################### From: Don_Burns-EPUR01@amail.mot.com Date: 2 Jan 94 22:10:50 -0600 Subject: FW: Journal of Tropical Forest Science 5(1) > would you perchance know the address of the publisher of this document >is it in english? even knowing of all the errors or perhaps because of >them i would enjoy seeing it. Kevin, The address you were looking for in Kuala Lumpur is as follows courtesy of a friend in Penang: Director General, Institut Penyelidikan Perhutanan Malaysia (FRIM), 52109, Kepong, Kuala Lumpur. Tel : 60-3-634-2633 Fax : 60-3-636-7753 I suggest you address your correspondence as above. The letter inside the envelope can be in English. If you decide to call you should have no trouble finding someone who speaks English. Its been several years since I have been there, but I believe KL is EST plus 13 hours. Don Burns epur01@email.mot.com ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 09:31:38 MST XSubject: FW: Journal of Tropical Forest Science 5(1) Welcome back Varmints! I've got my _Sarracenia_ seed in the greenhouse in a chilly area (gets to 50 F at night) in the sun, and some are starting to germinate already! This is surprising to me. I used to store _Sarracenia_ seed in the refrigerator for about 4 months for stratification, but it seems that for at least some of the seed, just 4 weeks of chilly weather is fine. I see I have a seedling of _S.alata_ from Angelina Texas germinating, which I'm very excited about. I got this from a packet of ancient, nearly all dead seed from the ICPS seed bank, and am pretty surprised that even one seed germinated. On a far more irritating note, I just watered my _Nepenthes_ which I keep in my office. Something seemed a bit strange about the water (I keep a jug of distilled water in my office), so I tasted it. Dammit! My office mate keeps some sea anemones by his desk, and by adding some damned brine mix packet to *MY* distilled water, he turned it into sea water. So now I have to come back to the office tonight and flush out all my plants which I just watered with brine. I am irritated. Fortunately I only watered two of the plants, but since they are in a terrarium, the entire tank has been compromised. Sheesh. :( Barry ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 09:37:56 -0800 Subject: happy new year? nice to see you back i was geting fairly lonesome with no action on the listserv. that was kind of forward of that person to just help them selvs that way to your nepenthes water that way! i hope you use some verry firm tones with the dope. kevin s. ################### From: MALOUF@ESTD.NRL.NAVY.MIL Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 12:49:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nepenthes watered with brine Hey Barry, Sorry to hear about what happened! Maybe you should surreptitiously fill your distilled water jug with potassium chloride brine instead of sodium chloride brine :). Let's see how your office mate's sea anemones like it! It's a pain to have to flush out a terrarium. I hope your Nepenthes pull through. Perry ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 10:55:48 MST Subject: Re: happy new year? >listserv. that was kind of forward of that person to just help them selvs >that way to your nepenthes water that way! i hope you use some verry firm >tones with the dope. Yeah, well he has some water stored in the room too. No doubt it was just an oversight on his part. Mistakes happen---that's just part of being an organic life form! B ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 17:38:30 +0000 XSubject: Re: happy new year? +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Sorry for this late reply but I'll still bother otherwise I feel somehat all parasitic on this conference! >When propagating Mexican Pings, do you Ping-experts use the small, >succulentleaves of the resting plant, or the larger leaves when the plant is >actively growing? You can use either. If the large leaves, you'll get messy (yeuch) but they sdtill work. Advantage is that they can be cut into chunks so you get more damaged edge so you get more plantlets. Disadvantage is that they need higher temperature and humidity to stimulate the plantlet generation. Small leaves("winter") are easier, there are more of them but they generally produce fewer plantlets each, often only 1 each. Exceptions to above are: P. alfredae - grows a new plantlet at end of each sinuous summer leaf. Winter leaves are so small and scale like that they are very difficult to use (don't know anyone whose even tried!!!) P. gypsophila - summer leaves not tried (by me). Winter leaves,treat as a true succulent. Detach them. Leave them in open air, warmish (60F/15C minimum), for about 1 week, a little longer shouldn't matter. Detached tips will dry, then harden, then form bumps. After 1 week, treat as normal Ping cutting and you should get better than 90% strike rate. P. primuliflora - why bother? It makes lots of plantlets on its summer leaf ends without any help at all! >In the wild, why does the plant rest? Is it to survive a cooler >winter or a hotter summer? Or is seasonal drought the issue? Drought(ish)! >I am always pondering a trip down to Oaxaca and that area to look for Pings. I >have been through only a few Mexican Ping habitats, but have >never had the opportunity to stop (although each time, as I rode the Mexican >bus through the mountains near Guadalajara, I kept my face pressed longingly >against the glass looking out!). If anyone was ever serious about a trip to Mexico to hunt Ping's, I'd consider it. But it would have to be for more than one! Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 18:10:38 +0000 Subject: Re: New Subscriber Speaks. +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Rupes (Rupes?) So you must know Alastaire? Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 18:00:14 +0000 Subject: Re: +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG >Northern Belize is probabally another area that would be of interest to people >hunting CP's. First, most of Belize is good for CPs but mainly Utrics, especially the aquatics. There's a couple of Drosera (I gave the one I found to a CP'er in Carolina who promptly never spoke to me again! This was despite my also giving him N. rajah - which I no longer have since I gave to him, so don't ask!!!) There are no Pings that I know of, nor much of anything else carnivorous. Second, did you catch the lie above. Au contraire (you do speak French don't you?), EVERYTHING is carnivorous. Basic rule in Belize - if it moves, it sucks blood. Be warned - don't say I didn't tell you. Third, in Belize they have the Fer de Lance. Who in their right mind would hunt CP's at risk of meeting one of them? Forget that I did, it's just a rhetorical question. Do take out insurance though. You need a jet to Miami IMMEDIATELY if bitten plus about 9 months to learn to exist again (I'm serious). Fourth, (you did all know I could count didn't you?), you're being kind - almost all the Belizian brits are "pompous, arrogant airheads" but I'm afraid we've a lot more everywhere else too, not just Belize!!! What was it someone recently said abouit 'orrible americans abroad - let no-one doubt the British ability to be horrible-er. Fifth, to reiterate, if anyone's serious about Mexico (NOT Belize - notice the emphasis on NOT), I'd be interested depending on the warning time, duration, etc.. Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 18:12:30 +0000 Subject: Re: +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG And if Cacti are so great, what about the Bromeliads? No-one ever mentions Broms! Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 18:07:52 +0000 Subject: Re: +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG >Please bear in mind that I was born in Guildford, Surrey, near London. Idon't >hold the attitude that all Brits (or Britt's for that matter ;)) are >brain dead twits, only those in the Foreign Service...... You of all people, a Brit, seem to be forgetting: All government employees Ford UK The Post Office The Gas Companies The Electricity companies All british hotel reps Brit tourists that eat chips (fries) overseas unless in the USA Brit tourists that spend a week anywhere and never teavel further than a mile from the hotel Brit tourists that go to Spain, Tenerrife, Majorca Brit tourist that travel by plane with Children Need I go on? Regards Paul (European) ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 13:18:58 MST XSubject: Re: Paul: Thanks for the information on the _Pings_. It seems that most people prefer to use the more succulent leaves. They are, as you noted, less messy. Several weeks ago I took a few leaves from just about every _Ping_ I have and I have gotten 100% strike rate, so I'm feeling pretty pleased. Every Mexican _Ping_, that is. The U.S. ones I propagate by seed. My _P.agnata_ is flowering and after I took a variety of measurements (and preserved the corolla lobes for Jan to ponder) I selfed it. I'm hoping to get lucky here. >P. alfredae - grows a new plantlet at end of each sinuous summer leaf. I am sad to admit that recently I was sent a few plantlets of this interesting species and managed to lose it. I have difficulty with the plants that require a high-pH medium. >P. gypsophila - summer leaves not tried (by me). Winter leaves,treat You mean _P.gypsicola_? >>I am always pondering a trip down to Oaxaca and that area to look for >If anyone was ever serious about a trip to Mexico to hunt Ping's, I'd >consider it. But it would have to be for more than one! Indeed I am serious in going---in that I intend to go sometime within the next 3 years. But I have no firmer information than that. I think I have to wait for my and my wife's finances to stabilize a bit. She doesn't know any spanish and so she's enrolling in a class today. I'm taking it with her *porque necesito practicar* in a big way! I don't know how variable spanish is in Mexico, having only explored a few estados, but I'm curious if the strong indian influence in the Oaxaca regions change things much... Barry ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 15:10:14 +0800 Subject: Re: >>>Please bear in mind that I was born in Guildford, Surrey, near London. >> Idon't >hold the attitude that all Brits (or Britt's for that matter ;)) are >>>brain dead twits, only those in the Foreign Service...... >> >>You of all people, a Brit, seem to be forgetting: >> All government employees >> Ford UK >> The Post Office >> The Gas Companies >> The Electricity companies >> Brit tourist that travel by plane with Children Well, here in the US we must have a lot of imported Brit(t?)s working in the same services as you list above, for your rule to hold :-). >> Brit tourists that spend a week anywhere and never teavel further than >> a mile from the hotel Ahhh, this reminds me of that (for a change :-)) funny British comedy which one of our networks have acquired: Are You Being Served? They did a great sendup of the entire store staff going to some place in Spain for vacation. And at that, I didn't get the joke about never traveling away from the hotel :-). Robert ################### From: michael Date: Tue, 04 Jan 1994 18:54:36 -0700 (MST) XSubject: Re: >Indeed I am serious in going---in that I intend to go sometime within the >next 3 years. But I have no firmer information than that. I think I have >to wait for my and my wife's finances to stabilize a bit. She doesn't know >any spanish and so she's enrolling in a class today. I'm taking it with >her *porque necesito practicar* in a big way! I don't know how variable >spanish is in Mexico, having only explored a few estados, but I'm curious I don't know spanish, but from what I've hear from other botanical explorers, the answer is yes! >if the strong indian influence in the Oaxaca regions change things much... > >Barry ################### From: michael Date: Tue, 04 Jan 1994 18:58:15 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: On Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:35:26 -0800 Paul Temple said: > >Second, did you catch the lie above. Au contraire (you do speak French >don't you?), EVERYTHING is carnivorous. Basic rule in Belize - if it >moves, it sucks blood. Be warned - don't say I didn't tell you. > >Third, in Belize they have the Fer de Lance. Who in their right mind >would hunt CP's at risk of meeting one of them? Forget that I did, >it's just a rhetorical question. Do take out insurance though. You >need a jet to Miami IMMEDIATELY if bitten plus about 9 months to learn >to exist again (I'm serious). > Good gods, chap! Blasted place sounds as bad as the Isle of Komodo :-) Michael ################### From: 98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 19:04:57 PST Subject: New member I've just recently joined your newsgroup. I've recently graduated from washington state univ with my BS in Microbiology. Truthfully, I have limited experience with CP's but very curious. Perhaps one of you can point out a few good written resources for beginners and I would appreciate any advice and recommendations for plants for the newcomer. address is: Kirk Martin 1100 vanarsdol st clarkston, wa 99403 If anyone has composed a plant list I would be curious to know what is out there? Thanks. I used to grow various succulents before joining the navy so not totally plant illiterate. