################### From: Dionaea@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:05:30 EST Subject: Pets and CP Looking at pot of Byblis aquatica that has been dying ever since i moved it to the Pinguicula window sill, I was all excited because I thought I saw a new Pinguicula take hold in that pot. Then I looked at some of my other pings (which for the first time in my 20 years of growing CP have not died yet and look like they were surviving the winter OK). Then to my horror, I saw the pot. It looke like some insect had been eating it. Quickly I came to the conclusion that insects don't usually scatter the leaves everywhere - it had to be something else... What caused this plant to look like something enjoyed a wonderful Pinguicula salad? Well, it turns out that my female Pacific Parrotlet decided that she had had enough of here own food and wanted to try something else! Luckily, it was not a prized plant, but an unidentified Ping that has not yet flowered for me yet. Moral of the story, if you protect your plants at all cost! Even from Pets that you think will never be interested in them. Now to the safety question: Are Pinguicula safe for Parrots to eat? No, i am not contemplating feeding her more, I just want to make sure that she won't get sick... Anyone? Hope you had a wonderful new year. ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 22:30:58 +0100 Subject: Small D. montana tomentosa flowering Hi, I have a D. montana tomentosa, Serra da Canastra that has started to send up a flower stalk. It is only about 2 cm in diameter and one of its siblings, which is a little bit larger, show no sign of flowering (yet). Do this species usually flower at this size, anyone with experience? Does it require cross-pollination to produce seed? Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: "A.J. Paton" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:03:45 -0000 Subject: Rampant sphagnum Hi list & happy new year! I am in the process of carrying out some much needed gardening in my greenhouse, to clear away all of the dead material etc. A large amount of sphagnum moss has gradually been taking over an area under a bench. Most of this has burried D. capensis & binata plants - what's that?...you think I should let it carry on growing? :-O. Anyway, as these CP's seem to grow quite fast, I was wondering how other people "managed" their sphagnum - should I be pruning the moss regularly, or should the plants come bursting through the moss again when spring arrives? Now that I have a bucket full of moss, what is the best way to store it? - would it be OK to leave it in the bucket in the greenhouse until spring, when it can be used for repotting (& my Mum's hanging baskets!)?. Cheers, A.J. ################### From: Bravoanus1@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 20:45:16 EST Subject: Re: cephalotus In a message dated 01-01-01 03:36:24 EST, you write: << Hi, if anyone has any cephalotus (not giant) for sale in the USA please email me.. thank you! :) >> I am interested in these, too...bravoanus1@aol.com ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:27:38 +0930 Subject: Tropical Drosera I'm just back from 3 weeks holiday. At the start of my holiday I went with some friends to Litchfield National Park, which is about 150km from Darwin. I'd seen drosera there a few years ago, and I was keeping a look out for them, but I didn't see any in what I thought were the obvious places. The last place we went to in the Park is a spot called the Bulli Rockholes. This is very popular with the tourists as it consists of a series of rock pools, through which there is a constant flow of water (even during the Dry Season). In the peak of the Wet Season, the water is more a torrential flood. When we got there, the first thing I noticed was that there were drosera in abundance. I know very little about drosera. These were all small rosettes (no more than 2 cm diameter) that were a dark pink-red in colour. Nearly all had flower stalks (and pink flowers). Possibly they were d. petiolaris, but I haven't seen a picture of one and only have a description from the "Savage Garden" as a guide. (If someone could point me to a website with good photos, I might be able to make a more positive identification). They were all growing very near to the water's edge on the slime that collected around other plants roots. Many appeared to be growing on the surface of the boulders and these reminded me very much of starfish clinging to marine rocks. I would very much recommend this location to any CP enthusiast visiting Darwin. It's worth visiting for the various pools, and small waterfalls - the abundance and proximity of the drosera are a definite bonus. Being a National Park, the flora is protected. I did remove a few dead flower stalks and when I got home I tapped them over a damp sand/vermiculite mixture, but I don't really know what I'm doing so if anything springs up I'll be pleasantly surprised. Cheers, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:59:59 +1100 Subject: Re: Tropical Drosera Kevin, By your description, they sound like D. burmannii... but I might be wrong. Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 ph: (03) 62262624 ################### From: Brewer Charles E PHDN Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:04:05 -0500 Subject: RE: cephalotus Howdy, I didn't have a name attached with this email, so I will address you as Howdy :), Anyway, if you are still interested in Cephs, please let me know and I will send details. Thanks, Charles Va. Beach, Va. > << Hi, if anyone has any cephalotus (not giant) for sale in the USA please > > email me.. thank you! :) > >> > I am interested in these, too...bravoanus1@aol.com ################### From: MCliff428@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:24:15 EST Subject: Pinquicula in the Wild In the past year, I have visited various bogs in the Northeast. I have seen Drosera, Sarracenia and Utricularia in abundance, but I have never seen Pinquicula. From what I understand, Butterworts don't grow in bogs, but what type of environment do they grow in? I am interested in viewing this genus in the wild, but I can never seem to find it. Does anyone know of a Pinquicula viewing spot in the Northeast? What type of environment would it grow in? What type of areas should I look for? Thanks. Michael Clifford Morristown, NJ ################### From: chamb@u.arizona.edu Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:30:17 -0700 Subject: Re: Pinquicula in the Wild At 10:34 AM 1/2/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >In the past year, I have visited various bogs in the Northeast. I have seen >Drosera, Sarracenia and Utricularia in abundance, but I have never seen >Pinquicula. From what I understand, Butterworts don't grow in bogs, but what >type of environment do they grow in? I am interested in viewing this genus >in the wild, but I can never seem to find it. Does anyone know of a >Pinquicula viewing spot in the Northeast? What type of environment would it >grow in? What type of areas should I look for? Thanks. In northern Michigan, Pinguicula vulgaris grows in areas called marl fens. These are calcareous seeps usually in the form of a wide delta along a stream leading into a lake or the Great Lakes. These areas are open wetlands, without trees or shrubs, at most a cover of Cyperaceae. They usually have a characteristic white-ashy colored mud (marl) but are perhaps even more recognizable by the large numbers of CP present, in particular, Sarracenia purpurea. Drosera linearis, D. rotundifolia (and hybrids between these Drosera), Utricularia cornuta, U. intermedia, and Pinguicula vulgaris are frequently found growing with the Sarracenia, but each in slightly different microhabitats (on hummocks vs. wet depressions between them). The Pinguicula seems most particular about its substrate and is not found in all marl fens, even those hosting the other species. In Michigan it is restricted to fens along the Great Lakes, but I was surprised to find it growing in mossy cracks in boulders farther north in Ontario (boulders are so rare in Michigan, perhaps it would grow on them there if there were any!) Keep an eye open for Pinguicula wherever you find Primula mistassinica. Michael Chamberland ################### From: Phil Sheridan Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1981 15:17:11 -0800 Subject: Cephalotus Hi Folks: I have noticed several requests for Cephalotus purchase in the United States. Please note that we have this plant in stock. Our catalog may be found at our web site at www.pitcherplant.org. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:55:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: ICPS in 2001 Hey folks, A new year has come, and my Star Trek 2000 calendar has been replaced, to my co-workers chagrin, with a new Star Trek calendar (Kirk is looking tough!). And with the new year, I thought that somebody should welcome in the new board of directors for the ICPS. Leaving our board are Madeleine Groves, Joe Mazrimas, and Rick Walker. Our new board consists of: David Gray--new to the board Cindy Slezak--new to the board John Brittnacher--new to the board ---and persisting with the board, in alphabetical order.... Jay Lechtman Carl Mazur Barry Meyers-Rice Jan Schlauer Those of you who attended the ICPS 2000 conference met David and Cindy, who organized the event. They are amazingly energetic. John Brittnacher has been in charge of the seedbank and web ring, and has done great things for both. All hail the new order! To infinity, and beyond! Never surrender, never give up, full speed ahead! Live long and you know what! Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:31:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neat photos Hi everyone. This past summer during the ICPS Conference, Andrew Broome from New Zealand came by to see my collection along with photographer friend Peter Sebborne. Peter took many photos of my many collections of cp's and indoor lowland growing chamber. Andrew's excellent web page can be found by going to: http://photos.yahoo.com/ajbroome You will find all the photos that were taken and some excellent other photos of their travels on the southeast coast USA. Andrew did me great justice and I want the world to know how thankful I am. My best wishes to you Andrew and to you Peter for an excellent 2001 life experience. I know I'm looking forward to it. Phil Faulisi ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 18:36:03 -0800 Subject: CP Listserv Archives Updated Archives the for this CP listserv from 1990-2000 have been added to the CP database at http://www2.labs.agilent.com/botany/cp/html/marchive.htm The messages can be displayed sorted by author, thread, subject or date. Best regards, -- Rick Walker ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:04:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy Dear Tommy > i have encounter a problem that most cper and plant lovers know, a > missing of space in my room! Since a good part of my cp are Sarracenia, i > tought i could try to put all of them, or at least most of them, outside for > winter (i live in Quebec, between Montreal and Qc on the north shore). Since > few species like S.leuco. and S.flava come from southern location and > hybrids, i fear that the cold outside who kill those species, inlikely the > S.purpurea, who are already there... Well, you're on the right track here... However, S. luecophylla and S. flava are both hardy plants. You assumption about S. purpurea is also correct, *but* some people still believe that the "S. purpurea" from the Florida panhandle are _S. purpurea_. If you have these plants, they will not make through your winter outside. The two species that not so hardy are _S.psittacina_ and _S. rosea_. Most lump rosea in with purpurea. If you grow the plants in pots, then you'll really need a cold frame. Without one, you run the risk of drying out your plants in the dry winter air. This is a far more important point than worrying about the temps... An exposed pot with any hardy plant in it is more likely than not to die. If you follow your plan with the picnic table, I would also mulch them with something that has a consistentency similiar to wet wood chips in order to help maintain the pots at a decent moisture level. Check and water as needed (it's difficult to tell if the soil is frozen or dry) or shovel snow on top. Oh, if you still have your Sarracenia inside, it's most likely way too late to move them out... They would die just from the shock. It takes them about a month to adjust and get ready for dormancy. Dave Evans ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 00:24:20 -0500 Subject: Question about Sarracenia dormancy (with S. rosea) and other southern Sarracenia ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:15 PM > > Well, you're on the right track here... However, S. luecophylla and S. > flava are both hardy plants. You assumption about S. purpurea is also > correct, *but* some people still believe that the "S. purpurea" from the > Florida panhandle are _S. purpurea_. If you have these plants, they will > not make through your winter outside. The two species that not so hardy are > _S.psittacina_ and _S. rosea_. > Most lump rosea in with purpurea. I have a question. What are peoples experience with S. purpurea burkii in a more northern climate with dormancy? As a grower in Florida I do not understand that it is often lumped in with S. psittacina as a hard plant to put through dormancy in more northern locations. Yet the natural range of S. psittacina goes into extreme southeastern SC along the Savannah River, where I have seem them myself. Climatically this is in a more northern USDA zone than the range of S. leucophylla (which shares a deep southern region with S. purpurea burkii) or S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea). I am of the opinion that all of these species can take very cold conditions and are all equally hardy on the short term. I think it must be duration of cold period (months) that must weaken the plants and allow disease. The extremes in temperature fluctuation in habitat are severe. From below freezing to highs in the 70s sometimes in the same day or week. This year it is very cold, well below normal. But even in normal winters it is very cold out in the woods in the deep southern Pine Flatwoods during the nights. I just can not understand how one can pull S. leucophylla through dormancy in Penn, NJ or Mi and not pull S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea) through using the same methods. Take care, ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida USA > ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 15:52:42 +0930 Subject: Drosera Thanks to those who emailed me regarding the Drosera I saw at Litchfield Nat. Park. The description given by Fernando Rivadavia - "the ones I saw were also about 2cm in diameter and dark pink-red in color. The leaves were wedge-shaped, with very short petioles nearly indistiguishable from the lamina with the sticky tentacles." matches the plants I saw and therefore it would appear that they are the ubiquitous D. burmannii. I'm sure the flowers were pink but I can't remember if they were open. Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 01:58:44 EST Subject: Miguel Hi All, Sorry to post this here. Would Miguel who wanted the catalog please e-mail me with your address again? It went bye-bye. Thanks, Joe Griffin ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:01:09 +0000 Subject: Experience? Anyone out there ever put video on a web page? If so, respond to paultemple@bigfoot.com if willing to share knowledge. This is a CP related question! Cheers Pau ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:36:35 +0000 Subject: Erratum Hi all. How are you? My absence was caused by Netscape6 (avoid it until it's bugs ae fixed) so my numerous responses to all those Pinguicula moranensis discussions never arrived here on the listserver. Then again, you all missed my best wishes for the new cntury and millenium, now that it's finally arrived! But neither point is why I write. No, I write instead because I just received the new CP Newsletter, or more specifically because of an error in it. Now believe me when I say that in addition to being quite unable to upstage Adrian Slack, I also have no intention of trying (ever!). However, I was quite astounded to see myslef mentioned in amoungst the various articles designed to give tribute to Adrian. I'm a lucky man. I've managed to befriend so many of the well known names in the CP world. The famous, the technicians, the explorers, the hobbiests and the commercial suppliers. So I can count Paul Gardner, who bought Marston Exotics from Adrian, as a friend (though it's rare that we ever see each other). But I'm afraid my friend has become a victim of my ability (I don't know how I developed it) to promote myself. Therefore, I find myself accidentally elevated by Paul from having been a member of the British Carnivorous Plant society to it's co-founder - with Adrian!. Oh how I could wish that it were so. But it isn't and wasn't. From memory, I believe Adrian co-founded the CPS with John Watson (a now famous British horticulturalist). I'm not sure if John Sirkett was also a co-founder but he may have been, or joined almost immediately after the start. I joined about 1 year after the start. Although I was on the committee, this is hardly a claim to co-founding claim. It was an honest mistake by Paul, but I can't let it go. Meanwhile, well done Barry - its a totally different CPN that pays just homage to the man most of us "oldies" think of as the father of the modern CP hobby. Not because he was first (Adrian always owned up to gaining much of his expertise from others who started earlier) , not because he was "best", but simply because his book made the hobby accessible and possible to all. It was a great idea and fun to learn more not only of Adrian but of those who knew him. Cheers Paul ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:14:00 EST Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy (with S. rosea) and other southern Sa... In a message dated 1/2/2001 11:32:50 PM Central Standard Time, stovehouse@earthlink.net writes: << ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Evans" To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:15 PM Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy > > Well, you're on the right track here... However, S. luecophylla and S. > flava are both hardy plants. You assumption about S. purpurea is also > correct, *but* some people still believe that the "S. purpurea" from the > Florida panhandle are _S. purpurea_. If you have these plants, they will > not make through your winter outside. The two species that not so hardy are > _S.psittacina_ and _S. rosea_. > Most lump rosea in with purpurea. I have a question. What are peoples experience with S. purpurea burkii in a more northern climate with dormancy? As a grower in Florida I do not understand that it is often lumped in with S. psittacina as a hard plant to put through dormancy in more northern locations. Yet the natural range of S. psittacina goes into extreme southeastern SC along the Savannah River, where I have seem them myself. Climatically this is in a more northern USDA zone than the range of S. leucophylla (which shares a deep southern region with S. purpurea burkii) or S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea). I am of the opinion that all of these species can take very cold conditions and are all equally hardy on the short term. I think it must be duration of cold period (months) that must weaken the plants and allow disease. The extremes in temperature fluctuation in habitat are severe. From below freezing to highs in the 70s sometimes in the same day or week. This year it is very cold, well below normal. But even in normal winters it is very cold out in the woods in the deep southern Pine Flatwoods during the nights. I just can not understand how one can pull S. leucophylla through dormancy in Penn, NJ or Mi and not pull S. purpurea burkii (S. rosea) through using the same methods. Take care, ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida USA > I agree with Mike, I have never had a problem with S. pupurea burkeii, and in some of the past winters (like the current one) my outdoor bogs have been solid blocks of ice for a couple of months. I can not remember a single winter related loss of any Sarracenia in 25 years of growing them outdoors year round here in Memphis. That includes leucophylla, alata, psitticina, etc. The only problem ones likely to encounter with winter temperatures is extremely cold wind chill, so if the bog is protected from the wind there should be no problem. Our night temperatures here have been in the single digits farenheit for about a month, and all Sarracenias can handle temperatures like this with no problem. In fact, I dont believe we have been above freezing for 3 weeks. But these temperatures are much different than 30-60 below freezing that northern areas can experience with wind chill. The other problem would be a late snow cover after the plants have resumed growth. Although April snows have not adversely affected my plants here, cold wet snow in the spring have been known to cause vft's to rot. Of the Sarracenias, the only plant I have a slight problem with is alata flowers which can rot if they experience freezing temperatures after they break forth from the rhizome. I have remedied this by keeping flooding the bog in late January to keep the plants from flowering too early. Michael Catalani Memphis TN USA ################### From: Kit Halsted Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:33:17 -0500 Subject: Re:Experience? I can't design my way out of a paper bag, but the techie stuff is no problem... See for my experiment with video on the web, feel free to ask if you have any questions. -Kit At 4:20 AM -0800 1/3/01, Paul Temple wrote: >Anyone out there ever put video on a web page? >If so, respond to if willing to share knowledge. > >This is a CP related question! > >Cheers > >Pau -- Kit Halsted Network Administrator, Blue Dingo/GB ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:08:47 -0800 Subject: Bruce Bednar Hi everyone, Does anyone know if Bruce is still online? His website (Lee's Botanical) appears to be defunct. Thanks in advance. Chris ################### From: CALIFCARN@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:12:08 EST Subject: Re: The Newsletter Hey folks, Peter here at California Carnivores: I just wanted to congratulate Barry and the staff at the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter for their superb December issue on Adrian Slack. I found it quite enjoyable and it was great to see a photo of Adrian, who's looking great. A most enjoyable issue, and I know many people put a lot of effort into it. Happy New Year. ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:02:30 -0500 Subject: storing Drosera gemmae > I'd appreciate advice on whether or not it's possible to store Drosera > gemmae for 2 to 3 months until the blizzards here in North America have > ended (at least for Atlanta.) I have D. pulchella and nitidula that are > literally bursting with gemmae and would like to wait until March before > putting them in the outside bogs. > > Atlanta has had it's 3rd coldest December on record and it seems to freeze > every night now so January and February will probably be much the same. I > thought of storing them in damp paper towels and putting them in the > refrigerator just above freezing. Anyone have any experience with this? > > Thanks for your help, > David > Atlanta > > P.S. Someone mentioned earlier that they had trouble getting their pygmy > Drosera to produce gemmae. I grow mine under lights in the basement so > they are at a fairly constant temperature now, probably somewhere around > 65 to 70 F, warming slightly while the lights are on. I think the trick > was to reduce the photo period to probably somewhere around 8 hours a day. > Within about 4 weeks they have produced gemmae. ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:08:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy (with S. rosea) and other southern Sa... Dear Mike and Michael, Both S.psittacina and S. rosea don't seem to be very flower-bud hardy when grown outside in bogs, in New Jersey. Yes, all Sarracenia are hardy plants. This is a point I have been telling people for years... These two, they do not seem as hardy as the rest of Sarracenia. Even when the flowers do form, they tend to be deformed and most never set seed. These are symptoms of not being flower-bud hardy in the New Jersey climate zone. Plants that show these qualilties can be expected to do worst (fewer flowers, more leaf damage and more deaths) in colder climate zones. Cold frames were invented specifically for the winter storage of such plants, among other uses, like keeping woody buds dormant into the growning season so they can be grafted onto activity growing stock. Dave Evans ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:30:52 +0000 Subject: Re: Question about Sarracenia dormancy Tom, > i have encounter a problem that most cper and plant lovers > know, a >missing of space in my room! Since a good part of my cp are >Sarracenia, i tought i could try to put all of them, or at least most >of them, outside for winter (i live in Quebec, between Montreal and Qc >on the north shore). Since few species like S.leuco. and S.flava come >from southern location and hybrids, i fear that the cold outside who >kill those species, inlikely the S.purpurea, who are already there... >I am thinking of building a kind of cold frame from next winter, but i >just tought an easy way to do such thing: do placing all my plants >under a picnic table, cover with a thick plastic like the one they make >car shelter, would be enough to protect them? I have some space in the >garage too, which protect plants from wind, and a little from cold, but >the temp do go under 0degC there too... Any idea on how to keep these >plants outside safely would be appreciated. Thanks a lot and happy new >year all! > Unless you can find someone else with experience growing these plants outside in your growing area I suspect you are just going to have to experiment with plants that you are prepared to lose if necessary. Sometimes its the only way. I suspect however, that your arrangement will suit fine. With some hardy plants it is not so much the freezing that kills them but desiccation. With the soil around the roots frozen the plants are not able to replace moisture stripped from the leaves by cold winds. Your proposed shelter sounds as if it will eliminate this problem. One other thing to bear in mind. Watch out for problems once the thaw sets in. As the soil thaws it allows pockets of moisture to build up in the crowns of the rhizome. This encourages botrytis mould, which can multiply very quickly and kill your plant. With a little introduce aeration you should be able to minimise this but I would not recommend you grow S. psittacina outside as this is by far the most susceptible species. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:38:02 +0000 Subject: UKCPS Newsletter Hi, This is a message for UKCPS members only. The last newsletter of the year has been delayed but is at the printers at the moment. UK members should recieve it by the end of this month - overseas members will be about five days later. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:30:34 +0000 Subject: Re: storing Drosera gemmae David, > >> I'd appreciate advice on whether or not it's possible to store Drosera >> gemmae for 2 to 3 months until the blizzards here in North America have >> ended (at least for Atlanta.) I have D. pulchella and nitidula that are >> literally bursting with gemmae and would like to wait until March before >> putting them in the outside bogs. >> >From memory it all depends on the species. Some species produce small and quite flat gemmae, like fish scales. These can be kept dormant by storing them in wet paper towels in bags in the fridge. The other species that produce larger and "fatter" gemmae do not store in the fridge. They will try to grow whatever temperature they are stored at. >From memory both D. pulchella and D. nitidula both produce fish scale like gemmae and should store well in the fridge. I once tried keeping some D. pulchella gemmae in the fridge for six months with reasonable success. The longer you keep them the less survive. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:43:51 +0100 Subject: Missed Hi folks, sorry, but somehow I have missed the cp digest 2419. Could someone please forward it to me? Thanks! Marcus Ah... and: Happy New Year! ################### From: "Tommy Landry" Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 23:32:10 Subject: Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating) Hi list, i have a problem with my pots of pygmies sundews: all the plants are overwhelmed by little mosses... Is there any tips to avoid these to grow from the peat moss? Thanks Tom ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:48:53 +0100 Subject: French conservationists wanted! I would be interested to contact somebody in France involved in the conservation projects of the Dionee association (or other cons. projects), especially about Aldrovanda. Thanks and good growing! Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy (responsible of the Conservation Project of the Italian CP Society) ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:29:07 +0100 Subject: Re: storing Drosera gemmae > From memory both D. pulchella and D. nitidula both produce fish scale > like gemmae and should store well in the fridge. I once tried keeping > some D. pulchella gemmae in the fridge for six months with reasonable > success. The longer you keep them the less survive. I made the same experience with D. pulchella and D. x 'Lake Badgerup'. Don't forget to use some fungicide on the wet paper you put the gemmae in. Take care, Marcus ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:08:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sarracenia dormancy To the individual who lives in Quebec, here is an idea that may work for you. In my experience with Sarracenia and cold winters I have grown them in many climatic extremes. I live in central California but used to live in Rochester, NY where winers are similar to that of Quebec. If you have land space available in your back yard you can dig a trench deep enough to place the pots into and cover them with a thick mulching of leaves, pine needles, dry peat moss etc. I would first dust the rhizomes with powdered sulfer or spray with a very good fungicide. Under these conditions I had noticed that even my flytraps stayed somewhat green even under the deepest layers of snow. Most of the southern species of sarracenia are somewhat hardy, but they will be much happier if their entire root system does not freeze solid. Although they may surpirse you. This may not be the best solution according to some people, but it is a safe one. Mulching saved many of my plants in the past. Good luck. Phil ################### From: "Weaver, Kevin" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:43:35 -0800 Subject: Pictures Hello, Guess what Kevin got for Christmas? A scanner! Yayy! So, if anyone's interested in seeing pictures from my small collection of CP's I grow outdoors (and a few indoors) in San Francisco, please email me and I'll send them to you. I also have 3 pictures of the Nepenthes inside of the Conservatory of Flowers, which still won't be open for another 3 years. Kevin ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 13:10:20 EST Subject: Re: Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating) Tom, Nuking the peat in a microwave for about nine minutes seems to cut down on a lot of the unwanted flora an fauna. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:49:49 +0000 Subject: Dumb Question No. 1 OK. Comes a time when everyone has to prove themselves dumb. So to anyone not already convinced of my idiocy, here's a really dump question that was prompted by Tommy's "Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating)". Tommy isn't alone, most of us get plagued by moss overtaking a pot. So why do plants in wild habitats not get similarly overcome by rampant moss growth? I can't believe it's own to moss eating animals as they surely would eat the precious plants first. My experience of wandering in habitats is that moss is not a problem, it does not seem to present a risk and plants can mature without being overcome. Any views? Cheers Paul ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 12:18:57 +0000 Subject: Numbers (- Time I started another argument!) This listserver has been very polite for a while! (I wonder if my absence had anything to do with it?). So, at great risk (we will see if the risk is realised), I pose the question: Are CP'ers the laziest plant enthusiasts in the world of horticulture? Let me cite 3 other groups who rank up there in the clouds with CP'ers, as fanatical collectors with significant membership of world wide and international societies. The examples would be for Cacti, Orchids and Alpine Plants. In all three cases, look at the plant lists circulated by these societies, both by members and by the societies themselves, either for plants or seeds. Then look too at the commercial outlets and the plant or seed lists they produce. Now compare these with the same for CP's. See a difference. No? You're not looking closely enough. Try again. Got it now? Tried glasses? Ah! Now you have it. All three not only show a plant name, but whenever possible they show a Collection Number assigned to the plant when the plant or its parent was first collected in the wild. When did you see such a thing in the CP world? This is not a vacuous point just to raise an argument. Some of us like to hope we are contribuing in some small way to conservation. Should a plant die out in the wild, we can hope to replace it (no, no no, please don't restart that argument), even if wee do have to ensure we use enough material to guarantee genetic variation. But how could we hope to do that if we don't know a plant's origins? I'm willing to bet that not one of the professionals amoungst us (paid botanists of any persuasion: taxonomists, conservationists, etc.) will argue against the need for Collection Numbers to be assigned to wild collected plants (I'm not going to get distracted here by discussion of the legality of plant collecting in the wild). So, I seriously hope this does not attract trivial or cynical responses. But I also hope to provoke a serious discussion from all those who seriously care about the identity of their plants. So I am truly asking the question: are CP people really as lazy (with regard to assigning Collection Numbers) as seems true from reading published lists and, if not, where have all those Collection Numbers gone? Regards Paul ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:14:35 EST Subject: Re: Dumb Question No. 1 Paul, Not a dumb question at all. I can only speculate on the possibilities... First, pygmies in the wild seem to grow in much harsher conditions than we grow them. How many pictures in Lowrie's books have you seen them and tuberous and even D. binata growing in pure to almost-pure sand? Second, are you using Australian peat? Mine is usually Canadian, so even though peat does come from live sphagnum, it doesn'nt mean that the same mosses and small animals have to be found in peat from halfway around the world. I was thinking that the import/export regulations are strict partially due to soil, and not just plants. The moss that springs up in Canadian peat is not subjected to the harsh climates that these plants are, so the spores are well established in the peat we use, coming from a damper year-round area. Okay, those are some of my ideas. What does everyone else have? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:25:23 -0500 Subject: collection numbers > are CP people really as lazy (with regard to assigning >Collection Numbers) as seems true from reading published lists and, if >not, where have all those Collection Numbers gone? I don't have collection numbers, but am rabid about keeping collection data on the seed I collect. I always pass that information along whenever I distrbute seed and usually indicate when the seed are wild collected or taken from plants in my collection. Does that count!!!!! David Atlanta ################### From: MCliff428@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 17:03:28 EST Subject: Re: Dumb Question No. 1 On trips to Canada, I have seen Sarracenia purpurea that were literally buried in Sphagnum. Only the opening and lip of the pitcher were showing. I suppose that these plants reseed themselves so often that they can afford to become buried in Sphagnum and still carry on a healthy population. ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 15:57:56 +1100 Subject: Utric seed Hi All I have a very limited number of Australian Utric seeds available for trade if anyone is interested. I am searching for U. inaequalis (volubilis), 'Tomoku' (alpina x endressi), U. amethystina, U. macrorhiza, U. infalata, U. quelchii, U. humboldtii, U. campbelliana, U. jamesoniana, U. asplundii or anything interesting or epiphitic. I have FRESH collected seed of U. uniflora, U. lateriflora (typical and white flower) U. uliginosa, U. minutissima, U. dichotoma, and U styermorkii. I also have fresh Stylidium graminifolium seed (The largest form with probably the most beautiful flowers). Thanks Greg ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:56:14 +0100 Subject: Re: Dumb Question No. 1 >Tommy isn't alone, most of us get plagued by moss overtaking a pot. So >why do plants in wild habitats not get similarly overcome by rampant >moss growth? I can't believe it's own to moss eating animals as they >surely would eat the precious plants first. My experience of wandering >in habitats is that moss is not a problem, it does not seem to present a >risk and plants can mature without being overcome. > >Any views? We usually grow our plants in very protected conditions (greenhouses and similar) and there mosses can grow very well. On the other hand, the conditions in the wild are very difficult and dramatic: plants have to resist to horrible weather conditions among which heavy rains with soil movement and erosion. And there the small mosses can't grow very well and must fight hard to survive. Did you ever try growing pigmies on very sandy soil kept outdoors under the rain? I can ensure no much moss will grow there! Also in the wild, however, there are places where mosses grow well; in most of these places CPs don't grow. One of the exceptions is Sphagnum moss, on which a number of species lives well. But it is not an easy life: plants have to climb very fast there not to be overgrown by the moss and they form a slender stem instead of the typical rosette of leaves which they form on pure peat. Good growing! Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:56:18 +0100 Subject: Re: Numbers (- Time I started another argument!) >Ah! Now you have it. All three not only show a plant name, but >whenever possible they show a Collection Number assigned to the plant >when the plant or its parent was first collected in the wild. When did >you see such a thing in the CP world? A number of growers consider this very useful and important and keep the data about provenance of plants. The problem is that many others are not interested about this and don't care about the data (in fact this effort is time consuming when you grow many species); and so many information is lost when the plants are spread among the collectors. It would be very useful to define a standard method to indicate these data so to make it quick and easy. I'm sure many growers would cooperate when told about the importance of this practice. Happy growing to everybody! Filippo Tassara Genoa, Italy ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:32:32 -0500 Subject: Sarracenia dormancy Hello all, Digging a pit to put dormant Sarracenia in sounds like a very good idea. I have done this, when I lived in Colorado, to create long stemmed Tulips, using sand instead of leaves or pine needles. One major consideration is, this should probably be done before perma-frost sets in. I would think it might be a major undertaking this time of year, in Quebec. Just a thought. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, (perma-frost free) Florida USA ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:13:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Avoiding mosses growth (pygmea sundews suffocating) Tom, > i have a problem with my pots of pygmies sundews: all the plants are >overwhelmed by little mosses... Is there any tips to avoid these to grow >from the peat moss? Thanks > I think if you substitute the top 5mm or so of soil with some medium sized lime free grit this helps with the moss problems though they will inevitably grow through in a few years still. I have used granite grit in the past when I can get it as the grey colour contrasts well with the plants and it is guaranteed to be lime free. The only problem with this is when starting new plants from gemmae since there is not much in the grit to retain moisture. Once established the plant's roots will have penetrated to the peat below the grit. With care though the gemmae will establish okay. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thorbj=F8rn_Str=F8m-Hansen?= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:52:47 +0100 Subject: Greenhouses: Poly-carbonate versus ordinary glass I have been a "small-scale" CP grower for some years, with a collection of Sarracenias and the ordinary Droseras, Pinguiculas and Utricularias. In order to expand the collection, I have decided to build a regular greenhouse (approx. 10 m2) in a sunny corner of my garden. However, at the local greenhouse supplier I was confronted with the question: should it be with ordinary glass or with poly-carbonate (double layer plates)? My first decision was to take poly-carbonate as it provides better insulation than ordinary glass. Since I am living in Denmark, which occasionally gets quite cold during winter time, this aspect is certainly worth taking into account. On the other hand, the poly-carbonate is not fully transparent and I am concerned about reducing the light intensity. So, I would be very interested to learn from experience that you may have with poly-carbonate in greenhouses for growing CP. Thanks, Thorbj\370rn Bagsv(1/2)rd Denmark ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:26:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Polycarbonate vs glass If you use polycarbonate panels you will still get more than enough light transmission for excellent growth of almost any plant, even cacti. Unless you experience low amounts of full clear sunshine I would go the extra mile for the polycarb panels. They also insulate way better than orginary glass, are resistant to hail or falling obstacles like pine cones and even baseballs :) and will cut down some on harmful UV. Twin wall polycarbonate does cost quite a lot, but it is an excellent glazing material. Most high quality commercial horticulturists I ave ever known or visited use this material either on the roof alone with something else on the side walls, or they use it entirely. They must know better than we do I would think. Again, it is personal preference. Glass will work just fine but poly has more to offer for permanance, damage resistance, insulation and UV protection. One more thing....poly helps break up and distrbute the sunlight rather than allowing it to beat down on the plants in full force. This would allow for less use of shade cloth. Have fun with your new greenhouse whatever your decision. Once you have it you'll wonder how you got by for so long without one. Phil ################### From: "mike wilder" Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 20:26:10 -0000 Subject: d. montana var. tomentosa flowering size hello, recently someone asked about typical flowering size for d. montana var. tomentosa. i have little experience with this plant but thought i'd write since no one else did. my plant was grown from seed sown last spring, and it is just now flowering at about 3cm. i also grow var. schwackii (spelling.?), but it has so far refused to grow any larger than 1.4 cm. --mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:55:59 EST Subject: Re: New Zealand Sphagnum Moss Source Hi All, A source was given to me for NZ sphagnum, Ann Mann's Orchids if Florida. Well just to pass this on, they no longer sell moss and deal esclusively with orchids and foggers for greenhouses. Regards, Joe Griffn Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 23:12:13 -0500 Subject: Sundews for Sale (Cheap) Hey there, CP buddies... I've got to get rid of the following plants. Most are leftovers from the last plant sale. This time, ALL PLANTS MUST BE SOLD! -US Only. -$20 minimum order. PLEASE INCLUDE YOUR ADDRESS WITH YOUR ORDER. -Add $5.00 additional for packaging and shipping. All packages sent Priority Mail. -Plants will be shipped bare-rooted, in plastic. Size is indicated in description. -Payment should be made following receipt of plants. -No returns or refunds, sorry :( I reserve the right to make substitutes if necessary. Please list subs and I will try my best to accommodate you. DROSERA - Sundews (quantity available in parentheses) admirabilis, nice S African rosette w.wedge shaped leaves 1" wide (3) $5ea binata T form (dormant) (2+) $3ea capillaris SE USA, 1" wide (10) flowering size, 2 for $5 capensis alba, green form, to 1" wide (9) 2 for $5 capensis giant (5) 2"+ $4ea capensis red, to 1" wide (8+) 2 for $5 hamiltonii, West Australian <1" wide, (2+) $3ea intermedia x capillaris, natural hybrid, 1" wide (6+) flowering size $4ea madagascariensis Rhodesia (4") (1) $5ea nidiformis, recent S African discovery, 1" (4) $3ea peltata, tuberous, fuzzy white sepals, 1/2" wide from seed (many) 5 for $5 "x Nightmare"" = rotundifolia x intermedia, discovered by Jim Bockowski in the NJ Pine Barrens, can grow to ~6" wide! <1" wide (15+) 2 for $5 spatulata 'pink' (Kawanam Mire, Kyushu, Japan) (12) flowering size 2 for $5 spatulata (Queenstown, Tazmania) (9) flowering size 2 for $5 x watari 1/2" easy and vigorous spatulata x anglica (12+), 2 for $5 x "snydermoto" to 1/2" (24+), 3 for $5 Happy Growing! SundewMatt http://www.geocities.com/sundewmatt ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:51:50 -0500 Subject: RE: d. montana var. tomentosa flowering size >recently someone asked about typical flowering size for d. montana var. tomentosa. My v. tomentosa have flowered on what I consider very small plants, probably just a little larger than the flowering size of brevifolia. I haven't measured flowering tomentosa but am guessing that they were less than 1/2 inch (about 2.2 cm). David Atlanta ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:16:28 -0600 Subject: Re: Greenhouses: Poly-carbonate versus ordinary glass I have worked with double-layered poly houses for years in retail and wholesale horticulture, as well as at home, with my own little poly house. Though the light transmission may be reduced somewhat compared to glass, it really seems quite adequate for all the uses I've seen it in (growing annuals, perennials, etc.). The only greenhouse covering I've seen that is really poor for light transmission is old fiberglass, which degrades substantially with age. The poly is replaced every three to four years. Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:19:47 -0600 Subject: Re: Polycarbonate Ooops... I was talking about polyethylene film, actually, not rigid polycarbonate panels... that will teach me to read and respond too quickly! I DON'T have much experience with these rigid panels (too expensive for my budget). Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: Tim Metcalf Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:41:38 -0800 Subject: Greenhouses: Poly-carbonate versus glass Dear Thorbj, Here in the central valley of California we don't have hail but have intense sunlight eight months of the year so have had the double wall polycarbonate age and yellow in five years. Also, at low sun angles (Winter) the light transmission ability of the double wall drops off because light has to travel through the supporting bars in the panels. The single wall is more resistant to aging but it does not have as much insulating capacity. Many commercial people around here building permanent greenhouses use large span tempered glass. I would recommend speaking with other commercial and collection people in your area to see what works best under your conditions. During the summer we whitewash the glass or have automatic shade curtains to reduce and diffuse the light. The polycarbonate houses need little or no whitewash/ shading because the light is diffused which makes the lighting omnidirectional, reaching the plant from every side resulting in better more even form. Tim Tim Metcalf Plant Biology One Shields Avenue Davis, CA 95616-8537 (530) 752-0569 FAX 5410 http://greenhouse.ucdavis.edu ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:06:45 +0100 Subject: re:Small D. montana tomentosa flowering > hello, > recently someone asked about typical flowering size for d. montana var. > tomentosa. i have little experience with this plant but thought i'd write > since no one else did. my plant was grown from seed sown last spring, and it > is just now flowering at about 3cm. i also grow var. schwackii > (spelling.?), but it has so far refused to grow any larger than 1.4 cm. > --mike > Hi Mike, That was me, thanks for the reply. Actually I did get a response privately and I got the answers I wanted, the small size was not a problem and this species was self fertile although "hand pollination" resulted in more seed. I also have D. montana var. schwackei and have problems with this species too. Grew OK in the beginning, then stalled and produced smaller leaves (dormancy?). One is approx. the same size as yours, but the rest are smaller. In my case the problem might be because of high temperature. Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: Philcula@webtv.net (Phil Faulisi) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:07:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: NZ sphagnum source For anyone interested, you can find New Zealand sphagnum moss at the following web site for Cal West Tropical Supplies in Riverside, California. www.calwesttropical.com They sell only AAA quality product. I met them at the Santa Barbara Orchid Fair last year and was glad I did. I haven't been able to find it any where else. Enjoy! Phil ################### From: JWi5770869@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:22:13 EST Subject: pets eat prizes In a message dated 02/01/01 08:39:58 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > Moral of the story, if you protect your plants at all cost! Even from Pets > that you think will never be interested in them. > Yes I had exactly this problem but with a Drosophyllum, which was donated by Steve Gordon in Liverpool (Hi Steve!!!!!). My prize plant, until the moggy had finished with it. Suffice to say I now keep my plants in the greenhouses (including my only grown from seed Drosophyllum). John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: JWi5770869@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:42:44 EST Subject: polycarbonate on greenhouses In a message dated 07/01/01 09:02:05 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > So, I would be very interested to learn from experience that you may have > with poly-carbonate in greenhouses for growing CP. > > Thanks, > Thorbj\370rn > > Bagsv(1/2)rd > Denmark Thorbjrn (?) On completing my second greenhouse, I have used the double skinned polycarb on the north facing side. The reason being that its primarily a safety feature (with an active young son, it needs to be) and I couldn't afford safety glass. The main problem with the polycarb (6mm thickness) is that it flexes to much and can sometimes fly out of the frame in high winds! If I was going to construct another greenhouse I would not use this polycarb again. Hope this helps John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: "Andy Falshaw" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:53:51 +1300 Subject: sites in/near perth, cape town I'm off to a conference in Cape Town later this month (anyone else off to the international seaweed symposium?) via a day or two in Perth each way. Can anyone recommend places to see cps in/near these places? Is there anywhere to see byblis near perth? After the conference I'm off on a tour through "the Langeberg mountains, Garden Route ... Knysna lagoon... Nature's Valley .... Tsitsikamma Coastal National Park, Addo Elephant National Park, Oudtshoorn, Cango Caves little karoo" If anyone has any suggestions what to look out for (cps, birds, bugs, anything) in any of these places I'd be grateful. thanks Andy wellington, nz ################### From: psher001@odu.edu Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:58:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Cephalotus and C. Brewer Hi Folks: Looking for Charlie Brewer. Charlie, my friend Ed Munn is interested in some Cephalotus from you. Can you please call him (collect if needed) at (703) 465-8589. Please let him know availability and price. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Meadowview ################### From: "Terry Beale" Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:38:21 -0500 Subject: Can you help me? Hi my name is Holly Beale. I am 8 years old. I am doing a project for my school's social science fair, called Carnivorous Plants: Man's Friend or Enemy? I have written a lot of the report and now I need to do the backdrop which will have pictures and maybe I can have some sort of model or something fun for people to look at. I found a great website and the man said that sometimes he had extra plants to give away but when I wrote to him he said that he had just given away his extra ones but he thought that maybe somebody at this email list might be able to help me if they have a plant they don't need anymore that they could send me for my project. My mom can pay you back for the postage cost. The only thing is that the social science fair is the week after next so I would have to get it quick. If you can send it to me, my address is: 2970 Marlin Circle, Atlanta, GA 30341. You can write me back at my mom's email address which is terrybeale@mindspring.com. Thank you! Holly [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Stig Henning Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:21:05 +0100 Subject: Unsubscribe...me. (I can to it automaticly) Hi, I have been logged on with 2 email adresses. Please remove "sthune@c2i.net" from your reciever list. Thanx, btw; There is a contest going on in Norway, in which the winner will be able to give out a CD. Please visit: http://urort.nrk.no/cgi-bin/urort/band.cgi?2114 Click "lytt" (to listen to the music), then click "stem" Thanx, Regards, Stig Henning ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:03:48 -0500 Subject: U. pusilla? Dear List, I hope someone can help... When I was in California for the CP con, I received a bit of Utricularia. I unfortunately I don't recall who I received this from, but they said it was a flowering form of _U. subulata_. Well, I have U. subulata from many growers, thought I never really wanted it, since all it ever seems to do is produce cleistogamous flowers (which I find quite lame). Even the leaves are unappealing to me. I basically try to avoid spreading this weed into other pots, I hope it's now isolated outside in my bogs where it grows in the peatmoss and Sphagnum. I don't have any inside. Well, the idea of seeing U. subulata with real flowers was appealing. However, once I took a closer look, I wasn't so sure it was U. subulata, it just looked a bit more attractive, though nothing I could point out at the time. When I mentioned my doubt, the grower was adamant it was U. subulata. Not knowing much about Utricularia I didn't give it anymore thought. I just thought, "Hey, if it can actually flower, maybe the whole plant will look a bit different, being of another strain." Now, that the plant has grown and flowered I am even less sure. I recently purchased Peter Taylor's _Utricularia_, he mentions that U. subulata has subacute end to the leaves, this plant has rounded ends. Also, traps on subulata are numerous and can appear on the bottoms of the leaves, not so on this plant. The traps are sparsely found on the stems, I didn't see any on any leaves. Also, the leaves are not linear, but they widen a bit near the end. The flower does not match either of the figures for U. subulata or _U. pusilla_ in Taylor's monograph. It is close to both, but closer to the figure for U. pusilla. The spur is about twice as long as the bottom lip. In the figure for U. subulata, we are shown a side view of the flower, but not so for U. pusilla. The spur on my plant comes down and then juts forward, totally unlike what is shown in the figure for U. subulata. I almost certain it's not U. subulata now, but could it still be something other than U. pusilla? What can I look for to use for ID that doesn't involve using a microscope? Or must I locate a microscope to look for lots of hairs on the "oral appendages"? I didn't understand the part about sterile bracts... What is a bract and the 'raceme axis'? Thank-you, Dave Evans [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Brewer Charles E PHDN Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:21:18 -0500 Subject: RE: Cephalotus and C. Brewer This is for Phil Sheridan, Got your message. My email address is as follows: brewerce@nswcphdn.navy.mil I will call Ed tonight Cheers Charles > Hi Folks: > Looking for Charlie Brewer. Charlie, my friend Ed Munn is interested in > some Cephalotus from you. Can you please call him (collect if needed) at > (703) 465-8589. Please let him know availability and price. > > Sincerely, > > Phil Sheridan > Meadowview ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:32:57 -0500 Subject: RE: Can you help me? Hi Holly, You and your parents can visit me and I'll set you up with a variety of carnvirous plants at no charge. You can keep them afterwards or return them. I'm available this Saturday afternoon if you would like to come by. I live in Doraville near the intersection of 85 and 285. Here's my phone number: 770-270-5758. David ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:48:39 +0000 Subject: Re: U. pusilla? Dave, ..snip > it still be something other than U. pusilla? What can I look > for to use for ID that doesn't involve using a microscope? Or > must I locate a microscope to look for lots of hairs on the > "oral appendages"? I didn't understand the part about sterile > bracts... What is a bract and the 'raceme axis'? > I don't have my copy of Taylor to hand but one of the most useful means of identifying Utricularia species is from their seeds. If your plant is setting seed I suggest you try this. Of course if it appears to be self sterile this would be evidence enough that you don't have U. subulata! You don't need a microscope to see the detail on the seeds. Get a powerful hand lens or even better a jeweller's loupe. These are usually 10x or more and are excellent for viewing tiny detail as you have both hands free while using it. Here in the UK, you can get jeweller's loupes quite cheaply from good photographic stores - they are used to view slides and negatives. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:27:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Taylor terminology Hey Dave, >for to use for ID that doesn't involve using a microscope? Or >must I locate a microscope to look for lots of hairs on the >"oral appendages"? I didn't understand the part about sterile >bracts... What is a bract and the 'raceme axis'? I wrote an article for CPN some time ago (1974) in which I discuss the details of scales, bracts, bracteoles, etc. This article is on the web at: http://www.sarracenia.com/pubs/focus4.html Basically, the main flowering stalk of a Utricularia plant is the raceme axis. Pedicels are the little stems that branch off the raceme axis and hold each flower. Bracts are the little tiny nibs at the base of the pedicel, where it joins with the raceme axis. Now, some bracts on the raceme axis are not at the base of a pedicel. It just looks like a little nib on the axis. This kind of bract, with no flower, is considered "sterile" (i.e. it is not associated with a flower). The difference between scales and bracts is subtle. Every bract above the bottom flower on the raceme axis is a bract, sterile or fertile. Every bract-like structure BELOW the lowermost flower is considered a scale. Barry ################### From: Phungi23@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:17:34 EST Subject: Leon's got yet another email adress! Hello everybody, throw out yer old email adress for me! I've moved my account again! Ya know, I'm going to toss out the Yahoo address as well, I never seem to remember the check it more than, well, never! Hope all is well, Ciao! Leon Phaby. Phungi23@aol.com ################### From: "Doug Barrett and Laura Ratti" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:58:42 -0800 Subject: pest problems I have a few minor pest problems on my CP's that I need some help solving. I have scale on a few of my Heliamphora. I also have some sap drops on some of my nepenthes. I don't know what is causing this but assume it is an insect. I also noticed some "pimples" on the leaves if my N. veitchii. There appears to be an egg on the underside of the leaf. I don't know if this is related to the leaking sap problem. I would prefer less toxic solutions but at the same time want to eliminate these unwanted critters. Thanks for the help. Doug Barrett dougnlaura@earthlink.net ################### From: john green Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:19:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Drooling Sarracenia The other day I was looking at my S. leuco 'Tarnok' and noticed an unusually large amount of sticky secretions, both at the top opening and around the lower 2 or 3 inches of the pitchers. I've seen this before with my other Sarrs, but usually it's most heavy around the opening with little on the rest of the pitcher (with the possible exception of the edge of the ala or wing). I looked all over the plant and could see no signs of scale or any other insect pests. There are a few other Sarrs nearby (different species) but none of them are exhibiting this excess. The stuff is practically running in drops down the pitchers! Is this normal for this species or do I just need to look a lot closer for pests? I've never had much of a problem with pests. I only aquired this plant a few months ago from ABG, but I'd think they could be trusted to be "clean." Could it be possible that the conditions I have it in are causing this? It is dormant in a cool spot, growing under lights with about a 10 hour photoperiod, and probably low humidity due to forced air heating inside the house. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah john.green@ascensus.com http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:34:20 -0200 Subject: RE: collection numbers To all, Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't bother looking it up. Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here and there or appear completely siteless after a while. Furthermore (and I've seen this happen several times), what germinates is sometimes not what was supposed to have germinated (some contaminant seed from a nearby pot or mixed with the original seeds) but is assumed by the less experient grower to be that species and is soon being traded around by the wrong name. Remember D.montana? I'm sure there are lots of people still growing spatulata thinking it's montana. Not to mention all those rosetted African species, most of which always turn out to be aliciae after a few months. I'm sure we can all think of such examples for Drosera, Neps, Pings or Utrics. So on the one hand I think that collection numbers would be quickly forgotten or mixed up. But then again, numbers are easier to remember than Grao Mogol, Kununurra, or Baine's Kloof (just to give 3 examples)... Best Wishes to all, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Wubs" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:06:50 -0500 Subject: Drosera filiformis I'm hoping that David Evans is reading this! David, could you please reply to me via email so that I can: a) Add you back into my data base which was accidentally erased! b) Thank you for the seed. c) Ask you something that may or may not be relevant to do so here. -jk [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:58:26 EST Subject: Pumice Hi All, Does anyone know a good source for horticultural pumice in the Midwest? I can't find it anywhere in town. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:17:46 +0000 Subject: Re: collection numbers Fernando et al... > Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection >numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. >How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the >label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of >taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't >bother looking it up. Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, >I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here and there or How true is this!! I guess us poor English speakers have a certain excuse because we aren't used to all those accented characters that appear in the Latin name places but I have even seen my Sarracenia location misspelled... When the error is pointed out I get treated as some sort of eccentric. :-) >appear completely siteless after a while. Furthermore (and I've seen this >happen several times), what germinates is sometimes not what was supposed to >have germinated (some contaminant seed from a nearby pot or mixed with the >original seeds) but is assumed by the less experient grower to be that >species and is soon being traded around by the wrong name. Remember >D.montana? I'm sure there are lots of people still growing spatulata >thinking it's montana. Not to mention all those rosetted African species, Growing it and selling or trading it! It actually amazes me that growers seem so naive in this respect. They always assume that whatever it says on the label or seed packet is correct. Personally I tend to assume the opposite these days. Until I can positively ID the plant it has a question mark by it and will not be traded. This applies to both Utricularia and Drosera. >most of which always turn out to be aliciae after a few months. I'm sure we >can all think of such examples for Drosera, Neps, Pings or Utrics. So on the >one hand I think that collection numbers would be quickly forgotten or mixed >up. But then again, numbers are easier to remember than Grao Mogol, >Kununurra, or Baine's Kloof (just to give 3 examples)... > Oh yes.... The one that immediately springs to mind is the P. ehlersae that was propagated in huge quantities and sold by several commercial nurseries as P. cyclosecta for years. It took ages to get everyone to recognise the real plant and even longer to get certain CP nurseries to change their catalogue ..... Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:34:50 -0500 Subject: Nepenthes Pests Hello Doug and all, I have noticed several species of Nepenthes tend to be prone to attack by Thrips. If the underside of the leaves have brown areas, and the sap is red or dark in color, look with a hand lens or magnifying glass for very small "," size insects. Very few of these insects, over time, can do quite a lot of damage, and are hard to see, their damage sometimes being mistaken for fungus problems. Their life-cycle takes them underground, so a systemic insecticide, like "Orthene" should be used, following the labels instructions for Thrips. As for Heliamphora, Scale insects can do a lot of harm, even in very low numbers. I have never applied insecticide to mine, but hand removal of visible individuals ASAP is recomended. I'm sure others have had experience with spraying this genera more than I have. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, Fl. USA I have a few minor pest problems on my CP's that I need some help solving. > I have scale on a few of my Heliamphora. I also have some sap drops on some > of my nepenthes. I don't know what is causing this but assume it is an > insect. I also noticed some "pimples" on the leaves if my N. veitchii. > There appears to be an egg on the underside of the leaf. I don't know if > this is related to the leaking sap problem. I would prefer less toxic > solutions but at the same time want to eliminate these unwanted critters. > Thanks for the help. > Doug Barrett ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:10:29 -0500 Subject: Collection numbers Hello, Steven Stewart again. I agree with Fernando, (not that I'm an authority, or it matters), but I also wonder if giving the botanist credit after a species name might help insure correct identification of material. This information seems pointless to many, but I have put out a great deal of money in the distant past, for misidentified plant species. If an individual has looked up a plant name in a reputable source, (such as the great work done in the ICPS database) this information should be easy to add, and would help end much confusion over which plant is which. I would think this information would be more easy to add than collection numbers, since in the hobby, as well as the science, it could be consistently applied. Then, if an individual is looking for a specific collection type, this information could be added. As Fernando has pointed out most CPer's don't care, until money has been spent for something other than was intended. IMHO Take care, Steven Stewart To all, > > > Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection > numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. > How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the > label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of > taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't > bother looking it up. Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, > I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here and there or > appear completely siteless after a while. Furthermore (and I've seen this > happen several times), what germinates is sometimes not what was supposed to > have germinated (some contaminant seed from a nearby pot or mixed with the > original seeds) but is assumed by the less experient grower to be that > species and is soon being traded around by the wrong name. Remember > D.montana? I'm sure there are lots of people still growing spatulata > thinking it's montana. Not to mention all those rosetted African species, > most of which always turn out to be aliciae after a few months. I'm sure we > can all think of such examples for Drosera, Neps, Pings or Utrics. So on the > one hand I think that collection numbers would be quickly forgotten or mixed > up. But then again, numbers are easier to remember than Grao Mogol, > Kununurra, or Baine's Kloof (just to give 3 examples)... > > > Best Wishes to all, > > Fernando Rivadavia > Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:36:26 -0500 Subject: RE: Collection numbers Maybe the ICPS journal could help us out by writing periodic articles about id'ing species correctly. Since it takes a taxonomist to understand a taxonomist it would be helpful if the articles were written for a lay understanding with lots of drawings and pictures. David Atlanta ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 20:08:14 -0500 Subject: Re: collection numbers > Just wanted to ad my 2 cents worth here. I think collection > numbers is a great idea, BUT.... the truth is that most CPers don't care. Dear Fernando and List, I don't think it's that they don't care, per se, but rather it's arrogance. You cannot tell anyone anything without out them getting upset! I deal with people like this day in, day out. I don't know if it's just New Jersey, or the whole country (USA), but people are really stuck on themselves anymore. CP'ers tend to be the best people (as a group) that I know, and most are indeed interested in details. It's just that our culture does not seem to value knowledge like it did in the past. Acting like you know is more important than knowing... Everything is cut and paste, what's is built from scratch anymore? God forbid if you tell someone you don't know something though, it's like you're supposed to be arrogant and if you are not some will feel you're weak. God forbid if you actually had to take the time to open up a book and read it for knowledge instead of for titillation. I do as some other's on the list. If I don't know what a plant is, I don't trade or sell it. Of course, in the begining I didn't realize how much there was to learn! I made some mistakes and traded mislabled plants. Hopefully, I have gotten most everything straightened out by now ;) I do have a plant that is either _D. burmannii_ or _D. sessilifolia_, but I don't know how to tell them apart. Jan mentions that the location data is important. Well, this plant came up in a pot of Sarracenia and I have not grown either species for a couple years. Yet, it just popped up in this pot which was not even close to where I had been growing either species. I don't know how it got there, but now what do I call it if someone wants some seed: D. burmannii/sessilifolia? Dave Evans ################### From: john green Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:27:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers I had intended to cut and paste from an e-mail but accidentally deleted it, so here goes: Fernando said that most CPers are lazy and don't care about keeping collection numbers. Dave Evans responded that he felt it was arrogance, that people in general feel learning is beneath them. Actually, I'd like to propose that it is ignorance. This is the first time I've ever heard of a numbering system for plants. I don't grow orchids and I don't grow cacti, or anything else for that matter except garden plants. And my CPs. I thought you just tried to keep accurate location information and that was the best way to identify specific plants, and I only learned that by ordering seeds from Carl Mazur and Phil Wilson. Heck, that seems a lot easier and more descriptive than some impersonal numbering system. Honestly, this whole discussion sounds like a bunch of botanists and biologists whining about amateurs ruining the hobby. Well, for most of us that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other words - I do it for FUN. Yes, I try to keep location information on my plants (see my website), and I used to try to keep track of who I got a plant from until my collection got a bit large (I can still probably tell you who most of them came from, though). But I think a numbering system would be intimidating to those who are just getting into the hobby (how many kids do you know out there buying orchids and cacti?). It would also make it harder to acquire new plants by trading, because some people won't trade with you if your plant isn't numbered and registered with the appropriate authorities. If you want a numbering system, you people who understand those things have to initiate it, but I think it will de-personalize the hobby. Personally, I find names like 'Tarnok' and 'Lochness' or "Liberty Co., Florida" much more appealing than a number (as if I needed one more number to keep track of!). If I've offended anyone I apologize, and if you feel the need to blast me for it, please send replies to my work address where I'll actually look at them (john.green@ascensus.com) - maybe. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:32:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collection numbers Cool discussion! > on the label or seed packet is correct. Personally I tend to assume the > opposite these days. Until I can positively ID the plant it has a > question mark by it and will not be traded. This applies to both > Utricularia and Drosera. I tend to agree with Phil on this. Anything that comes into my collection gets a "supposedly" stuck in on the label until I can ID it. I don't trade Utricularia or Genlisea to other people until it flowers and I have a chance to ID it. ID'ing rosetted sundews in cultivation, now that is a subject to drive anyone batty. > Maybe the ICPS journal could help us out by writing periodic articles about > id'ing species correctly. Since it takes a taxonomist to understand a > taxonomist it would be helpful if the articles were written for a lay > understanding with lots of drawings and pictures. Indeed. But since it seems that the editors of CPN are a little busy at the moment, perhaps some one else is willing to volunteer for this position? Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "Steve Klitzing" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:56:57 -0800 Subject: Neem Oil on Nepenthes, and skyrocketing utility prices in CA Hi: I had a problem with scale and mealybugs attacking my Nepenthes and orchids. So, I put together a mild dose of Neem Oil, mixed with a little dishwashing soap, and a lot of water, and sprayed it on the Nepenthes and orchids. Two weeks later, the Nepenthes are doing just fine. They did not die. They did not even show any signs of problems. Whatever Neem oil is, it either killed or drove away all the pests. And, my staghorn ferns and orchids survived the application, too. The only drawback is that Neem oil is rather pungent, and the smell can last a few days, but it does go away. As for the skyrocketing utility prices here in California, heating my greenhouse is making things expensive, particularly where I live, which has an average of 33-35 degrees F. at night during the winter months. So, I'm buying a 250-foot roll of bubble wrap, cost $80, to line the inside of my glass greenhouse. I expect this will drastically reduce heating costs. And, when the weather warms up in April, I can store the bubble wrap for next year. Perhaps I should have bought twin-wall polycarbonate instead of glass, however, all plastics wear out in a few short years due to UV, and I would have to fork out another $3000 to replace it. At this point, twin wall makes no sense. There was a rose grower interviewed on TV who operates north of the S.F. Bay Area. Last year his December heating bill was $29,000 for all his greenhouses. This year it's $300,000. The commercial growers would be smart to relocate their operations near geo-thermal areas, because heating would then be free. I was in Rotorua, New Zealand, in late 1999, and discovered that the whole city has free heat. Residents drill a hole 80 feet down and put in a heat exchanger. Nobody freezes in the winter, and nobody pays for heat. Of course, living on a dormant volcanic caldera can have its hazards. The Icelanders do the same thing and they actually grow their own bananas in greenhouses heated by geothermal. So, if you can locate to an area near, or containing, warm or hot springs, you can do this as well. Greenhouse fans generally don't use a lot of power, and mine pulls about .26 amps, which is fine even on a hot day. PG&E has been scaring the public lately, talking about blackouts and the like, claiming that there is not enough power to go around. This sounds suspiciously like the gas crisis of 1973, when the oil companies claimed they had no oil. When the price of oil skyrocketed, magically, there was plenty of gasoline. So, right now, the partners in this theatre act appear to be holding up a boogey-man doll and shaking it in front of Californians. And, it's too bad, because if they are allowed to frighten us into submission, there are a lot of lower income Californians who cannot afford the rate increases. And what will they do? As for our government, well, like government anywhere, we have career politicians who only do what's necessary to appease their constituency, and then return to business as usual. Sometimes, I just get tired of hearing the latest big lie. If you don't hear from me soon, it's because California has been cast into eternal darkness - oh no! What will we do without the ability to watch Temptation Island and Survivor? ---Steve Klitzing _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:06:30 -0500 Subject: RE: Collection numbers >Indeed. But since it seems that the editors of CPN are a little busy at >the moment, perhaps some one else is willing to volunteer for this >position? Fernando, I think I read your name above . The challenge will be to write at my educational level David ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:38:20 -0800 Subject: Emergency: Petiolaris Sean Attention Listees, Petiolaris Sean, asked me to inform you all that he is experiancing computer problems and is unable to reply to his many many e-mail messages. Please be patient and he will get back to you. Apparently while attempting to improve the efficiency of his computer he accidentally deleted vital program files. This concludes our test of the emergency broadcast system. If this had been an actual emergency, you would be in big trouble right now:-) Crazy Ivan ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:40:53 EST Subject: Re: Emergency: Petiolaris Sean Crazy Ivan, Thanks for clearing the air on Petiolaris Sean's woes. The Nebraska carnivorous plant contingent(maybe three of us) was starting to get offended and we were thinking about declaring war on the Californians, but that would not be a fair war, seeing how the odds would be a hundred to one, or so. You don't have enough Californians...:) Hope everyone is enjoying the year 2001, so far. "Orible Joe" Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: John Phillips Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:47:47 -0800 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers I agree that keeping accurate records of one's plants is important, but I believe it is best to ENCOURAGE newbies and not-so-newbies to keep accurate records of their plants origins, etc. Insulting people will not be taken well. Remember, there are CP'ers lurking on this list who will take the strong language of more "experienced" CP'ers the wrong way, and they will be discouraged from participating in the CP community. Sometimes I get private e-mail from these list lurkers who have a question, but were to afraid to ask the list for fear of being called arrogant, ignorant and otherwise "flamed". Like honey vs. vinegar, mentoring will improve our community more than...well you know... I hope I have not insulted anyone. ################### From: "Adao Pereira" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:51:53 -0000 Subject: Looking for specific CPN article and others Hello again! Yet doing my work about Byblis, I came across some references of articles which would be very helpful. So please if anyone has one of the following articles, email me, I would be very grateful: - De Buhr (??), L.E., (1975), Observations on Byblis gigantea in Western Australia. CPN 4:60-61 - Bruce A.N. (1905), On the glands of Byblis gigantea Lindl. Notes from the Loyd Botanical Society; Edinbourgh, 16:9-14 The following articles about Genlisea would be helpful too: - Majnussen (??) B.C. (1982), An Introduction to Genlisea, CPN 11:13-15 - Fromm-Trista (??) (1989), Genliseas Americanas. Sellowia 36:55-62 I would thank very much anyone who could arrange me copies of these articles. Thanks for your attention! Miguel ################### From: JWi5770869@cos.agilent.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:14:50 EST Subject: Drooling Sarrs In a message dated 11/01/01 09:12:58 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > The other day I was looking at my S. leuco 'Tarnok' and noticed an unusually > large amount of sticky secretions, both at the top opening and around the > lower 2 or 3 inches of the pitchers. I've seen this before with my other > Sarrs, but usually it's most heavy around the opening with little on the > rest of the pitcher (with the possible exception of the edge of the ala or > wing). I looked all over the plant and could see no signs of scale or any > other insect pests. There are a few other Sarrs nearby (different species) > but none of them are exhibiting this excess. The stuff is practically > running in drops down the pitchers! Is this normal for this species or do I John, I have a Sarr x rehderi (spelling?) that exibits the same behaviour. The only trouble I've found with Sarrs that do this is you can end up with sooty mould growing on the nectar, which looks awful. If its bothering you, wipe its mouth as you would a drooling child All the best John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:24:20 EST Subject: D. capensis "alba" Hi All, Here is a relatively mundane question about something I am a little fuzzy on: Is D. capensis"alba" referring to a white- flowered form(seems like it should) or is it referring to a all green plant? I have heard both used as descriptions. What I supposedly have is all-green and I have never had it flower. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "R B" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:07:24 -0800 Subject: Reminder: Los Angeles CPS meeting is tomorrow! >From Ivan Snyder: The next meeting of the Los Angeles Carnivorous Plant Society will be Saturday, January 13 at the Alhambra Chamber of Commerce, 104 S. First Street. Doors open at 12, meeting starts at 1:00 pm. Admission: $2.00 DIRECTIONS Driving east on the 10 freeway exit Garfield and go north about one mile.Turn left on Main, one block to First Street, then left again another block. Free parking. PROGRAM Display and sales table. Bring in your own plants for show, sale or trade, and meet other local growers to learn growing techniques. All genera represented (hopefully). Free refreshments available. PRESENTATION Ed Read will give a slide show from his visit to Mexico and tell about Mexican Pinquicula. Dick Trans will demonstrate his capillary mat system for growing Cephalotus. See you there. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Andrew Broome Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:13:01 +1300 Subject: RE: collection numbers Fernando said... > I think collection numbers is a great idea... I came to the CP hobby via the killifish hobby (in which I'm still active) and still can't get over the difference in approach that people from the two groups have. With the serious killifish keeper, location names and collection data are generally considered to be very important and with major efforts being taken to keep even different collections of the same species apart from each other. The whole concept of hybrids is abhorrent to most, and fish without collection data are all considered 'Aquarium Strains'. Generally the point is to keep the fish as close as possible as to what they were like when first collected. > Also, no matter how detailed I write down a site name, > I notice how quickly they begin popping up spelled wrong here Of course, this happens with killies as well and while it's a shame I still feel it's important to do your best to keep track of information about a species and to try and verify it when possible. Luckily with killies there are several very keen people who have been assigning collection codes since the '80s and this has become more common during the '90s as a more scientific approach to collecting and the information that can be gained from it has been adopted. There is even a book that lists all the known collections and who made them and exactly where etc. With certain groups there are also keen individuals who will jump up and correct people who (accidentily or otherwise) try and distribute fish with incorrect labels. Brian Watters and the Nothobranchius genus springs to mind. This does ruffle a few feathers from time to time with people who don't like to be corrected but that's a small price to pay, IMHO. Anyay, as I said, it's just interesting (to me) to note the differences in approach. Certainly with my CPs I record any location information I get and it's passed on with the plant if I propagate it. Just my thoughts... Andrew@home. *NZKA 137, NAKA 5, AKA 07212, PNAS, NZCPS ... * Degeneracy can be fun, but it's hard to keep up * as a serious lifetime occupation. * Robert M. Pirsig (ZatAoMM) *Killies: Ducatis: Reptiles & Amphibians: Carnivorous Plants: ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:34:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers Exactly John, ..... and how accurate is the information. For instance I can easily go to Lowrie's seed list and find location mistakes for cp from the SE USA. I'm not just talking about miss-spelling's either. But not to insult or flame, Mr. Lowrie must go on information sent him. I bring his name up as he is well respected within the cp community. Just as I may label the incorrect origin of a Nepenethes that comes in miss-identified. I really am not that knowledgeable about geographic locations on Borneo, or for that matter most places, some I have been too. :-) As for cactus..... wow what a mess. Very close to total confusion with numbering. The nomenclature with succulents provides long term job stability for Botanist. Take the Genus Notocactus, now includes Parodia next year maybe not. Some collections use one, either, or both names. Warming up finally, ~ Mike St. Petersburg Florida USA ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:50 PM > > I agree that keeping accurate records of one's plants is important, > but I believe it is best to ENCOURAGE newbies and not-so-newbies to keep > accurate records of their plants origins, etc. Insulting people will not > be taken well. Remember, there are CP'ers lurking on this list who will > take the strong language of more "experienced" CP'ers the wrong way, and > they will be discouraged from participating in the CP community. Sometimes > I get private e-mail from these list lurkers who have a question, but were > to afraid to ask the list for fear of being called arrogant, ignorant and > otherwise "flamed". > Like honey vs. vinegar, mentoring will improve our community more > than...well you know... > I hope I have not insulted anyone. > > ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:23:19 -0600 Subject: Re: collection numbers Andrew, I saw your reference to killifish on the CP list. I've kept tropicals and have goldfish in pools. Tell me about killies. How can I get some that are native to zone 7 (Arkansas). Thanks, Wayne Morrow ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 07:35:21 +1100 Subject: Re: D. capensis "alba" Joe, and others, My D. capensis 'alba' is both all-green and white flowered. Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 ph: (03) 62262624 ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:32:18 +1100 Subject: Borneo Hi all As some of you know, I'm travelling to Borneo in June for several weeks. I have accumulated a fair amount of info on the place but.... If anyone out there has been or has any interesting info on where to go or what to see, could they please point me in the right direction. I am going to Kuching, Bako N.P.,Gunung Mulu N.P., Niah N.P., M.T Kinabalu (naturally), and Sandakan. I'm after specific information eg. 20 paces north, 50 paces east N. northiana!! Thanks Greg ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:33:14 -0500 Subject: Re: D. capensis "alba" Dear Joe, > Here is a relatively mundane question about something I am a little fuzzy on: Is D. capensis"alba" referring to a white- flowered form(seems like it should) or is it referring to a all green plant? I have heard both used as descriptions. What I supposedly have is all-green and I have never had it flower. Umm, so far all the "alba" plants I have seen are really all-green. I think "alba" is either a misused latin term or someone though that all-green plants are albinos and used "alba" to indicate so. Well, they are diffenitely not albinos as if they were they would not have any green and in turn die. Some place more importantance on color and feel that alba should be part of the official name, I guess it's sort of a political statement in this case. Yes, an "all-green" plant will have white flowers, since they can't make other pigments, unless the flowers happen to be green also. I don't know of any CP's with green flowers though. If the flowers are some color other than normal, or there is no normal color (like D. cistiflora), but the plant itself has normal color just note, "red flower", "white flower", "cream fl." or ect. Dave Evans ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 05:13:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers Dear John and List, > Fernando said that most CP'ers are lazy and don't care about keeping > collection numbers. Dave Evans responded that he felt it was arrogance, > that people in general feel learning is beneath them. Actually, I'd like to > propose that it is ignorance. Well, I would like to clarify: I don't think CP'ers tend to be lazy and arrogant, as the subject line might indicate. I think people in general have become so, rather like it's popular attitude to have. I feel this is starting hamper society, but enough of that (I am just glad I don't have to interveiw people for positions). Truly as you mention, laziness and arrogance are not going to stop CP'ers from using a numbering system anyway (sorry I got side tracked from the numbering system last time), rather not knowing how to use one would! I have not used a number system and don't know the best way to go about building one either. I would say, though, that many types of CP's don't really need to be numbered for ease of tracking, unless you want to do a study of distribution patterns of captive plants! (which would be a massive undertaking, and I doubt you'd be able to do a decent census anyway) For example: _Cephalotus follicularis_ is just that, you're not gonna mistake it for another species. Even the various "giant" clones don't seem much of any different. Just better cultivated and allowed to grow to their potential. Would a numbering system that includes location data make it easier to produce seed? For this species, hardly anyone bothers with producing seed when the cuttings work so much faster... So I don't think there is much practical use in that case, but on the other hand we have tuberous Drosera that need to be of separate stock in order to produce seed (what exceptions are there besides for _D. auriculata_ and _D. peltata_?). If we want to be able to produce seed of most of these species, we would need a system that keeps track of clones and successive generations to keep from inbreeding. Is a location numbering system worth using for the species that are not self-fertile? After all, one generation in and you will not have plants from those locations anymore... Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette thingies (Drosera) that no one seems to be able to keep track of, a numbering system would be very beneficial just for keeping track of the species. This system would be linear, with the numbers corresponding the location. Since all of these are self-pollinating, or at least self-fertile, the same number can follow down the generations from parent to the seed. It's sound like the easiest (laziest? Devil's advocate here) way to go for these. Also, I doubt this system would be the slightest bit intimidating to beginners. Rather the opposite. It would help them to feel more connected and capable. After all, how else would we deal with this hypothetical: _D. montana tomentosa_ was collected at site AX, however, the seed that was collected included another very similar but different plant. The person who collected the seed didn't even realize there was another species present since the lighting was poor as night was coming on. Seed is distributed and some people are growing what they think is D. montana tomentosa and it looks pretty close anyway, but it's really not. The seed gets spread under the wrong name, some people catch it, many don't and there's no way to ever hope of straightening it out. Had there been a resource (a web page, of course) for such a numbering system/location data database and the original collector had registered and distributed the seed under the name "D. montana tomentosa XYZ", anyone interested could follow this trail. Once the more experienced growers realize that D. montana tomentosa XYZ is really two plants and what the other species is and how they differ, the data base could be undated with this info. Anyone, even the lay-growers, that are interested in accuracy would be able to follow this lead. Since it cuts out much guess work and points them right to the proper diagnosis, I think it would help move them toward an appreciation of the finer points of CP taxonomy. How would new locations be added, and would they need to be verified in some way? Dave Evans ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:18:25 +1100 Subject: Collection Data and Borneo A very emotional subject for all! I'd like to add my thoughts without upsetting anyone. I have roughly 200 different species and hybrid CPs. From what I can gather,of these 200, 100 should have a ? next to them and by rights I should destroy any seed or spare plants as I am unable to gather enough information to properly identify them. I'm an Electrican, just a humble tradesman with a passion for C.P.s. I have purchased seed and plants from most well known growers and societies. I keep as much information as I receive with those purchases and like to think that I can trust these people to have sold me the "right thing". I do not sell anything that I am not confident is the right thing but as I said without the right information, I must believe what I've bought is right. An example: Every D. coccicaulis I have seen in Australia looks the same but I was recently told by an educated man (Hi Robert) that it appears that these are all in fact D. venusta or at least that's what they call them in the U.S.A. I've sold hundreds of these things! Sorry! At least if collections were numbered and the numbers weren't lost as plants were distributed, we would be able to re-name plants as the information became available and eventually weed out those that were not correctly labeled. If nothing else, a numbering system would prop up the C.P. market,and send those who have to have it all (like me) broke buying them. I hope some of that made sence to those who chose to read it. Thanks Greg While I'm here, I forgot to ask with yesturday's Borneo question that I was interested in seeing Drosera and Utrics when I get there. ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:31:22 -0000 Subject: Numbering of plants. Time to rejoin the discussion I started. It's always hard to see things revive after Christmas but it seems this topic did it! I'm surprised by good volume of positive response so far. First, I have to say John Phillips made a good point. It can be easy to offend people by calling them names. On this occassion it was me. But I did it to stimulate a discussion - which seems to have worked. No-one was personally attacked and those who might have responded worst have actually just participated. And I only asked a question. Still, I acknowledge John's point, politely made. Some people have started to interpret my point, and the responses to it, in way that I didn't intend. In the main, this relates to personally attaching numbers to plants in a collection, with fears, concerns arising. Before I comment, let me start by adding a few technical terms. I won't introduce many. And they are very easy to get used to and use, if anyone wants to. (The taxonomists can correct me if I describe anything wrongly, though I hope not to expand too much as this will add complexity!) There are two very important "numbers" that can and should be attached to a plant in a collection. Not everyone will want to do this, but some will especially if they understand why it's useful. The first number is called an Accession Number. It need not be a number, it can contain any characters that can be typed or written. However, it's usual to use letters, numbers and special characters such as slash and hyphen, generally all as available on a normal (QWERTY) typewriter or PC keyboard. I won't explain (now) the different ways these Accession Numbers can be constructed (historically some were very complex) but suffice to say that it shouldn't matter (and if you start now, just stick to a simple sequence. The easiest model or template for using Accession Numbers is to use the very easy and obvious sequence, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. The other "number" important to collections is a field collection number or Collector's Number. This is, as for accession numbers, another group of characters so it need not be a number literally. Again, 1,2,3,4, etc. is the easiest to use. There is a third, less common, "number" which is one assigned to each different field trip. Often this is just absorbed into the Collector's Number but it can be a separate value (so if starting numbering now, you can ignore Field Trip numbers altogether, though advanced users may want to use them). So, now I've attached names to the "numbers", when are they used? Let's start with the one that is theoretically used first. This is the "Collector's Number". People who actually go out looking for plants in the wild are those who should (or could) use these. If a person on a field trip finds a plant, it is normal and good scientific practice to attach a unique "Collector's Number" to each specimen found. The collection number is unique to the person using it as that person has no way of knowing what collection numbers are being used by anyone else in the world. It is possible that the collector's number is assigned to a plant on behalf of the collector but by someone else. However, it's done when or soon after (hopefully) the plant is collected from the wild and theoretically before the specimen is positively identified. Accesion Numbers are assigned by anyone (and ideally everyone) who has a collection of plants. Clearly, if you grow 2 cacti and a poinsietta (only at Christmas), you won't use Accessions Numbers. But if you want to collect lots of plants and f you hope to know or label (correctly) what they are, then Accession Numbers are a good idea. Assigning them couldn't be simpler. Simply choose a plant in your collection and give it your choice of an "Axccession Number". "1" is a very good choice but you could be more exotic and mix letters, numbers, dates, etc. But why add complications, just start with "1". Then choose another plant, it makes no difference which, and give it a unique "Accession Number" that you haven't already used. If you started with "1", "2" would be a sensible and obvious choice. If you use exotic numbering systems, remebering what comes next may be difficult. Obviously you just keep going - 3, 4, 5, etc. OK. So I hope I've demonstrated that assigning Accession and Collector's Numbers is really trivial. Even if your field trip is into the field outside your back garden (for those living in the Florida Panhandle, Belize, Western Australia or other CP rich areas), you still attach the numbers. Field Trips do not have to be formal, planned or to anywhere in partticular. Next, why use these numbers at all? I'll start with Accession Numbers. We all know what a pain CP identification can be. Some of those red rosetty things (er, Drosera), are damned similar! And it would be stupid to think that all CP'ers will spend hours identifying each plant in their collection - most will use the name the plant arrived with and trust it is correct, even though we know that a massive number of plants are labelled incorrectly! But, let us say that we all suddenly sarted using numbers. And let me assume I give five of you the same Pinguicula (with Accession Number 1234) . Now you can assign it your own accession number (each of you will give it a different one). Now, let's assume I suddenly decide my Pinguicula is in fact wrongly named. I may not know who has the plant but I can publish my plant list. Against plant Accession Number 1234 I can give the correct name (and perhaps show that this has changed). Now anyone who has a plant that originated from me with Accession Number 1234 can rename their plant to the correct name. This is just one use. But it shows that Accession Numbers allow traceability - you can follow a plant from its current owner back to the source. A second use, which should appeal to many of us, is long term. Suppose a plant dies out in the wild. Many of us would like to think we could try to repopulate the wild. many discussions have already pointed outv that to try this, you must use as much plant material as possible to ensure genetic variety is present. But how can you be sure you are planting different plants rather than clones? The answer is by tracing a plant's origin using Accession Numbers. This happened with the "Chocolate Plant" Cosmos atrosanguineus, which did become extinct in the wild. A world-wide request was made for contact by gardeners who grew this plant. Each that responded was asked to donate material. All materiual donated was genetically tested. And each donation that was of a different genetic variety was added to the group of plants that were planted back in the wild. Over 90% of plants tested actually came from a single clone! However, if all the gardeners had used Accession Numbers, testing may have been unnecessary, saving a lot money. Collector's numbers also play a part in the smae way. The only real difference is that a Colector's Number is really a special Accession Number that identifies the wild origin of a plant. But it's critical this is assigned and recorded. First, in the previous example (Cosmos), suppose I trace two plants back to two orignal commercial nurseries. Are they different plants? I don't know. Probably, but not for sure. Maybe the nurseries both got their plants from the same collector after a field trip. Maybe one got plants from the other nursery and didn't record it. Accession Numbers are assined by each grower so it only takes one person to forget to record the accession number, r to forget to record the number assigned by the person they got their plant from, and traceability ends! But a Collector's Number is assigned to a plant specimen and should remain with it and all it's clones (or with seed and all their progeny). So even if Accession Numbers are not used, if we all recorded Collector's Numbers for every plant we had, we could trace every single plant we had back to when it was first collected from the wild. Which means that when a new plant (say P. species nova, Collector's Number 9876) is actually named, we can all update our records so that the plant is anamed correctly. Collector's Numbers are how I started this listserver topic. I would like to think that all wild collected plants could now be given collector's numbers when collected. I would like to think that those collectors would distribute their plants complete with Cllector's Numbers. And I would like to think they would ask that those they distribute plants to are asked to maintain the Collector Number so that when they too distribute the plant, it is accompanied by it's Collector's Number. Obviously this will not affect plants already in cultivation. But it will affect new plants that some of us are lucky enough to have the chance to introduce. And even though you might still wonder if you really want to be bothered, I thnk most of you will. Aftter all, when you spend your money on a plant, wouldn't you like to know it really is what the label says it is? Well Collector's Numbers areyour insurance. Of course unscrupulous people could invent bogus numbers, but it's traceable and I've never heard of it happening in the cactus or Orchid world, where numbering is common. So if a plant has an asigned Collector's Number that is published with it in a seed or plant catalogue or in a private list, you can place some trust in the name as the plant records have clearly been maintained well. This has only been a simple introduction (it's long enough already!). There is more that can be said but that would, I think, be overkill at this time. But there no reason why others can't add more in separate emails. So, how about we have a go at using Collector's Numbers and Accession Numbers? How about we ask plant nurseries (the CP specialist nurseries) to supply colletor's and accession number details with each plant we buy from them? How about asking our frinds for these numbers when we exchange plants (or even if they offer to give us plants)? We'll be doing ourselves, and each other, a favour! How about field trip description being published in CPN (and the other journals) not just with the names of plants seen, but with the Collector's Numbers of specimens taken for introduction into cultivation (so we know hat to ask for or to look for in the catalogues)? It's up to you. It's a decision each person can make for themselves. It's a little more work (not much), but it adds enormous value to a collection from scientific and conservation perspectives. And the financial value of properly recorded plants is also higher!!! It's just an idea. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:57:55 -0200 Subject: Re: Collection numbers and "lazy, arrogant" CPers John and all, > Fernando said that most CPers are lazy and don't care about keeping > collection numbers. Looking back at what I wrote, I don't see the word "lazy" anywhere, so this is your interpretation here John. Read the paragraph below again please: "...the truth is that most CPers don't care. How often do we see people growing things which are totally not what the label says. They simply couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of taxonomy (which some of us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't bother looking it up." Basically, I'm agreeing with what you wrote: > Actually, I'd like to propose that it is ignorance. .... > Honestly, this whole discussion sounds like a bunch of botanists and > biologists whining about amateurs ruining the hobby. Well, for most of us > that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid > because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other words > - I do it for FUN. That's exactly it, many CPers couldn't give a hoot about location info because they're in it for fun. And we can't tell them they're wrong and that they should do it "our" way. Maybe that's the difference between the CP hobby and the orchid / cacti hobbies. Excuse my partiality here, but CPs are WAY more fun to cultivate than orchids, cacti, bromeliads, etc., maybe attracting the younger crowd and the more informal hobbiest type. Orchids and cacti (because they're boring compared to CPs! :):) ) seem to attract more professional/ I-want-the-most-perfect-plant types. And killifish are probably not as easy to "grow" either, attracting the same type of people. So I am not being critical towards the "plain" hobbiests when I say they don't give a damn about taxonomy. I'm just stating a fact, to which they have all the right in the world to do as they like. > But I think a numbering system would be > intimidating to those who are just getting into the hobby (how many kids do > you know out there buying orchids and cacti?). It would also make it harder > to acquire new plants by trading, because some people won't trade with you > if your plant isn't numbered and registered with the appropriate > authorities. If you want a numbering system, you people who understand > those things have to initiate it, but I think it will de-personalize the > hobby. Personally, I find names like 'Tarnok' and 'Lochness' or "Liberty > Co., Florida" much more appealing than a number (as if I needed one more > number to keep track of!). Could be true, but then again maybe the cacti, orchid, and killifish people said the same thing when it was originally proposed. On the one hand, I think it'll mostly add to the confusion, that we should stick to location names and whoever wants to can follow it. BUT... only in the past few weeks I have communicated with a few CPers on the listserv about plants that they grew from seeds possibly collected by me. In some cases it's easy to know if they were really my collections, but some not. A collection number would've cleared that up immediately. All the best, Fernando Rivadavia Sao paulo, Brazil ################### From: John Brittnacher Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:58:59 -0800 Subject: New seeds in ICPS seed bank Sean Samia donated some rare seeds to the ICPS seed bank: Byblis liniflora, Drosera ordensis, Drosera paradoxa x darbyensis, and Roridula gorgonias. Quantities are VERY limited. Sean says Drosera paradoxa x darbyensis won't germinate without GA3 treatment. Please don't ask for the seeds if you can't get any GA3. I don't have any and don't know where you can get it. The seeds are listed at http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/seeds.cgi I will not be able to process any seed bank orders until 27 January. Orders will be processed by postmark date with orders mailed before 18 January processed at random. So there is no point to express mail your order or send me e-mail about it. The only exception is for people who have credit with the seed bank for donating seeds. You may send your order via e-mail and it will be processed before mail orders. If you want special treatment next time, send me seeds the seed bank needs. For more info check out the seed bank FAQ page http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/seedFAQ.htm Remember, seed bank sales are for members only. Don't bother asking for multiple packets of any variety unless I have 40 or more packets of it, I'll either substitute something else or return your money. ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:11:48 -0600 Subject: Niagra Carnivores Has Niagra moved their web site? Does anyone have the seed codes they use? Thanks Wayne ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:34:03 -0000 Subject: More Re: Collection numbers First, let me repeat so that poor old Fernando doesn't end up ruing the day he wrote on this topic - IT WAS ME!!! I started this discussion! I asked if CPers were lazy! Blame me, not Fernando! OK. Have I made my point? Is anything unclear? Hope not! :-) Meanwhile.... > I would say, though, that many types of CP's don't really need to be >numbered for ease of tracking, unless you want to do a study of distribution >patterns of captive plants! (which would be a massive undertaking, and I >doubt you'd be able to do a decent census anyway) For example: _Cephalotus >follicularis_ is just that, you're not gonna mistake it for another species. I disagree. While there may never be more than one taxon (e.g. a single species, no wild variants as subspecies, varieties, etc.), there are separate populations witrh presumably different genetic content. We do not know if this plant may become threatened in the wild but we do need to know which plants originate from different locations to preserve the knowledge of different genetic groups. This would even be importnt to breeders hoping to generate cultivars, which often depend on introducing vigour by mixing as much genetic variance as possible from the correct choice of parent plants. >Even the various "giant" clones don't seem much of any different. Just >better cultivated and allowed to grow to their potential. Would a numbering >system that includes location data make it easier to produce seed? For this >species, hardly anyone bothers with producing seed when the cuttings work so >much faster... Which is why we have so few plants that are "different". I'm no hampion of cultivars, I colect species, but cultivar lovers would like new forms of Cephalotus, I assume. > Is a location numbering system worth using for the species that are not >self-fertile? After all, one generation in and you will not have plants >from those locations anymore... Yes. Because plants can be produced asexually and then are identical to the parents (clones thereof), so the collection data is perfectly applicable. > Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette >thingies (Drosera) ... Ah, a like minded soul :-) that no one seems to be able to keep track of, a >numbering system would be very beneficial just for keeping track of the >species. This system would be linear, with the numbers corresponding the >location. No. That would require central co-ordination. It is only necessary for a collector to maintain his or her system and for each collector to have their own system. I doubt this system would be the slightest bit >intimidating to beginners. Rather the opposite. It would help them to feel >more connected and capable. It certainly isn't difficult. If you can write a name on a label, for beginners the "number" would simply be an extension of the name, another part of the label. > After all, how else would we deal with this hypothetical: _D. montana >tomentosa_ was collected at site AX, however, the seed that was collected >included another very similar but different plant. The person who collected >the seed didn't even realize there was another species present since the >lighting was poor as night was coming on. Seed is distributed and some >people are growing what they think is D. montana tomentosa and it looks >pretty close anyway, but it's really not. The seed gets spread under the >wrong name, some people catch it, many don't and there's no way to ever hope >of straightening it out. Had there been a resource (a web page, of course) >for such a numbering system/location data database and the original >collector had registered and distributed the seed under the name "D. montana >tomentosa XYZ", anyone interested could follow this trail. There is potentially such a thing already. Jan's excellent CP database already helps track previous names of a CP. I would assume that new species identified by a collection number might appear in such a database, under their correct name, with a reference to the original and the collection number. If not, a parallel similar database is perfectly feasible. > How would new locations be added, and would they need to be verified >in some way? No need. As I said, you don't want central coordination because noone will guarantee its maintenance. As I've already said, t isn't necessary. >At least if collections were numbered and the numbers weren't lost as plants >were distributed, we would be able to re-name plants as the information >became available and eventually weed out those that were not correctly >labeled. Exactly! >If nothing else, a numbering system would prop up the C.P. market,and send >those who have to have it all (like me) broke buying them. Yes, it does help CP sales as the avid collectors who strive to have everything in their list might feel obliged to buy plants that differ by collection number. But we already do this anyway as, in many cases, the collector's number would reference what curently get listed as place names. (However, place names are not collector's numbers and can never replace them.) > Looking back at what I [Fernando] wrote, I don't see the word > "lazy" anywhere, It was me - your old, or is it now ex friend Paul :-) !!!!!!! >"...the truth is that most CPers don't care. How often do we see people >growing things which are totally not what the label says. They simply >couldn't give a woof about all the boring details of taxonomy (which some of >us strangely enough appear to feed on) and don't bother looking it up." True, but people may still keep data as part of the label without caring what it means. After all, people do have plants labelled Pinguicula moranensis alba (or Alba or "Alba") but there is no such thing, it's actually just plain P. moranensis. >> Honestly, this whole discussion sounds like a bunch of botanists and >> biologists whining about amateurs ruining the hobby. Well, for most of us >> that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid >> because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other >words >> - I do it for FUN. And if fun means not recording collector's numbers or accesion numbers, don't. You will not be alone, no- one will tell you off. It's your hobby and you can run it the way that suits you. But perhaps others will record useful data if they know how and why. It will not make them "better" people, and it won't make their plants more valuable to them than yos are to you. But it will make tproperly labelled plants more valuable generally and as long as you don't care, that isn't a problem. Please - I've gone out of my way not to criticise your comment here - it's sincere - there's no criticism intended for how you wish to manage your hobby. > That's exactly it, many CPers couldn't give a hoot about location >info because they're in it for fun. And we can't tell them they're wrong and >that they should do it "our" way. Maybe that's the difference between the CP >hobby and the orchid / cacti hobbies. Excuse my partiality here, but CPs are >WAY more fun to cultivate than orchids, cacti, bromeliads, etc., maybe >attracting the younger crowd and the more informal hobbiest type. A touch prejudiced perhaps? CPs are more fun if you like CP's. If you like orchids, you probably can't even spell CD's, oops - I mean, CP's! No-one is telling hobbyists that it's wrong to not record data. But, and I feel a big argument will result from this following statement, no-one who collects a plant from the wild should do so without recording the data. Casual collecting of wild plants is a threat to wild plants. People doing it generally remove lants that are already in cultivation. People who do it to capture a new species , a new variant or for other reputable scientific reasons need the data even if they do not yet realise it. >and cacti (because they're boring compared to CPs! :):) ) seem to attract >more professional/ I-want-the-most-perfect-plant types. Clearly there's no such thing. But it tends to be the amatures that strive for the longest fullest lists. Others tend to specialise so limiting the numbers of plants appropriate to their collection. >> But I think a numbering system would be >> intimidating to those who are just getting into the hobby (how many kids >do >> you know out there buying orchids and cacti?). Yes, kids could be put off if it isn't explained. But I've many years experience of working with kids. I find that they love to be challenged and that they are put off by rules when there is no logical explanation for the rule. Accession Numbering is not a rule, it's a good guideline that can be explained. >It would also make it harder >> to acquire new plants by trading, because some people won't trade with you >> if your plant isn't numbered and registered with the appropriate >> authorities. No, authorities are irrelevent - I'm not sugesting any involvement of an authority. But wait a minute, haven't you just made my point? If people won't exchange plants because they aren't numbered, isn't that saying that numbered plants would be more highly valued? I hink I owe you thanks for that remark! :-) > If you want a numbering system, you people who understand >> those things have to initiate it, but I think it will de-personalize the >> hobby. Personally, I find names like 'Tarnok' and 'Lochness' or "Liberty >> Co., Florida" much more appealing than a number (as if I needed one more >> number to keep track of!). So use those names - no problem. And despite what you say, I'd still be interested in plants with no number. You'd still be able to exchange and run your hobby your way with no criticism (or at least with none that was fair). >I think it'll mostly add to the confusion, that we should stick to >location names and whoever wants to can follow it. BUT... only in the past >few weeks I have communicated with a few CPers on the listserv about plants >that they grew from seeds possibly collected by me. In some cases it's easy >to know if they were really my collections, but some not. A collection >number would've cleared that up immediately. Thank you thank you thank you. I'm not trying to make a fun hobby boring. I'm trying to explain how a small amount of data that people can keep - ***if they want to*** can help all of us. OK. I'm not getting at anyone. Also, cut and paste can result in me answering a point but incorrectly pointing at the wrong author. I'm not concerned with who wrote a point - only with responding to the point made. It's also important to note that there are people out there who argue just to play Devil's Advocate (I'm often one of them). They argue to raise the discussion and see what is said - a reasonable approach that allows things to be aired and answered. So I'm using comments written as springboards to reply to, not to criticise the authors (whom I often know well and consider friends - unless they like Drosera)! It would be good to hear what some of those who consider themselves "young" or "amature" think. