################### From: thacker@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 02:50:40 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Australian pines (more of... > I have a few articles from the Aussie press. Except for some photo's, it's > mostly crowing and back patting(cigar smoking?) for the discoverers. > Becky > P.S. We have some Aussies on the line, why am I replying As long as were apparently adopting this subject as an okay off-topic topic, I might as well add my two cents. I think this discovery is fantastic...a group of pines, virtually unchanged for 200 million years, growing in some remote microclimate on the planet. Geez, only 39 of them (23 adult, 16 juvenile), that must be about the rarest plant on the planet. I understand that at least one seedling has germinated in the laboratory, and tissue cultures are being tried also. Just amazing...a fossil that has likely been rescued from the brink of extinction. When we are causing so many things to become extinct, rescuing a few, especially ones like this, seems a really positive kind of thing. Don ################### From: thacker@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 02:59:49 -0700 (MST) Subject: re: darlingtonia On Sat, 31 Dec 1994, peter cole wrote: (Re: Darlingtonia) > It seems to cope better than my Purpurea which I found > surprising. Of course, we don't get many nights that bad here in Wales - > average winter nights -5C -> 0C I'd guess, and very few sub-zero days. I find this surprising also. Perhaps the purpurea haven't been terribly hardy because you don't get the deep snow cover that they receive in their native range? Snow is an amazing insulator. I once killed some purpurea by trying to winter them in a garage which was attached to our house in Ottawa Canada (part of their natural range). I figured the warmth from the house would make for a relatively mild winter. It did when dealing strictly with air temperatures, but in the garage they of course had no snow cover for insulation and froze so solidly that they were dead as doornails in the spring. Don ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Sun, 01 Jan 95 11:20 EST Subject: Australian pines > As long as were apparently adopting this subject as an okay off-topic > topic, I might as well add my two cents. I think this discovery is > fantastic...a group of pines, virtually unchanged for 200 million years, > growing in some remote microclimate on the planet. Geez, only 39 of them > (23 adult, 16 juvenile), that must be about the rarest plant on the > planet. I understand that at least one seedling has germinated in the > laboratory, and tissue cultures are being tried also. Just amazing...a > fossil that has likely been rescued from the brink of extinction. When > we are causing so many things to become extinct, rescuing a few, > especially ones like this, seems a really positive kind of thing. This discovery seems a lttle like deja vu. Were not two other gymnosperm "living fossils", the Ginkgo and the Metasequoia, also discovered from a small stand of survivors? I vaguely remember another botanical wonder discovery a few years back... of a plant where the gynoecium formed a whorl around the androecium (as opposed to the opposite, which is normal for angiosperms)? Was this debunked? Michael ################### From: A.Wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 31 Dec 1994 16:00:00 +0200 Subject: Re: Australian pines (more off-topic) > I have heard a few tantalizing news snippets > about a stand of primitive gymnosperms > discovered very recently in Australia. > Unfortunately, local news sources have assumed > this topic lacks sufficient news-worthiness to > get any further coverage beyond the above > mention. In Germany you read a lot about this in the recent weeks even in daily newspapers! If anyone has access to seeds for in vitro.... ....I _might_ know somebody who _might_ be interested........ ;-) A happy new year 1995 and Good Growing! All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Sat, 31 Dec 1994 22:08:22 +0000 Subject: Re: Tassie Tiger > I think that the Tassie Tiger = Tassie Wolf (my Aust. Concise Oxford Dict. > lists them both as being Thylacinus cynocephalus). We tend to just call > them Thylacines. Microsoft's "Dangerous Creatures" CD has an item on Thylacines (including picture of last one living in captivity). It doesn't feature any carnivorous plants, but Encarta has a few! -- Clarke Brunt (clarke@brunt.demon.co.uk) ################### From: Perry Malouf Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 20:56:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kinabalu Park, the final 1.5 days Kinabalu Park, The Final 1.5 Days After a hearty breakfast, I met my guide in front of the Old Administration building on Thursday at 9 a.m. Today we were going to visit a small village outside of Kinabalu Park, whose Malaysian name translates to "White Sand". It took us about 45 minutes to drive there, at the slow jalopy speed, and again the drive was filled with beautiful mountain scenery. We passed many mountain-side farms where Chinese immigrants were growing various vegetables (broccoli, cabbage, hot chili peppers). One area had several structures that looked like greenhouses, except glass panels were replaced by black cloth. This was a mushroom farm, and the structures provided the perfect growing conditions--dark, warm, and moist. Many of these farms are owned by Chinese but are tended by Indonesian immigrant workers. We arrived in the village of "White Sand", and drove by several groves of cacao, betel nut, and durian trees. My guide saw an elderly gentleman walking along the road and asked him where we might find "periuk kera", the monkey's cup plant (Nepenthes). The gentleman said that he could take us to some, so I let him have my seat in the jalopy and I climbed into back of the flatbed. We drove along the road for another kilometer and parked at the gate of someone's house. The gentleman let us onto the property, past the house and into some fields--we were following a cattle trail. Immediately I could see why this village was called "White Sand", because that's exactly what we were walking on. In places where the few centimeters of topsoil were washed away, there was nothing but clean, fine white sand. On either side of the cattle trail, growing in the topsoil, were several plants of N. gracilis. These appeared like those we had seen the day before, only the plants were larger and had clambored farther through the tall grass and saplings. Pitchers measured about 10 cm high at the most, and were a light green with plenty of red mottling. We continued onward, over a wobbly cable suspension bridge that crossed a creek, and into a wide grassy plain. Here there were more N. gracilis plants, about one every 10 meters on either side of the sandy trail. I found this natural growth of N. gracilis to be very attractive. The plants wound their way upward through the tall grass, securing themselves by coiling tendrils around twigs and branches, and these tendrils produced pitchers which hung from the twigs in clumps of two or three together. There were also a few young plants growing as small rosettes in places where the grass was somewhat sparse. These were the only Nepenthes I saw that day. With the time we had left (most of the afternoon), my guide offered to take me where we might find some Rafflesia. Although I'm mostly a Nepenthes freak, the possibility of encountering the rare Rafflesia was quite tempting, so I agreed. For those who don't know about Rafflesia, I'll mention the few facts I learned about it. Rafflesia is the largest flower in the world and has no stems or leaves. It has five fleshy petals, can grow to about 1 m in diameter, is usually orange-red in color, and has a stench of carrion. It is a parasite, and grows on the roots of a certain wild shrub. The seeds need to be trampled into the earth by some large animal (e.g. a deer) near the roots of its host in order to germinate. On the rare occasion that Rafflesia is found, botanists have a field day. If the flower blooms on private property, the lucky owners make some money by charging admission to those who wish to see it--and most people are willing to pay the price because it is indeed a rare find. We drove to another location outside of the park, near a village whose name I have forgotten already. After parking the jalopy we hiked through some vegetable farms, started along a trail through a forest, then diverted off the trail into that thick forest. This was bush-whacking at its best. There was no trail, the growth was dense, and I didn't have a machete (which is standard equipment around there--every outdoorsman carries one). Fortunately my guide had all the "standard equipment", and he hacked a meager trail for me to follow. I took a moment to look around; every direction seemed exactly the same. There wasn't much light filtering through the treetops, I couldn't see the sun and there were no other reference markers. It must be easy for the inexperienced hiker to get lost in those woods! It wasn't raining, but everything was dripping wet. After a 20 minute hike my guide found a patch of Rafflesia. Unfortunately we were too late to catch one flower at its peak--it had already turned black but still retained its shape. Other flowers were almost completely rotted away. Very close by were some unopened Rafflesia buds, the largest of which (15 cm dia.) was about two weeks away from opening. It was shaped like an oblate spheroid, and the thin black membrane which wrapped it had separated along the top to reveal the enclosed light-orange bud. Another half hour of walking brought us out of that forest and back toward the farms we had passed earlier. We boarded the jalopy and headed back toward the Park, where we arrived at around 4 p.m. The next day we would take a trip to Poring Hot Springs, another research station in the Park, and look for Nepenthes there. This time the Park head botanist would accompany us, and we would have the use of one of the Park's 4- wheel-drive vehicles. On Friday morning I met my guide, the Park head botanist, and some other workers and we drove off. Before going to Poring Hot Springs, we had to drop off the other workers at one of the other field stations where they would go searching for some N. rajah plants. They were going to bring them back for use in an exhibit. Although the Park vehicle was more comfortable and refined than my guide's jalopy, the nasty construction road made for a very tough ride. I regretted having had breakfast, and I was holding tightly onto the vehicle's roll bar along the roof in an attempt to stabilize myself against the jostling. We made it to the field station, dropped off the workers, headed back down that terrible road, and proceeded to Poring Hot Springs. Upon our arrival, the head botanist showed us around. There is a building under construction which will house some brand new tissue culture laboratories. Nearby are some "open greenhouses" where orchids are kept. There were many, many plants collected from various locations in the Park, some of which were in bloom. We departed the orchid collection in time to see four deer stroll by the trail on their way to higher ground. They seemed abnormally tame--perhaps the Park employees feed them. There were no Nepenthes at the research station, but after leaving Poring Hot Springs we found some along the roadside. There were several N. gracilis plants similar to those I had seen in previous days. Nearby was a another rather large Nepenthes vine with pitchers that looked just like N. mirabilis var. echinostoma, a photo of which I had seen in Nature Malaysiana. Each pitcher was about 12 cm high and 2.5 cm in diameter, uniformly green, and the peristome was rather wide and formed a shelf all the way around the mouth of the pitcher. It was the peristome which helped me identify the var. echinostoma. We had to pick up the workers who were dropped off before, and I asked if I might be spared the ride on that construction road. Amusingly, everyone else had the same idea. We all got out at a market place, and the driver went on to pick up the other workers. For a half hour we mulled about, and I was getting quite a few stares from children and some adolescents. I guess they don't see many tall Caucasians around there, and I tried to be on my best behavior so that the locals wouldn't get any bad impressions. In other words, when they stared at me I didn't flip them the finger or stick out my tongue. :) Finally our vehicle came back to pick us up. In the back of the truck were two very large N. rajah plants in a bamboo basket, and one Paphiopedilum orchid which is endemic to Mt. Kinabalu. I noticed that the triumphant workers' trousers were filthy from the thighs down, and this made me feel pretty good. Why? Because I had to bust my fanny to see N. rajah in the wild, and I felt better knowing that even the experienced Park employees had to go through the same misery to find their plants. Okay, call me Petty (instead of Perry). One of the N. rajahs had a male inflorescence, and both had sizable pitchers--one pitcher was 30 cm from tendril attachment to lid attachment, and the lid was almost as long again. These plants were brought inside the new Administration building, to be potted up for the exhibit. With that, I returned to my room and packed my belongings, settled accounts at the Administration Office, and boarded one of the tour buses bound for Kota Kinabalu (the tour buses visit the Park every day). The bus stopped at a farmers' market along the way where wild honey, fruits, and some locally made souvenirs were being sold. After 10 minutes we were off again. It started to rain and continued until we arrived in Kota Kinabalu. In the first installment I made reference to the Hyatt Hotel being a welcome haven after my stay at the Park, and so it was! It was very nice to be in a dry, climate-controlled room with unlimited hot showers and no insects crawling around the floor. Upon some reflection, I realized that this trip fulfilled all of my expectations. I had seen and photographed Nepenthes: rajah, villosa, kinabaluensis, fusca, edwardsiana, tentaculata, lowii, burbidgeae, gracilis, mirabilis var. echinostoma, reinwardtiana, and one species which Kurata's book lists as "unidentified". Of these, only the edwardsiana and the "unidentified" species were not seen in their natural habitat (they were in the Mountain Garden). Also, I had a chance to see the rare Rafflesia flower (though it was past its peak), and I saw a lot of beautiful scenery. The Park staff were cheerful, friendly, very helpful and generous. If I am lucky I'll have another chance to go in my lifetime, hopefully while I'm still able to endure the hikes. ################### From: "Philip F. Wight" Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 18:04:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: CP video show Wouldn't everyone like to ride in Kon Tiki? I would. I supplied some of the radio equipment to Hyerdal for his second expedition, out of my Hongkong office. This was the one that sunk, including my beaut antenna tuner they had promised to return. Oh, well.... Cheers, Phil ---------------------- ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 09:21:32 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: N. rajah > > Hello CP fans, > > I was talking to fellow botanist friend interested in Nepenthes and N. > rajah and N. dentata came up in conversation. I imagine these are not > common in cultivation, but does anyone know if they are available and if so > from whom? > > Thanks and Happy New Year, > Greg Heck > > Uwe Wsetphal (from Germany) grows them in virto. As far as I know he can supply them again in summer. ..Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: ksnive@pstbbs.com Date: Fri, 30 Dec 94 20:16:40 -0700 Subject: I.c.p.s. It appears that both Steve Baker and I have responded to Philip F. Wight's inquiries about his I.C.P.S. subscription privately not thinking that there might be a need to conduct any of the nuts and bolts business openly and wasting peoples time/bandwidth with things that should be privet, but I.C.P.S. has developed a bad reputation for putting people on ignore who have made inquiries in the past. I'm the newly elected secretary treasurer and accepted the nomination because I have some unresolved "issues" that are the result of my having been left on ignore for too long. For those who noticed it was the main thrust of my campaign. >Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 07:17:21 -0800 >From: clastic@metronet.com (Clastic) > >I am not certain...for I last sent in MY re-subscription >fees 5 years ago after being a member for some years...never >received another copy...and the editors never responded to >my mail. Anyone out there want to give me some contacts >that might involve living people? (smile) > >Regards, Clair Clair most of us are here alive and well glad to hear from you I can't make any promises about a 5 year old claim at this time but you can be sure I do take seriously any and all request's for information and or service. I know for a fact that the rest of us feel the same way. Unfortunately I have not yet received the records required to do the research on yours or any other requests yet. (I don't really take office for a few days.) I was into the US post office today trying to get a P.O. Box to conduct I.C.P.S. business through and they told me there will not be any available until Jan. 15 1995. I expect to set one up then and will make it public on or about that date for any one wishing to bypass Fullerton and contact me directly. You can of course also find us here. Pres. Rick Walker walker@opus.hpl.hp.com V.P. Christoph Belanger eheick@acs.bu.edu Sec/Tres Kevin Snively ksnive@pstbbs.com wl-Ksnive-nl@society.com ksnive@prostar.com Pub. Ed. Steve Baker STEVEB4706@AOL.COM Seed Bnk. Thomas Johnson CARNIPLA@AOL.COM I hope we can restore your faith, and THE public's confidence in the I.C.P.S. We work for the love of our society, and the love of these plants. Sincerely, Kevin Snively Secretary I.C.P.S. elect. ################### From: ksnive@pstbbs.com Date: Sat, 31 Dec 94 00:12:59 -0700 Subject: _darlingtonia_ >> Also I'd like to second the request for an estimation of how far north >> Darlingtonia might be winter hardy? I live in zone 6 and would like to >> try it if there is a reasonable chance for survival. >> James. > >Well...mine got down to 15 F and survived just fine, but you have to >remember that this is an isolated occurrence and doesn't last for long. >Seattle has had some really cold snaps - down to 5 or 6, but I chickened >out and brought all my stuff indoors. Kevin, what about you? Kevin >Sniveley lives up north of here where things get considerably colder for >such a small distance. I do not wish to try to set my self up as an authority of any sort on the subject of _Darlingtonia_ but will sight a few references and let you all draw your own conclusions. #1 Sunset New Western Garden Book June 1979 edition Page 268. Zones 4-7 and 14-17 Zone four is listed as the coldest with low temps. ranging between 19 and -7 deg F for the 20 years prior to printing. #2 Carnivorous plants of the Unites States & Canada By Donald E Schnell Page 52. Sea Level to 2800 m. (Well above the winter snow line) #3 Bulletin of the American Rock Garden Society Vol. 50 No. 3 Article by Fredric W. Chase, Jr. Page 210. Moderate winter-hardiness Not recommended for the authors area. ( Central Michigan ) My own experience has been that seed germinates well after winter in my back yard but seedlings die during the same season. Established adult plants do well year after year with the only winter losses due to the grubs of the Strawberry root weevil _Otiorhynchus ovatus_ which eat crowns and roots. Friends are growing _Darlingtonia_ out doors in Vancouver B.C. with no extra protection. >Andrew Marshall here in Seattle did such a setup. He planted a 20 gallon >long aquarium with sphagnum (live) and used an air pump attached to a >long bent tube to keep the water moving slowly. It worked fine. Andrew's article appeared in C.P.N. Vol. 21 No. 3 Page 78 and to my knowledge he is still happy with it. He is also the only one in the area I know who go's to this much trouble to grow this plant. I prefer drip irrigation operating once every three days, and a splash from the hose when I've got it out any way. I also prefer WHITE plastic pots as I believe they absorb less heat than the black ones. Remember that when growing plants out side a light mulch can extend the range well past what would otherwise be expected. Most people still ignore me when I brag about pushing a _Cephalotus_ to 17 deg F last winter or look at me like I'm some kind of nutcase. The the only protection it got was a light peace of land scape fabric and while it lost 7/8 of its original size it is still going. krs ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 11:53:31 -0500 Subject: Re: CP video show I second that, but for now would do with a tule boat. ################### From: barry@mips3.as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 11:26:54 -0700 Subject: TAXACOM >This is a posting from the BEN (Botanical Electronic News) > originally on TAXACOM How do I sign onto these? Barry ################### From: barry@mips3.as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 11:37:21 -0700 Subject: Pings and things >>right with my alpine/boreal Pings because I'm growing >>_grandiflora_ types, _vulgaris_, and _leptoceras_ all the same >Unless I am mistaken, these pings all require a cold dormancy >period. Are the winters in Arizona suitably cold to supply the >dormancy? Or do they receive an artificial winter? I guess I The bottom shelf of my refrigerator is suitably cold. They hide down there in plastic bags during their dormant period. When they break dormancy I stick them in the greenhouse. They respond to this artificial system well, except for the fact that they slowly drift out of synch with actual seasons. So right now my Canadian clone of _P.vulgaris_ and my _P.leptoceras are flowering, and _P.alpina is also growing, while other _P.vulgaris_ clones, and _P.grandiflora_ ssp., and _P.vallisneriifolia_ are dormant. Getting off the CP thread, I see. :) >"In Search of the Mysterious World of Carnivorous Plants" OK, this was funny! So now it's my turn... Recently I was watching MST 3K (a TV show) which presented the old horror flick _The Amazing Colossal Man_. At the beginning of the movie the main character gets burnt horribly. In the operating room scene, I'm SURE you can see the doctors packing the burn victim with moist Sphagnum. I'M NOT JOKING! REALLY! I recall reading it was used as surgical dressing in earlier times. Any medicos in this group know about the use of Sphagnum in wound care? It's good for cuttings too. B ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 95 14:32 EST Subject: TAXACOM I've tried several times to subscribe to TAXACOM, but have failed. My last attempt sent me an error message indicating they were having technical difficulties on their end. It's probably time for me to try again. Michael ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Mon, 02 Jan 95 14:38 EST Subject: Sphagnum and health > Recently I was watching MST 3K (a TV show) which presented the old horror I wouldn't place too much confidence in information gleaned from that show. :-) > flick _The Amazing Colossal Man_. At the beginning of the movie the main > character gets burnt horribly. In the operating room scene, I'm SURE you > can see the doctors packing the burn victim with moist Sphagnum. I'M NOT > JOKING! REALLY! I recall reading it was used as surgical dressing in earlier > times. Any medicos in this group know about the use of Sphagnum in wound > care? Hey, last I heard about Sphagnum from this group was the recommendation to wear gloves and a filter mask when dealing with the stuff! What gives!? Michael ################### From: R Britt Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 12:09:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Sphagnum and health Yes, it is very important to not directly come in contact with live sphagnum. The major health hazard is uncontrolled growth of all tissues, resulting eventually in attacks by USAF figher/bombers. On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Michael.Chamberland wrote: > > Recently I was watching MST 3K (a TV show) which presented the old horror > > I wouldn't place too much confidence in information gleaned from that show. > :-) > > > flick _The Amazing Colossal Man_. At the beginning of the movie the main > > character gets burnt horribly. In the operating room scene, I'm SURE you > > can see the doctors packing the burn victim with moist Sphagnum. I'M NOT > > JOKING! REALLY! I recall reading it was used as surgical dressing in earlier > > times. Any medicos in this group know about the use of Sphagnum in wound > > care? > > Hey, last I heard about Sphagnum from this group was the recommendation to > wear gloves and a filter mask when dealing with the stuff! What gives!? > > Michael ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 22:18:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Chiltern Seeds 1995 I agree with Bob that Chiltern's catalogue is one of the best. They list some 4000-5000 species, so obviously their CP are only a tiny proportion. Most of their packets are between 1 and 2 UK pounds - perhaps more than they would be from a specialist, but I have always had good success with them, including Drosera cistiflora, which seems to be considered desirable. Another list I have is: Doug and Vivi Rowland 200 Spring Road Kempston Bedford MK42 8ND England Their list has more cacti and succulents than anything else, but also includes other interesting stuff, and around 110 types of CP, mainly Drosera, but including most genera e.g. 5 species of Nepenthes, 13 of Utricularia, plus Cephalotus and Genlisea. Their packets are most 0.75 UK pounds. No credit cards as far as I can tell, but personal US dollar cheques are acceptable. -- Clarke Brunt (clarke@brunt.demon.co.uk) ################### From: barry@mips3.as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 14:07:07 -0700 Subject: Thanks and congratulations >>Kinabalu Park, The Final 1.5 Days A great epic, Perry, thanks for taking the time to key all that in. That was great. I'm looking forward to going myself! A great connection you made with the botanist at the park! >Pres. Rick Walker walker@opus.hpl.hp.com >V.P. Christoph Belanger eheick@acs.bu.edu >Sec/Tres Kevin Snively ksnive@pstbbs.com >Pub. Ed. Steve Baker STEVEB4706@AOL.COM >Seed Bnk. Thomas Johnson CARNIPLA@AOL.COM Hey, did I miss the official announcement? In any event, great congratulations to Rick, Christoph, and Kevin for their election victories! Rick, now that you are in power, is it true you're going to take all the plants that are being grown poorly and put them in huge greenhouse orphanages? :) Barry ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Tue, 03 Jan 1995 08:25:43 +0930 Subject: Re: pings Barry, >The bottom shelf of my refrigerator is suitably cold. They hide >down there in plastic bags during their dormant period. When >they break dormancy I stick them in the greenhouse. They >respond to this artificial system well, except for the fact that >they slowly drift out of synch with actual seasons. What do they hide in? Damp sphagnum? Also, how do you determine how long to leave them in the fridge for? Is this data just from a text? Terry ################### From: greg.long@factory.com (Greg Long) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 95 15:50:00 -0500 Subject: Winter CP food and Intro Hi to all members of the CP list, I have been reading the list for a while now and have learned much in a very short time. My name is Greg Long and I live in New York City. I have tried growing venus fly traps on and off for almost my whole life (I am now 32). About three years ago I decided to get serious about it and bought some small healthy looking VFT's and the New York Botonical Garden. I have been very diligent in the care of these plants and have been rewarded by healthy plants that love to eat the flies in my apartment. My children have also been interested and have learned a lot about CP's from our small collection. Recently I received a Nepenthes Mirabilis cutting from Tom in Florida and the cutting has started growing VERY well (see below). I am a biologist and toxicologist by training (B.S. in Biology, Ph.D. in toxicology) and conduct biological research pertaining to heavy metal toxicology in human and animal bone cells. I have no formal training specifically in CP biology or taxonomy, but I am learning. Thank you all for sharing your experience and knowledge on this mailing list. As I gain experience and knowledge I hope to continue to expand my collection of CP's. I would also like to say that although I have limited experience as a CP'er I grow many types of houseplants and my apartment windows look sort of like a jungle. SK>I searched outside, in the cold, for bugs that I could feed my SK>Drosera and Nepenthes. I couln't find one bug anywhere. It has been so warm in New York City this year that I still go out and grab flies, etc. outside. What a winter! SK>My N. Mirabillis cutting from Tom in Florida has survived the SK>transition to the greenhouse and seems to be doing well as SK>it's unfurling it's first true leaf. Pretty neat to watch SK>a miracle like that! Yes, my cutting from Tom is growing very well also. I have two true leafs (one open) and two pitchers (the largest is currently 3 cm tall, open, and growing like crazy). This is my first Nepenthes and it is fascinating to watch the pitcher develop and grow. --- . POW 1.1 0043 . Powerline Offline reader for Windows - New Windows OLR ################### From: Perry Malouf Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 21:04:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Thanks and congratulations Barry wrote:, > >>Kinabalu Park, The Final 1.5 Days > > A great epic, Perry, thanks for taking the time to key all that in. That was > great. I'm looking forward to going myself! A great connection you made with > the botanist at the park! I'm glad that you enjoyed it, Barry. I typed it out chronologically as it spooled out of my memory, and didn't take the time to refine the article or even do much spell checking. It was a little rough, and I'm happy that enough content got through to make for pleasant reading. Apparently there was enough information, because no one has asked me any questions yet. Wow, a self-sufficient article. That's a first for me :) Regards, Perry ################### From: blymn@awadi.com.AU (Brett Lymn) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 16:00:09 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: N. rajah According to Michael Hasemann: > >Uwe Wsetphal (from Germany) grows them in virto. As far as I know >he can supply them again in summer. > oooh ooooh - have you a contact address? I would love my own N. Rajah! Since they are tissue culture I should not have any problems importing them :-) -- Brett Lymn, Computer Systems Administrator, AWA Defence Industries =============================================================================== "Aha! Pronoun problems. It's not `shoot you, shoot you', it's `shoot me, shoot me'. So, go ahead, shoot ME, shoot ME ... You're Despicable" -- Daffy Duck ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 09:28:32 GMT+1 Subject: Re: N. rajah Hello all, I have N. rajah available for DM 60,- + p&p per plant. Anyone interested in my current price list may contact me directly at a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de The new list for 1995 will be ready in 1-2 weeks. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: Joachim Nerz Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 11:17:43 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: white form of H. nutans Dear Christoph, I think, you should be carefully, oftenly, it depend on growing-conditions, if you get all-green Heliamphora; e.g. at Kukenan- and Roraima-Tepui, I have seen some all-green individuals of H. nutans, growing in 'weak' conditions, I mean at places with few light and much humidity. The same plant will change to read, if you put it into full sun and a substrate like peat. H. heterodoxa is usually also in nature more green as the other ones, mostly you find just a red rim and a red neck. Anyway, it would be nice, if they would be realy anthocyan-free forms. Until now, I know just about an all-green 'H. ionasii' from Ilu-Tepui. Thanks for information. All the best Joe N. (sorry, I meant red, not read colour :-}) (The plants will not read anything) ################### From: Joachim Nerz Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 11:25:06 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: CP video show Is there a book of Peter d'Amato? About CP's???? Nice??? On Sat, 31 Dec 1994 R5M@aol.com wrote: > Hey Steve, > Great show, lets see if you can do it without cost overruns. > Becky > P.S. Have you seen the cover of Peter d'Amato's little book? > ################### From: Magnus.Thoren@planteco.lu.se Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 15:25:44 +0100 Subject: RE: Winter CP food (fruit flies) I use wingless fruit flies (Drosophilla) to feed Pinguicula's and it works excellent. I freeze them before putting them on the plants. I don't think they can get away alive but it's easier that way and maybe it's cruel to put live flies om the plants. There is a risk that flying forms while appear and if they get loose they may turn into a pest (which they did in a student place where I was living). I think it's possible to obtain food to the fruitflies and perhaps also wing- or flightless fruitflies from a company could Carolina Biological Supply Company somewhere in the U.S. Magnus Thor`n Plantecology, Department of Ecology, Lund University Ekologihuset, S-223 62 Lund, Sweden Magnus.Thoren@planteco.lu.se "The future so bright I have to wear shades" ################### From: Steven Klitzing Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 07:37:24 -0800 Subject: Re: CP video show Hi Becky: No, I haven't seen the cover of Peter d'Amato's book. Can you describe it? ---Steve ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 11:26:53 -0500 Subject: Re: CP video show Yes, and it's very good for beginners and the cover is a hoot. Send him $2 and ask him for his growth guide. ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 11:34:56 -0500 Subject: Re: CP video show It is a photo by Frank Nemec called "Sarracenia 'Abandon Hope'" something we might be able to develop if we ever come up with the colchesine. ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 11:43:13 -0500 Subject: Re: RE: Winter CP food (fruit... I have the address somewhere. They want $17-18 for us poor peons without institutional affiliation. So, perhaps some of you could finegle 2 and send them to us less fortunate... They also may be a source of colchecine. They also sell recombinant DNA "kits" Manana Becky ################### From: dkpurks%unicorn%telenet@uunet.uu.net (David K. Purks) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 10:53:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Winter CP food All of my active cp (Drosera, Pings, Utrics, Nepenthes) are in a large terrarium. The Drosera and Pings at least are quite happy to be munching on an infestation of fungus gnats. The D.capensis, D.binata, and D.adelae seem to be particularly covered with dead bodies. I'm also misting twice a week with a solution of Miracid and SuperThrive. It must be a good combination because all the mature Drosera are in bloom or producing buds, the Nepenthes are producing pitchers (except for N. x Dominni "intermedia" which is growing new leaves but has not produced a single pitcher since I got it in June), and the Utrics are blooming too. As a side note about the fertilizer spray, D.trinervia seems to be particularly sensitive to it - within a few hours of being sprayed all of the leaves fold up or over as if they had captured a bug and stay that way for 24 - 48 hours. It seems to be happy with it though because it's producing leaves rapidly and looks very healthy. Unfortunately, it's one of the few that is not blooming. (In case you're wondering, the plants are all blooming because they think it's spring / summer - the terrarium is heated by 4 x 40 watt bulbs which are on 16 hours a day (mostly at night)...daytime (their night) temps are about 45 and nighttime (their day) temps are 65-75) - this is in an otherwise unheated garage). Dave Northern Virgina where it hasn't snowed yet but it was 18F last night (Brrrrrrr) ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 95 12:30 EST Subject: RE: winter cp food (cruelty to flies) > I use wingless fruit flies (Drosophilla) to feed > Pinguicula's and it works excellent. I freeze them > before putting them on the plants. I don't think > they can get away alive but it's easier that way > and maybe it's cruel to put live flies om the > plants. Cruelty is the better part of the reason we grow these plants! Come on! :-) The vegetable horrors LIKE to feel the death struggle of tiny insects. It feels good on the trigger hairs and sessile glands. Most stimulating! Michael ################### From: Steven Klitzing Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 10:13:05 -0800 Subject: shift in wife's CP attitude Hi all: Just wanted to drop you an amusing line. When I finished building my greenhouse, I put my handful of CPs inside. I began finding bugs to feed to the Nepenthes and the Drosera. Now, after a few weeks, my wife no longer throws household bugs away. When she finds bugs and smashes them, or finds recently croaked bugs on the windowsills, she immediately lets me know so I can collect them and feed them to the CPs. It saves her from having to patrol and clean for "ooky" bugs in the house. Now she's finding bugs in the bathroom, and leaving the dead critters on the sink shelf on a piece of TP so I can dispose of them. My mother-in-law recently visited and was surprised to see a note covered with dead bugs on a kitchen counter. It read "Do not throw away!" My wife did not have time to write down the reason why, which left her mom a little mystified until I came home. ---Steve ################### From: barry@mips3.as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 14:21:45 -0700 Subject: Horn Tooting and Pings Hey, I just got the new CPN and see that one of my photos made the cover! (*) \ | (*) / Regarding wintering Ping hibernacula.... >>The bottom shelf of my refrigerator is suitably cold. They hide >>down there in plastic bags during their dormant period. When >>they break dormancy I stick them in the greenhouse. They >What do they hide in? Damp sphagnum? >Also, how do you determine how long to leave them in the fridge >for? Is this data just from a text? I grow these _Pings_ in a sand/peat mix sitting in water several cm beneath the soil surface. Periodic checks in the greenhouse reveal when a _Ping_ is ready to hibernate---no new leaves are forming, and by inspecting the rosette center the plant is seen to have developed a dense hibernaculum. When the last leaves begin to yellow I drain the pot of excess water for a few hours and then pop the entire pot into a plastic bag and store it in the refrigerator. About a month later all the leaves have rotted away, leaving the hibernaculum bare. I usually disinter the hibernaculum and separate any gemmae. Then I replace the top few cm of soil with a pure silica sand mix and see that the hibernaculum and gemmae are all about half buried. I think this help reduce mould problems. Then the pot goes back into the bag in the refrigerator. Every month or so I open the bag for an air change and a quick peek. Sooner or later the _Ping_ hibernaculum begins to loosen---the small leaves begin to separate and spread like an overly mature artichoke flower. The plant is ready for a new growing cycle in the greenhouse. I don't use fungicides or sulphur dust or anything like that when I store my plants in the refrigerator. I also use this technique with my hibernaculum forming _Drosera_, although I'm not sure they're as picky. I seem to get just as fine results keeping them in the greenhouse year-round. Barry ################### From: Alexander Salomon Date: Tue, 03 Jan 95 16:21:30 EST Subject: CP source for beginners Well, I have recently been going through this pile of garden catalogs that in- evitably begin to accrue this time of the year if one has ever ordered from Burpee or whichever other company it was who sold my name 10 million times. Anyway, I was looking through one from Gurney's Seed and Nursery Company. On page 29, they offer a few CPs-not cheap but available for those without a local source. They offer VFTs 1 at $4.09, 2-3 @ $3.85/plant and 4 or more for $3.45. They also offer a "carnivorous Kit"-which consists of "a trumpet plant , A VFt and a pitcher plant. From the appearance, they mean, S.flava, S.purp, and Dionea. This kit is offered at 1 @ $8.75, 2-3 @ $8.15 and 4 or more for $7.35. This is not an endorsement of the firm-I have never ordered from them and do not know the source of their plants. If anyone is Inteerested, their address is Gurney's Seed and Nursery Co. 110 Capital Street Yankton, South Dakota 57079 phone number-(605)665-1671 If anyone does decide to offer, I would inquire first as to the source of plant s and would discourage purchase of any field collected plants -alex ################### From: "Houston, James A." Date: Tue, 03 Jan 95 17:37:42 Subject: CP Grow-Box Hi gang, Over Christmas, I visited a friend who is growing peppers and tomatoes in a 2'x4'x2' box that he built himself. He has between 8 - 10 pepper plants with only one tomato plant growing in this box. Why am I writing this? Since he built it himself, I think I can build one myself too, and I know it would work for CPs. The box cost my friend around $200 to build including 8 lights inside producing over 25,000 lumens. I was amazed. He can't find the guy's address who designed the grow box, but as soon as he finds it (shortly) I can send it along to you if you like. The plans cost $20.00 and they are drawn up by an electrical engineering firm. That's all I know about it right now, but I was amazed at how healthy his pepper plants were, and thought some of you might be interested; this is by no means an endorsement of any kind - since you build this box yourself. Email me if you're interested off-line: jh2@scires.com Happy CP growing!! Jim Houston -Atlanta- ################### From: eheick@acs.bu.edu Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 19:28:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: CP Grow-Box Why buy plans for $20 if you can build a grow box yourself for $16? I grow my lowland Nepenthes in one and they love it! Christoph ################### From: eheick@acs.bu.edu Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 19:31:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: white form of H. nutans Joachim, I would like to discuss the case of the white Nutans with you off line. My email address is eheick@acs.bu.edu, respond in German if you like. Christoph ################### From: "Brian Obrien" Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 18:59:51 CST Subject: Re: TAXACOM I'd like subscription instructions to TAXACOM as well. Perhaps this could be posted to the list. Brian On Mon, 2 Jan 1995 11:42:03 -0800, Michael.Chamberland <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> wrote: >I've tried several times to subscribe to TAXACOM, but have failed. >My last attempt sent me an error message indicating they were having >technical difficulties on their end. It's probably time for me to >try again. > >Michael > > -- bobrien@gac.edu Brian A. O'Brien, Department of Chemistry, Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, Minnesota 56082 U.S.A. tel. (507)933-7310 fax (507)933-7041 ################### From: Kay.Klier@uni.edu Date: Tue, 03 Jan 1995 21:49:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: To subscribe to TAXACOM, send a file containing the following single line to listserv@ucbcmsa.berkeley.edu: SUBSCRIBE TAXACOM yourname@internet.address You should get back a message from the listserver quite promptly. TAXACOM has moved around a bit: the Harvard address that shows up on a BOING search is invalid. Kay Klier klier@cobra.uni.edu ################### From: Adolf Ceska Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 20:04:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: TAXACOM How to subscribe to TAXACOM: Send the following message subscribe taxacom Your-first-name Your-last-name to listserv@cmsa.berkeley.edu I would add the command review taxacom just to see who is on the mailing list BTW, if you want to receive BEN (Botanical Electronic News) send me a message "put me on BEN" to aceska@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Happy New Year, Adolf aceska@freenet.victoria.bc.ca ################### From: "HERBERT D. KING" <75672.1174@compuserve.com> Date: 03 Jan 95 23:50:44 EST Subject: excuse me... the best incense 20 sticks per pack $1. minimum purchase 5 packs. rose, opium, black love, nag champa, vanilla, cinnamon, patchouli, sandalwood, blue nile, egyptian musk, coconut, rain. free incense holder with 12 packs. add $3. for shipping. CA residents add 8.25% sales tax. send check or money order to cynthia wiley, p.o. box 91098, los angeles, CA 90009-1098 int'l orders add $6. for shipping ################### From: Brian Jones Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 22:18:53 PST Subject: Re: CP video show > > Yes, and it's very good for beginners and the cover is a hoot. > Send him $2 and ask him for his growth guide. > Did I miss something here (I hate it when that happens)? To whom should I send $2?? Anyway, while my CPs grow in a terrarium, I would like to grow something in the kitchen to eat flying insects. Any suggestions on a suitable species????? -BJ ################### From: Brian Jones Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 22:14:44 PST Subject: Re: CP source for beginners [Note from Alex re: Gurney's plants deleted...] I don't know their source(s), but I DO know that they won't ship CP's to California, among other places... -BJ ################### From: Brian Jones Date: Tue, 3 Jan 95 22:20:53 PST Subject: Re: excuse me... Herbert, Why do you keep trying to sell incense on this list? Can we make him stop? -BJ ################### From: JR Parish Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 01:13:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: excuse me... On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, HERBERT D. KING wrote: > the best incense 20 sticks per pack $1. minimum purchase 5 packs. > rose, opium, black love, nag champa, vanilla, cinnamon, patchouli, > sandalwood, blue nile, egyptian musk, coconut, rain. free incense > holder with 12 packs. add $3. for shipping. CA residents add 8.25% > sales tax. send check or money order to cynthia wiley, p.o. box 91098, > los angeles, CA 90009-1098 int'l orders add $6. for shipping > > > Why don't you get the hint and stop this silly shit. This has nothing to do with CP's. ################### From: JR Parish Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 01:15:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: excuse me... On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, Brian Jones wrote: > Herbert, > Why do you keep trying to sell incense on this list? > Can we make him stop? > -BJ > May I suggest that everyone who is feed up with this incense thing copy and forward the message to postmaster@compuserve.com ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Tue, 03 Jan 1995 22:28:47 -0800 Subject: Re: Thanks and congratulations Barry Meyers-Rice writes: > Rick, now that you are in power, is it true you're going to take all > the plants that are being grown poorly and put them in huge greenhouse > orphanages ? My first act in office will be to organize an international hunger strike on behalf of all the languishing supermarket VFT's. Our demands will include little plastic shields to prevent little kids from teasing the plants, plus regular feeding with live cicadas. We will also insist that several N. Carolina supermarkets be plowed under and converted back into bogs. Our second campaign will involve placing anti-bulldozer land mines at several strategic Sarracenia habitats. :-) :-). On the serious side, thanks for the congratulations! I'm counting on all the ICPS members for guidance and support in trying to shape the future of ICPS in 1995. Please write me with your suggestions. I'm trying to consolidate the ideas that I presented in my campaign statement with feedback from various letters that I've received. Hopefully this will result in some action and an article in one of the next newsletters. -- Rick ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 16:55:01 +0930 Subject: Re Grow boxes Cristoph, >Why buy plans for $20 if you can build a grow box yourself for >$16? I grow my lowland Nepenthes in one and they love it! Care to expand on your grow box i.e what is it made of, how big etc? ################### From: thacker@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 01:40:43 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: excuse me... On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, Brian Jones wrote: > Herbert, > Why do you keep trying to sell incense on this list? > Can we make him stop? Well, I've now bought $30,000 of incense...do you think this is just encouraging him? By the way, does anyone have any suggested cures for this annoying hacking cough I seem to have developed quite recently :-) Don ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:56:59 GMT+1 Subject: Re: TAXACOM Maybe I missed a message but... ...what is TAXACOM??? Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:56:59 GMT+1 Subject: Cuba & Venezuela (help?) X-Mts: smtp +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Ah well, itchy feet time again. I'm off to Cuba and Venezuela in February/March. Hope to cover all Cuba. Intend to prioritise the Andes rather than Lost World when in Venezuela. Can anyone help with information? I know all the Pinguicula species and I've my own copy of Casper's Monograph. If anyone has specific localities for any Pings (localities NOT listed by Casper) or any details on other plants of interest, I'd be very grateful for the information. I'm also interested in any people who might prove helpful in either Cuba or Venzuela, especially plant nurseries in or near Caracas (especially those catering for Bromeliads) (I'm copying the Brom conference on my request too). Thanks for any feedback. I will of course post a visit summary if I succeed in going, finding anything, coming back! The latter is the weak point - I don't want to come back!!! Regards Paul ################### From: Ivo Koudela PGDS-KChF Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 14:26:20 MEZ Subject: Casper monograph Does anybody know about an English translation of the Casper's Monographie der gattung Pinguicula? I've heard it exists anywhere... Ivo PS:Jan, may I ask you where in the Czechoslovakia were you born? It is very interesting! Thanks. ################### From: Kay.Klier@uni.edu Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 07:31:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: >Maybe I missed a message but... >...what is TAXACOM??? >Andreas TAXACOM is a listserv for taxonomists... mostly news and announcements, and also a fair number of questions on herbarium policies, where to find proper wet specimen storage jars, and any of the 80,000 other things we taxonomists often have rattling around in our heads... ;-) I first heard of it several years ago in an issue of Taxon (the IAPT journal). Kay Klier klier@cobra.uni.edu ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Wed, 04 Jan 95 14:03:55 +0000 Subject: Have you info on Cuba/Venezuela? +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Jan You've probably already seen I'm going to Cuba/Venezuela. I hope you don't mind if I ask some info of you, in case you can help. Have you an English translation of the Cuban Ping entries in Casper? I'm only after the descriptions of where the plants grow. Do you happen to know what state the Pings will be in in February/March - growing/, resting?, or what? Have you any good location details for P. elongata? Any Ping info not already in Casper woiuld be great. Any other CP info also of interest for Cuba or Venezuela. Many thanks. Regards Paul ################### From: Adolf Ceska Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 06:12:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Casper monograph On Wed, 4 Jan 1995, Ivo Koudela PGDS-KChF wrote: > Does anybody know about an English translation of the Casper's > Monographie der gattung Pinguicula? I've heard it exists anywhere... Jost Casper may know. Here is his address: Dr. Jost S. Casper Institut fur Spezielle Botanik Friedrich-Schiller-Universitat Philosophenweg 16 O-6900 Jena Deutschland - Germany Best regards, Adolf Ceska (I was born in Jindrichuv Hradec, if you are curious.) ################### From: "Philip F. Wight" Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 05:36:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: excuse me... I've posted direct msgs to him threatening to lodge complaints with CompuServe if it continues. I don't understand the motivation of jerks like this - are supposed to burn the incense for our cps, or feed it to them? :-) Cheers, Phil ---------------------- On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, Brian Jones wrote: > Herbert, > Why do you keep trying to sell incense on this list? > Can we make him stop? > -BJ > ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Wed, 04 Jan 95 14:27:12 +0000 Subject: Re: new pricelist 1995 +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Andreas I sent a reply to your "new" price list last year but got no response. i guess my mail system failed, a normal occurrance! Sorry if you already received my request but, if not, I'll repeat it (if I can remember it) here. Heliamphora 1 of -heterodoxa 30,- 1 of -ionasii (true one!!!) 200,- 1 of -tatei var. tatei (!!!) 190,- If I'm still in time to order these, please tell me what to doi next. And excuse my ignorance but what are the differences between H. nutans (Form from Tramen) and any other H. nutans? Regards Paul ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:48:00 -0500 Subject: Re: RE: winter cp food (cruel... The address for Carolina Biological Supply is 2700 York Road Butlington, N.C. 27215 Write them a note on your institutional stationary. ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:57:05 -0500 Subject: Re: CP source for beginners I've had trouble with Gurney's. See they live in the tundra, and by the time they ship stuff to you, planting season is over. Then again, I'm not real happy buying from a comercial firm when we have availability on line... ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:58:45 -0500 Subject: Re: excuse me... can we unsubscribe this fellow ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:09:25 -0500 Subject: Re: CP video show California Carnivoires 7020 Trenton-Healdsberg Rd. Forestville CA 95436 USA Send $2 ask for the Growth Guide. I found these people very helpful and patient. ################### From: Joachim Nerz Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 18:40:19 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: Have you info on Cuba/Venezuela? Dear Paul, I know, that Jan has good maps and some more detailed information about all the Ping's of Cuba, he will be in again next week, so you can ask him. A botanist of E-Germany has visited the location of P. lignicola, but I have forgot her name; I want to look, if I will find it. In the Andes of Venezuela, Drosera cendeensis would be very interesting; as I know, the only known location of it is 'near Cende'; at the maps, it doesn't look to difficult to reach it. The original material of it 'disappeared'. Maybe I can also find locations of P. elongata in Venezuela, I want to have a look. Do you know the book of Vareschi: Tropenoekologie? It is in German language, I don't know, if there exist an English translation, but you can learn a lot about the vegetation of Venezuela (he lived about 40 years there.) Have a good time there Bye Joe N. On Wed, 4 Jan 1995, Paul Temple wrote: > +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple > | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital > | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms > | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 > +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p > Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com > Loc/MS: UCG > > Jan > > You've probably already seen I'm going to Cuba/Venezuela. I hope you > don't mind if I ask some info of you, in case you can help. > > Have you an English translation of the Cuban Ping entries in Casper? > I'm only after the descriptions of where the plants grow. > > Do you happen to know what state the Pings will be in in February/March > - growing/, resting?, or what? > > Have you any good location details for P. elongata? > > Any Ping info not already in Casper woiuld be great. Any other CP info > also of interest for Cuba or Venezuela. > > Many thanks. > > Regards > > Paul > > ################### From: ksnive@pstbbs.com Date: Wed, 04 Jan 95 00:59:10 -0700 Subject: Not cp. I've just recived my favorit spring seed catalog. It has nothing to do with Cp. but I still want to tell you about it. Oregon Exotics Rare Fruit Nursery 1065 Messinger Rd. Grants Pass Or. 97527 U.S.A. Ph. 503-846-7578 They speicalise in Fruits, Barrys, Veg. ect... from South America, and espicely Asia. They offer HARDY CITRUS with edible fruit! Amoung 100's other things you will not see in any other catalog this year if ever. A must have for botinasts with a culinary intrest. krs ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Wed, 04 Jan 95 18:25:55 +0000 Subject: Re: Hello +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Kei I only just saw your introduction mail. Just wanted to ask if you were a friend of Isao Takei? Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Wed, 04 Jan 95 18:22:03 +0000 Subject: Re: You want pictures?? +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Sorry this is so late but, having just returned from Xmas hols, I couldn't resist rersponding to the initial hornets nest of Marcel Lecoufle's book and it's "*best*" status. I don't necessarily disagree with the comments on pictures. However, CPN did review this book. It was a challenging (I'm being polite) review, full of phlegm, venom even. The summary of the review was to ignore the text of Marcel's book!!! The author of the review (I forget who but it was one of CPN's editor's) also spared no blushes for the technical editor who was blamed for allowing Marcel's errors to be published uncorrected. I am that technical editor. With the traditions of the USA firmly in mind, CPN and the editor in question were damned lucky I didn't sue them for big money (despite disclaimers - "the views expressed aren't necessarily those of CPN" - no good when the views are written by the editor!). The review was totally correct in criticising Marcel's knowledge and text and in criticising the English translation from original French. However, I wrote (and still have a copy of) a three page criticism of the text and translation, which I sent to the publishers. I offered assistance in correcting the errors if given direct access to Marcel. Unfortunately the offer was refused, the book was published with errors intact and my name printed as technical editor without my permission. The lessons - for CPN: be more careful about who you accuse of what or risk getting sued! for me: avoid editing anything by Marcel for you all: buy Marcel's books for the great pictures but be very careful about what text you believe! It feels so much better to get that off my chest. I do so hate being libelled! Regards Paul ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 20:30:35 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Have you info on Cuba/Venezuela? > I know, that Jan has good maps and some more detailed information about > all the Ping's of Cuba, he will be in again next week, so you can ask him. > A botanist of E-Germany has visited the location of P. lignicola, but I > have forgot her name; I think it was H. Dietrich (but I might be completely wrong ;-) It's just a name which I discovered in a corner of my brain...) Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 20:35:11 GMT+1 Subject: Re: new pricelist 1995 > And excuse my ignorance but what are the differences between H. nutans > (Form from Tramen) and any other H. nutans? The pitchers are more slender and less "trumpet-shaped" than typical H. nutans. They are also less ventricose... It's a little difficult for me to find the right words but they just look different ;-) Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: R Britt Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:19:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: excuse me... Actually the incense post appeared all over the Usenet. I saw it a mac games board, for example. So no direct link to CP's. -rdb On Wed, 4 Jan 1995, Philip F. Wight wrote: > I've posted direct msgs to him threatening to lodge complaints with > CompuServe if it continues. I don't understand the motivation of jerks > like this - are supposed to burn the incense for our cps, or feed it to > them? :-) > > Cheers, > Phil > ---------------------- > > > On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, Brian Jones wrote: > > > Herbert, > > Why do you keep trying to sell incense on this list? > > Can we make him stop? > > -BJ > > ################### From: greg.long@factory.com (Greg Long) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 12:01:00 -0500 Subject: CP Grow-Box ->Why buy plans for $20 if you can build a grow box yourself for $16? ->I grow my lowland Nepenthes in one and they love it! ->Christoph What exactly is a grow box and how can I build one for $16? --- . POW 1.1 0043 . Powerline Offline reader for Windows - New Windows OLR ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 08:13:58 +0930 Subject: RE Taxacom > TAXACOM is a listserv for taxonomists... mostly news and >announcements, Is it restricted to only plant taxonomy or do the other kingdoms get a go as well? ################### From: Steven Klitzing Date: Wed, 4 Jan 95 15:44:08 -0800 Subject: Re: CP Grow-Box A grow box is probably like the one they have in the CP greenhouse at UC Berkeley Botanical Gardens. You have a tray on the bottom that collects water so it doesn't rot your wooden benches. Then, it's basically an upside down aquarium. No glass on the bottom. four glass sides, and a glass top. I think making a grow box out of clear plastic from a plastic shop might be easier to build, cut, and work with. You can take the clear plastic parts and weld them together with xylene. And you can make the top plate removable for plant maintenance. Lexan would be a good material, and it would have better insulating qualities than glass...though a little more expensive. Either glass or plastic would work, glass being heavier and subject to breakage. Cutting clear lexan to exact sizes costs about $1 per cut at a plastic shop. The plastic does not need to be really thick. Probably 1/8" thick material would work. Hey, I think this solves my dilemma about finding water catching trays that fit my benches! ---Steve ################### From: Adam Wexler Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 16:00:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: RE Taxacom I tried the address given earlier and I kept getting messages back that said address unknown! Do I just have the wrong address: listserv@u.cbcmsa.berkley.edu ? I really want to subscribe. -ADW ################### From: eheick@acs.bu.edu Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 20:09:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: CP Grow-Box > > A grow box is probably like the one they have in the > CP greenhouse at UC Berkeley Botanical Gardens. > You have a tray on the bottom that collects water so > it doesn't rot your wooden benches. Then, it's basically etc, etc... this is pretty much what I meant, only, mine is not that complicated, or potentially pretty as the one above might be. Mine is 60x60x100cm and made of 1x2inch pieces of lumber. To make it more sturdy I screwed it together with wood screws. As floor I used a piece of plywood that was lying around, lined it with plastic, and covered the enire frame with 2 mill plastic that can be bought in a hardware store. No joke, the entire thing cost $16, although I have to say that the lights were not included in that, nore the looks of it. At some point when I am rich I was planning on replacing it with something more esthetically pleasing. For now though, my lowlanders loveit! One of the CPN issues had a detailed describtion of one, I would have to look up which issue though. Christoph ################### From: Kay.Klier@uni.edu Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 19:21:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Subj: RE Taxacom >> TAXACOM is a listserv for taxonomists... mostly news and >>announcements, >Is it restricted to only plant taxonomy or do the other kingdoms >get a go as well? What???!!! People want to study other-than-plants???? Yes, there are various types of animal taxonomists (or perhaps taxonomists of various types of animals) subscribed, though I've yet to see anyone that I recognize as a taxonomist of prokaryotes responding to the list. As you might expect, there's quite a bit of discussion of software for keying, data retrieval, etc., and a thread on GIS (geographic information systems) a while back (if I'm recalling the right list!) The address is listserv@ucbcmsa.berkeley.edu I may have mistyped it previously, as I'm currently dealing with a cold that I'd like to give back to its previous owner. Kay Klier Biology Dept Univ. Northern Iowa klier@cobra.uni.edu ################### From: peter cole Date: Wed, 04 Jan 1995 01:49:03 GMT Subject: re: incense 20 sticks per pack. > the best incense 20 sticks per pack $1. minimum purchase 5 packs. Presumably these would be for incensivorous plants :) PETER COLE - SWANSEA, WALES ################### From: ATLAS1@JEFLIN.TJU.EDU Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 22:42:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: (re)Introduction Hi all. It's Doug Atlas, back on the group (I had been off since last August). For those who don't know me, here's a brief intro: I have been growing cp for about 6 years. I have had good success with the more "common" species and hybrids, but not much experience with the more exotic ones. My favorite group of cp these days is Nepenthes. Four months ago, I went back to school and (unfortunately) had to give away a lot of my cp; I onlyl kept my Nepenthes, plus a few other "fun" species of CP. But virtually all of my north american cp had to go. :( I would be interested in hearing from any CP growers in the Philadelphia, PA area (my new home away from home). I may have extra Nepenthes for trade/free. The CP I still have are doing well. The N Mixta 'superba' is producing pitchers that are over 20 cm long. Wow. My N eymai finally started to pitcher; it is producing cute little upper pitchers (the cutting I received must have been taken from upper growth). I got good germination on various nepenthes seed from the cpn seedbank. Anyone out there have an extra n ampullaria for trade? I have been looking for one of these for a couple of years, but the only ones I've seen are from overseas and very pricey. Happy new year to all, and good growing! Doug ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 09:08:09 GMT+1 Subject: Re: (re)Introduction > Anyone out there have an extra n ampullaria for trade? I have been > looking for one of these for a couple of years, but the only ones I've > seen are from overseas and very pricey. I have N. ampullaria in vitro and should have the first ones for trade or sale in summer or autumn. The clones I have are from Irian Jaya. I am looking for N. petiolata and other species but would also trade for hybrids with "interesting" parentage. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: Joachim Nerz Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 10:54:49 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: (re)Introduction Hey Doug, nice to see another Nepenthes-freak. If Andreas don't have, maybe I will get some until late summer or autumn, depending on growing situation and success. If you know about Nepenthes or Heli.-seed, I am always interested in it. Joe N. ################### From: Joachim Nerz Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 11:02:23 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: N. sp. Sumatra Hello, does anybody know something about the N. spec. Sumatra, which was availagle at the CPN-seedbank? Maybe somebody knows where it does come from or who has introduced it. Are there still seed available of it for trade? By the way, does anybody know, if N. spathulata has been crossed in the last year or will be crossed? I have heard, that there are several growers in the USA with male and female plants. Bye Joe N. ################### From: "Claus Rodemer" Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 12:23:26 CET-1CST Subject: Re: Hello > Kei > > I only just saw your introduction mail. > > Just wanted to ask if you were a friend of Isao Takei? > > Regards > > Paul Who ?? What ?? Where ?? Sorry.... Claus ################### From: Heiko Rischer Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 12:51:02 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: (re)Introduction > > > Anyone out there have an extra n ampullaria for trade? I have been > looking for one of these for a couple of years, but the only ones I've > seen are from overseas and very pricey. > > I have also N. ampullaria (in vitro/cuttings) . Mine are not pricey :-] but also for trade (hi Andreas and Joe ;-) ). Heiko ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 14:33:16 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: (re)Introduction > > > > Anyone out there have an extra n ampullaria for trade? I have been looking for > > one of these for a couple of years, but the only ones I've seen are from > > overseas and very pricey. > > > I have also N. ampullaria (in vitro/cuttings) . > Mine are not pricey :-] but also for trade (hi Andreas and Joe ;-) ). > > Heiko > Is this going to end up in an internet-shop ? I am feeling a little irritated about these increasing more or less commercial (yes, I have seen your smileys.) offers. (not to talk about this as a financial source for "Victorian time" plant hunting.) (and also not to talk about all that tissue culture stuff originating from dubious ("University supported" ?!) sources. Right, this is none of my business.) ..Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 ################### From: Christopher Waldrop Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 07:46:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Pings I bought three unidentified pings from Peter Pauls Nurseries last summer, two of which are still alive. They have begun doing very strange things, although my limited knowledge of botanical terminology prevents me from describing it in detail. Basically they seem to be forming very small, reddish orbs at the center of their rosettes. Anyone have any idea what this could be? Could they be forming their winter resting buds? I'm also curious to know what species they are, if anyone with more knowledge of pings out there knows what the Peter Pauls plants are. ################### From: HERMANN.WISTUBA@KFB.x400.basf-ag.de Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 14:55:04 +0100 Subject: Re: (re)Introduction An: 5289 X400HOST Alle Benutzer im DISSOS Von: WISTUBA LUFAROHB Dr. Wistuba Datum: 5. Januar 1995 Betreff: Re: (re)Introduction Michael, see your mail from 03.01.95. Regards, Hermann ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 15:26:33 GMT+1 Subject: Re: (re)Introduction Dear Michael, you wrote: > Is this going to end up in an internet-shop ? I am feeling a little > irritated about these increasing more or less commercial (yes, > I have seen your smileys.) offers. > > (not to talk about this as a financial source for "Victorian time" > plant hunting.) a few days ago you wrote: >>Uwe Wsetphal (from Germany) grows them in virto. As far as I know >>he can supply them again in summer. >>..Michael A sudden change of mind??? (;-)) > (and also not to talk about all that tissue culture stuff originating > from dubious If tissue culture is dubious then I'm proud of being able to do this dubious things. Otherwise I do not right understand what a large scale propagation by "high tech" has to do with Victorian-style plant hunting??? Who the hell hunts his in vitro stuff??? I usually go to the basement working all night at my laminar flow which I had to buy from my money (no support!). Usually the plants sit in their flasks and are quite easy to remove without any need to hunt them. I'm looking foreward receiving an explanation! > ("University supported" ?!) sources. Right, this is none > of my business.) None of us is University supported! Please try to find out more exactly what people you offend really do before flaming them in the public! > > ..Michael > If somebody searches for a plant I am able to supply either by _trade_ or sale, shall I ask a friend: "Hey could you write a message, telling that I have these things for trade (or aso sale)" instead of doing this myself. I regard this as childish. As a consequence you'll have to ban all informations on CP sources from this list. I think I am right that one aspect reading such lists for many people is getting infos where to _trade_ _or_ _buy_ CP's (in our case) or other stuff. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: "Houston, James A." Date: Thu, 05 Jan 95 10:11:07 Subject: Re Grow boxes Hello again gang, I must say that first of all, the "grow box" plans are *not* mine, I'm not even positive if it's called a "grow box" either. I'm not making a dime here, honest. Also, with all of the incense nonsense, I'm a bit gun-shy about trying to "sell" anything. I'm just passing along some information because I thought you might be interested. I just saw this box, and I was *so* impressed with it, that I had to tell someone who might be interested. I realize you can build a grow box, or a light box for a lot less money, but I've seen those types of contraptions, and I wasn't impressed. This grow box really impressed me, that's why I had to mention it to you. >Why buy plans for $20 if you can build a grow box yourself for >$16? I grow my lowland Nepenthes in one and they love it! I hear you on that. The major difference with this box I saw was that it gave somewhere between 8 and 10 plants about 1 square foot of intense light. The pots the plants were growing in were not big at all, and contained a good nursery mix of soil as a growing medium. That's all. The pots could be pulled out, and replaced easily at any time, as there were "cutouts" which the pots seated into. With that idea, one could easily spin the plants, but really, there was no need to do that, the peppers were surrounded with intense light from all sides. >Care to expand on your grow box i.e. what is it made of, how big >etc.? Again, this is *not* my grow box; the one I saw was made of simple plywood, 4' high, 4' long, and 2' deep. It was painted white inside, and stained and finished on the outside, and it looked nice. It had two doors which opened, and gave access to the box from the front. When the doors were closed, you couldn't see the plants. Depending on what you decide to construct the doors from (e.g. plastics) you will be able to see the plants inside. The box wasn't very big/obtrusive. I suppose, you could use plastics on all of the outside walls, but again, the one I saw was strictly plywood, and not very heavy, I would venture to say that it weighed around 30 - 40 pounds. My friend told me he had around $200, maybe $250 with the plans, etc. tied up in the project. The amount of bang for your buck by doing it yourself was what impressed me the most. If you can handle a jigsaw, screw driver, and a paint brush, you can build this thing, and it will last a lifetime. Essentially, once you have the plans, you can substitute the building materials, _the interior lights_, etc., will be a fixed cost though, I think around $175.00. From what I can determine, there are smaller plan models available, and obviously, those grow boxes would cost less to build. I haven't seen the plans yet, but they are all $20. Anyone can email me off-line about further info, as soon as I get it, I'll be happy to pass it along to you. Just send me your email address. Happy Growing, Jim Houston jh2@scires.com ################### From: telenet!unicorn!dkpurks@uunet.uu.net (David K. Purks) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 11:12:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Drosera flower spikes Now that I have a variety of Drosera blooming at the same time, I've notice something strange...most of the plants produce spikes which grow vertically from the center of the rosette. D.aliciae is doing something totally different. As the spike grows, it unrolls horizontally along the top most layer of leaves until it reaches the outer edge of the rosette and then it straightens up and grows vertically until it reaches maximum height (about 4 inches for mine). I thought this was accidental when the first spike was produced but I have a second one which has done the exact same thing. Anyone else see this behavior or is my plant doing something unusual because of some environmental condition? Dave ################### From: "Houston, James A." Date: Thu, 05 Jan 95 11:34:24 Subject: Re: You want pictures?? I have to start this message off by simply saying "wow". >Sorry this is so late but, having just returned from Xmas hols, I >couldn't resist rersponding to the initial hornets nest of Marcel >Lecoufle's book and it's "*best*" status. Paul, the book is a good book. I believe I was the one who started the whole discourse (your Subj. line is one I sent) because at that time I was new to the world of CPs. My wife works at the library and was bringing home book after book on the subject. The book by Marcel Lecoufle was my favorite one out of all of the books she brought home - yes, because of the pictures. BUT....you do deserve some credit as well! Please don't feel badly about some criticism. As far as I am concerned, the book in conjunction with the text is *very* good for people who are new to the hobby. I am a novice CP grower, like most people. The majority of people on this list are experts, and most knowledgeable. My only question about the textual content was that Drosera Spatulata was spelled D. Spathulata. No big deal, but I wanted to be correct when I spoke of this plant among professional CP growers, that's all. I find the book most informative otherwise. >I am that technical editor. And I am impressed to find that out too. I have the book in my hands as I type, and sure enough, you *are* the Tech. Ed. My first brush with CP greatness!! >The review was totally correct in criticising Marcel's knowledge and >text and in criticising the English translation from original French. >However, I wrote (and still have a copy of) a three page criticism of >the text and translation, which I sent to the publishers. I offered >assistance in correcting the errors if given direct access to Marcel. >Unfortunately the offer was refused, the book was published with >errors intact and my name printed as technical editor without my >permission. I seriously doubt that people will hold the technical editor responsible for a book. Readers never understand the politics that goes on behind the scenes like that, because we are not privy to that discourse. In closing Paul, I like the book, I bought the book, and I use it as a reference book. The text is not as bad as some people seem to think. Again, I get most of my information from that book first, then I refer to other books or to this list for specifics. I love this list, the people on this list are genuine CP lovers and are very sincere and helpful. Is there any way you can post the 3 page letter to the publisher which should squelch any of the textual inconsistencies? Most of us have the book in question (I think). Jim Houston jh2@scires.com ################### From: "Warrington, Pat" Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 08:07:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: re taxacom Yes! Adam Wexeler- I suscribed successfully several days ago to "listserv@cmsa.berkeley.edu" -Pat Warrington ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 95 12:24 EST Subject: Re Grow boxes I suppose that only the top and front panels of a grow box need be made of transparent material, if it is to be used indoors under lights. If the sides and back are constructed from opaque white-colored material the plants should benefit from light reflected off these surfaces back into the box. In fact, the very photon-frugal might build doors, painted white on the inside, to close over the front panel when the box is not being viewed. (silver mylar has also been advocated for its reflective property). Michael ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 19:57:15 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: (re)Introduction > > > An: 5289 X400HOST Alle Benutzer im DISSOS > > Von: WISTUBA LUFAROHB Dr. Wistuba > > Datum: 5. Januar 1995 > Betreff: Re: (re)Introduction > > Michael, see your mail from 03.01.95. Regards, Hermann what's wrong with that one. I *do not* benefit from any sales Mr. West- phal makes neither from any Allan Lowrie or anybody else makes due to references/source information given in this list. This is in contrast to people (no offense intended!) who try to earn a golden nose by opening "internet shops". I know there is no clear border and I regret to have given my comment on this (particularly be- cause there is no real problem in this list, yet). Please be refered to the "netiquette". Best wishes, ..Michael > > > > -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 20:34:02 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: (re)Introduction Dear Andreas, I am sorry and I hope you accept my excuses if you feel personally of- fended by my last posting. This was not my intent. > Dear Michael, > > you wrote: > > > Is this going to end up in an internet-shop ? I am feeling a little > > irritated about these increasing more or less commercial (yes, > > I have seen your smileys.) offers. > > > > (not to talk about this as a financial source for "Victorian time" > > plant hunting.) > > a few days ago you wrote: > > >>Uwe Wsetphal (from Germany) grows them in virto. As far as I know > >>he can supply them again in summer. > > >>..Michael > > A sudden change of mind??? (;-)) In contrast to you I do not benefit nor I make any sales because of this list. It is abuse of the net for commercial purposes I do not agree with. Please be refered to the netiquette. Meanwhile I also regret to have started this discussion as there is no real problem here (yet). > > > (and also not to talk about all that tissue culture stuff originating > > from dubious > > If tissue culture is dubious then I'm proud of being able to do this > dubious things. Otherwise I do not right understand what a large > scale propagation by "high tech" has to do with Victorian-style plant > hunting??? Who the hell hunts his in vitro stuff??? I usually go to > the basement working all night at my laminar flow which I had to buy > from my money (no support!). Usually the plants sit in their flasks > and are quite easy to remove without any need to hunt them. > I'm looking foreward receiving an explanation! So if it is so easy to propagate them why do not you sell them hobbyists prices. I mean if I see astronomical high prices for whatsoever species I get the idea the price covers more than just the costs of propogation, but also costs for travelling and reasonable profit margins. This appears to be commercial business based on demand and offer. Please be refered to the netiquette. > > > ("University supported" ?!) sources. Right, this is none > > of my business.) > > None of us is University supported! Note the question mark. I am sorry if you got me wrong on this. Thanks, for clarification. > Please try to find out more exactly what people you offend really do > before flaming them in the public! My deepest excuses again. Again, I regret to have started this discussion and I got my lessons from it. > > > > > ..Michael > > > > If somebody searches for a plant I am able to supply either by > _trade_ or sale, shall I ask a friend: > "Hey could you write a message, telling that I have these things for > trade (or aso sale)" instead of doing this myself. > I regard this as childish. Maybe, this is a borderline case. > As a consequence you'll have to ban all informations on CP sources > from this list. I think I am right that one aspect reading such lists > for many people is getting infos where to _trade_ _or_ _buy_ CP's (in > our case) or other stuff. Read the netiquette! > > > All the best > > > Andreas Yepp, best wishes and greetings ..Michael > Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany > Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de > Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 > -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: Kyle Williams Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 10:37:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tissue Culture of Drosera I was wondering if some of you out there could give me some advice on tissue culture of Drosera (D. capensis and D. binata specifically)? I am an undergraduate student taking a class on tissue culture and my professor has given us a project where we choose a plant (such as a house plant) to reproduce through this method. One piece of information I need right away is what culturing media is appropriate so that I can get it ready ASAP (my teacher gave us two days to find this out!). I have not been able to find any sources on tissue culturing Drosera, so any information you have or you could direct me to would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Kyle Williams Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, Ca. "Life's a journey not a destination, and I just can't tell just what tomorrow brings" ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 20:48:19 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: Re Grow boxes > > I suppose that only the top and front panels of a grow box need be > made of transparent material, if it is to be used indoors under lights. > If the sides and back are constructed from opaque white-colored material > the plants should benefit from light reflected off these surfaces back > into the box. In fact, the very photon-frugal might build doors, painted > white on the inside, to close over the front panel when the box is not being > viewed. (silver mylar has also been advocated for its reflective property). Right, if you cover the front panel (panes) with something insulating such as styrofoam you may reduce condense water. Ergo: When you show the plants to your friends they (the plants) present themselves behind clean/dry glass panes. > ..Michael > Michael > -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 12:35:02 -0800 Subject: Tissue Culture of Drosera Dear Kyle, > I was wondering if some of you out there could give me some advice on > tissue culture of Drosera (D. capensis and D. binata specifically)? > I am an undergraduate student taking a class on tissue culture and my > professor has given us a project where we choose a plant (such as a > house plant) to reproduce through this method. One piece of > information I need right away is what culturing media is appropriate > so that I can get it ready ASAP (my teacher gave us two days to find > this out!). I have not been able to find any sources on tissue > culturing Drosera, so any information you have or you could direct me > to would be greatly appreciated. It has been some time since we've discussed TC formulas. I'm also just a beginner, but here is a list summarizing what I know (with great appreciation to Jan Schlauer, Andreas Wistuba, and Tom Hillson for their input!) If anyone else can add to this list, please do! --------------------------------------------------------- Summary of CP Tissue Culture Formulas and References by Family and Genus: Sarraceniaceae {DUMORT.} Darlingtonia {TORR.} Heliamphora {BENTH.} Sarracenia {L.} - 2/3 Knudsen C(*) with BAP, ABA for mult and root - 1/6 MS, is second choice Byblidaceae {DOMIN} Byblis {SALISB.} - Sigmas modified MS (1/2 x macro-, 1 x micro-)(M0153) + BAP, IBA sometimes vitrification trouble with B.gigantea - Bunn 1985. Australian Horticulture. 83(5):103 Cephalotaceae {DUMORT.} Cephalotus {LABILL.} - Sigmas modified MS (1/2 x macro-, 1 x micro-)(M0153)+BAP, IBA - In vitro propagation of Cephalotus follicularis (Australian Pitcher Plant). HortScience 14, 521-513 Droseraceae {R.A.SALISB.} Aldrovanda {L.} Dionaea {SOLAND. ex ELLIS} - Hutchinson 1984. Scienta Horticulturae 22:189-194. - Beebe 1980. Bot. Gaz.141(4):396-400. - Parliman et al. 1982. J.Amer.Soc.Hort.Sci. 107(2):305-310. - Parliman et al. 1982. J.Amer.Soc.Hort.Sci. 107(2):310-316. Drosera {L.} - 2/3 Knudsen C (*) - Janssens 1986. Med.Fac.Landbouww.Rijksuniv.Gent. 51(1):61-66. - Anthony, J. (1992). In vitro propagation of Drosera spp. HortScience 27, 850. Drosophyllum {(L.) LINK} Nepenthaceae {DUMORT.} Nepenthes {L.} - 2/3 Knudsen C(*)with 0.2-2mg/L BAP for mult. Rooting horm. not neces. - Anderson's may be used also (N. ephippiata likes it). - Lowland only: (DeKanel) .5 MS, 20g/L Sucrose, 6g/L agar. w/ 0.1-0.2 BAP multiplying w/ 2mg/L IBA rooting Dioncophyllaceae {(ENGL. & GILG) AIRY-SHAW} Dioncophyllum {BAILL.} Habropetalum {AIRY SHAW} Triphyophyllum {AIRY SHAW} Lentibulariaceae {L.RICH.} - Bill Carroll's media (ICPN v11 n4 12/82 pp. 93-96) - 1:5 MS Genlisea {ST.HIL.} - 1/5 MS for G.pygmaea Pinguicula {L.} - Adams et al. 1979. HortScience 14(6):701-702. Utricularia {L.} -Pringsheim & Pringsheim esp. for aquatics Amer.J.Bot.49:898-901 (1962) -Carrols's ONLY for large-lvd. sp: U.alpina, longifolia, calycifida *= You may add 37,26mg/l Na2EDTA and 27,8 mg/l FeSO4 x 7H2O. I always add the MS-vitamins to the Knudsen C medium. General References: 1. Achieving the sterile state for home tissue culture, Part I, Brian Johnson, CPS Journal 14, 18-19. 2. Achieving the sterile state for home tissue culture, Part II, Brian Johnson, CPS Journal 16, 9-10. 3. Tissue culture of carnivorous plants at Oxford. Steve Woodward, et al. CPS Journal 15, 16-19. 4. Tissue culture of carnivorous plants. Gareth Davies et al. CPS Journal 12, 17-20. 5. In Vitro propagation of the Butterwort Pinguicula moranensis, Richard Adams et al. HortScience 14(6), 701-702. 6. Tisserat et al. (1992). Microwave sterilization of plant tissue culture media. HortScience 27, 358-361. 7. Plants from Test Tubes - an introduction to micropropagation, Lydiane Kyte, 1987 Timber Press (Oregon), ISBN 0-88192-040-1 -- Rick Walker ################### From: Ron Gagliardo <74002.1371@compuserve.com> Date: 05 Jan 95 20:10:28 EST Subject: Re: In vitro Nepenthes Happy New Year! I saw the recent discussion on tissue culture sources, etc. of Nepenthes and thought I'd share a few thoughts on the subject. I would urge anyone soliciting plant material from any source, especially tissue culture sources, to request data from their respective sources. It is my understanding that many of the cultures of "rare" species may have originated from wild collected seed. I realize that not all in vitro cultures originated this way, some may have been started with seed produced in cultivation (I have started some with seed produced in the greenhouse, as have others), but has anyone actually flowered N. rajah male and female in cultivation??? Unless the collectors were present during the pollination of the particular pods they collected or know absolutely that there were not other possible parent species within pollinating range (I confess to not knowing what such a range is) the only way to discern the true identity would be to grow the plants out to an identifiable size. Please understand, I am NOT attempting to discredit anyone or their motives, as I think they are generally good and I applaud your efforts, but I think that some of the folks who may not be so familiar with the process need to know all the facts. I am not accusing anyone of distributing plants that are not correclty identified, but I would be very cautious of breaking open your piggy bank for Nepenthes species A, that might turn out to be Nepenthes species A x species B. I have tried to retrieve data for tissue cultured plants received and was told it was unavailable. Don't just request the data, DEMAND it! There has been a big influx of seeds and plants collected in SE asia in recent times and it seems like folks might be retracing the steps of others because there is no circulation of data. This is not in the best interest of the plants, nor of the collectors. I don't know of a botanical "freedom of information act," but it seems like we're past due for some coordination and cooperation in our efforts to perserve these plants. Again, this is not directed at anyone in particular, but a plea for growers to know your source and maintain the data along with the plant. In my opinion, the seller should be required to supply the following data with their plants: Collection location or cultivation source collection dates who collected it storage if applicable, how long in vitro how long out of vitro (important for your success in growing a new arrival) If wild collected, possible male parent Ask your tissue culture source if they have grown plants on to near maturity or at least to a size that indicates a true identity. As for the high prices, that's pretty much a matter up to the seller and buyer. Having been in the tissue culture business for a number of years (totally out of it now), I can say that large scale labs can produce an established plant from tissue culture for $0.25 to $0.75 on average (that's for foliage plants like spathiphyllum, anthurium, syngonium, ferns, etc.), BUT that is when they gear up to do thousands of each variety. (At Hungry Plants, we produced a couple hundred thousand Dionaea in 1992 and 1993 at prices in that range, but with the exception of a few, most Nepenthes do not grow in vitro as quickly as Dionaea, making this an unfair comparison.) The cost per plant naturally drops as production is increased and becomes more economical. The current high market prices for tissue cultured Nepenthes are needed partly to fund direct operating expenses, but I imagine that a good part goes to cover past and future seed hunts. I better end with some more positive news, that being that tissue cultured Nepenthes (and other genera, carnivores and non-carnivores alike) seem to grow more vigorously possibly because they are more disease and stress resistant than seed grown plants. This might be the factor breaks down some of the barriers to their cultivation in our collections and that's a great thing to look forward to! Good Growing and Happy Hunting! Ron Gagliardo ################### From: Peter Cole Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 18:24:50 GMT Subject: The Private Life of Plants List followers in the UK might like to know ( if you don't already, ) that BBC1 are screening 'The Secret Life of Plants' starting Wednesday. David Attenborough is presenting it, and it will be showing ( among other things, ) a lot of time lapse photography. I don't know how much carnivory will be represented, but evidently some - there is a close-up of a Drosera leaf ( looks like Rotundifolia to me, ) in the feature on page 5 of this week's TV Times. The inevitable accompanying book is graced with a rather fetching shot of a frog on a Nepenthes pitcher ( tall and green, but I'm not au fait enough with Neps to hazard a guess. ) Enjoy, Peter Peter Cole | carnivor@bunyip.demon.co.uk | RIP - Drosera Binata Swansea, WALES | new mailbox, same account. | eaten by the cat 3/1/95 | Old mailboxes still active. | ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 18:50:55 -0800 Subject: BIOLOGICAL CONSERVATION NEWSLETTER Gordon's original message bounced due to some bad mail headers that were included in the message. I'm forwarding back to the group now. -- Rick ------- Forwarded Message Although cp were not prominently mentioned it' easy to see that some of what occured here could effect some of us . hope this info is useful. -- GORDON C. SNELLING To: Multiple recipients of list x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x BIOLOGICAL CONSERVATION NEWSLETTER x x December 1994 x x x x published by x x x x Dept. Botany, Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution x x [Editor: Jane Villa-Lobos (mnhbo019@sivm.si.edu)] x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x electronically published on x x x x CONSLINK x x a service of the x x Conservation & Research Center x x Smithsonian Institution x x Front Royal, VA 22630, USA x x [Editor: Michael Stuewe (nzpem001@sivm.si.edu)] x x ++++++ x x This newsletter is distributed free-of-charge on CONSLINK. x x Please feel free to forward it to anyone interested, x x as long as you do not charge for that service and you fully x x acknowledge the Editor and CONSLINK as sources. x x Should you want to distribute this newsletter and intend to x x charge your subscribers in any way, please contact both, x x the Editor of the newsletter and CONSLINK before you do so. x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x BIOLOGICAL CONSERVATION NEWSLETTER No. 139 December 1994 Smithsonian Institution Department of Botany, National Museum of Natural History Editor: Jane Villa-Lobos ________________________________________________________________ CITES COP9 MAIN RESULTS FOR PLANTS By Bruce MacBryde The 9th meeting of the Conference of the Parties (COP9) to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) was held during 7-18 November 1994 in Fort Lauderdale, Florida (USA). Background on the treaty and plants is available in proceedings of the biennial COP meetings (1976-1994), and reports or minutes of the annual meetings of the CITES Plants Committee (1988-1994) and CITES Plant Working Group (1984-1987). Among the resolutions decided upon were: (1) replacement of the 1976 criteria and 1979 proposal format for documenting inclusion of species (fauna and flora) in CITES Appendices I and II with detailed clear and more scientifically objective criteria and the corresponding format for proposals; (2) the establishment of guidelines for inclusion of species in Appendix III; (3) consolidation (with some updating) of all the CITES resolutions; and (4) adoption of detailed criteria to begin international registration of those exporting nurseries that qualify in the artificial propagation of taxa in Appendix I. Six countries (Thailand, India, Madagascar, Kenya, Switzerland and Mexico) proposed successful amendments to the CITES appendices for plants, to list 4 species, uplist 20 species, downlist 8 species, and delist 2 species. Moreover by withdrawal of proposals, the cactus Astrophytum asterias stayed in Appendix I, and Camellia chrysantha stayed in Appendix II. The 24 additions to Appendices I and II enter into force on 16 February 1995. As sought respectively by Madagascar (with Switzerland) and by Thailand, export-import controls were strengthened and shared by uplisting to Appendix I 19 succulent Malagasy species: Pachypodium ambongense, Euphorbia cremersii and 17 rare Aloe spp. (mostly dwarf aloes), and the mainly Thailand orchid Dendrobium cruentum. Artificial propagation of some of these taxa is extensive, and cooperative efforts will be made by several countries (including USA) to facilitate propagation and/or the availability of the propagated specimens. Eight taxa were downlisted to Appendix II: five succulents - Euphorbia primulifolia, Pachypodium brevicaule but with no adult wild plants to be exported before COP10 in 1997, P. namaquanum, Leuchtenbergia principis and Mammillaria plumosa, and three orchids - Didiciea cunninghamii, Cattleya skinneri and Lycaste skinneri var. alba. Two species were delisted from Appendix II: the ornamental aroid Alocasia sanderiana, and the succulent Aloe vera - with which there are additional problems, such as the continued listing of A. vera var. chinensis (syn. A. indica), that were referred to the CITES Plants Committee (CPC). Proposals were rejected that would have made use of Appendix I controls by listing the New Zealand endemic Dactylanthus taylorii to stop the international commerce in its wood- roses, and by uplisting from Appendix II the Asian orchids Cypripedium cordigerum, C. elegans, C. himalaicum and C. tibeticum. Asian plants mostly withdrawn (one species rejected) from proposed listing in Appendix II were: Berberis aristata, Gentiana kurroo, Colchicum luteum, Rheum australe, Aconitum deinorrhizum, A. ferox, A. heterophyllum, Coptis teeta, Picrorhiza kurrooa and Nardostachys grandiflora. These 10 species will be evaluated by the CPC through its newly endorsed project on medicinal plants, in cooperation with the new IUCN SSC Medicinal Plants Specialist Group. One African and three Asian tree species were included in Appendix II, which are used for medicinal or other chemical purposes and as well for their wood: Prunus africana, Pterocarpus santalinus, Taxus wallichiana and Aquilaria malaccensis (syn. A. agallocha). Amendment of the redsanders (Pterocarpus) proposal excluded finished musical instruments, formulations and chemical derivatives; amendment of the Himalayan yew (Taxus) proposal excluded final medicines (e.g., taxol). The Latin American Swietenia macrophylla (bigleaf mahogany) and its natural hybrids with S. humilis (amended to regulate only the logs, sawn wood, veneer and plywood sheets) received 50 votes in favor and 33 votes against inclusion in Appendix II, which was 6 votes short of the two-thirds majority needed. Four proposals that had sought to include other tropical tree species in Appendix II to regulate their timber were withdrawn because of political or also technical considerations: in Africa - Dalbergia melanoxylon, Entandrophragma (ca. 11 spp.) and Khaya (ca. 6 spp.), and in Asia - Diospyros mun. A Timber Species Working Group was established under the CPC to improve implementation of CITES for such species. Additionally, the International Tropical Timber Organization (ITTO) at its 8-16 November 1994 meeting (in Yokohama, Japan) decided to encourage liaison between ITTO and CITES and to invite CITES to make a presentation at its May 1995 meeting in Accra, Ghana. The Parties doubled representation in the CITES Plants Committee for the three large developing regions, and selected nine regional members (as well as some alternates). The next CPC meeting is planned for May or June 1995 in the Canary Islands, hosted by Spain. The CITES Guide to Plants in Trade was published in 1994 and available for the Parties at COP9. The CPC will continue to support studies of significant trade, and work on an orchids checklist and the 2nd edition of the cacti checklist. COP10 is planned for the first half of 1997 in Zimbabwe. To obtain COP9 information, see for example the U.S. Federal Register notices published on 4 & 8 November 1994 and/or contact: U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Office of Scientific Authority, 725 Arlington Square Bldg., Washington, DC 20240; Tel.: (703) 358-1708; Fax: (703) 358-2276. Permit questions should go to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Office of Management Authority's Permits Branch, 432 Arlington Square Bldg., Washington, DC 20240; Tel.: (800) 358-2104; Fax: (703) 358-2281. ------- End of Forwarded Message ################### From: and_tax@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 05 Jan 1995 22:44:00 +0200 Subject: Re: Drosera flower spikes >...which grow vertically from the center of > the rosette. D.aliciae is doing something > totally different. As the spike grows, it > unrolls horizontally along the top most layer > of leaves until it reaches the outer edge > of the rosette and then it straightens up > and grows vertically until it reaches maximum > height (about 4 inches for mine). That s the way they do ;-) > I > thought this was accidental when the first > spike was produced but I have a second one > which has done the exact same thing. It s definitely the usual behaviour of D. aliciae and others. Nothing to worry about. Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: and_tax@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 05 Jan 1995 22:37:00 +0200 Subject: Re: Tissue Culture of Drosera > I was wondering if some of you out there could > give me some advice on tissue culture of > Drosera (D. capensis and D. binata > specifically)? I am an undergraduate student > taking a class on tissue culture and my > professor has given us a project where we > choose a plant (such as a house plant) to > reproduce through this method. Droseras are not very difficult to grow and propagate but tricky to getting them into culture via the vegetative parts as they re quite soft and delicate. Try to grow them from _seeds_ which _are_ _easy_ _to_ _sterilize_ and easy to germinate in vitro. > One piece of > information I need right away is what culturing > media is appropriate so that I can get it ready > ASAP (my teacher gave us two days !!! %-\ > to find this > out!). Try 2/3 strength of Knudsen C without hormones for germination. For propagation you have to try what Cytokinine gives you best results. Sorry, but I ve never grown D. capensis or D. binata in vitro and optimizing propagation rates is always trial and error. > I have not been able to find any > sources on tissue culturing Drosera, so any > information you have or you could direct me to > would be greatly appreciated. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: Brian Jones Date: Thu, 5 Jan 95 22:10:06 PST Subject: "Net Shopping" Hey, I LIKE seeing these posts that X is available. If there is a monetary fee attached, well, its my choice if I want to pay. Anyway, it sure beats getting 90 messages saying "Please email me if you have any plants for sale" each week! -BJ ################### From: Martin.Zevenbergen@ALGEM.PT.WAU.NL Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 11:46:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: introduction and colchicine Hello everybody, I didn't post anything on the list yet, so I will introduce myself first: My name is Martin Zevenbergen from The Netherlands, I'm growing cp's for almost 10 years with some interruptions. On the moment I'm not very active except some cp's on the windowsill at my work. (Drosera capensis, hamiltonii, dielsiana, intermedia, spathulata and Utricularia alpina) I work at the department of Plant taxonomy from the Agricultural University in Wageningen as laboratory assistant. Some days ago somebody (I don't remember who) was talking about colchicine, presumably to make tetraploids out of (normal) diploids. Well, if you want to buy this stuff, you can also order it at any big chemical company like Sigma or Merck. They have affiliates in many countries all over the world. If you want to have an adress, you can ask me. When you are going to use it, I have to give you a warning because it's really very poisonous, and you need to take some precautions like gloves, (dust mask), labcoat. Good luck, Martin Zevenbergen ################### From: Ivo Koudela PGDS-KChF Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 13:17:46 MEZ Subject: a Studnicka's book Some times ago I posted a message where I offered to send anyone a book"Masozrave rostliny" (Carnivorous Plants) by M.Studnicka. Reently I visited a local shop which had sold it and found out this book is still available. So if you are interested in it, I'll be able to send you this book for the price 1 copy...$6, 2 ...$10, 3...$15, 4... $20, 5...$23. (postage included!) For the description of the book, look into the file 'cpbooks' in the server (e.g. send a message 'get CP cpbooks' to listserv@opus. hpl.hp.com) Ivo PS:Adolf, thanks for the address of Mr.Casper. I'll try to ask him about an English version of his monograph. ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 11:23:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Re Grow boxes Good lord boys, you talking about a cold frame? ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 11:43:41 -0500 Subject: Re: BIOLOGICAL CONSERVATION N... Will we be getting this newsletter on this line? Or do we subscribe? Becky ################### From: Nancy Dagley Fraley Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 11:59:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: intro Greetings, I am a new subscriber to this listserv and believe it is policy to introduce oneself. I am a field botanist and presently work with a regional heritage program monitoring federally and state listed plants for a seven state area. I do not own any cp but am very interested in getting started on a small scale hence, I am subscribing. I read on this serv of another listserv relating to taxonomy--could someone repeat the address and the proper name of the serv. I tried subscribing to listserv@cmsa.berkeley.edu with 'subscribe taxcom' and another time 'subscribe taxonomy'--- 'No such listserv' was the reply. Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am a novice at this business. ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 06 Jan 1995 12:15:00 +0200 Subject: Re: In vitro Nepenthes Dear Ron, you expressed some ideas which I share but many others I do not. You wrote: > flowered N. rajah male and female in > cultivation??? Unless the collectors were > present during the pollination... Experience tells me that more than 90% of the tissue cultured Nepenthes that go round are true and I can tell this not only for the plants friends of mine or myself give away. Problems with the accuracy of labelling usually start when pure horticultural business is the sole cause for sale (=_real_ large scale propagation for garden centers etc.). Fortunately Nepenthes are not that popular so that smaller labs like mine (:-)) have a chance to exist solely for the "hobbyist market". If you look around _who_ is propagating Nepenthes in vitro you see that most of the people are really in the subject and know very very well what they grow. I would tell the same for myself and this is by no means meant in an arrogant way. Unfortunately it s a different story of accurancy of labelling with plants which are grown in botanical gardens or other collections since decades, unfortunately often by people who have no real botanical interest but just need plants for display. In Europe many of such collections had to survive two wars not to mention generations of gardeners with very inhomogeneous interest for special groups of plants. It s simply a matter of likehood that with the time the chance for accidental mislabeling rises. Cuttings of such, mostly victorian-time hybrids or _rarely_ also species are often given away for free to hobby growers who are often not experienced enough to judge if a plant (often an adult one ;-)) is labelled correctly. I further feel and that also is not meant arrogant (but maybe a little proud) that relatively few people to which I d count myself have introduced many species to the collections simply as a consequence of tissue culture techniques. Others are now available at prices which impressively dropped making e.g. N. rajah a plant everybody can grow _without_ _paying_ _huge_ _sums_ _or_ _being_ _in_ _danger_ _of_ _buying_ _wild_ _collected_ _plants_. These techniques made it possible to propagate species which could not otherwise be propagated at all. And - furthermore the accurancy of labelling has greatly improved because almost all plants sold really are what the label says. > Don't just request the data, DEMAND it!... Most suppliers (including myself) sell their plants not just as e.g. Nepenthes tentaculata but as Nepenthes tentaculata (Gunung Rajah) in all cases where it is still possible to trace back the origin of the mother plant growing in a botanic collection or the origin of the seeds. Unfortunately this is not always possible and in many cases exactly the clones which are grown in botanical gardens for long periods of time are the problem-childs where there is a chance near zero to trace back the origin. > In my opinion, the seller should be required to > supply the following data with their plants: > > Collection location I fully agree with you in this point as long as it is possible (see above). > or cultivation source ? > collection dates Why? What s important is the location. > if applicable, how long in vitro Why? > how long out of vitro (important for your > success in growing a new arrival) Of cause all plants have to be established prior to sale. However as you should know this period varies greatly from species to species... Only to give the info of a date does not mean that the plant is established. In fact it means nothing for the grower who is not really into tissue culture. What counts in the end is only the state of the plant. No matter how long the establishing period took. > If wild > collected, possible male parent Come on, be realistic (;-)), who would like to camp near a location to wait the three months from pollination to harvest his hand-pollinated seeds - sorry, I could not resist......;-) What really is important is the fact that the supplier guarantees for the labelling and that the plants are well established. > Ask your tissue culture source if they have > grown plants on to near maturity or at least to > a size that indicates a true identity. I feel that every person including the gardener makes mistakes. That s simply human. What is important is that suppliers stand for what they sell and return the money or change the plants in case a mislabelling has occured. I know nobody who never gave away a wrong labelled plant simply by mistake... ... and I also know nobody who sells plants knowing that they re wrong labelled. Most of the Nepenthes you and others grow would not be that widespread if the suppliers had always grown a sample specimen to full maturity. For N. villosa or similar species I d estimate periods of around 10 years to grow them to maturity! These plants would not have a chance to enter collections if there would be such a lag. And - _what_ _makes_ _you_ _so_ _sure_ _that_ _parents_ _which_ _look_ _true_ _really_ _are_ _true_. According to Mendel s rules this is not necessarily _true_. The phenotype of a livig being does in no diploid case tell everything about the genotype. You would need to do anther-culture to have all genes relevant for the phenotype really expressed in the phenotype and still - what s with all the genes which do not express theirself in a clearly visible phenotype. It s (in the strict sense) an illusion to speak of true or untrue species at all when referring to the danger of hybridization. You find populations of Nepenthes where nobody could guarantee that there are _"true"_ individuals at all. Many plant species are of hybridogenic origin, also including Nepenthes "species". What is a species? (;-)) But to be serious again: There are some populations (mainly disturbed ones!) which show extremely high degrees of hybridization (e.g. Gunung Ulu Kali and it s three sp. N. sanguinea, macfarlanei and gracillima) but in many other populations it s difficult to find adult hybrid plants at all (...showing appearent hybrid- phenotype ;-)). Well, if you look for seedlings you might be _lucky_ e.g. to find a single N. lowii x tentaculata hybrid but such hybrids which span that much of a distance within the genus usually are poor growers and rare occurencies. Mostly lowland populations with several "weedy" sp. like N. mirabilis, alata, rafflesiana...which are closer related are in danger of "hybrid- contamination" and if seeds were collected from a population where many hybrid plants were found I completely agree with you that one should be careful. Furthermore such hybrids often benefit from heterosis which makes them even more weedy than the parents. In contrast I d regard seeds from most highland populations as quite safe. And - If somebody "accidently" gets a N. lowii x tentaculata hybrid originating from the single grain of seed - oh, what a luck!!! Such hybrids are so much rarer than the species in the wild...and most suppliers -I m sure- would love to change this plant for the sp... > BUT that is when they gear up to do > thousands of each variety... In case of let s say N. villosa it took me almost 4 years of screening to develop a propagation-system. Now I have doubling times of maybe 6-8 months. If I would count the time I ve invested in many of the slow growing highland species I could not sell them at all because I would have to ask _really_ astronomical sums. But luckily for most of the suppliers the main reason to grow in-vitro stuff is simply passion and love to the plants. Compare the prices of rarer orchids which in fact can be very expensive with prices for rare Nepenthes and you ll see that Nepenthes are not at all overpriced. The opposite is true: Since there are quite a few people who try to sell a few of their in vitro offsprings Nepenthes prices have dropped rapidly. Think of a former really commercial source for Nepenthes which once sent plants to all over the world from Brunei. The plants were all taken from the wild and sold as soon as possible after collecting. Yes I mean R. Cantleys plants... . Such a business against all CITES-laws by people who would grab the last plant of a nerly extinct sp. from the wild in order to get the best price simply cannot exist anymore thanks to tissue culture techniques. Joachim, Heiko and I ve seen several populations of Nepenthes where we would feel that tissue culture is the only chance to save at least an image of the plant which will be extinct in 5 or ten years. Everybody who travelled in Asia and left bigger cities to see the forest must be shocked by the rapid destruction of rainforest by logging, burning and a fatal climatic shift which very likely is caused by the first two facts. Extreme drought-periods cause big fires which destroy whole regions and endemic species in this regions. Only to re-estimate...: N. campanulata is extinct! -because the whole region where this highly endemic species was growing is dead due to huge fires. N. clipeata is almost extinct! -because large parts of G. Kelam are burnt. It s just a matter of time...:-( As the frequent fires are a cause of a shift in the rain-dry season periods more to a drier year I see little chance for many of the endemic species to survive the next 10 or 20 years. As we are currently destroying our planet maybe we should at least try to keep such images for coming generations in order to show what once existed... ...seed of the species mentioned above should have been brought before it was too late...:-( > to fund direct operating expenses, but I > imagine that a good part goes to cover past and > future seed hunts. I m wondering why you discuss your _imaginations_ _about_ _people_ _you_ _do_ _not_ _really_ _know_ in the public... I in contrast _thought_ that you _exactly_ _know_ prices for laminar-flow- hoods, autoclaves, balances, ... and so on but maybe I m wrong ;-]. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 06 Jan 1995 12:27:00 +0200 Subject: Re: (re)Introduction Dear Michael, you wrote: > Please be refered to the netiquette. Meanwhile > I also regret to have started this discussion > as there is no real problem here (yet). Some time ago in a silly moment I posted my list here - and had to learn that this was very bad behaviour. I learned from this and promised myself not to do it again. Sorry, if having breached the rules of the netiquette again when having offered plants after they were looked for. I did not regard this as "illegal" but will not do so again if this offends your or other s feelings regarding good manners on the net. > So if it is so easy to propagate them why do > not you sell them hobbyists prices. I mean if I > see astronomical high prices for whatsoever > species... Please see my other today s posting. Peace Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Fri, 06 Jan 95 12:10 EST Subject: RE: grow box > Good lord boys, you talking about a cold frame? More like a Wardian Case. Michael ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 19:55:51 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: (re)Introduction > > Dear Michael, > > you wrote: > > Peace Peace! ..Michael > > > Andreas > Andreas Wistuba > Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany > Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 > e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de > a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de > ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## > -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 13:07:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Netiquette Hi Folks, Similar topics have come up on the orchid list from time to time, involving plants for sale or trade, suppliers, etc. My feeling was that a brief, public mention that "I have this plant for sale or trade, please contact me directly", does not represent a breach of "netiquette". I purchased some very nice plants from a person who was down-sizing their collection in this manner. One thing that doesn't get mentioned nearly enough is that this list and associated databases exist in their present form due to the efforts of Rick Walker with the benevolence of Hewlett-Packard. While Rick graciously lets our "discussions" follow their own course, I don't think HP would take the same view of a list being used/abused (ie. the recent incense message) for internet marketing or other commercial ventures. I know the US government doesn't and since the National Science Foundation supports much of internet you can imagine some distubing outcomes. Just my 2 cents worth. Jeff ################### From: Adam Wexler Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 11:08:19 -0800 (PST) XSubject: Netiquette I have succesfully subscribed to taxon, thanks to all who helped. -ADW ################### From: barry@mips3.as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 13:28:52 -0700 Subject: Internet marketing Wow, I've been with this list since it began, and I guess the appearance of flames indicates it's matured. :) There's been some discussion about the appropriateness of using the newsgroup as a market place. I've got a few thoughts on this... First, there's the crap on the list regarding buying incense. That kind of stuff is basic abuse of the network and is indefensible. I think the person responsible should be covered with dried dung and slowly burnt. (for the easily incensed, that's just a joke) Second, there's the occasional distribution by hobbyists, of seeds or plants for money. I do this twice a year with _Sarracenia_ seeds and seedlings, as well as year-round with people who inquire about my Utrics etc and who have little or no trading leverage. I think this is entirely appropriate. I used to distribute plants for free until the postage charges added up (as this newsgroup enlarged!). And no insult to the newer growers, but it became tiresome to constantly package and ship specimens of _D.capillaris_ and _D.capensis_ to people with no trade coming back. So either I live with postage charges of $30/month in altruistic bliss (and pay no attention to the righteous cluckings from the missus), or not distribute plants to people at all (wouldn't that be obnoxious!), or charge a few bucks to cover postage and effort on my part. Third, there's the semi-professional work that Andreas or Uwe does. Again, I have no problem with that. I think that the occasional message from those growers saying what they have for sale is fine. If every time I got a bundle of mail it included THE-LATEST-PLANTS-AVAILABLE-BUY-BUY-BUY I'd get a little irritated. But that's not the situation at all. I also think their prices are perfectly fine considering the tiny market as well as the laboratory skills these guys have developed. One of my favorite things about CPing is that other than the limited set of species available to the starting CPer from the few nurseries, if you want to get plants you MUST network, and in the process you meet some really great people from around the globe. I trade extensively with other growers, but can do so because I have a large collection. Other mechanisms must exist in order to allow newbies to gain trading leverage. Barry ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 16:11:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Internet marketing > From listserv@jr.hpl.hp.com Fri Jan 6 15:50:27 1995 > > Wow, I've been with this list since it began, and I guess the appearance > of flames indicates it's matured. :) > > There's been some discussion about the appropriateness of using the newsgroup > as a market place. I've got a few thoughts on this... > > First, > Second, > Third, > > Barry > Well said Barry, couldn't agree more. Tom in Fl ################### From: "Jeffrey Michael Stein" Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 17:58:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Tissue Culture of Drosera > It has been some time since we've discussed TC formulas. I'm also just > a beginner, but here is a list summarizing what I know (with great > appreciation to Jan Schlauer, Andreas Wistuba, and Tom Hillson for their > input!) If anyone else can add to this list, please do! Yes! Finally some media's and hormone concentrations! One question arrises: > Nepenthes {L.} > - 2/3 Knudsen C(*)with 0.2-2mg/L BAP for mult. Rooting horm. > not neces. > - Anderson's may be used also (N. ephippiata likes it). > - Lowland only: (DeKanel) .5 MS, 20g/L Sucrose, 6g/L agar. > w/ 0.1-0.2 BAP multiplying When referring to the BAP, are the concentrations in percentages, or is that mg/L? I assume percentages, but just to be safe. Thank you. Jeff ################### From: "Houston, James A." Date: Fri, 06 Jan 95 17:45:10 Subject: Loss of messages... Hi gang, I was just trying to isolate a problem I *think* I'm having... I have sent a few messages to the list, but I don't see them (since I subscribe to the list, I usually see the messages I post). What's bothering me about this is that I see responses to messages I wrote...but I don't see the post I made. That makes me wonder.... My mailer here at work is up and down like a yo-yo, it could be that. Is it normal practice for senders to NOT get messages that they post? If everyone who posts messages on the list - gets that same message because they are on the list, I'm missing many many messages because our system administrators here just reboot the computer when they have problems - I'm starting to wonder if they are trashing my in/out email by doing that. Sorry to bother you with this, I'm just trying to figure out what's going wrong with my email. Thanks, Jim Houston jh2@scires.com ################### From: Trisha Coene Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 16:28:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Hydroponicly grown CP's? On Wed, 28 Dec 1994, Clarke Brunt wrote: > What exactly is the definition of 'hydroponic'? Is it > any system where the 'soil' has no nutrients of its > own and everything is supplied in solution? Even when > the soil *does* have nutrients, they have to dissolve > in water to be absorbed by the plant, so I don't really > see what the difference is. > Well, I'm sure this has been answered already, but I've been away for the holidays, so I'm allowed to answer it again. I just happen to be the editor of a high-tech gardening magazine specializing in hydroponic cultivation, so I will give you a brief definition of hydroponics. Here it is: Soilless cultivation. That's it. It's a much faster and intensive method of growing, because the soil is not there to buffer nutrients. They go directly to the plants. The plants' roots are suspended in the growth chamber, which has a nutrient solution circulating throughout. They are supported by a growth medium: perlite, rockwool, clay pebbles... you get the idea. The solution is circulated via a pump. Do not use pine bark in a hydroponic system because, like soil, it will soak up precious elements. CPs will do extraordinarily well grown hydroponically, as does most everything else. I'm VERY glad to see this group is interested in hydroponic cultivation; it's the new era in growing. >From Trisha >tcoene@csos.orst.edu ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 19:10:05 -0800 Subject: New images on CP WWW page I just added the following images to the cp web page: From Isao Takai: Pinguicula macroceras (10 images), Pinguicula ramosa (4 images) From Geoff Wong: Nepenthes alata, Nepenthes glabrata From James Powell: Sarracenia alata, Darlingtonia californica (2 images), Sarracenia oreophila (2 images), Sarracenia leucophylla, Nepenthes * dyeriana, Nepenthes ventricosa * Nepenthes alata I also added a pointer to Barry's list of CP society addresses. We now have 73 images on line, and have logged 1122 access from 147 sites since Nov. 15th. Thanks guys! -- Rick Walker ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 19:30:59 -0800 Subject: Plants for Sale Thanks Barry, > There's been some discussion about the appropriateness of using the > newsgroup as a market place. I've got a few thoughts on this... As our group charter indicates: Topics of interest to the group include: 1) Cultivation and Propagation of CP's 2) Field observations of CP's 3) Sources of CP material 4) CP trading between members This includes reasonable postings of "plants for sale". If you are personally squeamish about this, or have a huge list that you think would be inappropriate to post, then: 1) send me your commercial list. 2) I will put in it the archives 3) you can then post a short note telling interested parties where to find your information Just to remind everyone: There is a consolidated price list of commercial sources in the archives under "cp.sellerlist". This list is only as good as the contributions I receive. Please send me new updates as you can! -------------------------- Dear Jeffrey, > When referring to the BAP, are the concentrations in percentages, or is that > mg/L? I assume percentages, but just to be safe. It is mg/L. Also, I have not had much success with 0.5MS media for Nepenthes. Several have germinated and died. I think it may be too strong of a mix for certain species (?) -------------------------- Dear James, I was just trying to isolate a problem I *think* I'm having... I have sent a few messages to the list, but I don't see them (since I subscribe to the list, I usually see the messages I post). The default is for the listserver to *not* send a carbon copy back to the originator. This cuts down on needless email. If you want to see your postings, either change your mail mode to ACK or DIGEST. -- Rick Walker ################### From: thacker@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 00:45:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Plants for Sale > Topics of interest to the group include: > > 1) Cultivation and Propagation of CP's > 2) Field observations of CP's > 3) Sources of CP material > 4) CP trading between members > > This includes reasonable postings of "plants for sale". I support this. I don't want to be flooded with for sale messages, but on the other hand it would be nice to know what is available and at what cost. many newbies like myself don't have much access to CP sources, and it seems that exports from the US to Canada (uh, legal exports that is) have been banned for many CP species, reducing the sources even further. (Okay I support restrictions designed to prevent wild harvesting of CPs, but I don't see why restrictions should be placed on certified greenhouse-raised plants). So I am interested in seeing what is available and at what cost...if I don't wish to buy then I don't have to. Don ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 11:43:12 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: Internet marketing > > > > Second, there's the occasional distribution by hobbyists, of seeds or plants > for money. I do this twice a year with _Sarracenia_ seeds and seedlings, > as well as year-round with people who inquire about my Utrics etc and who > have little or no trading leverage. I think this is entirely appropriate. > I used to distribute plants for free until the postage charges added up > (as this newsgroup enlarged!). And no insult to the newer growers, but it > became tiresome to constantly package and ship specimens of _D.capillaris_ > and _D.capensis_ to people with no trade coming back. So either I live with > postage charges of $30/month in altruistic bliss (and pay no attention to > the righteous cluckings from the missus), or not distribute plants to people > at all (wouldn't that be obnoxious!), or charge a few bucks to cover postage > and effort on my part. > Barry, I totally agree with you in this point. If I have something toto give away I usual give it away for free (I am to get something in exchange but I do not really expect it). Somehow, I do this in the belief of something like a hobbyists code of honour. You are right to demand to demand a compensation for postage if they add up sig- nificantly. At the same time I usually do not pay anything significant (>$10) for plants. > Third, there's the semi-professional work that Andreas or Uwe does. Again, > I have no problem with that. I think that the occasional message from > those growers saying what they have for sale is fine. If every time I > got a bundle of mail it included THE-LATEST-PLANTS-AVAILABLE-BUY-BUY-BUY > I'd get a little irritated. But that's not the situation at all. I also > think their prices are perfectly fine considering the tiny market as well > as the laboratory skills these guys have developed. I have got a slightly different opinion about this: IMO if tiny tissue cultured plants are sold for prices over say over $100 I strongly believe something is wrong. > > One of my favorite things about CPing is that other than the limited set > of species available to the starting CPer from the few nurseries, if you > want to get plants you MUST network, and in the process you meet some really > great people from around the globe. I trade extensively with other growers, > but can do so because I have a large collection. Other mechanisms must exist > in order to allow newbies to gain trading leverage. Right, and from my experience these "great" people are most of the time enthusiastic hobbyists who *do not rob* their friends. ..Michael > > Barry > -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: ritter@floyd.HQ.ileaf.com (Janice Ritter x5444) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 95 16:58:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Internet marketing I agree with Barry - a little trading/buying between hobbyists isn't a drag here - it's fun! It's how I got my first D.capensis, as well as my first Sarracenia. :-) Please don't stop posting a sale/trade list here and there. (And if anybody wants some D. capensis, btw, send me return postage and you can have them! Guess I'm treating them well enough for them to multiply...) Thanks, from a new cp enthusiast, Janice Ritter ritter@ileaf.com ################### From: korfhage@lis.pitt.edu (robert korfhage) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 95 08:16:03 EST Subject: Re: Loss of messages... Response to Jim Houston's query about not seeing his own messages. Funny, but that happens to me also, regularly. I've been puzzled about that. Does the list automatically filter out the sender's name, and not include that in the general circulation? If not, how come neither Jim nor I see any of the messages we send out to the list? Bob Korfhage korfhage@lis.pitt.edu ################### From: "Rogan Roth" Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 17:59:50 +200 Subject: Re: (re)Introduction -Reply Dear Andreas (and others), I support you whole heartedly and find the attack on you childish and totally unnecessary! I DO grow CP in vitro, using University resources and I also offer them to other collectors who may have something in their collection that we don't have in ours!! On many occasions I have wanted to obtain something without having anything to exchange in return, so I have been grateful to have had the opportunity to BUY it. Yes, I do enjoy the "commercial" aspects of plant hunting - without it how many specimens of rare plants would we have in our collections? Cheers for now. Regards Rogan Roth. (ROTH@GATE2.CC.UNP.AC.ZA) ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 07 Jan 1995 13:00:00 +0200 Subject: Re: Tissue Culture of Drosera > > - 2/3 Knudsen C(*)with 0.2-2mg/L BAP > > for mult. Rooting horm. > When referring to the BAP, are the > concentrations in percentages, or is that mg/L? > I assume percentages, but just to be safe. mg/L (phytohormones are very powerful even if the concentrations seem to extremely low) Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 95 14:06 EST Subject: RE: phytohormones > mg/L > (phytohormones are very powerful even if the concentrations seem to > extremely low) > Homeopathy for plants! :-) Michael ################### From: Bob Beer Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 11:44:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: (re)Introduction -Reply I agree wholeheartedly. I think that it is completely appropriate for cp growers to let people know what they have in a cp group. It is not the same as fending off telephone solicitors trying to sell you something with no relevance, or our "Mr. Incense" episode.. Since so many people find a group like this because of requests to find cp material, why shouldn't readers be made aware of it? With appropriate headers, it is easy to avoid reading posts that one doesn't find interesting. Bob On Sat, 7 Jan 1995, Rogan Roth wrote: > Dear Andreas (and others), > > I support you whole heartedly and find the attack on you childish > and totally unnecessary! I DO grow CP in vitro, using University > resources and I also offer them to other collectors who may have > something in their collection that we don't have in ours!! On > many occasions I have wanted to obtain something without having > anything to exchange in return, so I have been grateful to have > had the opportunity to BUY it. Yes, I do enjoy the "commercial" > aspects of plant hunting - without it how many specimens of rare > plants would we have in our collections? > > Cheers for now. > > Regards > Rogan Roth. > > (ROTH@GATE2.CC.UNP.AC.ZA) > ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Sat, 07 Jan 95 17:03 EST Subject: RE: trade & sell > I agree wholeheartedly. I think that it is completely appropriate for cp > growers to let people know what they have in a cp group. It is not the > same as fending off telephone solicitors trying to sell you something with > no relevance, or our "Mr. Incense" episode.. Since so many people find a > group like this because of requests to find cp material, why shouldn't > readers be made aware of it? With appropriate headers, it is easy to > avoid reading posts that one doesn't find interesting. At the risk of preaching to the choir, I'll put in my wholehearted agreement as well! One of the really nice things about cp collecting is the circulation of plant material through trading (or selling for nominal costs), be it through the ICPS seedbank or through contacts with fellow growers (ie. through this group). Unlike the collecting of stamps, or coins, or even other living things like birds or cacti, cp are comparatively very easy to propagate. If you grow them well, you'll probably have more than you need on your hands. But they don't become weeds because cp have that all-so-tantalizing ability to die very suddenly without any forewarning :-) This is just another good reason to "spread the wealth" through trading, and not be proprietary about one's specimens. most cp mature very rapidly (say I, as a cactus collector :-) so a nice specimen is really a sign of good cultivation, not just a sign of a big ancient plant probably hoisted from the wild back in the 1960's (as so many of today's prize specimen cacti were). Most importantly, a good web of collectors all exchanging propagules cuts down on the drive to exploit wild plants. Why pay big bucks for a Venus Flytrap of dubious origin? I think there will always be someone on the list willing to trade, sell, or give away a few extra VFTs! Michael ################### From: Ron Gagliardo <74002.1371@compuserve.com> Date: 07 Jan 95 19:34:55 EST Subject: Re: CP digest 215 Jeff, BAP (or BA) is an extremely potent cytokinin. I am not certain (and would love to know if someone has info), but it seems that it is taken up from the media and the effects are long lasting on Nepenthes plants. I have seen Nepenthes plants that never seem to stop producing axillary buds after coming out of the lab. I would like to know if anyone has looked at concentrations of synthetic phytohormones in established TC plants of various ages. I avoid this one in the lab. Kinetin is much more forgiving. I have had the most success (ie. 9 of 10 species roughly) using 1/3 strength MS Minimal Organic salts (add extra Thiamine and Inositol to account for the dilution, let me know if I need to explain this further), 3% sucrose, pH 5-6, and 1 mg/l kinetin. When I use BAP, 0.1-0.3 mg/liter seems plenty. I am trying Knudsons (1/2 strength) for a few Nepenthes that seem to require more basic conditions at least in my experience (N. macrovulagaris, etc.) Of course, this would give them more nitrogen, etc., too. Hope this helps. Best, Ron Gagliardo ################### From: Harold Slater Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 19:58:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Plants for Sale On Fri, 6 Jan 1995 thacker@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote: > it seems that exports from the US to Canada (uh, legal exports that is) > have been banned for many CP species, reducing the sources even further. > (Okay I support restrictions designed to prevent wild harvesting of CPs, > but I don't see why restrictions should be placed on certified > greenhouse-raised plants). So I am interested in seeing what is CPs aren't banned from importation they just require a CITES certificate. The problem for us here in Canada is that most (well, maybe all) growers in the U.S. don't want to or haven't got their USFWS cites export license. I think it costs $140 for 2 or 3 years(?) and if they don't have many export clients it isn't worth it for them. Even after they have the license they have to apply for a CITES certificate for each separate shipment. This can take from 2-4 weeks and costs $25.00 each. When the plants are to be shipped they then have to be inspected by a USFWS officer who stamps the certificate and makes the final OK. Of course you still need the phytosanitary certificate and you have to make sure you have a plant import permit for our end of the shipment. If the nursery is in a non-designated CITES export port then it first has to be sent to a designated export port for the inspection because if the inspector has to go to the nursery in a distant spot they charge by the hour!! No fooling! Needless to say it stinks. There is an alternative that most nurseries don't want to do (can't blame them) is to apply for a CITES export permit under their own names and not as a business. If they send it to you as if you were a friend then they can get the certificate without all the bother of having an actual license for their company. Harold ################### From: Ron Gagliardo <74002.1371@compuserve.com> Date: 08 Jan 95 10:19:20 EST Subject: Re: In vitro Nepenthes and their respective data, etc. Dear Andreas, Pardon the delay in responding to Digest 214. Well it seems that you have taken this way too personally, which I regret. However, I think that we are allowing this to cloud the important points. I would like to comment on a few things for interest of the group >I further feel and that also is not meant arrogant (but maybe a little >proud) that relatively few people to which I d count myself have >introduced many species to the collections simply as a consequence of >tissue culture techniques. Others are now available at prices which >impressively dropped making e.g. N. rajah a plant everybody can grow >_without_ _paying_ _huge_ _sums_ _or_ _being_ _in_ _danger_ _of_ _buying_ >_wild_ _collected_ _plants_. These techniques made it possible to >propagate species which could not otherwise be propagated at all. And - >furthermore the accurancy of labelling has greatly improved because almost >all plants sold really are what the label says. I am not sure you read my message closely. This is truly a great thing and as I said, I APPLAUDE YOUR EFFORTS!!!!!! I agree, 5 years ago, even the thought of growing one's own N rajah was difficult due to lack of plant material!!! I AM EXTREMELY HAPPY ABOUT THIS! I am just inquiring about what the labels actually say. >> In my opinion, the seller should be required to >> supply the following data with their plants: > Collection location >>I fully agree with you in this point as long as it is possible (see above). That's good. For the serious collector, it must be possible. Even if the seed came from cultivated material from a botanical garden that perhaps lost the label or data, such information should be revealed. Even if the data ends up reading "seeds collected from plants grown at the Munich Botanical Garden, collecting data for which is lost." >> collection dates >>Why? What s important is the location. Yes, location is important, but date of collection is also important for wild collected seeds. This might deter others from going back to collect more seeds or help detect possible hybridization that occurred in another year. Seed collected from the same plant might be different from year to year depending on it's surroundings, etc. (A small point, I admit) A larger point, though, regarding location data is that is is necessary for any restoration work. Is anyone doing any thing with TC Nepenthes other than collecting seed, working out the techniques of growing them and then distributing them to growers? What about coordinating restoration work with the countries of origin? I realize that the beauracracy involved may seem insurmountable, but have you inquired? I also realize that restoration with a limited number of genotypes may not be in the long term best interests, making in necessary to maintain large numbers of separate clones, etc. Another obstacle to work at. . . . . >> if applicable, how long in vitro >>Why? >> how long out of vitro (important for your >> success in growing a new arrival) >>Of cause all plants have to be established prior to sale. I think this should be the case. >>Only to give the info of a date does not mean that the plant is >>established. I agree 100% >>In fact it means nothing for the grower who is not really >>into tissue culture. I disagree and this is an important point for the folks who are getting in TC Nepenthes. I frequently show visitors to the Atlanta Botanical Garden two separate plants of Nepenthes (I use N truncata, ventricosa, khasiana, and some hybrids as examples) to compare the vigor and growth rates of seed grown plants (WITH GERMINATION AND ANY SUBSEQUENT TRANSPLANT DATES) with that of much superior in vitro plants (AGAIN, WITH ALL THE DATES!!). Of course they are amazed and often say that they are interested in obtaining such plants (and I refer them to sources, by the way!), but without some data, making the comparisons will be much more difficult. >>What counts in the end is only the state of the plant. No matter how long >>the establishing period took. I think you are underestimating the scientific ability of the growers here. While just obtaining N. rajah or N. lowii in any form may totally satisfy some collectors, I venture to say that there will be many who are more interested in the background of their plants. Through ICPS, many are now growing their own Nepenthes from seed and in some limited cases will have things to compare. > If wild > collected, possible male parent >>What really is important is the fact that the supplier guarantees for the >>labelling and that the plants are well established. I agree and I realize that it might fill volumes for the seller to provide all the data with the plants when they publish a price list for instance. Also, I agree that there may be some discrepancies as to what is a true species in some cases. However, to keep things totally above board, some labelling changes might be in order. What if all the TC sources were to label their plant accordingly as to origin of the seed? Perhaps a W for wild collected and C for cultivated, then make more data available when people inquire. What about a worldwide data bank that we could all send our TC data to for distribution to botanical gardens, etc.? I am merely throwing out ideas now. >> Ask your tissue culture source if they have >> grown plants on to near maturity or at least to >> a size that indicates a true identity. A size that indicates identity may not take too long to achieve under good conditions. I was not speaking of flowering size. This is a cloudy issue in my mind, because mature-type pitchers may not develop so quickly in some species, etc. A policy to replace or refund for any that do not come "true" should cover that. > BUT that is when they gear up to do > thousands of each variety... >>If I would count the time I ve invested in many of the slow growing highland species I could not sell them at all because I would have to ask _really_ astronomical sums.But luckily for most of the suppliers the main reason to grow in-vitro stuff is simply passion and love to the plants. Compare the prices of rarer orchids which in fact can be very expensive with prices for rare Nepenthes and you ll see that Nepenthes are not at all overpriced. I can relate to what it takes to set up and run a lab. I started with a UV box in high school and ended up with several flow hoods, two autoclaves and almost round the clock production. The costs can be phenomenal to set up a professional lab. On a hobby scale, one could easily set up a facility in a spare room of their house for US$2000.00 . But this is partly the price of passion and love of the plants, I agree. I will say that costs can vary greatly depending on whether or not one is supporting himself only by their TC work or if it is done "on the side" as a hobby. >>The opposite is true: Since there are quite a few people who try to sell a >>few of their in vitro offsprings Nepenthes prices have dropped rapidly. I agree. If these people are on the internet (and I think several are), I'd like to hear their opinions on collection, maintenance and distribution of data. >>Joachim, Heiko and I ve seen several populations of Nepenthes where we >>would feel that tissue culture is the only chance to save at least an >>image of the plant which will be extinct in 5 or ten years. I also agree with your views on loss of habitat, etc. I believe the combination of factors leading to loss of habitat cause the most problems for Nepenthes and other plants and animals, etc. There is nothing to argue there. I was recently in Costa Rica, where the same thing is happening. It does however, make our roles in conservation missions more pressing, as things are literally disappearing before our eyes. We must not lose sight of the fact that along with the distribution of plant material as a result of our efforts in the lab, there is also a greater need to share the data and experiences that come along the way. Coming to work at a botanical garden, the mission of which is partly (and a large part) to to promote plants for conservation, research and education, I am beginning to understand this all a lot better. A public apology for letting my "imagination" out regarding the funding of plant hunts, etc. What people do with the profits from plant sales is of no business of mine and I regret any suppositions to the contrary. Best, Ron Gagliardo ------------------------------ ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 08 Jan 1995 08:32:00 +0200 Subject: Re: CP digest 215 > Nepenthes plants that never seem to stop > producing axillary buds after coming out of the > lab. I would like to know if anyone has looked > at concentrations... In my experience usually (not always...) a rooting step with IBA prior to potting stops the problem. Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 16:51:26 +0000 Subject: Re: Loss of messages... > Response to Jim Houston's query about not seeing his own messages. > Funny, but that happens to me also, regularly. I've been puzzled > about that. Does the list automatically filter out the sender's name, > and not include that in the general circulation? If not, how come > neither Jim nor I see any of the messages we send out to the list? As far as I know (it's in the help for the listserv) the default behaviour is *not* to mail messages back to the sender. There are some listserv commands to modify this (remember to post to listserv and not to cp if you try them) set cp mail noack (the default - don't return your own mail) set cp mail ack (*do* send messages back) set cp mail postpone (don't send any messages at all) To resume, after you have postponed, just set it to ack or noack. -- Clarke Brunt (clarke@brunt.demon.co.uk) ################### From: Joachim Nerz Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 10:53:14 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: IN VITRO stuff Dear Michael, please think, before you bring your 'Internet-Stuff' about 'In Vitro stuff'. All the people, who I know, do progagate the In Vitro plants by their own and not with any supply of Universities and I don't want to tell you, how expensive it is. In the time, when you are going maybe with your girlfriend to the cinema, they sit at their hood and propagate the plant-material and I think, it is quite legitime (maybe not about internet) to sell it, to get back the uncost. They do it because of private interest, but please tell me a better way, to save endangered species in the wild! Plant-hunting will not be any more interesting, if you can get all the stuff for some $ out of In Vitro cultures. Who is anymore interested to hunt N. rajah, if you can get it complete with CITES to buy everywhere. So, now tell me please, what you are doing, to save the species in the wild! You can e.g. buy the areas, where rare species are growing, to protect it from logging or try to organize it, but do it. Have a e.g a look to Borneo! Do you know how long the species will survive in the wild? They are killed by logging and fire, not by plant-hunters and I would be happy, if I would have got seed from species like N. neglecta or N. campanulata from them to keep the genome alive, at least in the tube and in a lot of greenhouses. Now they are extinct and we can't bring them back again! Sorry for this hard lines, but think about that. Joe N. ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 11:51:52 +0100 Subject: Re: New Pinguicula? Dioecy, Do you remember: >(...) I met a Mexican student recently >who also has an interest in the Panguiculas.(...) He has , or is about to >finish publishing one which he is calling P. monteczuma, (not to clear about >the spelling yet) it should be showing up soon. It has shown up! ZAMUDIO-RUIZ & ORTEGA, ACTA BOT.MEX.28:58 (1994) COMMENT: _Pinguicula moctezumae_ is described as new. It is closely related to _P.gypsicola_ (very narrow, pointed "summer" leaves), and it occurs at several places in the Canyon of R.Moctezuma, Mexico. It differs from _P.g._ by the broad, elliptic to obovoid corolla lobes (similar to _P.colimensis_). The corolla is shown to be subject to considerable variation in the same paper. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 13:54:27 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff Dear Joachim, I am sorry that you got me wrong (as Andreas). I simply do not care if or if not you or anybody earns a golden nose propagating 'In Vitro stuff' with or without support from Universities, NSF, NSA, NRA, or whatsoever. I mind if things here get 'too commercial'. I do not mind references to sources or people offering their stuff for trade or sale. Parti- cular, if astronomical 'black market' prices are requested. > > Dear Michael, > > please think, before you bring your 'Internet-Stuff' about 'In Vitro stuff'. > All the people, who I know, do progagate the In Vitro plants by their own > and not with any supply of Universities and I don't want to tell you, how > expensive it is. In the time, when you are going maybe with your > girlfriend to the cinema, they sit at their hood and propagate the > plant-material and I think, it is quite legitime (maybe not about > internet) to sell it, to get back the uncost. Yepp, nobody forces you to take these costs. It's your own pleasure. I have mine indeed going out with my girlfriend. :-) > > They do it because of private interest, but please tell me a better way, > to save endangered species in the wild! Plant-hunting will not be any > more interesting, if you can get all the stuff for some $ out of In Vitro > cultures. Who is anymore interested to hunt N. rajah, if you can get it > complete with CITES to buy everywhere. This is hypocritical. Honestly, if you make xxxx bucks by selling N.yyyyyy it is first of all the money you get for an extremely seldom plant. Tissue culture is not the topic here. It just shortens turn-around times, i.e. the time until the species is readily available. Thus, it is nothing more than a production technique. The point I make is that people are not hunting for N.rajah (because it is readily available) but others. The names change (very fast). Still the problem has the same features as earlier. In contrast to the past people now run to the rain forrest collecting new species (naming them thus creating a market and propagating them in their own monetary interest believing in the need to environmentally -> tissue cultured satisfy the demand). You know yourself that the genetic diversity is not preserved by tissue culture. You also know the market value of newly introduced species. What I accuse is the hypocracy to say "we are doing tissue culture to save the rain forrest" instead of saying "yes they have a market value and that is why I am propagating them for my own financial benefit". If this is in a commercial scale the internet is the wrong place to market it. I am not talking about 'uncosts'. I am talking about plants little tiny bastards (tissue cultured 2cm in height) offered for $50 and more. This is not the hobbyist propagating them in his/her hood (during the time when other's are going out with their girlfriends) for his/her fun but an entrepreneur with the aim to make money. > > So, now tell me please, what you are doing, to save the species in the > wild! You can e.g. buy the areas, where rare species are growing, to > protect it from logging or try to organize it, but do it. See above. You do not save the genetic diversity by tissue culture of one (not even two male/female) plant. So, tell me please, what do you do against the global warming, the war in Chechnia, ... > Have a e.g a look to Borneo! Do you know how long the species will > survive in the wild? They are killed by logging and fire, not by > plant-hunters and I would be happy, if I would have got seed from species > like N. neglecta or N. campanulata from them to keep the genome alive, at > least in the tube and in a lot of greenhouses. Now they are extinct and > we can't bring them back again! What does N.xxxx help us in the tube if the forrests are gone ? It is hypocritical to say plant collectors do any good to the nature by ha- ving the plants in their greenhouses. It is for their own fun. > > Sorry for this hard lines, but think about that. Read my comments. We all have to make our living somehow. > > Joe N. > > ..Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: Ron Gagliardo <74002.1371@compuserve.com> Date: 09 Jan 95 07:06:44 EST Subject: Re: CP digest 216 Greetings all. Well, it seems that my messages have been a bit misinterpreted lately and I wanted to clarify a couple issues recently brought out by Bob Beer and Rogan Roth. First, I have no problem with people making plants available for trade or sale on the list. I have always been a advocate of trading plants. It puts the FUN into it. This is NOT the issue. Secondly, my initial message was not an attack on anyone. I was merely bringing up a few issues that I thought needed to be addressed. I think that what folks are doing with regards to in vitro Nepenthes is good, but I think that for the novices on the list (and others) that the TC folks should give us more data! And why aren't more of them speaking out? R.Roth wrote: >Yes, I do enjoy the "commercial" > aspects of plant hunting - without it how many specimens of rare > plants would we have in our collections? > Case in point, I think you are missing the point. The goal here is not just adding the rarest Nepenthes to our collections, regardless of price, but to use these techniques and more importantly, this list and our various contacts to work toward the preservation of these plants for all, not just our own collections. I suggest that all the folks doing in vitro work post their in vitro collections and perhaps encourage more exchange among ourselves. Perhaps we could make a separate archived list of in vitro sources/researchers? Any thoughts Rick Walker? Best, Ron Gagliardo ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 13:07:02 +0100 Subject: Re: Casper monograph Ivo, >PS:Jan, may I ask you where in the Czechoslovakia were you born? > It is very interesting! Thanks. I was born in Prague. Very interesting place (PRESL, WETTSTEIN, DOMIN, KRAJINA, DOSTAL...I know this list is far from complete; just a few +/- representatives), indeed! Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 14:34:12 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: CP digest 216 > > > Case in point, I think you are missing the point. The goal here is > not just adding the rarest Nepenthes to our collections, regardless of > price, but to use these techniques and more importantly, this list and > our various contacts to work toward the preservation of these plants > for all, not just our own collections. I suggest that all the folks > doing in vitro work post their in vitro collections and perhaps > encourage more exchange among ourselves. Perhaps we could make a > separate archived list of in vitro sources/researchers? Any thoughts > Rick Walker? > > Hi, (this is getting the most exciting thread since alt.nuke.damn.saddam. hussein :-) albeit I doubt the potential of tissue culture to preserve a species rather than to preserve one particular gene-set, I believe this would at least enforce competion. 'The right to choose'. ..Michael ObQuestion: What did you do to save the rain forrests today ? ObAnswer: I sold one tissue cultured N.speculatius for 200 bucks. > Best, > Ron Gagliardo > -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 13:15:49 +0100 Subject: Re: Pings Christopher, >Basically they seem to be forming very small, reddish orbs at the >center of their rosettes. Anyone have any idea what this could be? >Could they be forming their winter resting buds? I'm also curious to >know what species they are, if anyone with more knowledge of pings >out there knows what the Peter Pauls plants are. Are the orbs still what they were, or have they developed into flowers already? For ID of _Pinguicula_ spp., flowers are necessary. Try to measure the length of the spur (backward pointing appendage to the corolla lower lip) and the dimension and relative positions of the corolla (coloured flower parts) lobes. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Heiko Rischer Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 14:19:14 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: Tissue Culture of Drosera On Thu, 5 Jan 1995, Kyle Williams wrote: > > I was wondering if some of you out there could give me some advice on > tissue culture of Drosera (D. capensis and D. binata specifically)? You already got basic data for the tissue culture from different people. There is nothing to add in reference to the formulas but there is a trick getting plant material sterile:Species like D. binata or D. capensis often produce flower stalks and it is easier getting these parts sterile, because the tissue is not as soft as leaves. When sterile planted, the stalks will soon produce buds. Hope, the message reaches you in time and helps Heiko ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 95 08:20 EST Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff This brings up an interesting question: if one mixes cultures of male and female Nepenthes tissues, or even of different species, is it possible to produce a chimera possessing tissues of both parents? Michael ################### From: strayer@unix.sri.com (Michael Strayer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 95 05:40:44 PST Subject: Listserver Help I have been trying to access archive files on the listserver but all I get is the following message : >No requests found in your message. Requests should be included in the >body of the mail message. > Ths message body that generated this was send cp.sellerlist Could someone out there give me a clue as to where I'm screwing up? Thanks Mike Strayer ################### From: Christopher Waldrop Date: Mon, 09 Jan 1995 07:54:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Pings Regarding the Peter Pauls Pings: > Are the orbs still what they were, or have they developed into flowers > already? For ID of _Pinguicula_ spp., flowers are necessary. Try to > measure the length of the spur (backward pointing appendage to the > corolla lower lip) and the dimension and relative positions of the > corolla (coloured flower parts) lobes. I checked them last night, and one appears to be forming a scape separate from the "orbs", which have expanded in size. They're starting to look like they may be new plants budding from the parent, despite the reddish tinge, but I had thought these would form on the outer leaves (as in the case with primuliflora) rather than in the center of the rosette. I've been hoping for some time now that either one of these will bloom, because maybe then I'll be able to ID them. ################### From: Heiko Rischer Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 14:59:39 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff Dear Michael, Nobody believes that "in vitro culture saves the rain forest". It is true that TC is a new propagation technique but not "just" a technique. It gives the chance to save endangered plants in culture (you mentioned the high turn-over-rates). This takes the pressure by collecting from areas in the wild where these species naturally occur (not the pressure by logging, this is another problem). You are right saying that there are even in these days new undiscoverd species out there in the jungle (i.e. the small areas left), but I disagree if you claim these will be discovered and named because somebody wants to create a new market with tissue cultered plants. There is a scientific interest in these with or without the possibility of TC. In my opinion it is better having these new species in vitro and making them available to the public than never knowing that these species exist at all or being already destroyed. Regards Heiko PS:I think the idea opening up an archive dealing with TC is very good. This would provide the public with informations , so everybody can make his mind about the difficulties of TC and the Knowledge is not restricted to a small "elite" (Monopolists), if somebody should be afraid of this. ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 16:49:45 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff Hi Heiko, > > Dear Michael, > Nobody believes that "in vitro culture saves the rain forest". we are making progress! :-) > It is true that TC is a new propagation technique but not "just" a > technique. It gives the chance to save endangered plants in culture > (you mentioned the high turn-over-rates). This takes the pressure > by collecting from areas in the wild where these species naturally > occur (not the pressure by logging, this is another problem). > You are right saying that there are even in these days new undiscoverd (by 'new' I meant not readily available) > species out there in the jungle (i.e. the small areas left), but I > disagree if you claim these will be discovered and named because > somebody wants to create a new market with tissue cultered plants. No, but it is welcomed opportunity to be able to sell them overpriced in high numbers in a short time. That was my argument and in this there is no difference to "Victorian plant hunters" albeit with re- spect to the damage caused to the environment. > There is a scientific interest in these with or without the > possibility of TC. Undoubtedly! > In my opinion it is better having these new species in vitro and > making them available to the public than never knowing that these > species exist at all or being already destroyed. Sure, as more or less 'artificial' artifacts disembodied from their environment with no realistic hope ever to be reestablished. So, what is the value, anyway ? What is a species without its ecosystem. > > Regards > Heiko > > PS:I think the idea opening up an archive dealing with TC is very good. > This would provide the public with informations , so everybody can make > his mind about the difficulties of TC and the Knowledge is not restricted > to a small "elite" (Monopolists), if somebody should be afraid of this. For us hobbyists this is a great idea but please drop these exaggerated claims that we would save the world if we had a stock of tissue cultured CPs. Greeting from Finland, Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: Bob Beer Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 07:14:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff It seems that if we are dealing with species and not hybrids where exact hybrid traits are wanted, tissue culture should be looked upon as, if not a last resort, then as less desirable. Seed is more work, especially in plants that are dioiceous like Nepenthes, but the genetic diversity is just as important in culture as it is in the wild. And who's to say that there will never be opportunities to reintroduce some of these species back into the wild? It is not the same as wild plants, but there is better chance of succeeding if we have the greatest amount of genetic material possible. I have been told by rose experts that many of the old varieties that have been reproduced by cloning over the years are destined to die out eventually; it is "tired" genetic material and it becomes less viable each time it is cloned. We are talking hundreds or more years (some roses varieties have been in cultivation since egyptian times) but the effects are becoming evident. We certainly want to make sure we don't put individual species into this position. >From my understanding, however, tissue culture, although it produces a high degree of uniformity, is not *completely* "fool-proof" in producing all clones; some degree of mutation does occur. I know of cases where tissue culture of a particular variegate form or color of a plant comes out with a certain small percentage reverting to non-variegated, or a different color flower. (I realize these numbers are extremely small though) ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 16:20:46 +0100 Subject: We can save the world (was RE: IN VITRO stuff) Michael, >(...) The names change (very fast). Some taxonomists do their best to slow down the speed a bit. >(...)In contrast to the past >people now run to the rain forrest collecting new species (naming them >thus creating a market and propagating them in their own monetary >interest believing in the need to environmentally -> tissue cultured >satisfy the demand). No. At least not the people I know. Of course, sometimes the interest in cps is not entirely scientific. But you must accept that at least some field exploration has helped to even *reduce* the number of names and taxonomic problems. >You know yourself that the genetic diversity is not preserved by tissue >culture. Genetic diversity is much less preserved by destruction of the natural habitats (which is in too many cases even sponsored by local governments!). Certainly, one clone is a poor representation of a species, but it is very much more than ZERO clones, isn't it? >So, tell me please, what do you do against the global warming, the war in >Chechnia, ... This is not really a satisfactory answer to the questions posed. >What does N.xxxx help us in the tube if the forrests are gone ? It is >hypocritical to say plant collectors do any good to the nature by ha- >ving the plants in their greenhouses. It is for their own fun. (...) >Sure, as more or less 'artificial' artifacts disembodied from their >environment with no realistic hope ever to be reestablished. So, what >is the value, anyway ? What is a species without its ecosystem. Again, one clone is much more than none! I do firmly believe in a high value of any living creature (especially if it is a cp ;-)), as it is a unique organism formed by millions of years of evolution. We probably won't be able to prevent destruction of the habitats (too many people *want* the destruction; v.s.), so let us at least try to prevent (admittedly, only a very tiny little bit of) extinction. Any extinct species (or other taxon) is a loss which cannot be compensated by any human effort (forget about "Jurassic Park", it doesn't work!). So every successful attempt at preserving even a limited set of individuals representing a taxon is an achievement. Nobody can solve all the problems globally, and at once, but I think ex situ conservation is a serious issue (irrespective of the technique used). (...) >For us hobbyists this is a great idea but please drop these exaggerated >claims that we would save the world if we had a stock of tissue cultured CPs. Maybe some future (wiser) race will rediscover the value of *biological* species living in the environment they were adapted to for millions of years (until _Homo "sapiens"_ - nomen illegitimum? - came to kill them within a few hundred years). These guys may prove grateful for some grains to sow... Kind regards Jan PS:>No, but it is welcomed opportunity to be able to sell them overpriced >in high numbers in a short time. Here is my tip of the day: If it's too much $$, you don't need to buy! I would *love* an ad like: "Liquidation sale because of space limitation. Buy 50 _Utricularia podadena_ and 50 _U.dimorphantha_ for five bucks, and get 50 _Pinguicula algida_ and 50 _Nepenthes rajah_ free!..." Where is your price limit (even if the stuff were from TC)? Sorry all you people who have read this stuff and not benefited from it. I really hate to waste bandwidth, but there are more than 2 recipients involved. ################### From: James Powell Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 10:27:27 -36803936 (EST) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff I believe that preserving an otherwise extinct species of plant in cultivation has a greater potential benefit to the world than preserving an otherwise extinct species of animal in a zoo. Plants (apparently) lack any learned behavior, so if we are able to successfully cultivate them in an artificial environment, then we have the information and genetic material necessary to possibly someday re-establish this plant in a recreated habitat. I do not believe that my own personal collection of plants ensures the survival of a species, but there is a chance that as a group, hobbyists and professional growers will maintain a genetically diverse collection of material. Tissue culture and a coordinated breeding program among growers would both be valuable tools. Where will environmental science lead in the next century? I believe it will lead to the study of ecosystems with an eye towards reverting clear cut areas which have been depleted of soil nutrients and eroded to their former state. The more species that have been preserved, the more likely this can be done. Perhaps nepenthes and other carnivorous species have a bigger role in such a plan than we can imagine since they do not require nutrient rich soil. I'm not usually an optimist, but I do not see how we can preserve the earth if we do not take this route... ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 18:03:48 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: We can save the world !!! > > Michael, > > >(...) The names change (very fast). > > Some taxonomists do their best to slow down the speed a bit. Your work is highly appreciate. It enables us to keep our collections complete and uptodate. :-) > >(...)In contrast to the past > >people now run to the rain forrest collecting new species (naming them > >thus creating a market and propagating them in their own monetary > >interest believing in the need to environmentally -> tissue cultured > >satisfy the demand). > > No. At least not the people I know. No offense intended. In the calvinistic belief I think everybody may try to turn his hobby into a profession. :-) > > Of course, sometimes the interest in cps is not entirely scientific. But > you must accept that at least some field exploration has helped to even > *reduce* the number of names and taxonomic problems. I accept! > > >You know yourself that the genetic diversity is not preserved by tissue > >culture. > > Genetic diversity is much less preserved by destruction of the natural > habitats (which is in too many cases even sponsored by local governments!). > Certainly, one clone is a poor representation of a species, but it is very > much more than ZERO clones, isn't it? getting mathematically, right ? Feeling at home with zeros and ones! :-) > > >So, tell me please, what do you do against the global warming, the war in > >Chechnia, ... > > This is not really a satisfactory answer to the questions posed. No, this is just the same kind of question, so try to answer my question! What I do against the deforrestation ? Wait, (thinking, ..., thinking, ...) yes, I am using a Green PC. :-) > > >What does N.xxxx help us in the tube if the forrests are gone ? It is > >hypocritical to say plant collectors do any good to the nature by ha- > >ving the plants in their greenhouses. It is for their own fun. > (...) > >Sure, as more or less 'artificial' artifacts disembodied from their > >environment with no realistic hope ever to be reestablished. So, what > >is the value, anyway ? What is a species without its ecosystem. > > Again, one clone is much more than none! I do firmly believe in a high > value of any living creature (especially if it is a cp ;-)), as it is a > unique organism formed by millions of years of evolution. Let's set up memorials for the dinosaurs. :-) > (...) > >For us hobbyists this is a great idea but please drop these > >exaggerated claims that we would save the world if we had a stock of > >tissue cultured CPs. > > > Maybe some future (wiser) race will rediscover the value of > *biological* species living in the environment they were adapted to > for millions of years (until _Homo "sapiens"_ - nomen illegitimum? - > came to kill them within a few hundred years). These guys may prove > grateful for some grains to sow... So, whatabout a tissue culture then (if they need seeds) ? :-) > > Kind regards > Jan > > PS:>No, but it is welcomed opportunity to be able to sell them overpriced > >in high numbers in a short time. > > Here is my tip of the day: If it's too much $$, you don't need to buy! Gracious lord! Who tought you the basics of a free market ? > > I would *love* an ad like: Yes, me too. Actually, I have to admit, I have never taken money for plants. Perhaps, I am the last hobbyist here. No, no, I don't need a hall of fame. :-) Yes, I swap/trade plants. > > "Liquidation sale because of space limitation. > Buy 50 _Utricularia podadena_ and 50 _U.dimorphantha_ for five bucks, > and get 50 _Pinguicula algida_ and 50 _Nepenthes rajah_ free!..." > > Where is your price limit (even if the stuff were from TC)? I would say rather low. Perhaps a few bucks plus porto expenses. Needless to say that I am not after N.speculatius subspecies Himalaya var Green subvar no_veins yellow flowers. :-) > > Sorry all you people who have read this stuff and not benefited from it. I > really hate to waste bandwidth, but there are more than 2 recipients > involved. 'involved' ?! This is not trial. I am sorry if there are still people outthere feeling emotionally personally involved/offended by my postings. :-) ..Michael ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 18:08:42 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff > Tissue culture and a coordinated breeding program among growers would both be > valuable tools. > (..) > Perhaps nepenthes and other carnivorous species have a bigger role > in such a plan than we can imagine since they do not require nutrient rich > soil. > > I'm not usually an optimist, but I do not see how we can preserve the earth > if we do not take this route... > and who takes care about all those plants which are less 'interesting'. I am mean it's soon time to enlargen our hoods for all these ferns, mosses, and other green life forms. Is our tissue culture fraction already working on it. Secret laboratories (not supported!) around! :-) ..Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: MWMINC@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 11:17:18 -0500 Subject: QUERY QUERY CP ################### From: "Brian Obrien" Date: Mon, 9 Jan 95 10:38:01 CST Subject: Re: We can save the world (was RE: IN VITRO stuff) Having followed this exchange for a while, I was considering sending a long post, but Jan Schlauer has pretty much summarized my viewpoint (below). I will add a couple of other items, though. I do not understand the implication that a species without its habitat is worthless (a contention which I have encountered in places other than this list). The logical conclusion to draw from such a claim is that preservation attempts are useless - we should simply give up attempts at preservation of _some_ of the biological diversity since all of the habitats probably won't be preserved. This would perhaps lead to a perversely satisfying(?) Pyrrhic victory for some, I suppose. Everyone with any knowledge of the biological world knows that habitat preservation is by far the best route to take, but why disparage efforts to preserve at least some fragments from habitats which are faced with extreme threats? I certainly do agree that one clone is infinitely better than NONE. In addition, it bothers me not at all for persons who are propagating rare plants to make some money from it, at least to offset some of the expense for materials, equipment, and time. I'm glad to see their talents used in such a manner. Perhaps free plants for all could be the goal within some horticultural Nirvana, but I don't think that we're particularly close to that situation at this point in history. With regard to tissue culture, at least it preserves the complete genome of one clone. Seed production from different clones is better, but once again, tissue culture is infinitely better than NOTHING. One drawback to seed production is the loss of variability through self-pollination (not a problem with dioecious plants like Nepenthes). For self-fertile plants, this might actually be inferior to tissue culture for conservation purposes. Brian On Mon, 9 Jan 1995 07:43:00 -0800, Jan Schlauer wrote: >Michael, > >>(...) The names change (very fast). > >Some taxonomists do their best to slow down the speed a bit. > >>(...)In contrast to the past >>people now run to the rain forrest collecting new species (naming them >>thus creating a market and propagating them in their own monetary >>interest believing in the need to environmentally -> tissue cultured >>satisfy the demand). > >No. At least not the people I know. > >Of course, sometimes the interest in cps is not entirely scientific. But >you must accept that at least some field exploration has helped to even >*reduce* the number of names and taxonomic problems. > >>You know yourself that the genetic diversity is not preserved by tissue >>culture. > >Genetic diversity is much less preserved by destruction of the natural >habitats (which is in too many cases even sponsored by local governments!). >Certainly, one clone is a poor representation of a species, but it is very >much more than ZERO clones, isn't it? > >>So, tell me please, what do you do against the global warming, the war in >>Chechnia, ... > >This is not really a satisfactory answer to the questions posed. > >>What does N.xxxx help us in the tube if the forrests are gone ? It is >>hypocritical to say plant collectors do any good to the nature by ha- >>ving the plants in their greenhouses. It is for their own fun. >(...) >>Sure, as more or less 'artificial' artifacts disembodied from their >>environment with no realistic hope ever to be reestablished. So, what >>is the value, anyway ? What is a species without its ecosystem. > >Again, one clone is much more than none! I do firmly believe in a high >value of any living creature (especially if it is a cp ;-)), as it is a >unique organism formed by millions of years of evolution. > >We probably won't be able to prevent destruction of the habitats (too many >people *want* the destruction; v.s.), so let us at least try to prevent >(admittedly, only a very tiny little bit of) extinction. > >Any extinct species (or other taxon) is a loss which cannot be compensated >by any human effort (forget about "Jurassic Park", it doesn't work!). So >every successful attempt at preserving even a limited set of individuals >representing a taxon is an achievement. Nobody can solve all the problems >globally, and at once, but I think ex situ conservation is a serious issue >(irrespective of the technique used). > >(...) >>For us hobbyists this is a great idea but please drop these exaggerated >>claims that we would save the world if we had a stock of tissue cultured CPs. > >Maybe some future (wiser) race will rediscover the value of *biological* >species living in the environment they were adapted to for millions of >years (until _Homo "sapiens"_ - nomen illegitimum? - came to kill them >within a few hundred years). These guys may prove grateful for some grains >to sow... > >Kind regards >Jan > >PS:>No, but it is welcomed opportunity to be able to sell them overpriced >>in high numbers in a short time. > >Here is my tip of the day: If it's too much $$, you don't need to buy! > >I would *love* an ad like: > >"Liquidation sale because of space limitation. >Buy 50 _Utricularia podadena_ and 50 _U.dimorphantha_ for five bucks, >and get 50 _Pinguicula algida_ and 50 _Nepenthes rajah_ free!..." > >Where is your price limit (even if the stuff were from TC)? > >Sorry all you people who have read this stuff and not benefited from it. I >really hate to waste bandwidth, but there are more than 2 recipients >involved. > > > > ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 11:57:14 -0500 Subject: Re: We can save the world (wa... Dear Andeas, We have all been greatly amused and have learned a great deal from this discussion. Please continue. We will all have questions enough when our seeds start to emerge. I see no resolution to the arguements other than in a whole different tack, and that is in education. Rainforest for most of us are unreal. So how many of you started this obsession at age 12 or yournger? Aren't you more aware of the problems of the rainforest for it? Don't exclude the educational resource from the process. The science of genetics is leaping forward in great strides. Who knows what will come of all this work. Since most of us cannot just pop off to Borneo for the weekend to collect seed, some of us are grateful that we can at least view the plants. OK, I haven't had my coffee yet, later Becky Michael- It is always a bad idea to point at someone else. Chances are you have no idea what this person is doing personally either for the rain forest, or Chechnea. ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 95 12:39 EST Subject: More tube talk > > > > > >What does N.xxxx help us in the tube if the forrests are gone ? It is > > >hypocritical to say plant collectors do any good to the nature by ha- > > >ving the plants in their greenhouses. It is for their own fun. > > (...) > > >Sure, as more or less 'artificial' artifacts disembodied from their > > >environment with no realistic hope ever to be reestablished. So, what > > >is the value, anyway ? What is a species without its ecosystem. > > Plant collecting (growing plants in a greenhouse) doesn't do nature any good, at least not directly. The grower purchases peat moss which was probably mined in Canada at the cost the destruction of many cp. The grower uses pots and heating/cooling. All of this taxes the environment to varying degrees. However, if a person is caught by the allure of cp or bird collecting, or herp collecting, or aquariums, this may very well lead to a greater appreciation for these organisms. Collecting may start as a kind of proprietary urge toward a big personal collection. But I think that continued exposure to the hobby will enlighten most hobbyists to the real plight of plants and their habitats. These collectors may grow to become real environmentalists! There is less likelyhood they'd be environmentally concious if they'd been immersed in collecting stamps or classic cars. Interesting plants such as the Cactaceae, Droseraceae, Nepenthaceae, Sarraceniaceae, may have been overcollected in the past (and may still be) But hobbyists now support their preservation and give them some "voice", even if that voice is ultimately drowned out by the bulldozers. Rare species in the Cyperaceae, Plantaginaceae, Phytolaccaceae, etc... may go extinct with few people noticing, and without representitives in cultivation. Michael ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Mon, 09 Jan 95 12:43 EST Subject: Call for a tissue culture FAQ There has been a lot of discussion of tissue culture here, but I'm certain that not everyone on the list has a full understanding of it. Perhaps one of the experts could post a short informative description of the tissue culture process? Michael ################### From: barry@mips3.as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 11:29:17 -0700 Subject: Data requests and Orbs >bringing up a few issues that I thought needed to be addressed. I >think that what folks are doing with regards to in vitro Nepenthes is >good, but I think that for the novices on the list (and others) that >the TC folks should give us more data! And why aren't more of them >speaking out? Regarding requests for more data with plants, I second that! WHENEVER I have location data for a plant I save it jealously! Sometimes location information is critically useful in keying a plant. For example, I have been trying to cross-pollinate African clones of _U.livida_ with a Mexican clone (the range of _U.livida_ is very strange). For a genus like _Nepenthes_, information such as elevation, habit, and local conditions would be very useful---not only for the taxonomist but also the horticulturist. Regarding those Pings with orbs... >I checked them last night, and one appears to be forming a scape >separate from the "orbs", which have expanded in size. They're Other than leaves, the only normal thing to appear in the rosette center are flowers. Get ready to key them out! Use Don Schnell's book since they are almost certainly N.American plants, and probably _P.caerulea_ at that since that's what PPauls usually sells. Barry ################### From: Christopher Waldrop Date: Mon, 09 Jan 1995 13:00:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Data requests and Orbs > Other than leaves, the only normal thing to appear in the rosette center > are flowers. Get ready to key them out! Use Don Schnell's book since they > are almost certainly N.American plants, and probably _P.caerulea_ at that > since that's what PPauls usually sells. Based on the size, leaf shape, etc. on these, I figured that's what they were, but I didn't want to take a chance on IDing a ping with something more substantial. That leads me to another question, though. What sort of conditions does _P.caerulea_ require? I've been keeping them quite warm under fluorescent lights for most of the winter; I hope I haven't kept them from going into dormancy. Could these reddish leaf formations at the center be winter rosettes? ################### From: Joachim Nerz Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 20:50:20 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: CP digest 215 Dear Ron, I have also the experience, that plants out of Vitro-cultivation still have a good portion of e.g. BAP in storage. BAP is a very stabile synthetic hormone compared to Kinetin, which is degraded much more quickly! Bye Joe N. ################### From: Alexander Salomon Date: Mon, 09 Jan 95 14:42:34 EST Subject: MORE IN VITRO stuff The argument regarding tissue culture and the preservation of a species has been an enlightening one. I only hope that it can remain amicable and be car- ied out on a professional/scientific level rather than becoming overly per- sonal. Regardless of whether TC can save a species endangered by loss of hab- itat, it can help save species endangered by overcollecting. I think that the example of N. rajah is a good case in point. It exists in a so-called protect- ed habitat and is "protected by CITES restrictions. Because of its rarity, poachers are willing to risk a lot to obtain a specimen from the wild. So- called "collectors" are willing to pay a lot as well. By increasing the supply of the plant through tissue culture and other forms of propagation, the price should fall and demand for wild collected specimens may drop. With falling prices, the risks of poaching may eventually outweigh the possible rewards. Imagine if we had the potential to tissue culture ivory or rhino horn. These animals might still be threatened by loss of habitat but they would still be better off without a price on their heads. I think that with TC, we have an unbelievable chance to make a difference. I know Ron did a lot of work with VFTs in NC. I go to the grocery store and see VFTs of the disposable variety and see on a lot of tags that they were grown by TC. It's nice to know that each one of those specimens represents one less victim of the poacher. I'm not naive, but I do feel that any little contribution helps. If Andreas and Uwe want to make a little money too, thats perfectly fine. If they are successful enough, maybe their costs will go down and they will be able to increase production further. I wish them luck. -alex ################### From: Joachim Nerz Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 21:30:43 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: In vitro Nepenthes and their respective data, etc. Dear Ron, I agree with you, that from single clones, which are In Vitro grown, we cannot save the genome, so we should try to save several clones and indicate it, to be sure, to beware all the different clones in cultivation and not end in just a single, maybe quickly growing clone. E.g. from N. ephippiata we have sown I think several dozens to some hundred clones from different plants (by the way, one plant can get an enormous amount of seed compared to other species). In it's original habitat I think there are growing several hundred, maybe about thousand plants, I don't know really, but the habitat is quite large and the population is very homogen; I just want to say, that it should be enough material now, to keep a good variability in cultivation, e.g. to get later on a new population in nature. I think, that the genome of several of the endangered species is quite homogen, just think at N. rajah or N. villosa, which propagate themself in nature mostly vegetative by rhizomes; just a tiny tiny percentage of the seed will get ever a mature plant. But I am sorry, I fear that we will not be able, to introduce culture grown plants back into natural habitats, because in some years you won't find anymore natural habitats of several species. It is sad, but just have a look to such regions like the limestone-mountains in E-Kalimantan: There have been a lot of interesting Nepenthes-habitats, but they have burnt down (nearly all of them) but they have been burnt down, before anybody could explore it's vegetation. But from Kew I have read a paper, where they mentioned, that they want to reintroduce Ex-Vitro N. pervillei back to their natural habitats. I do not know, how it has gone on, but I wish them much success. The same with D. regia, where in nature just two populations with less than 100 or 200 plants are known; here tries Thomas Carow to reintroduce some Ex-Vitro-plants to its natural habitat. In such cases it is a good thing and legitime, but please don't try to bring species to a totally different habitat; e.g. never introduce Nepenthes-populations in S-America; you will disturbe it's natural balance. Labelling: It is quite important, but as Andreas mentioned, the locality (mountains or sth. like that is enough). There are so many slightly different populations of one specie, which are for the knowledge of evolution of the species enormous important. So long Joe N. ################### From: EBGADM01@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU (Clinton Morse - EEB Greenhouse Manager) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 1995 15:35:38 -0400 Subject: re: TC thread Hello all, Firstly I am in favor of a CP FAQ regarding tissue culture and am frankly quite amazed to see so many 'hobbyists' with laminar hoods and all the related gear. I have not done any TC since I was in college but periodically think about trying ita again.. One question regarding the current thread though... Are most of you raising seedlings in vitro (similar to orchids) or are any of you doing asexual meristem culture? I noticed (and saved) the brief list of successful media combinations but it was not clear whether these were for seed or meristem cultures (maybe both?) Thanks for clearing this up for me... Clint... ---------------------------------------------- Clinton Morse - Greenhouse Manager Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology 75 North Eagleville Rd., Box U-42 University of Connecticut, Storrs CT 06269 E-Mail to: ebgadm01@uconnvm.uconn.edu WWW Server: http://florawww.eeb.uconn.edu/ ---------------------------------------------- ################### From: Joachim Nerz Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 22:02:49 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff Hello Michael, I think we should stop now this crazy and childy discussion; but just some more comments: I and I think all of my friends don't grow their plants because of commercial interests, but because of our own pleasure; We like to see how our plants are growing and we like to find out new ways to propagate them, what was before impossible; it's like a drug. So, you are right, it is my own pleasure, if I grow my In Vitro-plants; if I would like to get rich, I would do another business, believe me; it's just hobby; and if somebody buys the plants for the black-market prices (I think I know what you mean; I think it cannot be myself, because yet I don't sell anything), it's also your own pleasure, nobody forces you to do it! They are no sunflowers, also in Vitro most of them need a quite long time to grow and to divide ...., so you can't expect huge plants of species, which have been before some years nearly unknown. I agree with you, that you never will conserve the specie and the habitat, but at least a by-product of the In Vitro propagation is to hinder that a lot of people reintroduce species in cultivation, just because they are not available to them. And now still one more last point: What's wrong, to give species a name, when they are still undescribed? It makes communication about species (which have a name now) much easier and hinder confusion like species xxx and everybody get it's own preliminary name for it! In the last years, e.g. most of the Nepenthes species have been described from herbar-material, so there shouldn't be commercial interest at it, you don't think so? Or can you tell me, where I can buy Nepenthes borneensis? O.k., but let's stop now our flames; peace Joe N. ################### From: Joachim Nerz Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 22:35:07 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: re: TC thread Dear Clinton, e.g. in tuberous Drosera and Heliamphora I have tried successfully to establish meristematic or let's better say living plant-material In Vitro; the same with e.g. Pinguicula and Sarracenia. But many people tried to establish Nepenthes from meristem, but just with few success, indeed there is a rumour, that some commercial laboratories should be able to do it, who knows! Anyway, at moment it looks like we still don't have a good method to establish Nepenthes from meristems. Joe N. On Mon, 9 Jan 1995, Clinton Morse - EEB Greenhouse Manager wrote: > Hello all, Firstly I am in favor of a CP FAQ regarding tissue culture and am > frankly quite amazed to see so many 'hobbyists' with laminar hoods and all > the related gear. I have not done any TC since I was in college but > periodically think about trying ita again.. > One question regarding the current thread though... Are most of you raising > seedlings in vitro (similar to orchids) or are any of you doing asexual > meristem culture? I noticed (and saved) the brief list of successful media > combinations but it was not clear whether these were for seed or meristem > cultures (maybe both?) Thanks for clearing this up for me... Clint... > ---------------------------------------------- > Clinton Morse - Greenhouse Manager > Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology > 75 North Eagleville Rd., Box U-42 > University of Connecticut, Storrs CT 06269 > E-Mail to: ebgadm01@uconnvm.uconn.edu > WWW Server: http://florawww.eeb.uconn.edu/ > ---------------------------------------------- > > ################### From: Michael Livingston Date: Mon, 9 Jan 95 16:27:42 PST Subject: Hello and Sundews Hello everyone, I just subscribed here and want to both introduce myself and ask a question. I have held a passing fancy for carnivorous plants for some time now, sparked by an installment of "Nature" on PBS dedicated to the subject. I am particularly interested in sundews, they seem to be very elegant hunters. Anyway, my interest in sundews has come to the forefront lately for a very practical reason. I have just opened an office for my business and one or more of the gift plants I received had some fruit flys or some such creature on it and now I have TONS of them. Rather than fill the rooms with chemicals to eradicate the beasts I thought a couple of well placed sundews would be not only a better solution but a great excuse to learn more about the plants and their cousins. Can anyone tell me where I could locate one or more flavors of sundew at this chilly time of the year (I am in the North East), and I very much welcome advice regarding their care as well as good reading material, etc. Thanks! M ################### From: "Warrington, Pat" Date: Mon, 09 Jan 1995 13:28:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Zealand CP I will be travelling to New Zealand in March/95. For the first 3 weeks I will be travelling around the North Island in a camper van. Does anyone have suggestions of good cp sites to visit and what I will find there. The last week I will be in Christchurch on the South Island and can only visit nearby sites briefly as I will be playing field hockey all day and partying most nights. Any requests? Thanks.-Pat ################### From: "Brian Obrien" Date: Mon, 9 Jan 95 16:36:53 CST Subject: tissue culture & seed questions With regard to Clinton Morse's question: >One question regarding the current thread though... Are most of you raising >seedlings in vitro (similar to orchids) or are any of you doing asexual >meristem culture? When `tissue culture' has been referred to in the recent posts, I have assumed that these were meristem cultures - but I've probably been predisposed to thinking that through orchid growing. If the cultures are not from meristems, which type of tissue is used, and which is the best, for various types of cp's? I am also curious as well about the possibility of in vitro raising of cp's from seed. Can any advantages be realized by doing this, compared to germination in ordinary media? Brian -- bobrien@gac.edu Brian A. O'Brien, Department of Chemistry, Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, Minnesota 56082 U.S.A. tel. (507)933-7310 fax (507)933-7041 ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Mon, 09 Jan 1995 15:32:33 -0800 Subject: New Zealand CP > Date: Mon, 09 Jan 1995 13:28:00 -0800 (PST) > From: "Warrington, Pat" > To: carnivores contribute I will be travelling to New Zealand in March/95. For the first 3 weeks I will be travelling around the North Island in a camper van. Does anyone have suggestions of good cp sites to visit and what I will find there. The last week I will be in Christchurch on the South Island and can only visit nearby sites briefly as I will be playing field hockey all day and partying most nights. Any requests? Thanks.-Pat ################### From: Kyle Williams Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 15:44:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanks (TC of Drosera) I would like to thank everyone who helped me out with information on tissue culturing Drosera. As I said in my first letter I'm an undergraduate student majoring in Ornamental Horticulture and this is my first TC class. Since the class just started last week I don't understand a lot of the information I got but fortunately my teacher looked it over for me and told me what to do. My hope is that by the end of the class I'll be able to give out the kind of information to others that you people have given me. Thanks again, Kyle Williams Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, Ca. P.S. I would still appreciate any other information anyone would have on this subject. ################### From: "Philip F. Wight" Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 17:19:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff To Michael, and the others who are perpetuating this senseless diatrabe against the TC people here, you should observe that the vast majority of the users of this forum have been standing by patiently waiting for your petulance to end, but our patience is wearing thin. Your thinly disguised envy at not having these plants is clearly observable, like a massive chip on your shoulder. If we all take up a collection and buy you a N. Raja will you kindly cease this prattle? Cheers, Phil ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 08:50:26 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: We can save the world (wa... > > Dear Andeas, > We have all been greatly amused and have learned a great deal from this > discussion. > Please continue. We will all have questions enough when our seeds start to > emerge. > Becky > Michael- It is always a bad idea to point at someone else. Chances are you > have no idea what this person is doing personally either for the rain forest, > or Chechnea. > Becky, it was not me who asked the question "what did you do to save the rain forest". In return I asked "what do you do to save the world" for the same reasons you are blaming me. (yepp not actually blaming / do not find the right word this early). Bye. Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 09:25:26 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff > > To Michael, and the others who are perpetuating this senseless diatrabe > against the TC people here, you should observe that the vast majority of > the users of this forum have been standing by patiently waiting for your > petulance to end, but our patience is wearing thin. To Phil, if it bothers you just logout. :-) I am always astonished to find people who are not chicken enough to talk for themselves but have to declare themselves the leader of a large pack. You sound ridiculous. You do not bother to read my posts otherwise you would have noticed that my postings are not a crusade against people doing tissue culture but against their alleged belief (which proved to be wrong in the mean- while) to be the safers of the rainforests by doing this. Clear enough ? Again if you do not like this threat just move your butt to where you feel safe. Perhaps take your girlfriend out to cinema for a chance to get a grip on yourself again. :-) > > Your thinly disguised envy at not having these plants is clearly > observable, like a massive chip on your shoulder. > If we all take up a > collection and buy you a N. Raja will you kindly cease this prattle? You clearly unveil the limited categories of your mind: I do not want to blame you for it. It's your limited mind that disables you to track back the reasons and arguments behind my postings. If you see collecting plants as the only and utmost destination in life you probably won't find any better way to piss around here. Congratu- lations! > > Cheers, > Phil > Best wishes, Michael P.S.: For the future, you, and your vast majority of this group: Discover the unknown commands of your mail-reader, now! Use 'd' for delete. (for weenies only!) ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 09:39:52 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff > > > Hello Michael, Hi Joe, > > I think we should stop now this crazy and childy discussion; Can't be that crazy and childish that you bother to give some more comments. :-) > > but just some more comments: (...) I deleted them since we came quite close with our opinions during the last days. > > And now still one more last point: > What's wrong, to give species a name, when they are still undescribed? Nothing. That's your field of research. Just check out if you get a permission from Jan. (That could save some trouble in your research work.) :-) > peace > > Joe N. Peace! ..Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 09 Jan 1995 23:45:00 +0200 Subject: Re: Tissue Culture of Drosera > getting plant material sterile:Species like D. > binata or D. capensis often produce flower > stalks and it is easier getting these parts > sterile, because the tissue is not as soft as > leaves. When sterile planted, the stalks will > soon produce buds. If you start from flower stalks I d use the part of the stalks containing flower buds in order to have axilliary buds to start from. Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 00:47:00 +0200 Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff > > Dear Michael, > > Nobody believes that "in vitro culture saves > > the rain forest". > we are making progress! :-) Who thinks/thought that in vitro culture saves the rain forest? > > species out there in the jungle (i.e. the > > small areas left), but I disagree if you > > claim these will be discovered and named > > because somebody wants to create a new market > > with tissue cultered plants. > No, but it is welcomed opportunity to be able > to sell them overpriced > in high numbers in a Where are these high numbers of plant buyers? > short time. That was my argument and in this > there is no difference to "Victorian plant > hunters" albeit with re- spect to the damage > caused to the environment. Who damages the environment? Through our travels Joachim, Heiko and myself never noticed that an ecosystem was dying because a fanatic Orchid or CP- lover had collected a few cpsules of seeds or in the more scientific case a few cuttings as herbarium specimens (type material). A non-commercial collection of seeds (and I regard the collection of some seeds as a start for in-vitro-propagation as non-commercial) can hardly do any damage to a population. > > There is a scientific interest in these with > > or without the possibility of TC. > > Undoubtedly! Well, Michael, I fear that "we re making progress";-) > > In my opinion it is better having these new > > species in vitro and making them available to > > the public than never knowing that these > > species exist at all or being already > > destroyed. > > Sure, as more or less 'artificial' artifacts > disembodied from their environment with no > realistic hope ever to be reestablished. So, > what is the value, anyway ? What is a species > without its ecosystem. A "cultivated" population can not replace the wild population but isn t human an "artificial artifact disembodied from their environment with no realistic hope ever to be reestablished" as well? All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 00:29:00 +0200 Subject: Re: CP digest 216 > albeit I doubt the potential of tissue culture > to preserve a species rather than to preserve > one particular gene-set, I believe this would > at least enforce competion. 'The right to > choose'. A _randomly_ chosen in vitro population of totally around 50 seedgrown clones of one local population of a species is better than nothing! And might soon reach the number of plants which are left in the wild if habitat destruction is not stopped. Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 01:31:00 +0200 Subject: Re: chimeras > This brings up an interesting question: if one > mixes cultures of male and female Nepenthes > tissues, or even of different species, is it > possible to produce a chimera possessing > tissues of both parents? Best to my knowledge, no one knows where the genes for the sex in Nepenthes are or how the sex is controlled at all. Also a chimera can only be produced if you create a more or less homogeneous mix of cells which means that you would need callus cultures. Unfortunately nobody I know has managed to achieve somatic embryogenesis (regeneration of plants from callus) in case of Nepenthes so far....but we re working on it.....:-) All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 00:58:00 +0200 Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff DEar Bob, you wrote: > >From my understanding, however, tissue > >culture, although it produces a > high degree of uniformity, is not *completely* > "fool-proof" in producing all clones; some > degree of mutation does occur. Unfortunately that s true. However it s in the hand of the propagator to minimize this risk. In former times e.g. orchids were propagated in enormous amounts via callus culture. People did not realize that such a callus (in fact some kind of a plant-tumor) gives rise to some kind of micro-evolution on a cellular level. That means the fastest growing cells (often due to mutations!) have an advantage over slower (non mutated cells) and sooner or later overgrow the culture. The same happens in human cancer by the way, where cells collect mutations in a similar fashion. Modern propagation setups mostly do not go via callus but via axillar branching. This lowers the output of plants but dramatically reduces the danger of introducing mutations. Another means of keeping mutations low are slow growth cultures of stock material which is set aside and kept on minimal medium to keep growth (=> and mutation rate) as low as possible. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 01:42:00 +0200 Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff Dear Michael, you wrote: > and who takes care about all those plants which > are less 'interesting'. I am mean it's soon > time to enlargen our hoods for all these ferns, > mosses, and other green life forms. Is our > tissue culture fraction already working on it. > Secret laboratories (not supported!) around! > :-) There are many people dealing with orchids, bromeliads, ferns,......, (in fact the CPers are a tiny minority among plant lovers) who all (can) do their part of the work. Nobody can play different games at the same time but everybody can help with the work he/she is best at. We ve chosen CP s. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 01:33:00 +0200 Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff > I mind if things here get 'too commercial'. As I already mentioned I completely accept being blamed for having posted offers or even my price list in one case and will not do so again. > I > do not mind references to sources or people > offering their stuff for trade or sale. Parti- > cular, if astronomical 'black market' prices > are requested. Sorry, but though some people tried to explain you about the expenses you need to start a successful lab this seems to be beyond your understanding. As I mentioned a single laminar flow hood is as expensive as a car (believe it or not...). Your style of writing e.g. of black market prices is an insulting offence and it s beyond my understanding why you do this. I cannot remember having attacked you personally before you started _your_ "discussion" against some people including myself. Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 01:08:00 +0200 Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff Dear James, you wrote: > I do not believe that my own personal > collection of plants ensures the survival of a > species, but there is a chance that as a group, > hobbyists and professional growers will > maintain a genetically diverse collection of > material. Tissue culture and a coordinated > breeding program among growers would both be > valuable tools. That s exactly what a worldwide group of enthusiasts like this could reach. Due to communication facilities such as internet a quick exchange of pollen ("Dating and Mating!" Tom, I very much like your suggestion in the latest issue of CPN!) is possible and a worldwide population of a particular species which is genetically refreshed by such means has a chance to survive at least as an image of the extinct wild population. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 01:28:00 +0200 Subject: Re: We can save the world (was RE: IN VITRO stuff) Dear Brian, you wrote: > In addition, it bothers me not at all for > persons who are propagating rare plants to make > some money from it, at least to offset some of > the expense for materials, equipment, and time. > I'm glad to see their talents used in such a > manner. Perhaps free plants for all could be > the goal within some horticultural Nirvana, but > I don't think that we're particularly close to > that situation at this point in history. We are not so far away indeed: Some years ago fanatic collectors paid thousands of $ to criminals who robbed N. rajah plants and others from the wild solely for sale. Best to my knowledge the first tissue cultured N. rajah plants came up selling around $ 200. Within a few years the prices dropped to around $ 40. Where is the limit? In Germany meanwhile you can find Nepenthes and Heliamphora plants in garden centers and with the time of a particular species in vitro the the propagators experience grows on how to propagate it best and most efficient. Nepenthes rajah in the garden center? I d be glad being able to propagate it that efficiently one day and getting a large scale order by a large nursery.... All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 02:01:00 +0200 Subject: Re: Internet marketing Dear Michael, you wrote: > I have got a slightly different opinion about > this: IMO if tiny tissue cultured plants are > sold for prices over say over $100 I strongly > believe something is wrong. I cannot believe that somebody ever forced you to buy a plant you regarded as too small or too expensive. As Joachim already mentioned before, tissue culture gear is very very expensive. You cannot buy it in the shop around the corner and you can hardly build it yourself. I would write my testament before running a hommade autoclave and I would not expose a important stock culture to the atmosphere of a hommade laminar flow hood. In Germany a laminar flow hood for example sells at prices which are in the dimension of a small unused car. I could not afford doing the whole tissue cultutre stuff without selling a plant. Further these "tiny tissue cultured plants" often took years of screening to find a way to propagate them at all. What about the cost for light, heating, media and so one? > Right, and from my experience these "great" > people are most of the time enthusiastic > hobbyists who *do not rob* their friends. Whom are you fighting against? Why? Do you think offending people by insulting them helps to underline your arguments? I do not. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 01:38:00 +0200 Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff > seldom plant. Tissue culture is not the topic > here. It just shortens turn-around times, i.e. > the time until the species is readily > available. Thus, it is nothing more than a > production technique. That s wrong without any doubt: Tissue culture is the _only_ _way_ to propagate many plants at all! (believe it or not...) > The point I make is that people are not hunting > for N.rajah (because it is readily available) > but others. The names change (very fast). Still > the problem has the same features as earlier. > In contrast to the past people now run to the > rain forrest collecting new species (naming > them thus creating a market and propagating > them in their own monetary interest believing > in the need to environmentally -> tissue > cultured satisfy the demand). Rarely have I heared or read such a bunch of nonsense.... Sorry, that s not my usual style of writing but.... > You know yourself that the genetic diversity is > not preserved by tissue culture. You also know > the market value of newly introduced species. So? In the wild very likely less than 20 clones of N. clipeata exist anymore. Why aren t 20 tissue culture clones worth the effort. The "market value" you re talking about is an illusion. In your vision some persons make big money by selling millions of rare Nepenthes. But, where are the people who buy these enormous amounts of plants??? Nowhere! The market is so small that the "black market prices" (as you prefer to call them) would cover not much more than the investments and time for propagation and screening if you would seriously calculate. > What I accuse is the hypocracy to say "we are > doing tissue culture to save the rain forrest" > instead of saying "yes they have a market value > and that is why I am propagating them for my > own financial benefit". If this is in a > commercial scale the internet is the wrong > place to market it. I am not talking about > 'uncosts'. I am talking about plants little > tiny bastards (tissue cultured 2cm in height) > offered for $50 and more. This is not the > hobbyist propagating them in his/her hood > (during the time when other's are going out > with their girlfriends) for his/her fun but an > entrepreneur with the aim to make money. ??? > See above. You do not save the genetic > diversity by tissue culture of one (not even > two male/female) plant. Who is talking of one or two plants? Usually in case of more restricted or rare plants I and all the other tissue culture people I know try to keep around 10 clones which easily adds up to 50 or more well separated clones worldwide! This might unfortunately probably soon be more than the rest of clones which are left in the wild in some cases. > So, tell me please, what do you do against the > global warming, the war in Chechnia, ... What are you doing against it??? > What does N.xxxx help us in the tube if the > forrests are gone ? It is hypocritical to say > plant collectors do any good to the nature by > ha- ving the plants in their greenhouses. It is > for their own fun. What does the lack of N.xxxx help us if the forests are gone? Well, sit back and relax, watching the biodiversity fade away if you prefer the role of an observer. I for my case try to help at least the group of plants I love most and these are Nepenthes. All the best and _happy_ _observing_ Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:02:35 +0200 (EET) Subject: Paranoia > > > I mind if things here get 'too commercial'. > > As I already mentioned I completely accept being blamed for having posted > offers or even my price list in one case and will not do so again. You are paronoid to get offended by the above. Mind the 'if'. It is conditional. > > > I > > do not mind references to sources or people > > offering their stuff for trade or sale. Parti- > > cular, if astronomical 'black market' prices > > are requested. > > Sorry, but though some people tried to explain you about the expenses you > need to start a successful lab this seems to be beyond your understanding. > As I mentioned a single laminar flow hood is as expensive as a car > (believe it or not...). Your style of writing e.g. of black market prices > is an insulting offence and it s beyond my understanding why you do this. Paranoia: You may have high expenses. Granted. You plants may be expen- sive, perhaps justified. If you get insulted by "black market prices" please read "astronomical prices". If this is too strong please just read "high prices". It does not change my point. > I cannot remember having attacked you personally before you started _your_ > "discussion" against some people including myself. I do not remember to have you attacked personally. I made my statements very general with no intention to insult anybody. ..Michael ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:24:10 +0200 (EET) Subject: Stop it now! > > > seldom plant. Tissue culture is not the topic > > here. It just shortens turn-around times, i.e. > > the time until the species is readily > > available. Thus, it is nothing more than a > > production technique. > > That s wrong without any doubt: > Tissue culture is the _only_ _way_ to propagate many plants at all! > (believe it or not...) It is still a production technique. Is this whole stuff something touchy for your professional honour. Get realistic. Perhaps it is the only one. It is still a production technique. > > > The point I make is that people are not hunting > > for N.rajah (because it is readily available) > > but others. The names change (very fast). Still > > the problem has the same features as earlier. > > In contrast to the past people now run to the > > rain forrest collecting new species (naming > > them thus creating a market and propagating > > them in their own monetary interest believing > > in the need to environmentally -> tissue > > cultured satisfy the demand). > > Rarely have I heared or read such a bunch of nonsense.... > Sorry, that s not my usual style of writing but.... Admittedly, a bit far strechted. However, ... Make your point. There are rare species out there. There are people willing to pay a lot of money to get them. There are people willing/able to propagate them. Some of these people take a lot of money for them. My point is that these people should calm down a little to realize that what they are doing is aside saving the rain forest (you convinced me) is partially business (ok, you have to get your expenses back). I have no problem with you doing business. But, I would (<- mind the conjunctive here) mind if (<- conditional) this (<- no personal insult, Andreas) gets here too (<- it's ok at the current level for me) commercial. This is my point. Don't get paranoid about it. Thanks and bye, Michael P.S.: I suggest to continue this discussion by personal mail. IMO it gets too off-topic. My point is that aside the scien- tific value to have an extinct species in a green house there is *no* environmental benefit. We agree in the point that preservation must be done on the ecosystem level. Andreas, did you ever think about your eco-balance in pre- serving endangered N. species. Don't pose yourself as a saint. Be realistic it's your/our hobby/profession and we love it and in our dreams we save the rain forests... ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:34:22 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: Internet marketing Dear Andreas, your absolutely unwilling to take position to my points. I strongly suggest you to further discuss this by private mail. You paranoia drives you absolutely crazy. Howoften do I have to say that I do not intend to offend/insult you ? However you seem to be very touchy and I assume you got up badly this morning. Take it easy! > > Dear Michael, > > you wrote: > > > I have got a slightly different opinion about > > this: IMO if tiny tissue cultured plants are > > sold for prices over say over $100 I strongly > > believe something is wrong. > > I cannot believe that somebody ever forced you to buy a plant you regarded > as too small or too expensive. How do you get the idea I feel that somebody forced me to buy over- priced plants. Crap talking! Again: Something is wrong (in my opinion) if plants are sold for say $100 for a bunch of cells. Many people disagree that is why there is a market and that is why people were hunting plants and animals in earlier times. Luckily we have tissue culture now. BTW: travelling to and collecting plants from nature is also quite expensive. (no offense intended) (stuff about expensive tissue culture deleted). > > > Right, and from my experience these "great" > > people are most of the time enthusiastic > > hobbyists who *do not rob* their friends. > > Whom are you fighting against? IMO: This is not a fight for me. Perhaps in your paranoia. > Why? What, why ? > Do you think offending people by insulting them helps to underline your > arguments? Where, when, whom ? ..Michael ################### From: Magnus.Thoren@planteco.lu.se Date: Tue, 10 Jan 95 10:45:35 +0100 Subject: Discussions If you want to have a discussion could you please post one reply at the time and not ten. It clogs my mail and disturbs my mailprogram. It also takes some time to delete a mail (at least with my mailprogram). Thanks :-) Magnus Thor`n Plantecology, Department of Ecology, Lund University Ekologihuset, S-223 62 Lund, Sweden Magnus.Thoren@planteco.lu.se "S{ll {r den som har till r{ttesn|re att man b|r nog t{nka efter f|re" ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 10:50:40 +0100 Subject: you want flames? Friends! > Your thinly disguised envy at not having these plants is clearly > observable, like a massive chip on your shoulder. > If we all take up a > collection and buy you a N. Raja will you kindly cease this prattle? (...) >You clearly unveil the limited categories of your mind: I do not >want to blame you for it. (...) >Rarely have I heared or read such a bunch of nonsense.... (...rest deleted for sake of politeness) Please, gentlemen. "O Freunde, nicht diese Worte!" At this point, I think it is time to praise our faithful far-northern correspondent Michael (H.) a bit for his contributions. I really appreciate your help with _P.villosa_ (which has made its way to California and Japan, already; well, this does not save the rain-forest either, but...), and _Euphrasia_ (and yes, I *am* happy I did not need to pay for it!). I do understand your attitudes towards free exchange, and I do share a lot of them. Unfortunately, some growers (especially those who have invested some time, $$, and efforts in propagation) are not content with the rather immaterial satisfaction of having helped a fellow enthusiast. But I fear we cannot change this in the near future (we should not wait for the wiser race; life is too short...). SUMMA: We may not agree completely, but we have still much more in common than some recent messages would reveal. Remember this is not flame_each_other_cp@opus.hpl.hp.com! On another subject: >Just check out if you get a permission from Jan. (That could save some >trouble in your research work.) :-) What do you think should I have to permit? This does not sound like liberty of research and science, does it? It is not my intention to cause trouble for anyone. Please tell me if I do. In this case, I will try to change it. (Yes, I have realized the ":-)") Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 12:15:26 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: you want flames? > > Friends! > I loved your post ! > > > >Just check out if you get a permission from Jan. (That could save > >some trouble in your research work.) :-) > > > What do you think should I have to permit? This does not sound like > liberty of research and science, does it? It is not my intention to > cause trouble for anyone. Please tell me if I do. In this case, I > will try to change it. (Yes, I have realized the ":-)") Nichts fuer ungut! I do not start a thread about ethics in science here. :-) > > Kind regards > Jan > Herewith, I declare to refrain from further post on this topic for the time being, i.e. I have lunch now. Happiness, love, and peace, Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: thacker@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 03:43:38 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: you want flames? Please stop this flame crap. I like this listserver, but I am going to unsubscribe real soon if all I get is this inane back and forth flaming. Sheesh, a couple weeks ago we all had the Christmas spirit, and the posts seemed informative and supportive of each other. Now it's all this terrible flaming crap that I delete without reading...now I seem to delete just about every message that appears. What happened to all the fun stuff...like that great trip to look for carnivores in SE Asia? C'mon, tell me about the carnivores you have seen or are growing, not about what a jerk another person on this list is. Don. ################### From: James Powell Date: Tue, 10 Jan 95 08:35:46 -0500 Subject: N. rajah Well, if you want to hear about success with plants instead of flames, I have a Nepenthes rajah that I purchased last summer that is growing like a weed. For months, it would not produce a pitcher. Then last summer there was a long discussion about a product called superthrive. At first I was wary of over using it, but I got frustrated watching small pitchers form at the end of the leaves that never opened, so I cleaned my cool climate plant aquarium in my basement and replaced the somewhat stagnant water it contained with a mix of 5 drops of superthrive to a gallon of distilled water. Just as before, my plants stood in perhaps two centimeters of water. Within weeks I had one open pitcher and now I have three. I tried to feed a tiny fly to the first pitcher using a syringe. I put the fly on the rim, and squirted a small amount of water to push the fly in - well of course I washed the fly away and never succeeded in feeding the poor thing. The first pitcher now has a reddish-maroon color. The plant also now has two growth points. I figured I would have killed the plant by now but now I'm cautiously optimistic that I may be able to raise it to maturity someday. I remember the first time I saw a N. rajah in Kurata's book and wondered if I'd ever even see a real live plant, now I am watching week by week as this small, and to me unidentifiable plant I received last summer exhibits more and more of the characteristics of that plant I dreamed of seeing so long ago. Just my idea of fun... ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 16:30:07 +0200 (EET) Subject: Superthrive (was N. rajah) Hi, I noticed a similar effect. I just started to use it. However, some N.cuttings I had, were starting to grow vigorously afterwards. However, I am careful to attribute this to the use of superthrive. They might just have developed roots. However, nice to see them pitchering. Pekka: Interested ? ..Michael ################### From: telenet!unicorn!dkpurks@uunet.uu.net (David K. Purks) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 10:21:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: posting price lists Andreas wrote: > As I already mentioned I completely accept being blamed for having posted > offers or even my price list in one case and will not do so again. As I told him privately, personally I think he should continue to post his offers, as should others. One of the primary reasons that commercial postings are frowned upon in newsgroups is because of the way the groups are distributed around the net to everyone. Commercial use of internet is in no way prohibited - look at the number of companies that use the net to distibute software to the customers or have ads out there on WEB pages, etc., etc..... **BUT** this is a mailing list, not a newgroup. We have all subscribed to the service and are here by choice. To my mind that means that we have the right to decide what's right and what's not (ignoring for the moment the fact that hpl is "donating" the services of their hardware for our listserver and WWW). If it wasn't for this this newgroup and the posts that people have made here, I wouln't have the collection of plants that I do now. In most cases, I haven't paid much more than for postage, but I have bought some plants for very reasonable prices too - something I could not have done locally (I have yet to find a single source of plants local to me) and buying mail order is a gamble I haven't gotten around to yet. And I will continue to do so in the future. Andreas (and others) - I can understand your unwillingness to post your lists of available plants to the general community, especially in light of the recent message exchange. I hope that you will at least send such lists to Rick so that they can be accessed through the listserver (and hopefully through the online service). I know that most of us are very interested in what you have to offer. Dave ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 16:21:18 +0100 Subject: New Pinguicula! Another new one has shown up! M.CHEEK (hi Martin! Congratulations on this one!), KEW BULL.49(4):813 (1994) COMMENT: _Pinguicula greenwoodii_ is described as new. It is related to _P.jackii_ (bilabiate corolla, without palate, membranous, monomorphic leaves), and it occurs in a "dripping, shaded limestone cliff in wet montane tropical forest, 1550 m alt., about 30 km from the sea" in "Oaxaca, Icatepec road, Mexico". It differs from _P.j._ by the much narrower corolla, and the longer and narrower spur. In this respect (long spur), another species comes to mind, viz. _P.imitatrix_ which also has been collected in Oaxaca, but this seems to differ in other details & in the habitat. Kind regards Jan ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:35:00 -0500 Subject: Re: We can save the world (wa... Michael And I am waterlogged this morning. No, it wasn't blame. I felt it was rude. Becky ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:46:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Internet marketing Andreas Well, some of us actually know people who do have home made microculture gear. An autoclave you will find in the kitchen, under pressure cooker. However, even with all the available parts, it will run a clever young man about $2000. Yeah, a used car. Then there is always the problem of space, because space is money too. While it is something you can set up in your kitchen, your significant others will not be amused. Becky ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:45:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Nepenthes and sell lists I appreciate the recent cease fire among discussants. The net is never good at imparting the writer's attitude, sometimes written words seem harsher than were intended. I would like to second the motion that sellers continue to post their sell, trade and give-away lists. I am very pleased to see these lists. For my own part, when I rarely have a few plants for give-away or sale I will post a notice to the group. On a final note, I haven't seen too much discussion about plants that were received from Andreas or Uwe. For my part, among the Nepenthes I received, all but one are alive and gaining size (albeit a few faster than others). The one Nepenthes that did not survive succumbed within a day or two of arriving and was noted by the seller. Mine are all planted in live sphagnum or the original shipping soil, and are under twin florescents in a closed terrarium. The planting medium is kept moist at all times with perhaps a quarter inch or so of water covering the bottom of the terrarium. I also use Superthrive according to label instructions. In my experience, Superthrive definitely helps. Other than that, Florida is cold. It went down to 45F last night and only up to about 70 today! I know, I know, not cold for you guys, but my blood is now about as thin as a tropical Nepenthes. :) Tom in Fl ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 12:54:00 +0200 Subject: Nepenthes pollen Hello all, Within the next weeks I will have fresh N. dubia pollen available. Anyone interested please contact me. Does anybody have fresh pollen available now? - _Very_ _soon_ I ll have N. glabrata and N. dentata x glabrata flowering (buth female). Any pollen is welcome, but I need it really very soon.. Pollen storage: I tried different methods without success so far. However in recent times I also did not have luck using fresh pollen:-( So I can hardly say what went wrong. However recently I received some hints on how to improve storage technique and I m willing to continue doing experiments. Any pollen is welcome. Of cause any resulting seeds will be shared. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 11:26:00 +0200 Subject: Re: tissue culture & seed questions Dear Clinton and Brian, you wrote: > >One question regarding the current thread > >though... Are most of you raising seedlings in > >vitro (similar to orchids) or are any of you > >doing asexual meristem culture? Yet, most of the plants are introduced into the test tube from seeds. It s possible to meristem Sarracenia but in case of Nepenthes that s quite a problem and I only succeeded once out of many trials. Other people I know have made similar experience. Problem is that the meristem-region is highly contaminated by bacteria and fungi in case of Nepenthes but you need to sterilize very gently as this soft tissue is so delicate. The compromise is often hard to find. > > When `tissue culture' has been referred to in > the recent posts, I have assumed that these > were meristem cultures - but I've probably been > predisposed to thinking that through orchid > growing. If the cultures are not from > meristems, which type of tissue is used, and > which is the best, for various types of cp's? In case of Drosera or Pinguicula which regenerate from non-meristematic tissue, leaves or other tissue (e.g. flower stalks in Drosera) can also be used. It would be phantastic if it would be possible to regenerate e.g. Nepenthes from leaf tissue some day... . Think about plants like N. clipeata or dubia being widely available.... . All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: "Walter Greenwood" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 12:07:20 EST5EDT Subject: Re: New Pinguicula! > COMMENT: _Pinguicula greenwoodii_ is described as new. ... > > Kind regards > Jan I most humbly and graciously accept this profound honor! ;-) Seriously now, I *am* a bit curious as to the origin of the name. Sincerely, Walter Greenwood P.S.: If anyone ever does name a new species after your's truly, I hope it will be a curvacious Nepenthes with a full, red peristome and really BIG jugs! ################### From: Manny Lorenzo Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:20:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Inane Discussions Please, please carry on your discussions privately. They are neither interesting or meaningful. You are driving people like me away who are interested in the PLANTS and not all this mental self-abuse. Enough is enough... Manny Lorenzo Florida International University Division of Information Resource Management ################### From: Christopher Waldrop Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:16:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: CPN (Now that the shouting has died down...) I still haven't received my December issue of CPN. It has been published, right? I assume this is a postal service problem, but I'm not sure who to contact for the missing issue... --CW ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 18:19:43 +0100 Subject: Re: New Pinguicula! >(...)