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 08:55:49 +0800 Subject: Re: >>On a far more irritating note, I just watered my _Nepenthes_ which I keep in >>my office. Something seemed a bit strange about the water (I keep a jug >>of distilled water in my office), so I tasted it. Dammit! My office mate >>keeps some sea anemones by his desk, and by adding some damned brine mix >>packet to *MY* distilled water, he turned it into sea water. So now I have >>to come back to the office tonight and flush out all my plants which I just >>watered with brine. I am irritated. Fortunately I only watered two of the >>plants, but since they are in a terrarium, the entire tank has been >>compromised. Sheesh. Someone accidentally or intentionally poisoning my water jugs here at work is one of my worst fears. Fortunately my office mate has neither plants nor fish. You're lucky it was Nepenthes. They are the most resistant to bad water, but it's still no fun to have to clean out a terrarium :-(. R. ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 10:21:28 GMT+1 Subject: hello Andreas Wistuba A.Wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de Hello! As I m new to this carnivorous plant discussion group I want to introduce myself shortly: I m 26 years old and became interested in CP s about twelve years ago. After I was first interested in any CP s, I ve now specialised in Nepenthes and Heliamphora which I grow in a greenhouse, under fluorescent tubes and in vitro. At the moment I m mainly interested in tissue culture propagation of various CP s (mainly Nepenthes and Heliamphora). I became interested in this e-mail-group by Jan Schlauer who also told me that recently a plant order from my pricelist was organized via this list. So perhaps some of you know that I run some kind of a part time nursery selling in-vitro-propagated plants. Besides my interest in CP I like travelling to far-away countries. I combined both interests some times by travelling to Venezuela and to Indonesia and Malaysia a few times in search for Heliamphora and Nepenthes. In Indonesia I travelled to Kalimantan, Sulawesi and Sumatra. Another Interest of myself is nature-photography. I studied biology at Heidelberg University and specialized in molecular biology. At the moment I m working at the German Cancer Institute (dkfz) and doing my Ph.D-thesis there. I m interested in communicating with people who are interested in the same fields as I am and I d also be glad to change plants and informations..... . I hope this was the way of self-introduction which was requested for. Please excuse my english-errors. Is anyone also working with tissue cultures of CP? Did anybody succeed meristemming Nepenthes? Does anybody grow tuberous Drosera in vitro? I d like to trade young plants of Nepenthes for other Nepenthes I do not yet grow or for tubers of tuberous Droseras. I have Heliamphora tatei, Nepenthes inermis and more to trade for other rare Nepenthes or Heliamphora s. I d be very happy to find some mails in the computer. ################### From: shlam@hkueee.hku.hk Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 17:40:14 HKT XSubject: hello On Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:37:13 -0800 "Paul Temple" > wrote: > > And if Cacti are so great, what about the Bromeliads? No-one ever mentions Br oms! > I'm interested in Broms, especially Tillandsias. I have a hard time, trying to establish contacts with other bromeliad growers. Do you know of a bromeliads mailing list? Regards, --- Shing Lam shlam@hkueee.hku.hk ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 11:25:09 +0100 Subject: Re: hello Andreas, Nice to see you have managed your way here! You wrote: >Is anyone also working with tissue cultures of CP? Yes, I am (Lentibulariaceae only). OK, probably this isn't news for you. >Does anybody grow tuberous Drosera in vitro? I think some friend of Joachim Nerz did succed with in vitro germination of _D.fimbriata_ (!!) recently (Jo' told so yesterday evening, if I recall that correctly). >I d be very happy to find some mails in the computer. You'll soon be happy if you don't have too many mails there, I'm afraid ;-) Kind regards Jan ################### From: MALOUF@ESTD.NRL.NAVY.MIL Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 7:58:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Welcome, Andreas >Andreas Wistuba writes: >Hello! >As I m new to this carnivorous plant discussion group I want to >introduce myself shortly: (some stuff deleted) Hello Andreas, I will add a rejoinder to Jan Schlauer's welcome! The few Nepenthes I have are grown under fluorescent lights during the winter. I keep them in clear plastic bags to maintain adequate humidity, and they seem to do just fine. Already I see several new pitchers on my N. Alata and N. Khasiana. In the summer I take the plants outside (I live just outside of Washington, DC where the summers are generally hot and humid). Your list of Nepenthes seems rather long and, unfortunately, the plants I have are already included on it (I think). Did your list include N. Khasiana? I don't remember, but here in the States it's not hard to find. Two other enthusiasts I know, who do not have INTERNET access, are Rob Sacilotto and Bill McLaughlin. Rob has a nursery where he raises Sarraceniae, Nepenthes, Droserae, and other CP's along with many other interesting plants. Bill McLaughlin takes care of the CP collection at the U.S. Botanic Garden here in Washington, DC which has a fairly good Nepenthes collection. I act as their ears and voices over the INTERNET. >I became interested in this e-mail-group by Jan Schlauer who also told >me that recently a plant order from my pricelist was organized via this >list. So perhaps some of you know that I run some kind of a part time >nursery selling in-vitro-propagated plants. (more stuff deleted) I, Rob, and Bill are among those who are participating in the group order as organized by Don Burden. Don is also a subscriber to this group and now that you have e-mail access then arrangement of the order will probably be a lot easier for everyone. At last count, the order requested from you adds up to quite a bit. (I wonder if you have enough cultures of N. Rajah to satisfy the demand? :)). >... At the moment I m working at the German Cancer Institute >(dkfz) and doing my Ph.D-thesis there. (more stuff deleted) I sympathize with this--I'm trying to finish my Ph.D. thesis in electrical engineering at U. of Maryland. >Is anyone also working with tissue cultures of CP? >Did anybody succeed meristemming Nepenthes? >Does anybody grow tuberous Drosera in vitro? Bill McLaughlin informs me that Ron Gagliarda has successfully propagated tuberous Droserae via tissue culture. Ron was until very recently the proprietor of Hungry Plants, a CP nursery which is now either out of business or under a different business arrangement (others in the group know more about this). He has now taken a job at the Botanic Garden in Atlanta, according to Bill. >I d like to trade young plants of Nepenthes for other Nepenthes I do not >yet grow or for tubers of tuberous Droseras. >I have Heliamphora tatei, Nepenthes inermis and more to trade for >other rare Nepenthes or Heliamphora s. >I d be very happy to find some mails in the computer. You won't be disappointed, I'm sure! Again, welcome. It's nice to have you here. Perry Malouf ################### From: Leif Johansson Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 14:17:01 +0100 XSubject: Welcome, Andreas unsubscribe cp ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 11:01:25 MST XSubject: Welcome, Andreas >Someone accidentally or intentionally poisoning my water jugs >here at work is one of my worst fears. Fortunately my office It took nearly three hours to flush out the plants, rinse them off, and clean out the terrarium. Blech. Barry ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 12:06:12 GMT+1 Subject: Re: hello > Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 02:26:21 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: hello Hello Jan! Of cause I know thet you're working on Lentibulariaceae in vitro and in fact I even know that Mathias Schmidt was able to germinate D. fimbriata in vitro. I was just looking for people I do not yet know working with plant tissue cultures of CP. ========================================================== ========================================================== I was able to establish in vitro cultures of "tuberous" Drosera's by taking sterilized stem internodes of upright types and "not-yet-opened rosettes" of rosette-types. Therefor I'm looking for new material to work with; especially upright types. ========================================================== ========================================================== Does anybody grow Heliamphora neblinae and/or has seeds of this sp??? All the best Andreas Wistuba ################### From: p00758@psilink.com Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 10:47:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcome, Andreas Welcome to all the new members. Hope you like the group. Unlike Leif Johansson > The few Nepenthes I have are grown under fluorescent >lights during the winter. I keep them in clear plastic bags >to maintain adequate humidity, and they seem to do just fine. >Already I see several new pitchers on my N. Alata and N. Khasiana. I'm experimenting with low humidity for Nepenthes right now. I've got three _N.alata_ and a _N.khasiana_ sitting on my windowsill out in the open. The humidity has got to be pretty low since we've got snow on the ground, but the N.alata's seem to be growing fairly well (and pitching nicely). >In the summer I take the plants outside (I live just outside >of Washington, DC where the summers are generally hot and humid). I'm thinking about going back to school for my masters in Computer Science and my top choice at this point is U.California at Berkeley, so hopefully I'll be able to experience some of this miraculous west coast weather. >Bill McLaughlin informs me that Ron Gagliarda has successfully >propagated tuberous Droserae via tissue culture. Ron was >until very recently the proprietor of Hungry Plants, a CP >nursery which is now either out of business or under a different >business arrangement (others in the group know more about this). I think that he's getting away from selling retail CP and is going to try selling wholesale CP, such as the Venus Flytrap, to commercial growers. They will probably be sold as novelty items in florist shops and similar places. Davin ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Thu, 06 Jan 1994 09:16:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hungry Plants Hi Folks, I hope everyone had a great holiday season. Perry's right that Ron Gagliardo has moved down to the Atlanta Botanical Garden. The Company status as per December's CPN is Wholesale only for Hungry Plants. The retail business is being handled through Southern Carnivores (a reincarnation of of World Insectivorous Plants?) with the following address being used for both companies: P.O. Box 864081, Marietta, GA 30060. Take Care, Jeff (in North Carolina) ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 11:25:09 MST XSubject: Hungry Plants In the most recent CPN (22:4) is an article on p86 re: _Heliamphora_. There is some interesting information regarding the nature of the sandy Tepui soil, temperature extremes etc for the plants in the wild. The text is pretty short, but the author present a key and checklist of features for the species. While the article is nice, there is this photo that really gets me irritated. Why must people go to these places and then have a picture taken of them holding a rare plant they tore out of the ground? Yep, there's the author with a nice _H.ionasii_, his trophy kill for the safari. Why couldn't he have been kneeling down by some lovely plants still growing? Commune vs. conquest. Hmmph! Jan, this guy lists the following taxa _H.nutans_ _H.minor_ _H.minor f. laevis_ _H.ionasii_ _H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa_ _H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa f. glabella_ _H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata_ _H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata f. glabella_ _H.tatei var. tatei_ _H.tatei var. tatei f. macdonaldae_ _H.tatei var. tatei f. tyleri_ _H.tatei var. neblinae_ _H.tatei var. neblinae f. parva_ Being something of a lumper in philosophy, I have a certain distaste for all these names. Are the various forms and varieties even published? Barry ################### From: R Britt Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 10:36:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: hello Hi Andreas, It is nice to have you aboard, having seen all the discussion of the nice propogation you have been doing! I wanted to mention that I am planning to visit Heidelberg some time this coming summer. Can I invite myself to come visit you? :) -Dave Britt ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:37:42 GMT+1 Subject: Re: hello > Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 10:57:18 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: R Britt > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: hello > Hi Andreas, > > It is nice to have you aboard, having seen all the discussion > of the nice propogation you have been doing! I wanted to > mention that I am planning to visit Heidelberg some time > this coming summer. Can I invite myself to come visit you? :) > > -Dave Britt > > > > > You're invited! > ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:47:35 +0100 Subject: _Heliamphora_ Barry, you wrote re _Heliamphora_ article in CPN: >While the article is nice, there is this photo that really gets me >irritated. Why must people go to these places and then have a picture >taken of them holding a rare plant they tore out of the ground? Yep, >there's the author (...) Is it the author (WILLIAM BAUMGARTL) or JONAH BOYAN? If it is the second, he's the one who originally found _H.ionasii_, named after him (ionasii being Latin for "Jonah's") by B.MAGUIRE, and what he has in his hands is indeed the TYPE SPECIMEN of this species (there was such a photo in a past issue of CPN, already). Unfortunately, types must not be living plants and thus, they have to be eradicated 8-( If it is the author himself, he's indeed got bad manners! 