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: "R. E. Jones" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:51:06 -0000 Subject: D.gigantea asexual reproduction? Hi, I have a couple of D. gigantea which are doing fairly well but one of them has started producing small plants from the leaves! I noticed a few days ago that there were lots of "insects" on the leaves but failed to look at them properly. Today I examined them and each leaf has a small plant growing from the center of the lamina. They look as though they have small pygmy droseras growing there. Has anybody seen this before, is it common? I shall try and get some of them to grow independently but before I do has any body had experience of this before and if so, what happened? It is rather like if I put D. binata leaves in a bag of Sphagnum and they bud off at the ends. Dick http://www.angelfire.com/ab4/REJones/ ################### From: EdwardK674@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:09:06 EST Subject: Re: Accession Numbers In a message dated 1/14/01 4:22:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: << Next, why use these numbers at all? I'll start with Accession Numbers. We all know what a pain CP identification can be. Some of those red rosetty things (er, Drosera), are damned similar! And it would be stupid to think that all CP'ers will spend hours identifying each plant in their collection - most will use the name the plant arrived with and trust it is correct, even though we know that a massive number of plants are labelled >> Hi All, To make it a little easier I have a suggestion used by our Zoo. If you have a large collection of various cps it is easier to assign the numbers in tiers to allow for easier tracking. For example all fo your pings could be 100-199, the drosera could be 200-299, utrics are 300-399, etc. Of couse you can assign any numbers but this allows a little bit of easier cataloging and tracking. Ed ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:36:35 -0500 Subject: Collection Numbers Hello all, I enjoy all of this exchange of information on this subject, and am learning a great deal about how numbering plants is supposed to work. I have been ignorant and possibly caused some confusion in my distribution of plant material, unintentionally. I always try to be as accurate as possible, including all information known by me with all plants distributed, including the original source, if asked. I have attempted, with some success, to learn how to key plant specimens in Latin, German, and English. I have taken and assisted College level botany classes, and communicated with knowlegable collectors, Horticulturists, Botanists, and Taxonomists. I agree to disagree and understand the concepts of "clumpers" and "splitters". I do not understand the lack of interest in placing a botanists name after the bi-generic scientific name of plants. The reason I bring this up is because the _majority_ of people responding to my offer of _Nepenthes bicalcarata_ Hook. f. seed this fall, corrected my misspelling of the species name, because a very popular and informative book "The Savage Garden" by Peter D'Amato (hello Peter) has this plant named Nepenthes bicalcurata five times in it's text. This plant is so easy to distinguish and separate from any other, it is a trivial discrepency, except for the fact that I was corrected by two people in positions as Directors of Botanical Gardens! I use Peters book regularly, and tell all I know it is one of the best written on it's subject. Evidently I am not the only one! When will the popularity of this new name or synonym make it accepted as the "correct" spelling? Or is it already? It is easy to point fingers and find fault with others work, and in no way do I mean to insult Peter's work. I only wish to point out the importance of including as much information as possible, including common names, to help everyone share in this subject, without missunderstandings. If anyone has no interest in the botanical names, numbers or botanist names attached to your plants tag, simply ignore them. Also, if my past numbering system, of my horticulturally produced material, has caused confusion, please feel free to contact me for explanations. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, Fl. USA ################### From: j.dewitte@t-online.de (Jean-Pierre De Witte) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:43:25 +0100 Subject: Re:collection numbers Tought maybe I should throw in some comments on above. The reason we don't have collection numbers is because the interesting CPs are protected, either by CITES or by being inside national parks, and since we don't want to go against the law we dont collect plants and thus we can't give collection number, and anybody who says otherwise..................:-) I fully agree with the numbering, as it would make trading more transparent. I myself can't number plants (I think if you are able to sell numbered plants it would mean you collected enough from the wild to exceed your needs as a grower. I have seen enough depleted nepenthes sites to consider this on the borderline of criminal.). On the other hand I started GPS-ing most of the seed I found lately, so the parent sites are known. I will also number plants as they become large enough to sell, and I think this is in accordance with the spirit of the discussion. Take care, Jean-Pierre De Witte mailto:j.dewitte@t-online.de http://www.jeandewitte.de ################### From: "s.p.j. hoogma" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:49:30 +0100 Subject: Email Address Niagara Carnivores Hello Wayne, The adress of Niagara Carnivores must be: ccp@vaxxine.com this is their list: DIONAEA DMU0001G Dionaea muscipula Brunswick Co. NC DROSERA DFI0001G D. filliformis ssp filliformis 'Pine Barrens' DFI0002G D. filliformis ssp filliformis Near Dornoc, Columbus Co. NC DBI0001G D. binata multifida DCA0001G D. capensis (most likely all red form) DRO0001G D. rotundifolia, Huron Co. ON DIN0001G D. intermedia, QC Wild Collected Seed Code Species/Description DARLINGTONIA DAR0001W D. californica, Gasguet Bog, OR PINGUICULA PVU0001W D. vulgaris, Northern Ireland, UK SARRACENIA ALATA SAL0001W S. alata 'black tube pubescent', Stone Co. MS SAL0004W S. alata 'veined', Jackson Co. MS SARRACENIA FLAVA SFL0003W S. flava 'various forms', near Supply, Brunswick Co. NC SFL0004W S. flava var flava, Fall Line Site Near Columbia SC SFL0005W S. flava 'mixed clones', Harleyville SC SFL0006W S. flava var ornata/rugelii, Miramar Beach, Okaloosa Co. FL SFL0007W S. flava var rubricorpora, Near Sumatra, Liberty Co. FL SFL0009W S. flava var rugelii, Liberty Co. FL SFL0010W S. flava var rugelii, Near Homerville, Ware Co. GA SARRACENIA LEUCOPHYLLA SLE0001W S. leucophylla 'very tall plants', Live Oak Creek, Okalossa Co. FL SLE0002W S. leucophylla 'mixed clones', Eglin AFB, Okaloosa Co. FL SLE0004W S. leucophylla Deer Park, Washington Co. AL SLE0005W S. leucophylla 'mixed clones', Avalon Beaches, Santa Rosa Co. FL SLE0006W S. leucophylla 'mixed clones', near Perdido, Baldwin Co. AL SARRACENIA MINOR SMI0001W S. minor, Near Dornoc, Columbus Co. NC SMI0002W S. minor "Okee Giant", Ware Co. GA SARRACENIA PURPUREA SPV0001W S. purpurea ssp venosa, Near Dornoc, Columbus Co. NC SPV0002W S. purpurea ssp venosa, Green Swamp, Brunswick Co. NC SPP0001W S. purpurea ssp purpurea 'veinless', Grey Co. ON SPP0002W S. purpurea ssp purpurea 'marl bog', Bruce Co. ON SPP0003W S. purpurea ssp purpurea 'typical', Wellington Co. ON SPP0004W S. purpurea ssp purpurea 'typical', Huron Co. ON SPP0005W S. purpurea ssp purpurea 'typical', Near Levis. PQ SARRACENIA ROSEA SRO0001W S. rosea, Liberty Co. NC SARRACENIA RUBRA SRR0001W S. rubra ssp rubra, Green Swamp, Brunswick Co. NC SRR0002W S. rubra ssp rubra, near Shallotte, Brunswick Co. NC SRG0001W S. rubra ssp gulfensis, 'mixed red clones', Okaloosa Co. FL SRW0001W S. rubra ssp wherryii, near Deer Park AL SARRACENIA HYBRIDS SYB0001W seed from leuco x alata, near Deer Park, AL greetings, Sipke Hoogma s.p.j.hoogma@hccnet.nl ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:39:02 -0500 Subject: Anyone useing coir for their Nepenthes? Hello, Now that its been on the market for awhile I am wordering if anyone is having success using the coconut husk fiber? I realize Borneo Exotics is using it, but I believe that is the only medium they can regularly obtain. I have heard bad things about Coir here in Florida. Mainly it becomes a soggy-mushy mess and it withholds high amounts of salt from harvest areas these comments come from orchid growers. The price is what still has me interested in Coir, plus it may be a environmental friendly by product. Sincerely, ~ Mike Michael Hunt St. Petersburg Florida USA ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:58:09 +0000 Subject: Re: D.gigantea asexual reproduction? Dick, > >Hi, I have a couple of D. gigantea which are doing fairly well but one of >them has started producing small plants from the leaves! I noticed a few >days ago that there were lots of "insects" on the leaves but failed to look >at them properly. Today I examined them and each leaf has a small plant >growing from the center of the lamina. They look as though they have small >pygmy droseras growing there. Has anybody seen this before, is it common? > A friend was able to collect some D. gigantea seed while in Australia many years ago and after growing the resultant seedlings to maturity found something similar but only with certain clones. These clones would produce small plantlets in the axils between where the leaves or "branches" connected with the main stem. How warm and humid are you keeping your plants? Its possible that a high humidity might cause what you are seeing to happen. The diversity within these plants was amazing, even without the propensity of certain clones to produce these plantlets. Some plants grew tall and leggy, others were much more shrub-like. Other clones produced downward arching "branches" etc., etc. >I shall try and get some of them to grow independently but before I do has >any body had experience of this before and if so, what happened? It is >rather like if I put D. binata leaves in a bag of Sphagnum and they bud off >at the ends. > I believe that if you leave the plantlets they will produce dropper shoots from where they are growing. These will form a tuber when they have penetrated into the soil. It might be worth removing a few of the plantlets as well to see if they will root independently. Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Michael Pagoulatos Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:13:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Collection numbers, CA energy shortage, global warming, and thanks 1. John Green, you write "...Well, for most of us that's exactly what it is: a hobby. I got interested in CPs as a kid because I saw these really cool little plants in the store. In other words - I do it for FUN.". My sentiments exactly. On the other hand, I can see the usefulness of a formal tracking system for those who see growing CPs as more than fun; we fun-growers can benefit from it in the form of say, buying/trading and growing for fun what we thought we were buying/trading! In other words, do it if it serves your purpose. 2. Steve Klitzing, you wrote "...As for the skyrocketing utility prices here in California, heating my greenhouse is making things expensive...' and "...As for our government, well, like government anywhere, we have career politicians who only do what's necessary to appease their constituency...". There is no shakedown to jack the electricity prices up, Steve. California has not built any power stations in at least 15 years, caving under pressure from enviro-wacko organizations. California has been buying power from neighboring States like Oregon which, during a really cold winter may not have excess power to sell! I am sure that the enviro-wackos who may be sitting in the dark and freezing, are warm inside for saving the 5-legged hermaphrodite rat and the flatulence-propellent cockroach! To my many friends and family in CA, force your Congress-critters to obey your will; politicos' first priority is to get re-/elected. 3. Good news!: London Telegraph article, titled "Global warming claims 'based on false data'", http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=001851641145319&rtmo=gjYrrfwu&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/01/1/14/wglob14.html 4. Belated thanks to Bruce Dudley and Micghael catalani for their responses to my "mulching the bogs for winter" post! Take care, Michael Pagoulatos Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ################### From: "Senor Jota" Date: 14 Jan 2001 11:41:36 -0800 Subject: Trip to Malaysia Hello CP List, I've been lurking on the list for several years now, soaking up the discussions and information. I just found out that I will be travelling to peninsular Malaysia for the next month, starting Friday, on a business trip. I'm going to be taking a week off to see the country, and was hoping to see some CP varieties in their natural setting. I will be, for the most part, on the peninsula, but I'm hoping to be able to manage a trip to East Malaysia. I'm fairly familiar with most CP flavors, however I've never seen a Utric in real life. Does anyone have any recommendations on CP sites to visit? The Lonely Planet guide to Malaysia has scant information, I'm currently scouring the web for anything I can find. Please forgive me if there is an obvious source for this information in the posts, I've been off the list for a bit. Thanks in advance for your time, JJ ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:06:55 -0800 Subject: Re: D.gigantea asexual reproduction? > at them properly. Today I examined them and each leaf has a small plant > growing from the center of the lamina. They look as though they have small > pygmy droseras growing there. Has anybody seen this before, is it common? This may be something different, but I bought a baby D. gigantea (with a tiny tuber) from Doug Darnowski a few months back. I planted it in a small pot and put it in a humid terrarium. The original foliage died back (I don't know if the tuber is dead or not), but while one of the stems was leanded over, touching the soil, it seemed to leave a plantlet there. The plantlet does seem to be still alive, so I have good hopes of at least that part living. -Joe ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:10:43 -0200 Subject: Seed bank & Collection numbers Hi John and all, While we're on the subject of collection numbers, accession numbers, etc. I thought it was a bit ironic to see a wrongly spelled plant name pop up in John's e-mail about the seeds Sean donated to the seed bank (the correct spelling of that hybrid is "derbyensis" not "darbyensis"). Here we are proposing a whole new way of recording and keeping track of our CPs, involving many numbers and/or letters, which could be easily tracked through some updatable database available on the web. Nevertheless we can't even seem to keep track of correct spelling for the actual species names, when the answers are all quickly available in the fantastic database Jan put up (http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home). I don't want to sound like a picky taxonomist here, but before we establish anything more complicated for identification of our plants, how about we worry a little more about the correct spelling of scientific names? And it's not just the specific, but also the generic names. One of the most common misspellings occurs with Genlisea. Even in CP books! -- and I admit it makes me wanna scream every time I see "Genlesia" or some variant. OK, I admit I still don't know how to spell Triphyophyllum correctly, for example. But if I have to write the name (like now), I take a few seconds to look it up somewhere. And the best choice is Jan's database. Sorry John, I don't want to make a Judas out of you, it was simply a very opportune example. We see such misspelling all the time on the listserv and on private/commercial plant/ seed lists. Usually we just let it pass and forget it. But when we see it in CP books or in CP societies' newsletters, it really deduces from their credibility in many of our eyes. I think the most blatant example that I know of is the Japanese Carnivorous Plant Society newsletter, where plant names are commonly misspelt. Sorry to those responsible for this newsletter, but I do hope you'll take this as constructive criticism, to be more careful when editing your journal and take the extra time to look up the correct spellings, for your own good. Scientific names are not a cultural or language barrier, they were created so they would always be written the same way and thus avoid confusion. You can pronounce them however you want, and this does vary a lot from place to place. But at least we'll know what you're talking about when it's written correctly. So as a final suggestion to all seed banks and newsletters: use Jan's database as your bible and check everything that comes in. If you're not sure, ask the person who donated the seeds. After all, it's never been easier and faster to check info than it is now with the internet (wish I'd had this back in grade school....). Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:50:48 EST Subject: Borneo Hi All, Greg made an interesting side comment about his upcoming trip to Borneo. Although I dearly love them, all you hear about Borneo is Nepenthes, Nepenthes, Nepenthes. The only exception I know of is D. "sp 8 Borneo" which from what I have last heard, has been reduced to a localed D. spatulata. What other CPs do grow there? So many trips by list members and ICPS members there. Seems like there should be more than Nepenthes. I also have a question about Malaysia. I stayed overnight at the hospital last weekend(nothing serious) and one of the techs noticed my "Borneo Exotics" T-shirt(great shirts, Rob:) and inquired and I told him about my hobby and he said he spent time in Malaysia as a kid and remembered seeing " Venus flytraps" growing in the wild. I told him that it was something else, possibly a sundew, but he seemed quite convinced and described it as interesting how it caught insects. Any speculation of what this might be? I did not think anyone would get a Nepenthes and a flytrap confused. Regards, Joe ################### From: "Tony Camilleri" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:47:16 +0930 Subject: CP book I have received lots of correspondence lately in the difficulty in obtaining my book. The reason being is that it had sold out. However, I am pleased to announce that a reprint is now available and it should once again be easily available. Any inquiries, please do not hesitate to contact me. Tony Camilleri P.S: If anyone would like signed copies. They are available from myself at $33 Australian. Posted anywhere in the world. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Walter Hafner Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:06:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: D. capensis "alba" Hi, > Here is a relatively mundane question about something I am a little > fuzzy on: Is D. capensis"alba" referring to a white- flowered > form(seems like it should) or is it referring to a all green plant? > I have heard both used as descriptions. What I supposedly have is > all-green and I have never had it flower. Don't know, what the name actually refers to, but: I grow D. capensis "alba" for 5-6 years and all of them are pure green and flower pure white. And they are just as weedy as the "regular" D. capensis. Regards. -Walter ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:16:18 +0000 Subject: Yet More Re: Plant numbering Several points: 1. >To make it a little easier I have a suggestion used by our Zoo. If you >have a large collection of various cps it is easier to assign the >numbers in tiers to allow for easier tracking. For example all fo your >pings could be 100-199, the drosera could be 200-299, utrics are >300-399, etc. Of couse you can assign any numbers but this allows a >little bit of easier cataloging and tracking. Help! I want to answer this but I can't (i.e. shouldn't)!!! Surely there's someone out there who can respond and say why new collections might not want to do this. I'm ***not*** criticising what is done at the zoo. Just pointing out there's a reason not to use tiered numbering systems if you start numbering now. The logic of the response includes the idea that an Accession or Collector's number need not ("need" is not the same as "should"!) include any interpretable information (for example, if you collect Sarracenias and red rosetty things, there's no need to prefix the Sarracenia numbers with S and the red rosetty things with RRT, you can number all of them 1,2,3,etc. irrespective of what the plants are, in any order. Surely someone else can extend this?) 2. >this is their list: >DMU0001G Dionaea muscipula Brunswick Co. NC >DFI0001G D. filliformis ssp filliformis 'Pine Barrens' >... In case it's not clear, these are examples of Accession Numbers where the supplier/owner has identified all plants types by their own reference number. They do not appear to be Collector's Numbers as they are not all associated with plants that can readily be identified as having been collected from the wild (as seen in examples I didn't paste in above). This is a good example of a published list where numbers are clear and unique. The format is more complex than most growers need, as a hobby collection can easily use plain number sequences (1,2,3,4, etc.). But formatting is entirely up to the person using the numbers. 3. >My sentiments exactly. On the other hand, I can see the usefulness of >a formal tracking system for those who see growing CPs as more than >fun; we fun-growers can benefit from it in the form of say, >buying/trading and growing for fun what we thought we were >buying/trading! In other words, do it if it serves your purpose. Exactly! 4. >Nevertheless we can't even >seem to keep track of correct spelling for the actual species names, when >the answers are all quickly available in the fantastic database Jan put up It's a valid point that both names and numbers can be mistyped. We each have to be careful when we read and then record a name or number. I've received plants from named locations where the place name is written in a foreign language in handwriting - very difficult to read and check! But numbering will help. If a plant name is accidentally corrupted, anyone can check back to the source if records are kept and eventually, someone will. But worse still. I once received plants with wild place names written on paper labels in ink. The ink had run as the labels got damp in the post. I could read the plant names but all were P. vulgaris. If the plants had had numbers, I might have been able to read enough to write and ask the sender to re-identify the source of each numbered plants. Yes, the ink of the numbers could have run as well, but numbers are usually easier to read than hand written place names, especially if care is taken to write 0 and 6 differently and if 7 is written with a horizontal line through it so it can not be mistaken for 1. (Of cousre, if you type numbers then it should be clear anyway.) Another point out of this comment (indirectly) was to remind all - if you receive a plant, say P. gypsicola, from one person and another P. gypsicola (i.e. the same type of plant) from another person, you should, if keeping good records, assign each a different accession number. This allows you to track each plant back to its separate source. (It allows a lot more as well but 'nuf said on this for now). Spelling plant names correctly is very important but plant names and accession numbers are different and serve different purposes. (A plant can have an accession number before it has a name.) You can share plants as soon as they have accession numbers as you can publish the name once you know it, and remnd people that the name applies to all plants distributed with the accession (or collector's) number of [what ever it was]. 5. >Don't know, what the name actually refers to, but: >I grow D. capensis "alba" for 5-6 years and all of them are pure green >and flower pure white. And they are just as weedy as the "regular" >D. capensis. I'm replying to the original question that resulted in the reply quoted above. If the plants had all had accession and/or Collector's Numbers, this question (the original question, several emails back) could have been answered easily. As it is, none of us (including the person who asked the original question) knows or can easily find out if the plant in question originated from a wild plant, from a cultivated plant or what name these original parent had. If a taxonomist saw the plant in question, it could be re-identified, though I haven't checked Jan's (excellent) database to see if either "alba" or "All Green" are recorded as legitimate taxa or cultivar names. If not, the whole question is fairly spurious as we're trying to tie together plants based on names where such names may not be legitimate! If they're not legitimate, you can't possibly know who is using which name to mean what! However, if plants have Accesion Numbers you can tie the plants together if they originate from a single plant, irrespective of the validity of the plant's name. Just comments. Regards Paul ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:09:40 -0500 Subject: Numbering of plants Hi Paul, I really liked your post about numbering plants. Is there a system for numbering collected seeds from a wild population when the seed from a population are mixed. With Don Schnell's recent proposal for naming flava varieties, I've realized that I sent out mislabelled seeds. I sent a post to the list serve to correct my error now that I understand the difference between rugelii and flava flava and know that cutthroat is not a valid name, to give a couple of examples. A numbering system would have been easier. David Atlanta ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:44:55 -0500 Subject: re: Seed bank & Collection numbers Hey Fernando and everyone, I havent had time to follow this thread but, as far as seed bank misspellings go, I think it's somewhat of a good thing when no other info is provided with donations. Why? Well, I know for a fact that Sean knows how to spell derbyensis and, though he might joke about it, he also knows the correct spelling of petiolaris. But if there is a misspelling in the name of a plant thats distributed to a few people, it would be a good idea to make note of the misspelling. Why? Simply because that's a good way to distinguish that particular plant from others labelled with the correct spelling. And if (Ivan got his hands on it and) that plant turns out to be derbyensis x Dionaea muscipula, at least people can more easily figure out that that is what they have.... :) Wouldn't it be great if every false montana communis, esmeraldae, affinis, etc was misspelled and the misspelling stuck?! then EVERYONE would know to avoid them cause they'd know they'd turn out to be some weed like spatulata... Just a thought. SundewMatt PS to those who are waiting to hear back from me about my latest plant sale, please be patient. This has been a crazy week for me and I will get to it as soon as possible. Hi John and all, While we're on the subject of collection numbers, accession numbers, etc. I thought it was a bit ironic to see a wrongly spelled plant name pop up in John's e-mail about the seeds Sean donated to the seed bank (the correct spelling of that hybrid is "derbyensis" not "darbyensis"). Here we are proposing a whole new way of recording and keeping track of our CPs, involving many numbers and/or letters, which could be easily tracked through some updatable database available on the web. Nevertheless we can't even seem to keep track of correct spelling for the actual species names, when the answers are all quickly available in the fantastic database Jan put up (http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home). I don't want to sound like a picky taxonomist here, but before we establish anything more complicated for identification of our plants, how about we worry a little more about the correct spelling of scientific names? And it's not just the specific, but also the generic names. One of the most common misspellings occurs with Genlisea. Even in CP books! -- and I admit it makes me wanna scream every time I see "Genlesia" or some variant. OK, I admit I still don't know how to spell Triphyophyllum correctly, for example. But if I have to write the name (like now), I take a few seconds to look it up somewhere. And the best choice is Jan's database. Sorry John, I don't want to make a Judas out of you, it was simply a very opportune example. We see such misspelling all the time on the listserv and on private/commercial plant/ seed lists. Usually we just let it pass and forget it. But when we see it in CP books or in CP societies' newsletters, it really deduces from their credibility in many of our eyes. I think the most blatant example that I know of is the Japanese Carnivorous Plant Society newsletter, where plant names are commonly misspelt. Sorry to those responsible for this newsletter, but I do hope you'll take this as constructive criticism, to be more careful when editing your journal and take the extra time to look up the correct spellings, for your own good. Scientific names are not a cultural or language barrier, they were created so they would always be written the same way and thus avoid confusion. You can pronounce them however you want, and this does vary a lot from place to place. But at least we'll know what you're talking about when it's written correctly. So as a final suggestion to all seed banks and newsletters: use Jan's database as your bible and check everything that comes in. If you're not sure, ask the person who donated the seeds. After all, it's never been easier and faster to check info than it is now with the internet (wish I'd had this back in grade school....). Best Wishes, ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:10:47 -0500 Subject: education Not that I'm tired of talking about numbers but I thought I would change the subject and talk about Holly's and her Mom's visit this past Saturday. When I talked to Holly's Mom to give directions, we discovered that she lived just a few blocks away and that Holly attends the elementary school where I put in and maintain a carnivorous plant bog. We had the best time walking around and looking at the bogs. It was great to talk to someone in elementary school who could name the plants in my bogs. I'm so used to Pinguicula and find it difficult to remember that they are butterworts but Holly knew butterworts right off as well as pitcher plants so when we got to the Venus Fly traps, I knew she knew that one. I was impressed again when Holly knew the difference between an American pitcher plant and a tropical pitcher plant. And I introduced her to the scientific names. I was blown away when Holly knew what a Utricularia was and that she had written about them in her report. We talked about the aquatic utric that was growing in an old plastic Sprite bottle, and I showed her a terrestrial utric. We both had a surprise when I held up the potted terrestrial utric and saw the traps that were attached to the roots that had grown into the standing water the pot was sitting in. Yes, an elementary school girl that knows what a Utricularia is is tops in my book. I then handed Holly a Sarracenia leucophylla pitcher that was sliced down the length of the tube. Holly pulled the tube apart to expose the dead bugs and we both observed how the bugs at the bottom of the tube were more decomposed compared to the still discernible moth resting on top of all the partially decomposed bugs. Holly was not squeamish about this. I was quite impressed again. Holly went home with several pitcher tubes, including a phyllodia, a mature S. purpurea, and several Drosera complete with caught insects. Holly had handed in her report but talked about updating it for the science fair to include that Utricularia also grew as terrestrials. I put in several plugs that I would be willing to talk to her Dad about putting a bog in her yard and I would give her more plants come spring. I suppose this is really a challenge to you folks on the list to do something where you live to educate kids about cp's. I'd bet the farm that the elementary school in your neighborhood would love to have a carnivorous plant bog or cp's growing in a sunny windowsill. CP'ers here on the list have been very generous and a couple of years when I started the bog, several people donated plants when I sent out a request so you have a willing storehouse of cp material even if you don't have a lot yourself. I'm always good for a few Sarracenia. David Atlanta ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:12:32 +0000 Subject: "common" names Dear Steven, > I only wish to point out the importance of > including as much information as possible, including common names, to help > everyone share in this subject, without missunderstandings. A plant name you might consider "common" in Florida does not need to be so common or familiar in Tennessee (or even California, Japan, or Angola). So in fact the only really common name from a more general, global perspective (welcome to the INTERnet!) is the scientific, Latin binomial that can be understood (unambiguously; if the ID is correct) by us all. A valid Latin name is traceable information by virtue of the corresponding protologue and type specimen. This is not the case with "common" names. Using vernacular/trivial names does not facilitate anything, it potentially increases confusion. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:44:18 +0000 Subject: correct spelling Dear Fernando, > But if I have to write the name (like now), I take a few seconds to > look it up somewhere. And the best choice is Jan's database. Thank you very much for your enthusiastic appreciation. But nobody is perfect (not even the Index Kewensis, which I consider the largest list of correctly written plant names; it nevertheless includes a few typos). Each time I update the cp database, I find errors, typos, or inconsistencies. Quite a few of them have been pointed at by careful users, and those who made major contributions are acknowledged in the head of the text version of the database. I would like to take this opportunity (again) to invite all users of the cp db to use it carefully. While I hope it is better than any other list of cp names (incl. previous versions of the same db), it definitely can, and if time allows, it will be improved. Your comments and suggestions are welcome. The database is intended to be useful, not dogmatic. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Kamil Pasek" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:29:36 +0100 Subject: ALDROVANDA AND UTRICULARIA SPECIES FOR SALE ALDROVANDA VESICULOSA AND EUROPEAN AQUATIC UTRICULARIA SPECIES FOR SALE Institute of Botany in Trebon, Czech Republic, offers for sale: A) Aldrovanda vesiculosa turions for CP growers, scientific or Nature Conservation organizations, for cultivation or (re)introduction activities. The plants from East Poland are cultivated outdoors. They will be sent by post mail, as turions enclosed in a tiny PE tube, from November to May. A limited amount of turions from NE Romania is also available. Romanian plants are more robust and flower more often. Price: 5 USD (or 10 DEM)/turion + postage 6 USD (or 12 DEM); minimum order: 10 turions; any order over 50 turions: price 3 USD/turion (or 6 DEM). For the cultivation instructions see the paper by L. Adamec (1997): "How to grow Aldrovanda vesiculosa outdoors" in the special issue of CPN 26: 85-88. The instructions may be sent on request. B) Australian (sub)tropical Aldrovanda vesiculosa plants for indoor cultivation. As dependent on light conditions these plants can be red. Plants from an indoor culture of three Australian populations are available (they are the same in culture): a) Subtropical: East-coast Australia, S. of Sydney, NSW; b) Tropical: S. of Darwin, NT. c) Tropical: Kimberley, NW Australia, WA. The Australian plants grow over the whole year at temperatures above 18 oC and do not form turions. At lower temperatures, they form weakly dormant turions. In temperate regions, they may also be grown outdoors over summer season. Apical segments ca. 4 cm long are sent by post mail in plastic vials or tubes, from March to November, when outdoor temperature is above 5 oC. For the cultivation conditions see the paper by L. Adamec (1999): "The biology and cultivation of red Australian Aldrovanda vesiculosa" in CPN 28(4): 128-132. Price: 8 USD (or 16 DEM)/plant + postage 6 USD (or 12 DEM); minimum order (regardless of the populations): 4 plants. C) Turions of European temperate aquatic Utricularia species for outdoor cultivation: U. australis, U. vulgaris, U. minor, U. bremii, U. intermedia, U. ochroleuca. Turions are sent by post mail in tiny PE tubes, from November to June. Price: 2 USD (or 4 DEM)/turion + postage 6 USD (or 12 DM); minimum order (regardless of the species): 10 turions. D) Plants or dormant turions of Utricularia dimorphanta. U. dimorphanta is an aquatic Japanese endemic species, formerly growing on the whole Honshu island (subtropical to warm temperate climate), but is critically endangered recently. Growing of this species is the same as that of Australian Aldrovanda. However, it prefers more shade and temperatures >20 oC. Apical segments ca. 4 cm long or turions are sent by post mail in plastic vials or tubes, at above zero temperatures for the whole year. Price: 8 USD (or 16 DEM)/plant or turion + postage 6 USD (or 12 DEM). Minimum order: 4 plants or turions. Limited amount of this species is available. Invoice will be sent by the Institute of Botany. Payment should be realised as direct sending the due sum in cash, in registered letter to the below address. Checks or cards are not acceptable. Payment in advance, prior to sending the plants is required. Contact address: Lubomir ADAMEC Institute of Botany, Dukelska 135, CZ-379 82 TREBON, Czech Republic tel.+420-333-721156; fax -721136; E-mail adamec@butbn.cas.cz ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:07:32 +0000 Subject: Collection Numbers & Capensis 'Alba' The downside to collection numbers is that they are like 'location names', some people feel obliged to collect them all. And then they have to buy the book that translates the numbers into field locations. Of course, in an ideal world, every plant would come with its complete genome mapping, but that might be a bit long to write on a label! I understand the white-flowered form of capensis was described in the British journal many years ago, and the 'Alba' designation is not valid (although everyone understands it). In my own experience, although the foliage stays green and the flowers stay white, prolonged sunshine can cause the glands to go pinkish. NigelH ################### From: "R B" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:13:22 -0800 Subject: Coming Soon: New CP Bog Garden at Huntington Botanical Gardens At the Los Angles CPS meeting held this past weekend, Leo Song mentioned that a new carnivorous plant bog garden is being setup at the Huntington Botanical Gardens located in San Marino, California. Plants are being donated from the California State University Fullerton collection, and the bog garden desing was done by Leo's wife. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:19:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Drosera capensis "alba" ?? Hey Folks, Not too sound sanctimonious, but.... One reason that the characteristics of the so-called Drosera capensis "alba" may be difficult to figure out is that this is an invalid cultivar name that has never been established or registered. So with no published description, there is no way to tell whether the "alba" designation is intended to describe the flower color, the pale tentacles, or perhaps the color of the roots in cross-section! :) Of course, I am aware that the name is used to describe a plant that has white flowers and very pale tentacles. The correct name for this plant, though, is Drosera capensis 'Albino', as noted in the ICPS cultivar database at: http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home (Just hit the "show only cultivar names" button, and type in Drosera to see what you get) Later! Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "R B" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:34:32 -0800 Subject: CP stamps release date Rumor has it that the new US Carnivorous Plants stamps will be released on August 23, 2001. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:27:34 +1100 Subject: Re: Drosera capensis "alba" ?? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer to this form as 'anthocyanin free' or 'low anthocyanin' D. capensis? Even though my plants get pink glands in the sun, I think this may be due to something else, and the rest of the plant never develops any pink or red coloration. Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:00:34 -0200 Subject: Drosera F2 hybrids To all, John sent me a private mail regarding that petiolaris-complex hybrid he received from Sean which posed a few interesting questions in my mind. I thought it would be interesting to discuss it here. John said Sean's seeds may be an F2 or even F3 cross of those two species (derbyensis X something, I can't remember) and wondered how the offspring would look, how the characters would segregate. A few years back I did a lot of Drosera hybridization, obtaining several fertile crosses. Strangely enough though, I never noticed any segregation among the F2, F3, etc. Weird, isn't it?? I would expect to see something like in Sarracenia where you get the whole spectrum between both parents. Could this be do to the fact that I was crossing tetraploid African Drosera (2n=40)? Since everything was already duplicated, maybe this somehow buffered the segregation effect.... Any ideas?? Now with the petiolaris-complex, I have no idea what happens with F2, F3, etc., since the chromosome numbers are a bit odd in this group. Has anyone noticed segregation of characters in the F2 generation in any of these petiolaris-complex hybrids? Or with any other fertile Drosera hybrid? Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil (and out of the country for 10 days starting Wednesday) ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:32:01 +0930 Subject: Re: Coir for Nepenthes I've used coconut fibre chopped up into small (few cm) lengths, but I mixed it with other ingredients such as peat, fir bark & charcoal. It lightens the potting mix and has lasted at least a year in tropical conditions. I find the chopped fibre is awkward to handle when it's wet, as it tends to clump together. I started using peat bricks a while ago. The label says that they contain coir fibre (which binds the brick). It was only when I looked up a dictionary some time later that I realised that coir is coconut fibre. It's interesting to split open a coconut that's sprouted. Inside is a large seedling virtually sealed in a container of fibre. One day I'd like to try and grow a Nepenthes in a coconut that's had its seedling removed. BTW, can anyone point me to specific growing information on N. ampullaria (eg old digests)? Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:26:10 -0200 Subject: Drosera slander! To Paul and other Drosera-slanderers! >> Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette >>thingies (Drosera) ... >Ah, a like minded soul :-) Hey, hey, hey! Watch how you talk about my children here! Offend my kids and you offend me. Wanna find out how those sissy-stickless yellow Drosera immitators taste the hard way??? HUH???? :):):) Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:29:17 -0200 Subject: Drosera slander! To Paul and other Drosera-slanderers! >> Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette >>thingies (Drosera) ... >Ah, a like minded soul :-) Hey, hey, hey! Watch how you talk about my children here! Offend my kids and you offend me. Wanna find out how those sissy-stickless yellow Drosera immitators (bad ones too) taste the hard way??? HUH???? :):):) Better do a little Drosera sucking-up if you ever want to see those Chilean Pings alive! ;) Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:05:13 +0930 Subject: Mushrooms A few months ago, mushrooms started growing from a pot containing two N. maxima x veitchii (xTiveyi?). I identified the mushrooms as Armillaria mellea, or the Honey Fungus, a widespread parasite (particularly conifers). I transplanted the two plants to separate pots, but they got really spotty and stunted. The larger plant looked so bad, that I transplanted it again this time to a garden bed outside (the soil here's really barren). Both plants are still alive and the one in the ground has grown a couple of new leaves which are small but are free of the brown spots. I mention this because more mushrooms are popping up from a pot containing a Bougainvillea. They're really spectacular and more interesting than the Bougainvillea. If only I could get them growing regularly. I'm sure there would be a market for boutique ornamental fungi. If anyone wanted Armillaria mellea spores, I could probably collect some (only joking). Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:32:35 -0500 Subject: Common names Hello Jan & list I thank you for your welcome for me to the INTERNET. I in no way wish to add to confusion that is already so apparent. I also would like to thank you for all of your enlightening work done to help end confusion on your CP Database. I use it often. In the past year I have discovered an overwhelming number of people who still call a meter tall Nepenthes bicalcarata, a hanging Flytrap. You may or may not care, I am no longer attempting to operate a plant business, that I produced many different types of plants, some CP and some not. When trying to open markets to large retail customers, I was told to name the CP, "Hanging Flytraps" (Nepenthes), "Upright Flytraps" (Sarracenia), and "Venus Flytraps" ( Dionaea, Drosera, Pinguicula, Utricularia, Genlisia). Like it or not, business does play a part in education and education is big business. In any case, I do realize over use of "common names" does confuse matters in the long run. But thank goodness the world is familiar with the "common name" Carnivorous Plants! These plants, and all information about them, would all be very obscure without it. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, Fl USA > Topic No. 5 > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:12:32 +0000 > From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de > To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com > Subject: "common" names > Message-ID: <200101151721.SAA21564@mx03.uni-tuebingen.de> > > > Dear Steven, > > > I only wish to point out the importance of > > including as much information as possible, including common names, to help > > everyone share in this subject, without missunderstandings. > > A plant name you might consider "common" in Florida does not need to > be so common or familiar in Tennessee (or even California, Japan, or > Angola). So in fact the only really common name from a more > general, global perspective (welcome to the INTERnet!) is the > scientific, Latin binomial that can be understood (unambiguously; > if the ID is correct) by us all. A valid Latin name is traceable > information by virtue of the corresponding protologue and type > specimen. This is not the case with "common" names. Using > vernacular/trivial names does not facilitate anything, it > potentially increases confusion. > > Kind regards > Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:20:59 +0000 Subject: correct name for alba Dear Nigel, Thanks, Barry, for your clarification. Just a few further details: > I understand the white-flowered form of capensis was described in the > British journal many years ago, Yes (in 1989), as _Drosera_ ' Albino '. > and the 'Alba' designation is not valid It is not established (cultivar names must be *established* before they can be registered, only taxonomic/Latin names are *validated*) because it is simply not the name published in 1989. The *established*, registered name for the cultivar in question is _Drosera_ ' Albino ' (v.s.). > (although everyone understands it). It depends. Obviously there *is* some confusion (see previous messages on this topic). For _Drosera_ ' Albino ', there is a description and a standard (=prerequisites for registration), so everyone who can read and see should be able to understand what the name means. HINT for the serious grower: register your cultivar names *NOW*! It is easy, it is useful (v.s.), it is about time; for details visit: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cultivars/cult1.html Kind regards Jan ################### From: EdwardK674@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:57:48 EST Subject: Re: numbering system In a message dated 1/16/01 4:23:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: << Help! I want to answer this but I can't (i.e. shouldn't)!!! Surely there's someone out there who can respond and say why new collections might not want to do this. I'm ***not*** criticising what is done at the zoo. Just pointing out there's a reason not to use tiered numbering systems if you start numbering now. The logic of the response includes the idea that an Accession or Collector's number need not ("need" is not the same as "should"!) include any interpretable information (for example, if you collect Sarracenias and red rosetty things, there's no need to prefix the Sarracenia numbers with S and the red rosetty things with RRT, you can number all of them 1,2,3,etc. irrespective of what the plants are, in any order. Surely someone else can extend this? >> There is a reason but it is really only valid in large collections. The reason is that if you have tiered system (for example here the amphibians are 400000-499999 while the reptiles are 300000-399999) and you need to find your hard copy of the information regarding that accession number. It makes it a lot easier to track the information down as opposed to a nontiered system. Each different plant line (or if you want each different plant) could be assigned a different number to make tracking easier, it would just depend on how much you wan to track each individual plant. As I pointed out this is really only valid in a large collection. Ed ################### From: "Steve Klitzing" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:31:01 -0800 Subject: Bubble wrap inside glass greenhouse Hi all: I just installed bubble wrap inside my glass greenhouse. The greenhouse is now keeping its heat. Cost was $67 for a 12' by 16' greenhouse. All you have to do is tape it to the frame with clear packing tape. The bubble wrap provides excellent insulation, and is a nearly no-cost alternative to expensive twin wall polycarbonate. At this cost, you can buy new bubble wrap every year. Or, if you're careful, you can take down the bubble wrap in the spring and store it for next winter. ---Steve Klitzing _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:34:17 EST Subject: Re: Common names Hi All, Thank you Steven for you comments on "hanging flytraps." That probably answers the question I asked yesterday(?) on how someone would insist he saw Venus flytraps in the wild in Malaysia back in the 70s. I was underestimating the potential for generalization geared towards the non-CPer. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "R B" Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:42:43 -0800 Subject: Re: Bubble wrap inside glass greenhouse >At this cost, you can buy new bubble wrap every year. Or, if you're >careful, you can take down the bubble wrap in the spring and store it for >next winter. Why take it down at all? It is for insulation, correct? Won't it help keep the greenhouse cooler in the summer if you keep it in place? Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: john green Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 12:38:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: More Re: Collection numbers Ouch! First of all, sorry about my posting last week. After I sent it I realized that I probably could have been a little more diplomatic than I was. E peco desculpas Fernando, if I misconstrued your comments. Like I said, I had accidentally deleted the e-mail and was going from memory and must have pulled the "lazy" bit from another message. Secondly, I now see the purpose and usefulness of a tracking system. I misunderstood it to be a formal system regulated by some central authority (not that I'm opposed to central authorities!). I completely agree that location data needs to be collected and shared with anyone receiving the seed - which I already abide by. My collection isn't big enough and I don't do enough trading/selling that I'd create a formal system, but then, that's probably just my laziness showing through ;-). John Green - still a kid at 33 Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: "Tony Camilleri" Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:00:13 +0930 Subject: Looking for Doug Darnowski Could anybody provide me with Doug Darnowski's current email ? Regards Tony Camilleri [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:44:52 +0000 Subject: And still more Re Numbering ("Won't he ever tire" - I hear you say) :-) > I really liked your post about numbering plants. Thank you! > Is there a system for > numbering collected seeds from a wild population when the seed from a > population are mixed. Ugh! You are stretching my knowledge to breaking point and I hope a professional taxonomist with field collection experience will step in any answer the question (hint hint)! Meanwhile, my view is as follows. Logic dictates that the seed should not in fact be collected as a mixture if it can be avoided. But if we assume it is, we should also assume some effort is taken to collect seed from what appears to be a single type of plant (i.e. one species). Then the seed is given a single Collector's Number and distributed with that number. If it later transpires that two species were mixed together, at least the attached Collector's Number will aloow both species to be traced back to their original point of origin in the wild. As a mixed collection (i.e. different seed in a single packet) is far from what would be expoected of a feld botasnist, I suspect there are no published "rules" for dealing with it. It might therefore be inappropriate to start separating out the seeds and try to package them separately, but where the seed looks different this might also be a way of proceeding as long as each packet is labelled with a Collector's Number and as long as each Collector's Number relates to well kept data. But I repeat, I'd like a taxonomist with field collection experience to comment too. > Wouldn't it be great if every false montana communis, esmeraldae, affinis, > etc was misspelled and the misspelling stuck?! then EVERYONE would know to > avoid them cause they'd know they'd turn out to be some weed like > spatulata... Nice idea - but all you'd end up with are lots of different plants sharing the same incorrect name. Only plant numbering (Collection Numbers and Accession Numbers) will ever resolve this, which is exactly why they were devised. > I don't want to sound like a picky taxonomist here, but before > we establish anything more complicated for identification of our plants, how > about we worry a little more about the correct spelling of scientific names? Perfectly valid point, but a different subject. > The downside to collection numbers is that they are like 'location > names', some people feel obliged to collect them all. Agreed. But then that is the fault of the person electing to do so. I realise that some people collect in order to attempt to have the longest list, somehow thinking that this equates to the best or most important collection. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder so a long list to some may simply be a bad list to others. (e.g. a Pinguicula list containing just 20 different types of P. moranensis may be 20 different plants to one collector but just one plant to another). I certainly hope we don't avoid numbering just because a few people might feel obliged to collect them! > I understand the white-flowered form of capensis was described in the > British journal many years ago, and the 'Alba' designation is not > valid (although everyone understands it). Oh no they don't! I say again, how can anyonme understand what is undefined? There is no published definition for what is meant by D. capensis 'Alba'. If there was, it would be an established name. As it is not published, be definition no-one has ever described what is meant by it. So anyone can assume they know what is meant, but no-one, not even a single person, actually knows what is meant by D. capensis 'Alba' unless they personally attach the name to a plant that arrives without such a name. And if they do attach the name themselves, they can not possibly be doing so based on another plant they know of called D. capensis 'Alba' because they can not know what features that other plant has that are specifically identified by the unestablished name of D. capensis 'Alba'. (Sorry Nigel - not having a go at you - you know me enough to know that.) > Of course, I am aware that the name is used to describe a plant that has > white flowers and very pale tentacles. The correct name for this plant, > though, is Drosera capensis 'Albino', as noted in the ICPS cultivar > database at: > http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home > However, no-one has yet pinted out, so I will, that it would be entirely incorect for everyone to now pull out their D. capensis "Alba" (or is it "alba") labels and replace them with D. capensis 'Albino' labels. This can only be done correctly if people first read the description of D. capensis 'Albino'. They would then have to compare their plants labelled D. capensis "Alba" (or "alba"). Only if their plants met the description of D. capensis 'Albino' could they then replace the labels. In fact, it's my belief that without taking the trouble to identify the plant, collectors would be doing us a favour if they maintained their D. capensis "Alba" (or "alba") labels so as not to further muddle us all by distributing plants mis-identified as D. capensis 'Albino' without the benefit of any process of identification. > Wouldn't it be more appropriate to refer to this form as 'anthocyanin free' No because the apostrophes written as you have indicate that the name is intended to represent a cultivar and no such cultivar is registered. There are rules on what names may or may not be used as cultivar names but as long as one obeys a rule, the rules do not include definition of what is more appropriate. Thus, if a plant is very red, a cultivar name of "Brown" can legitimately be applied (I think!) even though, if colour is indicated, it's clearly inappropriate (unless you're colour blind). > or 'low anthocyanin' D. capensis? No because you can't place a cultivar name before the Latin name. If you reverse the order, the previous reposne (previous paragraph) applies! > >> Of course, if we are talking about those small, flat, and red rosette > >>thingies (Drosera) ... > > >Ah, a like minded soul :-) > > Hey, hey, hey! Watch how you talk about my children here! Offend > my kids and you offend me. Wanna find out how those sissy-stickless yellow > Drosera immitators taste the hard way??? HUH???? :):):) Promises promises! >>Just pointing out there's a reason not to use tiered numbering systems >>if you start numbering now. The logic of the response includes the >>idea that an Accession or Collector's number need not ("need" is not >>the same as "should"!) include any interpretable information (for >>example, if you collect Sarracenias and red rosetty things, there's no >>need to prefix the Sarracenia numbers with S and the red rosetty >>things with RRT, you can number all of them 1,2,3,etc. irrespective >>of what the plants are, in any order. >The reason is that if you have tiered system (for example here the >amphibians are 400000-499999 while the reptiles are 300000-399999) and >you need to find your hard copy of the information regarding that >accession number. It makes it a lot easier to track the information >down as opposed to a nontiered system. Each different plant line (or >if you want each different plant) could be assigned a different number >to make tracking easier, it would just depend on how much you wan to >track each individual plant. As I pointed out this is really only >valid in a large collection. Oh ok, since no-one stepped in. (Now where did I put my safety net?) I understand the benefits the zoo gets from treating the data in this way. However, for someone starting a ***new*** recording system I would still recommend a non-tiered system. If a pen and paper system is being used, a large collection would become unweildy. If a computer system is being used, the system itslef should manage all groupings for the user such that there is no need at all to worry about two related members of the collection (accessions) having similar or related numbers. So, to put it in CP trms, suppose you have 100,000 specimens that are each different by way of name, cultivar or wild source location, i.e. 100,000 different specimens. Let's suppose there are equally numbers of Sarracenia, Nepenthes, Pinguicula and Drosera and that you have less than 10,000 of each. You could have all Pings as 10000 - 19999, Neps as 20000-29999, Sarras as 30000-39999 and Dros (pertinent acronym?) 40000-41000. This in theory makes it easy to search within a group. But any good software would easily know which records related to Drosera even if the numbering of Drosera specimens was completely random. However, note this only applies to new attempts to start a numbering system. I would not recommend that an existing large collection be renumbered randomly to replace an existing tiered system. Cheers Paul ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:17:53 -0800 Subject: re: Drosera F2 Hybrids >Now with the petiolaris-complex, I have no idea what happens >with F2, F3, etc., since the chromosome numbers are a bit odd in this group. >Has anyone noticed segregation of characters in the F2 generation in any of >these petiolaris-complex hybrids? Or with any other fertile Drosera hybrid? >Best Wishes, >Fernando Rivadavia >Sao Paulo, Brazil Hi Fernando and all, I have done alot of hybridizing though most crosses I have made are not fertile, still, I think I have it figured out. The traits of leaf shape are not strict Mendelian traits as flower color often is, and so you do not see predictable dominant and recessive segregation ratios. I guess this is because the traits of leaf shape are the expression of multiple genes. Mendelian traits are single gene. Crosses I have made in some South African sundews (which proved to be fertile) and also with my fertile polyploid D. x nagamotoi, I saw variation which might be of the same pattern as with the petiolaris complex hybrids. In the first generation most of the hybrids were about equally intermediate between the two parent species. The second generation selfed offspring were much like their parent though some varied a bit to appear like one or the other parent species. Following generations when selected for a specific appearance became less and less varied. My D. x nagamotoi now in its fifth generation seems to have stabilized. Above I said that the hybrids are about equally intermediate. This means that an averaging formula can be used to predict what most of the hybrids will look like. Take for example my D. dielsiana X D. nidiformis. The D. nidiformis parent has longer more slender leaves than D. dielsiana. The average of leaf length and width can be found this way. Measure the lengths and add them together and then divid them by 2: L1 + L2 / 2 = L3. The length L3 is the hybrid, simple:-) On this note, Petiolaris Sean's computer is still down. BTW, Sean does know the correct spelling of D. derbyensis and also I'm sure he realizes this plant originated in Derby, NT Australia. I'm on to him, ...he uses these tricks to test our humour. Sorry to let the cat out of the bag:-) Ivan the "Professor" Hermosa Beach California ################### From: JDPDX@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:06:08 EST Subject: Re: Bubble Wrap << At this cost, you can buy new bubble wrap every year. >> Charleys Greenhouse (www.charleysgreenhouse.com) out of Mt. Vernon, Washington sells a UV resistant bubblewrap if you don't want to replace it every year. Jeff Portland, OR ################### From: wouter Noordeloos Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:18:26 +0100 Subject: Duncraig hi CP-ers, Here Wouter Noordeloos from Carnivora, Holland. I ordered 5 books from Allen Lowrie vol. 3. I need to know where Duncraig is laying about. I need this, because my postoffice is sendind the money for the order to the nearest postoffice from Duncraig. Can anyone tell me, please? Thanx and take care, Wouter ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:46:40 +1100 Subject: D. sessiliflora??? and aquatic Utrics. Hi all I ahve a plant named D. sessiliflora and as far as I know this thing does not exist or does it?? It is a rosetted species simmilar to D. aliciae. Any ideas? I think it was Barry who said that it is better to keep a plant with the wrong spelling rather than change it and lose track of where it came from (or something like that) One more while I'm here. I've noticed free floating aquatic Utrics eg. gibba, australis, vulgaris catching mosquito larvae by the head! They get stuck half in, half out of the trap. I've not had the patience to sit and watch to see what happens. Can anyone fill me in please. Thanks Greg ################### From: "Steve Alton" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:21:42 -0000 Subject: Numbering - seed collections Dear Paul and All, > Ugh! You are stretching my knowledge to breaking point and I hope a > professional taxonomist with field collection experience will step in any > answer the question (hint hint)! Well, I'm not a taxonomist, but I am a seed collector, so here goes... Usual practice is to select a large population of a single species and to collect 'randomly and evenly' (this is actually a contradiction, but never mind) across the whole of that population, in order to pick up any genetic variation at that site. In the case of extremely rare species, seed from individual plants is bagged separately, to preserve individual gene-lines, but generally seed from a single species/site will be lumped. Each seed collection (at the Millennium Seed Bank, at any rate) will then be assigned a unique accession number on our database, which refers to that collection and its accompanying field data. So, one accession = one species from a named site, collected on a specified date, by a named collector. If seed from individual plants is collected separately (see above) all the seed-lots will be given the same accession number, but will be stored as separate lots, ie. never lumped together. Hope this helps, Steve MILLENNIUM SEED BANK Project Steve Alton B.Sc. Seed Donations Officer Seed Conservation Department Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew Wakehurst Place, Ardingly, Haywards Heath West Sussex RH17 6TN, UK Tel direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894119 Fax direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894110 Email: s.alton@rbgkew.org.uk http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/seedbank/msb.html ################### From: Vitor Fernandes Oliveira de Miranda Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:16:40 -0200 Subject: more about collection numbers... First of all I'd like to congratulate for all of you that has discussing about this so important subject, a way of improve and organize the so confuse cp lists (sorry, with no offenses, I regard here my cp collection list as well, it is not hard I loose myself in it... ;-) ). Congratulations for you Paul for beginnig this so important discussion. It has a lot of time I do not see a so flamed discussion! I numbering system may improve a lot our cp collections. Not only by scientific point of view, but to growers that regard the collection as a hobby, otherwise it was said. Nigel wrote: > The downside to collection numbers is that they are like 'location > names', some people feel obliged to collect them all. And then they > have to buy the book that translates the numbers into field locations. > Of course, in an ideal world, every plant would come with its complete > genome mapping, but that might be a bit long to write on a label! Ok, Nigel, I think I understood your point of view. But, I think we have to regard ALL information about our "red rosette things" (I am sorry, could not avoid the joke, but I'd never seen a so negligible definition... :)) ). Any kind of information can be useful, mainly if the plants are beeing used to studies. Regarding your comment about buing the book that translates the numbers into your means (field locations, collectors, collection date, etc...), a way to avoid it may be publishing the original numbers list on internet, who knows at ICPS site or even at CP Database site (what's your opinion Jan? ). So, all people could have access to the list, and, what I regard very important, a "universal" list. The point is everybody should follow the same list, this is very important. I've had some problems in my collections. I've received some seeds with no locations. I have used them to my study, but I know I will face problems in future. I try to choose that ones with the maximum of informations, but sometimes the only information is the species name, sometimes misspelled... Well, I agree Jan, it may happen with all us, besides you Fernando! :-) :-) A important point is a numbering system could be the chance for the plants be used to genetic studies. For instance, _Drosera brevifolia_ from North America, definitely, is not the same _Drosera brevifolia_ that occurs on Brazil's fields. Two populations of a same species separated by even few kilometers may be very different genetically. To people that consider the possibility of a more serious organization of our collections could loose the "fun side" of having a collection, I don't think it's the case. A more organized system does not mean a more complicated one. Otherwise it could facilitate our lives, tracking a mis-ID species that we may have in our collection, even after a long time. So, as it was already commented, that number (that species) will be avoided for all us after the notice. Well, just some ideas. All of us will gain with the benifits of a numbering system, no doubts. I think we have to discuss about it a lot yet. All the best Vitor. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Steve Gordon" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:39:58 -0000 Subject: Re: Capensis 'Alba' >Oh no they don't! I say again, how can anyonme understand what is undefined? >There is no published definition for what is meant by D. capensis 'Alba'. If there >was, it would be an established name. As it is not published, be definition no-one >has ever described what is meant by it. So anyone can assume they know >what is meant, but no-one, not even a single person, actually knows what is meant >by D. capensis 'Alba' Hi Paul. Does Marston Exotics 'Catalogue and Growers Guide' qualify :-) I quote: 'Drosera capensis 'Alba'. A new introduction found in a batch of seedlings at Marston in 1990. Vigorous grower with striking pale leaves and white flowers in profusion' http://www.steve-gordon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DA.htm Paul Gardener told me he 'found' the above-mentioned plant, and sold it as such. If he failed to take it any further than this, perhaps that is where the confusion arose. Cheers. Steve. UK. ################### From: john green Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:37:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Capensis 'Alba' >>Oh no they don't! I say again, how can anyonme understand >>what is undefined? There is no published definition for what >>is meant by D. capensis 'Alba'. If there was, it would be an >>established name. As it is not published, be definition no- >>one has ever described what is meant by it. > > Does Marston Exotics 'Catalogue and Growers Guide' qualify > :-) I quote: 'Drosera capensis 'Alba'. A new > introduction found in a batch of seedlings at Marston in > 1990. Vigorous grower with > striking pale leaves and white flowers in profusion' > http://www.steve-gordon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DA.htm I've already passed this information on to Barry but it is published in "The Savage Garden" on pages 128 and 129 as D. capensis "Alba" (with double "quotes"). There is some question as to whether it is listed as a form or a variety, but I guess Jan Schlauer will sort it out. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah, USA http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: "John Phillip Jr." Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 04:50:34 -0500 Subject: where is the listeserve?? hello! I haven't gotten a listserve post sent to me since Sunday is something wrong?:? John Phillip, Jr ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:59:30 +0000 Subject: And still more Re Numbering > > I understand the white-flowered form of capensis was described in the > > British journal many years ago, and the 'Alba' designation is not > > valid (although everyone understands it). > > Oh no they don't! I say again, how can anyonme understand what is undefined? There is no published definition for what is meant by D. capensis 'Alba'. If there was, it would be an established name. As it is not published, be definition no-one has ever described what is meant by it. So anyone can assume they know > what is meant, but no-one, not even a single person, actually knows what is meant by D. capensis 'Alba' unless they personally attach the name to a plant that arrives without such a name. And if they do attach the name themselves, they can not possibly be doing so based on another plant they know of called D. capensis > 'Alba' because they can not know what features that other plant has that are specifically identified by the unestablished name of D. capensis 'Alba'. (Sorry Nigel - not having a go at you - you know me enough to know that.) My mistake - others have also pointed out the same. I hope I have journals back that far. Recently I've received two batches of pygmy drosera gemmae which have turned out to be mixtures - D androsacea plus a few, far more vigorous D paleacea, and D echinoblastus, large-flowered, which included one plant (sadly deceased) with white flowers. I guess I ought to give each gemma an individual accession number. Ouch! Regards, NigelH ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:07:12 +0000 Subject: re: Drosera F2 Hybrids > The D. nidiformis parent has longer more slender leaves than D. > dielsiana. The average of leaf length and width can be found this way. > Measure the lengths and add them together and then divid them by 2: L1 > + L2 / 2 = L3. The length L3 is the hybrid, simple:-) I'm quibbling about a millimetre or two here, but it seems to me easier for a large plant to lose a certain length from its leaves than it is for a small plant to gain the same length. Is it possible that where inheritance is Mendelian, the offspring has average leaf length based on the geometric mean of its parents? (If this is basic biology and I ought to know better, don't hesitate to tell me). NigelH ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:14:36 +1100 Subject: Re: D. sessiliflora??? and aquatic Utrics. Greg, I've heard of D. sessilifolia, which is supposed to be a synonym of D. burmannii. Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: "R B" Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:39:36 -0800 Subject: Looking for Lowrie's book - volume 1 I know this is a longshot, but I thought I would give it a try. Does any have Lowrie's book "Carnivorous Plants of Australia, Vol 1" available for sale? I have volumes 2 and 3, and want to complete the set. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:59:55 EST Subject: Re: D. sessiliflora??? and aquatic Utrics. Hi All, Yes, the old D. aliciae instead of D. sessilifolia trick. I had some of that once. I figured it out after having it three years that it could not possibly be real thing. For some reason, this is the most popular seed to be mislabled as such. D. sessilifolia( I am responding from work, so if I mispell it, forgive me) is an annual from South America and looks rather similar ro D. burmanii and there has even been a cross of the two made by Ivan Snyder, I believe. They are very closely related, but I have not heard of them being synanomous. As far as Utricularia and large prey, I think I have read that the bladder will keep digesting and sucking the larva in until it's consumed(or will attempt to, at least). Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Fernando Rivadavia Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:03:35 -0200 (BRST) Subject: F2, F3, etc. Drosera hybrids Hello Ivan! >I have done alot of hybridizing though most crosses I have made are not >fertile, still, I think I have it figured out. The traits of leaf shape >are not strict Mendelian traits as flower color often is, and so you do >not see predictable dominant and recessive segregation ratios. I guess >this is because the traits of leaf shape are the expression of multiple >genes. Mendelian traits are single gene. I'm sure it's not a simple mendellian cross with one gene involved. Just as it's most likely not simple eithr with Sarracenia or Neps. Yet it seems to me that we see more variability and wider distribution of characters in F2 crosses of Neps and Sarras than in Drosera. Don't you agree?? That's why I suggested that maybe tetraploidy in the African species was helping to "mask" or even out this distribution of characters. And that's why I asked about petiolaris complex F", F3, and so on hybrids, because of their strange chromosome numbers. Any more input on the latter??? Fernando Rivadavia ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:12:21 -0500 Subject: subscribe Michael Manna





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################### From: "philmann" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:52:04 +0800 Subject: Aldrovanda, a new site. Greetings. For those of you who (foolishly) don't subscribe to the ACPS, I would like to share with you the great news that Robert Gibson in his diligent wanderings through the CP world has discovered Aldrovanda growing on the South Coast here in Western Australia. This plant appears to be very similar in the Australian form attaining a wonderful red colour. This site puts it some 2,000kms south of the other known Western Australian location. I put some pieces in the pond of the Nepenthes house and these promptly disappeared. The remainder I placed in one of my tropical aquariums and in a couple of months it has multiped ten fold, but lacks the red colour. Well done Robert. The CP world needs more of your expertise applied here. Cheers Phill Mann Harvey W.A. ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:58:18 +0000 Subject: numbers and alba Dear Vitor >(...), a way to avoid it may be publishing the original > numbers list on internet, who knows at ICPS site or even at CP > Database site (what's your opinion Jan? ). There is, as far as I understand the ongoing discussion correctly, no defined set of data that should "at least" be linked to collection numbers. This makes identification of the taxa corresponding to collection numbers impossible once the plants are no longer available (things that may happen in cultivation!). If collection numbers were backed up by e.g. herbarium specimens, there might be a way to link them with taxonomic data as listed in the cp db. Anyway, this would be an enormous task, and I have other interests at the moment, viz. providing a mapping function with the database browser and including systematic information for more sophisticated searches and statistics. Dear Steve, > Does Marston Exotics 'Catalogue and Growers Guide' qualify :-) Was it ever published? I do not know this guide. > I quote: > 'Drosera capensis 'Alba'. A new > introduction found in a batch of seedlings at Marston in 1990. Vigorous > grower with > striking pale leaves and white flowers in profusion' > http://www.steve-gordon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DA.htm > Paul Gardener told me he 'found' the above-mentioned plant, and sold it as > such. If he failed to take it any further than this, perhaps that is where > the confusion arose. Certainly. Anyway, a complicated case. I have seen the epithet "alba" first in Peter D'Amato's book. But it seems he has only cited Paul Gardner. In its Latin form, "Alba" is clearly inappropriate for a cultivar epithet (which must be from a modern language). Additionally, it would probably be difficult to distinguish such plants from the described cultivar _Drosera_ ' Albino '. Anyway, it is (without a typification and without a Latin description) only a nomen nudum without any nomenclatural meaning. Dear John, > I've already passed this information on to Barry but it is published in "The > Savage Garden" on pages 128 and 129 as D. capensis "Alba" (with double > "quotes"). There is some question as to whether it is listed as a form or a > variety, but I guess Jan Schlauer will sort it out. Because of its Latin origin, it is not a cultivar name (the quotes are immaterial). It is a nomen nudum (i.e. its rank is undefined, anyway). If the rank is not noted in the original publication, such combinations are usually interpreted (at least in the cp db) as varieties. Kind regards Jan ################### From: chamb@u.arizona.edu Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:37:54 Subject: Re: more about collection numbers... I've been watching the thread on collection numbers, and noticed that cacti people were cited as having a good number system. since I'm more of a cactus person than a cp person anyway, I feel some obligation to introduce you all to some resources available for cactus collection numbers (if you're really that interested :-) This is a web page for one of the cactus & succulent nurseries that sells a lot of seed and plants with collection numbers and locality info. See: http://www.mesagarden.com/ra2001.html Scroll down to "Copiapoa". Numbers on the left are assigned by the nursery and could be considered their own accession numbers. I don't think cactus collectors prize these numbers, undoubtedly some do record them. But see those KK numbers, like KK1386? Those are the numbers that cactus collectors covet. What do these numbers mean? Go to this site: http://ralph.cs.cf.ac.uk/cacti/collector.html This is a web site for collector acronyms. Enter KK and it tells you this is Karel Knize, of the Czech Republic, resident in Lima, Peru. Some early collections were made under KZ numbers, but these are independent and do not coincide with the later KK numbers. Knize has produced two official indexes of his numbers. The 1967-1977 one covers the numbers KK 1 - KK 1471; the later 1967-1987 index covers KK 1 - KK 2000. These lists do not always agree entirely. Most collectors do not have such detailed info, but Knize was one of the most prolific collectors. Now try: http://ralph.cs.cf.ac.uk:591/fieldno.html This is a web site for locality data. Try KK1386. Your results: Field number: KK1386 Collector: Karel Knize Species: Copiapoa sp. Locality: El Tigrillo, Chile 100-400m Notes: (C. coquimbana v. deminuta n. n. in 1977 list) You get back some locality info and also an annotation of the current identification of this plant originally listed as a "sp.". Again, this level of information is not present for all collectors, but special attention has been paid to Knize. This locality information was previously found only in some very obscure cactus publications (ie. "The Chileans"), or on some lists with limited circulation. A few dedicated cactus enthusiasts compiled this info and made it available on the web, so you can get this data for that plant you have with the mysterious KK1386 number on the label. As a caveat, I must point out that there is no guarantee about the pedigree of your plants, which have been maintained and seed propagated in cultivation for several decades now. You may collect seed from your KK1386 Copiapoa, but what plant was the father of that seed? How careful was the last grower? (cacti are mostly obligate outcrossers). Interestingly, there are few cultivars in the cactus hobby (outside of the epiphytic cacti), and in practical use the plants bearing these collection numbers are treated as cultivars. Michael Chamberland ################### From: Rollins Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:42:13 -0500 Subject: Sarracenia seed dispersal Does anyone know how the seed of Sarracenia are dispersed in the wild? They aren't wind blown so there must be some sort of animal vector. Hope someone knows. Thanks, James A. Rollins [mailto:willows@rose.net] ################### From: Randall Palmer Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:20:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: About the number thing 10 could be Venus, 20 could be trumphet, 30 could be picture. A cross between trumphet and picture could be 250. Cousin Clem ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:27:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chris Breckpot Hey folks, Does anyone have an email address for Chris Breckpot? The one that I have, chris.breckpot@olvz.aalst.be is dead. Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:42:29 -0000 Subject: Re: D capensis "Alba" No numbers here! Just to acknowledge the replies following my being asked if Marston's catalogue mention of the name counts as establishing the name. As someone answered, I'd prefer to leave that decision to Jan who is the (undisputed?) expert. I don't track cultivar publication and relied on someone else's statement that D. capensis "Alba" had not been established as a name. Now that Jan has no doubt seen the references, I'm sure he'll update the database if required. As a separate point of personal interest - I'm not actually sure what to expect if a cultivar name is "published" but is not considerd established, for example because the name already exists in that genus or because insufficient description is given to allow association of the name with some known appearance or because the description given in no way allows the cultivar to be distinguished from another previously described cultivar. Is the name ignored? Is it recorded as an equivalent of an invlaid name? Is such a name barred from future use as it's use has been inappropriate? Beats me! As to me and naming, I'm dead careful ever since I foolishly believed a list (Harald Weiner's catalogue) that called a plant he was introducing to cultivation Pinguicula alfredae. The plant is of course P. heterophylla and publication ofa species name in a list is not valid so doesn't count (unlike cultivars). Since I published the P. alfedae species name in a book, I of course get credited with making the first formal publication of the name, and i therefore get credited with making the error!!! May the next plant name I mention be more rigorously researched before I publish!!! Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:48:14 +0000 Subject: Re: Sarracenia seed dispersal James, > >Does anyone know how the seed of Sarracenia are dispersed in the wild? >They aren't wind blown so there must be some sort of animal vector. >Hope someone knows. Thanks, >James A. Rollins > There was someone doing research on this subject in Canada but I can't remember his name and I've no idea if he eventually published any results. Not a great deal of use I'm afraid but one of his and my thoughts was that one means of seed dispersal is during periods of flooding - Sarracenia seed floats of course. Seed in habitat that is liable to flood will likely be dispersed while the area is in flood, the seed being deposited when the waters recede. This means of seed dispersal would not surprise me at all, at least in the northern bogs, which are very prone to this type of flooding. There are weaknesses in this idea though. For a start there are many sites in the south that are probably far less likely to flood, though having never visited any of them in the winter this may be an incorrect assumption. Also, the flood dispersal argument does not explain the wider range of Sarracenia species, with pockets of habitat surrounded by areas of unsuitable land. Probably there is some sort of animal or bird involvement in the seed dispersal as well. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:07:31 +1100 Subject: Re: D. sessiliflora Sorry Miguel and Joe, you said D. sessilifolia but I was asking about sessiliflora. The plant I have is not sessilifolia. It is not an annual that's for sure. I think I'd better leave it until I get a web page up and running so I can show you photos. Thanks anyway. Thanks for the info on the Utric. Joe. Greg ################### From: Akerne Orchids Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 17:55:35 +0100 Subject: Re: And still more Re Numbering I'll just add a bit more to the numbering discussion form a horticultural point of view albeit not in CP's, but orchids... As the orchid collection of my parents grew and grew over the years and with the start of our own propagation laboratory we needed to change our way of dealing with our plants. Just as a sidenote: 99.9% all crosses that we make our between plants of the same species. The early crosses when I stepped in as "bumblebee of the greenhouse" were simply recorded using whichever indication that we had available: country of origin, flower colour, position in the greenhouse, ... e.g. "species x" (dark) x "species x" (big flower) "species y" (cool house) x "species y" (intermediate house) "species z" -Honduras- x "species z" -Mexico- I'm sure you can spot some problems with these indications. - we received another dark flowered "species x" - we have multiple clones of "species y" in the cool house - we have multiple clones of "species z" from Mexico So we needed a better solution ! 1st try -> lets number each clone within a specific genus/species combination sequentially. e.g. "species x" (1), "species x" (2), "species x" (3) Problems with this approach: the biggest problem is very simple, after flowering the "species x" (2) is no longer "species x" but "species a". So you cannot trace the complete history of your plant throughout the years, unless you copy/paste all relevant data and keep track of each and every change -> at that point your plant has multiple IDs, which is not good at all. 2nd try (and this is where we are know) -> number each clone and give it a unique sequential number. This number is simply composed of the following: "letter indication" + a seperation dash + "a 5 digit number". e.g. [AO-01000] [AO-05426] [AO-08912] This approach allows us to track down a plant throughout the collection without problems (only collection plants are numbered of course). The [AO-01000] will tell you nothing about the genus/species it belongs to (as misidentifications happen), but it allows you to trace all information belonging to that plant and only THAT plant. What does the "silly" letter combination stand for ? AO = Akerne Orchids Why the need for a 5 digit number ? When we started registering the collection in this way, we figured we had some 8000 plants/clones so it was not unlikely that in a few years time we would cross the 10000 mark. 99999 on the other hand is something that we will never reach (unless we expand enormously... who knows ?) The dash in between is just for easy reading. Basic rules: - no number is ever re-used even if the clone is question dies (very important !) - use a fixed length numbering system. if a friend comes round and says that his [AO-168] has flowered and that it was not correct, then we can tell him that his reference is not correct... It should be something like [AO-99999]. Advantages: - when you exchange divisions of a specific clone, your friends can always trace it back to you because it is numbered - because the numer is unique, we are always talking about the same clone Disdvantages: - no direct link to the genus/species combination in question, but for orchids this is not bad, even an advantage: today its an Oncidium something, tomorrow we should call it Psygmorchis something else, and so on. I don't know about other plant families, but some orchids have a habit of changing names every now and then. Why not tiered (like 10000 -> 19999, 20000 -> 29999, ...) ? - a plant number 10000 al of a sudden turns out to belong to the 20000+ range. This problem is less likely to happen within the CP area, a Drosera is quite distinct from a Sarracenia, but other plant families are not always that clearly distinguished. From time to time unidentified species will enter our collection. All we know at that point is that it is "an orchid". Defining the genus is often troublesome with some 30000+ species around. - some genera are monotypic, but then again a new species for that genus maybe still be discovered... > Is there a system for > numbering collected seeds from a wild population when the seed from a > population are mixed. I liked Pauls explanation, especially the part about collecting seedpods from several clones. My views exactly, seed from one clone should be kept seperate from seed from a second clone. Are you sure that the pollinating insect made the reverse cross ? like in A x B and B x A, or was it so "dumb" as to create A x B and B x C... When we collect seedpods, all seedpods from the same clone are treated as the same seedbatch. Yes, we are not sure that every pod was pollinated using the same parent ! But that is, for us, an acceptable risk, since pollinators of orchids are in most cases quite specific insects, even within the same genus ! To get back to numbering. Well, this (for seedpods) is a different numbering system ! Why ? The numbering system explained above is used to identify specific clones (my dark flowered clone of "species x", my Mexican "species z"). The outcome of the seedpod in question is variable, so the designation of the seedpod number does not work since seedling A can be quite different from seedling B. In our laboratory a second numbering system is used, this time based on the abbreviated genus in question (seedpods from unidentified species get "SP" (= species) as abbreviation). When a seedling from that batch is selected for the private collection, then it is registered and the reference to the seedling batch is entered in the record. e.g. Paphiopedilum crosses -> PAPH001, PAPH002 Stanhopea crosses -> STAN001, STAN002 (only 3 digits as we will not attempt to make more than 999 pollinations within the same genus, so far so good) regards, Kenneth ______________________________________________________________________ Akerne Orchids-------------------------------- Tel.-- : Int'l + 32-(0)3-651.40.36 Laarsebeekdreef 4-------------------------- Fax---- : Int'l + 32-(0)3-653.06.76 B-2900 Schoten-------------------------------- E-mail: info@akerne-orchids.com Belgium---------------------------------------------- WWW---- : http://www.akerne-orchids.com ______________________________________________________________________ Orchid related questions ? Check out the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) on our second web site at http://www.orchidguide.com ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:10:59 -0800 Subject: Re: Drosera F1, F2 Hybrids >Is it possible that where inheritance is Mendelian, the offspring has average leaf length based on the geometric mean of its parents? (If this is basic biology and I ought to know better, don't hesitate to tell me). NigelH >I'm sure it's not a simple mendellian cross with one gene involved. Just as it's most likely not simple eithr with Sarracenia or Neps. Yet it seems to me that we see more variability and wider distribution of characters in F2 crosses of Neps and Sarras than in Drosera. Don't you agree?? That's why I suggested that maybe tetraploidy in the African species was helping to "mask" or even out this distribution of characters. And that's why I asked about petiolaris complex F", F3, and so on hybrids, because of their strange chromosome numbers. Any more input on the latter??? Fernando Rivadavia As I first said, leaf shape as seen in the hybrids I have made does not seem to follow what is termed Mendel's first law or the principle of segregation. Also the hybrids do not show what is termed incomplete dominance (this deals with one gene also) because in the F2 generation there are not once again individuals the same as either parent. Another Mendelian principle is termed independant assortment (this deals with more than one gene). But the hybrids don't seem to fit this well either because of intermediate characters, ...blah, blah, blah. Nevermind terminology, this is not what you were asking for anyway. I do agree with what you said above and have heard that most of the variation seen in the Sarracenia hybrids appears in the F2 generation. Petiolaris Sean is expected to soon be back online with his computer. Maybe he can tell us more. He does have second and third generation petiolaris complex hybrids. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:08:25 -0800 Subject: Re: D. sessilifolia >D. sessilifolia( I am responding from work, so if I mispell it, forgive me) is an annual from South America and looks rather similar ro D. burmanii and there has even been a cross of the two made by Ivan Snyder, I believe. They are very closely related, but I have not heard of them being synanomous. Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA Hi again CPers, Yes, you are correct Joe, I did cross them. These two species produce a fertile hybrid but will not cross with any other Drosera species. D. burmannii and D. sessilifolia are of the only members of the generic subsection Thelocalyx. Last year I got seed of a form of D. burmannii from Robert Gibson in Australia which he calls Pillaga Red. This form looked identical to the plant of D. sessilifolia Fernando sent me from Brazil. Still, both species names are legitimate. There is a funny story about the first burmannii/sessilifolia mixup. I wrote an article titled Relating D. burmanni and D. sessilifolia in the Oct. 1994 Flytrap News. The then president of the NSW Australia newsletter Dennis Daley came up with a theory that D. burmannii had been brought to S. America by Australian colonists. Fernando informed Mr. Daley that D. sessilifolia had been discribed and reported widespread in 1824 previous to the New Australians. In defense of Mr. Daley's theory I pointed out in personal correspondance to Fernando that D. burmannii could have been spread to S. America by Early Viking Botanists circa 1100 A.D.:-) Moral of the story; --There seems to be a prevalent notion that anything spread by birds is perceived as natural, while anything spread by Man is unnatural. Here is the spinoff of that: If we could show that D. burmannii was spread to S. America by Man, then we would all quickly agree that the name D. sessilifolia should not be. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 20:23:39 -0500 Subject: New member and a Hello everyone. My name is Michael Manna, I live in Delray Beach, FL, I just joined this group(finally) and I was told to say, and this is very difficult being my 1st meeting and all, I am a carnivorous plant enthusiast. There, I admitted it, I said it!, I feel better. Now for the rest of the steps. My parents would be proud! I hope you all laughed. And I didn't mean to insult anyone. Anyway, I just followed the instructions on the listserve. I was always intrigued and was 1st introduced to a N x ventrata, yrs ago and got hooked. It's like drugs, man. Yoooouu haaavvvee toooo saaaayyy noooo. That's where all my pot money went! I swear mom, I'm not spending it on drugs! I'm back in CP's after a several yr absence. I used to just grow local FL stuff but with an older wiser me( a B.S.) AND computers, I have been amazed with the amount of diversity abroad. I grow, a small amount of common stuff. I'll abbreviate for convenience N. amp, alata, albo, merill, sanguin, khas, bical, raff, trunc, mad, x ventrata, vent, gracilis, eustachya, mirab, mir v. echino, x coccinea,and other hybrids. P. lutea, pumila, morensis, planifolia. Sarr. purp, pssit, leuco. B. liniflora, filifolia. Utr. sander, livida, pusilla? D. capensis, capillaris, adelae, prolifera, peltata, multifida, 'extrema', intermedia, madagas?, burmanni. Dionea mus. red drag and regular var. heterophylla?. I am looking to expand my collection into more pings, drosera, utrics and other genera. Most of my stuff is small, but i will be giving away seed to less fortunate as soon as i get some. I also grow orchids, and go birding, and go to sessions for those obsessions too. I am glad and proud to converse with others of such good addictions, I love these plants, that's why I can't get a girl. Just kidding, she hasn't left me yet. But then she hasn't seen the greenhouse plans!!! Just imagine it! Sincerely Michael Manna _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: "Steve Gordon" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:02:30 -0000 Subject: Re: numbers and alba >> Does Marston Exotics 'Catalogue and Growers Guide' qualify :-) >Was it ever published? I do not know this guide. Hello Jan, well published in so much as it was printed and issued for sale: cannot give you any ISBN or a reference as there is none. Its a 40-page booklet. I've put a scan of the front cover here for you: http://www.steve-gordon.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DA.htm Thanks for the rest of your explanation: I did not actually expect it to be taken as a valid description, but if you wish I'll send the copy I have. Best wishes. Steve, UK. ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:22:10 -0500 Subject: Trinidad CPs? Does anyone know what grows in trinidad? Drosera, Pings, Genlisea. I am going on a research study there and would like to bring back some seed. Thanks Michael _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:03:12 -0000 Subject: Re: Numbering, KK1386, etc. Hi Kenneth - long time no hear! I thought your explanation of accession numbering used at Akerne Irchids was great; a timely piece following a lot of explanation showing exactly how a numbering system is used within te world of orchids. This is especially useful as I dobt any plant group can claim to give rise to the complexities originating within orchid collecting and hybridising. Some commnet from me on the system used, but not aimed at akerne Orchids - it's aimed at those who wish to start numbering. There are probably an infinite number of templates you can select for an accession number. The simplest is a plain number sequence, 1,2,3,4, etc. Next would be the same sequence but with a fixed length and zero filled. An example of such a sequence of a length of 5 digits would be 00001, 00002, 00003, 00004, etc.. Beyond those two you can add anything you like, but why would you. Well, without any exceptions that I know of (repeat, that I know of), there are two reasons. The first is that you are such an intrepid collector that you run out of numbers, i.e. in a fixed length example such as te one above, you reach the end of available numbers (e.g. 99999). To increase available numbers, you would then start a new sequence that began with a new sequence number. For ease of reading you might also add another character, such as a slash or hyphen. Thus you could create 1-00001, 1-00002, 1-00003, 1-00004, etc, or something similar. Note that in the three sequences I've shown, you cannot determine any information at all from the actual content of the number. No part of the number has any meaning other than to make the number unique allowing you to use it to referenece a single plant specimen or goup of specimens that have the same origin and represent the same plant type. Therefore, the other reason to add additional data to any plain number sequence is to add information to the sequence. Examples (taken from things i've seen) would be as follows: AO-01000 where AO represents Akerne Orchids (so you could replace with other "owner") date-01234 where the date can represent when the plant joined the collection or anything else you want it to collect coll-01234 where "coll" is another number that represents a filed trip loc-12345 where "loc" is another number that represents where the plant is physically located in the location hybrid numbers such as AO-date-coll-loc-01000 where lots of meaning is captured within the accession number. Now again, I emphasise, I am not criticising any existing method used to number a collection, especally not that of the zoo (see earlier discussion) or Akerne Orchids. However, the inclusion of any data within the accession number (or within a Collector's Number) is unnecesary and simply adds effort to that equired to maintain the numbering system. It can make the numbers attractive but otherwise serves no real purpose. Why? Well lets consider two alternatives in how you keep records (and I can't think of more than two!). These are: 1. you keep paper records 2. you keep electronic records (word processed, spreadsheet, database, etc.) I'll start with paper records. In paper records, the numbers can not be sorted on command into separate groups. Each record stays where you write it forever. So the number can't be used as an aid to create some sort of list. If you are keeping like numbers in separate parts of your paper system, since you have to know which plant belongs in which list before you give it a number, you can add it to the correct list and give it a plain number that is the next available in a plain number sequence. The extra meaning in the numbr is unnecessary. The record pointed to by the number can give all the appropriate data such as dates, collector's names and numbers, locations, etc, etc, etc. There is no data that you can add to the number that can not be recorded in the record. No data added to the number should be ommitted from the record pointed to. So why write it twice?!!! As to electronic records, the same points all apply except one. In electronic records, the accession number can be used to sort a list automatically using the intelligence of the computer system. With plain text documents created in a wod processoir (Lotus Notes, Microsft Word, etc.) you could just argue that this was a benefit but only if using pure text without tables. If using text in tabular form or if using spreadsheets or a database system (e.g. Microsoft Access), hen once again the additional information becomes repeated data entry and serves no purpose. You can sort abased on columns or fields in all these solutions so it is easy to record each piece of data separately, without incorporating one piece of data (say a date) into another - such as the Accession Number. You can then sort on one or multiple fields to create the required lists - effectively sub-categories or sub-collections. This does not, of course, get away from the charm of accession or collector's numbers that comprise letters, numbers and maybe even special characters (hyphens, slashes, asterisks, etc.). But I say again, for those of you starting such a numbering system, there is no need to introduce anything more complicated than a plain number sequence where the next plant you number is simply given the next unused number in the sequence. On a separate note, regarding the central recording of accession numbers, this is not normal practice and is as far aas I can see unmaintainable. Jan just answered this by saying he couldn't link his database to plant identities where the plant had disappeared from cultivation. In addition, to do so would try to wor the system backwards. The numbering system is generally employed to trace a plant's origins, assuming you actually have the plant already. In such a case, if you recorded the number (and where yo got it from) and if each person before you did the same, you can trace the plant back to it's origin without the aid of a central database. Even if someone fails to record their details, you may be able to jump that person's data gap by tracking the origins of other plants, if they have a collector's number (on;y or plants that originated from a wild collection). >But see those KK numbers, like KK1386? Those are the numbers that >cactus collectors covet. > What do these numbers mean? It's not clear but the way the list is written one would expect these to be Collector's Numbers which are very valuable (scientifically) as they point to a plant whose origin's can be traced back to a collection made at a particular time, date and place in the wild, and indeed to a specific collector (which can increase the trustworthynes of the collected material nad the collection data). Based on the other database that identifes KK as being Karel Knize, of the Czech Republic, this increases the likely hoodthat the number is a Collector's Number. It is not uncommon for collectors to preface their numbers with their initials or some other acronym representing themselves (though this is not necessarily helpful as duplicate acronyms can arise unless a central datbase records and controls them!). Michael makes a good point. Just because you get (buy?) a plant with a number, it doesn't mean the reference is correct!!! You have to know the supplier for one. Second, you really should try to identify the plant to see if it matches what the numbers suggest. But don't worry. If you collect for fun and can't be bothered with all that identification, you can just record the data. It will never reduce the value of your plants but it can increase their value. >10 could be Venus, 20 could be trumphet, 30 could be picture. >A cross between trumphet and picture could be 250. As I've said, you can do this sort of thing. But I advise all satarters, again, the more meaning you give to a number, the more hard work you create for yourself. Let me put it another way - WARNING, do not assign meaning to accession numbers or consituent parts of them. Maintain a simple sequential number series. Regards Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:07:29 -0000 Subject: Re: Sarracenia dispersal I'm no expert either on dispersal or Sarras (so why are you still reading this!) but I just thought I'd drop in the suggestion that hurricanes are a significant dispersal mechanism in the tropics though probably not the major one for sarras. Unrelated to the question, but spin off from it, in my view it's a fair bet that some of the Caribbean Pinguicula arrived in the islands on hurricanes, probably on those rare ones that originate south and blow up from Mexico to the islands. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: psher001@odu.edu Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 12:31:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia seed dispersal Hi Folks: Please note we have an abstract about a study we did on S. flava seed dispersal and dissemination in Virginia. Go to the RESEARCH section of our web page at www.pitcherplant.org and look under Abstracts. In short, water is the main agent for dispersal locally. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station ################### From: "R B" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:12:50 -0800 Subject: Best way to acclimate plant from Southern Hemisphere? What's the best way to acclimate a plant grown in the southern hemisphere to adjust itself to the growing seasons in the northern hemisphere? Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:07:24 EST Subject: seeking U. humboldtii Hi everyone, I'm looking to buy an established Utricularia humboldtii to add to the collection at the UCBG in Berkeley. Anyone in the U.S. who might have a plant or plants of this to sell please contact me at davidogray@aol.com Incedentally, I've developed a peek-a-boo pot to aid in the demonstration of the traps without disturbing the plant - it involves a glass flower pot fitted with an internal grid, all set into a clay flower pot. Visitors will be able to see it on display in the next few weeks. Cheers, David San Francisco, where is cloudy, foggy, calm and 55 deg. F. ( 13 C. ) ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:17:26 +0000 Subject: names Dear Paul, > As a separate point of personal interest - I'm not actually sure what to expect if a cultivar name is > "published" but is not considerd established, Several different cases here: > for example because the name already exists in that genus Such things are called homonyms. If the plant is different (from the plant that was first described with the same name) and if its description was published together with the name, the ICRA (registration authority) would inform the author that the name he used is a homonym. Prior to registration, the ICRA would ask the registrant to choose another name. Registration would be effected for the new name, and the later homonym would be listed in the International Register together with a note leading to the registered new name. Creating homonyms can be avoided whatsoever by publishing the description in CPN, because this is the Journal of the cp ICRA, and its editors do check all submissions against the cp database (which includes the International Register of cp cultivar names) prior to publication. > or because insufficient description is given to allow association of > the name with some known appearance Any text written by the describing author should *in the author's opinion* distinguish the new cultivar from all cultivars described before. The important point here is the author's opinion, if this is satisfied (and if the description is *published*), the new name is established (but not yet registered!). The cp ICRA requires submission of the description *plus* a standard colour photograph of the living plant, in order to be able to register the cultivar name. Again, it is the *registrant's* responsibility to submit a picture that shows all distinguishing features. The available data (author's description, registrant's standard) are kept and published by the ICRA, and the public is thus enabled to make decisions based on qualified (UNCENSORED!) data. Although this procedure may seem complicated or fallible, it is considered better than decisions based on guesswork, insider information, or opinions. The important point is that establishment or registration of a cultivar name do *not* depend on the *quality* of description or standard but they do merely depend on *publication* and *availability* to the ICRA (and therefore, availability to the public). > or because the description given in no way allows the cultivar to be > distinguished from another previously described cultivar. The same as above. The ICRA is not entitled to *make* such judgements. It has to *allow* such judgements by publishing the facts. Nothing else. > Is the name ignored? No. If published and submitted for registration properly (with standard, v.s.), a cultivar name must and will be registered, so it will appear in the International Register. > Is it recorded as an equivalent of an invlaid name? Only if the registrant does want this to be done or if the nomenclatural Codes (ICBN and ICNCP) allow and require this, and only if the rights of other registrants are not affected adversely . > Is such a name barred from future use as it's use has been inappropriate? A later homonym should not be used (because it is ambiguous). Names falling into other categories mentioned above can be used once they are established and registered. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Vitor Fernandes Oliveira de Miranda Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:16:21 -0200 Subject: more about numbering list Hi Jan, >>(...), a way to avoid it may be publishing the original >> numbers list on internet, who knows at ICPS site or even at CP >> Database site (what's your opinion Jan? ). >There is, as far as I understand the ongoing discussion correctly, no >defined set of data that should "at least" be linked to collection >numbers. This makes identification of the taxa corresponding to >collection numbers impossible once the plants are no longer available >(things that may happen in cultivation!). If collection numbers were >backed up by e.g. herbarium specimens, there might be a way to link >them with taxonomic data as listed in the cp db. Anyway, this would >be an enormous task, and I have other interests at the moment, viz. >providing a mapping function with the database browser and including >systematic information for more sophisticated searches and >statistics. I had not thought to link the numbering list with the cp database. Of course, it's almost impossible to assign each sample in cultivation in a oficial taxanomic list. I just thought in use the site, only to show the numbering list, with no relation with cp database. All the best Vitor. ################### From: Vitor Fernandes Oliveira de Miranda Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:26:20 -0200 Subject: re: D. sessilifolia > There is a funny story about the first burmannii/sessilifolia mixup. I >wrote an article titled Relating D. burmanni and D. sessilifolia in the >Oct. 1994 Flytrap News. Hi Ivan, Very interesting your ideas about D. sessilifolia. But, I yet agree that D. sessilifolia is a true species, even if was brought to S Am by humans. I think we have to consider if the differences between the two taxa (D. sessilifolia and D. burmannii) are enough to regard them separately. What do you think? Do you have the article from Flytrap News? Could you send me a copy? I guess it is very interesting. :-) Thanks in advance. Vitor. ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:59:20 +1100 Subject: Pinguicula cutting problems Dear List readers, I have had an interesting (if somewhat frustrating) experience with Pinguicula leaf cuttings. I have started these in both live Sphagnum moss and in vermiculite, with equal success, but no success in peat-sand mixes. Anyway, I have been noticing that once the cuttings get to a certain stage, the older leaves start to go yellow and wither, and this withering seems to catch up with the growing tip faster than the plant grows leaves. Is this normal, or are the plants in need of something else?. This is more of a problem in plants in sphagnum than those moved to a vermiculite/perlite/grit/peat mix. I have just started trying to fertilise them with a 1/5 strength low nitrogen (bloom booster type) fertiliser, which at least is not damaging them. However there seems to have been no improvement yet. Cheers, and thanks for any light you may shed on the plight of my plants! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 ph: (03) 62262624 ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:18:00 EST Subject: Re: Pinguicula cutting problems Miguel, "Shedding light" may be the key phrase, there. How much light are the cuttings getting? If they are getting the same amount as growing plants, that may be stressing them, causing them to turn yellow-brown and wither. If they are getting sun(bad) or indirect light(good)? I do mine under flourescent lights and they seem to take really well. One shoplight sitting on a couple of 10 gallons does the trick. I use a little sphagnum on top of the prefered medium and let them grow into the pot. I hope this helps. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:04:05 -0500 Subject: RE: Numbering - seed collections >Each seed collection (at the Millennium Seed Bank, at any rate) >will then be assigned a unique accession number on our database, Hi Steve, Please let me know if you want wild-collected Sarracenia seed for your seed bank. I can provide all the information you've requested. David Atlanta ################### From: "Lysne, Mark" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:57:36 -0500 Subject: CP Sites in Central and Southern Florida I will be in Central and Southern Florida in late February. I would like to know of any sites where CPs can be viewed. I am interested in natural sites, botanical gardens and nurseries. In particular I would like to know where on Lake Okeechobee the Sarracenia minor can be found. Thanks, Mark Lysne ################### From: Michael Pagoulatos Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:09:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nepenthes question I have been growing a few Nepenthes plants in my house by the window, hanging from the ceiling. The plants are healthy, growing and pitchering. Some of these plants have grown a lot, with vines hanging 2-3 feet below the pot. I have read that Nepenthes tendrils need to grab on something to climb. If I just let the vines hang, are they likely to brake off because of the weight (I have seen pictures of wild Nepenthes with vines hanging several feet)? What is likely to happen, given that there is nothing for the tendrils to climb on? Thanks in advance, Michael Pagoulatos Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:05:13 +0000 Subject: Re: Trinidad CPs? Dear Michael, > Does anyone know what grows in trinidad? The ISO code is "TT". (for the rest, see archives). Kind regards Jan ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:03:22 -0000 Subject: Re: Trinidad CPs Hi Michael I've good news and bad news. First, if you like Utrics then Trinidad's a great place to visit. The bad news is that getting to se any is difficult if not near impossible. The best book to use is Peter Taylor's monograph on Utricularia as it lists approximate (very approximate) locations. In brief, there are 3 obvious areas to look in. The high mountains (look on any map) are home to U. alpina. This is in cultivations so is hardly worth removing from habitat. To see it you have to find literally the veryhighest mountain aeas and then walk. It's damned hard to find any, Trinidad is not the best place to find it. Second is Tar Lake (again, use a map). This is a natural lake of hot tar that escapes from the Earth in Trinidad and, at it's other end, in Venezuela. The tar is covered by water to form a hot lake that you can walk in, standing on the tar. Nearby houses are built on higher tar and gradually sink into it over the years - amusing to see. The lake is hme to U. ********. OK, it's acommon Utric, but it's nice to see how it lives. Best of all is the Aripo Savannah. This is a large area of fairly regular "fields" that look artificial or cultivated but are natural. Each "field" is surrounded by a natural fence of scrub and trees. The fields vary in height and, as a result, and all being at flood level, the fields are therefore wet or flooded to some degree or another. You need waders (rubber thigh length boots) to avoid getting wet or you accept that you'll get wet and also offer your flesh to anything in the water!!! Oh yes, there are also the anacondas, which live wild in Aripo and are considered large enough to be dangerous even to adults, though I personally doubt this is true - unless they're very hungry!!! :-) The problem is that the Aripo Savannahs are a National Park and totally protected. By totally, I mean that legally, you can not just walk around inside the savannah. You need a permit. Of course, the savannahs are huge, so one can imagine that walking in them without a permit may be quite easy to do without being caught. But they are well patrolled (men with cutlasses, or some call them machetes). Alternatively, there is a small "office" along the edge of the savannah where you can ask permission to enter. They may be in a good mood or may just say no. Usually they say no as it avoids any need for paperwork. If you can travel with any letters of introduction form published botanists it might help. But it might not. I got in the first time because I knew Peter taylor and had a letter from him as well as being an ex-eacher from one of the most famous of all Caribbean schools (in Barbados). They also let me in because they thought it was hilarious that I was going to protect myself against any giant anaconda by using my nice diver's knife (which they reckoned might tickle the snake if i was really strong!). I think they wanted to see if I got eaten! The second visit I made, they let me in because they had let me in the first time!!! If you do get in, something is always in flower. You can bet that wherever you put a foot there will be a minimum of 3 different Utrics squashed and maybe as many as 6 or 7 species. Overall, there are more species than that but you'll need 2 or more wekeks to find them. Many, and in my opinion the most interesting, are deep in the savannah in deep ditches full of water - they are of course fixed aquatics. But you can certainly see some exciting species where the savannnah is flat and wet. U. hispida is worth looking out for as it's habitat preference seems to be different in Trinidad to Brazil (I've discussed this with Fernando). You'll find this speciesd in wet areas where most of the land is under about 1 inch (2 cm) of water. The plants will be on the top of small bumps of soil, each single clump growing next to a single clump of hairy grass. No-one knows why the two plants are associatedn though i suppose they both like the same conditions. In other parts of Trinidad, esecially in deep water filled ditches, there are other Utrics but finding them will take a long time. Sadly, the removal of anything from Aripo is totally forbidden. However, there is no real likelyhood of finding any new species there (it's been thoroughly researched for years by Peter Taylor and many famous and less famous Trinidadians) so why seed can't be collected I don't know. Of all the islands in the Caribbean, Trinidad can live up to a reputation for having the least helpful inhabitats who don't go out of their way to help tourists (Trinidad once found oil and thought it could survive without tourism - it didn't, and the oil mostly ran dry - but the independence from tourism liners on!!!). Be patient and friendly and keep your fingers crossed. If people say no, look sad, look as if you might cry, and try another way to ask. Praise the uniqueness of the place and the way its an excellent example of conservation that you've travelled miles to see. As long as you don't make someone angry (in which case be very polite and leave), the more time you spend asking for help, the more likely they are to think it will be quicker and easier to say yes than to say no! Oh, I almost forgot. How unlike me. There are a couple of funny rosetty red things too. However, even Fernando would find it hard to get excited about them! (There used to be a wild population of Dionaea. It was planted by the tar lake on private property. But i doubt it's still alive as the plant gets no rest period in Trinidad so will by now have become exhausted and died out. They were an attempt at a commercial exercise.) Hope this helps a little. Regards Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:06:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sarracenia seed dispersal Hey Folks, Sarracenia seeds are hydrophobic. They can float and float. Put them in a body of water and they'll go anywhere. On the other hand, field researchers have noted that plants such as S. oreophila can migrate uphill, and have suggested that the somewhat stiff flower stalks may act as slings, throwing the seed as they get tossed about in the wind. Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:33:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Sarracenia seed dispersal Phil, > >Please note we have an abstract about a study we did on S. flava seed >dispersal and dissemination in Virginia. Go to the RESEARCH section of our >web page at www.pitcherplant.org and look under Abstracts. In short, water >is the main agent for dispersal locally. > I'm surprised this topic did not generate more interest! Your observations certainly seem to confirm my thoughts on the subject though as I mentioned in my posting there is probably some secondary means of dispersal of seed between suitable habitat, unless a case could be made for a far more extensive and interconnected bog system in the eastern North America. A useful means of observing migration of seedlings through populations is to observe plants in sites where there is a predominance of one species with single or very few plants of a second. Where these species readily hybridise it is possible to see hybrid plants of second and subsequent generations move in a radial pattern from the original parent. I have seen this phenomenon at several locations in the south. At one site the hybrid progeny could be seen clearly moving away from the parent. The further away from the original parent the hybrid "moved" the more like the predominant species it looked. The migration of the seedlings also almost certainly followed a water course - the ground sloped away from the parent plant in the same direction as the migration was observed. Your abstract on Sarracenia growing season dormancy was interesting and recalled a previous conversation. Do you know a guy called Randy Zerr? He lives at Fort Walton Beach in the Florida panhandle and has done a lot of work in the Eglin Reserve. He has found plants of S. flava growing in a semi-dormant state in the summer. The plant were growing in well developed planted (not natural) pine forest and had plenty of non- carnivorous phylodia leaves but no pitchers. Randy estimates the age of the pine trees to be about fifteen years. The assumption is that probably for the first five years the Sarracenia were able to grow more or less normally before the trees grew tall enough to block out the sunlight. Therefore the plants had probably been in this "dormant" state for the remainder of the time until Randy had found the plants. He removed a plant to see if it would revert to normal growth once given sufficient light - it did. I would not consider this state of growth to be dormant since the plants were obviously still growing. I would consider however that the plants were in a state of reduced growth - you could call it semi-dormancy. The plants were not flowering and were not producing pitchers. They were most likely surviving at a reduced growth rate from food reserves stored in the rhizomes. No seedlings or juvenile plants were observed at the site. It is an assumption, but a pretty good one, that the plants were surviving in this reduced state until conditions improved. I suspect that at least some Sarracenia species are able to make this change in growth type as a means of survival when conditions deteriorate. It is likely that this was originally a means of surviving periods of drought and in fact I saw this sort of shut down in growth last fall in the south where the area had been subject to very low rainfall throughout the area last summer. Many areas of S. leucophylla were observed with nothing but phylodia growth. At other areas plants had produced fall pitchers but these were reduced in height. The most interesting areas were plants that had apparently aborted all pitcher growth in favour of seed production. Plants were seen with no leaf growth other than phylodia but with mature seed pods. The assumption is that the plant's reaction to drought differs according to what stage of growth the drought occurs. If it occurs before seed has set the flowers and pitchers abort - in some instances phylodia are produced but this is not always the case. If seed production has begun then all growth is aborted in favour of seed production. The reasons are obvious - the best chance of survival is by dormant seed, which may lie in the ground for a number of years waiting for favourable conditions to return. Failing that the plants will attempt to survive in a shut down 'semi-dormant' state. Do you know of any work that has been carried out on the ancient distribution patterns of Sarracenia and its related genera? One thing that has puzzled me for some time now is how the apparently related genera of Sarracenia, Heliamphora and Darlingtonia became so widely dispersed from one another? There are apparently impenetrable barriers separating the populations - mountains, deserts and sea! Of course these barriers may be geologically recent events but even so the distance between these genera is impressive on its own. Add to that the fact that the tepuis are very ancient pieces of uplifted sandstone and have their origins in Africa. One idea is that the genera, or some predecessor may have existed in central America at the time of the last ice age. During the ice ages the sea level was considerably reduced perhaps allowing boggy habitat to form all along the gulf coast. Also the climate may have been both cooler and wetter due to the relative proximity of the ice cap. Do you know how Sarracenia and the other genera fit into the geological time scale? Our society committee will be meeting in March, by which time the sub- committee will hopefully have come to a decision about your funding application. If there are any developments I'll let you know, unofficially or officially. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:42:30 -0500 Subject: RE: Sarracenia seed dispersal >On the other hand, field researchers have noted that plants such as >S. oreophila can migrate uphill, and have suggested that the somewhat >stiff flower stalks may act as slings, throwing the seed as they get >tossed about in the wind. Ever run across one of those giant clumps of S. minor in the wild. If you get down on your hands and knees and search out the flower stalks, you'll find that they hang away from the plant at about a 30 degree angle. That's probably an evoluntionary advantage brought about by a flower stalk that is decidedly shorter than the other upright Sarracenia, which produce tall, straight inflorecences. Hanging away from the plant allows the seed to fall on bare ground where it has a better chance of surviving. The upright pitchers, on the other hand, can still produce large clumps but probably have the advantage of a flower stalk being blown down by strong winds and falling far from the plants rhizome, again allowing seedlings space to grow. I've never seen clumps of S. psittacina. I think what's happening there is that S. psittacina prefer habitat that regularly is flooded, for instance, ditches, and therefore seed is much more likely to be moved around by water. David Atlanta ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:53:51 EST Subject: Re: Trinidad CPs Paul, Fernando and Sundew Matt are not the only ones who like funny, red rosetted things. What are they? Tropical capillaris, brevifolia and intermedia? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:47:29 EST Subject: Re: Trinidad CPs Hi All, Just so Paul does not have to do anything undignified like name a couple of Drosera species( :0), I looked it up and the two Drosera species are D. intermedia and D. kaieteurensis. FYI. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Fernando Rivadavia Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:43:25 -0200 (UOL) Subject: D.sessilifolia/flora ; collection numbers To all, I'm really enjoying this thread and wanted to say that I'm all for adding numbers, since I already use a numbering system: my herbarium collection numbers. I always collect herbarium and include all sorts of info, like collection number, habitat info, plant colors, and even GPS data. I guess if we're all in agreement (or at least most of us), all we have to do now is convince seed banks worldwide to take these numbers into consideration. In my case, I guess Rivadavia followed by the number would be correct. Or simply my initials would be better maybe, like that Czech cactus guy (KK). To Greg, Miguel, Joe, and everyone, >Sorry Miguel and Joe, you said D. sessilifolia but I was asking about >sessiliflora. The plant I have is not sessilifolia. It is not an annual >that's for sure. I think I'd better leave it until I get a web page up and >running so I can show you photos. AAARRGH! Let me put an end to this before it goes any further! This is one of those confusions which just goes on and on and makes me want to forget this whole numbering system story, especially because I'm always writing about it here and yet it keeps coming back to haunt me, like the Friday the 13th movies!! There is NO SUCH THING as D.sessiliFLORA. This is a misspelling of D.sessiliFOLIA. Furthermore, seeds being traded around as " D.sessiliFLORA" and a few D.sessiliFOLIA are NOT the real D.sessiliFOLIA. THAT is why your plant does not look like D.burmannii and is not annual, Greg. As Paul would say, it's one of those red rosetted thingies. African by the way... While on the subject, I'd forgotten about that ACPS D.sessilifolia story Ivan, hahaha! I don't doubt that D.sessilifolia could have been brought by man, but if this was true I would say it happened a few thousand years ago AT LEAST. After all, it occurs from central Brazil all the way to N Venezuela. It's the most widespread of all S.American Drosera (well, second maybe to D.communis). I've no doubt however that it did come from Asia and not vice-versa, since it seems to be surprisingly unvariable for such a widespread plant. D.burmannii on the other hand is far more variable (Ivan, I'd love to see pics of this D.burmannii you said Rob collected and which looks like D.sessilifolia!), which to me suggests that it has had a longer speciation time and therefore has been around there longer. I use the same thinking to assume that D.brevifolia came to Brazil from the N rather than vice-versa. Usually larger genetic variability indicates the place or origin. Look at the recent genetic studies with H.sapiens... Bet Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia (right now in Santiago, Chile... and guess what I found over the weekend?!?!) ################### From: "Steve Alton" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:44:36 -0000 Subject: Seed collecting Dear David, Wild-collected seed samples are always welcome, providing all the legal requirements have been observed - permission from the land owner, consent of any relevant government body in the case of protected species, CITES and phytosanitary regulations, etc. We have a simple donations form which we send out to collaborators, detailing the procedure. Perhaps you could contribute to the project being set up by Catherine Prior of the World Environmental Organization? [Catherine - any thoughts?] Bear in mind that seed donated to the Millennium Seed Bank is held as a conservation and research resource, not to supply enthusiast growers - we are not in competition with the ICPS seed bank! Regards, Steve > Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:04:05 -0500 > From: "Mellard, David" > To: "'cp@opus.labs.agilent.com'" > Subject: RE: Numbering - seed collections > Message-ID: > > > > >Each seed collection (at the Millennium Seed Bank, at any rate) > >will then be assigned a unique accession number on our database, > > > Hi Steve, > > Please let me know if you want wild-collected Sarracenia seed for your > seed bank. I can provide all the information you've requested. > > David > Atlanta > MILLENNIUM SEED BANK Project Steve Alton B.Sc. Seed Donations Officer Seed Conservation Department Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew Wakehurst Place, Ardingly, Haywards Heath West Sussex RH17 6TN, UK Tel direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894119 Fax direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894110 Email: s.alton@rbgkew.org.uk http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/seedbank/msb.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:48:10 -0000 Subject: Re: Trinidadian rosetty things Jo >Fernando and Sundew Matt are not the only ones who like funny, >red rosetted things. Wow, three people that love them! Their popularity has grown by 50% in one day! :-) >Just so Paul does not have to do anything undignified like name a couple of > Drosera species( :0), I looked it up and the two Drosera species are D. >intermedia and D. kaieteurensis. FYI. And had I replied, I would have got it wrong! But just to step out of character for a second - the intermedia are very nice (but still red and rosetty) and everywhere (or anywere that is wet enough)! :-) Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:50:42 -0000 Subject: Re: right now in Santiago, Chile Fernando >(right now in Santiago, Chile... and guess what I found over the weekend?!?!) Oh goodie goodie goodie! Surely all this excitement can't be for a red rosetty thing? I could almost start getting excited! :-) However, if anyone visits the Paramos of Venezuela/Colombia, I really would get excited about a quaint little D, D, D (hang about, I've a problem with using this word), Drosera, that grows in them thar hills. Now there's a statement noboday ever expected to get from me!!! Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:13:57 +0000 Subject: "most widespread" and sessilifolia Dear Fernando, > I don't doubt that D.sessilifolia could have been brought by man, but > if this was true I would say it happened a few thousand years ago > AT LEAST. After all, it occurs from central Brazil all the way to N > Venezuela. It's the most widespread of all S.American Drosera (well, > second maybe to D.communis). This may be true *within* S America, but is definitely not the case from a global point of view. In contrast to the two species you mentioned, there are three others that extend to N America, viz. _D. intermedia_, _capillaris_, and _brevifolia_. Of these, the first also occurs in the Old World, and therefore, this is the unchallenged, most widespread of all S American _Drosera_. While I agree that _D. sessilifolia_ might have come from the East (of Gondwana), humans do not need to have been involved (BTW: humans did not exist when Gondwana was *one* continent!). The most striking feature in the recent distribution of Thelocalyx is its apparent lack in Africa, if it is assumed to be an old Gonwanan element (it is quite certainly an old element in the genus: "primitive" pollen type, 5 carpels). I have written "apparent" (for those who did not notice it), because I think Planchon (1848) mentions a specimen of _D. burmannii_ from Sierra Leone (W Africa)! This specimen (an Afzelius collection) is not mentioned by Diels or Hamet nor by any subsequent author. I have not seen the specimen (it might be at P or K), so I do not really know what it is. Of course it could be assumed that the plant came to Sierra Leone by ship together with goods from Asia. But where would you expect S American elements to have survived (from Gondwanan times) in Africa? Right in Upper Guinea (remember the recent discovery of the American _Utricularia juncea_ in Ivory Coast)! So perhaps the Afzelius specimen is not _D. burmannii_ but rather _D. sessilifolia_. But the two may be the same, anyway. In any event, the African gap would be much narrower, and it could be explained by the droughts that have eliminated much of Africa's original flora. It would perhaps be interesting (for our British or French colleagues) to look for the Afzelius specimen and maybe (for those who visit the region) to look for further specimens of strange rosetted things in W Africa. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:52:55 -0500 Subject: FW: Join -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 3:52 PM To: 'cp@opus.labs.agilent.com' Hey there, Is there a cp list serve? If so, how do I join? I would like to join the CP list serve. slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: Catherine Prior Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:58:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Seed collecting Steve Alton wrote: > > Dear David, > > Perhaps you could contribute to the project being set up by Catherine >Prior of the World Environmental Organization? [Catherine - any thoughts?] Steve and others, Thanks for recommending that people donate seed to our Endangered Plant Propagation Center. We are currently developing a formal system for accepting seed donations, but are glad to accept any contributions of seed either for our efforts, or on behalf of the Millennium Seed Bank, now. When our seed donation procedure is finalized I will put more information out to this list. We currently have seed for about 1,200 species and varieties of CP which we are starting at our location in Watkinsville, Georgia. There is not much to see yet, as we are just planting most of the seeds now, so we only have some small seedlings started so far. This said, anyone passing through the area is welcome to visit. Just give us a call, or e-mail, a few days ahead. The phone number here is (706) 769-1000. Also, our address is: World Environmental Organization 2001 J.T. Elder Road Watkinsville, GA 30677 Web site is at http://www.World.Org The seeds we receive will be used to grow future propagation stock to be provided to universities, botanical gardens, and also, as necessary, to propagate plants for field restoration work. Best regards, Catherine Prior cp@world.org > > ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:31:12 -0500 Subject: RE: D.sessilifolia/flora ; collection numbers > I always collect herbarium and include all sorts of info, like collection number, habitat info, >plant colors, and even GPS data. I guess if we're all in agreement (or at least most of us), all >we have to do now is convince seed banks worldwide to take these numbers into consideration. In Sounds like this is a job for Super..., I mean ICPS. Maybe they could propose a universal numbering system. Isn't it great that we have a bunch of dedicated volunteers that little folks can propose things to. That way, all of us who want to do this can use the same system. David Atlanta ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:58:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Best way to acclimate plant from Southern Hemisphere? Ron, > >What's the best way to acclimate a plant grown in the southern hemisphere to >adjust itself to the growing seasons in the northern hemisphere? > >Ron >_________________________________________________________________ It probably depends much on the plant. Some plants do not have a dormancy requirement and will grow all year round. Generally though, for most plants that have a dormancy its just a question of letting the plant adjust its own growth pattern. This usually takes about a year. The exceptions are plants that enter a true dormancy such as tuberous and pygmy Drosera where more care is needed to allow the plants to adjust to the seasons. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:26:53 +0000 Subject: Re: Pinguicula cutting problems Miguel, > >I have had an interesting (if somewhat frustrating) experience with >Pinguicula leaf cuttings. I have started these in both live Sphagnum moss >and in vermiculite, with equal success, but no success in peat-sand mixes. >Anyway, I have been noticing that once the cuttings get to a certain stage, >the older leaves start to go yellow and wither, and this withering seems to >catch up with the growing tip faster than the plant grows leaves. Is this >normal, or are the plants in need of something else?. This is more of a >problem in plants in sphagnum than those moved to a >vermiculite/perlite/grit/peat mix. Several things spring to mind. You could be keeping the cuttings too wet, too humid, too warm or you could be giving them too much light. What you report is certainly not normal - I have never experienced it anyway. There is one other possibility. You could have a fungal pathogen - not necessarily the usual botrytis. Have you experienced any similar problems with rotting in your plants? A few growers have had problems of this sort. Usually the problem starts with a few of the leaves starting to rot and then very rapidly (often overnight) the entire plant succumbs. If you think this might be the problem you could try a fungicide though it is likely that simply increasing ventilation and decreasing humidity could be equally successful. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:12:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: UC Davis Open House Hey Folks, February 10th, 1:30-4:00, the UC Davis Botanical Conservatory will be holding its annual Open House. Folks in the northern California area may wish to drop by and see the carnivorous plant collections we have here. On hand will be at least one editor of Carnivorous Plant Newsletter (some guy named Barry Meyers-Rice), and probably the ICPS Seed Bank overlord (John Brittnacher, another Ne'er-do-well). Stop by and see us! Contact information is at http://greenhouse.ucdavis.edu/conservatory.htm Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:27:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Seed collecting Steve, > >Wild-collected seed samples are always welcome, providing all the >legal requirements have been observed - permission from the land >owner, consent of any relevant government body in the case of >protected species, CITES and phytosanitary regulations, etc. > Its just a small point but seeds of all species except those listed under the CITES appendix I are exempt from international restrictions. As far as I know there are also no phytosanitary restrictions regarding seed when importing into the UK. Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 17:33:50 -0600 Subject: List Problems? Is the list still alive? I haven't gotten any messages since December. If it's me - email me personally since I obviously won't get it from the list - I can't seem to find the list subscription web page. Thanks, Mike ################### From: Phil Sheridan Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1981 20:29:08 -0800 Subject: Re: Sarracenia seed dispersal and pitcher plant preserve Hi Phil: I am answering a number of questions you proposed below and also want to alert ICPS members again about the preserve we are building in southern Virginia. We have applied to the UK CP Society for a grant to help in our acquisition of a pitcher plant preserve in southern Virginia and solicit the rest of the ICPS membership in that effort. Our organization, Meadowview Biological Research Station, is an official IRS 501(c)(3) organization to which you can now donate tax deductible contributions. In brief, our goal is to capture the entire native Virginia longleaf pine (4432 trees) and yellow pitcher genome on one preserve, along with about a dozen other native rare associate species. The future preserve encompasses 100 acres of gently rolling terrain and sphagnous seepage wetlands within the heart of the longleaf pine and yellow pitcher plant range in Virginia. We have worked with the landowner over the past four years and have successfully reintroduced one population of S. flava and have very successful test plantings with longleaf pine. Sarracenia flava will be planted in separate seeps based on separate sites to preserve local identity to the best extent possible (one population allowed to bloom per year). The preserve will be managed with fire and we have the possibility of eventually significantly expanding the landholding. Please note that two of the native Virginia S. flava populations we have studied over the years have done extinct due to flooding or habitat degradation. We are now the sole repositorty for these genomes and these plants are maintained in above ground beds. We would like to return them to the wild in a secure area and the preserve offers that opportunity. Purchase price is the assessed value of $113,000. We have already received a cash donation by Keith Underwood and Associate, of Annapolis, Maryland for $750.00 and have set up the savings account for land putchase. If you wish to make a donation and have it dedicated to the preserve please indicate this on our sponsorship form at our web site at www.pitcherplant.org. Now to Phil Wilson's e-mail. > > Phil, > > > >Please note we have an abstract about a study we did on S. flava seed > >dispersal and dissemination in Virginia. Go to the RESEARCH section of our > >web page at www.pitcherplant.org and look under Abstracts. In short, water > >is the main agent for dispersal locally. > > > I'm surprised this topic did not generate more interest! > > Your observations certainly seem to confirm my thoughts on the subject > though as I mentioned in my posting there is probably some secondary > means of dispersal of seed between suitable habitat, unless a case could > be made for a far more extensive and interconnected bog system in the > eastern North America. > > A useful means of observing migration of seedlings through populations > is to observe plants in sites where there is a predominance of one > species with single or very few plants of a second. Where these species > readily hybridise it is possible to see hybrid plants of second and > subsequent generations move in a radial pattern from the original > parent. I have seen this phenomenon at several locations in the south. > At one site the hybrid progeny could be seen clearly moving away from > the parent. The further away from the original parent the hybrid "moved" > the more like the predominant species it looked. The migration of the > seedlings also almost certainly followed a water course - the ground > sloped away from the parent plant in the same direction as the migration > was observed. This sounds interesting. > > Your abstract on Sarracenia growing season dormancy was interesting and > recalled a previous conversation. Do you know a guy called Randy Zerr? No. > He lives at Fort Walton Beach in the Florida panhandle and has done a > lot of work in the Eglin Reserve. He has found plants of S. flava > growing in a semi-dormant state in the summer. The plant were growing in > well developed planted (not natural) pine forest and had plenty of non- > carnivorous phylodia leaves but no pitchers. Randy estimates the age of > the pine trees to be about fifteen years. The assumption is that > probably for the first five years the Sarracenia were able to grow more > or less normally before the trees grew tall enough to block out the > sunlight. Therefore the plants had probably been in this "dormant" state > for the remainder of the time until Randy had found the plants. He > removed a plant to see if it would revert to normal growth once given > sufficient light - it did. > Yes, but I don't like the term dormancy. Since they still produce leaves (pyllodia) and weak pitchers they are actively growing and not dormant. Sarracenia typically responds to reduced light levels in this fashion. > I would not consider this state of growth to be dormant since the plants > were obviously still growing. I would consider however that the plants > were in a state of reduced growth - you could call it semi-dormancy. The > plants were not flowering and were not producing pitchers. They were > most likely surviving at a reduced growth rate from food reserves stored > in the rhizomes. But probably not exclusively on reserves. Since they have leaves there should be some photosynthetic contribution. No seedlings or juvenile plants were observed at the > site. It is an assumption, but a pretty good one, that the plants were > surviving in this reduced state until conditions improved. I agree. Waiting for some kind of disturbance, such as fire. Although this can get a lot more complicated. In natural systems, even in the absence of frequent fire, you can get small natural gaps with full sun surrounded by much more shaded plants. > > I suspect that at least some Sarracenia species are able to make this > change in growth type as a means of survival when conditions > deteriorate. It is likely that this was originally a means of surviving > periods of drought and in fact I saw this sort of shut down in growth > last fall in the south where the area had been subject to very low > rainfall throughout the area last summer. Many areas of S. leucophylla > were observed with nothing but phylodia growth. At other areas plants > had produced fall pitchers but these were reduced in height. The most > interesting areas were plants that had apparently aborted all pitcher > growth in favour of seed production. Or they had a moist spring, which allowed flowering and seed set, and then the rain stopped resulting in greatly reduced growth. Plants were seen with no leaf > growth other than phylodia but with mature seed pods. The assumption is > that the plant's reaction to drought differs according to what stage of > growth the drought occurs. If it occurs before seed has set the flowers > and pitchers abort - in some instances phylodia are produced but this is > not always the case. If seed production has begun then all growth is > aborted in favour of seed production. The reasons are obvious - the best > chance of survival is by dormant seed, which may lie in the ground for a > number of years waiting for favourable conditions to return. Failing > that the plants will attempt to survive in a shut down 'semi-dormant' > state. > > Do you know of any work that has been carried out on the ancient > distribution patterns of Sarracenia and its related genera? There is speculation by Fred and Roberta Case in their S. rubra papers. Also check early Wherry work. There was also a paper a few years back on Heliamphora, Darlingtonia, and Sarracenia spred from progenitors in South America. Very speculative stuff though. One thing > that has puzzled me for some time now is how the apparently related > genera of Sarracenia, Heliamphora and Darlingtonia became so widely > dispersed from one another? There are apparently impenetrable barriers > separating the populations - mountains, deserts and sea! Of course these > barriers may be geologically recent events but even so the distance > between these genera is impressive on its own. Add to that the fact that > the tepuis are very ancient pieces of uplifted sandstone and have their > origins in Africa. > > One idea is that the genera, or some predecessor may have existed in > central America at the time of the last ice age. During the ice ages the > sea level was considerably reduced perhaps allowing boggy habitat to > form all along the gulf coast. Also the climate may have been both > cooler and wetter due to the relative proximity of the ice cap. Do you > know how Sarracenia and the other genera fit into the geological time > scale? > > Our society committee will be meeting in March, by which time the sub- > committee will hopefully have come to a decision about your funding > application. If there are any developments I'll let you know, > unofficially or officially. > > Regards, > Phil Wilson > Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk > Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk My regards to all of you. Hope to hear from you! Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station ################### From: Ccp108@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:35:29 EST Subject: My first Venus gooey green come back One Venus in sandy soil turned gooey green ~ I had some dry cow manor in a bag and I put a little, powered, in the middle. My Venus is her snappy self once more. Cousin Clem ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:07:59 -0500 Subject: Re: List Problems? It is you. http://www2.labs.agilent.com/botany/cp/html/cp_lstsv.htm There you go, Michael Manna >From: Michael Vanecek >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: List Problems? >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:41:57 -0800 (PST) > >Is the list still alive? I haven't gotten any messages since December. >If it's me - email me personally since I obviously won't get it from the >list - I can't seem to find the list subscription web page. > >Thanks, >Mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:35:11 +0930 Subject: CPalaeontology I read with interest the theory regarding the introduction of Drosera burmannii to Sth America by Australian migrants. It reminded me of something I read in "The Wollemi Pine" (author James Woodford) that said at one time there were giant Venus Fly Traps growing in central Australia. Can anyone point me to an info source on CP evolution, palaeontology?? For example, I'm curious about how Nepenthes managed to grow in Madagascar. Also, I'd like to know if they ever grew in Antarctica. For those with a general interest in botany, I would recommend looking at the Wollemi Pine site at http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/html/Wollemi.html Initially there were only two stands of trees containing 29 adult plants, all of which are genetically identical, however a third stand has been found. (Happily, those involved don't have to worry too much about collection numbers). Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:00:45 +1100 Subject: NO SUCH THING as D.sessiliFLORA Hi all >To Greg, Miguel, Joe, and everyone, > > > AAARRGH! Let me put an end to this before it goes any further! This >is one of those confusions which just goes on and on and makes me want to >forget this whole numbering system story, especially because I'm always >writing about it here and yet it keeps coming back to haunt me, like the >Friday the 13th movies!! > > There is NO SUCH THING as D.sessiliFLORA. This is a misspelling of >D.sessiliFOLIA. Furthermore, seeds being traded around as " D.sessiliFLORA" >and a few D.sessiliFOLIA are NOT the real D.sessiliFOLIA. THAT is why your >plant does not look like D.burmannii and is not annual, Greg. As Paul would >say, it's one of those red rosetted thingies. African by the way... Sorry to bother you all again with this. If so many people know that this plant is not D. sessili(whatever), why can't someone please tell me what it is????? I think that it's good that it is traded here as D. sessiliflora so at least if we are eventually told what it really is that we can get it right. The photo's will be up and running by Saturday!! That's only two days so hang on and all will be revealed. There's also good photos of other unnamed Drosera as well as mutant Neps. Greg ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:02:52 -0500 Subject: Red rosetty thing Hello list, I was under the impression this was the common name for Drosera capollaris ;-) Steven Stewart Sanford, Fl. USA ################### From: "Steve Alton" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:36:39 -0000 Subject: Re: Seed collecting Dear Phil, > As > far as I know there are also no phytosanitary restrictions regarding seed > when importing into the UK. I suspect you are right in the case of all CP species, but this not universally true. Potato or grape seed is totally prohibited, for instance, and various other crops and their wild relatives need certification. Kew, as a registered quarantine centre, has the power to issue a 'letter of authority' for the import of restricted material. But the whole issue is complicated beyond belief! The form we send to donors has to cover all possible situations. Steve MILLENNIUM SEED BANK Project Steve Alton B.Sc. Seed Donations Officer Seed Conservation Department Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew Wakehurst Place, Ardingly, Haywards Heath West Sussex RH17 6TN, UK Tel direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894119 Fax direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894110 Email: s.alton@rbgkew.org.uk http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/seedbank/msb.html ################### From: Robert Ziemer Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:50:08 -0800 Subject: re: CPalaeontology Kevin Cook wrote: >For those with a general interest in botany, I would recommend looking >at the Wollemi Pine site at >http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/html/Wollemi.html Apparently the URL is case sensitive. Try: http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/HTML/Wollemi.html ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:48:00 -0800 Subject: Re: D. burmannii versus sessilifolia > I've no doubt however that it did come from Asia and not vice-versa, since it seems to be surprisingly unvariable for >such a widespread plant. D.burmannii on the other hand is far more variable (Ivan, I'd love to see pics of this >D.burmannii you said Rob collected and which looks like D.sessilifolia!), which to me suggests that it has had a >longer speciation time and therefore has been around there longer. I use the same thinking to assume that >D.brevifolia came to Brazil from the N rather than vice-versa. Usually larger genetic variability indicates the place or >origin. Look at the recent genetic studies with H.sapiens... >Best Wishes, >Fernando Rivadavia Hi Fernando and all, Sounds like you are suggesting that D. burmannii only made the trip once fairly recently, and that explains less diversity in S. America; very reasonable. I was thinking before that D. sessilifolia has been in S. America a very long time, but has been going back and forth over time and this is why both D. burmannii and D. sessilifolia are genetically compatible. Anyway, what course do you figure the plant travelled? Through Asia and across the Bering Straights to N. American and then south? Hey, I think I just figured it out! How about the species made the trip once during a narrow window of time 12, 000 years ago when the land bridge was open? That would be good to see if you could pick out any difference between that particular form of D. burmanni and D. sessilifolia. I remember how when you looked at my collection you instantly distinguished them and even my hybrid. This form from the Pilliga Scrub NSW I certainly could not tell from D. sessilifolia. It even had the pinkish tinted flower which is more typical in sessilifolia. I only have one photo print of a single plant and have no scanner. I'm sure Robert could scan some for you. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: FOODBAG@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:06:05 EST Subject: Re: D. burmannii versus sessilifolia Maybe seeds were stowed within the coconut fibers when swallows migrating with the coconuts were blown off course, and that way, D. burmannii was spread to South America? I thought I had better say it before Fernando did:) Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:55:26 -0500 Subject: Re: NO SUCH THING as D.sessiliFLORA Dear Greg, > Sorry to bother you all again with this. If so many people know that this > plant is not D. sessili(whatever), why can't someone please tell me what it > is????? I think that it's good that it is traded here as D. sessiliflora so > at least if we are eventually told what it really is that we can get it > right. The photo's will be up and running by Saturday!! That's only two days > so hang on and all will be revealed. There's also good photos of other > unnamed Drosera as well as mutant Neps. Well, since Fernando mentions that it is a South African Drosera, some idea of what it could be comes to mind. Besides for one of the many flat rosetted species from S. A., it could be a hybrid. The best way to tell is to post your photos, but even then some photos don't reveal the details needed for ID... Also, your plant may not be named yet. Some species are traded, but are not yet officially named. Dave Evans ################### From: "Jay Vannini" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:00:06 -0600 Subject: Pinguicula gigantea dormancy? Greetings: I have a nice young plant of this sp. that I obtained from last year that I have growing in a mix of vermiculite and dolomite chips. I was somewhat surprised to see that it continued to grow vigorously through early December, even though most of my other neotropical Pings had long since rosetted. I continued to water it cautiously through the end of December, at which time (and at ca. 15 cm in diameter) it began to show rapid senescence of most of the basal leaves. I stopped watering the plant, and it appears to be in a state of suspended animation - the growing point and the youngest leaves neither growing, nor drying up, nor is there any sign of iminent flowering. Cud anyone on the list give me feedback on whether or not this is normal winter behavior for this sp.? Jay P. ################### From: Andrew Gibbons Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:51:58 +1100 Subject: RE: CPalaeontology Kevin, Yes, there were giant venus flytraps but the size was later found to be due to environment and cultivation as opposed to genetics :-). Before you get excited I'll warn you that I work in the not very cp related world of animal developmental biology so I am nowhere near an expert in evolutionary biology. I did a quick search on Bioabstracts and managed to pull up the following paper: Truswell, E M. & Marchant, N G. (1986) Early Tertiary Pollen of Probable Droseracean Affinity from Central Australia. Special Papers in Palaeontology. 35:161-176. I don't have access to this Journal so I can't tell you too much about the findings. The abstract is as follows: "Fischeripollis halensis sp. nov. is described from the Ulgnamba Lignite in the Hale River Basin, northeast of Alice Springs, central Australia. This unit, on the evidence of a diverse palynomorph assemblage, with some constraints provided by palaeomagnetic dating of deep-weathering profiles, is probably of Middle to Late Eocene age. Abundant rainforest taxa in the pollen spectrum suggest high, uniformly distributed rainfall. The similarity of F. halensis, which occurs either in single grains or in tetrads, to pollen of extant Droseraceae is evident in the proximo-equatorial ring of large apertures, and in the grain wall, which bears processes in two distinct size classes. The strongest resemblance is to pollen of extant Dionaea, the Venus Fly Trap, which occurs today only in the south-eastern United States. The presence of pores which penetrate directly into the main body of the grain, rather than into a system of radiating channels on the proximal face, suggests relationship with the Dionaea lineage rathe I don't know how these results were taken within the appropriate scientific community. Given that sex and development tend to be slower to evolve compaired to other morphological and physiological processes and Australia already has a high degree of Droseraceae representation, including the closely related Aldrovanda, it may not be unthinkable that a prehistoric flytrap existed in Australia. If it was indeed ancestral it would imply Dionaea (or its ancestors) had a distribution over a number of (future) continents. Conversely, the article may simply imply that the species of Fischeripollis in question had some N.American ancestry. I'm not familiar with this plant so I wouldn't attempt to say either way. Hope this helps. Andrew Kevin Cook wrote: > I read with interest the theory regarding the introduction of Drosera > burmannii to Sth America by Australian migrants. > It reminded me of something I read in "The Wollemi Pine" (author James > Woodford) that said at one time there were giant Venus Fly Traps growing in > central Australia. > Can anyone point me to an info source on CP evolution, palaeontology?? For > example, I'm curious about how Nepenthes managed to grow in > Madagascar. Also, I'd like to know if they ever grew in Antarctica. > For those with a general interest in botany, I would recommend looking at > the Wollemi Pine site at > http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/html/Wollemi.html Initially there were only > two stands of trees containing 29 adult plants, all of which are > genetically identical, however a third stand has been found. (Happily, > those involved don't have to worry too much about collection numbers). > Regards, > Kevin Cook > Darwin > Australia ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:33:21 +0000 Subject: flytrap fossils Dear Kevin & Andrew, As a little appetizer for my prospective cp evolution paper (to be submitted to CPN), I paste here what I have summarized on Droseraceae fossils: "Fossil pollen has been attributed to several genera of Droseraceae. A single record from central European Mid Miocene (called Fischeripollis) has been assigned to Dionaea (Krutzsch, 1970). An interesting series of fossil seeds and even leaves (perhaps traps, if the interpretation is correct) could be established since Senonian for Aldrovanda (Degreef, 1997, Schlauer, 1997a), occurring through large parts of temperate Eurasia (which used to have a warmer climate than nowadays, and which lacks Aldrovanda in great parts now) with several different and now extinct species and genera (Saxonipollis). This is in very good consonance with the widely scattered distribution of the recent Aldrovanda vesiculosa throughout the old world, resulting from glacial fragmentation of a formerly continuous range. Droseraceae pollen (Fischeripollis) is represented in the Early Tertiary strata of central Australia (Truswell & Marchant, 1986). Mid Palaeocene pollen specimens from Assam (Cherra formation, Droseridites parvus, Sah & Dutta, 1974) are of uncertain attribution but could also belong to Nepenthes (N. khasiana being at least geographically a very close recent species, v.i.). Drosera pollen has been recorded since Lower Miocene from New Zealand (Mildenhall, 1980). Miocene pollen (as Droserapollis and Droserapites) of somewhat uncertain droseracean affinity has been found in Taiwan (Huang, 1978). Several finds of Tertiary pollen (since Mid Miocene) from Europe have been assigned to either Drosera (Droserapollis) or Nepenthes (Droseridites, Krutzsch, 1985). However, there is little probability the recent species of Drosera existed in Europe before Pliocene (v.i.). Probably, the earlier fossils may be attributed to now extinct lines of Droseraceae or even other families. Anyway, the fossil record of Droseraceae pollen is the richest of any carnivorous plant family, and it testifies a wide distribution at least of the progenitors of Aldrovanda since Late Cretaceous. " And on the question of Antarctic _Nepenthes_: "Possibly of evolutionary significance is the fact that pollen originally assigned to Droseraceae (Droseridites) from the Kerguelen islands has been tentatively transferred to Nepenthes more recently (Krutzsch, 1985). In this context Droseridites parvus from the Mid Palaeocene of Assam (Sah & Dutta, 1974) should be considered as possible Nepenthes pollen. Fossil pollen assigned to Nepenthes has been discovered in the Mid Miocene of north Borneo (Anderson & Muller, 1975), and its presence here (a centre of recent diversity, cf. Schlauer, 2000) is not surprising. But the assignment of European Tertiary pollen to the same genus (Krutzsch, 1985) is at least as puzzling as the dubious Triphyophyllum seed from Siberia (v.i., recalling to some extent a similar discrepancy between fossil record and present distribution in Dipterocarpaceae and Clusiaceae)." ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:11:31 -0800 Subject: Re: CP Paleontology >Can anyone point me to an info source on CP evolution, palaeontology?? For >example, I'm curious about how Nepenthes managed to grow in >Madagascar. Also, I'd like to know if they ever grew in Antarctica. >Kevin Cook >Darwin >Australia Hi Kevin and all, To find such information you would have to look long and hard through journals. From time to time we do here discuss the subject. Last year before you joined was talk about an interesting one. A much televised discovery of a 20, 000 year old frozen wooly mammoth in Siberia was made a couple of years ago. Some scientists had the idea to clone this mammoth to resurrect the species. One of us :-) had a more feasible idea of locating frozen seed preserved in permafrost bogs to possibly bring back extinct CP. This is not really so farfetched, since seed of a few other plant species have in fact been found which were frozen for thousands of years, and these when planted sprouted. Most of us listees felt that nothing really unusual as far as unknown ice age CP species could be found in the arctic region, but Jan Schlauer suggested the best place to look might be Antarctica. Here is an update on the Jarkov Mammoth. On the televised show titled Raising the Mammoth on the Discovery Channel, apparently living plant material was found beneath the frozen mammoth. I saw the program and these too plants looked like some sort of sedge and the other maybe Selaginella. They certainly looked green and alive to me. Coming this March 12, again on the Discovery Channel, will be a program titled Land of the Mammoth. I'm hoping that the plant material found will be more discussed. I don't really expect Drosera, Pings, or Utrics, but this presents interesting food for thought. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:41:09 -0500 Subject: numbering hi everyone-- this may be a bit naive...but why not bar coding? it's logic defies linearity and is much more dynamic than a linear numbering system. gary kong __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: Randall Palmer Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:39:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cow So far so good with the dried stuff, from the cow. If you read about the Venus that came back from slimmy green to snappy and happy. I knew no more slimmy green ~ when the trap no longer looks like to much water ~ because of the dry cow manor you buy at the store ~ sprinkled on the plant ~ was so cool that I went and sprinkled it on all of my CPs. So as far as the plants look ~ looking for any unseen side effects ~ I think the perfect fertilizer has been found. For futher review ~ no gurantees. (My disclaimer) Cousin Clem ################### From: "Richard jobson" Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:27:47 -0000 Subject: D. regia Hi there Drosera growers, I am after D. regia. Can anybody help me out with obtaining this plant? Thanks in advance, Richard. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Andrew Gibbons Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:11:16 +1100 Subject: RE: CPalaeontology Sorry Kevin (and anyone else interested), My cut and paste ability must be lacking. The complete abstract is below: Truswell, E M. & Marchant, N G. (1986) Early Tertiary Pollen of Probable Droseracean Affinity from Central Australia. Special Papers in Palaeontology. 35:161-176. "Fischeripollis halensis sp. nov. is described from the Ulgnamba Lignite in the Hale River Basin, northeast of Alice Springs, central Australia. This unit, on the evidence of a diverse palynomorph assemblage, with some constraints provided by palaeomagnetic dating of deep-weathering profiles, is probably of Middle to Late Eocene age. Abundant rainforest taxa in the pollen spectrum suggest high, uniformly distributed rainfall. The similarity of F. halensis, which occurs either in single grains or in tetrads, to pollen of extant Droseraceae is evident in the proximo-equatorial ring of large apertures, and in the grain wall, which bears processes in two distinct size classes. The strongest resemblance is to pollen of extant Dionaea, the Venus Fly Trap, which occurs today only in the south-eastern United States. The presence of pores which penetrate directly into the main body of the grain, rather than into a system of radiating channels on the proximal face, suggests relationship with the Dionaea lineage rath -- Andrew Gibbons wrote -- > Kevin, Yes, there were giant venus flytraps but the size was later > found to be due to environment and cultivation as opposed to genetics > :-). Before you get excited I'll warn you that I work in the not very > cp related world of animal developmental biology so I am nowhere near > an expert in evolutionary biology. I did a quick search on > Bioabstracts and managed to pull up the following paper: Truswell, E > M. & Marchant, N G. (1986) Early Tertiary Pollen of Probable > Droseracean Affinity from Central Australia. Special Papers in > Palaeontology. 35:161-176. I don't have access to this Journal so I > can't tell you too much about the findings. The abstract is as > follows: "Fischeripollis halensis sp. nov. is described from the > Ulgnamba Lignite in the Hale River Basin, northeast of Alice Springs, > central Australia. This unit, on the evidence of a diverse > palynomorph assemblage, with some constraints provided by > palaeomagnetic dating of deep-weathering profiles, is probably of > Middle to Late Eocene age. Abundant rainforest taxa in the pollen > spectrum suggest high, uniformly distributed rainfall. The similarity > of F. halensis, which occurs either in single grains or in tetrads, to > pollen of extant Droseraceae is evident in the proximo-equatorial ring > of large apertures, and in the grain wall, which bears processes in > two distinct size classes. The strongest resemblance is to pollen of > extant Dionaea, the Venus Fly Trap, which occurs today only in the > south-eastern United States. The presence of pores which penetrate > directly into the main body of the grain, rather than into a system of > radiating channels on the proximal face, suggests relationsh! ip with > the Dionaea lineage rathe I don't know how these results were taken > within the appropriate scientific community. Given that sex and > development tend to be slower to evolve compaired to other > morphological and physiological processes and Australia already has a > high degree of Droseraceae representation, including the closely > related Aldrovanda, it may not be unthinkable that a prehistoric > flytrap existed in Australia. If it was indeed ancestral it would > imply Dionaea (or its ancestors) had a distribution over a number of > (future) continents. Conversely, the article may simply imply that > the species of Fischeripollis in question had some N.American > ancestry. I'm not familiar with this plant so I wouldn't attempt to > say either way. Hope this helps. Andrew ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:15:15 -0600 Subject: Re: D. burmannii versus sessilifolia FOODBAG@aol.com wrote: > swallows migrating with the coconuts > African swallows? ################### From: CMDodd@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:12:51 EST Subject: Re: Nepenthtes, climbing or hanging In a message dated 1/23/01 5:10:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: << I have been growing a few Nepenthes plants in my house by the window, hanging from the ceiling. The plants are healthy, growing and pitchering. Some of these plants have grown a lot, with vines hanging 2-3 feet below the pot. I have read that Nepenthes tendrils need to grab on something to climb. If I just let the vines hang, are they likely to brake off because of the weight (I have seen pictures of wild Nepenthes with vines hanging several feet)? What is likely to happen, given that there is nothing for the tendrils to climb on? Thanks in advance, Michael Pagoulatos >> Dear Michael, It is possible that plants can get so heavy from the weight of many pitchers that the vines can bend and crack, but they rarely break. Climbing vines are somewhat elastic to allow for movement of the supporting vegetation. You do not mention the species or hybird, but some plants like N. alata can produce great numbers of traps of considerable weight, but of modest size and with rather flexible stems. Others like N. rafflesiana have much stiffer stems and can crack more easily. Plants allowed to hang as you describe will often produce basal shoots near or below the soil level and then as the hanging stems age the plant may kill the hanging portion off (recycling nutrients) and produce larger new growth, eventually repeating the process again and again. When you see basals form and develop five to seven good leaves, you can always make cuttings of the hanging stems. The climbing stem of most species will still often produce the coiling tendril, and intermediate and upper pitcher forms even though the plant is not actually climbing. In some aroids like philodendrons, climbing (actually contact with a vertical surface) will produce upper leaf forms but I don't believe this is necessary with Nepenthes. Cliff ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:52:23 +1100 Subject: D. sessili(aliciae) New idea! Thanks for all the personal replies/thoughts. I've come to the next stage. I couldn't find a photo of my D. aliciae to put on my album but I will soon. I think that this sessiliflora plant I have could be a D. aliciae, purhaps the yellow-green leaf form? The other one (the real one) would be the green leaf form. I saw these two names in the CP total listing. Is this true? Greg ################### From: gbwong@iname.com (Geoff Wong) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 22:10:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: BACPS Meeting Meeting: Bay Area Carnivorous Plant Society Time: 12:00 Noon Place: Randall Museum, San Francisco Program: Ron Parsons: "Pings Plus..." For those in the San Francisco Bay Area, there will be a BACPS meeting on Saturday, February 3. Ron Parsons, a well-known local photographer, will be giving a slide show of botanical photos and discussing his indoor CP growing techniques. If you are not already on the BACPS Newsletter distribution list and want to receive future editions, please send a request to bill_weaver@hp.com. ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:03:33 -0500 Subject: Lowry prices Just double checking that Allan Lowry's prices in his catolog are in Australian dollars. Thanks David Atlanta ################### From: S.Ippenberger@t-online.de (Ippenberger) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:00:35 +0100 Subject: Re: D. regia Richard, I could send you seeds of D. regia I harvested last summer (August/September) and I made root-cuttings last week while repotting some of my plants that will make it to plantlets within the next three months. What are you interested in and where do you live? Best regards Stefan, Europe ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:06:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Lowry prices In message , Mellard, David writes > >Just double checking that Allan Lowry's prices in his catolog are in >Australian dollars. > Yes. You can pay him an equivalent rate in US Dollars cash using the current rate from American Express or Thomas Cook. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:06:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Pinguicula gigantea dormancy? Jay > >I have a nice young plant of this sp. that I obtained from last year that I >have growing in a mix of vermiculite and dolomite chips. I was somewhat >surprised to see that it continued to grow vigorously through early >December, even though most of my other neotropical Pings had long since >rosetted. I continued to water it cautiously through the end of December, at >which time (and at ca. 15 cm in diameter) it began to show rapid senescence >of most of the basal leaves. I stopped watering the plant, and it appears to >be in a state of suspended animation - the growing point and the youngest >leaves neither growing, nor drying up, nor is there any sign of iminent >flowering. > >Cud anyone on the list give me feedback on whether or not this is normal >winter behavior for this sp.? > P. gigantea is a close relative of P. agnata and like this species the plant does not form a non-carnivorous "dormant" state but does have a period of reduced growth and rosette size. So yes, this does sound like a normal growth patter for this species. In most Mexican Pinguicula species the term dormancy is mis-applied anyway since most species do not enter a true dormant state. Rather they enter a xerophytic state forming a tight rosette of non-carnivorous leaves. While in this state the plants continue to grow albeit at a very reduced rate. A few species produce a very tight rosette of leaves completely buried underground - very much like a bulb and may be considered to have a dormant state. Many species produce hairs on the surface of the xerophytic leaves the purpose of which is to trap moisture from early morning mists - virtually the only moisture the plants get at this season. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:09:31 +0100 Subject: New list online Hi CPers, I just want to announce that our new pricelist is online now both as a downloadable file and as entries in the CP-online-shop. Besides many price changes (lower prices) we now offer a variety of ant ferns (Lecanopteris) and some other news. If interested, just have a look. Bye Andreas ********************************* WISTUBA - Exotic Plants Mudauer Ring 227 68259 Mannheim Germany www.wistuba.com ********************************* ################### From: Mike Froese Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:41:26 -0600 Subject: Problem Earth worms? Hi CPers! I'm getting into composting household waste and was wondering whether anyone has had any problems with specific species of worms when feeding them to your plants. I've fed many sarr.'s the local species of earth worms here in Manitoba, Canada with no problems (they quite like them), but I was wondering if certain other species that tend to eat faster and are more aggressive would damage the traps while being digested. Any advice or experience to share? Mike ################### From: "Steve" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:10:53 -0600 Subject: How do I join the listserv? I would like to join and be able to post messages. Thanks Steven Strickland [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:37:02 -0200 Subject: RE: CPalaeontology and D. sessili(aliciae)/ burmannii and their origins To all, About ancient CPs and their fossils, there was a very good series of articles in CPN a few years back by John Degreef. As for D.sessili(aliciae)... > Well, since Fernando mentions that it is a South African Drosera, some idea of what it could be comes to mind. Besides for one of the many flat rosetted species from S. A., it could be a hybrid. The best way to tell is to post your photos, but even then some photos don't reveal the details needed for ID... Also, your plant may not be named yet. Some species are traded, but are not yet officially named. The taxonomy of "red rosetted thingies" in Africa is still quite confusing. Pay me a few years of botanizing in southern Africa and then I'll tell you what it is... :):):) >Sounds like you are suggesting that D. burmannii only made the trip once fairly recently, and that explains less diversity in S. America; very reasonable. I was thinking before that D. sessilifolia has been in S. America a very long time, but has been going back and forth over time and this is why both D. burmannii and D. sessilifolia are genetically compatible. I think it's much more likely that it made the trip only once, than that it went back and forth several times (can you imagine D.anglica jumping to Hawaii and back??). And if it was going back and forth over such a large distance, you'd imagine it would be doing at least the same thing in Australia and Asia, and thus the populations there would be morphologically more uniform as well. As far as I know, D.burmannii in Asia are rather uniform, suggesting that they also originated from Australia, where all the variability seems to occur. The populations have to be more or less isolated reproductively over long periods of time for diversity to occur. If they were jumping back and forth often, they would be exchanging DNA, making the populations overall more uniform. Isolation causes diversity, and eventually speciation. We know they are not reproductively isolated, since the various forms of D.burmannii and D.sessilifolia do seem to hybridize, so it can only be assumed that their isolation is geographic. And probably recent, since they have not yet become reproductively isolated. >Anyway, what course do you figure the plant travelled? Through Asia and across the Bering Straights to N. American and then south? Hey, I think I just figured it out! How about the species made the trip once during a narrow window of time 12, 000 years ago when the land bridge was open? Then why is it not present further N? Surely there are decent conditions for it in Central America and southern N.America. I believe instead that D.sessilifolia must have originated from a plant which hitched a ride with a bird or wind over the Pacific or maybe through Africa (though if it's present anywhere in Africa is still a mystery). Remember the seeds of these plants are very tiny. Furthermore, during the last ice age, most of Brazil was covered in savanas, while the rainforests were reduced to a few pockets. Savanas are the perfect habitat for D.sessilifolia, suggesting why it's so widespread nowadays. Once the ice age was through, rainforests seem to have isolated D.sessilifolia N and S of the Amazon. A single and recent colonizing event would help explain the uniformity of D.sessilifolia, having originated from a small genetic stock. Just look at the N.Hemisphere species like D.anglica and D.rotundifolia, how widespread and uniform they are. These are believed to have spread widely at the end of the last ice age, only a few thousand years ago. if I remember well. That's why there is not much diversity... yet. A few thousand years is apparently not enough for them to diversify into new species or even varieties, but given time... If there really is a D.burmannii form which is very similar or identical to D.sessilifolia, it could be an indication of where the D.sessilifolia stock came from. The good news is that the solution to this puzzle is within our reach, we have the technology to solve it! The genetic tools are there to test this!! If anybody is looking for a good project for a master or PhD thesis involving CP genetics and evolution, this is it. All you'd have to do is find one or more very variable genes to sequence or try some other genetic fingerprinting like AFLP or RAPD. The resulting phylogenetic tree would indicate which Australian (or Asian?) population was closest to D.sessilifolia. The more populations sampled, the better. It would even be possible to identify which are the most ancient branches in this group, i.e. the most "primitive" burmannii/ sessilifolia. It would be interesting to see on this family tree if D.sessilifolia represents an old branch inserted below all the present branches of D.burmannii, showing they had a common origin, but not exactly where or when... OR, if the D.sessilifolia branch is positioned in the middle of the D.burmannii branches, showing it originated from a branch of the tree still represented by living populations, with "older" and "younger" inserted above and below it. The latter would be my guess. Or else we'd expect to see the same variability with D.sessilifolia in S.America as we see with D.burmannii in Australia. Unless D.sessilifolia suffered a genetic bottleneck at some time recently, nearly going extinct, but then later recovering from the few remaining populations. I'm sure it would be really easy to obtain D.burmannii specimens from several different sites through our numerous CPers in Australia. I'm also sure someone in Asia could obtain at least one form from there too. And I'll be certainly willing to send a few specimens of D.sessilifolia from different locations too. All you need are dried leaves and often hebarium specimens are sufficient. Volunteers???? > That would be good to see if you could pick out any difference between that particular form of D. burmanni and D. sessilifolia. I remember how when you looked at my collection you instantly distinguished them and even my hybrid. This form from the Pilliga Scrub NSW I certainly could not tell from D. sessilifolia. It even had the pinkish tinted flower which is more typical in sessilifolia. I only have one photo print of a single plant and have no scanner. I'm sure Robert could scan some for you. I'll ask him. Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:58:31 -0200 Subject: Trinidad drosera and D.sessilifolia / burmannii again To all, > >Just so Paul does not have to do anything undignified like name a couple of > > Drosera species( :0), I looked it up and the two Drosera species are D. > >intermedia and D. kaieteurensis. FYI. > > And had I replied, I would have got it wrong! But just to step out of character for a second - the intermedia > are very nice (but still red and rosetty) and everywhere (or anywere that is wet enough)! Who cares about D.intermedia when you've got D.kaieteurensis to admire?!?!?! To put it in YOUR "language" Paul, it's like wasting time with a common P.moranensis (which is nonetheless beautiful) when you've got a P.antarctica nearby -- smaller, more or less common looking and certainly not as beauiful as P.moranensis, but much rarer and less understood! > >(right now in Santiago, Chile... and guess what I found over the weekend?!?!) > > Oh goodie goodie goodie! Surely all this excitement can't be for a red rosetty thing? I could almost start > getting excited! More on this later... I'd written all about it while in Chile (I just returned last night) but LOST THE MESSAGE while trying to mail it! Damn webmail! So I'll have to write it from scratch again.... > However, if anyone visits the Paramos of Venezuela/Colombia, I really would get excited about a quaint > little D, D, D (hang about, I've a problem with using this word), Drosera, that grows in them thar hills. Now > there's a statement noboday ever expected to get from me!!! Well believe it or not even I would be interestd in the P.... Ping.... Pinguic... Pinguicula (ah, finally!) which grow in the Venezuelan Andes (did you see the recent pictures by our Japanese friends??), not to mention the mysterious D.cendeensis which I am dying to see in the wild. But first, I think I would prefer to explore tepuy-land a bit more, where there are several unusual Drosera to study (whereas in the Andes there is possibly only D.cendeensis -- and recent Japanese visitors have not been able to find it...). > This may be true *within* S America, but is definitely not the case > from a global point of view. In contrast to the two species you > mentioned, there are three others that extend to N America, viz. _D. > intermedia_, _capillaris_, and _brevifolia_. Of these, the first also > occurs in the Old World, and therefore, this is the unchallenged, > most widespread of all S American _Drosera_. OBVIOUSLY, I meant *within* S.America! Picky, picky.... :):) > While I agree that _D. sessilifolia_ might have come from the East > (of Gondwana), humans do not need to have been involved (BTW: humans > did not exist when Gondwana was *one* continent!). And who says they spread over Gondwana? D.anglica sure didn't need a land bridge to reach Hawaii. And how many million years ago are we talking about, when they were all still connected? Surely if D.sessilifolia had been here so long we'd see more variability, considering how widespread it is, just as we see variability within D.burmannii in Australia. My gues is that they jumped over oceans much more recently. > The most striking > feature in the recent distribution of Thelocalyx is its apparent > lack in Africa, if it is assumed to be an old Gonwanan element (it > is quite certainly an old element in the genus: "primitive" pollen > type, 5 carpels). It might be an old Gondwanan element, but might not have left descendents elsewhere than in Australia, until a recent spread to Asia and S.America. A similar thing is seen with D.indica, which is widespread from Australia to Africa, yet most of the diversity seems to be within Australia. Herbarium I saw from Africa all seemed to represent a single form, very similar to plants I saw in Goa, India. In Asia one finds white and pink-fld forms, but not orange fls, or maroon plants, or such variation in plant size/robustness, or even those with the red cobra-like stamens Allen discovered in N Australia (and which I believe he'll probably separate as new species/varieties in the future). Again I think this suggests an Australian origin with recent spread elsewhere. And like D.sessilifolia/ burmannii, D.indica is mostly annual, which is probably an advantage for any new coloniser. > I have written "apparent" (for those who did not > notice it), because I think Planchon (1848) mentions a specimen of > _D. burmannii_ from Sierra Leone (W Africa)! This specimen (an > Afzelius collection) is not mentioned by Diels or Hamet nor by any > subsequent author. I have not seen the specimen (it might be at P or > K), so I do not really know what it is. > > It would perhaps be interesting (for our British or French > colleagues) to look for the Afzelius specimen and maybe (for those > who visit the region) to look for further specimens of strange > rosetted things in W Africa. No doubt!!! It would be great if one of the European CPers could go spend a day at Kew or Paris trying to uncover these African specimens and phtographing it for all of us. Of course there is always the problem of herbarium curator-bureaucrats who often won't let you in if you're not some famous botanist with good connections, when herbaria should be treated like any other library, open to anyone who wishes to study its archives. I never had too much problem, including during my brief visits to both Kew and Paris several years back (before I knew about these Afzelius specimens), since I wrote beforehand and had contacts there. And I guess because it would be more difficult to say "NO" to someone coming from another continent, even when your contact is not there (which is often the case). So if someone does take up the idea to try and uncover these Afzelius specimens, be sure to try and contact the curators at these institutions first. Furthermore, these places are often "temporarily closed for visitation" for one reason or another (usually reform) -- another reason to inform yourself before appearing at the door. > I read with interest the theory regarding the introduction of Drosera > burmannii to Sth America by Australian migrants. Before this becomes blown out of proportion accidentally: it's a joke, it's NOT real. These aussies came to S.America AFTER D.sessilifolia was discovered. OK???? Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:00:06 -0200 Subject: Numbering again To all, > Sounds like this is a job for Super..., I mean ICPS. Maybe they could > propose a universal numbering system. Isn't it great that we have a bunch > of dedicated volunteers that little folks can propose things to. > That way, all of us who want to do this can use the same system. No universal numbering system is necessary. Everyone could make his own, using his/her name/initials plus a number. For example I could label my seeds: _Drosera graminifolia_ Diamantina, Minas Gerais state, Rivadavia 1013 _Genlisea uncinata_ Catoles, Bahia state, Rivadavia 908 _Utricularia campbelliana_, Pico da Neblina, Amazonas state, Rivadavia et al. 649 The numbers would correspond (they're ficticious in this case) to my herbarium specimens, which are all deposited here at the University of Sao Paulo. If anybody was REALLY interested, they could look them up. If not, then just the number itself and collector would be sufficient to identify the plants in cultivation as having a common origin. Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:01:41 -0200 Subject: Sarracenia evolution and survival To all, > > He has found plants of S. flava > > growing in a semi-dormant state in the summer. The plant were growing in > > well developed planted (not natural) pine forest and had plenty of non- > > carnivorous phylodia leaves but no pitchers. Randy estimates the age of > > the pine trees to be about fifteen years. The assumption is that > > probably for the first five years the Sarracenia were able to grow more > > or less normally before the trees grew tall enough to block out the > > sunlight. Therefore the plants had probably been in this "dormant" state > > for the remainder of the time until Randy had found the plants. He > > removed a plant to see if it would revert to normal growth once given > > sufficient light - it did. In August I was in Florida with Bob McMorris and one of the wonderful Sarracenia sites we visited was full of huge S.leucophylla with extra wide "mouths". Next to these was a shady area full of S.leuco growing under trees (natural, not planted). There were only phyllodia, thousands of them all over. One or two sickly pitchers maybe. Call it what you want, semi-dormancy or whatever, but they were "existing" if you don't want to call that normal survival. I've see that with other CPs here in Brazil, where they were growing in less than optimal conditions and were apparently only hanging on, growing really ugly, but nonetheless surviving. So how long Sarracenia can grow as phyllodia only I guess depends on how much nutrition it can get from the soil to supplement photosynthesis. Maybe in shadier conditions such as the ones above, maybe the extra organic matter from the dead tree leaves and the possibly drier (less acidic?) soil permit the phyllodia-state plants to absorb more nutrients through their roots than plants growing in the more open, boggier (more acidic?) areas. > > I suspect that at least some Sarracenia species are able to make this > > change in growth type as a means of survival when conditions > > deteriorate. It is likely that this was originally a means of surviving > > periods of drought and in fact I saw this sort of shut down in growth > > last fall in the south where the area had been subject to very low > > rainfall throughout the area last summer. Many areas of S. leucophylla > > were observed with nothing but phylodia growth. At other areas plants > > had produced fall pitchers but these were reduced in height. The most > > interesting areas were plants that had apparently aborted all pitcher > > growth in favour of seed production. > I agree. Waiting for some kind of disturbance, such as fire. Although > this can get a lot more complicated. In natural systems, even in the > absence of frequent fire, you can get small natural gaps with full sun > surrounded by much more shaded plants. Exactly! This sounds like the perfect strategy to survive droughts or periods of years inbetween natural fires when the vegetation gets too thick. > > that has puzzled me for some time now is how the apparently related > > genera of Sarracenia, Heliamphora and Darlingtonia became so widely > > dispersed from one another? There are apparently impenetrable barriers > > separating the populations - mountains, deserts and sea! Of course these > > barriers may be geologically recent events but even so the distance > > between these genera is impressive on its own. Add to that the fact that > > the tepuis are very ancient pieces of uplifted sandstone and have their > > origins in Africa. Nothing unusual about this, especially if you consider how many millions of years ago these 3 genera had a common ancestor. Surely lots has happened since, climate-wise at least. Maybe they originated in S.America, maybe in N, or maybe even outside the Americas but left no living relatives elsewhere. Just look at Aldrovanda and Dionaea. One occurs in the new world and the other in the old world. Where did they originate, where was their common ancestor? The related fossil pollen of Fischeripollis halensis is from Australia. Who knows?! One could go on and on speculating about this, but there is certainly nothing unusual about the geographic isolation of the 3 Sarraceniaceae genera, especially if you consider that there are SPECIES which are more geographically isolated, like U.gibba, which is widespread throughout the tropics, or D.rotundifolia which is widespread in the N Hemisphere, or N.mirabilis which seems to like island hopping. If a species can make it across oceans and continents, than certainly genera can eventually be separated by time and evolution across the same barriers. Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:41:00 +0000 Subject: D. linearis Hi, I have some seed of D. linearis that needs sowing soon (while its still cold). Does anyone have any direct experience of suitable soils to use for this species, or am I in true experimental country? Having seen the marl bogs for myself I would be very surprised if they would even germinate in anything based on regular peat. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:56:33 -0500 Subject: Re: How do I join the listserv? check out this site. http://www2.labs.agilent.com/botany/cp/html/cp_lstsv.htm Michael Manna >From: "Steve" >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: How do I join the listserv? >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:19:26 -0800 (PST) > >I would like to join and be able to post messages. Thanks Steven >Strickland > >[HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: "Chris Hind" Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 20:03:13 -0800 Subject: on nepenthes here is a perplexing question... how do you keep ants away from nepenthes when they have glads to attract them? I'm getting fed up with scale. Those bastardly argentine ants constantly cover one species of my nepenthes with scale (samia says anamensis others say mirabilis). I dont have time to swap its leaves with qtips anymore. Anyone else have any suggestions as how to combat this problem? also what are people's successes/failures with using pure perlite? I've been considering making a switch to pure perlite with a fine layer of peat or live sphagnum on top of rooted nepenthes cuttings. Is this a decent way to grow nepenthes? I was growing tired of them rotting in the pot with the peat. i was also wondering if perlite may be my solution to the ants as well. See they seem to enjoy nesting in the pot once they realize the plant feeds them. Will they or will they not nest in perlite? ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 05:00:13 EST Subject: Re: Now is the time to renew or join the ICPS! Hello everybody! this is a little reminder that now is the ideal time to renew your ICPS membership, or join. If you get your form in the first week of February there will be no interruption in your CPN, and you'll get your March issue right on time. If you're not now a member, why not join. You'll get four issues of the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter, your best source for information on horticulture, botany, and happenings in the CP world; your membership helps support this listserver, our award winning website, and the ICPS conservation initiatives. You'll also be able to order seed from the ICPS seedbank. To join just fill out one of the forms available at : < http://www.carnivorousplants.org/join/joinnew.html > When you send your form in, include $20 U.S. for those in the U.S.A, Canada, and Mexico; $25 U.S. for all other countries. I'm very happy to report that Cindy Slezak, our new secretary, has made major changes in the whole membership process, and she has eliminated all the problems that used to delay enrollment. The CPN back issues have been moved and reorganized and we now fulfill those orders very quickly too. Regular readers already know that John Brittnacher has adopted the ICPS Seedbank and you can view its contents at the ICPS website : < http://www.carnivorousplants.org/seedbank/seedmain1.html > The ICPS will be making great strides in the year 2001; be a part of it! Thank you, and Cheers, David O. Gray ICPS President ################### From: david ahrens Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:16:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ants on Nepenthes There is an old remedy for ants that you could use to get rid of them. Mix one part borax with one part icing sugar, when you want to use this, mix with a little water to form a cream. The ants will take this back to their nest and it will destroy it completely, with no harm to anything else. I would just like to mention that in the UK, we are not allowed to use a chemical in the garden unless it is approved, but these ingredients are used in an ant destroyer that you can buy, I think that is unlikely that the police will turn up at your house! Regards David Ahrens ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:38:39 +1100 Subject: D. burmanni 'Pilliga Red' Hi all Now that I have that photo page going I can add a photo of the Pilliga Red form for those who wish to see it, unless someone is able to produce one in the next 5 days. Unfortunately I have just had printed a roll of film (no digital camera) so will have to take the photos and have them printed before adding them to the album. There is two D. burmanni photos on there from other locations if anyone is interested. I did add a photo of D. pygmaea with SEVEN petals!!! today. This was the only flower seen with more than four petals, on recent field trips around Sydney. Let me know what you think. Thanks Greg Bourke EDITOR/SEED BANK MANAGER for the Carnivorous Plant Society of New South Wales Check out the web page @ www.carnivorousplants.asn.au email the society @ carnivorousplantsnsw@hotmail.com My Photos @ http://photos.yahoo.com/sydneycarnivorous ################### From: S.Ippenberger@t-online.de (Ippenberger) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:43:46 +0100 Subject: D. linearis Hi, I have germinated D. linearis this spring more or less successfully. In autumn 1999 I obtained a few seeds (thank you again!). Half of the seeds I sowed onto a mixture of 50/50 peat/(quarz)sand, the other half onto a 1cm layer of sphagnum knowing that this is not the natural medium. Leaving the pots outside they were frozen down to -15C several times. In spring 2000 some seedlings germinated and made clearly visible winterbuds in autumn 2000 though their growth rate was much behind the other three European Droseras in my outdoor bog. I think about repotting them this spring. Any comments for a better growth medium? Stefan ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:26:09 -0000 Subject: Fraud warning OK. Hoping this is not a variation on the old false virus warning , here's a warning to all who have been bidding for CP antique prints and may then pay by Pay Pal. "Paypal account holders have been receiving an email that says someone has paid them money. The name usually used is Betty Hill. There is a link provided to log in to their account and collect the money. The web page that comes up looks like paypal. The victim then enters their ID and password. That is the purpose of the scam. The victim is NOT on the paypal site but on a look-alike. They have now given their id and password to a crook who will then log in to their paypal account and take whatever they can. If you get this email, do NOT use the link to go to your account. Always enter the URL yourself or pull it down from your favorites. If you have already gone to the fake Paypal from the email, go to the real one and change your password immediately. Check that there are no unfamiliar transactions." I've only sent this to this listserve because I know CP'ers do bid for CP related stuff off eBay and may well being using the eBay Pay Pal service. Now you've been warned! Let me know if anyone knows this is a false warning. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:57:43 -0000 Subject: Trinidad drosera and D.sessilifolia / burmannii again Have you noticed that even the true botanists are now referring to Drosera as "red rosetted thingies"?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! meanwhile, a certain person wrote: " Who cares about D.intermedia when you've got D.kaieteurensis to admire?!?!?! To put it in YOUR "language" Paul, it's like wasting time with a common P.moranensis (which is nonetheless beautiful) when you've got a P.antarctica nearby -- smaller, more or less common looking and certainly not as beauiful as P.moranensis, but much rarer and less understood!" Touche! Actually, when i realised that I'd actually spent many a happy hour squashing millions of D.kaieteurensis plants underfoot in Trinidada, I breathed a heavy sigh! Despite all my printed words, i'm perfectly capable of admiring a rarity and D.kaieteurensis is certainly not another spatulata. So the joke is on me this time! >(whereas in the Andes there is possibly >only D.cendeensis -- and recent Japanese visitors have not been able to find >it...). Nobody ever finds it. The herbarium at Merida has it but no-one recorded exactly from where! They've been out to find it again and can never remember where it is. The truth is out there, somewhere, but I've tried looking for the thing which is about .75 cm big and grows in black soil smothered in long grass!!! Not an easy thing to find! Oops - please would everyone disregard any suggestion that I actually did go looking for a red rosetty thingy!!! :-) Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: "Steve" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:12:20 -0600 Subject: New member with a question on S.flava. Hello fellow cpers, My name is Steven Strickland and am an avid grower of cp. I live in west central Alabama. I do have a question. Does anyone know where I can purchase an "all red" Sarracenia flava? It is sometimes called (accurate or inaccurate?) "Claret" in Europe I believe. I have most of the other varieties of S.flava. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have S.flava "Red tube" or "Rubricorpora". Thanks you very much! Steve [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Steve" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:19:10 -0600 Subject: new to listserv with a S.flava Question. Hello fellow cpers, My name is Steven Strickland and am an avid grower of cp. I live in west central Alabama. I do have a question. Does anyone know where I can purchase an "all red" Sarracenia flava? It is sometimes called (accurate or inaccurate?) "Claret" in europe I believe. I have most of the other varieties of S.flava. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have S.flava "Red tube" or "Rubricorpora". Thanks you very much! Steve [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:34:39 -0500 Subject: Greenhouse construction Hello everyone, I have a question about greenhuose coverings(roof). I am going to purchase a hard plastic covering for my greenhouse I am building. What I have decided on is Palruf or Suntuf. I am not using sheet plastic(visquine) because we all have to keep some kind of look that doesn't upset our spouses. My question is : How important is 'harmful' UV to CPs? (The wording on the package is calling them harmful in respect to humans, not plants) One type of plastic omits them almost 100% while the other says it is good for UV protectioon. I do not want to deny my cps any type of light since this will be outside. Does anyone use this stuff on their houses? What is sheet plastic made of? Does it omit UV? More that one question I know, Thanks Michael Manna _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:08:31 +0100 Subject: Re: D. linearis Hi Phil, my plants germinated on pure peat. D. Schnell reports on his book that in cultivation they can be grown on pure peat or on acid peat/sand mix. I found it is true and after a few years, having started from seed, I succeeded in having one flowering plant last year. Schnell reports it can grow in shallow water if it is not acid: in fact I had my best plant growing outdoors on pure peat and when last spring I watered it too much and the water level stayed high for several days the plant rotted. It grew in full sun together with D. anglica, D. rotundifolia, D. intermedia and D. x obovata, none of which suffered from the high water level; so I supposed the acidity was the cause. It seems however it is not a very difficult plant to grow: slightly more difficult than D. anglica, but very far from D. arcturi and D. stenopetala! Kindest regards Filippo Tassara ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:08:41 +0100 Subject: Aldrovanda and Dionaea >Just look at Aldrovanda and Dionaea. One occurs in the new world >and the other in the old world. Where did they originate, where was their >common ancestor? This argument appears from time to time; but is there any study which proves that Aldrovanda and Dionaea both originated from a same plant with closing traps? Couldn't they have originated from the genus Drosera (or what it was in the past) in different times? Aldrovanda and Dionaea do not seem very similar apart from their way of catching prey. Filippo Tassara ################### From: Robin Dauber Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:59:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: BUGS! Happy New Year(?) everyone, I know this topic has been covered a thousand times, but I just spent my Sunday unpotting and blasting with water a variety of succulents invaded by Mealy bugs. What really works? I've been using alcohol swabs...I suspect the reason things got this bad. I want to avoid pesticides if at all possible, so as not to release even more half-life garbage into the world. I am weighing just throwing out plants and helping to keep the nursery business going, but losing some of these would be a shame...a couple of older Ariocarpus among them. I plan to keep these bare root, check bi-weekly, and blast with water weekly. I guess my questions are as follows; Will a watered down alcohol spray covering the whole plant help? Will it damage the plant? Is inhaling it just as bad as pesticide anyway? Dish soap? Insecticidal soap? Do either work if you miss a single square centimeter of surface area? What about predatorial bugs? Are they practical pricewise? Available? How often do they need to be reapplied? Can they be released indoors without them turning up in my bed and shorts? Where on earth do they come from?! I have heard Africa to the Caribbean and up into the Southern US. Are they naturalized to the Midwest of North America...Do I reinfect every summer when I place my plants outside? Maybe if we knew where they were native to, we could combat them more easily. Anyway, any ideas are appreciated, John in Chicago ################### From: Andrew Gibbons Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:02:26 +1100 Subject: RE: CPalaeontology Kevin, Sorry again. My PC doesn't want to co-operate. Hopefully the part of the abstrat that was cut out will appear below: The presence of pores which penetrate directly into the main body of the grain, rather than into a system of radiating channels on the proximal face, suggests a relationship with the Dionaea lineage rather than with that of Drosera. F.halensis, however, differs differs in detail from the pollen of extant Dionaea muscipula. This is the oldest occurrence of this pollen morphotype. ################### From: "Wubs" Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:28:43 -0500 Subject: D. Linearis Hi, Phil! Back in the 1970's, I was a "guru" of Ontario CPs. Adrian Slack (see the acknowledgement for JIM KOROLAS) even got my input on S. purpurea purpurea and D. linearis. As to growing D. linearis (and germinating seeds of): Adults and seeds thrive in 75% peatmoss and 25% sand. Seeds: Keep them on the drier side of damp (I guess we could say moist). Make sure you freeze them solid for at least 4 weeks (though I often froze mine for 3 months). Then, they need to stay cold for at least 6 weeks (8 would be better). After you take them out of the fridge, let them sit in a nice and sunny location with at minimum 5 hours of direct exposure. You should see your babies in about 3 weeks and they should be really noticable after 4 weeks. Adults (and about a month after seeds germinate): Wet. Really, really, damp. Excessively moist. Did I emphasize that the should not be anything other than wet? I used a plastic container (an old cottage cheese tub) with a hole punched in the bottom with a small nail (about a 1/4 of an inch wide) and left this in a saucer. I'd water the plant until water seeped out. Then I'd leave it standing that way until the water in the saucer evaporated and I would top it up. Hope this helps! -jk [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Brewer Charles E PHDN Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 08:19:47 -0500 Subject: RE: New member with a question on S.flava. Steve, Try contacting Phil Sheridan. He has everything you can think of in regards to Sarrs. His email address is as follows: www.pitcherplant.org . Good luck, Charles Brewer > Does anyone know where I can purchase an "all > red" Sarracenia flava? It is sometimes called (accurate or > inaccurate?) "Claret" in Europe I believe. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: NAVSEA CDSA Dam Neck email addresses have changed to 'user@navseadn.navy.mil'. Please update your address books accordingly. ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:36:31 EST Subject: New e-mail address Hi Everyone, Hope it is a excellent new year for all CP growers everywhere. Just wanted to drop a note saying I changed my e-mail address, and I can be reached at this new address for all CP related stuff. If you know me(sorry), make a change to your address book. If you don't know me, feel free to e-mail me and say "hi." Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:14:30 +0000 Subject: Re: D. linearis Many thanks to everyone who replied to my D. linearis question. It seems that the consensus of experience is that this species will grow okay on a peat and sand mix. Having seen where they grow in habitat I find this quite surprising, especially as there are plenty of acid peat bogs in the area as well but not a single D. linearis grows there. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: John Milligan Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:34:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [Fat-Plants] BUGS! At 04:59 PM 28/01/01 -0600, Robin Dauber wrote, in part: >I know this topic has been covered a thousand times, but I just spent my >Sunday unpotting and blasting with water a variety of succulents invaded by >Mealy bugs. What really works? I've been using alcohol swabs...I suspect the >reason things got this bad. [snip] Mealy bug infestations are really a chronic problem for those who keep a variety of plants and continue to get new ones. In my experience, it is impossible to kill them completely with any procedure, but I get reasonable control by alternate spraying with soap solutions (1% by weight of any soft potassium salt soap is OK - it should not be scented and I like the soft laundry soaps the best - if in doubt, use Safer's) and then alternate with an alcohol/ammonia/water mix. (I use denatured ethanol and household ammonia - 1 part each by volume with three parts water). Rubbing alcohol (propanol) also will work. I think Wood alcohol (methanol) is too toxic to spray indoors. I have also used cheap vodka or cheap brandy, appropriately diluted. 20% alcohol solutions will not burn but higher concentrations can be ignited and over 50% in water can explode!! when it is sprayed near a source of ignition. I spray the whole plant and wash off the soap solution with a water spray. For fleshy plants in dire straits you can dip them into very hot water (50 -55 deg C) for no more than two minutes. Use a timer!! and then dip them immediately into ice water for a minute or two to cool them. This works for me about half the time. This Spring, I am trying a spray of carnivorous nematodes on a batch of infested Cactus that are in cold storage for the winter. I will apply it just before I start warming them up. I'll get back if it seems to work. And relax - when computers try to take over the world, mealy bugs will be there, well adapted to eat some organic component on them and possibly save humankind [b-)] - John * John Milligan, 3 Windsor St., Kingston, ON, Canada, K7M 4K4 | Tel (613)389-2747 | US Zone 4/5 * ################### From: "Steve Klitzing" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:01:34 -0800 Subject: Fossil CP's in Siberia Hi: This week, a scientific expedition in Siberia found evidence of carnivorous plants in Siberia. A team of six university students were led to an outcropping in the ice. After using a portable generator and blow dryers, they discovered the frozen remains of the largest Nepenthes anyone has ever seen. Apparently, it had traps nearly twelve feet long and nine feet wide. They concluded that Siberia had at one time been entirely tropical. And, they now know why the Woolly Mammoths had disappeared. In one of the frozen traps, they found the remains of a juvenile Woolly Mammoth - still asleep after it had fallen into the trap and had been drugged. The trap apparently contained small carrots, alfalfa, apples, bananas, and marijuana, which the plant had symbiotically manufactured to lure the hairy elephants. In another trap, they were startled to discover three frozen Neantherthal teenagers who had ignored the carrots, alfalfa, apples, and bananas, and had gone straight for the marijuana. The scientists now believe the disappearance of the Woolly Mammoths and the Neanderthals may be linked. A third trap was partially decomposed but revealed even more - a cro-Magnon skull, a submachine gun, two hand grenades, a cannister of mustard gas, and a stinger missile. This discovery means that early proto-humans may have been much more violent and scientifically advanced than previously thought. And, it could very well mean that we are genetically pre-disposed to inventing weapons of mass destruction, letting us all off the hook for the past six thousand years of negative behavior. The university team plans to send another expedition to Antarctica next year. Says one of the students "Now that we've seen this, there could be anything under the Ross Ice Shelf!" ---Steve Klitzing ################### From: Walter Hafner Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:56:37 +0100 (CET) Subject: bud descriptions? Hi list, as we all know, bugs, fungi etc are a everlasting topic in the CP list. Since my english is not very good, I often have problems to translate the names of the several pests. Is there a website that explains the several bugs (common names, images etc.)? Or could anyone give me a list with german translations? e.g., what is a "mealy bug"? :-) -Walter ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:21:40 -0500 Subject: Re: bud descriptions? Walter, Attached is a picture, The large black insect is a Crypt, a beneficial insect predator that eats mealybugs. The little white fuzzy insects are the mealybugs. I'm sure someone can better answer your question, about what mealybugs are, but I know that they are insects that suck the plants sap. Michael >From: Walter Hafner >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: bud descriptions? >Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:06:06 -0800 (PST) > >Hi list, > >as we all know, bugs, fungi etc are a everlasting topic in the CP >list. Since my english is not very good, I often have problems to >translate the names of the several pests. > >Is there a website that explains the several bugs (common names, images >etc.)? Or could anyone give me a list with german translations? > >e.g., what is a "mealy bug"? :-) > >-Walter _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com [JPEG or GIF file mastergardening_1617_29908392.jpg deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:13:16 -0500 Subject: Bug Descriptions Hello Walter, Your English is fine. Much better than my German! Mealybugs are "scale" insects in the order Homoptera, including several families, one of which is _Pseudococcidae_. There are many lists that deal in Entomology. I am not an Entomologist. If you try IPM (Integrated Pest Management) or the German equivalent, there are many groups worldwide that have very informative internet web rings. I hope this helps. Take care, Steven Stewart Sanford, Florida, USA > as we all know, bugs, fungi etc are a everlasting topic in the CP > list. Since my english is not very good, I often have problems to > translate the names of the several pests. > > Is there a website that explains the several bugs (common names, images > etc.)? Or could anyone give me a list with german translations? > > e.g., what is a "mealy bug"? :-) > > -Walter ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:00:10 -0800 Subject: Re: Aldrovanda and Dionaea >>This argument appears from time to time; but is there any study which proves that Aldrovanda and Dionaea both originated from a same plant with closing traps? Couldn't they have originated from the genus Drosera (or what it was in the past) in different times? Aldrovanda and Dionaea do not seem very similar apart from their way of catching prey. Filippo Tassara Consider the chromosome counts; Aldrovanda 2n = 48, Dionaea 2n = 32. The basic number in common is 8. Aldrovanda is a hexaploid, 6 X 8 = 48. Dionaea is a tetraploid, 4 X 8 = 32. Remember the ploidy rule; the higher ploidy in a line of lineage is more recent. Aldrovanda is then younger and more probably evolved from or split off from the proto-Dionaea line more recently. So most probable is the line beginning with Drosera to Dionaea and then Aldrovanda. This is my own theory which you will not find in literature. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:15:05 EST Subject: Re: #%*~/&#*! mealybugs Hello Walter and everyone, I couldn't find any site that provides translations of common names of plant pests into different languages. Perhaps someone else will know of one. I'm sure if you've been growing plants for any length of time you've met mealybugs. They are a small, but easily visible, soft-bodied, sucking insects that are covered in a white waxy coating, which makes them look as if they have been dusted in flour, hence the name "mealy"-bug. The most common types are of the genus _Pseudococcus_. The cochineal insect is a mealy bug of cactus, and gives us a red dye of the same name. I've grown Hoyas for many years and have lots of ( too much ) experience with these difficult pests. For real control, I find rubbing alcohol ( isopropyl ) useless, and far too time consuming besides. It might work if you have a new infestation with just a few individual bugs, but don't count on it. They usually cluster in the axils of the leaves and stems and anyplace else that gives them some shelter. They will hide inside the pitchers of carnivorous plants. Mealybugs breed very quickly and their offspring quickly colonize the roots of plants too. Any time you find mealies, you should pull the plant out of the pot and inspect for signs of the pest on the roots. These root infestations mean that there are always more bugs to re-infest the upper parts of the plant. Mealybugs have been a greenhouse pest for so long that they have developed resistance to common pesticides. This explains why they reoccur so frequently. The only effective control I have found for mealies on Hoyas are granular systemic insecticides. These systemics are hideously toxic; you should not use them if you have children of pets that might have access to the treated plants. After applying them to the soil you should not touch the soil without gloves for a number of months. While this treatment sounds pretty drastic, I have never found anything else that really works to eliminate the stubborn little pests. Systemics vary in their plant toxicity. I have not tried the systemics on carnivorous plants and cannot say if they might cause serious damage. I would not try them on _Drosera_ or _Pinguicula_, but might experiment on _Nepenthes_ and _Sarracenia_ that I didn't value highly. Alternate treatments for mealybugs control include biological control with a predatory beetle, _Cryptolaemus_ and various parasitic wasps. Neither provide complete eradication. You might try submerging the whole plant under water for a few days. While in Hawaii recently, I saw mealybugs bigger than an American penny ( about 2 cm. across ). I guess we should count our blessings that we just have to deal with the little ones. Cheers, David in San Francisco, where its sunny, breezy, and 52 deg. F. ( 11 C. ) ################### From: "J. Chris Coppick " Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:43:04 -0800 Subject: Re: Bug Descriptions Here's one decent pest site that I've found. Lots of pictures... http://www.laters.com/bugs.htm Hope this helps. Chris ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:10:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some cool photos---tooting my own horn! Hey folks, I just posted a few new cool-o photos to my web site. Some of them included 2-flash images at 3--5 X of aquatic subjects. Definitely a challenge for me! You can see the photos at my photo web site (www.sarracenia.com/galleria/galleria.html) or look at the following photos directly: www.sarracenia.com/photos2/avesi03.jpg ---Aldrovanda turion in U. inflata www.sarracenia.com/photos2/avesi04.jpg ---Aldrovanda turion in U. inflata www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ghisp03.jpg ---Genlisea trap stomach www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ghisp04.jpg ---Genlisea trap branch www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ghisp05.jpg ---Genlisea trap tube www.sarracenia.com/photos2/uinfl06.jpg ---U. inflata trap www.sarracenia.com/photos2/uinfl07.jpg ---U. inflata trap Less technically complex but still satisfying are: www.sarracenia.com/photos2/dangl02.jpg ---D. anglica waking up www.sarracenia.com/photos2/naris01.jpg ---N. aristolochioides What do you think? Later! Barry --------------------- Dr. Barry Meyers-Rice bazza@sarracenia.com Carnivorous Plant FAQ--author www.sarracenia.com/faq.html Carnivorous Plant Newsletter--editor www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Phillip Crane Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 03:34:27 -0600 Subject: stock photos? Hello: I'm in the process of looking for good photography of a variety of CPs for commercial purposes. I was curious to know if any members of this list ever sell rights to their personal photos or have 'stock' photos of CPs. If anyone is interested in the sale of rights to use their photos for commercial purposes, please contact me. Thanks, Phillip ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:07:06 -0500 Subject: Barry's photo's Hello Barry, I'm very impressed with your Photo's! Do you ever share your techniques? I have found aquatic specimens challenging, and have not ever accomplished the clarity you have. It looks like N. aristolochioides is growing in Sphagnum, and doing well! Take care, Steven Stewart ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:55:40 +0000 Subject: _Aldrovanda_ and _Dionaea_ Dear Ivan, > Consider the chromosome counts; Aldrovanda 2n = 48, Dionaea 2n = 32. The > basic number in common is 8. This is only a part of the whole (published) story. There are in fact three different counts (30, 32, and 33) for _Dionaea_, and two (38 and 48) for _ Aldrovanda_ (for references, see cp db). 30= 2x3x5 (diploid with base 15 or triploid, base 10) 32=2x2x2x2x2 (diploid, base 16 or tetraploid, base 8) 33=3x11 (triploid, base 11) 38=2x19 (diploid, base 19) 48=2x2x2x2x3 (diploid, base 24 or tetraploid, base 12 or triploid, base 16 or hexaploid, base 8) And all these possible (but certainly not equally realistic) interpretations do not yet consider chromosome loss, fusion, or fragmentation (which is quite common in some species of _Drosera_) or simply wrong counts (that may occasionally occur). A considerable number of fossil species of _Aldrovanda_ is known (from fossil seeds), forming progressive series as well as extinct side branches, so _A. vesiculosa_ is quite certainly not a direct descendant of any representative of the recent genera _Drosera_ or _Dionaea_. > Remember the ploidy rule; the higher ploidy in a line of lineage > is more recent. This simple rule applies *only* to ploidy series within a group of closely related species of fairly recent divergence, and quite probably not to genera as distinct from each other as _A._ & _D._. > Aldrovanda is then younger and more probably evolved from > or split off from the proto-Dionaea line more recently. Maybe, but even _Aldrovanda_ is probably (if the fossil attributions are correct) at least of Upper Cretaceous age (=very old for flowering plants). > So most probable is the line beginning with Drosera to > Dionaea and then Aldrovanda. The conclusion may in fact be correct (especially the assumption that _Drosera_ is the oldest genus). But I doubt the (oversimplified) premises, and would rather base this theory on the number of recent species, sections, and subgenera, and their global distribution. Chromosome counts of "outgroups" like _Drosophyllum_ (12=2x2x3), _Triphyophyllum_ (24=2x2x2x3, and 32=2x2x2x2x2), and _Nepenthes_ (80=2x2x2x2x5), could possibly support a number of several conflicting theories, as the assumedly primitive species of _Drosera_ (a genus of quite crucial importance for Droseraceae evolution) have counts of 34 (=2x17!! _D. regia_), 22 (=2x11, _D. glanduligera_), 20 (=2x2x5, _D. arcturi_, _D. burmannii_), or 12 (=2x2x3, _D. petiolaris_, _D. banksii_). > This is my own theory which you will not find in literature. You will find it (or at least parts of it) in the papers you have written yourself (e.g. in CPN). Chromosome counts are not always very informative (or are they?): _Sarracenia_ (26=2x13) _Darlingtonia_ (30=2x3x5) _Heliamphora_ (42=2x3x7) Genetic comparison has led to a phylogenetic reconstruction with _Darlingtonia_ branching first, whereas most morphologists considered _Heliamphora_ to be the most primitive genus in Sarraceniaceae... Kind regards Jan ################### From: Charles Bigelow Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:19:42 -0800 Subject: mealybug control Hi all, I find infestations of mealybugs on orchids and CPs that I grow indoors, especially in enclosed terraria or wardian cases. The mealybugs are much less prevalent on orchids and CPs (mostly Nepenthes) that I grow outside. After trying various insecticides (pyrethrins and similar), I settled on Neem oil and Neem extracts like BioNeem (containing Azadirachtin), after hearing from an orchid grower that Neem gives good results against mealybugs in Paphiopedilum collections and doesn't appear to harm the orchids. Either concoction gives good control though not total eradication. I remove the most obvious mealybugs by hand, using a swab and alcohol, or a swab and dilute Neem solution, and then spray the plants and the surface of their growing medium. This treatment will last a month or sometimes longer until I see evidence of a few new mealybugs. If I spray every two weeks, I never see the bugs. Presumably a few are still lurking, and the population will rebound if I stop spraying, but I think indoors, a careful Neem spray regimen could eliminate the bugs. I sprayed the plants in one Wardian case every two weeks for two months, and haven't seen any mealybugs for six months. In another case, I spray only occasionally, and the bugs come back. Hmm. Neem is a tropical tree that is highly touted as having "natural" or "organic" insecticidal and anti-fungal properties. (Of course, many "natural" plant extracts are very dangerous, like strychnine or ricin.) Anyway, the Neem oil is pressed from the seeds, and the extract taken from the oil. Its main ingredient is an insect growth regulator, azadiractin, though the oil has a brew of various and sundry other biologically active compounds. The labeling has a Caution warning. It is classified in Toxicity Class IV - relatively non-toxic. The undiluted oil can be irritating to eyes and skin, and for those is in class III, slightly toxic. Neem's main drawback, in my opinion, is that it smells like rotten garlic. That's why I don't spray it as often on the fragrant orchids in one wardian case - I prefer to smell the orchids, not the Neem oil. I haven't noticed any harm to the orchids or Nepenthes I have sprayed with Neem oil solution or BioNeem (which seems to work as well on mealybugs and doesn't smell quite as bad). I haven't tried it on Drosera or Pinguicula; they may be more sensitive. In contrast, disulfoton, the insecticide usually found those systemic granules, is in Toxicity Class 1 - Highly Toxic. It is highly toxic to mammals, as well as to insects. It has a very low LD-50, the lethal dose in 50% of cases, of 2mg to 12mg per kilogram of body weight. This is measured in rats, which may be more resistant than humans. The label has a Danger or Danger-Poison warning in the higher concentrations. In lower concentrations it squeaks by as Level II, moderately toxic, with a Warning label. I agree with David Gray's warnings and cautions about the stuff. It may be the only thing that will stop a particular infestation of scale or whatever, but one should be highly prudent in using it. -- Chuck Bigelow ################### From: "Hermann Wistuba" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:33:01 +0100 Subject: AW: mealybug control Hi Chuck, In Germany there is a Insecticide from BAYER ( CONFIDOR ) with the same active ingredient as Marathon ( Imadacloprid ). After some years of frustrating trials with some other insecticides and only the loss of all leaves of my Adeniums full of scales I tried some months ago Confidor with a fantastic success. All scales are away with only one spraying, no loss of leaves and the Adeniums are healthy. I heard from this insecticide from cactus-friends. They know it fore years against mealy-bugs. I know that mealy-bugs are related to scales and decided to try it and I am happy. Perhaps you could get in US CONFIDOR perhaps under another name it is worth a trial. Greetings Hermann from Germany Dr. Hermann Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227 68259 Mannheim GERMANY hermann@wistuba.com -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com]Im Auftrag von Charles Bigelow Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Januar 2001 17:05 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: mealybug control Hi all, I find infestations of mealybugs on orchids and CPs that I grow indoors, especially in enclosed terraria or wardian cases. The mealybugs are much less prevalent on orchids and CPs (mostly Nepenthes) that I grow outside. ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:52:13 EST Subject: Re: mealybug control Charles and all, I have seen evidence to sustain what Charles said, because of something I mentioned before about Nepenthes and Sarracenia from Florida greenhouses. The mealy bugs are not thriving down there, but when I put the plants in my indoor tanks, BOOM, they appear in about a month or so. So it's seems to me, that they thrive in softer, constant conditions. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Duggins, Stephen R" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:19:56 -0800 Subject: Cephalotus resurrection? I recently bought some bare root Cephalotus. I read on one website to keep it at 80-90 degrees F. So I promptly put most of it into my lowland greenhouse after potting in 1:1 peat/sand soil mix in 6" pots with a shallow saucer to hold water. After developing white fuzzy stuff, (botrytis?), on the leaves of a couple plants I moved them closer to the heating fan, (for better air circulation) and treated them with sulfur. My plants rewarded this torture by losing all their leaves, (even the untreated ones that weren't close to the fan). Fortunately, I chose to put one plant outside, (in southern California), with my Sarracenia and ignore it. That one is looking great! After seeing my mistake, I finally decided to read my copy of Savage Garden and found that I shouldn't keep the plants at a constant high temperature. I have since moved one pot inside my house, (60 - 75 degrees F), one to my office, (constant 70 degrees F), and left one outside in the shade, (40 - 75 degrees F). Will the plants come back if treated properly? Is there any special R&R I can do to help? Should the rhizome be planted parallel or perpendicular to the soil surface? Please don't report me to the SPCP, (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Plants). I promise to treat my plants better as soon as I find out how. Steve Duggins 714 - 762 - 0562 ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:34:26 -0800 Subject: Carnivorous flower stalks? (P. Lusitanica) I am growing some P. Lusitanica in my terrarium. Today, I accidentally brushed by finger against one of the flower stalks, and noticed that it was sticky. Are the flower stalks indeed carnivorous and able to trap and digest insects? ( I don't see any insects stuck on the flower stalks, just the leaves). Is this normal for all butterworts, or is it specific to P. Lusitanica? Thanks, Joe ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:11:33 EST Subject: Re: Carnivorous flower stalks? (P. Lusitanica) Joe, I have some P. "Titan" that are large hybrid butterworts. They flower quite often, while in growth, and have sticky flower stalks that do mire insects on them. I can't say 100 percent certain that they don't digest insects this way, but I think they just use the glandular make-up they possess as a defense mechanism when it comes to flowers. Paul Temple, take it away...... Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Brewer Charles E PHDN Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:41:13 -0500 Subject: RE: Tips on growing Cephalotus Steve, I have been growing and the Cephalotus for some time now. Actually, more years then I care to say. Anyway, here is some helpful hints that may help you with your problems: Avoid purchasing bare rooted Cephs in the future. If they do come bare rooted, soak them in a fungicide solution for approx. 10 minutes before planting them up. A good fungicide to use is Ortho 3336. I use a soil mix consisting of 40% dried chopped sphagnum, 40% perlite, 10% sand/peat moss mix with agriculture charcoal mixed in. Add water, mix the soil and water together and let stand for approx. 1 day before using. Fill pot 60% full with mix, top dress soil with live sphagnum, plant your Ceph, water your plant and allow excess water to drain. Place potted plant in a cool humid environment, out of direct sunlight, until the plant shows signs of new growth. Forty to 75 degree F condition is excellent. Actually, cool nights, warm days are ideal for these plants. All my plants do their best growing during winter months. Their growing chambers reaches 70 degrees F during the day and drops to as low as 35 degree F during the evening hours. I also grow Cephs in my greenhouse where the temps can drop as low as 28 degrees during the evening hour. Air movement and well drained soil seems to be essential for healthy growth. > Will the plants come back if treated properly? If the rhizome is healthy enough and you don't keep the plant to wet, it should. > Is there any special R&R I can do to help? Once planted, leave it alone. > Should the rhizome be planted > parallel or perpendicular to the soil surface? Vertical seems to work for me. Things to avoid: Keeping them to wet, high temperatures, over feeding with insects especially when growing them in an environment like an aquarium. Constantly moving them around or repotting them, soil mix to compact, sour soil, using strong fertilizers, full sun. Hope this helps, Charles Brewer ---------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: NAVSEA CDSA Dam Neck email addresses have changed to 'user@navseadn.navy.mil'. Please update your address books accordingly. ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:31:30 EST Subject: Re: Cephalotus resurrection? >>I recently bought some bare root Cephalotus. I read on one website to keep it at 80-90 degrees F. So I promptly put most of it into my lowland greenhouse after potting in 1:1 peat/sand soil mix in 6" pots with a shallow saucer to hold water. After developing white fuzzy stuff, (botrytis?), on the leaves of a couple plants I moved them closer to the heating fan, (for better air circulation) and treated them with sulfur. My plants rewarded this torture by losing all their leaves, (even the untreated ones that weren't close to the fan). Fortunately, I chose to put one plant outside, (in southern California), with my Sarracenia and ignore it. That one is looking great! After seeing my mistake, I finally decided to read my copy of Savage Garden and found that I shouldn't keep the plants at a constant high temperature. I have since moved one pot inside my house, (60 - 75 degrees F), one to my office, (constant 70 degrees F), and left one outside in the shade, (40 - 75 degrees F). Will the plants come back if treated properly? Is there any special R&R I can do to help? Should the rhizome be planted parallel or perpendicular to the soil surface? Please don't report me to the SPCP, (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Plants). I promise to treat my plants better as soon as I find out how.>> The web site you may be referring to is my old web site catalani.com. I grow quite a few cephalotus, and over the past few years have experimented with growing them at different temperatures. My largest cephalotus's still grow year round at 80 degrees. However, I have found that transplanting plants, especially bare root, is best done by keeping the humidity extremely high, and keeping the plants out of any form of direct sunlight until they are well established. This usually allows them to keep their pitchers. Immediately exposing them to high light aftre transplanting can cause the pitchers to wilt in a few days, although the plant itself is ok. A lowland Nepenthes house may not provide enough light for the plants, and with ample humidity, bortrytis could become a problem, especially at 85 degrees. Mine grow at that temperature under lights, and I havent had a problem with fungus attacks. Placing the plant next to a heater or heater fan could reduce the humidty and dry the plant out (the leaves, ont the soil), which ceph's defintely do not like. They are quite durable from the roots, and can easily come back from the "dead". I'm not sure what effects sulfur may have on the plants. Be careful about leaving the plants outside as well. I can grow cephs outside here in Memphis during the early spring, but other times of the year it is either too hot or too cold. My large plants grow in a chamber inside my house. This keeps the temperature stable at about 75 degrees. With the lights on, the temperatures rise to about 85 with some flux up and down. My point about this is that the chamber isnt heated on the inside, which keeps the humidity from dropping. Michael Catalani ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:00:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade Hey Folks, I have just finished helping a plant quarantine officer for the US Department of Agriculture. The officer had questions about the identification of some plants being sent through his office. We were able to establish that the plants were most probably Sarracenia rubra subsp. rubra---I was particularly concerned they may have been Sarracenia jonesii. Since the plants were apparently Sarracenia rubra, the papers were in order so the plants passed through the USDA station without incident. However, I have grave misgivings about the entire episode. As I understand the particulars of the shipment, approximately 500 plants were being shipped to Canada, in dead and dried form. (Presumably for some pharmaceutical purpose.) Were the plants field collected or propagated, you may ask... It is impossible to tell. But there is a clue... The plants were mature, and at least some had mature fruiting capsules. Since the seed capsules were not harvested, this suggests the plants were field collected---an operation involved in large scale propagation using seed would probably collect seed capsules. If the plants were being grown out from tissue culture, I would expect that the flowering stalks would be removed in early development for maximum growth of the rhizomes. So....my guess is the plants were collected from the field. Perhaps the plants were field collected legally. In any event, it was an interesting incident. Sigh. Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:09:56 -0600 Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade Barry Meyers-Rice wrote: > > So....my guess is the plants were collected from the field. So, we dress up in green hoods with white stripes, red tubes, whatever, and go visit these guys at night. Where do I sign up? ################### From: "Chris Hind" Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:14:45 -0800 Subject: RE: Ants on Nepenthes thanks, will give it a try. ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 01:00:59 -0200 Subject: Re: Aldrovanda and Dionaea Filippo and Ivan, So the question is, did the snap traps of VFTs and Aldrovanda have a common or separate origin? Well, phylogenetics usually goes by the assumption that evolutionary changes are more likely to have accurred once, rather than twice independently. So simplyfying the question, we assume that snap traps arose only once. BUT -- and there always are one or more buts -- there are several characteristics which put Aldrovanda closer to Drosera than to Dionaea, such as style number and pollen morphology. This suggests that maybe the snap traps of Aldrovanda and VFTs evolved from a sticky predecessor (common to Drosophyllum and Triphyophyllum as well -- and maybe even Nepenthes, as indicated by DNA sequencing) AND...... that Drosera evolved through a reversal of the snap trap back to the sticky (although active)trap type. As you see, this reversal seems as unlikely as the possibility that two different snap traps evolved independently in the same family. If there were more snap traps in the CP world, maybe this wouldn't sound so improbable. Both are POSSIBLE, but UNLIKELY. Agree? So what does DNA show us that morphology hasn't so far? Well, the phylogenetic trees I obtained with after sequencing two genes have so far not been 100% conclusive. In fact it would be best to sequence one or two more genes to be sure, to add more data. It's pointing to either of two possibilities (hopefully this very crude tree will come out well...): Tree #1: Neps VFT Ald. /_______/_____/____ Dros. \ / \_Tryphyoph. / Drosoph. OR Tree #2: VFT Ald. \ / Neps \/ /_______/____ Dros. \ / \_Tryphyoph. / Drosoph. Tree #1 shows VFT and Ald. inserted as 2 separate branches onto the main stem. This could mean that snap traps had a separate and independent origin from sticky traps OR that there was a single snap trap origin from sticky traps and that the sticky traps of Drosera evolved from some sort of snap trap. A step back, some might say, but I guess the fact that we only have two snap traps alive today suggests that maybe the energy spent is not as evolutionarily efficient as active sticky traps. Anyways, in this case (tree #1) it is more likely (in terms of evolutionary steps necessary) that the second possibility is true, since a snap trap would require numerous adaptive mutations to evolve. The chances that this happened twice in parallel are scarce. Regression on the other hand is far more likely since at least some of the mutations necessary for regression may already be present, retained somewhere in the genome, maybe inactivated. Anyways, tree #2 shows Ald. and VFT arising from a common branch, which is in turn inserted in the main stem which leads to Drosera. The big difference here is that this tree increases the likelyhood that snap traps had a common origin (since they're on a same branch) and decreases the likelihood that Drosera evolved from a snap trap (but from a passive sticky trap instead). Again the possibilities are there, so we can only bet on the probabilities. On or two genes might not be conclusive. But add a few more genes and if they keep pointing in the same direction, I guess it may not be necessary to sequence their whole genomes... :):):) Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil P.S. Still owing a mail about the Chilean CPs, I know ... ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:38:07 +0000 Subject: A & D Dear Fernando, > Tree #1: > > Neps VFT Ald. > /_______/_____/____ Dros. > \ > / \_Tryphyoph. > / > Drosoph. > > > OR > > > Tree #2: > > VFT Ald. > \ / > Neps \/ > /_______/____ Dros. > \ > / \_Tryphyoph. > / > Drosoph. Interesting, but you should include _Ancistrocladus_ in your analysis. It is the closest relative of Dioncophyllaceae, and this further proves that _Drosophyllum_ (which is the sister to the Dioncophyllaceae/Ancistrocladaceae branch) is not part of Droseraceae (i.e. the family did probably *not* evolve from a _Drosophyllum_-like precursor). More importantly, you should include a non-nepenthalean outgroup in your considerations. Otherwise, the tree is unrooted, and the evolutionary course could equally well have been in the opposite direction, e.g. Meimberg & al. (Plant Biology 2:218-228, 2000) came to this conclusion: /Nepenthaceae | | /Ancistrocladaceae |/+ /+|\Dioncophyllaceae |\+ | \-Drosophyllaceae /+ |\Droseraceae | | /Plumbaginaceae |/+ ||\Polygonaceae /+| |\+/Tamaricaceae | \+ | \Frankeniaceae /+ |\Simmondsiaceae | | /Chenopodiaceae | /+ | |\Amaranthaceae |/+ ||\Nyctaginaceae \+ \Portulacaceae i.e. Droseraceae are at the base and not at the top of the carnivorous clade in the caryophyllids. Is _Drosera_ monophyletic (incl. _D. regia_) in your trees? Kind regards Jan ################### From: strega@split.it (Tassara) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:08:56 +0100 Subject: Re: Aldrovanda and Dionaea Dear Fernando, Jan and Ivan, thank you for the interesting replies. > So the question is, did the snap traps of VFTs and Aldrovanda >have a common or separate origin? Well, phylogenetics usually goes by the >assumption that evolutionary changes are more likely to have accurred once, >rather than twice independently. So simplyfying the question, we assume that >snap traps arose only once. Also separate origin of pitchers is unlikely, but there is the case of Sarraceniaceae, Cephalotus and Nepenthes which almost surely developed their traps indipendently. Why the same thing couldn't have happened to snap traps? Drosera traps seem quite suitable for such evolution: consider for example D. kenneallyi: its traps have a shape very similar to the one of Dionaea's; and when they catch prey they close in the same way. If you add to it the rapidity of D. burmannii and if you increase it, you'll maybe obtain one day another snap trap evolved indipendently. About Aldrovanda, it is clearly related to Drosera, but it is completely different morphologically; and this is obvious if you admit the very ancient origin of this genus. Dionaea, on the other hand, is still very similar to some species of the genus Drosera, which should be very strange if the two genera separated more than 65 millions years ago. Just some ideas, without scientific bases. Regards Filippo Tassara ################### From: Terre Golembiewski Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:12:06 -0500 Subject: Number of CP in the USA I am trying to arrive at the number of species of carnivorous plants in the United States. So far I have: 1 Darlingtonia 10 Sarracenia 1 Dionaea 1 Catopsis 6? Pinguicula ??? Drosera ??? Utricularia Can anyone help? Terre Golembiewski ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:28:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Close-up Photos >Hello Barry, >I'm very impressed with your Photo's! Do you ever share your >techniques? I have found aquatic specimens challenging, and have not ever >accomplished the clarity you have. It looks like N. aristolochioides is >growing in Sphagnum, and doing well! >Take care, >Steven Stewart Hey Steven, Thanks for the compliments. As anyone who knows me, knows---I'm happy to talk at length on any topic. :) Anyway, the photos I took were taken using a 50 mm lens, reversed, stacked on a 135 mm lens. I mounted this combination onto my camera with about 50 mm of extension tubes. For lighting, I used two TTL flash units about 3 cm from the plants. As for the setting, I have a little aquarium I bought for this kind of use---I've even lugged it into the field. I keep one surface EXTREMELY clean, and fill it with purified water and my subject. Use a razor blade to clean bubbles off the viewing side of the aquarium. I'm going to try to make a specialized aquarium at some point with an optical quality side. I see a good deal of degradation from this source. Later! Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Barbro =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bergg=E5rd?= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:23:06 +0100 Subject: Corcovado, Costa Rica Hi everyone! I a going to visit Costa Rica and the national park Corcovado in April.It must be possible to find carnivoruos plants there, but I do not know where and what kind of them. Please, give me information! Regards Barbro Barbro.Berggard@carnivo.se Carnivo E-mail: Barbro.Berggard@carnivo.se ################### From: Sylvia De Rooy Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:24:17 -0800 Subject: mealybugs/cephs If I spray alcohol over a plant a few times over a couple of weeks that seems to be all I need to do to control mealybugs. Sometimes I need to do one more spray after another week or so. I have 2 cephs in my outdoor bog that are fat and happy here in far northern CA. Temps are never very high here, mid 70's being considered VERY hot here. These last few weeks water in the yard has had an ice coating and everything has a light coat of frost. ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:42:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Number of CP in the USA > 1 Catopsis What is Catopsis? -Joe ################### From: "Wubs" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:39:11 -0500 Subject: D Adelae Is it just me, or is D. adelae a weed? Since I purchased mine in August of 2000, it's done nothing but send out long roots that sprout plantlets (OK, actually on 6 plantlets, but that's not bad for a plant that was sitting in dried sphagnum at the local Home Depot store!). Is this common for this plant? I mean, I'm not complaining, but space is a factor and I hate the thought of having to "dispose" of the excess. -jk [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:43:52 EST Subject: Re: D Adelae Jk, No, it is definitely not just you. D. adelae produces gazillions of plantlets that will fill the pot up and shoot out the pots drainage holes and start growing across the bare glass of my tanks. I should put a layer of LF sphagnum on the bottom of the tank so they plantlets could get huge. It is one of the most prolific CP, in that to propagate it, you don't have to do anything. It does all the work. I would not dump the excess. Maybe you could trade them on the trading post or at least give them to new people interested in CP(or charge a buck a potful). I had a similar episode with U. longifolia, and I got rid of it in a quick manner, only to find out a few weeks ago that mine flowered much more than others were known to(thanks to Barry's wisdom, even though he called me a "Infidel" :( ) Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "Adao Pereira" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:45:47 -0000 Subject: More on cool photos Hello to all!! Looking at Barry's photos, I recalled that I have here some very cool photos I took also of Utric. inflata and Byblis. They are extreme close-ups of the traps, and believe me they are very nice. I invite you all to take a look: http://planeta.clix.pt/welwitschia/Utric_close.jpg http://planeta.clix.pt/welwitschia/Byblis_gland.jpg At the moment I have only these really good ones, but I will take some more one day. It's not easy. Best regards, Miguel ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 16:25:24 -0600 Subject: Refridgerated Seeds and Fungus I bought a whole mess of VF seeds (20,000 from one of the list members), put them in Perlite, dampened the whole mess with water and fungicide, drained any free water and put the sealed mass in the refrigerator for a few months until I could find 20,000 pots to put them in. I brought them out yesterday to inspect them and noticed a thinish layer of fungus on the top of the seed/perlite mass. All the seeds still look shiny and plump, and the fungus doesn't appear to have reached too far below the surface - kinda like turf - could the perlite itself have nutrients that the fungus can grow on, and why, if I bathed the whole thing in bonomyl fungicide, did the fungus start growing? Does the fungicide wear off after a while? I plan on test planting selected seeds to see if they've been damaged. I hope not... Thanks, Mike ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:00:47 EST Subject: Re: Insect origins Steven--and List, -- -- Sorry about that. I did not mean to attack all Florida growers. I thought I was pointing out a possible connection to softer conditions and a pest taking advantage of it. I have never received plants from--Steven and I have heard great things about bicals that came from him, and certainly would not pass up a chance to get some of his fantastic stuff. -- I did tell the people I got the plants from and have no reason to believe they would lie about nothing going on in their greenhouses. I find it strange that from all four of the people I had bought plants from in Florida(greenhouse grown) in the last three years, this has occured, and when the other person made a comment, I was trying to postulate a link betwen my soft conditions(ie under--lights indoors in tanks) and being grown in Florida--greenhouses. What I was trying to get at was my conditions seem more favorable for these pests(I have had those and scale at the same time-not good) and they don't thrive under the conditions from whence they came, since the plants arrive in perfect health. These are the only plants that get attacked like this, and I suppose another angle could be that the pests are already on my other plants, and the hardgrown Florida plants in the softer conditions lose a little stamina and are vulnerable. -- Anyway, I sincerely apologize to Steven and any other Florida CP growers(I would love to be one of them right now. It's cold here) I may have offended, and I will try not to make such bold generalizations in the future. -- -- Regards, -- -- Joe -- In a message dated 2/1/2001 3:01:21 PM Central Standard Time, steven.stewart@worldnet.att.net writes: > Hello Joe, > I just thought I would drop you a note about where some of your problem > insects _really_ came from. One of the first commercial pest > "Mealybugs",_Pseudococcus citri_ were first found in the US on Oranges > trees imported from Italy in the late 1800's and very early 1900's and > named "Citrus Mealybugs". When Entomologists tried to find the same pests, > causing problems in Italy they were unsuccessful. It turns out they had a > beneficial insect _Leptomastidea abnormis_ , and both this insect and the > "mealybugs" had been imported from China. It took many years of effort to > capture and import these insects to the US, mainly because there were no > airplanes yet, and entire Citrus trees infected with both insects had to be > sent by boat, to _California_. Another "mealybug" was discovered several > years later and the Asian beneficial had no effect on it. A beetle from the > original country of this new "mealybug" was found, in _Australia_. > _Cryptolaemus montrouzieri_, the "mealybug destroyer" was then released in > California and was very successful in helping eradicate this type of > "Longtail mealybug" _Pseudococcus longisipes_ from Citrus crops. DDT was > used from the 1940's - 1960's and wiped out most of the beneficials, along > with most everthing else.There are more than 300 species in this family, > most are tropical, and thrive best when in controlled environments, being > able to lie dormant, as eggs, for very long periods until the right > conditions are present. They could be from many plant or soil, or sources, > when dealing with material from around the world. > While it is true Florida does have a large number of insects, a large > number of these are beneficial, many not found elsewhere in the world. > I think it might be most constructive for you to contact individuals who > _you think_ may have sent you infected plants to inform them personally > rather than to over generalize your personal, limited, recent experiences, > and apply them to _all_ plants and greenhouse plant businesses from > Florida. I would hope for a personal note if it were my plant material you > are having problems with, and am sure you would want to be told, if > someone had problems with material you provided. > There are many very good books on Horticulture, IPM and other types of past > and present insect control methods you need to read, to help you become > informed and experienced, before you come to conclusions which may be > harmful to people not intended. > I hope the Nepenthes bicalcarata seed you received from me is germinating > as well as mine are. In the proper growing environment they will germinate > and grow rapidly. I have never seen any species of "mealybug" on this > species of Nepenthes, "scale" is another story.;-) > Take care, > Steven Stewart > Sanford, Florida > > > > [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:02:14 +0930 Subject: Sphagnum Palms? A little while ago, I reported that I had been using "peat" bricks which contained coconut fibre (coir). A more careful look at the label (Tropigro "Fast Peat" bricks) shows that these bricks are made entirely from coconut fibre. I was under the impression the term "peat" applied exclusively to sphagnum moss peat. If these bricks are "peat", then I have a 50 foot sphagnum moss palm growing in my back yard and, I tell you what, you don't want to be standing under it when it's dropping its spores. Apart from the (mis)use of terminology, I don't have any complaints about the bricks. I suspect the coconut peat lasts longer in the tropics. And if you're into using coconut, it's much easier than trying to snip up coconut fibre with scissors. BTW, a way of controlling ants on Nepenthes (or any other plant for that matter) is to place the plant in the centre of a moat. Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 18:56:09 -0600 Subject: Re: Sphagnum Palms? Kevin Cook wrote: > A little while ago, I reported that I had been using "peat" bricks which > contained coconut fibre (coir). > Mr. Webster says that peat is "Turf or partially carbonized vegetable tissue formed by partial decomposition of various plants (as mosses of the genus Sphagnum)." Yet another definition: "A bold, gay woman." :) So, I guess partially decomposed coconut fiber is 'legal' to sell as peat. Wayne Morrow ################### From: Robin Dauber Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:12:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: BUGS! II Boy howdy, Thanks for the overwhelming response to my mealy bug questions. I am glad to hear so many others also rely on the tried and true firehose technique of crowd control. I may also try spraying alcohol, instead of just dabbing it on. A couple of days ago, I also found a bottle of concentrated liquid garlic juice. I am guessing this would work more as a deterrent than a cure. I am still curious where they come from...or are they just native to everywhere by now? I have seen articles that Hibiscus mealy are a problem in the Caribbean, but also that mealies attack fruit crops in the Pacific Northwest. Can they survive outdoors in Chicago over winter (long stretches of 10-15F)? Also, I see Australian Mealy Bug Destroyers (aka Ladybugs) are available but expensive. Do other kinds of Ladybug eat mealies if available? Lots of Ladybugs huddle together and overwinter in my Sarracenia pitchers...I have caught and released these in my plant room before, but have never seen one eating anything, let alone a mealy. Once again, any information is appreciated, John in Chicago ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Number of CP in the USA Dear Terre and Joe, > I am trying to arrive at the number of species of carnivorous plants in the > United States. So far I have: > > 1 Darlingtonia > 10 Sarracenia > 1 Dionaea > 1 Catopsis > 6? Pinguicula > ??? Drosera > ??? Utricularia --snip-- > 1 Catopsis > > What is Catopsis? > > -Joe Catopsis is an air plant that catches lots of debris and bugs get caught in surprising numbers. I believe there are seven species of Drosera in the USA, but perhaps this is the count for North America: D. anglica, D. brevifolia, D. capillaris, D. intermedia, D. filiformis, D. linearis and D.rotundifolia. I tried to use the Data base at http://www2.labs.agilent.com/bot/cp_home to find by the name and location, but could not seem to get it to work. Is there a way to search for both Name and Location at the same time? Dave Evans ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:54:56 EST Subject: U. longifolia Hi All, Does anyone have any U. longifolia that they would like to sell/trade? I am curious if the stuff I had that flowered a ton was really that species or mislabled seed, or maybe I was lucky. If I can get it to flower, maybe I can write an article on it(I watered it, put it under light, and it flowered and that's all you do..) Seriously, I am curious and would like to experiment with it. If I have any luck, I'll gladly report it. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:37:47 -0500 Subject: Re: U. longifolia Dear Joe, I have some U. longifolia. I have not ID'ed it yet. I still stuck on my U. subulata (for ID), but there is hope. Perhaps if you can flower the plant I have, it can then be ID'ed. :) I have mine growing on peatmoss that is laying on top of a thick layer of perlite in a twenty gallon tank. It doesn't look that happy though. Oddly, it appears to be crawling along the surface of the peatmoss, only a few stolons seem to penetrate into the peat. the rest reach upward. What type of soil did you use? I can send you some pieces once the weather warms. Check this URL: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/gallery/3_2000/EricSchlosser_ESulongifolia_ jpg.htm If you recall the flowers, perhaps this is your species? Dave Evans ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:56:51 -0600 Subject: Re: U. longifolia I am growing it in live sphagnum in flooded pots with out drainage. Foliage thrives. I disturbed it a month ago to repot all the babies and growth has slowed. Do you have U. subulata for trade? Wayne Dave Evans wrote: > Dear Joe, > > I have some U. longifolia. I have not ID'ed it yet. I still stuck on > my U. subulata (for ID), but there is hope. Perhaps if you can flower the > plant I have, it can then be ID'ed. :) I have mine growing on peatmoss > that is laying on top of a thick layer of perlite in a twenty gallon tank. > It doesn't look that happy though. Oddly, it appears to be crawling along > the surface of the peatmoss, only a few stolons seem to penetrate into the > peat. the rest reach upward. What type of soil did you use? > I can send you some pieces once the weather warms. > > Check this URL: > http://www.carnivorousplants.org/gallery/3_2000/EricSchlosser_ESulongifolia_ > jpg.htm If you recall the flowers, perhaps this is your species? > > Dave Evans ################### From: "J. Chris Coppick " Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:33:18 -0800 Subject: Re: U. longifolia On Feb 1, at 21:00, Wayne Morrow mused about the following: > > > I am growing it in live sphagnum in flooded pots with out drainage. Foliage > thrives. I disturbed it a month ago to repot all the babies and growth has > slowed. > > -- End of excerpt from Wayne Morrow Mine started out in a sphagnum/peat mix, but now I think my U. Longifolia is mostly growing in U. Longifolia. Actually, I take that back. It's mostly growing in the water tray. I got mine originally from a pot of D. Prolifera. I wish the Prolifera had done so well. Mr. D'Amato ID'ed it for me, so I'm pretty confident it's U. Longifolia. Neat stuff. Huge traps. No flowers, though. Chris ################### From: "philmann" Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 08:48:19 +0800 Subject: Cephalotus saucer to hold water. After developing white fuzzy stuff, (botrytis?), on Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:54:56 -0000 Subject: Drosophyllum I hesitate to ask this question after all the high brow stuff of recent days but as a fairly new CP fan I need the help. I have a nine month old drosophyllum that is producing flower buds. I wasn't expecting it to do this for some months here in southern England. Should I let it flower or remove the buds? Dennis > ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:49:24 EST Subject: Re: U. longifolia Whoops. Sorry about the post to the group that was supposed to be private I knew I would do that sometime. Anyway, a couple of people have inquired to what I did with U. longifolia. Honestly, I basicaly neglected it. I started ICPS seed in a pot of milled sphagnum, and it germinated and grew and then invaded nearby pots of D. prolifera(I guess they love prolifera, huh?) and D. villosa and stangled them put of existance, and then shot out the bottom of the pots and covered the entire bottom of a 10 gallon tank(bare, except for the pots). I would dump water in occasionally, when it was dry(sometimes the leaves were brown a little). The bottom of the tank was a inch-thick mass of whiteness. The photoperiod was a straight 16 hours with no fiddling with it for seasonal purposes. Deduce what you can from that. he other pots had a variety of mediums from LF sphagnum to peat/sand, but it did not matter. Maybe the exposure to so much oxygen had something to do with it, or because there was nowhere else for the plant to go, they had to flower because they were bored :) Maybe periods of d! ! ! ryness triggered flowering after water was dumped in the tank(filling the bottom for a half-inch or so). Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Sylvia De Rooy Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:53:05 -0800 Subject: re:BUGS! II John in Chicago, Ladybugs (not just the so-called Australian Mealybug Destroyers) love mealybugs and aphids. They can be bought in packs of 500 at most plant nurseries. They should be released at night. They will be hungry in the morning and will start chomping at first light. It's best to release 100 or so at a time, keeping the rest in your fridge. They tend to migrate rather than stay put in your plant area, that's why it's best to release them in bunches over time. Alcohol spraying is cheaper and, I think, easier. ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:53:42 -0500 Subject: New to List Hey There, My name is Steve LaWarre, I am the Head Grower at Frederik Meijer Gardens in Grand Rapids MI. We have been building our CP collection here for about 3 years. I am looking forward to opening a 20' x 20' public CP display greenhouse this fall, and am currently designing/ planning this greenhouse. I think every Botanist has his/her favorite plants, and mine are defiantly CP's, followed closely by Aroids. I look forward to participating in this listserv. I am sure I will learn allot. I have two questions: 1) What is the best protocol for germinating Heliamphora seed? 2) Does any one have a good source for mature Heliamphora plants? Thanks! Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org www.meijergardens.org ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:02:30 -0600 Subject: Re: N. ventricosa seed for sale Do you still have any of that seed left for sale? If so, is it still good? Thanks, Mike Dave Evans wrote: > > Dear List, > > I have been successful in creating two sets seed of the species > N. ventricosa. I want to make the seed available to growers on > the list while it is still very fresh. I have seed of: > > (A) N. ventricosa (Normal yellow pitchers with red speckles and > highlights) * N. ventricosa (deep red peristome, #125) and (B) N. > ventricosa (Normal yellow pitchers with red speckles and highlights) > * N. ventricosa (entire pitcher solid pink) > > N. ventricosa is an interesting, easily grown highland Nepenthes. > Both the upper and lower pitchers have nice hourglass shape with a > wide peristome. It make's for a very good beginner plant, > especially if you can provide it with cool nights. I suggest using > seedling orchid mix with some peatmoss/sand 50:50 added to "gel" the > orchid mix together. I also chop up living Sphagnum moss and and > use it as a top dressing for Nepenthes seedlings. Note: This may > not be the best way to germinate them, this is just what I do. > > Here's the deal: > > I will take orders for seed on a first come (in order of e-mails > received in my inbox) first serve basis. I will explain > everything now, but you have to email me and wait until I can > confirm that the seed you want is still available before you do > anything else. The seed will be $4.00 US (international orders > welcome for seed) per packet of more than sixty seed each. I > will need for you to supply a bubble wrap SASE (self addressed, > stamped envelope). I want to try and spread the seed to as many > people as possible, so I may limit the number of packets to one > of each (A and B) per order depending on the interest I see in > the next couple days. So put down for as many seed packets as > you do want, but I will try to satisfy as many orders as > possible. I would like to wait at least a couple days (until > after the weekend) before sending confirmations so all > interested people will have a chance to order before I send a > large number of seed to just a few people. The seed is not > guaranteed in anyway. I have produced this seed and harvested > it earlier in the week and now the seed heads have just dried to > the point where they are opening. I don't I think I could > provide fresher seed! It may take me a couple days after I > start sending confirmations to finish answering all inquires, > don't worry I will get back to you. Recap: The packets are > four dollars (USA). From within the USA the postage you need to > supply should (I checked at the post office) be $0.44, one stamp > on the envelope containing a bubble wrap envelope and another > stamp on the envelope I'm to mail your seed back to you in. If > you don't send bubble wrap, there is a very good chance the post > office will crush the seed! I will include a piece of cardboard > for support as well. I do not know what postage rates may be in > other countries (especially where SASE's are concerned), but if > you can work it out with your Postal system, I will be glad to > send you seed as well. > > BTW, I have pollen of the two male plants (and a small amount of > N.truncata pollen) available free of charge to interested > parties. I just need an SASE like for the seed. The pollen is > frozen, so if your females plants are not in flower, there isn't > much point in getting pollen from me at this time, just wait > until they are in flower. > > Dave Evans > > [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:29:25 -0800 Subject: Re: Aldrovanda & Dionaea Ivan began: >>So most probable is the line beginning with Drosera to >>Dionaea and then Aldrovanda. >The conclusion may in fact be correct (especially the assumption that _Drosera_ is the oldest genus). But I doubt the (oversimplified) premises, and would rather base this theory on the number of recent species, sections, and subgenera, and their global distribution. Kind regards Jan Hi all, Ivan again, I feel the most exciting findings are yet to come. Considering all that we know, and some experiments I have done, it seems most likely that Aldrovanda and Dionaea can be hybridized. The results of such an attempt would be telling in regard to their taxonomic relation and also might lead to some interesting plants for the cultivator. Can you imagine how such a hybrid would look? Since hybrids are intermediate in appearance, I like to think that a hybrid would also look like the evolutionary in-between. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:51:49 +0000 Subject: Re: Drosophyllum In message <001101c08d1f$b9c98bf0$bb67010a@sdevonhctr.swest.nhs.uk>, dennis,balsdon writes > >I hesitate to ask this question after all the high brow stuff of recent days >but as a fairly new CP fan I need the help. > >I have a nine month old drosophyllum that is producing flower buds. I >wasn't expecting it to do this for some months here in southern England. > >Should I let it flower or remove the buds? > This is not unusual in Drosophyllum though they are flowering a little earlier than usual for the south of England. Leave the flowers on. They will not weaken the plant. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:12:08 -0500 Subject: Re: D. linearis > Many thanks to everyone who replied to my D. linearis question. It seems > that the consensus of experience is that this species will grow okay on > a peat and sand mix. Having seen where they grow in habitat I find this > quite surprising, especially as there are plenty of acid peat bogs in > the area as well but not a single D. linearis grows there. Dear Phil, Perhaps, mixing a bit of fine grade marble into the soil will give this plant a boost... I have been trying this with hardy _Pinguicula_, and it's been promising. Dave Evans ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:31:18 +0000 Subject: Re: D. linearis Dave, > > Perhaps, mixing a bit of fine grade marble into the soil will give this >plant a boost... I have been trying this with hardy _Pinguicula_, and it's >been promising. > Certainly the addition of something alkaline is beneficial to most temperate Pinguicula. At the moment I am trial use of rockwool blocks for these plants. Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Connie Steiert" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:46:23 -0700 Subject: Re: Corcovado, Costa Rica I would also be interested in this. I might go to a language school in Costa Rica for a month. Plenty of time to find lots of CPs. What's the deal with collecting CPs in some place like that and bringing them back? Quarantine period? Even legal (US laws)? Dak ################### From: Daniel Murphy Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:50:28 +1100 Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade Dear Barry, >Were the plants field collected or propagated, you may ask... > >It is impossible to tell. But there is a clue... Do you think it could be possible to identify field collected Sarracenia, as opposed to greenhouse cultivated plants, by the insects that are caught in the pitchers? Perhaps the relative abundance of insects or the taxonomic groups would be useful. Dan Murphy ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:46:31 +1100 Subject: U. longifolia Hi Joe I'll be sending you some longifolia ssp forgetiana seed. I've got three forms but this one which grows in my Sarra bog has 40cm (16") flower spikes with up to 8 flowers on them. I'll also upload photos of it. I think this is a beautiful easy to grow easy to flower form. Sorry No other seed is available unless you're a member of the New South Wales CP Society. Greg Bourke EDITOR/SEED BANK MANAGER for the Carnivorous Plant Society of New South Wales Check out the web page @ www.carnivorousplants.asn.au email the society @ carnivorousplantsnsw@hotmail.com My Photos @ http://photos.yahoo.com/sydneycarnivorous ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:35:32 +0000 Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade In message , Daniel Murphy writes > >Dear Barry, > >>Were the plants field collected or propagated, you may ask... >> >>It is impossible to tell. But there is a clue... > >Do you think it could be possible to identify field collected Sarracenia, >as opposed to greenhouse cultivated plants, by the insects that are caught >in the pitchers? Perhaps the relative abundance of insects or the >taxonomic groups would be useful. > I think perhaps the onus should be on the exporter to prove they are from cultivated sources rather than the opposite. It should be fairly easy to provide evidence of growth in cultivation - a nursery premises for instance... Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 13:15:55 +0100 Subject: re: U. longifolia Hi, Sorry for dropping in, but I have a question that someone of you might answer. Can the leaf shape be variable on this species under it's development from a juvenile to a mature plant? The reason I'm asking is that I received a juvenile U. longifolia (White flower, Serra da Araponga) late last year. It has been doing great so far and the leaves has grown quite a bit. When I first got it, the small leaves were long and thin like I had expected, but the latest leaves are much stockier. I just wondered if this is normal or if it might be an invironmental thing. BTW, I have also got an U. alpina that have an almost round "leaf" as well as the normal elongated foliage. Since the "leaf" has traps it must be an utric, but there is always the possibility that another species has invaded the pot. Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 13:16:15 +0100 Subject: P. zecheri leaf cutting? Hi, I've read that one should use the succulent winter leaves on Mexican pinguicula for leaf cuttings, but is it possible to be successful with trapping leaves, since P. zecheri doesn't grow a winter rosette? My plant has grown a larger number of smaller leaves lately and I thought that it would be good time to propagate by leaf cuttings if it viable. Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:24:54 +0000 Subject: Re: U. longifolia Hi, > >Sorry for dropping in, but I have a question that someone of you might >answer. Can the leaf shape be variable on this species under it's >development from a juvenile to a mature plant? Yes, leaf shape can alter as the plant gets larger and older. Another thing that can affect leaf shape and size (and flower size as well) is relative humidity. Generally the more humid the conditions the larger the leaf. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:27:15 +0000 Subject: Re: P. zecheri leaf cutting? Hi, > >I've read that one should use the succulent winter leaves on Mexican >pinguicula for leaf cuttings, but is it possible to be successful with >trapping leaves, since P. zecheri doesn't grow a winter rosette? My >plant has grown a larger number of smaller leaves lately and I thought >that it would be good time to propagate by leaf cuttings if it viable. > Yes you can use the larger carnivorous leaves, though success is likely to be lower than with the succulent winter leaves. The main reason for using the winter leaves is that in the spring they will produce adventitious buds at their base, which is where the new plants grow from. Its really to do with timing rather than the actual leaf type. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:50:45 EST Subject: Re: U. longifolia Greg, U. longifolia subs forgetiana?? Sounds intersting? You want me to join an CP society in AU? Can I send US cash and if not, what kind of money order works? Joe [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "mike wilder" Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 17:40:08 -0000 Subject: ipsg newsletter hello, i am seeking someone who is willing to photocopy issues 1-5 of the ipsg newsletter for me. i can trade real issues of the cpn (almost all of them from 1994-1998), or i can photocopy any article or issue from the cpn since its inception as a color mag (ca. 1977). if anyone has extra issues of number 6 (of the ipsg newsletter), i will pay or trade for that as well. prefer usa person but would certainly appreciate offers from anyone anywhere. i hope no one out there will be upset about photocopying copyrighted stuff; but i'll accept the flames if necessary. thanks--mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 09:41:04 -0800 Subject: Re: Aldrovanda & Dionaea Trap >>Also separate origin of pitchers is unlikely, but there is the case of Sarraceniaceae, Cephalotus and Nepenthes which almost surely developed their traps indipendently. Why the same thing couldn't have happened to snap traps? Drosera traps seem quite suitable for such evolution: consider for example D. kenneallyi: its traps have a shape very similar to the one of Dionaea's; and when they catch prey they close in the same way. If you add to it the rapidity of D. burmannii and if you increase it, you'll maybe obtain one day another snap trap evolved indipendently. Filippo Tassara Hi Filippo and all, Your question is valid. The answer is a probability only. I grow Aldrovanda, Dionaea and sundews and have a particular interest in studying their relationship. I believe that the gin trap evolved only once. Here are the main reasons why. 1) Firstly, it is most reasonable that the aquatic Aldrovanda trap evolved from a trap more like Dionaea's out of water because the sundew trap does not function at all under water. There must have first been a trap more like Dionaea's to begin with which gave rise to Aldrovanda's. So the most logical order is Sundew-Dionaea-Aldrovanda. 2) Secondly, as I pointed out before, the chromosome counts of Aldrovanda 2n = 48 hexaploid [BTW Jan, triploids are sterile] and Dionaea 2n = 32 tetraploid enforce reason number one. 3)Third and last, Fernando's DNA sequencing shows that Dionaea and Aldrovanda are indeed very close. It is true that Aldrovanda's flower is more like a sundew's. This is the obstacle I think is troubling you. I reconcile this by what Jan says, "these evolved long ago"; so the split must have occurred before Dionaea was as it is presently. The proto-Dionaea surely had a flower much like Aldrovanda's. Hope this clears things up. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 21:16:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Nepenthes in Sphagnum Dear Steven, > FWIW I grow many species of Nepenthes in pure Long fiber Sphagnum. > --snip-- > I believe the "safest" mixes are the ones using more of an Orchid > type mix, but the plants will grow _much_ more slowly. If in doubt, I find > live Sphagnum does well as a top dressing, if the plant prefers one mix over > the other, it will simply root into the prefered mix. Well, no doubt small cuttings may due so... > I know "in the wild" > these plants do not grow in Sphagnum, but in horticulture, the conditions > are in no way similar to wild conditions. These plants do not grow in pots > "in the wild" no matter how many pots you tempt them with. Of course this is > in my _very_ limited experience, don't take me too seriously. Very true! I think your conditions are very good for cultivating Nepenthes in this manner. Especially your water and seasons... Greenhouses are much more trouble in the north (think heating over winter) and water is hard for the most part. _Sphagnum_ tends to rot over winter when brought inside and is difficult to keep "fresh". Instead of buying an R/O unit, I just use a peatmoss heavy soil for _Nepenthes_ as Sphagnum doesn't last over time without pure water. I'm glad my plants 'grow much more slowly' actually. They are all inside and if they were fast growing, they would have taken over by now! Dave Evans ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 01:51:07 -0800 Subject: What is Pinguicula oblongiloba? Could someone please give me some information about Pinguicula oblongiloba? I can't find a reference to it in The Savage Garden. Where is it from? What climate? Is it a synonym for another species name? Is there another plant that IS in The Savage Garden that has similar requirements? Thanks, Joe ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 13:03:57 -0000 Subject: Re: P. oblongiloba Hi Jo. The species Pinguicula oblongiloba is from Mexico, now there's a surprise! Like most of the mexican species, it grows high up so despite Mexico being thought of as very hot, the highland climate is somewhat cooler. In fact, days will be hot and nights relatively very cold, though there's no real risk of freezing. It's got a fairly typical Pinguicula-like rosette and a flower that is a very typical purple-violet, again like many Pinguicula. The flower is held erect but this species can have a very long flower stalk, though not every plant shows this. Rests in winter with the dormant non-trapping leaves usually just under the soil surface and visible from above (unlike some species which really do bury themselves where they can't be seen). In cultivation it will enjoy typical "mexican type" cultivation which will be: warm days (I doubt you could easily overheat it as all my tender Pinguicula species suffr temperatures as high as 120F in summer without loss), cooler nights - 5 degree C minimum at any time of year (41F for all decimally challenged brethrin!!!) but I always recommend slightly higher especially if there is any risk plant might be in wet soil in winter. Use a mix of Peat (20%), Sand(10%), Perlite (50%), Vermiculite (10%), Loam (10%) but treat the volumes as approximate - the idea is to have a soil that gets wet easily, stays damp for a good time but freely drains. (At an extreme, I would expect the plant to survive in 20%loam and 80% Perlite. It certainly won't have Vermiculite or Peat in it's wild habitat, nor much sand.) Water until soil is wet. Then allow soil to dry before watering again. In summer the plant will appreciate about 12-13 hours bright light. In winter, drop to about 7 hours and water less frequently allowing the soil to remain dry for days (I allow about a week for similar species) before rewetting. Regards Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 13:04:11 -0000 Subject: stalking prey > Paul Temple, take it away...... Damn! Oh well, yet another area of my ignorance exposed!!! I don't recall that any f my Pinguicula ever displayed bare flower stalks. From memory all have glands and insects are quite frequently trapped. It makes sense for such succulent (I mean this in the cullenary sense) plants to protect themselves from ravaging insects. As to wheher the glands can digest, on this I am no expert (though note that this does not iply I'm expert on anything else!!!), though I'll now read more on it and related topics. Two points. First, most of the books (I've not re-checked them all) completely avoid this subject. They simply refer to the leaves. This includes avoidance by some of the more scientific (rather than popular) titles written by full time botanists. However, the second point is that Pinguicula are rapid feeders. They very quickly digest and absorb their prey having first poured out a small pool of digestive enzymes to help things along. A pool of liquid enzyme would not be too stable if secreted onto a vertcal flower stalk. So it's unlikely that Pinguicula would have evolved to waste too much energy on using the flower stalk as a digestive area as much of the digestive pool of enzymes, and the resulting pool of digested prey, would run off. I'm sure one of our resident full time botanists must have read more on this? Regards Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: william.sherren@ukonline.co.uk Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 14:19:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Giant Cephalotus follicularis problem Hi With the recent postings on problems with Cephalotus follicularis, I was wondering if anyone could me any advice. I have been growing these plants for about 14 years now without problems. Last year I obtained a small bare- rooted tissue cultured specimen of the Giant form of this plant. It established itself nicely during the summer, but last week suddenly started to rot badly..I have sprayed it with a fungicide (although I always feel that wetting a plant thoroughly when its starting to rot is not a good idea!).. But the plant seems to be on the verge of collapse. I have kept it with my other normal Cephalotus follicularis in a well aired cool greenhouse. I keep them in water tray where during the winter I give them just enough water for them to take up..Keeping the compost moist not wet. They receive plenty of light. Any ideas or suggestions, so I do want to succeed with this species. thanks bill www.fly-catchers.co.uk This mail sent through UK Online webmail ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 09:32:26 -0500 Subject: Nepenthes in Sphagnum Hello Dave, and list, FWIW, I grew up and learned about horticulture in Boulder,Colorado. Cold winters are not something I am unfamiliar with. We were fortunate to have very soft mineral free water that came directly off glaciers to use as tap water, when I was young. This was before human population levels in this area made ground water sources a necessity. Before I left Colorado, the tap water was hard enough to make me purchase an RO unit, this was in 1978. The change in water quality was very evident in horticulture, and Sphagnum did break down, and become sour. I agree, fast growing Nepenthes are not always desireable, when faced with cramped conditions. This does not change the fact that many Nepenthes species and hybrids grow better in live Sphagnum, in horticuture, than in other mixes, when placed and grown in proper conditions. Sphagnum also grows and thrives when in proper conditions. I believe people should find whatever mix and method they have the best success with and utilize these with an observant eye and open mind. Take care, Steven Stewart > > FWIW I grow many species of Nepenthes in pure Long fiber Sphagnum. > > --snip-- > > I believe the "safest" mixes are the ones using more of an Orchid > > type mix, but the plants will grow _much_ more slowly. > Well, no doubt small cuttings may due so... > > Very true! I think your conditions are very good for cultivating > Nepenthes in this manner. Especially your water and seasons... > Greenhouses are much more trouble in the north (think heating over > winter) and water is hard for the most part. _Sphagnum_ tends to rot over > winter when brought inside and is difficult to keep "fresh". Instead of > buying an R/O unit, I just use a peatmoss heavy soil for _Nepenthes_ as > Sphagnum doesn't last over time without pure water. > I'm glad my plants 'grow much more slowly' actually. They are all > inside and if they were fast growing, they would have taken over by now! > > Dave Evans ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:52:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Giant Cephalotus follicularis problem Bill, >With the recent postings on problems with >Cephalotus follicularis, I was wondering if >anyone could me any advice. I have been growing >these plants for about 14 years now without >problems. Last year I obtained a small bare- >rooted tissue cultured specimen of the Giant form >of this plant. It established itself nicely >during the summer, but last week suddenly started >to rot badly..I have sprayed it with a fungicide Yes I agree with the point about wetting a plant with fungicide potentially adding to the problem. I use regular sulphur, sold in just about any garden centre, usually for dusting spring bulbs and other cold sensitive plants that are lifted and stored for the winter. The sulphur goes on dry and seems far more effective than any other fungicide that I have used. I think part of the effectiveness is because the sulphur will form a barrier to prevent re-infection. As to your plant I would take emergency action. Remove the plant from its pot and cut away all decaying growth until you are left with only healthy material. Plant up in fresh soil, treat the plant with the sulphur and hope! Even if you only have a small piece of rhizome left there is a good chance that the plant will recover. Its not long until spring now. As to reasons - Cephalotus does die back in this way for no apparent reason. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:13:11 +0100 Subject: Thanks (was: zecheri leaf cutt..and longifolia) Hi Phil, and thanks for anwering both my questions. > Yes, leaf shape can alter as the plant gets larger and older. Another > thing that can affect leaf shape and size (and flower size as well) is > relative humidity. Generally the more humid the conditions the larger > the leaf. > Funny that you should mention the humidity. My longifolia is being kept enclosed (high humidity), so this may explain the difference in leaf shape under my care. > Yes you can use the larger carnivorous leaves, though success is likely > to be lower than with the succulent winter leaves. The main reason for > using the winter leaves is that in the spring they will produce > adventitious buds at their base, which is where the new plants grow > from. Its really to do with timing rather than the actual leaf type. > I guess I'll have to try leaf cuttings then. My only worry is that I might damage the "mother plant", since it isn't very sturdy (shallow roots?). Thanks again, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:32:15 +0000 Subject: Re: Thanks (was: zecheri leaf cutt..and longifolia) Christer, > >> > >I guess I'll have to try leaf cuttings then. My only worry is that I >might damage the "mother plant", since it isn't very sturdy (shallow >roots?). > If you dig around the bases of the leaves you should be able to expose enough of the petiole for the leaf to break of easily. If you grow the plant in an alkaline substrate it will produce far better roots - you'll be able to pick the plant up by its leaves - pot and all! Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Juerg Steiger Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 22:30:24 +0200 Subject: Caspers' Pinguicula Monograph Dear CPers Some days ago the editor of the 200 pages Pinguicula Monograph by Jost Casper (1966, in German language) wrote that he still has some of the books. In case of interest contact Dr. E. Naegele . See also http://www.schweizerbart.de Kind regards Juerg Dr. Juerg F. Steiger University of Bern IAWF, Inselspital 37a CH-3010 Bern, Switzerland Tel +41 (0)31 632 9887 Fax +41 (0)31 632 9871 Private +41 (0)31 972 1979 ################### From: Laurent Legendre Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 10:47:48 +1100 Subject: Re: What is Pinguicula oblongiloba? Hi Joe, P. oblongiloba is actually known for more than a century with the type specimen described in 1874. It is present in several states in Mexico: Durango, Jalisco, Michoacan, Mexico, oaxaca and maybe more which I'm not aware of. P. oblongiloba was classified by Casper with P. macrophylla in a subsection called caudatopsis of section orcheosanthus (contains the very well known P. moranensis which you should find in the Salvage garden) of the subgenus Pinguicula of genus Pinguicula. P. stolonifera has later been added to this subsection. But this classification is based on morphological characters and not growing conditions. Still, P. oblongiloba is not a difficult species to grow. I used to cultivate it like P. gypsicola (also part of section orcheosanthus) or P. macrophylla. Make a more open mix and dry more in the winter than recommended for P. moranensis even though P. moranensis would prefer such conditions too. I hope this helps. It is a nice plant. Best regards, Laurent Legendre ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 23:16:14 -0500 Subject: N. maxima (highland Sulawesi) not pitchering Hi Everyone-- I have a N. maxima that hasn't produced a single new pitcher since its 1/2" stem started growing (currently 8" tall and 2 feet across). There remains a single fully developed pitcher about 6" from the ground rosette, and 8 upper leaves with stiff tendrils and no sign of enlarging pitchers. They haven't browned or dessicated in any way, and because the plant pitchered fine under the same growing conditions earlier, I'm assuming the humidity and temps are okay--although recently with the energy crisis, house temps have fallen into the 50 degree fahrenheit range, but the plant wasn't pitchering even before then. I have the plant in an orchid basket over my kitchen sink and it gets full morning sun for several hours. Other than the basket wires which the petioles have leaned themselves on, there is no support for the tough stem. Could this be my problem? Have any of you experienced a stubborn to pitcher maxima before? BTW, my plant originates from Malesiana Tropicals via a ! ! ! US source. Thanks, Gary Kong __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: "J. Chris Coppick " Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 23:57:26 -0800 Subject: lightweight pots Does anyone have any experience with those "thermal foam" lightweight pots? I have one I'm going to use for a mini-bog, and with water sitting in it constantly I'm naturally worried about toxins, seepage, etc. Thanks. Chris -- Cats don't hunt seals. They would if they knew what they were and where to find them. But they don't, so that's all right. -- (Terry Pratchett, The Unadulterated Cat) ################### From: "Bill Sherren" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:40:52 -0000 Subject: Giant Cephalotus follicularis problem Hi With the recent postings on problems with Cephalotus follicularis, I was wondering if anyone could me any advice. I have been growing these plants for about 14 years now without problems. Last year I obtained a small bare-rooted tissue cultured specimen of the Giant form of this plant. It established itself nicely during the summer, but last week suddenly started to rot badly..I have sprayed it with a fungicide (although I always feel that wetting a plant thoroughly when its starting to rot is not a good idea!).. But the plant seems to be on the verge of collapse. I have kept it with my other normal Cephalotus follicularis in a well aired cool greenhouse. I keep them in water tray where during the winter I give them just enough water for them to take up..Keeping the compost moist not wet. They receive plenty of light. Any ideas or suggestions, so I do want to succeed with this species. thanks bill www.fly-catchers.co.uk ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:42:07 -0500 Subject: D.schwackei, villosa, graomogolensis Though their growth is still slow, I wanted to point out that my montana schwackeis grew a lot better over the winter than they did over the summer. I think the secret to growing this plant might be providing it with VERY COOL temperatures all year long. (max of 70F). I have noticed Drosera villosa prefers very similar conditions. I have plants which just sat there and didn't grow for over a year after I exposed them to a month of hot temperatures! D.graomogolensis seems to tolerate higher temps than either of these with no problem. sundewmatt ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:45:47 -0500 Subject: Trade: D.sp.Emas seed for D.arenicola seed (or similar) Hey CPers... I've got a small quantity of fresh (viable) D.sp.emas seed for trade for TRUE D.arenicola seed or seed of other rare S.American or African Drosera. Please email me if you have anything tempting. Thanks! sundewmatt ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:52:04 -0500 Subject: RE: Refridgerated Seeds and Fungus > I brought them >out yesterday to inspect them and noticed a thinish layer of fungus on >the top of the seed/perlite mass. All the seeds still look shiny and Hi Mike, Your fungus is due to the 100% (or nearly 100%) humidity caused by sealing the plastic bags. The problem will probably go away when you plant out your seed in pots (as long as you don't put your pots in sealed plastic bags.) David Atlanta ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:08:37 -0500 Subject: RE: Drosophyllum >Should I let it flower or remove the buds? Hi Dennis, Let it flower. You may need the seed later David Atlanta ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:35:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Refridgerated Seeds and Fungus Thanks. I put the entire mass into a pitcher of water and bonomyl and stirred like crazy and let it soak for a little bit. Everything's dry now and all the seeds look fresh and shiny. There are a few clumps of dead fungus matter that's got seeds and perlite in it and even the seeds in that look fine for the most part. I'll plant them this week. How long should I expect them to take before germinating? Mike "Mellard, David" wrote: > > > I brought them > >out yesterday to inspect them and noticed a thinish layer of fungus on > >the top of the seed/perlite mass. All the seeds still look shiny and > > Hi Mike, > > Your fungus is due to the 100% (or nearly 100%) humidity caused by sealing > the plastic bags. The problem will probably go away when you plant out your > seed in pots (as long as you don't put your pots in sealed plastic bags.) > > David > Atlanta ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:39:06 EST Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade < Dear Barry, Were the plants field collected or propagated, you may ask... It is impossible to tell. But there is a clue... Do you think it could be possible to identify field collected Sarracenia, as opposed to greenhouse cultivated plants, by the insects that are caught in the pitchers? Perhaps the relative abundance of insects or the taxonomic groups would be useful. Dan Murphy> That is an interesting thought, and one I hadn't thought of. There is a way I can usually determine whether a Sarracenia plant was field collected or not. The soil in which they naturally grow (depending on species and location) can be a very thick "muck". It adheres to the root system and rhizome, and is very difficult to remove. The first time I encountered this was a decade ago, as I was transplanting wild flavas from a site being cleared to another active flava site about a mile downrange. In an old copy of ICPN (or in Schnells book, I cant remember off the top of my head) it had stated that when you transplant plants, to thoroughly clean the plant of any soil to avoid contamination of the new site. This was much easier said than done. The soil must have clay or similar material in it, as it was very difficult to remove. Those removing plants from the wild for resale have the same issues. It is very difficult to remove all of the native "muck" from a plant. So they either don't remove all of it, or they remove practically all of the roots from the plant to make the process easier. Sarracenias have an extensive root system, so lack of genreous root system or the presence the the black "muck" on the rhizome and root area is normally an indicator that it recently living in the wild. I'd be interested in hearing of any other "sleuths" out there who can come up with other ideas to determine whether a plant is wild collected or not. Michael Catalani ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:56:15 EST Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade The talk of wild collected plants has made me think of a question I had, and I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to it. Many moons ago, ICPN ran a story on Cresco Nurseries in Holland, and their extensive CP propagation efforts. The picture on the cover of ICPN showed a shot inside the greenhouse in which grew 6 million or so flytraps. In a later edition of ICPN, an article (I believe by Larry Mellichamp, but not sure) had said that a Holland nursery featured in ICPN was believed to be mass propagating vft's until "keen eyes" proved otherwise. I took this to be that someone looking at the pictures from Cresco in ICPN spotted something to prove that the flytraps were field collected. Does anyone know if it was Cresco they were referring to, and if so, what the person saw in the pictures? Was it the soil they were growing in? Or did they spot a native Carolina plant in a pot growing with the flytrap? Michael Catalani ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:13:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Identifying field collected Sarracenia by prey Dear Barry, >Were the plants field collected or propagated, you may ask... > >It is impossible to tell. But there is a clue... Do you think it could be possible to identify field collected Sarracenia, as opposed to greenhouse cultivated plants, by the insects that are caught in the pitchers? Perhaps the relative abundance of insects or the taxonomic groups would be useful. Hey Dan, I doubt it. Someone might be growing their plants out doors, but within normal Sarracenia range. The prey spectrum would probably be quite similar. Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:31:54 EST Subject: Re: N. maxima (highland Sulawesi) not pitchering << Hi Everyone-- I have a N. maxima that hasn't produced a single new pitcher since its 1/2" stem started growing (currently 8" tall and 2 feet across). There remains a single fully developed pitcher about 6" from the ground rosette, and 8 upper leaves with stiff tendrils and no sign of enlarging pitchers. They haven't browned or dessicated in any way, and because the plant pitchered fine under the same growing conditions earlier, I'm assuming the humidity and temps are okay--although recently with the energy crisis, house temps have fallen into the 50 degree fahrenheit range, but the plant wasn't pitchering even before then. I have the plant in an orchid basket over my kitchen sink and it gets full morning sun for several hours. Other than the basket wires which the petioles have leaned themselves on, there is no support for the tough stem. Could this be my problem? Have any of you experienced a stubborn to pitcher maxima before? BTW, my plant originates from Malesiana Tropicals via ! a US source. Thanks, Gary Kong >> I have malesiana's maximas in my highland nep house (even have the lowland forms) and I can tell you that the 50 degree nights wont be a problem as long as the day temps can exceed 70 degrees. If the tendrils are short (2-3 inches) the problem could be that the day temps are a little cool. (My plants have experienced The plant may also be preparing to flower now, as every flowering size maxima I own right now is in flower. N. maxima's is one Npenethes that seems to have no problem pitchering even if the tendril doesnt grab. But I believe from what you describe that the problem may in fact be humidity related. While the plant was smaller, the local humidity provided by the soil in the basket allowed pitchers to develop. If the plant has exceed the size of the pot (or basket), then the local humidity provided by the pot isn't reaching the tendril ends. This problem may go away as soon a spring arrives, and the natural humidity in the air begins to rise. (It's normally very dry in the winter) Or you may try to cover the entire plant in plastic for a few weeks. That should tell you if its humidity related or not. Michael Catalani ################### From: john green Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:36:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Identifying field collected Sarracenia by prey > Do you think it could be possible to identify field collected > Sarracenia, as opposed to greenhouse cultivated plants, by the > insects that are caught in the pitchers? Perhaps the relative > abundance of insects or the taxonomic groups would be useful. > > Hey Dan, > > I doubt it. Someone might be growing their plants out doors, > but within normal Sarracenia range. The prey spectrum would > probably be quite similar. > > Barry Also, consider that plants propagated for sale need not be grown in a greenhouse. One listserv member purchased land with a population of Sarracenia and grows them for hobby and wholesale. Then the plants would have both prey found in the wild and soil from the wild. It's perfectly legal and ethical, and the land isn't being ruined. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:10:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copying back issues of CPN >i am seeking someone who is willing to photocopy issues 1-5 of the ipsg >newsletter for me. i can trade real issues of the cpn (almost all of them >from 1994-1998), or i can photocopy any article or issue from the cpn >since its inception as a color mag (ca. 1977). if anyone has extra issues >of number 6 (of the ipsg newsletter), i will pay or trade for that as >well. prefer usa person but would certainly appreciate offers from anyone >anywhere. i hope no one out there will be upset about photocopying >copyrighted stuff; but i'll accept the flames if necessary. thanks--mike Consider yourself mildly toasted, Mike. I'm working on the ICPS budget, and lament the rising costs of publication, postage, etc. BUYING back issues of CPN certainly helps the ICPS survive and prosper more than private "presses" such as your own. Crackle crackle crackle! (flame sound effects) Hell hath no fury like an editor scorned! :) Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: RonsNewID@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:29:07 EST Subject: Re: Drosophyllum > << I have a nine month old drosophyllum that is producing flower buds. I > wasn't expecting it to do this for some months here in southern England. > > Should I let it flower or remove the buds? >> Last spring I let mine flower in its first year and the plant showed a steady decline in robustness over the next 3 months. Then it died. (On an exceptionally hot day that included a missed watering. But it was probably doomed anyway.) I mentioned this to Peter D'Amato and he said he had similar experience and to not let it flower its first year. FWIW, this is in California. Ron Sbragia ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:51:45 -0500 Subject: RE: Drosophyllum >I mentioned this to Peter D'Amato and he said he had similar experience and >to not let it flower its first year. Although I, like many of you, admire Peter greatly, the plant did not die because it flowered in the first year. It died because of its growing conditions. I've had D. live 3 years and then die because I let it get too dry. It flowered faithfully each summer. I still have the seed and will try again. I grew mine in 10% peat and 90% sand and watered when the soil became almost completely dry. At times, the plant would wilt because I didn't pay enough attention to watering it. It recovered each time -- except the last time when I was gone for 4 days and wasn't around to notice that it went dry. David ################### From: Andrew Bate Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 18:59:41 +0000 Subject: Anyone interested in a European CP trading page? Hi, Now that Spring is not far off and plants will soon need dividing I am wondering if any of the European based growers out there would be interested a European focussed plant trading list? I currently run a UK based plant trading page at my web site (address below) but have had to turn down adverts in the past from growers living in Europe as I wanted to keep it specifically UK oriented. I know that there is a world-wide list that Rick Walker operates but with phytosanitary certificates being needed when sending plants from Europe to the USA (etc) it seems a good idea to have a European page so that growers can trade amongst themselves without this problem. If anyone is interested then let me know by email (NOT replies to this list please to cut down on traffic) and if I get enough positive responses I shall start one up alongside my UK based page. Regards, Andrew -- andrew@cpuk.org.uk | A UK Specific Guide http://www.cpuk.org.uk | to Carnivorous Plant Resources ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:16:29 +0000 Subject: Re: Legal(?) Sarracenia trade Michael, > >The talk of wild collected plants has made me think of a question I had, and >I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to it. Many moons ago, ICPN ran a >story on Cresco Nurseries in Holland, and their extensive CP propagation >efforts. The picture on the cover of ICPN showed a shot inside the >greenhouse in which grew 6 million or so flytraps. In a later edition of >ICPN, an article (I believe by Larry Mellichamp, but not sure) had said that >a Holland nursery featured in ICPN was believed to be mass propagating vft's >until "keen eyes" proved otherwise. I took this to be that someone looking >at the pictures from Cresco in ICPN spotted something to prove that the >flytraps were field collected. Does anyone know if it was Cresco they were >referring to, and if so, what the person saw in the pictures? Was it the I know that Cresco nurseries sell an awful lot of VFTs so the quantity of 6,000,000 plants is no surprise to me at all. The plants are tissue cultured by a commercial lab in India, though I heard that this source was switched a few years ago because of reliability problems. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:27:35 +0000 Subject: Re: Drosophyllum David and all, > >>I mentioned this to Peter D'Amato and he said he had similar experience and > >>to not let it flower its first year. > >Although I, like many of you, admire Peter greatly, the plant did not die >because it flowered in the first year. It died because of its growing >conditions. I've had D. live 3 years and then die because I let it get too >dry. It flowered faithfully each summer. I still have the seed and will >try again. > >I grew mine in 10% peat and 90% sand and watered when the soil became almost >completely dry. At times, the plant would wilt because I didn't pay enough >attention to watering it. It recovered each time -- except the last time >when I was gone for 4 days and wasn't around to notice that it went dry. > Interestingly plants in the wild will often apparently die off completely during the dry season but return to growth once the rains return. The key to growing this species seems to be to use a large enough pot so fluctuations in soil moisture during the dry season are minimised. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:29:51 EST Subject: Re: Identifying field collected Sarracenia by prey << Also, consider that plants propagated for sale need not be grown in a greenhouse. One listserv member purchased land with a population of Sarracenia and grows them for hobby and wholesale. Then the plants would have both prey found in the wild and soil from the wild. It's perfectly legal and ethical, and the land isn't being ruined. John Green >> I remember years ago that Bob Hanrahan from WIP (World Insectivorous Plants) did this as well. Doing this properly can be a very good thing, as the site is managed and taken care of. A peson who buys land to protect these plants and ensure their survival is doing the plants a service, even if they sell some of the plants. Over the span of a few years a properly maintained stand of Sarracenia will generate a tremendous amount of material. Anyone who sells plants from their own land in which they are actively managing to ensure the survival of the site should be encouraged to do so. Not only is it legal and ethical, it should be supported. On the flip side, someone who treks down to the gulf a few times a year to collect Sarracenia from a site that does not belong to them, even under the pretense that the site is about to be destroyed, and sells the plants are doing us, and especially the future of these plants, a monumental disservice. Sarracenia are very easily propagated, and can be done so very cheaply. Someone who buys a plot of land in which Sarracenia naturally grow wouldnt be doing so just to sell off the Sarracenia plants that were on it, it wouldnt be worth money. They could, for far less money, develop a greenhouse range and propagate the plants. I know at times I can sound a little overbearing about field collecting plants. However, selling ones own plants from one's own land that one is managing is something that I totally support, and I wish more private owners could get involved in this way. Michael Catalani ################### From: "Duggins, Stephen R" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:39:22 -0800 Subject: Nepenthes ultra basic soil Thanks to all the people who responded about my Cephalotus problems. I think I will experiment with the three struggling pots and keep them under the various conditions, (40 - 75 Deg. F, 60 - 75 Deg. F, 70 Deg. F), and see which one does the best. I'll keep you posted. I am new to the list and read with interest the info about laterite in the archives. After reading about the soil less Nepenthes mix in last year's CPN, I decided to try it for myself. Since I don't live in Germany, I had to substitute components. I found expanded clay pellets for hydroponic orchid use at the local Home Depot, as well as red volcanic rock. After looking for a Seramis-like product, I heard about laterite and specifically a baked laterite product from Seachem called Flourite. These seemed to be too rich in iron, so I cut the proportion of this in half and substituted white pumice rock for a final mix of 2:2:1:1 of expanded clay pellets : red volcanic rock : laterite or Flourite : white pumice with a time-release fertilizer added per the instructions in the CPN article. I don't have a lot of extra Nepenthes but I did have three small 2", 3" and 5" N. mirabilis that I separated from a larger plant with roots intact. I planted the smallest one in the mix with the Flourite and the 3" in the mix with the laterite, and the 5" in my standard Nepenthes mix, (below with extra peat added), in 4" pots. I put them both in a tray with 1/2" of water in a greenhouse with 70%-80% R.H., 75-90 Degrees F., under two 40 watt fluorescent bulbs. The smallest plant, in Flourite, died after 3 weeks. I think this was due to the fertilizer and the size of the plant, (small roots), and not the Fluorite as I have added Flourite to other plants and they seem to love it - nice and dark green. The other plant is still growing strong after four months, having doubled in size. The leaves are darker green, but the pitchers are smaller than the similar sized, slower growing plant, in the more traditional mix. I know this is not even close to scientific method - but it was fun and interesting! Which brings me to another question. Has anyone tried creating an ultramafic soil mix? I took my standard Nepenthes recipe: approximately 70% fir bark, 8% red lava rock, 8% white pumice, 7% sand, and 7% peat moss; and added three pinches of granulated dolomotic lime and a small handful of Flourite to a 4" pot. The N. rajah got a top dressing and is growing well. The N. rafflesiana "Giant" also got a top dressing and is growing as slowly as it was before the treatment. The N. northiana was accidentally uprooted and is slowly recovering from shock, (hopefully). The N. burbidgeae is growing very slowly and put out one new leaf that is 1/3 the size of previous leaves, that were grown in its previous environment before I got the plant. Its really too soon to make any conclusions, and with no control plants impossible to make any. Anyone else out there with similar experiments? Steve Duggins 714 - 762 - 0562 ################### From: Biodan@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:26:17 EST Subject: Darlingtonia in a classroom I just got a Darlingtonia at the local Lowe's. (First time I've tried this. A bit hot here in Georgia to keep them outside!) Nice healthy looking little plant - and I want it to stay that way! I want to keep it in my Biology classroom. The idea I had was to place it in a tray into which I would add ice chips daily (keeping it cool). Then I can place it at a south-facing window, under a grow light, or an ambient light condition with reflected sunlight and 'normal' room flourescents. Any suggestions? And would a potting mix suitable for Sarracenias be sufficient? Dan [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:30:52 -0200 Subject: Re: A & D Dear Jan, Filippo, and Ivan, (BTW: VFT and D are the same thing below = Dionaea. Aldrovanda appears as A. Drosera is Drosera.) > Interesting, but you should include _Ancistrocladus_ in your > analysis.... blablabla This is exactly what I wanted to avoid doing: > /Nepenthaceae > | > | /Ancistrocladaceae > |/+ > /+|\Dioncophyllaceae > |\+ > | \-Drosophyllaceae > /+ > |\Droseraceae > | > | /Plumbaginaceae > |/+ > ||\Polygonaceae > /+| > |\+/Tamaricaceae > | \+ > | \Frankeniaceae > /+ > |\Simmondsiaceae > | > | /Chenopodiaceae > | /+ > | |\Amaranthaceae > |/+ > ||\Nyctaginaceae > \+ > \Portulacaceae Except you, me and a few other phylogeny nuts, I don't think anybody else wasted time trying to understand the above. I was trying to make it as simple and as accessible as possible. Especially because most people here have never heard of any other of these non-CP plant families and couldn't care less about them. Furthermore, whoever wanted to know more could always go check out your excellent article about the subject in CPN! :):) > Is _Drosera_ monophyletic (incl. _D. regia_) in your trees? Yes. But in some trees it appeared on a branch with A&D. The bootstrap value was not high either way, but higher when Drosera were monophyletic. > Also separate origin of pitchers is unlikely, but there is the case of > Sarraceniaceae, Cephalotus and Nepenthes which almost surely developed their > traps indipendently. > Why the same thing couldn't have happened to snap traps? Humm, I believe pitchers are a whole different story. Like the sticky leaves of Drosophyllum, Pinguicula, Roridula, and many non-CPs, pitchers are a relatively "simple" trap type. Maybe not as simple as sticky leaves, but which certainly take fewer mutations to evolve than something as complex as a snap-trap which involves fast movement of the lobes and communication through trigger hairs. Have you ever noticed that one touch to the trigger hiars does not close a VFT trap? And that water doesn't close it either, not even a strong spray?? Imagine the celular adaptations involved here... Not to mention that the traps have to reopen themselves after digestion and absorption are completed. Pitchers just sit there. They may release enzymes and absorb nutrients, but the beauty of the traps is something easily evolved through natural selection by any plant that needs to attract insects (pollination or predation). The pitcher seems to be a simple folding of the leaf, if I remember well, shown by the mid-rib "scar" (although I think maybe Cephalotus might be of peltate origin, an invagination instead of folding... Jan help me here!). Folding of leaves into tubular formats does not appear to me to be nearly as specialized as the A&D leaf morphology. So because it is less "difficult" to evolve is probably why we see 3 possible evolutionary origins for pitcher traps (Nepenthaceae, Sarraceniaceae, and Cephalotaceae) and so many sticky traps with at least a few evolutionary origins. > About Aldrovanda, it is clearly related to Drosera, but it is completely > different morphologically; and this is obvious if you admit the very ancient > origin of this genus. If I remember well, detailed morphological studies of the traps showed instead that they were in fact very similar. Just because one is aquatic and the other terrestrial does not make them completely different. Look at Utrics! We've got aquatic, terrestrials, affixed aquatics, epiphytic, tuberous, rheophytic -- a vast variety of adaptations in a single genus! And much more recent too, evolution-wise. > Dionaea, on the other hand, is still very similar to some species of the > genus Drosera, which should be very strange if the two genera separated more > than 65 millions years ago. Just because it's terrestrial? Flower-wise, Aldrovanda is much more similar to Drosera than VFT. Pollen-wise too. > 1) Firstly, it is most reasonable that the aquatic Aldrovanda trap evolved from a trap more like Dionaea's out of water because the sundew trap does not function at all under water. There must have first been a trap more like Dionaea's to begin with which gave rise to Aldrovanda's. So the most logical order is Sundew-Dionaea-Aldrovanda. I agree. But just because A is "farther" away from Drosera does not mean it will be as a whole more different from Drosera. Characters usually evolve independently. So the ancestor of A&D may not have looked like either plant, but may have been a mixture of both. So it is not at all strange that certain characters of A are more like those of Drosera even if you believe that it evolved from a VFT-like ancestor. So the 5 styles of A might have been present in the common ancestor of A&D, but was lost in the VFT lineage (actually, not lost, but incremented in number). On the other hand the common A&D ancestor was probably terrestrial, but this was lost in the A lineage as these evolved into aquatic plants. You see? Evolution goes both ways. All ways. That's why we can't say, for example, that the ancestor of Drosera looked like Drosophyllum. Their sticky traps probably had a common evolutionary origin, but both have been evolving separately for who-knows-how-many-million-years. So some of the Drosophyllum characteristics may be "primitive" while other may be derived -- and same with Drosera. >2) Secondly, as I pointed out before, the chromosome counts of Aldrovanda 2n = 48 hexaploid [BTW Jan, triploids are sterile] and Dionaea 2n = 32 tetraploid enforce reason number one. This is interesting! Did you find this yourself? Where are the plants from? 3)Third and last, Fernando's DNA sequencing shows that Dionaea and Aldrovanda are indeed very close. Well, it shows they're close, but hasn't yet led me to any conclusion regarding the two possible family trees I sent previously (although I do think it's more likely that A&D are on the same branch, sister to Drosera, showing a single origin of the snap traps). > It is true that Aldrovanda's flower is more like a sundew's. This is the obstacle I think is troubling you. I reconcile this by what Jan says, "these evolved long ago"; so the split must have occurred before Dionaea was as it is presently. The proto-Dionaea surely had a flower much like Aldrovanda's. Hope this clears things up. Ooops, I repeated you above! So we agree...:) Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:40:27 -0200 Subject: re: U. longifolia "Serra da Araponga" white fl. To Chrsi and all, > Sorry for dropping in, but I have a question that someone of you might > answer. Can the leaf shape be variable on this species under it's > development from a juvenile to a mature plant? I've never grown it from seeds, so I can't be sure. But I sure do see lots of variation in leaf shape in the wild! > The reason I'm asking is that I received a juvenile U. longifolia (White > flower, Serra da Araponga) late last year. It has been doing great so > far and the leaves has grown quite a bit. When I first got it, the small > leaves were long and thin like I had expected, but the latest leaves are > much stockier. I just wondered if this is normal or if it might be an > invironmental thing. It's probably environmental, I've seen this stockyness X fragile leaves in the wild as well. Anyways, congratulations on growing this plant! I consider this plant one of my most important finds. What a fantastic day it was back in 1996 when we reached the top of the Serra da Araponga and were dazzled by loads of U.longifolia covering the boggy, grassy mountain top -- half of them albino and half normal. Yet "normal" was hardly the word, since this local form (albino or not) had more flowers per scape than at any other site I've ever seen this species. Not to mention the D.villosa and G.lobata we saw there.... Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil P.S. Has anyone got these albino U.longifolia to flower yet??????? ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:51:54 -0600 Subject: Artificial Bog and water recirculation... After several years of being out of the CP cultivation hobby (usual excuses - got married, went to school, got broke, bought a house, started a business, etc...) I'm finally getting back into it. For some reason I'm convinced that live spagnum grown in containers and the plants grown therein will grow better if the water is flowing and have devised a little submerged pump in a 10gal reservoir and a drain system that will circulate rain-water through several 4" deep containers into which I'll plant my spagnum and plants. I'm just seeking re-affirmation on the wisdom of this. I feel that standing water leads to a collection of toxins from decomposition, plant waste and stagnation that circulation, and aeration within the reservoir with an aquarium air pump to promote the aerobic breakdown of toxins and waste, will help keep the water fresh and the spagnum healthy. I believe healthy spagnum usually means healthy plants. I figure I'll perhaps get some crushed volcanic rock to filter the water through and aerate the rock to give the cleansing aerobic bacteria something to hang on to. In nature, bogs are usually adjacent to streams and benefit from a little current there as well as run-off from rainwater that potted plants don't enjoy and I am hoping to mimic nature. By adjusting the height of the flexible drain pipes I can regulate the depth of the water from 1/2 inch to full to mimic wet and dry periods. I can also regulate the rate of circulation from 1 to 4 gallons per hour. I could also put the pump on a timer and circulate a little every day. Back in the good ol' days I had numerous milk jug bottoms which were all but over-flowing with healthy spagnum which I kept at least 3/4 full of water. As a result, my CP's were also very happy. I'm hoping I can get that kind of success and better with a recirculation system. It'll at least make it easier to water the plants - I just keep the reservoir topped off. As soon as I get the system assembled and working I'll post some pics. A trip to Walmart and $70 bucks of drip irrigation parts, pond pump and hose pretty much does the trick. I'll probably have to vent the main drain hose that the smaller drain hoses connect to in order to prevent a siphoning effect. Suggestions and input is certainly welcome. Cheers, Mike ################### From: jneps Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:08:08 -0700 Subject: Re: Nepenthes ultra basic soil Hi Stephen, I have been growing a number of the plants you mention for several years. During that time, I have not attempted to provide any sort of unusual compost. While I cannot state with certainty that this is unimportant, I do believe that it is not nearly as critical as one might at first believe. For example, I have grown N. burbidgeae from 1 CM seedlings to near maturity in a 1:1:1 mix of peat, orchid bark and charcoal. Similar results have been obtained with N. northiana, N. rajah, etc. In short, I claim to be no authority, but my results suggest, at least in the case of these species, that environmental conditions and feeding are probably more important than any specific compost. If you're curious about my results, I can send you some pictures. Happy growing! Jeff Shafer Duggins, Stephen R wrote: > > Thanks to all the people who responded about my Cephalotus problems. I think > I will experiment with the three struggling pots and keep them under the > various conditions, (40 - 75 Deg. F, 60 - 75 Deg. F, 70 Deg. F), and see > which one does the best. I'll keep you posted. > > I am new to the list and read with interest the info about laterite in the > archives. After reading about the soil less Nepenthes mix in last year's > CPN, I decided to try it for myself. Since I don't live in Germany, I had to > substitute components. I found expanded clay pellets for hydroponic orchid > use at the local Home Depot, as well as red volcanic rock. After looking for > a Seramis-like product, I heard about laterite and specifically a baked > laterite product from Seachem called Flourite. These seemed to be too rich > in iron, so I cut the proportion of this in half and substituted white > pumice rock for a final mix of 2:2:1:1 of expanded clay pellets : red > volcanic rock : laterite or Flourite : white pumice with a time-release > fertilizer added per the instructions in the CPN article. I don't have a lot > of extra Nepenthes but I did have three small 2", 3" and 5" N. mirabilis > that I separated from a larger plant with roots intact. I planted the > smallest one in the mix with the Flourite and the 3" in the mix with the > laterite, and the 5" in my standard Nepenthes mix, (below with extra peat > added), in 4" pots. I put them both in a tray with 1/2" of water in a > greenhouse with 70%-80% R.H., 75-90 Degrees F., under two 40 watt > fluorescent bulbs. The smallest plant, in Flourite, died after 3 weeks. I > think this was due to the fertilizer and the size of the plant, (small > roots), and not the Fluorite as I have added Flourite to other plants and > they seem to love it - nice and dark green. The other plant is still growing > strong after four months, having doubled in size. The leaves are darker > green, but the pitchers are smaller than the similar sized, slower growing > plant, in the more traditional mix. I know this is not even close to > scientific method - but it was fun and interesting! > > Which brings me to another question. Has anyone tried creating an ultramafic > soil mix? I took my standard Nepenthes recipe: approximately 70% fir bark, > 8% red lava rock, 8% white pumice, 7% sand, and 7% peat moss; and added > three pinches of granulated dolomotic lime and a small handful of Flourite > to a 4" pot. The N. rajah got a top dressing and is growing well. The N. > rafflesiana "Giant" also got a top dressing and is growing as slowly as it > was before the treatment. The N. northiana was accidentally uprooted and is > slowly recovering from shock, (hopefully). The N. burbidgeae is growing very > slowly and put out one new leaf that is 1/3 the size of previous leaves, > that were grown in its previous environment before I got the plant. Its > really too soon to make any conclusions, and with no control plants > impossible to make any. Anyone else out there with similar experiments? > > Steve Duggins > 714 - 762 - 0562 ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:47:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Darlingtonia in a classroom Dan, Is your classroom air conditioned at night as well as during the day? What about during the summer? I've known people to have good success growing Darlingtonia indoors under lights in air conditioning. But if they turn the ac down at night, that could be bad... Darlingtonia are used to cool nights and warm days. I've had pretty good success growing them outside here in hot and humid St. Louis by sinking the whole pot in the lid of a large white styrofoam box, and keeping the plant in mostly shade (a little early morning sun). Indoors, I would be inclined to grow them under lights instead of the south window, but that's just my guess. In nature, I've seen them out in the blazing full sun, but they were rooted on a sheer cliff with constant cold water running down around their roots. Use a very well-drained media, even more so than for Sarracenia. Straight live sphagnum moss works, or a combination of dried sphagnum, perlite, a little peat and sand, etc. Also, I generally don't let my Darlingtonia sit in stagnant water (they might like to sit in constantly recirulated and aerated water, but not stagnant water). Good luck! Susan > I just got a Darlingtonia at the local Lowe's. (First time I've > tried this. A bit hot here in Georgia to keep them outside!) Nice > healthy looking little plant - and I want it to stay that way! I want > to keep it in my Biology classroom. The idea I had was to place it in > a tray into which I would add ice chips daily (keeping it cool). Then > I can place it at a south-facing window, under a grow light, or an > ambient light condition with reflected sunlight and 'normal' room > flourescents. Any suggestions? And would a potting mix suitable for > Sarracenias be sufficient? > Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:02:15 -0800 Subject: Re: Ping Stalking Prey >>I don't recall that any of my Pinguicula ever displayed bare flower stalks. From memory all have glands and insects are quite frequently trapped. It makes sense for such succulent (I mean this in the cullenary sense) plants to protect themselves from ravaging insects. As to wheher the glands can digest, on this I am no expert Paul Temple Hi Paul and all, Althought the flower stalks of Pinguicula do have retentive glands and are able to capture insects, the stalks lack the separate unstalked nonsticky digestive glands found on the leaf surface. Therefore, the flower stalks cannot secrete any digestive fluid. The sticky glands on the flower stalks are for deterring insects which might feed on the flowers. Many noncarnivarous plants also have such sticky glands located on their flower stalks for this purpose. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 11:53:47 -0600 Subject: Re: Darlingtonia in a classroom I grew mine inside in an apartment by a north facing window with supplimental light from grow-lights with 14-16 hours of light during the peak growing season. Normal comfortable air-conditioning day and night. The compost was straight live spagnum and they were planted in milk jug bottoms (a milk jug with the top cut off). I used rain water and when the water level almost bottomed out I'd fill it back up to 3/4 full (3/4 up to the top of the spagnum). The Darlings loved it and even sent off a whole mess of shoots that became new plants and very quickly over-grew their modest bog. I'd feed the mature traps a baby cricket from the local pet store, and occasionally a small roach (bachelor in an apartment - there will definately be a roach or two...). If you use a similar setup, one thing I'd do a little different in hindsite is periodically drain all the water and give it a good flushing with fresh rain-water to remove any buildup - even rainwater contains minute amounts of salts that can build up after time. A laboratory water pump like one from Edmund Scientifics could be used to flush it out. I'm experimenting with a built in recirculation system that would eliminate some of that work and make managing water levels and water quality much easier. Make it a project for the students. IMHO, rain-water is better for them than even distilled water. It's already acidified from atmospheric nitrogen and probably has super-minute quantities of nutrients picked up from the air that the spagnum finds palatable. I'd run out to the water drain spout with a handfull of jugs every time it rained. Now I've got a 35 gallon plastic trash-can that I've converted into a sort of cistern. Keep a screen on it to limit mosquitoes - or seal it back up after the storm. Cheers, Mike Susan Farrington wrote: > > Dan, > > Is your classroom air conditioned at night as well as during the day? > What about during the summer? I've known people to have good > success growing Darlingtonia indoors under lights in air conditioning. > But if they turn the ac down at night, that could be bad... Darlingtonia > are used to cool nights and warm days. I've had pretty good success > growing them outside here in hot and humid St. Louis by sinking the > whole pot in the lid of a large white styrofoam box, and keeping the > plant in mostly shade (a little early morning sun). Indoors, I would be > inclined to grow them under lights instead of the south window, but > that's just my guess. In nature, I've seen them out in the blazing full > sun, but they were rooted on a sheer cliff with constant cold water > running down around their roots. > > Use a very well-drained media, even more so than for Sarracenia. > Straight live sphagnum moss works, or a combination of dried > sphagnum, perlite, a little peat and sand, etc. Also, I generally don't let > my Darlingtonia sit in stagnant water (they might like to sit in > constantly recirulated and aerated water, but not stagnant water). > > Good luck! > > Susan > > > I just got a Darlingtonia at the local Lowe's. (First time I've > > tried this. A bit hot here in Georgia to keep them outside!) Nice > > healthy looking little plant - and I want it to stay that way! I want > > to keep it in my Biology classroom. The idea I had was to place it in > > a tray into which I would add ice chips daily (keeping it cool). Then > > I can place it at a south-facing window, under a grow light, or an > > ambient light condition with reflected sunlight and 'normal' room > > flourescents. Any suggestions? And would a potting mix suitable for > > Sarracenias be sufficient? > > > > Susan Farrington > Missouri Botanical Garden > P.O. Box 299 > St. Louis MO 63166-0299 > susan.farrington@mobot.org > (314)577-9402 ################### From: Robert Ziemer Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 10:09:29 -0800 Subject: re: Copying back issues of CPN Barry, I absolutely do not wish to unleash "Hell hath no fury", and, I am certain that I am poorly informed, but I wonder if ICPS has considered an Internet subscription service for CPN? I have encountered at least three versions of on-line journals: 1) an electronic journal available free to anyone. See http://www.freemedicaljournals.com/ 2) an electronic journal free to those members that subscribe to the hard-copy journal. See http://earth.agu.org/wrr/wrr_general.html#access 3) an electronic journal that is available by subscription only. See http://www.nrc.ca/cisti/journals/cjfas/fish1-97.html I am not suggesting that any one of the above models would fit CPN, but it might be a mechanism to reduce costs and increase readership. Bob Ziemer Barry wrote: > I'm working on the ICPS budget, and lament the rising costs of > publication, postage, etc. BUYING back issues of CPN certainly helps the > ICPS survive and prosper more than private "presses" such as your own. > > Crackle crackle crackle! (flame sound effects) Hell hath no fury like an > editor scorned! :) > > Barry ################### From: "mike wilder" Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 19:54:52 -0000 Subject: "private presses" hello barry and group, so, the flames have come. what you say is fair enough barry, Except that many issues of the cpn are out of print. i think that if i were offering to sell (copies of) any color issue of the cpn for a substantial discount over the back issue price, that would be truly reprehensible and actually threaten the icps. however, given that many of the issues are not available from the icps (including several from the 90's!), i don't think that offering to trade a photocopy for a photocopy of (the entirely out of print) ipsg journals has any real effect on the icps. i tried to buy back issues of the ipsgn but that isn't possible; i'm assuming that whoever could trade with me is in the same boat vis a vis the cpn. i also think that if something is truly out of print, one is entitled to photocopy it in order to have access to the info. i believe this is especially true of the cpn, since very few libraries carry it. in sum--i encourage everyone to buy back issues from the icps, but if they aren't available, i say it's okay to copy if you need the info.--mike _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 15:37:44 EST Subject: Re: "private presses" Mike, Which issues of CPN are out of print? Volumes 1-6 are black/white photocopies, but that is as dire as it gets. All look to be available from the ICPS Membership Form, including the first six. If you encourage everyone to buy from the ICPS what they can't get anywhere else, then they can buy all issues from the ICPS that have ever existed. There is no need to photocopy any of them. BTW, forgive me, but what is the "ipsg?" Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: RonsNewID@aol.com Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 15:38:09 EST Subject: Re: Drosophyllum >>>I mentioned this to Peter D'Amato and he said he had >similar >>>experience and >> >> >>>to not let it flower its first year. >> >> >>Although I, like many of you, admire Peter greatly, >the plant did not >>die because it flowered in the first year. It died >because of its >>growing conditions. I've had D. live 3 years and then die >because I >>let it get too dry. It flowered faithfully each summer. I still >>>have the seed and will try again. >> >>I grew mine in 10% peat and 90% sand and watered when >the soil became >>almost completely dry. At times, the plant would wilt >because I >>didn't pay enough attention to watering it. It recovered each time -- >>>except the last time when I was gone for 4 days and wasn't around to >>>notice that it went dry. >> >Interestingly plants in the wild will often apparently >die off >completely during the dry season but return to growth >once the rains >return. The key to growing this species seems to be to >use a large >enough pot so fluctuations in soil moisture during the >dry season are >minimised. > It may be that I didn't give the plant enough water. This was my first attempt with this plant. It grew in an 8" clay pot filled with equal parts perlite, sand, lava rock, and vermiculite. I gave it a watering schedule of 1/2 pint of water twice a week. This wasn't enough to drain out the bottom of the pot but I felt this was ok since the plant is supposed to be kept on the dry side, and having it drain would make the soil very wet. The bad thing about the schedule was that while it was constant, the weather wasn't - it got increasingly warm through March, April and May. However, as the plant was declining in apparent health (although the flowers looked great), it didn't show noticable improvement after it was watered, as some plants in need of water do. The reason I mentioned Peter's experience was that while mine was limited to one dead plant, he said that his was with 2 groups of plants in their first year. One of which was left to flower and the other wasn't. Ron Sbragia ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:06:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: re: Copying back issues of CPN > I absolutely do not wish to unleash "Hell hath no fury", and, I am > certain that I am poorly informed, but I wonder if ICPS has considered > an Internet subscription service for CPN? Hey Robert, An internet subscription is an interesting idea, but I don't know of anyone on the ICPS board or volunteers who are thinking about taking on this kind of project yet. Somewhat allied with this is our back-issue situation. Although I have long been a big fan of keeping back issues in storage, the cost for doing this is so great that it is barely a break-even prospect for us, while it *does* cost a lot in volunteer effort. So I've been looking more and more closely at the prospect of producing our backs in CD ROM format. This would be much cheaper for us to do, I think. It would also cost less in shipping and storage, and could be very searchable. Furthermore, we are actually running out of some of our back issues. What will we do with the ones we still have, if we move to CD ROM? Compost them, probably! I'm taking off for a week, so don't expect another comment from me on this for a bit. Later! Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "mp" Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:47:10 -0500 Subject: Utricularia article in Science News Science News weekly magazine, vol. 159 for February 3, 2001 contains an brief article on bladderworts on page 69. The article mentions the work of Jennifer H. Richards of Florida International University in Miami. She proposes that there must be some sort of symbiotic relationship between the plant and microbes (e.g. photosynthetic algae, rotifers) in the traps. While the plant may benefit from the presence of these microbes, it is not clear how the microbes would benefit from living inside the bladders. After examining the contents of 1,400 bladders under the microscope, she discovered that insect larvae and other larger creatures were found in only 6% of the bladders. She says that although the bladders do absorb nutrients from prey, it is unlikely that the rare prey could make up for the amoung of resource the plant dedicates to producing the bladders. She calculates that, on average, one quarter of the plant biomass is dedicated to bladders. Her paper appears in the January issue of the American Journal of Botany. Also mentioned in this article is the work of Thomas Miller of Florida State University in Tallahassee. He did research on Sarracenia purpurea. He notes that this plant does not secrete any flesh-eating enzymes within the trap, and in fact several insect larvae survive only inside the pitchers. The plant seems to absorb nutrients shed by the larvae. Perry Malouf [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Bruce Salmon" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:38:22 +1300 Subject: U. longifolia (Sierra Araponga) I too have a plant of the white flowered U. longifolia from Sierra Araponga. I planted the seed about a year ago in spag among my D. prolifera in my heated greenhouse (min 20C). About 4 months later I noticed a few very slender leaves emerging from the pot. These were dug out, potted up and put in mu cool greenhouse for the summer. Now there are at least 10 leaves about 20cm long. U. longifolia seems to grow to full size very quickly. Bruce ################### From: "Bruce Salmon" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:03:19 +1300 Subject: Flaming Drosophyllum Here are a few experiences I've had with drosophyllum... in my unheated Glasshouse in Auckland NZ. I grew my first plant from seed in a small pot in Autumn. When it was about 5cm high I tipped it out of the pot and removed most of the mix from the roots. A taproot descends from the plant about 6cm or so and then lateral roots form. I potted the plant in a mix of 80/20 pummice sand/peat in a 10L bucket sized pot. The top 2cm was a layer of fine and coarse pummice. The seedling survived this proceedure and rapidly grew to about 40cm across by the time early summer arrived. It was stood in a shallow tray of water all winter. During mid summer it flowered profusely and then growth slowed dramatically although it was beginning to sprout from almost every node. At this stage I was only watering it from the top just as the leaves began to wilt. A few months later it died. Luckily I had collected the seed. I tossed the pot under the bench. The following spring I had grown more from seed and ressurected the old pot by cutting off the old stem and planting 2 seedlings in the pot. After a while another shoot arose from under the surface (the previous plant had come back from the dead)!!! - that's after about 8 months of being bone dry. I left all 3 in the pot although each only grew to about 20cm across. After they flowered and I collected the seed I decided to clean up the ring of dead leaves by the only means I know how. Thats right the pyromaniac voices in my head told me to set fire to them! It was quite an intense conflagration and the label went all twisty. Now I'm looking at 3 black stumps (1 has a green shoot still). It'll be interesting to see what happens from here. I've used the fire method before to clean up D. capensis. It worked well with the plants becoming healthier and sprouting more too. Bruce ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 03:23:48 EST Subject: Re: Drosophyllum Hi All, I was cleaning an area where I had some of my potting materials and I found what looks to be a ICPS seedpack of Drosophyllum. It has to be a few years old, at least. Does anyone know how long the viability is on those? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 04:08:38 EST Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN Hi Mike and everyone else, consider this a flame and a threat of legal action. You may not copy any copywrited material published by the ICPS ( in or out of print ). Period, full stop, end of question. Doing so, in violation of express copywrite restrictions in the United States and other signatory counties means you subject yourself to legal action by this organization. We will not condone or allow any copying of our publications, without express written permission of the board of officers of the ICPS. No such permissions have been granted. You may view CPN at any number of libraries in the U.S. and other countries. You may order copies of back issues of the ICPS from the address below. While some are currently not available, they are still protected by copywrite and may be reprinted in some form or other in the near future. David O. Gray President, International Carnivorous Plant Society 3310 East Yorba Linda Blvd. # 330 Fullerton, CA 92831-1790 U.S.A. ################### From: Francesc Maynou Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 13:01:04 +0100 Subject: Looking for Nepenthes seed source Dear list members, I am looking for a reputable Nepenthes seed source. I have searched the web but did not find many choices. In the past I bought from B&T seeds but did not have much success. Could anyone recommend a commercial source for Nepenthes seed (besides the ICPS seed bank)? By the way, is this the best time of the year to purchase and sow seeds? Thank you Francesc Maynou in warm, sunny Barcelona ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:09:00 +0000 Subject: A & D etc. (long!) Dear Fernando & al., > The pitcher seems to be a simple folding of the leaf Not always (v.i.). While the morphological transformations (from a simple leaf to a carnivorous pitcher) can be quite complex, the physiological principle (secrete enzymes, wait, take up) is in fact simple in comparison with snap traps. > shown by the mid-rib "scar" (although I think maybe Cephalotus > might be of peltate origin, an invagination instead of folding... > Jan help me here!). OK (you wanted it!). All listeners not interested in details can skip the rest of this message. The morphological nature of the pitchers of all three pitcher plant families (Nepenthaceae, Cephalotaceae, and Sarraceniaceae; _Brocchinia_ and other cases not discussed here) is in fact fundamentally different. But let me first sketch the traditional morphological interpretation of peltate leaves (leaves with the stalk attached some distance from the leaf margin, usually on the lower leaf surface), so a few more listeners will understand what I am going to talk about (all botanists can skip this or comment it where I am wrong). A normal leaf (the ancestor model) is a flattened structure attached at the side of a shoot (the axis). It has two faces (surfaces) and is therefore called a "bifacial" leaf. The face that originally points into the same direction as the tip (apex) of the axis (i.e. usually the upper surface) is called the adaxial surface. The other surface is called abaxial (similar but different!). Both surfaces are externally separated from each other by the leaf margin. While the vessels in the axis are usually concentric in cross-section (xylem elements are located closer to the centre of the axis than phloem elements), in the normal leaf this orientation is conserved but because the leaf represents only a lateral outgrowth of a segment of the axis, only the part of the vessels close to the point of attachment of the leaf branches to form the vessels (veins) of the leaf. The vessels of the midrib of a normal leaf have their xylem thus oriented towards the adaxial surface and their phloem towards the abaxial surface. The vessels branch only laterally (the normal leaf is flat!), and the bifacial nature of the leaf is thus mirrored in the bifacial orientation of the leaf vessels. The leaf vessels ultimately terminate in the leaf tip (apex). A normal leaf stalk (petiole) is a narrowed, elongated basal portion of a leaf, and the vessels show the above mentioned bifacial orientation even though the petiole may be perfectly round externally (in these cases the margins can become entirely obscure). In a normal leaf, the petiole is always attached to the very base of the expanded, flattened part of the leaf (lamina), and the two leaf margins form (at least theoretically) continuous lines beginning at either side of the leaf base, running along the two lateral limits of the petiole, circumscribing the lamina, and terminating in the apex, where they meet. What happens in the peltate leaf? Just consider the consequences if the leaf margins decide to meet earlier, e.g. already at the base of the leaf, on the adaxial surface of the originally bifacial petiole: because they circumscribe/define the two leaf surfaces, the whole surface of the petiole above the point of margin coalescence (called a transversal zone, v.i.) becomes abaxial, and only a small portion at the leaf base remains adaxial. Because the petiole now has only one (abaxial) surface, it is called unifacial. True peltate leaves always have unifacial petioles. Because the orientation of the vessels follows the surfaces, they form a concentric ring (with phloem elements pointing outwards) in the unifacial part of the petiole (while usually a bifacial orientation of the vessels can still be observed at the base of even perfectly peltate leaves!). At the apical end of the petiole, the margins reappear at a point called the transversal zone. This is a part of tissue that may be rised adaxially above the plane of the petiole. From this point the two margins first spread laterally to turn upwards (considering the leaf apex as the top end of the leaf) and to finally meet again at the leaf apex. The lamina surface pointing towards the petiole is abaxial, and the surface pointing away from it is adaxial. In the lamina, the vessels usually assume their bifacial orientation (in relation to the two surfaces) again. The degree of peltation (i.e. the relative distance of petiole insertion from the margin) depends on the expansion of the transversal zone. The only carnivorous pitcher derived from a true peltate leaf is that of _Cephalotus_. The pitcher leaf of _Cephalotus_ does indeed have a long, unifacial petiole. Interestingly, the pitcher cavity is formed mainly from the transversal zone, the pitcher lid is the apical portion of the lamina, and the lamina margin forms both the peristome and the lid margin. The wings are outgrowths of the abaxial leaf surface. The inner pitcher and lid surfaces are adaxial. The pitchers of Sarraceniaceae do have a peltate or nearly peltate portion only at their very base. In _Sarracenia_ the transversal zone at the basal, adaxial end of the leaf can be discerned as a small cap sheating the axis. Above this cap, a short (a few mm long) unifacial portion that represents the extremely reduced petiole separates the leaf base from the lamina. The lamina is bifacial again. A minute transversal zone at its base is almost indiscernible. The main pitcher portion results from lateral fusion of the lamina margins, i.e. *not* from peltation. The wing (two wings in _Heliamphora_) is the fusion product of both margins. The inner pitcher surface (plus the inner wing surfaces) are adaxial, the outer surfaces are all abaxial. The lid is the leaf apex, the wing margin(s), peristome and lid margins are the margins of the lamina. In effect, the transversal zones in Sarraceniaceae neutralize each other, and the pitcher is formed principally from a bifacial precursor, approaching what you (Fernando) called "simple leaf folding". _Nepenthes_ has the most complex organs among the pitchers because it has in fact three distinct surfaces. It does not originate from true peltation (although the leaf base is sometimes apparently peltate): the petiole (in this case a tendril) is bifacial! The pitcher is therefore not peltate (which would require that the entire external pitcher surface is abaxial) but the ventral portion between the wings (that correspond to the leaf margins) is adaxial, while the larger (dorsal) portion of the external pitcher surface is abaxial. The spur between lid and pitcher is the true leaf apex. The upper lid surface is continuous with the ventral pitcher surface (as seen in early stages of pitcher development), and is therefore a detached part of the adaxial surface of the lamina. The peristome, the interior pitcher surface, and the lower lid surface all originate from "within" the bifacial leaf, and cannot easily be assigned to either leaf surface. This is the "third" surface (neither adaxial nor abaxial). > Folding of leaves into tubular formats does not appear to me to > be nearly as specialized as the A&D leaf morphology. The morphology itself e.g. of a _Nepenthes_ pitcher is far more complex and specialized than in the _Dionaea_ trap. The moving tissues, electrical signal transduction, and perception of tactile stimuli are also present in the _Drosera_ trap, the difference is just a gradual one. > So because it is less "difficult" to evolve is probably why we see 3 > possible evolutionary origins for pitcher traps (Nepenthaceae, > Sarraceniaceae, and Cephalotaceae) and so many sticky traps with > at least a few evolutionary origins. Well, there are also two mutually independent evolutionary origins of moving traps (in Droseraceae and Lentibulariaceae), interestingly all from *within* families that contain genera applying passive trapping devices. >> About Aldrovanda, it is clearly related to Drosera, but it is >> completely different morphologically; and this is obvious if you >> admit the very ancient origin of this genus. > If I remember well, detailed morphological studies of the > traps showed instead that they were in fact very similar. Just because one > is aquatic and the other terrestrial does not make them completely > different. The mechanism of movement seems to be fundamentally different in A & D. While _Aldrovanda_ apparently applies a fairly simple turgor mechanism, the (still not entirely understood) mechanism of the _Dionaea_ trap relies at least in part on growth. > Look at Utrics! We've got aquatic, terrestrials, affixed aquatics, > epiphytic, tuberous, rheophytic -- a vast variety of adaptations in a > single genus! And much more recent too, evolution-wise. This is the reason why all _Utricularia_ traps are so similar in all fundamental morphological respects. >> So the most logical order is Sundew-Dionaea-Aldrovanda. (...) > Evolution goes both ways. All ways. Right. Therefore in the unrooted "tree" above, the logical or rather phylogenetic order could (by reduction) equally well have been _Aldrovanda_-_Dionaea_-_Drosera_. If we consider that e.g. _Nepenthes_ holds a systematic position *between* _Drosophyllum_ and Droseraceae, the ancestral Droseraceae trap does not necessarily need to have been of the adhesive type! Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:36:07 -0500 Subject: RE: Drosophyllum > Does anyone know how long the viability is on those? Drosophyllum seed maintain their viability for a long time. I've germinated seed that has been several years old so give it a try. Keep the medium very wet or even soak the seed for 24 hours in water to get a jump start. David Atlanta ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:47:11 -0500 Subject: RE: Photocopies of CPN Hi Mike and everyone else, >consider this a flame and a threat of legal action. You may not copy any >copywrited material published by the ICPS ( in or out of print ). Period, >full stop, end of question. David, please check with your legal counsel. It is permitted to copy portions of articles. It is not permitted as you stated to copy an entire article without written permission. I work for a government agency that has a copying service for scientific articles. I use it constantly without any fear of being sued so I think the law probably has some loop holes. My guess is that if an article is being used by the copier for educational purposes then copying the entire article is permitted as opposed to someone copying an article for resale to make money. I would hope, though, that ICPS would take a gentler approach with people copying articles from past journals when the purpose is to educate themselves. We've already heard that ICPS doesn't really make any (or much) money from request for old material so I don't understand the stern remarks made here, especially if the purpose is to educate oneself about cp's. To take a stance that ICPS would sue someone for copying an article for educational purposes is truly distasteful and I hope that you reconsider your remarks. David Atlanta ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 11:40:09 EST Subject: P. gigantea Hi All I have had a P. gigantea for about a year, that does not seem to do a lot. It does not thrive like some of the other Mexican Pings. Is there any differences in growing conditions that people are using with success for this species that is radically different than standard Mexican Ping culture? BTW, I use Peter's recommended mix of equal parts peat/perlite/vermiculite/sand ("The Savage Garden"). Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Robert Ziemer Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 09:36:31 -0800 Subject: re: Richards Utricularia article Thanks for the heads-up, Perry. The article by Jennifer H. Richards that appeared in the January issue of American Journal of Botany 88:170-176 can be downloaded in PDF format from http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/reprint/88/1/170.pdf or in HTML format from http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/88/1/170 Perry Malouf wrote: > Science News weekly magazine, vol. 159 for February 3, 2001 > contains an brief article on bladderworts on page 69. The article > mentions the work of Jennifer H. Richards of Florida International > University in Miami. She proposes that there must be some sort of > symbiotic relationship between the plant and microbes (e.g. > photosynthetic algae, rotifers) in the traps. .... Her paper appears > in the January issue of the American Journal of Botany. ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:10:45 +0000 Subject: Drosera Snap Traps? Ok, so sundews are hardly the speediest of trappers when furling their leaves around prey, but has anyone experimented to find out how many glands must get excited before furling starts? Have Droseras developed a redundancy mechanism like Dionaeas? NigelH ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:18:12 +0000 Subject: Re: Drosophyllum Joe, > > I was cleaning an area where I had some of my potting materials >and I found what looks to be a ICPS seedpack of Drosophyllum. It >has to be a few years old, at least. Does anyone know how long the >viability is on those? > Last year I germinated Drosophyllum seed that was at least three years old. The seed case is very tough making this seed quite long lived. Make sure you scratch or chip the seed in some way before sowing as this makes germination take place considerably (i.e. months!) quicker. I rub the seed in some sandpaper until the surface is well scratched but I have heard slicing a section off one end works as well. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:30:38 +0000 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN Am I the only person to consider this just a little bit of an overreaction? Usually the only people to benefit from such action are the lawyers anyway. :-) > >Doing so, in violation of express copywrite restrictions in the United States >and other signatory counties means you subject yourself to legal action by >this organization. We will not condone or allow any copying of our >publications, without express written permission of the board of officers of >the ICPS. No such permissions have been granted. You may view CPN at any >number of libraries in the U.S. and other countries. You may order copies of >back issues of the ICPS from the address below. While some are currently not >available, they are still protected by copywrite and may be reprinted in some >form or other in the near future. > >David O. Gray >President, International Carnivorous Plant Society >3310 East Yorba Linda Blvd. # 330 >Fullerton, CA 92831-1790 >U.S.A. Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Biodan@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:18:38 EST Subject: Re: Darlingtonia Thanks Mike and Susan! Now I only hope to inspire a few young minds (and maybe some old one's too!) [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:18:44 -0600 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN Am I the only person to consider this just a little bit of an overreaction? "Tacky" comes to mind. Wayne ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:28:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN Dear Phil, Wayne and David, Please keep in mind that it is David's job to ensure the integrity of the CPN and any other materials published by ICPS. The idea is that permission is granted before copies are made. The Copier should indeed seek permission from the correct ICPS officials. What he (the Copier) has to do (like pay dollars, maybe) for permission is what we ought to be debating. ICPS members should be interested in unauthorized copying for trading purposes. I agree that when a copyrighted publication is no longer in print or otherwise available from the publisher, the making of copies should be allowed. However, the only legal way is to get permission from the publisher, or use the educational loophole (which doesn't cover trading). Some publishers have a more lenient policy, others are more strict. I hope that there will be an easy and legal way to reprint books and magazines in the future. Something like a book store, but that can actually print the book for you when it's no longer in print... Dave Evans > Am I the only person to consider this just a little bit of an > overreaction? > > Usually the only people to benefit from such action are the lawyers > anyway. :-) > > Phil Wilson > --snip-- > > "Tacky" comes to mind. > Wayne > --snip-- > > > >Doing so, in violation of express copywriters restrictions in the United States > >and other signatory counties means you subject yourself to legal action by > >this organization. We will not condone or allow any copying of our > >publications, without express written permission of the board of officers of > >the ICPS. No such permissions have been granted. > > > >David O. Gray > >President, International Carnivorous Plant Society ################### From: "Rogan Roth" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:06:48 +0200 Subject: Copying CPN >>>consider this a flame and a threat of legal action. You may not copy >>>any copywrited material published by the ICPS ( in or out of print ). >>>Period, full stop, end of question. <<< Personally, if I received an unhelpful reply such as the one quoted above, I would copy the whole damn issue (in full colour) an then tell the organization to go jump in the lake - surely education and conservation is the ICPS's main reason for existing - not profit? Regards Rogan Roth. ################### From: Daniel Murphy Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:22:32 +1100 Subject: Re: A & D etc. Dear Jan, >_Nepenthes_ has the most complex organs among the pitchers because >it has in fact three distinct surfaces. It does not originate from >true peltation (although the leaf base is sometimes apparently >peltate): the petiole (in this case a tendril) is bifacial! If the tendril is the petiole of the leaf in _Nepenthes_ what is "leaf" that is basal to the tendril? Is it interpreted as also being part of the petiole (and the tendril is an extension of this)? Cheers, Dan Murphy ################### From: "Steve Alton" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:01:27 -0000 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN I agree with Phil. And wouldn't you look up how to spell 'copyright' before you went in with all guns blazing? It's seems an ironic response bearing in mind how much material (plant material, growing information, etc) is exchanged amongst the CP community through goodwill and a desire to 'spread the word'. Steve > > Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:30:38 +0000 > From: Phil Wilson > To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com > Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN > Message-ID: > > > Am I the only person to consider this just a little bit of an > overreaction? > > Usually the only people to benefit from such action are the lawyers > anyway. :-) > > > >Doing so, in violation of express copywrite restrictions in the United > >States and other signatory counties means you subject yourself to legal > >action by this organization. We will not condone or allow any copying of > >our publications, without express written permission of the board of > >officers of the ICPS. No such permissions have been granted. You may > >view CPN at any number of libraries in the U.S. and other countries. You > >may order copies of back issues of the ICPS from the address below. While > >some are currently not available, they are still protected by copywrite > >and may be reprinted in some form or other in the near future. > > > >David O. Gray > >President, International Carnivorous Plant Society > >3310 East Yorba Linda Blvd. # 330 > >Fullerton, CA 92831-1790 > >U.S.A. > MILLENNIUM SEED BANK Project Steve Alton B.Sc. Seed Donations Officer Seed Conservation Department Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew Wakehurst Place, Ardingly, Haywards Heath West Sussex RH17 6TN, UK Tel direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894119 Fax direct + 44 - (0)1444 - 894110 Email: s.alton@rbgkew.org.uk http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/seedbank/msb.html ################### From: bruce dudley Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 03:46:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: copyright laws serve a purpose Hi All! To David: I agree, but I don't consider your words 'threatening' or 'flaming'. I consider them to be informational and extremely well-timed. To everyone else: The first thing that came to mind when I read that people wanted to copy CPN material AND distribute it was: NO! Copyright infringement. It is imperative that everyone stop and READ the laws which govern our actions. David has a point that must be taken seriously and with conscience. Today, our children see so many UNETHICAL actions and it is the teachers who bear the brunt of these impropriaties. As a teacher I am NOT allowed to play c.d. music, internet music, or videos in my classroom. This violates copyright laws concerning "public" presentations. We suffer reprecussions from our school system when we are caught doing these things. We may not copy published work from ANYWHERE, including the internet! If we do, and distribute it to our classes, our school system will not support our violation of copyright laws if we have not first sought prior approval from the writer or publisher. It truly amazes me when educated and (usually) sane individuals get these grandious ideas in their heads, voice them to a population, and wonder why someone get's upset! Think, speak, act... bear the brunt of your actions. It is a natural outcome if you forget to think again before you act.... If people are copying material (burning cd's and photocopying.....) please keep this information to yourselves! Don't be stupid and open yourself up to a lawsuit that you will lose.... Please read about NAPSTER for the most current example of copyright infringement actions taken against someone who 'thought' he could do whatever he pleased with someone else's product. I would hope this person 'thinks' wiser next time.... If the publication does not allow photocopying, then it can not be done. Period. End of ethics lesson 101. BTW: For everyone who thought that David's reaction was distasteful, it is equally distasteful to challenge a very well-written and appropriate law. Maybe it is time to consider publication of CPN's on CD. It really wouldn't take much. Perhaps I could look into one of my classes do such a thing. The charges would include the price of the materials and any licenses I would need to buy. We could count it as one of our 'service-projects'... It wouldn't be an ongoing thing, either. Classes and students change. Therefore, it would be a pass-along project. Bruce Dudley > Hi Mike and everyone else, > consider this a flame and a threat of legal action. > You may not copy any > copywrited material published by the ICPS ( in or > out of print ). Period, > full stop, end of question. > > Doing so, in violation of express copywrite > restrictions in the United States > and other signatory counties means you subject > yourself to legal action by > this organization. We will not condone or allow any > copying of our > publications, without express written permission of > the board of officers of > the ICPS. No such permissions have been granted. > You may view CPN at any > number of libraries in the U.S. and other countries. > You may order copies of > back issues of the ICPS from the address below. > While some are currently not > available, they are still protected by copywrite and > may be reprinted in some > form or other in the near future. > > David O. Gray > President, International Carnivorous Plant Society > 3310 East Yorba Linda Blvd. # 330 > Fullerton, CA 92831-1790 > U.S.A. Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 13:13:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN I'd like to leap on this bandwagon too, but I think we need to decide a policy about when and where ICPS will enforce its copyright. How about a rule that the ICPS will enforce its legal rights over copyright material etc etc except 1) when a paid-up member requires, for personal use only, a copy of CPN which is no longer available through the ICPS 2) where written permission for a copy has been obtained from at least two elected officers (I envisage e-mails as satisfying this requirement) ? NigelH ################### From: "Jay Vannini" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:16:35 -0600 Subject: CITES and Nepenthes seed? An open question to the forum: I am curious to hear "expert" opinion regarding the legality of undocumented international mailing of CITES App. II seed. I am aware that there are certain exemptions (flasked orchids, etc.) to the permit process - is App. II seed (specifically from Nepenthes spp. or hybrids) also exempt? My re-reading of the Convention's clauses regarding "parts" has left me with a throbbing headache... Perhaps the seed bank folks can help me with this. Regards, Jay Vannini ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:05:37 -0500 Subject: RE: Photocopies of CPN > Please keep in mind that it is David's job to ensure the integrity of >the CPN and any other materials published by ICPS. The idea is that >permission is granted before copies are made. I'm sorry Dave but I still disagree. I copy articles from hundreds of scientific journals and never bother with getting permission. The owners of these journals don't threaten folks with legal actions. I don't think ICPS should either. David Atlanta ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:22:05 -0500 Subject: Nepenthes bicalcarata Hey there, ho there, I have a large, old bicalc that has been growing great forever....until recently. It is going down hill fast. The leaves, once green and glossy, are all turning red/brown along the edges, and the new growth is distorted. I have looked very closely for insects (because of the distorted new growth) both with a hand lens and a scope, and I am confident its not an insect problem. I have not changed anything in regard to the location, water, or temp. I have had this plant for quite awhile, and it has always thrived. I don't want to loose it. Any ideas? Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: "Malouf, Perry" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:52:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Nepenthes bicalcarata > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve LaWarre [SMTP:slawarre@meijergardens.org] > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:34 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list CP > Subject: Nepenthes bicalcarata > > I have a large, old bicalc that has been growing great forever....until > recently.....The leaves, once green and glossy, are all turning red/brown > along the edges, and the new growth is distorted. ... I am confident its > not an insect problem. I have not changed anything in regard to the > location, water, or temp. ..... Hi Steve, These symptoms sound like classic salt poisoning, also known as mineral buildup in the soil. What's the plant potted in? Sphagnum? How long ago was it last repotted? How do you know that the water has not changed? Do you check your water periodically? I had an RO unit that was giving me nothing better than tap water after a while, because I did not maintain it properly. Even if the water is fairly low in minerals, sphagnum will concentrate these minerals to levels that are toxic to the plant after a period of time. The length of time depends on how bad the water is, and your watering technique among other variables. Here's another sneaky cause of the symptoms you mention: styrofoam peanuts that are NOT white. I used to use non-white styrofoam peanuts in the bottom of my Nepenthes pots. The plants did great for months until the roots grew down into the peanuts. At that point the plants stopped growing, and then began to show the leaf discoloration and distorted growth that you described. White styrofoam peanuts are okay. I hope this helps. Regards, Perry Malouf ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:05:32 +0000 Subject: Re: CITES and Nepenthes seed? Jay, > >I am curious to hear "expert" opinion regarding the legality of undocumented >international mailing of CITES App. II seed. I am aware that there are >certain exemptions (flasked orchids, etc.) to the permit process - is App. >II seed (specifically from Nepenthes spp. or hybrids) also exempt? My >re-reading of the Convention's clauses regarding "parts" has left me with a >throbbing headache... > This is from the horses mouth so to speak.... A few months ago I emailed Ger Van Vliet from CITES on this issue. His reply was that there are no controls on the international trade in App II seed with the exception of Mexican Cacti seeds originating from Canada. Seeds from App I are restricted under the convention. If you want to see the original mail drop me a personal mail and I will forward a copy of his email. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:47:45 +0000 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN Dave and all, > > Please keep in mind that it is David's job to ensure the integrity of >the CPN and any other materials published by ICPS. The idea is that >permission is granted before copies are made. The Copier should indeed seek >permission from the correct ICPS officials. What he (the Copier) has to do >(like pay dollars, maybe) for permission is what we ought to be debating. >ICPS members should be interested in unauthorized copying for trading >purposes. > > I agree that when a copyrighted publication is no longer in print or >otherwise available from the publisher, the making of copies should be >allowed. However, the only legal way is to get permission from the >publisher, or use the educational loophole (which doesn't cover trading). >Some publishers have a more lenient policy, others are more strict. I hope >that there will be an easy and legal way to reprint books and magazines in >the future. Something like a book store, but that can actually print the >book for you when it's no longer in print... > I agree with what you say but... Photocopying a few CPNs to distribute among friends or to exchange for other materials is not in my opinion sufficient cause to start waving heavy handed legal threats. As a member of the ICPS I would be extremely uncomfortable with the society's funds being wasted in this way. There are after all, far better ways to spend money. I can also see things from the other viewpoint as well since I am editor of the UK carnivorous plant society journal. As with the CPN all our journal's material is copyrighted but I would never dream of using copyright laws unless there was a clear case of profiteering from copying our material. If for instance, one person was paying for a subscription and then copying our material for other individual on a regular basis we may consider action. Even so, I doubt that we would consider bring the long arm of the law into the equation. Apart from the cost I don't think it does the image of the society any credit. Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "mike wilder" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:32:26 -0000 Subject: cpn copying hello, well, as i have stirred up this mess, i guess i should make some final comments, which will actually address multiple people's postings. to david: gee whiz, do you really think that someone who gets a black and white copy of an article from 1979 is going to later decide NOT to purchase a complete cd-rom? whatever. the purpose of the icps is, in part, to disseminate info, and i stand by my original claim that an out of print issue or article is fair game (legal or not. ). you (and i once), were lucky to have access to the full set of cpn's at berkeley's library, but the fact is that the number of libraries in the world with such a set are very few in number, and also aren't going to send them out through interlibrary loan. as it happens, a kind person in australia is going to share his ipsg (to joe griffin: ipsg is the international ping study group. and, incidentally, many issues ARE out of print, but you'll only discover that AFTER ordering some volumes of the cpn. no disrespect to the volounteers, all of whom i appreciate-- but that's how it works.) journals without recompense, so you needn't worry about suing me to recover the no doubt huge sums of money the icps might have lost. finally david, i remember that a nice set of old sarracenia prints was auctioned off at the convention this summer--am i mistaken, or weren't those photocopies? i think that continuing this debate much further won't produce much profit for anyone, but, i suppose it's my mess and i'll stay with it if necessary. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:56:44 -0600 Subject: Spagnum... I'm starting back up pretty much from scratch into the CP world and as such have no live spagnum to speak of. I've got a bushel on order, but I don't think that'll go very far. I was wanting to use pure spagnum for my CPs - namely Dionaea and Sarr and some Darlings - 100% live would get very costly to ship. So I'm going to have to mix the media to make the live spagnum go as far as I can make it. How fast does this stuff spread - can I ever look forward to two pounds mixed with something else like dried peet spreading enough to be able to use in other pots? The last time I was doing this I had a few hap-hazard pots and milk jug bottoms that grew spagnum fine, but never overgrew. Now I've got some larger trays with a fledgling circulation system and hope to fill them up without going broke paying for shipping and whatnot. With the fact that live spagnum is the key ingredient in much of the compost we use to grow our plants, it's surprising there's not more information on the care and propogation of spagnum itself... Cheers, Mike ################### From: "Stefan Ploszak" Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:34:49 Subject: Re: photocopying >Hi Mike and everyone else, >consider this a flame and a threat of legal action. You may not copy any >copywrited material published by the ICPS ( in or out of print ). Period, >full stop, end of question. Are you suggesting that ICPS dollars will go toward sueing people that photocopy the CPN? Or, are you just flexing your presidential arm? Either way, I think your response is harsh (excessively harsh). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: john green Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:58:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN Nothing like a good flame war, huh? The whole thing brings back fond memories of the "Great Squirrel War of '00" and the "Finger Puppet War of '99," where an enterprising 12 year old girl was driven from the list. I haven't seen a single posting from her on this listserv since then, although I've noticed her name occasionally on the Garden Web section for CPs. Good riddance, I say! This is no place for a bunch of bratty kids! Seriously, before we drive anyone else away from the listserv, can we just let this drop? Don't violate copyright laws. If you do, keep it to yourself. And by all means, don't solicit it on the listserv. And if you don't like the way the ICPS is being run, volunteer to do it yourself next time (no, I'm not an ICPS officer - I don't have the time!). John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 "Can't we all just get along?" -- Rodney King ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:33:25 -0600 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN So, how do I cause U. longifolia to bloom? Wayne ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:51:17 -0000 Subject: Re: ICPS Reprints, over-reaction, etc. My own view on this stems from being an author. I have come accross teachers who believe it is perfectly acceptable to copy a single 1, 2 or 3 page section from one of my books, and distribute photocopies to a whole class for educational purposes. This is illegal and is a breach of my copyright. I wrote all of my books to eduacate people. Money was never a motive. But the small amount of money my books earned (and believe me, it was small) was a slight reward that went toward accounting for all my time and effort. Teachers, and others, who copy material are usually doing so to avoid purchasing what is available. If the material can be borrowed from a library or bought, then there is no excuse to justify copying. Certainly it is not a justification toi claim "education" as a motive. Does anyone honestly think that Scientific American, Nature, etc,. would take kindly to whole journals, etc, being reprinted? No. One can not allow a section to be reprinted as there is no valid way to disciminate between 1 page, 2 pages, 3 pages, etc. The law already defines the number of words that can be copied, even by hand, to be republished or distributed for profit. Legally, copying in order to exchange a copy for something else would count as copying "for profit". However, many publishers and authors do allow copies to be made within reason. This is done with their agreement according to a very simple process. In advance, one writes and asks permission to make the copy, explaining why it is needed, how many copies will be made and when, where and to whom they will be distributed. If the reasons are acceptable, permission may follow. However, it is not unreasonable to expect that attempting to make copies without permission will result in athreat of legal action and refusal to allow copies even if they are belatedly requested. In my opinion, the ICPS response was not an overreaction. It was simply a statement to give due warning that a breach of copyright had been suggested and that, were it to go ahead, ICPS would reserve the right to protect their asset. By stating this fact, and by explaining the copyright, no-one can proceed and claim ignorance. had the response been less direct, it could have been open to misinterpretation or even have inadvertently waived copyright. In addition, ICPS is likely to protect its copyright for nother reason. Authors who contribute may well maintain copyright of their contributions while allowing (obviously) ICPS to print the contributions. (As an author, I routinely apply copyright to all material I publsih, no matter where it is published.) If ICPS then ignores attempted breach of copyright of their journal, may contributors may reluctantly stop contributing and send their copyright material to others who will protect the asset more stringently. I am not suggesting nor implying that anyone intended, in this case, to breach copyright, make a profit from someone else's asset, or do anything else immoral, improper or illegal. But I take this opportunity to publicly applaud and support the response from ICPS on behalf of all those who contribute their time and effort to publishing original material. ICPS should and did act in the interests of its membership by protecting copyright of material it published. As someone else rightly said, there are a few exceptions that allow copies to be made (e.g. in the UK, a student can make a personal copy of material for study, but not to share with others or to republish in part or as a whole). But one has to sign a document to declare that the intention is legal and will not breach copyright. And in case it's still not clear, I'll repeat what I said the last time this subject arose. If anyone copies material that is copyright of someone else and does not have prior consent, and if such copies are not permitted by law, then the making of those copies is theft. The equivalent is that I enter their greenhouse and help myself to cuttings of their plants, without permission. It';s a funny thing - but many people think its OK to steal someone else's property (NAPSTER users, teachers who photocopy, PC users with unlicensed software, etc.), but those same people never seem to like it when I suggest I'd like to take something of theirs. And they always lock their doors when the leave their house. Fair? I don't think so! Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: JWi5770869@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:08:40 EST Subject: Darlingtonia In a message dated 08/02/01 04:22:46 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > Last year I germinated Drosophyllum seed that was at least three years > old. The seed case is very tough making this seed quite long lived. Make > sure you scratch or chip the seed in some way before sowing as this > makes germination take place considerably (i.e. months!) quicker. I rub > the seed in some sandpaper until the surface is well scratched but I > have heard slicing a section off one end works as well. > > Regards, > Phil Wilson > Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk > Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk > Phil and all, I've tried slicing the seed case a number of times and found that the seed doesn't germinate. Wether I sliced too much off or sliced something vital I don't know. I've found that the best way,like yourself, is to rub the seed coat with sandpaper and submerge in water for 24 hrs. One thread that seems to come thru in the latest discussion is the plant dies (or at least becomes weakened )after flowering. Have other listserve members found this to be the case? John "Spring is just around the corner" Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: JWi5770869@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:11:20 EST Subject: CPN on CD-Rom Dear All, Barry mentioned the possibility of putting the old issues onto CD-Rom. Wasn't there also a project to put the CP database on CD -Rom. Has this died a death or is it still ongoing? All the best John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: "J. Chris Coppick " Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:19:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN On Feb 8, at 15:33, Wayne Morrow mused about the following: > > > So, how do I cause U. longifolia to bloom? > Wayne > > -- End of excerpt from Wayne Morrow Have you tried threatening it with legal action? Chris ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:38:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN ROFL! Wayne "J. Chris Coppick" wrote: > > Have you tried threatening it with legal action? > > Chris ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 19:14:26 -0600 Subject: Re: ICPS Reprints, over-reaction, etc. Can we get back to U. longifolia? Wayne ################### From: "Doug Burdic" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:53:50 -0800 Subject: Re: Spagnum... Hi Mike and All, Regarding the cultivation of live Sphagnum, I'd recommend chopping up the live stuff in to 1/2 " pieces and then pressing it down into pots filled with 'wet' peat moss, with the soil level being about 3" from the top of the pot. This will give it plenty of room to grow as well as help maintain a more humid environment. It spreads very quickly in the spring and summer if it is kept fairly cool and protected from the wind. I've grown Sphagnum in almost every imaginable container from a granite indian grinding bowl, to those terra cota clay strawberry pots you see at chain stores in the spring. Those plastic blue 'toddler wading pools' they sell in the spring also make for good Sphagnum cultivation if you fill it up with wet peat moss/perlite & then wrap wire covered with 4 or 6 mil poly around it after you've pressed your pieces of live sphagnum into the surface layer. (In fact, what I just described makes an excellent and "cheap" CP greenhouse for those with understanding wives & neighbors.) Might want to drill a few holes at the very bottom of these plastic pools (and have a 3" layer of rock at the bottom) so they can drain and be flushed out periodically. Once it gets established, this stuff pretty much takes care of itself as long as you remember the cardinal rule of pouring fresh water through it on especially during the hot summer months. This is what works for me anyway. Hope this helps out and good luck. Kind Regards, Doug Florence,Oregon dburdic@harborside.com ================================= On Thursday, February 08, 2001 1:57 PM "Michael Vanecek" wrote: > I'm starting back up pretty much from scratch into the CP world and as > such have no live spagnum to speak of. I've got a bushel on order, but I > don't think that'll go very far. I was wanting to use pure spagnum for > my CPs - namely Dionaea and Sarr and some Darlings - 100% live would get > very costly to ship. So I'm going to have to mix the media to make the > live spagnum go as far as I can make it. How fast does this stuff spread > - can I ever look forward to two pounds mixed with something else like > dried peet spreading enough to be able to use in other pots? The last > time I was doing this I had a few hap-hazard pots and milk jug bottoms > that grew spagnum fine, but never overgrew. Now I've got some larger > trays with a fledgling circulation system and hope to fill them up > without going broke paying for shipping and whatnot. With the fact that > live spagnum is the key ingredient in much of the compost we use to grow > our plants, it's surprising there's not more information on the care and > propogation of spagnum itself... > > Cheers, > Mike ################### From: Sunpitcher@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:41:20 EST Subject: N. veitchii My N. veitchii is totally ugly and long stemmed after blooming last fall. I want to cut it but as it is my only one do not wish to lose it. It has only one leader and I usually don't cut unless a plant has two. How hard are they to root? Angie Hall (formally Nichols) South Carolina ################### From: Laurent Legendre Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:09:25 +1100 Subject: Re: P. gigantea Dear Joe, P. gigantea is not really that different from commonly cultivated Mexican Pinguicula in its growing requirements, I think, and as already stated on this list recently, its growing requirements are very similar to P. agnata. One thing is that it requires more air humidity than any other Mexican Pinguicula because it has glands on both sides of its leaves and thus dehygrates faster when the air is dryer. But even P. agnata will do better with higher humidity in the air. But be careful, higher humidity in the air does not mean more water in the soil. This species also stands high summer temperatures. I see nothing wrong with your potting mix. I personally add some choalk to mine (5%) to keep in check a pathogenic fungus called Pythium which eats up the center of the rosette mostly in early spring and to which Mexican Pinguicula seem sensitive. Keep on trying, it is a nice plant, Laurent Legendre ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:34:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Spagnum... If you had a mess of live spagnum, would you still use dead spagnum as an under-layer? Some spagnum grows in cedar forests - what mileage have you guys had with using dead cedar or pine needles as an under-layer? Can the spagnum survive and flourish sans an under-layer altogether? All this is assuming all other things are equal like light, rain-water, temperature, etc... For reference - My little bog is in a West facing window over which an awning hangs, so it only gets a couple or three hours of direct sunlight a day, with the rest of the day bright and indirect. Since it's inside, it's also air-conditioned. I plan on circulating rain-water through the compost either continuously or periodically - experimentation is in order for the best pattern there. I also plan to experiment with periodically flooding and then draining the spagnum over periods lasting perhaps a few days each (I'll just rotate the alligator-clip that closes off the bottom drain amongst my containers). I've just spent some money that, well, leaves things tight here, so I want to make sure I get all the recommendations in to protect the investment and get things on the right foot. Those plants are expensive... Cheers, Mike Doug Burdic wrote: > > Hi Mike and All, > > Regarding the cultivation of live Sphagnum, I'd recommend chopping up the > live stuff in to 1/2 " pieces and then pressing it down into pots filled > with 'wet' peat moss, with the soil level being about 3" from the top of the > pot. This will give it plenty of room to grow as well as help maintain a > more humid environment. It spreads very quickly in the spring and summer if > it is kept fairly cool and protected from the wind. I've grown Sphagnum in > almost every imaginable container from a granite indian grinding bowl, to > those terra cota clay strawberry pots you see at chain stores in the spring. > Those plastic blue 'toddler wading pools' they sell in the spring also make > for good Sphagnum cultivation if you fill it up with wet peat moss/perlite & > then wrap wire covered with 4 or 6 mil poly around it after you've > pressed your pieces of live sphagnum into the surface layer. (In > fact, what I just described makes an excellent and "cheap" CP > greenhouse for those with understanding wives & neighbors.) > Might want to drill a few holes at the very bottom of these plastic > pools (and have a 3" layer of rock at the bottom) so they can drain > and be flushed out periodically. Once it gets established, this stuff pretty > much takes care of itself as long as you remember the cardinal rule of > pouring fresh water through it on especially during the hot summer months. > This is what works for me anyway. Hope this helps out and good luck. > > Kind Regards, > > Doug > > Florence,Oregon > dburdic@harborside.com ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:02:20 +0000 Subject: CPDBCDROM Dear John, > Wasn't there also a project to put the CP database on CD -Rom. > Has this died a death or is it still ongoing? The production of such a CD-Rom would probably not serve the purpose well. The database is updated periodically, and each CD version would be outdated within a few months. If you need the data for computer assisted applications, rather contact Rick or myself. We can probably find a better solution than burning CDs. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:41:26 +0000 Subject: Ed. comment: CPN photocopies Dear David, John et al., as irony of fate requires, my coEd Barry is absent just at the very moment this topic comes up. Anyway, since it concerns our job (NB: none of the editors nor any of the Board members of the ICPS is *paid* for what he/she is doing!), it might be appropriate to comment this debate a bit. First of all thanks, David, for safeguarding the interests of the ICPS and of CPN in a clear and easily comprehensible way. I had the privilege of personally meeting our President in San Francisco, and I trust he did not want to threaten anyone by unjustified legal action. What he expressed is just an appropriate description of the law "as is". > Seriously, before we drive anyone else away from the listserv, can we just > let this drop? Don't violate copyright laws. If you do, keep it to > yourself. And by all means, don't solicit it on the listserv. And if you > don't like the way the ICPS is being run, volunteer to do it yourself next > time Hooray! Thanks, John. If you (anyone) have further questions regarding CPN (require a permit?), why not ask an editor (or both)! I am quite confident it would give everyone a better feeling if he/she knew that what he/she is doing is legal. If a given CPN issue of interest is still available from the ICPS (again, an editor could help to find this out), buy it. It is IMO not expensive (just compare it with any similar publication), it is perfectly legal, and you get the real thing, not just a lousy photocopy (at least after vol.5). > "Can't we all just get along?" -- Rodney King Let's try! Kind regards Jan Dr. Jan Schlauer Carnivorous Plant Newsletter, Coeditor ICPS, International Cultivar Registrar jan@carnivorousplants.org ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:43:10 +0000 Subject: tendril morphology Dear Dan, > >_Nepenthes_ has the most complex organs among the pitchers because > >it has in fact three distinct surfaces. It does not originate from > >true peltation (although the leaf base is sometimes apparently > >peltate): the petiole (in this case a tendril) is bifacial! > > If the tendril is the petiole of the leaf in _Nepenthes_ what is "leaf" > that is basal to the tendril? Is it interpreted as also being part of the > petiole (and the tendril is an extension of this)? I have forgotten to mention (but the message was very long already!) that this is one of several discussed interpretations of the _Nepenthes_ tendril. It is the interpretation I (and several others) tend to adopt. The leafy portion at the base of the tendril is under these circumstances regarded as the expanded leaf base, or (in order to homologize it to organs of related plants) as +/- fused stipules. The leaf base is indeed a part of the petiole. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:38:14 CST6CDT Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN I want to express my support for David Gray... perhaps his response was strongly worded and offended some people, but he IS stating the law, and he IS trying to protect the ICPS. He has worked VERY hard for the ICPS thus far (anyone at the conference last year knows how much work he did to put that conference on, and very much appreciates his effort!) And as John Green so aptly pointed out, very few people are WILLING to give their time and energy to run for office and to volunteer for ICPS. So, let's just remember that we all have offended someone at some time or another, and let's move on and try to get along! Susan Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:08:28 -0500 Subject: bicalc follow-up Hey there, ho there, I have a large, old bicalc that has been growing great forever....until recently. It is going down hill fast. The leaves, once green and glossy, are all turning red/brown along the edges, and the new growth is distorted. I have looked very closely for insects (because of the distorted new growth) both with a hand lens and a scope, and I am confident its not an insect problem. I have not changed anything in regard to the location, water, or temp. I have had this plant for quite awhile, and it has always thrived. I don't want to loose it. Any ideas? ------------------------------------- Well, I had a few Good suggestions. I am a stickler about checking my water alkalinity and soil EC, so I don't think salts are the problem, I do like to let my Nepenthes dry just slightly (not too dry) between good heavy waterings, I have quite a few Nepenthes and they grow very well, I have found what works for me. I think the media is breaking down to much, and this plant needs to be repotted. This is also what was suggested by several respondents, and it makes sense. It is a little frustrating because this is my biggest bicalc, and I LOVE IT. It is old and wise. I worry a little about repotting because it does not have any basal rosettes, it has only one fat woody vine. I am going to do it...today I repot. (sigh...) Thanks again to all who responded. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:37:14 -0500 Subject: Copyrights, Napster, etc Did y'all think I could resist contributing to this? :) John Green - why did you have to mention the Finger Puppet War again? Anyway, here are my thoughts on this matter. The owner of the copyright is the only person or entity who should be able to give permission to others to copy their material, period. I'm going to skip the whole CPN issue and jump straight for NAPSTER and similar sites sites. Why? Because they were mentioned here and I am sure that many of you younger CPers out there illegally copy music. Here's the bottom line: Musicians often depend on money from sales of their music in order to survive. It's a job for them, not just a hobby. They have to generate income to pay their bills. By copying their music illegally (downloading from NAPSTER, copying a CD from a friend, etc), you are preventing them from making a living. How would you like it if someone came by on payday and snatched your check? What would you do? Well, for musicians, if they can't make enough money from their music, they've got to quit doing music professionally and find another job. End result - less good music out there for you to listen to. Same thing applies to books or any other medium which can be copied. Just some thoughts on copyright LAW, which I think the government should try to enforce a little better. sundewmatt ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:04:34 +0000 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN David's statement is understandable since, as an ICPS officer and in the absence of instructions to the contrary, he must protect the interests of the ICPS. However, we ARE the ICPS, and if we don't want the ICPS to act in a certain way, it is up to us to propose how it should act and get a democratic vote on it. I've encountered the rules about copyright and photocopying a few pages of a book or scientific article for personal use - indeed the British Library operate a service for just such an eventuality, and my local library incorporates a photocopier in it's reference department. NigelH ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:03:16 -0500 Subject: RE: Copyrights, Napster, etc Does any one else see the information starting to recycle here? Opinions have been stated...very logically in most cases. makes sense......lets move on. Back to the CPs for cryin' out loud. Time to settle down and lick off a little pitcher nectar! Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:41:33 EST Subject: Re: N. veitchii The only veitchii forms I have cut and rooted are the higland forms.....the parent plant usually buds in one or two locations within a few days to a few weeks...growth process is slow since the plant is usually a slow grower anyway...I have near a 100% success rate with cuttings of this species.....the leaves and stems being rather thick and covered in hairs apparantly aid in keeping the cuttings from detiorating for an extended amount of time, which allows the cutting to establish itself......they are slow growing, but otherwise easy....i root mine in long fiber sphagnum, placing 3 cuttings per 10" pot covered in a plastic bag...the plant cuttings can be rather stout and succulent, so this is the minimum amount of pot space 3 cuttings could fit in....i usually place them in my orchidarium for rooting, and put them back out into the highland house when they are established.... Michael Catalani ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:42:22 -0600 Subject: Re: Copyrights, Napster, etc I'm sorry - I didn't realize that this was a copy-rights listserv. Could someone kindly point me to the CP listserv? Mike ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:24:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Copyrights, Napster, etc ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 9:40 AM Well, for musicians, if they can't make enough money from their music, they've got to quit doing music professionally and find another job. End result - less good music out there for you to listen to. ......... this must of already happened. ~Mike St. Petersburg Florida USA ################### From: Richard Ellis Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:38:07 -0700 Subject: Nepenthes bicalcarata I have a large, old bicalc that has been growing great forever....until > recently.....The leaves, once green and glossy, are all turning red/brown > along the edges, and the new growth is distorted. ... I am confident its > not an insect problem. I have not changed anything in regard to the > location, water, or temp. ..... I would echo what Perry said. Since you see no problem with bugs on the leaves and your environment has not changed I would suspect something is going on below the soil. It is always frightening to take an ailing plant and disturb its root system but sometimes it just has to be done. If the plant is not too far gone to take some cuttings you might want to do that soon. Good luck, Rich ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:17:54 -0800 Subject: Re: Trap Developement >>The morphological nature of the pitchers of all three pitcher plant families (Nepenthaceae, Cephalotaceae, and Sarraceniaceae; _Brocchinia_ and other cases not discussed here) is in fact fundamentally different. Jan Hi Jan and all, Thankyou Jan for your thesis on pitcher development. I wish you could have added sketches to make it all more clear. I can understand how the trap in Sarracenia originally developed, this seems quite simple. Cephalotus is more complex and I'm not sure I understand this, but I think I can see how this may have evolved. The Nepenthes trap evolution was a real puzzler to me until just recently David O. Gray told me of his theory. I feel sure he has figured it out. YOU-WHOO, David! Please write about it for the rest of the Digesters. >>The mechanism of movement seems to be fundamentally different in A & D. While _Aldrovanda_ apparently applies a fairly simple turgor mechanism, the (still not entirely understood) mechanism of the _Dionaea_ trap relies at least in part on growth. Jan I have been growing Aldrovanda and Dionaea and comparing the trap closure. In Aldrovanda there is a primary snapping closure followed by a slower secondary sealing, as also seen in Dionaea. I think the primary snapping closure of Aldrovanda only appears different in motion because of folding action, but I do not believe the mechanics behind the closure is fundamentally different. This is but another feature (such as style movement) not discernable in herbarium material:-) Ivan Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:45:02 -0800 Subject: Re : Drosera Snap Traps? from CP Digest 2456: >>Ok, so sundews are hardly the speediest of trappers when furling their leaves around prey, but has anyone experimented to find out how many glands must get excited before furling starts? Have Droseras developed a redundancy mechanism like Dionaeas? NigelH Hi Nigel and all, Brilliant Nigel! I see what you mean! In Dionaea, one trigger hair must be stimulated twice, or two hairs must be touched in quick succession in order for the trap to close. This is to prevent a trap from closing unneccessarily and waste energy on some inert object. I can see how the redundancy measures of the sundew could have evolved into that of the flytrap. Laurent Lagendre gave a most excellent presentation on flytrap versus sundew trap workings at the CP World Conference 2000, but I do not recall him bringing this particular item up. After writing the above I did some experimenting on my Drosera burmannii. You probably already know that several tickles to the tentacle starts the movement. But I think I have just discovered something new as well. I tapped on only the tentacle stalk and nothing happens. Later, I tapped on the gland at the tentacle's end and this starts the tentacles movement. This made me realize something. Microscopic examination of Dionaea's trigger hairs reveals that it is composed of two parts; a long spike on a pivoting base. The sundew tentacle is also composed of two parts; the retentive gland and the tentacle stalk. When the gland tip of the tentacle is touched, the joining point of the tentacle stalk pivots. This pivoting action seems to stimulate tentacle movement. Think about that. This is more evidance that the trigger hair in Dionaea is a modified sundew tentacle. Ivan Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Steve Clancy Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:45:34 -0800 Subject: Re: Borneo FOODBAG@aol.com wrote: > ... hobby and he said he spent time in Malaysia as a kid and > remembered seeing " Venus flytraps" growing in the wild. I told him > that it was something else, possibly a sundew, but he seemed quite > convinced and described it as interesting how it caught insects. Any > speculation of what this might be? I did not think anyone would get a > Nepenthes and a flytrap confused. > > Well, of course that must be the "Malaysian Death Plant!" "Dionea malaysiensis" if I'm not mistaken. ;-))) --steve -- Steve Clancy MLS,AHIP,Health Sciences Librarian Research & Instructional Services, Science Library University of California, Irvine CA. U.S.A. 949-824-7309 * sclancy@uci.edu * http://Sun3.lib.uci.edu/~sclancy --------------------------------------------------------------------- "To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk." -- Thomas A. Edison (1847 - 1931) ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:51:09 +0000 Subject: Re: Darlingtonia John, > >I've tried slicing the seed case a number of times and found that the seed >doesn't germinate. Wether I sliced too much off or sliced something vital I >don't know. > >I've found that the best way,like yourself, is to rub the seed coat with >sandpaper and submerge in water for 24 hrs. > >One thread that seems to come thru in the latest discussion is the plant >dies (or at least becomes weakened )after flowering. Have other listserve >members found this to be the case? > I've not had this happen to any of my plants. What usually kills mine is not being able to get the soil completely dry before the onset of winter. With our weather this seem vital since otherwise the plants simply rot. I do know that once flowering the main stem of the plant dies but it should usually regenerate from side shoots further down the plant. Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:24:31 -0000 Subject: Re: CITES and Nepenthes seed? >I am curious to hear "expert" opinion regarding the legality of undocumented >international mailing of CITES App. II seed. I am aware that there are >certain exemptions (flasked orchids, etc.) to the permit process - is App. >II seed (specifically from Nepenthes spp. or hybrids) also exempt? My >re-reading of the Convention's clauses regarding "parts" has left me >with a throbbing headache... Hi Jay. This is probaqbly not the answer you were seeking hut what the heck! I'm not going to refer directly to CITES rules. I am going to refer to the Biodiversity Conventions (BC's, as I can't be bothered retyping so much!). The BC's dictate that all signatory countries (and all the important countries have signed, especially those with interesting plants) reserve the absolute rights connected with the flora and fauna (all biodiversity) within their borders. (It's a bit like putting a copyright on your plants to prevent others making profit from what's not theirs - touchy subject!!!) By absolute rights, the BC's give undisputed ownership of all rights to the country of origin of the living organism. Ownership of all rights covers not just the whole plants, but seeds and any part of the plant. Far less known is that information is also protected, so if you visit a plant in the wild and discover a new fact anbout it, that fact is protected and the country in which the habitat exists (where you saw what was new) has a right to control when, where and how the new fact is published or if it is published at all. They also have full rights to any benefits that accrue from publsihing information or from any plant (whole or part thereof) or seeds that are distributed. People are amazed by the protection of information but actually this is a primary part of the BC's. For example, if a drug company finds an endemic plant in the Brazilian jungle and determines that the plant contains a useful drug, then Brazil owns that information - the rule is designed to prevent large companies making commercial profits from information about plants found in third world countries. What all this means, as far as your question is concerned, is that the BC's dictate that seed taken from a wild plant (or from material that can be shown to have originated as a wild plant) can not be distributed without the permission of the country of origin of the wild material. So, for example, if someone visits Borneo and finds a new Nepenthes species: First - publication of the new species requires the permission from an appropriate agency within Borneo, Second - any plant material removed, including seed, must be accompanied by permission from such an agency. Ignore either rule and the material or information is effectively illegally obtained. As soon as that is true, CITES or Customs can confiscate the material. If someone collectes plants or seeds, grows them, collects new seeds and then distributes those seeds, they are still stolen property and technically belong to the country where the wild material originated. Exactly how anyone can determine that seeds originate from a wild plant is a mystery and a clear loophole for those intending to flout the BC's and local laws within countries. I think I've got this right. The best person to tell othrwise is Mad (if you see what I mean), and she'll no doubt corect me if I am wrong. But as often as I've written this, no-one has said I am in error. Regards Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:33:07 -0000 Subject: Re: Photocopies of CPN (alias U. longifolia) >> So, how do I cause U. longifolia to bloom? >Have you tried threatening it with legal action? Silly boy - you should ask it for permission to force it to bloom before threatening it! :-) Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:49:31 -0500 Subject: Ping moranensis Hey there, I have a few pings that are spilling seed every where, anybody have a favorite tried and true method for complete 100%, no questions asked, you get what you pay for, take the money and run, germination. Just thought I'd check before I dumped them on ground NZ sphagnum and threw them on the RO mist bench! Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: john green Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:57:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Re : Drosera Snap Traps? > >Ok, so sundews are hardly the speediest of trappers when > >furling their leaves around prey, but has anyone > >experimented to find out how many glands must get excited > >before furling starts? Have Droseras developed a > >redundancy mechanism like Dionaeas? > >NigelH > > ... Microscopic examination of Dionaea's trigger hairs reveals > that it is composed of two parts; a long spike on a pivoting > base. The sundew tentacle is also composed of two parts; the > retentive gland and the tentacle stalk. When the gland tip of > the tentacle is touched, the joining point of the tentacle > stalk pivots. This pivoting action seems to stimulate > tentacle movement. Think about that. This is more evidance > that the trigger hair in Dionaea is a modified sundew tentacle. > Ivan > Hermosa Beach > California Very interesting! Does this mean that Droseras respond only to movement? I don't know where I got the idea, but I always thought that they also responded to taste (for lack of a better word). In other words, I thought that the gland could sense that there was something edible sticking to it (I hope this is making sense?!?) as opposed to a grain of sand or dead leaf or something. Maybe what I need is a brief lesson in the anatomy of a sundew leaf. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:42:47 -0500 Subject: Re : Drosera Snap Traps? Dear John, > Very interesting! Does this mean that Droseras respond only to movement. No. Both _Dionaea_ and _Drosera_ have species that respond to both movement and taste. This the one of the things that subcarnivores don't do--taste their prey. The Drosera seem to rely on taste more than Dionaea to activate a trap, but perhaps we are not seeing the whole picture and movement is also part of it. Whereas Dionaea use taste to keep the trap shut... Dave Evans ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:02:20 +0000 Subject: Re: CITES and Nepenthes seed? Hi all, It must have been late when I typed this posting. Either that or the senility is coming on sooner than I expected...:-) The below should have read "Mexican Cacti seed originating from Mexico". Where the reference to Canada came from I have no idea! Sorry for any confusion caused, especially to Canadian Cacti growers on the list. :-) >I am curious to hear "expert" opinion regarding the legality of undocumented >international mailing of CITES App. II seed. I am aware that there are >certain exemptions (flasked orchids, etc.) to the permit process - is App. >II seed (specifically from Nepenthes spp. or hybrids) also exempt? My >re-reading of the Convention's clauses regarding "parts" has left me with a >throbbing headache... > This is from the horses mouth so to speak.... A few months ago I emailed Ger Van Vliet from CITES on this issue. His reply was that there are no controls on the international trade in App II seed with the exception of Mexican Cacti seeds originating from Canada. Seeds from App I are restricted under the convention. If you want to see the original mail drop me a personal mail and I will forward a copy of his email. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Pthiel" Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:33:42 -0500 Subject: Bruce L Bednar Email Sorry to disturb the list, but does anyone have a current email address for Bruce L Bednar of Lee's Botanical Gardens? Thanks, Pete Thiel pthiel@ecfactory.net ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:59:26 -0600 Subject: Mealworms... Has anyone used mealworms as plantfood? My local petstore has tons of them and has shown me how to maintain a virtually inexhaustable supply of them. They are larvae that eat meal and potatoes, pupate and produce little black beetles that quickly mate and create the next generation. I don't see a problem with a pitcher style plant - they should drown like any other bug, but I wonder if a VFT would be able to handle one... Cheers, Mike ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:07:41 -0600 Subject: Hello? Did the listserv crash? My messages haven't been popping up and traffic seems to be at a standstill... Mike ################### From: "Charles V. Rossi" Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:37:18 -0800 Subject: Re: Mealworms... On Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 12:06:01PM -0800, Michael Vanecek wrote: > > Has anyone used mealworms as plantfood? My local petstore has tons of > them and has shown me how to maintain a virtually inexhaustable supply > of them. They are larvae that eat meal and potatoes, pupate and produce My weird British officemate explained to me how he kept a bunch of mealworms and/or maggots living in a plastic container. The container was actually the base of a little food processor. At some point, when some of the larve had turned to bugs, he would just flip the switch and make a sort of "maggot mash" which he'd then feed to VFTs and Drosera. Seems like a good idea, if you have the stomach for it..... Chuckr ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:36:29 -0600 Subject: Re: Mealworms... Eewe, that's a little more gross than I care for... maggot mash. I think some of the plants actually digest living bugs that died in their grips better than dead bugs. They probably absorb the enzymes faster in their death throes or something... As long as the mealworm doesn't eat its way out, I think they'll be a cheap source of food for a mess of plants. Cheers, Mike "Charles V. Rossi" wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 12:06:01PM -0800, Michael Vanecek wrote: > > > > Has anyone used mealworms as plantfood? My local petstore has tons of > > them and has shown me how to maintain a virtually inexhaustable supply > > of them. They are larvae that eat meal and potatoes, pupate and produce > > My weird British officemate explained to me how he kept a bunch of mealworms > and/or maggots living in a plastic container. The container was actually the > base of a little food processor. At some point, when some of the larve had > turned to bugs, he would just flip the switch and make a sort of "maggot mash" > which he'd then feed to VFTs and Drosera. > > Seems like a good idea, if you have the stomach for it..... > > Chuckr ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:39:54 -0600 Subject: Re: Hello? Solved - my ISP's smtp server was hosed. Mike Michael Vanecek wrote: > > Did the listserv crash? My messages haven't been popping up and traffic > seems to be at a standstill... > > Mike ################### From: "Bruce Salmon" Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:15:22 +1300 Subject: Carnivorous Pokemon After checking the Pokemon site.... www.pokemon-card-picture.com I found a coupla CP-looking Pokemon The Nep-e-mon is called Victreebel There is also a Utric-e-mon called Bellsprout Check out thier pictures from the drop down list Bruce ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:42:06 EST Subject: Re: The last word on copying of CPN Hello again readers of this list, The ICPS relies on the support of hundreds of members, many hard-working volunteers, and many dozens of talented authors. If, in asserting our rights to the CPN in a clear and straightforward way, I have offended any of those people, I am sincerely sorry, and I apologize. Responding to critics regarding wholesale copying of the CPN, copying for trade, and copying material that is believed to be "out-of-print": The CPN is the publication of the ICPS, and as such is one of the primary benefits of membership in the ICPS. It is also our largest asset. The publication is protected by copyright in the U.S. and other signatory countries. The ICPS would not continue to exist if we were to give away all our publications, or allow others to do so. The authors and editors of the CPN work hard to make a world class publication. They deserve full credit, and corresponding protection for their efforts. It is important that we protect our rights to the material we've published, to protect the authors original work, to protect the integrity of articles we have published from corruption, to protect rights to future republishing in any form, and only in a very small way, to protect any small monetary gains we might realize from the sale of back issues. It is also incumbent upon the officers of the ICPS to act in the interest of upholding the laws and protecting the rights of our authors. One writer claimed that portions of articles may be copied for personal study within the narrow bounds of copyright law; that is so, but that does not allow for wholesale copying of issues. I did check with my counsel. The law allows for copying individual articles, for personal study only ( and not for trade ). What was proposed was wholesale copying of issues for personal gain. That is scarcely different from pirating CD's, movies, or a patented product. Back issues of almost all volumes are available from the ICPS. Those that are not available at this moment, WILL be made available in some form or other in the future. We retain the copyright to material that is "out-of-print" ( since the CPN is a journal, all material is by subscription, and not "in" or "out" of print ). We reserve the copyright to ALL the material we have published so that we may ensure the form and quality of the reprints. Even if we were never to make back issues available, we still would retain all rights. If the International Pinguicula Study Group, and the UK Carnivorous Plant Society grant permission for photocopying of their back issues, then that is their prerogative. The ICPS has gone on record with their position. The ICPS journal is present in a great number of libraries in North America and Europe. Difficulty in finding or affording the journal does not justify braking the laws. I suggest that those who wish to read the information in CPN do so at ( or through interlibrary loan, from ) their local library, even if that involves some effort. Generous individuals might consider a donation to provide their local library, school, or botanical garden with CPN, so that others may read them. Those who choose not to observe laws they don't agree with, are free to hold their opinions, but for them to solicit illegal copies of the ICPS on an open listserve is foolish, and to me, offensive. This will be the last word on this topic from me. I'd like to get back to the important work before the society. In the next few months I will be completing the efforts on our legal status, working on various fiscal improvements for the ICPS, adding other improvements to increase convenience for our members, participating in our conservation initiatives and recommendations to international agencies, building our CP cultivar bank program, writing articles for CPN, and continuing my work to improve the CP collection at the UCBG at Berkeley. I would welcome your comments, cooperation, and participation. Respectfully, David O. Gray President, International Carnivorous Plant Society 3310 East Yorba Linda Blvd. # 330 Fullerton, CA 92831-1790 ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:33:59 EST Subject: Re: Carnivorous Pokemon Bruce and All, Yes, to us, Victreebell is obviosuly a Nepenthes pitcher. I noticed this right away when he appeared on the cartoon that my five-year old daughter used to watch(she prefers "Looney Tunes" now-gets her taste from Dad in the fine arts of cartoons). Unfortunately, when McDonald's came out with their collector cards in Happy Meals, my daughter got a picture of this poke'mon, and there was a trivia question, "What plant is Victreebell modeled after?". The answer unfortunately, was "The Venus Flytrap". Sigh. Hopefully a mistake on McDonald's and not Nintendo. Since we are on games and CP, I don't play "Magic: The Gathering", but I saw a card mat that I was tempted to buy. It was covered in CP, mostly Nepenthes. Something for the CP paraphanalia collector to look out for. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "R B" Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:48:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Carnivorous Pokemon >Since we are on games and CP, I don't play "Magic: The Gathering", >but I >saw a card mat that I was tempted to buy. It was covered in >CP, mostly >Nepenthes. Something for the CP paraphanalia collector to >look out for. I play Magic the Gathering. There is a Magic card called "Carnivorous Plant". It is a green card from the Dark set, a 4/5 wall. It is not a very good picture, I think it is showing a Venus Flytrap. The card is a common card and not hard to find. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:02:27 -0600 Subject: Re: Carnivorous Pokemon Maybe we should come up with some sort of CP trading cards... :) Mike R B wrote: > > >Since we are on games and CP, I don't play "Magic: The Gathering", >but I > >saw a card mat that I was tempted to buy. It was covered in >CP, mostly > >Nepenthes. Something for the CP paraphanalia collector to >look out for. > > I play Magic the Gathering. There is a Magic card called "Carnivorous > Plant". It is a green card from the Dark set, a 4/5 wall. It is not a very > good picture, I think it is showing a Venus Flytrap. The card is a common > card and not hard to find. > > Ron > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:19:05 +0000 Subject: Re: The last word on copying of CPN > >If the International Pinguicula Study Group, and the UK Carnivorous Plant >Society grant permission for photocopying of their back issues, then that is >their prerogative. The ICPS has gone on record with their position. > Let me make one thing perfectly clear. I do not condone copying of any of the publications I am involved with and all material is covered by copyright laws. I also accept that the ICPS has the right to pursue its own agenda on copyright. I just wish that you could have done so in a more appropriate and less offensive manner. If people were proved to have copied IPSG or CPS material they would be tackled appropriately. The action used would be according to the situation but might include anything from a gentle reminder to maybe cancellation of membership in more extreme cases. I think threats or actual legal action would be a last resort and crucially would only be considered if the losses could justify it. One person copying one publication does not constitute a serious loss in my opinion and I suspect that any English court would take this view as well. > > >This will be the last word on this topic from me. I'd like to get back >to the Why? If you publicly cause offence, as and elected official you should at least take part in the consequent debate. >important work before the society. In the next few months I will be >completing the efforts on our legal status, working on various fiscal >improvements for the ICPS, adding other improvements to increase convenience >for our members, participating in our conservation initiatives and >recommendations to international agencies, building our CP cultivar bank >program, writing articles for CPN, and continuing my work to improve the CP >collection at the UCBG at Berkeley. I would welcome your comments, >cooperation, and participation. > But surely you will have your hands full with all these national and international legal cases you will now presumably be bringing. Are we to expect a membership increase to cover the costs? I think about $50 a year should just about cover it... ;-) Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "pepe gaut" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:12:43 -0000 XSubject: Re: The last word on copying of CPN subscribe _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: "Mark Bachelor" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:24:18 +1100 Subject: Re: Mealworms... Mealworms make great food for all pitcher plants that are denied natural foods, but they tend to escape VFTS, so use the pupae for them. The wriggling pupae set off the traps with no problems. I have used them for years. They are great for helping get baby Neps and Cephs growing. Regards Mark T. Bachelor Biology Technician Melbourne Girls Grammar School Voice: +61 (03) 9862 9200 86 Anderson Street Fax: +61 (O3) 9866 5768 South Yarra, 3141 Victoria, Australia >>> 11/02/01 3:41 pm >>> Has anyone used mealworms as plantfood? I don't see a problem with a pitcher style plant - they should drown like any other bug, but I wonder if a VFT would be able to handle one... Cheers, Mike ################### From: Laurent Legendre Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:31:03 +1100 Subject: Re: Re : Drosera Snap Traps? Dear Nigel, Ivan, John and Dave, Good observation! Ivan, you're indeed correct in your explication of the functionning of the trigger hair/tentacle. Both are made of two stiff parts linked to each other by a thinner, softer short part which is called the hinge region since the whole organ folds like a door on its hinge. Basically, when the external stiff part is touched, the hinge region bends and thus receives all of the mechanical force (amplified by the length of the outer stiff section). The cells of the hinge region are under great stress during their deformation and they are the onces which send the mouvement signal to the base of the tentacle inthe case of Drosera and to the outer cell layer of the Dionaea trap. It is considered by some authors that in the case of Dionaea, all of the bases of the tentacles (which heads are the small red dots on inner surface of the trap and the trigger hair which is indeed a deformed tentacle) are fused thus explaining that the whole leaf folds because the movement signal can then reach all of them contrary to Drosera where this signal stays confined to the base of one tentacle. The thing is that this hinge region can only be activated if you touch the outer stiff segment and that it is located close to the base of the trigger hair of Dionaea and just under the head of the tentacle of Drosera. So, this explains the fast mouvement of these two traps and is induced mechanically only. But there is a second mouvement which is much slower. This second mouvement is induced chemically by substances leaching from the digested pray. In Dionaea, it is clearly seen and only occurs when there is food. Basically look at the teeth onthe edge of the trap. After the first mouvement they cross in a non-reproducible pattern and the edges of the trap are not sealed. And as you know, Dionaea just like humans are supposed to talk the mouth open. So, during the second mouvement, the edges seal and external teeth become parallel. In Drosera, the leaf margin will fold slowly bringing several tentacle closer to the centre of the trap. Now, here is one more piece of food for thoughts. In the case of both Drosera and Dionaea, tentacles always move towards the centre of the leaf and the further away they are from this centre, the more distance they cover. The Dionaea trap does not shut like a door, Look carefully, It folds on itself. Ivan, I have place on paper the entire content of my talk in San Francisco with a couple additional details and a full description of all of the experiments (plus a couple more) and many illustration. It is a sizable manuscript which at this stage is still only in the French language. But I do intend to translate it into english shortly and will submit it to CPN for all of you guyes to read. Have the best fun experimenting with your plants, Laurent Legendre ################### From: "pepe gaut" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 05:59:35 -0000 Subject: Bonjour Bonjour, Je m'appelle Pepe Gaut from Paris. I join list for cp and enjoy to growth Sarracenia and butterwords. I enjoy to listen for good information.... Au revoir, Pepe. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:13:17 -0800 Subject: Re: Mealworms Hi everyone, > > >Mealworms make great food for all pitcher plants that are denied natural >foods, but they tend to escape VFTS, so use the pupae for them. The >wriggling pupae set off the traps with no problems. I have used them for >years. They are great for helping get baby Neps and Cephs growing. > I've used mealworms to feed many of my larger plants for a number of years. They do seem to appreciate the food, but I would recommend killing them before feeding them to any plant. I have had them chew their way out of Sarr and Nep pitchers before. Just a warning! Chris -- Chris Teichreb http://www.geocities.com/cteichreb ("Coastal Carnivores", my homepage) http://www.geocities.com/VCPC2000 (Vancouver Carnivorous Plant Club) ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:47:37 -0800 Subject: Nepenthes Trap Evolution Hi David, Jan and all, Looks like David O. Gray is not going to tell us about his Nepenthes evolution idea, so I guess I'll have to tell you about it. Hope you don't mind David. Basically, David told me he thought that Nepenthes evolved from an ant associate plant, and in the beginning ants made their home in the tendrils of the proto-Nepenthes, as they still do today in N. bicalcarata. Then I suppose over time the plant slowly elaborated on this ant home organ and eventually found a benefit changing the relationship from symbiosis to carnivory; ...the host ate the guests. I like this idea very much, and for those that subscribe to the idea that Triphyophyllum and Nepenthes share a common distant ancestry, I think this idea would be particularly attractive. I can imagine a plant similar to Tryphyophyllum having tendrils, sans pitchers, instead of the pair of grasping hooks at the leaf tips. A plant such as this would look much like Nepenthes, don't you think? Looking at a botanical drawing of Tryphyophyllum, the hooks appear to be on a stalk. Perhaps such a stalk elongated and became a tendril? Here is something curious, the fangs of N. bicalcarata are like hooks. Jan, you are the undisputed Tryphyophyllum expert, are the fangs of N. bicalcarata and hooks of Tryphyophyllum at all analogous in comparative architecture? Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: j.dewitte@t-online.de (Jean-Pierre De Witte) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:52:17 +0100 Subject: re The last word on copying of CPN Hi people, I am sorry but I couldn't resist, even if this is at the end of the tread. I am involved now and then with "Intellectual Asset Management", so the Q on copying is not totally strange to me. When David answered the question, he had to do this in the framework of the law, whether you like it or not (if you don't like it, write your congressman, or think different when somebody uses your holidaypix for publicity - just a copy you know -). Please accept that he didn't have another possibility. What we all decide and allow in our private home has no relation with the constraints put on "legal entities". If you have problems with this, please don't flame David, as he couldn't have done otherwise. If he states "well, you could if you want but don't make it to blunt blah blah" then he is on behalf of CPN and ICPS legally giving up the copyright to everybody. His language doesn't sound pleasant, but that is the way it has to be. Regards to all, ____________________________ Jean-Pierre De Witte mailto:j.dewitte@t-online.de http://www.jeandewitte.de ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:57:40 -0600 Subject: Re: Mealworms Awe man. Half the fun is watching them wiggle hopelessly in the plant while it gleefully drowns them... :) Mike Chris Teichreb wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > >Mealworms make great food for all pitcher plants that are denied natural > >foods, but they tend to escape VFTS, so use the pupae for them. The > >wriggling pupae set off the traps with no problems. I have used them for > >years. They are great for helping get baby Neps and Cephs growing. > > > > I've used mealworms to feed many of my larger plants for a number > of years. They do seem to appreciate the food, but I would > recommend killing them before feeding them to any plant. I have > had them chew their way out of Sarr and Nep pitchers before. Just > a warning! > > Chris > > -- > Chris Teichreb > > http://www.geocities.com/cteichreb ("Coastal Carnivores", > my homepage) > > http://www.geocities.com/VCPC2000 (Vancouver Carnivorous > Plant Club) ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:53:15 +0000 Subject: Re: CITES and Nepenthes seed? Hi Paul, So the rights to the human genome information belong to the country of origin of the human or humans who had their genomes analysed? NigelH > Topic No. 20 > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:24:31 -0000 > From: Paul Temple > To: CP listserver mail address > Subject: Re: CITES and Nepenthes seed? > Message-ID: Far less known is that information is also protected, so if you visit a plant in > the wild and discover a new fact anbout it, that fact is protected and > the country in which the habitat exists (where you saw what was new) > has a right to control when, where and how the new fact is published > or if it is published at all. They also have full rights to any > benefits that accrue from publsihing information or from any plant > (whole or part thereof) or seeds that are distributed. People are > amazed by the protection of information but actually this is a primary > part of the BC's. For example, if a drug company finds an endemic > plant in the Brazilian jungle and determines that the plant contains a > useful drug, then Brazil owns that information - the rule is designed > to prevent large companies making commercial profits from information > about plants found in third world countries. > > ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:17:51 -0600 Subject: Nepenthes seed wanted Kinda looking for n. ventricosa, but would like to hear what else is out there... Thanks, Mike ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:06:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Botanical Gardens Hey Folks, For some reason, I never thought of posting an entry in the CP FAQ on places people can see plants at Botanical Gardens. Any suggestions on Bot Gardens that have CP? Some people are hungry for anything, so I'd like to have suggestions from lots and lots of states. Please cc your suggestions to me at bazza@sarracenia.com so I don't miss them in the listserve. Cheers Barry --------------------- Dr. Barry Meyers-Rice bazza@sarracenia.com Carnivorous Plant FAQ--author www.sarracenia.com/faq.html Carnivorous Plant Newsletter--editor www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:41:24 EST Subject: Re: The last word on copying of CPN I can certainly see why David had to respond as he did, since this is a public forum and anything written here could be used as evidence. It may have been more cordial to keep it simpler and simply state the ICPS does not allow unauthorized reproduction of its journals, so don't do it, but I'm certainly not going to fault him for what he wrote. The one important factor I am seeing here, and which is most crucial is; All the back journals are still available through the ICPS, or will be again at some point in the foreseeable future. I think we need to support our society fully considering they put out a journal that is of a very high grade professional quality at a very low annual membership fee. If this means waiting until the specific journal again becomes available, then that is part of the price we pay. I personally don't see that there is any article in any of the journals of such monumental proportions to require it's immediate acquisition. Also, as was pointed out earlier, if someone has a problem with how things are being run (such as availability of back journals) one can always run for board membership and try to change these things. I think the suggestion of getting all the issues onto CD is a grand idea, as it would certainly address a lot of the current problems of availability and storage...Only a few masters of each year need be stored with CD copies being burned as necessary when requests come in. Hamir the Hermit "If you get caught, don't tell them about me, The last one who did, well, we tied him to a tree, Out in the high desert by an ant hill, Haven't been back there since, guess he's swingin' there still." [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:51:10 -0500 Subject: RE: Botanical Gardens How about Frederik Meijer Gardens in Grand Rapids MI! Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Barry Meyers-Rice Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 3:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hey Folks, For some reason, I never thought of posting an entry in the CP FAQ on places people can see plants at Botanical Gardens. Any suggestions on Bot Gardens that have CP? Some people are hungry for anything, so I'd like to have suggestions from lots and lots of states. Please cc your suggestions to me at bazza@sarracenia.com so I don't miss them in the listserve. Cheers Barry --------------------- Dr. Barry Meyers-Rice bazza@sarracenia.com Carnivorous Plant FAQ--author www.sarracenia.com/faq.html Carnivorous Plant Newsletter--editor www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:14:26 EST Subject: Back to Mealybugs In a message dated 1/30/01 3:26:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, insecttrap@hotmail.com writes: > Attached is a picture, The large black insect is a Crypt, a > beneficial insect predator that eats mealybugs. The little white > fuzzy insects are the mealybugs. I'm sure someone can better answer > your question, about what mealybugs are, but I know that they are > insects that suck the plants sap. > How effective are these creatures, and is it possible to buy them somewhere? Is there any other type of biological control that can be applied. I have never seen any ladybugs we have around here in the LA area eating the Mealybugs which seem to love to infest my Sarracenias. Actually, the problem is that the nomadic Argentinian ants which are endemic here love to farm these things and are constantly re-seeding them onto my plants. I usually end up having to drench my plants with malathion or orthene at the beginning of fall to get rid of the mealys before the winter starts and they kill the plants during their dormancy. I'd prefer to use something that doesn't also kill all the Daphnia and other aquatic critters I have in my tabletop bog.... Hamir the Hermit "If you get caught, don't tell them about me, The last one who did, well, we tied him to a tree, Out in the high desert by an ant hill, Haven't been back there since, guess he's swingin' there still." [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:39:36 -0500 Subject: RE: Back to Mealybugs Otherwise known as Cryptolaemus montrouzieri, or 'The Mealybug Destroyer' these little ladybird beatles do a very good job of cleaning up heavy infestations. They are commercially available from commercial insectaries. We have used many different companies for our bio-controls, but the company I would recommend is: THE GREEN SPOT 93 PRIEST ROAD NOTTINGHAM NH 03290-6204 603/942-8925 You will want to talk to Mike Cherim. Hope this helps, If you need any further info on the bios we use here at FMG, contact me off list. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org -----Original Message----- Behalf Of HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 4:16 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP In a message dated 1/30/01 3:26:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, insecttrap@hotmail.com writes: > Attached is a picture, The large black insect is a Crypt, a > beneficial insect predator that eats mealybugs. The little white > fuzzy insects are the mealybugs. I'm sure someone can better answer > your question, about what mealybugs are, but I know that they are > insects that suck the plants sap. > How effective are these creatures, and is it possible to buy them somewhere? Is there any other type of biological control that can be applied. I have never seen any ladybugs we have around here in the LA area eating the Mealybugs which seem to love to infest my Sarracenias. Actually, the problem is that the nomadic Argentinian ants which are endemic here love to farm these things and are constantly re-seeding them onto my plants. I usually end up having to drench my plants with malathion or orthene at the beginning of fall to get rid of the mealys before the winter starts and they kill the plants during their dormancy. I'd prefer to use something that doesn't also kill all the Daphnia and other aquatic critters I have in my tabletop bog.... Hamir the Hermit "If you get caught, don't tell them about me, The last one who did, well, we tied him to a tree, Out in the high desert by an ant hill, Haven't been back there since, guess he's swingin' there still." [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:45:14 EST Subject: Re: Collection numbers, CA energy shortage, global warming, and thanks In a message dated 1/14/01 10:23:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, michaelpagoulatos@yahoo.com writes: > 2. Steve Klitzing, you wrote "...As for the skyrocketing utility prices here > in > California, heating my greenhouse is making things expensive...' and "...As > for > our government, well, like government anywhere, we have career politicians > who > only do what's necessary to appease their constituency...". > > There is no shakedown to jack the electricity prices up, Steve. California > has > not built any power stations in at least 15 years, caving under pressure > from > enviro-wacko organizations. California has been buying power from > neighboring > States like Oregon which, during a really cold winter may not have excess > power > to sell! I am sure that the enviro-wackos who may be sitting in the dark > and > freezing, are warm inside for saving the 5-legged hermaphrodite rat and the > flatulence-propellent cockroach! To my many friends and family in CA, force > your Congress-critters to obey your will; politicos' first priority is to > get > re-/elected. > This one goes back a ways, but that's what happens when you're sorting through a month and a half's worth of e-mails, and I couldn't let this go without comment. As is now coming to light, there is indeed a shakedown going on here, what with Edison and PG&E having siphoned off billions from their subsidiaries in California, leaving them in the destitute condition they're now in. And tho our current state administration is Democratic, the majority of the past 15 years has been Republican controlled, and they are not reknowned for caving into "enviro-wackos." Quite the opposite, in fact. Interesting that this lack of building power-generating stations gives the power companies a convenient scapegoat on which to piggyback their demands for exhorbitant rate hikes... many of which are causing commercial greenhouse operations to shut down, or even fall into bankruptcy. Personally, I'm much more fond of the flatulence-propellent cockroach than I am the flatulence propelled CEO and two-faced, double-talking MNC spin-doctor. >>3. Good news!: London Telegraph article, titled "Global warming claims 'based >>on false data'", Well, good in that it may only be 60% as bad as we thought, in that the article states estimates of temperature increases may be off as much as 40%. I guess if your wife went to Vegas and lost 100K on the slot machines and you then found out because of her sloppy bookkeeping it was really only 60K that would be reason to rejoice. Hamir the Hermit "If you get caught, don't tell them about me, The last one who did, well, we tied him to a tree, Out in the high desert by an ant hill, Haven't been back there since, guess he's swingin' there still." [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:11:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens Barry, Flamingo Gardens, Davie, FL and Fairchild Tropical Gardens, Coral Gables, FL used to have some Nepenthes on display, but I do not currently know. Michael Manna >From: Barry Meyers-Rice >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: Botanical Gardens >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:08:45 -0800 (PST) > >Hey Folks, > >For some reason, I never thought of posting an entry in the CP FAQ on >places people can see plants at Botanical Gardens. Any suggestions on Bot >Gardens that have CP? Some people are hungry for anything, so I'd like to >have suggestions from lots and lots of states. Please cc your suggestions >to me at bazza@sarracenia.com so I don't miss them in the listserve. > >Cheers > >Barry > >--------------------- >Dr. Barry Meyers-Rice > bazza@sarracenia.com >Carnivorous Plant FAQ--author > www.sarracenia.com/faq.html >Carnivorous Plant Newsletter--editor > www.carnivorousplants.org > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: "Stefan Ploszak" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:11:42 Subject: Re: The last word on copying of CPN >If, in asserting our rights to the CPN in a clear and straightforward >way, >I have offended any of those >people, I am sincerely sorry, and I apologize. >Back issues of almost all volumes are available from the ICPS. Those that >are >not available at this moment, WILL be made available in some form or other >in >the future. We retain the copyright to material that is "out-of-print" ( >since the CPN is a journal, all material is by subscription, and not "in" >or >"out" of print ). We reserve the copyright to ALL the material we have >published so that we may ensure the form and quality of the reprints. Even >if >we were never to make back issues available, we still would retain all >rights. I appreciate your attempt to apologize, but these warnings are becoming redundant. All these warnings of violating copyrights, retaining rights, etc, made me wonder, "what is the purpose of the ICPS?" Therefore, what is the purpose of the CPN? Is it not to educate, share information, unite growers of these wonderful plants, etc? At a time long before the internet, what motivated the original founders of the ICPS? Was it to produce a journal that is worthy of copyrighting? Or, could it have been to unite growers worldwide, to share information, material, etc? I understand the need for copyrights, patents, trademarks, but the original post did not suggest that someone is trying to sell copies for a profit. People are trying to exchange copies of the journal, to share information. I know I've diverged from the issue, but I think we've lost perspective. Stefan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: John Brittnacher Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:13:31 -0800 Subject: ICPS Seed Bank has new web pages I have been adding new content on ICPS Seed Bank web site over the past month. There is now an FAQ page. It explains some of details of running and using the seed bank. I expanded the seed germination guide and added links to other sites. If you have a site where you discuss seed germination and you are a member, I can add a link to your page. Also if you have any comments about what I say, please let me know (off list) as I want the information to be as accurate and useful as possible. The seed donation page has been slightly updated and I have added two secondary pages to it. One page details how to make paper envelopes. These envelopes are really cute, really work, and are fun to make. The other new page shows how to fold seed packets. If you want to send seed to the seed bank already packetized, this is how to do it. If anything on these pages isn't clear, please let me know (off list) and please suggest ways to make it more clear. If you feel the secondary pages are of sufficient interest, please tell me so and I will make buttons to them. As usual the seed bank listing is always up to date. And I am working on more pages. To encourage you to donate Pinguicula seeds I will doing "the sex life of Pinguicula" real soon now. Thanks to Barry for the lessons! ################### From: Albert Huntington Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:34:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens > and Fairchild Tropical Gardens, Coral Gables, FL > Michael Manna Didn't see any when I was there in September...they've got a very nice Amorphophallus display however... Try Longwood Gardens, Kennett Square PA with a very nice display. I'm sure Barry knows about the UC Botanical Garden in Berkeley, CA. --Albert ===== Albert Huntington San Jose, CA U.S.A. Visit my greenhouse at: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Jungle/1436 ----------------------------------------------- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ################### From: bruce dudley Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 04:47:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Is that fly really edible? Hi all Seems like everyone is finally trying to resolve the 'issues' around photocopying CPN issues. Apparently a bad taste will be in everyone's mouth for a while to come. To bring closure, I believe that David deserves an apology and a round of applause.....He was put into a HORRIBLE position and he stood strong! Congratulations, David, you promoted the professionalism of the ICPS officers and have moved the CPN to the status of National Geographic and other 'informational' magazines which offer great literature and pictures (a biggie for the visual learners). Who would dare go onto NG's website and say they would photocopy back issues??? I would hope no one would be so foolish! Also, from a business standpoint (here's where the teacher comes out): there may be thousands of subscribers on this list. Consider the numbers.... Everyone of us decides to use the "free copy service" promoted at the beginning of this thread. We are nice at first. We all just ask for one page copied and mailed to us. Now, this poor soul (can't even remember who wrote the first message; poor guy!!!) agrees to photocopy one page of 1000 requests! Who will pay for the reams of paper?? He does! Okay, paper is cheap. Who pays for the photocopy use? Okay, he owns his own machine. He must pay for the upkeep, though, and these machines are terribly expensive! Who has time to stand behind a photocopy machine? Time is money. He still has to fulfill the requests on a timely basis and is forced to stand behind his machine for hours at a time (for free). Who pays for the postage to mail to addresses in the US AND overseas? He does! Can he ask for any compensation, say $1.00??? Gotcha! No, he cannot. He offered a free service and can take no compensation. So, just the financial aspect of the matter shows that we get a great "deal" by paying a little for the services the ICPS offers. And, in the future, be careful what is offered here. This list goes everywhere, all around the world. As for this thread resembling the squirrel thread of 2000, I noticed that too! Telling someone what they should NOT be doing really cuts to the bones of some people. Some of the most educated people simply do not think the laws and ethics of others refer to them. It is an amazing world. People can be very selfish and 'expect' everything that they do to be okay with everyone else. These are a few thoughts that should help people understand what they already know, but are afraid to remember. Thank you David. You helped a few of our listserve readers to understand themselves better! Including myself. I'm glad that I do the right thing most of the time and I like myself for being that way... Cheers Bruce Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:31:55 CST6CDT Subject: Re: Mealybug destroyers Steve, Have you had luck using Crypts to eat mealybugs in Sarracenia?? I experimented with this last summer, but wasn't sure they would work, since so many of the mealybugs were INSIDE the Sarracenia pitchers, and I feared the Crypts would end up being eaten by the Sarracenia! I did put some on the plants, possibly not enough to be effective, but did not see a lot of help from them. Eventually, I chose the drowning method instead... I submerged all the potted Sarracenia in large tubs of water overnight. It was a lot of fun watching the mealybugs "pop" up to the surface of the water, seeking air, only to meet their death between my waiting fingers! It did not eliminate EVERY mealybug, but it certainly put a huge dent in the population, and the plants seemed just fine after their overnight "flood." But I will try the crypts again if is likely to work... I, too, recommend the Green Spot highly... we use their various critters extensively here in the conservatories at the Missouri Botanical Garden. Susan > Otherwise known as Cryptolaemus montrouzieri, or 'The Mealybug > Destroyer' these little ladybird beatles do a very good job of > cleaning up heavy infestations. They are commercially available from > commercial insectaries. > We have used many different companies for our bio-controls, but the > company > I would recommend is: > > THE GREEN SPOT > 93 PRIEST ROAD > NOTTINGHAM NH 03290-6204 > 603/942-8925 > > You will want to talk to Mike Cherim. > > Hope this helps, If you need any further info on the bios we use here > at FMG, contact me off list. > > Steven R. LaWarre > Grower > Frederik Meijer Gardens > 1000 E Beltline NE > Grand Rapids MI 49525 > (616)975-3175 > slawarre@meijergardens.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com]On > Behalf Of HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 4:16 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list CP Subject: Back to Mealybugs > > Attached is a picture, The large black insect is a Crypt, a > > beneficial insect predator that eats mealybugs. The little white > > fuzzy insects are the mealybugs. I'm sure someone can better answer > > your question, about what mealybugs are, but I know that they are > > insects that suck the plants sap. > > > How effective are these creatures, and is it possible to buy them > somewhere? Is there any other type of biological control that can be > applied. I have never seen any ladybugs we have around here in the LA > area eating the Mealybugs which seem to love to infest my Sarracenias. Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:47:22 CST6CDT Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens Barry, Since Steve set the example, I can toot my own horn, too! So how about including the Missouri Botanical Garden in your FAQ? We have about a half dozen Nepenthes on display in the Climatron tropical conservatory, plus I'm going to feature a couple of Nepenthes in the Linnean House this summer (built in 1882, this brick and glass Victorian conservatory was built at a time when Nepenthes were all the rage in hot houses). Our largest display is a good-sized bog display in the Shoenberg Temperate House (which I take care of, along with the Linnean House), featuring most species of Sarracenia, several species of Drosera, Darlingtonia (during the cooler months), Pinguicula primuliflora and mexican pings (on logs and rocks above the bog), several Utrics, both terrestial and aquatic, as well as a number of bog companion plants. Let me know anytime you want to visit! Susan > Hey Folks, > > For some reason, I never thought of posting an entry in the CP FAQ on > places people can see plants at Botanical Gardens. Any suggestions on > Bot Gardens that have CP? Some people are hungry for anything, so I'd > like to have suggestions from lots and lots of states. Please cc your > suggestions to me at bazza@sarracenia.com so I don't miss them in the > listserve. > > Cheers > > Barry Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:00:26 -0500 Subject: Copying CPN >I think we've lost perspective. Hi Stefan, I agree. The bottom line of all this is the following: 1. It's legal to copy pages from CPN. 2. It's legal to copy articles from CPN. 3. It's legal to copy as many articles from CPN as one likes. 4. It's illegal to copy CPN and sell those copies unless you have permission from ICPS. I appreciate David Gray taking my advice to check with legal counsel because it cleared up a lot of misconceptions about what's legal and what's not legal when it comes to copying CPN. The nice part about this this forum is that it gives ICPS members a voice in the actions and opinions of its officers. We shouldn't try to stifle those voices but rather we should encourage active dialog among all members. David Atlanta ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:34:33 -0500 Subject: RE: Is that fly really edible? >Can he ask for any compensation, say $1.00??? Gotcha! > No, he cannot. He offered a free service and can take >no compensation. Actually, I think he can. The US government hires contractors and pays them a fee for photocopying scientific articles for government employees. ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:45:49 -0500 Subject: RE: Mealybug destroyers I have used crypts on Sarrs, and they seem to work pretty well, I am fortunate enough to have access to larva from our conservatory on a pretty regular basis. So when I see mealy starting to get a foot hold I can just collect a few crypts larva and release them on the Sarrs. I also like the simple effectiveness of a good strong blast of water, followed by a thorough spray with horticultural oil (sunspray). This seems to work pretty well for mealy. I have not had a real big problem yet (cross my fingers, knock on wood) with mealy on my CP collection. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Susan Farrington Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 8:27 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Steve, Have you had luck using Crypts to eat mealybugs in Sarracenia?? I experimented with this last summer, but wasn't sure they would work, since so many of the mealybugs were INSIDE the Sarracenia pitchers, and I feared the Crypts would end up being eaten by the Sarracenia! I did put some on the plants, possibly not enough to be effective, but did not see a lot of help from them. Eventually, I chose the drowning method instead... I submerged all the potted Sarracenia in large tubs of water overnight. It was a lot of fun watching the mealybugs "pop" up to the surface of the water, seeking air, only to meet their death between my waiting fingers! It did not eliminate EVERY mealybug, but it certainly put a huge dent in the population, and the plants seemed just fine after their overnight "flood." But I will try the crypts again if is likely to work... I, too, recommend the Green Spot highly... we use their various critters extensively here in the conservatories at the Missouri Botanical Garden. Susan > Otherwise known as Cryptolaemus montrouzieri, or 'The Mealybug > Destroyer' these little ladybird beatles do a very good job of > cleaning up heavy infestations. They are commercially available from > commercial insectaries. > We have used many different companies for our bio-controls, but the > company > I would recommend is: > > THE GREEN SPOT > 93 PRIEST ROAD > NOTTINGHAM NH 03290-6204 > 603/942-8925 > > You will want to talk to Mike Cherim. > > Hope this helps, If you need any further info on the bios we use here > at FMG, contact me off list. > > Steven R. LaWarre > Grower > Frederik Meijer Gardens > 1000 E Beltline NE > Grand Rapids MI 49525 > (616)975-3175 > slawarre@meijergardens.org > Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:40:09 -0600 Subject: Re: Mealybug destroyers Most of the popular CP's that we grow can tolerate flooding for days on end. Could all this pesticide/alternative eradication techniques be irrelevant? I don't think you have to get rid of every one, just control the population so that the plant can recover. Sure, we'd want to be rid of every pest, but that's probably not practical and certainly not natural. The plants live in the wild and are capable of handling minor attacks and probably even have rudimentory defenses against minor attacks (hey, most of our poisons were derived or inspired from plants). Perhaps a side-by-side test between flooding and pesticides is in order with a control to which nothing is done to see which plant and it's compost (assuming live spagnum) fairs better. Grab a few mealybugs and purposefully infest each pot then apply your measures to each one - one - flood periodically, the other - use pesticides and the control - do nothing out of the ordinary (assume no infestation even though there is one). May the best plant win. Naturally you'll want to seperate these subjects from the main population... Anyone want to sacrifice three Sarr. for the purpose of "science" (curiosity)? Mike Susan Farrington wrote: > > Steve, > > Have you had luck using Crypts to eat mealybugs in Sarracenia?? I > experimented with this last summer, but wasn't sure they would work, > since so many of the mealybugs were INSIDE the Sarracenia > pitchers, and I feared the Crypts would end up being eaten by the > Sarracenia! I did put some on the plants, possibly not enough to be > effective, but did not see a lot of help from them. Eventually, I chose > the drowning method instead... I submerged all the potted Sarracenia > in large tubs of water overnight. It was a lot of fun watching the > mealybugs "pop" up to the surface of the water, seeking air, only to > meet their death between my waiting fingers! It did not eliminate > EVERY mealybug, but it certainly put a huge dent in the population, > and the plants seemed just fine after their overnight "flood." > > But I will try the crypts again if is likely to work... I, too, recommend > the Green Spot highly... we use their various critters extensively here > in the conservatories at the Missouri Botanical Garden. > > Susan ################### From: "arie cohen" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:11:09 Subject: Israel Carnivorous Plants Society
All members of the Carnivorous Plant Society of Israel
like to thank our society founder Dr. Danny Joel for all
his wonderful work with the society .