_P.imitatrix_ which also has been collected in Oaxaca Did this fool Jan really write Oaxaca? It was of course collected in Galeana! But Piedra Ancha is not too far from the Oaxaca border (cf. CASPERs map). Sorry for another inexcusable error. Jan ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 95 12:30 EST XSubject: Re: New Pinguicula! > > P.S.: If anyone ever does name a new species after your's truly, I > hope it will be a curvacious Nepenthes with a full, red peristome and > really BIG jugs! Um, I hope you are not anticipating trying any unlikely hybridization experiments... ;-) Michael ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 95 12:34 EST Subject: N. rajah > > Well, if you want to hear about success with plants instead of flames, I hav > Nepenthes rajah that I purchased last summer that is growing like a weed. F > months, it would not produce a pitcher. Then last summer there was a long > discussion about a product called superthrive. At first I was wary of over > using it, but I got frustrated watching small pitchers form at the end of th > leaves that never opened, so I cleaned my cool climate plant aquarium in my > basement and replaced the somewhat stagnant water it contained with a mix of > drops of superthrive to a gallon of distilled water. Just as before, my pla > stood in perhaps two centimeters of water. > James, do you know if your N. rajah came from TC? Did you get it still in the tube or had it been grown ex tubo a priori caveat emptor? (when you say it was growing like a weed I figured it had got big enough to move up to jungle rats and capybara... but if it is still not able to take solid flys then it sounds small enough to be a TC job.) Michael ################### From: Koning@ecsuc.ctstateu.edu (Ross Koning) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 12:59:17 -0500 Subject: Bye for now When the fire's too hot, get out of the kitchen. Good advice. I have enough grief in my life and don't need to wade through more in email. Bye all for now till it cools down around here! ross Ross Koning Internet: Koning@ecsuc.ctstateu.edu Biology Department Phone: (203)-465-5327 Eastern CT State University Fax: (203)-465-5213 Willimantic, CT 06226 USA ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 95 17:31:09 +0000 Subject: Re: RE Ping Study Group +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Terry Do you have a current address for the Ping study group and, if so, do you know when they last published a bulletin? Thanks and regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 95 17:51:40 +0000 Subject: Re: Introduction +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Magnus I only just read your mail! >Hello Everybody! >I have recently joined this list and are amazed >that there is such a huge interest in carnivorous >plants. My name is Magnus and I am a ph.d-student >in Plantecology in the Lund University in Sweden. >I work with Pinguicula alpina, P. villosa and P. >vulgaris in a subarctic environment (Abisko, >Sweden). The goal of my study is to describe >their resource use, investment in reproduction and >cost of reproduction. It's great to work with >Pinguicula, no stupid root system that gets in the >way and easy to fertilize just add a fly. >I have only done field experiment sofar but would >like to grow Pinguiculas in greenhouses in the >future. >Is there any books on growing Pinguiculas or >carnivorous plants in greenhouses? >I don't grow cp at home for the moment but will >start when I get time and a place to grow them. >See you >Magnus Thor`n >Department of Plantecology >Institute of Ecology >Lunds Univeristy >Ecology Building >S-223 62 Lund >Sweden I am very interested in Pinguicula and own the National Collection of Pinguicula in the UK. I have about 60 named species, forms, varieties, etc. and try to travel to coillect more. To my knowledge there are no books on Pinguicula. I am happy to let you know what I have learnt or to answer questions Equally, if you want particular plants I may be able to grow on spares so that I can mail them to you in warmer weather! I have been to Sweden (I have friends in Digital's Stockholm Office) and the Botanic Garden there has suggested it would fing P. villosa for me, but each time they try they apologise for failing! I have P. vulgaris but not the bicolor form. I do not have any Pings from named locations in Sweden. Obviously, if you have spare of any I would be interested in them in the future. However, my intention was to introduce myself and offer myself as a possible source of information and/or plants if it would be helpful to you. Regards Paul ################### From: barry@mips3.as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 13:06:23 -0700 Subject: Wisdom for the day >though. What sort of conditions does _P.caerulea_ require? I've been >keeping them quite warm under fluorescent lights for most of the >winter; I hope I haven't kept them from going into dormancy. Could >these reddish leaf formations at the center be winter rosettes? They are from the coastal plain of South Carolina. So they are looking for seasons, but not freezing conditions. During the winter my plants are exposed to temperatures about 30F colder than during the summer---that is they drop to around 40F at night. The growth slows, and the plant draws down slightly into the Sphagnum or sand. I suspect contractile roots. This species does not, however, form genuine winter rosettes. Look, wonder, and wait, I suppose. The highly esteemed CP grower Rob Maharajh once described this aspect of CPing as the ``Dreaded P-Word....patience.'' The inestimable Dr. Maharajh once told me, in reference to the high frequency with which a _D.binata_ clone he had sent would flower, ``Yep, that plant flowers faster than you can say _Drosera binata multifida extrema_!'' Such a man's suggestions should be heeded. Barry ################### From: telenet!unicorn!dkpurks@uunet.uu.net (David K. Purks) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 17:04:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: strange G.repens behavior A while back I acquired what appears to be a relatively unusual species of Genlisea (I won't say who to protect them from a flood of requests). The plant is G.repens 'Auyan Tepui'. When I got it, the leaves were green and there appeared to be subsurface traps present. I planted it in a 2.5 inch shallow pot in 50/50 sand/peat and put it in a tray of water with some Utrics. The G.repens didn't do appear to do anything for a few weeks, but now something rather strange has happened. The leaves have turned deep marroon and the number of them has been reduced. Poking around in the medium didn't turn up any traps but I did find a few green leaves hidden just under the surface of the medium. The other plants around this one seem to be doing well (except for one pot of U.calycifida which has had nearly all the surface leaves die while it appears to be growing well underground). The person I got this division from hasn't seen this behavior before and suggested that I pose the question to the net...has anyone else run into this before? Any suggestions are quite welcome! Thanks! Dave ################### From: greg.long@factory.com (Greg Long) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 95 15:49:00 -0500 Subject: IN VITRO stuff AW>As I already mentioned I completely accept being blamed for having AW>posted offers or even my price list in one case and will not do so AW>again. Andreas, Please do not do as you state in this message. As a newbie CP'er I know how difficult it can be to find info and plant sources. This mail list is like an oasis in a vast wasteland of information about CPs. I can not speak for others on the list but I enjoy posts about who has what plants, etc. I do not have a collection with which to trade specimens against, and must rely on the offerings of other established collectors and growers. I think as long as posts are done in the proper spirit it is not a problem. Personally I don't think any of the posts about plants available on this list have been inappropriate. I think the problem is that money is a dirty word on the internet. I think any intelligent person can tell the difference between plant offerings and announcements and the sale of incense on the CP mail list. I am a biomedical researcher and grow various animal tissues in culture, and know of the expenses and time involved in maintiaining cultures, although I have no experience with plant TC. Keep up the good work, PERSEVERE! --- . POW 1.1 0043 . Powerline Offline reader for Windows - New Windows OLR ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 08:23:09 +0930 Subject: TC but on another note While tissue culture is such a hot subject.... Has anyone produced any plants by anther culture? I left out the "haploid" because I wasn't sure if CP's come in different ploidy levels besides diploid. Anyone set me straight? Cheers Terry ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 10 Jan 1995 17:16:00 +0100 Subject: apology and my paranoia My paranoia: Dear Michael, you wrote: > You paranoia drives you absolutely crazy. > Howoften do I have to say that I do not intend > to offend/insult you ? > However you seem to be very touchy and I assume > you got up badly this morning. Take it easy! > IMO: This is not a fight for me. Perhaps in > your paranoia. Well, that s exactly the style (_and_ _for_ _my_ _touchy_ _taste_ _you_ _also_ _insulted_ _Phil_ _Wight_) of writing which I regard as an insult. Maybe I am touchy but this is a style of manners I m not used to at all and which I can hardly accept. Your choice of vocabulary in your reply to Phil s comment speaks for itself but not for you. Just for your information: Paranoia is currently dealt with as a special case of schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is known as a serious inheritable disease..... Well, maybe I m too touchy.... Apology: Hello all, Sorry to all of you who were bothered by this stupid flamewar which I seem to have started by making a plant offer on this list and which I feel at least being partly responsible for. May I get tortured if ever putting a plant offer into this list again. I tried to explain my points of view and noticed too late that it was not water but oil which I was pouring into a fire. For my case I m not willing to continue the whole "discussion" neither on this list, nor by private mails as it seems to be fruitless. I m glad that I was not the only person who regarded some statements which were made as insults and that I was not at all alone with my views. This gives me hope of not being paranoid;-) I m especially glad that at least a few little productive side discussions arose from the big rest of useless waste of internet resources. My last words in this matter: All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 10:49:14 +0930 Subject: RE: Ping Study Group Hi Paul, >Do you have a current address for the Ping study group and, if >so, do you know when they last published a bulletin? Yes I do, but it is at home and I am at work (much prefer if it was the other way around). Will post the said address to you tomorrow. The last bulletin was No. 5 I think and I got it about 2 months ago. Cheers Terry ################### From: Bob Beer Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 17:30:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: apology and my paranoia A suggestion: Might it be a good idea to take such stuff to private email? I have no business telling anyone what to think of someone else, and how to behave in private, so do what you want in private. But the cp group is *really* not the place for private insult battles / flamewars / snarkfests, and I am truly uninterested in reading it here. I don't care about these disagreements or if someone meant to insult or not, or if someone is paranoid. It is *not* my battle, it is not the battle of most of us, and it really shouldn't be broadcast all over the world. ============================================================================== | Bob Beer | "A troubled mind is a trouble maker." | | bbeer@u.washington.edu | - Edna St. Vincent Millay | ============================================================================== ################### From: "Robert L. Briggs" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 20:27:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Discussions Once Upon a time, there was a Carnivorous plant newslist where anyone could go to find interesting conversations and to learn about their favorite hobby... ============================= Robert L. Briggs rbriggs@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us ============================= ################### From: Alexander Salomon Date: Tue, 10 Jan 95 22:22:03 EST Subject: MAYDAY-Nepenthes in distress I recently had an accident with my large Nepenthes/Orchid case with a large pane of glass breaking. I quickly transferred all of the Nepenthes and orchids to my older tanks and repaired the glass by replacing it with a new pane-actual -ly plexiglass this time around. I used Dow Corning Silicone sealant to glaze the new piece in. I allowed the sealant to dry and later transferred the plants back to the case. There was little loss of humidity as I made sure to jack up the humidity level. 24 hours later, the plants were fine. 48 hours later, how- ever, I noticed that on 4 of the plants, the leaves were becoming a light brown to orange color-First from the outer parts and moving toward the center. It was primarily older leaves that were affected. The pitchers on these leaves appear to be fine. Is it the sealant vapors that has caused this problem? Or are the plants suffering some kind of shock from the transfer. In any case, I have removed all of the affected plants from the case. Of note is that no Orchids(Paphs and Phals), no Sarracenia (I keep very few in the case anyway) and several other Nepenthes remain unaffected. Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? I suspect it is the noxious vapors-does anyone have experience wit h this problem? While there were several casualties, hopefully all will pull through ok. any help is appreciated. -alex ################### From: "Charlotte Vandaveer (BIO)" Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 23:46:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: We can save the world (was RE: IN VITRO stuff) Hi, Jan, _Homo "sapiens"_ - nomen illegitimum? You're absolutely right, I propose the name be changed to Homo sap;-) Happy trapping, Chelsie ################### From: blymn@awadi.com.AU (Brett Lymn) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 15:19:08 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: MAYDAY-Nepenthes in distress According to Alexander Salomon: > >was primarily older leaves that were affected. The pitchers on these leaves >appear to be fine. Is it the sealant vapors that has caused this problem? If it was the normal silicone sealant then the by-product given off during curing it acetic acid. Personally I would not think the concentration would be that high but maybe the acid got concentrated in some water droplets. BTW you can get a different silicone sealant which does not release acetic acid when it cures. I cannot remember what they call it but it is used in the electronics industry where corrosion may be a problem. -- Brett Lymn, Computer Systems Administrator, AWA Defence Industries =============================================================================== "Aha! Pronoun problems. It's not `shoot you, shoot you', it's `shoot me, shoot me'. So, go ahead, shoot ME, shoot ME ... You're Despicable" -- Daffy Duck ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 15:28:13 +0930 Subject: re Mayday Nepenthes in distress Alex, >I recently had an accident with my large Nepenthes/Orchid case with a >large pane of glass breaking. I quickly transferred all of the >Nepenthes and orchids to my older tanks and repaired the glass by >replacing it with a new pane-actual -ly plexiglass this time around. I >used Dow Corning Silicone sealant to glaze the new piece in. I allowed >the sealant to dry and later transferred the plants > back to the case. There was little loss of humidity as I made sure to > jack up the humidity level. >24 hours later, the plants were fine. 48 hours later, how- ever, I >noticed that on 4 of the plants, the leaves were becoming a light brown >to orange color-First from the outer parts and moving toward the >center. It was primarily older >leaves that were affected. The pitchers on these leaves appear to be >fine. Is it the sealant vapors that has caused this problem? Or are >the plants suffering some kind of shock from the transfer. In any >case, > I have removed all of the affected plants from the case. Of note is > that no >Orchids(Paphs and Phals), no Sarracenia (I keep very few in the case >anyway) and several other Nepenthes remain unaffected. Does anyone >have any ideas or suggestions? I suspect it is the noxious vapors-does >anyone have experience wit h this problem? While there were several >casualties, hopefully all will pull through ok. any help is >appreciated. While silicone sealant is curing I believe it produces acetic acid. With the moisture in your terrarium everything is probably getting a bit acidic. Let the sealant dry and then put some water in the tank for a bit. Most of the by products should be water soluable and washing the tank out a few time after this, should get rid of most of it. Cheers Terry P.S. Fish don't like it either. ################### From: "Charlotte Vandaveer (BIO)" Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 00:17:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: New Zealand CP Yes, Pat. Please take me with you;-) Have a wonderful time, Chelsie On Mon, 9 Jan 1995, Warrington, Pat wrote: > I will be travelling to New Zealand in March/95. For the first 3 > weeks I will be travelling around the North Island in a camper van. > Does anyone have suggestions of good cp sites to visit and what I will > find there. The last week I will be in Christchurch on the South > Island and can only visit nearby sites briefly as I will be playing > field hockey all day and partying most nights. Any requests? > Thanks.-Pat > ################### From: Christopher Creel Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 00:21:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: MAYDAY-Nepenthes in distress My guess is that the browning of the leaves is due to a extreme humidity shift. Nepenthes are extremely sensitive to humidity shifts of more than 10% in several minutes, I have found. They can adjust to most any humidity given enough time, but need weeks to do it. When the glass broke, the plants were subjected to a much lower humidity than they were used to. Furthermore, when they were put back in to their new home, they probably underwent another humidity shift. Unfortunately, their is nothing that I know of to remedy the situation now that the damage has been done. At the time of the accident, I would have suggested immediately spraying the leaves with "Wilt-Pruf" or some other form of wax coating designed to keep the leaves turgid. Unless you are doing it already, you might want to hit the plants with a stong solution of Superthrive (about 1/4 teaspoon per gallon). This will lessen the stress the plants are going through. Of course, the hypothesis that the fumes from the caulking are the culprit is legitimate. But I don't have any experience with such stuff. Chris ################### From: John Taylor Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 15:24:42 +1100 Subject: Re: New Pinguicula! I've a few basic (layman's) questions about new species and Pinguicula species. How different does a plant have to be to be designated as a new form/species? For instance, I can see obvious similarities between P. "Pico de Orizaba" and other P. moranensis forms (the flower shape and markings for instance) yet this plant has a glabrous scape whereas P. moranensis doesn't (from what I've seen). Is there a kind of point score system? I have a plant labelled as P. caudata which has P. moranensis characteristics. There is a reference in Jan's list which lists it as being P. macrophylla. >From what I remember from Slack's first book, P. caudata has a large rosette of leaves. My plant on the other hand is only a few inches across at most with *very* pronounced leaf-edge rolls and has somewhat rosy pink flowers. Is my plant likely to be a P. moranensis var. caudata, P. macrophylla or is it totally mislabelled? I've just picked up a new Ping hybrid - P. (morrii x ehlersae) x grandiflora. I can't find any mention of a P. morrii in my literature - is this another Mexican Ping? This plant has the most leaves I've ever seen on a Ping. (I count about 30 visible live leaves, including "buds" at the moment!) and I've high hopes that the flowers will be quite impressive. Given that one parent is "evergreen" and the other resting-bud forming, what should I expect this plant to do come winter? BFN +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John Taylor [Catweasel] | Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | rphjt@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au | Department of Applied Physics | | | Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ / ################### From: Christopher Creel Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 01:09:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hello again Hello All, I have been quite busy and havn't had time to follow the immense amount of new mail from this newsgroup. But I am very happy to see all of the new activity. If all of you will remember, I have been running an on-going experiment for several years to find Nenepthes that could handle a household environment. I define a houshold environment as humidity levels between 10 and 40 percent tempretures between 60 and 80 degrees (with radical shifts in tempreture) window with a southern exposure I had a few suggestions from several members. Those suggestions were: N.mirabilis N.maxima Not surprisingly, the N.mirabilis (average Thai variety) grew like a weed. In fact, it was difficult to find a setting in which it would not thrive. the one drawback to this plant is that it needed to be constantly wet. If it was at all dry, it tended to wilt. The N.maxima is also doing quite well. It is not growing as quickly as the N.mirabilis, but I think that may simply be in the genes. I am not ready to claim that this plant was a success, but it is faring well. Another plant which I have tried is N.fusca. I have found this to be most suited to being a housplant. It takes severe drying out without wilting or even complaining much. It has been pitchering nicely for me under extreme duress. It has turned out to be the most graceful of all my experiments. A few failures are: N.gracillis edwardsiana My next victim will be a N.rafflesiana. I am simply waiting for one of my plants to get get big enough for a cutting. All of the plants were planted in 2 part long fiber sphagnum 2 part silica sand 2 part peat moss 1 part chunk charcoal 1 part orchid bark I used a meter to determine if they were dry. the needle on this meter went from 1 to 8, 8 meaning being able to squeeze a significant amount of water out. I watered when the needle hit 4. I did use Superthrive, but probably should not have. Finally, I know there has been some bizarre discussion about not discussing plant material for sale. I would like to put my 2 cents in by saying: "Phooey!" It is my opion that one of the goals of this group should be spreading around as much material as possible. These plants are disapearing quickly in the wild. We, being conscientious collectors, should make it our responsibility to keep the population of plants in captivity as genetically healthy and as plentiful as possible. With that in mind, I am getting ready to whack back my plants. I plan on keeping a few cutting for my experiments, but I don't have room for them all. So if you want cuttings of the following plants and are willing to pay for postage, they can be yours. The cuttings will be from: N.mirabilis (Thai variety) N.ventricosa (a very nice specimen) N.alata (also, a nice specimen) I plan on doing the deed in February or March, depending on the weather. So if you want some of the cuttings, respond between now and then. Chris ################### From: Gary Habeeb Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 23:02:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Internet marketing Dear Andreas, your absolutely unwilling to take position to my points. I strongly suggest you to further discuss this by private mail. Finally - it took you long enough to figure out no one else is interested. ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 09:57:23 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: MAYDAY-Nepenthes in distress > > My guess is that the browning of the leaves is due to a extreme humidity > shift. Nepenthes are extremely sensitive to humidity shifts of more than > 10% in several minutes, I have found. They can adjust to most any humidity > given enough time, but need weeks to do it. As for my experience. Nepenthes (at least some them) can stand rather low humidities during day time as long as are sprayed once per day. In fact it seems to make them stronger if the humidity is not all the time above 80%. Don't know above sudden changes, though. I would assume that only sudden a drop in humidity would cause problems. Pekka grows his Nepenthes totally unprocted, right ? ..Michael > > When the glass broke, the plants were subjected to a much lower humidity than > they were used to. Furthermore, when they were put back in to their new home, > they probably underwent another humidity shift. > [...] > Chris > ------stop reading here------------------------------------------------ As for Andreas: (I think I can proceed in German as nobody else seems to be interested in this at latest now absolutely off-topic and meaningless discussion. Perhaps he gets a clue now.) Es ist ein Zeichen Deiner absoluten Ignoranz, mich voellig aus dem Kontext heraus zu zitieren und zwar nicht um der Sache willen sondern einfach und allein um hier in dieser Verteilerliste herumzupissen. Wenn wer auch immer mich so angeht, wie es Phil Dingsbums getan hat, dann steht es mir ja wohl zu, in entsprechender Weise zu reagieren. Das habe ich getan. "So wie man in den Wald ruft, schallt es heraus." Es ist ebenso ein Zeichen Deiner verwirrten Existenz, Diskussion "gewinnen" zu wollen. Deine Motive sind mir absolut unklar. Vielleicht geht es Dir letztlich nur darum, einen verklaerten Berufsethos zu verteidigen mit dem Du Dich identifizierst und den Du im Laufe der Diskussion an- gegriffen gefuehlt hast. Wenn das so ist, bewundere ich Dich um Dein Sendungsbewustsein und bemitleide Dich, um Deinen eingeschraenkten Ho- rizont. ..Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 10:47:08 +0200 (EET) Subject: P.vulgaris "white" and P.vulgaris x alpina Hi, I have some time ago P.vulgaris "white" and P.vulgaris x alpina exists. Are they already in (tissue) culture ? ..Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 11:12:47 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: TC but on another note > > While tissue culture is such a hot subject.... > > Has anyone produced any plants by anther culture? I left out the > "haploid" because I wasn't sure if CP's come in different ploidy > levels besides diploid. Anyone set me straight? > > Cheers > Terry > I have to check my files but I recall (I might be wrong though) that P.vulgaris exists in different ploidies (sp?). The geographically more nothern ones (Scandinavia) have a bigger chromosome set than the more souther ones (Alps). I have to check the literature though. ..Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: blymn@awadi.com.AU (Brett Lymn) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 21:17:53 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff According to Greg Long: > >As a newbie CP'er I know >how difficult it can be to find info and plant sources. This mail list >is like an oasis in a vast wasteland of information about CPs. I can >not speak for others on the list but I enjoy posts about who has what >plants, etc. I second this. The number of outlets and variety of plants I have access to is very limited. I would love to find more places to get CP from. Perhaps what we need is an "infomercial" page in the WWW page so that people who want to buy plants can browse this. Anyone interested in buying plants could be pointed at the WWW page. > I do not have a collection with which to trade specimens >against, and must rely on the offerings of other established collectors >and growers. In my experience this is always a problem. New collectors cannot offer very much in terms of a trade so unless someone sells the plants then it is very difficult to build a collection. Seed is one way but most new growers need to get a bit of confidence with an established plant before taking on raising a batch of delicate seedlings. Established collectors giving away plants is another but there is only so much one can do especially if you suspect that some people may be sticking their hand out because the plant is free. When I read about the pros/cons of selling vs trading my mind was taken back to a conversation I had with another collector. This collector was commenting that the display of pygmy drosera at a show was not very good and that he "had much better at home" - for a start I was disappointed that the collector (a member of the society holding the show) did not bring any plants along. He then went on to say that he had many of the same plants which lead me to ask why he did not have some on the trading table, "oh no, I don't sell my plants. I only trade" was his reply. I knew that this guy had been collecting for a long time and there was not much that he would be interested in. So where does that leave the beginners? With nothing, basically. Trading plants is fine but it only really works well between "peers" that is people that have collections that are complementary. People that are starting out need to have some access to plants. Being able to buy plants is very popular as the trading table at some shows I have been involved in clearly shows. The most gratifying bit is to have someone come back the next year and tell you the plant they bought is doing well and they are back for some different plants. Oh, and so this is not 100% pure rant :-) I have a problem that I was wondering if anyone can help me with. The problem is weeds. I have a couple of varieties that seem to be endemic in my collection and no matter how hard I try I cannot get rid of them! One weed is, I believe, called liverwort - it is a thick green leaf that sits on the top of the peat, the underside is a mat of fine roots. Ripping this up is fruitless as it's very difficult to get it all out but if I leave it there the rotten stuff starts choking my CP. About the best I have come up with is to bury the weed under some peat which it seems it cannot cope with. The other weed I do not know the name of. It is a rosette of thin stalks with small spiky leaves arranged in bunches up the stalk, mostly decumbent up rises up at the end of the stalk where the flower/seed head is borne. This weed has very long fine roots and will quickly take over a pot crowding out the CP (and I suspect it does something to the peat making it unsuitable for CP). The best treatment for this weed I have found is repotting and then followup by ripping our the young plantlets that come up. Unfortunately if I don't do this very regularly the weed gets to the point where I cannot do this. Anyone got any good ideas about how I can cope with these pests? BTW most of my plants are either in peat or peat/sand/whatever mix if this makes a difference. -- Brett Lymn, Computer Systems Administrator, AWA Defence Industries =============================================================================== "Also, it takes a lot longer to get up North ..... The slow way" - "Clever Trevor" Ian Drury ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 11:41:17 +0100 Subject: Re: New Pinguicula! John, >How different does a plant have to be to be designated as a new form/species? Good question. There are approximately 10 different (well, the meta-taxonomists still debate if the 11th attempt is really different...) attempts at answering this, but unfortunately it seems neither of which can avoid some tautology ("two species are different from each other if -and only if- they are different species"). >For instance, I can see obvious similarities between P. "Pico de Orizaba" and >other P. moranensis forms (the flower shape and markings for instance) yet >this plant has a glabrous scape whereas P. moranensis doesn't (from what >I've seen). Is there a kind of point score system? No. >I have a plant labelled as P. caudata which has P. moranensis >characteristics. There is a reference in Jan's list which lists it as >being P. macrophylla. The reference you mean is P.caudata sensu HEMSLEY (non SCHLECHT.). This was a single misconception in the literature. It has nothing to do with the P.caudata in the horticultural trade (P.caudata SCHLECHT.), which is considered conspecific with _P.moranensis_. _P.macrophylla_ is a completely different plant ("summer" leaves with distinct petioles marginally with long hairs!), and very rare in cultivation (easy to kill). >From what I remember from Slack's first book, P. caudata has a large rosette >of leaves. My plant on the other hand is only a few inches across at most >with *very* pronounced leaf-edge rolls and has somewhat rosy pink flowers. Are the corolla lobes cuneate? >Is my plant likely to be a P. moranensis var. caudata, P. macrophylla or is >it totally mislabelled? It is probably a member of sect.Orcheosanthus (the "enfant terrible" in the genus). >I've just picked up a new Ping hybrid - P. (morrii x ehlersae) x grandiflora. >I can't find any mention of a P. morrii in my literature - is this another >Mexican Ping? I have never seen this name before. Where did you pick it up? > This plant has the most leaves I've ever seen on a Ping. (I >count about 30 visible live leaves, including "buds" at the moment!) These come from _P.ehlersiae_. Kind regards Jan ################### From: James Powell Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 06:26:54 -36803936 (EST) Subject: Re: MAYDAY-Nepenthes in distress It may be a long shot but I lost a nepenthes plant when I moved a couple of years ago in a moving accident. I didn't damage the container but shook it up pretty badly. It turns out that separated the plant from its roots, and it died fairly quickly. I hope that's not what happened to yours. ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 12:42:35 +0100 Subject: ploidy Terry, >Has anyone produced any plants by anther culture? I left out the >"haploid" because I wasn't sure if CP's come in different ploidy >levels besides diploid. Anyone set me straight? There are some polyploid series in _Pinguicula_, e.g. x=8: 2x=2n=16 _P.corsica_ 4x=2n=32 _P.grandiflora_/_P.longifolia_/_P.balcanica_/_P.leptoceras_ etc. 8x=2n=64 _P.vulgaris_ BTW: Michael, do you have a reference for _P.vulgaris_ with 2n= other than 64? In the collective species _P.crystallina_ (incl. _P.hirtiflora_), individuals with 2n=24, 32, and 48 have been found (without morphological or geographic correlation to chromosome numbers). The strangest cp known in this respect is _Drosera lanata_ with 19 somatic chromosomes (hypertriploid 3x + 1, with x=6, which is the usual basic number in the _D.petiolaris_ complex). Meiosis must be funny (or omitted at all) in this species, as it obviously does form viable seed (by apomixis?). To answer your initial question: I do not know of any attempt at anther culture in cp (OK, this is not really an answer). Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 13:14:56 +0200 (EET) Subject: liverwort > > According to Greg Long: > > > >As a newbie CP'er I know > >how difficult it can be to find info and plant sources. This mail list > >is like an oasis in a vast wasteland of information about CPs. I can > >not speak for others on the list but I enjoy posts about who has what > >plants, etc. > > I second this. The number of outlets and variety of plants I have > access to is very limited. I would love to find more places to get CP > from. > > Perhaps what we need is an "infomercial" page in the WWW page so that > people who want to buy plants can browse this. Anyone interested in > buying plants could be pointed at the WWW page. or do put this list on the ftp server (for those who do not have access to WWW). I think lack of light supports growth of liverwort. You may also try to cover your pots with pure sand. At least this helps against algae and moss (to some extent). ..Michael ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 08:40 EST Subject: Traders > When I read about the pros/cons of selling vs trading my mind was > taken back to a conversation I had with another collector. This > collector was commenting that the display of pygmy drosera at a show > was not very good and that he "had much better at home" - for a start > I was disappointed that the collector (a member of the society holding > the show) did not bring any plants along. He then went on to say that > he had many of the same plants which lead me to ask why he did not > have some on the trading table, "oh no, I don't sell my plants. I > only trade" was his reply. I knew that this guy had been collecting > for a long time and there was not much that he would be interested in. > So where does that leave the beginners? With nothing, basically. Getting to conventions is sometimes rather hard for us traders, since it is difficult to get there by canoe. Also, the exchange rate has taken a bad turn since beaver pelts are no longer legal tender. :-) > Oh, and so this is not 100% pure rant :-) I have a problem that I was > wondering if anyone can help me with. The problem is weeds. I have a > couple of varieties that seem to be endemic in my collection and no > matter how hard I try I cannot get rid of them! One weed is, I > believe, called liverwort - it is a thick green leaf that sits on the > top of the peat, the underside is a mat of fine roots. Ripping this > up is fruitless as it's very difficult to get it all out but if I Don't kill it! Liverwort is another kind of carnivorous plant. Usually it grows on the surface of water. Check out the movie "Creepshow II" for some great documentarry footage of the predatory habits of the liverwort _Riccia homoconsumis_! :-) Michael ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 09:58:39 -0500 Subject: Re: MAYDAY-Nepenthes in distress > I recently had an accident with my large Nepenthes/Orchid case with a large > pane of glass breaking. I ...repaired the glass by replacing it with a new pane-actually plexiglass this time around. I used Dow Corning Silicone sealant to glaze > the new piece in. I allowed the sealant to dry and later transferred the plants back to the case. There was little loss of humidity ....... -alex > Alex: I use silicone quite a bit around my house for plants and otherwise, and the vapors I would definitely consider harmful. You didn't mention how long you let the silicone cure, but I would suggest a week or more. (Instructions say about 24 hours I think.) In an enclosed space even a little residual vapor would probably affect your plants. I recently worked with silicone and for the first time, due to weather, humidity, or who knows what, the silicone took several days to harden - obviously leaking vapors the whole time. As for humidity, in my experience terrarium grown Nepenthes (even in large cases) come to depend on the super-saturated humidity, taking them out for an hour or so doesn't generally seem to affect them, but with longer periods the leaves and new traps desiccate. If it is simply a humidity problem I would think they will recover. On the good side, I used to use hand made glass/silicone terrariums for my Neps. and found them to be a good approach for lack of money, space, etc situations. Still use them for new Neps, cuttings, and plants that don't seem to want to pitcher. Tom in Fl PS. I never had any luck with plexiglass, it always seemed to warp, yellow, and get fine cracks in it, even under florescents. Is the stuff available now work better than it used to - or is there a special brand? ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 10:14:34 -0500 Subject: Re: IN VITRO stuff >The problem is weeds. I have a > couple of varieties that seem to be endemic in my collection and no > matter how hard I try I cannot get rid of them! One weed is, I > believe, called liverwort - it is a thick green leaf that sits on the > top of the peat, the underside is a mat of fine roots. ... > The other weed I do not know the name of. It is > a rosette of thin stalks with small spiky leaves arranged in bunches > up the stalk, mostly decumbent up rises up at the end of the stalk > where the flower/seed head is borne. .... (stuff deleted for space) >Anyone got any good ideas about how I > can cope with these pests? -- > Brett Lymn, Computer Systems Administrator, AWA Defence Industries Brett: I understand your frustration, I have had problems with the first weed you mention, and when possible I just repot the CP and throw out the old growing medium. An even bigger problem for me are the frigging ferns, I get all kinds of ferns in my sphagnum. These suckers regenerate from any fragment left in the pot, and damned if they don't choke out just about everything but Neps. I have no solution, only symphathy. Tom in Fl ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 10:59:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Orchids Group Address (non-CP) Hi folks, Due to the number of requests I'm posting the address here. Send the message: Subscribe Orchids To: Mailserv@scuacc.scu.edu or for bitnet to: Mailserv@scu Discussions come in digest form so the mail message volume is small. Enjoy! Jeff in NC ################### From: Bob Beer Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 08:17:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nepenthes in the living room I have had very good luck with N. x curtisii pitchering in an east window in my living room. It even put out a pitcher in November, though it was small by comparison. (Others - upper pitchers - are about 8" long) Bob P.S. My next latest try with N. ventricosa has been more successful than the last - I have out on a sunporch that stays *very* cool, (but doesn't freeze). It just pitchered for the first time. :) ################### From: "Brian Obrien" Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 10:17:00 CST Subject: household Nepenthes media With regard to the tests of Nepenthes as houseplants, Christopher Creel wrote that the one difficulty with N. mirabilis & N. maxima is that they have to be constantly wet. A way to partly alleviate this problem might be inclusion of polyacryalmide in the mix. This is sold by a number of mail-order companies as `Moisture-Mizer', etc. I've found it to be useful on mounts for epiphytic orchids and in other epiphytic orchid media which needs to remain very open to air. Have any list members tried inclusion of this material in cp media? It might even be possible to use it as a major component. Brian -- bobrien@gac.edu Brian A. O'Brien, Department of Chemistry, Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, Minnesota 56082 U.S.A. tel. (507)933-7310 fax (507)933-7041 ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 11:48:09 -0500 Subject: Re: posting price lists Excuse me, but Michael only expressed HIS opinion. I didn't see or hear anyone else complaining about this. Why punish us just because one person has an opinion. I never agreed to allow him to dictate what can be on this line. Becky ################### From: Christopher Creel Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 11:48:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: household Nepenthes media Brian wrote: > With regard to the tests of Nepenthes as houseplants, Christopher Creel > wrote that the one difficulty with N. mirabilis & N. maxima is that they > have to be constantly wet. A way to partly alleviate this problem might be > inclusion of polyacryalmide in the mix. This is sold by a number of > mail-order companies as `Moisture-Mizer', etc. I've found it to be useful > on mounts for epiphytic orchids and in other epiphytic orchid media which > needs to remain very open to air. I have heard strange and mysterious uses for this stuff. I have a set of instructions I give out to Nepenthes beginners and intermediates that I have written over several years of research and listening to this group. One particularly interesting use was to cut a piece PVC piping in half, cover both ends, fill it with this gel, place the whole thing in a terrarium which has about an inch of water in the bottom and finally place Nepenthes cuttings in the gel. Apparently, although I have not tried it, this produces great results. Chris ################### From: Christopher Creel Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 12:00:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: That was quick That was quick. I have had a number of messages sent to me personally and over the newsgroup for my cuttings. Unfortunately, I will not be able to fulfill all requests. I will reply to each person who responded, individually. To do this, however, I need the addresses of Gary Marshall and Dave Purks, as I could not figure out their e-mail address from their message headers. All further communication about this matter should be directed to my e-mail address at ctcreel@top.cis.syr.edu. Chris ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 11 Jan 1995 11:37:00 +0100 Subject: Re: TC but on another note Dear Terry, you wrote: > While tissue culture is such a hot subject.... > > Has anyone produced any plants by anther > culture? I left out the "haploid" because I > wasn't sure if CP's come in different ploidy > levels besides diploid. Anyone set me straight? Not to my knowledge. Anther culture even in species where protocols already exist is regarded as one of the most difficult tissue culture operations one could try. Best to my knowledge (but as I ve only read about this subject I might be wrong) you would need a highly controlled environment hard to achieve in a non-pro lab. All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: "Brian George Kirkland" Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 12:31:00 -0500 XSubject: Re: TC but on another note i do not have enough time to keep up with my messages anymore please remove me from your list thank you brian kirkland ################### From: "Jeffrey Michael Stein" Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 14:22:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Weeds. > matter how hard I try I cannot get rid of them! One weed is, I > believe, called liverwort - it is a thick green leaf that sits on the As noted before, Liverwort does not seem to like higher light intensities. The organism is probably present in the media your using in the form of gemmae(sp). Next time sterilize the media beforehand, use a non-contaminated media, and make sure not to contaminate the new media from 'infected' pots.. The water that splashes off of liverworts spreads their gemmae. > it cannot cope with. The other weed I do not know the name of. It is > a rosette of thin stalks with small spiky leaves arranged in bunches This is probably some sort of rush. Locally, I seem to get alot of 'Japanese Rush'. As does the MSU collection. It grows in the local mashes and wet areas. Just be luck that you don't have _Oxalis_ running rampant. JMS ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 16:05:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seed experiences Hi folks, Have people had positive experiences with CP seed from Doug and Vivi Rowland? E-mail me at welch@niehs.nih.gov and I'll post a consensus. Thanks in advance! Jeff ################### From: Adam Wexler Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 14:02:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: TC but on another note I know that in Drosera ploidy levels do exceed 2n, but even more interesting is that many pygmy Drosera have non-integer ploidy levels. But pollen culture should definitely work, and it is a great source of axenic cells. -ADW ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 09:23:53 +0930 Subject: Re TC but on another note Andreas, >Not to my knowledge. Anther culture even in species where >protocols already exist is regarded as one of the most >difficult tissue culture operations one could try. Best to my >knowledge (but as I ve only read about this subject I might be >wrong) you would need a highly controlled environment hard to >achieve in a non-pro lab. I find the tissue culture process fascinating and so I am trying to learn as much as possible about the subject. Anther culture is carried out at my work site on Barley, so I was just curious to see if anyone had tried it for CP. Hmmm... this all does take place in pretty controlled conditions. How do you maintain your light and temperatures i.e. do you have a constant temp cabinet? Terry ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 13:55:57 +0930 Subject: IUCN CP Specialist Group Does anyone belong to, had some experience with or know something about the World Conservation Union/Species Survival Commission Carnivorous Plant Specialist Group? They are reforming their membership and are seeking expertise. Some information was sent to the Australian CP Society (guess who got it!) and so would like to know a little more before I decide to commit. I'm sure that there is enough expertise in this group to handle many of their queries and I will inform them of this group's existance. Cheers Terry ################### From: Brian Jones Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 20:51:11 PST Subject: Re: MAYDAY-Nepenthes in distress Alex: You didn't mention which DOW product you used. Some products take an unseemly long time to cure (not a problem in the shower!). For my aquariums (when they leak) I use aquarium sealer (from DOW) and let it cure according to directions...you might try that stuff! (If you think plants are sensitive, try putting a rubber hose in a salt-water tank!) -BJ ################### From: Brian Jones Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 21:00:35 PST Subject: Death to Ferns! Brett, Tom (if FL, no less): I have the same troubles...I just gave up, stuff the ferns in a new pot and let them grow as houseplants. -BJ ################### From: ksnive@pstbbs.com Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 18:18:16 -0700 Subject: Cpn >From: Christopher Waldrop >Subject: CPN >I still haven't received my December issue of CPN. It has been >published, right? I assume this is a postal service problem, but I'm >not sure who to contact for the missing issue... Yes it has been published. I live in Washington State and have had mine for about two weeks now. Some times the mail snails can get quite slow so unless Steve has said something else I'd say give it one or two more weeks. If you don't see it by then contact Steve Baker STEVEB4706@AOL.COM and I'm sure he will make good. Kevin Snively ksnive@pstbbs.com Secretary/Treasurer I.C.P.S. ################### From: ksnive@pstbbs.com Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 18:18:20 -0700 Subject: Mail problimes During the past few months It appears that mail sent to my address at prostar have not been reaching me. Because there are so many people I'm waiting to hear from I'm sending it to the list server. If you have been using this address to send me mail please delete it and use this one instead. KSNIVE@PSTBBS.COM If you are waiting to hear from me and haven't write me again please >Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 10:15:35 -0800 >From: "Paul Temple" >Subject: Re: RE Ping Study Group >Do you have a current address for the Ping study group and, if >so, do you know when they last published a bulletin? Paul not to but in or any thing but I wanted to talk to you any way. The last issue I received was the Newsletter No.5. Sept 1994, issue. The postmark was from the 18th. of Oct. 1994. The correct address to write to for a subscription is still; Ron Mudd 10, High Street Wymington Nr. Rushden Northants NN10 9LS England A while back you were going to check into a book published in your part of Europe for me about _Dionaea_ and if you ever found it for me or sent any mail about it then I fear it is one of the ones lost in the Net. Christine I am still interested in information on how to acquire copies of your article. If you posted it I did not see the reply, or maybe you did not see my request for information. I have looked every where up here in Washington state and it is just not to be found. I'd like 5 copies if they are available. >An account of my masters research on darlingtonia has just been >published in the California native plant society's quarterly journal >'Fremontia'. > > Its in the October issue, page 29. Mathew Jebb Did you ever find any extra copies of the Science in New Guinea ar ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 15:51:12 +0930 Subject: RE DArlingtonia article Kevin, > Christine > I am still interested in information on how to acquire copies >of your article. If you posted it I did not see the reply, or >maybe you did not see my request for information. I have looked >every where up here in Washington state and it is just not to be >found. Whoops! Major stuff up on my behalf. Christine actually sent me a copy of the article plus her Darlingtonia references. My intention was to send them to Rick for inclusion into the archives. Unfortunately it slipped my mind as I have an anxious funding body waiting for a report that will govern the flow of dollars my way. Will make sure Rick gets it in the next few days. Sorry to all those people waiting. Terry ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 09:42:54 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: ploidy > > > There are some polyploid series in _Pinguicula_, e.g. x=8: 2x=2n=16 > _P.corsica_ 4x=2n=32 > _P.grandiflora_/_P.longifolia_/_P.balcanica_/_P.leptoceras_ etc. > 8x=2n=64 _P.vulgaris_ > > BTW: Michael, do you have a reference for _P.vulgaris_ with 2n= other > than 64? Jan, I checked my reference. You are right! It was not P.vulgaris which has different levels of ploidy but the European species of Pinguicula which have a higher level of ploidy in the North and a lower one in the South. The reference is Casper 1966. Sorry for my ignorance. ..Michael > > In the collective species _P.crystallina_ (incl. _P.hirtiflora_), > individuals with 2n=24, 32, and 48 have been found (without morphological > or geographic correlation to chromosome numbers). > > > Kind regards > Jan -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 09:45:24 +0200 (EET) Subject: European Utrics ? Hi, does anybody know whether the following European Utrics have already entered (tissue culture) collections: U.brehmii U.ochroleuca U.stygia ..Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: "Carl Strohmenger (HSC)" Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 06:14:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Death to Ferns! There are probably 20,000 species of ferns reported in the world. Some of them are invasive and some of them are well behaved. I have mixed plantings of some ferns (native to my area) along with my CPs and am not having any serious problems. I think that you need to consult with your nearest botanical garden staff or university botany researchers to find out which ferns will be suitable for companion planting with your CPs - Carl Strohmenger ################### From: John Taylor Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 22:09:01 +1100 Subject: Re: Re: P. caudata (was New Pinguicula!) >>I have a plant labelled as P. caudata which has P. moranensis >>characteristics. There is a reference in Jan's list which lists it as >>being P. macrophylla. > > >The reference you mean is P.caudata sensu HEMSLEY (non SCHLECHT.). >This was a single misconception in the literature. It has nothing to >do with the P.caudata in the horticultural trade (P.caudata SCHLECHT.), >which is considered conspecific with _P.moranensis_. _P.macrophylla_ >is a completely different plant ("summer" leaves with distinct petioles >marginally with long hairs!), and very rare in cultivation (easy to >kill). > >>From what I remember from Slack's first book, P. caudata has a large >>rosette of leaves. My plant on the other hand is only a few inches >>across at most with *very* pronounced leaf-edge rolls and has somewhat >>rosy pink flowers. > > >Are the corolla lobes cuneate? Only the bottom one - which is also emarginate (notch is almost triangular) the others are rather oblong in shape (the "middle" two maybe fractionally blunter than the "upper" two...) The markings on the flower are typical P.moranensis (darker (pink) surrounding & dividing white stripe into two parts). The lower three lobes are held in a flat plane. The upper/middle lobes are about 13 x 8 mm, the lower about 18 x 12 mm and the spur is roughly 45 mm long (with a bend about halfway along its length) and changes from pinkish to white to greenish (greenish near the the tip). The scape is glandular over its entire length. The mid-rib of the leaf has a noticable fine groove running along it. As a matter of interest (or not...), P. "Pico de Orizaba" has considerably more elongated lobes and the markings on edges of the lobes (around the white stripes) are extremely dark (whereas the thin center stripe marking is only a little darker than the lobe colour). The curious thing about the flower is that the middle lobes are twisted so that they are at about 90o to the plane of the lower lobe (with the normally front surfaces facing upward). The spur is pretty much uniformly purplish. The scape is almost entirely glabrous with only the top inch having any noticable (stalked) glands. The midrib of the leaf does not have a groove and is very pale or white and obviously triangular (being very broad towards the centre of the rosette). >>Is my plant likely to be a P. moranensis var. caudata, P. macrophylla or is >>it totally mislabelled? > >It is probably a member of sect.Orcheosanthus (the "enfant terrible" in the >genus). >>I've just picked up a new Ping hybrid - P. (morrii x ehlersae) x >>grandiflora. I can't find any mention of a P. morrii in my literature >>- is this another Mexican Ping? > > >I have never seen this name before. Where did you pick it up? (No prizes for guessing... ;-) ) I got it from Collectors' Corner at Gardenworld (a "local" nursery complex). They occasionally bring in some new varieties of plants (making a change from the usual Dionaea, Drosera and anonymous Sarracenia hybrids...) This appears to be a small batch that came in recently - there are about three plants each of the new hybrid and also P. "Pico de Orizaba" (although for some reason all the plants in the nurseries are appearing to be entering dormancy - mine's the only one that I've seen in flower so far). There was no labelling to indicate the source of the plants. I fancy that morrii *could* be a mislabelling of P. moranensis (something of a slang form - like Morris Minors are dubbed "Morry"s... ;-) ) If so, this would make sense, since P. x "Sethos" (moranensis x ehlersae) is very common in the CP-selling nurseries here. The only source of doubt is the two "i"s - this does make P. morrii look like it could be a genuine name. >> This plant has the most leaves I've ever seen on a Ping. (I >>count about 30 visible live leaves, including "buds" at the moment!) > >These come from _P.ehlersiae_. I just did a quick check on my P. ehlersae - it only has 28 leaves... I think that it's just that P. ehlersae has such small leaves (and hence, a small rosette) that makes it look less impressive than the hybrid (though it is very pretty and certainly much tidier looking than the hybrid :-) ) BFN +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John Taylor [Catweasel] | Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | rphjt@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au | Department of Applied Physics | | | Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: tomas polivka Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 12:40:11 MET Subject: tuberous drosera pollinating Hi, Has anybody any experiences with pollinating tuberous drosera? I have tried both cross-pollinating and self-pollinating but always without any success. Can anybody help me? Tomas Polivka ################### From: Christopher Waldrop Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 07:40:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Cpn > Yes it has been published. I live in Washington State and have had > mine for about two weeks now. Some times the mail snails can get > quite slow so unless Steve has said something else I'd say give it > one or two more weeks. If you don't see it by then contact Steve Baker > > STEVEB4706@AOL.COM > > and I'm sure he will make good. Actually, he already has. It came yesteday, but whenever something like this occurs my initial reaction is to blame the local postal service rather than the person responsible for the mailings. ################### From: Christopher Waldrop Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 07:51:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Mystery Ping I'm especially grateful to those who offered their advice in helping to identify the mysterious butterworts in my basement. Checking them last night, I noticed that what I thought were going to be flower spikes were actually developing leaves (my P. moranensis has also done this to me several times; it's never bloomed yet so I'm not sure what to look for) and the "orbs" had developed short stems, confirming my belief (hope) that they were young flowers. ################### From: ROMEISER@UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 09:30:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: self-intro My name is John Romeiser and I have been interested in CP off and on for many years. I have experience growing Venus Flytraps, pitcher plants, and sundews. Since I have been out of the growing business for quite a while, I would like to know where I can order plants, bulbs, etc. ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 15:44:06 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Nepenthes pollen > Hello all, > > Within the next weeks I will have fresh N. dubia pollen available. Anyone > interested please contact me. > > Does anybody have fresh pollen available now? - > _Very_ _soon_ I ll have N. glabrata and N. dentata x glabrata flowering > (buth female). Any pollen is welcome, but I need it really very soon.. So far I've been offered pollen of N. maxima and N. carunculata:-)) Anything else available out there? Any more lonely female Nep's interested in N. dubia pollen? all the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: kirk Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 07:13:59 PST Subject: Re: Seed experiences I just received some seed from doug and vicki and it appeared to be generous qu antities. I can't vouch for the germination rates. He has some interesting vari eties available. He also sold me his last copy of vol I of Lowrie's books. Of i nterest is available reprint of Slack's book carnivorous plants for L12.50 +L3. 50 postage ################### From: "Carl Strohmenger (HSC)" Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 10:42:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Off Topic/Hawaii/ Skunk Vine I am looking for help in controling Skunk Vine (Paederia foetida). It has been reported to me that Skunk Vine is a serious problem in Hawaiian parklands, and I have been referred to four people in Hawaii who have experience in dealing with this weed. Can anyone help me find these men? I have been unsuccessful in tracking down good s-mail addresses for any of them. I am hoping that some of the members of this list might know one or more of them. An email address would be wonderful, but a telephone number or a US Postal address would work too. 1. Robert W. Hodby - with the Hawaii Division of Forestry and Wildlife 2. LLoyd Loope - with the National Biological Survey 3. Arthur Medeiros - with the Haleakala National Park / Maui 4. Stephen Anderson - with the Haleakala National Park / Maui Thanks for any help you can give. - Carl Strohmenger cstrohme@com1.med.usf.edu ################### From: "Walter Greenwood" Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 11:02:08 EST5EDT Subject: Re: Re: New Pinguicula! > > _Pinguicula greenwoodii_ is described as new. ... > ... > Seriously now, I *am* a bit curious as to the origin of the name. Despite my tasteless P.S., I posed the original question in all seriousness. Can *anyone* tell me who this beast is named after? ever so sincerely, Walter Greenwood P.S.: Speaking of tasteless P.S.s, I once heard a story about two male USDA inspectors chasing a terrified female colleague all around the inspection station at JFK with a large, red N. sanguinea pitcher. Talk about a hostile work environment! Hope she got punitive damages. ;-) ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 11 Jan 1995 16:04:00 +0100 Subject: Weeds Dear Brett, you wrote: > The best treatment for this weed I have found > is repotting and then followup by ripping our > the young plantlets that come up. Unfortunately > if I don't do this very regularly the weed gets > to the point where I cannot do this. Anyone > got any good ideas about how I can cope with > these pests? > > BTW most of my plants are either in peat or > peat/sand/whatever mix if this makes a > difference. The fact that the weeds come up again (soon?) after repotting might be a sign that your peat is contaminated by seeds or spores in case of Liverworts. Did you collect your peat from a peat-swamp? If you bought your peat maybe a change of the brand helps. By the way, I m just remembering that Joachim who s also on the list is currently experimenting with a peat substitute made from coconut which seems to work excellent for Nepenthes.... All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 11 Jan 1995 23:36:00 +0100 Subject: Re: Weeds. > Next time sterilize the media beforehand Once I tried sterilizing peat before sowing CP-seeds on it hoping to have less problems with algae or mold. The opposite was true! Never before have I observed such a quick growth of these. I suppose that boiling breaks down the peat, probably by opening still closed cells within the remainder of Sphagnum. Keeping this substrate under non sterile conditions after boiling as e.g. your propagating case makes it a good medium for these. Have other people observed similar things? Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: Heiko Rischer Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 18:18:00 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Re: TC but on another note On Wed, 11 Jan 1995, Andreas Wistuba wrote: > Not to my knowledge. Anther culture even in species where protocols > already exist is regarded as one of the most difficult tissue culture > operations one could try. Best to my knowledge (but as I ve only read > about this subject I might be wrong) you would need a highly controlled > environment hard to achieve in a non-pro lab. > As far as I know Anther culture is almost standard in many crop plants in the meantime (e.g. it is done here in the labs of the university, plant breeding), but most of these species are monocotyl and therefor we cannot translate all informations unreserved to dicotyl plants (i.e. most cps). Nevertheless its even there an empiric process working out a protocoll that works for a single species (or even genotype). Another point is the highly controlled environment mentioned above. In many cases the anthers must be treated with cold prior and after explanting on agar (i.e. liquid medium usually used). Further you have to harvest the anthers (or pollen)at a special stage of the development (pollenmitosis) otherwise they will never grow on the medium. Its rather complicated to catch this moment and gain appreciable yield (i.e. growing plants ). -> you need a lot of working hands and laboratory space. Yours Heiko ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 18:18:13 +0100 Subject: Re: Re: New Pinguicula! Walter, >> > _Pinguicula greenwoodii_ is described as new. ... >> ... >> Seriously now, I *am* a bit curious as to the origin of the name. The cited paper does not reveal the first name of the collector/collectrix (of the type specimen of this new species). Maybe someone in UK does know more. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 13:17:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Weeds. > Once I tried sterilizing peat before sowing CP-seeds on it hoping to have > less problems with algae or mold. The opposite was true! Never before have > I observed such a quick growth of these. I suppose that boiling breaks > down the peat, probably by opening still closed cells within the remainder > of Sphagnum. Keeping this substrate under non sterile conditions after > boiling as e.g. your propagating case makes it a good medium for these. > Have other people observed similar things? > Andreas Andreas: My experience has been about the same. My casual observations have lead me to believe that sterilizing peat and dried sphagnum may reduce the number of weeds and insect pests, but not mold or fungus. I decided that the medium was probably "reinfected" as soon as it was back under growing conditions. It would seem to me there may be as much beneficial bacterial and fungal action as there would troublesome beasties. I haven't done a controlled comparison, so this is just based on limited observation. Tom in Fl ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 13:20:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Seed experiences > I just received some seed from doug and vicki and it appeared to be > generous qu > antities. I can't vouch for the germination rates. He has some > interesting vari > eties available. He also sold me his last copy of vol I of Lowrie's > books. Of i > nterest is available reprint of Slack's book carnivorous plants for > L12.50 +L3. > 50 postage > > I haven't heard of these seed suppliers. Is an address available? I would also be interested in Vol 1 of Lowrie's book. Are there still sources for Vol 1? Tom in Fl ################### From: fbroom@HRR1.HORT.CRI.NZ Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 20:32:58 +1200 Subject: Re: NZ cp Someone posted a few days ago about coming to NZ. I could show them a few local Drosera, but I suspect coming from the US to NZ to see carnivorous plants may be a bit like a resident of New York going to the North Pole to study traffic congestion. Fraser ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 11:59:48 -0800 Subject: "Infomercial" Cp archive > > Perhaps what we need is an "infomercial" page in the WWW page so that > > people who want to buy plants can browse this. Anyone interested in > > buying plants could be pointed at the WWW page. > > or do put this list on the ftp server (for those who do not have access to > WWW). I notice that this suggestion keeps coming up from time to time, so I'm putting in my two cents: We *DO* have such a service! We have had it since the inception of this group. There are two files in the CP archives: cp.sellerlist ;merged commercial price lists cp.growlist ;merged member grow list The growlist currently contains information on 24 different members, for a total of 384 species, with 2293 individual plant entries. The sellerlist contains commercial pricelists of 14 different growers, listing a total of 347 species, and 1283 individual entries. These files are only as good as your continued contributions! Please make use of these files. I always welcome updates to your personal growlists, and any contributions of commercial pricelists. Contact me for the proper submission format. Thanks! -- Rick ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 08:16:36 +0930 Subject: Re Pollinating tuberous Drosera Tomas, > Has anybody any experiences with pollinating tuberous drosera? >I have tried both cross-pollinating and self-pollinating but >always without any success. Can anybody help me? My collection of tuberous Drosera is far from extensive but I have been able to get seed from D. stolonifera porrecta, D. stolonifera rupicola, D. whittakeri and D.peltata. All of these were self pollinated.D. peltata produces copious quantities of seed and ends up growing all over the place. I haven't been able to get others, such as D. orbiculata and D. zonaria, to produce seed though. Cheers Terry Which species are giving you troubles? ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 08:32:39 +0930 Subject: Summer and Tuberous Drosera Well all, It looks like summer is really here this year. You may recall an earlier posting about the lack of rail and temperatures in excess of 36 C. Well the temperature for the greater part of this week (and also the rest of the week) has been around 36 C (todays estimated max is 38 C). You can tell it's summer though because the bushfires have started. Here's only hoping we don't have a really bad one. No wonder the tuberous Drosera choose this time to stay underground. Hopefully the fires will stimulate the Drosera into even better growth and germination. Cheers Terry ################### From: Christopher Waldrop Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 16:22:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re Pollinating tuberous Drosera > My collection of tuberous Drosera is far from extensive but I > have been able to get seed from D. stolonifera porrecta, D. > stolonifera rupicola, D. whittakeri and D.peltata. All of these > were self pollinated.D. peltata produces copious quantities of > seed and ends up growing all over the place. I haven't been able > to get others, such as D. orbiculata and D. zonaria, to produce > seed though. I've heard conflicting things about D. whittakeri. How viable are its seeds usually? Isn't it also the one tuberous species that grows in the summer and dies back in the winter? ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 17:40 EST Subject: RE: New Pinguicula > > The cited paper does not reveal the first name of the collector/collectrix Collectrix ?! :-) Michael ################### From: bertozzi.terry@wpo.pi.sa.gov.au Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:45:36 +0930 Subject: RE tuberous Drosera >> My collection of tuberous Drosera is far from extensive but I >> have been able to get seed from D. stolonifera porrecta, D. >> stolonifera rupicola, D. whittakeri and D.peltata. All of >these >> were self pollinated.D. peltata produces copious quantities of >> seed and ends up growing all over the place. I haven't been >able >> to get others, such as D. orbiculata and D. zonaria, to >produce >> seed though. >I've heard conflicting things about D. whittakeri. How viable >are its seeds usually? Isn't it also the one tuberous species >that grows in the summer and dies back in the winter? D. whittakeri seed doesn't germinate easily (I don't bother tubers are easier :) ) and perhaps does require that ever present bushfire to break dormancy. I can guarantee that you will hard pressed finding them here during the summer! Any comments from the other Aussie states? Cheers Terry ################### From: Peter Cole Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 17:03:27 GMT Subject: wordsearch Feel free to skip the next 2 screens and get straight to the wordsearch if you're sick of all these flames. Quotes uncredited - you know who you are... > O.k., but let's stop now our flames; > To Phil, if it bothers you just logout. :-) Why should he ( or anyone else, ) have to? - > Remember this is not flame_each_other_cp@opus.hpl.hp.com! > P.S.: For the future, you, and your vast majority of this group: Discover > the unknown commands of your mail-reader, now! Use 'd' for delete. (for > weenies only!) All well and good, but some of us ( well, I do anyway, ) take this list in digest mode. I don't see why I should have to delete the whole list just to get rid of the flames. > I think we should stop now this crazy and childy discussion; ... > P.S.: I suggest to continue this discussion by personal mail...> I strongly suggest you to further discuss this by private mail... > Herewith, I declare to refrain from further post on this topic for the time being, i.e. I have lunch now. SO DO IT! > I like this listserver, but I am going to unsubscribe real soon if all I > get is this inane back and forth flaming. And it has already started... > What happened to all the fun stuff... Fun stuff? Oh yes, I remember that. OK, here's something to lighten the list up a little ( I hope. ) _____________________________________________________________________________ CARNIVOROUS PLANT WORDSEARCH Yes, it's one of those grids you have to pick out words from. All words are in straight lines horizontally, vertically or diagonally; forwards or backwards. And just for a challenge I'm not going to tell you what the words you're looking for are, nor how many of them there are (ha). The only clue you've got is that they are all names of CP genera ( or more exactly genera which contain at least one carnivorous species .) I know a couple have been reclassified by the lumpers , but they were nice words... So if you fancy a bit of healthy competition ( rather than all these flames, ) let's see who can get this ( you may want to check a book if you're not well-versed in CP nomenclature, that's OK - you've still got to find them, and it's not a complete list. :> ) No prizes, just the glory - first correctly completed grid ( overstrike names with lowercase letters, ) or just a list of the hidden genera, into my mailbox wins ( I'll announce the winner later. ) A E N I C C O R B P B E A X N S A R R A C E N I A R R Y D A R L I N G T O N I A O L R I G M U K S V A G C S H O O S O G J I U E R U A U P H S A N N L L S O E I T T M P O I H B A I P A U C O O A M P I Y R L E D L Q U P L I O H B I N T U A T B L S A L P Y A E D R O S E R A I H E Y L G N E P E N T H E S P H L L A D N A V O R D L A E S O U T R I C U L A R I A C X P M U L L Y H P O Y H P I R T completed grids, comments, feedback, flames, death threats, poll tax demands etc. to: carnivor@bunyip.demon.co.uk ( not to the list - it'll just clog it up again and spoil other people's challenge. ) Enjoy... Peter ################### From: peredur@usa.net (John Rising) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 17:59:01 -0700 (MST) Subject: Seeds&moss Since several people have been mentioning problems with ferns and their cps I thought I'd add a question of my own. I have been trying to grow several species of cps from seed after sowing them in peat moss mixed with vermiculite. While I had great success producing large quantities of seedlings I also managed to grow an overwhelming amount of moss. This moss seems to be literally outcompeting my seedlings. The seeds are almost 6 months old now but seem extremely frail. What hope is their for their salvation? If I drop the humidity I may get rid of the moss but I think it will kill these seedlings too. If I pick the moss out by hand the whole surface comes up carrying away all the cps in it. Are they doomed? Whill they eventually mature enough to transfer? They are venus fly traps and 4 species of drosera. Thanks for any help you might have!! John peredur@usa.net ################### From: eheick@acs.bu.edu Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 21:05:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: nepenthes seed medium I just recently received some Nepenthes seed. Can someone tell me what the best medium is on which to sow it? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Christoph ################### From: blymn@awadi.com.AU (Brett Lymn) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 13:05:20 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Weeds According to Andreas Wistuba: > >The fact that the weeds come up again (soon?) after repotting might be a >sign that your peat is contaminated by seeds or spores in case of >Liverworts. Did you collect your peat from a peat-swamp? No I do not collect my own peat. For a while I have been using "Warrior Brand" Peat which comes from New Zealand but have this year switched to one called "Defender" which comes from Australia (support the local product, no? :-). I do not believe either peat have any foreign seeds/spores in them. I think that I am leaving fragments of the weeds on the rhizomes or whatever when I repot. These weeds seem to be able to come back from the almost invisible specks. >If you bought >your peat maybe a change of the brand helps. I am hoping the Defender brand may slow the weeds down a bit - it seems to be more open then the Warrior stuff. BTW I do _not_ select my peat on the basis of the war like name ;-) >By the way, I m just remembering that Joachim who s also on the list is >currently experimenting with a peat substitute made from coconut which >seems to work excellent for Nepenthes.... > I would be very interested to hear what results you get with that stuff. My SO found some of this peat substitute in a supermarket, I was planning a major repotting so I decided that I really did not want to risk the experiment on a major part of my collection. If the substitute works out then it would be good as it sells for about half the price of peat here in South Australia. -- Brett Lymn, Computer Systems Administrator, AWA Defence Industries =============================================================================== "Also, it takes a lot longer to get up North ..... The slow way" - "Clever Trevor" Ian Drury ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 20:41:59 -0800 Subject: Darlingtonia Paper in archive and on CP WEB A copy of Christine Elder's paper on the Reproductive Biology of _Darlingtonia californica_, along with a comprehensive bibliography has been installed on the CP WEB page. Search for "Darlingtonia" and follow the links from there. There is also a copy in the CP mailing list archives under "GET CP darlingtonia" Cheers, -- Rick Walker ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 08:03:39 +0000 Subject: Re: Listserver Help > I have been trying to access archive files on the listserver but all I > get is the following message : > > >No requests found in your message. Requests should be included in the > >body of the mail message. > > > > Ths message body that generated this was > send cp.sellerlist It looks like you want GET, and not SEND. In the following, archive is CP, so you want get CP cp.sellerlist The listserver help includes: get [/password] [parts] ---------------------------------------------------------- Get the requested file from the specified archive. Files are usually split in parts locally, and in such a case you will receive the file in multiple email messages -- an 'index' request tells you how many parts the file has been split into, and their sizes; if you need to obtain certain parts, specify them as optional arguments. If an archive is private, you have to provide its password as well. ---------------------------------------------------------- I see another 54 (!) CP messages waiting for me this morning. I hope that at least 1 or 2 are interesting, unlike last night's batch - I nearly wore out the Delete key. This is the last list which I imagined would ever degenerate into this garbage. Just think of any new subscribers wanting to ask about their VFT. Do you think they will stay subscribers for long? Please wake me up when it is over. -- Clarke Brunt (clarke@brunt.demon.co.uk) ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:38:33 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: nepenthes seed medium > > I just recently received some Nepenthes seed. Can someone tell me what the > best medium is on which to sow it? Any suggestions would be appreciated. > Christoph > Chopped spaghnum. Keep moist but not wet at about 25 centigrades. ,,Michael ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:58:37 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Weeds > >By the way, I m just remembering that Joachim who s also on the list is > >currently experimenting with a peat substitute made from coconut which > >seems to work excellent for Nepenthes.... > > > > I would be very interested to hear what results you get with that > stuff. My SO found some of this peat substitute in a supermarket, I > was planning a major repotting so I decided that I really did not want > to risk the experiment on a major part of my collection. If the > substitute works out then it would be good as it sells for about half > the price of peat here in South Australia. Joachim, what's your comment? A. Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 10:01:59 GMT+1 Subject: Re: nepenthes seed medium Dear Christoph, you wrote: > I just recently received some Nepenthes seed. Can someone tell me what the > best medium is on which to sow it? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Just peat worked fine for me. All the best Andreas P.S.: However the best medium for Nepenthes seeds is a bit of agar with some Knudsen C solution in it ;-) Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 10:04:47 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Seeds&moss > I have been trying to grow > several species of cps from seed after sowing them in peat moss mixed > with vermiculite. While I had great success producing large quantities of > seedlings I also managed to grow an overwhelming amount of moss. I always had the impression that vermiculite promotes the growth of moss and algae. I would'nt use it except for Ping's. Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: Adolf Ceska Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 01:00:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Conservation of Venus Flytrap THE VENUS FLYTRAP TRADE IN NORTH AND SOUTH CAROLINA (Article by Jane C. MacKnight & Vonda Frantz - abbrev.) The Venus Flytrap is a sole representative of the genus Dionaea (its Latin name is D. muscipula Ellis), a member of the Droseraceae family which contains Sundew (Drosera - about 80 spp.), Waterwheel (Aldrovanda - 1 sp.), and Portuguese Sundew (Drosophyllum - 1 sp.). Dionaea muscipula is endemic to a 320-km strip of coastal plain in southeastern North Carolina and northeastern South Carolina where the sandy-peaty, acidic, low-nutrient soils remain wet. Populations decline rapidly when overgrown by shrubs and taller plants. Periodic fires are characteristic of Venus Flytrap habitat. Unless other management techniques are employed, drainage or suppression of fires will cause extirpation of the habitat and Venus Flytrap populations. The Venus Flytrap is traded as a novelty plant in North America, Europe and Asia. In Germany, the plants are also used in a medicine, Carnivora, which is sold as a claimed remedy for cancer and AIDS (Ref.: Walker, M. 1991. The Carnivora cure for cancer, AIDS, and other pathologies. - Townsend Newsletter for Doctors. Stamford, CT, June). The Venus Flytrap is propagated in both the USA and Europe. Methods of propagation - by division, tissue culture, leaf-base culture, from leaf blades or by seeds - are relatively easy and require between one and three years for the plants to reach a marketable size. No commercial propagation or trade in Venus Flytrap was iden- tified in South Carolina. Nine nurseries in North Carolina found to trade in Venus Flytrap were visited or interviewed by telephone. Only one nursery was found to conduct true artificial propagation, while others either propagate by division and continually replenish stock with wild plants or rely entirely on wild-collected plants. Both South and North Carolina have taken measures to protect the species. The laws prohibit collection of Venus Flytrap from public lands, or from private lands without the permission of the landowner. The listing of the Venus Flytrap in CITES Appen- dix II became effective on 11 June 1992 and requires documenta- tion for all international exports and re-exports. All wild- collected plants destined for export require export permits and artificially-propagated plants require a certificate of artifi- cial propagation. Small-scale collecting may occur in South Carolina, but it is not believed to be a serious problem. Illegal collection of wild plants in North Carolina is frequent, widespread and large- scale. The volume of Venus Flytraps collected annually in North Carolina may be as high as several hundred thousand plants. When the habitat of Venus Flytrap was abundant, the impact of collec- tion was probably negligible. But the effects of development - bulldozing and paving of habitat, drainage of large tracks for timber extraction, and fire suppression - have diminished the amount of habitat, and the impact of collection is magnified. The decrease in collecting sites causes each remaining site to be more heavily collected. Recommendations. The long-term preservation of the Venus Flytrap will require a series of measures: 1) Reduce and control collection of wild plants. 2) Enforce state regulations and CITES. 3) Establish more protected areas. (BEN # 88 13-January-1995) ---------------------------------------- ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 10:27:55 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Conservation of Venus Flytrap > In Germany, the plants are also used in a > medicine, Carnivora, which is sold as a claimed remedy for > cancer and AIDS (Ref.: Walker, M. 1991. The Carnivora cure for > cancer, AIDS, and other pathologies. - Townsend Newsletter for > Doctors. Stamford, CT, June). Best to my knowledge this product has been forbidden as some persons have had serious problems after having had injections. It was at least forbidden temporally but might be available again. Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 11:31:07 +0100 Subject: trix Michael, >Collectrix ?! :-) =Pseudo-scientific slang for female collector (cf. _Pinguicula imitatrix_). Just another of these silly Jan-jokes; I fear this will not improve until the end of carniv(or)al. 8-) Kind regards Jan ################### From: Ivo Koudela PGDS-KChF Date: Fri, 13 Jan 95 13:42:06 MEZ Subject: Re: Darlingtonia Paper in archive and on CP WEB Rick, WOuldn't it be possible to store the pictures of CPs also in some other form accessible for us we haven't WWW? Ivo ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:22:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Seeds&moss > Since several people have been mentioning problems with ferns and their > cps I thought I'd add a question of my own. I have been trying to grow > several species of cps from seed after sowing them in peat moss mixed > with vermiculite. While I had great success producing large quantities of > seedlings I also managed to grow an overwhelming amount of moss. This > moss seems to be literally outcompeting my seedlings. The seeds are > almost 6 months old now but seem extremely frail. What hope is their for > their salvation? If I drop the humidity I may get rid of the moss but I > think it will kill these seedlings too. If I pick the moss out by hand > the whole surface comes up carrying away all the cps in it. Are they > doomed? Whill they eventually mature enough to transfer? They are > venus fly traps and 4 species of drosera. Thanks for any help you might > have!! > John > peredur@usa.net John: In the past I have had real problems with the more compact forms of moss when attemping to start seedlings. The moss either chokes the seedling out, or actually grows fast enough to pull the seedling out by the roots as it grows up and around it. For me, what works better is using dried long fiber sphagnum as a medium for starting seeds. (Obviously, soak it for a few hours or so before starting your seeds.) Long fiber sphagnum seems to prevent the other compact forms of moss from getting started and offers a good open surface for seed growth. Tom in Fl > ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:33:29 -0500 Subject: Re: nepenthes seed medium > > > I just recently received some Nepenthes seed. Can someone tell me > what the best medium is on which to sow it? Any suggestions would be > appreciated. Christoph > > I recently received seed from the ICPS seedbank and tried a less than perfect experiment. In the past I have planted Nep seed on live long fiber sphagnum with reasonable results. This time I had two kinds of seed so I took two trays and roughly divided them into thirds. One third was a peat sand mixture, one third was dried long fiber sphagnum (rewetted of course) and the last third was live long fiber sphagnum. The inert mediums were cooked in the microwave to sterilize them. For both species highest germination was on the dried long fiber sphagnum. Contrary to the past, neither species germinated in the live sphagnum, and one species only produced one or two seedlings on the peat/sand medium. There were marked differences in the germination between the two species. As I mentioned this was imperfect, and I have had success in the past with live sphagnum, but it was enough to convince me to use dried sphagnum for at least a portion of my seed. Tom in Fl ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 11:39:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Seeds&moss Hi John, The moss problem is an old one with CP and make it rough on seedlings. You might try trimming the moss back with scissors, and transplant the seedlings to fresh media when they are large enough. My judge of transplant maturity is when I can (with reasonable care) manipulate the plant. Usually it has 5-6 real leaves and around 5 mm in dimension. You will probably never get rid of the moss totally as the spores are air-borne and come in on the breeze. It does make an attractive top dressing for larger plants though. Good Luck! Jeff ################### From: barry@mips3.as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:35:13 -0700 Subject: VFTs in BEN On BEN, the Botanical electronic news service, the following article was posted. For those interested in subscribing I have included header information... Barry ----------------------------- Return-Path: Message-Id: <199501130844.AAA05761@cue.bc.ca> BBBBB EEEEEE NN N ISSN 1188-603X BB B EE NNN N BBBBB EEEEE NN N N BOTANICAL BB B EE NN NN ELECTRONIC BBBBB EEEEEE NN N NEWS No. 88 January 13, 1995 aceska@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Victoria, B.C. ----------------------------------------------------------- Dr. A. Ceska, P.O.Box 8546, Victoria, B.C. Canada V8W 3S2 ----------------------------------------------------------- THE VENUS FLYTRAP TRADE IN NORTH AND SOUTH CAROLINA (Article by Jane C. MacKnight & Vonda Frantz - abbrev.) The Venus Flytrap is a sole representative of the genus Dionaea (its Latin name is D. muscipula Ellis), a member of the Droseraceae family which contains Sundew (Drosera - about 80 spp.), Waterwheel (Aldrovanda - 1 sp.), and Portuguese Sundew (Drosophyllum - 1 sp.). Dionaea muscipula is endemic to a 320-km strip of coastal plain in southeastern North Carolina and northeastern South Carolina where the sandy-peaty, acidic, low-nutrient soils remain wet. Populations decline rapidly when overgrown by shrubs and taller plants. Periodic fires are characteristic of Venus Flytrap habitat. Unless other management techniques are employed, drainage or suppression of fires will cause extirpation of the habitat and Venus Flytrap populations. The Venus Flytrap is traded as a novelty plant in North America, Europe and Asia. In Germany, the plants are also used in a medicine, Carnivora, which is sold as a claimed remedy for cancer and AIDS (Ref.: Walker, M. 1991. The Carnivora cure for cancer, AIDS, and other pathologies. - Townsend Newsletter for Doctors. Stamford, CT, June). The Venus Flytrap is propagated in both the USA and Europe. Methods of propagation - by division, tissue culture, leaf-base culture, from leaf blades or by seeds - are relatively easy and require between one and three years for the plants to reach a marketable size. No commercial propagation or trade in Venus Flytrap was iden- tified in South Carolina. Nine nurseries in North Carolina found to trade in Venus Flytrap were visited or interviewed by telephone. Only one nursery was found to conduct true artificial propagation, while others either propagate by division and continually replenish stock with wild plants or rely entirely on wild-collected plants. Both South and North Carolina have taken measures to protect the species. The laws prohibit collection of Venus Flytrap from public lands, or from private lands without the permission of the landowner. The listing of the Venus Flytrap in CITES Appen- dix II became effective on 11 June 1992 and requires documenta- tion for all international exports and re-exports. All wild- collected plants destined for export require export permits and artificially-propagated plants require a certificate of artifi- cial propagation. Small-scale collecting may occur in South Carolina, but it is not believed to be a serious problem. Illegal collection of wild plants in North Carolina is frequent, widespread and large- scale. The volume of Venus Flytraps collected annually in North Carolina may be as high as several hundred thousand plants. When the habitat of Venus Flytrap was abundant, the impact of collec- tion was probably negligible. But the effects of development - bulldozing and paving of habitat, drainage of large tracks for timber extraction, and fire suppression - have diminished the amount of habitat, and the impact of collection is magnified. The decrease in collecting sites causes each remaining site to be more heavily collected. Recommendations. The long-term preservation of the Venus Flytrap will require a series of measures: 1) Reduce and control collection of wild plants. 2) Enforce state regulations and CITES. 3) Establish more protected areas. ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 12:56:30 -0500 Subject: Re: We can save the world (wa... Dear Andreas, Whenever you may find your self in CAlifornia, go see Rod McClellens. He has something like 3 or 7 acres under glass doing just that with orchids. It's a hoot to walk by the greenhouses with all the ferris wheels going... Since orchids don't bloom for 3-5 years, everyone can see where this might be a big investment. The place has some history, I don't remember if it's been doing TC for 25 or 50 years. Becky ################### From: "Jeffrey Michael Stein" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 13:59:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: self-intro > > My name is John Romeiser and I have been interested in CP off and on for > many years. I have experience growing Venus Flytraps, pitcher plants, and > sundews. Since I have been out of the growing business for quite a while, > I would like to know where I can order plants, bulbs, etc. > Are there any plants in particular that you want? People on the net often have extra's that they'll give away (maybe charge for postage). One of the main ideas of this net is to help spread culitvated plant material. JMS ################### From: NBS/Haleakala Field Station Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:31:44 -1000 Subject: BEN # 88 (fwd) fyi ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philip A. Thomas - National Biological Service - Haleakala N.P. Field Station [** Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent **] [** the position of the National Biological Service or my employer! **] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- To: ben@cue.bc.ca BBBBB EEEEEE NN N ISSN 1188-603X BB B EE NNN N BBBBB EEEEE NN N N BOTANICAL BB B EE NN NN ELECTRONIC BBBBB EEEEEE NN N NEWS No. 88 January 13, 1995 aceska@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Victoria, B.C. ----------------------------------------------------------- Dr. A. Ceska, P.O.Box 8546, Victoria, B.C. Canada V8W 3S2 ----------------------------------------------------------- SENIOR WATERSHED ECOLOGIST FOR THE CITY OF SEATTLE, WA Supervise and lead biology professionals to plan and implement programs in forest and watershed ecology for City of Seattle Water Department. Develop cooperative research programs and environmental plans with universities, Indian tribes, and agencies. Work with multidisciplinary staff to design timber sales and create long-term programs to protect, rehabilitate, and restore aquatic and terrestrial ecosystems. Requires a B.S. in natural sciences plus 5 years of experience in a related field involving developing, conducting, and super- vising field monitoring, research, and habitat management in wildlife biology, fisheries, or ecology. Related M.S. or Ph.D. involving research is preferred and may substitute for 3 years of experience. Salary $3,787/month. Send your resume by January 24, 1995, to S. Bergstrand, Seattle Personnel Dept., 1292 Dexter Horton Building, Seattle, WA, U.S.A., 98104-1793. AA/EOE. THE VENUS FLYTRAP TRADE IN NORTH AND SOUTH CAROLINA (Article by Jane C. MacKnight & Vonda Frantz - abbrev.) The Venus Flytrap is a sole representative of the genus Dionaea (its Latin name is D. muscipula Ellis), a member of the Droseraceae family which contains Sundew (Drosera - about 80 spp.), Waterwheel (Aldrovanda - 1 sp.), and Portuguese Sundew (Drosophyllum - 1 sp.). Dionaea muscipula is endemic to a 320-km strip of coastal plain in southeastern North Carolina and northeastern South Carolina where the sandy-peaty, acidic, low-nutrient soils remain wet. Populations decline rapidly when overgrown by shrubs and taller plants. Periodic fires are characteristic of Venus Flytrap habitat. Unless other management techniques are employed, drainage or suppression of fires will cause extirpation of the habitat and Venus Flytrap populations. The Venus Flytrap is traded as a novelty plant in North America, Europe and Asia. In Germany, the plants are also used in a medicine, Carnivora, which is sold as a claimed remedy for cancer and AIDS (Ref.: Walker, M. 1991. The Carnivora cure for cancer, AIDS, and other pathologies. - Townsend Newsletter for Doctors. Stamford, CT, June). The Venus Flytrap is propagated in both the USA and Europe. Methods of propagation - by division, tissue culture, leaf-base culture, from leaf blades or by seeds - are relatively easy and require between one and three years for the plants to reach a marketable size. No commercial propagation or trade in Venus Flytrap was iden- tified in South Carolina. Nine nurseries in North Carolina found to trade in Venus Flytrap were visited or interviewed by telephone. Only one nursery was found to conduct true artificial propagation, while others either propagate by division and continually replenish stock with wild plants or rely entirely on wild-collected plants. Both South and North Carolina have taken measures to protect the species. The laws prohibit collection of Venus Flytrap from public lands, or from private lands without the permission of the landowner. The listing of the Venus Flytrap in CITES Appen- dix II became effective on 11 June 1992 and requires documenta- tion for all international exports and re-exports. All wild- collected plants destined for export require export permits and artificially-propagated plants require a certificate of artifi- cial propagation. Small-scale collecting may occur in South Carolina, but it is not believed to be a serious problem. Illegal collection of wild plants in North Carolina is frequent, widespread and large- scale. The volume of Venus Flytraps collected annually in North Carolina may be as high as several hundred thousand plants. When the habitat of Venus Flytrap was abundant, the impact of collec- tion was probably negligible. But the effects of development - bulldozing and paving of habitat, drainage of large tracks for timber extraction, and fire suppression - have diminished the amount of habitat, and the impact of collection is magnified. The decrease in collecting sites causes each remaining site to be more heavily collected. Recommendations. The long-term preservation of the Venus Flytrap will require a series of measures: 1) Reduce and control collection of wild plants. 2) Enforce state regulations and CITES. 3) Establish more protected areas. THE NEXT ISSUE OF BEN will bring an article on Plenterung, one form of selective logging, written exclusively for BEN by Prof.Dr. Rudolf W. Becking. ################### From: eheick@acs.bu.edu Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 19:49:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: nepenthes seed medium Thanks for the help, on the Nep seed medium, wish me luck. Andreas, can you email me your newest list? My email address is eheick@acs.bu.edu I apologize for doing this over the list, but I have had no success getting through to you. Christoph ################### From: Peter Cole Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 18:09:37 GMT Subject: liverworts Brett Lymn said: >The problem is weeds. I have a > couple of varieties that seem to be endemic in my collection and no > matter how hard I try I cannot get rid of them! One weed is, I > believe, called liverwort - it is a thick green leaf that sits on the > top of the peat, the underside is a mat of fine roots. ... > The other weed I do not know the name of. It is > a rosette of thin stalks with small spiky leaves arranged in bunches > up the stalk, mostly decumbent up rises up at the end of the stalk > where the flower/seed head is borne. .... (stuff deleted for space) >Anyone got any good ideas about how I > can cope with these pests? What's wrong with liverworts? If you leave them long enough you get pretty little 'palm trees' ( flowers? ) growing up from the main leaf. They don't seem to do any harm, and are a good indicator of moisture - if the liverworts go crispy, it's time to water your CPs :) The other spiky weed - damned if I know. They're fully hardy and resistant to drying out though the roots aren't too invasive - they pull out if you're careful. I guess from your description they're the same as mine - I haven't seen mine produce flowers yet, but it's sort of like a miniature terrestrial pondweed ( Aldrovanda without the traps. ) They don't seem to like shaded pots though... If you ask me though, the worst pest of all is U. Sandersonii - I mean, short of napalm, how do you get it out of other pots? Peter Cole | carnivor@bunyip.demon.co.uk | If Pavlov had used cats, the Swansea,WALES | new mailbox, same account | world would be a very different old mailboxes still active place... ################### From: Peter Cole Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 18:09:56 GMT Subject: WWW access Sorry if this isn't exactly CP related - it seems relevant in view of the confusion there seems to be over accessing the WWW site. Michael Hasemann said: >> Perhaps what we need is an "infomercial" page in the WWW page so that >> people who want to buy plants can browse this. Anyone interested in >> buying plants could be pointed at the WWW page. > or do put this list on the ftp server (for those who do not have access to > WWW). Aah, but we do have access to the WWW - yes, everyone on this list! If you haven't got a browser of your own, there are telnet WWW servers at : info.cern.ch eies2.njit.edu vms.huji.ac.il and info.funet.fi No telnet? OK, try the webmailer ( and if you haven't got Email, how the hell are you reading this? :) Send a message to : agora@mail.w3.org with no subject and HELP as the body for details. This is more straightforward than the telnet servers ( well, I prefer it. ) I still haven't figured out if the pix are in any way reachable, but you can get the .html pages as ascii or even as source for offline browsing with suitable software ( it preserves the links to other pages too :) Enjoy, Peter Cole | carnivor@bunyip.demon.co.uk | if you have any problems, Swansea, WALES | new mailbox, same account | feel free to drop me a line... old mailboxes still active ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 95 21:15 EST Subject: VFTs in BEN Speaking of VFTs in Tenn., I seem to recall someone posting here a year ago to say that they knew of a bog (in Tennessee I think) to which VFTs had been introduced. The VFTs had proliferated and "taken over" the bog. Has this been further substantiated? Michael ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 95 21:53 EST Subject: Liverworts! > > What's wrong with liverworts? If you leave them long enough you > get pretty little 'palm trees' ( flowers? ) growing up from the > main leaf. They don't seem to do any harm, and are a good > indicator of moisture - if the liverworts go crispy, it's time > to water your CPs :) > I mean, short of napalm, how do you get it out of other pots? Those pretty little 'palm trees' are the dreaded archegoniophores of the invasive _Marchantia polymorpha_! Beware! If you though the prolific gemmae cups were effective at spreading the brood, just wait till those archegoniophores open their bomb bays loaded with spores! Look around your collection and you may find both palm trees (archegonio- phores) and umbrellas (antheridiophores). The antheridiophores produce the sperm cells which must swim across to another plant bearing archegoniophores, and then swim up the stalk of the archegoniophore to ferilize the egg cells nestled under the "palm fronds". The zygote develops into the sporophyte, which is little more than a cluster-bomb full of spores. Really though, liverworts are at least as interesting as another variety of Drosera spathulata. Don't kill them, collect them! Michael (PS. about my reference to carnivorous (man-eating!) liverworts... that post was just a joke! :-) (PPS. anyone got hornworts _Anthoceros_, _Notothylas_, Dendroceros_, or _Megoceros_ in their weed collection?) ################### From: Dan Sorensen 814-757-9382 Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 00:54:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE:Chris's nepenthes cuttings On Jan 11 Chris wrote: >With that in mind, I am getting ready to whack back my plants. I plan on >keeping a few cutting for my experiments, but I don't have room for them all. >So if you want cuttings of the following plants and are willing to pay for >postage, they can be yours. The cuttings will be from: >N.mirabilis (Thai variety) >N.ventricosa (a very nice specimen) >N.alata (also, a nice specimen) >I plan on doing the deed in February or March, depending on the weather. >So if you want some of the cuttings, respond between now and then. I am interested in a cutting or two. I would E-mail directly, but my messages don't show the writer's address on messages from the list unless they include it in the body of the message. Sorry. So Chris, send me your address & maybe we can arrange something? Dan DSORENSE@psupen.psu.edu Russell, PA ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 20:22:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Weeds in CPs My most common weed in my CP pots is Erica or Calluna (known as Heather over here). I assume these were residents of wherever the peat came from. They are not a nuisance - if one grows too big that I can't pull it up without disturbing the CP, then I just cut it off at ground level. I have even transplanted some to grow and flower separately. I was slightly surprised that these seem happy in a water tray along with CP (and no plant food) - I had assumed that they normally grew in dryish conditions. -- Clarke Brunt (clarke@brunt.demon.co.uk) ################### From: John Taylor Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 21:48:20 +1100 Subject: Re: Weeds. >> Next time sterilize the media beforehand > >Once I tried sterilizing peat before sowing CP-seeds on it hoping to have >less problems with algae or mold. The opposite was true! Never before have >I observed such a quick growth of these. I suppose that boiling breaks >down the peat, probably by opening still closed cells within the remainder >of Sphagnum. Keeping this substrate under non sterile conditions after >boiling as e.g. your propagating case makes it a good medium for these. >Have other people observed similar things? I have tried boiling water to prevent algae growth in both pots and once for aquatic Utrics - didn't work either! I've had some serious outbreaks on algae on sphagnum too. Often the best way is to put up with moss smothering the plants as this seems to keep the algae at bay... The only time I had bad mould growth (in the peat) was after boiling water sterilization for Nepenthes seed germination - this particular tray was kept indoors under "Gladwrap" with bottom heat, so it was ideal conditions for it (but not the Nepenthes...) I've also had quite a few ferns (at least a couple of types) and a mystery plant which resembles heath is currently growing in one of the Sarracenia pots. I consider these bonuses - but they only seem to thrive when they share my CP pots :-( +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John Taylor [Catweasel] | Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | rphjt@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au | Department of Applied Physics | | | Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: John Taylor Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 22:01:29 +1100 Subject: Re: Summer and Tuberous Drosera >Well all, > > [lines deleted...] > >You can tell it's summer though because the bushfires have >started. Here's only hoping we don't have a really bad one. Or rather, the arsonists have started up yet again... :-( >No wonder the tuberous Drosera choose this time to stay underground. >Hopefully the fires will stimulate the Drosera into even better >growth and germination. > >Cheers >Terry Which reminds me... There was an article recently in one of the general gardening magazines about smoke treatment of seeds to improve germination rates. They showed a photo comparing two trays of Stylidium (triggerplant) seedling (one treated, one not) and germination rates appeared to be at least double. Other difficult species (such as some Kangaroo Paws) also responded well. This method could be worth investigating for treatment of Byblis and maybe even tuberous Drosera seed. I don't have the article on me (I just had a quick flick-through in the shop) but I could get it and post a summary if there's enough interest. BFN +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John Taylor [Catweasel] | Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | rphjt@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au | Department of Applied Physics | | | Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: Peter Cole Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 13:11:33 GMT Subject: (none) Quoth Andreas Wistuba: > By the way, I m just remembering that Joachim who s also on the list is > currently experimenting with a peat substitute made from coconut which > seems to work excellent for Nepenthes.... I've been using Coia (sp?) peat substitute for a couple of years for some of my plants ( Drosera, Sarracenia and Dionaea. ) Seems fine. It mixes better than regular peat ( fewer hard lumps, ) and has a nice fibrous consistency. I would be careful introducing new species to it, but I hope to get there in the end - it's a bit friendlier to the environment than peat. Probably carries fewer spore/seed contaminants too - it hasn't been sitting in a bog gathering them for centuries. Good growing, Peter Cole | carnivor@bunyip.demon.co.uk | Give it a try - you might Swansea, WALES | new mailbox, old account | like it... ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 14:36:06 -0800 Subject: Vermiculite, Seed media, Crossposting, Web access > I always had the impression that vermiculite promotes the growth of > moss and algae. I would'nt use it except for Ping's. Vermiculite is an alkaline media. It is inappropriate for CP except for certain pings (mostly the mexican varieties). Perlite is neutral and can be used to improve the drainage and aereation of your soil mix. Some have recently mentioned the problem that occurs when peat or sphagnum is sterilized by heat. I have heard some speculation that steam sterilization may rupture cells in the medium and release an abundance of carbohydrates (sugars). This triggers a bloom of mold growth. For this reason, it may be more advisable *not* to sterilize your media, but instead set up seed trays a year in advance. Once the mold has run its course and used up all the available sugars in the media, homeostasis sets in where the various microrganisms are in a state of equalibrium. Sowing seeds onto this "pre-aged" media may result in lower infection rates than either "new" peat from the bag, or steam sterilized media. I have noticed a similiar problem in my aquatic Utric tanks. For some months after initial filling, I have a bad algae problem. If I leave the tank alone (don't change the water, etc), it will eventually clear up and reach equilibrium once the excess nutrients have been used up. This results in crystal-clear water, with a 1/4" layer of green scum and bacteria in the bottom of the tank. > THE VENUS FLYTRAP TRADE IN NORTH AND SOUTH CAROLINA > From: TRAFFIC Bulletin 13(2): 68-72. > (Article by Jane C. MacKnight & Vonda Frantz - abbrev.) *Three* different people posted copies of this article to the mailing list. I was able to catch it in time to delete the extra postings so that users in DIGEST mode only got one copy. (To avoid this problem in the future, please don't repost big articles from other mailing lists. Send them to me for inclusion in the CP archive, and merely post a summary of the information to the group, with a note that they can get the whole thing from the archive.) If you are not running in DIGEST mode, I can't provide any of this sort of benign "censorship", so you got all three. Sorry about that. I very much recommend using DIGEST mode for this reason, and also to reduce the mess in your mailbox. In DIGEST mode you will only get one posting per day, with all the postings bundled together. If you have been considering UNSUBSCRIBING due to the heavy mail load, try DIGEST mode for some relief. To set this up, send the message: "SET CP MAIL DIGEST" to "listserv@opus.hpl.hp.com". >From Ivo: > WOuldn't it be possible to store the pictures of CPs also in > some other form accessible for us we haven't WWW? Your question was answered by the Peter Cole's recent posting. You can now use various telnet servers to access the CP WEB info. Best regards, -- Rick Walker ################### From: wim@djo.wtm.tudelft.nl (Wim Osterholt) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 02:38:53 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: WWW access Peter Coler said: > > Aah, but we do have access to the WWW - yes, everyone on this > list! If you haven't got a browser of your own, there are telnet > WWW servers at : > info.cern.ch > eies2.njit.edu > vms.huji.ac.il > and info.funet.fi > Sorry Rick, don't be too optimistic. The stuff needs to be in the listserver. info.cern.ch is out of the game. eies2.njit.edu is out of the game either. vms.huji.ac.il will drive you crazy. info.funet.fi sometimes offers access to lynx, so you won't see GIF's. Worse, you won't be able to download files because they will end up in Finland (IF you already have write access). Mailing was disabled. > No telnet? OK, try the webmailer ( and if you haven't got Email, > how the hell are you reading this? :) Send a message to : > > agora@mail.w3.org > > with no subject and HELP as the body for details. And this I still have to try. Regards, Wim. ----- wim@djo.wtm.tudelft.nl ----- (wim@morgana.gds.nl) ################### From: MZieg1234@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 16:00:47 -0500 Subject: Culture contamination? Whenever I have put venus flytrap into sterile agar culture, I have had enormous problems getting sterile tissue. This has not been a problem with other non-carnivorous species. Is this just a passing observation of no import or could it be that the carnivorous species can utilize microflora for nutrition! Does anyone have any experience or feedback concerning this? ################### From: "Jeffrey Michael Stein" Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 17:06:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Contamination. > > > Whenever I have put venus flytrap into sterile agar culture, I have > had enormous problems getting sterile tissue. This has not been a > problem with other non-carnivorous species. Is this just a passing > observation of no import or could it be that the carnivorous species > can utilize microflora for nutrition! Does anyone have any experience > or feedback concerning this? > > _Dionaea_ is the most commonly CP grown in vitro. It has been succesfully grown for many years. There may just be a problem with your sterilation technique. Do you start from tissue or from seeds? I've never successfully sterilized the tissue without massive die-off. But the seeds go quite well. I've never seen any documentation about symbiotic, or non-symbiotic for that matter, relationships between CP and microflora (fungii included). Do CP have mycrorrhizal fungii symbiosis as other plants do? Sounds like a thesis topic. JMS ################### From: Peter Cole Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 13:00:16 GMT Subject: telnet webserver Wim: > Sorry Rick, don't be too optimistic. The stuff needs to be in the > listserver. > info.cern.ch is out of the game. Typical - they've gone and moved it - it's now at: telnet.w3.org just log on and type GO . The on-line manual says it will run in interactive mode ( for entering search patterns and the like I suppose, ) but I haven't figured out how yet, so haven't delved into the database proper. No pictures yet, ( at least I couldn't get at Rick's portrait. ) There appears to be a client program available to download files from the site via telnet - details on the server ( I haven't had time to check it out. ) This may be required for interactive mode...? > eies2.njit.edu is out of the game either. > vms.huji.ac.il will drive you crazy. Have to confess I haven't tried these two myself. I'm told they were working recently... > info.funet.fi sometimes offers access to lynx, so you won't see GIF's. But lynx will let you download gifs - you just can't see them laid out on the page... > Worse, you won't be able to download files because they > will end up in Finland (IF you already have write access). ...but that would be a bit of a problem. > Mailing was disabled. Hmmm, perhaps if a few of us asked them very nicely... :) >> No telnet? OK, try the webmailer ( and if you haven't got Email, >> how the hell are you reading this? :) Send a message to : >> >> agora@mail.w3.org >> >> with no subject and HELP as the body for details. > And this I still have to try. If you're using Lynx I don't expect you'll want to stick with it, but it's better than nothing if you've only got Email. I don't know if it will run interactively - I mailed the admin, but haven't heard back yet. Have fun, Peter Cole | carnivor@bunyip.demon.co.uk | Fun, fun, fun! Swansea, WALES | new mailbox, new account | ################### From: Peter Cole Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 00:16:43 GMT Subject: wordsearch And the winner is ( drum roll, ) Jan Schlauer!! Congratulations! ( sorry about the spelling mistake - fortunately noone missed that one :) Peter Cole | carnivor@bunyip.demon.co.uk | solution available via Email Swansea, WALES | new mailbox, same account | for anyone who wants it. ################### From: blymn@awadi.com.AU (Brett Lymn) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 12:54:20 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Liverworts! According to Michael.Chamberland: > >> >> What's wrong with liverworts? If you leave them long enough you >> get pretty little 'palm trees' ( flowers? ) growing up from the >> main leaf. They don't seem to do any harm, and are a good >> indicator of moisture - if the liverworts go crispy, it's time >> to water your CPs :) >> I mean, short of napalm, how do you get it out of other pots? > >Those pretty little 'palm trees' are the dreaded archegoniophores of the >invasive _Marchantia polymorpha_! Beware! If you though the prolific >gemmae cups were effective at spreading the brood, just wait till those >archegoniophores open their bomb bays loaded with spores! > >Look around your collection and you may find both palm trees (archegonio- >phores) and umbrellas (antheridiophores). The antheridiophores produce >the sperm cells which must swim across to another plant bearing >archegoniophores, and then swim up the stalk of the archegoniophore >to ferilize the egg cells nestled under the "palm fronds". The zygote >develops into the sporophyte, which is little more than a cluster-bomb >full of spores. > >Really though, liverworts are at least as interesting as another >variety of Drosera spathulata. Don't kill them, collect them! > Yeesh - Personally I just want to get rid of the stuff! When I first saw the thing I thought it looked ok and was not bothering my plants _but_ when the rotten stuff fills the pot such that you cannot see the peat and stops the new leaves of my sarraceniae coming up then I tend to feel just a bit aggro towards it. That thick leaf and solid root mass seem to make an almost inpenetrable barrier. -- Brett Lymn, Computer Systems Administrator, AWA Defence Industries =============================================================================== "Also, it takes a lot longer to get up North ..... The slow way" - "Clever Trevor" Ian Drury ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 14:48:20 +0000 Subject: Re: Coir (Coconut fibre) Several mentions of using Coir (Coconut fibre) for CPs as an alternative to peat (which has been getting a bad press in the UK for several years due to destruction of bogs). I have only seen Coir sold as a complete potting medium for normal plants, so I assumed it had fertilizer, and maybe lime, included. Did those of you trying it find a variety which was just the straight stuff, or did you just try it anyway? I guess I might as well try some Drosera in each of the two varieties of Coir soil I have to hand. -- Clarke Brunt (clarke@brunt.demon.co.uk) ################### From: blymn@awadi.com.AU (Brett Lymn) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 18:24:02 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Coir (Coconut fibre) According to Clarke Brunt: > >Several mentions of using Coir (Coconut fibre) for CPs >as an alternative to peat (which has been getting a bad >press in the UK for several years due to destruction of >bogs). > Hmmm when you say coir that cojures up in my mind fibrous stuff, where you can see the strands - it is available here to be used as lining for hanging baskets. The alternative peat I saw looked a lot like peat, in fact I believed it was peat until I read the fine print (thought the texture was not _quite_ right). Are we talking the same stuff here? -- Brett Lymn, Computer Systems Administrator, AWA Defence Industries =============================================================================== "Also, it takes a lot longer to get up North ..... The slow way" - "Clever Trevor" Ian Drury ################### From: Ivo Koudela PGDS-KChF Date: Mon, 16 Jan 95 9:18:48 MEZ Subject: WWW... Rick, Wouldn't be possible to store the pictures of CPs also in some other form accessible for us we haven't a WWW account? Ivo ################### From: Ivo Koudela PGDS-KChF Date: Mon, 16 Jan 95 9:24:57 MEZ Subject: Re: Vermiculite, Seed media, Crossposting, Web access Rick, Sorry for sending my question again. I thought it hadn't gone through as it had returned. Thanks for your patience...:-) Ivo ################### From: MWM@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 10:43:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Alternative growing media I have on occassion received nepenthes cuttings rooted in hydrophilic rockwool. They seem to do well, although I was cautioned that not all species like it. The longevity of rockwool seems a plus in ease of repotting with minimal shock to the plant. Any comments? Mike ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 18:34:30 +0100 Subject: cancer warning! (was Re: Alternative growing media) Mike! > I have on occassion received nepenthes cuttings rooted in hydrophilic >rockwool. They seem to do well, although I was cautioned that not all species >like it. One of the species who do allegedly not like it is _Homo sapiens_. Indeed, rockwool fines are suspected to increase the risk of pneumonic cancer if inhaled (nearly as dangerous as asbestos fibres). It is only considered dangerous to handle (dry) rockwool in large amounts without protection for protracted periods of time so far but you should be careful, anyway. Avoid (ingestion or) inhalation. You do not need to throw any plants away, but I would not recommend rockwool as a growing media for the reason mentioned. This message is not a joke (for a change). Kind regards Jan ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 14:54:57 -0800 Subject: Mycorhizial fungi and Web access Jeffrey writes: > I've never seen any documentation about > symbiotic, or non-symbiotic for that matter, relationships between CP > and microflora (fungii included). Do CP have mycrorrhizal fungii > symbiosis as other plants do? Sounds like a thesis topic. This is curious. I just put some Drosophyllum seeds into culture. (0.5MS) The sterilization in one flask was inadequate and I now have a baby-food jar completely overun with what looks like pure white mycelium. The interesting thing is that the seedlings seem to be thriving! They are now 2cm tall with healthy red glands. Could this fungus be some beneficial symbiont? Maybe I should bottle it and sell it as a Drosophyllum soil innoculant :-). Ivo writes: > Wouldn't be possible to store the pictures of CPs also in some other > form accessible for us we haven't a WWW account? I'll see what I can do. The main web page is not on the internal HP network so it is a hassle to get information back and forth. Maybe I can automate this somehow. Somehow each photo must be usefully indexed and kept with its corresponding caption and copyright notice. The pictures currently have names like: "0047.gif", and are only described by reference to a modified copy of Jan's world CP list. The idea was not to make a directory of CP "clipart", but to provide an interactive database for coherently organizing a huge collection of CP text and graphics. We have 2 Gigabytes set aside for the CP database project. This is much more than anyone would really want to download. We don't even have this much space on the listserv machine itself. If you can wait a year or so, we're hoping to put a snapshot of this thing on CD-ROM for home/school use. ... Hmm. maybe I could run a listserv-web gateway here? The listserver can be set up to run any shell script. I could make a program access the local CP database and link it into the listserv. You could run it something like: RUN CP my_password CP_QUERY "Sarracenia" This would return an html-formatted excerpt from the database for all Sarracenia entries. Inside this file would be references to various GIFS. These could be gotten with something like: RUN CP my_password CP_GETGIF "0049.gif" any comments? -- Rick ################### From: wim@djo.wtm.tudelft.nl (Wim Osterholt) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 00:21:27 +0100 (MET) Subject: web access Rick writes: > > I'll see what I can do. The main web page is not on the internal > HP network so it is a hassle to get information back and forth. Maybe > I can automate this somehow. > ... Hmm. maybe I could run a listserv-web gateway here? The listserver > can be set up to run any shell script. I could make a program access the > local CP database and link it into the listserv. You could run it > something like: > > RUN CP my_password CP_QUERY "Sarracenia" > > This would return an html-formatted excerpt from the database for all > Sarracenia entries. Inside this file would be references to various > GIFS. These could be gotten with something like: > > RUN CP my_password CP_GETGIF "0049.gif" > > any comments? Looks nice. You don't mention this here, but don't forget that the binaries have to be encoded (preferrably uuencoded) before mailing. (Normal mail generally won't handle 8-bits transfers correctly.) The receiver then has to decode (uudecode) the message to extract the binary. The binary can be shown by viewers as QPEG or CSHOW (on DOS machines). Regards, Wim. ----- wim@djo.wtm.tudelft.nl ----- (wim@morgana.gds.nl) ################### From: "Jeffrey Michael Stein" Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 18:50:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Mycorhizial fungi Rick, > > This is curious. > > I just put some Drosophyllum seeds into culture. (0.5MS) > The sterilization in one flask was inadequate and I now have a baby-food > jar completely overun with what looks like pure white mycelium. > > The interesting thing is that the seedlings seem to be thriving! They > are now 2cm tall with healthy red glands. Could this fungus be some > beneficial symbiont? > > Maybe I should bottle it and sell it as a Drosophyllum soil innoculant :-). Do you know any mycologists? They might be able to id your fungi and then would be able to give you some information on the genus (maybe even species) in question. Maybe lead to a conclusion about symbiosis. If you don't know anyone, I do, as others probably do. JMS ################### From: Brian Jones Date: Mon, 16 Jan 95 18:15:25 PST Subject: Re: Web Access Rick: Using the listserver would be usefull to those, like myself, who don't have a T-1 or PPP access to the net (yet); although I'm not sure how to read html formatted stuff. -BJ ################### From: Harold Slater Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 22:36:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Web Access On Mon, 16 Jan 1995, Brian Jones wrote: > Rick: > Using the listserver would be usefull to those, like myself, who don't > have a T-1 or PPP access to the net (yet); although I'm not sure how > to read html formatted stuff. > -BJ If your server uses Lynx (text based browser) then to get to the Web site press the letter 'g' which prompts for URL to go to and just type http:\\www.hpl.hp.com/browser/modified.html. Gets you right to the CP stuff. It does for me anyway. The only problem I've found is that it sometimes is too busy. harold ################### From: Brian Jones Date: Mon, 16 Jan 95 19:51:54 PST Subject: Re: Web Access > > On Mon, 16 Jan 1995, Brian Jones wrote: > > > Rick: > > Using the listserver would be usefull to those, like myself, who don't > > have a T-1 or PPP access to the net (yet); although I'm not sure how > > to read html formatted stuff. > > -BJ > > If your server uses Lynx (text based browser) then to get to the Web > site press the letter 'g' which prompts for URL to go to and just type > http:\\www.hpl.hp.com/browser/modified.html. Gets you right to the CP > stuff. It does for me anyway. The only problem I've found is that it > sometimes is too busy. > > harold > Nope, No Lynx. I do have gopher. Will that work? -BJ ################### From: nkenny@earthlink.net Date: Mon, 16 Jan 95 23:25 PST Subject: Hello Hi our names are Neal & Magdalena, we are delighted to be new members of your group. Both of us are newcommers to the study and proagation of CP's. We are seeking support in acquiring our first CP, and tips on it's proper care. We are also interested in finding written resources to assist us in our studies. Any information you can provide will be greatly appreciated. Thank you. ################### From: Martin.Zevenbergen@ALGEM.PT.WAU.NL Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:14:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: re:Hello Dear Neal & Magdalena, I can send you some Drosera dielsiana seed within one week or so (I was so stupid to throw away all te old flower stalks from my plants last week) for seed of the other species, D. capensis D. intermedia 'cuba' and D.spatulata you have to be patient. I also have to divide my Utricularia alpina, so you can have a piece, but I don't know if it's possible to send it without CITES and phytosanitary papers (otherwise it will become a little bit expensive). Anybody else on this list knows? BTW, you have to give me your adress if I send it to you, mail it to me personally, my mail adress: Martin.Zevenbergen@algem.pt.wau.nl About books: I can recommend Adrian Slack's book: insect-eating plants & how to grow them (already a classic) ISBN 0 906670 42 X. Martin ################### From: Christopher Waldrop Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 07:35:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Mycorhizial fungi and Web access > This would return an html-formatted excerpt from the database for all > Sarracenia entries. Inside this file would be references to various > GIFS. These could be gotten with something like: > > RUN CP my_password CP_GETGIF "0049.gif" For those of us without web access, this would be a wonderful thing if you could get it to work. As far as I know there's no way to get the pictures where they are with my system. ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 09:47:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Alternative growing media > > > I have on occassion received nepenthes cuttings rooted in > hydrophilic > rockwool. They seem to do well, although I was cautioned that not all > species like it. The longevity of rockwool seems a plus in ease of > repotting with minimal shock to the plant. Any comments? > > > Mike > > Mike: Several observations: I recently potted several cuttings of N. kampotiana, two were in rockwool and three were in live sphagnum. Although all survived, I felt the growth in the sphagnum was better. Among other things, the rockwool did not stay firmly packed around the stem of the cutting. Any movement of the bag tended to make the cutting move around, potentially injuring the newly forming roots. The growth of the rockwool cuttings was also a little slower, but not a great big difference. I eventually removed all the rockwool I could and added sphagnum. The other concern is getting rid of the rockwool, because its so dense and matted, you can't really pull it off the plant because you can't separate it to see the roots. So if you use it, it seems like you are stuck with it. Tom in Fl ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:16:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seed Experiences II Hi Folks! The general consensus on Doug and Vivi Rowland's operation is positive (4 responses). 1) the amount of seed per packet is large. 2) germination rates of 50-75% 3) good customer service 4) Although located in the UK, they also accept personal checks in US$. 5) about 105 varieties listed Neutrals: Main catalog emphasis on Succulents Negatives: Occasional failure of "easy" species. Address: Doug and Vivi Rowland 200 Spring Road, Kempston Bedford, England MK42 8ND Standard Disclaimer. Jeff ################### From: Martin=Zevenbergen%Algem%PT.WAU@Vines2.WAU.NL Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 16:42:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: P. morrii some days ago there was a question about the name Pinguicula morrii, if this is a published name. Well, I searched in the Index Kewensis on CD-rom, and there isn't a P. morrii. The only resembling name is P. moranensis. For everybody who doesn't know what the Index Kewensis is: this is a list with all the published plant names since 1753, when Linnaeus published his Species Plantarum. In this list are also included all the rejected names (e.g. later published synonyms). The only other possibility left is that P. morrii was an invalid publication (according to the ICBN (=International Code for Botanical Nomenclature)), but I think this isn't likely. ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 17:44:12 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Alternative growing media > Among other things, > the rockwool did not stay firmly packed around the stem of the cutting. Any > movement of the bag tended to make the cutting move around, potentially > injuring the newly forming roots. I observed the same, if Nepenthes were growing in volcanic soil. I once was given a plant perfectly growing when visiting another grower in Germany. I transported the plant to my home by car (around 2 hours drive) After that the plant did not grow any more. A check after some weeks showed that most of the roots were broken or cut by the sharp lava particles. I think some soft substance in the medium like peat, Sphagnum, bark... helps to prevent such damage which otherwise may occur when moving plants. Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 17:46:34 GMT+1 Subject: CD-ROM > Well, I searched in the Index Kewensis on CD-rom.... How much is the CD-ROM? Where can one get it? How often are the updates published? Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 95 12:29 EST Subject: CD-ROM Last I saw, the Index Kewensis ROM CD was over $1000 US. And that's only one disk! Michael ################### From: jford@ruacad.ac.runet.edu Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 12:52:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Index Kewensis I was also interested on possibly getting Index Kewensis on CD-ROM until I saw the price posted here! So much for that idea. I would really like to have access to the Index data - does anyone know if there is a gopher or telnet site out there that offers the Index? I would really like to have it immediately available at home, but $1000 is an awful lot for convenience sake, so I'm sure I sure I could live with on-line access of some sort if it's available. :) TIA John jford@ruacad.ac.runet.edu ################### From: Alexander Salomon Date: Tue, 17 Jan 95 13:51:04 EST Subject: Nepenthes at the US Botanical Gardens For those who live in the DC area who have never seen a Nepenthes in flower, the US Botanical Gardens have 3 specimens, one of which is currently sending up an inflorescence. There are 2 hybrids and one species which can be found in the Bromeliad room. You have to look for them though. The one that is flowering is on the left side as you face the adjoining cactus room. It is low to the ground. It is too early to say if it is male or female. It is labelled Nepenthe s burkeii, though upon examination, I think it may be N. ventricosa. The few remaining pitchers are somewhat dry, so it is difficult to assess for certain, but on exam, the pitchers do not appear to have a pubescent surface, which I am told is one of the major differences between the two species. Some say they are variants of the same species. In any case, while there, if it isnt too cold be sure and look outside at the pitcher bog. The S. leucophyllas still are quite attractive in light of the mild(so far) Winter and the protected location in which they are situated. The S.purpureas of course look reasonably nice the year round. -alex ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 19:34:26 +0100 Subject: Re: P. morrii, IK &c. Dear Martin, >some days ago there was a question about the name Pinguicula morrii, if this >is a published name. >Well, I searched in the Index Kewensis on CD-rom, and there isn't a P. >morrii. The only resembling name is P. moranensis. Before I published the very 1st edition of my nomenclatural synopsis (1987), I have of course had searched the Index Kewensis (IK), too. Thus, a name of a cp not included in my synopsis (available from the archives of this list; Index Kewensis isn't) or in the www database is probably not worth IK research. Anyway, TNX for your efforts (it's always nice to see other people can't read more in the same book than I). >For everybody who doesn't know what the Index Kewensis is: this is a list >with all the published plant names since 1753, when Linnaeus published his >Species Plantarum. For everybody who doesn't know what my synopsis is: it does include also quite a lot (I hope most) of the early infraspecific taxa (which were omitted in the first vols. of IK; this causes considerable problems for people working on infraspecific classification!). > In this list (...i.e. IK...) >are also included all the rejected names (e.g. later published synonyms). At least many of them (cf. "Utricularia floribunda")... Please do not misunderstand me. I agree that IK is an invaluable tool for taxonomic and especially nomenclatural work. And it is of course not restricted to cp (my synopsis is, unfortunately)! I just have tried to add some (as I think important) further information in my synopsis, which rather obviously does not deviate from IK except for some details (homonyms, types, chromosome counts, bastard formulae). I do of course invite any comment on (and especially improvement of) my synopsis, however. Nobody (& no index) is perfect. But as this world isn't perfect either, we can still hope to create useful images of this world...8-) > The only other possibility left is that P. >morrii was an invalid publication (according to the ICBN >(=International Code for Botanical Nomenclature)), but I think this >isn't likely. Another possibility is that it was never published at all. An especially severe case of invalid publication, I'm afraid. Maybe we should call it "virtually inexistent publication"; the resulting name being a "nomen vacuum". Kind regards Jan ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 15:32:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Nepenthes at the US Botanical Gardens > It is labelled Nepenthes burkeii, though upon examination, I think it may be N. ventricosa. The few > remaining pitchers are somewhat dry, so it is difficult to assess for certain, > but on exam, the pitchers do not appear to have a pubescent surface, which I am > told is one of the major differences between the two species. Some say they > are variants of the same species. I was aware of the two very distinct color variations in N. ventricosa with concomitant pitcher variations is this part of the difference you are talking about? Tom in Fl ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 15:43:44 -0500 Subject: Nepenthes planting media I received a mailer daemon indicating one of my recent posts had been undelivered. So I am condensing and repeating it. If it did get through, sorry for the repeat. My comment was on media for Nep. seeds. I recently tried peat/sand, dried long fiber sphagnum (dried means commercially purchased dry and then wetted and allowed to stand), and living sphagnum. The peat/sand and dried sphagnum were microwaved to sterilize them. Two species were planted in two different trays each divided into thirds. The best germination for both occurred on the dried sphagnum. Differences were very noticeable. One unusual finding was that neither species sprouted on live sphagnum, even tho I have had moderate germination in the past with this medium. Tom in Fl. ################### From: wim@djo.wtm.tudelft.nl (Wim Osterholt) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 22:00:45 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Web Access Harold: > If your server uses Lynx (text based browser) then to get to the Web > site press the letter 'g' which prompts for URL to go to and just type > http:\\www.hpl.hp.com/browser/modified.html. Gets you right to the CP > stuff. It does for me anyway. The only problem I've found is that it > sometimes is too busy. Wow, this works great. The byte counter is pausing sometimes for half a minute or so, but the stuff gets transferred. (BTW, is it 'transferred' or is it (as lynx says) 'transfered'?) I don't know what magic is involved here, but there is only one little confusing thing to mention. Most entries are mentioned to be 00xx.gif . I move the bar on such an entry, then I press . This gives me a screen of text with the word 'text' highlighted as the only possible choice. I press again and now it says that the screen cannot be displayed on my terminal. It offers nicely the possibility to download this file. Pressing the 'd' shows the miraculous result: the file arrives on my machine. It puzzles me why these files are indicated by the word 'text'. Regards, Wim. ----- wim@djo.wtm.tudelft.nl ----- (wim@morgana.gds.nl) ################### From: Harold Slater Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 16:55:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Web Access On Tue, 17 Jan 1995, Wim Osterholt wrote: > Wow, this works great. The byte counter is pausing sometimes for half a > minute or so, but the stuff gets transferred. > (BTW, is it 'transferred' or is it (as lynx says) 'transfered'?) On my server it first transfers to the servers computer. It then asks if I want to save it to disk (5 megs alloted to me) or download to my computer. At 57,600 throughput it takes but a blink :) > I don't know what magic is involved here, but there is only one little > confusing thing to mention. Most entries are mentioned to be 00xx.gif . > I move the bar on such an entry, then I press . This gives me a > screen of text with the word 'text' highlighted as the only possible choice. > I press again and now it says that the screen cannot be displayed > on my terminal. It offers nicely the possibility to download this file. > Pressing the 'd' shows the miraculous result: the file arrives on my > machine. It puzzles me why these files are indicated by the word 'text'. I wondered about that too. Probably just the way the person who put it on the site did it. harold ################### From: Peter Cole Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 17:47:00 GMT Subject: Coir peat substitute Clarke Brunt wrote : > I have only seen Coir sold as a complete potting medium > for normal plants, so I assumed it had fertilizer, and > maybe lime, included. > > Did those of you trying it find a variety which was just > the straight stuff, or did you just try it anyway? 'Wessex Cocopeat' - 100% coir with no nutritious additives ( I think they probably rot it a bit to improve the texture. ) Got mine from the local garden centre - Wyevale, but I'm sure others stock it. It comes as a loose sack rather than compressed bales ( like peat, ) but I can't remember how much it cost. The coir-based composts are probably as bad as peat-based ones - all those dreaded nutrients! I don't know the pH exactly, but it sure turns litmus red, so I doubt there's any lime added. Good growing, Peter Peter Cole |carnivor@bunyip.demon.co.uk| wondering what the hell to do Swansea, WALES | new mailbox, same account | with the 500+ D. capensis I planted on impulse in August... ################### From: Ron Gagliardo <74002.1371@compuserve.com> Date: 17 Jan 95 19:49:49 EST Subject: Re: CP digest 225 I would like to reply to the following message, but first, I would like to know who sent it in. (I often see messages with no author, just an address). >Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 16:00:47 -0500 >From: MZieg1234@aol.com >To: CP@opus.hpl.hp.com >Subject: Culture contamination? >Message-ID: <950115160045_2011293@aol.com> >Whenever I have put venus flytrap into sterile agar culture, I have had >enormous problems getting sterile tissue. This has not been a problem with >other non-carnivorous species. Is this just a passing observation of no >import or could it be that the carnivorous species can utilize microflora for >nutrition! Does anyone have any experience or feedback concerning this? Also, tell me how you are sterilizing the tissue? I have grown many VFTs in vitro cultures initiated with seed and plant tissue. While tissue (ie. leaves, rhizome pieces, etc.) is hard to clean up, it can be done. Unopened flower buds are also valuable for this purpose. Ron Gagliardo Atlanta Botanical Garden ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 17:24:29 -0800 Subject: 1995 California CP Meeting Schedule Here are some dates for the next Los Angeles and Bay Area CP Meetings: Jan. 21 Los Angeles Meeting will be held at the Alhambra Chamber of Commerce, 104 S. First Street at 12:00 Noon, with doors opening at 11:30. Contact Tom Johnson at (818) 248-1623 for details. Feb. 11 BACPS Meeting, Lincoln School, Alameda, from 12:00 to 4:00. Speaker will be Rick Walker, giving a slide show and talk on "CP Tissue Culture in the Home Kitchen". May 6 BACPS Meeting, Lincoln School Aug. 12 BACPS Meeting, Lincoln School Nov. 11 BACPS Meeting, Berkeley Botanic Gardens Contact me by email if you need directions to the BACPS meeting. -- Rick Walker ################### From: Ronnie Spears Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 20:19:12 -500 (EST) Subject: logon Logon ################### From: gsi0816@gsaix2.cc.gasou.edu Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 20:39:09 -0500 Subject: subscribe Logon Ronnie Spears ################### From: gsi0816@gsaix2.cc.gasou.edu Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 20:53:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: Thanks, I have sent request to new address ################### From: Peter Cole Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 00:28:30 GMT Subject: WWW access Rick Walker wrote: > so, we're hoping to put a snapshot of this thing on CD-ROM for > home/school use. Now that does sound good :) > ... Hmm. maybe I could run a listserv-web gateway here? > any comments? And that sounds even better :) ------------------------------------------- Brian Jones writes: > Rick: > Using the listserver would be usefull to those, like myself, who don't > have a T-1 or PPP access to the net (yet); although I'm not sure how > to read html formatted stuff. > -BJ A browser ( such as Lynx, ) can read .html files locally, so you can use it offline to read pages you've downloaded. Even if you haven't a copy, the text is readable ASCII with a few html control codes dotted about - it just won't be laid out so nicely. Peter Peter Cole | carnivor@bunyip.demon.co.uk | enjoying my new terrarium :) Swansea, WALES | new mailbox, same account | ################### From: gsi0816@gsaix2.cc.gasou.edu (Ronnie Spears) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 21:24:44 -0500 Subject: Introduction Hello, My name is Ronnie Spears. I am a graduate student at Georgia Southern University. I only have a hobbyist interest in CP, but I do know several that are working on pitcher plants here. Please send me mail. I want to make sure that I am online before I give the big spill. cheers Ronnie Spears gsi0816@gsaix2.cc.gasou.edu ################### From: nkenny@earthlink.net Date: Tue, 17 Jan 95 20:22 PST Subject: re:Hello >Dear Neal & Magdalena, >I can send you some Drosera dielsiana seed within one week or so (I was so >stupid to throw away all te old flower stalks from my plants last week) for >seed of the other species, D. capensis D. intermedia 'cuba' and D.spatulata >you have to be patient. I also have to divide my Utricularia alpina, so you >can have a piece, but I don't know if it's possible to send it without CITES >and phytosanitary papers (otherwise it will become a little bit expensive). >Anybody else on this list knows? >BTW, you have to give me your adress if I send it to you, mail it to me >personally, my mail adress: Martin.Zevenbergen@algem.pt.wau.nl >About books: I can recommend Adrian Slack's book: insect-eating plants & how >to grow them (already a classic) ISBN 0 906670 42 X. > >Martin > > Martin, Thanks so much for you support. Magdalena and I will stick with just the seeds (so it's not to expensive) we will also reimburse you for any postage costs. or address is Neal and Magdalena 21533 Deerpath Lane Malibu, CA 90265 U.S.A. As for the book, I'll be ordering it tomorrow. Thanks again Martin. ################### From: "Jeffrey Michael Stein" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 00:18:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sterilization of VFT.. > Also, tell me how you are sterilizing the tissue? I have grown many > VFTs in vitro cultures initiated with seed and plant tissue. While > tissue (ie. leaves, rhizome pieces, etc.) is hard to clean up, it > can be done. Unopened flower buds are also valuable for this purpose. > > > Ron Gagliardo Atlanta Botanical Garden > > I've had great difficulty with sterilizing VFT tissue itself. Could you possibly relay your proceedure, so one of us interestes can see. I've tried a 2 min soak in 70% EtOH and then 5-10 minutes in 5% bleach. Alot of tissue seems to die, and others are still contaminated. Strange. Thank you. JMS ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 08:40:25 +0000 Subject: Re: Coir (Coconut fibre) > Hmmm when you say coir that cojures up in my mind fibrous stuff, where > you can see the strands - it is available here to be used as lining > for hanging baskets. The alternative peat I saw looked a lot like > peat, in fact I believed it was peat until I read the fine print > (thought the texture was not _quite_ right). Are we talking the same > stuff here? Of the two varieties of Coir 'peat substitute' I have seen, one was quite fibrous, while the other was darker, fine grained, and looked a lot more like peat. I guess it depends how finely they grind up the coconut shells, or whatever they do with them. We also see bags of cocoa shells (the stuff chocolate is made from) as a soil additive, or a top-dressing for gardens. Unfortunately, these supposedly waste products tend to cost more than peat, which is a bit of a disincentive. SOrry this is getting off the CP track, but someone did say they were growing CP in Coir. -- Clarke Brunt (clarke@brunt.demon.co.uk) ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 10:43:35 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: Alternative growing media > > > Among other things, > > the rockwool did not stay firmly packed around the stem of the cutting. Any > > movement of the bag tended to make the cutting move around, potentially > > injuring the newly forming roots. > > I think some soft substance in the medium like peat, Sphagnum, > bark... or rock*WOOL* > helps to prevent such damage which otherwise may occur when > moving plants. > > > Andreas > Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany > Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de > Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 > Albeit being suspected to cause cancer rockwool fibres are *MUCH* bigger than those of asbestos and, hence, less (if at all) dangerous. However rockwool should be taken with care, particular when dry (as well as per- lite) unless proven "innocent". Some days ago I also read that a type of rockwool has been invented which is "biodigestable", that is if breathed in the particles dissolve in your lungs. There were no claims made whether this may strengthen your bones. :-) As with perlite, I believe there are different qualities of rockwool available, i.e. those for gardening purpose and those to be used for insulation in houses. ..Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland - Automation | Kaitovayla 1, P.O. Box 13023, 90571 Oulu, Finland | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512239 jmh@tko.vtt.fi <-email-------------www-> http://www.kau.vtt.fi/~jmh/ ################### From: gsi0816@gsaix2.cc.gasou.edu (Ronnie Spears) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 09:16:58 -0500 Subject: Cephalotus f. Hi, I am new on the CP server. I am a grad student at Georgia Southern University. My interests are in the Nepenthes and Cephalotus. I have grown CP for the last 10-15 years. I cannot really remember how long I have grown them. In addition, I have traveled to many location throughout hte southeast to locate species. We have a lot here in GA. Most are "protected" though. I am looking for addresses of CP sources. I would also be interested in finding a medium to large cephalotus plant or seeds. Can anyone help? Any way I was really excited to find this server. Ronnie Spears GA. Southern University gsai0816@gsaix2.cc.gasou.edu ################### From: Steven Klitzing Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 07:24:33 -0800 Subject: fungi appearing in Nepenthes seed tray Hi all: Little fuzzy white fungi are starting to appear in my Nepenthes seed sprouting tray. What's the best remedy without killing the seeds? I was thinking of treating them with a very mild, very very dilute aerial copper spray. Would they survive, or is there a better way? ---Steve ################### From: "Warrington, Pat" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 08:10:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: mail and NZ Rick/Jan-: Thanks. Mail is being received again. Fraser/John/Peter/Andrew-: Thanks for your offers re my trip to NZ. I hope to see some of you when I visit. -Pat ################### From: telenet!unicorn!dkpurks@uunet.uu.net (David K. Purks) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 11:19:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: fungi appearing in Nepenthes seed tray > Little fuzzy white fungi are starting to appear in my > Nepenthes seed sprouting tray. What's the best remedy > without killing the seeds? I was thinking of treating > them with a very mild, very very dilute aerial copper > spray. Would they survive, or is there a better way? > > ---Steve I've been misting my seed beds with Benomyl (1 tsp per gal) on a regular basis and I don't get any fungus growing at all - lots of geen slime, but no fungus. Dave ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 11:57:13 -0500 Subject: RAIN Has anyone in No. Cal. seen or heard from Peter d'Amato? ################### From: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de (Andreas Wistuba) Date: 17 Jan 1995 22:26:00 +0100 Subject: Re: Index Kewensis Dear John, you wrote: > I was also interested on possibly getting Index > Kewensis on CD-ROM until I saw the price posted > here! So much for that idea. The same holds true for me :-( The price is horribly high. > I would really > like to have access to the Index data - does > anyone know if there is a gopher or telnet site > out there that offers the Index? Please post these data here on the list. I d also be very very interested in having access to such an online database. An I'm sure many others on the list as well....:-) All the best Andreas Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Tel.: +49 621 705471 Fax: +49 621 711307 e-mail: a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de a.wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de ## CrossPoint v3.02 ## ################### From: ksnive@pstbbs.com Date: Tue, 17 Jan 95 20:57:22 -0700 Subject: Mailing address Hello Family I got my P.O. Box today so any one who wants to contact me via snail mail can now do so. It is I.C.P.S. C/O Kevin Snively P.O. Box 1013 Everett Wa. 98206-1013 U.S.A. My Phone number is still 206-252-2911 I haven't got my signature card yet nor do I know what bank we are at, also Leo Song has voiced a desire to keep the business office in Fullerton, so I'd rather not accept checks or payments for subscriptions at this time. I will however do so if you have had problems in the past and would be more comfortable that way. Kevin Snively ksnive@pstbbs.com Secretary/Treasurer I.C.P.S. ################### From: "Walter Greenwood" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 13:56:03 EST5EDT Subject: Re: RAIN Becky, and everyone else, I just spoke with Peter. He's alive and well, still in business, although, in his words, "Everything around us is destroyed." He thanks everyone for their concern. His phone works now. After a previous flood, he took the hint and bought a house on TOP of a hill. His neighborhood made the news, and what with having to take a boat to the greenhouse to (get this!) *water* the plants, the media made a sort of humorous human-interest story out of it. Who says floods can't be fun? Pete says they should be back to normal in 3 weeks or so, and he expects the spring price list to be ready in early March. Anyone who ordered last year will receive it automatically. All you Bobs fans out there: Let's hear a rousing chorus of "Mopping, mopping, mopping". Becky and other CAlifornians, how are you making out in all of this? Walter ################### From: Trisha Coene Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 13:12:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: cancer warning! (was Re: Alternative growing media) On Mon, 16 Jan 1995, Jan Schlauer wrote: > One of the species who do allegedly not like it is _Homo sapiens_. Indeed, > rockwool fines are suspected to increase the risk of pneumonic cancer if > inhaled (nearly as dangerous as asbestos fibres). > > It is only considered dangerous to handle (dry) rockwool in large amounts > without protection for protracted periods of time so far but you should be > careful, anyway. Avoid (ingestion or) inhalation. > > Jan > Hi everyone, After quite some time I've returned. Unfortunately I'm not able to check my mail every day because my deadlines are up for the magazine, so I have no time to talk with you all. Anyway, in regards to the Rockwool/cancer info. As you may or may not know, hydroponic gardeners choose to use Rockwool as a medium very frequently. For those who are unfamiliar with me, I'm an editor for a high-tech growing mag. that most often features hydroponic articles. Of all the commercial hydro. growers I've worked with (who use Rockwool), not one has mentioned this evil aspect of Rockwool. But if you're worried about it, I have great news. There is new medium much like Rockwool on the market called Bono-Gro. It's completely safe AND BIODEGRADABLE! If anyone is interested in learning more, give B.I.T. Tech. a call for info. Their number is: 919-319-6710. - Trish >tcoene@csos.orst.edu> > ################### From: Martin.Zevenbergen@ALGEM.PT.WAU.NL Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 22:37:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: CD-rom, IK, RE: Hello I will answer some questions from yesterdays digest: Andreas wrote yesterday: >How much is the CD-ROM? About Dfl 3000,- (That's about $1700,- ) >Where can one get it? Oxford press, if you are still interested :) >How often are the updates published? The disc we have now, is the first one, so there is no update yet, somebody from our deartment wrote a letter to the publisher with this question, but we have no answer yet.... Maybe they don't know it themselve..:-) John wrote: >does anyone know if there is a gopher or telnet site out there that offers >the Index? No, not that I know. I know they are busy with that at the Kew Herbarium, but not ready yet, I presume. We want to connect our CD-rom with our internal network first, and I don't think it will become available on internet on a short term. The problem is also that you need special software to use the CD- rom, maybe it's possible to supply this also by internet, but I'm no computer authority.... Jan wrote: >>Well, I searched in the Index Kewensis on CD-rom, and there isn't a P. >Before I published the very 1st edition of my nomenclatural synopsis >(1987), I have of course had searched the Index Kewensis (IK), too. Thus, a >name of a cp not included in my synopsis (available from the archives of >this list; Index Kewensis isn't) or in the www database is probably not >worth IK research. Sorry, I didn't knew of the existance of this synopsis, but I have to say that the IK on CD-rom is updated up to and including 1993, so it's a little (only very little) more up to date. I don't think that a lot of Ping's are added since 1987, but you never know. (I didn't check the P. greenwoodii.. :)) In Utricularia a lot more happened since 1987 I presume, because in 1990 Peter Taylors monography was published. BTW: searching on CD-rom costs me less than 5 minutes..... >For everybody who doesn't know what my synopsis is: it does include also >quite a lot (I hope most) of the early infraspecific taxa (which were >omitted in the first vols. of IK; OK, I didn't know that. I do of course invite any comment on (and especially improvement of) my synopsis, however. >the resulting name being a "nomen vacuum". Yeah, great :-) and finally, Neal and Magdalena: >Martin, Thanks so much for you support. Magdalena and I will stick with >just the seeds (so it's not to expensive) OK, I will send it to you on monday. >we will also reimburse you for any postage costs. not necessary, it's only one stamp! Perhaps, if you have collected some more plants after some time you can send me back some seed which I don't have, that'll do. All the best, Martin ################### From: kirk martin Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 14:55:26 PST Subject: tissue culture requirements I have the chance to acquire some lab equipment at a decent price of which I th ink would be suitable for TC. Could someone let me know what items are pre-requ isites in order to do TC glassware or equipment wise (besides a laminar flow ho od) Thanks Kirk ################### From: peredur@usa.net (John Rising) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 16:35:20 -0700 (MST) Subject: Moss Thanks Just is just a quick thank you to all those who responded to my question. Looks like I'll be changing the way I grow seeds! John peredur@usa.net ################### From: "Jeffrey Michael Stein" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 20:30:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: tissue culture requirements > I have the chance to acquire some lab equipment at a decent price of > which I t h > ink would be suitable for TC. Could someone let me know what items > are pre-req u > isites in order to do TC glassware or equipment wise (besides a > laminar flow h o > od) Thanks Kirk > > - Glassware is usually Pyrex, or some other form which withstand the stress of being steam sterilized (autoclaved). - You'll need a vessel in which to sterilize water - glass pipets which can be sterilized (they don't have to be graduated) an alternative is disposable pre-sterilized pipets - something to sterilize the agar/media in (usually a flask) - and vessels to place the media and plants themselves in - A balance is needed when measuring agar/glucose/etc - An autoclave or pressure cooker to sterilize things in. - Some sort of torch or flame to sterilize the mouth of the flasks before pouring - Chemicals - ethanol (can be purchased as Everclear/Gemclear Liquor in the 95% form) the 95% form is used to sterilzed the hood the 70% form is used to sterilze the seeds and tissues - Bleach - the % ranges for the application. - The media can be bought in the complete form or the components can be purchased separately and mixted together before sterilization. - Hormones are trickier. Off the top of my head, that's the minimum that I use. Other things include: a small centrifuge for seed settling, filter sterilization equiptment for the non-autoclavable chemicals, and because I'm indoors, a flourescent light setup. BTW, I may have forgotten some less used things. Does that help? JMS ################### From: rmiller@Synopsys.COM (Ron Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 17:43:11 PST Subject: Beginner Questions Hi! I am new to the list, and thought I'd introduce myself. I have always been fascinated by carnivorous plants, although I never thought much about growing them. The other day, I was poking around rec.gardens and noticed the carnivorous plants mailing list. I was very pleased that such a mailing list existed, and subscribing to the mailing list has renewed my interest in carnivorous plants. Since then, I have been actively reading up on carnivorous plants and indoor gardening, and I have a few questions that have popped up that I have not been able to find an answer for. The first questions that I have are about setting up growing conditions for carnivorous plants. Since the climate that I live in is very dry, and I don't have room for a greenhouse, I suspect that I will need to set up a terrarium. I don't really have anywhere to put a terrarium where it will get optimum light, so I am planning on supplying artificial light. Since I am planning on growing several species that like a lot of sun, it seems that flourescent light will not be able to provide enough for the plants. As a result, I am planning on buying some HID lights. I am currently leaning towards buying a 175 Watt full-spectrum metal halide light. Is 175 Watts enough power for a very small setup? I realize that it is not much more money to buy a slightly higher power setup, but I am concerned about electricity usage (more for environmental reasons than actual cost), and I don't want to buy a more powerful setup than I need. Would I be better off buying a high pressure sodium setup? It seems that sodium lighting is more efficient, although metal halide has a more natural spectrum. As a result, I was leaning towards the metal halide setup (I also don't like the orange glow of the sodium lights). As far as plants go, I was hoping to set up terrariums with Dionaea, Drosera, Pinguicula, Sarracenia, and Cephalotus. Does anyone have suggestions as to species that would be easy to grow for a beginner using terrariums? Are any of these species easy to start from seed, or should I try to stick with ordering mature plants? Is it possible to grow the above species together in an terrarium? I realize that I probably should not group temperate and tropical species together, since the temperate species will need to be wintered at temperatures cold enough to kill the tropicals. Are there other concerns that I should be worried about? I would be interested in trying Nepenthes, but it seems that you need to have a greenhouse for these. Are there any Nepenthes that are small enough to be grown in a large terrarium? The final question that I have is with regards to ordering the plants. I got copies of the sellerlist/suppliers from the list server, so I now have plenty of sources. However, I am not interested in ordering any plants/seeds that were collected from the wild, and I was wondering if there is a way to tell where the source of a plant was. Are there suppliers I should avoid? Will suppliers be honest about their sources if I ask them? I apologize for the long posting and the many questions that I asked. Thanks in advance for any help. Ron ========================================================= Ron Miller, Phone: (415)694-4273 Synopsys, Inc. FAX: (415)965-8637 700 East Middlefield Road Internet: rmiller@synopsys.com Mountain View, CA 94043 ################### From: Bill Smith Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 17:55:15 PST Subject: Nepenthes in flower (Re: Nepenthes at the US Botanical Gardens) Alex's message reminded of the one and only time I've seen a Nepenthes (don't remember species or sex) in flower. I was in a local exotic plant shop, since closed down, being conducted through their CP greenhouse. It was fantastic. (Strangely, they misted and watered with LA water, which is quite hard and fairly basic, but who's to argue with success?) The CP guy pointed out a Nepenthes and asked had I ever seen one flower. We went to look at it more closely and he suggested I smell it. I did -- it was a strange, meaty (though not carrion-like like Stapelia). He asked "Well, what do you think it smells like?" "I don't know. Maybe dog food?" "Naw. An orgy -- definitely smells like an orgy." Anyone out there have anything to contribute on this line? ################### From: Bill Smith Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 17:58:36 PST Subject: Re: tissue culture requirements Could one of the TC practitioners please describe what a laminar flow hood is (and why one prefers them to Volkswagens)? Bill ################### From: "Charlotte Vandaveer (BIO)" Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 21:42:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: fungi appearing in Nepenthes seed tray Hi, Steve, Copper is usually pretty nasty to CPs and many other plants like epiphytes. Something like Benomyl is probably better. Happy trapping, Chelsie On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Steven Klitzing wrote: > Hi all: > > Little fuzzy white fungi are starting to appear in my > Nepenthes seed sprouting tray. What's the best remedy > without killing the seeds? I was thinking of treating > them with a very mild, very very dilute aerial copper > spray. Would they survive, or is there a better way? > > ---Steve > > > > ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 21:41 EST Subject: Last Chance to Sea Cow In keeping with our ongoing off-topic discussion of extinct animals: Is anyone familiar with the Stellar's Sea Cow? I found a reference to it under dugong. The dugong is similar to a manatee, but it has a while- like tail, wheras the manatee has a paddle-shaped tail. What shape tail did the Stellar's Sea Cow have? Where did it live? How did it go extinct? Does this group of mammals have a fossil record? Were there giant species alive in the Pleistocene? What are these guys related to? I suspect NOT the seals. OB cp: These animals are probably formidable pests on cp populations, particularly Utricularia. Fortunately I have never had a manatee infestation in my aquatic Utricularia pails. Michael ################### From: SaberCat1@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 22:13:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Coir (Coconut fibre) A word of warning.....Coconut peat is a very good growing medium, but has a tendency to turn to mud under constant wet conditions, making it danderous to use with Nepenthes and some others. John. E. Laroche ################### From: John Taylor Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 16:47:40 +1100 Subject: Smoke Germination article (partial) - LONGish >I'd be interested in a summary of the smoke treatment >article if you have time to post it. Thanks! > >Jeff >in NC I'll post it to everyone... "Smoking Out The Natives" by Malcom Campbell - in "Gardening Australia" magazine January 1995. " We all know that smoking is a health hazard, but fortunately 'smoking' your native plants in the garden is not. Dr Kingsley Dixon and Shauna Roche at the Kings Park Botanic Garden in Perth, WA, have been conducting trials to find Australian native plant species that respond to this germination mechanism. They have also been testing some Californian genera, with similar results emerging. As a gerneral rule, it seems that the smaller seeds break their dormancy when fumigated with smoke. The smoke does not appear to need any particular component, but tests have mostly used bush leaf litter as fuel. Following trials in the Kings Park greenhouses and Alcoa's Marrinup Nursery near Jarrahdale, the experts took their tents to the Kalamunda bush and tried the technique _en situ_. (That's _botanique_ for 'in the field' or, if you are a Latin scholar, it means 'in that position'.) The trials exposed s range of native plant seeds in propagation flats to smoke for 30 minutes, 60 minutes and 90 minutes respectively. Though the time required for germination varied slightly from species to species, it was found that, generally, 60 minutes gave good results for all species that responded to smoke. Dr Dixon and his team have now germinated over 70 species of Australian and Californian plant that have, up until now, proved to be very difficult to germinate from seed. Although only six _Verticordia_ species have been tested, they all responded to the smoke treatment. As a nurseryman, I wasted many hours trying to strike a range of splendid _Verticordia_ species with the result that only a few took root and subsequently died in their tubes - so the hope of growing these lovely 'feather flowers' from seed is a real boost to keen native plantsfolk." (Discussion about nice native species deleted to reduce length...) " We all know that fire encourages many of our terrestrial orchids to flower, because of the release of ethylene from the soil. We know that banksias need the heat of a fire to char their woody seed cones so that, when the fire has passed, the cooling cones can release their winged seed. Many of the legumes such as _Hardenbergia_, _Kennedia_, _Acacia_ and _Hovea_ species rely on fire to crack their hard seed coats, then germinate with the rains that follow. For some genera, the fire mearly reduces the competition for light and nutrients, giving the opportunistic plants a chance to grow. Australia has approximately 20,000 Australian native plant species. It is encouraging that, of the 200 tested by Kings Park, 70 have shown a positive response to smoke treatment. There are literally thousands of 'difficult-to- propagate' native plants worthy of growing in our gardens. Who knows which of them might respond to smoke germination? It's certainly worth a try. Dr Dixon, who is Assistant Director of Science & Education at Kings Park, West Perth, WA 6005 would love to hear of your successes, either by mail or by fax on (09) 322-5064, so why not give it a go? I can think of some fairly simple methods you might use at home in the propagation shed (using an old camping tent, perhaps?) which are similar to smoking fish - but I'll leave you to decide on your own methods!" >:-( " The ideal native plant seed-raising mixture is: 8 parts triple-washed sand, with 1 part of fine peat and 2 parts of perlite. The seed is surface-sown and covered only with sharp sand to the thickness of the seed. This will result in an incredibly thin layer of media for most fine seed natives. In the really dry areas of Australia, fine gravel of two-mm screening or sharp dry sand make the best surface mulch for seed sowing. Water initially by immersion rather than overhead until germination has occured. Otherwise, because of the surface tension of the water, you might wash the fine seed away. Light shadecloth is all the protection required. A glasshouse in January is seldom needed, unless you garden in the coldest parts of Australia." There is an article on this topic (the original...) "Smoke - A New Process for Germinating Australian Plants" by S. Roche, R. Dixon & J. Pate, two page article in "Australian Horticulture", 15 Sept-14 Oct 1994, published by Ramsay Ware Stockland Pty Ltd, Rural Press Victoria, PO Box 160, Port Melbourne, rrp. $4.80 at newsagents. (Now they tell me... I'll see if I can get hold of a photocopy of this article from RMIT's library when I go back...) BFN +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John Taylor [Catweasel] | Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | rphjt@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au | Department of Applied Physics | | | Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: nkenny@earthlink.net Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 22:10 PST Subject: re:Hello >Dear Neal & Magdalena, >I can send you some Drosera dielsiana seed within one week or so (I was so >stupid to throw away all te old flower stalks from my plants last week) for >seed of the other species, D. capensis D. intermedia 'cuba' and D.spatulata >you have to be patient. I also have to divide my Utricularia alpina, so you >can have a piece, but I don't know if it's possible to send it without CITES >and phytosanitary papers (otherwise it will become a little bit expensive). >Anybody else on this list knows? >BTW, you have to give me your adress if I send it to you, mail it to me >personally, my mail adress: Martin.Zevenbergen@algem.pt.wau.nl >About books: I can recommend Adrian Slack's book: insect-eating plants & how >to grow them (already a classic) ISBN 0 906670 42 X. > >Martin Thanks for you help. Lets just stick to the seeds. I'llgladly pay the postage. Our address is: Neal & Magdalena 21533 Deerpath Malibu, CA 90265 U.S.A. I'll check the book out! Thanks!!! ################### From: Bob Beer Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 23:08:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Nepenthes in flower (Re: Nepenthes at the US Botanical Gardens) Gee, I don't know what an orgy smells like. I hope it doesn't smell like Nepenthes flowers, because *they* remind me of nothing so much as old mouse piss. :) It would make me wonder just what kind of people your friend was orgying with! > > "I don't know. Maybe dog food?" > > "Naw. An orgy -- definitely smells like an orgy." > > Anyone out there have anything to contribute on this line? > > ################### From: dave evans Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 02:12 EST Subject: Re: MAYDAY-Nepenthes in distress > I recently had an accident with my large Nepenthes/Orchid case with a > large pane of glass breaking. I quickly transferred all of the > Nepenthes and orchids to my older tanks and repaired the glass by > replacing it with a new pane-actual -ly plexiglass this time around. > I used Dow Corning Silicone sealant to glaze the new piece in. I > allowed the sealant to dry and later transferred the plants Yes I have heard of vapors from silicone sealant damaging plants esp. drosera. Dave ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:28:48 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: tissue culture requirements > > > - Some sort of torch or flame to sterilize the mouth of the flasks > before > pouring > > > - Chemicals > - ethanol (can be purchased as Everclear/Gemclear Liquor in the > 95% form) > the 95% form is used to sterilzed the hood Be careful no to blow up yourself and your hood. Ethanol fumes may build up explosives fumes (fume-air mixtures) in a closed compartment. ..Michael ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:06:38 GMT+1 Subject: Re: tissue culture requirements > Could one of the TC practitioners please describe what a laminar flow > hood is (and why one prefers them to Volkswagens)? > A laminar flow hood is a compartment with a large (+/- one square meter) filter through which air is blown. THe filter keeps particles larger than 0,2 micrometers (the smallest known bacterial spores are larger than that size). You sit opposed to the filter in a continuous laminar stream of _sterile_ _dustfree_ air. BTW microchips, computer hard drives and CD's are manufactured also in environments with ultra clean air cleaned with the so called HEPA-filters. They're better than Volkswagens because they produce cleaner air. However I never tried to do tissue culture inside a Volkswagen. Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:13:04 GMT+1 Subject: Re: tissue culture requirements > Be careful no to blow up yourself and your hood. Ethanol fumes may build > up explosives fumes (fume-air mixtures) in a closed compartment. > > ..Michael A laminar flow hood is not a closed environment but right the opposite. Because of the relatively fast stream of sterile air no buildup of dangerous Ethanol-gas concentrations can occur. Therefor one can safely work with Ethanol inside the hood. However do not use Ethanol in a glove box (closed environment) because this means working inside a bomb for the above reasons. Andreas Andreas Wistuba; Mudauer Ring 227; 68259 Mannheim; Germany Inet: a.wistuba@dkfz-Heidelberg.de / a.wistuba@carnivor.rhein-neckar.de Phone: +49-621-705471 Fax: +49-621-711307 ################### From: dave evans Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 02:55 EST Subject: Re: Hello again > My next victim will be a N.rafflesiana. I am simply waiting for one of > my plants to get get big enough for a cutting. I have been growing N.rafflesiana in a low humidity environment (house hold levels) and it doesn't like at all. It does produce pitchers but these are small and short lived. It has been growing quickly as far I can tell, however. It's a heathly plant but the low humidity just knocks the pitchers off. Dave Evans ################### From: Seos mac Carthaigh Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 11:09:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: American places It seems to me that our American cousins are increasingly using postal abreviations for their states (I think they're states) instead of spelling them out. This means that many people on Planet Earth haven't a bauldy notion where abouts on the North American continent the sender is! I got a message from a new member from GA (many welcomes BTW wherever you are). In Europe GA is a car Insurance company! The alternative is that us Euros will have to start using our abreviations (eg, SF,E,H,D,GB,NL). topic bit: my VFTs and Darlingtonia are covered in snow since the coldframes got blown away. seosamh (IRL) ################### From: korfhage@icarus.lis.pitt.edu (robert korfhage) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 07:16:26 EST Subject: Re: American places The postal authorities here are strong on pushing the two-letter abbreviations for our states, in a drive for automatic mail processing and increased "postal efficiency." They don't think about how this leaves people, including many Americans, puzzled about what the abbreviations mean, or, the other way around, what the correct abbreviation for a given state is. Strangely, the post office seems to be getting less, not more, efficient! Usually the codes are fairly easy to figure out if you have a list of states handy. Often they are the first two letters, or the first and last letters of the name. States with two-word names get the obvious initial abbreviation (NY = New York). And a few abbreviations go back to fairly standard 'folk' abbreviations. An example is MO for Missouri. But the whole thing can be difficult without a full table. GA, by the way, is Georgia. Bob Korfhage korfhage@lis.pitt.edu ################### From: zxmsl01@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 14:15:15 +0100 Subject: Re: American places Seosamh, GA is "*G*ood ole Georgi*A*" (sorry to all Georgian patriots! 8-)). >The alternative is that us Euros will have to start using our >abreviations (eg, SF,E,H,D,GB,NL). Maybe us cp-Euros should use the abbreviations used in "Flora Europaea", i.e. something like: Al, Au, Az, Be, Br, Bu, Co, Cr, Cz, Da, Fe, Ga, Ge, Gr, Hb, He, Ho, Hs, Hu, Is, It, Ju, Lu, Ma, No, Po, Rm, Rs, Sa, Si, Su, Tu. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Pekka Ala-Siuru Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 15:52:26 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: American places This is off cp discussion.. but SF is not anymore SF, it's FIN. :) ..Pekka ______________________________________________________ Pekka Ala-Siuru Senior Analyst, Embedded Knowledge-Based Systems VTT Electronics, P.O.Box 1100, FIN-90571, Oulu,Finland Tel. +358 81 551 2461, Telefax +358 81 551 2320 ################### From: SaberCat1@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:11:20 -0500 Subject: Re: tissue culture requirements If anyone wants plans to construct an inexpensive Laminar-Flow Box, e-mail me direct, I will encode and zip the chapter dealing with that from my book entitled: A Hobbyist's Guide to Plant Tissue Culture (in press) and send it to you free of obligation.It is copyrighted, so do not publish, distribute or alter it in anyway without my permission. John E. Laroche (Sabercat1@aol.com) ################### From: SaberCat1@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:11:17 -0500 Subject: Re: tissue culture requirements I've done quite a bit of culture, not just CP but plants of all types and a good substitute for EToH is plain old Vodka. It works and sure makes a long transfer session more enjoyable. John Laroche Miami, Fla Sabercat1@aol.com ################### From: Stan P Rachootin Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:26:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: This was an attempt to subscribe. On Wed, 18 Jan 1995 cp@opus.hpl.hp.com wrote: > Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 14:46:02 -0800 From:cp@opus.hpl.hp.com To: > srachoot@mhc.mtholyoke.edu Cc: walker@opus.hpl.hp.com Subject: Error > Condition Re: > > > > We are sorry, but this system sensed the following request which may > have been inadvertedly sent to this list: > > SUBSCRIBE CP STAN RACHOOTIN > > If your posting was intentional, please accept our apologies and > resend your mail message, making sure you do not include anything that > may look like a request in the first line of the body of the actual > message. If this was indeed a request please resend it to > listproc@opus.hpl.hp.com Your entire message is copied below. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > SUBSCRIBE CP stan rachootin > ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 09:54:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Hello again > > > My next victim will be a N.rafflesiana. I am simply waiting for one of > > my plants to get get big enough for a cutting. > > I have been growing N.rafflesiana in a low humidity environment (house hold > levels) and it doesn't like at all. It does produce pitchers but these are > small and short lived. It has been growing quickly as far I can tell, however. > It's a heathly plant but the low humidity just knocks the pitchers off. > > Dave Evans > I am impressed with the growers who manage all kinds of Nepenthes in home environments. I can't imagine how you succeed in homes with central heat and air. Even here in Florida where the humidity is often 100%, I have several Nepenthes that simply do not like open air environments. They produce new healthy leaves but simply don't pitcher. In fact, if I have a plant that is not pitchering I invariably put it in a terrarium setup under lights, which has always turned the plant around. Tom in Fl ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 11:06:19 -0500 Subject: Re: RAIN I live between Sacramento and the Sonoma Coast. We had no problem, but as the news caster explained, it's because the clouds went up to clear the coast range and didn't start comming down until over Sacramento. I have stored 60+ gal of rain water, but now wonder about mosquitoes. I did not see Peter on the TV, but knew that he lived UP a hill. Redwoods thrive on this kind of innundation. A warning to everyone in the area. Thanks for asking, I have webbed feet now. Becky ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 11:11:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: American places Point taken and considered valid :-)! IRL= Internal Revenue ...? Sorry I just recieved my tax forms :-(. Promise to do better! Take care! Jeff in North Carolina (home of _Dionaea_) P.S. Who asked me about CP spots in North Carolina. I'm afraid I deleted your message, sorry. ################### From: Steven Klitzing Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 08:17:09 -0800 Subject: Re: RAIN Hi Becky: If you want to prevent mosquitos from getting into your rainwater supply barrel...Take an eyedropper and add two or three drops of motor oil or 3 and 1 oil to the surface of the water. It will create a thin surface film of oil that will prevent any mosquitos from hatching...as it suffocates their eggs in the water. Simply skim it off the top with a disposable rag when you want to use the water. ---Steve ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 11:35:39 -0500 Subject: Re: American places > It seems to me that our American cousins are increasingly using postal > abreviations for their states (I think they're states) instead of > spelling them out. This means that many people on Planet Earth > haven't a bauldy notion > where abouts on the North American continent the sender is! I got a > message from a new member from GA (many welcomes BTW wherever you > are). In Europe GA is a car Insurance company! > > > The alternative is that us Euros will have to start using our > abreviations (eg, > SF,E,H,D,GB,NL). > > > topic bit: my VFTs and Darlingtonia are covered in snow since the > coldframes got > blown away. > > > seosamh (IRL) OOPS, Tom in Florida, an hour from the sovereign kindom of Mickey Mouse and just south of the Sarracenia swamps. ################### From: Christopher Waldrop Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 10:35:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Mosquitos in the water > If you want to prevent mosquitos from getting into your > rainwater supply barrel...Take an eyedropper and add two > or three drops of motor oil or 3 and 1 oil to the surface I have a problem with them hatching in the water trays during the summer, and since they carry heartworms, I'm very concerned. Is there anything, short of changing the water daily, that I can do that will not harm the plants? ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 11:46:53 -0500 Subject: Re: RAIN > Hi Becky: > > If you want to prevent mosquitos from getting into your > rainwater supply barrel...Take an eyedropper and add two > or three drops of motor oil or 3 and 1 oil to the surface > of the water. It will create a thin surface film of oil > that will prevent any mosquitos from hatching...as it > suffocates their eggs in the water. Simply skim it off > the top with a disposable rag when you want to use the > water. > > ---Steve While I am sure Steve knows what he is talking about, I would suggest using a tight fitting lid on your barrel or using a screen fit to size. I have used both successfully without risk to any aquatic Utrics or standing water plantings. Tom in Florida, home of equine encephalitis and tiger mosquito born dingue fever. ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 12:29 EST Subject: RE: mail > what the correct abbreviation for a given state is. Strangely, the post off > seems to be getting less, not more, efficient! Usually the codes are fairly Well, when you consider that the population is going up, the number of businesses is going up, and mail traffic is going up, I'm amazed that the US Postal Service can do as good a job as they do! Especially with all those hand-written addresses. They may seem a little slow with the cp shipments, but I think that's largely a product of anticipation! ;-) PS. I believe I've heard they plan to extend the zip code from the existing 9 digits to 11 digits. Michael ################### From: SaberCat1@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 13:11:52 -0500 Subject: Re: tissue culture requirements Expect something from me in your E-mail tonight or tommorrow. ################### From: SaberCat1@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 17:18:56 -0500 Subject: Greetings and Salutations Though I've been butting in the past couple of days, I'd like to introduce myself. My name is John Laroche, and I live in Miami, Florida. Prior to Hurricane Andrew, I had a rare plant nursery and many, many CP's. Today, I no longer have a nursery and have but only a single Nepenthes. I am in your group because I have 12 years of horticultural knowledge to share and am actively pursuing a rebuild of my once spectacular collection. Feel free to E-Mail me directly with any plant related questions, I'll be glad to help. For those of you who have inquired about my book, I will announce when it is available from the publishing house (it's being typeset now). Thank-you for asking. I'll be getting those plans out for the L-F Hood as soon as I find the file on my Hard Disk. John E. Laroche :) (Sabercat1@aol.com) Miami, Florida USA ################### From: "David J. Edmondson" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 16:18:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: mail On Thu, 19 Jan 1995, Michael.Chamberland wrote: > PS. I believe I've heard they plan to extend the zip code from the > existing 9 digits to 11 digits. Some bulk mailers already use the 11-digit zip codes. The last two digits are generally the same as the last two digits of your house number if you live in a single-family detached unit or a duplex. Dave Edmondson ghoti@netcom.com; ftp archive ftp.netcom.com:/pub/gh/ghoti "Exalted Master, you told us that the world would end yesterday." "My child, it did end yesterday, but you're too sinful to notice." ################### From: barry@mips3.as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 17:22:19 -0700 Subject: Death by Cruciferiction Hey all.... I've been busy and just skimming through the DIGEST files so if someone as directed a note to me in the last week I've missed it---please repost to me directly. Regarding ruminations on mycorrhizal associations... When on a hike with my botanist brother I happened to mention that _Capsella bursa-pastoris_ is sometimes thought to be carnivorous, he expressed surprise and then told me that as far as he knew, plants in the mustard family (Cruciferae or Brassicaceae) do not develop mycorrhizal associations that can help in nutrient uptake in poor soils, esp. those low in P. So a potential solution to this phylogenetic constraint would be to eat mosquitos! Of course, we're talking about carnivorous seeds vs. live plants, but the connection is interesting. Cheers, Barry ################### From: korfhage@lis.pitt.edu (robert korfhage) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 20:19:14 EST Subject: RE: mail I don't know about plans to expand the ZIP from nine to eleven digits. However, I think that most countries have the same types of problems you mentioned -- growing population & businesses, hand-written addresses, etc. I guess the thing that disturbs me is all of the stories about mail being misdirected and taking weeks to get across town -- and various experiences I've had pointing to inefficiencies -- in contrast to the P.O.'s reported plans to move into an electronic form of mail. It seems to me that they should concentrate on doing the present job well, before attempting new ventures! Bob K. ################### From: Perry Malouf Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 20:25:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: D. adelae surprises Hello everyone, This past summer, when Doug Atlas gave me a large portion of his CP collection to distribute, I kept a few plants. Among them were two nice-sized D. adelae specimens. I had never seen this Drosera before, and I found it to be quite beautiful. Both were transplanted side by side in one of my large plastic trays, which already contained three large D. capensis, a few D. spathulata, a young Cephalotus, and various Utriculariae growing as weeds on the surface of the growing medium. The growing medium is a peat-sand mixture, and this whole arrangement sits under fluorescent lights inside a clear plastic tent. Both D. adelae plants began to show signs of inadequate humidity and perhaps higher temperatures than they normally like. The older leaves gradually dried up, and the newer growth was small. Not being one who submits himself to the wills of his plants, I just let things sit and figured that the plants would kick the bucket eventually. By the way, the other plants in the tray were doing fine, and the D. capensis plants flowered. One week ago I spotted several unidentifiable Droserae sprouting up, and I thought this might be D. capensis plantlets that started from the seeds which resulted from the recent flowers. Now the plants are large enough to identify, and they're D. adelae! It's incredible. There are miniature D. adelae coming up all over the tray--one in the midst of the three D. capensis, one on the other side of the Cephalotus from where the adult D. adelae are, and a few more in various locations in the tray. Apparently the adult D. adelae grew roots throughout the tray, and these are sprouting new plants in random locations. The two adult plants still don't look as nice as they did when I first received them, but they must be happy if they're making babies. Meanwhile, I haven't seen one D. capensis plantlet yet, and this is the Drosera that's supposed to spread like a weed once it blooms. Ah yes, these surprises are best when they occur in the middle of Winter. I just hope that the plants are not so aggressive that they will kill my Cephalotus. Perry Malouf ################### From: gsi0816@gsaix2.cc.gasou.edu Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 21:21:29 -0500 Subject: Plantless Hello CP-liners, Once again I will introduce myself and my interests. My name is Ronnie Spears. I am a graduate student at Georgia Southern University doing research on bats! I am also a self proclaimed botonist. I ahve grown many different species of CP's over the past 15 years. My first was of course the venus flytrap. I live now in prime carnivor country. Southeast GA. (more debate material) Near Savannah, GA. My growing interests include Drosera, Nepenthes, and Cephalotus. Currently my CP count is zero! I have not grown any carnivors in over two years and I am feeling a little weak in the knees. This line has sprung my interests once again. I would like to setup a nice terrerium. What plants would make great additions. My favorite is Ceph. f. I would like to obtain some of the Australian tubers in the Drosera family( D. adelae) I hope i spelled it right. Are there any cultivators of any of these hard to find species. Most cultivars here in the southeast only have a few species. Most Cephalotus plants are smaller than a quarter and I seem to have a wonderful effect on them. I send them to plant heaven. The nicest Ceph. plants that I have had came from the Atlanta Bot. Garden. It lived for three years. Its demise happened when I left it outside thinking it could tolerate the mild GA. winters. WRONG!!! A lite frosting seemed to do this plant in. I remembered reading that this species could take cool weather. Anyway, if anyone out there has any seed or plants they would like to shell off. I am available. Thanks. Cheers, Ronnie Spears T T [ ] [ ] [ ][ ] \/ // ################### From: "David J. Edmondson" Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 18:15:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: D. binata multifida extrema Does anyone know of a reliable source in the U.S. for this plant? Thanks much! Dave Edmondson ghoti@netcom.com; ftp archive ftp.netcom.com:/pub/gh/ghoti "Exalted Master, you told us that the world would end yesterday." "My child, it did end yesterday, but you're too sinful to notice." ################### From: blymn@awadi.com.AU (Brett Lymn) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:18:11 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: RAIN According to Oliver T Massey CFS: > >> If you want to prevent mosquitos from getting into your >> rainwater supply barrel...Take an eyedropper and add two >> or three drops of motor oil or 3 and 1 oil to the surface >> of the water. It will create a thin surface film of oil >> that will prevent any mosquitos from hatching...as it >> suffocates their eggs in the water. Simply skim it off >> the top with a disposable rag when you want to use the >> water. >> > >While I am sure Steve knows what he is talking about, I would suggest using a >tight fitting lid on your barrel or using a screen fit to size. I have used >both successfully without risk to any aquatic Utrics or standing water >plantings. > I agree with Oliver, you have to be careful about contaminants if you try to knock off mosquito larvae this way. The "traditional" way here in Australia was a bit of kerosene in the rain water tank but that taints the water. If you have a duck then they seem to do a great job in scarfing up the larvae - we had some water standing in buckets that always used to get mosquito larvae in them. Now that we have a duck we don't seem to have any larvae in the water - or snails, weeds, lettuce, spinach, silverbeet, just about anything is eaten ;-) Brett, in South Australia _still_ hanging out for some decent rains to fill his rainwater tank which was bone dry until a week or so ago. -- Brett Lymn, Computer Systems Administrator, AWA Defence Industries =============================================================================== "Also, it takes a lot longer to get up North ..... The slow way" - "Clever Trevor" Ian Drury ################### From: Carnipla@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 22:56:58 -0500 Subject: Re: 1995 California CP Meetin... Rick, thanks for the update. You saved me a phone call. Tom ################### From: Aaron Hicks Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 21:18:26 -0700 Subject: Re: RAIN For getting rid of 'skeeter larvae in shallow trays or dishes of water, I would suggest going to your local pet store, and purchasing a handful or so of "feeder guppies"; rather hardier than the fancy kind, these little beasties will thrive in all but the harshest of conditions, and reproduce mercilessly. On the other hand, this requires absolute strictness in application of any kind of chemical agents; obviously, most insecticides (including insecticidal soaps and pyrethrins), will be fatal to them in even ppm concentrations... If one only had a few shallow trays, the guppies would probably do quite well; I have not attempted to raise them in acidic water (and, alas, as I am not in possession of any quantities of fish nor the facilities in which to raise them, with nary a pet store for 70 miles in any given direction, I am not in the position to attempt such an experiement). On the other hand, many fish do quite well in "peat-water", or water that has (quite sensibly) been strained through peat. Something to do with the tannins or humic acid or something like that. :-) -AJHicks NMTech Dept. of Entropy ################### From: tomas polivka Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 09:02:56 MET Subject: Re: Plantless Yes, you have spelled right - D. adelae - but it is NOT a tuberous Drosera. D. adelae is from the group of tropical droseras (D. schizandra, D. prolifera, D. petiolais, D. falconeri, D. dilatato-petiolaris...). Tomas ################### From: Pekka Ala-Siuru Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 11:09:17 +0200 (EET) Subject: NEP+LIGHT+HUMIDITY On Thu, 19 Jan 1995, Oliver T Massey CFS wrote: > > > > > > > > > My next victim will be a N.rafflesiana. I am simply waiting for > > > one of my plants to get get big enough for a cutting. > > > > > > I have been growing N.rafflesiana in a low humidity environment > > (house hold levels) and it doesn't like at all. It does produce > > pitchers but these are small and short lived. It has been growing > > quickly as far I can tell, > however. > > It's a heathly plant but the low humidity just knocks the pitchers > > off. > > > > Dave, how's the light conditions here? > > Dave Evans > > > > > > > I am impressed with the growers who manage all kinds of Nepenthes in > home environments. I can't imagine how you succeed in homes with > central heat and air. > > Even here in Florida where the humidity is often 100%, I have several > Nepenthes that simply do not like open air environments. They produce > new healthy leaves but simply don't pitcher. In fact, if I have a > plant that is not pitchering I invariably put it in a terrarium setup > under lights, which has always turned the plant around. Hey, look what you write! ... setup under lights... Is that the answer to pitchering? Proper light conditions before humidity. ..Pekka ______________________________________________________ Pekka Ala-Siuru Senior Analyst, Embedded Knowledge-Based Systems VTT Electronics, P.O.Box 1100, FIN-90571, Oulu,Finland Tel. +358 81 551 2461, Telefax +358 81 551 2320 ################### From: blymn@awadi.com.AU (Brett Lymn) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 20:08:58 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: NEP+LIGHT+HUMIDITY According to Pekka Ala-Siuru: > >Hey, look what you write! ... setup under lights... >Is that the answer to pitchering? >Proper light conditions before humidity. > Not in my experience. I have had nepenthes that have received plenty of light and still not produced pitchers. Raising the humidity seems to promote pitchering. -- Brett Lymn, Computer Systems Administrator, AWA Defence Industries =============================================================================== "Also, it takes a lot longer to get up North ..... The slow way" - "Clever Trevor" Ian Drury ################### From: "Rogan Roth" Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:16:05 +200 Subject: Instant smoke Dear CP smokers, As the current topic seems to be germinating smoke-treated seeds, I have something to add. The Botanical Society of South Africa has recently put a product on the market called "Instant Smoke Plus" which consists of a sheet of absorbent paper which has been impregnated with a solution of smoke in water and then dried. All you have to do is pour a measured quantity of water over the smoke-impregnated paper to resuspend the smoke solution and water the seeds with it. Simplicity itself! Further details can be got directly from the Society by writing to: Botanical Society of South Africa Private Bag X7 Kirstenbosch Claremont 7735 South Africa. Best regards Rogan Roth. (ROTH@GATE2.CC.UNP.AC.ZA) ################### From: sportman@students.wisc.edu (Scott Portman) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 07:41:19 -0600 Subject: re: RAIN A follow-up on the thread about keeping mosquitos out of rainwater barrels. "Whiteclouds", available at tropical fish stores, are little minnows from China that survive even when the surface of the water freezes over. They love mosquito larvae. I used to keep some in an outdoor pond and never had a problem with mosquitos. ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 09:43:24 -0500 Subject: Re: NEP+LIGHT+HUMIDITY > > Even here in Florida where the humidity is often 100%, I have several Nepenthes > > that simply do not like open air environments. They produce new healthy leaves > > but simply don't pitcher. In fact, if I have a plant that is not pitchering I > > invariably put it in a terrarium setup under lights, which has always turned > > the plant around. > > Hey, look what you write! ... setup under lights... > Is that the answer to pitchering? > Proper light conditions before humidity. > > ..Pekka You raise an interesting point. Obviously, growers will have different experiences, but I have found that for Sarracenia you are correct. Sarracenia's want as much light as possible. Humidity matters, but seems to come second. As for Nepenthes, humidity seems to come first. Light has not been as crucial an element for me. My Neps are all either under lights or outside in natural sunlight. When I move a Nep into a terrarium, it is being moved from "under lights", to "under lights in an enclosure". It is true that the biggest pitchers I have obtained for some species have come about outside, but other species seem to do very well in light levels that the Sarracenia definitely do not like. As an example, I recently had a N. alata that was not doing well. I repotted in live sphagnum, separating the several plants into two pots. One I put outside while the other went into one of my terrariums. The terrarium plant recovered and is pitchering very nicely with textbook diffuse red and green pitchers, while the plant outside continued to decline to the point where I thought I would loose the plant. About three weeks ago I put it in the terrarium and it has already dramatically improved. Now, the light levels outside are defintely higher than the terrarium, and the humidity outside, although high, is still lower than the terrarium. Anyway, that kind of experience has lead me to my conclusions. - - Either that or the little suckers are playing with my mind. Tom in Florida - Be glad your paranoid, otherwise all those people really would be out to get you. ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 09:48:13 -0500 Subject: re: RAIN > A follow-up on the thread about keeping mosquitos out of rainwater barrels. > "Whiteclouds", available at tropical fish stores, are little minnows from > China that survive even when the surface of the water freezes over. They > love mosquito larvae. I used to keep some in an outdoor pond and never had > a problem with mosquitos. HA! What an idea, and one more reason to never let those water trays completely dry out. - But do they fertilize the water? Tom in Florida, looking for whiteclouds ################### From: "Philip F. Wight" Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 07:50:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: CP digest 229 My sympathies to all you who have to face the two-letter state abbreviations. I still am not sure myself if MI is Mississippi or Michigan, for example. I still have a hard time with British and Canadian postal zones, with their incomprehensible groupings of letters and numbers, never sure if I am seeing the letter O or the number 0. We are being forced into saying more, but typing less. Nepenthes question - at what point is a pitcher no longer contributing to the welfare of the plant - when the upper portion begins to dry out, or when the entire pitcher is withered? At what point does the pitcher cease providing nourishment to the plant? Should these pitchers be removed immediately, for the health of the plant, at that point? Thank you for your advice. Cheers, Phil ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 11:10:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Various Topics Hi Folks, For the new folks, welcome! For mosquito control, Gardener's Supply sells a floating ring that releases a mosquitocidal bacteria for mosquito control. My D. adelae did the same thing as Perry's last year. Right now they are sending up about 12 flower spikes. I plan on dividing the pots after I collect seed so I'll offer up extras then. Does anyone known if D. adelae needs assistance in pollination or will they self easily? Also, can they be crossed with D. prolifera? Remember your International Carnivorous Plant Society dues. With publications running on time let's not slow things down. Yes, I'm the world's worst procrastinator :-). Ronnie, I'll trade you some Drosera capensis for information on how to build and locate a bat house that will really attract bats. Take care! Jeff in Central North Carolina where its 8 degrees C, overcast, and raining. ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 11:43:57 -0500 Subject: Re: RAIN Oh, Tom, While I have lids on them already, they are cheap garbage cans. I cannot trust the lids. I do have some plastic though from the pond/bog renovation that would seal it. Hmmm Thanks Becky ################### From: Rick Skalsky Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 08:42:43 PST Subject: Re: CP digest 229 RE: mosquito larvae in standing water In California they use a Mosquito fish (looks a lot like a non-fancy guppy) to take care of the larvae. I'll look for the scientific name, but it's commonly referred to as Mosquito fish and it's hardy. They use it in ponds and water fountains in the San Francisco Bay area which gets some decent frosts, but doesn't freeze ponds usually. You can also use feeder guppies or regular cheap goldfish. I'll email the scientific name if I find it. It sure beats using oil or kerosene. Garden centers also carry something I think is called Mosquito dunks or doughnuts which serve the same purpose but I don't know what they are made from. On another note, can someone list some decent understandable Tissue Culture books or magazine references? Thanks, Rick Skalsky ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 12:24:58 -0500 Subject: Re: RAIN No ducks-seems to be there should be a joke in there somewhere, I'll most likely think of it off line. But I do have gold fish. I was just afraid of their nitronous waste, but now that I think of it, it should keep the algae down too. I hope you don't get rains like we got rains. God tried to give us 2 years worth in one night. ################### From: "Walter Greenwood" Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 12:34:38 EST5EDT Subject: Re: D. adelae surprises Perry, et al, This may only be worth two cents, but ... I have always kept d. adelae in long-fibered or live sphagnum, and I remember reading recomendations to that effect somewhere many years ago. If I am behind the times on this one, please straighten me out, as half of my specimens are very happy, and half are not. As for the surprise, the fact that one is making babies does not neccesarily mean one is happy. Plants often flower in response to stress, for example, presumably as a last-ditch effort to secure the survival of their genes. Perhaps your trayful of little suckers is the plant's way of saying "HELP!". After only a week, are they really big enough to ID positively? ... probably only worth two cents. Perry. Thanks again for the narrative about your trip. Next time, take me with you! later, Gator ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 12:41:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Various Topics Jeff, I have that information also. About bats I mean. I have a book of Bat house recepies. If you have a bat house that is not attracting, change it's color(heat absorbancy) or direction. All of which is site specific. Latitudes and climate... Becky ################### From: korfhage@lis.pitt.edu (robert korfhage) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 12:46:26 EST Subject: Re: CP digest 229 Canadian postal codes are simple: They alternate letters and digits. The same is not true for British codes. Bob K. ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:12:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: D. adelae surprises One other thing I noticed when dividing up some D. adelae offshoots was the shallowness of the root system. It never went much below 2 inches down into the sphagnum, but was very extensive and made a thick band around the pot perimeter. When I repot this time I'll use a shallower container with more surface area for spreading room. Jeff in North Carolina ################### From: Trisha Coene Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 10:44:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Beginner Questions On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Ron Miller wrote: > Since I am planning on growing several species that like a lot of sun, it > seems that flourescent light will not be able to provide enough for the > plants. As a result, I am planning on buying some HID lights. I am currently > leaning towards buying a 175 Watt full-spectrum metal halide light. > > Is 175 Watts enough power for a very small setup? I realize that it is not > much more money to buy a slightly higher power setup, but I am concerned > about electricity usage (more for environmental reasons than actual cost), > and I don't want to buy a more powerful setup than I need. > Would I be better off buying a high pressure sodium setup? It seems that > sodium lighting is more efficient, although metal halide has a more natural > spectrum. As a result, I was leaning towards the metal halide setup (I also > don't like the orange glow of the sodium lights). > > Ron Hi Ron, I can answer all of your questions on lighting, so I will. I have a 45 gal. tall terrarium and have found that 2 36" long wide spectrum grow fluorescents suffice for orchids and CPs (I grow them together). As far as my CPs go, I have a Venus, trumpet pitcher and Cephalotus. If you want to go with a metal halide, 175 watt will be plenty. They burn quite hot (unlike fluorescents), so don't keep the tops of the plants too close to the bulb. MH lamps are higher in blue light which is great for blooming, but they are not as efficient as high pressure sodium and do not last as long. They also make an annoying hum, which is definitely something to think about if the terrarium is located in a central area. HPS lamps are pretty quiet.I hope I've answered your questions. Oh, and welcome to the group; I'm fairly new myself. :> Trish. ################### From: MZieg1234@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:57:50 -0500 Subject: Contamination of VFT and Hello! I would like to introduce myself and apologise for my hastily written first note. My name is Mike Ziegler. My main interest currently is cultivation of a variety of medicinal and gourmet fungi but last winter I propagated in vitro a number of plants including CP's like Dionaea just to see if I could. Before all of this I got my training in animal cell culture so I have roamed the Kingdoms a bit! To answer some of your questions I used leaf explants washed 3x with sterile distilled H20 containing 5% tween 20. Disinfection was Na hypochlorite store stock 5.25% diluted 1:10 with sterile distilled H20 plus tween 20 for 5 minutes with agitation. Tissue was placed in dilute MS media supplemented with zeatin per Minocha-HORTSCIENCE 20:216-217, 1985. I got massive die off bu t the biggest problem was with continued contamination in most cultures. I was able to get several cultures going and successfully grew and divided them as much as I wanted. As I said before I haven't had that problem with plant culture (or fungal culture for that matter). The idea did come to mind that these carnivorous strains have enzymes for breakdown of organic matter and I wondered if they supplemented an erratic diet with more consistent bacterial or fungal farming of sorts-thus the high bacterial, fungal count. The alternative is just that the tissues are more fragile than other plants. I have not had huge experience with plant culture so don't know if this is unusual or unique to CP's so forgive my possible ignorance! Thanks for the feedback. Mike Ziegler South Burlington VT. ################### From: "Jeffrey Michael Stein" Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 14:33:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fish > In California they use a Mosquito fish (looks a lot like a non-fancy guppy) The genus is probably _Gambusia_ or maybe _Heterandria_ (both are called Mosquito fish in different areas of the US). They are in the same family (Poeciliidae) as the Guppy (_Poecilia reticulata_), the Platy, Swordtail, etc. The family is live-bearing and the majority of the fish are voracious eaters of Mosquito larvae. Because they bear live fry, and reproduce quickly, they are very useful at lowering Mosquito populations and have even been planted in pools in areas where they previously did not inhabit. BTW, the females can store sperm in their bodies for a long time and it's not uncommon for baby fish to appear from 'no where'. JMS ################### From: Christopher Waldrop Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 14:17:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Mosquito Problems (Part II) While we're on the subject of mosquitoes, I know that several varieties of Sarracenia sometimes have mosquito larvae in their pitchers. I had heard/read somewhere that these were a non-biting species of mosquito, but, much as I would like to, I'm reluctant to add them to my collection until I was sure. Anyone know anything about this? ################### From: telenet!unicorn!dkpurks@uunet.uu.net (David K. Purks) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:22:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: bats > > Ronnie, I'll trade you some Drosera capensis for information on > how to build and locate a bat house that will really attract bats. The house isn't as important as how it smells...I saw something that said that they don't like "new" wood and that you should have the dung of other bats (not sure if this goes inside or on the ground under the house). You also need to be close to a source of water. ...then again, maybe it's all superstition... Dave ################### From: SaberCat1@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 15:56:00 -0500 Subject: Re: RAIN (WhiteClouds) I concur, with is addendum... White Cloud Mountain Fish which have been raised in our Tampa fish farms (or Imported from the Hong Kong/Singapore farms) for hundreds of inbreed generations have lost much of their "natural genetics" including a degree of cold resistance. Don't be suprised if a good cold spell sends them belly up. As an alternative or supplement, I would suggest Gambusia affinis, the Mosquito Fish. Hardy, mean enough to defend itself against the various insect larvae which predate fish and a voracious eater of Mosquito larvae. There is also a variation of BT which is host specific against Mosquitos, someone used to market it in the US under the name Mosquito Control. Maybe Safer's. John Laroche (sabercat1@aol.com) ################### From: "Michael.Chamberland" <23274MJC@MSU.EDU> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 16:02 EST Subject: RE: bats > > > > Ronnie, I'll trade you some Drosera capensis for information on > > how to build and locate a bat house that will really attract bats. > > The house isn't as important as how it smells...I saw something > that said that they don't like "new" wood and that you should > have the dung of other bats (not sure if this goes inside or on > the ground under the house). You also need to be close to a > source of water. I thought that a bat house could be constructed much like your standard wood-duck house, but must be fashioned and painted to look like the Addams Family mansion! :-) Michael ################### From: NBS/Haleakala Field Station Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:16:15 -1000 Subject: States' abbreviations (U.S. = United States of America) Following is a list of states' abbreviations, for all non-U.S. folks (and also U.S. folks who don't know/can't remember them): AK,Alaska AL,Alabama AR,Arkansas AZ,Arizona CA,California CO,Colorado CT,Connecticut DC,District of Columbia DE,Delaware FL,Florida GA,Georgia HI,Hawaii IA,Iowa ID,Idaho IL,Illinois IN,Indiana KS,Kansas KY,Kentucky LA,Louisiana MA,Massachusetts MD,Maryland ME,Maine MI,Michigan MN,Minnesota MO,Missouri MS,Mississippi MT,Montana NC,North Carolina ND,North Dakota NE,Nebraska NH,New Hampshire NJ,New Jersey NM,New Mexico NV,Nevada NY,New York OH,Ohio OK,Oklahoma OR,Oregon PA,Pennsylvania PR,Puerto Rico RI,Rhode Island SC,South Carolina SD,South Dakota TN,Tennessee TX,Texas UT,Utah VA,Virginia VI,Virgin Islands VT,Vermont WA,Washington WI,Wisconsin WV,West Virginia WY,Wyoming AFN,* -pt *Aloha For Now! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philip A. Thomas - National Biological Service - Haleakala N.P. Field Station [** Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent **] [** the position of the National Biological Service or my employer! **] ################### From: "John Phillips" Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 15:46:05 CST Subject: RE: bats In Message Fri, 20 Jan 1995 12:43:14 -0800, telenet!unicorn!dkpurks@uunet.uu.net (David K. Purks) writes: >> >> Ronnie, I'll trade you some Drosera capensis for information on >> how to build and locate a bat house that will really attract bats. > > The house isn't as important as how it smells...I saw something > that said that they don't like "new" wood and that you should > have the dung of other bats (not sure if this goes inside or on > the ground under the house). You also need to be close to a > source of water. > > ...then again, maybe it's all superstition... > > Dave If anyone knows of any good books on the subject of building houses for bats I'd like to know. Thanks, John Phillips UCSF Health Sciences Library Rm 202 Interlibrary Loan (415) 476-8383 ################### From: "John Phillips" Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 16:34:46 CST Subject: RE: RAIN In Message Wed, 18 Jan 1995 09:01:37 -0800, R5M@aol.com writes: I called last weekend, and they are doing fine. The roads are not in such good shape they said, but I'm planning on driving up on Sunday. >Has anyone in No. Cal. seen or heard from Peter d'Amato? John Phillips UCSF Health Sciences Library Rm 202 Interlibrary Loan (415) 476-8383 ################### From: Harold Slater Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 19:51:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Various Topics On Fri, 20 Jan 1995 WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV wrote: > For mosquito control, Gardener's Supply sells a floating ring > that releases a mosquitocidal bacteria for mosquito control. a.k.a BT or Bacillus thuringiensis. It usually works within 24 hours! There are a number of different sub-species with var. israelensis and H-14 working best. Natrual Insect Control in Stevensville, Ontario, Canada sells them as Vectobac (H-14) and DUNKS (B.t.isr). I've used them in rainbarrels with success harold ################### From: Harold Slater Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 19:56:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: CP digest 229 On Fri, 20 Jan 1995, robert korfhage wrote: > Canadian postal codes are simple: They alternate letters and digits. The > same is not true for British codes. easiest way to remember CDN codes is letter, number, letter number, letter, number Harold M4E 2S5 ################### From: John Taylor Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 12:14:45 +1100 Subject: Re: Fish (sorry to continue an off-topic topic...) >> In California they use a Mosquito fish (looks a lot like a non-fancy >> guppy) > > >The genus is probably _Gambusia_ or maybe _Heterandria_ (both are >called Mosquito fish in different areas of the US). They are in the >same family (Poeciliidae) as the Guppy (_Poecilia reticulata_), the >Platy, Swordtail, etc. The family is live-bearing and the majority of >the fish are voracious eaters of Mosquito larvae. Because they bear >live fry, and reproduce quickly, they are very useful at lowering >Mosquito populations and have even been planted in pools in areas where >they previously did not inhabit. BTW, the females can store sperm in >their bodies for a long time and it's not uncommon for baby fish to >appear from 'no where'. Here's food for thought about Mosquito Fish from "In The Spotlight - News From The Victorian Frog Group Vol.1 No.1" (which just arrived!) "Do not release Mosquito Fish (_Gambusia affinis_) into any water body! It is illegal to be in possession of this foreign pest species in some parts of Australia, and although it occurs in many areas in the wild, all efforts should be made to reduce and halt its spread. Although very small this fish will eat vast quantities of tadpoles and is capable of killing tadpoles several times its own size by simply ripping pieces off them! This species could easily decimate a backyard frog population." +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John Taylor [Catweasel] | Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | rphjt@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au | Department of Applied Physics | | | Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: Michael Livingston Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 20:09:30 PST Subject: Re: Mosquito Problems (Part II) >While we're on the subject of mosquitoes, I know that several >varieties of Sarracenia sometimes have mosquito larvae in their >pitchers. I had heard/read somewhere that these were a non-biting >species of mosquito, but, much as I would like to, I'm reluctant to >add them to my collection until I was sure. >Anyone know anything about this? I just watched a PBS home video called 'Death Trap', a _Nature_ episode devoted to CPs, that had an excellent segment on your Sarracenia and mosquitos. It did not say whether or not the mosquitos enjoyed humans. I did get the impression that the plant and mosquitos have a symbiotic relationship, the mosquito larvae helping crack open captured insects and providing nice fertilizer, the plant providing excellent safety. Do the Sarracenia require the mosquito larvae in their pitchers to do well? Or did it just work out well for the mosquitos? M ################### From: Perry Malouf Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 23:19:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: D. adelae, stressed plants, etc. Walter Greenwood wrote concerning the planting medium for D. adelae: > I have always kept d. adelae in long-fibered or live sphagnum, and I > remember reading recomendations to that effect somewhere many years > ago. Similarly, Chris Waldrop wrote: > ... D. adelae, prolifera, and schizandra do best with higher > humidity and lower light levels in either pure or long fiber sphagnum. I never bothered to consult my references about the growing medium for D. adelae. Ooops. :) Walter Greenwood then adds: > As for the surprise, the fact that one is making babies does not > neccesarily mean one is happy. Plants often flower in response to > stress, for example, presumably as a last-ditch effort to secure the > survival of their genes. Perhaps your trayful of little suckers is > the plant's way of saying "HELP!". After only a week, are they really > big enough to ID positively? Yes, I think the ID of the young plants is unmistakable now. Regarding the "last-ditch" effort of stressed plants, I've heard of orchids putting out blooms under such circumstances. I've never heard of plants growing lots of roots and sprouting up little plantlets from the roots in response to stress. I truly believe that the sprouting of new D. adelae plants is a sign that my plants are happy enough to grow extensive root systems. Both Walter and Chris write: > (Walter) > Perry. Thanks again for the narrative about your trip. Next time, > take me with you! > (Chris) > P.S. I really enjoyed your write-up of your trip. I don't grow any > nepenthes (because of space rather than taste) but seeing them in the > wild must be an extraordinary experience. You are both immensely welcome! I'm happy you enjoyed the write up. Hey, I'd go again in a minute if I had the money, the job security, and the time. If anyone is contemplating a trip and needs an "experienced guide", I'd be happy to tag along for the small fee of airfare, accomodations, meals, etc. :) Perry ################### From: Brian Jones Date: Fri, 20 Jan 95 22:01:10 PST Subject: Re: Various Topics > > Jeff, > I have that information also. About bats I mean. I have a book of Bat house > recepies. If you have a bat house that is not attracting, change it's > color(heat absorbancy) or direction. All of which is site specific. > Latitudes and climate... > Becky > Hey, why would one WANT a bat house, anyway? Even more so, why would one want bats in it? -BJ ################### From: SaberCat1@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 01:33:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Mosquito Problems (Part II) non-biting mosquito in sarracenia? Maybe, there are many non-biting spp.; but in our prime we had thousands of Sarracenia and the few that we saw Mosquitos in (mostly purpurea) contain the regular biting kind. I wouldn't deny yourself the pleasure of growing these fascinating plants on the worry of a few mosquitos. The risk of a serious infestation is far less than say with rosette forming Bromeliads. Saber (sabercat1@aol.com) ################### From: SaberCat1@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 01:57:37 -0500 Subject: Re: CP digest 229 I suppose as long as it remains green. It should serve some purpose. It is certainly still viable if the lid has browned off. Just make sure there's liquid in there and keep it as long as you can. Saber ################### From: "David Johnson" Date: Sat, 21 Jan 95 09:52:28 CST Subject: Introduction Hi, my name is David Johnson. I have a few Drosera capensis that were given to me by a fellow orchid grower about a year ago. One of them bloomed and now I have a couple of pots of babies. I am interested in growing and propagating CPs. I have a few questions: What is ICPS (International Carnivorous Plant Society - I suppose)? Could someone E-mail me some info on it? I am interested in propagating CPs from seed. I have read about sowing seed on composts in pots. Is it more efficient to grow them in sterile flasks? I already grow orchids from seed in sterile flasks. Does someone out there do this? thanks for your time... David Johnson PS: Bats are neat, I wish there were more around my house. ################### From: SaberCat1@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 12:06:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Asceptic Germination CP Seed In response to Orchid grower Dave Johnsons question about the Asceptic Gernination of CP seeds: This method works for me for many Drosera, Venus Fly Trap (especially), some pitchers (not the best formula): Use mature seed, do not scarify. Sterilize: 1/10 bleach/Tween 20 for ten minutes under agitation; distilled water rinse. Germination media(one of several): one half strength MS Salts with full strength Minimal Organics amended with: 100mg/l Casien, 100mg/l Inositol, 30g/l sucrose, 7g/l agar. pH:5.9. Culture at 80 degrees, at least 300ftc for 16 hours daily. Multiplication and Rooting Medium: as above with 0.2mg/l NAA and 5.0mg/l 2iP. Polyphenol production can be combated with the addition of filtered Ascorbic acid and citric acid. CP's are great for orchid growers they both take forever and a day to grow. ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 13:16:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Fish (sorry to continue a... Dear John, One man's pest is another man's abatement. These fish are actually given away here. Since they will be living all alone and in the dark, perhaps I should look into those blind albino catfish. Think so? Thanks a bunch, Becky ################### From: R5M@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 13:18:44 -0500 Subject: Re: bats Mosquito abatement. ################### From: jford@ruacad.ac.runet.edu Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 19:09:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Gordon Cheers Book Hi all, Over the last couple of months a number of people have reported difficulty finding a copy of Gordon Cheers book - _A Guide to Carnivorous Plants of the World_. I just ran across a source for it today (and cheap at that). I got a sales listing from the Edward R. Hamilton company (a discontinued and remaindered bookseller) and they are advertising the Cheers book for a nifty $24.95 (sob - I paid $45 about 6 months ago). For those of you who are on the mailing list for ERH and have or will get the sales list, it is on page 6, column 1 about half way down; for those not on their list the company address is: Edward R. Hamilton Falls Village CT 06031-5000 The item number is 855189, price $24.95, shipping $3 per order. In the past I have ordered from them simply by sending them a letter giving them the item number, title and author and price and enclosing a check for the appropriate amount so I would suppose this would still work. If you are not on their mailing list, all you have to do is write and ask to be added. They have an interesting, constantly changing list of books in a variety of areas at a 20 to 60 per cent discount to the published price; their service is prompt (usually 10 - 14 days) and accurate (I've never had an error in an order) and they are very accommodating if you need to return a book for any reason. Over the last ten years I have bought 80 - 100 books from them (mostly indoor gardening, cooking, art and science) without any problems. This has gotten to be much longer than I had intended so I guess I'd better cut it off now. John Ford jford@ruacad.ac.runet.edu ################### From: SteveB4706@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 20:14:05 -0500 Subject: CP's are now on Power Rangers. All you CPers, Now the Power Rangers most deal with a New EVIL SPACE ALIENS Known as the Snapping Chest Invenusable Fly Trap. He comes from an Island called Venus Island that is contolled by Lord Zed. If you most have one of these Aliens you can find them at K-Mart or Toys R US. They are in the Series II Action Feature Item # 2341 Enjoy, Steve ################### From: sportman@students.wisc.edu (Scott Portman) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 23:09:15 -0600 Subject: Re: Gordon Cheers Book John Ford notes that many people have had difficulty locating Gordon Cheer's Carnivorous Plants of the World. I read about a source here on this list last Nov - so for those of you who are looking for this book, here it is again: Discount Garden Books PO Box 8354 Portland OR 97207-8354 The price was $17.95 + $5.00 shipping. I bought a copy - it's worth it for the fine photographs and cultivation info, but has numerous minor errors. In particular, some photos are mis-labeled or switched. In one case, the same photograph is used to illustrate two different species - Genlisea repens and Utric. quelchii - not even in the same genus! (I recall someone on the list edited a CP book, and was upset that the publisher disregarded all their corrections - if this was the book, no offense is intended!) A question: does one need to stratify pygmy drosera seed - D dichrosepala etc? I'm getting ready to plant my first batch. ################### From: Martin.Zevenbergen@ALGEM.PT.WAU.NL (martin zevenbergen) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 14:24:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: D. adelae pollination Last Friday Jeff wrote: >they are sending up about 12 flower spikes. I plan on dividing the >pots after I collect seed so I'll offer up extras then. Can I have some seed if you're successfull? >Does anyone known if D. adelae needs assistance in pollination >or will they self easily? Also, can they be crossed with D. prolifera? Some years ago, I had D. adelae in terrarium, but lost it during a holiday. I had also a lot of seed, which I gave to the Dutch cp society seed bank. My experience was that you need to pollinate the flowers with a little brush. If you don't do this you will get only deaf (not filled) seed. I never had D.prolifera, but you can try to cross them, but use different brushes for different pollen, and if it's possible, remove the an