8-( 8-( I don't have that issue of CPN yet, so I cannot decide which is the case. >with a nice _H.ionasii_, his trophy kill for the >safari. Why couldn't he have been kneeling down by some lovely plants >still growing? Commune vs. conquest. Hmmph! > >Jan, this guy lists the following taxa >_H.nutans_ >_H.minor_ >_H.minor f. laevis_ >_H.ionasii_ >_H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa_ >_H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa f. glabella_ >_H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata_ >_H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata f. glabella_ >_H.tatei var. tatei_ >_H.tatei var. tatei f. macdonaldae_ >_H.tatei var. tatei f. tyleri_ >_H.tatei var. neblinae_ >_H.tatei var. neblinae f. parva_ > >Being something of a lumper in philosophy, I have a certain distaste >for all these names. Are the various forms and varieties even published? There are only 5 species, and the many infraspecific taxa need not disturb you (these are indeed the result of many years of rather thorough comparative study in the field as well as in herbaria of the infraspecific variability in this genus, which is rather confusing for people who are not familiar with the plants). Two of the names listed above are not published and obviously errors: >_H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa f. glabella_ The author certainly means _H.h.var.h.f.glabra_ >_H.tatei var. tatei f. tyleri_ This may be an (inappropriate and *invalid*) attempt to re-establish some kind of _H.tyleri_, which is considered a synonym of _H.tatei_ not deserving any taxonomic status since the late B.MAGUIRE's revision (MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:57 (1978)). A comprehensive generic realignment including a key (is it the same key as presented in the CPN article? I don't think so because Don mentioned W.BAUMGARTL relied mainly on flower characters) has been published by the late J.A. STEYERMARK (ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984)). Since then, the genus looks like: (extracted from my nomenclatural synopsis) _Heliamphora_ BENTH. _H.heterodoxa_ STEYERM., FIELDIANA BOT.28:239 (1951) T:Ptari-tepui, Bolivar, 2.11.1944, J.A.Steyermark 59766 (F); Mt.Ptari-tepui Ven. _H.heterodoxa_ STEYERM. _f.glabra_ (MAGUIRE) STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) BN:H.heterodoxa STEYERM. var.glabra MAGUIRE ; Serra do Sol _H.heterodoxa_ STEYERM. _var.exappendiculata_ MAGUIRE & STEYERM., MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:54 (1978) T:Churi-tepui, 1 km N Camp 8, NW slope, Bolivar, 29.11.1953, J.J.Wurdack 34262 (NY); Mt.Churi-Tepui, Chimanta-Tepui Ven. _H.heterodoxa_ STEYERM. _var.exappendiculata_ MAGUIRE & STEYERM. _f.glabella_ STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) T:Auyan-tepui between Drizzly Camp & Second Wall, Bolivar, 11.5.1964, J.A.Steyermark 93712 (VEN); Mt.Auyan-tepui Ven. H.heterodoxa STEYERM. var.glabra MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:54 (1978) T:Serra do Sol, 28.12.1954, B. & C.Maguire 40412 (NY)= heterodoxa STEYERM. f.glabra (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. _H.ionasii_ MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:54 (1978) T:between N peak & central plateau of Ilu-tepui, 15.3.1952, B.Maguire & Jonah Boyan 33418 (NY); Mt.Ilu- tepui Ven. H.macdonaldae GLEASON, BULL.TORR.CL.58:367 (1931)} T:top of peak 7 of Mt.Duida, 8.1928, G.H.H.Tate 1022 (NY)= tatei GLEASON f.macdonaldae (GLEASON) STEYERM. _H.minor_ GLEASON, BRITTONIA 3:164 (1939) T:Auyan-tepui, Bolivar, 12.1937, G.H.H.Tate 1126 (NY); Mt.Auyan-tepui Ven. _H.minor_ GLEASON _f.laevis_ STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) T:Auyan- tepui, Bolivar, 1.1949, F.Cardona 2661 (VEN); Mt.Auyan-tepui Ven. H.neblinae MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:57 (1978) T:1-8 km N Cumbre Camp, Cerro de la Neblina, Amazonas, 10.1.1954, B.M.J.Wurdack & Bunting 37151 (NY)= tatei GLEASON var.neblinae (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. H.neblinae MAGUIRE var.parva MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:59 (1978) T:5 km W Cumbre Camp, Cerro de la Neblina, Amazonas, 6.1.1954, B.M.J.Wurdack & Bunting 37141 (NY)= tatei GLEASON var.neblinae (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. f.parva (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. H.neblinae var.viridis MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:59 (1978) T:above Camp 3, Cerro de la Neblina, Amazonas, 24.12.1953, B.Maguire & al. 36834 (NY)= tatei GLEASON var.neblinae (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. _H.nutans_ BENTH., TRANS.LINN.SOC.18:432 (1840)}{\b T:Mt.Roraima, R.Schomburgk 645 (K); Mt.Roraima Ven. _H.tatei_ GLEASON, BULL.TORR.CL.58:368 (1931) T:crest of ridge 25, Mt.Duida, Amazonas, 26.11.1928, G.H.Tate 453 (NY); Mt.Duida Ven. _H.tatei_ GLEASON _f.macdonaldae_ (GLEASON) STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) BN:H.macdonaldae GLEASON; Mt.Duida Ven. H.tatei GLEASON var.macdonaldae (GLEASON) MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:57 (1978) BN:H.macdonaldae GLEASON = tatei GLEASON f.macdonaldae (GLEASON) STEYERM. _H.tatei_ GLEASON _var.neblinae_ (MAGUIRE) STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) BN:H.neblinae MAGUIRE Cerro de la Neblina Ven. _H.tatei_ GLEASON _var.neblinae_ (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. _f.parva_ (MAGUIRE) STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) BN:H.neblinae MAGUIRE var.parva MAGUIRE; Cerro de la Neblina Ven. H.tyleri GLEASON, BULL.TORR.CL.58:368 (1931) T:Savannah hills, summit of Mt.Duida, Tate 1044 (NY)= tatei GLEASON It is a somewhat depressing fact that both specialists (MAGUIRE and STEYERMARK) in the genus _Heliamphora_ have died in the past few years. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:51:55 GMT+1 Subject: Re: > Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 10:30:04 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: > In the most recent CPN (22:4) is an article on p86 re: _Heliamphora_. > There is some interesting information regarding the nature of the > sandy Tepui soil, temperature extremes etc for the plants in the wild. > The text is pretty short, but the author present a key and checklist of > features for the species. > > While the article is nice, there is this photo that really gets me > irritated. Why must people go to these places and then have a picture > taken of them holding a rare plant they tore out of the ground? Yep, > there's the author with a nice _H.ionasii_, his trophy kill for the > safari. Why couldn't he have been kneeling down by some lovely plants You critisize the photograph of Bill showing him with a plant of the species he calls H. ionasii (In fact in my opinion it's not ionasii but a new species). As I was also shown with a ionasii plant in CPN a few years ago I can explain for vmy part: I think the actual size of an impressing plant is shown much better than in comparison with a camera-lenscap, pack of cigarettes.... . And in fact I did not throw away my plant after the photo was taken but cut off the leaves and packing it away. I'm sure Bill did the same. You can of cause criticize taking plants from the wild, however that's another story.... > still growing? Commune vs. conquest. Hmmph! > > Jan, this guy lists the following taxa > _H.nutans_ > _H.minor_ > _H.minor f. laevis_ > _H.ionasii_ > _H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa_ > _H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa f. glabella_ > _H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata_ > _H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata f. glabella_ > _H.tatei var. tatei_ > _H.tatei var. tatei f. macdonaldae_ > _H.tatei var. tatei f. tyleri_ > _H.tatei var. neblinae_ > _H.tatei var. neblinae f. parva_ > > Being something of a lumper in philosophy, I have a certain distaste > for all these names. Are the various forms and varieties even published? > > Barry > ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 11:02:51 GMT+1 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ > >Jan, this guy lists the following taxa > >_H.nutans_ > >_H.minor_ > >_H.minor f. laevis_ > >_H.ionasii_ > >_H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa_ > >_H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa f. glabella_ > >_H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata_ > >_H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata f. glabella_ > >_H.tatei var. tatei_ > >_H.tatei var. tatei f. macdonaldae_ > >_H.tatei var. tatei f. tyleri_ I doubt whether it's possible to put H. neblinae into the taxon H. tatei. In fact both plants grow very far apart from each other! Could it not be that they just look similar by chance,without a direct relationship??? Perhaps they both stand quite close to a more primitive form of heliamphora from which the other taxa have evolved. ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 11:34:07 GMT+1 Subject: CPN Can anybody help me regarding the following problem: Since mid of 1992 I do not receive CPN anymore though I paid both for 1992 and 1993 (For 1993 even twice). I tried to contact Mr. Leo Song both by e-mail and normal mail regarding this problem, however I got no reply. Does anybody of you know him and could ask him regarding this problem? I know from several other german subscribers of CPN who have the same problems. If it's not possible to get CPN regullary outside the US anymore, is there a possibility to subscribe it via a member of this list??? Any help would be welcome All the best Andreas Wistuba ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 13:40:26 +0100 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ Andreas, you wrote: >I doubt whether it's possible to put H. neblinae into the taxon H. >tatei. In fact both plants grow very far apart from each other! Could >it not be that they just look similar by chance,without a direct >relationship??? _H.tatei_var.tatei_ and _H.tatei_var.neblinae_ are not only connected by morphological but also by geographic intermediates as _H.tatei_ is not restricted to Mt.Duida in the strict sense. There are populations of _H.tatei_ on Mt. Huachamacari and Mt. Aracamuni, extending the whole range of this species to such a degree that _H.tatei_var.neblinae_ becomes just a variety endemic to the extreme south (not "very far apart" from the other populations). In a genus as polymorphic and geographically restricted as _Heliamphora_, it is not very probable that two populations which are not closely related to each other should look similar and occupy neighbouring ranges "just by chance". And certainly, the two varieties are (morphologically and geographically) closer to each other than to the rest of the genus. The inclusion of _H.neblinae_ in _H.tatei_ was the result of thorough examination of living specimens (STEYERMARK himself studied and collected both varieties in the field) as well as on the basis of rather copious herbarium material. STEYERMARK gives an extensive account on the reasons why the two cannot be separated specifically in his realignment. >Perhaps they both stand quite close to a more primitive form of >Heliamphora from which the other taxa have evolved. It seems _H.tatei_ is quite complex a species. In fact, it is the only "true" carnivore known so far in that genus (the possession of digestive enzymes has been demonstrated in the paper by MICHELANGELI & AL. which I have mentioned on this list some time ago). I cannot judge whether this is primitive or derived within _Heliamphora_: If it is the plesiomorphous character state, it may have been lost in the eastern species by secondary reduction, thus rendering them derived. On the other hand if digestive enzymes are a "new" trait only acquired by the western _H.tatei_ as an apomorphy, this would be an argument in favour of a derived status of this species. I can see no reason why the two varieties of _H.tatei_ should be of paraphyletic origin derived from "different ends" of a more primitive form (which should be the +/- direct ancestor of the other, i.e. nowadays the eastern species as well). Indeed, morphology and recent distribution indicate monophyletic origin of _H.tatei_ from a common