The society new chairman is Arie Cohen and our mail address would be
P.O.Box
504 Kiryat Gat 82104 Israel
and e-mail address arie@shalon.k-gat.k12.il
for some reson we can't send dirct msg. to the digest


Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

################### From: Robert Ziemer Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:25:30 -0800 Subject: re: Botanical Gardens Great idea! It would also be helpful if the CP FAQ included the Botanical Garden address, hours of operation, entry fee (if any), and Web URL. In addition to Botanical Gardens, public greenhouses (such as University facilities) might be included. For example, Humboldt State University in Arcata, California has a nice collection of CP (and about 1000 other plants in 187 families) that is open to the public during business hours (9-4 Monday-Friday) http://www.humboldt.edu/~biosci/greenhouse/grnhspg.htm Bob Ziemer Barry Meyers-Rice wrote: > For some reason, I never thought of posting an entry in the CP FAQ on > places people can see plants at Botanical Gardens. Any suggestions on Bot > Gardens that have CP? Some people are hungry for anything, so I'd like to > have suggestions from lots and lots of states. Please cc your suggestions > to me at bazza@sarracenia.com so I don't miss them in the listserve. ################### From: "mike wilder" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:01:45 -0000 Subject: re:the last word on cpn copying hello, in case it remains unclear, let me state a few things with which i believe everyone (including me) agrees: 1. harming the icps (financially or otherwise) is bad. 2. copyright laws generally serve an important purpose, and should be respected. 3. copying issues of the cpn without permission is illegal. given all of this, why do i stubbornly continue to make claims like 'if it's out of print, it's fair game'? to answer this, we'll have to take a step back. when i made my very first request for ipsg copies, it was because i had already contacted phil wilson and learned that most of the issues are completely out of print--er, i mean unavailable, or whatever. hence, i couldn't pay for the issues i wanted. i thought perhaps someone on the listserve could help me. since i was asking someone to do me a favor (viz. take the trouble to copy some issues), i tried to think of how i might be able to help them in return. i remembered that i had several duplicate issues (the real things, not photocopies) of the cpn that i could trade. it also occurred to me that someone might have had trouble getting older (unavailable) articles or issues of the cpn that they might need for study, and since i am blessed with the full set, i offered to make copies. make no mistake, this was an illegal offer, and it's true that since i was wanting to trade for something i needed, i stood to profit from my illegal action. i am not insensitive to the importance of copyright law, which is why i brought up the copyright issue in my very first post. i had thought that anyone reading my post would agree that what i was proposing was entirely innocuous. as we've seen, i was mistaken. now, i think the copyright law is important in a capitalist society because it serves to ensure that the creators of material are rewarded for their effort. so, how can i then think it is okay to flout this law in some cases? when something goes out of print, it is not possible to reward the creator by buying it from the publisher. for example, consider the tragedy/travesty that slack's second book is long out of print. i know there are people who would buy it (and thereby pay slack his money )if it were available. sadly though, it isn't available. in my opinion, one can walk into any library where his book is available, photocopy it in its entirety, and feel no shame. if and when the book is reprinted, i think the copier should buy it, but in the mean time, use the info. clearly here, i am drawing a distinction between what is ethical and what is legal. some people have wriiten that they believe the two are synonymous, and that if it's illegal to do something it is also unethical. i simply disagree. remember apartheid? slavery? any catholics out there will surely say that my legal use of abortion is not ethical. i don't want to debate these issues, i'm just pointing out that what is legal, is not always in my view ethical. okay, now to the cpn. if an issue is unavailable from the publisher, and someone needs that info, i think they can ethically copy it. there is no ability to pay the icps its money because it is unavailable. to put it another way, the icps can't lose money on something it doesn't have for sale. now, disagreement persists on 1. how many issues are actually unavailable, 2. and on how many libraries actually possess a set, and 3. on whether those libraries will loan them out via interlibrary loan. importantly, the legal question does not turn on any of these matters. it is illegal to copy issues without permission, even if it is impossible to get them anywhere. so these matters are only relevant if you, like me, distinguish between what is legal and what is ethical. 1. Back issues of almost all volumes are available from the ICPS. Those that are not available at this moment, WILL be made available in some form or other in the future. this is what david tells us. perhaps he has different information than i do. when i ordered all the issues from '94-'98 from the icps, i received 17, not 20 issues, and was told that 3 were unavailable. that means that 15% of the issues from that period are unavailable. that seems like a lot to me. when i bought all of the issues at the auction, joe mazrimas told me that 'many' of the issues are unavailable. so that's the information i'm acting on. 2. and 3. I suggest that those who wish to read the information in CPN do so at ( or through interlibrary loan, from ) their local library, even if that involves some effort. again, this is what david tells us. there are exactly 2 libraries in the country-sized state of california with a full set of the cpn, strybing and uc berkeley. neither will loan those through interlibrary loan. i suppose san diegans could hop into a ford 'earth killer' suv and drive up to the bay area to read them there. i hope they have good memories, though, since they won't be copying them! the huge state of texas has none. the only other library i know of is at the nybg. though they do loan some materials through interlibrary loan, they DO NOT loan periodicals through interlibrary loan. david, i really wish that you would have named a library which has a set of the cpn available and will loan them thru ill. so, after all of this, nothing constructive has been accomplished. so that this debate is not a complete waste of time, i'll volunteer to help the icps. i feel very lucky to have all of those cpn's, and i feel an obligation to share the info with anyone who needs it. if the icps is interested, i'd like to volunteer to be the 'state sanctioned' photocopier of out of print issues. when someone tries to purchase issues that are unavailable from the icps, their request could be forwarded to me, and i could copy the relevant issues. this way, i'd be happy because the info is getting spread around on demand, and not if and when the icps makes them available again, and the icps would be happy, because copyright law would be obeyed, and they would receive money for the relevant issues. let me know--mike wilder _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: john green Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:49:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Slaters and other Sarr preferences Maybe some Australians can help me with this. I was reading Gordon Cheers book (I think he's Australian) and he says that S. purpurea seems to have an affinity for "slaters." What is a "slater?" Also, he says that S. oreophila is the most gluttonous of all the Sarrs. I might agree with that, as my oreos feast on potato bugs (pill bugs, sow bugs, whatever you like to call them) especially, and seem to fill up quicker than all others, but I just assumed that might be due to an abundance of potato bugs in my garden. But I think my flavas are pretty hungry, too, and seem to eat their fair share of ladybugs :-( . What experience do others have as far as Sarracenia prey preferences? John "trying to change the subject" Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: kharper@energy.com.au Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:16:13 +1000 Subject: Flowering Brocchinia reducta ________________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail is solely for the use of the intended recipient and may contain information which is confidential or privileged. Unauthorised use of its contents is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately via return e-mail and then delete the original e-mail. ________________________________________________________________________________ Both of my two original Brocchinia reducta plants bought back in 1991 have finally decided to flower. These plants have produced numerous pups over the years but dredging through my CP books and journals last night I couldn't find anything specific covering how this plant should be encouraged to set seeds. The only reference that I could locate was as follows and doesn't provide me with a great deal of insight: "Small white flowers are borne on a solitary inflorescence that can reach 60 cm high but plants take many years to reach maturity. Seeds are numerous and flat". The two inflorescences on my plants are quite different. One scape resembles a female Nepenthes flower (only say 20 cm high) whilst the other is similar to a Drosera gigantea plant (about 50 cm tall and still growing). It would be appreciated if anyone can share with me their experience(s) in relation to self or cross-pollinating Brocchinia reducta. Regards, Ken Harper ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:03:01 +1100 Subject: Re: Slaters and other Sarr preferences Here in Tasmania, Australia, my S. purpureas eat mostly harlequin bugs... and a few wasps. S. flava, alata and leucophylla feed on flies early on (oct-dec) and blowflies and wasps in late summer and autumn. Autumn diet seems to be wasps more than anything. This leads me to another question: How does one discourage wasps from flocking around the water trays??? I have been stung a couple of times and I'm starting to find it annoying... :) Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:21:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Is that fly really edible? Dear List, > It is an amazing > world. People can be very selfish and 'expect' > everything that they do to be okay with everyone else. Yes, that is exactly the attitude I was referring when I mentioned about people becoming more arrogant. I guess this bug has even gotten to some CP'ers. :( Dave Evans ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:51:21 -0500 Subject: Re: U. pusilla? Dear List and Tim, > I unfortunately I don't > recall who I received this from, but they said it was a > flowering form of _U. subulata_. --snip-- > However, once I took a closer look, I wasn't so sure it was U. > subulata, it just looked a bit more attractive, though nothing I > could point out at the time. When I mentioned my doubt, the > grower was adamant it was U. subulata. >From Tim: > Regarding your utric question to the listserver, your plant does sound an > awful lot like u pusilla, including the length of the spur. I can't think > of too many other small, yellow-flowered utrics that are common in > cultivation, except maybe for U. nana. Well, a second flower has grown since the first and I can say that the first was not formed correctly. The bottom lip of the corolla didn't fully open. On the second flower, it did. What I found was that the bottom lip of the corolla is lilac colored, with the yellow "underneath" the lilac and red veins. Basically the color yellow was deepest at the center of the flower, becoming more whitish as you move to the edge. It's just amazing how much detail is packed onto these tiny flowers... In Taylor's _the Genus Utricularia_ the key to _Setiscapella_ it is mentioned that if the corolla is pink or lilac it's _U. physoceras_. But he also mentions red, yellow and white are all possible on _U. subulata_. There is one scale on the inflorescence before the first flower and there doesn't seem to be any between the flowers, not with regularity. The spur starts out very fat, but abruptly constricts about 1/6 of the way down and becomes very thin and ends in a point at just past the bottom of the corolla--Could this equal, "narrowly cylindrical"? The weird thing is, the flower looks just like what is shown for _U. pusilla_, but instead of three distinct lobes on the bottom lip there isn't much of angle to separate the lobes. I'm guessing it's just an odd ball _U. subulata_, but I would be interested in what others think. Dave Evans ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:04:32 +0930 Subject: various 1. Those who have headed their messages "last word on CPN back issues" must be extreme optimists. 2. In Australia "slaters" are called woodlice (I thought slater was a US term). They're the things that look like terrestial trilobites, and roll themselves into armoured balls. 3. Seeing this is an international listserve, there is a huge x Ventrata in the Darwin Botanical gardens. It's growing in a very large hanging container, it has at least a dozen vines which have grown the six feet to the top of the greenhouse and the plant has pushed the roofing up another foot. There would be something near a hundred pitchers on the plant. 4. We've been getting a lot of monsoonal rain lately. I was observing my N. maxima x ventricosa which has a long vine which has attached itself to a fishtail palm. If I'm not mistaken, the aerial pitchers tip forward when they get a little rain water in them. This shifts the plane of the peristome from 45 degrees to vertical, making it more difficult for more rain to get in. I was also impressed with the way the plant hung on tenaciously to the palm as both were lashed by rain squalls 30 to 40 knots. Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:26:32 +1100 Subject: D. lusitanicum and Neps in claymation Hi All D. lusitanicum viability is at least 6 years! I've had better germination rates on two year old seed than one year old stuff. After reading the bit on Pok-e-mon I dug through my video collection and pulled out the claymation series GOGS. It is about a family of cave people and... In one episode they get drunk, but instead of pulling the ring pulls on beer cans they are poping the lids on Neps. The old guy even goes for the yard glass (looks like N. stenophylla). A good laugh! Greg Bourke EDITOR/SEED BANK MANAGER for the Carnivorous Plant Society of New South Wales Check out the web page @ www.carnivorousplants.asn.au email the society @ carnivorousplantsnsw@hotmail.com My Photos @ http://photos.yahoo.com/sydneycarnivorous ################### From: Andrew Broome Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:44:09 +1300 Subject: Re: Slaters and other Sarr preferences John said... >Maybe some Australians can help me with this. While not an Australian, maybe I'll do... > What is a "slater?" In NZ, they're a common name for terrestrial isopods. Also known as 'woodlice'. I suspect they may be the same or similar to the critters you mention below. >.... my oreos feast on potato bugs (pill bugs, sow >bugs, whatever you like to call them).... > What experience do others have as far as Sarracenia prey preferences? All my Sarracenia catch a wide range of insects. The S. purps seem to pick up a lot of snails (which rot and pong). The S. psitts seem to catch very little at all. The upright Sarracenia seem to pick up mostly flys and the odd wasp. S. minor get a lot of ants, also do some of the others. Interestingly (to me anyway), my VFTs outdoor catch a lot of spiders - I guess because they tend to blunder about at night (the spiders, not the VFTs, thankfully). My non-tank grown Neps seem very good at attracting ants - I'm not sure if that's good thing or not. Good 'cause they kill pesky ants, bad 'cause I'm not sure they're not attacting the ants in the first place. Just my observations. Andrew@home. *NZKA 137, NAKA 5, AKA 07212, PNAS, NZCPS ... * Degeneracy can be fun, but it's hard to keep up * as a serious lifetime occupation. * Robert M. Pirsig (ZatAoMM) *Killies: Ducatis: Reptiles & Amphibians: Carnivorous Plants: ################### From: Hans Johnson Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:58:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Fictional) cp on tv Dearly listed, This weekend's episode of "Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World" features a huge carnivorous plant. Something like the "Madagascar Man-eating Plant" of legend. You may want to check www.thelostworldtv.com. Keep on growing, Hans Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:39:50 -0500 Subject: Mealybug predators Hello, Another good natural predator for mealybugs, aphids, and other insects, are green lacewing larvae, _Chrysopa carneia_. These predaceous insects are soft bodied and make excellent meals for hungry plants. Surprisingly they live long enough to lower harmful insect levels even inside Sarracenia pitchers! They will eat each other if other prey is not available so they are a short term cure. If you are buying crickets or other insects for food or IPM, these tasty treats should be added to your shopping list. Take care, Steven Stewart ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:12:33 -0500 Subject: Brocchinia reducta Hello Ken, I had my first Brocchinia reducta flower and set seed last August. They self pollinated in a cool, breezy area of my greenhouse. As soon as the capsules began to turn yellow, I collected them in paper and open plastic bags and placed them in a dry sunny location until they opened and released their seed. I sowed the first seed on the surface of moist long-fibered Sphagnum, in high humidity and the same temperature of the parent plant, 22C. days in shade and 18C. nights. The second sowing I placed in the same media but much warmer, 27C. days in shade and 22C. nights. The seed in the warm area germinated quickly, in14-30 days. I recently moved the seed from the cooler area to warmth and am just now getting germination. I hope this helps. Take care, Steven Stewart ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:47:30 EST Subject: Re: Slaters and other Sarr preferences << How does one discourage wasps from flocking around the water trays??? I have been stung a couple of times and I'm starting to find it annoying... :) Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia >> I have the same problem, and I agree its annoying. Even without water trays, wasps are attracted to water that seeps up to the surface of the bogs. I find my s. purpurea can catch a large number of wasps, especially in the late summer and begining of autumn. This is probably due to the fact that we are so dry here in Memphis, TN during that time, and they see it as an easy source of water. I have a swimming pool located just feet away from one of my bogs. A few wasps will be sipping water from the pool, and a few hundred will be sipping water from the bogs and the purpureas. You could try placing some plastic screening over the water trays to keep them from getting to the water, but seeing how many bees and wasps can be in my bog at one tme, it may be a test of futility. Michael Catalani ################### From: "Fabio D'Alessi" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1 17:14:13 MET Subject: D.regia closeups For those who might be interested in this, thanks to the help by Barry Meyers-Rice, I have made and scanned a few closeups of my _Drosera regia_ at 2X/4X. You can find them directly here: http://www.bio.unipd.it/sarrazins/temp/il1_50.jpg http://www.bio.unipd.it/sarrazins/temp/il2_35.jpg http://www.bio.unipd.it/sarrazins/temp/il3_28.jpg Quite interesting (and unnoticeable at naked eye) the smallest drops right over the surface of the leaf. Fabio ################### From: Jan Burger Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:29:05 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: D.regia closeups > For those who might be interested in this, > thanks to the help by Barry Meyers-Rice, I > have made and scanned a few closeups of my > _Drosera regia_ at 2X/4X. You can find them > directly here: Really great photos! John Burger. > Quite interesting (and unnoticeable at naked eye) > the smallest drops right over the surface of the > leaf. ...interesting. ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:29:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: CPN--a controlled substance Hey folks, So all this email about poaching CPs (I mean, poaching CPNs) has perhaps gotten folks to realize that Jan and I (and the rest of the ICPS crew) are helping to produce an addictive, controlled substance. So if you haven't joined the ICPS, you're missing out on your hot CPN issues, direct from our laboratories, full strength! Also, with grinning irony, I note that Mike Wilder, who raised the whole controversy in the first place, has an excellent article that will appear in CPN's March 2001 issue, on "Refined Terrarium" techniques. Off to meetings.... Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "Adao Pereira" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:26:52 -0000 Subject: Urgent! What CPs in Uganda? Hello to all!!! I need to know very fast what CPs grow in Uganda, specially rare ones! Please... anyone help me! Thanks a lot!! Miguel ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:23:44 -0800 Subject: Re: Dionaea/Drosera Trap >>Good observation! Ivan, you're indeed correct in your explanation of the functioning of the trigger hair/tentacle. (----) / >Ivan, I have place on paper the entire content of my talk in San Francisco with a couple additional details and a full description of all of the experiments (plus a couple more) and many illustration. It is a sizable manuscript which at this stage is still only in the French language. But I do intend to translate it into english shortly and will submit it to CPN for all of you guyes to read. Have the best fun experimenting with your plants, Laurent Legendre Hi Laurent and all, Thankyou kindly Laurent. You are way ahead of us in your experiments. I hereby nominate you for the Nobel Prize. I look forward to reading more of your many fascinating insights of VFT trap workings. It is good we have you to document all these findings in such an interesting way, since I and others are not so well organized. >>in the case of Dionaea, all of the bases of the tentacles (which heads are the small red dots on inner surface of the trap and the trigger hair which is indeed a deformed tentacle) are fused Neat! I get it now, what a glorious insight! The tentacles which were on Drosera are still present on Dionaea, but they are now all fused together into two rows to form the trap lobes, brilliant! This explains how the trap lobes work like tentacles. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:01:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Slaters and other Sarr preferences John, > >Maybe some Australians can help me with this. I was reading Gordon Cheers >book (I think he's Australian) and he says that S. purpurea seems to have an >affinity for "slaters." What is a "slater?" >Also, he says that S. oreophila is the most gluttonous of all the Sarrs. I >might agree with that, as my oreos feast on potato bugs (pill bugs, sow AFAIK slaters are a type of what you call "pill bugs". There is a close relation here in the UK called a wood louse - not surprisingly they congregate and presumably feed on rotting wood. To the untrained eye at least, slaters look identical to the wood louse except they do not roll up into a ball when threatened. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:00:53 +0000 Subject: Re: Slaters and other Sarr preferences Miguel, > >How does one discourage wasps from flocking around the water trays??? I >have been stung a couple of times and I'm starting to find it annoying... :) >Miguel de Salas > I've never had or heard of this problem. Are you sure they are not nesting close by? Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Christopher Richards" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:07:05 -0000 Subject: [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: john green Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:23:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: problems w/wasps (was:Slaters...) > << How does one discourage wasps from flocking around > the water trays??? I have been stung a couple of times > and I'm starting to find it annoying... :) > Miguel de Salas > > I have the same problem, and I agree its annoying. Even > without water trays, wasps are attracted to water that > seeps up to the surface of the bogs. I find my s. > purpurea can catch a large number of wasps, especially > in the late summer and begining of autumn... > Michael Catalani I've also had problems with yellowjackets (very mean, aggressive hornets) that are attracted to both water trays and my bog. Some years its worse than others, so I suspect they don't always nest in the same areas. S. purpurea doesn't seem to offer much help for me. They get caught more often by the taller pitchers, but then frequently chew their way out, leaving gaping holes in the sides, allowing other prey to escape. I've even seen them get caught repeatedly by the same pitcher, crawling out through the hole each time. If this summer is bad I might try hanging one of those plastic traps above my plants which hopefully will minimize the damage to the plants (actually, it'll probably just attract even more of them!). John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:33:00 EST Subject: Re: Is that fly really edible? In a message dated 2/13/01 6:44:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, dam7@cdc.gov writes: > Actually, I think he can. The US government hires contractors and pays them > a fee for photocopying scientific articles for government employees. > I would think, being the US government, they have either previously asked for permission to have their contractors make the copies, or else have blanket agreements in place with the various publishers to allow this..... Hamir the Hermit "If you get caught, don't tell them about me, The last one who did, well, we tied him to a tree, Out in the high desert by an ant hill, Haven't been back there since, guess he's swingin' there still." [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Kamil Pasek" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:01:34 +0100 Subject: Dr. L. Adamec: ALDROVANDA VESICULOSA FOR SALE ALDROVANDA VESICULOSA AND EUROPEAN AQUATIC UTRICULARIA SPECIES FOR SALE Institute of Botany in Trebon, Czech Republic, offers for sale: A) Aldrovanda vesiculosa turions for CP growers, scientific or Nature Conservation organizations, for cultivation or (re)introduction activities. The plants from East Poland are cultivated outdoors. They will be sent by post mail, as turions enclosed in a tiny PE tube, from November to May. A limited amount of turions from NE Romania is also available. Romanian plants are more robust and flower more often. Price: 5 USD (or 10 DEM)/turion + postage 6 USD (or 12 DEM); minimum order: 10 turions; any order over 50 turions: price 3 USD/turion (or 6 DEM). For the cultivation instructions see the paper by L. Adamec (1997): "How to grow Aldrovanda vesiculosa outdoors" in the special issue of CPN 26: 85-88. The instructions may be sent on request. B) Australian (sub)tropical Aldrovanda vesiculosa plants for indoor cultivation. As dependent on light conditions these plants can be red. Plants from an indoor culture of three Australian populations are available (they are the same in culture): a) Subtropical: East-coast Australia, S. of Sydney, NSW; b) Tropical: S. of Darwin, NT. c) Tropical: Kimberley, NW Australia, WA. The Australian plants grow over the whole year at temperatures above 18 oC and do not form turions. At lower temperatures, they form weakly dormant turions. In temperate regions, they may also be grown outdoors over summer season. Apical segments ca. 4 cm long are sent by post mail in plastic vials or tubes, from March to November, when outdoor temperature is above 5 oC. For the cultivation conditions see the paper by L. Adamec (1999): "The biology and cultivation of red Australian Aldrovanda vesiculosa" in CPN 28(4): 128-132. Price: 8 USD (or 16 DEM)/plant + postage 6 USD (or 12 DEM); minimum order (regardless of the populations): 4 plants. C) Turions of European temperate aquatic Utricularia species for outdoor cultivation: U. australis, U. vulgaris, U. minor, U. bremii, U. intermedia, U. ochroleuca. Turions are sent by post mail in tiny PE tubes, from November to June. Price: 2 USD (or 4 DEM)/turion + postage 6 USD (or 12 DM); minimum order (regardless of the species): 10 turions. D) Plants or dormant turions of Utricularia dimorphanta. U. dimorphanta is an aquatic Japanese endemic species, formerly growing on the whole Honshu island (subtropical to warm temperate climate), but is critically endangered recently. Growing of this species is the same as that of Australian Aldrovanda. However, it prefers more shade and temperatures >20 oC. Apical segments ca. 4 cm long or turions are sent by post mail in plastic vials or tubes, at above zero temperatures for the whole year. Price: 8 USD (or 16 DEM)/plant or turion + postage 6 USD (or 12 DEM). Minimum order: 4 plants or turions. Limited amount of this species is available. Invoice will be sent by the Institute of Botany. Payment should be realised as direct sending the due sum in cash, in registered letter to the below address. Checks or cards are not acceptable. Payment in advance, prior to sending the plants is required. Contact address: Lubomir ADAMEC Institute of Botany, Dukelska 135, CZ-379 82 TREBON, Czech Republic tel.+420-333-721156; fax -721136; E-mail adamec@butbn.cas.cz ............................................ Dr. Lubomir ADAMEC Institute of Botany AS CR Section of Plant Ecology Dukelska 135 CZ-379 82 TREBON, Czech Republic tel.+420-333-721156; fax -721136 ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:09:03 -0500 Subject: Utricularia in Brocchinia reducta? Dear List, I was wondering, what species of _Utricularia_, besides for _U. humboldtii_, can be cultivated in _Brocchinia reducta_? My flowering _U. asplundii_ sent out some aerial shoots that look like they would be useful for moving from vase to vase (vase of a bromeliad that is) if they were a bit longer... What have people tried? Any failures? Dave Evans ################### From: JDPDX@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:13:16 EST Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey << What experience do others have as far as Sarracenia prey preferences? >> Here in the Pacific Northwest I would have to give the glutton award to Sarracenia alata. I've often had children dissect pitcher plant leaves and the usual response is "Oh wierd, yuck etc... When they cut open an alata leaf I've had kids scream and drop the leaf from the sheer volume of insects. The prey usually consists of Yellow Jacket wasps, Green and Blue Bottle flys, moths, and Hoverflys. Jeff Portland, OR ################### From: John Kneen Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:02:09 +0200 Subject: Mantis vs. Mealybugs To continue the mealybug eradication debate: A few years back, my collection was in a very bad state, with mealybugs and scale insects etc. Not much worked to get rid of them for more than a short period of time - until some praying mantis's took up residence in the greenhouse. When the mantids are young (which happens to be around the time of my mealybug infestations) they seem to take up residence in and around many of the sarras and neps - fishing for bugs and eating mealy bugs. I've never seen one meet its demise by plant, although when they approach adulthood they do seem to acquire a taste for other mantids. The net result : no mealy bugs, and a self-regulating mantis population. I recently saw a documentary on one of the South African TV channels (a BBC documentary?) on the symbiotic relationship between some insects and CPs, and I definitely think this is one for the books... regards John Kneen ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:11:59 +0000 Subject: Urgent! What CPs in ... L:.*UG Dear Miguel, > I need to know very fast what CPs grow in Uganda, specially rare ones! > Please... anyone help me! L:.*UG yields (by the exhaustively described, comparatively fast, method; see archives): _Aldrovanda vesiculosa_ L. _Drosera burkeana_ Planch. _Drosera indica_ L. _Drosera madagascariensis_ DC. _Utricularia andongensis_ Welw. ex Hiern. _Utricularia appendiculata_ E.A.Bruce _Utricularia arenaria_ A.DC. _Utricularia australis_ R.Br. _Utricularia benjaminiana_ Oliv. _Utricularia cymbantha_ Welw. ex Oliv. _Utricularia firmula_ Welw. ex Oliv. _Utricularia foveolata_ Edgew. _Utricularia inflexa_ Forsk. _Utricularia livida_ E.Mey. _Utricularia pentadactyla_ P.Taylor _Utricularia pubescens_ Sm. _Utricularia reflexa_ Oliv. _Utricularia stellaris_ L.f. _Utricularia striatula_ Sm. _Utricularia subulata_ L. _Utricularia tortilis_ Welw. ex Oliv. Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:47:54 +0000 Subject: fangs and hooks and movement Dear Ivan et al., > I can imagine a plant similar to Tryphyophyllum The first one is an "i": _Tr*i*phyophyllum_. > having tendrils, sans pitchers, instead of the > pair of grasping hooks at the leaf tips. A plant such as this would look > much like Nepenthes, don't you think? Well, except for the missing pitchers, of course. > Looking at a botanical drawing of > Tryphyophyllum, the hooks appear to be on a stalk. Perhaps such a stalk > elongated and became a tendril? This is very well possible. The _Nepenthes_ tendril and the _Triphyophyllum_ hook stalk are probably homologous organs. > Here is something curious, the fangs of > N. bicalcarata are like hooks. Jan, you are the undisputed Tryphyophyllum > expert, are the fangs of N. bicalcarata and hooks of Tryphyophyllum at > all analogous in comparative architecture? The fangs of _N. bicalcarata_ are outgrowths of the peristome, a tissue that is not well understood (at least by me, see previous message). The hooks of _Triphyophyllum_ are more clearly lateral leaf lobes (comparable to pinnae). The lateral position of both fangs and hooks does indicate homology to a certain degree. The theory (not really expressed but +/- insinuated in your message) that _N. bicalcarata_ is a representative of a primitive stage in _Nepenthes_ evolution (it has domatia for ants and it is the only species with distinct fangs) is indeed interesting. But why do the western species (_N. madagascariensis, masoalensis, pervillei, distillatoria_) not show these features? The western species are usually regarded as more primitive than the rest of the genus. > but I do not believe the mechanics behind the > closure is fundamentally different. This is but another feature > (such as style movement) not discernable in herbarium material:-) Not in herbarium material but by physiological studies. Compare the work published by Sibaoka on _Aldrovanda_ and the sensible (i.e. not the childish, simple hinge-type) literature written on _Dionaea_ movement , and you will see the quite dramatic difference both in structure and function. This does of course not deny that both A & D have superficially similar snap traps but they apparently *work* in a quite fundamentally different way (turgor movement vs. growth). At least the mechanism of movement is not more different between _Drosera_ and either of the snap traps. If you reduce the data to the hard facts, the only feature in the trapping mechanism that reliably distinguishes A & D from _Drosera_ is the lack of mucilage, and not a common, derived feature (synapomorphy). > This pivoting action seems to stimulate tentacle movement. Think > about that. This is more evidance that the trigger hair in Dionaea > is a modified sundew tentacle. Or vice versa. I am still not convinced that _Drosera_ is more primitive. This does not mean that I advocate the opposite theory but I just fail to see compelling evidence for either variant. Kind regards Jan ################### From: n.mass.destructor@usa.net Date: 15 Feb 2001 06:53:04 MST Subject: Byblis liniflora wanted Hello list, I started growing b. liniflora last september, but unfortunatly they didn't flower and were growing very slow. Two died away in the winter and the last was just starting to grow when I was away for the weekend and my mother forgot to water it so it died away too. Does anyone have some seeds of B. liniflora? Greeting Niels The Netherlands Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:56:00 -0800 Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey Hello all, << What experience do others have as far as Sarracenia prey preferences? >> My two cents worth on this topic. My Sarrs basically 'eat' whatever falls into the pitchers. Two years ago, wasps were the primary source of food, due to a local outbreak. This past summer, almost all of the Sarrs and Darlingtonia were filling up on sowbugs (isopods) to the point of overflowing. As other people have mentioned, my S.psitticina and psit hybrids rarely seem to capture much of anything. I have noticed that the preferred prey changes over the course of the lifespan of the pitcher. At first, a lot of my Sarrs catch wasps, sowbugs and other insects attracted to the nectar. However, as the pitchers fill up and the insects start to decompose, I find they start attracting other creatures like flies and carrion beetles. By far I would have to say the most gluttonous Sarr is S.purpurea. Those nice big pitchers hold a lot of dead insects! Happy growing, Chris -- Chris Teichreb http://www.geocities.com/cteichreb ("Coastal Carnivores", my homepage) http://www.geocities.com/VCPC2000 (Vancouver Carnivorous Plant Club) ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:55:05 -0500 Subject: copyrighted material >I would think, being the US government, they have either previously >asked for permission to have their contractors make the copies, or >else have blanket agreements in place with the various publishers to >allow this..... The US government hasn't asked permission and it doesn't have blanket agreements because it's not required. People have mistakenly concluded that all copyrighted material requires permission before you can photocopy it. ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:58:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: New U. calycifida clone! Hey Folks, As you may know, I'm a fiend for Utricularia. I'm quite fond of U. calycifida. For a while now I've been making crosses with U. calycifida cultivars. After evaluating about 100 new crosses, I've observed the following: 1)I usually get something which looks very much like either the seed or pollen parent. Intermediacy is *not* the rule. 2)It seems leaf pigmentation is not too closely tied to flower pigmentation. Crossing a plant with colorful flowers and purple-veined leaves with a white-flowered, un-veined plant can produce a plant with white flowers but purple-veined leaves. 3)Most "new" looking crosses are forgettable, nasty things with tiny flowers or slow growth characters. 4)Some crosses die immediately after flowering. Dumb. HOWEVER, I am very pleased with one of my crosses. I'm going to watch its growth characteristics to see if it stays vigorous. It is a cross of the spotted U.calycifida 'Mrs. Marsh' and the white flowered U. calycifida 'Lavinia Whateley'. It has inherited spots from 'Mrs. Marsh', but intensified them significantly. Meanwhile, it has gotten a bigger flower form, presumably from 'Lavinia Whateley.' Finally, the whole flower is suffused in lilac. Maybe something recessive in 'Mrs. Marsh'? Anyway, photos are at: New-cross from front: http://www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ucaly08.jpg New-cross from side: http://www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ucaly09.jpg Photos of the proud parents: Mrs. Marsh: http://www.sarracenia.com/photos1/ucaly03.jpg Lavinia Whateley: http://www.sarracenia.com/photos1/ucaly07.jpg I'd like to hear what you think of my latest creation! Later Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:26:22 +0000 Subject: Drosera pusilla/CPN Question Seeing the postings about U. pusilla reminds me that many years a CP enthusiast offered me Drosera pusilla, when he had managed to bulk it up - unfortunately that never happened. Looking at the CP database, if I understand it correctly, the plant should be called Drosera biflora. Does anyone have this in cultivation? (It's a tiny red South American sticky thing that might excite Fernando). By the way, when someone submits an article to CPN for publication, what rights do they retain over it by way of ownership and copyright? NigelH ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:07:26 +0000 Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey Hi all, >Here in the Pacific Northwest I would have to give the glutton award to >Sarracenia alata. I've often had children dissect pitcher plant leaves >and the usual response is "Oh wierd, yuck etc... When they cut open an >alata leaf I've had kids scream and drop the leaf from the sheer volume >of insects. > >The prey usually consists of Yellow Jacket wasps, Green and Blue Bottle >flys, moths, and Hoverflys. > On the same subject, one of the things I noticed while visiting sites with S. leucophylla last fall was the quantity of love bugs that these plants capture. In fact I first noticed with my nose since the stench from so many dead bugs was overpowering. At first I thought there must be a recently dead animal nearby but the same stench was at the next site, a few miles down the road. I had noticed the amount of these bugs that are caught by s. leucophylla on previous visits but this time it really impressed me. Perhaps it was the unique odour! Every pitcher still capable of catching anything was filled almost to the brim with these bugs - quite a sight! It occurred to me that perhaps the larger fall pitchers of this species are produced specifically to take advantage of this "crop". Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:18:13 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey Hmmm - I guess then it would be a bad idea to gorge plants cultivated inside then. I've got some leucophyllas on order and was wondering just how much to feed these things. I had some purpureas the last time I was into CP and noticed a faint stench, but it was largely masked by the nectar smell from the trap rim. I'll know better to limit the feeding. I wonder if the plant even utilizes all those insects or if they just sit and stagnate. Strangly enough - the flowers smelled pretty bad too. I'm curious what bug the flowers are trying to attract? Phil Wilson wrote: > > Hi all, > > >Here in the Pacific Northwest I would have to give the glutton award to > >Sarracenia alata. I've often had children dissect pitcher plant leaves and > >the usual response is "Oh wierd, yuck etc... When they cut open an alata > >leaf I've had kids scream and drop the leaf from the sheer volume of insects. > > > >The prey usually consists of Yellow Jacket wasps, Green and Blue Bottle flys, > >moths, and Hoverflys. > > > On the same subject, one of the things I noticed while visiting sites > with S. leucophylla last fall was the quantity of love bugs that these > plants capture. In fact I first noticed with my nose since the stench > from so many dead bugs was overpowering. At first I thought there must > be a recently dead animal nearby but the same stench was at the next > site, a few miles down the road. > > I had noticed the amount of these bugs that are caught by s. leucophylla > on previous visits but this time it really impressed me. Perhaps it was > the unique odour! > > Every pitcher still capable of catching anything was filled almost to > the brim with these bugs - quite a sight! It occurred to me that perhaps > the larger fall pitchers of this species are produced specifically to > take advantage of this "crop". > Phil Wilson > Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk > Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Andrew Bate Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:23:26 +0000 Subject: Cephalotus 'giant form' available in the UK/Europe? Hi, Does anyone have the giant form of Cephalotus available for sale in the UK or Europe? Please email me privately if you can help. Thanks, Andrew -- andrew@cpuk.org.uk | A UK Specific Guide http://www.cpuk.org.uk | to Carnivorous Plant Resources ################### From: john green Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:50:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Sarracenia prey Michael Vanecek said: > I wonder if the plant even utilizes all those insects > or if they just sit and stagnate. This is something I've wondered about, too. My plants catch so many bugs they can't possibly benefit from them all. All the books say there is digestive fluid at the bottom of the pitchers and that the level of fluid rises as bugs are caught. I don't see this happening with my plants. In fact, I see very little fluid (if any) at the bottom when I pull the lid back and look down into them. Do others see the level of digestive fluid rising with the bugs? When I cut open a full pitcher, it appears that bugs nearer to the bottom are more decomposed, so I assume that somehow they are being used by the plants, but I've suspected (based on my own experience) that the notion of the fluid level rising is a myth. I've never observed Sarrs in their native habitat, and I grow them in an environment that is not very humid. If others are seeing rising levels of digestive fluid, maybe this is why I don't? John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:03:40 +0000 Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey > >Hmmm - I guess then it would be a bad idea to gorge plants cultivated >inside then. I've got some leucophyllas on order and was wondering just >how much to feed these things. I had some purpureas the last time I was >into CP and noticed a faint stench, but it was largely masked by the >nectar smell from the trap rim. I'll know better to limit the feeding. I >wonder if the plant even utilizes all those insects or if they just sit >and stagnate. Strangly enough - the flowers smelled pretty bad too. I'm >curious what bug the flowers are trying to attract? > This was definitely more than a feint smell. I reckon they could probably smell these ones back in Mobile! The fact that many of the bugs were obviously rotting indicates that the plants probably did not utilise everything they caught, though I also suspect that absorption of nutrients from trapped insects can occur over a long period, probably until the pitcher itself dies or is burnt off. Also I cannot tell if this is a regular thing that happens each year or just a one-off. I have certainly seen S. leucophylla pitchers with this sort of quantity of insects caught before but without the smell. Then again my trip last time was a few weeks later than before - certainly this is long enough for decomposition to have taken place. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:19:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey I suspect rain contributes much to the level. I've noticed as the flava trumpets mature they lean back a little, allowing a little rain in. The purpureas are wide open to rain. Additionaly, with water levels high in the Spring due to seasonal rains, perhaps with a little flooding of the rhizomes the plant is also stimulated to fill their traps too. I covet the person who lives by a bog who can observe this on a seasonal basis and come up with stronger solutions... I can imagine that it's pretty hard to perfectly mimic all the paterns of a natural bog including water levels, temperatures, pests, food, love-bugs, etc even in a backyard tank. Mike john green wrote: > > Michael Vanecek said: > > I wonder if the plant even utilizes all those insects > > or if they just sit and stagnate. > > This is something I've wondered about, too. My plants catch so many bugs > they can't possibly benefit from them all. All the books say there is > digestive fluid at the bottom of the pitchers and that the level of fluid > rises as bugs are caught. I don't see this happening with my plants. In > fact, I see very little fluid (if any) at the bottom when I pull the lid > back and look down into them. Do others see the level of digestive fluid > rising with the bugs? When I cut open a full pitcher, it appears that bugs > nearer to the bottom are more decomposed, so I assume that somehow they are > being used by the plants, but I've suspected (based on my own experience) > that the notion of the fluid level rising is a myth. I've never observed > Sarrs in their native habitat, and I grow them in an environment that is not > very humid. If others are seeing rising levels of digestive fluid, maybe > this is why I don't? > > John Green > Salt Lake City, Utah > http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: john green Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:50:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Sarracenia prey Michael Vanecek writes: > I suspect rain contributes much to the level. I've noticed > as the flava trumpets mature they lean back a little, > allowing a little rain in. The purpureas are wide open to > rain. Additionaly, with water levels high in the Spring > due to seasonal rains, perhaps with a little flooding of > the rhizomes the plant is also stimulated to fill their I guess that makes sense. I'd always assumed that only purps took advantage of rain. I've also noticed that flavas in particular lean back, but they often end up on the ground after filling up with much water. > traps too. I covet the person who lives by a bog who can > observe this on a seasonal basis and come up with stronger > solutions... I, too, covet those of you who live near bogs. No wonder Bob Hanrahan can come up with such great plants when he actually grows them in a field! (Now everyone admit it, this is so much more fun than complaining about copyright laws ) John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:11:31 +1100 Subject: RE: Sarracenia prey Dear John, >This is something I've wondered about, too. My plants catch so many bugs >they can't possibly benefit from them all. All the books say there is >digestive fluid at the bottom of the pitchers and that the level of fluid >rises as bugs are caught. I don't see this happening with my plants. In >fact, I see very little fluid (if any) at the bottom when I pull the lid >back and look down into them. Do others see the level of digestive fluid >rising with the bugs? When I cut open a full pitcher, it appears that bugs >nearer to the bottom are more decomposed, so I assume that somehow they are >being used by the plants, but I've suspected (based on my own experience) >that the notion of the fluid level rising is a myth. I've never observed >Sarrs in their native habitat, and I grow them in an environment that is not >very humid. If others are seeing rising levels of digestive fluid, maybe >this is why I don't? I have noticed in Sarracenia flava growing outside in an artificial bog that early spring pitchers (nice, large and showy) fill up only slowly with early spring insects (mostly small to medium size flies). As this happens, looking down the tube, one can see the level of digestive juices catching up with the prey. One day a fly is caught, but above the juices, and the next day or two days later, although the fly is in the same spot (looking on the side of the pitcher, against the light, shows this), the fluid is above it. A couple of weeks later, I was surprised how far up the tube the prey and fluid had travelled, as looking down from the top makes distances deceptive. Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:35:45 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey Perhaps an indelible marker and a bright spotlight can help keep track of the water level - just shine the spotlight through the side of the trap and looking through the other side, place a mark and a date at the current water level and come back to see if the level has changed with the addition of bugs. It'd be one of several interesting experiments for a highschool class (isn't there a teacher out there somewhere?). Mike > I have noticed in Sarracenia flava growing outside in an artificial bog > that early spring pitchers (nice, large and showy) fill up only slowly with > early spring insects (mostly small to medium size flies). As this happens, > looking down the tube, one can see the level of digestive juices catching > up with the prey. One day a fly is caught, but above the juices, and the > next day or two days later, although the fly is in the same spot (looking > on the side of the pitcher, against the light, shows this), the fluid is > above it. A couple of weeks later, I was surprised how far up the tube the > prey and fluid had travelled, as looking down from the top makes distances > deceptive. > > Cheers! > Miguel de Salas > > School of Plant Science > University of Tasmania > GPO Box 252-55 > Hobart > TAS 7001 > Australia ################### From: Robert L Hanrahan Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:06:08 -0500 Subject: Fw: Sarracenia "Adrian Slack" Photo's Hello Gang, In response to a few inquires that I have received concerning the Adrian Slack hybrid (featured on the March cover of CPN), I can only say that it is going to go into TC propagation this spring. So, it's going to be a while (next year) before it will be available. Sorry, but that's the nature of plants... I also mentioned that the cover photo is a little washed out and I could send them a scanned photo via e-mail. They asked about any other pitcher plants that I had in production. I told them that two other neat and beautiful hybrids are now in TC production and will be available later this year. I mentioned that I would like to receive their comments on another hybrid and would include it with the selection. So far, the plant labeled as "minor surprise" (for now) seems to be a big hit. If anyone on this list would like to receive the photo selection, just send me a private e-mail message and I will comply in due time. BCNU/Bob Hanrahan ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:28:39 EST Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey In a message dated 2/15/01 1:55:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, thegreens13@juno.com writes: > This is something I've wondered about, too. My plants catch so many bugs > they can't possibly benefit from them all. All the books say there is > digestive fluid at the bottom of the pitchers and that the level of fluid > rises as bugs are caught. I don't see this happening with my plants. In > fact, I see very little fluid (if any) at the bottom when I pull the lid > back and look down into them. Do others see the level of digestive fluid > rising with the bugs? When I cut open a full pitcher, it appears that bugs > nearer to the bottom are more decomposed, so I assume that somehow they are > being used by the plants, but I've suspected (based on my own experience) > that the notion of the fluid level rising is a myth. I've never observed > Sarrs in their native habitat, and I grow them in an environment that is not > very humid. If others are seeing rising levels of digestive fluid, maybe > this is why I don't? > Not being up to date on all the scientific literature, perhaps the following is an obviously stupid question. But is it possible that, by trapping so many bugs, even if undigested before the leaf dies, this acts as a nutrient reservoir for later absorption by the root system? Certainly as the leaf and its contents rot away, nutrients would leach out onto the rhizome and roots.....(At least in nature where there aren't any overly attentive keepers trimming away the deadwood every winter) Hamir the Hermit "If you get caught, don't tell them about me, The last one who did, well, we tied him to a tree, Out in the high desert by an ant hill, Haven't been back there since, guess he's swingin' there still." [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:02:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey >From Plant Taxonomy, I learned Sarracenia flowers were of an ancestral type of flower such as Magnolia and bearing a musky odor. Flowers with a musky odor are usually pollinated by beetles, sweet ones by bees/Lepidoptera/birds/mammals, foetid ones by flies. That's what I learned. Has anyone actually examined what pollinates their Sarracenias? The thing that strikes me about the traps catching so many insects is that, if prey is so easily available then maybe the plants are evolving to become more efficient in utilizing the resource. Maybe they're getting larger to be able to handle the supply and we'll have N. rajah or merilliana sized Sarracenias in a few million years. Too bad we won't be there to grow and trade them. Michael Manna >From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey >Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:35:15 -0800 (PST) > >In a message dated 2/15/01 1:55:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, >thegreens13@juno.com writes: > > > This is something I've wondered about, too. My plants catch so >many bugs > they can't possibly benefit from them all. All the >books say there is > digestive fluid at the bottom of the pitchers >and that the level of fluid > rises as bugs are caught. I don't see >this happening with my plants. In > fact, I see very little fluid >(if any) at the bottom when I pull the lid > back and look down into >them. Do others see the level of digestive fluid > rising with the >bugs? When I cut open a full pitcher, it appears that bugs > nearer >to the bottom are more decomposed, so I assume that somehow they are > > being used by the plants, but I've suspected (based on my own >experience) > that the notion of the fluid level rising is a myth. >I've never observed > Sarrs in their native habitat, and I grow them >in an environment that is not > very humid. If others are seeing >rising levels of digestive fluid, maybe > this is why I don't? > > >Not being up to date on all the scientific literature, perhaps the >following is an obviously stupid question. But is it possible that, >by trapping so many bugs, even if undigested before the leaf dies, >this acts as a nutrient reservoir for later absorption by the root >system? Certainly as the leaf and its contents rot away, nutrients >would leach out onto the rhizome and roots.....(At least in nature >where there aren't any overly attentive keepers trimming away the >deadwood every winter) > >Hamir the Hermit > >"If you get caught, don't tell them about me, The last one who did, >well, we tied him to a tree, Out in the high desert by an ant hill, >Haven't been back there since, guess he's swingin' there still." > >[HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:19:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey/blooms If they don't have traps at the time that they bloom in order to not kill their pollinators, do they in fact eat a different insect than the pollinator? Is the odor of the trap different than that of the bloom? Wayne ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:59:02 +0000 Subject: copyrights Dear Nigel, > By the way, when someone submits an article to CPN for publication, > what rights do they retain over it by way of ownership and copyright? In the latest revision of our Instructions to Authors (to be published in the next March issue of CPN), we have clarified exactly this topic: "All material submitted for publication must be original and unpublished, and must be accompanied by a statement signed by all corresponding authors that the copyright of the manuscript (mention the title!) is transferred to the International Carnivorous Plant Society" Since we do not have such copyright transfer statements for the articles published in CPN so far, the authors of earlier CPN articles (NB: *only* the authors!) are essentially free to do with their material (only their *own* material, i.e. not whole CPN issues!) what they want. The ICPS does only reserve the right to reprint CPN issues (because the ICPS is the copyright holder of CPN) without asking each contributing author. If someone else asks us for permission to reprint a given, pre-2001 article, we usually check this with the authors (if they are within reach). Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:03:37 +0000 Subject: ED comment Dear Bob, > In response to a few inquires that I have received concerning the > Adrian Slack hybrid (featured on the March cover of CPN), It is featured on the December 2000 cover of CPN. Do not expect a repetition in March 2001 (although I cannot exclude a printing error yet!). Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:01:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia Seed Dear Phil, > I'd be happy to swap for plants or seeds, depending what you have of > course. I've learned my lesson now about sending seeds (or anything > else) through the US postal system. Are you interested in _Utricularlia asplundii_? It's not as weedy as _U. alpina_, only grow one leaf per "rosette". > How are the tubers I sent growing? Most of mine are up again though many > are only just surfacing now. They tend to grow late for me and I prefer > it this way as they get more of the spring to grow in. Thank's for asking. They are finally up! The _D. peltata_ came up right away, but _D. stolonifera_ waited until I placed it on a cold window still a couple weeks back. Oddly, one of them, the _D. s. subsp. porrecta_ formed a another tuber and then a shoot! Well, these plants (bulbous and tuberous Drosera) are proving to be easier under lights than I ever suspected. I used to think it be futile to cultivate these winter growers inside, and a greenhouse or at least a window sill greenhouse was needed to provide an authantic winter. So far, _D. menziesii_ from a trade last year and _D. stolonifera stolonifera_ from the ICPS SB are up and growing. The D. stolonifera have been very small for the last three years. I had thought that these plants were delayed seed germinated. Wrong! They are super small rosettes that have been going dormant and reappearing the same exact spot year after year. Well, I decided to spray them with fertilizer and they have been getting bigger and greener (the traps are redder too). Dave Evans ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:16:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Sarracenia prey > But is it possible that, >by trapping so many bugs, even if undigested before the leaf dies, >this acts as a nutrient reservoir for later absorption by the root >system? Certainly as the leaf and its contents rot away, nutrients >would leach out onto the rhizome and roots.....(At least in nature >where there aren't any overly attentive keepers trimming away the >deadwood every winter) If you look closely at the lower sections of the leaf, you find in most plants that they survive while the upper portions have died back. I think the contents continue to feed the plant during the winter, albeit at a much slower rate, and that the overwintering leaf provides the plant with a boost in early spring as new leaves are produced and active growth increases. David Atlanta ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:19:31 -0500 Subject: RE: Sarracenia prey/blooms >If they don't have traps at the time that they bloom in order to not >kill their pollinators, do they in fact eat a different insect than the >pollinator? Is the odor of the trap different than that of the bloom? The pollinators for the large upright Sarracenia in my yard are those great big black bees (Bombus)that show up in Spring. Occassionally, a pitcher will catch them. While some die in the tube, others eat their way out and leave a rather unsightly hole halfway up the pitcher. David Atlanta ################### From: Robert Ziemer Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:02:42 -0800 Subject: Re: Sarracenia prey; a teacher's perspective This discussion has timely relevance for me. Yesterday, I was captured by a local science teacher to give a lecture/demonstration about carnivorous plants to his seven 7th-grade science classes (yes, 7 consecutive classes in one day, each with about 30 students). To keep the pre-teen students interested, I brought in a bunch of potted CPs and about 250 Sarracenia * willisii pitchers. This is a good plant for this time of year in northern California because the pitchers are large and are still functioning (e.g. have not dried-up). At the end of the class, I had the 12-year-old students cut the pitchers longitudinally and describe what they discovered. Jeff is absolutely correct. There was a universal screaming, with the predominant words ranging from eeeuuuu to yuck. For the record, based on about 200 disections, the smelly contents of these pitchers were about 90% sowbugs (isopods), an occasional snail, grub, and earthworm, and a huge runny mess of unidentifiable yucky stuff. --Bob Ziemer-- Michael Vanecek wrote: >It'd be one of several interesting experiments for >a highschool class (isn't there a teacher out there >somewhere?). Jeff wrote: >Here in the Pacific Northwest I would have to give the glutton award to >Sarracenia alata. I've often had children dissect pitcher plant leaves and >the usual response is "Oh wierd, yuck etc... When they cut open an alata >leaf I've had kids scream and drop the leaf from the sheer volume of insects. ################### From: Frank Breil Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:01:52 -0800 Subject: CP's in Japan I will be in Tokyo and Kyoto in May. Any suggestions about where I can see and/or buy some CP's while I am there. I will be travelling around some as well. Thanks. Frank ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:19:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Sterile Nepenthes Hybrids Dear Rob, This is a very interesting subject. > Charles just wrote and mentioned that passage in his book, and he pointed > out that he was certainly _not_ referring to Nepenthes in that instance, but > plants in general so your interpretation is quite correct. Thanks for asking Charles and posting to the list. It was great meeting everyone in California. I had a chance to speak with Charles and I'm really looking forward to his next book, covering the Sumatran Nepenthes. > Charlie also mentioned that to the best of his knowledge no-one has ever > succeeded in making a cross involving N. pervillei. I didn't know this and > am wondering why it should be. Perhaps it doesn't flower readily in > cultivation, or perhaps it has something to do with the fact that it has > been geographically isolated from all other Nepenthes for so long. Can > anyone can shed light on this? Has anyone reading this had a specimen > flower and _failed_ to cross it? This has interested me enough that I'm going acquire these two species (N. pervillei & N. distillatoria), even though space is limited and they may never even flower for me... > There are a bunch of mature N. distillatoria growing about an hours drive > from here. They almost always seem to be in flower, so if anyone has some > spare pollen they can send, I'll sally forth with a paintbrush and some > stockings (which always attracts curious stares from the local villagers!). > Any resultant seed will be shared of course. Rob, it will soon be spring here in New Jersey. Hopefully a number of highlanders will flower again this year. So far, I have had much better luck flowering highland Nepenthes. In fact, I've never had a lowland species flower even though they get seasons just like the highlanders and are allowed more room... Well, if I get some fresh pollen I'll be sure to send some your way. One question though, are those N. distillatoria growing wild or is someone cultivating them? I have this image of a Nepenthes hedge, in my mind, with flower spikes growing forth all over it. Dave Evans ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:28:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Dumb Question No. 1 > On trips to Canada, I have seen Sarracenia purpurea that were literally > buried in Sphagnum. Only the opening and lip of the pitcher were showing. I > suppose that these plants reseed themselves so often that they can afford to > become buried in Sphagnum and still carry on a healthy population. Actually, these plants are not being killed by the Sphagnum, though I suppose a few might be. Enough light pentrates to the leaves right through the moss. S. psittacina often grows "buried" among other plants as well, but does not seem to prefer Sphagnum as much as S.purpurea. Dave Evans ################### From: JWi5770869@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 03:45:00 EST Subject: Botanical Gardens In a message dated 13/02/01 04:48:13 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > Gardens that have CP? Some people are hungry for anything, so I'd like to > have suggestions from lots and lots of states. Please cc your suggestions > to me at bazza@sarracenia.com so I don't miss them in the listserve. > > Cheers > > Barry > Dear All, Edinburgh (Scotland) Botanical gardens has a small collection of CP's.Not worth travelling for, but if you're in the area then they're OK to have a look at.They have a sickly collection of Sarracenias, but an impressive array of Neps (well,impressive for the UK!)and one of the biggest U. Reniformis that I've ever seen . I get the impression that whoever the curator is doesn't know how to care for these plants properly. They do have an impressive and well looked after collection of alpines though. All the best John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:24:03 -0000 Subject: Re: CITES and Nepenthes seed? Hi Nigel Nice to see you on an unedited list!!! >So the rights to the human genome information belong to the country of >origin of the human or humans who had their genomes analysed? Actually I've been thinking about that. I don't think that this can of worms has been realised by anyone yet. However, the problem may be difficult to resolve. If humans were endemic to a single country, the genome would belong to that country. But we're not (I use me with the assumption that you and i are both human). So as no country can show that humans are an endemic of their origin, it's a free for all. Except that if a "race" can be shown to be endemic, then the racial genome should logivcally be controlled by the biodiversity laws. As to individuals - if a genome is so rare it can be traced to a few named individuals, it may be possible to sue anyone who replicates material sourced from their genome. In Europe this would probably be an invasion of one's privacy as well as theft. Personally, i'm watching to make sure there are no artificially produced redheads that wear glasses - if there are, I'll sue! The lawyers should have a field day with this one!!! Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:11:38 +0100 Subject: N. clipeata exibiting red leaves? Hi, I have a small N. clipeata (2 inches) and the other day I noticed that the latest leaf had a strong reddish coloration. In the clipeata seed mix-up discussion on the list last year, it was mentioned that the hybrid exhibited distinctly red leaves. Has anyone seen this red color on clipeata as well or is it likely that I have the hybrid instead of the real thing. Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:21:18 +0100 Subject: Rain water Hey folks, I wonder what it is to rain water that makes it so fine for cp. I always thought it would be the relatively high acidity compared to tap water. Now, the tap water here in Duesseldorf, Germany, where I live, has a pH value of 8.5, rain water has about 7.0 (depending on which chemical plant has had uncontrolled emission that day). Now, here's what desturbs me: It's common wisdom, that rain water is better for your plants than filtered tap water (e.g. via Brita- or any other activated carbon filters). But the tap water here has a pH value of only 6.0 after filtering. Suggestions? Experiences? Happy growing, Marcus ################### From: "Hermann Wistuba" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:23:44 +0100 Subject: AW: N. clipeata exibiting red leaves? Hi Christer, the red coloration is a good sign. Both for the fact, that the red coloration (also in the hybrids) comes from the clipeata and for the fact that in N. clipeata the young leaves are quite reddish when the plants are growing nicely. The coloration is not a way to distinguish the true ones from the hybrids. This has to be done by leaf-shape. Currently not many true clones are in propagation. I propagate 4 clones that are definitely true. These were verified by letting samples grow to a big size that did not show any sign of any other species. As the hybrids that were produced in Munich are all F1 you'd expect the hybrids to be somewhat intermediate between the parents. I hope that helps. Bye Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227 68259 Mannheim GERMANY andreas@wistuba.com -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com]Im Auftrag von Christer Berglund Gesendet: Samstag, 17. Februar 2001 14:20 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: N. clipeata exibiting red leaves? Hi, I have a small N. clipeata (2 inches) and the other day I noticed that the latest leaf had a strong reddish coloration. In the clipeata seed mix-up discussion on the list last year, it was mentioned that the hybrid exhibited distinctly red leaves. Has anyone seen this red color on clipeata as well or is it likely that I have the hybrid instead of the real thing. Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:28:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Rain water > I wonder what it is to rain water that makes it so fine for cp. > I always thought it would be the relatively high acidity compared to tap water. Now, the tap > water here in Duesseldorf, Germany, where I live, has a pH value of 8.5, rain water has > about 7.0 (depending on which chemical plant has had uncontrolled emission that day). > Now, here's what desturbs me: It's common wisdom, that rain water is better for your plants > than filtered tap water (e.g. via Brita- or any other activated carbon filters). > But the tap water here has a pH value of only 6.0 after filtering. Dear Marcus, Are you saying that the water out of the tap is at pH 8.5 and after passing through a carbon filter, it has a pH of 6.0? There must be more than carbon in the filter... Depending on what it is, this may be good for your plants, or it may be bad. The pH of 6.0 is nice, but what might be causing the water to turn slightly acid? Dave Evans ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:11:40 -0800 Subject: Re: Fangs & Hooks Hi Jan and all, >>Here is something curious, the fangs of >>N. bicalcarata are like hooks. Jan, you are the undisputed Triphyophyllum >>expert, are the fangs of N. bicalcarata and hooks of Triphyophyllum at >>all analogous in comparative architecture? >The fangs of _N. bicalcarata_ are outgrowths of the peristome, a >tissue that is not well understood (at least by me, see previous >message). The hooks of _Triphyophyllum_ are more clearly >lateral leaf lobes (comparable to pinnae). The lateral position of >both fangs and hooks does indicate homology to a certain degree. If the ant plant origin is true, then the loop of the peristome would be the entry ring of the ant tunnel. Ants burrow along the central core of the N. bicalcarata tendril. I am supposing this area became inflated. No fusion of margins in this scheme. I recall the peristome of N. bicalcarata is smooth, maybe later the peristome became lined with additional hooks as extensions of the first? I am not confident that the fangs are not just a coincidence, but there is much supporting evidence for the tendril modification idea. On the back side of the pitcher at the top below the lid is seen a tail-like protrusion. I guess this is a vestige of the original tendril tip before the pitcher evolved. No such organ is seen in other pitcher families. >>The theory (not really expressed but +/- insinuated in your message) >>that _N. bicalcarata_ is a representative of a primitive stage in >>_Nepenthes_ evolution (it has domatia for ants and it is the only >>species with distinct fangs) is indeed interesting. But why do the >>western species (_N. madagascariensis, masoalensis, pervillei, >>distillatoria_) not show these features? The western species are >>usually regarded as more primitive than the rest of the genus. Not actually a well thought-out theory, more like just an off-the-wall idea to throw by you. I was not really serious, and I thought for sure I would get blasted as usual:-) Thankyou kindly for your response. I am not at all convinced that this is true but admit that this pattern of development from Triphyophyllum, to ant plant, to Nepenthes, is an intriguing idea. While Triphyophylum may have not in actuallity given rise to Nepenthes, the represented developmental model seems plausible. I say this all with hesitance because to concur with the above is to admit that what you, Jan, have been telling all along may be true. --Triphyophyllum may have led to Drosera as well, and so according to the above, Nepenthes and Drosera may also then have a common root. Oh no! Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:28:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: New U. calycifida clone! (again) Hey Folks, I've gotten a number of queries on the new U. calycifida variant I developed, i.e. > New-cross from front: http://www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ucaly08.jpg > New-cross from side: http://www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ucaly09.jpg I'm glad to see that there are many who appreciate Utrics! The common question is, "am I selling/trading this plant yet?" No, I'm not. I'm still evaluating its merits. If it turns out to be a satisfactory plant, I'll propagate the heck out of it and distribute it. I'll write a cultivar description of it, and time my distribution to more or less coincide with the publication of the cultivar description. (And yes, I've already selected a cultivar name, but it's a secret!). Later Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: EdwardK674@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:37:30 EST Subject: new clone In a message dated 02/15/2001 11:59:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: << http://www.sarracenia.com/photos1/ucaly07.jpg >> Hi Barry, Pretty neat looking. How long before you have enough material to supply the rest of us ;) Ed ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:23:53 +0000 Subject: Re: copyrights Jan, > > >"All material submitted for publication must be original and >unpublished, and must be accompanied by a statement signed by all >corresponding authors that the copyright of the manuscript (mention >the title!) is transferred to the International Carnivorous Plant >Society" > This seems a retrogressive step to me. Anything that I produce is mine to do with as I please. Maybe this will ease your backlog for publication though. :-) I certainly would think seriously before submitting anything if such conditions are attached. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:46:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Sarracenia Seed Dave, > >> I'd be happy to swap for plants or seeds, depending what you have of >> course. I've learned my lesson now about sending seeds (or anything >> else) through the US postal system. > > Are you interested in _Utricularlia asplundii_? It's not as weedy as >_U. alpina_, only grow one leaf per "rosette". > And it goes dormant for part of the year I think. Yes, a piece of that would be most welcome. Maybe one day I will be able to send you some U. nelumbifolia though not yet. I almost lost the plant trying someone else's advice by growing it in a coil of capillary matting. Although the matting would appear to reproduce the conditions of the Brochinia leaf axils closely the plant is far happier growing in live sphagnum. >> How are the tubers I sent growing? Most of mine are up again though many >> are only just surfacing now. They tend to grow late for me and I prefer >> it this way as they get more of the spring to grow in. > > Thank's for asking. They are finally up! The _D. peltata_ came up >right away, but _D. stolonifera_ waited until I placed it on a cold window >still a couple weeks back. Oddly, one of them, the _D. s. subsp. porrecta_ >formed a another tuber and then a shoot! Well, these plants (bulbous and >tuberous Drosera) are proving to be easier under lights than I ever >suspected. I used to think it be futile to cultivate these winter growers >inside, and a greenhouse or at least a window sill greenhouse was needed to >provide an authantic winter. D. stolonifera is a late grower. Most of mine are only just up, with the exception of D. stolonifera ssp rupicola which appears to come up earlier each year. I've heard of tubers forming second tubers, usually on top of the first. In fact this is the curse of trading tubers. I suspect the cause might be microscopic damage to the dormant growing point in transit or handling - something that is very difficult to avoid. Perhaps your plant had the same damage but produced a shoot from the tuber. I agree with you. I don't think that there are any external stimulants to start growth. It seems to be a simply growth cycle, perhaps chemically regulated. I find that whenever my plants go dormant they will more or less reappear six months later. This is most convenient when turning tubers from southern hemisphere to northern hemisphere seasons. The plants appear at their normal time but stay up for a shorter period, then reappear about six months later. I suspect that the plants do react to external stimuli when they start to die down - usually day length and possibly temperature as well. Having said that I have had D. peltata seedlings that have continued growing all through the summer. Then again this species tends to be an opportunist in this way anyhow. In many parts of eastern Australia they are summer growers. One thing I do recommend though is that when people get their tubers that they keep them cool. I used to think that this encouraged them into growth but not now. The one problem with keeping them too warm is they can lose moisture, even if kept in a plastic bag. Once dehydrated tubers seem unable to replace lost moisture. I have even tried soaking them in water but it doesn't work. > So far, _D. menziesii_ from a trade last year and _D. stolonifera >stolonifera_ from the ICPS SB are up and growing. The D. stolonifera have >been very small for the last three years. I had thought that these plants >were delayed seed germinated. Wrong! They are super small rosettes that >have been going dormant and reappearing the same exact spot year after year. >Well, I decided to spray them with fertilizer and they have been getting >bigger and greener (the traps are redder too). > Seed can be incredibly slow and yes feeding them can really boost the growth rate. Because my plants are greenhouse grown they tend to hang about later in the spring. During the really cold winter weather they will pretty well stop all growth resuming when the weather warms up again. Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Vitor Fernandes Oliveira de Miranda Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:55:06 -0300 Subject: Digests request... Dear all, Could someone send me the digests from 2450 till the last one? I had some problems using Netscape and lost all my mails... :-( Thanks in advance Vitor Rio Claro-SP, Brazil ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:50:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Unidentified utrics. Dear Tim, Yes, I do think it *could* be, it sure matches the flower much better. I went and studied the plant and Peter Taylor's book last night when I saw your message come in. I think I understand what is going on: Both _U.subulata_ and _U. bisquamata_ are growing together in the same pot. Apparently this subulata is of the regular cleistomis (sp?) type. I haven't seen it flower, but I might have missed it. I found a scape that was about 1/3 the height of the U. b.(?) scapes, it had grown three flowers and the scape has a zigzag shape above the first flower. There are several, six or seven, scales on this scape below the first flower. It matches, just about perfectly, to Taylor's drawing of the U. subulata scape. On the much taller scapes there is only one scale before the first flower and the stalk continues straight upward, not zigzagged after the flower. The two flowers themselves don't make for such a good match, but the upper corolla lip is a dead ringer for the drawing of U. bisquamata. The spur reminds me somewhat of those found on _U. sandersonii_ though a bit shorter, if that helps with the ID. Dave Evans ----- Original Message ----- To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 3:59 AM > Hi Dave. > > Do you think the mystery utric might be U. bisquamata? > ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:30:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Fangs & Hooks Dear Jan, >But why do the western species (_N. madagascariensis, >masoalensis, pervillei, >distillatoria_) not show these features? The western species are >usually regarded as more primitive than the rest of the genus. What is the basis for this opinion? Are there particular features that are assumed as more primitive? For example, in _Drosera_ this is often mentioned with regard to the types of pollen species have in conjuction with the shapes of the ovaries. Dave Evans ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:53:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Nepenthes Pests > fungus problems. Their life-cycle takes them underground, so a systemic > insecticide, like "Orthene" should be used, following the labels > instructions for Thrips. As for Heliamphora, Scale insects can do a lot of > harm, even in very low numbers. Orthene is safe to use on Heliamphora. One of the people I trade with has terrible insect problems in their greenhouse, but the Orthene knocks all the bugs out. I just pot up the new plants and place them a in large Styrofoam cooler, spray and soak the plants and place the lid back on to seal in the poison. I leave the plants in there for a week. The foam transmits enough light for the plants to manage for the this time. Since the poison doesn't diffuse in it's normal fashion, I can use a bit less while limiting the amount that gets into my environment. Of course, never ever use the cooler for food again. Dave Evans ################### From: S.Ippenberger@t-online.de (Ippenberger) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:03:01 +0100 Subject: Propagation of D. hilaris and D. ramentacea Hi, please could anybody enlighten me what methods (except seed) of propagation do work on D. hilaris and D. ramentacea. Are leaf cuttings a good method or root cuttings? Stefan ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:10:11 +0000 Subject: Re: Rain water Marcus, > > >I wonder what it is to rain water that makes it so fine for cp. I >always thought it would be the relatively high acidity compared to tap >water. Now, the tap water here in Duesseldorf, Germany, where I live, >has a pH value of 8.5, rain water has about 7.0 (depending on which >chemical plant has had uncontrolled emission that day). Now, here's >what desturbs me: It's common wisdom, that rain water is better for >your plants than filtered tap water (e.g. via Brita- or any other >activated carbon filters). But the tap water here has a pH value of >only 6.0 after filtering. > I think the thing about rain water is that it is reasonably pure, depending of course on what it has passed through on its way to earth. Tap water is from land sources, either reservoir or underground water aquifers. Even if the water is acidic in quality there is a high possibility that it will have collected salts from the soil on its way to your tap. Because carnivorous plants use a lot of water the dissolved salts will tend to build up in the soil over a period of time. This is what is so bad about tap water. Most water filters use a carbon filter which will remove larger impurities but are not very good at removing dissolved salts. They are a compromise but not a replacement for rain water. Distilled water or water from a reverse osmosis filter will have almost all the impurities removed and is probably purer than rain water. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:52:45 -0000 Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens Barry First - great photos - loved the Utrics! Now on to the reply. You've already heard about Edinburgh (I do hope you yanks remember to pronounce in ed- in-burra, no ed-in-burg!). So some others here, and further afield: Kew (located on the south side of Kew Bridge, London, England) - certainly has representatives of most CP types. An impressive collection of Victorian Nepenthes hybrids seems to have dwindled but there are a few Nepenthes species and hybrids lurking in odd corners. Sarracenia are easily found as are Drosera, Pinguicula and Utricularia. However, there are no rarities and cultivation of all they grow seems to be a challenge. Some additional species may be available to view by private arrangement behind the scenes, but again, don't expect anything rare. The collection is mainly confined to a side room that is set up to attempt to mimic or represent a wild environment. There is also some printed information to read, aimed at those who know nothing about carnivorous plants. The Nepenthes could easily be missed by anyone who hasn't time to play hide-and-seek, except for two fairly ordinary plants that grow against the wall right outside the "CP room". Almost the entire CP collection can be seen in some pat of the Princess of Wales Conservatory. However, visitors should also check out the Alpine House (conveniently located about a half mile away from the Princess of Wales Conservatory ) where you can occassionally see a temperate Pinguicula or tuberous Drosera. However, they rarely stay on show for more than one season and the reason is probably obvious. Birmingham Botanic Gardens (located in Birmingham, England) - usually has a fine display of Pinguicula along with various other carnivorous plants. Almost everything is in one area of the greenhouses but, as this is a small private botanic garden, it doesn't take long to look around. This is not my favourite botanic garden as I delivered many very rare Pinguicula to them by hand (a round trip of 400 miles) all of which "disappeared" before going on public show. The current good exhibition quality is dependent on the quality and range of plants donated by a single CP fan. Cambridge Botanic Garden (located Cambridge, England) - can have the occassional rare cp but again, they don't last long! As with most botanic gardens, CP cultivation appears to be a challenge for them. Normally not a CP collection worth a special trip to see. Oxford Botanic Garden (located Oxford, England) - is endebted to a single ex-employee who built up talmost the entire collection based on his own personal love of CP. Since his retirement, the collection has been in decline but is still interesting to those not already familiar with CP's. Ina competition for "best public cp exhibition", it would probaly rank in number one or two position, possibly losing out to Birmingham. The UK has occassional other public exhibitions that may occur within Butterfly farms as a side attraction. Jardin Botanico de Habana (located about 30 minutes taxi drive outside of Havana, Cuba with no alternative public transport). This botanic garden has no public display of carnivorous plants (yet) but does make attempts to grow a small number of their endemic cp's behind the scenes. A friendly request to see them would almost always be received with welcome and, if plants were in cultivation, it is likley a visitor would be allowed to see them. (In any event, if you're in Cuba, syou should not avoid the chance to visit as the vegetarian restaurant is one of the best places to eat in all Cuba and there are some other good plants to see). Note, no other botanic garden in Cuba currently makes any attempt to maintain any collection of CP. Hope this is type of info you were seeking. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Sundew1802@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:28:50 EST Subject: Re: Nep northiana x veitchii seed Hi This is for all you Nepenthes growers and collectors of nice clones. I find that I have a bit of extra seed from a selfing of Nepenthes northiana x veitchii The pitchers(IMHO) are as nice as those from xDyeriana.(large and with a nice wide,banded peristome). I put a few packets of seed on the raffle table at the last BACPS meeting, and I will put a small amount withthe ICPS seed bank. However for those of you who want a sure thing,I will trade or sell the remainder. I prefer to trade, but I will sell a packet(3-4 seed capsules) for $15 until they run out. If you are outside the US, I will have to see how I can handle it. Please email me privatelyDONOT simply respond to the listing. Thanks Bob Hudson Fla ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:14:45 -0800 Subject: tjohns' Cultivation Tips? I had a bookmark to a page called "CARNIVOROUS PLANTS GERMINATION & CULTIVATION TIPS". The URL was: http://www.primenet.com/~tjjohns/germ.htm Unfortunately, that page now comes up "404 Not Found". Does anyone know of a new URL for that page? I found it very useful. -Joe ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:00:53 -0600 Subject: Volcanic gravel? I'm thinking about using some volcanic gravel (the kind you see covering flowerbeds) in some of my CP garden projects, and I'd like to know if the stuff is pH nuetral... It's certainly not limestone or marble. Mike ################### From: "R B" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:46:29 -0800 Subject: Looking for these CP books Hi, I'm looking for the following Carnivorous Plants books. These are all out-of-print. If you have a copy you would like to sell, or know someone who does, please let me know. Thanks for any help. Ron ------------------------------------------------------------ Insect-Eating Plants And How To Grow Them Adrian Slack, 1986 or 1988, 172 pages Carnivorous Plants of Australia, Vol 1. Allen Lowrie, 1987, 200 pages Pitcher plants of Peninsular Malaysia & Singapore Roger Shivas, 1984, 58 pages The Carnivorous Plants Barrie Edward Juniper, 1989, 353 pages Carnivorous Plants of the West, Volume II Hawkeye Rondeau, 82 pages Plants Of Prey In Australia Rica Erickson, 94 pages Photo Album Of Air and Carnivorous Plants In Color... Harry Chi-King Mak, 1995, 248 pages Genshoku Shokuchu shokubutsu (Carnivorous Plants of the World in Colour) Katsuhiko Kondo, Masahiro Kondo, 1983, 232 pages L'Univers des Plantes Carnivores (The World of Carnivorous Plants) Jean-Jacques Labat, Paul Starosta, 1993, 140 pages Les Plantes Carnivores (Carnivorous Plants) Pierre Jolivet, 1987, 126 pages. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ################### From: sean samia Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:42:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: N.clippeata, for what it's worth Hey Listserver! It's been a very long time! I'm back! Concerning N.clippeata, Dr. A. Wistuba's clones #1 and #3 are definitely the true clippeata. Don't have clone #2, so I can't tell you on that one.If the N.clippeata leaf turns red, you're giving it too much light, in my opinion. I was under the impression it grew in the shade. By giving the seedling lower light levels, the seedling will grow faster. Petiolaris Sean Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:41:12 +0000 Subject: copyright Dear Phil & al., > This seems a retrogressive step to me. Anything that I produce is mine > to do with as I please. Maybe this will ease your backlog for > publication though. :-) I certainly would think seriously before > submitting anything if such conditions are attached. Well, every author is of course free to decide if and where he/she wants to publish thier material. But I still trust you would submit your material to CPN after having thought about it seriously once again. After all, the conditions included in our new Instructions are the rule with comparable periodicals rather than an exception, and most journals (incl. CPN in the past) act as if they were the copyright holders even if they are not (in a stricly legal sense, because they do not have copyright transfer statements). I hope you understand that the ICPS would not like to be sued for publishing material without formal permission by the authors (i.e without copyright transfer statements). Kind regards Jan ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:19:08 +0000 Subject: primitive _Nepenthes_ Dear Dave, > >The western species are > >usually regarded as more primitive than the rest of the genus. > > What is the basis for this opinion? Are there particular features that > are assumed as more primitive? For example, in _Drosera_ this is often > mentioned with regard to the types of pollen species have in conjuction > with the shapes of the ovaries. The most convincing (at least for me) morphological reason for this assumption is in the inflorescences. _Nepenthes_ has compound cymose inflorescences (there is a progressive "transitional" series in terms of reduction of foliar organs from _Triphyophyllum_ through _Ancistrocladus_ to _Nepenthes_ in this respect!). The ancestral type is a central main axis with lateral short shoots bearing several flowers in a cymose arrangement (as seen in _Triphyophyllum_). In a derived stage, the lateral branches are extremely reduced with foliar organs becoming vestigial (e.g. in the form of small, deciduous filaments, or absent whatsoever, as in some of the derived species of _Nepenthes_). The assumedly primitive western species of _Nepenthes_ do all have branched, many-flowered lateral inflorescence branches (the inflorescences being "paniculate" in appearance), still rather reminiscent of the supposed ancestral type. The geographic position at the western end of the global range of the genus possibly indicates a western origin of the genus (although I do not really believe it originated in Europe, as suggested by some fossil pollen finds) and an eastward range extension. Genetic investigations (apparently in press at the moment) have the western species as basal branches in the phylogenetic reconstruction. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Steve Alton" Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:34:18 -0000 Subject: Darlingtonia seed Dear All, I still have quite a bit of spare Darlingtonia seed left, even after donating to the UKCPS Seed Bank. Anybody interested in some? It is from the end of last year, and has germinated very well for me. Steve Alton ################### From: Susan Cooper Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:07:21 -0600 Subject: Re: Rain water Lower pH is more acidic. A pH of 8.5 is considered on the basic (alkaline) side. ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:16:24 -0600 Subject: Re: Darlingtonia seed I'll bite. What are the terms? Mike Steve Alton wrote: > > Dear All, > > I still have quite a bit of spare Darlingtonia seed left, even after > donating to the UKCPS Seed Bank. > > Anybody interested in some? It is from the end of last year, and > has germinated very well for me. > > Steve Alton ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:29:23 EST Subject: Re:Flowering Nepenthes Hey Everyone, Here's another update I do every couple of months or so as to which Nepenthes are flowering for me right now. Nepenthes truncata (unsure of the sexes, but should have plenty of both this year) Nepenthes sanguinea "purple" (2 Male and 3 female plants still in flower) Nepenthes rafflesiana (2 plants flowering out of sync with the other rafflesiana's. Unsure of the sexes as of yet. The other raff's usually flower in a couple of months.) Nepenthes spathulata (unsure of the sex as of yet) Nepenthes thorelii (unsure of the sex as of yet) Nepenthes maxima (this species and all of its varities have been flowering of the past few months. I still have one female and six males actively flowering.) Nepenthes xTiveyi (unsure of the sex as of yet) Michael Catalani Mempihs, Tn ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:23:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: New U. calycifida clone Hey Ed, The plant you noted in your email (ucaly07.jpg photo) is Utricularia calycifida 'Lavinia Whateley', and is already pretty common in cultivation. It shouldn't be too hard to find. My new cross (ucaly08.jpg, ucaly09.jpg) will get distribution later this year, assuming it is worthy. Probably we'll have some available at the UCDavis plant sale in October. It depends also on CPN publishing backlog. Later Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org > > New-cross from front: http://www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ucaly08.jpg > > New-cross from side: http://www.sarracenia.com/photos2/ucaly09.jpg > << http://www.sarracenia.com/photos1/ucaly07.jpg >> > Hi Barry, > Pretty neat looking. How long before you have enough material to supply the > rest of us ;) > Ed ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:52:39 -0800 Subject: Nepenthes seed Hi everyone, Our local club (the Vancouver Carnivorous Plant Club) is having a public show and sale in April. A large part of the show is an educational display on different aspects of cp's (growing, ecology, distribution, etc.). For my part of the display, I plan on showing the growth of Nepenthes, from seed to mature plants. While I have plants ranging in age from seedlings to many years old, I do not currently have any seed. So, my hope is that someone out there can provide me with a very small quantity of seed for the display (around a dozen or so). Since this is just a display, it can be non-viable seed that you've had stored in the fridge since the late eighties! Thanks in advance for your help! Happy growing, Chris -- Chris Teichreb http://www.geocities.com/cteichreb ("Coastal Carnivores", my homepage) http://www.geocities.com/VCPC2000 (Vancouver Carnivorous Plant Club) ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:09:30 -0500 Subject: CP Society I would love to start a West Michigan Carnivorous Plant Society. Anybody have any pointers, how-to's etc.? Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: Olivier Marthaler Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:12:27 +0100 Subject: new email address Hi everybody, >From Wed 21 on, my new email address will be: o.marthaler@bluewin.ch All the best from CH, Olivier Marthaler ################### From: "Mark Bachelor" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:36:57 +1100 Subject: Re: Botanical Gardens Both Melbourne and Geelong Royal Botanical Gardens have CP collections. Melbourne has a good range of Nepenthes and Sarras in a glasshouse and a shade house, as well as a few Drosera and VFTs. Geelong has an outdoor garden that was set up by VCPS, but it is to be re-done this year. ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:37:34 +0000 Subject: Re: copyright Jan, > > >Well, every author is of course free to decide if and where he/she >wants to publish thier material. But I still trust you would submit >your material to CPN after having thought about it seriously once >again. > >After all, the conditions included in our new Instructions are the >rule with comparable periodicals rather than an exception, >and most journals (incl. CPN in the past) act as if they were the >copyright holders even if they are not (in a stricly legal sense, >because they do not have copyright transfer statements). I hope you >understand that the ICPS would not like to be sued for publishing >material without formal permission by the authors (i.e without >copyright transfer statements). > I find it difficult to see how any author could possibly justify suing the ICPS for publishing material they have submitted..... but a simple release form should be sufficient. My major problem is that contrary to popular belief not every English speaking CP grower is a member of the ICPS. This is why when I write material I like to send it to several publications, including the one of which I am editor! While its nice to be exclusive its not always the best means to reach the widest audiences. It would also mean that CPN contributors would not be able to do things like putting their own published material onto their web site, something I believe your co-editor does from time to time. ;-) Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:53:53 +0930 Subject: Geckoes and Pests Most of my Neps are growing on an upstairs balcony, more or less exposed to the elements. The balcony is also home to a number of geckoes. I'm not sure what particular type they are - they're pink, they're found everywhere in Darwin and they make a loud noise. I often find their calling cards on the leaves of my Neps, (interestingly, their guano does not cause leaf burn). I mention all of this because I do see the occasional mealy bug, but they have never become a serious problem. Possibly, the geckoes are eating them. I would suggest to anyone with a hothouse (especially one set up for lowland Neps) that a small population of geckoes could be a way of keeping the pests down. They're available as pets in the US, at least. Anyone vaguely curious should have a look at the geckolinks.com site. Unfortunately, geckoes are no use against giant grasshoppers. I caught another one a few days ago. It was only a juvenile (6cm long) but it still managed to eat a huge hole in a leaf of my N. veitichii x truncata. The annoying thing about these grasshoppers is that seem to ignore every other plant in the garden and go straight for the Nepenthes. They prefer veitchii hybrids for some reason. I'm going to have to breed a N. truncata x merriliana or some other hybird with giant pitchers and get revenge. Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:09:14 +0000 Subject: copyright Dear Phil, > I find it difficult to see how any author could possibly justify suing > the ICPS for publishing material they have submitted. Logical reasoning and legal action are not always coextensive. Fortunately, so far our authors applied common sense rather than the law. We just want to retain a chance to survive *before* the lawyers take over. > .... but a simple release form should be sufficient. Experience with our cultivar registration form indicates that CPers have difficulties with forms. We could of course design one for the web if there is any significant interest. > My major problem is that contrary to popular belief not every English > speaking CP grower is a member of the ICPS. Why not? ;-) > It would also mean that CPN contributors would not be able to do things > like putting their own published material onto their web site, something > I believe your co-editor does from time to time. ;-) Not only my co-editor. Contrary to possibly widespread belief, our intention is not exclusivity or to prohibit the spread of information. We just need to operate on safe legal ground. Copyright is not necessarily exclusive. Just ask the editors (not only of CPN but of any other journal you like), and you will in all probability obtain a permission to republish their material (but usually not whole issues). Or look carefully at the copyright statements in most books. You will find the expression "without permission" or an equivalent. This does only mean that you must obtain the permission before you distribute the material. It does not mean that it is absolutely impossible to republish it. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Dr. Ramesh Singh Chouhan" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:41:41 -0500 Subject: RE: CP society in India Dear All, I have tried to find out if there is a CP club/society in India and finally along with a few friends who at this point of time do not have any CPs but are professionally involved (Joint Director of Horticulture, Professor of Forestry etc)am planning to start an Indian Society of CP'ers or something like that. Any help, Directions, past experience etc? Dr. Ramesh Singh Chouhan 29, Hosur main road Adugodi, Bangalore 560030 India email: chouhan@chouhan.com ################### From: "Massey, Oliver" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:35:38 -0500 Subject: RE: copyright Actually, as an author, I know a (very) little about the issue of copyright transfer. It is not necessarily automatic that a publisher (should) receive a copyright transfer from the author. The issue is ownership of the material. Transfer of copyright (and I am not a lawyer so --- sue me) is roughly the transfer of the right to reproduce the creation. So if you sign over the copyright, you have lost the right to publish elsewhere. And yes, that includes web publishing. And yes, ICPS or any other publisher can give or sell those rights once they have them. An alternative offered by literary agents is to grant limited rights to the publisher, or stipulate that the rights revert to the author once the material is out of print. I am not trying to hit on ICPS or the editors, I respect the great job they do. But ICPS is free to develop a fair and reasonable assignment clause that will not hurt authors. Afterall, being fair to authors will not compromise the quality of the product the ICPS offers. Tom in Fl. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 7:02 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Jan, > > >Well, every author is of course free to decide if and where he/she >wants to publish thier material. But I still trust you would submit >your material to CPN after having thought about it seriously once >again. > >After all, the conditions included in our new Instructions are the >rule with comparable periodicals rather than an exception, >and most journals (incl. CPN in the past) act as if they were the >copyright holders even if they are not (in a stricly legal sense, >because they do not have copyright transfer statements). I hope you >understand that the ICPS would not like to be sued for publishing >material without formal permission by the authors (i.e without >copyright transfer statements). > I find it difficult to see how any author could possibly justify suing the ICPS for publishing material they have submitted..... but a simple release form should be sufficient. My major problem is that contrary to popular belief not every English speaking CP grower is a member of the ICPS. This is why when I write material I like to send it to several publications, including the one of which I am editor! While its nice to be exclusive its not always the best means to reach the widest audiences. It would also mean that CPN contributors would not be able to do things like putting their own published material onto their web site, something I believe your co-editor does from time to time. ;-) Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: john green Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:13:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: grasshoppers (was: Geckoes and Pests) > Unfortunately, geckoes are no use against giant grasshoppers. > I caught another one a few days ago. It was only a juvenile > (6cm long) but it still managed to eat a huge hole in a leaf > of my N. veitichii x truncata. The annoying thing about these > grasshoppers is that seem to ignore every other plant in the > garden and go straight for the Nepenthes. They prefer veitchii > hybrids for some reason. I'm going to have to breed a N. > truncata x merriliana or some other hybird with giant pitchers > and get revenge. I know many people are loathe to use inorganic pest control methods but have you tried a systemic pesticide on your Neps? It seems if they prefer a particular plant(s) you could at least minimize the damage that way (assuming you can use pesticides on Neps - I'm not a big Nep grower). Either that or get a bigger gecko! John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:28:01 EST Subject: RE: grasshoppers (was: Geckoes and Pests) Hi All, The largest gecko I can think of is the Tokay gecko. It gets to be about 12" long and are not the best geckos for pets, as most tend to bite. Australia has a lot of monitor lizards, some of them not big(as far as monitors go). I think they are sometimes called "goanas' , but in the herp trade they are often called varanids. They will gourge themselves on grasshoppers, but their feces might stink up a greenhouse. Might be interesting to see what would happen. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:27:32 -0600 Subject: Please - Re: copyright Is it possible to put this overcooked thread and related threads to rest or take it off the list? Mike ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:19:56 -0500 Subject: RE: Please - Re: copyright Amen Brother... Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Michael Vanecek Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 12:30 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Is it possible to put this overcooked thread and related threads to rest or take it off the list? Mike ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:04:09 EST Subject: Lowrie Orchid List Hi All, Sorry to post this here, but somebody sent me a list of orchid seed and tubers from Allen Lowrie, and I know someone wanted a list if I ever saw one. I don't have that person's e-mail anymore, so if you would e-mail me, I will send it on. I don't do orchids myself, so it's wasted with me. Thanks, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: SteveDAlton@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:04:44 EST Subject: Re: Darlingtonia seed Dear Mike, >I'll bite. What are the terms? > >Mike Well, it's surplus to my requirements, so you're welcome to a sample, though a little something in exchange is always an added bonus ;-) Do you have anything going spare? Steve ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:15:16 EST Subject: Re: Nepenthes Growing This Past Winter Hey Everyone, I had a spare moment and wanted to vent about this past winter's miserable growing conditions. We have had one of the worst winters I can remember for growing neps in an outdoor greenhouse. It wasn't so much that the temperatures were cold, the problem was our days have been cloudy and the nights have been clear. Over and Over and Over again, we would have cloudy days and clear nights. I remember talking to Tom at Glasshouse Works about 10 years ago, and he was having a slow season with nep propagation because he said it had been so "dark" that winter. I never understood his problem fully until this past winter. Being cloudy in the day kept the neps from growing at optimum speed, and kept the greenhouse from naturally warming itself with the sunlight. This meant more propane gas usage to keep the greenhouse warm during the daytime. My 250 gallon propane tank would normally handle the entire winter, but has had to be filled numerous times this winter. (At about $400 per fill YIKES!) Lesson learned. I'll exchage my tank for a 1000 gallon tank and make sure its filled in July. This week has been beautiful so far, maybe spring is knocking at the door. Michael Catalani Nepenthes Hell, TN ################### From: "R. E. Jones" Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:16:53 -0000 Subject: Gemmae Hi, I have some gemmae for trade, they will only go in the bin if no one wants them. Drosera callistos D. enodes D. pulchella (Pink) D. pulchella (Orange) D. mannii D. scorpioides D. roseana D. nitidula spp. nitidula X occidentalis Lake Badgerup e-mail me seperately if you want some, any offers considered but CP an advantage :-). Dick Jones 14 Post Office Road, Dersingham, King's Lynn, Norfolk PE31 6HP www.angelfire.com/ab4/REJones/ ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:15:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: CP Botanical Gardens Hey Folks, I've put up the first version of the listing of carnivorous plant gardens directory. Not a whole lot there yet. A number of people sent me information on sites that were notably bad, or just had really lame collections. I decided it would be best not to include those facilities. I thought about creating a "Hall of Shame," but I already get enough angry email from FAQ-readers wi/out senses of humour already, so I jettisoned that idea. Any other sites? I'm sure there are---you'll notice a preponderance of northern California sites (where I just happen to live). Surely there are other collections in the world. Tell me about them! The site list is at: http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq6260.html (Introduction page) http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq6010h.html (Actual garden list) I await your approval/criticism/suggestions. Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:42:04 +0000 Subject: Re: copyright Jan, > >> My major problem is that contrary to popular belief not every English >> speaking CP grower is a member of the ICPS. > >Why not? ;-) > I don't know but its hard to believe isn't it.... Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:35:17 -0600 Subject: Membership [was Re: copyright] I'm guilty. I've spent all my money recreating my collection and building the growing system (all that I could sneak from my business financial manager and wife anyway) that, well, that thirty bucks just seems to have disappeared. Maybe next month - unless I find some Heliamphora's. But there's always April - but by then my seeds will have sprouted and I'll need to buy more containers to thin them into. May? June? Oh well, we know that "tomorrow" never gets here. But it's in the list of things to do, just kinda gets shuffled with all the CP's... Cheers, Mike Phil Wilson wrote: > > Jan, > > > >> My major problem is that contrary to popular belief not every English > >> speaking CP grower is a member of the ICPS. > > > >Why not? ;-) > > > I don't know but its hard to believe isn't it.... > Phil Wilson > Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk > Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:52:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yet another FAQ page that needs help Hey Folks, Here's another FAQ page that needs help: http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq6340.html This page lists goofy movies or TV shows that have carnivorous plants in them. I know I am missing a huge amount here. Aren't there movies like Dinner with Andre or something like that which have short references to CP? These can go in here, too. Cheers Barry --------------------- Dr. Barry Meyers-Rice bazza@sarracenia.com Carnivorous Plant FAQ--author www.sarracenia.com/faq.html Carnivorous Plant Newsletter--editor www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:06:22 -0500 Subject: Mailing Live Plants I think everyone is familiar with the typical writing on a plant box, "live plants", "This end up", "avoid extreme temps." etc. Today I received a box of plants from Spring Orchid Specialties in Texas, and I laughed out loud. Their plant mailing label is truly unique. It reads: MAIL CARRIER This box contains LIVE PLANTS..... Please do not hide it behind BUSHES, leave in the RAIN, MANGLE & MUTILATE or let it FREEZE or GOD WILL GET YOU!!!! I think they covered it pretty well. I had to cut this part off the box and hang it in my office! Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:12:49 -0800 Subject: Re: Primitive Nepenthes >>The most convincing (at least for me) morphological reason for this assumption is in the inflorescences. _Nepenthes_ has compound cymose inflorescences (there is a progressive "transitional" series in terms of reduction of foliar organs from _Triphyophyllum_ through _Ancistrocladus_ to _Nepenthes_ in this respect!). / >>The geographic position at the western end of the global range of the genus possibly indicates a western origin of the genus (although I do not really believe it originated in Europe, as suggested by some fossil pollen finds) and an eastward range extension. Kind regards Jan Hi Jan and all, Fascinating. I would like to learn more about the relation of Nepenthes, Ancistrocladus and Dioncophylaceae. Concerning western Nepenthes, I was told a tale by a Herpetologist aquaintance about a mysterious pitcher plant he once claims to have seen in Africa. I was telling Francois Lebarre about my interest in CP and asked him if he had ever seen any himself in nature. He did not know much about them but knew what a pitcher plant was and said he had seen them in Madagascar were he was living at the time, and also found one recently while in Africa searching for new frog and lizard species. This seemed odd to me because I thought there were none in Africa. He went on to tell me that he found it near the base of Mount Rumpe. This area is several days journey by canoe and hiking on foot. He sketched the plant for me and the pitcher itself looked like a typical Nepenthes, but the flower was quite strange. He said it was a large red single flower and his drawing showed an otherwise normal Nepenthes shaped flower. Francois is a very keen recorder of details and an excellent sketcher, as he has much experiance in these in his work with animals, though he had not seen a Nepenthes flower before. I have since lost contact with Francois. Does this story make any sense? Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:49:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Mailing Live Plants Scan it and post it in a "Unique Shipping FAQ"... :) Mike Steve LaWarre wrote: > > I think everyone is familiar with the typical writing on a plant box, "live > plants", "This end up", "avoid extreme temps." etc. Today I received a box > of plants from Spring Orchid Specialties in Texas, and I laughed out loud. > Their plant mailing label is truly unique. > It reads: > > MAIL CARRIER > This box contains LIVE PLANTS..... > Please do not hide it behind BUSHES, leave in > the RAIN, MANGLE & MUTILATE or let it > FREEZE or GOD WILL GET YOU!!!! > > I think they covered it pretty well. I had to cut this part off the box and > hang it in my office! > > Steven R. LaWarre > Grower > Frederik Meijer Gardens > 1000 E Beltline NE > Grand Rapids MI 49525 > (616)975-3175 > slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: John Brittnacher Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:02:41 -0800 Subject: Last warning about demise of old web ring We would like to complete the transition from our old web ring to the new web ring on the ICPS web site by the end of this month. The ringmasters are in the process of working with site owners to get the ring code on web ring member sites updated. If you have a web site, were on the old web ring, and have not heard from us, please send a message to ringmasters@carnivorousplants.org. There are features on the new ring worth the effort. Check out http://www.carnivorousplants.org/webring/webringmain.html On the search page, ignore the "This may not be very useful until more sites on the ring update their entries.". This is no longer true but I keep forgetting to remove it from the page. Any sites that aren't updated will be removed from the ring. In March we plan to nuke the old site to minimize confusion. ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:09:16 +0000 Subject: Re: CP Botanical Gardens Sometimes even a lame collection is better than none at all. Perhaps submitters could assign marks out of 10 for coverage of CP genera and marks out of 10 for quality of plants, then even lame collections could be publicised. I seem to remember a number of CPs at Munich Botanic Gardens, including an impressive (for a botanic garden) collection of pygmies. However that was nearly 20 years ago - perhaps someone can provide an update. NigelH ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:18:36 EST Subject: Re: Primitive Nepenthes Ivan and all, I love it when I hear stories like this. How do we go about setting up a donation fund to send someone out in the field to check out this kind of stuff? :) I regret I have not won the lottery, yet, so I can't afford to do it. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: chamb@u.arizona.edu Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:35:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Primitive Nepenthes At 09:29 AM 21 02 2001 -0800, you wrote: >He went on to tell me that he found it near >the base of Mount Rumpe. This area is several days journey by canoe and >hiking on foot. He sketched the plant for me and the pitcher itself >looked like a typical Nepenthes, but the flower was quite strange. He >said it was a large red single flower and his drawing showed an otherwise >normal Nepenthes shaped flower. ...and cautiously pried the crumpled shred of paper from his clenched fist. Even as the arrow poison set in, he would not free the notes from his grasp. We stared in awe at the record of his discovery, and knew from these bare lines that we too were hopelessly compelled to face the steaming jungle in a death-struggle for the prize. Yeah, I love these stories too :-) Michael ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:38:46 -0500 Subject: RE: Primitive Nepenthes >He went on to tell me that he found it near >the base of Mount Rumpe. This area is several days journey by canoe and >hiking on foot. He sketched the plant for me and the pitcher itself >looked like a typical Nepenthes, but the flower was quite strange. He >said it was a large red single flower and his drawing showed an otherwise >normal Nepenthes shaped flower. ...and cautiously pried the crumpled shred of paper from his clenched fist. Even as the arrow poison set in, he would not free the notes from his grasp. We stared in awe at the record of his discovery, and knew from these bare lines that we too were hopelessly compelled to face the steaming jungle in a death-struggle for the prize. --------------- Can I go?, I want to go! PLEASE?.... Steve ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:04:01 -0500 Subject: Re: CP Botanical Gardens > A number of people sent me information on sites that were notably bad, or > just had really lame collections. I decided it would be best not to > include those facilities. I thought about creating a "Hall of Shame," but > I already get enough angry email from FAQ-readers wi/out senses of humour > already, so I jettisoned that idea. Hi Barry, Well, I think you're right about the "Hall of Shame" being cancelled. However, maybe these places should be listed so they can be incouraged to grow healthier and more variety of CP. I was at Long Wood Gardens over the weekend. They have a about seven clones of Nepenthes on display. _N. truncata, N. alata, N. ventricosa, N. mixta, and N. dyeriana_ There was a N. truncata hybrid labelled as "N. truncata", and a N. alata the was labelled "N. truncata * N. alata" which it is not! I believe these are the same clones featured in a CPN artical from quite awhile back... The show stopper for me, though was _N. maxima_, they have a really nice example of this species on display. All CP's were in the Fern section. There were _D. spatulata_ or _D. capillaris_ (I can never tell...) labelled "D. capensis." Also there was some _Sarracenia_! Some were even labelled correctly and a couple even look pretty nice considering they are dormant. _S. luecophylla, S. catesbaei, S. formosa_ (I think), _S. psittacina * S. flava_, and a couple others. There are some half dormant VFT's, and that's about it. Dave Evans ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:17:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Drosera 'Albino' Dear Jan and List, > Because of its Latin origin, it is not a cultivar name (the quotes > are immaterial). It is a nomen nudum (i.e. its rank is undefined, > anyway). If the rank is not noted in the original publication, such > combinations are usually interpreted (at least in the cp db) as > varieties. "After "growing-on" it became obvious that one plant was unusual for it presented a white flower and not the usual pink colour. The plant was propagated further by leaf cuttings and seed and was found to breed "true" (i.e. white flowers were produced). Another and probably more significant feature of the described form is the lack of red colouration in the leaves and tentacles under various lighting conditions, including strong sun." Standard: Savage Garden:128 (1998), (only second plant from left) Propagation: leaf cuttings & seed Etymology: after the complete lack of anthocyanins However, apparently this plant, while never producing red, does indeed produce a pink blush to the tips of the tenticals when grown in strong light. I understand that one in five men have some degree of color blindness. So can we just assume the author was unable to notice this faint coloration and this plant is D. 'Albino'? Or is this plant which can produce faintly pink traps simply D. capensis var alba? Or is it an as of yet un-named cultivar? I'm interested in what to call these various clones D. c. alba, white fl., and all-green that I have aquired over the years which all look the same and respond to strong light exactly the same way. Dave Evans ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:15:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia seed dispersal Dear Phil, --SNIP-- > The assumption is > that the plant's reaction to drought differs according to what stage of > growth the drought occurs. If it occurs before seed has set the flowers > and pitchers abort - in some instances phylodia are produced but this is > not always the case. If seed production has begun then all growth is > aborted in favour of seed production. The reasons are obvious - the best > chance of survival is by dormant seed, which may lie in the ground for a > number of years waiting for favourable conditions to return. Failing > that the plants will attempt to survive in a shut down 'semi-dormant' > state. I think this is basically the growing seed in the ovaries taking over control the plant via hormones. If the flower isn't pollinated, it withers much sooner since there are no seed to send the message asking/demanding for more nutrient and so the plant tries to re-absorb some of what it put into the inflorescence. In the case of the plants mentioned above, they were growing in the dark. Even when the leaves try to grow, they are not strong enough to produce a clear signal asking the plant for more nutrients, resulting in the plant giving these leaves very little to work with. Or if the sign is zero it will re-absorb what it sent to the leaves. The plant, in turn, sends most available nutrients to where it gets the stonger signal from (i.e. the growing seed). It's not so much that the plant has decided to favor the growing seed, it's more like it has no choice but to favor the seed in these conditions. Likewise, if the flower has not finished growing, the plant will be getting only a muted signal from the ovary and if conditions become terrible, the flower will fail and give up it's control of the plant. It's a built in feature of nearly all plants that serves well as a survival strategy and is not particular to any one group. Dave Evans ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:40:31 EST Subject: Re: CP Botanical Gardens In a message dated 2/20/01 2:18:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, bamrice@ucdavis.edu writes: > A number of people sent me information on sites that were notably bad, or > just had really lame collections. I decided it would be best not to > include those facilities. I thought about creating a "Hall of Shame," but > I already get enough angry email from FAQ-readers wi/out senses of humour > already, so I jettisoned that idea. > The "Hall of Shame" title isn't a bad idea for those of us experienced with CP wanting to see something beyond the ordinary, but I can see how some might find it.....insulting. One thing to remember is that for most people, any CP is beyond ordinary, and exciting to see. So instead of eliminating listings to locations that may be a beginners only chance to see these plants (however unexciting they may be to the jaded palates represented here), might it not be better to have a seperate grouping entitled "Rudimentary Collections" or "Basic Collections?" Hamir the Hermit "If you get caught, don't tell them about me, . The last one who did, well, we tied him to a tree, . Out in the high desert by an ant hill, . Haven't been back there since, guess he's swingin' there still." . [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "philmann" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 03:04:14 +0800 Subject: Australian CPS I'd like to pass on the following information regarding subscriptions and the Seed Bank of the Australian Carnivorous Plants Society and their great journal, Especially to those who are right into Drosera. >From Kris Kopicki Vice President ACPS "I was wondering if you could put a note on the CP digest to say the ACPS now has online forms for membership/renewals and for ordering seed. They can be used for credit card and mail-in payment, and of course all information is encrypted to protect privacy." www.acps.org.au or snail mail: P.O. Box 391 St Agnes, 5097 South Australia Regards Phill Mann www.scarnivores.com ################### From: "Steven Venter" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:18:50 +0200 Subject: Reminder. And a discovery! Hi all This is your monthly reminder to submit photos for inclusion in the Member Gallery. (Theme: In the wild: CPs in habitat) Yesterday, quite co-incidentally, I saw my first-ever CP in the wild! And it's on our farm! I gave my 7yr old son a helluva fright when I suddenly crouched down and yelled out loud. Unfortunately, it's only a lowly Utric :) not a Drosera or some other CP that's actually worth cultivating. But it was still a wonderful experience. I haven't been able to identify it yet, and none of the Utrics described in Pooley's "Field Guide to Wild Flowers of KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Region" come close. I'll be posting photogrpahs in the Gallery, and look forward to having someone identify it. Kind regards Steven Venter Zululand, South Africa AFRICA FOR VISITORS http://goafrica.about.com TALK ABOUT AFRICA http://forums.about.com/ab-goafrica/ About - the Human Internet ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:38:52 +1100 Subject: Borneo Exotics??? Hi all I tried to get onto Borneo exotics web page and could not. Can anyone help me out? Thanks Greg ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:49:18 +1100 Subject: D. hilaris & ramantacea Hi there Regarding propagating D. ramantacea and D. hilaris, there are two methods which SHOULD take. Stem cuttings and root cuttings. Both species are slow growing and I'm not sure about D. hilaris which I'm told is more difficult than D. ramantacea but the latter does not take from leaf cuttings. If you have several plants, the best way would be to sacrafice one by decapitation. The top should grow roots and the base should shoot new growth. Or chop the stem into 1/2inch pieces and the roots into inch long pieces and cover with live sphagnum. I'd like a D. hilaris if there are any available. Check out the photo of D. ramantacea. Regards Greg Bourke My Photos @ http://photos.yahoo.com/sydneycarnivorous ################### From: "Steven Stewart" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:23:53 -0500 Subject: missing digest I seem to have been missed in receiving digest 2469 yesteday, Feb.21, 2001. Could someone re-send? Thank you, Take care, Steven Stewart ################### From: Dan Panetti Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:42:16 -0600 Subject: Hall of Shame Perhaps a more reasonable way to list gardens would be to also list some of the more noteworthy plants at that site. Then all individuals could decide whether it would be worth the trip for themselves. Ex- I may not drive 10 miles out of my way to see an N. Ventricosa ( I probably would, actually, always a possibility of it being misidentified and a there may be other CP not noted that would be interesting), however, to an inexperienced or uninformed plant lover, it may be worth going 100 miles out of the way. I know, I know, run on sentence! Dan Panetti S.E. Wisconsin ################### From: Kirk Martin Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:34:01 -0500 Subject: Heliamphora going downhill I was looking at a Heliamphora that was struggling this morning (started with brown spots on pitcher and then entire pitcher gradually turned yellow over a one week period). It has two other pitchers that look ok. I'm growing it in the tray method under fluorescent lights and it sits in a 5" pot with a clear plastic dome over it "plastic cup". Temps are 60-75. I've heard they are very sensitive about transplanting but I'm concerned that it may be rotting? Anyone have any suggestions or ideas about what might be happening? I really want to save this plant as I've raised it from seed and it just got it's first adult pitchers 6 months ago. thanks, Kirk Martin Lunenburg Mass. USA Kirk W. Martin R.S. Associate Biosafety/Food Safety Officer Harvard University Environmental Health and Safety 46 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA. 02138 TEL: (617)495-2102 FAX: (617)495-0593 Check out our Web Site - http://www.uos.harvard.edu/ehs/ ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:34:13 -0500 Subject: RE: Heliamphora going downhill Hey Kirk, I have pretty good luck growing Helia's OUT of the trays. I give them a good soaking with RO water about every other day. They just didn't do well when I kept them consistently water logged. I would recommend a fungicidal drench and taking them out of the trays so they drain better. I would also recommend waiting to see what others have to say, I only have a few Helia's and am by no means an expert. I am still not having much much germinating Helia seed...... Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Kirk Martin Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 9:40 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP I was looking at a Heliamphora that was struggling this morning (started with brown spots on pitcher and then entire pitcher gradually turned yellow over a one week period). It has two other pitchers that look ok. I'm growing it in the tray method under fluorescent lights and it sits in a 5" pot with a clear plastic dome over it "plastic cup". Temps are 60-75. I've heard they are very sensitive about transplanting but I'm concerned that it may be rotting? Anyone have any suggestions or ideas about what might be happening? I really want to save this plant as I've raised it from seed and it just got it's first adult pitchers 6 months ago. thanks, Kirk Martin Lunenburg Mass. USA Kirk W. Martin R.S. Associate Biosafety/Food Safety Officer Harvard University Environmental Health and Safety 46 Oxford Street Cambridge, MA. 02138 TEL: (617)495-2102 FAX: (617)495-0593 Check out our Web Site - http://www.uos.harvard.edu/ehs/ ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:07:02 EST Subject: Re: Heliamphora going downhill << I was looking at a Heliamphora that was struggling this morning (started with brown spots on pitcher and then entire pitcher gradually turned yellow over a one week period). It has two other pitchers that look ok. I'm growing it in the tray method under fluorescent lights and it sits in a 5" pot with a clear plastic dome over it "plastic cup". Temps are 60-75. I've heard they are very sensitive about transplanting but I'm concerned that it may be rotting? Anyone have any suggestions or ideas about what might be happening? I really want to save this plant as I've raised it from seed and it just got it's first adult pitchers 6 months ago. thanks, Kirk Martin >> Hey Kirk, The tray method may be causing your plant problems in a 5" pot now that the plant is getting larger (and deeper) roots, whereeas it probably would not have caused much of a problem as a seedling with a very limited root system. You could still use the tray method, as long as the pot size (depth wise) is increased significantly so that the roots are kept moist, but definitely not waterlogged all the time. If you transplant, I would transplant the plant and soil intact into a larger pot and additional soil. Their roots can be so brittle at times that they break as easily as thin dry spaghetti noodles. The mature pitchers will die back from time to time, and especially if the humidity suddenly drops. But if this plant has been in this pot and soil for a few years already, it's probably time to transplant. A wider pot will help keep the humidity around the plant higher as well, which is good for the heli's. Michael Catalani ################### From: John Brittnacher Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:28:16 -0800 Subject: ICPS Conference Proceedings on web The Proceedings of the ICPS Conference 2000 are on the ICPS web site: http://www.carnivorousplants.org/news/meeting2000/Intro.html In addition to the text of the proceedings, the web version contains pictures taken by attendees and some slide images from the talks. There are also a few slides from the banquet talk. It isn't too late to send me pictures for inclusion on the site. I am especially interested in slide images from the talks. Please e-mail me off list with pictures and any additions or corrections to the site. ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:25:21 -0500 Subject: ICPS Conference 2001? Any news about a 2001 conference? Steve ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:37:48 +1100 Subject: Utricularia and Stylidium I have some spare seeds of Utricularia lateriflora and Stylidium graminifolium from Tasmania (warm temperate climate) I still also have seed of Drosera auriculata (green and red) and Drosera peltata. I am interested in fresh seed of either Nepenthes maxima, or truncata, highland veitchii, northiana, spatulata, ventricosa, or any hybrid of the above (F1 only) with veitchii as a parent. Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:15:51 -0600 Subject: Aphids I have noticed dead aphids in the open traps of juvenile Dionea and on the leaves of nearby Sarracenia. Did they die of fright? :) Wayne ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:30:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Primitive Nepenthes chamb@u.arizona.edu wrote: > At 09:29 AM 21 02 2001 -0800, you wrote: > >He went on to tell me that he found it near > >the base of Mount Rumpe. This area is several days journey by canoe and > >hiking on foot. He sketched the plant for me and the pitcher itself > >looked like a typical Nepenthes, but the flower was quite strange. He > >said it was a large red single flower and his drawing showed an otherwise > >normal Nepenthes shaped flower. > > ...and cautiously pried the crumpled shred of paper from his clenched fist. > Even as the arrow poison set in, he would not free the notes from his > grasp. We stared in awe at the record of his discovery, and knew from > these bare lines that we too were hopelessly compelled to face the steaming > jungle in a death-struggle for the prize. With apologies to H. Rider Haggard... I need men, Umgassala, to cross the Nepenthes desert, to swim the Ping river filled with crocodiles, to find King Solomon's Heliamphora! Umgassala eyed the razor sharp blade of his battle axe and contemplated the giant hippos, crocodiles, thousand Immpi warriors, mountains, deserts, swamps and other dangerous geological features. "I dunno, Baas, the Wife, She want we to mow the lawn this weekend. Besides, I'd miss Wall Street Week." > ################### From: sean samia Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:15:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mt.Rumpi(No Hoax!!!)PART-2 Hey Listserver! Be patient! I will slowly get to all of you that have e-mailed me. I found the actual drawing that he drew for Ivan Snyder.The pitcher looks like N.khasiana and the flower looks the same as a regular Nepenthes flower, but it is much, much larger. I was looking in the World Almanac and the mountain is listed under Rumpi and to top that, smack-dab on the equator is where it is located. Years ago when I showed all the information I obtained to Leo Song, who I mind you, was quite skeptical at the time, said,and I'm quoting him here,(That if Nepenthes were to grow anywhere in Africa, that's the place it would most likely be). When looking on a map, it's on a straight line to Madagascar. For all you skeptics out there, I've showed the photograph to Orchid specialists who have said, that there are Orchids that look like Nepenthes, but none of them are located in Africa at all. Petiolaris Sean Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ################### From: Pekka Ala-Siuru Date: 23 Feb 2001 03:40:27 EST Subject: moving to SFO Hi all Bay area CP enthusiasts! I (with my family) will move next week (for one year) to San Francisco. Our address is from 03/01/01 Pekka and Maria Ala-Siuru 854 C MacArthur Avenue, The Presidio, San Francisco, CA 94130, USA. cellphone: +358 40 7380642 (Sonera,PacBell) please use SMS text messages (cheap!) email: pekka.ala-siuru@usa.net maria.ala-siuru@usa.net Rick! Please inform about Bay area Cp events! best regards, ..Pekka Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ################### From: Borneo Exotics Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:47:19 +0000 Subject: re: Borneo Exotics??? Hi Greg, That's a little worrying! I was tweaking the html for the navigation buttons today and hope that I didn't disable them! They still work for me, but that doesn't mean they will work for everyone else. Perhaps no-one else! Please would you e-mail me privately and let me know when it was that you tried. There are two other problems with our home page which will be fixed in a few days. One is that no scroll bars appear if needed which I think means that if you are using a non-standard screen shape (e.g. some laptops), you might not be able to see the navigation butttons at all. Whoops! Also, for some (a very few) people the navigation buttons have never worked at all and I couldn't understand why. Seems that the reason is that they use Java and not the superior Javascript and some people have the Java option disabled on their browsers. That too will be fixed next week. Sorry you have had trouble. Best regards, Rob Cantley Borneo Exotics (Pvt) Ltd http://www.borneoexotics.com >Hi all >I tried to get onto Borneo exotics web page and could not. Can anyone help >me out? Thanks >Greg ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:16:45 CST6CDT Subject: St. Louis Carnivorous Plant Society The next meeting of the St. Louis Carnivorous Plant Society will be held Saturday, March 10, 2001 at my house (not at the garden). The meeting will be a potluck lunch and a potting party to pot up plants for our show and sale on June 2. Anyone interested should contact me for details. All are welcome! Susan Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: Michael Pagoulatos Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:57:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stratifying seed in the fridge and auto-bog watering 1. What's your favorite method for stratifying seed (Sarracenia and Drosera) in the fridge (when it's too late to stratify it naturally, outside). 2. Is anyone aware of an existing automated watering system for an artificial bog? I am almost finished designing a completely automated one, and would like to look at existing inventions to perhaps improve my design. Thanks in advance, Michael Pagoulatos Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:45:34 -0500 Subject: heliamphora seed heliamphora seed has to be fresh to get decent germination from it. i got seed which was 1 month old and got maybe 20% germination, if i remember correctly. a friend provided me with a portion of h.sp.neblina from lowrie over a year ago. the seed was definitely older than 1 month at that point. with a portion of only THREE seed (with 1 that looked undeveloped), I knew I wasnt going to get any germination out of that 1. oh well. sundewmatt (normally hates talking about pitcher plants) ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:05:16 -0600 Subject: Re: heliamphora seed I guess that's probably true with most of the tropical origin plants we cultivate. The shortest viability of seed I've seen will have to go to the cacao theobromia - the common chocolate tree. It seems they germinate while in the pod - I had a friend in Hawaii send me some seed from a freshly cut fruit - it took 5 days for me to get them and many had little roots already sticking out of the seed - all on the next day. Darned if they didn't grow like a rocket. Sheesh - no wonder you don't find those on the market. Back OT - I've been looking for heliamphora seed for a while - do I have to breath down someone's neck and have them mail the seed to me right after they harvest it? I've been eyeballing some young H. nutans that will be available in May, but I'd still like to try some seed too. Mike Sundew Sundew wrote: > > heliamphora seed has to be fresh to get decent germination from it. i got > seed which was 1 month old and got maybe 20% germination, if i remember > correctly. a friend provided me with a portion of h.sp.neblina from lowrie > over a year ago. the seed was definitely older than 1 month at that point. > with a portion of only THREE seed (with 1 that looked undeveloped), I knew I > wasnt going to get any germination out of that 1. oh well. > > sundewmatt > (normally hates talking about pitcher plants) ################### From: psher001@odu.edu Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:21:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching Hi Folks: I have just received confirmation of a report that an entire population of S. jonesii was extirpated by poachers. I am still getting details of when this was done but I think it is important to highlight such criminal activities. I simply can't understand how in this day and age someone would be so greedy and irresponsible as to wipe out an entire population. Perhaps this poaching was done several years ago. That doesn't matter. Sarracenia jonesii has always been extremely rare and such activities are reprehensible. Please note that if you illegally collect S. jonesii you may be eligible for a felony conviction. Also note that we have several types of S. jonesii legally available for sale on our catalog at www.pitcherplant.org. THERE IS NO REASON TO COLLECT THESE PLANTS FROM THE WILD, YOU ARE STEALING YOUR OWN HERITAGE!!!! Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:33:25 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching Would it be possible to successfully repair the damage done? Reseed? It's fortunate that we cultivate these things or they'd disappear forever... Mike psher001@odu.edu wrote: > > Hi Folks: > > I have just received confirmation of a report that an entire population of > S. jonesii was extirpated by poachers. I am still getting details of when > this was done but I think it is important to highlight such criminal > activities. I simply can't understand how in this day and age someone would > be so greedy and irresponsible as to wipe out an entire population. Perhaps > this poaching was done several years ago. That doesn't matter. Sarracenia > jonesii has always been extremely rare and such activities are > reprehensible. > > Please note that if you illegally collect S. jonesii you may be eligible > for a felony conviction. Also note that we have several types of S. jonesii > legally available for sale on our catalog at www.pitcherplant.org. THERE IS > NO REASON TO COLLECT THESE PLANTS FROM THE WILD, YOU ARE STEALING YOUR OWN > HERITAGE!!!! > > Sincerely, > > Phil Sheridan > Director > Meadowview Biological > Research Station ################### From: "Keith Sanders" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:46:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching I think you are preaching to the choir. 99.5% of the people on this list are conservationally minded, although I can appreciate the impulse to stand on the soapbox and remind everyone how evil and illegal field collecting is now and again. -Keith On 23 Feb 2001, at 8:27, psher001@odu.edu wrote: > > Please note that if you illegally collect S. jonesii you may be > eligible for a felony conviction. Also note that we have several types > of S. jonesii legally available for sale on our catalog at > www.pitcherplant.org. THERE IS NO REASON TO COLLECT THESE PLANTS FROM > THE WILD, YOU ARE STEALING YOUR OWN HERITAGE!!!! > > Sincerely, > > Phil Sheridan > Director > Meadowview Biological > Research Station Keith Sanders Systems Programmer CLASnet 100 Rolfs Hall 352-846-1990 ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:04:51 -0800 Subject: CP in Movies: 'Evolution' Hi CPers, Following is an e-mail conversation I had with a guy I know at Dream Works, the motion picture production company. >Hi Nathan, > I was looking at the local paper and saw a piece on Dreamworks' Pictures > production of this summers release, 'Evolution'. There is a photo of the > set that appears to have Sarracenia purpurea. What do you know about > that? > -Ivan Hi Ivan I don't doubt it. I heard they had a set where they wanted funky looking plants and ended up using cp's. Leo might know more about it than me, I think the plants came from the Fullerton bog. Later, Nathan ################### From: EdwardK674@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:16:23 EST Subject: New U. calycifida clone In a message dated 02/20/2001 12:14:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: << Hey Ed, The plant you noted in your email (ucaly07.jpg photo) is Utricularia calycifida 'Lavinia Whateley', and is already pretty common in cultivation. It shouldn't be too hard to find. My new cross (ucaly08.jpg, ucaly09.jpg) will get distribution later this year, assuming it is worthy. Probably we'll have some available at the UCDavis plant sale in October. It depends also on CPN publishing backlog. Later Barry >> Hi Barry, Sorry I cut and pasted the wrong pic into my message. I liked all of them very much and wasn't paying close attention when I hit the paste command. Ed ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:04:18 +0000 Subject: Re: primitive _Nepenthes_ Dear Ivan, > Concerning western Nepenthes, I was told a tale Yes, indeed. It seems to be a tale only. > (...) and also found one recently while in Africa searching > for new frog and lizard species. What does "recently" mean here? > This seemed odd to me because I thought there were none in Africa. Odd, indeed. None is presently known from Africa. > He went on to tell me that he found it near > the base of Mount Rumpe. This area is several days journey by canoe and > hiking on foot. He sketched the plant for me and the pitcher itself > looked like a typical Nepenthes, but the flower was quite strange. He > said it was a large red single flower and his drawing showed an otherwise > normal Nepenthes shaped flower. What does "otherwise normal" mean here? _Nepenthes_ usually does form many-flowered inflorescences (composite cymes, remember my last message?) with rather small flowers. > Francois is a very keen recorder of details Does he have a herbarium specimen? This is what I would expect in any event from a keen recorder in Botany! > and an excellent sketcher, as he has much experiance in these in > his work with animals, though he had not seen a Nepenthes flower before. Zoologists usually lack the experience to look at the diagnostically significant details when they observe plants ("they are all sooo similar!"), just like Botanists when they observe animals. I assume your friend did not draw the leaf base and tendril (which would be rather unambiguous), did he? > I have since lost contact with Francois. This is quite typical with such tales. Please notify us if you hear again from him. > Does this story make any sense? Yes. But without a herbarium specimen or any other testable record (photographs, living plants), it is a more or less amusing piece of fiction rather than science. I suspect your friend has seen a harmless _Aristolochia_, some of which can be quite _Nepenthes_-like (especially in the eyes of a Zoologist). Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:15:44 -0500 Subject: RE: heliamphora seed "heliamphora seed has to be fresh to get decent germination from it." This has to be the case. I have seed from the very same source as a colleague of mine, except he sowed his immediately after it was collected. I did not receive my seed until several months later. I followed the exact same protocol as him, and so far...NOTHING. oh, well....at least I have an idea what went wrong. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Sundew Sundew Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:48 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP heliamphora seed has to be fresh to get decent germination from it. i got seed which was 1 month old and got maybe 20% germination, if i remember correctly. a friend provided me with a portion of h.sp.neblina from lowrie over a year ago. the seed was definitely older than 1 month at that point. with a portion of only THREE seed (with 1 that looked undeveloped), I knew I wasnt going to get any germination out of that 1. oh well. sundewmatt (normally hates talking about pitcher plants) ################### From: Richard Ellis Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:42:00 -0700 Subject: N. pervillei on Seychelles 100 rupee note I recently discovered that 100 rupee notes from the Seychelles issued since 1998 have N. pervillei on them. I have a picture of it on: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/8564/stamps/currency.html Rich ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:34:33 +0000 Subject: Re: albino Dear Dave, > However, apparently this plant, while never producing red, does indeed > produce a pink blush to the tips of the tenticals when grown in strong > light. I understand that one in five men have some degree of color > blindness. So can we just assume the author was unable to notice this faint > coloration and this plant is D. 'Albino'? For the time being (noone has described the pink blush plants as a different cultivar yet), this would seem appropriate. > Or is this plant which can > produce faintly pink traps simply D. capensis var alba? D. capensis var. alba is a nomen nudum (no description, no type, nothing of use), i.e. it is effectively nothing. The plant is a plant, i.e. not nothing. Ergo the plant can not be D. capensis var. alba. Taxonomy and nomenclature can be so easy! > Or is it an as of yet un-named cultivar? This is particularly difficult to tell because nothing is a cultivar before it is named. > I'm interested in what to call these various clones > D. c. alba, white fl., and all-green that I have aquired over the years > which all look the same and respond to strong light exactly the same way. At the moment the best fit is in the (described, established, registered) cultivar ' Albino '. If you discover significant differences, you might describe a different cultivar. But a different name can only be used *after* establishment. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "R B" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:29:54 -0800 Subject: Carnivorous Orchid? Anyone know the details of a new carnivorous orchid recently found in Venezuela? Supposedly it has sticky leaves like a sundew which moves as quickly as a Venus flytrap. Ron ################### From: "R B" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:41:09 -0800 Subject: Re: Carnivorous Orchid? I found this reference: Romero G. A., German Carnevali and Ivon Ramirez-Morillo, ARACAMUNIA. THIS NATIVE OF VENEZUELA MAY BE THE FIRST-DESCRIBED CARNIVOROUS ORCHID, Orchids, 1155-1158, (1998). Does anyone have access to the Orchids newsletter? Ron ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:56:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching psher001@odu.edu wrote: > > THERE IS NO REASON TO COLLECT THESE PLANTS FROM THE WILD, YOU ARE STEALING > YOUR OWN > HERITAGE!!!! > It is considered rude to use all caps. I am rather insulted that you think I would collect them. Wayne Morrow ################### From: "Carl Mazur" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:32:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Yet another FAQ page that needs help B, The empires new groove has giant VFT traps in the jungle backgrounds! CJM > > > > > Hey Folks, > > Here's another FAQ page that needs help: > > http://www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq6340.html > > This page lists goofy movies or TV shows that have carnivorous plants in > them. I know I am missing a huge amount here. Aren't there movies like > Dinner with Andre or something like that which have short references to > CP? These can go in here, too. > > Cheers > > Barry > > --------------------- > Dr. Barry Meyers-Rice > bazza@sarracenia.com > Carnivorous Plant FAQ--author > www.sarracenia.com/faq.html > Carnivorous Plant Newsletter--editor > www.carnivorousplants.org > > ################### From: Christoph Belanger Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:56:17 -0500 Subject: "Lowly" Utric Steve, > Unfortunately, it's only a lowly Utric :) not a Drosera or some other CP > that's actually worth cultivating. But it was still a wonderful experience. > I haven't been able to identify it yet, and none of the Utrics described in > Pooley's "Field Guide to Wild Flowers of KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern > Region" come close. A lowly Utirc??? To some of us, Utrics are very worth cultivating, especially if it is something new, different, and beautiful. Just needed to defend a "lowly" Utric...i cant wait to see the pics. Christoph ################### From: "Steven Morris" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:23:33 -0500 XSubject: "Lowly" Utric hi everyone i need your help i am looking for a book called "insect eating plants and how to grow them" if any body has any suggestions on where to find this book i would be ever grateful thanks steven ################### From: jorge_jesus@aeiou.pt Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:54:25 GMT Subject: Hot water and Drosophyllum seeds Hello Does any one has experience in using hot water to make DL seed germinate faster ??? Jorge __________________________________________________________ Mensagem enviada pelo Xekmail: webmail gra'tis do AEIOU http://xekmail.aeiou.pt ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:41:34 +0000 Subject: Re: Hot water and Drosophyllum seeds >Hello >Does any one has experience in using hot water to make DL seed >germinate faster ??? >Jorge > I think I've tried it but with no success. The best and safest way IMO is to rub the seed in some sand paper until the seed coat is roughened. You should get germination in 3-4 weeks this way. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: vsorenson@cnx.net Date: 24 Feb 2001 19:10:35 -0000 Subject: Aracamunia liesneri Hi All, For those interested in Aracamunia I have found the following information so far: Aracamunia liesneri is a monotypic species described by Carnevali & I. Rami'rez in 1989. It is found in Amazonas State of Venezuela at elevations of 1550 meters and was descovered in 1987 by Ronald Liesner, who it was named after. It is found on moss covered streambank in almost closed forest. Flowers white. I also found this(though I suspect it is not correct, kind of like that utric found in florida): "The first carnivorous orchid has been discovered in Venezuela. Sticky leaves trap tiny insects such as fruit flies" I have contacted a few people and am waiting for their replies, so when I get more info I'll send it along. Regards, Kurt ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:10:37 EST Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching << I think you are preaching to the choir. 99.5% of the people on this list are conservationally minded, although I can appreciate the impulse to stand on the soapbox and remind everyone how evil and illegal field collecting is now and again. -Keith >> Phil may be preaching to the choir, but unfortunately there are at least a few members of this singing group who just don't get it. I can tell you for a fact that there are members on this listserve who would think they are doing the plants a favor by removing them, even if they cultivate them for a few years and then return them back to the site. There are others who would be able to dream up a scenario where they are sure the site is about to be destroyed, thereby justifying their actions. Spring is almost here, so maybe this is a good time to remind all of those who are about to trek out into the fields about leaving the plants be. I can also tell folks that this year will be different in the south. I do know that several agencies will be performing frequent checks of bogs, even including helicopter reconassaince. If my understanding is correct, this is due to the drastic reduction of S. leucophylla and alata. I have turned over site locations in southern mississippi, alabama, and the florida panhandle where I know plants are being poached. So before you head off to that famous bog in the florida panhandle that contains many cp species including p.planifolia, know that this year they are being watched by eyes that are very serious about protecting some of the final stands of these plants. Michael Catalani ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:12:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching Who's helicopter? Is this state or Federal? The last Bush administration held the Snowy Owl in contempt, I can't imagine them being excite about Sarracenia except as tax revenue when shipped between states. Anyway, I wish them luck in protecting the Sarrs. Wayne MCATALANI@aol.com wrote: > So before you head off to that famous bog in > the florida panhandle that contains many cp species including p.planifolia, > know that this year they are being watched by eyes that are very serious > about protecting some of the final stands of these plants. > > Michael Catalani ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:37:09 EST Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching In a message dated 2/24/01 2:07:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, MCATALANI@aol.com writes: > Phil may be preaching to the choir, but unfortunately there are at least a > few members of this singing group who just don't get it. I can tell you for > a > fact that there are members on this listserve who would think they are > doing > the plants a favor by removing them, even if they cultivate them for a few > years and then return them back to the site. There are others who would > be > able to dream up a scenario where they are sure the site is about to be > destroyed, thereby justifying their actions. > This brings up an interesting point. Who is the best arbiter of what is in the best interests of a plant population? From what I've seen of Federal and State actions, I don't put too much stock in their judgements. They seem totally incapable of catching people who remove entire populations from a site (as mentioned in the earlier message) but very apt and eager to prosecute the individuals who decide to remove one or two plants from a site, and seem more intent on extracting their pound of flesh than protecting or preserving the actual plants. Obviously, the removal of all of a population is bad, because then there's no way for the population to regenerate itself. Certainly removing a significant portion can weaken a population and is also bad. And yes, if the population is small enough, even one plant can make up that "significant portion." But if a site is destined to be razed to make way for a new housing development, or to widen a highway or whatever, aren't we morally bound to rescue a few plants? And granted, I suppose it's possible one could fabricate a justification that a site is being destroyed, but it seems pretty straightforward to me whether a site actually is or not (big signs proclaiming the appearance of a new shopping mall and the bulldozers moving in...). Of course, going into a U.S. federal park and removing a plant or two for a souvenir seems rather ludicrous to me considering you could just as easily buy the darn thing from a legal source (and most likely accurately identified) for under 20 bucks. Why take the risk? Hamir the Hermit "If you get caught, don't tell them about me, The last one who did, well, we tied him to a tree, Out in the high desert by an ant hill, Haven't been back there since, guess he's swingin' there still." [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:39:55 -0800 Subject: Re: Primitive Nepenthes >>I suspect your friend has seen a harmless _Aristolochia_, some of which can be quite _Nepenthes_-like (especially in the eyes of a Zoologist). Kind regards Jan Hi Jan and all, The drawing Francois made of both the flower and pitcher was perfectly recognizable as Nepenthes. The only ambiguity being the large size of the flower, which he indicated was a few inches in diameter. Might a more primitive Nepenthes have a larger flower? You said that what are considered to be the most primitive Nepenthes are found in Madagascar and Seychelles. How do you reckon these got there? Did they cross the Indian Ocean, or did they come from Africa? Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: "Hideka Kobayashi" Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:24:56 -0600 Subject: Carnivorous orchid Ron, I think the info you have is just a little exaggerated. No, it does not have sticky leaves, and does not move. The plant has a glandular ligules, and that's it. The plant looks very small and rather unattractive. Sorry to dissapoint you, but that's what I read. The magazine (not a newsletter) is fairly popular, and from what I understand, many libraries and botanical gardens have issues. ################### From: CALIFCARN@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:26:55 EST Subject: Re: California Carnivores Not Moving Hey Kids: Just a short message to inform ya'll that California Carnivores is NOT relocating as we announced a couple of months ago. The owner of the property found out about the "eviction" and claims it was all a big mistake. We can now stay... rent free! We wish we knew this back in November. Thanks to the hundred or so people who offered help in the move. If you want to come and help us paint and refiberglass...you're more than welcome! Th-th-th-that's all folks! Peter D'Amato ################### From: "Dave Meyer" Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 20:32:42 -0500 Subject: Fungus Gnats Can anyone suggest a treatment for fungus Gnats? I have tried using sundews, Butterworts and flypaper traps and have put a serious dent in the populations for a period of time but then the seem to swarm back and the plants have not yet put up enough new leaves to keep up. I'm looking for a better way to deal with both the eggs and larvae of these pests. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks -Dave ################### From: Kevin Cook Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:45:33 +0930 Subject: Strange Nepenthes In one of the local nurseries I saw a N. truncata x alata with very odd leaves. The end of each leaf (ie the end closest to the pitcher) has an irregular edge which looks exactly like the wings of the pitcher. I've got a N. mirablis with serrated edges, but this is entirely different. I'd never heard of such a mutation (if that's what it is) and wondered if anyone has seen this before. Regards, Kevin Cook Darwin Australia ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:54:25 -0600 Subject: Spagnum and Grass Fires Does anyone know if Spagnum actually benefits from seasonal grass fires, and if so can the effect be duplicated in cultivation? Grass ash? Mike ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:36:00 +0100 Subject: Re: Fungus Gnats > Can anyone suggest a treatment for fungus Gnats? I had some trouble a couple of month ago with gnat larvae who ate up my entire population of _D. callistos_ and all freshly set _D. echinoblastus_ gemmae. grrrr... (anyone who care spare some gemmae??? ;o) ) Someone of this list told me, that one can use a product named "Gnatrol" as somehow natural solution: It consist of _Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis_ and it is availible from http://www.ghorganics.com The product would have been rather expensive for me, since I would have to pay an absurd amount of money for oversea shipping as well. So I went to a local nursery and asked wether I could purchase it from them. Alas, no, but they recommended a German brand named "Carbosit" (activ ingr.: carbofusan) to me. Chemical, yes, but apparently safe: I tested it on _D. pulchella_ and _D. scorpioides_: Both showed no harm. Hope this helps. Marcus ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:22:13 -0500 Subject: FW: Carnivorous Orchid? We have this journal in our library. The Librarian found the article and set it aside for me, so I will get it on Monday. It's time to go home, and I don't feel like walking all the way across the gardens. I will fill you in Monday! Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org -----Original Message----- Behalf Of R B Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 2:49 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP I found this reference: Romero G. A., German Carnevali and Ivon Ramirez-Morillo, ARACAMUNIA. THIS NATIVE OF VENEZUELA MAY BE THE FIRST-DESCRIBED CARNIVOROUS ORCHID, Orchids, 1155-1158, (1998). Does anyone have access to the Orchids newsletter? Ron ################### From: Andrew Marshall Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:47:50 -0800 Subject: fungus gnats > >Can anyone suggest a treatment for fungus Gnats? I have tried using sundews, >Butterworts and flypaper traps and have put a serious dent in the populations >for a period of time but then the seem to swarm back and the plants have >not yet >put up enough new leaves to keep up. I'm looking for a better way to deal with >both the eggs and larvae of these pests. Any info would be greatly >appreciated. > >Thanks >-Dave HI Dave, I have used Pinguicula moranenesis with great success but, if that isn't working for you, then I would try Bt. There is a specific formulation that can be purchased at any decent nursery. Bacillus thurigensis (not sure of the exact spelling) Bt... formulated for fungus gnats. It doesn't hurt plants at all. Wipes out the gnats in one or two applications for sure! If you can't find any where you are, let me know off the list and I will assist you in finding it. Best wishes Andrew Marshall http://cascadecarnivorous.plant.org ################### From: chamb@u.arizona.edu Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:07:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching At 05:45 PM 24 02 2001 -0800, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/24/01 2:07:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, >MCATALANI@aol.com writes: >But if a site is destined to be razed to make way for a new housing >development, or to widen a highway or whatever, aren't we morally >bound to rescue a few plants? I don't think so. There's little or no guarantee they'll live longer in the pot than on the margin of the construction zone. The Sarracenia (and representatives with locality data) are already in cultivation. If you're going to "save" something, how about the Carex and Scirpus spp. which nobody grows? But what really needs saving is the habitat - which saves ALL its constituents. >And granted, I suppose it's possible >one could fabricate a justification that a site is being destroyed, >but it seems pretty straightforward to me whether a site actually is >or not (big signs proclaiming the appearance of a new shopping mall >and the bulldozers moving in...). It could be that an "official" salvage operation, led by a botanical garden or much-maligned state/federal agency will commence the next day. Some laws may require that certain rare species be salvaged prior to construction. Talk to the land owners to get the full story. Better yet, talk with the botanical gardens/native plant groups and get them interested in a large-scale salvage intended for re-introduction to the wild. Michael ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:49:59 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching I was always under the impression that if a site had endangered species on it that it couldn't be razed by law unless arrangements could be made by the government to protect or relocate the species in question. Naturally there are loopholes... In any case, if that is true then there is absolutely no reason to go in and "rescue" the plants. If razing is to be done, check with the government to see if they are aware of the plants. Additionally, if you're so concerned about endangered species, then purchase seed and plants from authorized resellers and propogate them in culture and perhaps help replace them where they've been eradicated... As long as the species is preserved in cultivation, then morals are not an issue when it comes to development. Going and breaking the law harvesting the plants can be as immoral as the development in the first place - you'll go to jail while the developers who have followed the proper channels to get permision to build will get rich. Your energies are better used petitioning the state for better protection and informing them of endangered species in the area. Mike chamb@u.arizona.edu wrote: > > At 05:45 PM 24 02 2001 -0800, you wrote: > >In a message dated 2/24/01 2:07:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, > >MCATALANI@aol.com writes: > > >But if a site is destined to be razed to make way for a new housing > >development, or to widen a highway or whatever, aren't we morally > >bound to rescue a few plants? > > I don't think so. There's little or no guarantee they'll live longer in the > pot than on the margin of the construction zone. The Sarracenia (and > representatives with locality data) are already in cultivation. If you're > going to "save" something, how about the Carex and Scirpus spp. which > nobody grows? But what really needs saving is the habitat - which saves > ALL its constituents. > > >And granted, I suppose it's possible > >one could fabricate a justification that a site is being destroyed, > >but it seems pretty straightforward to me whether a site actually is > >or not (big signs proclaiming the appearance of a new shopping mall > >and the bulldozers moving in...). > > It could be that an "official" salvage operation, led by a botanical garden > or much-maligned state/federal agency will commence the next day. Some > laws may require that certain rare species be salvaged prior to > construction. Talk to the land owners to get the full story. Better yet, > talk with the botanical gardens/native plant groups and get them interested > in a large-scale salvage intended for re-introduction to the wild. > > Michael ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:46:49 -0500 Subject: RE: Carnivorous Orchid? Ok, here is what I found... _Aracamunia liesneri_ was one of 24 new species of plants found in 1987 during a scientific expedition to Cerro Aracamuni in Venezuela. The orchid was not yet proven carnivorous at the time of publication, but it has a few very interesting characteristics. First of all, the tepuis from which it was found are very boggy, and are also home to various _Utricularia_, _Drosera_, and _Heliamphora_. The leaf axils of this orchid produce a ligulelike structure that has a sticky tip, it is these structures that are being considered as the trapping mechanism. The anatomy of the ligules are being studied by Richard Keating, PhD, Southern Illinois University at Carbondale. The results are being analyzed for future publication. The last paragraph of the article reads as follows: "This plant may also be in immediate danger of extinction, because its habitat is being heavily disturbed by the activities of gold miners and the civil and military authorities who try to displace them from tepuis and other protected areas in southern Venezuela. Another scientific expedition to Aracamuni is urgently needed to collect further material for research and perhaps cultivation, and also to study the ecology of this novelty in situ." This last paragraph gives an example of one more trait that is becoming so common among true carnivorous plants...the possibility of extinction in the wild. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Steve LaWarre Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 8:33 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP We have this journal in our library. The Librarian found the article and set it aside for me, so I will get it on Monday. It's time to go home, and I don't feel like walking all the way across the gardens. I will fill you in Monday! Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org -----Original Message----- Behalf Of R B Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 2:49 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP I found this reference: Romero G. A., German Carnevali and Ivon Ramirez-Morillo, ARACAMUNIA. THIS NATIVE OF VENEZUELA MAY BE THE FIRST-DESCRIBED CARNIVOROUS ORCHID, Orchids, 1155-1158, (1998). Does anyone have access to the Orchids newsletter? Ron ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:06:02 +0000 Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching At the last cactus society meeting I went to, the speaker was very vehement about how she'd seen in the wild varieties only known from single locations which were about to be destroyed by bulldozers, but local enthusiasts weren't allowed to rescue the plants. If that's true, Federal and State law is an ass. I suggest subscribers to this forum should keep a lookout for large quantities of mature S jonesii coming on the market. In my experience it's not a fast grower (mine came from an unimpeachable source 5 years ago) so any large populations in cultivation must be regarded as suspicious. NigelH ################### From: chamb@u.arizona.edu Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:32:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching At 09:13 AM 26 02 2001 -0800, you wrote: > >At the last cactus society meeting I went to, the speaker was very >vehement about how she'd seen in the wild varieties only known from >single locations which were about to be destroyed by bulldozers, but >local enthusiasts weren't allowed to rescue the plants. If that's >true, Federal and State law is an ass. That's not the case here in Tucson, Arizona, where the Tucson Cactus and Succulent Society is very active in salvage work, and salvage is required for our local rare species like the Pima Pineapple Cactus. I can't speak for the Sarracenia situation in the SE USA though, since I don't live there. Michael ################### From: "Joe Harden" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:27:48 -0600 Subject: Hello once again folks I think I have been lifted of the curse... My email seems to be fully working once again, my computer has been repaired, and I finally got the luxury of spare time in my hands. I know my webpage, Carnivorous Kingdom, hasn't seen updates in half a year, I hope to be changing that soon if I can get my copy of Frontpage to work again, and hopefully get back in touch with some of the people I used to chat with. If you are one of those folks, please drop me a line so I can start building up my address book again. Plus, I haven't received any email for quite some time, so if anything big of news has happened (ie, new books or such) in the past few months has occured please let me know! Joe Harden Http://www.carnivorous-kingdom.com ################### From: "Steve Klitzing" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:39:41 -0800 Subject: Primitive Nepenthes The primitive Nepenthes on different sides of the Indian Ocean probably dates from the time of the breakup of Pangea or Gondwonaland (which one was the supercontinent, I forget). The west coast of Australia has Baobab trees identical to those found on the east coast of Africa. So, perhaps Nepenthes, or some of their common ancestors, predate the breakup of the supercontinent. Another interesting adaptation was among lions and rhinos of Africa and Australia. The Australian lions and rhinos were marsupial, and didn't make it, probably due to the appearance of humans whose presence likely caused their disappearance in less than a thousand years. Does anyone know why Nepenthes developed the male/female plant adaptation? I heard one scientist say that this occurs to provide greater genetic diversity and genetic shuffling, which also makes it possible to create entirely new species after tens of thousands of generations. The mutants that survive and adapt bear a resemblance to the original species, but they have their own unique traits. So, Nepenthes are probably more advanced plants than VFT's, heliamphora, Drosera, and Darlingtonia. Nepenthes, in an immature state, looks a lot like a Drosera, except that its sticky pads are really internal. Which makes one wonder if the proto-Nepenthes was a drosera which had curled leaves that helped it trap rain in addition to its sticky hairs. Over time, the curled leaves became a pitcher, and the sticky hairs and digestive fluid separated, with the sticky hairs pointing downward, and the sticky fluid and rain water becoming the digestive pit. And, over time, it evolved into dioeceous (sp?) behavior and a vining habit emerging from the center leaf whorl. ---Steve Klitzing ################### From: "R B" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:07:49 -0800 Subject: Re: Carnivorous Orchid? Thanks for the summary Steve! >The anatomy of the ligules are being studied by Richard Keating, PhD, >Southern Illinois University at Carbondale. >The results are being analyzed for future publication. Have these results been published? This was a 1998 article, so it has been about 3 years now. Ron ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:55:57 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching I guess tying yourself to the cactus would probably be a little uncomfortable too... :) When it come to the government you're going to see good stuff and bad stuff. They're people after all and have to sit and listen to radicals on one side and radicals on the other side and try to make decisions that will make them happy. In most cases one side is clearly disadvantaged. The developers have an advantage - they don't have to resort to desperate acts to get what they want. And time is on their side. The environmentalists are hurt by acts of "rescue" that make all of them appear to be criminals, and acts that the public ridicules - like tying themselves to trees. So you have these guys who build really nice houses, neighborhoods, communities, and you have these guys who appear to be loud mouthed troublemakers - who you going to vote for? Professionalism is an absolute must all steps of the way, and if we don't get our way - count it as a battle lost and move on to the next battle. Who's going to take us seriously if members of us or who appear to be of us go out and do stupid things? The media eats that up. There are probably endangered species living on just about every square mile of the continent - surely we can't make the entire continent a park (unless they make some vast additions to the SSI :) The house you're living in certainly displaced species of plants and animals. If you can do it, why do you say others can't? It's about balance and proper management of our resources and ecology. Right now there's a lot of chaos because both sides are saying all-or-none and not giving much at all. What can we do but try and live in this mess, try not to give the government or media any reason to ridicule our side and try to find that balance that will allow us and future generations to have the homes we want, eat fresh food from crops and ranches and still not destroy our ecology while doing it... Already there's a slow building of environmental awareness amoungst the public. Virtually every nature show that comes on educates very well on nature and always slips in how that nature is slowly being eaten away by progress. Mindsets are evolving, and even some businesses have started being more ecologically mindful. It's just a matter of time and victory by attrition. Radicals don't help in the least and do more harm than good. So what if they saved that tree or those plants - thousands of others will be lost because of the loss of credibility due to acts like that. This is probably a little off the topic - I doubt the poaching had anything to do with "rescue" and most likely due to the fact that they can be sold at $25+ bucks a pop... Mike Nigel Hurneyman wrote: > > At the last cactus society meeting I went to, the speaker was very > vehement about how she'd seen in the wild varieties only known from > single locations which were about to be destroyed by bulldozers, but > local enthusiasts weren't allowed to rescue the plants. If that's > true, Federal and State law is an ass. > > I suggest subscribers to this forum should keep a lookout for large > quantities of mature S jonesii coming on the market. In my experience > it's not a fast grower (mine came from an unimpeachable source 5 years > ago) so any large populations in cultivation must be regarded as > suspicious. > > NigelH ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:56:21 -0500 Subject: RE: Carnivorous Orchid? I am interested in finding out! Carbondale is very close to my old stomping ground, I went to school at Eastern Illinois University, just north of SIU, and my in-laws are just a few hours north of Carbondale. I will let you know what I find out, I will make a few calls today. Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of R B Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:52 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Thanks for the summary Steve! >The anatomy of the ligules are being studied by Richard Keating, PhD, >Southern Illinois University at Carbondale. >The results are being analyzed for future publication. Have these results been published? This was a 1998 article, so it has been about 3 years now. Ron ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:11:52 -0500 Subject: RE: Sarracenia jonesii poaching Timing is everything when it comes to plant rescue. I would urge anyone living in areas of good CP habitat to plan ahead. Two years ago Frederik Meijer Gardens horticulture staff were involved in a woodland plant rescue. An area of beautiful old woods was set to be cleared for a highway beltline. We applied for permits, got neighbors and the Land Conservancy involved, and scheduled times when staff and volunteers could dig and transplant. We relocated hundreds of native trillium, Arisaema, Ferns, Orchids, etc., etc. to our native woodland garden here at FMG and to several other public nature preserves. The key was having all the paper work together well ahead of time. It would not have worked, had we tried to get in there the weekend before the bulldozers rolled. What I am saying is this; even if you live by an area you believe will never be destroyed, find out what to do, what papers you need, who will help, which organizations will take plants, etc. before destruction is even a rumor... Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:37:28 -0600 Subject: Rescue Howto [was Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching] Would those of you with direct experience in this like Steven and others mind assembling a "Rescue Howto" to serve as reference for those of us who have never had direct exposure to the system? Mike Steve LaWarre wrote: > > Timing is everything when it comes to plant rescue. I would urge anyone > living in areas of good CP habitat to plan ahead. Two years ago Frederik > Meijer Gardens horticulture staff were involved in a woodland plant rescue. > An area of beautiful old woods was set to be cleared for a highway beltline. > We applied for permits, got neighbors and the Land Conservancy involved, and > scheduled times when staff and volunteers could dig and transplant. We > relocated hundreds of native trillium, Arisaema, Ferns, Orchids, etc., etc. > to our native woodland garden here at FMG and to several other public nature > preserves. The key was having all the paper work together well ahead of > time. It would not have worked, had we tried to get in there the weekend > before the bulldozers rolled. > > What I am saying is this; even if you live by an area you believe will > never be destroyed, find out what to do, what papers you need, who will > help, which organizations will take plants, etc. before destruction is even > a rumor... > > Steven R. LaWarre > Grower > Frederik Meijer Gardens > 1000 E Beltline NE > Grand Rapids MI 49525 > (616)975-3175 > slawarre@meijergardens.org ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:07:08 EST Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching << Who's helicopter? Is this state or Federal? Wayne >> The folks getting involved are quite diligent, and some are not linked to a state or federal agency. They have been very active in the past in protecting different species of rare plants, and are now seriously watching cp sites as well. It may be hard for us to believe, but there are other species of plants native to the gulf coast that are in worst shape than cp. More attention will be given this year to bogs that are in less populated areas away from the coast, which is where many of the nice cp sites are located. The reason that cp sites weren't watched as carefully before by some of the folks getting involved probably had a lot to do with the location of rare plants to the location of the unknowing public. Plants like the "sea oat" grow right on the beach, and are surrounded by hundreds of thousands of tourists each year. The location in which they grow makes it very likely that person would come along and pluck it for use as home decor, oblivious to the fact that it is a protected plant. (Fortunately, many of the sea oats along the beach have signs which state that it is unlawful to pick them.) Monitoring efforts this year are broadening. I don't know the total extent of the effort, but I do know that it includes mississippi, alabama, and enough of the florida panhandle to include S. minor sites. They are not just watching federal lands, either. They have contacted some private land owners and will be monitoring those sites as well. Michael Catalani ################### From: john green Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:42:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Adrian Slack book Steven Morris [mailto:smorris01@hotmail.com] wrote: > i need your help i am looking for a book called "insect > eating plants and how to grow them" if any body has any > suggestions on where to find this book i would be ever > grateful The only place I've ever been able to find it was my local public library. The kids keep it pretty well checked out so sometimes it's a bit hard to get. It's a great book I'd like to add to my collection (I almost considered "losing" it next time I check it out, but that wouldn't be fair to the kids) but I prefer "The Savage Garden." John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: john green Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:44:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Stratifying seed in the fridge and auto-bog watering Michael Pagoulatos wrote: > 1. What's your favorite method for stratifying seed > (Sarracenia and Drosera) in the fridge (when it's too > late to stratify it naturally, outside). I fill a pot or seed starter tray with soil, water it well, sow the seeds on top, put the whole thing inside a plastic bag, push it to the back of the fridge and forget it for 4 to 6 weeks. I mark the planting date on it somewhere (so I know when to take it out) then put it under lights. That's worked best for me. > 2. Is anyone aware of an existing automated watering system > for an artificial bog? I am almost finished designing a > completely automated one, and would like to look at existing > inventions to perhaps improve my design. I have a great automated watering system that's cheap and kind of mimics nature. I put my outdoor bog right under the rain gutter. Even if it's a small shower, almost all the water is directed right into my bog, flooding it temporarily. It's cheap, but it does break down occasionally (hot, dry spells). During those times, I also have water collected into a 32 gallon rubbermaid trash can, and I can supplement from there when necessary. Total cost: $8 for the trash can, and a little bit of time doing hand watering (but it's not like I don't spend time every evening hovering over the bog checking things out). John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Eric Schlosser Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:44:37 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Mike Vanecek wrote: > This is probably a little off the topic - I doubt the poaching had > anything to do with "rescue" and most likely due to the fact that they > can be sold at $25+ bucks a pop... I hope Phil will pass on more information when he gets some. For my part I doubt anyone can make money worth the trouble by driving to a remote and secret jonesii site, hiking through the woods and by poaching all the remnant poor looking plants. It is way easier to fill a truck with S.flava in FL and sell them as VFTs. The profit is probably indirect. Maybe because land is no longer worth protecting once the protected species gets extinct and may now be developed. And yes, an eccentric (and criminal) CP-lover could have taken (for personal use) what could be found (thinking there's always more), but was mistaken. These sites are usually small! Finally, especially if noone looked for several years, they may have disappeared because they were outcompeted by other plants. Today the Appalachian mountains are not what they used to be when W.Bartram lived. Don't expect big numbers of plants on the market. Rather support organisations like the TNC that protect sites like that and those, lucky enough to grow S.rubra ssp.jonesii already, double check the ID and start propagating and sharing, so everyone has one soon. Rescueing species is a different and complex task. If everybody starts digging up plants this won't help. I wonder how long trans-plantations last without human attention. Habitat conservation is the best way of protection with hardly any alternative. Eric ################### From: "Rinat" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:00:27 +0200 Subject: Genlisea uncinata: wanted! One more on the list! Hello everybody, I'm Herve Huet, member of the French and Israeli CP societies. I'm growing CPs from several years, and I like, for fun, to put them in tissue culture (or the other way around: to start introducing my species in tissue culture first.). I rather prefer to cultivate large size species or form. Thus, I'm sending this electronic bottle to the CP lovers virtual ocean, because I'm looking desperately for Genlisea uncinata. So, if someone is growing it and is willing to provide me some in any form (seeds, cuttings, plantlets, tissue culture,.), I would be extremely glad. Thanks in advance and pleased email me back, Herve. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:28:09 EST Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching << >But if a site is destined to be razed to make way for a new housing >development, or to widen a highway or whatever, aren't we morally >bound to rescue a few plants? >> Most of us want to do the right thing. Doing the right thing not only means digging up plants we believe are doomed, but also going through all the right procedures. (Like what Steven LaWarre described) Also, communicate to others your intent. Why not post a message here telling everyone that you have found a site that may need saving? Some of us are very familiar with the areas of the gulf, and would want to know if a certain bog is about to be destroyed. Also, there may be other plant species besides cp that need rescuing at the site, so other groups and societies should be informed as well. If you secretly head to a field with a shovel in hand under the guise of saving the plants from immenent doom, then to the plants in the field you look no different than the poacher who was there last week. But if you are vocal and forthcoming in your intentions, and you go through all the right steps, then you are truly the plants best friend. Michael Catalani ################### From: tmalcolm@islandnet.com (Tim Malcolm) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:31:46 -0800 Subject: Web Page and Toronto CPers? Hi folks. A couple of things: 1.) I've made a web page, have a look if you'd like: http://islandnet.com/~tmalcolm. 2.) I'm going to be in Toronto for the first 3 weeks of march. Any CPers there who would like to get together? That's all. tim. tmalcolm@islandnet.com ################### From: MCATALANI@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:44:38 EST Subject: Re: Strange Nepenthes << In one of the local nurseries I saw a N. truncata x alata with very odd leaves. The end of each leaf (ie the end closest to the pitcher) has an irregular edge which looks exactly like the wings of the pitcher. I've got a N. mirablis with serrated edges, but this is entirely different. I'd never heard of such a mutation (if that's what it is) and wondered if anyone has seen this before. >> I haven't seen it on this particular hybrid. Apparantly it is common for a few species of nep to produce these wings on the tendrils, at least during part of their life. My typical N. rafflesiana will produce the winged tendrils for a short time in the plants life, then revert back to normal tendrils. The leaf tapers into what appears to be a very narrow leaf leading to the pitcher. N. rafflesiana var "alata" produces frilled tendrils that are beautifully colored as well. Michael Catalani ################### From: "Stefan P. Wolf" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:17:07 +0100 Subject: Re: Hello once again folks Hi Joe! > Plus, I haven't received any email for quite some time, so if > anything big of news has happened (ie, new books or such) in > the past few months has occured please let me know! For regular news on CP books I'd recommend you subscribe to my free eMail newsletter. I'm specialized in CP books and media. Just drop me a line and/or have a look at my site. Best regards, Stefan. -- Dipl.-Inform. Stefan P. Wolf ................................................ mail : Zehlendorfer Str. 69, 24111 Kiel, GERMANY tel: (+49 431) 16975232 ** fax: (+49 431) 697568 Carnivorous Plants >>> http://www.karnivoren.com ................................................ ################### From: "Steve Alton" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:12:46 -0000 Subject: Calling Dean Cook I can't seem to get a message through to Dean on either or If he's reading this, could he advise? Cheers, Steve Alton ################### From: "Stefan P. Wolf" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:19:27 +0100 Subject: SORRY! In the millisecond after I pressed "send" I saw that this went to the list instead of Joe privately as intended, sorry! Ashamed, Stefan. -- Dipl.-Inform. Stefan P. Wolf ................................................ mail : Zehlendorfer Str. 69, 24111 Kiel, GERMANY tel: (+49 431) 16975232 ** fax: (+49 431) 697568 Carnivorous Plants >>> http://www.karnivoren.com ................................................ ################### From: "Keith Sanders" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:46:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Calling Dean Cook He's out of the office at a plant show somewhere - I ordered some stuff from him a couple of weeks ago, and he sent out messages saying he would be gone until around the first of the month (March). -Keith On 27 Feb 2001, at 4:20, Steve Alton wrote: > > I can't seem to get a message through to Dean on either > or > > If he's reading this, could he advise? > > Cheers, > > Steve Alton Keith Sanders Systems Programmer CLASnet 100 Rolfs Hall 352-846-1990 ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:29:54 -0500 Subject: re: Genlisea uncinata Herve, You will probably have a difficult time finding someone with extra G.uncinata, unless someone has it in tissue culture. I have a single plant which is one of the slowest growing CP I have ever had. It has very few leaves and the first time it tried to flower, the stalk died. It's now got another stalk coming up which is already a few inches tall but I have little hope as the last time seemed promising as well. Sadly, the 1 of 2 times I tried leaf cuttings, the leaves just sat there and then finally died. If the flowers get as tall as I think they do, my guess is it takes about a year for it to grow from a noticeable bud to a full flower! I am not kidding when I say these are THE SLOWEST growing of my CP! matt (normally sundewmatt) I Hello everybody, I'm Herve Huet, member of the French and Israeli CP societies. I'm growing CPs from several years, and I like, for fun, to put them in tissue culture (or the other way around: to start introducing my species in tissue culture first.). I rather prefer to cultivate large size species or form. Thus, I'm sending this electronic bottle to the CP lovers virtual ocean, because I'm looking desperately for Genlisea uncinata. So, if someone is growing it and is willing to provide me some in any form (seeds, cuttings, plantlets, tissue culture,.), I would be extremely glad. Thanks in advance and pleased email me back, Herve. ################### From: Eric Schlosser Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:15:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: re: Genlisea uncinata On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Sundew Sundew wrote: > Sadly, the 1 of 2 times I > tried leaf cuttings, the leaves just sat there and then finally died. If > the flowers get as tall as I think they do, my guess is it takes about a > year for it to grow from a noticeable bud to a full flower! I am not > kidding when I say these are THE SLOWEST growing of my CP! I don't fully agree. Ok., G.uncinata is growing much slower than G.violacea or lobata, but it is bigger as well! From my experience it grows at a comparable rate as G.hispidula and can easily be reproduced from leaf cuttings. From seed it can reach flowering size in one or two seasons and that is much faster than most of my other CP's including several Drosera. It is not a lazy flowerer and sends up spikes appearantly more often than it can afford, since they are indeed hard to get to flower. On the other hand side I didn't give them the right care lately. Eric ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:44:12 -0500 Subject: re: Primitive Nepenthes Steve, there's a great little animated GIF showing the break up of Pangaea @ http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/glossary/Contdrift.shtml It could be a bit larger, but helps to understand Nepenthes distribution, especially N. khasiana from Assam, India. BTW, I'm missing Digest 2471. What was the verdict on the African Nepenthes? Gary Kong __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: "R B" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:08:38 -0800 Subject: Self-Cannibalizing Carnivorous Plant! Hey, one of my sundews has started to eat one of its own leaves. It has a leaf that had dried out and started to shrivel up. It was next to a healthy leaf, and the healthy leaf has now curled itself around the dried leaf and is digesting it! Ron ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:58:02 EST Subject: S. purpurea in Iowa Hi All, I have only seen a CP in the wild once, and on several geographic location maps, I have seen that S. purpurea purpurea is in NE Iowa. I live in Eastern Nebraska, so that is not a ungodly drive to see some pitcherplants in the wild. Would anyone be willing to give me locations to see them? I have no intentions of ripping out specimens, as they are readily available as seed from the ICPS seedbank or as plants for as low as $5.00 from some nurseries. Any help would be appreciated and you can e-mail me privately. Any other CP in the area would be a bonus. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:00:57 EST Subject: New Clarke Book Hi All and especially Mr. Clarke, Last I heard, the new Nepenthes book would be released in the US around March, which is just days away. I have looked at some online sources and it's not mentioned yet. Is it still on schedule and if so, where can it be obtained? Any chance of being able to order signed copies, Charles? :) Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: HmrTheHrmt@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:21:33 EST Subject: Re: Sarracenia jonesii poaching In a message dated 2/26/01 11:48:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, Eric.Schlosser@urz.uni-heidelberg.de writes: > The profit is probably indirect. Maybe because land is no longer worth > protecting once the protected species gets extinct and may now be > developed. And yes, an eccentric (and criminal) CP-lover could have taken > (for personal use) what could be found (thinking there's always more), but > was mistaken. These sites are usually small! Finally, especially if noone > looked for several years, they may have disappeared because they were > outcompeted by other plants. Today the Appalachian mountains are not what > they used to be when W.Bartram lived. > Good points here, and certainly not one that had crossed my mind. Here in Southern California I have seen situations where a brushfire of uncertain origin sweeps through an area, killing the protected Oaks or Joshua Trees and then, lo and behold! a few years later up go the housing or condominium developments (which could have gone up anyway, but the fees for the permits to remove the protected trees, while living, are quite expensive.) This could merely be coincidence, but it seems to happen a little too frequently for that. It would be difficult to know if that was the case in this situation since it wasn't mentiuoned whether the site was on public or private land. The other scenario I could also envision occuring (and would certainly be one of those major grey areas whereby someone could justify "rescuing" plants that really are only in minimal, if any, danger). I recall visiting a friend in Georgia and he brought me out to a site owned by his family being used as a Christmas tree farm that had a small swampy area wherein were growing some majestic-looking S. flava. Unfortunately, the small swampy area was heavily encroached by shrubs and small trees which were shading out the flavas. My friend even mentioned that when he was a teenager there had been 3-4 times as many plants (He was in his early thirties at the time we were there). The site itself was undisturbed by any undue human activity because it was too swampy for them to grow x-mas trees in, and I guess they got a kick out of owning a spot of land that had some of those "odd bug eatin' plants" on it. I suggested perhaps a controlled burn to get rid of the shrubs might help, but with the proximity of the x-mas trees, that idea didn't go over so well. I could easily imagine if I were to go back today, ten years later on, the flavas would be completely gone. In a message dated 2/26/01 1:39:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, MCATALANI@aol.com writes: > Most of us want to do the right thing. Doing the right thing not only means > digging up plants we believe are doomed, but also going through all the > right > procedures. (Like what Steven LaWarre described) Also, communicate to > others > your intent. Why not post a message here telling everyone that you have > found > a site that may need saving? Some of us are very familiar with the areas of > the gulf, and would want to know if a certain bog is about to be destroyed. > Also, there may be other plant species besides cp that need rescuing at the > site, so other groups and societies should be informed as well. If you > secretly head to a field with a shovel in hand under the guise of saving > the > plants from immenent doom, then to the plants in the field you look no > different than the poacher who was there last week. But if you are vocal > and > forthcoming in your intentions, and you go through all the right steps, > then > you are truly the plants best friend. > I agree with you that, whenever possible, channels should be followed. On the flip side, let's consider, as a supposition, say you are on a road trip, or traveling, or like that. Obviously, you're in an area that you're not going to have been tracking development in. As you're driving around, you see a site with active construction going on and there's a pile of dirt that's been bulldozed up and sticking out of it you can see Sarracenia (or Darlingtonia) pitchers. Would it be O.K. to salvage whatever plants you could? Hamir the Hermit "If you get caught, don't tell them about me, . The last one who did, well, we tied him to a tree, . Out in the high desert by an ant hill, . Haven't been back there since, guess he's swingin' there still." . [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "DMERRITT" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:57:23 -0600 Subject: Sarracenia Hi, I can"t remember who sent me the seed but I would like to thank whoever it was. All six varieties have sprouted. S. alata, S. flava, var. flava, S. minor, S. rubra rubra, S. psittucina, and S. rubra gulfensis. I am very happy to have them. Thank you very much. Can all these varieties be grown year round in a greenhouse, or will they die back anyway in winter? Also, can anyone tell me how long Nep seed should take to sprout? Anita [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:35:32 +1100 Subject: Windowsill Nepenthes? Hi List, A question for those of you in mild climates: What are good Nepenthes species (or hybrids) to grow in a windowsill that has only a couple of hours of early morning sun every day, in a room with no heating, and a temperature range of 10-20 degrees in winter and 15-30 in summer? I am already growing Nepenthes alata x khasiana and it is doing very well, every pitcher and leaf getting larger than the previous one. The live Sphagnum it is potted in seems to also keep the humidity immediately surrounding the plant at good levels. What about Nepenthes x tiveyi (allardii)? Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: jan.schlauer@uni-tuebingen.de Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:53:22 +0000 Subject: African _Nepenthes_ Dear Ivan, > (...) flower, which he indicated was a few inches in diameter. Might a more > primitive Nepenthes have a larger flower? Yes, but without a single piece of evidence (herbarium specimens!), it is pure imagination, and not a primitive _Nepenthes_. > You said that what are > considered to be the most primitive Nepenthes are found in Madagascar and > Seychelles. How do you reckon these got there? Did they cross the Indian > Ocean, or did they come from Africa? Or they originated where they are now (a common feature of primitive relicts), and the *other* species *got* where they are now (i.e. east of the origin of the genus). Kind regards Jan ################### From: Francesc Maynou Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:28:09 +0100 Subject: Re: Windowsill Nepenthes? Hola Miguel, hola list, I successfully grow N. alata and N. ventricosa in very similar conditions to yours. My minimum winter temperature in winter is more like 15 C, not 10, but this shouldn't be a problem. I think many highland species should be OK in this conditions. D'Amato's book gives hints on what Nepenthes species and hybrids might be good candidates for windowsill growing. Regards, Francesc ################### From: "Stefan P. Wolf" Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:34:51 +0100 Subject: Re: New Clarke Book > From: Killerplants@aol.com > Last I heard, the new Nepenthes book would be released in > the US around March, which is just days away. I have looked > at some online sources and it's not mentioned yet. Is it > still on schedule and if so, where can it be obtained? Any > chance of being able to order signed copies, Charles? :) The publication of this book was just postponed to September of this year. Best regards, Stefan. >>> Already subscribed to my free CP literature newsletter??? <<< -- Dipl.-Inform. Stefan P. Wolf ................................................ mail : Zehlendorfer Str. 69, 24111 Kiel, GERMANY tel: (+49 431) 16975232 ** fax: (+49 431) 697568 Carnivorous Plants >>> http://www.karnivoren.com ................................................ ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:08:46 -0600 Subject: Re: Sarracenia All Sar. should have a rest period in the winter. Cooler (above freezing though outside some varieties can survive frost), less water, less light - classic mild winter environment. When the traps die you can cut them off so that only the rhizome remains (leave perhaps an inch or two of the trap so you don't cut too close to the rhizome). While I haven't had the chance yet to do so, when the rhizome has entered the rest period many nurseries will remove them from their compost, spray them with fungicide and put them in the refrigerator (not freezer) for three or four months. I purchase rhizomes that had just such treatment. This also applies to the VFT - rest periods are important to the plant and it's well being. One of the greatest reasons for failure of these plants is the lack of a rest period. After a while they aren't as robust, and they get more vulnerable to fungal attacks and disease and pests. How are you after three or four nights without sleep - I tend to get a cold and very irritable. Repot them in the next season and watch the Sar. flower and the Sar. and VFT's produce moderately larger traps and the cycle begins again... With this treatment, you'll grow old with these plants. (Assuming all other conditions are met too). Pay close attention to the needs of the different plants you'll have. Plants like the Sar and Dionaea like a cool spell and hibernate. Tropical plants like comfortable temperatures - but less water. Some plants like cooler growing conditions year round like the Darling and the Heliamphora - with the Darling being happy with an even cooler rest period. Cheers, Mike DMERRITT wrote: > > Hi, I can"t remember who sent me the seed but I would like to thank > whoever it was. All six varieties have sprouted. S. alata, S. > flava, var. flava, S. minor, S. rubra rubra, S. psittucina, and > S. rubra gulfensis. I am very happy to have them. Thank you very > much. Can all these varieties be grown year round in a greenhouse, > or will they die back anyway in winter? Also, can anyone tell me > how long Nep seed should take to sprout? Anita > > [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:29:31 -0800 Subject: D. uniflora update Hi sundew fans, I last reported my very rare sundew D. uniflora from Chile had made seed. I am happy to report that these germinated. I sowed the seed on regular peat and sand mix in a sealed container and refrigerated them for one month as I do for D. rotundifolia. I took them out and waited two weeks and saw no germination, so I put them back in the fridge for another month. About two weeks later the seed began to sprout. In total it took about three months. The seedlings appear to be growing well so far. Also, I recently learned that D. uniflora will grow from leaf cuttings. I found a plantlet sprouting from an older leaf which was laying on the soil. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:21:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: CP discussion on the radio Hey Folks, So tomorrow morning (1 March) I'm going to do some sort of radio interview on the plants we all know and love. So if ya'll are within radio distance of WRJW (1320 AM, out of Picayune Mississippi), tune in around 8 a.m. local time. I think this is probably a very small, local station..... Later Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "Sundew Sundew" Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:22:57 -0500 Subject: re: genlisea uncinata eric, like i said, i have not had success with leaf cuttings. i have had great luck with hispidula leaves though and plants ive gotten by this method seem to have grown quicker than any other genlisea sp ive got. (another really slow grower is g.filiformis but at least it forms clumps for me). also, my violaceas have larger leaves. my single uncinata also only has about 3 leaves at a given time. this morning, i actually noticed it putting up a 2nd flower stalk. hard to flower? are you sure? i neglect this plant! (dont tell anyone ;) but at one point i was hoping it would die so i could find more room for drosera!). maybe it reaches maturity faster than certain drosera for you but the number of leaves it puts out is minimal - the only drosera i would compare it to are certain tuberous like erythrorhiza which, for me, put out 4 or 5 leaves before dying. really disappointing though i guess most people grow the lentibs for their flowers anyway. i am grateful to have this species but it is definitely one of the most boring CP ive got. hopefully these flower stalks wont abort and i will have something more to talk about soon. either that or i might have to give it away. (i am sure stefan would be happy!) what do you want from a drosera junkie?! dont know if anyones interested but i will have spare genlisea violacea, violacea giant, hispidula and filiformis for trade shortly. i am looking for seed or sterile plants in culture, mainly drosera (african and s american with locations) and heliamphora. sundewmatt I don't fully agree. Ok., G.uncinata is growing much slower than G.violacea or lobata, but it is bigger as well! From my experience it grows at a comparable rate as G.hispidula and can easily be reproduced from leaf cuttings. From seed it can reach flowering size in one or two seasons and that is much faster than most of my other CP's including several Drosera. It is not a lazy flowerer and sends up spikes appearantly more often than it can afford, since they are indeed hard to get to flower. On the other hand side I didn't give them the right care lately. Eric ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:39:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Utricularia in TC Hey Folks, I am asking this question for another person who does TC. This fellow has Utricularia campbelliana in vitro, but at present I understand that the plant is in an undifferentiated form. Does anyone have an idea of hormone concentrations, etc., that will encourage differentiation? Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:13:03 -0600 Subject: Re: CP discussion on the radio Reminds me of "The Little Shop of Horrors" (the remake with Steve Martin) and that wacky radio interview... Have fun. Mike Barry Meyers-Rice wrote: > > Hey Folks, > > So tomorrow morning (1 March) I'm going to do some sort of radio interview > on the plants we all know and love. > > So if ya'll are within radio distance of WRJW (1320 AM, out of Picayune > Mississippi), tune in around 8 a.m. local time. I think this is probably a > very small, local station..... > > Later > > Barry > > ------------------------ > Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice > Carnivorous Plant Newsletter > Conservation Coeditor > barry@carnivorousplants.org > http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:11:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Primitive Nepenthes Dear Steve, > And, over time, it evolved into dioeceous (sp?) behavior and a vining habit > emerging from the center leaf whorl. It would appear that some Drosera have also taken up this behavior on their own. Look at _D. peltata, D. auriculata_ and the far removed _D. cistiflora_. These species form a basal rosettes until they grow large enough and then form shoots from the center, atop of which there are often flowers. Seems very similar to how _Nepenthes_ grow. Dave Evans ################### From: "pepe gaut" Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 02:51:22 -0000 Subject: common seed needed Dear All, You may think Pepe is loco but I need lots of seed from common Utricularia and Pinguicula species such as U. subulata, U. gibba and P. lusitanica. These species are not on seed bank lists. Any help would be Nice. Au Revior, Pepe. ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:09:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Primitive Nepenthes Dear Jan, > I suspect your friend has seen a harmless _Aristolochia_, some of > which can be quite _Nepenthes_-like > (especially in the eyes of a Zoologist). > Kind regards, > Jan Copied from: http://www.findarticles.com/m0833/9177_354/55942317/p1/article.jhtml "The Committee states that recent reports show that end-stage renal failure has been associated with Aristolochia. In a research letter in this week's issue Graham Lord and colleagues report two cases where a herbal remedy being used to treat eczema has led to end-stage renal failure requiring kidney transplantation." I guess you mean "harmless" to insects? ;) Dave Evans ################### From: sean samia Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:57:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Petiolaris Medium and Growing Hey listserver! Everyone should be receiving Allan Lowrie's Petiolaris right around now, give or take a week. Please, if you would like to kill your Petiolaris as soon as possible, you plant them them in pure peat. That might work for Mr.Lowrie, but everyone's conditions are different. That's why I laugh when people quote Adrian S.'s book. Where I live, I rarely have an overcast day like in England. His conditions are opposite mine, so why would I listen to his book. What I'm really trying to say without disrespecting anybody, is take all information with a grain of salt, so to speak, because what works for one person might not work for another person. Soon as you realize that problem, you're on the right track to growing Petiolaris. I grow my Petiolaris anywhere from 50 to 70 % perlite in the mix. I use long fiber sphagnum, live or dead, broken up. You just need to use a mix that holds air and water in equal amounts. The good old Dutch mix works too. Peat, perlite, and vermuriculite in equal amounts. I grow my Petiolaris in a 60 gallon tank with 2 shoplights on top= 4 40 watt cool white bulbs.(The full-spectrum bulbs are a waste of money.) They are not bright enough and there's not enough red spectrum. The plants need the red spectrum to flower. I have nothing on top, no seran wrap, no glass, so the humidity fluctuates up and down and there is a lot more ventilation. Remember even in tropical parts of the world, the wind still blows. In my opinion, I think people tend to keep plants under constant high humidity too much.(D.T.) Petiolaris Sean Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ################### From: Charles Clarke Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:14:20 +0800 Subject: Re: Clarke's book Hi Everyone, I'm really flattered that some of you are wondering what has happened to Nepenthes of Sumatra & Peninsular Malaysia, but I'm afraid the news is bad in that the tentative publication date has been put back to August (barring any further delays), as Stefan P. Wolf kindly pointed out. In earlier messages to this list, I suggested that the book would be published in March, and that the reason it had been delayed until that time was a series of anonymous "technical problems". Those have now been overcome (you can't imagine what a huge relief that is!), but in the meantime the publisher has picked up a lot of small contract work, and this is taking him a few months to clear. Before the book can go to press, I must make one more visit to his offices in Kota Kinabalu to help do the formatting, insert new passages of text and figures, write the indexes (this part is easily the most exciting job in the world), then try to make sure as many errors as possible are eliminated. As he wants to devote his undivided attention to finishing the NoSPM project, he wants to complete the contract work before I visit him. This means I should be able to make my visit to KK in early May, and after that the publication process should take about 12 weeks. However, I should emphasise that this estimate is based on how things stand at present. Publishing books can be an immensely complicated and expensive process, and deadlines for projects of this type are rarely met. Circumstances change frequently (new information comes to light, resources or materials are not available, flights schedules get changed, etc), so if the book is not in your hands by August 1, please don't worry. I am as anxious as anybody to see the final product, but I'm happy wait until August if it means it's going to be better as a result of the delay. In order to keep people informed about what is happening with the book, I'm going to set up a very simple webpage which will contain occasional updates and progress reports about the book. It will also provide some information on where and/or how to buy it (as well as Nepenthes of Borneo). The page is intended only as an information service - there will be no shopping carts, funky galleries or frog noises. In order to provide the latter, I need more time, more experience at composing web pages, and frogs! I'll post the address of the page on this digest when it is up and running. There is still no decision about whether there will be a special edition (boxed, signed, numbered) or not. As the print run for this book is not going to be as large as Nepenthes of Borneo, it may not be worth doing a special edition. Furthermore, as NoSPM is expected to cost more than Nepenthes of Borneo, we are concerned that buyers would ignore a special edition, as it will cost even more than the standard one. I for one can certainly do without a signed copy (!), but I liked the box that the special edition of NoB came in. Maybe if the demand is there, it would be worth doing. What do you think? OK, time for me to get back to work. Thanks again to everybody for their interest in this book! Cheers, Charles. ################### From: Eric Schlosser Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:33:46 +0100 (CET) Subject: re: genlisea uncinata On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Sundew Sundew wrote: > like i said, i have not had success with leaf cuttings. i have had great > luck with hispidula leaves though and plants ive gotten by this method seem > to have grown quicker than any other genlisea sp ive got. Dear Matt, just my oberservations: When I first got G.hispidula I had problems getting leaf cuttings to set buds. They would just sit for a month and then die. I guess the reason was that the plant was too small yet and I chose too old leaves thinking those could be spared. Healthy looking, just fully developed leaves are almost always successful for both G.hispidula and G.uncinata (9 out of 10). They rapidly (compared to when grown from seed) grow up to nice plants. Cuttings made from the flower stalks of G.unc. never produced callus or even plants for me so far. However I've seen some people used them for cuttings in vitro. Seems to be a problem that can be overcome with hormon treatment. G.violacea seems to reproduce from all parts including the traps! The yellow flowered S-American species will reproduce from leaf cuttings too, but the success rate has been much lower than with the Tayloriana branch or G.hispidula. > also, my > violaceas have larger leaves. my single uncinata also only has about 3 > leaves at a given time. My plants (I once had about 10 or so, not anymore though) used to have 3 to 8 green leaves, not a lot in fact, but they were not mature either. The biggest one was about the size of a dime. > this morning, i actually noticed it putting up a > 2nd flower stalk. hard to flower? are you sure? i neglect this plant! I noticed the same thing, which is interesting. This species shows a growth pattern that reminds me of annual species, i.e. once it starts flowering it seems to want to flower until exhaustion. It sends out one stalk after the other, even if the stalks (=peduncles) produced are too weak to set buds and to actually show the corolla. The biggest stalk I got so far was 10" and didn't get to flower. It wasn't as thick as a pencil either, like Fernando reports from natural sites. More like the peduncle illustrated in the original description which seems to be 1.7mm in diameter and bears about 18 flowers. My guess is, with proper growing conditions the plants that start to invest in a flower stalk would get strong enough to get to flower. So far I didn't give it conditions that were good enough yet. I noticed that the smaller types of G.violacea (e.g. the one from Diamantina) and G.lobata tend to be annual (not unusual for Lentibulariaceae) whereas the bigger ones (Caraca) are rather perennial (in culture). I would be surprised if a big species like G.uncinata would be annual - unless I've got a small clone and, wow, just imagine (wouldn't that be exciting?), there are big ones around ;) Eric ################### From: Dan Panetti Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:44:46 -0600 Subject: Dominican Republic CP's I may be in the Dominican Republic for awhile. Anyone out there know of any cp sites to check out? What could I expect to find? thanks, Dan Panetti- S.E. Wisconsin, USA ################### From: Michael Pagoulatos Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:09:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Windowsill Nepenthes I grow the following on a northern windowsill. The temperature is about 69F year-round. I water the pots every morning, let them drain, and mist the foliage. They are vigorous, healthy, and pitcher profusely. -N. khasiana -N. alata -N. mirabilis -N. coccinea -N. isle de France -N. ? (several hybrids from Home Depot) Even so, I'm building a 14x24x10 greenhouse in my back yard so I can go crazy with mostly highlanders, a section for lowlanders and, I am sure, a few orchids and other tropical beauties! ;^) >Subject: Re: Windowsill Nepenthes? Hola Miguel, hola list, I >successfully grow N. alata and N. ventricosa in very similar conditions >to yours. My minimum winter temperature in winter is more like 15 C, >not 10, but this shouldn't be a problem. I think many highland species >should be OK in this >conditions. D'Amato's book gives hints on what Nepenthes species and >hybrids might be good candidates for windowsill growing. Take care, Michael Pagoulatos Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ################### From: Michael Pagoulatos Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:17:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sarracenia growing DMERRITT wrote: > > Hi, I can"t remember who sent me the seed but I would like to thank > whoever it was. All six varieties have sprouted. S. alata, S. > flava, var. flava, S. minor, S. rubra rubra, S. psittucina, and > S. rubra gulfensis. I am very happy to have them. Thank you very > much. Can all these varieties be grown year round in a greenhouse, > or will they die back anyway in winter? Also, can anyone tell me > how long Nep seed should take to sprout? Anita Sarracenias need winter dormancy. I live in N. Texas and grow them in outside bogs year-round. I have summers with 105F in July and August, and cold (albeit short) winters, with a few, brief freezes. They love it. If you do not have cold winters you need to take the rhizomes out of the soil in the beginning of winter, cut the pitchers off, put the rhizomes in a plastic baggie along with a little moist long-fiber sphagnum, and refrigerate them for 3-5 months. If you leave them in warm temperatures year-round, the plants will eventually deteriorate. Buy and read Peter D' Amato's book "Savage Garden" http://www.californiacarnivores.com/new_page_6.htm . It will answer many of your questions. Take care, Michael Pagoulatos Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:50:22 -0800 Subject: No CP on Mars :-( > Glad to hear it. On another matter, I see you work at JPL. I used be a > member of the Planetary Society and still read the Planetary Report at > the library. I have read that it is planned to someday send a mini > greenhouse to Mars which will make use of the Martian materials, --soil > and water. I wonder what plant will be sent, any idea? The planetary protection requirements are rather strict, and I don't see any plants being sent to Mars in the next 10 years. It is not in the baseline for any mission for that timespan. If a plant is sent, it would probably be something a little more hardy than a carnivorous plant, and a plant that would be useful for humans to use on Mars. Ron B. ################### From: "Steve Klitzing" Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:47:33 -0800 Subject: Primitive Nepenthes - response to Dave Evans Hi Dave: An interesting observation about Nepenthes and some species of Drosera. I wonder if anyone has attempted to map the genomes of all CP's yet, and what they would find. That is, if there were indeed some links between the two CP's. And, perhaps species like Cephalotus are a leftover intermediate stage, where there was pitcher growth, but monoeceous behavior was retained. Also, if there is a link between sarracenia, heliamphora, and darlingtonia - all being true pitchers, and all residing in the North/South Americas, each with it's own distinct habitat - hot humid temperate - tropical - and cool temperate. Darlingtonia a newer species than Sarracenia, and Sarracenia newer than Heliamphora. The global climate changes, and the various ice sheets, would have affected the way the common ancestor of these pitcher plants adapted. It may have once ranged on both continents, but climate changes caused specific adaptations resulting in three mutant species of pitchers. An educated guess. I would doubt they have much in common with drosera. But, Nepenthes and Drosera seem to have a lot of similarities. As for VFT's, they also seem to have a lot in common with Drosera, except that the sticky pad is folded and mobile. Also makes me wonder if VFT's and Drosera had a common ancestor with Mimosa or some other mobile plant - the VFT's and Mimosa retaining leaf mobility while Nepenthes and Drosera did not. And, Mimosa not following the carnivorous adaptation. ---Steve Klitzing ################### From: chamb@u.arizona.edu Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 10:05:32 -0700 Subject: Nose-hair moss What can y'all tell me about that "nose-hair" moss; a delicate moss that springs up instantaneously in seed pots and threatens to smother out any CP which emerge. It looks like the upper portions of this moss may bear nasty deciduous self-propagating gemmae-like leaves which heighten its spread. Yet some pots are unaffected, or manifest only a slow infestation. What's the story? Michael ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:19:04 +0100 Subject: AW: Utricularia in TC Hi Barry, I would not grow Utrics in vitro with hormones. They multiply fast enough without. Without hormones I'd guess differenciation should be no problem. Bye Andreas -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com [mailto:cp@opus.labs.agilent.com]Im Auftrag von Barry Meyers-Rice Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Februar 2001 22:47 An: Multiple recipients of list CP Betreff: Utricularia in TC Hey Folks, I am asking this question for another person who does TC. This fellow has Utricularia campbelliana in vitro, but at present I understand that the plant is in an undifferentiated form. Does anyone have an idea of hormone concentrations, etc., that will encourage differentiation? Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "R B" Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:50:05 -0800 Subject: Re: Carnivorous Orchid? I found another reference to the carnivorous orchid: Rami'rez, I., G. Carnevali, and F. Chi-May. 2000. Portraits of Bromeliaceae from the Mexican first-described carnivorous orchid. Amer. Orchid Soc. Bull.. November: 1155- 1157. Ron ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:36:58 EST Subject: Re: Nose-hair moss Michael, I am no expert in moss, but I like the descriptive term you used: it's catchy. Moss like that spreads by spores, usually, and when you use peat, some handfuls may have more spores than others or may not have any. Nuking the peat in a microwave will cut down on that a bit. When you transplant full-sized plants like a D. aliciae and that stuff springs up, sometimes you get more comments about the "attractive carpet moss" rather than the plant itself. :) Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: "david ahrens" Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:36:28 Subject: Conference2002-Violence in Borneo I spoke to a friend a few weeks ago and while discussing the Conference 2002, possibly in the Far East, I said that if it was not held at Mt Kinabalu there would be a riot.Well,the natives of Borneo have proven quite adept at organising riots of their own, these last few days.Serious violence has broken out between ethnic groups in the central Kalimantan region of Borneo. This is about four or five hundred miles from Mt Kinabalu. Over four hundred Madurese have been massacred by Dayak gangs. I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the conference next year and how this may affect it. I am sorry if this posting is a bit serious, but I have heard very little about thee conference coming up. Regards David Ahrens. ################### From: chamb@u.arizona.edu Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:56:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Nose-hair moss At 12:43 PM 01 03 2001 -0800, you wrote: > > I am no expert in moss, but I like the descriptive term you used: it's >catchy. Barry and I used that term way-back when we were both Arizona residents. We speculated that an electric nose-hair trimmer (advertised in the back of fine magazines everywhere) might be the best tool to remove the offending moss from our prized plants. > Moss like that spreads by spores, usually, and when you use peat, >some handfuls may have more spores than others or may not have any. I wonder how it gets in peat. Does it grow in Sphagnum bogs? Seems I've only noticed it as a pest of potted CPs. Michael ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:55:00 +0000 Subject: Root Aphids Hi, Has anyone any experience of dealing with root aphids? I have found a few infected plants while repotting today. Plants that are being split are pretty easy to treat. I have just soaked them in a systemic insecticide. Is there a suitable treatment for the rest of the plants, other than repotting the lot? Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "mp" Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:49:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Conference2002-Violence in Borneo David Ahrens expressed some concern about the recent violence in central Kalimantan as it relates to a possible CP conference at Kinabalu Park. Keep in mind that the Malaysian government, which has jurisdiction over Kinabalu Park, is substantially different from the Indonesian government which is responsible for Kalimantan. The politics are different. There are no large populations of "outsiders" in Sabah, brought there by the government, to fight with the indigenous peoples. I certainly hope that tourists would not refrain from visiting Los Angeles just because there were riots across the border in Mexico. Perry Malouf ################### From: Laurent Legendre Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:09:14 +1100 Subject: Re: Utricularia in TC Hi Barry, I have no experience with this particular Utricularia species in vitro, but I've done plenty other Lentibulariacea. Normally, no hormones are required to grow these plants in vitro. But, I've had formation of this undifferentiated state several times in the past. P. vulgaris is the worst of all. In my hands, this group of plants enters an undifferentiated state when the medium is too rich, like for exemple when you're using MS at full strength or even half strength. Diluting this mix gets rid of the problem. Most of the time I start at 1/5 the recommended strenght and may go as low as 1/8th. Good luck, Laurent Legendre ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 07:33:14 -0000 Subject: Re: Dominican Republic CP's Dan The Dominican Republic (locals call it Dominica which is muddling as that is also the name of a French Caribbean island!) is not rich in CP's. It has some "common" Utrics, maybe a red rosetty thing and one simply fantastic Pinguicula. I'm not being my usual prejudiced self here - you really would expect that the only CP anyone would try hard to see in Dominica would be the Ping as it;'s very rare, not in cultivation and it's epiphytic. However, whether you'll see any of them depends on how much time you have, how mobile you are and how lucky you are. You don't say where you're going in Dominica so I guess you're on holiday somewhere on the coast or on business in Santo Domingo. If so, you'll have a long drive! About 6 hours from Puerta Plata airport or 4 hours from Santo Domingo, if you know you're way. (If alone, expect to take much longer to find your way). I don't know the whole island but by reputation (and based on much of what I've seen), the vast majority is dry. Thus you'll have to head inland and to the West into the Province of La Vega (capital of the province also called La Vega). Here you head inland toward the mountains , which you will notice, toward a place called Constanza. On the way (there's only one road to Constanza), you'll suddenly realise you are at the top of a mountain. This is a nasty road that is deadly to travel in rain or at night (I mean deadly - do not not try it in rain or at night as the road can wash away leaving just a hole and a vertical drop of several hundred metres, which you won't see until you've entered it!!!).. At the very top you will see a place to stop and look at the view. On the right of this about 30 yards away are meal gates (locked) that announce on a sign the entrance to the protected park of Mount Casabito. If you could enter, about 1 hour's hot and sweaty walk away (there's only one path) is the actual peak. You know you're there when the armed guard sticks his rifle in yor face and asks in Spanish why you're in a protected area. In this park there is a single walkable path that goes up and then starts down. As you go down, the trees on the right are the trees that bear Pinguicula casabitoensis. If you have got this far, you will be with a guide (or the rifle will have been inserted into parts of your anatomy you would rather not be aware of). He will point out the plants. This area is also home to some Utrics but unless you have hours up there (you won't) or are incredibly lucky, you simply will not find or see any. So how do you get into the park without an anatomical inspection with a rifle? You go to El Arroyaso. To find this, you drive further along the road from Mount Casabito toward Constanza. Las Palmas is near. Keep looking on your right for a sign to El Arroyaso. When you miss it (you will) and you realise you have, ask anyone and they'll tell you the way in Spanish. If you succeed in finding the corect road (of the two you 'll arrive at, it's the smaller one on the left) you'll need to ensure it isn't raining and hasn't within the last day. This is to make you sure your car can get to the Scientific Research Station. In bad weather, you MUST use a 4x4 or you will get stuck and may not easily get any help. Keep driving along what loks like the main path until you reach a modern building on the left behind fencing. This is the research center (there is a sign) where you can drive in and ask for help (in Spanish). If you are lucky, if they are in, if they like you, if they have have time and if you are a good negotiator, they may agree to take you to the Pinguicula (possibly in their car or more likely in yours). If you have no luck, that's it, you'll make a 10 hour (or more) round journey covering two days and see nothing. Do not attempt to enter the park without a guide. It is well guarded (remember those rifles) and the cloudforest jungle means you can literally only walk on the path. The guards will have at least 1 hour'svisibility of you coming and without a guide will not negotiate, they will just point you back where you came from. There is another site where the Ping grows. However, it is very difficult to locate, there are no guides and you would need a good 4x4, not just any old 4x4, and these are impossible to hire! It's in the South at the top of mountains just North of San Jose de Ocoa. Very very dangerous mountain to visit alone or without local knowledge. I can give an approximate guide to a known Utric/Drosera site but there is nothing unusual there, we're talking something like U. subulata and D. capillariss/subulate/some other lookalike and I really don't think it will be worth your while. To visit the area you would need to overnight in Constanza (try Hotel Mi Casa, clean nice owner, say hello from me!). Then head North out of Constanza for about 2-3 hours. If required and can give a rough guide to where but not an exact one, but it's not very interesting as I said. P. casabitoensis is a protected plant at all it's (3) locations, two of which are in the park I described. It's proved impossible to maintain in cultivation so far, partly because it dies if in contact with water (one drop kills - believe me.). If going and want to chat more, write to me personally. If still wondering if dangerous means dangerous, last time I went, my father-in-law's best friend killed himself and scrapped the 4x4 while parked on the mountain, he just parked in the wrong place! Good luck and bon voyage. Regrads Paul p://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Borneo Exotics Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:45:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Clarke's book >there will be no shopping carts, >funky galleries or frog noises. In order to provide the latter, I need more >time, more experience at composing web pages, and frogs! Charlie, We can supply frog or other noises if you like. Living in the garden here we have numerous frogs, chamaeleons, skinks, geckos, monitor lizards, four dogs, three cats, some polecats, two rat snakes (no rats!) one cobra (that I know of, there may be more!) and an irritable porcupine. Nesting in the trees there are parrots, miner birds, and woodpeckers. Oh yes, and there is at least one mongoose living in the roof space. Would you like them all solo or in a chorus? I've never heard the chamaeleons sing before though, but I shall ask them... Rob Cantley Borneo Exotics (AKA Menagerie Manor) http://www.borneoexotics.com ################### From: Hans Johnson Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:24:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: D. binata complex Hi, Now that most of my binatas are growing, I'd like some imput on sort- ing out the varieties (I believe they're no longer considered as sub- species). I know dichotoma is usually thicker/more robust and usually with no more than four leaves forking off the petiole, and my multifida extrema should be the largest I have. But how to pick out the "xMarston Mill"? I know I read it's descrip- tion somewhere - dichotoma x multifidia, I presume? Of course this hybrid must have been made in Adrian Slack's old stomping ground. Hopefully the wee furry creatures won't up-end them this year. (And no, I'm not talking about Leprechaun's! ;) ) Thanks and grow well, Hans Doylestown, PA Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:45:30 -0500 Subject: RE: Root Aphids Hey Phil, They are probably root mealy-bug. Are they gray/white? I have used a chemical called Dycarb as a drench. It seems to work well for these guys. Steven R. LaWarre Grower Frederik Meijer Gardens 1000 E Beltline NE Grand Rapids MI 49525 (616)975-3175 slawarre@meijergardens.org -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Phil Wilson Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 6:01 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP Hi, Has anyone any experience of dealing with root aphids? I have found a few infected plants while repotting today. Plants that are being split are pretty easy to treat. I have just soaked them in a systemic insecticide. Is there a suitable treatment for the rest of the plants, other than repotting the lot? Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:25:39 -0500 Subject: S. X Tarnak The gift shop at the Atlanta Botantical Gardens has S. X Tarnak and I would appreciate someone pointing me to a website that has a picture. They also have S. X Mardi Gras and S X Judith Hindle. David Atlanta ################### From: "Steve LaWarre" Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:35:29 -0500 Subject: RE: S. X Tarnak Speaking of S. x Tarnak, what's the history of this plant? I have two small pots, and I would like a bit more info on this hybrid. Thanks Steve -----Original Message----- Behalf Of Mellard, David Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:28 AM To: Multiple recipients of list CP The gift shop at the Atlanta Botantical Gardens has S. X Tarnak and I would appreciate someone pointing me to a website that has a picture. They also have S. X Mardi Gras and S X Judith Hindle. David Atlanta ################### From: "Michael Manna" Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:44:00 -0500 Subject: Re: S. X Tarnak David, this shows the flower, the rest of the plant is normal. http://www.plantdel.com/Catalog/Spring/page80.html Michael >From: "Mellard, David" >Reply-To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com >To: Multiple recipients of list CP >Subject: S. X Tarnak >Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 07:27:33 -0800 (PST) > >The gift shop at the Atlanta Botantical Gardens has S. X Tarnak and I would >appreciate someone pointing me to a website that has a picture. They also >have S. X Mardi Gras and S X Judith Hindle. > >David >Atlanta ################### From: john green Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:26:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: S. leucophylla 'Tarnok' > From: Mellard, David [mailto:dam7@cdc.gov] > The gift shop at the Atlanta Botantical Gardens has S. X > Tarnak and I would appreciate someone pointing me to a > website that has a picture. They also have S. X Mardi > Gras and S X Judith Hindle. > From: Steve LaWarre [mailto:slawarre@meijergardens.org] > Speaking of S. x Tarnak, what's the history of this plant? > I have two small pots, and I would like a bit more info > on this hybrid. I think the proper way to refer to the plant is S. leucophylla 'Tarnok' since it's not a hybrid but a cultivar. And while I'm at it, the plant I got from ABG last fall for a measly $15 is great! It's growing now and the first pitcher is nowhere near opening and it's about 9" tall so far, so I highly recommend ABG! As I understand it, it's a regular leuco as the pitchers go, but the flowers are look like they're double. It's not a matter of extra petals, but extra tepals(?) or something like that. It's named for a Mr. Coleman Tarnok, who discovered the plants growing in Alabama over 20 years ago. He took one and put it in his bog in Mississippi, and has since returned to the original site but been unable to find any more. There was a write up in CPN Dec '93 by Ron Determann and Madeleine Groves. I have some information I can send if anyone's interested (but send requests to me at john.green@ascensus.com). John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:35:07 -0500 Subject: RE: S. leucophylla 'Tarnok' Hi John, >I think the proper way to refer to the plant is S. leucophylla 'Tarnok' since it's not a hybrid but a cultivar. You're absolutely right. I just wasn't thinking or rather too lazy to research its genealogy. David ################### From: CMcdon0923@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:55:25 EST Subject: Time to Wake Up.... Just came in from checking the greenhouse, and to my surprise, I found the first signs of a flower scape emerging from a growing point on one of my S. minor. Spring must certainly be on the way!!!! Craig McDonald Frisco, Texas ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 19:14:42 +0000 Subject: UK CPS Pine Bash Hi, This is a message for UK based CPS members only - everyone else please ignore. The Pine Bash scheduled for tomorrow has been cancelled due to the current foot and mouth crisis. English nature have cancelled all field work on their reserves and the Forestry Commission have closed the New Forest. If anyone knows of members intending to come on the pine bash who are not Internet connected, or who can only connect at work we would appreciate if they could pass this message on. Apologies for the lateness of this message but I have only just learnt about it myself. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 19:53:04 +0000 Subject: Re: Root Aphids Steven, > > They are probably root mealy-bug. Are they gray/white? I have used a >chemical called Dycarb as a drench. It seems to work well for these guys. > I can't actually see any of the bugs but there is a lot of grey/white stuff around the roots. At first I thought it was a Mycorrhizal fungus but this seems very unlikely. Any idea what the active ingredient is in Dycarb since its almost certainly sold under a different name here. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:51:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: New FAQ add on Hey Folks, This discussion about CP Botanical Gardens has gotten me thinking about CP places. I've added a new full section on the FAQ showing some nice range maps that I've drawn up showing CP in the USA. In the future I'm hoping to add onto this stuff with more range maps. I moved the list of Botanical gardens to this area. I'd appreciate feedback, etc. The CP FAQ can be accessed at http://www.sarracenia.com/faq.html The new content has the label, WHERE? WHERE? as a header. Cheers Barry --------------------- Dr. Barry Meyers-Rice bazza@sarracenia.com Carnivorous Plant FAQ--author www.sarracenia.com/faq.html Carnivorous Plant Newsletter--editor www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "mike wilder" Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 20:56:18 -0000 Subject: obscure teak question;please help hello, i sincerely hope someone can answer this question: does teak release any noxious/irritating/harmful compounds? i am building a new terrarium for my nepenthes, and the design requires that some strips of lumber will be in constant contact with slightly acidic water heated to 80 degrees f. it was suggested by a friend that i use teak because boats are made of it sometimes. but he also cautioned that he thought that teak might perhaps release compounds which could harm my plants. if no one can comment upon this, perhaps someone could suggest a known wood which would be safe for this application. i would really appreciate any help on this, as i don't wish to poison my plants! thanks--mike ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:34:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Root Aphids Dear Phil, > I can't actually see any of the bugs but there is a lot of grey/white > stuff around the roots. At first I thought it was a Mycorrhizal fungus > but this seems very unlikely. I have heard that mealy bugs are indeed infested with mycorrhizal fungus. The mealies that are seperated from the fungus don't do as well. It seem rather weird to me but while the bugs are sucking out the sap, the fungus is drawing something from the them and is actually "giving" a portion of it back to the plant. It seems so odd, I'm not sure I beleive it. Dave Evans ################### From: "Greg Bourke" Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:24:30 +1100 Subject: D. uniflora Hi Ivan I'm glad to hear of the success you are having with D. uniflora. I look forward to this beautiful species becoming available. Regards Greg ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:07:48 -0500 Subject: U. asplundii Hello Utricularia-philes, The first flower on _U. asplundii_ has opened and I have tried self-pollinating the flower. My intention is to try and get this seed or baby plants to people who are interested in them. If I get seed, what should I do with it? How long is it viable? Will it survive long enough for a trip into a seed bank or must it be sowed straight away? If it needs to be sowed right away, what mix can be successfully used? Normal peat/sand? Thank-you, Dave Evans [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "Hideka Kobayashi" Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 00:09:30 -0600 Subject: Utricularia TC Barry, there is not too much literature on TC of Utricularia. However, I found an article recently in Plant Cell Reports (1998). And one of the author is Kastuhiko Kondo as you might have guessed. They used U. praelonga shoot tip as ex-plants,and B5 was the media they used. They found that concentration of NO3 and BA were important in organogenesis. You can get both abstract and the article off net. I don't know the specific web address but try this: http://link.springer-ny.com/link/service/journals. Then find Plant Cell Reports. The volume is 17, and the pages are 451-456. You cannot generalize PGR requirement for the entire genus many times. I would try BA at concentration of 0.5 mg/L to 1.0 mg/L. Just keep in mind they used liquid media. > >Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:39:09 -0800 (PST) >From: Barry Meyers-Rice >To: cp list >Subject: Utricularia in TC >Message-ID: > > > >Hey Folks, > >I am asking this question for another person who does TC. >This fellow has Utricularia campbelliana in vitro, but at present I >understand that the plant is in an undifferentiated form. Does anyone have >an idea of hormone concentrations, etc., that will encourage >differentiation? > >Cheers > >Barry > ################### From: Kris Kopicki Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 20:00:54 +1030 Subject: WA Flora Database Hi, Just thought I'd let people know that the Western Australian Herbarium has now given the general public limited access to their flora database (FloraBase). If you're fortunate enough to have a full account you can even get detailed descriptions of plants. For those interested you'll find it here: http://florabase.calm.wa.gov.au/ (click on the "names" button to search) Kris ################### From: Gallep@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:11:53 EST Subject: CP's in Guatemala? At the end of March I will go to Guatemala for two weeks. Does anybody have some information about CP's in Guatemala? Thank you very much, Frank ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 18:57:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Root Aphids Dave, > > I have heard that mealy bugs are indeed infested with mycorrhizal >fungus. The mealies that are seperated from the fungus don't do as well. >It seem rather weird to me but while the bugs are sucking out the sap, the >fungus is drawing something from the them and is actually "giving" a portion >of it back to the plant. It seems so odd, I'm not sure I beleive it. > Yes, it all sounds too good to be true ..... Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 19:16:50 +0000 Subject: Re: U. asplundii In message <001401c0a397$8213f8b0$2d500680@rutgers.edu>, Dave Evans writes >Hello Utricularia-philes, > > The first flower on _U. asplundii_ has opened and I have tried > self-pollinating the flower. My intention is to try and get > this seed or baby plants to people who are interested in them. > If I get seed, what should I do with it? How long is it viable? > Will it survive long enough for a trip into a seed bank or must > it be sowed straight away? If it needs to be sowed right away, > what mix can be successfully used? Normal peat/sand? > I've not seen seed of this species but many of this group of Utrics have seed with a very short viability. I would use whatever mix you grow the plant in for the seed. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 13:46:03 -0800 Subject: Nepenthes in unglazed ceramic pots? I was wondering if it is OK to plant Nepenthes in unglazed ceramic pots other than terra cotta. I have a couple of pots that I'd like to use to transplant some Nepenthes (in particular, N. khasianna). The first pot is not glazed at all, though it looks like it has been painted with a non-glossy paint inside and out. The stickers on the bottom say, "Batavia Collection. Hand made in Indonesia. Pot Specialists, Inc. 5" NANT POT-AUTUMNT BLUE". It has a drainage hole in the bottom. The second pot is glazed outside, but neither glazed nor painted inside. The bottom (cast into the clay) says, "Stoneware Design. 105 USA". It is also drained, but with a built-in saucer. Would either or both of these be safe to use for Nepenthes? Thanks, Joe ################### From: "pepe gaut" Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 18:17:15 -0000 Subject: U. subulata seed Dear All, Want to put those pesky U. subulata weeds to good use? I need lots of seed from this species, so please contact me and I can take them out of your glasshouse forever. Au revior, Pep. ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 10:36:41 -0800 Subject: more on D. uniflora >>I'm glad to hear of the success you are having with D. uniflora. I look forward to this beautiful species becoming available. Regards Greg Hi again sundew fans, I will endeavor to make this plant available. I have had many private replies expressing interest in this species. Some are interested in the plant for its proportionately huge flower, and some like the plant for it extreme rarity and obscurity. Others are interested in the plant for its puzzling taxonomy. Now that we have learned that the plant can grow from leaf cuttings, we know that the plant may also be mass propagated via tissue culture. Still, it is very difficult to grow mature plants well, and I feel extremely lucky to have had one plant flower. I hope you are all firmly seated as you read the following. When flowering I cross pollinated with another species. Being doubtful about this cross, I did not take my usual care to insure against producing seed of uncertain parentage. I have two seedlings which appear to be hybrids, but I'm not celebrating yet. The other species is an easy growing tropical. This means we may be able to select offspring looking like D. uniflora but which grows easily. Also, I anticipate this surprising hybrid may usher in taxonomic revision for D. uniflora. Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: "Steve Klitzing" Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:34:35 -0800 Subject: outdoor aquatic utrics Hi all: Which outdoor aquatic utrics will survive in a temperate zone? 20-30 degrees in winter, 80-100 degrees in summer. ---Steve Klitzing ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 15:24:32 -0500 Subject: 2 little S. leucophylla need homes Hi Everyone-- I just re-potted what I thought was one S. leucophylla (typical) and ended up with seven fully formed, generously rooted divisions. I'm keeping the largest four, giving one to a friend, but have two that I simply don't have room for. If there's anyone out there who doesn't grow this plant, but would like to, send me your mailing address privately (not to the listserve) and you can have a small, but very healthy, division for free. The first two to respond WILL receive email verification and one division via priority mail. How can I afford to do this? The postage equals the costs of potting materials, but what would I do with the potted plants if I don't have any room? I guess I could toss them in the compost bin... NO WAY! Don't delay, I hope to send these out by Tuesday! Gary Kong __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: Wayne Morrow Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 18:48:11 -0600 Subject: Re: outdoor aquatic utrics U. gibba! It is a weed in Zone 7. Wayne > Which outdoor aquatic utrics will survive ################### From: garkoinsf@netscape.net Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:25:25 -0500 Subject: no more S. leucophylla hi everyone-- the two S. leucophylla that i had offered are now spoken for. my apologies to those who receive the listserve in digest form (like myself), but i was in a hurry to send these off. gary __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ################### From: Dorrie Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 02:38:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: D.filiformis is in full-flower right now Hello listserver! My Drosera filiformis-all-red that doesn't go dormant is flowering right now. Does it produce true to seed? Dorrienne LaMountain ################### From: Michael Pagoulatos Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 07:14:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: outdoor aquatic utrics Steve Klitzing wrote: "...Which outdoor aquatic utrics will survive in a temperate zone? 20-30 degrees in winter, 80-100 degrees in summer.". I have U. gibba growing outside year-round, in the saucers of pots with other CPs. I have 100-110 F Julys and Augusts, and 25-30 F is my coldest winter temperature range (for a few days at a time). The plant has frozen solidseveral times and come back to flourish with warmer temperatures. Take care, Michael Pagoulatos Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. ################### From: Ron Baalke Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:56:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: more on D. uniflora > > Hi again sundew fans, > I will endeavor to make this plant available. I have had many private > replies expressing interest in this species. Some are interested in the > plant for its proportionately huge flower, and some like the plant for it > extreme rarity and obscurity. Others are interested in the plant for its > puzzling taxonomy. Congratulations on getting it to flower! I'm interested in the plant, perhaps you can bring a few to the next LACPS meeting? Ron Baalke ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:22:31 -0800 Subject: Hardy utrics Hi everyone, The topic of hardy utrics is a perfect tie-in to the following story. Last summer, I planted a clump of U.sandersonni in with some Sarrs in a 12 inch pot. They bloomed like mad all summer and I figured that this spring they'd need to be replaced by fresh stock since they're not 'hardy'. Well, I looked at the pot this weekend and yes, U.sandersonni successfully overwintered and is growing again! What does this mean? This means that this little Utric managed to survive a week of about -5C weather with daytime highs just above freezing. However, the pot stayed frozen for that entire time. So, I guess we've got to give a little more credit for these plants. They seem to be able to take more abuse than what I thought was reasonable! Happy growing, Chris -- Chris Teichreb http://www.geocities.com/cteichreb ("Coastal Carnivores", my homepage) http://www.geocities.com/VCPC2000 (Vancouver Carnivorous Plant Club) ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:37:29 +0000 Subject: Re: WA Flora Database Thanks Kris, I've just looked up Drosera omissa...... > Topic No. 2 > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 20:00:54 +1030 > From: Kris Kopicki > To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com > Subject: WA Flora Database > Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Just thought I'd let people know that the Western Australian > Herbarium has now given the general public limited access to their > flora database (FloraBase). If you're fortunate enough to have a full > account you can even get detailed descriptions of plants. For those > interested you'll find it here: > > http://florabase.calm.wa.gov.au/ (click on the "names" button to search) > > Kris > ################### From: "R B" Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:39:14 -0800 Subject: Easter Egg Idea With all the Easter stuff for sale in the stores this time of year, I couldn't help but notice the clear plastic hollow eggs that are now readily available. These plastic egges might make good mini-terrariums for growing CP seeds. The clear plastic would allow in the light and since they are totally enclosed, they would keep the humidity high. I found a place that were selling them for 10 cents apiece, and bought a couple dozen eggs. I filled six eggs halfway with the appropriate soil medium, and sowed seeds in them. I'll let you know how it "hatches". Ron ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:44:15 +0000 Subject: Re: more on D. uniflora Congratulations Ivan, keep up the good work. Hopefully once D uniflora is spread around more widely then people will find what conditions suit it best. Friends from the Falklands report that their climate is similar to Northern Scotland, so a few people on this list should be able to grow it in their back yards. A nursery in London kept it alive for several years with no special treatment, so temperature may not be the most difficult obstacle. Regards, NigelH > > Topic No. 2 > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 10:36:41 -0800 > From: Ivan Snyder > To: cp@opus.labs.agilent.com > Subject: more on D. uniflora > Message-ID: <20010304.103732.-22725.1.bioexp@juno.com> > > Hi again sundew fans, > I will endeavor to make this plant available. I have had many private > replies expressing interest in this species. Some are interested in the > plant for its proportionately huge flower, and some like the plant for it > extreme rarity and obscurity. Others are interested in the plant for its > puzzling taxonomy. > Now that we have learned that the plant can grow from leaf cuttings, > we know that the plant may also be mass propagated via tissue culture. > Still, it is very difficult to grow mature plants well, and I feel > extremely lucky to have had one plant flower. I hope you are all firmly > seated as you read the following. When flowering I cross pollinated with > another species. Being doubtful about this cross, I did not take my usual > care to insure against producing seed of uncertain parentage. I have two > seedlings which appear to be hybrids, but I'm not celebrating yet. The > other species is an easy growing tropical. This means we may be able to > select offspring looking like D. uniflora but which grows easily. Also, I > anticipate this surprising hybrid may usher in taxonomic revision for D. > uniflora. > > Ivan Snyder > Hermosa Beach > California > ################### From: Terre Golembiewski Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:16:37 -0500 Subject: Which countries are richest in CP? Could anyone comment on which countries (or areas) in the world are richest in number of carnivorous plant species? ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 08:47:30 +1100 Subject: Re: Which countries are richest in CP? At 06:26 AM 3/6/01, you wrote: >Could anyone comment on which countries (or areas) in the world are richest >in number of carnivorous plant species? I'd say Western Australia, South Africa, and maybe Brazil/Venezuela... Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:42:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Which countries are richest in CP? It has to be North Carolina, South Carolina, and Florida in the USA for Genus. Dionaea, Drosera, Sarracenia, Pinguicula, and Utricularia. In the US Florida for species. Miguel how do you figure Brazil? I agree with Australia and think Boreno should be added for Nepenthes species. ~ Mike ----- Original Message ----- To: "Multiple recipients of list CP" Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 4:51 PM > > At 06:26 AM 3/6/01, you wrote: > > >Could anyone comment on which countries (or areas) in the world are richest > >in number of carnivorous plant species? > > I'd say Western Australia, South Africa, and maybe Brazil/Venezuela... > Miguel de Salas > > School of Plant Science > University of Tasmania > GPO Box 252-55 > Hobart > TAS 7001 > Australia > ################### From: "Gilles Lardy" Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:24:19 +0800 Subject: Another CP Photo Thief Online !!! Hi, Does anybody know to whom the following spanish webpage belongs to ? http://members.es.tripod.de/fraxi/drose_2.htm While browsing on the net I ended up on his drosera pages and was surprised to find out that ALL my D. burmannii and D. oblanceolata pictures were displayed on the site ! I do not mind people borrowing pictures from me. I can understand that not everybody has easy access to plant material for illustrating a web page, but courteousy wants that before taking ALL pictures from somebody else's site, one FIRST asks for the permission, and secondlym, once permission is granted, the source of the pictures should be clearly indicated. Whoever knows the person running this site, please ask him remove at once all pictures taken on my webpages from his site and then to contact me in order to get permission to use photographic material found on my site. Gilles www.byblis.com ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:08:08 +1100 Subject: Re: Another CP Photo Thief Online !!! If you write to Tripod and explain the situation, they might cancel their account... Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: Miguel de Salas Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:10:44 +1100 Subject: Re: Another CP Photo Thief Online !!! Doing a bit of investigation, I think the owner of the site is plantascarnivoras@latinmail.com Cheers! Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science University of Tasmania GPO Box 252-55 Hobart TAS 7001 Australia ################### From: "Bruce Salmon" Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:07:34 +1300 Subject: NZ FERN BOOKS Last year I sent some NZ Fern books to a CPer on this list. Unfortunately I can't remember who it was. One book you were wanting was out of print then... NZ Ferns and Allied Plants by Patrick Brownsey and John Smith-Dodsworth. A new revised edition has just been published. If you're still interested in getting a copy let me know Cheers Bruce ################### From: "Joseph Kinyon" Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:45:11 -0800 Subject: Utricularia Hey folks, How do I obtain Utricularia humboltii or alpina? I am not familiar with its availability or what would be considered a fair price for a live plant. Please advise me on this plant. Joseph Kinyon [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: john green Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 01:24:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Outdoor bog garden and D. intermedia The weather here has gotten pretty mild and looks like it might stay that way so I pulled the pine mulch off my bog this morning. The pine needles worked much better than the straw I've used in the past and there was only a tiny bit of mold on the soil in one spot. The best thing, though, was that all my plants appear to have survived without any trouble. I was kind of worried about some of the more southern types, like S. leuco and some S. alata x purp venosa hybrids, but they appear just fine. The only plant I lost was a VFT, but I think it was dying already last fall. It'll be a while before I know, but I'm hoping that the U. livida even made it (if so, I'll add some U. calycifida later this spring). I almost wonder if the soil even froze, but I think it must have. We had a bitterly cold November, and then right after Christmas an inversion set in and we didn't see the sun or get higher than about mid 20's F for about three weeks. Other than that it was pretty much normal, a bit on the dry side, though. I noticed that the D. intermedia is beginning to grow, but isn't even rooted in the soil. I'd like to take advantage of this and move some of them to better spots. What do I need to do for them? Should I place them on the top of the soil or just bury the base a tiny bit? Thanks in advance for all advice. John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 08:11:03 -0000 Subject: Countries richest in CP's Terre As a guess, I'd suggest Australia, Belize and Venezuela are fairly high up on the list. Australia must rank highly both for diversity (Utrics, Cephalotus, Byblis, Nepenthes and Drosera - yes Drosera, not just red rosetty things but pygmy, tuberous and other interesting forms). I'd expect it is top of the list. Belize happens to have quite a range of Utricularia, Catopsis is present as are the occassional red rosetty thing, though for some strange reason people seem particularly keen on D. uniflora which grows there (and once I even collected it - ad then gave it away to an American friend). I'd guess it could be second or third on the list. I'd also suggest Venezuela will be high on the list, possibly third (maybe second) for it's range of Utricularia, Heliamphora, Catopsis and (interesting) Drosera (is there Genlisea too, I can't remember?) and maybe even that carnivorous orchid, if it is proved carnivorous! Brazil is possibly next with Utricularia, Genlisea and the widest possible range of red rosetty things that aren't tuberous or pygmy that you could ever hope to come accross - so, obviously an attraction to strange botanists with weird taste :-) I'd be surprised if these 4 countries were not in the top 5, in some order, on the list you asked for. It would be interesting to see a map showing density variation, i.e. which countries/areas had the most CP diversity per standard area (acre, sqare kilometre, hectare, etc.). I'm sure there should be a way of using Jan's marvellous database to get an exact answer to yoiur question. Cheers Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: "Susan Farrington" Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 06:55:24 CST6CDT Subject: Nepenthes bicalcarata We are in search of a specimen (or two preferably so we have a back-up) of Nepenthes bicalcarata for our new Ant Display in our tropical conservatory, the Climatron. If anyone has one for trade or sale, please let contact either myself, or the person in charge of the ant display: Susie Ratcliff susan.ratcliff@mobot.org Thanks! Susan Farrington Missouri Botanical Garden P.O. Box 299 St. Louis MO 63166-0299 susan.farrington@mobot.org (314)577-9402 ################### From: Dan Panetti Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 07:32:26 -0600 Subject: CP'S in Quintana Roo, Mexico Greetings- As luck would have it I may be in Mexico in early april-Quintana Roo to be more specific. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks, Dan Panetti ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 08:40:28 EST Subject: Re: Utricularia Joseph, I am not up on fair prices for Utrics, but Andreas Wistuba has both of those on his 2001 pricelist for about $12.50 US for U. humboldtii and $9.00 US for U. alpina. I imagine local growers might have U. alpina or maybe both, but if you can't find any, this is at least one source. His link is on the ICPS weblink index. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: Borneo Exotics Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:58:55 +0000 Subject: Chameleons Hi Folks, I hope this isn't too off topic for the list, but I just wanted to share it. We have several fairly tame Chameleons hanging around our nurseries and it always gives me pleasure to see them blending in with the background foliage. Yesterday one of them (I will call it a "he" surely nothing so scaly cound be a "she" could it?) was sitting on a rusty iron pipe, blending in perfectly with the background, a sort of orange with brown speckles. I wish had found the time to take a photo then. Tonight I just had to take a quick digital picture. He was sitting on and trying his very best to blend in with, an elastic chord that is used to close the door on one of our nursery buildings. The chord is bright yellow with orange and black bands and he was having just... a little trouble with this. The black banding is perfect, even down to the spacing between the bands, but the orange was requiring considerable concentration and raising of hackles and the yellow background was just too much to manage. There is a photo at: http://www.borneoexotics.com/images/other/chameleon.jpg I'll check him out tomorrow, and if he hasn't exploded with the effort and progressed even further with his endeavours, I'll take another photo and then lay down a tartan rug for him to try out... Cheers, Rob Cantley Borneo Exotics ################### From: "Scott Robinson" Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:57:37 +0800 Subject: Nepenthes Seed This is only for those living in Australia (My apologies to everyone unfortunate enough not to live in Australia). I have a small quantity of surplus Nepenthes ventricosa seed, this is fresh seed collected Tuesday. I fear that if I grow anymore I will become lost in a Nepenthes jungle. I will give this seed to the first 10 people living in Australia who reply to me at sarob@cag.iinet.net.au The cost will be a stamped self addressed envelope. Scott ____________________________ | | | C.A.G. | | | | Success in Your Garden, | | Starts with Your Grower. | | | | http://cag.iinet.net.au | |____________________________| ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:54:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Which areas are richest in CPs Hey Terre, I don't have the article in front of me, but the recent article that Jan Schlauer wrote on CP distributions for CPN (remember the article with table after table?) has exactly this kind of data. >Could anyone comment on which countries (or areas) in the world are >richest in number of carnivorous plant species? Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "Richard jobson" Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 21:25:09 -0000 Subject: Cambrian Carnivors? Hi there, I am trying to find out if Cambrian Carnivors is still in operation? I have been trying to contact Peter Cole without luck. If anyone has information about the current statis of his business please let me know. Best, Richard. ################### From: "Bruce Salmon" Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:57:49 +1300 Subject: CP BOOKS FOR SALE Hi All I have the following CP books for sale.... Carnivorous Plants of Australia Vol 1 (Allen Lowrie) Excellent condition - 1 copy only Carnivorous Plants of Australia Vol 2 (Allen Lowrie) Good condition - 1 copy only Insect Eating Plants & How to Grow Them (Adrian Slack) Reasonable condition - 1 copy only Carnivorous Plants (Adrian Slack) Reasonable condition - soft cover - 1 copy only Carnivorous Plants (Adrian Slack) Excellent condition - hard cover - 1 copy only These are available singly to the highest bidder or make an offer for the lot. Anyone interested should contact me privately brucesal@xtra.co.nz Cheers Bruce ################### From: "R B" Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:59:50 -0800 Subject: First Day Of Issue: US Carnivorous Plants Stamps The First Day of Issue for the US CP stamps will be on August 23 in Chicago, Illinois. Ron ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:51:57 -0300 Subject: Re: Which countries are richest in CP? To all, Sorry for the disappearance, but I've got my hands full here with Carnaval, Bruce Salmon's sister who's here visiting, and all!! :):) I still owe a bit on CPs seen in Chile, I know.... And as for which country has the most CPs... > > >Could anyone comment on which countries (or areas) in the world are richest > > >in number of carnivorous plant species? > > I'd say Western Australia, South Africa, and maybe Brazil/Venezuela... > > Miguel de Salas > It has to be North Carolina, South Carolina, and Florida in the USA for > Genus. > Dionaea, Drosera, Sarracenia, Pinguicula, and Utricularia. In the US > Florida for species. > Miguel how do you figure Brazil? > I agree with Australia and think Boreno should be added for Nepenthes > species America-centric! HA! :):) Is it really true that the USA has the most genera growing together in a single area? Let's see... in Western Australia we have Utrics, Drosera, Byblis, Aldrovanda (now in the N and S!), and..... well, ex-Polypompholyx. Close!! Let's see then, in NE Australia we have Utrics, Drosera, Byblis, Aldrovanda, and -- HEY! -- Nepenthes too!! OK, so out with the "USA has more" hypothesis... What about total genera? The USA has: Dionaea, Drosera, Sarracenia, Darlingtonia, Pinguicula, and Utricularia, a total of 6. Brazil has: Drosera, Utrics, Genlisea, Heliamphora, Catopsis, Brocchinia -- 6 too!. Not to mention Ibicella, which if you consider a CP would then bring Brazil to 7 genera. Hey, and there's Venezuela too which has the same genera as Brazil MINUS Ibicella but PLUS Pinguicula! So the trophy of most CP genera goes to... Brazil and/or Venezuela (not the USA). As for number of CP species, you could mention Borneo or Sumatra for Neps, but then why not mention Venezuela for Helis, Brazil or Venezuela for Genlisea, Australia for Drosera, etc. Why the Nep bias??? :):) But anyways, in total number of species for any one country, why YES Brazil!! You forget Utrics are CPs too!! And guess which country has the most species... Last I counted from Jan's database, I think it was Brazil, with Venezuela in second, and Australia in third. Not sure now. But I **DO** remember that I counted country by country and surprised myself with the result: Australia first, Brazil second, and Venezuela third. I think South Africa was far behind -- after all it's got a lot of Drosera, but little else. Although a recount would have to be made for Indonesia, with all those new Neps recently... Best Wishes, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil ################### From: "Michael Hunt" Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:44:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Which countries are richest in CP? take a peek Fernando Hey Fernando, I was the other guy to go with you and Bob McMorris on your last trip in Florida. and I agree with some of what you say but your smugness shows. One can get carried away with the very technical questions of diversity within a species as you like to do with Drosera and Utric's. Over the next several decades Botanist will class and re-class the species and sub species over and over with no one Botanist agreeing. Species will be named and renamed, but is that the nature of the question as it was asked? I did not make my comment to say the USA is the best with flora. There is no doubt I love my country over any other, but that is another matter So don't take everything so personal., your response was a little uncalled for. If you don't care for Americans or the USA that is ok but I did not mean to mock any other country as your response indicates. This nomenclature makes a great living for Botanist trying to obtain grants and make a living, and is very important work. Yet as done with many Succulent Genus gets a little bit tiring for the layman or hobbyist. (read: boring) I doubt many growers or hobbyist will really get into Cataopsis, but that to grows in south Florida so by your words we will add another Genus to Florida. Ibicella, is naturalized and growing well in southern Arizona west to southern Ca, so again by your words another Genus. Still this plant has very low appeal to anyone other than very dedicated specialized people. But is very available through many succulent nurseries of that region of the country Fernando lets not forget Passionflowers. Passiflora foetida, grows abundantly in South Florida, so maybe another genus. So except for the areas that have been explored by you and the Germans with the new Heliamphora, Brazil simply does not have the more dynamic carnivorous plants that are sought after to grow. Now this could change and maybe some more interesting plants will be discovered. But how many sub-species of D. montana can there be? Of course this is my opinion, and many of the interesting Utric's are both wonderful and beautiful as are the central American Pinguicula without a doubt. So, now thanks to your help the USA has 9 known Genera, certainly not the most species but still in top 3 world wide for interesting, well known, plentiful, and diversity of Genera and species. Dionaea and Sarracenia............ I knew when I posted that reply, I would get some flack, I should have made it more clear what I meant. I think what we have here is just a differing view between someone with a scientific interest and a grower. There may someday be 275 different species of Drosera in Brazil and hundreds of sub-species after that. But will they be all that different from merely a horticultural point of view? And will Utricularia swallow up Genlisa in the future? It is possible. And will Aristolochia species be found that is carnivorous? Don't get your shorts in a wad. Take care, ~ Mike > > America-centric! HA! :):) Is it really true that the USA has > the most genera growing together in a single area? Let's see... in Western > Australia we have Utrics, Drosera, Byblis, Aldrovanda (now in the N and S!), > and..... well, ex-Polypompholyx. Close!! Let's see then, in NE Australia we > have Utrics, Drosera, Byblis, Aldrovanda, and -- HEY! -- Nepenthes too!! OK, > so out with the "USA has more" hypothesis... > > What about total genera? The USA has: Dionaea, Drosera, > Sarracenia, Darlingtonia, Pinguicula, and Utricularia, a total of 6. Brazil > has: Drosera, Utrics, Genlisea, Heliamphora, Catopsis, Brocchinia -- 6 too!. > Not to mention Ibicella, which if you consider a CP would then bring Brazil > to 7 genera. Hey, and there's Venezuela too which has the same genera as .....Ibicella > goes to... Brazil and/or Venezuela (not the USA). ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:02:59 +0000 Subject: Countries richest in CP's Hi Paul, You found Drosera uniflora in Belize??? Isn't that rather north of its usual range? What sort of conditions was it growing in? NigelH > Belize happens to have quite a range of Utricularia, Catopsis is present as are the occassional red rosetty > thing, though for some strange reason people seem particularly keen on D. uniflora which grows there (and > once I even collected it - ad then gave it away to an American friend). I'd guess it could be second or third > on the list. > ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:09:01 +0000 Subject: Re: Which countries are richest in CP? take a peek Fernando I think the original question asked which country had the most species. Since Drosera and Utricularia are the largest genera, my guess would be a country which has an abundance of both. Australia and Brazil (and potentially Venezuela) are the obvious candidates. Of course, you have to wonder what the original questioner meant by CP - does it include sub-carnivorous plants like Darlingtonia, Byblis, Heliamphora etc? NigelH ################### From: Jan Schlauer Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:33:44 -0500 Subject: Primitive cps Dear Steve & al. > An interesting observation about Nepenthes and some species of Drosera. I > wonder if anyone has attempted to map the genomes of all CP's yet, and what > they would find. That is, if there were indeed some links between the two > CP's. Quite a few such studies have indeed been performed already, and there is substantial and growing evidence to prove such affinities, i.e. Nepenthaceae and Droseraceae are closely related, and they form a monophyletic group together with Ancistrocladaceae, Dioncophyllaceae and Drosophyllaceae; this group is called Nepenthales, as further members, the order includes the non-carnivorous families Plumbaginaceae, Polygonaceae, Frankeniaceae, and Tamaricaceae; the exact position of the more remotely related Simmondsiaceae is not entirely clear yet. > And, perhaps species like Cephalotus are a leftover intermediate > stage, This does not seem to be the case. If you have read my recent treatise on pitcher morphology on this list carefully, you will have discovered that the pitchers of _Nepenthes_ and _Cephalotus_ are not homologous organs (e.g. the lid is formed from the base of the peltate lamina in _C._ and from tissue near the apex of a bifacial lamina in _N._, so the difference is almost as large as the one between Protostomia like insects and Deuterostomia like vertebrates!). Genetical evidence assigns Cephalotaceae to a Rosid order of uncertain affinity (Oxalidales, containing Elaeocarpaceae, Cunoniaceae, Oxalidaceae and others), while Nepenthales is unambiguously Caryophyllid in all analyses. > where there was pitcher growth, but monoeceous behavior was retained. Not in the light of morphological, phytochemical, or genetical evidence. > > Also, if there is a link between sarracenia, heliamphora, and darlingtonia > - all being true pitchers, and all residing in the North/South Americas, > each with it's own distinct habitat - hot humid temperate - tropical - and > cool temperate. Darlingtonia a newer species than Sarracenia, This does likewise not seem to be the case. The single published genetical analysis of Sarraceniaceae that I am aware of places _Darlingtonia_ at the base, the two remaining genera being more closely related to each other. > and > Sarracenia newer than Heliamphora. This cannot be resolved unambiguously yet. > The global climate changes, and the > various ice sheets, would have affected the way the common ancestor of these > pitcher plants adapted. Glaciation seems to have affected only _Sarracenia_ directly. The remaining genera appear to be dependent on specific mountain systems. But the effect of past climatic change on the distribution of these plants is difficult to assess because there are AFAIK no fossil remnants from outside the present range of the respective species. > It may have once ranged on both continents, but > climate changes caused specific adaptations resulting in three mutant > species of pitchers. If you mean the Sarraceniaceae progenitor with "It" above, this seems indeed to be the best logical explanation of the present distribution patterns. > An educated guess. I would doubt they have much in > common with drosera. Very well educated, indeed! Sarraceniaceae belong to the Theales/Ericales complex in the Asterids s.lat., Droseraceae are Nepenthales (Caryophyllid, v.s.). > But, Nepenthes and Drosera seem to have a lot of > similarities. Yes. See also my paper in CPN 1997 on the same topic. > As for VFT's, they also seem to have a lot in common with > Drosera, except that the sticky pad is folded and mobile. Yes. The similarities are in fact more important than the differences. This is why they are placed in the same family. > Also makes me > wonder if VFT's and Drosera had a common ancestor with Mimosa or some other > mobile plant This does not seem to be the case. _Mimosa_ (Mimosaceae, Fabales, Rosidae) is far remote from Nepenthales. It may, however, be of some interest that Oxalidaceae (incl. the mobile genus _Biophytum_ among others) does belong to the same order as the carnivorous Cephalotaceae. Kind regards Jan in KY (for the next three months) ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:46:57 -0800 Subject: Re: Outdoor bog garden and D. intermedia Hi John, Good to hear your plants have likely survived. I wouldn't completely give up on the vft's, they've survived hard freezes in my collection and have come back in the spring. > >I noticed that the D. intermedia is beginning to grow, but isn't even >rooted >in the soil. I'd like to take advantage of this and move some of them to >better spots. What do I need to do for them? Should I place them on the >top of the soil or just bury the base a tiny bit? Thanks in advance for >all >advice. > I would bury the plant just up to the base of the rosette. Any deeper and you're risking the chance of rotting the plant and losing it. Happy growing, Chris ################### From: Michael Pagoulatos Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:56:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Outdoor bog garden and D. intermedia John Green wrote "...I noticed that the D. intermedia is beginning to grow, but isn't even rooted in the soil. I'd like to take advantage of this and move some of them to better spots. What do I need to do for them? Should I place them on the top of the soil or just bury the base a tiny bit? Thanks in advance for all advice.". >John, I'd bury the base a tiny bit so that the plant stays more wet during the hot summer months. I'd also plant it close to the edge of the bog (or the lowest part, if the bog is not flat) where it is the most wet, since these bad boys like it really wet. Mine are starting to grow also! Take care, Michael Pagoulatos Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. ################### From: "pepe gaut" Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:58:45 -0000 Subject: So sad you lose Hello, OHHH don't American's hate to lose! :-(o Au Revior, Pepe. ################### From: john green Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:55:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: First Day Of Issue: US Carnivorous Plants Stamps > From: R B [mailto:eklaab@hotmail.com] > > The First Day of Issue for the US CP stamps will be on > August 23 in Chicago, Illinois. > > Ron Anyone know how to go about getting a First Day of Issue cover? I haven't collected stamps since I was a kid, but I've seen them before with fancy commemorative envelopes and I'd like to get one (or more) of those in advance and have it sent to me with the first day cancellation. How do I get this all in advance? Also, to Pepe, yes, we American's hate to lose, but I can't imagine the French like losing? John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:39:14 -0600 Subject: Re: So sad you lose I assume you're referring to the "countries richest in cp species" thread. Frankly - if we were of a nationalistic mindset then we wouldn't give a fart what's growing in some remote bog of some third world country or the fact that it's imminently in danger of slash and burn. Heck, we don't seem to care about our own bogs. However, I prefer a world mindset - when another nation wins and preserves its treasures, we all win, and our future generations win. Mike pepe gaut wrote: > > Hello, > > OHHH don't American's hate to lose! :-(o > > Au Revior, > > Pepe. ################### From: "Butler, Joe" <6butler@jmls.edu> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:53:56 -0600 Subject: RE: First Day Of Issue: US Carnivorous Plants Stamps Yee-haw! Joe (in Chicago) p.s. I looked up the pictures of the stamps on the USPS site: -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 6:08 PM To: Multiple recipients of list CP The First Day of Issue for the US CP stamps will be on August 23 in Chicago, Illinois. Ron ################### From: Terre Golembiewski Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:48:16 -0500 Subject: Countries richest in CP Thank you all, and especially Barry. Jan Schlauer's article contained exactly the information I needed. His article was in Volume 29, September 2000 pages 75-82. (Sorry, I looked to the fantastic web site first for this information and overlooked going back through the CPN) Terre I don't have the article in front of me, but the recent article that Jan Schlauer wrote on CP distributions for CPN (remember the article with table after table?) has exactly this kind of data. >Could anyone comment on which countries (or areas) in the world are >richest in number of carnivorous plant species? Cheers Barry ################### From: Wilson Roberto Bastazini Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:03:21 -0300 Subject: unsubscribe ################### From: "Fre de rik" Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:36:48 +0100 Subject: VFT cultivar Hello, while surfing I bumped into this picture ( http://www.carnivoren.org/species/dionaea/Venus2.jpg )showing several forms of VFT. The one in the left-bottom corner is the reason I'm posting this (minutissimum), and I wanted to know if this is a cultivar that remains dwarfed or am I misinterpreting this photo? You have to admit it looks very interresting... Thanks in advance, Frederick Depuydt Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ################### From: "R B" Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 16:38:19 -0800 Subject: Question on Darwin's book I noticed that the 1st edition of Darwin's "Insectivorous Plants" is 462 pages. Later editions of the book is 376 pages. What was choppped out from the earlier edition (86 pages worth)? Ron ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:59:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Hardy utrics > they'd need to be replaced by fresh stock since they're not 'hardy'. Well, > I looked at the pot this weekend and yes, U.sandersonni successfully > overwintered and is growing again! > > What does this mean? This means that this little Utric managed to > survive a week of about -5C weather with daytime highs just above freezing. > However, the pot stayed frozen for that entire time. > > So, I guess we've got to give a little more credit for these plants. > They seem to be able to take more abuse than what I thought was reasonable! Dear Chris, Are you sure that the plants survived, or did they come back from seed? Dave Evans ################### From: "Fernando Rivadavia" Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:05:57 -0300 Subject: Re: Which countries are richest in CP? -- whatever! Hey Mike, > > America-centric! HA! :):) Sorry you took it the wrong way, I didn't mean to offended you or anyone else. Sorry again if I did. Thought two smiley faces in the beginning were enough... maybe I should've distributed a few more along the way to show more humor -- you think? > So don't take everything so personal., your response was a little uncalled > for. If you don't care for Americans or the USA that is ok but I did not > mean to mock any other country as your response indicates. I didn't take it personally and didn't wish it to sound that way, so please read my mail over again with as many smiley faces as you please. Peace??? > One can get carried away with the very technical questions of diversity > within a species as you like to do with Drosera and Utric's. Over the next > several decades Botanist will class and re-class the species and sub species > over and over with no one Botanist agreeing. Species will be named and > renamed, but is that the nature of the question as it was asked? Or is it the nature of my reply??? Please read again, I'm sure I mentioned Jan's database in there somewhere, not my personal opinion as to how many D.montana subspecies there are. Not a single word in fact. > I doubt many growers or hobbyist will really get into Cataopsis, but that to > grows in south Florida so by your words we will add another Genus to > Florida. Didn't see it in Jan's database, maybe I got mixed up with the codes (117: Central America, 118: West Indies, 120: Guayana, 121: Amazonia), my mistake! > Ibicella, is naturalized and growing well in southern Arizona west to > southern Ca, so again by your words another Genus. Well if we are to consider naturalized plants, we may just as well consider cultivated plants too. So who has the most genera in a single collection? I'd say the guys at Bonn, who as far as I remember have them all, and are the only ones who have Triphyophyllum, to my knowledge... All the Best, Fernando Rivadavia Sao Paulo, Brazil P.S. If it makes you feel any better, Brazil is neither first nor second in Drosera species (neither in Jan's database nor in my own personal scientific boring taxonomic view). Hell, it might not even be third or fourth! P.P.S. Hope we can go out CP-hunting again in Florida someday -- maybe to search for Catopsis... ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 21:21:45 -0500 Subject: Re: U. asplundii Dear Phil, > > The first flower on _U. asplundii_ has opened and I have tried > > self-pollinating the flower. > > what mix can be successfully used? Normal peat/sand? > > > I've not seen seed of this species but many of this group of Utrics have > seed with a very short viability. > > I would use whatever mix you grow the plant in for the seed. Well, that's just the thing. It seems like this plant dislikes soil and prefers to grow in the nosehair moss that pops up in the CP pots. This moss is known for it's tendency for smothering seedlings, so I'm not sure if the seedlings _U. asplundii_ will like it much... Is it time for an experiment? Dave Evans ################### From: Earl Nishiguchi Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:15:38 -1000 Subject: Nepenthes seed How long can I keep lowland Nepenthes seed and still have them germinate? According to 'The Savage Garden', storage in refrigerator can kill the seed of lowland species. ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 12:41:53 +0100 Subject: Utrics and "nosehair" moss (was: U. asplundii) Dave Evans wrote: > Well, that's just the thing. It seems like this plant dislikes soil and > prefers to grow in the nosehair moss that pops up in the CP pots. This moss > is known for it's tendency for smothering seedlings, so I'm not sure if the > seedlings _U. asplundii_ will like it much... Is it time for an experiment? I only grow two species of utrics (_U. humboldtii _ and _U. sandersonii _, everybody is invited cordialy to increase that number ;^>. ), so I'm far from being an expert here, but the above brings my to another point: Once, on a very boring day I decided to carefully pick all the "nosehair" moss from the pot of _U. sandersonii_. (Actually it took three boring days, you need a lot of patience to do this.) It looked marvellous! All the tiny green not-really-leaves on the background of the dark peat with no moss around! :o) A week later the utric was apparently dead. :o( I thought I had damaged the underground parts of the plant(s) and felt like kicking myself. I left the pot as it was, and one or two month later it was cover with the moss again. After another couple of weeks: tatta! the first stolons of _U. sandersonii_ were back. :o) Soon the pot was filled again and some plant dicided to settle over to a new, mossfree, nearby pot which is home of an Alice Sundew. It went there using the normally underground parts like a tentacle, grew into the ground and disappeared. Some weeks or month later one side of the sundew-pot was covered with "nosehair" moss on the side close to the utric-pot, due to spores from the other pot, I guess. Little time later _U. sandersonii_ popped up, restricting since then its growth strictly to the area that is already covered by the moss (that's growing larger, of course). All this could be pure coincidence, I know. Is there anybody who made similar observations? Or is there anybody growing _U. sandersonii_ mossfree? Take care, Marcus ################### From: "Steve M. Findak" Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:45:58 -0500 Subject: Re:First Day Covers Finally a question that I can answer with some authority. You can purchase first day covers in many ways. Do it your self, Directly from an US post office or from a catalog. The easiest way I found is from the catalog or directly from the post office. Taken off of the Post Office Web Site with some minor editing HOW TO ORDER THE FIRST DAY OF ISSUE POSTMARK Customers have 30 days to obtain the first day of issue postmark by mail. They may purchase the new stamps at their local post office, address an envelope (to themselves or others), and place the envelope in a larger envelope addressed to: After applying the first day of issue postmark, the Postal Service returns the envelope through the mail. There is no charge for the postmark. Catalog: Stamp Fulfillment Services also offers the first day covers for new stamp issues and postal stationery items postmarked with the official first day of issue cancellation. Each item has an individual catalog number and is offered in the quarterly USA Philatelic catalog. Customers may request a free catalog by writing to: INFORMATION FULFILLMENT, US POSTAL SERVICE, DEPT 6270, PO BOX 219014, KANSAS CITY MO 64121-9014, or by calling 1 800 STAMP-24. First day covers remain on sale for at least one year after the stamp's issuance. If you go here you can look at what is being offered. It is a little difficult to navigate but if you select Stamp Release Schedule from the menu you can see the Carnivores Plant Stamps. http://shop.usps.com/ ################### From: Vitor Fernandes Oliveira de Miranda Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 11:01:05 -0300 Subject: CP tissue culture Dear folks, I'd like to know if someone is working on Drosera tissue culture and, what is importatnt to me, is interested in selling some material. I know Kamil has a fantastic collection (hi Kamil!) but I guess he is just interested in exchanges (am I right, Kamil?). Best wishes Vitor Miranda. ################### From: "Stefan P. Wolf" Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:05:19 +0100 Subject: Re: Question on Darwin's book Hi Ron, > I noticed that the 1st edition of Darwin's "Insectivorous Plants" > is 462 pages. Later editions of the book is 376 pages. What was > choppped out from the earlier edition (86 pages worth)? In the second editions the typesetting was changed so they put more words on each page. Here's the history of the first "IP" printings: The first edition, first printing came in a run of 1000 copies and was thus called "First thousand". It is much sought after and you should prepare to give an arm and a leg to get one. Add your spouse to get it signed by the author :-))) The second thousand (first edition, second printing) had an errata slip with six corrected lines (typos) tipped in. These six lines were corrected in the third thousand but another six typos were found and were again tipped in as an errata slip in this 3rd printing. In 1876 the fourth thousand was published with the same errata slip as in the 3rd printing. We are still talking first edition here... and we are in the UK (mentally, that is). Charles Darwin died 1882. The second edition of "IP" was printed in 1888 (dated 1888 but actually issued 1889). It contains some small corrections as well as textual additions and footnotes which Charles' son Francis Darwin set in Brackets to leave the original text intact. This changed the numbering so to make references easier, Francis set two page numbers on each page -- old and new. Darwin was a respected man. The American issues are from stereos of the British editions. Not all reprints after 1889 are second edition reprints -- the first was also often reprinted. IP was (at least) translated into French, German, Italian and Russian in Charles' lifetime and into Romanian since (published 1965 in Bucharest). >>> Already subscribed to my free CP literature newsletter??? <<< Best regards, Stefan. -- Dipl.-Inform. Stefan P. Wolf ................................................ mail : Zehlendorfer Str. 69, 24111 Kiel, GERMANY tel: (+49 431) 16975232 ** fax: (+49 431) 697568 Carnivorous Plants >>> http://www.karnivoren.com ................................................ ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:46:13 -0500 Subject: RE: VFT cultivar >while surfing I bumped into this picture ( http://www.carnivoren.org/species/dionaea/Venus2.jpg >)showing several forms of VFT. >The one in the left-bottom corner is the reason I'm posting this (minutissimum) My initial impression is that this is results from chemicals used in doing tissue culture of vft. I have no real proof other than seeing a similar thing with some Sarracenia, that is, you get a pot with a bunch of little Sarracenia. This leads me to believe that the result is not genetically induced but rather an artifact that will probably go away as growth conditions change. David ################### From: Borneo Exotics Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:10:12 +0000 Subject: chameleons - or not... Hi Folks, Thanks to everyone who mailed me about the "chameleon" photo at http://www.borneoexotics.com/images/other/chameleon.jpg and yes, I concede that it is not a chameleon after all. I was just showing my ignorance. It seems to be an agamid lizard with camouflage capabilities - I ought to have known really! Anyway, I like them a lot as they are very entertaining. Sometimes they fight hanging upside down from the roof of the nursery. The loser is the one that loses his grip and falls off first. When they fight they always go a combination of red and yellow, with the throat being red. Sadly, the guy in the photograph did explode with the effort, or more likely, just moved someplace else where he didn't have to compete with thousands of Nepenthes for his dinner. Cheers, Rob Cantley Borneo Exotics ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:41:05 +0000 Subject: Re: So sad you lose > > I assume you're referring to the "countries richest in cp species" > thread. Frankly - if we were of a nationalistic mindset then we wouldn't > give a fart what's growing in some remote bog of some third world > country or the fact that it's imminently in danger of slash and burn. > Heck, we don't seem to care about our own bogs. However, I prefer a > world mindset - when another nation wins and preserves its treasures, we > all win, and our future generations win. > > Mike > (Tongue in cheek) does that mean the ICPS is changing to an international mindset and will charge all its members the same, even if they live outside the USA? NigelH ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:17:16 -0800 Subject: Re: VFT cultivar Hi Frederik, I believe this cultivar is the result of high amounts of hormones while in tc. After a few months, I'd bet that it would revert to a normal form. Chris > >Hello, > >while surfing I bumped into this picture ( >http://www.carnivoren.org/species/dionaea/Venus2.jpg )showing several forms >of VFT. >The one in the left-bottom corner is the reason I'm posting this >(minutissimum), and I wanted to know if this is a cultivar that remains >dwarfed or am I misinterpreting this photo? >You have to admit it looks very interresting... > >Thanks in advance, > >Frederick Depuydt > > ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 08:23:28 -0800 Subject: Re: Hardy utrics Hi Dave, > > I looked at the pot this weekend and yes, U.sandersonni successfully > > overwintered and is growing again! > >Dear Chris, > > Are you sure that the plants survived, or did they come back from >seed? > >Dave Evans > I suppose there is the slight possibility that it came back from seed, but I doubt it for a few reasons: 1. I never saw seedpods in the fall (though all it take is one) 2. None of the other cp seed I've sown outdoors has germinated yet (this includes several hardy varieties) and everything else is just starting to grow again 3. The plants look just like fully mature sandersonni So, I think it is the adult plants that managed to survive. I must admit that we had an extremely mild winter with very few freezing days. In a normal year, these plants probably would not have survived. Happy growing! Chris -- Chris Teichreb http://www.geocities.com/cteichreb ("Coastal Carnivores", my homepage) http://www.geocities.com/VCPC2000 (Vancouver Carnivorous Plant Club) ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:40:07 -0500 Subject: PayPal To ICPS officers who are on the list, have you considered using PayPal to accept credit card payments? This would make it easy for non-US residents to pay their dues and order seed. There is a premier account, which charges about 2% for credit card transaction. Not sure if there are additional charges, though, for a receiving account. Maybe others on the list with more knowledge can add to this. PayPal's web address is http://www.paypal.com/ David Atlanta ################### From: Andrew Bate Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:41:01 +0000 Subject: Re: PayPal On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:43:22 -0800 (PST), "Mellard, David" wrote: >To ICPS officers who are on the list, have you considered using PayPal to >accept credit card payments? This would make it easy for non-US residents >to pay their dues and order seed. I agree with David that something should be done to make it easier (and less expensive) for non-US residents to subscribe to the ICPS. I have just recently applied for membership for 2 years and even though the fee was $50 ($25 per year) it worked out that I paid about $70 when I had got all the fees for the bank draft and recorded postage sorted out. Some form of electronic payment (PayPal etc) or even a direct transfer to the ICPS bank account would be a much easier and cheaper option so I don't understand why something like this is not available. Andrew -- andrew@cpuk.org.uk | A UK Specific Guide http://www.cpuk.org.uk | to Carnivorous Plant Resources ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:52:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: March CPN Hey Folks, I am happy to say that the March issue of CPN has been sent out. I hope you've renewed your subscription in time for this! The front cover of the issue shows a close up photograph of a U. humboldtii seed. This seed is remarkable because, being large, membraneous, and transparent, you can see the little plant inside the seed. Plop the seed in water and the plant unfurls before your eyes, like some tiny infant homunculus! Some highlights from this issue: ---A typically exciting article by Fernando Rivadavia, on U. nelumbifolia. ---Two new cultivar names have been established. Ever wonder just what Pinguicula 'Titan' is? Now you can find out. And at last, the yellow-flowered Sarracenia leucophylla 'Schnell's Ghost' has finally joined the ranks of legal cultivar names. Phil Wilson did an extraordinary bit of sleuthing to find out exactly what this plant's characters are. ---Read how a crew of botanists have proven that Triphyophyllum is, indeed, a carnivore! ---Mike Wilder describes a new, "refined" terrarium cultivation method. ---A new pest is hitting Darlingtonia and Sarracenia in cultivation. The news is not good. Read about the Black vine weevil, and what you can do about it. Good job for all involved with this issue! Good reading, it is! Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:42:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: March CPN, addendum Hey Folks, In my recent email mentioning the March CPN, someone wisely pointed out an error on my part. I mentioned something about renewing your subscription to CPN. This is not quite right. The right mindset is to renew your *membership in the ICPS!* Getting CPN is just one of the benefits of the membership. Now, get back to work! B ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:13:39 -0000 Subject: Re: D. uniflora too far north? Nigel >Hi Paul, You found Drosera uniflora in Belize??? Isn't that rather north of >its usual range? What sort of conditions was it growing in? ANSWER 1. How brave - challenging me on Drosera information. :-) With my well known fascination with this genus, what can I say about D. uniflora in Belize? OK - I was out walking in a damp flat area and realised I was treading on these weedy looking red rosetty things. Since there were lots of them (and I do mean lots!), I took one and gave it to a friend in the USA. He told me it was D. uniflora. Actual area was at Sea Level (in the trade that's called a SoBo - stating the bloody obvious - as Belize doesn't really have anywhere that isn't at Sea Level!!!), sandy loam, quite open with very sparse tree growth, hot (very hot), humid (very humid), damp, not wet, so despite low location it was wellenough drained to not be wet (and I was there in the rainy season). Now I would like to claim I spent many weeks studying the leaves and flowers and checking the keys to see if it really was D. unifora. But gee, I just didn't have time, despite my intense love of and fascination with Drosera classification. ANSWER 2 I bow to your Drosera knowledge (seriously) and if you tell me it couldn't have been D. uniflora I'll honestly believe you. (Nevertheless my friend in the USA did tell me it was D. uniflora). ANSWER 3 I'll bow to anyone's Drosera knowledge! :-) ANSWER 4 Why am I discussing Drosera? ANSWER 5 I guess I'm now at risk that someone will ask me what the blessed thing looked like!!! Well it was rosetty, small and sticky. Fascinating! I guess I'm even more at risk at having a golden memory destroyed as someone tells me it couldn't have actually been D. uniflora. Aw shucks - I feel a tear welling up! ANSWER 6 Why am I still discussing Drosera? Cheers Paul :-) http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: "Mark Bachelor" Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:04:13 +1100 Subject: Re: VFT cultivar Greetings Frederick, Minutissimum does tend to remain small, however, it frequently reverts to normal size. I maintain a few pots of it by carefully removing any crowns that revert and leaving the smallest plants to grow in their place. The result is a pot of what looks like carnivorous moss, with leaves that are mostly less than 1cm long from base to the tip of the trap. Plants that revert produce smallish compact plants that eventually look like most normal VFTS. Minutissimum grows steadly producing many growing points in a single season, so the loss of a few to reversion in no problem, as long as they are removed before they smoother the tiny plants around them. It was the result of one of our members (VCPS) using a little too much growth hormone on a slow growing TCed plant. \257--------------------------- The one in the left-bottom corner is the reason I'm posting this (minutissimum), and I wanted to know if this is a cultivar that remains dwarfed or am I misinterpreting this photo? You have to admit it looks very interresting... Thanks in advance, Frederick Depuydt Regards Mark T. Bachelor Biology Technician Melbourne Girls Grammar School Voice: +61 (03) 9862 9200 86 Anderson Street Fax: +61 (O3) 9866 5768 South Yarra, 3141 Victoria, Australia ################### From: "Stefan P. Wolf" Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 11:50:19 +0100 Subject: addition to "Question on Darwin's book" I wrote: >> Charles Darwin died 1882. The second edition of "IP" was printed in 1888 (dated 1888 but actually issued 1889). It contains some small corrections as well as textual additions and footnotes which Charles' son Francis Darwin set in Brackets to leave the original text intact. << One could get the (wrong) impression that these corrections and additions came from Francis' pen but in fact he was only the editor. The additional texts were all taken from Charles' own copy of his book which was full of remarks and footnotes. Charles always was his most active critic and so he often scribbled in his works. So actually the second edition was done by Charles -- post mortem. >>> Already subscribed to my free CP literature newsletter??? <<< Best regards, Stefan. -- Dipl.-Inform. Stefan P. Wolf ................................................ mail : Zehlendorfer Str. 69, 24111 Kiel, GERMANY tel: (+49 431) 16975232 ** fax: (+49 431) 697568 Carnivorous Plants >>> http://www.karnivoren.com ................................................ ################### From: Francisco Villalonga Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 04:41:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: have P.cyclosecta and Laueana leaves for change Hi, My P. Cyclosecta is getting out of dormancy and I have about 25 (maybe a few more) winter leaves for change (I also have a couple of P. Laueana). They are about 1cm long. I want to change them for other pings species I don't have (I have cyclosecta, laueana and gygantea). Some nice droseras (like binata's complex) are also welcome, just ask if I like it. I prefer people in Europe as I live in Spain. regards, Paco Villalonga Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. ################### From: Jan Schlauer Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:06:10 -0500 Subject: VFT "cultivar" Dear fellow enthusiasts, none of the plants depicted at the quoted web page is a described (or even registered) cultivar. The page owner is a well-known commercial German cp grower rather famous for creating invalid and unestablished names (some of which are listed in the cp database, but because of the very ephemeral nature of these items, I just cannot claim to have detected all sins of this sort, nor will apparently any of my efforts be sufficient to prevent this bogus-naming). Kind regards Jan ################### From: Davidogray@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:19:27 EST Subject: Re: ICPS and PayPal Hello list readers, to answer a couple of recent questions, yes, we are considering the use of PayPal for the transfer of funds from overseas members. I have used their service a few times myself as an investigation. Any one reading this who has had personal experience or business experience ( good or bad ) with PayPal is encouraged to write me with their experiences at Thanks, and Cheers, David O. Gray President, International Carnivorous Plant Society 3310 East Yorba Linda Blvd. PMB 330 Fullerton, CA 92831-1790 USA http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "Mellard, David" Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:45:56 -0500 Subject: RE: D. uniflora too far north? >- I feel a tear welling up! >ANSWER 6 >Why am I still discussing Drosera? I'm sorry but I can't resist Paul; we need to give you a moniker: Rosetty Paul. David Atlanta ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:16:42 -0800 Subject: Re: Lowland Nepenthes seed Hi Earl, > >How long can I keep lowland Nepenthes seed and still have them germinate? >According to 'The Savage Garden', storage in refrigerator can kill the seed >of lowland species. > Varies with the species. Some can be kept in the refrigerator for a few weeks with little reduction in germination rates, others need to be sown immediately or are killed by cool temps. For all lowland (or highland) nep seed, I generally sow it right away, just to be on the safe side. However, the oldest seed I've successfully germinated was N.madagascariensis after having it in the fridge for about 3 months. Took about half a year to germinate! Chris ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:33:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paypal and ICPS Hey Folks, Thanks for the suggestion of the Paypal thing for ICPS memberships. As a little "behind the scenes" information, getting the ICPS the ability for its non-USA members to send us their membership fees has been a high priority for a while now. We are trying to find the best, cheapest way to do this. We'll keep you posted, but I just wanted to tell you that we are absolutely reviewing a number of payment options. Cheers Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:08:24 EST Subject: pumice vs lava rock Hi List, I can't seem to find pumice(or sharp, course silica sand, for that matter) in this area, but lava pebbles are easy enough to get. Since both pumice and lava rock are volcanic and nature, do they work equally well in soil mixes for say, Nepenthes or are there significant differences? I suspect pumice is lighter and more airy, so maybe lava pebbles mixed with styrofoam(white) might be a good sub. Any input? Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: john green Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:55:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: silica sand (was: pumice vs lava rock) Joe Griffin, Lincoln, NE wrote: > I can't seem to find pumice (or sharp, coarse silica > sand, for that matter) in this area, but lava pebbles I can't answer about the lava rock, but I've had good luck finding silica sand in 50lb bags for about $5 at a home improvement store called Sutherland's Lumber (I think they're based in Kansas). They tend to cater a little more to contractors and construction people than places like Home Depot. Maybe look at places other than HD, Lowes, Eagle, etc. Good luck! John Green Salt Lake City, Utah http://homestead.juno.com/thegreens13 ################### From: "chris" Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:07:17 -0500 Subject: U. sandersonii Hi Marcus, I grow over a dozen species of Utricularia, including U. sandersonii, without moss, algae, or any other "invaders". All of them do very well. I must confess though, when we are talking about nosehair moss, are we talking about a fungus, or about a plant? (Mnium perhaps?) I've kind of gotten lost about what it was. Tale care! Chris F. [HTML file part2 deleted by listprocessor] ################### From: "ek laab" Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:37:23 -0800 Subject: Next Los Angeles CP Meeting Is March 24 The next meeting of the Los Angeles Carnivorous Plant Society will be Saturday, March 24 at the Alhambra Chamber of Commerce, 104 S. First Street. Doors open at 12, meeting starts at 1:00 pm. Admission: $3.00. DIRECTIONS Driving east on the 10 freeway exit Garfield and go north about one mile.Turn left on Main, one block to First Street, then left again another block. Free parking. See you there. Ron ################### From: Susan Ziegler Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:32:47 -0600 Subject: I have cp seeds i want to sprout.. But i'm not sure what kind of soil they need or if they need stratification.. Here's the list.. if anyone has any info on how to germinate these guys, please email me directly, thank you! :) Drosera sp. Drosera rotundifolia Drosera intermedia Sarr. purpurea purpurea Bblylot(??? can't make out this word. the Y could be a J..the O an A...) Sarr. purpurea venosa Sarr. purpurea cicerony x minor Thanks everyone! Susan ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:40:53 -0000 Subject: David Is a moniker the thing like a TV on top of my PC? :-))) Rosetty Paul http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html (Oops - no doubt someone will say this is off topic) ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:09:28 +0100 Subject: P. zecheri and U. longifolia Hi, Some weeks ago I asked about leaf cuttings on P. zecheri and after the encouraging replies, I tried it and now all the severed leaves are budding, thanks. Anyway, to the question. I've seen some photos on the internet of what is supposed to be this species, but is there a sure way to identify this species? The plants on the photos I found are quite variable, so it is very difficult for me to see if my plant is correctly labeled or not. Do this species produce one or two flower stalks at the same time? (BTW, if anyone would like to try identifying my plant I can e-mail photos of it) I also asked the list about U. longifolia (Serra da Araponga, white flower) some time ago and got great responses, but now another question. Has anyone seen different coloration in the foliage of this species? I know plants can exhibit reddish coloration when exposed to strong light, but I find it strange that only few of the leaves in the pot has this red coloration. According to Fernando Rivadavia this white flowered form is an albino, so could it be that this is a sign that I have the normal form in the pot too? Regards, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:55:33 +0000 Subject: Re: D. uniflora too far north? Dear Rosetty Paul!!!! There's nothing I hate more than people who refuse to consider things with an open mind, so I'm certainly not going to stomp all over the possibility of D uniflora being found in Belize - after all, if penguins can adapt to the equator then anything is possible. I seem to remember swapping longitude information with Fernando a couple of years ago, but I can't lay my hands on it. However if D uniflora could be confirmed from Belize, I think it would be well worth recording. Are you still in contact with your friend in the USA? Would your friend feel insulted if I suggested getting a second opinion on the plant from someone who's familiar with it, say Ivan or Fernando? Don't let that tear fall to the ground or your insurers will refuse to pay out for the flood damage because of your contribution! Regards, NigelH ################### From: "Carl Mazur" Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:43:24 -0500 Subject: Storing Sarracenia Pollen Greetings everyone, Does anyone have any experience as to how long sarrarcenia pollen can be stored. I'm planning to do some hybridizing of sarracenia this spring, and no matter how hard I try to get things like flava and psitt to flower at them same time, I can never to it. So.... If I could save the flava pollen for a while, I wouldn't have to worry about getting the flowers to coincide exactly. Best Regards Carl Mazur > ################### From: Phil Wilson Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:16:19 +0000 Subject: Re: U. asplundii Dave, > > Well, that's just the thing. It seems like this plant dislikes soil and >prefers to grow in the nosehair moss that pops up in the CP pots. This moss >is known for it's tendency for smothering seedlings, so I'm not sure if the >seedlings _U. asplundii_ will like it much... Is it time for an experiment? > I guess so. Why not try half the seed on the same moss as the parent is in and half on something more traditional such as peat and sand or live sphagnum. My guess is the seedlings will grow through the nosehair moss - the leaves of this species tend to be quite long, even as seedlings. Regards, Phil Wilson Email: cp@pwilson.demon.co.uk Web Site: www.pwilson.demon.co.uk ################### From: EdwardK674@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:21:54 EST Subject: Philadelphia Flower Show Hi All, The wife and myself went to the Philadelphia Flower Show (Pennsylvania USA) and they had a number of CPs for sale as well as a terrarium that won a best in class award. (There also were some S. purpurea ssp. in one of the larger displays.) The terrarium had P. moranensis, Drosera capensis, and a S. purpurea ssp. planted in it. One dealer had small pots of D. adelea, D. spatulata, P. moranensis, Sarracenia "Dixie Lace", and a Sarracenia for which I can't remember the label. Two dealers had flytraps and a small yellow flowered Ping. I suspect the Ping to be either P. pumilia of P. lutea. I got one of the dealers to admit that the Pings were probably collected in North Carolina (so I'm not sure of the legality), they also had larger potted Nepenths. One dealer had a tray of large P. moranensis, as well as (If my memory is correct) of Nepenth truncata and one other Nepenth. He also had red and green dragon flytraps. Sorry for any misspellings, as it is late and I'm in a bit of a hurry. Ed ################### From: EdwardK674@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:21:55 EST Subject: Florida trip Hi All, My wife had a convention down in Gainsville in the begining of Feb so I flew down to meet her after it was over. We did get to hunt for CPs but only found P. caerulea in the Everglades (and a couple of Utrics I couldn't id as I didn't have any references with me). The Pings were in a damp seepage spot and blooming away. The drought had dried up many of the bogs in the Naples area where we spent most of our time. However a highlight of the trip was when a friend of mine took me out to Orgel's Orchids in Miami [(305) 233-7168]. It turns out that Orgel is Orgel Clyde Brambrett mentioned in the Savage Garden (pp 254, 258-259). I spent several hours over the next two days looking at many Nepenth species and hybrids in a small green house. The green house has very few orchids any more and almost all of it is taken up with Nepenthes. Mr. Brambrett was able to tell the history of almost all of his plants and all of his hybrids. He had several flats of newly germinating seedlings. Some of the seedlings had even started to pitcher. Mr. Brambrett apologized several times that it was starting to get to be more work than he could occasionally keep up with as he repots every year or so due to having to use ground water however it was a wonderful tour and I would recommend calling ahead to stop by if you are in the Miami area. Ed ################### From: "ek laab" Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:28:42 -0800 Subject: Re: Next Los Angeles CP Meeting Is March 24 >The next meeting of the Los Angeles Carnivorous Plant Society will be Saturday, March 24 at the Alhambra Chamber of Commerce. I forgot to mention that this info came from Tom Johnson, the president of LACPS. Also, the date of the meeting was changed from the originally scheduled March 31 to March 24. Ron ################### From: JWi5770869@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:21:50 EST Subject: Ping casabitoensis In a message dated 03/03/01 06:03:00 GMT Standard Time, cp@opus.labs.agilent.com writes: > P. casabitoensis is a protected plant at all it's (3) locations, two of which > are in the park I described. It's > proved impossible to maintain in cultivation so far, partly because it dies > if in contact with water (one drop > kills - believe me.). > Paul, Interesting. Did I read it right,that its in a rain forest? (I presume not though) How does it get enough water to survive? John Wilden Southport Lancs. UK ################### From: "Richard jobson" Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:15:17 -0000 Subject: U. longifolia colouration Dear Christer, I checked the CP Database and the original description of the Pinguicula zecheri can be found in the journal Stapfia vol 10, page 111 (1982) by Speta & Fuchs (I think its an entomology journal??). There is also a picture on the CP database. It will have one flower per scape/stalk. I guess one of the Pinguicula experts will help out further. As for the reddish-purplish colouration on U. longifolia, I also got this when I moved mine to a less shaded spot. The new leaves also showed this colouration but I think (HOPE) the plant is still fine back in the land of oz. And I am sure that 'albino' relates only to the flowers. Best regards, Richard. ################### From: "Gilles Lardy" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:07:17 +0800 Subject: CP photo thief...Epilogue Hi all, Thanks to all of you who helped me find out about the person who had deliberately taken over my pictures for his own use. The guy, a 17yr spanish teenager, answered my e-mail and apologised for taking the pictures and explained that he had no mean to get his own pictures. Well young man, if you read this list let me point to you once again that this is no reason for taking somebody else material without authorisation. You managed to get to the pictures so you may as well send an e-mail to their owner.... Anyway the matter, I believe, has now been solved in an amicable manner. I allowed him to keep using my pictures provided proper copyright information is displayed on it. I encourage everybody who is starting a new webpage not to hesitate to contact other webmasters to get help in getting photographic material. That one was lucky this time because I am a nice guy, but doing this to a company could get you into a lot of trouble.... Gilles ################### From: Ivan Snyder Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:25:35 -0800 Subject: LACP Meeting The next meeting of the Los Angeles Carnivorous Plant Society will be Saturday, March 24 at the Alhambra Chamber of Commerce, 104 S. First Street. Doors open at 12, meeting starts at 1:00 pm. Admission: $3.00. See our new web site at http://www.geocities.com/lacps . There is a photo of me next to a N. merriliana pitcher. DIRECTIONS Driving east on the 10 freeway exit Garfield and go north about one mile.Turn left on Main, one block to First Street, then left again another block. Free parking. WHAT'S HAPPENING Bring in plants for show sale and trade. We usually have a good showing of Nepenthes, Sarracenia , Drosera, Pinguicula, and Utricularia; all the regulars as well as the occational rarety. Meet with other local growers and learn growing tips. Sean Samia has promised to bring in lots of his awsome Drosera petiolaris complex species and hybrids, Nepenthes and some Pings. The new LACP Seedbank will be open for buying and trading seed stock. PRESENTATION Tom Johnson and Nathan Fowkes will give a show on their trips to Florida to see wild CPs. See you there, Ivan Snyder Hermosa Beach California ################### From: Christer Berglund Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:05:06 +0100 Subject: re: U. longifolia colouration Hi, and thanks for the reply. P. zecheri: The photo on the CP data base is one of the photos I've seen, but I don't know if it this one is typical of what this species should look like. U. longifolia: I don't know much about albinism (as you probably understand), but I was spurred to ask this question not only because the difference in my plants, but also after seeing both of these forms side by side on a photo on the Brazilian CP home page. The white flowered form has a green flower stalk while the pink form's flower stalk is much darker. Thought it was better to ask the question and risk looking stupid, rather than not being sure. Thanks again, -- Christer Berglund E-mail: christer.berglund@privat.utfors.se ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:32:57 +0100 Subject: Re: "nose hair" moss > I grow over a dozen species of Utricularia, including U. > sandersonii, without moss, algae, or any other "invaders". All of > them do very well. Okay. Obviously, it's been pure coincidence. > I must confess though, when we are talking about nosehair moss, are > we talking about a fungus, or about a plant? (Mnium perhaps?) I've > kind of gotten lost about what it was. It's a plant. I'm not a botanist, so I don't know what kind of moss it is. Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not even sure that it is the same stuff which Barry and Michael used to refer to. My stuff is green (really??!?) and pops up little "stems" from which presumably spores are spread. Greetings, Marcus ################### From: Michael Vanecek Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:13:20 -0600 Subject: Re: "nose hair" moss Sounds like the little patches of moss I'd see in the forest, especially where it's humid and damp. Real fine green fuzzy stuff. I've seen this stuff used for bonsai displays. Is this the same stuff you have? What compost mixture are you using? I can't imagine this moss growing on pure live spagnum, but I can imagine it making a home on a digested or chopped peat/sand mixture that's kept damp. It kinda makes a tight "turf" on the surface of the growing media, right? Heh, if anything, you can cultivate the stuff and sell it to bonsai enthusiasts... Mike Marcus Rossberg wrote: > > > I grow over a dozen species of Utricularia, including U. > > sandersonii, without moss, algae, or any other "invaders". All of > > them do very well. > > Okay. Obviously, it's been pure coincidence. > > > I must confess though, when we are talking about nosehair moss, are > > we talking about a fungus, or about a plant? (Mnium perhaps?) I've > > kind of gotten lost about what it was. > > It's a plant. I'm not a botanist, so I don't know what kind of moss it is. Actually, now > that I think about it, I'm not even sure that it is the same stuff which Barry and Michael > used to refer to. > My stuff is green (really??!?) and pops up little "stems" from which presumably spores are > spread. > > Greetings, > Marcus ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:01:19 -0000 Subject: Re: P. casabitoensis >> P. casabitoensis is a protected plant at all it's (3) locations, two >> of which are in the park I described. It's proved impossible to >> maintain in cultivation so far, partly because it dies if in contact with water (one drop kills - believe me.). >Interesting. Did I read it right,that its in a rain forest? (I >presume not though) How does it get enough water to survive? Well John, you sort of read it right (or I sort of wrote it right!). Rather than a rain forest, it lives in an elfin cloud forest, which is at the top of a rain forest. Don't ask me what the word elfin means (well I do know, but I don't know what value it adds to the "cloud forest" bit which seems to say all that's necessary). The mountain (Casabito) is high enough to be in perpetual cloud from late afternoon (say 4 pm) to morning (say 8 am). In addition, the cloud can blow in and descend rapidly at any time of day, and usuually does. And all this happens without a storm so a storm is yet another source of cloud. However, although the cloud is damp and obviously saturates the air, it doesn't turn to rain (which it does at lower altitude - thus the rain forest below). So epiphytic plants (as well as many plants that are not epiphytes but live in such conditions) get all the water they need via the air and are usually adapted to "breathe" in the water through their stomata. As to P. casabotoensis, I've had three attempts at growing it and another with it's close relative in Cuba, P. lignicola. Both plants hate to be touched by water. A single drop left on one plant caused one specimen to rot. (It wasn't burnt as can happen when a drop sits on a plant which is also in the sun. It just rotted. It took 48 hours.) I transport them by occassionally dunking the plant in water and then shaking it dry, completely dry. This keeps it alive. However, once at home, this process does not keep the plant healthy and it eventually weakens , gets smaller, changes colour (fatal sign in Pings) and dies. I've tried various humidity ranges from 80% up to 100% and none succeed. Clearly the plant wants no water via roots. All the roots are shrivelled, dry and hair thin, used only to maintain a purchase on the tree. It seems all these roots are created early in life and the plant is dependent on them, for it's position on a tree, thereafter. (Interestingly, I think Casper may have made a mistake when he drew a specimen of either P casabitoensis or P. lignicola and described one feature as a new white root. I don't believe this was so and I expect what was drawn was a flower stem!) By now, people are probably raring to write and tell me how to grow the species. So let me add in time to stop them that I clearly did not have the conditions right. Temperature is probably a small part of it. In the day the temperature is a Caribbean high, say 85F (say 28C). At night it drops to somewhere around 45F (say about 10C). It's hard to mimic such a wide daily range but I've managed to get near it (such cold is hard to mimic in a temperate climate during summer, yes - even in the UK). It's also hard to maintain 100% humidity while dropping the temperature to such a low level. I can do that but at the cost of hundreds of gallons of water that constatly have to replenish the humidty. (But I've since discovered a better humidifier that might solve this problem). In the wild the plant grows in the bottom of the top third of the canopy, where it gets good light. I can mimic the semi-shade easily. However, what I haven't yet managed to try are two extra features. First, at the top of Casabito its certain the UV light levels are high and the plant may have a dependency on this. From memory I believe Juerg finds UV light necessary to maintain healthy specimens of some of his alpine Pinguicula species. I need to try this. I also need to try adding a constant air movement. It's not really noticeable but on Casabito (and usually in all cloud forests) the air is never stagnant. I've bought a computer fan and will set it up to create a breeze, when I can get a legal specimen or two to try growing again. (There's a marvellous tree on Casabito. It is just like those described in fairy tales. It's got long thin but strap like leaves that dangle from a rich branch structure to create a dome shape (for those familiar with it, think of a weeping willow). The leaves are so light that they literally shimmer or tremble in a breeze. So the whole tree appears to be trembling all the time, evidence of a constant breeze. Stunning!) I suspect that what is required is the correct balance of humidity, temperature, breeze and UV light. If anyone is an expert on these, in particular with regard to minute orchid species that grow in similar high altitude conditions, please feel free to write to me privately (paultemple@bigfoot.cm). Finally, as many people know, plants can tolerate a different life style if grown in vitro. This may be the best or only way to se this species enter cultivation. Despite written help from experts, I don't really use in vitro methods. My learning style is not to read, I like to watch and do. So if someone lives in the UK, is good with in vitro and if they are a travellable distance from me (allowing for Foot and Mouth, which I don't have, yet, but might restrict travel in some locations), then I'm open for an invitation to come and watch/try doing all the things one needs to do. My next chance to see P. casabitoensis will be some time this year, hopefully May. There is a better chance to obtain specimens later in December when I hope to return again. P. lignicola is more elusive. I know exactly where it is, and with in vitro knowledge know exactly when to visit to collect suitable material. I'm even in a unique position to be allowed to try growing it. But getting there will cost a fortune and apart from the money, I simply haven't got the time. By the way, I estimate it costs about 1000 UK pounds sterling for each Cuban species that I succeed in bringing back to the UK (only to see some refuse my attempts at cultivation!). Hope this answer is complete. Cheers Paul ################### From: "Mark Bachelor" Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:48:28 +1100 Subject: Re: VFT "cultivar' minutissimum Although this plant was the result of too much hormone, I have been successfully growing them for three years, despite reversions. However, the original owners (Triffid Park) and the original creator ( a TC company owner) have given up on it completely. It was never meant to be anything more than an interesting oddity, but has been passed off by others as a cultivar, which it is definitely not. \257----------------------------------- I believe this cultivar is the result of high amounts of hormones while in tc. After a few months, I'd bet that it would revert to a normal form. Chris > Regards Mark T. Bachelor Biology Technician Melbourne Girls Grammar School Voice: +61 (03) 9862 9200 86 Anderson Street Fax: +61 (O3) 9866 5768 South Yarra, 3141 Victoria, Australia ################### From: "Richard jobson" Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:21:11 -0000 Subject: Tim Malcolm Hello, I am wondering if Tim Malcolm is on this list or if anyone could possibly send me his email address? Also, if anyone has any spare Utricularia subulata seed available (cleistogamous is fine)I would be interested in buying a supply. Best, Richard. ################### From: Kit Halsted Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:16:17 -0500 Subject: The Horror... Aaargh. I just have to vent where people will understand my pain... My girlfriend & I moved from one part of Brooklyn to another under less than optimal circumstances in mid December. Part of "less than optimal" was sharing the excellent new apartment with slob-o-rific roommates for the first 6 weeks, so we're really just getting started settling in, painting & cleaning & unpacking. I didn't worry about getting my plants from the refrigerator into pots last week, since the weather forecasters were calling for a foot of snow, & even without the blizzard it was incredibly cold. I figured I'd do it this weekend, when temperatures are more seasonable, so I opened up the fridge &... My girlfriend had cleaned it. All the science experiments left by the former roommates were gone, no more half-empty bottles of flat Coke, no more moo-goo gai-yuck, and... NOOOOOOOOO!!!!! NO MORE PLANTS! My plastic bag of Sarracenia had gone out in the garbage with the plastic bags of old Chinese food. It wasn't my entire collection, my VFTs, Drosera, & about half of my Sarracenia are currently in a friend's back yard, but still. Aaargh! And I won't know for a while whether the plants that stayed outside survived the Winter. -Kit ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:58:16 -0500 Subject: Re: The Horror... Dear Kit, > NOOOOOOOOO!!!!! NO MORE PLANTS! My > plastic bag of Sarracenia had gone out in the garbage with the > plastic bags of old Chinese food. Ouch!!! Man, that is a horror story. BTW, did that N. * intermedia ever root/become established for you? Dave Evans ################### From: "Marcus Rossberg" Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:53:13 +0100 Subject: Re: "nose hair" moss Mike, what you discribe is rather compact stuff, right? "My" moss (I can't believe I'm really saying that!) is rather fluffy, surely not the moss they use for bonsai. (Too bad, another possibility to earn me a living down the sink... ;^) thanks for the tip anyway.) Yes, it grows on peat, but here and there also competes with live sphagnum. Anyway, I really can't grow _U. sandersonii_ in live sphagnum, I guess. Greetings, Marcus > Sounds like the little patches of moss I'd see in the forest, especially > where it's humid and damp. Real fine green fuzzy stuff. I've seen this > stuff used for bonsai displays. Is this the same stuff you have? What > compost mixture are you using? I can't imagine this moss growing on pure > live spagnum, but I can imagine it making a home on a digested or > chopped peat/sand mixture that's kept damp. It kinda makes a tight > "turf" on the surface of the growing media, right? Heh, if anything, you > can cultivate the stuff and sell it to bonsai enthusiasts... > > Mike ################### From: Hayes7@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 06:16:19 EST Subject: Re: The Horror... Kit, > My girlfriend had cleaned it. All the science experiments left by the > former roommates were gone, no more half-empty bottles of flat Coke, > no more moo-goo gai-yuck, and... NOOOOOOOOO!!!!! NO MORE PLANTS! My > plastic bag of Sarracenia had gone out in the garbage with the > plastic bags of old Chinese food. Sorry to hear about your loss.... A now more obvious reminder to all us plant folks ~ explain to the significant folks in our lives that the "bags of dirt" actually belong there! Label everything as well.... I was greeted with a very quizzical expression eyeing my 10 yr. old S. leucophylla rhizomes... She was trying to figure out what it was and how we Americans ate it :) One friend asked why I had more bags of "dirt" in the refrigerator than food. To a non-plant person, that was a good question ~ to me it seemed perfectly natural! My collection had just kept expanding and it does much better in a controlled environment. I showed her the 9 x 15 cold frame and explained that after it was full, the rest had to go somewhere. So I got a second refrigerator and now I will never have issues again... Or at least until I fill it up! > It wasn't my entire collection, my VFTs, Drosera, & about half of my > Sarracenia are currently in a friend's back yard, but still. Aaargh! > And I won't know for a while whether the plants that stayed outside > survived the Winter. Hopefully everything else makes it ok for you. Thomas Hayes ################### From: psher001@odu.edu Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:58:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Sarracenia pollen Hi Folks: In brief, Sarracenia pollen can be both refrigerated and frozen for various crosses. We will have a paper discussing this and other METHODS in the future. We recommend the use of microcentrifuge tubes to store the pollen. Sincerely, Phil Sheridan Director Meadowview Biological Research Station Does anyone have any experience as to how long sarrarcenia pollen can be stored. I'm planning to do some hybridizing of sarracenia this spring, and no matter how hard I try to get things like flava and psitt to flower at them same time, I can never to it. So.... If I could save the flava pollen for a while, I wouldn't have to worry about getting the flowers to coincide exactly. ################### From: Jan Schlauer Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:04:49 -0800 Subject: casabitoensis Dear Paul, > My next chance to see P. casabitoensis will be some time this year, > hopefully May. There is a better chance to obtain specimens later in > December when I hope to return again. It will perhaps disappoint you but you will probably *never* (i.e. neither in May nor in December) get such a chance. There is at the most _P. casabitoana_ where you will look for a butterwort. ;-) Sorry, just couldn't resist. Kind regards Jan ################### From: CMcdon0923@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:06:19 EST Subject: Re: Horror... << My girlfriend had cleaned it. ........ NOOOOOOOOO!!!!! NO MORE PLANTS! My plastic bag of Sarracenia had gone out in the garbage with the plastic bags of old Chinese food. >> Think of this as a test of your relationship. (Let us know in a week or so, whether or not she's still around.) ;-) Craig McDonald Frisco, Texas (where the Sarrs. are waking up...) ################### From: wouter Noordeloos Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:04:09 +0100 Subject: Trip to Cp-nursery in Holland Hi Cp-fellows, I want to invite you to come to Carniflora, a Cp-nursery in Aalsmeer, Holland, on Saturday 23 June at 10:30. This is one of the 2 commercial Cp-nurseries in Holland. Carniflora, with Gerard van Dam as the owner, is growing a wide range of CP's, including Sarracenia's (including some nice hybrids), Drosera's and Darlingtonia's. All members of the european CP-societies are welcome and others too of course. I want to ask all the european societies to contact me, so I can give you all the details, so you can publish the trip in your newsletters. E-mail me if you want more details. Take care, Wouter Noordeloos ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:09:24 -0500 Subject: Re: P. casabitoensis Dear Paul, > Clearly the plant wants no water via roots. All the roots are shrivelled, dry and hair thin, used only to maintain a purchase on the tree. It seems > all these roots are created early in life and the plant is dependent on them, for it's position on a tree, thereafter. (Interestingly, I think Casper > may have made a mistake when he drew a specimen of either P casabitoensis or P. lignicola and described one feature as a new white root. I > don't believe this was so and I expect what was drawn was a flower stem!) Do you think that perhaps it does grow roots annually? I find it rather difficult to believe that this plant should only grow roots as a seedling. I think you would not find them on the trees anymore, but on the ground if it could not continuously renew it's hold on the tree... Maybe it only grows roots for a short period of time each year during Cuba's version of 'spring'. Course, if they are annuals or bi-annuals this might not be the case. Dave Evans ################### From: Joe Martinez Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:05:59 -0800 Subject: Bizarre japanese botanical game Check out this URL: http://saru.enix.co.jp/botanical/botanical/index.html Very wierd. Basically, you go into the botanical garden and throw a boomerang at alien creatures. If they land in certain marked spaces, you get seeds and chemicals. Then, you go into the botanical room and combine the seeds with chemicals and plant them in a woman's body (warning: contains nudity, though tasteful and not sexually explicit), where you grow strange plants. Then, you can look up the plants that you grew in a library, then go back and collect more seeds and chemicals. If you grow all of the plants, you win. A couple of the plants look CP-ish. Unfortunately, the text about the plants is in Japanese, which I can not read. Requires shockwave flash to work. -Joe ################### From: Paul Temple Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 07:36:55 -0000 Subject: Casabito... First... > Do you think that perhaps it does grow roots annually? Yes, I think it could, but I've never seen any sign of this. You say that "otherwise" the palants would fall off the trees. Well, they do! Still, I'll need to visit more to check on this root growth issue. > *never* see ... casabitoensis ... LoL Nicely put!! Resist not Jan. My love of plants is handicapped by my total inability to remember names. I have the same problem with people. So I'm very likely to talk about P. moranana or P. casabitoensis and so mislead everyone. I'm always grateful for your corrections and promise that I will give you lots more opportunities! And I'll practice my spelling of names. Does this mean I change from Rosetty Paul to Forgetful Paul? Chau Pawl http://www.ecologycal.com/society.html ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:36:22 +0000 Subject: Re: Trip to Cp-nursery in Holland Hi Wouter, I can't make it in person, but does the nursery have a web site? Regards, NigelH ################### From: Vitor Fernandes Oliveira de Miranda Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:42:39 -0300 Subject: What is Drosera coccicaulis? Dear all, Does anyone know which was the origin of Drosera coccicaulis name? According on CP Database, this is not a valid name. Was it put as D. natalensis synonimous? Vitor Rio Claro-SP, Brazil. ################### From: Killerplants@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 15:07:53 EST Subject: Re: What is Drosera coccicaulis? Vitor, D. coccicaulis is a misnomer for D. venusta. As for where the name came from, I am afraid I can't answer that. Regards, Joe Griffin Lincoln, NE USA ################### From: n.mass.destructor@usa.net Date: 14 Mar 2001 14:50:29 MST Subject: CP's on Costa Rica Hi everyone! Does anybody have any idea of wich species are growing on Costa Rica? please email me privately! Happy Growing, Niels Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ################### From: Andrew Gibbons Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 11:42:24 +1100 Subject: Re: Sarracenia pollen Any pointers on how, Phil? Can pollen to be frozen be stored as collected or does it need to be freeze dried/suspended in glycerol/etc. Is -20 oC OK? Is -70 oC better or unnecessary? Andrew -- psher001@odu.edu wrote -- > Hi Folks: > In brief, Sarracenia pollen can be both refrigerated and frozen for various > crosses. We will have a paper discussing this and other METHODS in the > future. We recommend the use of microcentrifuge tubes to store the pollen. > Sincerely, > Phil Sheridan > Director > Meadowview Biological > Research Station ################### From: Barry Meyers-Rice Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:30:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: CP talk in Buffalo, New York Hey Folks, The web site for the Buffalo Science Center indicates that on 25 March 2001 (Sunday), some schmuck named Meyers-Rice is going to be talking about carnivorous plants. The talk is called "An Insect's Nightmare." http://www.sciencebuff.org/ed_sci_talks.html It may be pretty good. I'm planning on attending. Later Barry ------------------------ Dr. Barry A. Meyers-Rice Carnivorous Plant Newsletter Conservation Coeditor barry@carnivorousplants.org http://www.carnivorousplants.org ################### From: "Dave Evans" Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:51:23 -0500 Subject: Re: What is Drosera coccicaulis? > Vitor, > > D. coccicaulis is a misnomer for D. venusta. As for where the name came from, I am afraid I can't answer that. > Dear Joe, In Jan's wonderful CP database, he has _D. venusta_ listed as a synonym for _D. natalensis_. On the flip side, most of the D. venusta I have seen tended to look more like _D. cuneifolia_. Who knows what might come up from seed obtained as D. coccicaulis... Hopefully, it is as least from a South African _Drosera_. Dave Evans ################### From: "Richard jobson" Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 04:33:24 -0000 Subject: Nepenthes biology Hi there, I recall David Banks asking about Nepenthes reproductive biology last year. Well there is an interesting abstract at: just plug in a search for Nepenthes and/or Christopher Frazier at this site. Best, Richard. ################### From: "David P Banks" Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:35:46 +1100 Subject: Nepenthes burkei Is Nepenthes burkei still recognised as a "good" species? Many of the plants I have seen are basically identical to N. ventricosa. They are both Philippine endemics, but there is little information available on the true N. burkei. What are the taxonomic differences between these taxa? Any info and suggestions welcome. Regards, David Banks ******************************************** David P. Banks Hills District Orchids 39 Carole Street, Seven Hills NSW 2147 Australia Phone (02) 9674-4720 Fax (02) 9686-3303 Editor "Australian Orchid Review" & "The Orchadian". ################### From: Nigel Hurneyman Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:33:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Casabito... The two paragraph "idiot's guide to plant names" section in one of my gardening books says that the suffix 'ana' means looking like or having the characteristics of, and the suffix ensis means found at. But it acknowledges that many plants have been named -ana instead of -ensis or -ii (in honour of, found by) and where these have become established they tend be acceptable. Is this true, and Pinguicula casabitoana ought to be casabitoensis but the name stands just because it's been around for a while? NigelH ################### From: "Chris Teichreb" Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:48:42 -0800 Subject: All talk and no action... ...or more aptly, all roots and no shoots. I know it's been discussed on this list before, the bizarre behaviour of Nep cuttings (forming flowers instead of any new growth, etc.), so I thought I'd share my recent experience. I had taken a bunch of cuttings from my N. x coccinea monster and had them rooting away nicely in the terrarium. Most developed normal, new shoots, however one did something very different. This six inch cutting rooted, and rooted, and rooted. Almost the