar names" button, and type in Drosera to see what you get) Later! Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "R B" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:34:32 -0800 Subject: CP stamps release date Rumor has it that the new US Carnivorous Plants stamps will be released on August 23, 2001. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:27:34 +1100 Subject: Re: Drosera capensis "alba" ?? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer to this form as 'anthocyanin free' or 'low anthocyanin' D. capensis? Even though my plants get pink glands in the sun, I think this may be due to something else, and the rest of the plant never develops any pink or red coloration. Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:00:34 -0200 Subject: Drosera F2 hybrids To all, John sent me a private mail regarding that petiolaris-complex hybrid he received from Sean which posed a few interesting questions in my mind. I thought it would be interesting to discuss it here. John said Sean's seeds may be an F2 or even F3 cross of those two species (derbyensis X something, I can't remember) and wondered how the offspring would look, how the characters would segregate. A few years back I did a lot of Drosera hybridization, obtaining several fertile crosses. Strangely enough though, I never noticed any segregation among the F2, F3, etc. Weird, isn't it?? I would expect to see something like in Sarracenia where you get the whole spectrum between both parents. Could this be do to the fact that I was crossing tetraploid African Drosera (2n=40)? Since everything was already duplicated, maybe this somehow buffered the segregation effect.... Any ideas?? Now with the petiolaris-complex, I have no idea what happens with F2, F3, etc., since the chromosome numbers are a bit odd in this group. Has anyone noticed segregation of characters in the F2 generation in any of these petiolaris-complex hybrids? Or with any other fertile Drosera hybrid? Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil (and out of the country for 10 days starting Wednesday) ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:32:01 +0930 Subject: Re: Coir for Nepenthes I've used coconut fibre chopped up into small (few cm) lengths, but I mixed it with other ingredients such as peat, fir bark & charcoal. It lightens the potting mix and has lasted at least a year in tropical conditions. I find the chopped fibre is awkward to handle when it's wet, as it tends to clump together. I started using peat bricks a while ago. The label says that they contain coir fibre (which binds the brick). It was only when I looked up a dictionary some time later that I realised that coir is coconut fibre. It's interesting to split open a coconut that's sprouted. Inside is a large seedling virtually sealed in a container of fibre. One day I'd like to try and grow a Nepenthes in a coconut that's had its seedling removed. BTW, can anyone point me to specific growing information on N. ampullaria (eg old digests)? Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:26:10 -0200 Subject: Drosera slander! To Paul and other Drosera-slanderers! >> Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette >>thingies (Drosera) ... >Ah, a like minded soul :-) Hey, hey, hey! Watch how you talk about my children here! Offend my kids and you offend me. Wanna find out how those sissy-stickless yellow Drosera immitators taste the hard way??? HUH???? :):):) Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:29:17 -0200 Subject: Drosera slander! To Paul and other Drosera-slanderers! >> Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette >>thingies (Drosera) ... >Ah, a like minded soul :-) Hey, hey, hey! Watch how you talk about my children here! Offend my kids and you offend me. Wanna find out how those sissy-stickless yellow Drosera immitators (bad ones too) taste the hard way??? HUH???? :):):) Better do a little Drosera sucking-up if you ever want to see those Chilean Pings alive! ;) Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:05:13 +0930 Subject: Mushrooms A few months ago, mushrooms started growing from a pot containing two N. maxima x veitchii (xTiveyi?). I identified the mushrooms as Armillaria mellea, or the Honey Fungus, a widespread parasite (particularly conifers). I transplanted the two plants to separate pots, but they got really spotty and stunted. The larger plant looked so bad, that I transplanted it again this time to a garden bed outside (the soil here's really barren). Both plants are still alive and the one in the ground has grown a couple of new leaves which are small but are free of the brown spots. I mention this because more mushrooms are popping up from a pot containing a Bougainvillea. They're really spectacular and more interesting than the Bougainvillea. If only I could get them growing regularly. I'm sure there would be a market for boutique ornamental fungi. If anyone wanted Armillaria mellea spores, I could probably collect some (only joking). Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:32:35 -0500 Subject: Common names Hello Jan & list I thank you for your welcome for me to the INTERNET. I in no way wish to add to confusion that is already so apparent. I also would like to thank you for all of your enlightening work done to help end confusion on your CP Database. I use it often. In the past year I have discovered an overwhelming number of people who still call a meter tall Nepenthes bicalcarata, a hanging Flytrap. You may or may not care, I am no longer attempting to operate a plant business, that I produced many different types of plants, some CP and some not. When trying to open markets to large retail customers, I was told to name the CP, "Hanging Flytraps" (Nepenthes), "Upright Flytraps" (Sarracenia), and "Venus Flytraps" ( Dionaea, Drosera, Pinguicula, Utricularia, Genlisia). Like it or not, business does play a part in education and education is big business. In any case, I do realize over use of "common names" does confuse matters in the long run. But thank goodness the world is familiar with the "common name" Carnivorous Plants! These plants, and all information about them, would all be very obscure without it. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, Fl USA > Topic No. 5 > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:12:32 +0000 > From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de > To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com > Subject: "common" names > Message-ID: <200101151721.SAA21564@mx03.uni-tuebingen.de> > > > Dear Steven, > > > I only wish to point out the importance of > > including as much information as possible, including common names, to help > > everyone share in this subject, without missunderstandings. > > A plant name you might consider "common" in Florida does not need to > be so common or familiar in Tennessee (or even California, Japan, or > Angola). So in fact the only really common name from a more > general, global perspective (welcome to the INTERnet!) is the > scientific, Latin binomial that can be understood (unambiguously; > if the ID is correct) by us all. A valid Latin name is traceable > information by virtue of the corresponding protologue and type > specimen. This is not the case with "common" names. Using > vernacular/trivial names does not facilitate anything, it > potentially increases confusion. > > Kind regards > Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:20:59 +0000 Subject: correct name for alba Dear Nigel, Thanks, Barry, for your clarification. Just a few further details: > I understand the white-flowered form of capensis was described in the > British journal many years ago, Yes (in 1989), as _Drosera_ ' Albino '. > and the 'Alba' designation is not valid It is not established (cultivar names must be *established* before they can be registered, only taxonomic/Latin names are *validated*) because it is simply not the name published in 1989. The *established*, registered name for the cultivar in question is _Drosera_ ' Albino ' (v.s.). > (although everyone understands it). It depends. Obviously there *is* some confusion (see previous messages on this topic). For _Drosera_ ' Albino ', there is a description and a standard (=prerequisites for registration), so everyone who can read and see should be able to understand what the name means. HINT for the serious grower: register your cultivar names *NOW*! It is easy, it is useful (v.s.), it is about time; for details visit: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cultivars/cult1.html Kind regards Jan ################### From: EdwardK674@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:57:48 EST Subject: Re: numbering system In a message dated 1/16/01 4:23:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: << Help! I want to answer this but I can't (i.e. shouldn't)!!! Surely there's someone out there who can respond and say why new collections might not want to do this. I'm ***not*** criticising what is done at the zoo. Just pointing out there's a reason not to use tiered numbering systems if you start numbering now. The logic of the response includes the idea that an Accession or Collector's number need not ("need" is not the same as "should"!) include any interpretable information (for example, if you collect Sarracenias and red rosetty things, there's no need to prefix the Sarracenia numbers with S and the red rosetty things with RRT, you can number all of them 1,2,3,etc. irrespective of what the plants are, in any order. Surely someone else can extend this? >> There is a reason but it is really only valid in large collections. The reason is that if you have tiered system (for example here the amphibians are 400000-499999 while the reptiles are 300000-399999) and you need to find your hard copy of the information regarding that accession number. It makes it a lot easier to track the information down as opposed to a nontiered system. Each different plant line (or if you want each different plant) could be assigned a different number to make tracking easier, it would just depend on how much you wan to track each individual plant. As I pointed out this is really only valid in a large collection. Ed ################### From: "Steve Klitzing" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:31:01 -0800 Subject: Bubble wrap inside glass greenhouse Hi all: I just installed bubble wrap inside my glass greenhouse. The greenhouse is now keeping its heat. Cost was $67 for a 12' by 16' greenhouse. All you have to do is tape it to the frame with clear packing tape. The bubble wrap provides excellent insulation, and is a nearly no-cost alternative to expensive twin wall polycarbonate. At this cost, you can buy new bubble wrap every year. Or, if you're careful, you can take down the bubble wrap in the spring and store it for next winter. ---Steve Klitzing _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:34:17 EST Subject: Re: Common names Hi All, Thank you Steven for you comments on "hanging flytraps." That probably answers the question I asked yesterday(?) on how someone would insist he saw Venus flytraps in the wild in Malaysia back in the 70s. I was underestimating the potential for generalization geared towards the non-CPer. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "R B" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:42:43 -0800 Subject: Re: Bubble wrap inside glass greenhouse >At this cost, you can buy new bubble wrap every year. Or, if you're >careful, you can take down the bubble wrap in the spring and store it for >next winter. Why take it down at all? It is for insulation, correct? Won't it help keep the greenhouse cooler in the summer if you keep it in place? Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: john green Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 12:38:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: More Re: Collection numbers Ouch! First of all, sorry about my posting last week. After I sent it I realized that I probably could have been a little more diplomatic than I was. E peco desculpas Fernando, if I misconstrued your comments. Like I said, I had accidentally deleted the e-mail and was going from memory and must have pulled the "lazy" bit from another message. Secondly, I now see the purpose and usefulness of a tracking system. I misunderstood it to be a formal system regulated by some central authority (not that I'm opposed to central authorities!). I completely agree that location data needs to be collected and shared with anyone receiving the seed - which I already abide by. My collection isn't big enough and I don't do enough trading/selling that I'd create a formal system, but then, that's probably just my laziness showing through ;-). John Green - still a kid at 33 Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: "Tony Camilleri" Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:00:13 +0930 Subject: Looking for Doug Darnowski Could anybody provide me with Doug Darnowski's current email ? Regards Tony Camilleri [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:44:52 +0000 Subject: And still more Re Numbering ("Won't he ever tire" - I hear you say) :-) > I really liked your post about numbering plants. Thank you! > Is there a system for > numbering collected seeds from a wild population when the seed from a > population are mixed. Ugh! You are stretching my knowledge to breaking point and I hope a professional taxonomist with field collection experience will step in any answer the question (hint hint)! Meanwhile, my view is as follows. Logic dictates that the seed should not in fact be collected as a mixture if it can be avoided. But if we assume it is, we should also assume some effort is taken to collect seed from what appears to be a single type of plant (i.e. one species). Then the seed is given a single Collector's Number and distributed with that number. If it later transpires that two species were mixed together, at least the attached Collector's Number will aloow both species to be traced back to their original point of origin in the wild. As a mixed collection (i.e. different seed in a single packet) is far from what would be expoected of a feld botasnist, I suspect there are no published "rules" for dealing with it. It might therefore be inappropriate to start separating out the seeds and try to package them separately, but where the seed looks different this might also be a way of proceeding as long as each packet is labelled with a Collector's Number and as long as each Collector's Number relates to well kept data. But I repeat, I'd like a taxonomist with field collection experience to comment too. > Wouldn't it be great if every false montana communis, esmeraldae, affinis, > etc was misspelled and the misspelling stuck?! then EVERYONE would know to > avoid them cause they'd know they'd turn out to be some weed like > spatulata... Nice idea - but all you'd end up with are lots of different plants sharing the same incorrect name. Only plant numbering (Collection Numbers and Accession Numbers) will ever resolve this, which is exactly why they were devised. > I don't want to sound like a picky taxonomist here, but before > we establish anything more complicated for identification of our plants, how > about we worry a little more about the correct spelling of scientific names? Perfectly valid point, but a different subject. > The downside to collection numbers is that they are like 'location > names', some people feel obliged to collect them all. Agreed. But then that is the fault of the person electing to do so. I realise that some people collect in order to attempt to have the longest list, somehow thinking that this equates to the best or most important collection. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder so a long list to some may simply be a bad list to others. (e.g. a Pinguicula list containing just 20 different types of P. moranensis may be 20 different plants to one collector but just one plant to another). I certainly hope we don't avoid numbering just because a few people might feel obliged to collect them! > I understand the white-flowered form of capensis was described in the > British journal many years ago, and the 'Alba' designation is not > valid (although everyone understands it). Oh no they don't! I say again, how can anyonme understand what is undefined? There is no published definition for what is meant by D. capensis 'Alba'. If there was, it would be an established name. As it is not published, be definition no-one has ever described what is meant by it. So anyone can assume they know what is meant, but no-one, not even a single person, actually knows what is meant by D. capensis 'Alba' unless they personally attach the name to a plant that arrives without such a name. And if they do attach the name themselves, they can not possibly be doing so based on another plant they know of called D. capensis 'Alba' because they can not know what features that other plant has that are specifically identified by the unestablished name of D. capensis 'Alba'. (Sorry Nigel - not having a go at you - you know me enough to know that.) > Of course, I am aware that the name is used to describe a plant that has > white flowers and very pale tentacles. The correct name for this plant, > though, is Drosera capensis 'Albino', as noted in the ICPS cultivar > database at: > http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home > However, no-one has yet pinted out, so I will, that it would be entirely incorect for everyone to now pull out their D. capensis "Alba" (or is it "alba") labels and replace them with D. capensis 'Albino' labels. This can only be done correctly if people first read the description of D. capensis 'Albino'. They would then have to compare their plants labelled D. capensis "Alba" (or "alba"). Only if their plants met the description of D. capensis 'Albino' could they then replace the labels. In fact, it's my belief that without taking the trouble to identify the plant, collectors would be doing us a favour if they maintained their D. capensis "Alba" (or "alba") labels so as not to further muddle us all by distributing plants mis-identified as D. capensis 'Albino' without the benefit of any process of identification. > Wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer to this form as 'anthocyanin free' No because the apostrophes written as you have indicate that the name is intended to represent a cultivar and no such cultivar is registered. There are rules on what names may or may not be used as cultivar names but as long as one obeys a rule, the rules do not include definition of what is more appropriate. Thus, if a plant is very red, a cultivar name of "Brown" can legitimately be applied (I think!) even though, if colour is indicated, it's clearly inappropriate (unless you're colour blind). > or 'low anthocyanin' D. capensis? No because you can't place a cultivar name before the Latin name. If you reverse the order, the previous reposne (previous paragraph) applies! > >> Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette > >>thingies (Drosera) ... > > >Ah, a like minded soul :-) > > Hey, hey, hey! Watch how you talk about my children here! Offend > my kids and you offend me. Wanna find out how those sissy-stickless yellow > Drosera immitators taste the hard way??? HUH???? :):):) Promises promises! >>Just pointing out there's a reason not to use tiered numbering systems >>if you start numbering now. The logic of the response includes the >>idea that an Accession or Collector's number need not ("need" is not >>the same as "should"!) include any interpretable information (for >>example, if you collect Sarracenias and red rosetty things, there's no >>need to prefix the Sarracenia numbers with S and the red rosetty >>things with RRT, you can number all of them 1,2,3,etc. irrespective >>of what the plants are, in any order. >The reason is that if you have tiered system (for example here the >amphibians are 400000-499999 while the reptiles are 300000-399999) and >you need to find your hard copy of the information regarding that >accession number. It makes it a lot easier to track the information >down as opposed to a nontiered system. Each different plant line (or >if you want each different plant) could be assigned a different number >to make tracking easier, it would just depend on how much you wan to >track each individual plant. As I pointed out this is really only >valid in a large collection. Oh ok, since no-one stepped in. (Now where did I put my safety net?) I understand the benefits the zoo gets from treating the data in this way. However, for someone starting a ***new*** recording system I would still recommend a non-tiered system. If a pen and paper system is being used, a large collection would become unweildy. If a computer system is being used, the system itslef should manage all groupings for the user such that there is no need at all to worry about two related members of the collection (accessions) having similar or related numbers. So, to put it in CP trms, suppose you have 100,000 specimens that are each different by way of name, cultivar or wild source location, i.e. 100,000 different specimens. Let's suppose there are equally numbers of Sarracenia, Nepenthes, Pinguicula and Drosera and that you have less than 10,000 of each. You could have all Pings as 10000 - 19999, Neps as 20000-29999, Sarras as 30000-39999 and Dros (pertinent acronym?) 40000-41000. This in theory makes it easy to search within a group. But any good software would easily know which records related to Drosera even if the numbering of Drosera specimens was completely random. However, note this only applies to new attempts to start a numbering system. I would not recommend that an existing large collection be renumbered randomly to replace an existing tiered system. Cheers Paul ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:17:53 -0800 Subject: re: Drosera F2 Hybrids >Now with the petiolaris-complex, I have no idea what happens >with F2, F3, etc., since the chromosome numbers are a bit odd in this group. >Has anyone noticed segregation of characters in the F2 generation in any of >these petiolaris-complex hybrids? Or with any other fertile Drosera hybrid? >Best Wishes, >Fernando Rivadavia >Sao Paulo, Brazil Hi Fernando and all, I have done alot of hybridizing though most crosses I have made are not fertile, still, I think I have it figured out. The traits of leaf shape are not strict Mendelian traits as flower color often is, and so you do not see predictable dominant and recessive segregation ratios. I guess this is because the traits of leaf shape are the expression of multiple genes. Mendelian traits are single gene. Crosses I have made in some South African sundews (which proved to be fertile) and also with my fertile polyploid D. x nagamotoi, I saw variation which might be of the same pattern as with the petiolaris complex hybrids. In the first generation most of the hybrids were about equally intermediate between the two parent species. The second generation selfed offspring were much like their parent though some varied a bit to appear like one or the other parent species. Following generations when selected for a specific appearance became less and less varied. My D. x nagamotoi now in its fifth generation seems to have stabilized. Above I said that the hybrids are about equally intermediate. This means that an averaging formula can be used to predict what most of the hybrids will look like. Take for example my D. dielsiana X D. nidiformis. The D. nidiformis parent has longer more slender leaves than D. dielsiana. The average of leaf length and width can be found this way. Measure the lengths and add them together and then divid them by 2: L1 + L2 / 2 = L3. The length L3 is the hybrid, simple:-) On this note, Petiolaris Sean's computer is still down. BTW, Sean does know the correct spelling of D. derbyensis and also I'm sure he realizes this plant originated in Derby, NT Australia. I'm on to him, ...he uses these tricks to test our humour. Sorry to let the cat out of the bag:-) Ivan the "Professor" Hermosa Beach California ################### From: JDPDX@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:06:08 EST Subject: Re: Bubble Wrap << At this cost, you can buy new bubble wrap every year. >> Charleys Greenhouse (www.charleysgreenhouse.com) out of Mt. Vernon, Washington sells a UV resistant bubblewrap if you don't want to replace it every year. Jeff Portland, OR ################### From: wouter Noordeloos Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:18:26 +0100 Subject: Duncraig hi CP-ers, Here Wouter Noordeloos from Carnivora, Holland. I ordered 5 books from Allen Lowrie vol. 3. I need to know where Duncraig is laying about. I need this, because my postoffice is sendind the money for the order to the nearest postoffice from Duncraig. Can anyone tell me, please? Thanx and take care, Wouter ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:46:40 +1100 Subject: D. sessiliflora??? and aquatic Utrics. Hi all I ahve a plant named D. sessiliflora and as far as I know this thing does not exist or does it?? It is a rosetted species simmilar to D. aliciae. Any ideas? I think it was Barry who said that it is better to keep a plant with the wrong spelling rather than change it and lose track of where it came from (or something like that) One more while I'm here. I've noticed free floating aquatic Utrics eg. gibba, australis, vulgaris catching mosquito larvae by the head! They get stuck half in, half out of the trap. I've not had the patience to sit and watch to see what happens. Can anyone fill me in please. Thanks Greg ################### From: "Steve Alton" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:21:42 -0000 Subject: Numbering - seed collections Dear Paul and All, > Ugh! You are stretching my knowledge to breaking point and I hope a > professional taxonomist with field collection experience will step in any > answer the question (hint hint)! Well, I'm not a taxonomist, but I am a seed collector, so here goes... Usual practice is to select a large population of a single species and to collect 'randomly and evenly' (this is actually a contradiction, but never mind) across the whole of that population, in order to pick up any genetic variation at that site. In the case of extremely rare species, seed from individual plants is bagged separately, to preserve individual gene-lines, but generally seed from a single species/site will be lumped. Each seed collection (at the Millennium Seed Bank, at any rate) will then be assigned a unique accession number on our database, which refers to that collection and its accompanying field data. So, one accession = one species from a named site, collected on a specified date, by a named collector. If seed from individual plants is collected separately (see above) all the seed-lots will be given the same accession number, but will be stored as separate lots, ie. never lumped together. Hope this helps, Steve MILLENNIUM SEED BANK Project Steve Alton B.Sc. Seed Donations Officer Seed Conservation Department Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew Wakehurst Place, Ardingly, Haywards Heath West Sussex RH17 6TN, UK Tel direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894119 Fax direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894110 Email: s.alton@rbgkew.org.uk http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/seedbank/msb.html ################### From: Vitor Fernandes Oliveira de Miranda Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:16:40 -0200 Subject: more about collection numbers... First of all I'd like to congratulate for all of you that has discussing about this so important subject, a way of improve and organize the so confuse cp lists (sorry, with no offenses, I regard here my cp collection list as well, it is not hard I loose myself in it... ;-) ). Congratulations for you Paul for beginnig this so important discussion. It has a lot of time I do not see a so flamed discussion! I numbering system may improve a lot our cp collections. Not only by scientific point of view, but to growers that regard the collection as a hobby, otherwise it was said. Nigel wrote: > The downside to collection numbers is that they are like 'location > names', some people feel obliged to collect them all. And then they > have to buy the book that translates the numbers into field locations. > Of course, in an ideal world, every plant would come with its complete > genome mapping, but that might be a bit long to write on a label! Ok, Nigel, I think I understood your point of view. But, I think we have to regard ALL information about our "red rosette things" (I am sorry, could not avoid the joke, but I'd never seen a so negligible definition... :)) ). Any kind of information can be useful, mainly if the plants are beeing used to studies. Regarding your comment about buing the book that translates the numbers into your means (field locations, collectors, collection date, etc...), a way to avoid it may be publishing the original numbers list on internet, who knows at ICPS site or even at CP Database site (what's your opinion Jan? ). So, all people could have access to the list, and, what I regard very important, a "universal" list. The point is everybody should follow the same list, this is very important. I've had some problems in my collections. I've received some seeds with no locations. I have used them to my study, but I know I will face problems in future. I try to choose that ones with the maximum of informations, but sometimes the only information is the species name, sometimes misspelled... Well, I agree Jan, it may happen with all us, besides you Fernando! :-) :-) A important point is a numbering system could be the chance for the plants be used to genetic studies. For instance, _Drosera brevifolia_ from North America, definitely, is not the same _Drosera brevifolia_ that occurs on Brazil's fields. Two populations of a same species separated by even few kilometers may be very different genetically. To people that consider the possibility of a more serious organization of our collections could loose the "fun side" of having a collection, I don't think it's the case. A more organized system does not mean a more complicated one. Otherwise it could facilitate our lives, tracking a mis-ID species that we may have in our collection, even after a long time. So, as it was already commented, that number (that species) will be avoided for all us after the notice. Well, just some ideas. All of us will gain with the benifits of a numbering system, no doubts. I think we have to discuss about it a lot yet. All the best Vitor. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Steve Gordon" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:39:58 -0000 Subject: Re: Capensis 'Alba' >Oh no they don't! I say again, how can anyonme understand what is undefined? >There is no published definition for what is meant by D. capensis 'Alba'. If there >was, it would be an established name. As it is not published, be definition no-one >has ever described what is meant by it. So anyone can assume they know >what is meant, but no-one, not even a single person, actually knows what is meant >by D. capensis 'Alba' Hi Paul. Does Marston Exotics 'Catalogue and Growers Guide' qualify :-) I quote: 'Drosera capensis 'Alba'. A new introduction found in a batch of seedlings at Marston in 1990. Vigorous grower with striking pale leaves and white flowers in profusion' http://www.steve-gordon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DA.htm Paul Gardener told me he 'found' the above-mentioned plant, and sold it as such. If he failed to take it any further than this, perhaps that is where the confusion arose. Cheers. Steve. UK. ################### From: john green Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:37:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Capensis 'Alba' >>Oh no they don't! I say again, how can anyonme understand >>what is undefined? There is no published definition for what >>is meant by D. capensis 'Alba'. If there was, it would be an >>established name. As it is not published, be definition no- >>one has ever described what is meant by it. > > Does Marston Exotics 'Catalogue and Growers Guide' qualify > :-) I quote: 'Drosera capensis 'Alba'. A new > introduction found in a batch of seedlings at Marston in > 1990. Vigorous grower with > striking pale leaves and white flowers in profusion' > http://www.steve-gordon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DA.htm I've already passed this information on to Barry but it is published in "The Savage Garden" on pages 128 and 129 as D. capensis "Alba" (with double "quotes"). There is some question as to whether it is listed as a form or a variety, but I guess Jan Schlauer will sort it out. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah, USA http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: "John Phillip Jr." Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 04:50:34 -0500 Subject: where is the listeserve?? hello! I haven't gotten a listserve post sent to me since Sunday is something wrong?:? John Phillip, Jr ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:59:30 +0000 Subject: And still more Re Numbering > > I understand the white-flowered form of capensis was described in the > > British journal many years ago, and the 'Alba' designation is not > > valid (although everyone understands it). > > Oh no they don't! I say again, how can anyonme understand what is undefined? There is no published definition for what is meant by D. capensis 'Alba'. If there was, it would be an established name. As it is not published, be definition no-one has ever described what is meant by it. So anyone can assume they know > what is meant, but no-one, not even a single person, actually knows what is meant by D. capensis 'Alba' unless they personally attach the name to a plant that arrives without such a name. And if they do attach the name themselves, they can not possibly be doing so based on another plant they know of called D. capensis > 'Alba' because they can not know what features that other plant has that are specifically identified by the unestablished name of D. capensis 'Alba'. (Sorry Nigel - not having a go at you - you know me enough to know that.) My mistake - others have also pointed out the same. I hope I have journals back that far. Recently I've received two batches of pygmy drosera gemmae which have turned out to be mixtures - D androsacea plus a few, far more vigorous D paleacea, and D echinoblastus, large-flowered, which included one plant (sadly deceased) with white flowers. I guess I ought to give each gemma an individual accession number. Ouch! Regards, NigelH ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:07:12 +0000 Subject: re: Drosera F2 Hybrids > The D. nidiformis parent has longer more slender leaves than D. > dielsiana. The average of leaf length and width can be found this way. > Measure the lengths and add them together and then divid them by 2: L1 > + L2 / 2 = L3. The length L3 is the hybrid, simple:-) I'm quibbling about a millimetre or two here, but it seems to me easier for a large plant to lose a certain length from its leaves than it is for a small plant to gain the same length. Is it possible that where inheritance is Mendelian, the offspring has average leaf length based on the geometric mean of its parents? (If this is basic biology and I ought to know better, don't hesitate to tell me). NigelH ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:14:36 +1100 Subject: Re: D. sessiliflora??? and aquatic Utrics. Greg, I've heard of D. sessilifolia, which is supposed to be a synonym of D. burmannii. Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: "R B" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:39:36 -0800 Subject: Looking for Lowrie's book - volume 1 I know this is a longshot, but I thought I would give it a try. Does any have Lowrie's book "Carnivorous Plants of Australia, Vol 1" available for sale? I have volumes 2 and 3, and want to complete the set. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:59:55 EST Subject: Re: D. sessiliflora??? and aquatic Utrics. Hi All, Yes, the old D. aliciae instead of D. sessilifolia trick. I had some of that once. I figured it out after having it three years that it could not possibly be real thing. For some reason, this is the most popular seed to be mislabled as such. D. sessilifolia( I am responding from work, so if I mispell it, forgive me) is an annual from South America and looks rather similar ro D. burmanii and there has even been a cross of the two made by Ivan Snyder, I believe. They are very closely related, but I have not heard of them being synanomous. As far as Utricularia and large prey, I think I have read that the bladder will keep digesting and sucking the larva in until it's consumed(or will attempt to, at least). Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Fernando Rivadavia Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:03:35 -0200 (BRST) Subject: F2, F3, etc. Drosera hybrids Hello Ivan! >I have done alot of hybridizing though most crosses I have made are not >fertile, still, I think I have it figured out. The traits of leaf shape >are not strict Mendelian traits as flower color often is, and so you do >not see predictable dominant and recessive segregation ratios. I guess >this is because the traits of leaf shape are the expression of multiple >genes. Mendelian traits are single gene. I'm sure it's not a simple mendellian cross with one gene involved. Just as it's most likely not simple eithr with Sarracenia or Neps. Yet it seems to me that we see more variability and wider distribution of characters in F2 crosses of Neps and Sarras than in Drosera. Don't you agree?? That's why I suggested that maybe tetraploidy in the African species was helping to "mask" or even out this distribution of characters. And that's why I asked about petiolaris complex F", F3, and so on hybrids, because of their strange chromosome numbers. Any more input on the latter??? Fernando Rivadavia ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:12:21 -0500 Subject: subscribe Michael Manna




Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