ancestor (representing a "side branch" separated from the rest of the genus) to me. Kind regards Jan ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 08:29:35 MST XSubject: Re: _Heliamphora_ >>While the article is nice, there is this photo that really gets me >>irritated. Why must people go to these places and then have a picture >>taken of them holding a rare plant they tore out of the ground? Yep, >>there's the author (...) >I don't have that issue of CPN yet, so I cannot decide which is the case. Jan: (Good to hear from you) The great hunter depicted in the article is not Johnah Boyan. I know the photograph you are thinking about. The fellow is W.B. >new species). As I was also shown with a ionasii plant in CPN a few >years ago I can explain for vmy part: I think the actual size of an >impressing plant is shown much better than in comparison with a >camera-lenscap, pack of cigarettes.... . And in fact I did not throw away You know, I can see points to this, but I don't completely agree. It is true that one gets an immediate understanding of how big a plant is when compared to a human being. And the understanding is more profound than if the object used for scale were a lens-cap, or pack of cigarettes. I don't know why---maybe seeing a person in the photo draws the spectator into the photograph in a more intimate way than would be achieved with an inanimate scale-object. But I think that a photo of a plant still in the ground is much better and more informative. Using the recent photo as an example, here are some questions not addressed by a single plant in the explorer's arms ---The pitchers are long, but are they naturally arranged prostrate, ascending, or erect? ---Do all the pitchers face the same way (perhaps south), or do they face the center or away from the center of the rosette? ---Is the plant terrestrial or epiphyte? ---Does the plant grow with other characteristic species nearby ---Does it clump or grow individually. These questions can be addressed quite nicely by having a photo of the plants in habitat, and even with a few admiring humans in the shot too. Andreas, we both (if I remember your introduction correctly) enjoy nature photography, and I my personal aesthetics rebel against the safari type shot for the reasons above. The photos in quality nature magazines never have to fall back on showing plants held by humans, and they still convey the appropriate information. >Can anybody help me regarding the following problem: >Since mid of 1992 I do not receive CPN anymore though I paid both for >1992 and 1993 (For 1993 even twice). >I tried to contact Mr. Leo Song both by e-mail and normal mail regarding >this problem, however I got no reply. Does anybody of you know him >and could ask him regarding this problem? >I know from several other german subscribers of CPN who have the >same problems. >If it's not possible to get CPN regullary outside the US anymore, is >there a possibility to subscribe it via a member of this list??? >Any help would be welcome Andreas, I can help you on this one (and perhaps not offend you while I'm at it!). First, Leo is a great guy but rarely has the time to answer email and snail-mail (normal mail). I know him, and the only way to contact him is either by visiting him or talking to him on the phone. But I also know that I can determine the status of your ICPS membership by calling Steve Baker who handles distribution. If you email to me a list of the people who seem to be having trouble getting CPN, I could find out from Steve what their status is (i.e. not on the mailing list, etc). If you send me your mailing address I could check that too. I should have the reply ready for you monday, as long as I can track Steve down. Barry ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 17:14:15 GMT+1 Subject: Re: > These questions can be addressed quite nicely by having a photo of the > plants in habitat, and even with a few admiring humans in the shot > too. Andreas, we both (if I remember your introduction correctly) > enjoy nature photography, and I my personal aesthetics rebel against > the safari type shot for the reasons above. The photos in quality > nature magazines never have to fall back on showing plants held by > humans, and they still convey the appropriate information. The more I think about the theme the more I agree with you! However never underestimate the luck and pride you feel when you're dreaming of a certain plant for years and then you've finally found it. These are the situations creating pictures like those. In fact I never would call a shot like this a nature photo or very aesthetic. And for myself I would not send the photo of myself being published with the Heli in '90 or '89 (I'm not sure about the exact date) to CPN today anymore for aesthetical reasons and the obvious parallel with a photo of an animal with it's hunter shot on a safari. The only thing I wanted to explain is that a photo like the ones we're talking about not neccessarily means that the photographer later treats nature like garbage in just using a living being for a photograph and later throwing it away. By the way: I do not think the plant which has been collected by William Baumgartl is H. ionasii. The type of H. ionasii has very prominent hair (up to 5mm) in the upper part of the pitchers mouth. Further the pitchers are almost trumpet-like in the upper part while the plant collected by William Baumgartl has quite slender, erect pitchers and very short hair. I think it's exactly the Heliamphora pictured in Charles Brewer-Carias' Book: The Lost World of Venezuela and its Vegetation (If anyone is interested I'll look for the ISBN) which was photographed on Tramen Tepui. In fact Tramen and Ilu have the same Base and are only distinct peaks of the same mountain. Jan, what's your opinion about this? > >Can anybody help me regarding the following problem: > >Since mid of 1992 I do not receive CPN anymore though I paid both for > >1992 and 1993 (For 1993 even twice). > > Andreas, I can help you on this one (and perhaps not offend you while > I'm at it!). First, Leo is a great guy but rarely has the time to answer > email and snail-mail (normal mail). I know him, and the only way to contact > him is either by visiting him or talking to him on the phone. But I also > know that I can determine the status of your ICPS membership by calling > Steve Baker who handles distribution. If you email to me a list of the > people who seem to be having trouble getting CPN, I could find out from > Steve what their status is (i.e. not on the mailing list, etc). If you > send me your mailing address I could check that too. I should have the > reply ready for you monday, as long as I can track Steve down. Dear Barry, thank you very much for your offer of helping us with our problems regarding CPN. At the moment we try to get all the names via a note in the german CPS-journal ("Das Taublatt"). The people I know personally are: -Holger Hennern -The German CPS (GFP) library -Eric Schlosser (He meanwhile quit his subscription after having had these problems for some time) -and myself Another friend of mine Thomas Carow had the same prosome time ago but meanwhile he seems to be accepted by CPN again as he gets his issues at the moment. I've heared that there are even more people but I've to ask at the GFP-secretaries for the names. Any help would be great as it's a stupid situation paying for CPN and then having to borrow it from friends for reading. Thankyou Andreas ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 09:22:49 MST XSubject: Re: Hey all: I was chatting with Rick Walker, who does the noble job of maintaining this list so well, and came up with an idea for something useful we should have stored in the archives of our group. I would like to assemble the addresses of all the CP societies for easy access. The information I would like to have is the following.... Organization Name: Organization Address: Subscription rates: Publication name, related benefits: Meetings: Quick profile: Date revised: So for example, the three CP bodies I belong to would be described as... International Carnivorous Plant Society Fullerton Arboretum California State University at Fullerton Fullerton, CA 92634 USA Subscription: $15 U.S.A./$20 Foreign Membership Benefits: Carnivorous Plant Newsletter (quarterly), seedbank. Meetings: None Profile: The ICPS is the largest CP organization in the world. Revised: January 1994 Australian Carnivorous Plant Society P.O. Box 391 St. Agnes, South Australia 5097 Subscription: $15 AU Membership Benefits: Bull. of the A.C.P.S. (quarterly), seedbank. Meetings: Quarterly Profile: A small society with a strong emphasis on Australian flora Revised: January 1994 carnivorous plant email newsgroup listserv@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (email) walker@hpl-cutt.hpl.hp.com (email to Rick Walker) Subscription: Free Membership Benefits: email communication, archived databases Meetings: none Profile: An unmoderated discussion group of approximately 100 people. Revised: January 1994 The revision date will just be useful since some of these associations disappear after a while. So, send me all the addresses etc. you have for various societies. I have the Bay Area CP one, but that's it. Don't assume anyone else is going to do it---they're assuming you'll send me info.... If I just get an address for a society, I'll send to them directly for info, but it would be faster if you had it. Barry ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Fri, 07 Jan 94 16:47:30 +0000 Subject: Re: New CP Newsletter +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Phil As usual I'm lating in reading, and therefore replying, but double flowered Sarras are (reputedly) available for purchase if you've got the bottomless pocket to afford them. Best picture of one (for sale) that I've seen is in the Hinodo-Kadan nursery. Forgive me if I've mis-spelt nursery name - it's the one in Japan (and it's VERY expensive, as is the postange because the nursery is on a tiny island that's almost in Hawaii and everything - including post - is expensive in Japan - so you pay a heavy price for their having to ship it via the mainland first.) Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Fri, 07 Jan 94 16:56:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Robert Sad thing is that Are You Being Served is a bit too near the truth! Regards Paul (still European) ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Fri, 07 Jan 94 16:55:06 +0000 XSubject: Re: Barry Yep, you spotted the deliberate mistake. I did mean P gypicola (I was still suffering from seasonal celebrations!). As to P alfredae needing high pH, I didn't know that!!! Maybe I can improve my success with it and send you some. >Indeed I am serious in going---in that I intend to go sometime within the >next 3 years. But I have no firmer information than that. I think I have >to wait for my and my wife's finances to stabilize a bit. She doesn't know >any spanish and so she's enrolling in a class today. I'm taking it with >her *porque necesito practicar* in a big way! I don't know how variable >spanish is in Mexico, having only explored a few estados, but I'm curious >if the strong indian influence in the Oaxaca regions change things much... Fine, I can wait. Looks like you got lots of interest going - a group would be cheap(ish). As to spanish - I can't speak it either but being in a foreign country without the benefit of their language never caused a problem yet. I point to my mouth for food. hands under head for a bed, ... Need I go on? See yousometime. Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Fri, 07 Jan 94 16:59:43 +0000 Subject: Re: >Good gods, chap! Blasted place sounds as bad as the Isle of Komodo :-) I obviously failed to make myself clear. It's worse!!! (I did mention the horseflies that attack any bare flesh that's exposed whilst swimming, didn't I? Then there's all the wonderful fungi that learnt from Athletes Foot but found other nooks and crannies to inhabit. Heard enough yet? Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Fri, 07 Jan 94 17:18:00 +0000 XSubject: Re: Shing Lam (do I call yu Shing or Lam - excuse my ignorance!) >I'm interested in Broms, especially Tillandsias. I have a hard time, >trying to establish contacts with other bromeliad growers. Do you know >of a bromeliads mailing list? No sorry, don't know of a mailing list but would like to. I've a large collection of specimens, mostly NOT Tillansias, all collected wild before conservation was a serious consideration. They were collected by my Uncle (Peter Temple) who was a world authority and knew "everyone" worth knowing. I've just inherited his Brom library including photographic slides and hand drawings. I'm trying to sort it all out (still movoing the books from his house to mine!). Regards Paul ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 09:58:58 +0800 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ >>From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) wrote: >> >>It seems _H.tatei_ is quite complex a species. In fact, it is the only >>"true" carnivore known so far in that genus (the possession of digestive >>enzymes has been demonstrated in the paper by MICHELANGELI & AL. which I >>have mentioned on this list some time ago). I cannot judge whether this is >>primitive or derived within _Heliamphora_: Jan, what do you know about the presence of wetting agents (surfactants?) in the pitchers of other H. species? The reason I ask is trivial, but based on observations of dropping some ants in my pitchers of H. heterodoxa x minor. The ants went straight to the bottom of the pitcher, as if the water had no surface tension. I believe that Sarracenia also has surfactants in their pitchers, as do Nepenthes... Robert ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 20:54:15 +0100 Subject: Re: Re: Andreas, you wrote: >By the way: >I do not think the plant which has been collected by William >Baumgartl is H. ionasii. >The type of H. ionasii has very prominent hair (up to 5mm) in the >upper part of the pitchers mouth. Further the pitchers are almost >trumpet-like in the upper part while the plant collected by William >Baumgartl has quite slender, erect pitchers and very short hair. I >think it's exactly the Heliamphora pictured in Charles Brewer-Carias' >Book: The Lost World of Venezuela and its Vegetation (If anyone is >interested I'll look for the ISBN) which was photographed on Tramen >Tepui. In fact Tramen and Ilu have the same Base and are only >distinct peaks of the same mountain. > >Jan, what's your opinion about this? I do not know the whole range of variability of _H.ionasii_, nor does it seem too probable that _H.nutans_ (which may have pitchers rather similar to those of the Tramen-tepui plant) should have reached the Ilu-massif. So what I can say at the moment, you might be right with your assumption of a new whatsoever-taxon (I'm not too happy with specific rank in _Heliamphora_: too many "species" had to be lumped together after their variability became evident). Perhaps you should consider varietal rank. OK, if the plant really was closer to _H.nutans_ than to _H.ionasii_ (which I cannot decide for reasons stated above), ssp. would be better than var. because of geographic rather than genetic isolation, but as the same holds true for _H.tatei_neblinae_ and nevertheless STEYERMARK did use var., this rank would be in conformity with current infraspecific classification in _Heliamphora_. Do you have specimens of both, _H.ionasii_ and the Tramen-tepui plant? Kind regards Jan ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 14:49:12 MST XSubject: Re: Re: >never underestimate the luck and pride you feel when you're >dreaming of a certain plant for years and then you've finally found it. Andreas: I know that feeling myself very well! Although I've not yet gone to Venezuela or Malaysia, scouting and finding _Darlingtonia_, _Sarracenia_, and all the other N. American CP is an extremely thrilling adventure. >The only thing I wanted to explain is that a photo like the ones we're >talking about not neccessarily means that the photographer later >treats nature like garbage in just using a living being for a photograph >and later throwing it away. Understood! I'll look into this CPN problem. How about getting me information about your own CP societies. I'm not only interested in getting information on the English language ones! One other thought about CP photography. When people take photos of plants it is useful to have some idea of scale, so the reader knows whether the plant is a few cm or decimeters in diameter. But such photos are often unattractive, so I usually take pictures with a scale in the view, and with scale out of the view. But nearly useless are photos with a bad choice of reference object. Randy Lamb wrote a fantastic article for CPN some time back on _P.villosa_, but as his reference object he used a Canadian coin. I'm still not sure how big that is! The size difference between a U.S. 10 cent and 25 cent piece is significant, for example! Barry ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 16:51:39 MST XSubject: Re: Re: >As to P alfredae needing high pH, I didn't know that!!! Maybe I can I'm not sure on that yet. Don't kill your plants yet on my advice! B ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Fri, 07 Jan 1994 17:06:58 -0800 Subject: Tissue culture questions Dear tissue culture gurus: I recently took a one day tissue culture course and got successful germination of _Pinguicula sp. "Agarra Mosca Violeta"_ in vitro. The little plants are now about 0.5 cm in dia. with several leaves apiece. I used SIGMA #6793 phytamax orchid multiplication media. This was a compromise mix because we were attempting tissue culture and seed germination with the same media. Now that I've gotten some success, I'd like to try some other plants. After gleaning through the archives, this is what I came up with for recommended media (these are mostly due to Jan S.): _Pinguicula_ Carroll's media (ICPN v11 n4 12/82 pp. 93-96) Murashige-Skoog media diluted 1:5, sucrose 20g/L Terrestrial _Utricularia_ Carrol's media Aquatic _Utricularia_ Carroll's media (no agar) Pringsheim & Pringsheim media _Sarracenia_ ? _Nepenthes_ Knudson C media _Drosera_ ? _Cephalotus_ ? _Dionaea_ ? _Byblis_ ? For solid media, use 8-12 g/L agar. Can anyone fill in the blanks for the unspecified genera? I'm planning on buying an assortment of powdered media from SIGMA and want to get the appropriate types. SIGMA carries both Knudsons C and MS in little foil pouches pre-measured for 1L of media. Unfortunately, SIGMA doesn't carry anything even close to Carroll's formula. If I want to use this, I'll have to mix it myself. Is their any interest in making a group buy of chemicals for Carroll's media? I could pre-measure and mix the chemicals into individual packets suitable for making 1L of finished media. I could then redistribute the packets for the cost of the component ingredients. Finally, is their any truth to the persistant rumour that _Nepenthes_ has been successfully cultured from tendrils? If so, how is it done? (Hormones, etc...) Thanks! -- Rick ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Fri, 07 Jan 1994 17:11:51 -0800 Subject: CP photography > Randy Lamb wrote a fantastic article for CPN some time back on > _P.villosa_, but as his reference object he used a Canadian coin. I'm > still not sure how big that is! The size difference between a U.S. > 10 cent and 25 cent piece is significant, for example! Every photo bag should have a 5 cm long white stick with black tick marks every cm. If you want to be fancy, the back side can be black with white ticks. Makes a very tasteful looking and unambiguous reference. -- Rick ################### From: Bob Cohen Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 18:07:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Tissue culture questions > Dear tissue culture gurus: I took a stab at several genera using Carolina Biological Supply's VFT (dionea) multiplication media, which appears to be a weak MS type medium with a growth horomone added (I forget which one). I was particularly interested in Sarracenia, so I tried using explants from several locations - growth point, root tip, juvenile leaves, etc. No luck. The only genera I had any luck with was Pinguicula, which seems to propagate vegetatively at the drop of a hat anyway. I'm going to try using seeds in my next batch. Any tips appreciated. ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 18:22:04 -0800 Subject: Welcome to CP Kirk Martin my name is kevin and i'm from everett wa. localy the easiest book to find is the 2nd one by Pietropaolo called Carnivorous Plants of the World. I like the propigating information in it verry well but most people i know prefer others because Pietropaolo is not verry compleat in its naiming of plants. most people like the book by Gordon Cheers better. the title is the same for both books and they are kind of spendy $$$$$$. most book stores will order eather of them for you gladly. the carnivorous plants of the united states and canada by Donald Schnell is a steal at $10.00 but is limited in scope. most book stores have an index to books in print if you look up carnivorous plants in the subject books you wont be dissapointed. Jerry Quick's OUCH CACTS GREENHOUSE 376 PARKER BRIDGE RD. WAPATO, WA. 98951 Is a repuatible cp dealer on your side of the big hump the phone number is 509-877-4740 or 877-4332 our local cp club is The Pacific North West Carnivorous Plant club C/O Tom Kahl 8219 South 130th. St. Seattle Wa. 98178 or C/O David Wong 8163 Elliott St. Vancouver, British Columbia Canada V5S 2P3 you are wellcome to call me at 1-206-252-2911 dont forget the cp archive at our listserv all the best things in life and more are waiting there for you and more good growing Kevin S. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 22:47:25 MST XSubject: Welcome to CP Kirk Martin Does anyone have the snail-mail address for Paul Kane, CPer somewhere in Australia? B ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 1994 09:29:08 +0100 Subject: Withdrawal Dear tissue culture gurus: >After gleaning through the archives, this is what I came up with for >recommended media (these are mostly due to Jan S.): > > _Pinguicula_ > Carroll's media (ICPN v11 n4 12/82 pp. 93-96) > Murashige-Skoog media diluted 1:5, sucrose 20g/L The first can be recommended for ALL _Pinguicula_ species tested so far (ca. 30 spp. of different subgenera and sections). > Terrestrial _Utricularia_ > Carrol's media I can recommend this media ONLY for the large-leaved species _U.alpina_, _U.longifolia_, and _U.calycifida_. !!! * W A R N I N G * !!! DO NOT USE CARROLL's MEDIA FOR _Utricularia_ sect.Pleiochasia! IT WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY KILL YOUR PLANTS (at least young seedlings) RAPIDLY. It did so for me with several species 8-( I haven't yet any solution to the problems concerning these, some other terrestrial species, and most _Genliseae_. _G.pygmaea_ seems to be very tolerant, _G.violacea_ grows and flowers (!!) in 1/5 MS media (J.Nerz, pers. comm.). > Aquatic _Utricularia_ > Carroll's media (no agar) > Pringsheim & Pringsheim media The latter being the better one. The reference is: Amer.J.Bot.49:898-901 (1962). Addition of sucrose may be helpful (the original formula doesn't contain sucrose). Kind regards and happy growing! Jan ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 1994 11:32:58 +0100 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ Robert, you wrote: >Jan, what do you know about the presence of wetting agents (surfactants?) >in the pitchers of other H. species? The reason I ask is trivial, but based >on observations of dropping some ants in my pitchers of H. heterodoxa x minor. >The ants went straight to the bottom of the pitcher, as if the water had >no surface tension. I believe that Sarracenia also has surfactants in their >pitchers, as do Nepenthes... In the paper by JAFFE, MICHELANGELI, & al.: "Carnivory in Pitcher Plants of the Genus _Heliamphora_ (Sarraceniaceae)", New Phytol. 122:733-44 (1992), it is stated on p.739 that the water in the pitchers of _H._ have a lower water tension than that from nearby ponds or bromeliads. Indeed, their experiment was very similar to yours: they dropped ants into the pitchers and measured the time the ants were able to swim on the water surface. The surfactant wasn't identified, however. No species is referred to, but on p. 734 in discussing the whole genus the same is repeated. So I assume it is a generic trait for _Heliamphora_. Andreas, I wrote in a reply to you: >(...) nor does it seem too probable that _H.nutans_ (which may have pitchers >>rather similar to those of the Tramen-tepui plant) should have reached the >>Ilu-massif. Until yesterday, I laboured under the mistake (inexcusable, again!) that _H.nutans_ and _H.ionasii_ were allopatric species. This is of course almost complete nonsense as I see now, after having read MAGUIRE more thoroughly. Their geographic ranges do overlap completely, only _H.ionasii_ being somewhat restricted to the north. _H.nutans_ DOES DEFINITELY OCCUR on Mt. Ilu-tepui (cf. e.g. a collection made 1952 by MAGUIRE, no. 33379), and these populations are almost continuously connected to others reaching as far to the south as Mt. Roraima. This changes the world for me. Under these circumstances the high probability of introgression (by _H.nutans_) must be considered, and you=B4ll almost certainly run into big trouble and lenghty discussions if you try to establish a third (sympatric and ill differentiated) species for this region. I=B4m quite convinced now that the _H.nutans_ like plants from the Ilu region are indeed _H.nutans_, maybe vars. different from the type, but rather certainly NOT ANOTHER SPECIES. Other, more _H.ionasii_ like plants could represent atypical vars. of this species or even hybrids. Anyway, I must hasten to mention that I'm not sufficiently familiar with these populations to judge their relationship or variability satisfactorily. Kind regards and sorry for the confusion Jan ################### From: 98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU Date: Sun, 09 Jan 94 01:00:51 PST XSubject: Re: _Heliamphora_ This is only my second message but wanted to thank kevin and jeff for both coming to the rescue of a CP newbie. I expect i'll be running out for a few texts so that I can see exactly what a heliamphora really looks like. Also Jeff I'll definitely look you up for a drosera as soon as the weather warms up some. In the meantime I'll accept all advice and listen