################### From: "philmann" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:52:04 +0800 Subject: Aldrovanda, a new site. Greetings. For those of you who (foolishly) don't subscribe to the ACPS, I would like to share with you the great news that Robert Gibson in his diligent wanderings through the CP world has discovered Aldrovanda growing on the South Coast here in Western Australia. This plant appears to be very similar in the Australian form attaining a wonderful red colour. This site puts it some 2,000kms south of the other known Western Australian location. I put some pieces in the pond of the Nepenthes house and these promptly disappeared. The remainder I placed in one of my tropical aquariums and in a couple of months it has multiped ten fold, but lacks the red colour. Well done Robert. The CP world needs more of your expertise applied here. Cheers Phill Mann Harvey W.A. ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:58:18 +0000 Subject: numbers and alba Dear Vitor >(...), a way to avoid it may be publishing the original > numbers list on internet, who knows at ICPS site or even at CP > Database site (what's your opinion Jan? ). There is, as far as I understand the ongoing discussion correctly, no defined set of data that should "at least" be linked to collection numbers. This makes identification of the taxa corresponding to collection numbers impossible once the plants are no longer available (things that may happen in cultivation!). If collection numbers were backed up by e.g. herbarium specimens, there might be a way to link them with taxonomic data as listed in the cp db. Anyway, this would be an enormous task, and I have other interests at the moment, viz. providing a mapping function with the database browser and including systematic information for more sophisticated searches and statistics. Dear Steve, > Does Marston Exotics 'Catalogue and Growers Guide' qualify :-) Was it ever published? I do not know this guide. > I quote: > 'Drosera capensis 'Alba'. A new > introduction found in a batch of seedlings at Marston in 1990. Vigorous > grower with > striking pale leaves and white flowers in profusion' > http://www.steve-gordon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DA.htm > Paul Gardener told me he 'found' the above-mentioned plant, and sold it as > such. If he failed to take it any further than this, perhaps that is where > the confusion arose. Certainly. Anyway, a complicated case. I have seen the epithet "alba" first in Peter D'Amato's book. But it seems he has only cited Paul Gardner. In its Latin form, "Alba" is clearly inappropriate for a cultivar epithet (which must be from a modern language). Additionally, it would probably be difficult to distinguish such plants from the described cultivar _Drosera_ ' Albino '. Anyway, it is (without a typification and without a Latin description) only a nomen nudum without any nomenclatural meaning. Dear John, > I've already passed this information on to Barry but it is published in "The > Savage Garden" on pages 128 and 129 as D. capensis "Alba" (with double > "quotes"). There is some question as to whether it is listed as a form or a > variety, but I guess Jan Schlauer will sort it out. Because of its Latin origin, it is not a cultivar name (the quotes are immaterial). It is a nomen nudum (i.e. its rank is undefined, anyway). If the rank is not noted in the original publication, such combinations are usually interpreted (at least in the cp db) as varieties. Kind regards Jan ################### From: chamb@u.arizona.edu Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:37:54 Subject: Re: more about collection numbers... I've been watching the thread on collection numbers, and noticed that cacti people were cited as having a good number system. since I'm more of a cactus person than a cp person anyway, I feel some obligation to introduce you all to some resources available for cactus collection numbers (if you're really that interested :-) This is a web page for one of the cactus & succulent nurseries that sells a lot of seed and plants with collection numbers and locality info. See: http://www.mesagarden.com/ra2001.html Scroll down to "Copiapoa". Numbers on the left are assigned by the nursery and could be considered their own accession numbers. I don't think cactus collectors prize these numbers, undoubtedly some do record them. But see those KK numbers, like KK1386? Those are the numbers that cactus collectors covet. What do these numbers mean? Go to this site: http://ralph.cs.cf.ac.uk/cacti/collector.html This is a web site for collector acronyms. Enter KK and it tells you this is Karel Knize, of the Czech Republic, resident in Lima, Peru. Some early collections were made under KZ numbers, but these are independent and do not coincide with the later KK numbers. Knize has produced two official indexes of his numbers. The 1967-1977 one covers the numbers KK 1 - KK 1471; the later 1967-1987 index covers KK 1 - KK 2000. These lists do not always agree entirely. Most collectors do not have such detailed info, but Knize was one of the most prolific collectors. Now try: http://ralph.cs.cf.ac.uk:591/fieldno.html This is a web site for locality data. Try KK1386. Your results: Field number: KK1386 Collector: Karel Knize Species: Copiapoa sp. Locality: El Tigrillo, Chile 100-400m Notes: (C. coquimbana v. deminuta n. n. in 1977 list) You get back some locality info and also an annotation of the current identification of this plant originally listed as a "sp.". Again, this level of information is not present for all collectors, but special attention has been paid to Knize. This locality information was previously found only in some very obscure cactus publications (ie. "The Chileans"), or on some lists with limited circulation. A few dedicated cactus enthusiasts compiled this info and made it available on the web, so you can get this data for that plant you have with the mysterious KK1386 number on the label. As a caveat, I must point out that there is no guarantee about the pedigree of your plants, which have been maintained and seed propagated in cultivation for several decades now. You may collect seed from your KK1386 Copiapoa, but what plant was the father of that seed? How careful was the last grower? (cacti are mostly obligate outcrossers). Interestingly, there are few cultivars in the cactus hobby (outside of the epiphytic cacti), and in practical use the plants bearing these collection numbers are treated as cultivars. Michael Chamberland ################### From: Rollins Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:42:13 -0500 Subject: Sarracenia seed dispersal Does anyone know how the seed of Sarracenia are dispersed in the wild? They aren't wind blown so there must be some sort of animal vector. Hope someone knows. Thanks, James A. Rollins [mailto:willows@rose.net] ################### From: Randall Palmer Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:20:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: About the number thing 10 could be Venus, 20 could be trumphet, 30 could be picture. A cross between trumphet and picture could be 250. Cousin Clem ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:27:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chris Breckpot Hey folks, Does anyone have an email address for Chris Breckpot? The one that I have, chris.breckpot@olvz.aalst.be is dead. Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:42:29 -0000 Subject: Re: D capensis "Alba" No numbers here! Just to acknowledge the replies following my being asked if Marston's catalogue mention of the name counts as establishing the name. As someone answered, I'd prefer to leave that decision to Jan who is the (undisputed?) expert. I don't track cultivar publication and relied on someone else's statement that D. capensis "Alba" had not been established as a name. Now that Jan has no doubt seen the references, I'm sure he'll update the database if required. As a separate point of personal interest - I'm not actually sure what to expect if a cultivar name is "published" but is not considerd established, for example because the name already exists in that genus or because insufficient description is given to allow association of the name with some known appearance or because the description given in no way allows the cultivar to be distinguished from another previously described cultivar. Is the name ignored? Is it recorded as an equivalent of an invlaid name? Is such a name barred from future use as it's use has been inappropriate? Beats me! As to me and naming, I'm dead careful ever since I foolishly believed a list (Harald Weiner's catalogue) that called a plant he was introducing to cultivation Pinguicula alfredae. The plant is of course P. heterophylla and publication ofa species name in a list is not valid so doesn't count (unlike cultivars). Since I published the P. alfedae species name in a book, I of course get credited with making the first formal publication of the name, and i therefore get credited with making the error!!! May the next plant name I mention be more rigorously researched before I publish!!! Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:48:14 +0000 Subject: Re: Sarracenia seed dispersal James, > >Does anyone know how the seed of Sarracenia are dispersed in the wild? >They aren't wind blown so there must be some sort of animal vector. >Hope someone knows. Thanks, >James A. Rollins > There was someone doing research on this subject in Canada but I can't remember his name and I've no idea if he eventually published any results. Not a great deal of use I'm afraid but one of his and my thoughts was that one means of seed dispersal is during periods of flooding - Sarracenia seed floats of course. Seed in habitat that is liable to flood will likely be dispersed while the area is in flood, the seed being deposited when the waters recede. This means of seed dispersal would not surprise me at all, at least in the northern bogs, which are very prone to this type of flooding. There are weaknesses in this idea though. For a start there are many sites in the south that are probably far less likely to flood, though having never visited any of them in the winter this may be an incorrect assumption. Also, the flood dispersal argument does not explain the wider range of Sarracenia species, with pockets of habitat surrounded by areas of unsuitable land. Probably there is some sort of animal or bird involvement in the seed dispersal as well. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:07:31 +1100 Subject: Re: D. sessiliflora Sorry Miguel and Joe, you said D. sessilifolia but I was asking about sessiliflora. The plant I have is not sessilifolia. It is not an annual that's for sure. I think I'd better leave it until I get a web page up and running so I can show you photos. Thanks anyway. Thanks for the info on the Utric. Joe. Greg ################### From: Akerne Orchids Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 17:55:35 +0100 Subject: Re: And still more Re Numbering I'll just add a bit more to the numbering discussion form a horticultural point of view albeit not in CP's, but orchids... As the orchid collection of my parents grew and grew over the years and with the start of our own propagation laboratory we needed to change our way of dealing with our plants. Just as a sidenote: 99.9% all crosses that we make our between plants of the same species. The early crosses when I stepped in as "bumblebee of the greenhouse" were simply recorded using whichever indication that we had available: country of origin, flower colour, position in the greenhouse, ... e.g. "species x" (dark) x "species x" (big flower) "species y" (cool house) x "species y" (intermediate house) "species z" -Honduras- x "species z" -Mexico- I'm sure you can spot some problems with these indications. - we received another dark flowered "species x" - we have multiple clones of "species y" in the cool house - we have multiple clones of "species z" from Mexico So we needed a better solution ! 1st try -> lets number each clone within a specific genus/species combination sequentially. e.g. "species x" (1), "species x" (2), "species x" (3) Problems with this approach: the biggest problem is very simple, after flowering the "species x" (2) is no longer "species x" but "species a". So you cannot trace the complete history of your plant throughout the years, unless you copy/paste all relevant data and keep track of each and every change -> at that point your plant has multiple IDs, which is not good at all. 2nd try (and this is where we are know) -> number each clone and give it a unique sequential number. This number is simply composed of the following: "letter indication" + a seperation dash + "a 5 digit number". e.g. [AO-01000] [AO-05426] [AO-08912] This approach allows us to track down a plant throughout the collection without problems (only collection plants are numbered of course). The [AO-01000] will tell you nothing about the genus/species it belongs to (as misidentifications happen), but it allows you to trace all information belonging to that plant and only THAT plant. What does the "silly" letter combination stand for ? AO = Akerne Orchids Why the need for a 5 digit number ? When we started registering the collection in this way, we figured we had some 8000 plants/clones so it was not unlikely that in a few years time we would cross the 10000 mark. 99999 on the other hand is something that we will never reach (unless we expand enormously... who knows ?) The dash in between is just for easy reading. Basic rules: - no number is ever re-used even if the clone is question dies (very important !) - use a fixed length numbering system. if a friend comes round and says that his [AO-168] has flowered and that it was not correct, then we can tell him that his reference is not correct... It should be something like [AO-99999]. Advantages: - when you exchange divisions of a specific clone, your friends can always trace it back to you because it is numbered - because the numer is unique, we are always talking about the same clone Disdvantages: - no direct link to the genus/species combination in question, but for orchids this is not bad, even an advantage: today its an Oncidium something, tomorrow we should call it Psygmorchis something else, and so on. I don't know about other plant families, but some orchids have a habit of changing names every now and then. Why not tiered (like 10000 -> 19999, 20000 -> 29999, ...) ? - a plant number 10000 al of a sudden turns out to belong to the 20000+ range. This problem is less likely to happen within the CP area, a Drosera is quite distinct from a Sarracenia, but other plant families are not always that clearly distinguished. From time to time unidentified species will enter our collection. All we know at that point is that it is "an orchid". Defining the genus is often troublesome with some 30000+ species around. - some genera are monotypic, but then again a new species for that genus maybe still be discovered... > Is there a system for > numbering collected seeds from a wild population when the seed from a > population are mixed. I liked Pauls explanation, especially the part about collecting seedpods from several clones. My views exactly, seed from one clone should be kept seperate from seed from a second clone. Are you sure that the pollinating insect made the reverse cross ? like in A x B and B x A, or was it so "dumb" as to create A x B and B x C... When we collect seedpods, all seedpods from the same clone are treated as the same seedbatch. Yes, we are not sure that every pod was pollinated using the same parent ! But that is, for us, an acceptable risk, since pollinators of orchids are in most cases quite specific insects, even within the same genus ! To get back to numbering. Well, this (for seedpods) is a different numbering system ! Why ? The numbering system explained above is used to identify specific clones (my dark flowered clone of "species x", my Mexican "species z"). The outcome of the seedpod in question is variable, so the designation of the seedpod number does not work since seedling A can be quite different from seedling B. In our laboratory a second numbering system is used, this time based on the abbreviated genus in question (seedpods from unidentified species get "SP" (= species) as abbreviation). When a seedling from that batch is selected for the private collection, then it is registered and the reference to the seedling batch is entered in the record. e.g. Paphiopedilum crosses -> PAPH001, PAPH002 Stanhopea crosses -> STAN001, STAN002 (only 3 digits as we will not attempt to make more than 999 pollinations within the same genus, so far so good) regards, Kenneth ______________________________________________________________________ Akerne Orchids-------------------------------- Tel.-- : Int'l + 32-(0)3-651.40.36 Laarsebeekdreef 4-------------------------- Fax---- : Int'l + 32-(0)3-653.06.76 B-2900 Schoten-------------------------------- E-mail: info@akerne-orchids.com Belgium---------------------------------------------- WWW---- : http://www.akerne-orchids.com ______________________________________________________________________ Orchid related questions ? Check out the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) on our second web site at http://www.orchidguide.com ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:10:59 -0800 Subject: Re: Drosera F1, F2 Hybrids >Is it possible that where inheritance is Mendelian, the offspring has average leaf length based on the geometric mean of its parents? (If this is basic biology and I ought to know better, don't hesitate to tell me). NigelH >I'm sure it's not a simple mendellian cross with one gene involved. Just as it's most likely not simple eithr with Sarracenia or Neps. Yet it seems to me that we see more variability and wider distribution of characters in F2 crosses of Neps and Sarras than in Drosera. Don't you agree?? That's why I suggested that maybe tetraploidy in the African species was helping to "mask" or even out this distribution of characters. And that's why I asked about petiolaris complex F", F3, and so on hybrids, because of their strange chromosome numbers. Any more input on the latter??? Fernando Rivadavia As I first said, leaf shape as seen in the hybrids I have made does not seem to follow what is termed Mendel's first law or the principle of segregation. Also the hybrids do not show what is termed incomplete dominance (this deals with one gene also) because in the F2 generation there are not once again individuals the same as either parent. Another Mendelian principle is termed independant assortment (this deals with more than one gene). But the hybrids don't seem to fit this well either because of intermediate characters, ...blah, blah, blah. Nevermind terminology, this is not what you were asking for anyway. I do agree with what you said above and have heard that most of the variation seen in the Sarracenia hybrids appears in the F2 generation. Petiolaris Sean is expected to soon be back online with his computer. Maybe he can tell us more. He does have second and third generation petiolaris complex hybrids. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:08:25 -0800 Subject: Re: D. sessilifolia >D. sessilifolia( I am responding from work, so if I mispell it, forgive me) is an annual from South America and looks rather similar ro D. burmanii and there has even been a cross of the two made by Ivan Snyder, I believe. They are very closely related, but I have not heard of them being synanomous. Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA Hi again CPers, Yes, you are correct Joe, I did cross them. These two species produce a fertile hybrid but will not cross with any other Drosera species. D. burmannii and D. sessilifolia are of the only members of the generic subsection Thelocalyx. Last year I got seed of a form of D. burmannii from Robert Gibson in Australia which he calls Pillaga Red. This form looked identical to the plant of D. sessilifolia Fernando sent me from Brazil. Still, both species names are legitimate. There is a funny story about the first burmannii/sessilifolia mixup. I wrote an article titled Relating D. burmanni and D. sessilifolia in the Oct. 1994 Flytrap News. The then president of the NSW Australia newsletter Dennis Daley came up with a theory that D. burmannii had been brought to S. America by Australian colonists. Fernando informed Mr. Daley that D. sessilifolia had been discribed and reported widespread in 1824 previous to the New Australians. In defense of Mr. Daley's theory I pointed out in personal correspondance to Fernando that D. burmannii could have been spread to S. America by Early Viking Botanists circa 1100 A.D.:-) Moral of the story; --There seems to be a prevalent notion that anything spread by birds is perceived as natural, while anything spread by Man is unnatural. Here is the spinoff of that: If we could show that D. burmannii was spread to S. America by Man, then we would all quickly agree that the name D. sessilifolia should not be. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 20:23:39 -0500 Subject: New member and a Hello everyone. My name is Michael Manna, I live in Delray Beach, FL, I just joined this group(finally) and I was told to say, and this is very difficult being my 1st meeting and all, I am a carnivorous plant enthusiast. There, I admitted it, I said it!, I feel better. Now for the rest of the steps. My parents would be proud! I hope you all laughed. And I didn't mean to insult anyone. Anyway, I just followed the instructions on the listserve. I was always intrigued and was 1st introduced to a N x ventrata, yrs ago and got hooked. It's like drugs, man. Yoooouu haaavvvee toooo saaaayyy noooo. That's where all my pot money went! I swear mom, I'm not spending it on drugs! I'm back in CP's after a several yr absence. I used to just grow local FL stuff but with an older wiser me( a B.S.) AND computers, I have been amazed with the amount of diversity abroad. I grow, a small amount of common stuff. I'll abbreviate for convenience N. amp, alata, albo, merill, sanguin, khas, bical, raff, trunc, mad, x ventrata, vent, gracilis, eustachya, mirab, mir v. echino, x coccinea,and other hybrids. P. lutea, pumila, morensis, planifolia. Sarr. purp, pssit, leuco. B. liniflora, filifolia. Utr. sander, livida, pusilla? D. capensis, capillaris, adelae, prolifera, peltata, multifida, 'extrema', intermedia, madagas?, burmanni. Dionea mus. red drag and regular var. heterophylla?. I am looking to expand my collection into more pings, drosera, utrics and other genera. Most of my stuff is small, but i will be giving away seed to less fortunate as soon as i get some. I also grow orchids, and go birding, and go to sessions for those obsessions too. I am glad and proud to converse with others of such good addictions, I love these plants, that's why I can't get a girl. Just kidding, she hasn't left me yet. But then she hasn't seen the greenhouse plans!!! Just imagine it! Sincerely Michael Manna _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: "Steve Gordon" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:02:30 -0000 Subject: Re: numbers and alba >> Does Marston Exotics 'Catalogue and Growers Guide' qualify :-) >Was it ever published? I do not know this guide. Hello Jan, well published in so much as it was printed and issued for sale: cannot give you any ISBN or a reference as there is none. Its a 40-page booklet. I've put a scan of the front cover here for you: http://www.steve-gordon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DA.htm Thanks for the rest of your explanation: I did not actually expect it to be taken as a valid description, but if you wish I'll send the copy I have. Best wishes. Steve, UK. ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:22:10 -0500 Subject: Trinidad CPs? Does anyone know what grows in trinidad? Drosera, Pings, Genlisea. I am going on a research study there and would like to bring back some seed. Thanks Michael _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:03:12 -0000 Subject: Re: Numbering, KK1386, etc. Hi Kenneth - long time no hear! I thought your explanation of accession numbering used at Akerne Irchids was great; a timely piece following a lot of explanation showing exactly how a numbering system is used within te world of orchids. This is especially useful as I dobt any plant group can claim to give rise to the complexities originating within orchid collecting and hybridising. Some commnet from me on the system used, but not aimed at akerne Orchids - it's aimed at those who wish to start numbering. There are probably an infinite number of templates you can select for an accession number. The simplest is a plain number sequence, 1,2,3,4, etc. Next would be the same sequence but with a fixed length and zero filled. An example of such a sequence of a length of 5 digits would be 00001, 00002, 00003, 00004, etc.. Beyond those two you can add anything you like, but why would you. Well, without any exceptions that I know of (repeat, that I know of), there are two reasons. The first is that you are such an intrepid collector that you run out of numbers, i.e. in a fixed length example such as te one above, you reach the end of available numbers (e.g. 99999). To increase available numbers, you would then start a new sequence that began with a new sequence number. For ease of reading you might also add another character, such as a slash or hyphen. Thus you could create 1-00001, 1-00002, 1-00003, 1-00004, etc, or something similar. Note that in the three sequences I've shown, you cannot determine any information at all from the actual content of the number. No part of the number has any meaning other than to make the number unique allowing you to use it to referenece a single plant specimen or goup of specimens that have the same origin and represent the same plant type. Therefore, the other reason to add additional data to any plain number sequence is to add information to the sequence. Examples (taken from things i've seen) would be as follows: AO-01000 where AO represents Akerne Orchids (so you could replace with other "owner") date-01234 where the date can represent when the plant joined the collection or anything else you want it to collect coll-01234 where "coll" is another number that represents a filed trip loc-12345 where "loc" is another number that represents where the plant is physically located in the location hybrid numbers such as AO-date-coll-loc-01000 where lots of meaning is captured within the accession number. Now again, I emphasise, I am not criticising any existing method used to number a collection, especally not that of the zoo (see earlier discussion) or Akerne Orchids. However, the inclusion of any data within the accession number (or within a Collector's Number) is unnecesary and simply adds effort to that equired to maintain the numbering system. It can make the numbers attractive but otherwise serves no real purpose. Why? Well lets consider two alternatives in how you keep records (and I can't think of more than two!). These are: 1. you keep paper records 2. you keep electronic records (word processed, spreadsheet, database, etc.) I'll start with paper records. In paper records, the numbers can not be sorted on command into separate groups. Each record stays where you write it forever. So the number can't be used as an aid to create some sort of list. If you are keeping like numbers in separate parts of your paper system, since you have to know which plant belongs in which list before you give it a number, you can add it to the correct list and give it a plain number that is the next available in a plain number sequence. The extra meaning in the numbr is unnecessary. The record pointed to by the number can give all the appropriate data such as dates, collector's names and numbers, locations, etc, etc, etc. There is no data that you can add to the number that can not be recorded in the record. No data added to the number should be ommitted from the record pointed to. So why write it twice?!!! As to electronic records, the same points all apply except one. In electronic records, the accession number can be used to sort a list automatically using the intelligence of the computer system. With plain text documents created in a wod processoir (Lotus Notes, Microsft Word, etc.) you could just argue that this was a benefit but only if using pure text without tables. If using text in tabular form or if using spreadsheets or a database system (e.g. Microsoft Access), hen once again the additional information becomes repeated data entry and serves no purpose. You can sort abased on columns or fields in all these solutions so it is easy to record each piece of data separately, without incorporating one piece of data (say a date) into another - such as the Accession Number. You can then sort on one or multiple fields to create the required lists - effectively sub-categories or sub-collections. This does not, of course, get away from the charm of accession or collector's numbers that comprise letters, numbers and maybe even special characters (hyphens, slashes, asterisks, etc.). But I say again, for those of you starting such a numbering system, there is no need to introduce anything more complicated than a plain number sequence where the next plant you number is simply given the next unused number in the sequence. On a separate note, regarding the central recording of accession numbers, this is not normal practice and is as far aas I can see unmaintainable. Jan just answered this by saying he couldn't link his database to plant identities where the plant had disappeared from cultivation. In addition, to do so would try to wor the system backwards. The numbering system is generally employed to trace a plant's origins, assuming you actually have the plant already. In such a case, if you recorded the number (and where yo got it from) and if each person before you did the same, you can trace the plant back to it's origin without the aid of a central database. Even if someone fails to record their details, you may be able to jump that person's data gap by tracking the origins of other plants, if they have a collector's number (on;y or plants that originated from a wild collection). >But see those KK numbers, like KK1386? Those are the numbers that >cactus collectors covet. > What do these numbers mean? It's not clear but the way the list is written one would expect these to be Collector's Numbers which are very valuable (scientifically) as they point to a plant whose origin's can be traced back to a collection made at a particular time, date and place in the wild, and indeed to a specific collector (which can increase the trustworthynes of the collected material nad the collection data). Based on the other database that identifes KK as being Karel Knize, of the Czech Republic, this increases the likely hoodthat the number is a Collector's Number. It is not uncommon for collectors to preface their numbers with their initials or some other acronym representing themselves (though this is not necessarily helpful as duplicate acronyms can arise unless a central datbase records and controls them!). Michael makes a good point. Just because you get (buy?) a plant with a number, it doesn't mean the reference is correct!!! You have to know the supplier for one. Second, you really should try to identify the plant to see if it matches what the numbers suggest. But don't worry. If you collect for fun and can't be bothered with all that identification, you can just record the data. It will never reduce the value of your plants but it can increase their value. >10 could be Venus, 20 could be trumphet, 30 could be picture. >A cross between trumphet and picture could be 250. As I've said, you can do this sort of thing. But I advise all satarters, again, the more meaning you give to a number, the more hard work you create for yourself. Let me put it another way - WARNING, do not assign meaning to accession numbers or consituent parts of them. Maintain a simple sequential number series. Regards Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:07:29 -0000 Subject: Re: Sarracenia dispersal I'm no expert either on dispersal or Sarras (so why are you still reading this!) but I just thought I'd drop in the suggestion that hurricanes are a significant dispersal mechanism in the tropics though probably not the major one for sarras. Unrelated to the question, but spin off from it, in my view it's a fair bet that some of the Caribbean Pinguicula arrived in the islands on hurricanes, probably on those rare ones that originate south and blow up from Mexico to the islands. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: psher001@odu.edu Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 12:31:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia seed dispersal Hi Folks: Please note we have an abstract about a study we did on S. flava seed dispersal and dissemination in Virginia. Go to the RESEARCH section of our web page at www.pitcherplant.org and look under Abstracts. In short, water is the main agent for dispersal locally. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station ################### From: "R B" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:12:50 -0800 Subject: Best way to acclimate plant from Southern Hemisphere? What's the best way to acclimate a plant grown in the southern hemisphere to adjust itself to the growing seasons in the northern hemisphere? Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:07:24 EST Subject: seeking U. humboldtii Hi everyone, I'm looking to buy an established Utricularia humboldtii to add to the collection at the UCBG in Berkeley. Anyone in the U.S. who might have a plant or plants of this to sell please contact me at davidogray@aol.com Incedentally, I've developed a peek-a-boo pot to aid in the demonstration of the traps without disturbing the plant - it involves a glass flower pot fitted with an internal grid, all set into a clay flower pot. Visitors will be able to see it on display in the next few weeks. Cheers, David San Francisco, where is cloudy, foggy, calm and 55 deg. F. ( 13 C. ) ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:17:26 +0000 Subject: names Dear Paul, > As a separate point of personal interest - I'm not actually sure what to expect if a cultivar name is > "published" but is not considerd established, Several different cases here: > for example because the name already exists in that genus Such things are called homonyms. If the plant is different (from the plant that was first described with the same name) and if its description was published together with the name, the ICRA (registration authority) would inform the author that the name he used is a homonym. Prior to registration, the ICRA would ask the registrant to choose another name. Registration would be effected for the new name, and the later homonym would be listed in the International Register together with a note leading to the registered new name. Creating homonyms can be avoided whatsoever by publishing the description in CPN, because this is the Journal of the cp ICRA, and its editors do check all submissions against the cp database (which includes the International Register of cp cultivar names) prior to publication. > or because insufficient description is given to allow association of > the name with some known appearance Any text written by the describing author should *in the author's opinion* distinguish the new cultivar from all cultivars described before. The important point here is the author's opinion, if this is satisfied (and if the description is *published*), the new name is established (but not yet registered!). The cp ICRA requires submission of the description *plus* a standard colour photograph of the living plant, in order to be able to register the cultivar name. Again, it is the *registrant's* responsibility to submit a picture that shows all distinguishing features. The available data (author's description, registrant's standard) are kept and published by the ICRA, and the public is thus enabled to make decisions based on qualified (UNCENSORED!) data. Although this procedure may seem complicated or fallible, it is considered better than decisions based on guesswork, insider information, or opinions. The important point is that establishment or registration of a cultivar name do *not* depend on the *quality* of description or standard but they do merely depend on *publication* and *availability* to the ICRA (and therefore, availability to the public). > or because the description given in no way allows the cultivar to be > distinguished from another previously described cultivar. The same as above. The ICRA is not entitled to *make* such judgements. It has to *allow* such judgements by publishing the facts. Nothing else. > Is the name ignored? No. If published and submitted for registration properly (with standard, v.s.), a cultivar name must and will be registered, so it will appear in the International Register. > Is it recorded as an equivalent of an invlaid name? Only if the registrant does want this to be done or if the nomenclatural Codes (ICBN and ICNCP) allow and require this, and only if the rights of other registrants are not affected adversely . > Is such a name barred from future use as it's use has been inappropriate? A later homonym should not be used (because it is ambiguous). Names falling into other categories mentioned above can be used once they are established and registered. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Vitor Fernandes Oliveira de Miranda Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:16:21 -0200 Subject: more about numbering list Hi Jan, >>(...), a way to avoid it may be publishing the original >> numbers list on internet, who knows at ICPS site or even at CP >> Database site (what's your opinion Jan? ). >There is, as far as I understand the ongoing discussion correctly, no >defined set of data that should "at least" be linked to collection >numbers. This makes identification of the taxa corresponding to >collection numbers impossible once the plants are no longer available >(things that may happen in cultivation!). If collection numbers were >backed up by e.g. herbarium specimens, there might be a way to link >them with taxonomic data as listed in the cp db. Anyway, this would >be an enormous task, and I have other interests at the moment, viz. >providing a mapping function with the database browser and including >systematic information for more sophisticated searches and >statistics. I had not thought to link the numbering list with the cp database. Of course, it's almost impossible to assign each sample in cultivation in a oficial taxanomic list. I just thought in use the site, only to show the numbering list, with no relation with cp database. All the best Vitor. ################### From: Vitor Fernandes Oliveira de Miranda Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:26:20 -0200 Subject: re: D. sessilifolia > There is a funny story about the first burmannii/sessilifolia mixup. I >wrote an article titled Relating D. burmanni and D. sessilifolia in the >Oct. 1994 Flytrap News. Hi Ivan, Very interesting your ideas about D. sessilifolia. But, I yet agree that D. sessilifolia is a true species, even if was brought to S Am by humans. I think we have to consider if the differences between the two taxa (D. sessilifolia and D. burmannii) are enough to regard them separately. What do you think? Do you have the article from Flytrap News? Could you send me a copy? I guess it is very interesting. :-) Thanks in advance. Vitor. ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:59:20 +1100 Subject: Pinguicula cutting problems Dear List readers, I have had an interesting (if somewhat frustrating) experience with Pinguicula leaf cuttings. I have started these in both live Sphagnum moss and in vermiculite, with equal success, but no success in peat-sand mixes. Anyway, I have been noticing that once the cuttings get to a certain stage, the older leaves start to go yellow and wither, and this withering seems to catch up with the growing tip faster than the plant grows leaves. Is this normal, or are the plants in need of something else?. This is more of a problem in plants in sphagnum than those moved to a vermiculite/perlite/grit/peat mix. I have just started trying to fertilise them with a 1/5 strength low nitrogen (bloom booster type) fertiliser, which at least is not damaging them. However there seems to have been no improvement yet. Cheers, and thanks for any light you may shed on the plight of my plants! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 ph: (03) 62262624 ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:18:00 EST Subject: Re: Pinguicula cutting problems Miguel, "Shedding light" may be the key phrase, there. How much light are the cuttings getting? If they are getting the same amount as growing plants, that may be stressing them, causing them to turn yellow-brown and wither. If they are getting sun(bad) or indirect light(good)? I do mine under flourescent lights and they seem to take really well. One shoplight sitting on a couple of 10 gallons does the trick. I use a little sphagnum on top of the prefered medium and let them grow into the pot. I hope this helps. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:04:05 -0500 Subject: RE: Numbering - seed collections >Each seed collection (at the Millennium Seed Bank, at any rate) >will then be assigned a unique accession number on our database, Hi Steve, Please let me know if you want wild-collected Sarracenia seed for your seed bank. I can provide all the information you've requested. David Atlanta ################### From: "Lysne, Mark" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:57:36 -0500 Subject: CP Sites in Central and Southern Florida I will be in Central and Southern Florida in late February. I would like to know of any sites where CPs can be viewed. I am interested in natural sites, botanical gardens and nurseries. In particular I would like to know where on Lake Okeechobee the Sarracenia minor can be found. Thanks, Mark Lysne ################### From: Michael Pagoulatos Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:09:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nepenthes question I have been growing a few Nepenthes plants in my house by the window, hanging from the ceiling. The plants are healthy, growing and pitchering. Some of these plants have grown a lot, with vines hanging 2-3 feet below the pot. I have read that Nepenthes tendrils need to grab on something to climb. If I just let the vines hang, are they likely to brake off because of the weight (I have seen pictures of wild Nepenthes with vines hanging several feet)? What is likely to happen, given that there is nothing for the tendrils to climb on? Thanks in advance, Michael Pagoulatos Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:05:13 +0000 Subject: Re: Trinidad CPs? Dear Michael, > Does anyone know what grows in trinidad? The ISO code is "TT". (for the rest, see archives). Kind regards Jan ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:03:22 -0000 Subject: Re: Trinidad CPs Hi Michael I've good news and bad news. First, if you like Utrics then Trinidad's a great place to visit. The bad news is that getting to se any is difficult if not near impossible. The best book to use is Peter Taylor's monograph on Utricularia as it lists approximate (very approximate) locations. In brief, there are 3 obvious areas to look in. The high mountains (look on any map) are home to U. alpina. This is in cultivations so is hardly worth removing from habitat. To see it you have to find literally the veryhighest mountain aeas and then walk. It's damned hard to find any, Trinidad is not the best place to find it. Second is Tar Lake (again, use a map). This is a natural lake of hot tar that escapes from the Earth in Trinidad and, at it's other end, in Venezuela. The tar is covered by water to form a hot lake that you can walk in, standing on the tar. Nearby houses are built on higher tar and gradually sink into it over the years - amusing to see. The lake is hme to U. ********. OK, it's acommon Utric, but it's nice to see how it lives. Best of all is the Aripo Savannah. This is a large area of fairly regular "fields" that look artificial or cultivated but are natural. Each "field" is surrounded by a natural fence of scrub and trees. The fields vary in height and, as a result, and all being at flood level, the fields are therefore wet or flooded to some degree or another. You need waders (rubber thigh length boots) to avoid getting wet or you accept that you'll get wet and also offer your flesh to anything in the water!!! Oh yes, there are also the anacondas, which live wild in Aripo and are considered large enough to be dangerous even to adults, though I personally doubt this is true - unless they're very hungry!!! :-) The problem is that the Aripo Savannahs are a National Park and totally protected. By totally, I mean that legally, you can not just walk around inside the savannah. You need a permit. Of course, the savannahs are huge, so one can imagine that walking in them without a permit may be quite easy to do without being caught. But they are well patrolled (men with cutlasses, or some call them machetes). Alternatively, there is a small "office" along the edge of the savannah where you can ask permission to enter. They may be in a good mood or may just say no. Usually they say no as it avoids any need for paperwork. If you can travel with any letters of introduction form published botanists it might help. But it might not. I got in the first time because I knew Peter taylor and had a letter from him as well as being an ex-eacher from one of the most famous of all Caribbean schools (in Barbados). They also let me in because they thought it was hilarious that I was going to protect myself against any giant anaconda by using my nice diver's knife (which they reckoned might tickle the snake if i was really strong!). I think they wanted to see if I got eaten! The second visit I made, they let me in because they had let me in the first time!!! If you do get in, something is always in flower. You can bet that wherever you put a foot there will be a minimum of 3 different Utrics squashed and maybe as many as 6 or 7 species. Overall, there are more species than that but you'll need 2 or more wekeks to find them. Many, and in my opinion the most interesting, are deep in the savannah in deep ditches full of water - they are of course fixed aquatics. But you can certainly see some exciting species where the savannnah is flat and wet. U. hispida is worth looking out for as it's habitat preference seems to be different in Trinidad to Brazil (I've discussed this with Fernando). You'll find this speciesd in wet areas where most of the land is under about 1 inch (2 cm) of water. The plants will be on the top of small bumps of soil, each single clump growing next to a single clump of hairy grass. No-one knows why the two plants are associatedn though i suppose they both like the same conditions. In other parts of Trinidad, esecially in deep water filled ditches, there are other Utrics but finding them will take a long time. Sadly, the removal of anything from Aripo is totally forbidden. However, there is no real likelyhood of finding any new species there (it's been thoroughly researched for years by Peter Taylor and many famous and less famous Trinidadians) so why seed can't be collected I don't know. Of all the islands in the Caribbean, Trinidad can live up to a reputation for having the least helpful inhabitats who don't go out of their way to help tourists (Trinidad once found oil and thought it could survive without tourism - it didn't, and the oil mostly ran dry - but the independence from tourism liners on!!!). Be patient and friendly and keep your fingers crossed. If people say no, look sad, look as if you might cry, and try another way to ask. Praise the uniqueness of the place and the way its an excellent example of conservation that you've travelled miles to see. As long as you don't make someone angry (in which case be very polite and leave), the more time you spend asking for help, the more likely they are to think it will be quicker and easier to say yes than to say no! Oh, I almost forgot. How unlike me. There are a couple of funny rosetty red things too. However, even Fernando would find it hard to get excited about them! (There used to be a wild population of Dionaea. It was planted by the tar lake on private property. But i doubt it's still alive as the plant gets no rest period in Trinidad so will by now have become exhausted and died out. They were an attempt at a commercial exercise.) Hope this helps a little. Regards Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:06:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sarracenia seed dispersal Hey Folks, Sarracenia seeds are hydrophobic. They can float and float. Put them in a body of water and they'll go anywhere. On the other hand, field researchers have noted that plants such as S. oreophila can migrate uphill, and have suggested that the somewhat stiff flower stalks may act as slings, throwing the seed as they get tossed about in the wind. Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:33:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Sarracenia seed dispersal Phil, > >Please note we have an abstract about a study we did on S. flava seed >dispersal and dissemination in Virginia. Go to the RESEARCH section of our >web page at www.pitcherplant.org and look under Abstracts. In short, water >is the main agent for dispersal locally. > I'm surprised this topic did not generate more interest! Your observations certainly seem to confirm my thoughts on the subject though as I mentioned in my posting there is probably some secondary means of dispersal of seed between suitable habitat, unless a case could be made for a far more extensive and interconnected bog system in the eastern North America. A useful means of observing migration of seedlings through populations is to observe plants in sites where there is a predominance of one species with single or very few plants of a second. Where these species readily hybridise it is possible to see hybrid plants of second and subsequent generations move in a radial pattern from the original parent. I have seen this phenomenon at several locations in the south. At one site the hybrid progeny could be seen clearly moving away from the parent. The further away from the original parent the hybrid "moved" the more like the predominant species it looked. The migration of the seedlings also almost certainly followed a water course - the ground sloped away from the parent plant in the same direction as the migration was observed. Your abstract on Sarracenia growing season dormancy was interesting and recalled a previous conversation. Do you know a guy called Randy Zerr? He lives at Fort Walton Beach in the Florida panhandle and has done a lot of work in the Eglin Reserve. He has found plants of S. flava growing in a semi-dormant state in the summer. The plant were growing in well developed planted (not natural) pine forest and had plenty of non- carnivorous phylodia leaves but no pitchers. Randy estimates the age of the pine trees to be about fifteen years. The assumption is that probably for the first five years the Sarracenia were able to grow more or less normally before the trees grew tall enough to block out the sunlight. Therefore the plants had probably been in this "dormant" state for the remainder of the time until Randy had found the plants. He removed a plant to see if it would revert to normal growth once given sufficient light - it did. I would not consider this state of growth to be dormant since the plants were obviously still growing. I would consider however that the plants were in a state of reduced growth - you could call it semi-dormancy. The plants were not flowering and were not producing pitchers. They were most likely surviving at a reduced growth rate from food reserves stored in the rhizomes. No seedlings or juvenile plants were observed at the site. It is an assumption, but a pretty good one, that the plants were surviving in this reduced state until conditions improved. I suspect that at least some Sarracenia species are able to make this change in growth type as a means of survival when conditions deteriorate. It is likely that this was originally a means of surviving periods of drought and in fact I saw this sort of shut down in growth last fall in the south where the area had been subject to very low rainfall throughout the area last summer. Many areas of S. leucophylla were observed with nothing but phylodia growth. At other areas plants had produced fall pitchers but these were reduced in height. The most interesting areas were plants that had apparently aborted all pitcher growth in favour of seed production. Plants were seen with no leaf growth other than phylodia but with mature seed pods. The assumption is that the plant's reaction to drought differs according to what stage of growth the drought occurs. If it occurs before seed has set the flowers and pitchers abort - in some instances phylodia are produced but this is not always the case. If seed production has begun then all growth is aborted in favour of seed production. The reasons are obvious - the best chance of survival is by dormant seed, which may lie in the ground for a number of years waiting for favourable conditions to return. Failing that the plants will attempt to survive in a shut down 'semi-dormant' state. Do you know of any work that has been carried out on the ancient distribution patterns of Sarracenia and its related genera? One thing that has puzzled me for some time now is how the apparently related genera of Sarracenia, Heliamphora and Darlingtonia became so widely dispersed from one another? There are apparently impenetrable barriers separating the populations - mountains, deserts and sea! Of course these barriers may be geologically recent events but even so the distance between these genera is impressive on its own. Add to that the fact that the tepuis are very ancient pieces of uplifted sandstone and have their origins in Africa. One idea is that the genera, or some predecessor may have existed in central America at the time of the last ice age. During the ice ages the sea level was considerably reduced perhaps allowing boggy habitat to form all along the gulf coast. Also the climate may have been both cooler and wetter due to the relative proximity of the ice cap. Do you know how Sarracenia and the other genera fit into the geological time scale? Our society committee will be meeting in March, by which time the sub- committee will hopefully have come to a decision about your funding application. If there are any developments I'll let you know, unofficially or officially. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:42:30 -0500 Subject: RE: Sarracenia seed dispersal >On the other hand, field researchers have noted that plants such as >S. oreophila can migrate uphill, and have suggested that the somewhat >stiff flower stalks may act as slings, throwing the seed as they get >tossed about in the wind. Ever run across one of those giant clumps of S. minor in the wild. If you get down on your hands and knees and search out the flower stalks, you'll find that they hang away from the plant at about a 30 degree angle. That's probably an evoluntionary advantage brought about by a flower stalk that is decidedly shorter than the other upright Sarracenia, which produce tall, straight inflorecences. Hanging away from the plant allows the seed to fall on bare ground where it has a better chance of surviving. The upright pitchers, on the other hand, can still produce large clumps but probably have the advantage of a flower stalk being blown down by strong winds and falling far from the plants rhizome, again allowing seedlings space to grow. I've never seen clumps of S. psittacina. I think what's happening there is that S. psittacina prefer habitat that regularly is flooded, for instance, ditches, and therefore seed is much more likely to be moved around by water. David Atlanta ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:53:51 EST Subject: Re: Trinidad CPs Paul, Fernando and Sundew Matt are not the only ones who like funny, red rosetted things. What are they? Tropical capillaris, brevifolia and intermedia? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:47:29 EST Subject: Re: Trinidad CPs Hi All, Just so Paul does not have to do anything undignified like name a couple of Drosera species( :0), I looked it up and the two Drosera species are D. intermedia and D. kaieteurensis. FYI. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Fernando Rivadavia Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:43:25 -0200 (UOL) Subject: D.sessilifolia/flora ; collection numbers To all, I'm really enjoying this thread and wanted to say that I'm all for adding numbers, since I already use a numbering system: my herbarium collection numbers. I always collect herbarium and include all sorts of info, like collection number, habitat info, plant colors, and even GPS data. I guess if we're all in agreement (or at least most of us), all we have to do now is convince seed banks worldwide to take these numbers into consideration. In my case, I guess Rivadavia followed by the number would be correct. Or simply my initials would be better maybe, like that Czech cactus guy (KK). To Greg, Miguel, Joe, and everyone, >Sorry Miguel and Joe, you said D. sessilifolia but I was asking about >sessiliflora. The plant I have is not sessilifolia. It is not an annual >that's for sure. I think I'd better leave it until I get a web page up and >running so I can show you photos. AAARRGH! Let me put an end to this before it goes any further! This is one of those confusions which just goes on and on and makes me want to forget this whole numbering system story, especially because I'm always writing about it here and yet it keeps coming back to haunt me, like the Friday the 13th movies!! There is NO SUCH THING as D.sessiliFLORA. This is a misspelling of D.sessiliFOLIA. Furthermore, seeds being traded around as " D.sessiliFLORA" and a few D.sessiliFOLIA are NOT the real D.sessiliFOLIA. THAT is why your plant does not look like D.burmannii and is not annual, Greg. As Paul would say, it's one of those red rosetted thingies. African by the way... While on the subject, I'd forgotten about that ACPS D.sessilifolia story Ivan, hahaha! I don't doubt that D.sessilifolia could have been brought by man, but if this was true I would say it happened a few thousand years ago AT LEAST. After all, it occurs from central Brazil all the way to N Venezuela. It's the most widespread of all S.American Drosera (well, second maybe to D.communis). I've no doubt however that it did come from Asia and not vice-versa, since it seems to be surprisingly unvariable for such a widespread plant. D.burmannii on the other hand is far more variable (Ivan, I'd love to see pics of this D.burmannii you said Rob collected and which looks like D.sessilifolia!), which to me suggests that it has had a longer speciation time and therefore has been around there longer. I use the same thinking to assume that D.brevifolia came to Brazil from the N rather than vice-versa. Usually larger genetic variability indicates the place or origin. Look at the recent genetic studies with H.sapiens... Bet Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia (right now in Santiago, Chile... and guess what I found over the weekend?!?!) ################### From: "Steve Alton" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:44:36 -0000 Subject: Seed collecting Dear David, Wild-collected seed samples are always welcome, providing all the legal requirements have been observed - permission from the land owner, consent of any relevant government body in the case of protected species, CITES and phytosanitary regulations, etc. We have a simple donations form which we send out to collaborators, detailing the procedure. Perhaps you could contribute to the project being set up by Catherine Prior of the World Environmental Organization? [Catherine - any thoughts?] Bear in mind that seed donated to the Millennium Seed Bank is held as a conservation and research resource, not to supply enthusiast growers - we are not in competition with the ICPS seed bank! Regards, Steve > Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:04:05 -0500 > From: "Mellard, David" > To: "'cp@opus.labs.agilent.com'" > Subject: RE: Numbering - seed collections > Message-ID: > > > > >Each seed collection (at the Millennium Seed Bank, at any rate) > >will then be assigned a unique accession number on our database, > > > Hi Steve, > > Please let me know if you want wild-collected Sarracenia seed for your > seed bank. I can provide all the information you've requested. > > David > Atlanta > MILLENNIUM SEED BANK Project Steve Alton B.Sc. Seed Donations Officer Seed Conservation Department Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew Wakehurst Place, Ardingly, Haywards Heath West Sussex RH17 6TN, UK Tel direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894119 Fax direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894110 Email: s.alton@rbgkew.org.uk http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/seedbank/msb.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:48:10 -0000 Subject: Re: Trinidadian rosetty things Jo >Fernando and Sundew Matt are not the only ones who like funny, >red rosetted things. Wow, three people that love them! Their popularity has grown by 50% in one day! :-) >Just so Paul does not have to do anything undignified like name a couple of > Drosera species( :0), I looked it up and the two Drosera species are D. >intermedia and D. kaieteurensis. FYI. And had I replied, I would have got it wrong! But just to step out of character for a second - the intermedia are very nice (but still red and rosetty) and everywhere (or anywere that is wet enough)! :-) Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:50:42 -0000 Subject: Re: right now in Santiago, Chile Fernando >(right now in Santiago, Chile... and guess what I found over the weekend?!?!) Oh goodie goodie goodie! Surely all this excitement can't be for a red rosetty thing? I could almost start getting excited! :-) However, if anyone visits the Paramos of Venezuela/Colombia, I really would get excited about a quaint little D, D, D (hang about, I've a problem with using this word), Drosera, that grows in them thar hills. Now there's a statement noboday ever expected to get from me!!! Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:13:57 +0000 Subject: "most widespread" and sessilifolia Dear Fernando, > I don't doubt that D.sessilifolia could have been brought by man, but > if this was true I would say it happened a few thousand years ago > AT LEAST. After all, it occurs from central Brazil all the way to N > Venezuela. It's the most widespread of all S.American Drosera (well, > second maybe to D.communis). This may be true *within* S America, but is definitely not the case from a global point of view. In contrast to the two species you mentioned, there are three others that extend to N America, viz. _D. intermedia_, _capillaris_, and _brevifolia_. Of these, the first also occurs in the Old World, and therefore, this is the unchallenged, most widespread of all S American _Drosera_. While I agree that _D. sessilifolia_ might have come from the East (of Gondwana), humans do not need to have been involved (BTW: humans did not exist when Gondwana was *one* continent!). The most striking feature in the recent distribution of Thelocalyx is its apparent lack in Africa, if it is assumed to be an old Gonwanan element (it is quite certainly an old element in the genus: "primitive" pollen type, 5 carpels). I have written "apparent" (for those who did not notice it), because I think Planchon (1848) mentions a specimen of _D. burmannii_ from Sierra Leone (W Africa)! This specimen (an Afzelius collection) is not mentioned by Diels or Hamet nor by any subsequent author. I have not seen the specimen (it might be at P or K), so I do not really know what it is. Of course it could be assumed that the plant came to Sierra Leone by ship together with goods from Asia. But where would you expect S American elements to have survived (from Gondwanan times) in Africa? Right in Upper Guinea (remember the recent discovery of the American _Utricularia juncea_ in Ivory Coast)! So perhaps the Afzelius specimen is not _D. burmannii_ but rather _D. sessilifolia_. But the two may be the same, anyway. In any event, the African gap would be much narrower, and it could be explained by the droughts that have eliminated much of Africa's original flora. It would perhaps be interesting (for our British or French colleagues) to look for the Afzelius specimen and maybe (for those who visit the region) to look for further specimens of strange rosetted things in W Africa. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:52:55 -0500 Subject: FW: Join -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 3:52 PM To: 'cp@opus.labs.agilent.com' Hey there, Is there a cp list serve? If so, how do I join? I would like to join the CP list serve. slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: Catherine Prior Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:58:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Seed collecting Steve Alton wrote: > > Dear David, > > Perhaps you could contribute to the project being set up by Catherine >Prior of the World Environmental Organization? [Catherine - any thoughts?] Steve and others, Thanks for recommending that people donate seed to our Endangered Plant Propagation Center. We are currently developing a formal system for accepting seed donations, but are glad to accept any contributions of seed either for our efforts, or on behalf of the Millennium Seed Bank, now. When our seed donation procedure is finalized I will put more information out to this list. We currently have seed for about 1,200 species and varieties of CP which we are starting at our location in Watkinsville, Georgia. There is not much to see yet, as we are just planting most of the seeds now, so we only have some small seedlings started so far. This said, anyone passing through the area is welcome to visit. Just give us a call, or e-mail, a few days ahead. The phone number here is (706) 769-1000. Also, our address is: World Environmental Organization 2001 J.T. Elder Road Watkinsville, GA 30677 Web site is at http://www.World.Org The seeds we receive will be used to grow future propagation stock to be provided to universities, botanical gardens, and also, as necessary, to propagate plants for field restoration work. Best regards, Catherine Prior cp@world.org > > ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:31:12 -0500 Subject: RE: D.sessilifolia/flora ; collection numbers > I always collect herbarium and include all sorts of info, like collection number, habitat info, >plant colors, and even GPS data. I guess if we're all in agreement (or at least most of us), all >we have to do now is convince seed banks worldwide to take these numbers into consideration. In Sounds like this is a job for Super..., I mean ICPS. Maybe they could propose a universal numbering system. Isn't it great that we have a bunch of dedicated volunteers that little folks can propose things to. That way, all of us who want to do this can use the same system. David Atlanta ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:58:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Best way to acclimate plant from Southern Hemisphere? Ron, > >What's the best way to acclimate a plant grown in the southern hemisphere to >adjust itself to the growing seasons in the northern hemisphere? > >Ron >_________________________________________________________________ It probably depends much on the plant. Some plants do not have a dormancy requirement and will grow all year round. Generally though, for most plants that have a dormancy its just a question of letting the plant adjust its own growth pattern. This usually takes about a year. The exceptions are plants that enter a true dormancy such as tuberous and pygmy Drosera where more care is needed to allow the plants to adjust to the seasons. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:26:53 +0000 Subject: Re: Pinguicula cutting problems Miguel, > >I have had an interesting (if somewhat frustrating) experience with >Pinguicula leaf cuttings. I have started these in both live Sphagnum moss >and in vermiculite, with equal success, but no success in peat-sand mixes. >Anyway, I have been noticing that once the cuttings get to a certain stage, >the older leaves start to go yellow and wither, and this withering seems to >catch up with the growing tip faster than the plant grows leaves. Is this >normal, or are the plants in need of something else?. This is more of a >problem in plants in sphagnum than those moved to a >vermiculite/perlite/grit/peat mix. Several things spring to mind. You could be keeping the cuttings too wet, too humid, too warm or you could be giving them too much light. What you report is certainly not normal - I have never experienced it anyway. There is one other possibility. You could have a fungal pathogen - not necessarily the usual botrytis. Have you experienced any similar problems with rotting in your plants? A few growers have had problems of this sort. Usually the problem starts with a few of the leaves starting to rot and then very rapidly (often overnight) the entire plant succumbs. If you think this might be the problem you could try a fungicide though it is likely that simply increasing ventilation and decreasing humidity could be equally successful. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:12:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: UC Davis Open House Hey Folks, February 10th, 1:30-4:00, the UC Davis Botanical Conservatory will be holding its annual Open House. Folks in the northern California area may wish to drop by and see the carnivorous plant collections we have here. On hand will be at least one editor of Carnivorous Plant Newsletter (some guy named Barry Meyers-Rice), and probably the ICPS Seed Bank overlord (John Brittnacher, another Ne'er-do-well). Stop by and see us! Contact information is at http://greenhouse.ucdavis.edu/conservatory.htm Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:27:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Seed collecting Steve, > >Wild-collected seed samples are always welcome, providing all the >legal requirements have been observed - permission from the land >owner, consent of any relevant government body in the case of >protected species, CITES and phytosanitary regulations, etc. > Its just a small point but seeds of all species except those listed under the CITES appendix I are exempt from international restrictions. As far as I know there are also no phytosanitary restrictions regarding seed when importing into the UK. Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:33:50 -0600 Subject: List Problems? Is the list still alive? I haven't gotten any messages since December. If it's me - email me personally since I obviously won't get it from the list - I can't seem to find the list subscription web page. Thanks, Mike ################### From: Phil Sheridan Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1981 20:29:08 -0800 Subject: Re: Sarracenia seed dispersal and pitcher plant preserve Hi Phil: I am answering a number of questions you proposed below and also want to alert ICPS members again about the preserve we are building in southern Virginia. We have applied to the UK CP Society for a grant to help in our acquisition of a pitcher plant preserve in southern Virginia and solicit the rest of the ICPS membership in that effort. Our organization, Meadowview Biological Research Station, is an official IRS 501(c)(3) organization to which you can now donate tax deductible contributions. In brief, our goal is to capture the entire native Virginia longleaf pine (4432 trees) and yellow pitcher genome on one preserve, along with about a dozen other native rare associate species. The future preserve encompasses 100 acres of gently rolling terrain and sphagnous seepage wetlands within the heart of the longleaf pine and yellow pitcher plant range in Virginia. We have worked with the landowner over the past four years and have successfully reintroduced one population of S. flava and have very successful test plantings with longleaf pine. Sarracenia flava will be planted in separate seeps based on separate sites to preserve local identity to the best extent possible (one population allowed to bloom per year). The preserve will be managed with fire and we have the possibility of eventually significantly expanding the landholding. Please note that two of the native Virginia S. flava populations we have studied over the years have done extinct due to flooding or habitat degradation. We are now the sole repositorty for these genomes and these plants are maintained in above ground beds. We would like to return them to the wild in a secure area and the preserve offers that opportunity. Purchase price is the assessed value of $113,000. We have already received a cash donation by Keith Underwood and Associate, of Annapolis, Maryland for $750.00 and have set up the savings account for land putchase. If you wish to make a donation and have it dedicated to the preserve please indicate this on our sponsorship form at our web site at www.pitcherplant.org. Now to Phil Wilson's e-mail. > > Phil, > > > >Please note we have an abstract about a study we did on S. flava seed > >dispersal and dissemination in Virginia. Go to the RESEARCH section of our > >web page at www.pitcherplant.org and look under Abstracts. In short, water > >is the main agent for dispersal locally. > > > I'm surprised this topic did not generate more interest! > > Your observations certainly seem to confirm my thoughts on the subject > though as I mentioned in my posting there is probably some secondary > means of dispersal of seed between suitable habitat, unless a case could > be made for a far more extensive and interconnected bog system in the > eastern North America. > > A useful means of observing migration of seedlings through populations > is to observe plants in sites where there is a predominance of one > species with single or very few plants of a second. Where these species > readily hybridise it is possible to see hybrid plants of second and > subsequent generations move in a radial pattern from the original > parent. I have seen this phenomenon at several locations in the south. > At one site the hybrid progeny could be seen clearly moving away from > the parent. The further away from the original parent the hybrid "moved" > the more like the predominant species it looked. The migration of the > seedlings also almost certainly followed a water course - the ground > sloped away from the parent plant in the same direction as the migration > was observed. This sounds interesting. > > Your abstract on Sarracenia growing season dormancy was interesting and > recalled a previous conversation. Do you know a guy called Randy Zerr? No. > He lives at Fort Walton Beach in the Florida panhandle and has done a > lot of work in the Eglin Reserve. He has found plants of S. flava > growing in a semi-dormant state in the summer. The plant were growing in > well developed planted (not natural) pine forest and had plenty of non- > carnivorous phylodia leaves but no pitchers. Randy estimates the age of > the pine trees to be about fifteen years. The assumption is that > probably for the first five years the Sarracenia were able to grow more > or less normally before the trees grew tall enough to block out the > sunlight. Therefore the plants had probably been in this "dormant" state > for the remainder of the time until Randy had found the plants. He > removed a plant to see if it would revert to normal growth once given > sufficient light - it did. > Yes, but I don't like the term dormancy. Since they still produce leaves (pyllodia) and weak pitchers they are actively growing and not dormant. Sarracenia typically responds to reduced light levels in this fashion. > I would not consider this state of growth to be dormant since the plants > were obviously still growing. I would consider however that the plants > were in a state of reduced growth - you could call it semi-dormancy. The > plants were not flowering and were not producing pitchers. They were > most likely surviving at a reduced growth rate from food reserves stored > in the rhizomes. But probably not exclusively on reserves. Since they have leaves there should be some photosynthetic contribution. No seedlings or juvenile plants were observed at the > site. It is an assumption, but a pretty good one, that the plants were > surviving in this reduced state until conditions improved. I agree. Waiting for some kind of disturbance, such as fire. Although this can get a lot more complicated. In natural systems, even in the absence of frequent fire, you can get small natural gaps with full sun surrounded by much more shaded plants. > > I suspect that at least some Sarracenia species are able to make this > change in growth type as a means of survival when conditions > deteriorate. It is likely that this was originally a means of surviving > periods of drought and in fact I saw this sort of shut down in growth > last fall in the south where the area had been subject to very low > rainfall throughout the area last summer. Many areas of S. leucophylla > were observed with nothing but phylodia growth. At other areas plants > had produced fall pitchers but these were reduced in height. The most > interesting areas were plants that had apparently aborted all pitcher > growth in favour of seed production. Or they had a moist spring, which allowed flowering and seed set, and then the rain stopped resulting in greatly reduced growth. Plants were seen with no leaf > growth other than phylodia but with mature seed pods. The assumption is > that the plant's reaction to drought differs according to what stage of > growth the drought occurs. If it occurs before seed has set the flowers > and pitchers abort - in some instances phylodia are produced but this is > not always the case. If seed production has begun then all growth is > aborted in favour of seed production. The reasons are obvious - the best > chance of survival is by dormant seed, which may lie in the ground for a > number of years waiting for favourable conditions to return. Failing > that the plants will attempt to survive in a shut down 'semi-dormant' > state. > > Do you know of any work that has been carried out on the ancient > distribution patterns of Sarracenia and its related genera? There is speculation by Fred and Roberta Case in their S. rubra papers. Also check early Wherry work. There was also a paper a few years back on Heliamphora, Darlingtonia, and Sarracenia spred from progenitors in South America. Very speculative stuff though. One thing > that has puzzled me for some time now is how the apparently related > genera of Sarracenia, Heliamphora and Darlingtonia became so widely > dispersed from one another? There are apparently impenetrable barriers > separating the populations - mountains, deserts and sea! Of course these > barriers may be geologically recent events but even so the distance > between these genera is impressive on its own. Add to that the fact that > the tepuis are very ancient pieces of uplifted sandstone and have their > origins in Africa. > > One idea is that the genera, or some predecessor may have existed in > central America at the time of the last ice age. During the ice ages the > sea level was considerably reduced perhaps allowing boggy habitat to > form all along the gulf coast. Also the climate may have been both > cooler and wetter due to the relative proximity of the ice cap. Do you > know how Sarracenia and the other genera fit into the geological time > scale? > > Our society committee will be meeting in March, by which time the sub- > committee will hopefully have come to a decision about your funding > application. If there are any developments I'll let you know, > unofficially or officially. > > Regards, > Phil Wilson > Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk > Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk My regards to all of you. Hope to hear from you! Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station ################### From: Ccp108@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:35:29 EST Subject: My first Venus gooey green come back One Venus in sandy soil turned gooey green ~ I had some dry cow manor in a bag and I put a little, powered, in the middle. My Venus is her snappy self once more. Cousin Clem ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:07:59 -0500 Subject: Re: List Problems? It is you. http://www2.labs.agilent.com/botany/cp/html/cp_lstsv.htm There you go, Michael Manna >From: Michael Vanecek >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: List Problems? >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:41:57 -0800 (PST) > >Is the list still alive? I haven't gotten any messages since December. >If it's me - email me personally since I obviously won't get it from the >list - I can't seem to find the list subscription web page. > >Thanks, >Mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:35:11 +0930 Subject: CPalaeontology I read with interest the theory regarding the introduction of Drosera burmannii to Sth America by Australian migrants. It reminded me of something I read in "The Wollemi Pine" (author James Woodford) that said at one time there were giant Venus Fly Traps growing in central Australia. Can anyone point me to an info source on CP evolution, palaeontology?? For example, I'm curious about how Nepenthes managed to grow in Madagascar. Also, I'd like to know if they ever grew in Antarctica. For those with a general interest in botany, I would recommend looking at the Wollemi Pine site at http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/html/Wollemi.html Initially there were only two stands of trees containing 29 adult plants, all of which are genetically identical, however a third stand has been found. (Happily, those involved don't have to worry too much about collection numbers). Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:00:45 +1100 Subject: NO SUCH THING as D.sessiliFLORA Hi all >To Greg, Miguel, Joe, and everyone, > > > AAARRGH! Let me put an end to this before it goes any further! This >is one of those confusions which just goes on and on and makes me want to >forget this whole numbering system story, especially because I'm always >writing about it here and yet it keeps coming back to haunt me, like the >Friday the 13th movies!! > > There is NO SUCH THING as D.sessiliFLORA. This is a misspelling of >D.sessiliFOLIA. Furthermore, seeds being traded around as " D.sessiliFLORA" >and a few D.sessiliFOLIA are NOT the real D.sessiliFOLIA. THAT is why your >plant does not look like D.burmannii and is not annual, Greg. As Paul would >say, it's one of those red rosetted thingies. African by the way... Sorry to bother you all again with this. If so many people know that this plant is not D. sessili(whatever), why can't someone please tell me what it is????? I think that it's good that it is traded here as D. sessiliflora so at least if we are eventually told what it really is that we can get it right. The photo's will be up and running by Saturday!! That's only two days so hang on and all will be revealed. There's also good photos of other unnamed Drosera as well as mutant Neps. Greg ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:02:52 -0500 Subject: Red rosetty thing Hello list, I was under the impression this was the common name for Drosera capollaris ;-) Steven Stewart Sanford, Fl. USA ################### From: "Steve Alton" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:36:39 -0000 Subject: Re: Seed collecting Dear Phil, > As > far as I know there are also no phytosanitary restrictions regarding seed > when importing into the UK. I suspect you are right in the case of all CP species, but this not universally true. Potato or grape seed is totally prohibited, for instance, and various other crops and their wild relatives need certification. Kew, as a registered quarantine centre, has the power to issue a 'letter of authority' for the import of restricted material. But the whole issue is complicated beyond belief! The form we send to donors has to cover all possible situations. Steve MILLENNIUM SEED BANK Project Steve Alton B.Sc. Seed Donations Officer Seed Conservation Department Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew Wakehurst Place, Ardingly, Haywards Heath West Sussex RH17 6TN, UK Tel direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894119 Fax direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894110 Email: s.alton@rbgkew.org.uk http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/seedbank/msb.html ################### From: Robert Ziemer Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:50:08 -0800 Subject: re: CPalaeontology Kevin Cook wrote: >For those with a general interest in botany, I would recommend looking >at the Wollemi Pine site at >http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/html/Wollemi.html Apparently the URL is case sensitive. Try: http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/HTML/Wollemi.html ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:48:00 -0800 Subject: Re: D. burmannii versus sessilifolia > I've no doubt however that it did come from Asia and not vice-versa, since it seems to be surprisingly unvariable for >such a widespread plant. D.burmannii on the other hand is far more variable (Ivan, I'd love to see pics of this >D.burmannii you said Rob collected and which looks like D.sessilifolia!), which to me suggests that it has had a >longer speciation time and therefore has been around there longer. I use the same thinking to assume that >D.brevifolia came to Brazil from the N rather than vice-versa. Usually larger genetic variability indicates the place or >origin. Look at the recent genetic studies with H.sapiens... >Best Wishes, >Fernando Rivadavia Hi Fernando and all, Sounds like you are suggesting that D. burmannii only made the trip once fairly recently, and that explains less diversity in S. America; very reasonable. I was thinking before that D. sessilifolia has been in S. America a very long time, but has been going back and forth over time and this is why both D. burmannii and D. sessilifolia are genetically compatible. Anyway, what course do you figure the plant travelled? Through Asia and across the Bering Straights to N. American and then south? Hey, I think I just figured it out! How about the species made the trip once during a narrow window of time 12, 000 years ago when the land bridge was open? That would be good to see if you could pick out any difference between that particular form of D. burmanni and D. sessilifolia. I remember how when you looked at my collection you instantly distinguished them and even my hybrid. This form from the Pilliga Scrub NSW I certainly could not tell from D. sessilifolia. It even had the pinkish tinted flower which is more typical in sessilifolia. I only have one photo print of a single plant and have no scanner. I'm sure Robert could scan some for you. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:06:05 EST Subject: Re: D. burmannii versus sessilifolia Maybe seeds were stowed within the coconut fibers when swallows migrating with the coconuts were blown off course, and that way, D. burmannii was spread to South America? I thought I had better say it before Fernando did:) Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:55:26 -0500 Subject: Re: NO SUCH THING as D.sessiliFLORA Dear Greg, > Sorry to bother you all again with this. If so many people know that this > plant is not D. sessili(whatever), why can't someone please tell me what it > is????? I think that it's good that it is traded here as D. sessiliflora so > at least if we are eventually told what it really is that we can get it > right. The photo's will be up and running by Saturday!! That's only two days > so hang on and all will be revealed. There's also good photos of other > unnamed Drosera as well as mutant Neps. Well, since Fernando mentions that it is a South African Drosera, some idea of what it could be comes to mind. Besides for one of the many flat rosetted species from S. A., it could be a hybrid. The best way to tell is to post your photos, but even then some photos don't reveal the details needed for ID... Also, your plant may not be named yet. Some species are traded, but are not yet officially named. Dave Evans ################### From: "Jay Vannini" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:00:06 -0600 Subject: Pinguicula gigantea dormancy? Greetings: I have a nice young plant of this sp. that I obtained from last year that I have growing in a mix of vermiculite and dolomite chips. I was somewhat surprised to see that it continued to grow vigorously through early December, even though most of my other neotropical Pings had long since rosetted. I continued to water it cautiously through the end of December, at which time (and at ca. 15 cm in diameter) it began to show rapid senescence of most of the basal leaves. I stopped watering the plant, and it appears to be in a state of suspended animation - the growing point and the youngest leaves neither growing, nor drying up, nor is there any sign of iminent flowering. Cud anyone on the list give me feedback on whether or not this is normal winter behavior for this sp.? Jay P. ################### From: Andrew Gibbons Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:51:58 +1100 Subject: RE: CPalaeontology Kevin, Yes, there were giant venus flytraps but the size was later found to be due to environment and cultivation as opposed to genetics :-). Before you get excited I'll warn you that I work in the not very cp related world of animal developmental biology so I am nowhere near an expert in evolutionary biology. I did a quick search on Bioabstracts and managed to pull up the following paper: Truswell, E M. & Marchant, N G. (1986) Early Tertiary Pollen of Probable Droseracean Affinity from Central Australia. Special Papers in Palaeontology. 35:161-176. I don't have access to this Journal so I can't tell you too much about the findings. The abstract is as follows: "Fischeripollis halensis sp. nov. is described from the Ulgnamba Lignite in the Hale River Basin, northeast of Alice Springs, central Australia. This unit, on the evidence of a diverse palynomorph assemblage, with some constraints provided by palaeomagnetic dating of deep-weathering profiles, is probably of Middle to Late Eocene age. Abundant rainforest taxa in the pollen spectrum suggest high, uniformly distributed rainfall. The similarity of F. halensis, which occurs either in single grains or in tetrads, to pollen of extant Droseraceae is evident in the proximo-equatorial ring of large apertures, and in the grain wall, which bears processes in two distinct size classes. The strongest resemblance is to pollen of extant Dionaea, the Venus Fly Trap, which occurs today only in the south-eastern United States. The presence of pores which penetrate directly into the main body of the grain, rather than into a system of radiating channels on the proximal face, suggests relationship with the Dionaea lineage rathe I don't know how these results were taken within the appropriate scientific community. Given that sex and development tend to be slower to evolve compaired to other morphological and physiological processes and Australia already has a high degree of Droseraceae representation, including the closely related Aldrovanda, it may not be unthinkable that a prehistoric flytrap existed in Australia. If it was indeed ancestral it would imply Dionaea (or its ancestors) had a distribution over a number of (future) continents. Conversely, the article may simply imply that the species of Fischeripollis in question had some N.American ancestry. I'm not familiar with this plant so I wouldn't attempt to say either way. Hope this helps. Andrew Kevin Cook wrote: > I read with interest the theory regarding the introduction of Drosera > burmannii to Sth America by Australian migrants. > It reminded me of something I read in "The Wollemi Pine" (author James > Woodford) that said at one time there were giant Venus Fly Traps growing in > central Australia. > Can anyone point me to an info source on CP evolution, palaeontology?? For > example, I'm curious about how Nepenthes managed to grow in > Madagascar. Also, I'd like to know if they ever grew in Antarctica. > For those with a general interest in botany, I would recommend looking at > the Wollemi Pine site at > http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/html/Wollemi.html Initially there were only > two stands of trees containing 29 adult plants, all of which are > genetically identical, however a third stand has been found. (Happily, > those involved don't have to worry too much about collection numbers). > Regards, > Kevin Cook > Darwin > Australia ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:33:21 +0000 Subject: flytrap fossils Dear Kevin & Andrew, As a little appetizer for my prospective cp evolution paper (to be submitted to CPN), I paste here what I have summarized on Droseraceae fossils: "Fossil pollen has been attributed to several genera of Droseraceae. A single record from central European Mid Miocene (called Fischeripollis) has been assigned to Dionaea (Krutzsch, 1970). An interesting series of fossil seeds and even leaves (perhaps traps, if the interpretation is correct) could be established since Senonian for Aldrovanda (Degreef, 1997, Schlauer, 1997a), occurring through large parts of temperate Eurasia (which used to have a warmer climate than nowadays, and which lacks Aldrovanda in great parts now) with several different and now extinct species and genera (Saxonipollis). This is in very good consonance with the widely scattered distribution of the recent Aldrovanda vesiculosa throughout the old world, resulting from glacial fragmentation of a formerly continuous range. Droseraceae pollen (Fischeripollis) is represented in the Early Tertiary strata of central Australia (Truswell & Marchant, 1986). Mid Palaeocene pollen specimens from Assam (Cherra formation, Droseridites parvus, Sah & Dutta, 1974) are of uncertain attribution but could also belong to Nepenthes (N. khasiana being at least geographically a very close recent species, v.i.). Drosera pollen has been recorded since Lower Miocene from New Zealand (Mildenhall, 1980). Miocene pollen (as Droserapollis and Droserapites) of somewhat uncertain droseracean affinity has been found in Taiwan (Huang, 1978). Several finds of Tertiary pollen (since Mid Miocene) from Europe have been assigned to either Drosera (Droserapollis) or Nepenthes (Droseridites, Krutzsch, 1985). However, there is little probability the recent species of Drosera existed in Europe before Pliocene (v.i.). Probably, the earlier fossils may be attributed to now extinct lines of Droseraceae or even other families. Anyway, the fossil record of Droseraceae pollen is the richest of any carnivorous plant family, and it testifies a wide distribution at least of the progenitors of Aldrovanda since Late Cretaceous. " And on the question of Antarctic _Nepenthes_: "Possibly of evolutionary significance is the fact that pollen originally assigned to Droseraceae (Droseridites) from the Kerguelen islands has been tentatively transferred to Nepenthes more recently (Krutzsch, 1985). In this context Droseridites parvus from the Mid Palaeocene of Assam (Sah & Dutta, 1974) should be considered as possible Nepenthes pollen. Fossil pollen assigned to Nepenthes has been discovered in the Mid Miocene of north Borneo (Anderson & Muller, 1975), and its presence here (a centre of recent diversity, cf. Schlauer, 2000) is not surprising. But the assignment of European Tertiary pollen to the same genus (Krutzsch, 1985) is at least as puzzling as the dubious Triphyophyllum seed from Siberia (v.i., recalling to some extent a similar discrepancy between fossil record and present distribution in Dipterocarpaceae and Clusiaceae)." ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:11:31 -0800 Subject: Re: CP Paleontology >Can anyone point me to an info source on CP evolution, palaeontology?? For >example, I'm curious about how Nepenthes managed to grow in >Madagascar. Also, I'd like to know if they ever grew in Antarctica. >Kevin Cook >Darwin >Australia Hi Kevin and all, To find such information you would have to look long and hard through journals. From time to time we do here discuss the subject. Last year before you joined was talk about an interesting one. A much televised discovery of a 20, 000 year old frozen wooly mammoth in Siberia was made a couple of years ago. Some scientists had the idea to clone this mammoth to resurrect the species. One of us :-) had a more feasible idea of locating frozen seed preserved in permafrost bogs to possibly bring back extinct CP. This is not really so farfetched, since seed of a few other plant species have in fact been found which were frozen for thousands of years, and these when planted sprouted. Most of us listees felt that nothing really unusual as far as unknown ice age CP species could be found in the arctic region, but Jan Schlauer suggested the best place to look might be Antarctica. Here is an update on the Jarkov Mammoth. On the televised show titled Raising the Mammoth on the Discovery Channel, apparently living plant material was found beneath the frozen mammoth. I saw the program and these too plants looked like some sort of sedge and the other maybe Selaginella. They certainly looked green and alive to me. Coming this March 12, again on the Discovery Channel, will be a program titled Land of the Mammoth. I'm hoping that the plant material found will be more discussed. I don't really expect Drosera, Pings, or Utrics, but this presents interesting food for thought. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:41:09 -0500 Subject: numbering hi everyone-- this may be a bit naive...but why not bar coding? it's logic defies linearity and is much more dynamic than a linear numbering system. gary kong __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: Randall Palmer Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:39:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cow So far so good with the dried stuff, from the cow. If you read about the Venus that came back from slimmy green to snappy and happy. I knew no more slimmy green ~ when the trap no longer looks like to much water ~ because of the dry cow manor you buy at the store ~ sprinkled on the plant ~ was so cool that I went and sprinkled it on all of my CPs. So as far as the plants look ~ looking for any unseen side effects ~ I think the perfect fertilizer has been found. For futher review ~ no gurantees. (My disclaimer) Cousin Clem ################### From: "Richard jobson" Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:27:47 -0000 Subject: D. regia Hi there Drosera growers, I am after D. regia. Can anybody help me out with obtaining this plant? Thanks in advance, Richard. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Andrew Gibbons Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:11:16 +1100 Subject: RE: CPalaeontology Sorry Kevin (and anyone else interested), My cut and paste ability must be lacking. The complete abstract is below: Truswell, E M. & Marchant, N G. (1986) Early Tertiary Pollen of Probable Droseracean Affinity from Central Australia. Special Papers in Palaeontology. 35:161-176. "Fischeripollis halensis sp. nov. is described from the Ulgnamba Lignite in the Hale River Basin, northeast of Alice Springs, central Australia. This unit, on the evidence of a diverse palynomorph assemblage, with some constraints provided by palaeomagnetic dating of deep-weathering profiles, is probably of Middle to Late Eocene age. Abundant rainforest taxa in the pollen spectrum suggest high, uniformly distributed rainfall. The similarity of F. halensis, which occurs either in single grains or in tetrads, to pollen of extant Droseraceae is evident in the proximo-equatorial ring of large apertures, and in the grain wall, which bears processes in two distinct size classes. The strongest resemblance is to pollen of extant Dionaea, the Venus Fly Trap, which occurs today only in the south-eastern United States. The presence of pores which penetrate directly into the main body of the grain, rather than into a system of radiating channels on the proximal face, suggests relationship with the Dionaea lineage rath -- Andrew Gibbons wrote -- > Kevin, Yes, there were giant venus flytraps but the size was later > found to be due to environment and cultivation as opposed to genetics > :-). Before you get excited I'll warn you that I work in the not very > cp related world of animal developmental biology so I am nowhere near > an expert in evolutionary biology. I did a quick search on > Bioabstracts and managed to pull up the following paper: Truswell, E > M. & Marchant, N G. (1986) Early Tertiary Pollen of Probable > Droseracean Affinity from Central Australia. Special Papers in > Palaeontology. 35:161-176. I don't have access to this Journal so I > can't tell you too much about the findings. The abstract is as > follows: "Fischeripollis halensis sp. nov. is described from the > Ulgnamba Lignite in the Hale River Basin, northeast of Alice Springs, > central Australia. This unit, on the evidence of a diverse > palynomorph assemblage, with some constraints provided by > palaeomagnetic dating of deep-weathering profiles, is probably of > Middle to Late Eocene age. Abundant rainforest taxa in the pollen > spectrum suggest high, uniformly distributed rainfall. The similarity > of F. halensis, which occurs either in single grains or in tetrads, to > pollen of extant Droseraceae is evident in the proximo-equatorial ring > of large apertures, and in the grain wall, which bears processes in > two distinct size classes. The strongest resemblance is to pollen of > extant Dionaea, the Venus Fly Trap, which occurs today only in the > south-eastern United States. The presence of pores which penetrate > directly into the main body of the grain, rather than into a system of > radiating channels on the proximal face, suggests relationsh! ip with > the Dionaea lineage rathe I don't know how these results were taken > within the appropriate scientific community. Given that sex and > development tend to be slower to evolve compaired to other > morphological and physiological processes and Australia already has a > high degree of Droseraceae representation, including the closely > related Aldrovanda, it may not be unthinkable that a prehistoric > flytrap existed in Australia. If it was indeed ancestral it would > imply Dionaea (or its ancestors) had a distribution over a number of > (future) continents. Conversely, the article may simply imply that > the species of Fischeripollis in question had some N.American > ancestry. I'm not familiar with this plant so I wouldn't attempt to > say either way. Hope this helps. Andrew ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:15:15 -0600 Subject: Re: D. burmannii versus sessilifolia FOODBAG@aol.com wrote: > swallows migrating with the coconuts > African swallows? ################### From: CMDodd@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:12:51 EST Subject: Re: Nepenthtes, climbing or hanging In a message dated 1/23/01 5:10:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: << I have been growing a few Nepenthes plants in my house by the window, hanging from the ceiling. The plants are healthy, growing and pitchering. Some of these plants have grown a lot, with vines hanging 2-3 feet below the pot. I have read that Nepenthes tendrils need to grab on something to climb. If I just let the vines hang, are they likely to brake off because of the weight (I have seen pictures of wild Nepenthes with vines hanging several feet)? What is likely to happen, given that there is nothing for the tendrils to climb on? Thanks in advance, Michael Pagoulatos >> Dear Michael, It is possible that plants can get so heavy from the weight of many pitchers that the vines can bend and crack, but they rarely break. Climbing vines are somewhat elastic to allow for movement of the supporting vegetation. You do not mention the species or hybird, but some plants like N. alata can produce great numbers of traps of considerable weight, but of modest size and with rather flexible stems. Others like N. rafflesiana have much stiffer stems and can crack more easily. Plants allowed to hang as you describe will often produce basal shoots near or below the soil level and then as the hanging stems age the plant may kill the hanging portion off (recycling nutrients) and produce larger new growth, eventually repeating the process again and again. When you see basals form and develop five to seven good leaves, you can always make cuttings of the hanging stems. The climbing stem of most species will still often produce the coiling tendril, and intermediate and upper pitcher forms even though the plant is not actually climbing. In some aroids like philodendrons, climbing (actually contact with a vertical surface) will produce upper leaf forms but I don't believe this is necessary with Nepenthes. Cliff ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:52:23 +1100 Subject: D. sessili(aliciae) New idea! Thanks for all the personal replies/thoughts. I've come to the next stage. I couldn't find a photo of my D. aliciae to put on my album but I will soon. I think that this sessiliflora plant I have could be a D. aliciae, purhaps the yellow-green leaf form? The other one (the real one) would be the green leaf form. I saw these two names in the CP total listing. Is this true? Greg ################### From: gbwong@iname.com (Geoff Wong) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:10:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: BACPS Meeting Meeting: Bay Area Carnivorous Plant Society Time: 12:00 Noon Place: Randall Museum, San Francisco Program: Ron Parsons: "Pings Plus..." For those in the San Francisco Bay Area, there will be a BACPS meeting on Saturday, February 3. Ron Parsons, a well-known local photographer, will be giving a slide show of botanical photos and discussing his indoor CP growing techniques. If you are not already on the BACPS Newsletter distribution list and want to receive future editions, please send a request to bill_weaver@hp.com. ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:03:33 -0500 Subject: Lowry prices Just double checking that Allan Lowry's prices in his catolog are in Australian dollars. Thanks David Atlanta ################### From: S.Ippenberger@t-online.de (Ippenberger) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:00:35 +0100 Subject: Re: D. regia Richard, I could send you seeds of D. regia I harvested last summer (August/September) and I made root-cuttings last week while repotting some of my plants that will make it to plantlets within the next three months. What are you interested in and where do you live? Best regards Stefan, Europe ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:06:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Lowry prices In message , Mellard, David writes > >Just double checking that Allan Lowry's prices in his catolog are in >Australian dollars. > Yes. You can pay him an equivalent rate in US Dollars cash using the current rate from American Express or Thomas Cook. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:06:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Pinguicula gigantea dormancy? Jay > >I have a nice young plant of this sp. that I obtained from last year that I >have growing in a mix of vermiculite and dolomite chips. I was somewhat >surprised to see that it continued to grow vigorously through early >December, even though most of my other neotropical Pings had long since >rosetted. I continued to water it cautiously through the end of December, at >which time (and at ca. 15 cm in diameter) it began to show rapid senescence >of most of the basal leaves. I stopped watering the plant, and it appears to >be in a state of suspended animation - the growing point and the youngest >leaves neither growing, nor drying up, nor is there any sign of iminent >flowering. > >Cud anyone on the list give me feedback on whether or not this is normal >winter behavior for this sp.? > P. gigantea is a close relative of P. agnata and like this species the plant does not form a non-carnivorous "dormant" state but does have a period of reduced growth and rosette size. So yes, this does sound like a normal growth patter for this species. In most Mexican Pinguicula species the term dormancy is mis-applied anyway since most species do not enter a true dormant state. Rather they enter a xerophytic state forming a tight rosette of non-carnivorous leaves. While in this state the plants continue to grow albeit at a very reduced rate. A few species produce a very tight rosette of leaves completely buried underground - very much like a bulb and may be considered to have a dormant state. Many species produce hairs on the surface of the xerophytic leaves the purpose of which is to trap moisture from early morning mists - virtually the only moisture the plants get at this season. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:09:31 +0100 Subject: New list online Hi CPers, I just want to announce that our new pricelist is online now both as a downloadable file and as entries in the CP-online-shop. Besides many price changes (lower prices) we now offer a variety of ant ferns (Lecanopteris) and some other news. If interested, just have a look. Bye Andreas ********************************* WISTUBA - Exotic Plants Mudauer Ring 227 68259 Mannheim Germany www.wistuba.com ********************************* ################### From: Mike Froese Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:41:26 -0600 Subject: Problem Earth worms? Hi CPers! I'm getting into composting household waste and was wondering whether anyone has had any problems with specific species of worms when feeding them to your plants. I've fed many sarr.'s the local species of earth worms here in Manitoba, Canada with no problems (they quite like them), but I was wondering if certain other species that tend to eat faster and are more aggressive would damage the traps while being digested. Any advice or experience to share? Mike ################### From: "Steve" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:10:53 -0600 Subject: How do I join the listserv? I would like to join and be able to post messages. Thanks Steven Strickland [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:37:02 -0200 Subject: RE: CPalaeontology and D. sessili(aliciae)/ burmannii and their origins To all, About ancient CPs and their fossils, there was a very good series of articles in CPN a few years back by John Degreef. As for D.sessili(aliciae)... > Well, since Fernando mentions that it is a South African Drosera, some idea of what it could be comes to mind. Besides for one of the many flat rosetted species from S. A., it could be a hybrid. The best way to tell is to post your photos, but even then some photos don't reveal the details needed for ID... Also, your plant may not be named yet. Some species are traded, but are not yet officially named. The taxonomy of "red rosetted thingies" in Africa is still quite confusing. Pay me a few years of botanizing in southern Africa and then I'll tell you what it is... :):):) >Sounds like you are suggesting that D. burmannii only made the trip once fairly recently, and that explains less diversity in S. America; very reasonable. I was thinking before that D. sessilifolia has been in S. America a very long time, but has been going back and forth over time and this is why both D. burmannii and D. sessilifolia are genetically compatible. I think it's much more likely that it made the trip only once, than that it went back and forth several times (can you imagine D.anglica jumping to Hawaii and back??). And if it was going back and forth over such a large distance, you'd imagine it would be doing at least the same thing in Australia and Asia, and thus the populations there would be morphologically more uniform as well. As far as I know, D.burmannii in Asia are rather uniform, suggesting that they also originated from Australia, where all the variability seems to occur. The populations have to be more or less isolated reproductively over long periods of time for diversity to occur. If they were jumping back and forth often, they would be exchanging DNA, making the populations overall more uniform. Isolation causes diversity, and eventually speciation. We know they are not reproductively isolated, since the various forms of D.burmannii and D.sessilifolia do seem to hybridize, so it can only be assumed that their isolation is geographic. And probably recent, since they have not yet become reproductively isolated. >Anyway, what course do you figure the plant travelled? Through Asia and across the Bering Straights to N. American and then south? Hey, I think I just figured it out! How about the species made the trip once during a narrow window of time 12, 000 years ago when the land bridge was open? Then why is it not present further N? Surely there are decent conditions for it in Central America and southern N.America. I believe instead that D.sessilifolia must have originated from a plant which hitched a ride with a bird or wind over the Pacific or maybe through Africa (though if it's present anywhere in Africa is still a mystery). Remember the seeds of these plants are very tiny. Furthermore, during the last ice age, most of Brazil was covered in savanas, while the rainforests were reduced to a few pockets. Savanas are the perfect habitat for D.sessilifolia, suggesting why it's so widespread nowadays. Once the ice age was through, rainforests seem to have isolated D.sessilifolia N and S of the Amazon. A single and recent colonizing event would help explain the uniformity of D.sessilifolia, having originated from a small genetic stock. Just look at the N.Hemisphere species like D.anglica and D.rotundifolia, how widespread and uniform they are. These are believed to have spread widely at the end of the last ice age, only a few thousand years ago. if I remember well. That's why there is not much diversity... yet. A few thousand years is apparently not enough for them to diversify into new species or even varieties, but given time... If there really is a D.burmannii form which is very similar or identical to D.sessilifolia, it could be an indication of where the D.sessilifolia stock came from. The good news is that the solution to this puzzle is within our reach, we have the technology to solve it! The genetic tools are there to test this!! If anybody is looking for a good project for a master or PhD thesis involving CP genetics and evolution, this is it. All you'd have to do is find one or more very variable genes to sequence or try some other genetic fingerprinting like AFLP or RAPD. The resulting phylogenetic tree would indicate which Australian (or Asian?) population was closest to D.sessilifolia. The more populations sampled, the better. It would even be possible to identify which are the most ancient branches in this group, i.e. the most "primitive" burmannii/ sessilifolia. It would be interesting to see on this family tree if D.sessilifolia represents an old branch inserted below all the present branches of D.burmannii, showing they had a common origin, but not exactly where or when... OR, if the D.sessilifolia branch is positioned in the middle of the D.burmannii branches, showing it originated from a branch of the tree still represented by living populations, with "older" and "younger" inserted above and below it. The latter would be my guess. Or else we'd expect to see the same variability with D.sessilifolia in S.America as we see with D.burmannii in Australia. Unless D.sessilifolia suffered a genetic bottleneck at some time recently, nearly going extinct, but then later recovering from the few remaining populations. I'm sure it would be really easy to obtain D.burmannii specimens from several different sites through our numerous CPers in Australia. I'm also sure someone in Asia could obtain at least one form from there too. And I'll be certainly willing to send a few specimens of D.sessilifolia from different locations too. All you need are dried leaves and often hebarium specimens are sufficient. Volunteers???? > That would be good to see if you could pick out any difference between that particular form of D. burmanni and D. sessilifolia. I remember how when you looked at my collection you instantly distinguished them and even my hybrid. This form from the Pilliga Scrub NSW I certainly could not tell from D. sessilifolia. It even had the pinkish tinted flower which is more typical in sessilifolia. I only have one photo print of a single plant and have no scanner. I'm sure Robert could scan some for you. I'll ask him. Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:58:31 -0200 Subject: Trinidad drosera and D.sessilifolia / burmannii again To all, > >Just so Paul does not have to do anything undignified like name a couple of > > Drosera species( :0), I looked it up and the two Drosera species are D. > >intermedia and D. kaieteurensis. FYI. > > And had I replied, I would have got it wrong! But just to step out of character for a second - the intermedia > are very nice (but still red and rosetty) and everywhere (or anywere that is wet enough)! Who cares about D.intermedia when you've got D.kaieteurensis to admire?!?!?! To put it in YOUR "language" Paul, it's like wasting time with a common P.moranensis (which is nonetheless beautiful) when you've got a P.antarctica nearby -- smaller, more or less common looking and certainly not as beauiful as P.moranensis, but much rarer and less understood! > >(right now in Santiago, Chile... and guess what I found over the weekend?!?!) > > Oh goodie goodie goodie! Surely all this excitement can't be for a red rosetty thing? I could almost start > getting excited! More on this later... I'd written all about it while in Chile (I just returned last night) but LOST THE MESSAGE while trying to mail it! Damn webmail! So I'll have to write it from scratch again.... > However, if anyone visits the Paramos of Venezuela/Colombia, I really would get excited about a quaint > little D, D, D (hang about, I've a problem with using this word), Drosera, that grows in them thar hills. Now > there's a statement noboday ever expected to get from me!!! Well believe it or not even I would be interestd in the P.... Ping.... Pinguic... Pinguicula (ah, finally!) which grow in the Venezuelan Andes (did you see the recent pictures by our Japanese friends??), not to mention the mysterious D.cendeensis which I am dying to see in the wild. But first, I think I would prefer to explore tepuy-land a bit more, where there are several unusual Drosera to study (whereas in the Andes there is possibly only D.cendeensis -- and recent Japanese visitors have not been able to find it...). > This may be true *within* S America, but is definitely not the case > from a global point of view. In contrast to the two species you > mentioned, there are three others that extend to N America, viz. _D. > intermedia_, _capillaris_, and _brevifolia_. Of these, the first also > occurs in the Old World, and therefore, this is the unchallenged, > most widespread of all S American _Drosera_. OBVIOUSLY, I meant *within* S.America! Picky, picky.... :):) > While I agree that _D. sessilifolia_ might have come from the East > (of Gondwana), humans do not need to have been involved (BTW: humans > did not exist when Gondwana was *one* continent!). And who says they spread over Gondwana? D.anglica sure didn't need a land bridge to reach Hawaii. And how many million years ago are we talking about, when they were all still connected? Surely if D.sessilifolia had been here so long we'd see more variability, considering how widespread it is, just as we see variability within D.burmannii in Australia. My gues is that they jumped over oceans much more recently. > The most striking > feature in the recent distribution of Thelocalyx is its apparent > lack in Africa, if it is assumed to be an old Gonwanan element (it > is quite certainly an old element in the genus: "primitive" pollen > type, 5 carpels). It might be an old Gondwanan element, but might not have left descendents elsewhere than in Australia, until a recent spread to Asia and S.America. A similar thing is seen with D.indica, which is widespread from Australia to Africa, yet most of the diversity seems to be within Australia. Herbarium I saw from Africa all seemed to represent a single form, very similar to plants I saw in Goa, India. In Asia one finds white and pink-fld forms, but not orange fls, or maroon plants, or such variation in plant size/robustness, or even those with the red cobra-like stamens Allen discovered in N Australia (and which I believe he'll probably separate as new species/varieties in the future). Again I think this suggests an Australian origin with recent spread elsewhere. And like D.sessilifolia/ burmannii, D.indica is mostly annual, which is probably an advantage for any new coloniser. > I have written "apparent" (for those who did not > notice it), because I think Planchon (1848) mentions a specimen of > _D. burmannii_ from Sierra Leone (W Africa)! This specimen (an > Afzelius collection) is not mentioned by Diels or Hamet nor by any > subsequent author. I have not seen the specimen (it might be at P or > K), so I do not really know what it is. > > It would perhaps be interesting (for our British or French > colleagues) to look for the Afzelius specimen and maybe (for those > who visit the region) to look for further specimens of strange > rosetted things in W Africa. No doubt!!! It would be great if one of the European CPers could go spend a day at Kew or Paris trying to uncover these African specimens and phtographing it for all of us. Of course there is always the problem of herbarium curator-bureaucrats who often won't let you in if you're not some famous botanist with good connections, when herbaria should be treated like any other library, open to anyone who wishes to study its archives. I never had too much problem, including during my brief visits to both Kew and Paris several years back (before I knew about these Afzelius specimens), since I wrote beforehand and had contacts there. And I guess because it would be more difficult to say "NO" to someone coming from another continent, even when your contact is not there (which is often the case). So if someone does take up the idea to try and uncover these Afzelius specimens, be sure to try and contact the curators at these institutions first. Furthermore, these places are often "temporarily closed for visitation" for one reason or another (usually reform) -- another reason to inform yourself before appearing at the door. > I read with interest the theory regarding the introduction of Drosera > burmannii to Sth America by Australian migrants. Before this becomes blown out of proportion accidentally: it's a joke, it's NOT real. These aussies came to S.America AFTER D.sessilifolia was discovered. OK???? Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:00:06 -0200 Subject: Numbering again To all, > Sounds like this is a job for Super..., I mean ICPS. Maybe they could > propose a universal numbering system. Isn't it great that we have a bunch > of dedicated volunteers that little folks can propose things to. > That way, all of us who want to do this can use the same system. No universal numbering system is necessary. Everyone could make his own, using his/her name/initials plus a number. For example I could label my seeds: _Drosera graminifolia_ Diamantina, Minas Gerais state, Rivadavia 1013 _Genlisea uncinata_ Catoles, Bahia state, Rivadavia 908 _Utricularia campbelliana_, Pico da Neblina, Amazonas state, Rivadavia et al. 649 The numbers would correspond (they're ficticious in this case) to my herbarium specimens, which are all deposited here at the University of Sao Paulo. If anybody was REALLY interested, they could look them up. If not, then just the number itself and collector would be sufficient to identify the plants in cultivation as having a common origin. Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:01:41 -0200 Subject: Sarracenia evolution and survival To all, > > He has found plants of S. flava > > growing in a semi-dormant state in the summer. The plant were growing in > > well developed planted (not natural) pine forest and had plenty of non- > > carnivorous phylodia leaves but no pitchers. Randy estimates the age of > > the pine trees to be about fifteen years. The assumption is that > > probably for the first five years the Sarracenia were able to grow more > > or less normally before the trees grew tall enough to block out the > > sunlight. Therefore the plants had probably been in this "dormant" state > > for the remainder of the time until Randy had found the plants. He > > removed a plant to see if it would revert to normal growth once given > > sufficient light - it did. In August I was in Florida with Bob McMorris and one of the wonderful Sarracenia sites we visited was full of huge S.leucophylla with extra wide "mouths". Next to these was a shady area full of S.leuco growing under trees (natural, not planted). There were only phyllodia, thousands of them all over. One or two sickly pitchers maybe. Call it what you want, semi-dormancy or whatever, but they were "existing" if you don't want to call that normal survival. I've see that with other CPs here in Brazil, where they were growing in less than optimal conditions and were apparently only hanging on, growing really ugly, but nonetheless surviving. So how long Sarracenia can grow as phyllodia only I guess depends on how much nutrition it can get from the soil to supplement photosynthesis. Maybe in shadier conditions such as the ones above, maybe the extra organic matter from the dead tree leaves and the possibly drier (less acidic?) soil permit the phyllodia-state plants to absorb more nutrients through their roots than plants growing in the more open, boggier (more acidic?) areas. > > I suspect that at least some Sarracenia species are able to make this > > change in growth type as a means of survival when conditions > > deteriorate. It is likely that this was originally a means of surviving > > periods of drought and in fact I saw this sort of shut down in growth > > last fall in the south where the area had been subject to very low > > rainfall throughout the area last summer. Many areas of S. leucophylla > > were observed with nothing but phylodia growth. At other areas plants > > had produced fall pitchers but these were reduced in height. The most > > interesting areas were plants that had apparently aborted all pitcher > > growth in favour of seed production. > I agree. Waiting for some kind of disturbance, such as fire. Although > this can get a lot more complicated. In natural systems, even in the > absence of frequent fire, you can get small natural gaps with full sun > surrounded by much more shaded plants. Exactly! This sounds like the perfect strategy to survive droughts or periods of years inbetween natural fires when the vegetation gets too thick. > > that has puzzled me for some time now is how the apparently related > > genera of Sarracenia, Heliamphora and Darlingtonia became so widely > > dispersed from one another? There are apparently impenetrable barriers > > separating the populations - mountains, deserts and sea! Of course these > > barriers may be geologically recent events but even so the distance > > between these genera is impressive on its own. Add to that the fact that > > the tepuis are very ancient pieces of uplifted sandstone and have their > > origins in Africa. Nothing unusual about this, especially if you consider how many millions of years ago these 3 genera had a common ancestor. Surely lots has happened since, climate-wise at least. Maybe they originated in S.America, maybe in N, or maybe even outside the Americas but left no living relatives elsewhere. Just look at Aldrovanda and Dionaea. One occurs in the new world and the other in the old world. Where did they originate, where was their common ancestor? The related fossil pollen of Fischeripollis halensis is from Australia. Who knows?! One could go on and on speculating about this, but there is certainly nothing unusual about the geographic isolation of the 3 Sarraceniaceae genera, especially if you consider that there are SPECIES which are more geographically isolated, like U.gibba, which is widespread throughout the tropics, or D.rotundifolia which is widespread in the N Hemisphere, or N.mirabilis which seems to like island hopping. If a species can make it across oceans and continents, than certainly genera can eventually be separated by time and evolution across the same barriers. Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:41:00 +0000 Subject: D. linearis Hi, I have some seed of D. linearis that needs sowing soon (while its still cold). Does anyone have any direct experience of suitable soils to use for this species, or am I in true experimental country? Having seen the marl bogs for myself I would be very surprised if they would even germinate in anything based on regular peat. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:56:33 -0500 Subject: Re: How do I join the listserv? check out this site. http://www2.labs.agilent.com/botany/cp/html/cp_lstsv.htm Michael Manna >From: "Steve" >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: How do I join the listserv? >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:19:26 -0800 (PST) > >I would like to join and be able to post messages. Thanks Steven >Strickland > >[HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: "Chris Hind" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 20:03:13 -0800 Subject: on nepenthes here is a perplexing question... how do you keep ants away from nepenthes when they have glads to attract them? I'm getting fed up with scale. Those bastardly argentine ants constantly cover one species of my nepenthes with scale (samia says anamensis others say mirabilis). I dont have time to swap its leaves with qtips anymore. Anyone else have any suggestions as how to combat this problem? also what are people's successes/failures with using pure perlite? I've been considering making a switch to pure perlite with a fine layer of peat or live sphagnum on top of rooted nepenthes cuttings. Is this a decent way to grow nepenthes? I was growing tired of them rotting in the pot with the peat. i was also wondering if perlite may be my solution to the ants as well. See they seem to enjoy nesting in the pot once they realize the plant feeds them. Will they or will they not nest in perlite? ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 05:00:13 EST Subject: Re: Now is the time to renew or join the ICPS! Hello everybody! this is a little reminder that now is the ideal time to renew your ICPS membership, or join. If you get your form in the first week of February there will be no interruption in your CPN, and you'll get your March issue right on time. If you're not now a member, why not join. You'll get four issues of the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter, your best source for information on horticulture, botany, and happenings in the CP world; your membership helps support this listserver, our award winning website, and the ICPS conservation initiatives. You'll also be able to order seed from the ICPS seedbank. To join just fill out one of the forms available at : < http://www.carnivorousplants.org/join/joinnew.html > When you send your form in, include $20 U.S. for those in the U.S.A, Canada, and Mexico; $25 U.S. for all other countries. I'm very happy to report that Cindy Slezak, our new secretary, has made major changes in the whole membership process, and she has eliminated all the problems that used to delay enrollment. The CPN back issues have been moved and reorganized and we now fulfill those orders very quickly too. Regular readers already know that John Brittnacher has adopted the ICPS Seedbank and you can view its contents at the ICPS website : < http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/seedmain1.html > The ICPS will be making great strides in the year 2001; be a part of it! Thank you, and Cheers, David O. Gray ICPS President ################### From: david ahrens Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:16:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ants on Nepenthes There is an old remedy for ants that you could use to get rid of them. Mix one part borax with one part icing sugar, when you want to use this, mix with a little water to form a cream. The ants will take this back to their nest and it will destroy it completely, with no harm to anything else. I would just like to mention that in the UK, we are not allowed to use a chemical in the garden unless it is approved, but these ingredients are used in an ant destroyer that you can buy, I think that is unlikely that the police will turn up at your house! Regards David Ahrens ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:38:39 +1100 Subject: D. burmanni 'Pilliga Red' Hi all Now that I have that photo page going I can add a photo of the Pilliga Red form for those who wish to see it, unless someone is able to produce one in the next 5 days. Unfortunately I have just had printed a roll of film (no digital camera) so will have to take the photos and have them printed before adding them to the album. There is two D. burmanni photos on there from other locations if anyone is interested. I did add a photo of D. pygmaea with SEVEN petals!!! today. This was the only flower seen with more than four petals, on recent field trips around Sydney. Let me know what you think. Thanks Greg Bourke EDITOR/SEED BANK MANAGER for the Carnivorous Plant Society of New South Wales Check out the web page @ www.carnivorousplants.asn.au email the society @ carnivorousplantsnsw@hotmail.com My Photos @ http://photos.yahoo.com/sydneycarnivorous ################### From: S.Ippenberger@t-online.de (Ippenberger) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:43:46 +0100 Subject: D. linearis Hi, I have germinated D. linearis this spring more or less successfully. In autumn 1999 I obtained a few seeds (thank you again!). Half of the seeds I sowed onto a mixture of 50/50 peat/(quarz)sand, the other half onto a 1cm layer of sphagnum knowing that this is not the natural medium. Leaving the pots outside they were frozen down to -15C several times. In spring 2000 some seedlings germinated and made clearly visible winterbuds in autumn 2000 though their growth rate was much behind the other three European Droseras in my outdoor bog. I think about repotting them this spring. Any comments for a better growth medium? Stefan ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:26:09 -0000 Subject: Fraud warning OK. Hoping this is not a variation on the old false virus warning , here's a warning to all who have been bidding for CP antique prints and may then pay by Pay Pal. "Paypal account holders have been receiving an email that says someone has paid them money. The name usually used is Betty Hill. There is a link provided to log in to their account and collect the money. The web page that comes up looks like paypal. The victim then enters their ID and password. That is the purpose of the scam. The victim is NOT on the paypal site but on a look-alike. They have now given their id and password to a crook who will then log in to their paypal account and take whatever they can. If you get this email, do NOT use the link to go to your account. Always enter the URL yourself or pull it down from your favorites. If you have already gone to the fake Paypal from the email, go to the real one and change your password immediately. Check that there are no unfamiliar transactions." I've only sent this to this listserve because I know CP'ers do bid for CP related stuff off eBay and may well being using the eBay Pay Pal service. Now you've been warned! Let me know if anyone knows this is a false warning. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:57:43 -0000 Subject: Trinidad drosera and D.sessilifolia / burmannii again Have you noticed that even the true botanists are now referring to Drosera as "red rosetted thingies"?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! meanwhile, a certain person wrote: " Who cares about D.intermedia when you've got D.kaieteurensis to admire?!?!?! To put it in YOUR "language" Paul, it's like wasting time with a common P.moranensis (which is nonetheless beautiful) when you've got a P.antarctica nearby -- smaller, more or less common looking and certainly not as beauiful as P.moranensis, but much rarer and less understood!" Touche! Actually, when i realised that I'd actually spent many a happy hour squashing millions of D.kaieteurensis plants underfoot in Trinidada, I breathed a heavy sigh! Despite all my printed words, i'm perfectly capable of admiring a rarity and D.kaieteurensis is certainly not another spatulata. So the joke is on me this time! >(whereas in the Andes there is possibly >only D.cendeensis -- and recent Japanese visitors have not been able to find >it...). Nobody ever finds it. The herbarium at Merida has it but no-one recorded exactly from where! They've been out to find it again and can never remember where it is. The truth is out there, somewhere, but I've tried looking for the thing which is about .75 cm big and grows in black soil smothered in long grass!!! Not an easy thing to find! Oops - please would everyone disregard any suggestion that I actually did go looking for a red rosetty thingy!!! :-) Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: "Steve" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:12:20 -0600 Subject: New member with a question on S.flava. Hello fellow cpers, My name is Steven Strickland and am an avid grower of cp. I live in west central Alabama. I do have a question. Does anyone know where I can purchase an "all red" Sarracenia flava? It is sometimes called (accurate or inaccurate?) "Claret" in Europe I believe. I have most of the other varieties of S.flava. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have S.flava "Red tube" or "Rubricorpora". Thanks you very much! Steve [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Steve" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:19:10 -0600 Subject: new to listserv with a S.flava Question. Hello fellow cpers, My name is Steven Strickland and am an avid grower of cp. I live in west central Alabama. I do have a question. Does anyone know where I can purchase an "all red" Sarracenia flava? It is sometimes called (accurate or inaccurate?) "Claret" in europe I believe. I have most of the other varieties of S.flava. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have S.flava "Red tube" or "Rubricorpora". Thanks you very much! Steve [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:34:39 -0500 Subject: Greenhouse construction Hello everyone, I have a question about greenhuose coverings(roof). I am going to purchase a hard plastic covering for my greenhouse I am building. What I have decided on is Palruf or Suntuf. I am not using sheet plastic(visquine) because we all have to keep some kind of look that doesn't upset our spouses. My question is : How important is 'harmful' UV to CPs? (The wording on the package is calling them harmful in respect to humans, not plants) One type of plastic omits them almost 100% while the other says it is good for UV protectioon. I do not want to deny my cps any type of light since this will be outside. Does anyone use this stuff on their houses? What is sheet plastic made of? Does it omit UV? More that one question I know, Thanks Michael Manna _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:08:31 +0100 Subject: Re: D. linearis Hi Phil, my plants germinated on pure peat. D. Schnell reports on his book that in cultivation they can be grown on pure peat or on acid peat/sand mix. I found it is true and after a few years, having started from seed, I succeeded in having one flowering plant last year. Schnell reports it can grow in shallow water if it is not acid: in fact I had my best plant growing outdoors on pure peat and when last spring I watered it too much and the water level stayed high for several days the plant rotted. It grew in full sun together with D. anglica, D. rotundifolia, D. intermedia and D. x obovata, none of which suffered from the high water level; so I supposed the acidity was the cause. It seems however it is not a very difficult plant to grow: slightly more difficult than D. anglica, but very far from D. arcturi and D. stenopetala! Kindest regards Filippo Tassara ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:08:41 +0100 Subject: Aldrovanda and Dionaea >Just look at Aldrovanda and Dionaea. One occurs in the new world >and the other in the old world. Where did they originate, where was their >common ancestor? This argument appears from time to time; but is there any study which proves that Aldrovanda and Dionaea both originated from a same plant with closing traps? Couldn't they have originated from the genus Drosera (or what it was in the past) in different times? Aldrovanda and Dionaea do not seem very similar apart from their way of catching prey. Filippo Tassara ################### From: Robin Dauber Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:59:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: BUGS! Happy New Year(?) everyone, I know this topic has been covered a thousand times, but I just spent my Sunday unpotting and blasting with water a variety of succulents invaded by Mealy bugs. What really works? I've been using alcohol swabs...I suspect the reason things got this bad. I want to avoid pesticides if at all possible, so as not to release even more half-life garbage into the world. I am weighing just throwing out plants and helping to keep the nursery business going, but losing some of these would be a shame...a couple of older Ariocarpus among them. I plan to keep these bare root, check bi-weekly, and blast with water weekly. I guess my questions are as follows; Will a watered down alcohol spray covering the whole plant help? Will it damage the plant? Is inhaling it just as bad as pesticide anyway? Dish soap? Insecticidal soap? Do either work if you miss a single square centimeter of surface area? What about predatorial bugs? Are they practical pricewise? Available? How often do they need to be reapplied? Can they be released indoors without them turning up in my bed and shorts? Where on earth do they come from?! I have heard Africa to the Caribbean and up into the Southern US. Are they naturalized to the Midwest of North America...Do I reinfect every summer when I place my plants outside? Maybe if we knew where they were native to, we could combat them more easily. Anyway, any ideas are appreciated, John in Chicago ################### From: Andrew Gibbons Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:02:26 +1100 Subject: RE: CPalaeontology Kevin, Sorry again. My PC doesn't want to co-operate. Hopefully the part of the abstrat that was cut out will appear below: The presence of pores which penetrate directly into the main body of the grain, rather than into a system of radiating channels on the proximal face, suggests a relationship with the Dionaea lineage rather than with that of Drosera. F.halensis, however, differs differs in detail from the pollen of extant Dionaea muscipula. This is the oldest occurrence of this pollen morphotype. ################### From: "Wubs" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:28:43 -0500 Subject: D. Linearis Hi, Phil! Back in the 1970's, I was a "guru" of Ontario CPs. Adrian Slack (see the acknowledgement for JIM KOROLAS) even got my input on S. purpurea purpurea and D. linearis. As to growing D. linearis (and germinating seeds of): Adults and seeds thrive in 75% peatmoss and 25% sand. Seeds: Keep them on the drier side of damp (I guess we could say moist). Make sure you freeze them solid for at least 4 weeks (though I often froze mine for 3 months). Then, they need to stay cold for at least 6 weeks (8 would be better). After you take them out of the fridge, let them sit in a nice and sunny location with at minimum 5 hours of direct exposure. You should see your babies in about 3 weeks and they should be really noticable after 4 weeks. Adults (and about a month after seeds germinate): Wet. Really, really, damp. Excessively moist. Did I emphasize that the should not be anything other than wet? I used a plastic container (an old cottage cheese tub) with a hole punched in the bottom with a small nail (about a 1/4 of an inch wide) and left this in a saucer. I'd water the plant until water seeped out. Then I'd leave it standing that way until the water in the saucer evaporated and I would top it up. Hope this helps! -jk [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Brewer Charles E PHDN Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 08:19:47 -0500 Subject: RE: New member with a question on S.flava. Steve, Try contacting Phil Sheridan. He has everything you can think of in regards to Sarrs. His email address is as follows: www.pitcherplant.org . Good luck, Charles Brewer > Does anyone know where I can purchase an "all > red" Sarracenia flava? It is sometimes called (accurate or > inaccurate?) "Claret" in Europe I believe. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: NAVSEA CDSA Dam Neck email addresses have changed to 'user@navseadn.navy.mil'. Please update your address books accordingly. ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:36:31 EST Subject: New e-mail address Hi Everyone, Hope it is a excellent new year for all CP growers everywhere. Just wanted to drop a note saying I changed my e-mail address, and I can be reached at this new address for all CP related stuff. If you know me(sorry), make a change to your address book. If you don't know me, feel free to e-mail me and say "hi." Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:14:30 +0000 Subject: Re: D. linearis Many thanks to everyone who replied to my D. linearis question. It seems that the consensus of experience is that this species will grow okay on a peat and sand mix. Having seen where they grow in habitat I find this quite surprising, especially as there are plenty of acid peat bogs in the area as well but not a single D. linearis grows there. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: John Milligan Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:34:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [Fat-Plants] BUGS! At 04:59 PM 28/01/01 -0600, Robin Dauber wrote, in part: >I know this topic has been covered a thousand times, but I just spent my >Sunday unpotting and blasting with water a variety of succulents invaded by >Mealy bugs. What really works? I've been using alcohol swabs...I suspect the >reason things got this bad. [snip] Mealy bug infestations are really a chronic problem for those who keep a variety of plants and continue to get new ones. In my experience, it is impossible to kill them completely with any procedure, but I get reasonable control by alternate spraying with soap solutions (1% by weight of any soft potassium salt soap is OK - it should not be scented and I like the soft laundry soaps the best - if in doubt, use Safer's) and then alternate with an alcohol/ammonia/water mix. (I use denatured ethanol and household ammonia - 1 part each by volume with three parts water). Rubbing alcohol (propanol) also will work. I think Wood alcohol (methanol) is too toxic to spray indoors. I have also used cheap vodka or cheap brandy, appropriately diluted. 20% alcohol solutions will not burn but higher concentrations can be ignited and over 50% in water can explode!! when it is sprayed near a source of ignition. I spray the whole plant and wash off the soap solution with a water spray. For fleshy plants in dire straits you can dip them into very hot water (50 -55 deg C) for no more than two minutes. Use a timer!! and then dip them immediately into ice water for a minute or two to cool them. This works for me about half the time. This Spring, I am trying a spray of carnivorous nematodes on a batch of infested Cactus that are in cold storage for the winter. I will apply it just before I start warming them up. I'll get back if it seems to work. And relax - when computers try to take over the world, mealy bugs will be there, well adapted to eat some organic component on them and possibly save humankind [b-)] - John * John Milligan, 3 Windsor St., Kingston, ON, Canada, K7M 4K4 | Tel (613)389-2747 | US Zone 4/5 * ################### From: "Steve Klitzing" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:01:34 -0800 Subject: Fossil CP's in Siberia Hi: This week, a scientific expedition in Siberia found evidence of carnivorous plants in Siberia. A team of six university students were led to an outcropping in the ice. After using a portable generator and blow dryers, they discovered the frozen remains of the largest Nepenthes anyone has ever seen. Apparently, it had traps nearly twelve feet long and nine feet wide. They concluded that Siberia had at one time been entirely tropical. And, they now know why the Woolly Mammoths had disappeared. In one of the frozen traps, they found the remains of a juvenile Woolly Mammoth - still asleep after it had fallen into the trap and had been drugged. The trap apparently contained small carrots, alfalfa, apples, bananas, and marijuana, which the plant had symbiotically manufactured to lure the hairy elephants. In another trap, they were startled to discover three frozen Neantherthal teenagers who had ignored the carrots, alfalfa, apples, and bananas, and had gone straight for the marijuana. The scientists now believe the disappearance of the Woolly Mammoths and the Neanderthals may be linked. A third trap was partially decomposed but revealed even more - a cro-Magnon skull, a submachine gun, two hand grenades, a cannister of mustard gas, and a stinger missile. This discovery means that early proto-humans may have been much more violent and scientifically advanced than previously thought. And, it could very well mean that we are genetically pre-disposed to inventing weapons of mass destruction, letting us all off the hook for the past six thousand years of negative behavior. The university team plans to send another expedition to Antarctica next year. Says one of the students "Now that we've seen this, there could be anything under the Ross Ice Shelf!" ---Steve Klitzing ################### From: Walter Hafner Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:56:37 +0100 (CET) Subject: bud descriptions? Hi list, as we all know, bugs, fungi etc are a everlasting topic in the CP list. Since my english is not very good, I often have problems to translate the names of the several pests. Is there a website that explains the several bugs (common names, images etc.)? Or could anyone give me a list with german translations? e.g., what is a "mealy bug"? :-) -Walter ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:21:40 -0500 Subject: Re: bud descriptions? Walter, Attached is a picture, The large black insect is a Crypt, a beneficial insect predator that eats mealybugs. The little white fuzzy insects are the mealybugs. I'm sure someone can better answer your question, about what mealybugs are, but I know that they are insects that suck the plants sap. Michael >From: Walter Hafner >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: bud descriptions? >Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:06:06 -0800 (PST) > >Hi list, > >as we all know, bugs, fungi etc are a everlasting topic in the CP >list. Since my english is not very good, I often have problems to >translate the names of the several pests. > >Is there a website that explains the several bugs (common names, images >etc.)? Or could anyone give me a list with german translations? > >e.g., what is a "mealy bug"? :-) > >-Walter _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com [JPEG or GIF file mastergardening_1617_29908392.jpg deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:13:16 -0500 Subject: Bug Descriptions Hello Walter, Your English is fine. Much better than my German! Mealybugs are "scale" insects in the order Homoptera, including several families, one of which is _Pseudococcidae_. There are many lists that deal in Entomology. I am not an Entomologist. If you try IPM (Integrated Pest Management) or the German equivalent, there are many groups worldwide that have very informative internet web rings. I hope this helps. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, Florida, USA > as we all know, bugs, fungi etc are a everlasting topic in the CP > list. Since my english is not very good, I often have problems to > translate the names of the several pests. > > Is there a website that explains the several bugs (common names, images > etc.)? Or could anyone give me a list with german translations? > > e.g., what is a "mealy bug"? :-) > > -Walter ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:00:10 -0800 Subject: Re: Aldrovanda and Dionaea >>This argument appears from time to time; but is there any study which proves that Aldrovanda and Dionaea both originated from a same plant with closing traps? Couldn't they have originated from the genus Drosera (or what it was in the past) in different times? Aldrovanda and Dionaea do not seem very similar apart from their way of catching prey. Filippo Tassara Consider the chromosome counts; Aldrovanda 2n = 48, Dionaea 2n = 32. The basic number in common is 8. Aldrovanda is a hexaploid, 6 X 8 = 48. Dionaea is a tetraploid, 4 X 8 = 32. Remember the ploidy rule; the higher ploidy in a line of lineage is more recent. Aldrovanda is then younger and more probably evolved from or split off from the proto-Dionaea line more recently. So most probable is the line beginning with Drosera to Dionaea and then Aldrovanda. This is my own theory which you will not find in literature. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:15:05 EST Subject: Re: #%*~/&#*! mealybugs Hello Walter and everyone, I couldn't find any site that provides translations of common names of plant pests into different languages. Perhaps someone else will know of one. I'm sure if you've been growing plants for any length of time you've met mealybugs. They are a small, but easily visible, soft-bodied, sucking insects that are covered in a white waxy coating, which makes them look as if they have been dusted in flour, hence the name "mealy"-bug. The most common types are of the genus _Pseudococcus_. The cochineal insect is a mealy bug of cactus, and gives us a red dye of the same name. I've grown Hoyas for many years and have lots of ( too much ) experience with these difficult pests. For real control, I find rubbing alcohol ( isopropyl ) useless, and far too time consuming besides. It might work if you have a new infestation with just a few individual bugs, but don't count on it. They usually cluster in the axils of the leaves and stems and anyplace else that gives them some shelter. They will hide inside the pitchers of carnivorous plants. Mealybugs breed very quickly and their offspring quickly colonize the roots of plants too. Any time you find mealies, you should pull the plant out of the pot and inspect for signs of the pest on the roots. These root infestations mean that there are always more bugs to re-infest the upper parts of the plant. Mealybugs have been a greenhouse pest for so long that they have developed resistance to common pesticides. This explains why they reoccur so frequently. The only effective control I have found for mealies on Hoyas are granular systemic insecticides. These systemics are hideously toxic; you should not use them if you have children of pets that might have access to the treated plants. After applying them to the soil you should not touch the soil without gloves for a number of months. While this treatment sounds pretty drastic, I have never found anything else that really works to eliminate the stubborn little pests. Systemics vary in their plant toxicity. I have not tried the systemics on carnivorous plants and cannot say if they might cause serious damage. I would not try them on _Drosera_ or _Pinguicula_, but might experiment on _Nepenthes_ and _Sarracenia_ that I didn't value highly. Alternate treatments for mealybugs control include biological control with a predatory beetle, _Cryptolaemus_ and various parasitic wasps. Neither provide complete eradication. You might try submerging the whole plant under water for a few days. While in Hawaii recently, I saw mealybugs bigger than an American penny ( about 2 cm. across ). I guess we should count our blessings that we just have to deal with the little ones. Cheers, David in San Francisco, where its sunny, breezy, and 52 deg. F. ( 11 C. ) ################### From: "J. Chris Coppick " Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:43:04 -0800 Subject: Re: Bug Descriptions Here's one decent pest site that I've found. Lots of pictures... http://www.laters.com/bugs.htm Hope this helps. Chris ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:10:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some cool photos---tooting my own horn! Hey folks, I just posted a few new cool-o photos to my web site. Some of them included 2-flash images at 3--5 X of aquatic subjects. Definitely a challenge for me! You can see the photos at my photo web site (www.sarracenia.com/galleria/galleria.html) or look at the following photos directly: www.sarracenia.com/photos2/avesi03.jpg ---Aldrovanda turion in U. inflata www.sarracenia.com/photos2/avesi04.jpg ---Aldrovanda turion in U. inflata www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ghisp03.jpg ---Genlisea trap stomach www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ghisp04.jpg ---Genlisea trap branch www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ghisp05.jpg ---Genlisea trap tube www.sarracenia.com/photos2/uinfl06.jpg ---U. inflata trap www.sarracenia.com/photos2/uinfl07.jpg ---U. inflata trap Less technically complex but still satisfying are: www.sarracenia.com/photos2/dangl02.jpg ---D. anglica waking up www.sarracenia.com/photos2/naris01.jpg ---N. aristolochioides What do you think? Later! Barry --------------------- Dr. Barry Meyers-Rice bazza@sarracenia.com Carnivorous Plant FAQ--author www.sarracenia.com/faq.html Carnivorous Plant Newsletter--editor www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Phillip Crane Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 03:34:27 -0600 Subject: stock photos? Hello: I'm in the process of looking for good photography of a variety of CPs for commercial purposes. I was curious to know if any members of this list ever sell rights to their personal photos or have 'stock' photos of CPs. If anyone is interested in the sale of rights to use their photos for commercial purposes, please contact me. Thanks, Phillip ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:07:06 -0500 Subject: Barry's photo's Hello Barry, I'm very impressed with your Photo's! Do you ever share your techniques? I have found aquatic specimens challenging, and have not ever accomplished the clarity you have. It looks like N. aristolochioides is growing in Sphagnum, and doing well! Take care, Steven Stewart ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:55:40 +0000 Subject: _Aldrovanda_ and _Dionaea_ Dear Ivan, > Consider the chromosome counts; Aldrovanda 2n = 48, Dionaea 2n = 32. The > basic number in common is 8. This is only a part of the whole (published) story. There are in fact three different counts (30, 32, and 33) for _Dionaea_, and two (38 and 48) for _ Aldrovanda_ (for references, see cp db). 30= 2x3x5 (diploid with base 15 or triploid, base 10) 32=2x2x2x2x2 (diploid, base 16 or tetraploid, base 8) 33=3x11 (triploid, base 11) 38=2x19 (diploid, base 19) 48=2x2x2x2x3 (diploid, base 24 or tetraploid, base 12 or triploid, base 16 or hexaploid, base 8) And all these possible (but certainly not equally realistic) interpretations do not yet consider chromosome loss, fusion, or fragmentation (which is quite common in some species of _Drosera_) or simply wrong counts (that may occasionally occur). A considerable number of fossil species of _Aldrovanda_ is known (from fossil seeds), forming progressive series as well as extinct side branches, so _A. vesiculosa_ is quite certainly not a direct descendant of any representative of the recent genera _Drosera_ or _Dionaea_. > Remember the ploidy rule; the higher ploidy in a line of lineage > is more recent. This simple rule applies *only* to ploidy series within a group of closely related species of fairly recent divergence, and quite probably not to genera as distinct from each other as _A._ & _D._. > Aldrovanda is then younger and more probably evolved from > or split off from the proto-Dionaea line more recently. Maybe, but even _Aldrovanda_ is probably (if the fossil attributions are correct) at least of Upper Cretaceous age (=very old for flowering plants). > So most probable is the line beginning with Drosera to > Dionaea and then Aldrovanda. The conclusion may in fact be correct (especially the assumption that _Drosera_ is the oldest genus). But I doubt the (oversimplified) premises, and would rather base this theory on the number of recent species, sections, and subgenera, and their global distribution. Chromosome counts of "outgroups" like _Drosophyllum_ (12=2x2x3), _Triphyophyllum_ (24=2x2x2x3, and 32=2x2x2x2x2), and _Nepenthes_ (80=2x2x2x2x5), could possibly support a number of several conflicting theories, as the assumedly primitive species of _Drosera_ (a genus of quite crucial importance for Droseraceae evolution) have counts of 34 (=2x17!! _D. regia_), 22 (=2x11, _D. glanduligera_), 20 (=2x2x5, _D. arcturi_, _D. burmannii_), or 12 (=2x2x3, _D. petiolaris_, _D. banksii_). > This is my own theory which you will not find in literature. You will find it (or at least parts of it) in the papers you have written yourself (e.g. in CPN). Chromosome counts are not always very informative (or are they?): _Sarracenia_ (26=2x13) _Darlingtonia_ (30=2x3x5) _Heliamphora_ (42=2x3x7) Genetic comparison has led to a phylogenetic reconstruction with _Darlingtonia_ branching first, whereas most morphologists considered _Heliamphora_ to be the most primitive genus in Sarraceniaceae... Kind regards Jan ################### From: Charles Bigelow Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:19:42 -0800 Subject: mealybug control Hi all, I find infestations of mealybugs on orchids and CPs that I grow indoors, especially in enclosed terraria or wardian cases. The mealybugs are much less prevalent on orchids and CPs (mostly Nepenthes) that I grow outside. After trying various insecticides (pyrethrins and similar), I settled on Neem oil and Neem extracts like BioNeem (containing Azadirachtin), after hearing from an orchid grower that Neem gives good results against mealybugs in Paphiopedilum collections and doesn't appear to harm the orchids. Either concoction gives good control though not total eradication. I remove the most obvious mealybugs by hand, using a swab and alcohol, or a swab and dilute Neem solution, and then spray the plants and the surface of their growing medium. This treatment will last a month or sometimes longer until I see evidence of a few new mealybugs. If I spray every two weeks, I never see the bugs. Presumably a few are still lurking, and the population will rebound if I stop spraying, but I think indoors, a careful Neem spray regimen could eliminate the bugs. I sprayed the plants in one Wardian case every two weeks for two months, and haven't seen any mealybugs for six months. In another case, I spray only occasionally, and the bugs come back. Hmm. Neem is a tropical tree that is highly touted as having "natural" or "organic" insecticidal and anti-fungal properties. (Of course, many "natural" plant extracts are very dangerous, like strychnine or ricin.) Anyway, the Neem oil is pressed from the seeds, and the extract taken from the oil. Its main ingredient is an insect growth regulator, azadiractin, though the oil has a brew of various and sundry other biologically active compounds. The labeling has a Caution warning. It is classified in Toxicity Class IV - relatively non-toxic. The undiluted oil can be irritating to eyes and skin, and for those is in class III, slightly toxic. Neem's main drawback, in my opinion, is that it smells like rotten garlic. That's why I don't spray it as often on the fragrant orchids in one wardian case - I prefer to smell the orchids, not the Neem oil. I haven't noticed any harm to the orchids or Nepenthes I have sprayed with Neem oil solution or BioNeem (which seems to work as well on mealybugs and doesn't smell quite as bad). I haven't tried it on Drosera or Pinguicula; they may be more sensitive. In contrast, disulfoton, the insecticide usually found those systemic granules, is in Toxicity Class 1 - Highly Toxic. It is highly toxic to mammals, as well as to insects. It has a very low LD-50, the lethal dose in 50% of cases, of 2mg to 12mg per kilogram of body weight. This is measured in rats, which may be more resistant than humans. The label has a Danger or Danger-Poison warning in the higher concentrations. In lower concentrations it squeaks by as Level II, moderately toxic, with a Warning label. I agree with David Gray's warnings and cautions about the stuff. It may be the only thing that will stop a particular infestation of scale or whatever, but one should be highly prudent in using it. -- Chuck Bigelow ################### From: "Hermann Wistuba" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:33:01 +0100 Subject: AW: mealybug control Hi Chuck, In Germany there is a Insecticide from BAYER ( CONFIDOR ) with the same active ingredient as Marathon ( Imadacloprid ). After some years of frustrating trials with some other insecticides and only the loss of all leaves of my Adeniums full of scales I tried some months ago Confidor with a fantastic success. All scales are away with only one spraying, no loss of leaves and the Adeniums are healthy. I heard from this insecticide from cactus-friends. They know it fore years against mealy-bugs. I know that mealy-bugs are related to scales and decided to try it and I am happy. Perhaps you could get in US CONFIDOR perhaps under another name it is worth a trial. Greetings Hermann from Germany Dr. Hermann Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227 68259 Mannheim GERMANY hermann@wistuba.com -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com]Im Auftrag von Charles Bigelow Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Januar 2001 17:05 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: mealybug control Hi all, I find infestations of mealybugs on orchids and CPs that I grow indoors, especially in enclosed terraria or wardian cases. The mealybugs are much less prevalent on orchids and CPs (mostly Nepenthes) that I grow outside. ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:52:13 EST Subject: Re: mealybug control Charles and all, I have seen evidence to sustain what Charles said, because of something I mentioned before about Nepenthes and Sarracenia from Florida greenhouses. The mealy bugs are not thriving down there, but when I put the plants in my indoor tanks, BOOM, they appear in about a month or so. So it's seems to me, that they thrive in softer, constant conditions. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Duggins, Stephen R" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:19:56 -0800 Subject: Cephalotus resurrection? I recently bought some bare root Cephalotus. I read on one website to keep it at 80-90 degrees F. So I promptly put most of it into my lowland greenhouse after potting in 1:1 peat/sand soil mix in 6" pots with a shallow saucer to hold water. After developing white fuzzy stuff, (botrytis?), on the leaves of a couple plants I moved them closer to the heating fan, (for better air circulation) and treated them with sulfur. My plants rewarded this torture by losing all their leaves, (even the untreated ones that weren't close to the fan). Fortunately, I chose to put one plant outside, (in southern California), with my Sarracenia and ignore it. That one is looking great! After seeing my mistake, I finally decided to read my copy of Savage Garden and found that I shouldn't keep the plants at a constant high temperature. I have since moved one pot inside my house, (60 - 75 degrees F), one to my office, (constant 70 degrees F), and left one outside in the shade, (40 - 75 degrees F). Will the plants come back if treated properly? Is there any special R&R I can do to help? Should the rhizome be planted parallel or perpendicular to the soil surface? Please don't report me to the SPCP, (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Plants). I promise to treat my plants better as soon as I find out how. Steve Duggins 714 - 762 - 0562 ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:34:26 -0800 Subject: Carnivorous flower stalks? (P. Lusitanica) I am growing some P. Lusitanica in my terrarium. Today, I accidentally brushed by finger against one of the flower stalks, and noticed that it was sticky. Are the flower stalks indeed carnivorous and able to trap and digest insects? ( I don't see any insects stuck on the flower stalks, just the leaves). Is this normal for all butterworts, or is it specific to P. Lusitanica? Thanks, Joe ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:11:33 EST Subject: Re: Carnivorous flower stalks? (P. Lusitanica) Joe, I have some P. "Titan" that are large hybrid butterworts. They flower quite often, while in growth, and have sticky flower stalks that do mire insects on them. I can't say 100 percent certain that they don't digest insects this way, but I think they just use the glandular make-up they possess as a defense mechanism when it comes to flowers. Paul Temple, take it away...... Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Brewer Charles E PHDN Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:41:13 -0500 Subject: RE: Tips on growing Cephalotus Steve, I have been growing and the Cephalotus for some time now. Actually, more years then I care to say. Anyway, here is some helpful hints that may help you with your problems: Avoid purchasing bare rooted Cephs in the future. If they do come bare rooted, soak them in a fungicide solution for approx. 10 minutes before planting them up. A good fungicide to use is Ortho 3336. I use a soil mix consisting of 40% dried chopped sphagnum, 40% perlite, 10% sand/peat moss mix with agriculture charcoal mixed in. Add water, mix the soil and water together and let stand for approx. 1 day before using. Fill pot 60% full with mix, top dress soil with live sphagnum, plant your Ceph, water your plant and allow excess water to drain. Place potted plant in a cool humid environment, out of direct sunlight, until the plant shows signs of new growth. Forty to 75 degree F condition is excellent. Actually, cool nights, warm days are ideal for these plants. All my plants do their best growing during winter months. Their growing chambers reaches 70 degrees F during the day and drops to as low as 35 degree F during the evening hours. I also grow Cephs in my greenhouse where the temps can drop as low as 28 degrees during the evening hour. Air movement and well drained soil seems to be essential for healthy growth. > Will the plants come back if treated properly? If the rhizome is healthy enough and you don't keep the plant to wet, it should. > Is there any special R&R I can do to help? Once planted, leave it alone. > Should the rhizome be planted > parallel or perpendicular to the soil surface? Vertical seems to work for me. Things to avoid: Keeping them to wet, high temperatures, over feeding with insects especially when growing them in an environment like an aquarium. Constantly moving them around or repotting them, soil mix to compact, sour soil, using strong fertilizers, full sun. Hope this helps, Charles Brewer ---------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: NAVSEA CDSA Dam Neck email addresses have changed to 'user@navseadn.navy.mil'. Please update your address books accordingly. ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:31:30 EST Subject: Re: Cephalotus resurrection? >>I recently bought some bare root Cephalotus. I read on one website to keep it at 80-90 degrees F. So I promptly put most of it into my lowland greenhouse after potting in 1:1 peat/sand soil mix in 6" pots with a shallow saucer to hold water. After developing white fuzzy stuff, (botrytis?), on the leaves of a couple plants I moved them closer to the heating fan, (for better air circulation) and treated them with sulfur. My plants rewarded this torture by losing all their leaves, (even the untreated ones that weren't close to the fan). Fortunately, I chose to put one plant outside, (in southern California), with my Sarracenia and ignore it. That one is looking great! After seeing my mistake, I finally decided to read my copy of Savage Garden and found that I shouldn't keep the plants at a constant high temperature. I have since moved one pot inside my house, (60 - 75 degrees F), one to my office, (constant 70 degrees F), and left one outside in the shade, (40 - 75 degrees F). Will the plants come back if treated properly? Is there any special R&R I can do to help? Should the rhizome be planted parallel or perpendicular to the soil surface? Please don't report me to the SPCP, (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Plants). I promise to treat my plants better as soon as I find out how.>> The web site you may be referring to is my old web site catalani.com. I grow quite a few cephalotus, and over the past few years have experimented with growing them at different temperatures. My largest cephalotus's still grow year round at 80 degrees. However, I have found that transplanting plants, especially bare root, is best done by keeping the humidity extremely high, and keeping the plants out of any form of direct sunlight until they are well established. This usually allows them to keep their pitchers. Immediately exposing them to high light aftre transplanting can cause the pitchers to wilt in a few days, although the plant itself is ok. A lowland Nepenthes house may not provide enough light for the plants, and with ample humidity, bortrytis could become a problem, especially at 85 degrees. Mine grow at that temperature under lights, and I havent had a problem with fungus attacks. Placing the plant next to a heater or heater fan could reduce the humidty and dry the plant out (the leaves, ont the soil), which ceph's defintely do not like. They are quite durable from the roots, and can easily come back from the "dead". I'm not sure what effects sulfur may have on the plants. Be careful about leaving the plants outside as well. I can grow cephs outside here in Memphis during the early spring, but other times of the year it is either too hot or too cold. My large plants grow in a chamber inside my house. This keeps the temperature stable at about 75 degrees. With the lights on, the temperatures rise to about 85 with some flux up and down. My point about this is that the chamber isnt heated on the inside, which keeps the humidity from dropping. Michael Catalani ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:00:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade Hey Folks, I have just finished helping a plant quarantine officer for the US Department of Agriculture. The officer had questions about the identification of some plants being sent through his office. We were able to establish that the plants were most probably Sarracenia rubra subsp. rubra---I was particularly concerned they may have been Sarracenia jonesii. Since the plants were apparently Sarracenia rubra, the papers were in order so the plants passed through the USDA station without incident. However, I have grave misgivings about the entire episode. As I understand the particulars of the shipment, approximately 500 plants were being shipped to Canada, in dead and dried form. (Presumably for some pharmaceutical purpose.) Were the plants field collected or propagated, you may ask... It is impossible to tell. But there is a clue... The plants were mature, and at least some had mature fruiting capsules. Since the seed capsules were not harvested, this suggests the plants were field collected---an operation involved in large scale propagation using seed would probably collect seed capsules. If the plants were being grown out from tissue culture, I would expect that the flowering stalks would be removed in early development for maximum growth of the rhizomes. So....my guess is the plants were collected from the field. Perhaps the plants were field collected legally. In any event, it was an interesting incident. Sigh. Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:09:56 -0600 Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade Barry Meyers-Rice wrote: > > So....my guess is the plants were collected from the field. So, we dress up in green hoods with white stripes, red tubes, whatever, and go visit these guys at night. Where do I sign up? ################### From: "Chris Hind" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:14:45 -0800 Subject: RE: Ants on Nepenthes thanks, will give it a try. ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 01:00:59 -0200 Subject: Re: Aldrovanda and Dionaea Filippo and Ivan, So the question is, did the snap traps of VFTs and Aldrovanda have a common or separate origin? Well, phylogenetics usually goes by the assumption that evolutionary changes are more likely to have accurred once, rather than twice independently. So simplyfying the question, we assume that snap traps arose only once. BUT -- and there always are one or more buts -- there are several characteristics which put Aldrovanda closer to Drosera than to Dionaea, such as style number and pollen morphology. This suggests that maybe the snap traps of Aldrovanda and VFTs evolved from a sticky predecessor (common to Drosophyllum and Triphyophyllum as well -- and maybe even Nepenthes, as indicated by DNA sequencing) AND...... that Drosera evolved through a reversal of the snap trap back to the sticky (although active)trap type. As you see, this reversal seems as unlikely as the possibility that two different snap traps evolved independently in the same family. If there were more snap traps in the CP world, maybe this wouldn't sound so improbable. Both are POSSIBLE, but UNLIKELY. Agree? So what does DNA show us that morphology hasn't so far? Well, the phylogenetic trees I obtained with after sequencing two genes have so far not been 100% conclusive. In fact it would be best to sequence one or two more genes to be sure, to add more data. It's pointing to either of two possibilities (hopefully this very crude tree will come out well...): Tree #1: Neps VFT Ald. /_______/_____/____ Dros. \ / \_Tryphyoph. / Drosoph. OR Tree #2: VFT Ald. \ / Neps \/ /_______/____ Dros. \ / \_Tryphyoph. / Drosoph. Tree #1 shows VFT and Ald. inserted as 2 separate branches onto the main stem. This could mean that snap traps had a separate and independent origin from sticky traps OR that there was a single snap trap origin from sticky traps and that the sticky traps of Drosera evolved from some sort of snap trap. A step back, some might say, but I guess the fact that we only have two snap traps alive today suggests that maybe the energy spent is not as evolutionarily efficient as active sticky traps. Anyways, in this case (tree #1) it is more likely (in terms of evolutionary steps necessary) that the second possibility is true, since a snap trap would require numerous adaptive mutations to evolve. The chances that this happened twice in parallel are scarce. Regression on the other hand is far more likely since at least some of the mutations necessary for regression may already be present, retained somewhere in the genome, maybe inactivated. Anyways, tree #2 shows Ald. and VFT arising from a common branch, which is in turn inserted in the main stem which leads to Drosera. The big difference here is that this tree increases the likelyhood that snap traps had a common origin (since they're on a same branch) and decreases the likelihood that Drosera evolved from a snap trap (but from a passive sticky trap instead). Again the possibilities are there, so we can only bet on the probabilities. On or two genes might not be conclusive. But add a few more genes and if they keep pointing in the same direction, I guess it may not be necessary to sequence their whole genomes... :):):) Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil P.S. Still owing a mail about the Chilean CPs, I know ... ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:38:07 +0000 Subject: A & D Dear Fernando, > Tree #1: > > Neps VFT Ald. > /_______/_____/____ Dros. > \ > / \_Tryphyoph. > / > Drosoph. > > > OR > > > Tree #2: > > VFT Ald. > \ / > Neps \/ > /_______/____ Dros. > \ > / \_Tryphyoph. > / > Drosoph. Interesting, but you should include _Ancistrocladus_ in your analysis. It is the closest relative of Dioncophyllaceae, and this further proves that _Drosophyllum_ (which is the sister to the Dioncophyllaceae/Ancistrocladaceae branch) is not part of Droseraceae (i.e. the family did probably *not* evolve from a _Drosophyllum_-like precursor). More importantly, you should include a non-nepenthalean outgroup in your considerations. Otherwise, the tree is unrooted, and the evolutionary course could equally well have been in the opposite direction, e.g. Meimberg & al. (Plant Biology 2:218-228, 2000) came to this conclusion: /Nepenthaceae | | /Ancistrocladaceae |/+ /+|\Dioncophyllaceae |\+ | \-Drosophyllaceae /+ |\Droseraceae | | /Plumbaginaceae |/+ ||\Polygonaceae /+| |\+/Tamaricaceae | \+ | \Frankeniaceae /+ |\Simmondsiaceae | | /Chenopodiaceae | /+ | |\Amaranthaceae |/+ ||\Nyctaginaceae \+ \Portulacaceae i.e. Droseraceae are at the base and not at the top of the carnivorous clade in the caryophyllids. Is _Drosera_ monophyletic (incl. _D. regia_) in your trees? Kind regards Jan ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:08:56 +0100 Subject: Re: Aldrovanda and Dionaea Dear Fernando, Jan and Ivan, thank you for the interesting replies. > So the question is, did the snap traps of VFTs and Aldrovanda >have a common or separate origin? Well, phylogenetics usually goes by the >assumption that evolutionary changes are more likely to have accurred once, >rather than twice independently. So simplyfying the question, we assume that >snap traps arose only once. Also separate origin of pitchers is unlikely, but there is the case of Sarraceniaceae, Cephalotus and Nepenthes which almost surely developed their traps indipendently. Why the same thing couldn't have happened to snap traps? Drosera traps seem quite suitable for such evolution: consider for example D. kenneallyi: its traps have a shape very similar to the one of Dionaea's; and when they catch prey they close in the same way. If you add to it the rapidity of D. burmannii and if you increase it, you'll maybe obtain one day another snap trap evolved indipendently. About Aldrovanda, it is clearly related to Drosera, but it is completely different morphologically; and this is obvious if you admit the very ancient origin of this genus. Dionaea, on the other hand, is still very similar to some species of the genus Drosera, which should be very strange if the two genera separated more than 65 millions years ago. Just some ideas, without scientific bases. Regards Filippo Tassara ################### From: Terre Golembiewski Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:12:06 -0500 Subject: Number of CP in the USA I am trying to arrive at the number of species of carnivorous plants in the United States. So far I have: 1 Darlingtonia 10 Sarracenia 1 Dionaea 1 Catopsis 6? Pinguicula ??? Drosera ??? Utricularia Can anyone help? Terre Golembiewski ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:28:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Close-up Photos >Hello Barry, >I'm very impressed with your Photo's! Do you ever share your >techniques? I have found aquatic specimens challenging, and have not ever >accomplished the clarity you have. It looks like N. aristolochioides is >growing in Sphagnum, and doing well! >Take care, >Steven Stewart Hey Steven, Thanks for the compliments. As anyone who knows me, knows---I'm happy to talk at length on any topic. :) Anyway, the photos I took were taken using a 50 mm lens, reversed, stacked on a 135 mm lens. I mounted this combination onto my camera with about 50 mm of extension tubes. For lighting, I used two TTL flash units about 3 cm from the plants. As for the setting, I have a little aquarium I bought for this kind of use---I've even lugged it into the field. I keep one surface EXTREMELY clean, and fill it with purified water and my subject. Use a razor blade to clean bubbles off the viewing side of the aquarium. I'm going to try to make a specialized aquarium at some point with an optical quality side. I see a good deal of degradation from this source. Later! Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Barbro =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bergg=E5rd?= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:23:06 +0100 Subject: Corcovado, Costa Rica Hi everyone! I a going to visit Costa Rica and the national park Corcovado in April.It must be possible to find carnivoruos plants there, but I do not know where and what kind of them. Please, give me information! Regards Barbro Barbro.Berggard@carnivo.se Carnivo E-mail: Barbro.Berggard@carnivo.se ################### From: Sylvia De Rooy Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:24:17 -0800 Subject: mealybugs/cephs If I spray alcohol over a plant a few times over a couple of weeks that seems to be all I need to do to control mealybugs. Sometimes I need to do one more spray after another week or so. I have 2 cephs in my outdoor bog that are fat and happy here in far northern CA. Temps are never very high here, mid 70's being considered VERY hot here. These last few weeks water in the yard has had an ice coating and everything has a light coat of frost. ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:42:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Number of CP in the USA > 1 Catopsis What is Catopsis? -Joe ################### From: "Wubs" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:39:11 -0500 Subject: D Adelae Is it just me, or is D. adelae a weed? Since I purchased mine in August of 2000, it's done nothing but send out long roots that sprout plantlets (OK, actually on 6 plantlets, but that's not bad for a plant that was sitting in dried sphagnum at the local Home Depot store!). Is this common for this plant? I mean, I'm not complaining, but space is a factor and I hate the thought of having to "dispose" of the excess. -jk [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:43:52 EST Subject: Re: D Adelae Jk, No, it is definitely not just you. D. adelae produces gazillions of plantlets that will fill the pot up and shoot out the pots drainage holes and start growing across the bare glass of my tanks. I should put a layer of LF sphagnum on the bottom of the tank so they plantlets could get huge. It is one of the most prolific CP, in that to propagate it, you don't have to do anything. It does all the work. I would not dump the excess. Maybe you could trade them on the trading post or at least give them to new people interested in CP(or charge a buck a potful). I had a similar episode with U. longifolia, and I got rid of it in a quick manner, only to find out a few weeks ago that mine flowered much more than others were known to(thanks to Barry's wisdom, even though he called me a "Infidel" :( ) Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Adao Pereira" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:45:47 -0000 Subject: More on cool photos Hello to all!! Looking at Barry's photos, I recalled that I have here some very cool photos I took also of Utric. inflata and Byblis. They are extreme close-ups of the traps, and believe me they are very nice. I invite you all to take a look: http://planeta.clix.pt/welwitschia/Utric_close.jpg http://planeta.clix.pt/welwitschia/Byblis_gland.jpg At the moment I have only these really good ones, but I will take some more one day. It's not easy. Best regards, Miguel ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:25:24 -0600 Subject: Refridgerated Seeds and Fungus I bought a whole mess of VF seeds (20,000 from one of the list members), put them in Perlite, dampened the whole mess with water and fungicide, drained any free water and put the sealed mass in the refrigerator for a few months until I could find 20,000 pots to put them in. I brought them out yesterday to inspect them and noticed a thinish layer of fungus on the top of the seed/perlite mass. All the seeds still look shiny and plump, and the fungus doesn't appear to have reached too far below the surface - kinda like turf - could the perlite itself have nutrients that the fungus can grow on, and why, if I bathed the whole thing in bonomyl fungicide, did the fungus start growing? Does the fungicide wear off after a while? I plan on test planting selected seeds to see if they've been damaged. I hope not... Thanks, Mike ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:00:47 EST Subject: Re: Insect origins Steven--and List, -- -- Sorry about that. I did not mean to attack all Florida growers. I thought I was pointing out a possible connection to softer conditions and a pest taking advantage of it. I have never received plants from--Steven and I have heard great things about bicals that came from him, and certainly would not pass up a chance to get some of his fantastic stuff. -- I did tell the people I got the plants from and have no reason to believe they would lie about nothing going on in their greenhouses. I find it strange that from all four of the people I had bought plants from in Florida(greenhouse grown) in the last three years, this has occured, and when the other person made a comment, I was trying to postulate a link betwen my soft conditions(ie under--lights indoors in tanks) and being grown in Florida--greenhouses. What I was trying to get at was my conditions seem more favorable for these pests(I have had those and scale at the same time-not good) and they don't thrive under the conditions from whence they came, since the plants arrive in perfect health. These are the only plants that get attacked like this, and I suppose another angle could be that the pests are already on my other plants, and the hardgrown Florida plants in the softer conditions lose a little stamina and are vulnerable. -- Anyway, I sincerely apologize to Steven and any other Florida CP growers(I would love to be one of them right now. It's cold here) I may have offended, and I will try not to make such bold generalizations in the future. -- -- Regards, -- -- Joe -- In a message dated 2/1/2001 3:01:21 PM Central Standard Time, steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net writes: > Hello Joe, > I just thought I would drop you a note about where some of your problem > insects _really_ came from. One of the first commercial pest > "Mealybugs",_Pseudococcus citri_ were first found in the US on Oranges > trees imported from Italy in the late 1800's and very early 1900's and > named "Citrus Mealybugs". When Entomologists tried to find the same pests, > causing problems in Italy they were unsuccessful. It turns out they had a > beneficial insect _Leptomastidea abnormis_ , and both this insect and the > "mealybugs" had been imported from China. It took many years of effort to > capture and import these insects to the US, mainly because there were no > airplanes yet, and entire Citrus trees infected with both insects had to be > sent by boat, to _California_. Another "mealybug" was discovered several > years later and the Asian beneficial had no effect on it. A beetle from the > original country of this new "mealybug" was found, in _Australia_. > _Cryptolaemus montrouzieri_, the "mealybug destroyer" was then released in > California and was very successful in helping eradicate this type of > "Longtail mealybug" _Pseudococcus longisipes_ from Citrus crops. DDT was > used from the 1940's - 1960's and wiped out most of the beneficials, along > with most everthing else.There are more than 300 species in this family, > most are tropical, and thrive best when in controlled environments, being > able to lie dormant, as eggs, for very long periods until the right > conditions are present. They could be from many plant or soil, or sources, > when dealing with material from around the world. > While it is true Florida does have a large number of insects, a large > number of these are beneficial, many not found elsewhere in the world. > I think it might be most constructive for you to contact individuals who > _you think_ may have sent you infected plants to inform them personally > rather than to over generalize your personal, limited, recent experiences, > and apply them to _all_ plants and greenhouse plant businesses from > Florida. I would hope for a personal note if it were my plant material you > are having problems with, and am sure you would want to be told, if > someone had problems with material you provided. > There are many very good books on Horticulture, IPM and other types of past > and present insect control methods you need to read, to help you become > informed and experienced, before you come to conclusions which may be > harmful to people not intended. > I hope the Nepenthes bicalcarata seed you received from me is germinating > as well as mine are. In the proper growing environment they will germinate > and grow rapidly. I have never seen any species of "mealybug" on this > species of Nepenthes, "scale" is another story.;-) > Take care, > Steven Stewart > Sanford, Florida > > > > [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:02:14 +0930 Subject: Sphagnum Palms? A little while ago, I reported that I had been using "peat" bricks which contained coconut fibre (coir). A more careful look at the label (Tropigro "Fast Peat" bricks) shows that these bricks are made entirely from coconut fibre. I was under the impression the term "peat" applied exclusively to sphagnum moss peat. If these bricks are "peat", then I have a 50 foot sphagnum moss palm growing in my back yard and, I tell you what, you don't want to be standing under it when it's dropping its spores. Apart from the (mis)use of terminology, I don't have any complaints about the bricks. I suspect the coconut peat lasts longer in the tropics. And if you're into using coconut, it's much easier than trying to snip up coconut fibre with scissors. BTW, a way of controlling ants on Nepenthes (or any other plant for that matter) is to place the plant in the centre of a moat. Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:56:09 -0600 Subject: Re: Sphagnum Palms? Kevin Cook wrote: > A little while ago, I reported that I had been using "peat" bricks which > contained coconut fibre (coir). > Mr. Webster says that peat is "Turf or partially carbonized vegetable tissue formed by partial decomposition of various plants (as mosses of the genus Sphagnum)." Yet another definition: "A bold, gay woman." :) So, I guess partially decomposed coconut fiber is 'legal' to sell as peat. Wayne Morrow ################### From: Robin Dauber Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:12:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: BUGS! II Boy howdy, Thanks for the overwhelming response to my mealy bug questions. I am glad to hear so many others also rely on the tried and true firehose technique of crowd control. I may also try spraying alcohol, instead of just dabbing it on. A couple of days ago, I also found a bottle of concentrated liquid garlic juice. I am guessing this would work more as a deterrent than a cure. I am still curious where they come from...or are they just native to everywhere by now? I have seen articles that Hibiscus mealy are a problem in the Caribbean, but also that mealies attack fruit crops in the Pacific Northwest. Can they survive outdoors in Chicago over winter (long stretches of 10-15F)? Also, I see Australian Mealy Bug Destroyers (aka Ladybugs) are available but expensive. Do other kinds of Ladybug eat mealies if available? Lots of Ladybugs huddle together and overwinter in my Sarracenia pitchers...I have caught and released these in my plant room before, but have never seen one eating anything, let alone a mealy. Once again, any information is appreciated, John in Chicago ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Number of CP in the USA Dear Terre and Joe, > I am trying to arrive at the number of species of carnivorous plants in the > United States. So far I have: > > 1 Darlingtonia > 10 Sarracenia > 1 Dionaea > 1 Catopsis > 6? Pinguicula > ??? Drosera > ??? Utricularia --snip-- > 1 Catopsis > > What is Catopsis? > > -Joe Catopsis is an air plant that catches lots of debris and bugs get caught in surprising numbers. I believe there are seven species of Drosera in the USA, but perhaps this is the count for North America: D. anglica, D. brevifolia, D. capillaris, D. intermedia, D. filiformis, D. linearis and D.rotundifolia. I tried to use the Data base at http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home to find by the name and location, but could not seem to get it to work. Is there a way to search for both Name and Location at the same time? Dave Evans ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:54:56 EST Subject: U. longifolia Hi All, Does anyone have any U. longifolia that they would like to sell/trade? I am curious if the stuff I had that flowered a ton was really that species or mislabled seed, or maybe I was lucky. If I can get it to flower, maybe I can write an article on it(I watered it, put it under light, and it flowered and that's all you do..) Seriously, I am curious and would like to experiment with it. If I have any luck, I'll gladly report it. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:37:47 -0500 Subject: Re: U. longifolia Dear Joe, I have some U. longifolia. I have not ID'ed it yet. I still stuck on my U. subulata (for ID), but there is hope. Perhaps if you can flower the plant I have, it can then be ID'ed. :) I have mine growing on peatmoss that is laying on top of a thick layer of perlite in a twenty gallon tank. It doesn't look that happy though. Oddly, it appears to be crawling along the surface of the peatmoss, only a few stolons seem to penetrate into the peat. the rest reach upward. What type of soil did you use? I can send you some pieces once the weather warms. Check this URL: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/gallery/3_2000/EricSchlosser_ESulongifolia_ jpg.htm If you recall the flowers, perhaps this is your species? Dave Evans ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:56:51 -0600 Subject: Re: U. longifolia I am growing it in live sphagnum in flooded pots with out drainage. Foliage thrives. I disturbed it a month ago to repot all the babies and growth has slowed. Do you have U. subulata for trade? Wayne Dave Evans wrote: > Dear Joe, > > I have some U. longifolia. I have not ID'ed it yet. I still stuck on > my U. subulata (for ID), but there is hope. Perhaps if you can flower the > plant I have, it can then be ID'ed. :) I have mine growing on peatmoss > that is laying on top of a thick layer of perlite in a twenty gallon tank. > It doesn't look that happy though. Oddly, it appears to be crawling along > the surface of the peatmoss, only a few stolons seem to penetrate into the > peat. the rest reach upward. What type of soil did you use? > I can send you some pieces once the weather warms. > > Check this URL: > http://www.carnivorousplants.org/gallery/3_2000/EricSchlosser_ESulongifolia_ > jpg.htm If you recall the flowers, perhaps this is your species? > > Dave Evans ################### From: "J. Chris Coppick " Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:33:18 -0800 Subject: Re: U. longifolia On Feb 1, at 21:00, Wayne Morrow mused about the following: > > > I am growing it in live sphagnum in flooded pots with out drainage. Foliage > thrives. I disturbed it a month ago to repot all the babies and growth has > slowed. > > -- End of excerpt from Wayne Morrow Mine started out in a sphagnum/peat mix, but now I think my U. Longifolia is mostly growing in U. Longifolia. Actually, I take that back. It's mostly growing in the water tray. I got mine originally from a pot of D. Prolifera. I wish the Prolifera had done so well. Mr. D'Amato ID'ed it for me, so I'm pretty confident it's U. Longifolia. Neat stuff. Huge traps. No flowers, though. Chris ################### From: "philmann" Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 08:48:19 +0800 Subject: Cephalotus saucer to hold water. After developing white fuzzy stuff, (botrytis?), on Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:54:56 -0000 Subject: Drosophyllum I hesitate to ask this question after all the high brow stuff of recent days but as a fairly new CP fan I need the help. I have a nine month old drosophyllum that is producing flower buds. I wasn't expecting it to do this for some months here in southern England. Should I let it flower or remove the buds? Dennis > ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:49:24 EST Subject: Re: U. longifolia Whoops. Sorry about the post to the group that was supposed to be private I knew I would do that sometime. Anyway, a couple of people have inquired to what I did with U. longifolia. Honestly, I basicaly neglected it. I started ICPS seed in a pot of milled sphagnum, and it germinated and grew and then invaded nearby pots of D. prolifera(I guess they love prolifera, huh?) and D. villosa and stangled them put of existance, and then shot out the bottom of the pots and covered the entire bottom of a 10 gallon tank(bare, except for the pots). I would dump water in occasionally, when it was dry(sometimes the leaves were brown a little). The bottom of the tank was a inch-thick mass of whiteness. The photoperiod was a straight 16 hours with no fiddling with it for seasonal purposes. Deduce what you can from that. he other pots had a variety of mediums from LF sphagnum to peat/sand, but it did not matter. Maybe the exposure to so much oxygen had something to do with it, or because there was nowhere else for the plant to go, they had to flower because they were bored :) Maybe periods of d! ! ! ryness triggered flowering after water was dumped in the tank(filling the bottom for a half-inch or so). Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Sylvia De Rooy Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:53:05 -0800 Subject: re:BUGS! II John in Chicago, Ladybugs (not just the so-called Australian Mealybug Destroyers) love mealybugs and aphids. They can be bought in packs of 500 at most plant nurseries. They should be released at night. They will be hungry in the morning and will start chomping at first light. It's best to release 100 or so at a time, keeping the rest in your fridge. They tend to migrate rather than stay put in your plant area, that's why it's best to release them in bunches over time. Alcohol spraying is cheaper and, I think, easier. ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:53:42 -0500 Subject: New to List Hey There, My name is Steve LaWarre, I am the Head Grower at Frederik Meijer Gardens in Grand Rapids MI. We have been building our CP collection here for about 3 years. I am looking forward to opening a 20' x 20' public CP display greenhouse this fall, and am currently designing/ planning this greenhouse. I think every Botanist has his/her favorite plants, and mine are defiantly CP's, followed closely by Aroids. I look forward to participating in this listserv. I am sure I will learn allot. I have two questions: 1) What is the best protocol for germinating Heliamphora seed? 2) Does any one have a good source for mature Heliamphora plants? Thanks! Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org www.meijergardens.org ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:02:30 -0600 Subject: Re: N. ventricosa seed for sale Do you still have any of that seed left for sale? If so, is it still good? Thanks, Mike Dave Evans wrote: > > Dear List, > > I have been successful in creating two sets seed of the species > N. ventricosa. I want to make the seed available to growers on > the list while it is still very fresh. I have seed of: > > (A) N. ventricosa (Normal yellow pitchers with red speckles and > highlights) * N. ventricosa (deep red peristome, #125) and (B) N. > ventricosa (Normal yellow pitchers with red speckles and highlights) > * N. ventricosa (entire pitcher solid pink) > > N. ventricosa is an interesting, easily grown highland Nepenthes. > Both the upper and lower pitchers have nice hourglass shape with a > wide peristome. It make's for a very good beginner plant, > especially if you can provide it with cool nights. I suggest using > seedling orchid mix with some peatmoss/sand 50:50 added to "gel" the > orchid mix together. I also chop up living Sphagnum moss and and > use it as a top dressing for Nepenthes seedlings. Note: This may > not be the best way to germinate them, this is just what I do. > > Here's the deal: > > I will take orders for seed on a first come (in order of e-mails > received in my inbox) first serve basis. I will explain > everything now, but you have to email me and wait until I can > confirm that the seed you want is still available before you do > anything else. The seed will be $4.00 US (international orders > welcome for seed) per packet of more than sixty seed each. I > will need for you to supply a bubble wrap SASE (self addressed, > stamped envelope). I want to try and spread the seed to as many > people as possible, so I may limit the number of packets to one > of each (A and B) per order depending on the interest I see in > the next couple days. So put down for as many seed packets as > you do want, but I will try to satisfy as many orders as > possible. I would like to wait at least a couple days (until > after the weekend) before sending confirmations so all > interested people will have a chance to order before I send a > large number of seed to just a few people. The seed is not > guaranteed in anyway. I have produced this seed and harvested > it earlier in the week and now the seed heads have just dried to > the point where they are opening. I don't I think I could > provide fresher seed! It may take me a couple days after I > start sending confirmations to finish answering all inquires, > don't worry I will get back to you. Recap: The packets are > four dollars (USA). From within the USA the postage you need to > supply should (I checked at the post office) be $0.44, one stamp > on the envelope containing a bubble wrap envelope and another > stamp on the envelope I'm to mail your seed back to you in. If > you don't send bubble wrap, there is a very good chance the post > office will crush the seed! I will include a piece of cardboard > for support as well. I do not know what postage rates may be in > other countries (especially where SASE's are concerned), but if > you can work it out with your Postal system, I will be glad to > send you seed as well. > > BTW, I have pollen of the two male plants (and a small amount of > N.truncata pollen) available free of charge to interested > parties. I just need an SASE like for the seed. The pollen is > frozen, so if your females plants are not in flower, there isn't > much point in getting pollen from me at this time, just wait > until they are in flower. > > Dave Evans > > [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:29:25 -0800 Subject: Re: Aldrovanda & Dionaea Ivan began: >>So most probable is the line beginning with Drosera to >>Dionaea and then Aldrovanda. >The conclusion may in fact be correct (especially the assumption that _Drosera_ is the oldest genus). But I doubt the (oversimplified) premises, and would rather base this theory on the number of recent species, sections, and subgenera, and their global distribution. Kind regards Jan Hi all, Ivan again, I feel the most exciting findings are yet to come. Considering all that we know, and some experiments I have done, it seems most likely that Aldrovanda and Dionaea can be hybridized. The results of such an attempt would be telling in regard to their taxonomic relation and also might lead to some interesting plants for the cultivator. Can you imagine how such a hybrid would look? Since hybrids are intermediate in appearance, I like to think that a hybrid would also look like the evolutionary in-between. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:51:49 +0000 Subject: Re: Drosophyllum In message <001101c08d1f$b9c98bf0$bb67010a@sdevonhctr.swest.nhs.uk>, dennis,balsdon writes > >I hesitate to ask this question after all the high brow stuff of recent days >but as a fairly new CP fan I need the help. > >I have a nine month old drosophyllum that is producing flower buds. I >wasn't expecting it to do this for some months here in southern England. > >Should I let it flower or remove the buds? > This is not unusual in Drosophyllum though they are flowering a little earlier than usual for the south of England. Leave the flowers on. They will not weaken the plant. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:12:08 -0500 Subject: Re: D. linearis > Many thanks to everyone who replied to my D. linearis question. It seems > that the consensus of experience is that this species will grow okay on > a peat and sand mix. Having seen where they grow in habitat I find this > quite surprising, especially as there are plenty of acid peat bogs in > the area as well but not a single D. linearis grows there. Dear Phil, Perhaps, mixing a bit of fine grade marble into the soil will give this plant a boost... I have been trying this with hardy _Pinguicula_, and it's been promising. Dave Evans ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:31:18 +0000 Subject: Re: D. linearis Dave, > > Perhaps, mixing a bit of fine grade marble into the soil will give this >plant a boost... I have been trying this with hardy _Pinguicula_, and it's >been promising. > Certainly the addition of something alkaline is beneficial to most temperate Pinguicula. At the moment I am trial use of rockwool blocks for these plants. Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Connie Steiert" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:46:23 -0700 Subject: Re: Corcovado, Costa Rica I would also be interested in this. I might go to a language school in Costa Rica for a month. Plenty of time to find lots of CPs. What's the deal with collecting CPs in some place like that and bringing them back? Quarantine period? Even legal (US laws)? Dak ################### From: Daniel Murphy Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:50:28 +1100 Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade Dear Barry, >Were the plants field collected or propagated, you may ask... > >It is impossible to tell. But there is a clue... Do you think it could be possible to identify field collected Sarracenia, as opposed to greenhouse cultivated plants, by the insects that are caught in the pitchers? Perhaps the relative abundance of insects or the taxonomic groups would be useful. Dan Murphy ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:46:31 +1100 Subject: U. longifolia Hi Joe I'll be sending you some longifolia ssp forgetiana seed. I've got three forms but this one which grows in my Sarra bog has 40cm (16") flower spikes with up to 8 flowers on them. I'll also upload photos of it. I think this is a beautiful easy to grow easy to flower form. Sorry No other seed is available unless you're a member of the New South Wales CP Society. Greg Bourke EDITOR/SEED BANK MANAGER for the Carnivorous Plant Society of New South Wales Check out the web page @ www.carnivorousplants.asn.au email the society @ carnivorousplantsnsw@hotmail.com My Photos @ http://photos.yahoo.com/sydneycarnivorous ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:35:32 +0000 Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade In message , Daniel Murphy writes > >Dear Barry, > >>Were the plants field collected or propagated, you may ask... >> >>It is impossible to tell. But there is a clue... > >Do you think it could be possible to identify field collected Sarracenia, >as opposed to greenhouse cultivated plants, by the insects that are caught >in the pitchers? Perhaps the relative abundance of insects or the >taxonomic groups would be useful. > I think perhaps the onus should be on the exporter to prove they are from cultivated sources rather than the opposite. It should be fairly easy to provide evidence of growth in cultivation - a nursery premises for instance... Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 13:15:55 +0100 Subject: re: U. longifolia Hi, Sorry for dropping in, but I have a question that someone of you might answer. Can the leaf shape be variable on this species under it's development from a juvenile to a mature plant? The reason I'm asking is that I received a juvenile U. longifolia (White flower, Serra da Araponga) late last year. It has been doing great so far and the leaves has grown quite a bit. When I first got it, the small leaves were long and thin like I had expected, but the latest leaves are much stockier. I just wondered if this is normal or if it might be an invironmental thing. BTW, I have also got an U. alpina that have an almost round "leaf" as well as the normal elongated foliage. Since the "leaf" has traps it must be an utric, but there is always the possibility that another species has invaded the pot. Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 13:16:15 +0100 Subject: P. zecheri leaf cutting? Hi, I've read that one should use the succulent winter leaves on Mexican pinguicula for leaf cuttings, but is it possible to be successful with trapping leaves, since P. zecheri doesn't grow a winter rosette? My plant has grown a larger number of smaller leaves lately and I thought that it would be good time to propagate by leaf cuttings if it viable. Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:24:54 +0000 Subject: Re: U. longifolia Hi, > >Sorry for dropping in, but I have a question that someone of you might >answer. Can the leaf shape be variable on this species under it's >development from a juvenile to a mature plant? Yes, leaf shape can alter as the plant gets larger and older. Another thing that can affect leaf shape and size (and flower size as well) is relative humidity. Generally the more humid the conditions the larger the leaf. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:27:15 +0000 Subject: Re: P. zecheri leaf cutting? Hi, > >I've read that one should use the succulent winter leaves on Mexican >pinguicula for leaf cuttings, but is it possible to be successful with >trapping leaves, since P. zecheri doesn't grow a winter rosette? My >plant has grown a larger number of smaller leaves lately and I thought >that it would be good time to propagate by leaf cuttings if it viable. > Yes you can use the larger carnivorous leaves, though success is likely to be lower than with the succulent winter leaves. The main reason for using the winter leaves is that in the spring they will produce adventitious buds at their base, which is where the new plants grow from. Its really to do with timing rather than the actual leaf type. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:50:45 EST Subject: Re: U. longifolia Greg, U. longifolia subs forgetiana?? Sounds intersting? You want me to join an CP society in AU? Can I send US cash and if not, what kind of money order works? Joe [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "mike wilder" Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 17:40:08 -0000 Subject: ipsg newsletter hello, i am seeking someone who is willing to photocopy issues 1-5 of the ipsg newsletter for me. i can trade real issues of the cpn (almost all of them from 1994-1998), or i can photocopy any article or issue from the cpn since its inception as a color mag (ca. 1977). if anyone has extra issues of number 6 (of the ipsg newsletter), i will pay or trade for that as well. prefer usa person but would certainly appreciate offers from anyone anywhere. i hope no one out there will be upset about photocopying copyrighted stuff; but i'll accept the flames if necessary. thanks--mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 09:41:04 -0800 Subject: Re: Aldrovanda & Dionaea Trap >>Also separate origin of pitchers is unlikely, but there is the case of Sarraceniaceae, Cephalotus and Nepenthes which almost surely developed their traps indipendently. Why the same thing couldn't have happened to snap traps? Drosera traps seem quite suitable for such evolution: consider for example D. kenneallyi: its traps have a shape very similar to the one of Dionaea's; and when they catch prey they close in the same way. If you add to it the rapidity of D. burmannii and if you increase it, you'll maybe obtain one day another snap trap evolved indipendently. Filippo Tassara Hi Filippo and all, Your question is valid. The answer is a probability only. I grow Aldrovanda, Dionaea and sundews and have a particular interest in studying their relationship. I believe that the gin trap evolved only once. Here are the main reasons why. 1) Firstly, it is most reasonable that the aquatic Aldrovanda trap evolved from a trap more like Dionaea's out of water because the sundew trap does not function at all under water. There must have first been a trap more like Dionaea's to begin with which gave rise to Aldrovanda's. So the most logical order is Sundew-Dionaea-Aldrovanda. 2) Secondly, as I pointed out before, the chromosome counts of Aldrovanda 2n = 48 hexaploid [BTW Jan, triploids are sterile] and Dionaea 2n = 32 tetraploid enforce reason number one. 3)Third and last, Fernando's DNA sequencing shows that Dionaea and Aldrovanda are indeed very close. It is true that Aldrovanda's flower is more like a sundew's. This is the obstacle I think is troubling you. I reconcile this by what Jan says, "these evolved long ago"; so the split must have occurred before Dionaea was as it is presently. The proto-Dionaea surely had a flower much like Aldrovanda's. Hope this clears things up. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 21:16:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Nepenthes in Sphagnum Dear Steven, > FWIW I grow many species of Nepenthes in pure Long fiber Sphagnum. > --snip-- > I believe the "safest" mixes are the ones using more of an Orchid > type mix, but the plants will grow _much_ more slowly. If in doubt, I find > live Sphagnum does well as a top dressing, if the plant prefers one mix over > the other, it will simply root into the prefered mix. Well, no doubt small cuttings may due so... > I know "in the wild" > these plants do not grow in Sphagnum, but in horticulture, the conditions > are in no way similar to wild conditions. These plants do not grow in pots > "in the wild" no matter how many pots you tempt them with. Of course this is > in my _very_ limited experience, don't take me too seriously. Very true! I think your conditions are very good for cultivating Nepenthes in this manner. Especially your water and seasons... Greenhouses are much more trouble in the north (think heating over winter) and water is hard for the most part. _Sphagnum_ tends to rot over winter when brought inside and is difficult to keep "fresh". Instead of buying an R/O unit, I just use a peatmoss heavy soil for _Nepenthes_ as Sphagnum doesn't last over time without pure water. I'm glad my plants 'grow much more slowly' actually. They are all inside and if they were fast growing, they would have taken over by now! Dave Evans ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 01:51:07 -0800 Subject: What is Pinguicula oblongiloba? Could someone please give me some information about Pinguicula oblongiloba? I can't find a reference to it in The Savage Garden. Where is it from? What climate? Is it a synonym for another species name? Is there another plant that IS in The Savage Garden that has similar requirements? Thanks, Joe ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 13:03:57 -0000 Subject: Re: P. oblongiloba Hi Jo. The species Pinguicula oblongiloba is from Mexico, now there's a surprise! Like most of the mexican species, it grows high up so despite Mexico being thought of as very hot, the highland climate is somewhat cooler. In fact, days will be hot and nights relatively very cold, though there's no real risk of freezing. It's got a fairly typical Pinguicula-like rosette and a flower that is a very typical purple-violet, again like many Pinguicula. The flower is held erect but this species can have a very long flower stalk, though not every plant shows this. Rests in winter with the dormant non-trapping leaves usually just under the soil surface and visible from above (unlike some species which really do bury themselves where they can't be seen). In cultivation it will enjoy typical "mexican type" cultivation which will be: warm days (I doubt you could easily overheat it as all my tender Pinguicula species suffr temperatures as high as 120F in summer without loss), cooler nights - 5 degree C minimum at any time of year (41F for all decimally challenged brethrin!!!) but I always recommend slightly higher especially if there is any risk plant might be in wet soil in winter. Use a mix of Peat (20%), Sand(10%), Perlite (50%), Vermiculite (10%), Loam (10%) but treat the volumes as approximate - the idea is to have a soil that gets wet easily, stays damp for a good time but freely drains. (At an extreme, I would expect the plant to survive in 20%loam and 80% Perlite. It certainly won't have Vermiculite or Peat in it's wild habitat, nor much sand.) Water until soil is wet. Then allow soil to dry before watering again. In summer the plant will appreciate about 12-13 hours bright light. In winter, drop to about 7 hours and water less frequently allowing the soil to remain dry for days (I allow about a week for similar species) before rewetting. Regards Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 13:04:11 -0000 Subject: stalking prey > Paul Temple, take it away...... Damn! Oh well, yet another area of my ignorance exposed!!! I don't recall that any f my Pinguicula ever displayed bare flower stalks. From memory all have glands and insects are quite frequently trapped. It makes sense for such succulent (I mean this in the cullenary sense) plants to protect themselves from ravaging insects. As to wheher the glands can digest, on this I am no expert (though note that this does not iply I'm expert on anything else!!!), though I'll now read more on it and related topics. Two points. First, most of the books (I've not re-checked them all) completely avoid this subject. They simply refer to the leaves. This includes avoidance by some of the more scientific (rather than popular) titles written by full time botanists. However, the second point is that Pinguicula are rapid feeders. They very quickly digest and absorb their prey having first poured out a small pool of digestive enzymes to help things along. A pool of liquid enzyme would not be too stable if secreted onto a vertcal flower stalk. So it's unlikely that Pinguicula would have evolved to waste too much energy on using the flower stalk as a digestive area as much of the digestive pool of enzymes, and the resulting pool of digested prey, would run off. I'm sure one of our resident full time botanists must have read more on this? Regards Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: william.sherren@ukonline.co.uk Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 14:19:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Giant Cephalotus follicularis problem Hi With the recent postings on problems with Cephalotus follicularis, I was wondering if anyone could me any advice. I have been growing these plants for about 14 years now without problems. Last year I obtained a small bare- rooted tissue cultured specimen of the Giant form of this plant. It established itself nicely during the summer, but last week suddenly started to rot badly..I have sprayed it with a fungicide (although I always feel that wetting a plant thoroughly when its starting to rot is not a good idea!).. But the plant seems to be on the verge of collapse. I have kept it with my other normal Cephalotus follicularis in a well aired cool greenhouse. I keep them in water tray where during the winter I give them just enough water for them to take up..Keeping the compost moist not wet. They receive plenty of light. Any ideas or suggestions, so I do want to succeed with this species. thanks bill www.fly-catchers.co.uk This mail sent through UK Online webmail ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 09:32:26 -0500 Subject: Nepenthes in Sphagnum Hello Dave, and list, FWIW, I grew up and learned about horticulture in Boulder,Colorado. Cold winters are not something I am unfamiliar with. We were fortunate to have very soft mineral free water that came directly off glaciers to use as tap water, when I was young. This was before human population levels in this area made ground water sources a necessity. Before I left Colorado, the tap water was hard enough to make me purchase an RO unit, this was in 1978. The change in water quality was very evident in horticulture, and Sphagnum did break down, and become sour. I agree, fast growing Nepenthes are not always desireable, when faced with cramped conditions. This does not change the fact that many Nepenthes species and hybrids grow better in live Sphagnum, in horticuture, than in other mixes, when placed and grown in proper conditions. Sphagnum also grows and thrives when in proper conditions. I believe people should find whatever mix and method they have the best success with and utilize these with an observant eye and open mind. Take care, Steven Stewart > > FWIW I grow many species of Nepenthes in pure Long fiber Sphagnum. > > --snip-- > > I believe the "safest" mixes are the ones using more of an Orchid > > type mix, but the plants will grow _much_ more slowly. > Well, no doubt small cuttings may due so... > > Very true! I think your conditions are very good for cultivating > Nepenthes in this manner. Especially your water and seasons... > Greenhouses are much more trouble in the north (think heating over > winter) and water is hard for the most part. _Sphagnum_ tends to rot over > winter when brought inside and is difficult to keep "fresh". Instead of > buying an R/O unit, I just use a peatmoss heavy soil for _Nepenthes_ as > Sphagnum doesn't last over time without pure water. > I'm glad my plants 'grow much more slowly' actually. They are all > inside and if they were fast growing, they would have taken over by now! > > Dave Evans ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:52:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Giant Cephalotus follicularis problem Bill, >With the recent postings on problems with >Cephalotus follicularis, I was wondering if >anyone could me any advice. I have been growing >these plants for about 14 years now without >problems. Last year I obtained a small bare- >rooted tissue cultured specimen of the Giant form >of this plant. It established itself nicely >during the summer, but last week suddenly started >to rot badly..I have sprayed it with a fungicide Yes I agree with the point about wetting a plant with fungicide potentially adding to the problem. I use regular sulphur, sold in just about any garden centre, usually for dusting spring bulbs and other cold sensitive plants that are lifted and stored for the winter. The sulphur goes on dry and seems far more effective than any other fungicide that I have used. I think part of the effectiveness is because the sulphur will form a barrier to prevent re-infection. As to your plant I would take emergency action. Remove the plant from its pot and cut away all decaying growth until you are left with only healthy material. Plant up in fresh soil, treat the plant with the sulphur and hope! Even if you only have a small piece of rhizome left there is a good chance that the plant will recover. Its not long until spring now. As to reasons - Cephalotus does die back in this way for no apparent reason. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:13:11 +0100 Subject: Thanks (was: zecheri leaf cutt..and longifolia) Hi Phil, and thanks for anwering both my questions. > Yes, leaf shape can alter as the plant gets larger and older. Another > thing that can affect leaf shape and size (and flower size as well) is > relative humidity. Generally the more humid the conditions the larger > the leaf. > Funny that you should mention the humidity. My longifolia is being kept enclosed (high humidity), so this may explain the difference in leaf shape under my care. > Yes you can use the larger carnivorous leaves, though success is likely > to be lower than with the succulent winter leaves. The main reason for > using the winter leaves is that in the spring they will produce > adventitious buds at their base, which is where the new plants grow > from. Its really to do with timing rather than the actual leaf type. > I guess I'll have to try leaf cuttings then. My only worry is that I might damage the "mother plant", since it isn't very sturdy (shallow roots?). Thanks again, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:32:15 +0000 Subject: Re: Thanks (was: zecheri leaf cutt..and longifolia) Christer, > >> > >I guess I'll have to try leaf cuttings then. My only worry is that I >might damage the "mother plant", since it isn't very sturdy (shallow >roots?). > If you dig around the bases of the leaves you should be able to expose enough of the petiole for the leaf to break of easily. If you grow the plant in an alkaline substrate it will produce far better roots - you'll be able to pick the plant up by its leaves - pot and all! Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Juerg Steiger Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 22:30:24 +0200 Subject: Caspers' Pinguicula Monograph Dear CPers Some days ago the editor of the 200 pages Pinguicula Monograph by Jost Casper (1966, in German language) wrote that he still has some of the books. In case of interest contact Dr. E. Naegele . See also http://www.schweizerbart.de Kind regards Juerg Dr. Juerg F. Steiger University of Bern IAWF, Inselspital 37a CH-3010 Bern, Switzerland Tel +41 (0)31 632 9887 Fax +41 (0)31 632 9871 Private +41 (0)31 972 1979 ################### From: Laurent Legendre Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 10:47:48 +1100 Subject: Re: What is Pinguicula oblongiloba? Hi Joe, P. oblongiloba is actually known for more than a century with the type specimen described in 1874. It is present in several states in Mexico: Durango, Jalisco, Michoacan, Mexico, oaxaca and maybe more which I'm not aware of. P. oblongiloba was classified by Casper with P. macrophylla in a subsection called caudatopsis of section orcheosanthus (contains the very well known P. moranensis which you should find in the Salvage garden) of the subgenus Pinguicula of genus Pinguicula. P. stolonifera has later been added to this subsection. But this classification is based on morphological characters and not growing conditions. Still, P. oblongiloba is not a difficult species to grow. I used to cultivate it like P. gypsicola (also part of section orcheosanthus) or P. macrophylla. Make a more open mix and dry more in the winter than recommended for P. moranensis even though P. moranensis would prefer such conditions too. I hope this helps. It is a nice plant. Best regards, Laurent Legendre ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 23:16:14 -0500 Subject: N. maxima (highland Sulawesi) not pitchering Hi Everyone-- I have a N. maxima that hasn't produced a single new pitcher since its 1/2" stem started growing (currently 8" tall and 2 feet across). There remains a single fully developed pitcher about 6" from the ground rosette, and 8 upper leaves with stiff tendrils and no sign of enlarging pitchers. They haven't browned or dessicated in any way, and because the plant pitchered fine under the same growing conditions earlier, I'm assuming the humidity and temps are okay--although recently with the energy crisis, house temps have fallen into the 50 degree fahrenheit range, but the plant wasn't pitchering even before then. I have the plant in an orchid basket over my kitchen sink and it gets full morning sun for several hours. Other than the basket wires which the petioles have leaned themselves on, there is no support for the tough stem. Could this be my problem? Have any of you experienced a stubborn to pitcher maxima before? BTW, my plant originates from Malesiana Tropicals via a ! ! ! US source. Thanks, Gary Kong __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: "J. Chris Coppick " Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 23:57:26 -0800 Subject: lightweight pots Does anyone have any experience with those "thermal foam" lightweight pots? I have one I'm going to use for a mini-bog, and with water sitting in it constantly I'm naturally worried about toxins, seepage, etc. Thanks. Chris -- Cats don't hunt seals. They would if they knew what they were and where to find them. But they don't, so that's all right. -- (Terry Pratchett, The Unadulterated Cat) ################### From: "Bill Sherren" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:40:52 -0000 Subject: Giant Cephalotus follicularis problem Hi With the recent postings on problems with Cephalotus follicularis, I was wondering if anyone could me any advice. I have been growing these plants for about 14 years now without problems. Last year I obtained a small bare-rooted tissue cultured specimen of the Giant form of this plant. It established itself nicely during the summer, but last week suddenly started to rot badly..I have sprayed it with a fungicide (although I always feel that wetting a plant thoroughly when its starting to rot is not a good idea!).. But the plant seems to be on the verge of collapse. I have kept it with my other normal Cephalotus follicularis in a well aired cool greenhouse. I keep them in water tray where during the winter I give them just enough water for them to take up..Keeping the compost moist not wet. They receive plenty of light. Any ideas or suggestions, so I do want to succeed with this species. thanks bill www.fly-catchers.co.uk ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:42:07 -0500 Subject: D.schwackei, villosa, graomogolensis Though their growth is still slow, I wanted to point out that my montana schwackeis grew a lot better over the winter than they did over the summer. I think the secret to growing this plant might be providing it with VERY COOL temperatures all year long. (max of 70F). I have noticed Drosera villosa prefers very similar conditions. I have plants which just sat there and didn't grow for over a year after I exposed them to a month of hot temperatures! D.graomogolensis seems to tolerate higher temps than either of these with no problem. sundewmatt ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:45:47 -0500 Subject: Trade: D.sp.Emas seed for D.arenicola seed (or similar) Hey CPers... I've got a small quantity of fresh (viable) D.sp.emas seed for trade for TRUE D.arenicola seed or seed of other rare S.American or African Drosera. Please email me if you have anything tempting. Thanks! sundewmatt ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:52:04 -0500 Subject: RE: Refridgerated Seeds and Fungus > I brought them >out yesterday to inspect them and noticed a thinish layer of fungus on >the top of the seed/perlite mass. All the seeds still look shiny and Hi Mike, Your fungus is due to the 100% (or nearly 100%) humidity caused by sealing the plastic bags. The problem will probably go away when you plant out your seed in pots (as long as you don't put your pots in sealed plastic bags.) David Atlanta ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:08:37 -0500 Subject: RE: Drosophyllum >Should I let it flower or remove the buds? Hi Dennis, Let it flower. You may need the seed later David Atlanta ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:35:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Refridgerated Seeds and Fungus Thanks. I put the entire mass into a pitcher of water and bonomyl and stirred like crazy and let it soak for a little bit. Everything's dry now and all the seeds look fresh and shiny. There are a few clumps of dead fungus matter that's got seeds and perlite in it and even the seeds in that look fine for the most part. I'll plant them this week. How long should I expect them to take before germinating? Mike "Mellard, David" wrote: > > > I brought them > >out yesterday to inspect them and noticed a thinish layer of fungus on > >the top of the seed/perlite mass. All the seeds still look shiny and > > Hi Mike, > > Your fungus is due to the 100% (or nearly 100%) humidity caused by sealing > the plastic bags. The problem will probably go away when you plant out your > seed in pots (as long as you don't put your pots in sealed plastic bags.) > > David > Atlanta ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:39:06 EST Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade < Dear Barry, Were the plants field collected or propagated, you may ask... It is impossible to tell. But there is a clue... Do you think it could be possible to identify field collected Sarracenia, as opposed to greenhouse cultivated plants, by the insects that are caught in the pitchers? Perhaps the relative abundance of insects or the taxonomic groups would be useful. Dan Murphy> That is an interesting thought, and one I hadn't thought of. There is a way I can usually determine whether a Sarracenia plant was field collected or not. The soil in which they naturally grow (depending on species and location) can be a very thick "muck". It adheres to the root system and rhizome, and is very difficult to remove. The first time I encountered this was a decade ago, as I was transplanting wild flavas from a site being cleared to another active flava site about a mile downrange. In an old copy of ICPN (or in Schnells book, I cant remember off the top of my head) it had stated that when you transplant plants, to thoroughly clean the plant of any soil to avoid contamination of the new site. This was much easier said than done. The soil must have clay or similar material in it, as it was very difficult to remove. Those removing plants from the wild for resale have the same issues. It is very difficult to remove all of the native "muck" from a plant. So they either don't remove all of it, or they remove practically all of the roots from the plant to make the process easier. Sarracenias have an extensive root system, so lack of genreous root system or the presence the the black "muck" on the rhizome and root area is normally an indicator that it recently living in the wild. I'd be interested in hearing of any other "sleuths" out there who can come up with other ideas to determine whether a plant is wild collected or not. Michael Catalani ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:56:15 EST Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade The talk of wild collected plants has made me think of a question I had, and I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to it. Many moons ago, ICPN ran a story on Cresco Nurseries in Holland, and their extensive CP propagation efforts. The picture on the cover of ICPN showed a shot inside the greenhouse in which grew 6 million or so flytraps. In a later edition of ICPN, an article (I believe by Larry Mellichamp, but not sure) had said that a Holland nursery featured in ICPN was believed to be mass propagating vft's until "keen eyes" proved otherwise. I took this to be that someone looking at the pictures from Cresco in ICPN spotted something to prove that the flytraps were field collected. Does anyone know if it was Cresco they were referring to, and if so, what the person saw in the pictures? Was it the soil they were growing in? Or did they spot a native Carolina plant in a pot growing with the flytrap? Michael Catalani ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:13:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Identifying field collected Sarracenia by prey Dear Barry, >Were the plants field collected or propagated, you may ask... > >It is impossible to tell. But there is a clue... Do you think it could be possible to identify field collected Sarracenia, as opposed to greenhouse cultivated plants, by the insects that are caught in the pitchers? Perhaps the relative abundance of insects or the taxonomic groups would be useful. Hey Dan, I doubt it. Someone might be growing their plants out doors, but within normal Sarracenia range. The prey spectrum would probably be quite similar. Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:31:54 EST Subject: Re: N. maxima (highland Sulawesi) not pitchering << Hi Everyone-- I have a N. maxima that hasn't produced a single new pitcher since its 1/2" stem started growing (currently 8" tall and 2 feet across). There remains a single fully developed pitcher about 6" from the ground rosette, and 8 upper leaves with stiff tendrils and no sign of enlarging pitchers. They haven't browned or dessicated in any way, and because the plant pitchered fine under the same growing conditions earlier, I'm assuming the humidity and temps are okay--although recently with the energy crisis, house temps have fallen into the 50 degree fahrenheit range, but the plant wasn't pitchering even before then. I have the plant in an orchid basket over my kitchen sink and it gets full morning sun for several hours. Other than the basket wires which the petioles have leaned themselves on, there is no support for the tough stem. Could this be my problem? Have any of you experienced a stubborn to pitcher maxima before? BTW, my plant originates from Malesiana Tropicals via ! a US source. Thanks, Gary Kong >> I have malesiana's maximas in my highland nep house (even have the lowland forms) and I can tell you that the 50 degree nights wont be a problem as long as the day temps can exceed 70 degrees. If the tendrils are short (2-3 inches) the problem could be that the day temps are a little cool. (My plants have experienced The plant may also be preparing to flower now, as every flowering size maxima I own right now is in flower. N. maxima's is one Npenethes that seems to have no problem pitchering even if the tendril doesnt grab. But I believe from what you describe that the problem may in fact be humidity related. While the plant was smaller, the local humidity provided by the soil in the basket allowed pitchers to develop. If the plant has exceed the size of the pot (or basket), then the local humidity provided by the pot isn't reaching the tendril ends. This problem may go away as soon a spring arrives, and the natural humidity in the air begins to rise. (It's normally very dry in the winter) Or you may try to cover the entire plant in plastic for a few weeks. That should tell you if its humidity related or not. Michael Catalani ################### From: john green Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:36:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Identifying field collected Sarracenia by prey > Do you think it could be possible to identify field collected > Sarracenia, as opposed to greenhouse cultivated plants, by the > insects that are caught in the pitchers? Perhaps the relative > abundance of insects or the taxonomic groups would be useful. > > Hey Dan, > > I doubt it. Someone might be growing their plants out doors, > but within normal Sarracenia range. The prey spectrum would > probably be quite similar. > > Barry Also, consider that plants propagated for sale need not be grown in a greenhouse. One listserv member purchased land with a population of Sarracenia and grows them for hobby and wholesale. Then the plants would have both prey found in the wild and soil from the wild. It's perfectly legal and ethical, and the land isn't being ruined. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:10:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copying back issues of CPN >i am seeking someone who is willing to photocopy issues 1-5 of the ipsg >newsletter for me. i can trade real issues of the cpn (almost all of them >from 1994-1998), or i can photocopy any article or issue from the cpn >since its inception as a color mag (ca. 1977). if anyone has extra issues >of number 6 (of the ipsg newsletter), i will pay or trade for that as >well. prefer usa person but would certainly appreciate offers from anyone >anywhere. i hope no one out there will be upset about photocopying >copyrighted stuff; but i'll accept the flames if necessary. thanks--mike Consider yourself mildly toasted, Mike. I'm working on the ICPS budget, and lament the rising costs of publication, postage, etc. BUYING back issues of CPN certainly helps the ICPS survive and prosper more than private "presses" such as your own. Crackle crackle crackle! (flame sound effects) Hell hath no fury like an editor scorned! :) Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: RonsNewID@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:29:07 EST Subject: Re: Drosophyllum > << I have a nine month old drosophyllum that is producing flower buds. I > wasn't expecting it to do this for some months here in southern England. > > Should I let it flower or remove the buds? >> Last spring I let mine flower in its first year and the plant showed a steady decline in robustness over the next 3 months. Then it died. (On an exceptionally hot day that included a missed watering. But it was probably doomed anyway.) I mentioned this to Peter D'Amato and he said he had similar experience and to not let it flower its first year. FWIW, this is in California. Ron Sbragia ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:51:45 -0500 Subject: RE: Drosophyllum >I mentioned this to Peter D'Amato and he said he had similar experience and >to not let it flower its first year. Although I, like many of you, admire Peter greatly, the plant did not die because it flowered in the first year. It died because of its growing conditions. I've had D. live 3 years and then die because I let it get too dry. It flowered faithfully each summer. I still have the seed and will try again. I grew mine in 10% peat and 90% sand and watered when the soil became almost completely dry. At times, the plant would wilt because I didn't pay enough attention to watering it. It recovered each time -- except the last time when I was gone for 4 days and wasn't around to notice that it went dry. David ################### From: Andrew Bate Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 18:59:41 +0000 Subject: Anyone interested in a European CP trading page? Hi, Now that Spring is not far off and plants will soon need dividing I am wondering if any of the European based growers out there would be interested a European focussed plant trading list? I currently run a UK based plant trading page at my web site (address below) but have had to turn down adverts in the past from growers living in Europe as I wanted to keep it specifically UK oriented. I know that there is a world-wide list that Rick Walker operates but with phytosanitary certificates being needed when sending plants from Europe to the USA (etc) it seems a good idea to have a European page so that growers can trade amongst themselves without this problem. If anyone is interested then let me know by email (NOT replies to this list please to cut down on traffic) and if I get enough positive responses I shall start one up alongside my UK based page. Regards, Andrew -- andrew@cpuk.org.uk | A UK Specific Guide http://www.cpuk.org.uk | to Carnivorous Plant Resources ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:16:29 +0000 Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade Michael, > >The talk of wild collected plants has made me think of a question I had, and >I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to it. Many moons ago, ICPN ran a >story on Cresco Nurseries in Holland, and their extensive CP propagation >efforts. The picture on the cover of ICPN showed a shot inside the >greenhouse in which grew 6 million or so flytraps. In a later edition of >ICPN, an article (I believe by Larry Mellichamp, but not sure) had said that >a Holland nursery featured in ICPN was believed to be mass propagating vft's >until "keen eyes" proved otherwise. I took this to be that someone looking >at the pictures from Cresco in ICPN spotted something to prove that the >flytraps were field collected. Does anyone know if it was Cresco they were >referring to, and if so, what the person saw in the pictures? Was it the I know that Cresco nurseries sell an awful lot of VFTs so the quantity of 6,000,000 plants is no surprise to me at all. The plants are tissue cultured by a commercial lab in India, though I heard that this source was switched a few years ago because of reliability problems. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:27:35 +0000 Subject: Re: Drosophyllum David and all, > >>I mentioned this to Peter D'Amato and he said he had similar experience and > >>to not let it flower its first year. > >Although I, like many of you, admire Peter greatly, the plant did not die >because it flowered in the first year. It died because of its growing >conditions. I've had D. live 3 years and then die because I let it get too >dry. It flowered faithfully each summer. I still have the seed and will >try again. > >I grew mine in 10% peat and 90% sand and watered when the soil became almost >completely dry. At times, the plant would wilt because I didn't pay enough >attention to watering it. It recovered each time -- except the last time >when I was gone for 4 days and wasn't around to notice that it went dry. > Interestingly plants in the wild will often apparently die off completely during the dry season but return to growth once the rains return. The key to growing this species seems to be to use a large enough pot so fluctuations in soil moisture during the dry season are minimised. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:29:51 EST Subject: Re: Identifying field collected Sarracenia by prey << Also, consider that plants propagated for sale need not be grown in a greenhouse. One listserv member purchased land with a population of Sarracenia and grows them for hobby and wholesale. Then the plants would have both prey found in the wild and soil from the wild. It's perfectly legal and ethical, and the land isn't being ruined. John Green >> I remember years ago that Bob Hanrahan from WIP (World Insectivorous Plants) did this as well. Doing this properly can be a very good thing, as the site is managed and taken care of. A peson who buys land to protect these plants and ensure their survival is doing the plants a service, even if they sell some of the plants. Over the span of a few years a properly maintained stand of Sarracenia will generate a tremendous amount of material. Anyone who sells plants from their own land in which they are actively managing to ensure the survival of the site should be encouraged to do so. Not only is it legal and ethical, it should be supported. On the flip side, someone who treks down to the gulf a few times a year to collect Sarracenia from a site that does not belong to them, even under the pretense that the site is about to be destroyed, and sells the plants are doing us, and especially the future of these plants, a monumental disservice. Sarracenia are very easily propagated, and can be done so very cheaply. Someone who buys a plot of land in which Sarracenia naturally grow wouldnt be doing so just to sell off the Sarracenia plants that were on it, it wouldnt be worth money. They could, for far less money, develop a greenhouse range and propagate the plants. I know at times I can sound a little overbearing about field collecting plants. However, selling ones own plants from one's own land that one is managing is something that I totally support, and I wish more private owners could get involved in this way. Michael Catalani ################### From: "Duggins, Stephen R" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:39:22 -0800 Subject: Nepenthes ultra basic soil Thanks to all the people who responded about my Cephalotus problems. I think I will experiment with the three struggling pots and keep them under the various conditions, (40 - 75 Deg. F, 60 - 75 Deg. F, 70 Deg. F), and see which one does the best. I'll keep you posted. I am new to the list and read with interest the info about laterite in the archives. After reading about the soil less Nepenthes mix in last year's CPN, I decided to try it for myself. Since I don't live in Germany, I had to substitute components. I found expanded clay pellets for hydroponic orchid use at the local Home Depot, as well as red volcanic rock. After looking for a Seramis-like product, I heard about laterite and specifically a baked laterite product from Seachem called Flourite. These seemed to be too rich in iron, so I cut the proportion of this in half and substituted white pumice rock for a final mix of 2:2:1:1 of expanded clay pellets : red volcanic rock : laterite or Flourite : white pumice with a time-release fertilizer added per the instructions in the CPN article. I don't have a lot of extra Nepenthes but I did have three small 2", 3" and 5" N. mirabilis that I separated from a larger plant with roots intact. I planted the smallest one in the mix with the Flourite and the 3" in the mix with the laterite, and the 5" in my standard Nepenthes mix, (below with extra peat added), in 4" pots. I put them both in a tray with 1/2" of water in a greenhouse with 70%-80% R.H., 75-90 Degrees F., under two 40 watt fluorescent bulbs. The smallest plant, in Flourite, died after 3 weeks. I think this was due to the fertilizer and the size of the plant, (small roots), and not the Fluorite as I have added Flourite to other plants and they seem to love it - nice and dark green. The other plant is still growing strong after four months, having doubled in size. The leaves are darker green, but the pitchers are smaller than the similar sized, slower growing plant, in the more traditional mix. I know this is not even close to scientific method - but it was fun and interesting! Which brings me to another question. Has anyone tried creating an ultramafic soil mix? I took my standard Nepenthes recipe: approximately 70% fir bark, 8% red lava rock, 8% white pumice, 7% sand, and 7% peat moss; and added three pinches of granulated dolomotic lime and a small handful of Flourite to a 4" pot. The N. rajah got a top dressing and is growing well. The N. rafflesiana "Giant" also got a top dressing and is growing as slowly as it was before the treatment. The N. northiana was accidentally uprooted and is slowly recovering from shock, (hopefully). The N. burbidgeae is growing very slowly and put out one new leaf that is 1/3 the size of previous leaves, that were grown in its previous environment before I got the plant. Its really too soon to make any conclusions, and with no control plants impossible to make any. Anyone else out there with similar experiments? Steve Duggins 714 - 762 - 0562 ################### From: Biodan@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:26:17 EST Subject: Darlingtonia in a classroom I just got a Darlingtonia at the local Lowe's. (First time I've tried this. A bit hot here in Georgia to keep them outside!) Nice healthy looking little plant - and I want it to stay that way! I want to keep it in my Biology classroom. The idea I had was to place it in a tray into which I would add ice chips daily (keeping it cool). Then I can place it at a south-facing window, under a grow light, or an ambient light condition with reflected sunlight and 'normal' room flourescents. Any suggestions? And would a potting mix suitable for Sarracenias be sufficient? Dan [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:30:52 -0200 Subject: Re: A & D Dear Jan, Filippo, and Ivan, (BTW: VFT and D are the same thing below = Dionaea. Aldrovanda appears as A. Drosera is Drosera.) > Interesting, but you should include _Ancistrocladus_ in your > analysis.... blablabla This is exactly what I wanted to avoid doing: > /Nepenthaceae > | > | /Ancistrocladaceae > |/+ > /+|\Dioncophyllaceae > |\+ > | \-Drosophyllaceae > /+ > |\Droseraceae > | > | /Plumbaginaceae > |/+ > ||\Polygonaceae > /+| > |\+/Tamaricaceae > | \+ > | \Frankeniaceae > /+ > |\Simmondsiaceae > | > | /Chenopodiaceae > | /+ > | |\Amaranthaceae > |/+ > ||\Nyctaginaceae > \+ > \Portulacaceae Except you, me and a few other phylogeny nuts, I don't think anybody else wasted time trying to understand the above. I was trying to make it as simple and as accessible as possible. Especially because most people here have never heard of any other of these non-CP plant families and couldn't care less about them. Furthermore, whoever wanted to know more could always go check out your excellent article about the subject in CPN! :):) > Is _Drosera_ monophyletic (incl. _D. regia_) in your trees? Yes. But in some trees it appeared on a branch with A&D. The bootstrap value was not high either way, but higher when Drosera were monophyletic. > Also separate origin of pitchers is unlikely, but there is the case of > Sarraceniaceae, Cephalotus and Nepenthes which almost surely developed their > traps indipendently. > Why the same thing couldn't have happened to snap traps? Humm, I believe pitchers are a whole different story. Like the sticky leaves of Drosophyllum, Pinguicula, Roridula, and many non-CPs, pitchers are a relatively "simple" trap type. Maybe not as simple as sticky leaves, but which certainly take fewer mutations to evolve than something as complex as a snap-trap which involves fast movement of the lobes and communication through trigger hairs. Have you ever noticed that one touch to the trigger hiars does not close a VFT trap? And that water doesn't close it either, not even a strong spray?? Imagine the celular adaptations involved here... Not to mention that the traps have to reopen themselves after digestion and absorption are completed. Pitchers just sit there. They may release enzymes and absorb nutrients, but the beauty of the traps is something easily evolved through natural selection by any plant that needs to attract insects (pollination or predation). The pitcher seems to be a simple folding of the leaf, if I remember well, shown by the mid-rib "scar" (although I think maybe Cephalotus might be of peltate origin, an invagination instead of folding... Jan help me here!). Folding of leaves into tubular formats does not appear to me to be nearly as specialized as the A&D leaf morphology. So because it is less "difficult" to evolve is probably why we see 3 possible evolutionary origins for pitcher traps (Nepenthaceae, Sarraceniaceae, and Cephalotaceae) and so many sticky traps with at least a few evolutionary origins. > About Aldrovanda, it is clearly related to Drosera, but it is completely > different morphologically; and this is obvious if you admit the very ancient > origin of this genus. If I remember well, detailed morphological studies of the traps showed instead that they were in fact very similar. Just because one is aquatic and the other terrestrial does not make them completely different. Look at Utrics! We've got aquatic, terrestrials, affixed aquatics, epiphytic, tuberous, rheophytic -- a vast variety of adaptations in a single genus! And much more recent too, evolution-wise. > Dionaea, on the other hand, is still very similar to some species of the > genus Drosera, which should be very strange if the two genera separated more > than 65 millions years ago. Just because it's terrestrial? Flower-wise, Aldrovanda is much more similar to Drosera than VFT. Pollen-wise too. > 1) Firstly, it is most reasonable that the aquatic Aldrovanda trap evolved from a trap more like Dionaea's out of water because the sundew trap does not function at all under water. There must have first been a trap more like Dionaea's to begin with which gave rise to Aldrovanda's. So the most logical order is Sundew-Dionaea-Aldrovanda. I agree. But just because A is "farther" away from Drosera does not mean it will be as a whole more different from Drosera. Characters usually evolve independently. So the ancestor of A&D may not have looked like either plant, but may have been a mixture of both. So it is not at all strange that certain characters of A are more like those of Drosera even if you believe that it evolved from a VFT-like ancestor. So the 5 styles of A might have been present in the common ancestor of A&D, but was lost in the VFT lineage (actually, not lost, but incremented in number). On the other hand the common A&D ancestor was probably terrestrial, but this was lost in the A lineage as these evolved into aquatic plants. You see? Evolution goes both ways. All ways. That's why we can't say, for example, that the ancestor of Drosera looked like Drosophyllum. Their sticky traps probably had a common evolutionary origin, but both have been evolving separately for who-knows-how-many-million-years. So some of the Drosophyllum characteristics may be "primitive" while other may be derived -- and same with Drosera. >2) Secondly, as I pointed out before, the chromosome counts of Aldrovanda 2n = 48 hexaploid [BTW Jan, triploids are sterile] and Dionaea 2n = 32 tetraploid enforce reason number one. This is interesting! Did you find this yourself? Where are the plants from? 3)Third and last, Fernando's DNA sequencing shows that Dionaea and Aldrovanda are indeed very close. Well, it shows they're close, but hasn't yet led me to any conclusion regarding the two possible family trees I sent previously (although I do think it's more likely that A&D are on the same branch, sister to Drosera, showing a single origin of the snap traps). > It is true that Aldrovanda's flower is more like a sundew's. This is the obstacle I think is troubling you. I reconcile this by what Jan says, "these evolved long ago"; so the split must have occurred before Dionaea was as it is presently. The proto-Dionaea surely had a flower much like Aldrovanda's. Hope this clears things up. Ooops, I repeated you above! So we agree...:) Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:40:27 -0200 Subject: re: U. longifolia "Serra da Araponga" white fl. To Chrsi and all, > Sorry for dropping in, but I have a question that someone of you might > answer. Can the leaf shape be variable on this species under it's > development from a juvenile to a mature plant? I've never grown it from seeds, so I can't be sure. But I sure do see lots of variation in leaf shape in the wild! > The reason I'm asking is that I received a juvenile U. longifolia (White > flower, Serra da Araponga) late last year. It has been doing great so > far and the leaves has grown quite a bit. When I first got it, the small > leaves were long and thin like I had expected, but the latest leaves are > much stockier. I just wondered if this is normal or if it might be an > invironmental thing. It's probably environmental, I've seen this stockyness X fragile leaves in the wild as well. Anyways, congratulations on growing this plant! I consider this plant one of my most important finds. What a fantastic day it was back in 1996 when we reached the top of the Serra da Araponga and were dazzled by loads of U.longifolia covering the boggy, grassy mountain top -- half of them albino and half normal. Yet "normal" was hardly the word, since this local form (albino or not) had more flowers per scape than at any other site I've ever seen this species. Not to mention the D.villosa and G.lobata we saw there.... Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil P.S. Has anyone got these albino U.longifolia to flower yet??????? ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:51:54 -0600 Subject: Artificial Bog and water recirculation... After several years of being out of the CP cultivation hobby (usual excuses - got married, went to school, got broke, bought a house, started a business, etc...) I'm finally getting back into it. For some reason I'm convinced that live spagnum grown in containers and the plants grown therein will grow better if the water is flowing and have devised a little submerged pump in a 10gal reservoir and a drain system that will circulate rain-water through several 4" deep containers into which I'll plant my spagnum and plants. I'm just seeking re-affirmation on the wisdom of this. I feel that standing water leads to a collection of toxins from decomposition, plant waste and stagnation that circulation, and aeration within the reservoir with an aquarium air pump to promote the aerobic breakdown of toxins and waste, will help keep the water fresh and the spagnum healthy. I believe healthy spagnum usually means healthy plants. I figure I'll perhaps get some crushed volcanic rock to filter the water through and aerate the rock to give the cleansing aerobic bacteria something to hang on to. In nature, bogs are usually adjacent to streams and benefit from a little current there as well as run-off from rainwater that potted plants don't enjoy and I am hoping to mimic nature. By adjusting the height of the flexible drain pipes I can regulate the depth of the water from 1/2 inch to full to mimic wet and dry periods. I can also regulate the rate of circulation from 1 to 4 gallons per hour. I could also put the pump on a timer and circulate a little every day. Back in the good ol' days I had numerous milk jug bottoms which were all but over-flowing with healthy spagnum which I kept at least 3/4 full of water. As a result, my CP's were also very happy. I'm hoping I can get that kind of success and better with a recirculation system. It'll at least make it easier to water the plants - I just keep the reservoir topped off. As soon as I get the system assembled and working I'll post some pics. A trip to Walmart and $70 bucks of drip irrigation parts, pond pump and hose pretty much does the trick. I'll probably have to vent the main drain hose that the smaller drain hoses connect to in order to prevent a siphoning effect. Suggestions and input is certainly welcome. Cheers, Mike ################### From: jneps Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:08:08 -0700 Subject: Re: Nepenthes ultra basic soil Hi Stephen, I have been growing a number of the plants you mention for several years. During that time, I have not attempted to provide any sort of unusual compost. While I cannot state with certainty that this is unimportant, I do believe that it is not nearly as critical as one might at first believe. For example, I have grown N. burbidgeae from 1 CM seedlings to near maturity in a 1:1:1 mix of peat, orchid bark and charcoal. Similar results have been obtained with N. northiana, N. rajah, etc. In short, I claim to be no authority, but my results suggest, at least in the case of these species, that environmental conditions and feeding are probably more important than any specific compost. If you're curious about my results, I can send you some pictures. Happy growing! Jeff Shafer Duggins, Stephen R wrote: > > Thanks to all the people who responded about my Cephalotus problems. I think > I will experiment with the three struggling pots and keep them under the > various conditions, (40 - 75 Deg. F, 60 - 75 Deg. F, 70 Deg. F), and see > which one does the best. I'll keep you posted. > > I am new to the list and read with interest the info about laterite in the > archives. After reading about the soil less Nepenthes mix in last year's > CPN, I decided to try it for myself. Since I don't live in Germany, I had to > substitute components. I found expanded clay pellets for hydroponic orchid > use at the local Home Depot, as well as red volcanic rock. After looking for > a Seramis-like product, I heard about laterite and specifically a baked > laterite product from Seachem called Flourite. These seemed to be too rich > in iron, so I cut the proportion of this in half and substituted white > pumice rock for a final mix of 2:2:1:1 of expanded clay pellets : red > volcanic rock : laterite or Flourite : white pumice with a time-release > fertilizer added per the instructions in the CPN article. I don't have a lot > of extra Nepenthes but I did have three small 2", 3" and 5" N. mirabilis > that I separated from a larger plant with roots intact. I planted the > smallest one in the mix with the Flourite and the 3" in the mix with the > laterite, and the 5" in my standard Nepenthes mix, (below with extra peat > added), in 4" pots. I put them both in a tray with 1/2" of water in a > greenhouse with 70%-80% R.H., 75-90 Degrees F., under two 40 watt > fluorescent bulbs. The smallest plant, in Flourite, died after 3 weeks. I > think this was due to the fertilizer and the size of the plant, (small > roots), and not the Fluorite as I have added Flourite to other plants and > they seem to love it - nice and dark green. The other plant is still growing > strong after four months, having doubled in size. The leaves are darker > green, but the pitchers are smaller than the similar sized, slower growing > plant, in the more traditional mix. I know this is not even close to > scientific method - but it was fun and interesting! > > Which brings me to another question. Has anyone tried creating an ultramafic > soil mix? I took my standard Nepenthes recipe: approximately 70% fir bark, > 8% red lava rock, 8% white pumice, 7% sand, and 7% peat moss; and added > three pinches of granulated dolomotic lime and a small handful of Flourite > to a 4" pot. The N. rajah got a top dressing and is growing well. The N. > rafflesiana "Giant" also got a top dressing and is growing as slowly as it > was before the treatment. The N. northiana was accidentally uprooted and is > slowly recovering from shock, (hopefully). The N. burbidgeae is growing very > slowly and put out one new leaf that is 1/3 the size of previous leaves, > that were grown in its previous environment before I got the plant. Its > really too soon to make any conclusions, and with no control plants > impossible to make any. Anyone else out there with similar experiments? > > Steve Duggins > 714 - 762 - 0562 ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:47:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Darlingtonia in a classroom Dan, Is your classroom air conditioned at night as well as during the day? What about during the summer? I've known people to have good success growing Darlingtonia indoors under lights in air conditioning. But if they turn the ac down at night, that could be bad... Darlingtonia are used to cool nights and warm days. I've had pretty good success growing them outside here in hot and humid St. Louis by sinking the whole pot in the lid of a large white styrofoam box, and keeping the plant in mostly shade (a little early morning sun). Indoors, I would be inclined to grow them under lights instead of the south window, but that's just my guess. In nature, I've seen them out in the blazing full sun, but they were rooted on a sheer cliff with constant cold water running down around their roots. Use a very well-drained media, even more so than for Sarracenia. Straight live sphagnum moss works, or a combination of dried sphagnum, perlite, a little peat and sand, etc. Also, I generally don't let my Darlingtonia sit in stagnant water (they might like to sit in constantly recirulated and aerated water, but not stagnant water). Good luck! Susan > I just got a Darlingtonia at the local Lowe's. (First time I've > tried this. A bit hot here in Georgia to keep them outside!) Nice > healthy looking little plant - and I want it to stay that way! I want > to keep it in my Biology classroom. The idea I had was to place it in > a tray into which I would add ice chips daily (keeping it cool). Then > I can place it at a south-facing window, under a grow light, or an > ambient light condition with reflected sunlight and 'normal' room > flourescents. Any suggestions? And would a potting mix suitable for > Sarracenias be sufficient? > Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:02:15 -0800 Subject: Re: Ping Stalking Prey >>I don't recall that any of my Pinguicula ever displayed bare flower stalks. From memory all have glands and insects are quite frequently trapped. It makes sense for such succulent (I mean this in the cullenary sense) plants to protect themselves from ravaging insects. As to wheher the glands can digest, on this I am no expert Paul Temple Hi Paul and all, Althought the flower stalks of Pinguicula do have retentive glands and are able to capture insects, the stalks lack the separate unstalked nonsticky digestive glands found on the leaf surface. Therefore, the flower stalks cannot secrete any digestive fluid. The sticky glands on the flower stalks are for deterring insects which might feed on the flowers. Many noncarnivarous plants also have such sticky glands located on their flower stalks for this purpose. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 11:53:47 -0600 Subject: Re: Darlingtonia in a classroom I grew mine inside in an apartment by a north facing window with supplimental light from grow-lights with 14-16 hours of light during the peak growing season. Normal comfortable air-conditioning day and night. The compost was straight live spagnum and they were planted in milk jug bottoms (a milk jug with the top cut off). I used rain water and when the water level almost bottomed out I'd fill it back up to 3/4 full (3/4 up to the top of the spagnum). The Darlings loved it and even sent off a whole mess of shoots that became new plants and very quickly over-grew their modest bog. I'd feed the mature traps a baby cricket from the local pet store, and occasionally a small roach (bachelor in an apartment - there will definately be a roach or two...). If you use a similar setup, one thing I'd do a little different in hindsite is periodically drain all the water and give it a good flushing with fresh rain-water to remove any buildup - even rainwater contains minute amounts of salts that can build up after time. A laboratory water pump like one from Edmund Scientifics could be used to flush it out. I'm experimenting with a built in recirculation system that would eliminate some of that work and make managing water levels and water quality much easier. Make it a project for the students. IMHO, rain-water is better for them than even distilled water. It's already acidified from atmospheric nitrogen and probably has super-minute quantities of nutrients picked up from the air that the spagnum finds palatable. I'd run out to the water drain spout with a handfull of jugs every time it rained. Now I've got a 35 gallon plastic trash-can that I've converted into a sort of cistern. Keep a screen on it to limit mosquitoes - or seal it back up after the storm. Cheers, Mike Susan Farrington wrote: > > Dan, > > Is your classroom air conditioned at night as well as during the day? > What about during the summer? I've known people to have good > success growing Darlingtonia indoors under lights in air conditioning. > But if they turn the ac down at night, that could be bad... Darlingtonia > are used to cool nights and warm days. I've had pretty good success > growing them outside here in hot and humid St. Louis by sinking the > whole pot in the lid of a large white styrofoam box, and keeping the > plant in mostly shade (a little early morning sun). Indoors, I would be > inclined to grow them under lights instead of the south window, but > that's just my guess. In nature, I've seen them out in the blazing full > sun, but they were rooted on a sheer cliff with constant cold water > running down around their roots. > > Use a very well-drained media, even more so than for Sarracenia. > Straight live sphagnum moss works, or a combination of dried > sphagnum, perlite, a little peat and sand, etc. Also, I generally don't let > my Darlingtonia sit in stagnant water (they might like to sit in > constantly recirulated and aerated water, but not stagnant water). > > Good luck! > > Susan > > > I just got a Darlingtonia at the local Lowe's. (First time I've > > tried this. A bit hot here in Georgia to keep them outside!) Nice > > healthy looking little plant - and I want it to stay that way! I want > > to keep it in my Biology classroom. The idea I had was to place it in > > a tray into which I would add ice chips daily (keeping it cool). Then > > I can place it at a south-facing window, under a grow light, or an > > ambient light condition with reflected sunlight and 'normal' room > > flourescents. Any suggestions? And would a potting mix suitable for > > Sarracenias be sufficient? > > > > Susan Farrington > Missouri Botanical Garden > P.O. Box 299 > St. Louis MO 63166-0299 > susan.farrington@mobot.org > (314)577-9402 ################### From: Robert Ziemer Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 10:09:29 -0800 Subject: re: Copying back issues of CPN Barry, I absolutely do not wish to unleash "Hell hath no fury", and, I am certain that I am poorly informed, but I wonder if ICPS has considered an Internet subscription service for CPN? I have encountered at least three versions of on-line journals: 1) an electronic journal available free to anyone. See http://www.freemedicaljournals.com/ 2) an electronic journal free to those members that subscribe to the hard-copy journal. See http://earth.agu.org/wrr/wrr_general.html#access 3) an electronic journal that is available by subscription only. See http://www.nrc.ca/cisti/journals/cjfas/fish1-97.html I am not suggesting that any one of the above models would fit CPN, but it might be a mechanism to reduce costs and increase readership. Bob Ziemer Barry wrote: > I'm working on the ICPS budget, and lament the rising costs of > publication, postage, etc. BUYING back issues of CPN certainly helps the > ICPS survive and prosper more than private "presses" such as your own. > > Crackle crackle crackle! (flame sound effects) Hell hath no fury like an > editor scorned! :) > > Barry ################### From: "mike wilder" Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 19:54:52 -0000 Subject: "private presses" hello barry and group, so, the flames have come. what you say is fair enough barry, Except that many issues of the cpn are out of print. i think that if i were offering to sell (copies of) any color issue of the cpn for a substantial discount over the back issue price, that would be truly reprehensible and actually threaten the icps. however, given that many of the issues are not available from the icps (including several from the 90's!), i don't think that offering to trade a photocopy for a photocopy of (the entirely out of print) ipsg journals has any real effect on the icps. i tried to buy back issues of the ipsgn but that isn't possible; i'm assuming that whoever could trade with me is in the same boat vis a vis the cpn. i also think that if something is truly out of print, one is entitled to photocopy it in order to have access to the info. i believe this is especially true of the cpn, since very few libraries carry it. in sum--i encourage everyone to buy back issues from the icps, but if they aren't available, i say it's okay to copy if you need the info.--mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 15:37:44 EST Subject: Re: "private presses" Mike, Which issues of CPN are out of print? Volumes 1-6 are black/white photocopies, but that is as dire as it gets. All look to be available from the ICPS Membership Form, including the first six. If you encourage everyone to buy from the ICPS what they can't get anywhere else, then they can buy all issues from the ICPS that have ever existed. There is no need to photocopy any of them. BTW, forgive me, but what is the "ipsg?" Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: RonsNewID@aol.com Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 15:38:09 EST Subject: Re: Drosophyllum >>>I mentioned this to Peter D'Amato and he said he had >similar >>>experience and >> >> >>>to not let it flower its first year. >> >> >>Although I, like many of you, admire Peter greatly, >the plant did not >>die because it flowered in the first year. It died >because of its >>growing conditions. I've had D. live 3 years and then die >because I >>let it get too dry. It flowered faithfully each summer. I still >>>have the seed and will try again. >> >>I grew mine in 10% peat and 90% sand and watered when >the soil became >>almost completely dry. At times, the plant would wilt >because I >>didn't pay enough attention to watering it. It recovered each time -- >>>except the last time when I was gone for 4 days and wasn't around to >>>notice that it went dry. >> >Interestingly plants in the wild will often apparently >die off >completely during the dry season but return to growth >once the rains >return. The key to growing this species seems to be to >use a large >enough pot so fluctuations in soil moisture during the >dry season are >minimised. > It may be that I didn't give the plant enough water. This was my first attempt with this plant. It grew in an 8" clay pot filled with equal parts perlite, sand, lava rock, and vermiculite. I gave it a watering schedule of 1/2 pint of water twice a week. This wasn't enough to drain out the bottom of the pot but I felt this was ok since the plant is supposed to be kept on the dry side, and having it drain would make the soil very wet. The bad thing about the schedule was that while it was constant, the weather wasn't - it got increasingly warm through March, April and May. However, as the plant was declining in apparent health (although the flowers looked great), it didn't show noticable improvement after it was watered, as some plants in need of water do. The reason I mentioned Peter's experience was that while mine was limited to one dead plant, he said that his was with 2 groups of plants in their first year. One of which was left to flower and the other wasn't. Ron Sbragia ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:06:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: re: Copying back issues of CPN > I absolutely do not wish to unleash "Hell hath no fury", and, I am > certain that I am poorly informed, but I wonder if ICPS has considered > an Internet subscription service for CPN? Hey Robert, An internet subscription is an interesting idea, but I don't know of anyone on the ICPS board or volunteers who are thinking about taking on this kind of project yet. Somewhat allied with this is our back-issue situation. Although I have long been a big fan of keeping back issues in storage, the cost for doing this is so great that it is barely a break-even prospect for us, while it *does* cost a lot in volunteer effort. So I've been looking more and more closely at the prospect of producing our backs in CD ROM format. This would be much cheaper for us to do, I think. It would also cost less in shipping and storage, and could be very searchable. Furthermore, we are actually running out of some of our back issues. What will we do with the ones we still have, if we move to CD ROM? Compost them, probably! I'm taking off for a week, so don't expect another comment from me on this for a bit. Later! Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "mp" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:47:10 -0500 Subject: Utricularia article in Science News Science News weekly magazine, vol. 159 for February 3, 2001 contains an brief article on bladderworts on page 69. The article mentions the work of Jennifer H. Richards of Florida International University in Miami. She proposes that there must be some sort of symbiotic relationship between the plant and microbes (e.g. photosynthetic algae, rotifers) in the traps. While the plant may benefit from the presence of these microbes, it is not clear how the microbes would benefit from living inside the bladders. After examining the contents of 1,400 bladders under the microscope, she discovered that insect larvae and other larger creatures were found in only 6% of the bladders. She says that although the bladders do absorb nutrients from prey, it is unlikely that the rare prey could make up for the amoung of resource the plant dedicates to producing the bladders. She calculates that, on average, one quarter of the plant biomass is dedicated to bladders. Her paper appears in the January issue of the American Journal of Botany. Also mentioned in this article is the work of Thomas Miller of Florida State University in Tallahassee. He did research on Sarracenia purpurea. He notes that this plant does not secrete any flesh-eating enzymes within the trap, and in fact several insect larvae survive only inside the pitchers. The plant seems to absorb nutrients shed by the larvae. Perry Malouf [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Bruce Salmon" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:38:22 +1300 Subject: U. longifolia (Sierra Araponga) I too have a plant of the white flowered U. longifolia from Sierra Araponga. I planted the seed about a year ago in spag among my D. prolifera in my heated greenhouse (min 20C). About 4 months later I noticed a few very slender leaves emerging from the pot. These were dug out, potted up and put in mu cool greenhouse for the summer. Now there are at least 10 leaves about 20cm long. U. longifolia seems to grow to full size very quickly. Bruce ################### From: "Bruce Salmon" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:03:19 +1300 Subject: Flaming Drosophyllum Here are a few experiences I've had with drosophyllum... in my unheated Glasshouse in Auckland NZ. I grew my first plant from seed in a small pot in Autumn. When it was about 5cm high I tipped it out of the pot and removed most of the mix from the roots. A taproot descends from the plant about 6cm or so and then lateral roots form. I potted the plant in a mix of 80/20 pummice sand/peat in a 10L bucket sized pot. The top 2cm was a layer of fine and coarse pummice. The seedling survived this proceedure and rapidly grew to about 40cm across by the time early summer arrived. It was stood in a shallow tray of water all winter. During mid summer it flowered profusely and then growth slowed dramatically although it was beginning to sprout from almost every node. At this stage I was only watering it from the top just as the leaves began to wilt. A few months later it died. Luckily I had collected the seed. I tossed the pot under the bench. The following spring I had grown more from seed and ressurected the old pot by cutting off the old stem and planting 2 seedlings in the pot. After a while another shoot arose from under the surface (the previous plant had come back from the dead)!!! - that's after about 8 months of being bone dry. I left all 3 in the pot although each only grew to about 20cm across. After they flowered and I collected the seed I decided to clean up the ring of dead leaves by the only means I know how. Thats right the pyromaniac voices in my head told me to set fire to them! It was quite an intense conflagration and the label went all twisty. Now I'm looking at 3 black stumps (1 has a green shoot still). It'll be interesting to see what happens from here. I've used the fire method before to clean up D. capensis. It worked well with the plants becoming healthier and sprouting more too. Bruce ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 03:23:48 EST Sub