and learn from your discussions. (couldn't believe the size of my mail account after being away only two days I don't dare go on vacation: very active group!!!) Thanks everyone Kirk Martin ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 13:06:03 +0100 Subject: Re: Kirk, you wrote: >I expect i'll be running out for a few texts so that I can see exactly what a >>heliamphora really looks like. You should read the respective texts by MAGUIRE (MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29 1978; descriptions of the whole genus, _H.ionasii_, and _H.neblinae_), STEYERMARK (ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71 1984; extensive discussion on variability and taxonomic consequences), and by JAFFE, MICHELANGELI & al. (NEW PHYTOL.122 1992; many interesting news concerning distribution and ecology). If you can, you should also look up WISTUBA (DAS TAUBLATT (3) 1993) or BAUMGARTL (CPN (4) 1993, cited in Don's, Barry's and Andreas' messages). There, you can find (colour) photos of the not yet satisfactorily classified and possibly new taxon/taxa from Tramen/Ilu-tepui. Happy reading! Jan ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 13:26:09 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Tissue culture questions > Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 17:07:45 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: Rick Walker > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Tissue culture questions Rick, you asked for informations regarding tissue culture media. I hope the infos I added to your mail is of value for you or somebody else. > Now that I've gotten some success, I'd like to try some other plants. > After gleaning through the archives, this is what I came up with for > recommended media (these are mostly due to Jan S.): > > _Pinguicula_ > Carroll's media (ICPN v11 n4 12/82 pp. 93-96) > Murashige-Skoog media diluted 1:5, sucrose 20g/L > Terrestrial _Utricularia_ > Carrol's media > Aquatic _Utricularia_ > Carroll's media (no agar) > Pringsheim & Pringsheim media > _Sarracenia_ I use 0,66 x Knudsen C* with various concentrations of BAP and IBA for multiplying and rooting. I also used 0,16 x MS but I like Knudsen better. > _Nepenthes_ > Knudson C media I use the same media as for Sarracenias (mostly Knudsen C*) and I add 0,2 mg/l - 2 mg/l BAP for multiplying. I feel that a special rooting medium is not necessary as the plantlets root easyly when transplanted to soil. I also used Andersons medium (Sigma) and it worked very well also. N. ephippiata seems to like it. > _Drosera_ They grow well on 0,66 x Knudsen C*. I'm still experimenting to find an optimal multiplication medium. > _Cephalotus_ Sigmas modified MS (1/2 x macro-, 1 x micronutrients) works great for me (M 0153) with various concentrations of BAP and IBA. > _Dionaea_ see publications. > _Byblis_ Just use the same medium as for Cephalotus. It works for all B. liniflora types and mostly for B. gigantea. However sometimes I have problems with vitrification in case of B. gigantea. > For solid media, use 8-12 g/L agar. *= You may add 37,26mg/l Na2EDTA and 27,8 mg/l FeSO4 x 7H2O. I always add the MS-vitamins to the Knudsen C medium. > Finally, is their any truth to the persistant rumour that _Nepenthes_ has > been successfully cultured from tendrils? If so, how is it done? (Hormones, > etc...) There is a Diploma thesis done on this by Mr Thilo Schmidt-Rogge some years ago. He managed to callus pieces of tendrils but he did not get plants from tis callus. Several people including myself have tried to reproduce his experiments but we did not manage even to get callus. Even more the explants died rapidly within a few days while controls on various other media stayed alive for months. I then tried to find a medium which alllows callus-production from tendrils and ended with media containing Thidiazurone in various concentration as well as a whole set of other hormones but all I managed to produce was callus from tenddrils and leaves, but I failed to getting plants from this callus. I do not know who wrote this ad in CPN some years ago but I wonder whether somebody managed the problems. I'm in doubt a little regarding the diploma thesis mentioned as one of its major conclutions was that Nepenthes are absolutely dependent on amino-acids in the media. I've produced thousands of Nepenthes in vitro non of which ever was fed with amino acids. Maybe best I do not tell them about their needs. Some literature which might be of interest: Pinguicula Adams et al. 1979. HortScience 14(6):701-702. Dionaea Hutchinson 1984. Scienta Horticulturae 22:189-194. Beebe 1980. Bot. Gaz.141(4):396-400. Parliman et al. 1982. J.Amer.Soc.Hort.Sci. 107(2):305-310. Parliman et al. 1982. J.Amer.Soc.Hort.Sci. 107(2):310-316. Drosera Janssens 1986. Med.Fac.Landbouww.Rijksuniv.Gent. 51(1):61-66. Byblis Bunn 1985. Australian Horticulture. 83(5):103 Nepenthes Rathore et al. 1991. J.PlantPhysiol. 139:246-248. (They multiply N. khasiana. You better forget about the results of this paper in use for other Nep-species as N. khasiana seems to be the only species hardy enough to survive the extremely auxine rich media they describe. I tried them on other species and my plants endded as a bunch of roots coming even from the leaves!!!!! However I think this could be a hint that tissue from Nepenthes leaves is indeed able to regenerate non-leaf tissues. (I'm thinking about this tendril project I'm still working on)) There are a few more papers about Drosera and Cephalotus I did not mention above. All the best Andreas Wistuba ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 13:30:44 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Tissue culture questions > Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 18:11:00 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: Bob Cohen > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Tissue culture questions > > > > > > Dear tissue culture gurus: > > > > I took a stab at several genera using Carolina Biological Supply's VFT > (dionea) multiplication media, which appears to be a weak MS type > medium with a growth horomone added (I forget which one). I was > particularly interested in Sarracenia, so I tried using explants from > several locations - growth point, root tip, juvenile leaves, etc. No > luck. The only genera I had any luck with was Pinguicula, which seems > to propagate vegetatively at the drop of a hat anyway. I'm going to > try using seeds in my next batch. Any tips appreciated. > I used meristems with one or two leaf primordia succesfully in case of a few Sarracenia clones. It's a bit tricky working under the stereo-microscope but I'd regard meristemming as absolutely impossible without one. > ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 13:39:45 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Re: > Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 11:56:23 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Re: > Andreas, you wrote: > >The type of H. ionasii has very prominent hair (up to 5mm) in the > >upper part of the pitchers mouth. Further the pitchers are almost > >trumpet-like in the upper part while the plant collected by William > >Baumgartl has quite slender, erect pitchers and very short hair. I > >think it's exactly the Heliamphora pictured in Charles Brewer-Carias' > >Book: The Lost World of Venezuela and its Vegetation > if the plant really was closer to _H.nutans_ than to _H.ionasii_ (which I > cannot decide for reasons stated above), ssp. would be better than var. > because of geographic rather than genetic isolation The plant shows no similarities to me at least in pitcher shape and hair to nor H. ionasii neither H. nutans however I know the adult plants only from photos. > Do you have specimens of both, _H.ionasii_ and the Tramen-tepui plant? > I have mature plants of "our" H. ionasii as well as a small seedling of W. Baumgartl's plant. Andreas > ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 13:53:19 GMT+1 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ > Date: Sat, 8 Jan 1994 02:33:21 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ >> > Andreas, I wrote in a reply to you: > > >(...) nor does it seem too probable that _H.nutans_ (which may have > >pitchers rather similar to those of the Tramen-tepui plant) should > >have reached the Ilu-massif. > > Until yesterday, I laboured under the mistake (inexcusable, again!) > that _H.nutans_ and _H.ionasii_ were allopatric species. This is of > course almost complete nonsense as I see now, after having read > MAGUIRE more thoroughly. Their geographic ranges do overlap > completely, only _H.ionasii_ being somewhat restricted to the north. > _H.nutans_ DOES DEFINITELY OCCUR on Mt. Ilu-tepui (cf. e.g. a > collection made 1952 by MAGUIRE, no. 33379) I'd be not completely sure about this as a plant most likely to be a natural hybrid between H. ionasii and another doubtful sp. (I called this one "spec. 1" for the moment though I know that you hate such pseudo-names, Jan :-)) occurs on the common Base of Ilu and Tramen which looks much like a small H. ionasii with short hair, that means much like H. nutans (I inexcusably call this one H. spec "2" at the moment :-)). Spec. "1" looks different for me as the W. Baumgartl-plant however I'm not 100% sure about this at the moment. I think best would be a study based on RFLP or other methods which stronger estimate the genotype rather than the phenotypic expression to clarify such questions. sincerely Andreas ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 14:19:07 GMT+1 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ > From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) > Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ > Andreas, you wrote: > > >I doubt whether it's possible to put H. neblinae into the taxon H. > >tatei. In fact both plants grow very far apart from each other! > >Could it not be that they just look similar by chance,without a > >direct relationship??? Jan, you wrote: > > _H.tatei_var.tatei_ and _H.tatei_var.neblinae_ are not only connected by > morphological but also by geographic intermediates as _H.tatei_ is not > restricted to Mt.Duida in the strict sense. There are populations of > _H.tatei_ on Mt. Huachamacari and Mt. Aracamuni, extending the whole range > of this species to such a degree that _H.tatei_var.neblinae_ becomes just a > variety endemic to the extreme south (not "very far apart" from the other > populations). In fact Duida, Huacamacari an Maharuaka are only short distances from each other. The same is true for Neblina and Aracumuni, in fact A. is merely an outgrowth of the Neblina massif. However both groups of mountains are about 170km from each other with no mountain or tepui in between to "jump" on. As the seeds of Heliamphora are not equipped to being distributed by the wind nor by animals (no "fruit" to be eaten by animals, no hair to cling into hair or birds feathers) but for swimming which should explain populations of H. nutans and H. heterodoxa down from the tepuis in the Grand Sabana I can hardly imagine how a Heliamphora seed could span such a distance. All the other species have very small ranges (with the exception of H. heterodoxa var. exappendiculata, which after having seen photographs of this plant seems to be something very special to me... . I almost do not dare to write, however I do not see much similarities to the type-heterodoxa:-)). > It seems _H.tatei_ is quite complex a species. In fact, it is the only > "true" carnivore known so far in that genus (the possession of digestive > enzymes has been demonstrated in the paper by MICHELANGELI & AL. which I > have mentioned on this list some time ago)> Jan, could you send me a photocopy of this paper or give me a reference if you do not have the paper itself? All the best Andreas ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 14:27:22 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Welcome, Andreas > From: MALOUF@ESTD.NRL.NAVY.MIL > Subject: Welcome, Andreas Perry wrote: > Your list of Nepenthes seems rather long and, unfortunately, the plants > I have are already included on it (I think). Did your list include > N. Khasiana? I don't remember, but here in the States it's not > hard to find. I have N. khasiana. > Two other enthusiasts I know, who do not have INTERNET > access, are Rob Sacilotto and Bill McLaughlin. Rob has a nursery > where he raises Sarraceniae, Nepenthes, Droserae, and other CP's > along with many other interesting plants. Bill McLaughlin takes > care of the CP collection at the U.S. Botanic Garden here in > Washington, DC which has a fairly good Nepenthes collection. > I act as their ears and voices over the INTERNET. What kinds of Nepenthes do they grow? > You won't be disappointed, I'm sure! Again, welcome. It's nice > to have you here. In fact you were right! My real work-time in the lab here is decreasing rapidly!!! Thanks to everyone in this group for letting me participate and to the people who welcomed me. All the best Andreas ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 14:38:36 GMT+1 Subject: question Is it possible to send graphics or other documents via e-mail. I have the possibility to attach documents with the e-mails I send however I do not know whether it works or whether it's necessary to have winpmail (The program I use) to receive such documents. ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 19:49:47 +0100 Subject: _Heliamphora_, again! Andreas, you wrote re: the MAGUIRE specimen: >I'd be not completely sure about this... I'm never *completely* sure about anything. Remember I'm not sufficiently dead! 8-) >...as a plant most likely to be a natural hybrid between H. ionasii and >another doubtful sp. occurs on the common Base of Ilu and Tramen which >looks much like a small H. ionasii with short hair, that means much >like H. nutans (I inexcusably call this one H. spec "2" at the moment >:-)). The MAGUIRE collection is not the only record of _H.nutans_ from the Ilu range. Moreover, there are several specimens collected between Mt. Roraima and Mt. Ilu-tepui. Do you assume all of them to be either hybrids or your "spec. 2"? *ALL* other authors call it _H.nutans_. Why do you think it is not this species (maybe a var.)? >I think best would be a study based on RFLP or other methods which >stronger estimate the genotype rather than the phenotypic expression >to claryfy such questions. RFLP is a good method to examine the hybrid nature of an individual, but you mustn't underestimate the phenotype as it is responsible for an important component of evolution (viz. selection). In such variable taxa, it seems desirable to see as many individuals (from different populations) as ever possible and study them (if you want so, also genetically). But the results make very little sense (if any) if you pick out just a few individuals and then examine every single molecule of them: you will never grasp the range of variability. You see, it's rather a problem of material than of method. re:_H.tatei/neblinae_: >However both groups of mountains are about 170km from each other >with no mountain or tepui in between to "jump" on. >As the seeds of Heliamphora are not equipped to being distributed by >the wind nor by animals (no "fruit" to be eaten by animals, no hair to >cling into hair or birds feathers) but for swimming... Swimming seeds may be attached to (wet) hair and feathers, BTW. >...which should >explain populations of H. nutans and H. heterodoxa down from the >tepuis in the Grand Sabana I can hardly imagine how a Heliamphora >seed could span such a distance. I agree, this is perfectly true. Nowadays! The tepuis are built of sandstone massifs (prone to rapid erosion), the gaps between them being in fact river valleys of (geologically!) rather modern times. It seems, evolution in _Heliamphora_ is heavily dependent on spatial isolation due to interfertility. If populations have not been isolated from each other in the past (and there are reasons to assume so), no specific or varietal limits could have evolved until "recently". Thus, all the different spp., vars., and ff. are comparatively young, whereas the genus must be rather old, with some of its relatives as far away as (and restricted to) California and Oregon. I do not doubt there are differences between the Duida and Neblina populations, I just don't see a reason why these couldn't be described by varietal distinction. >All the other species have very small ranges (with the exception of H. >heterodoxa var. exappendiculata,... _H.nutans_ (Roraima-Ilu) and _H.minor_ (Auyan-Chimanta) do have rather impressing ranges, too. >... which after having seen >photographs of this plant seems to be something very special to me... >. I almost do not dare to write, however I do not see much similarities >to the type-heterodoxa:-)). The only thing I can say is MAGUIRE *and* STEYERMARK *did* see them (and, as far as I can judge, I can see them, too). It seems you want to shift ranks in the whole genus, with vars. becoming spp. Should then the spp. become sections, subgenera, or even distinct genera? A funny parallel can be seen in the work by STUDNICKA & al.: Heliamphora -> Heliamphoraceae. Just explain to me, what's improved? The result is an increase in the number of names, not of knowledge. And then, there will come the "grand unificator" who lumps all _Heliamphora_ species into a single one. He'll be as correct as you are; it just depends on species definition. Since the times of Linnaeus, the definition and circumscription of species and other ranks has been discussed excessively, but neither of the phenomena which may be observed in nature is as static as any of these definitions. So IMHO, as long as the ranks do represent comparable taxonomic units within their superordinate taxon, they shouldn't be changed. i.e. a var. in _Heliamphora_ need not (and cannot!) be comparable to a var. in _Drosera_. One task of nomenclature is description. The other (as important as the first) is *stability*. Sorry for the long reply! Jan ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 94 13:00:29 MST XSubject: _Heliamphora_, again! Forget about my previous inquiry re: Paul Kane's address B ################### From: wjones@world.std.com (william r jones) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 20:39:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: SIGNOFF CP William Jones ################### From: "Rupert Wilson (Herbarium, RNG)" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 08:15:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: question On Sun, 9 Jan 1994, Andreas Wistuba wrote: > Is it possible to send graphics or other documents via e-mail. I have > the possibility to attach documents with the e-mails I send however I > do not know whether it works or whether it's necessary to have > winpmail (The program I use) to receive such documents. Sure its possible, the best bet is to use the Unix UUENCODE/UUDECODE programs. Simply run UUENCODE to convert your GIF image or other document to a suitable format. Attach this new file to your e-mail and send it. All the recipient has to do is extract the attached file run UUDECODE and the GIF file or other file is back as it was before you sent it. UUENCODE/UUDECODE is so beautiful since it can scan any e-mail quite happily and will only do its stuff when it finds a certain key line marking the start of the UUencoded part. Hot Stuff! Regards, Rupes. _____________________________________________________________________________ | ____ ____ ____ ____ | | /\__/\ /\ /\ /\__/\ /\___\ /\___\ Rupert G. Wilson | | /_/_/ / / / / / /_/_/ / /_/_ /_/_ sbswilsn@reading.ac.uk (Internet) | | /\ __\/ / / / / /\___\/ /\___\ \__/\ Herbarium, School of Plant Sciences | | / /\\ /_/_/ / / / /_/__ ____/ / University of Reading, U.K. :-o | | \/ \\ \___\/ \/ \____\ \___\/ OH DEAR! | |_____________________________________________________________________________| ################### From: Pekka Ala-Siuru Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 10:24:23 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: question On Sun, 9 Jan 1994, Andreas Wistuba wrote: > Is it possible to send graphics or other documents via e-mail. I have > the possibility to attach documents with the e-mails I send however I > do not know whether it works or whether it's necessary to have > winpmail (The program I use) to receive such documents. > Surely it is possible. In Unix system you must first compress the picture file and then encode it. The procedure is like this: compress picture.gif (or whatever the format is .jpg .bmp etc.) the result is a file picture.gif.Z then: uuencode picture.gif.Z < picture.gif.Z > whatever After that you can attach this file whatever to your mail and send it. When receiving mails which include binary data, the procedure is : uudecode whatever uncompress picture.gif.Z ..Pekka ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 10:44:55 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: question > > > > On Sun, 9 Jan 1994, Andreas Wistuba wrote: > > > Is it possible to send graphics or other documents via e-mail. I have > > the possibility to attach documents with the e-mails I send however I > > do not know whether it works or whether it's necessary to have > > winpmail (The program I use) to receive such documents. > > > Surely it is possible. In Unix system you must first compress the picture > file and then encode it. > The procedure is like this: > > compress picture.gif (or whatever the format is .jpg .bmp etc.) > > the result is a file picture.gif.Z > > then: > uuencode picture.gif.Z < picture.gif.Z > whatever > > After that you can attach this file whatever to your mail and send it. > > When receiving mails which include binary data, the procedure is : > > uudecode whatever > uncompress picture.gif.Z > > ..Pekka > > If have got the possibility to attach 'mime-attachments' or whatsoever it is called correctly this process is done automatically. (both for sending and receiving) >From your description it sounds like you have got such mailer. Just try it, select 'attach document' and send it (for example to the list or to me). Hope this helps, Michael r -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland Electronics Lab. jmh@tko.vtt.fi | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512230 ################### From: kirk <98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 01:45:29 PST XSubject: Re: question There is the possibility in a few months I may lose net access just wondering if you have a snail-mail listing of active members here. If not please consider it. I'll manage to get back in the net eventually but would not really care for a total blackout as i do enjoy these discussions. Thanks Kirk ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 14:59:57 GMT+1 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_, again! > From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) > Subject: _Heliamphora_, again! Jan, thankyou for your long reply. You wrote: > The MAGUIRE collection is not the only record of _H.nutans_ from the > Ilu range. Moreover, there are several specimens collected between > Mt. Roraima and Mt. Ilu-tepui. Do you assume all of them to be > either hybrids or your "spec. 2"? *ALL* other authors call it > _H.nutans_. I never said that all H. nutans-plants except the ones from Roraima are something else. I know that H. nutans occurs on Kukenam (approx. 5km from Roraima) as Joachim, Peter and myself found it there. Even more I think that the plant (spec. 1) we found on Tramen could be called still be called a variety of H. nutans depending on the point of view as the flowers show no differences to me. However the pitchers are so different in shape from the typical H.nutans that I wonder why material of this type was never mentioned if it was collected. The plant we think is a hybrid ("spec. 2") between typical H. ionasii and spec. 1 looks much more like typical nutans. Of cause I can not be sure that typical nutans does not occur on Tramen/Ilu only from the fact that we did not find it. However the distance between Ilu and Kukenam is only about 40km, only 1/4 of the distance H. tatei would have had to cross. > re:_H.tatei/neblinae_: > I agree, this is perfectly true. Nowadays! The tepuis are built of > sandstone massifs (prone to rapid erosion), the gaps between them > being in fact river valleys of (geologically!) rather modern times. > It seems, evolution in _Heliamphora_ is heavily dependent on spatial > isolation due to interfertility. If populations have not been > isolated from each other in the past (and there are reasons to assume > so), no specific or varietal limits could have evolved until > "recently". Thus, all the different spp., vars., and ff. are > comparatively young, whereas the genus must be rather old, with some > of its relatives as far away as (and restricted to) California and > Oregon. I do not doubt there are differences between the Duida and > Neblina populations, I just don't see a reason why these couldn't be > described by varietal distinction. > All the other species have very small ranges (with the exception of H. > heterodoxa var. exappendiculata,... _H.nutans_ (Roraima-Ilu) and > _H.minor_ (Auyan-Chimanta) do have rather impressing ranges, too. I know the H. minor from Chimanta as I grow one in my greenhouse and I find it impressive how much it changed from the Auyan-type (Do not get me wrong; I would'nt call it a new spec. :-). However also in this case I wonder why never somebody seems to having had a close look on this "variety".). > >... which after having seen photographs of this plant seems to be > >something very special to me... . I almost do not dare to write, > >however I do not see much similarities to the type-heterodoxa:-)). > > The only thing I can say is MAGUIRE *and* STEYERMARK *did* see them > (and, as far as I can judge, I can see them, too). > > It seems you want to shift ranks in the whole genus, with vars. becoming > spp... Just explain to me, what's improved? I'm aware that the division of a genus into species and subspecies, varieties... is in the responsibility of the author working on the special group. I only fear that a knowledge is lost by slowly reducing the status of a species to a variety which is then easily reduced to just nothing by "the grand unificator". Andreas ################### From: Michael Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 08:55:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: question On Mon, 10 Jan 1994 00:22:25 -0800 Rupert Wilson (Herbarium, RNG) said: > >Sure its possible, the best bet is to use the Unix UUENCODE/UUDECODE >programs. Simply run UUENCODE to convert your GIF image or other document >to a suitable format. Attach this new file to your e-mail and send it. >All the recipient has to do is extract the attached file run UUDECODE and >the GIF file or other file is back as it was before you sent it. >UUENCODE/UUDECODE is so beautiful since it can scan any e-mail quite >happily and will only do its stuff when it finds a certain key line >marking the start of the UUencoded part. > Thanks for the info! But in my case, my PC is running off DOS, not UNIX. I suppose the mainframe I log into to get mail may be using UNIX. If so, I should UUDECODE in that environment before downloading to my PC? Or is a UUENCODed file self-extracting with the UUDECODE command? Michael ################### From: "ANDREW BROOME: NZDRI" Date: 11 Jan 1994 10:09:22 +1200 Subject: Re: question Michael, > But in my case, my PC is running off DOS, not UNIX. > I suppose the mainframe I log into to get mail may be using UNIX. If > so, I should UUDECODE in that environment before downloading to my PC? Well, I use a DOS PC as a terminal to a VMS machine. There is a DOS program which will look after UUencode/decode fro you. Do you have access to FTP through your account? What about modem access to a local BBS, many BBSs have the UU suite of programs available... > Or is a UUENCODed file self-extracting with the UUDECODE command? Not typically although there are some alternative ways of encoding/decoding that I've never used... Just my thoughts. Andrew. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 13:53:54 +0800 Subject: Re; ping stuff >>Small leaves("winter") are easier, there are more of them but they >>generally produce fewer plantlets each, often only 1 each. >> >>Exceptions to above are: >> P. alfredae - grows a new plantlet at end of each sinuous summer leaf. >> Winter leaves are so small and scale like that they >> are very difficult to use (don't know anyone >> strike rate. Sadly I lost my few plantlets of this. The were from in vitro and didn't make the transition to my high humidity ping chamber under lights. Other plants from in vitro did make it. I don't know if the loss was due to my error, or if it was because the thinner leaves of P. heterophylla (formerly alfredae) are more delicate and subject to dehydration or other mishap :-(. >> P. primuliflora - why bother? It makes lots of plantlets on >> its summer leaf ends without any help at all! Actually I get more of the babies during the winter, when things are good & damp. In other news, this weekend I picked up a small _P._moranensis_"A"_ from Peter D'Amato. I was attracted to it because it has green leaves turning to reddish around the edges. It wasn't until I got this home that I realized it looks remarkably like my _P._agnata_ :-(. I hope it's not the same species, but I figure it will be at least a year before I'll have even a prayer of telling. Personally I fear that the majority of Mexican pings are either moranensis or agnata :-). Robert ################### From: "Rupert Wilson (Herbarium, RNG)" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 08:42:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: question On Mon, 10 Jan 1994, Michael wrote: > Thanks for the info! But in my case, my PC is running off DOS, not UNIX. > I suppose the mainframe I log into to get mail may be using UNIX. If > so, I should UUDECODE in that environment before downloading to my PC? > Or is a UUENCODed file self-extracting with the UUDECODE command? > > Michael Again OK, there are ports of the Unix UUDECODE/UUENCODE program for DOS. Check out the following FTP site (or mirror); huh.harvard.edu login: FTP or ANONYMOUS password: your e-mail address CD (move to directory) pub/software/miscellaneous GET (the two files) uudecode.exe and uuencode.exe don't forget to SET TYPE BINARY before transferring download these to your PC and bingo! [You Can GOPHER to huh.harvard.edu if you fancy that too! and its much easier] If you don't want to UUENCODE/UUDECODE on your DOS PC then your mainframe should be able to do this before/after you get the files. No the UUENCODEd file is not self extracting. Hope this helps, Rupert ANYBODY OUT THERE GOT ANY JUICY CP Gifs? ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 10:27:24 GMT+1 Subject: cp group-buy If any of the participants of the group-order wanting to buy cp from me in spring and September did not get my message (!!! urgent !!!) please contact me. I did not get all the return receipts and so I'm in doubt. ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:23:56 +0100 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_, again! Andreas, re:_H.spec._ from Ilu/Tramen >Even more I think that the plant (spec. 1) we found on Tramen could >still be called a variety of H. nutans depending on the point >of view as the flowers show no differences to me. However the >pitchers are so different in shape from the typical H.nutans... The reasons why "pitcher shape" can't be considered a reliable character for delimitation of taxa in _Heliamphora_ is discussed in some detail by STEYERMARK. >...that I wonder why material of this type was never mentioned if it was >collected. "Never mentioned"? Several collections from Ilu were studied by specialists, determined as _H.nutans_, and mentioned, indeed. Following is a list of some specimens (certainly not a complete one, including only material cited in the literature) and the respective references (M=MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29, 1978; S=STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71, 1984): Maguire 33379 (NY,VEN,US) M:51, S:305 Maguire 33248 (NY,VEN,US) M:51 Delascio & Brewer 4967 (VEN) S:305,307,308 >The plant we think is a hybrid ("spec. 2") between typical H. >ionasii and spec. 1 looks much more like typical nutans. >Of cause I can not be sure that typical nutans does not occur on >Tramen/Ilu only from the fact that we did not find it. How is "typical _H.nutans_" defined and delimited against other species in your system of the genus, and how does your "spec. 1" (or whatever you call the non-hybrid plants which should not resemble _H.nutans_) differ from it? re:_H.minor_ from Chimanta >I know the H. minor from Chimanta as I grow one in my greenhouse >and I find it impressive how much it changed from the Auyan-type (Do >not get me wrong; I would'nt call it a new spec. :-). Do you think it does deserve varietal (or any other) rank, compared to current use of ranks in _Heliamphora_? >However also in this case I wonder why never somebody seems to having had a >>close look on this "variety". "Never somebody"? Specimens and references of _H.minor_ from Chimanta: Wurdack 34172 (NY,US) M:53 Wurdack 34237 (NY,VEN,US) M:53 Steyermark, Huber & Carreno 128416 (VEN: paratype of _H.minor_f.laevis_) S:311 Steyermark, Huber & Carreno 128666 (VEN) S:305,307 Steyermerk, Huber & Carreno 128269 (VEN) S:307 I think they would have recognized the difference between these and _H.minor_ from Auyan if there was a significant one. re:_H.tatei/neblinae_ >I only fear that a knowledge is lost by slowly reducing the status of a >species to a variety which is then easily reduced to just nothing by >"the grand unificator". I don't fear so. STEYERMARK certainly did not "slowly" reduce any rank without good reasons. Indeed, his discussion has very much impressed me, as I think this is exactly how botanic work should look like. This is the reason why I rely on his judgement nearly completely (he has evidently seen more specimens in the field as well as in herbaria than I have myself). Even as a var. the distinct taxon from Neblina is certainly not forgotten, and you can bet your socks as long as botanists are free to ruminate, they'll do their best to stop lumpers from reducing it to just nothing (as well as splitters from doing the opposite...). Kind regards Jan ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:26:37 +0100 Subject: Re: Re; ping stuff Robert, you wrote: >In other news, this weekend I picked up a small _P._moranensis_"A"_ >from Peter D'Amato. I was attracted to it because it has green >leaves turning to reddish around the edges. It wasn't until I got >this home that I realized it looks remarkably like my _P._agnata_ :-(. _P.agnata_ has very short spurs (a few mm) to the corolla and a yellow palate, the corolla lobes being obtuse and not broadening towards the apex. The "summer" leaves are generally not upturning at the margin, and they look like the "winter" leaves. _P.moranensis_ has very long spurs (always longer than 1 cm), no yellow in the corolla, the lobes cuneiform and +/- truncate at the apex. The "summer" leaves are upturning at the margin and they are much larger than the "winter" leaves. At least these two species can't be confused with each other. >Personally I fear that the majority of Mexican pings are either moranensis or >>agnata :-). Remember _P.heterophylla_ is from Mexico, too. Most "new" species in cultivation do belong to _P.moranensis_ or _P.agnata_, however 8-( Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 13:21:27 GMT+1 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_, again! Jan, I wrote: > > >...that I wonder why material of this type was never mentioned if it was > >collected. > ...and you answered: > "Never mentioned"? Several collections... I know that material from Ilu was mentioned. However as far as I know never any distinct characters of those collections were mentioned. > > >The plant we think is a hybrid ("spec. 2") between typical H. > >ionasii and spec. 1 looks much more like typical nutans. > >Of cause I can not be sure that typical nutans does not occur on > >Tramen/Ilu only from the fact that we did not find it. > We found LARGE UNIFORM populations of the plant you'd call H. nutans from Ilu/Tramen (sp.1) as well as LARGE UNIFORM populations of the typical H. ionasi. At a place populations of both types touched each other we found VERY FEW INDIVIDUALS showing INTERMEDIATE CHARACTERS OF VARIOUS DEGREE. Of cause nothing is sure except death, however I have little doubts that the intermediate plants are hybrids of at least F2-degree. These plants look more like H. nutans from Roraima or Kukenam than the spec. 1 plants do, regarding pitcher shape. > > re:_H.minor_ from Chimanta > >I know the H. minor from Chimanta as I grow one in my greenhouse > >and I find it impressive how much it changed from the Auyan-type (Do > >not get me wrong; I would'nt call it a new spec. :-). > > Do you think it does deserve varietal (or any other) rank, compared to > current use of ranks in _Heliamphora_? > > >However also in this case I wonder why never somebody seems to having had a > >close look on this "variety". > > "Never somebody"? Specimens... I never had any doubts about H. minor records from Chimanta. However I wonder why the following Characters never were mentioned, best to my knowledge: Hair inside the pitchers are very stiff and long (up to 3mm, similar to H. ionasii) instead of typical H. minor where Hair are barely visible or -sometimes- absent at all. Further the lid seems to have a shape distinct from typical H. minor (more helmet-shaped), however I do not dare to state this from the few pitchers I have at present. Unfortunately my plant has not flowered yet. > I think they would have recognized the difference between these and > _H.minor_ from Auyan if there was a significant one. Not significant??? The next days I'll take exact measurements of pitchers and send them to you via e-mail. regards Andreas ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 08:49:58 MST XSubject: Re: _Heliamphora_, again! >_P.agnata_ has very short spurs (a few mm) to the corolla and a yellow >palate, the corolla lobes being obtuse and not broadening towards the apex. >The "summer" leaves are generally not upturning at the margin, and they >look like the "winter" leaves. Jan: Have you received the pieces of the flower from my _P.agnata_ I sent in the mail? Barry ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 09:06:30 MST XSubject: Re: _Heliamphora_, again! Question to Australians (or anyone): I seem to recall that we have (or had) someone from one of the Australian Botanical Gardens or some such thing on this list. I'm trying to clear up a question on the plant _Ibicella lutea_, which is in the _Martyniaceae_. (Sometimes this plant is classed as _Martynia_ or _Proboscidea_). This plant originally came from S. America and is now a weed in some places---it is considered a "noxious weed" in Australia. So I'm hoping that some of our Australian colleagues have access to the plant, either live or in herbaria. If so, could you answer this question? In an old paper (in the '50's), van Eseltine states in his key to the _Martyniaceae_ that _Ibicella_ is characterised by a calyx which has five completely separate lobes. _Martynia_ shares this characteristic. In contrast, _Proboscidea_ has a calyx with the five lobes connate to produce a palmate-lobed calyx incised to the base, below the flower. Could anyone verify this? There's a rather bad drawing of _I.lutea_ in Juniper, Robins, and Joel's book showing a connate calyx. But this book also mistakenly claims the plant originates in Mexico/Southern California, where it only occurs as a naturalized weed. I'm trying to find seed of this plant, which is a candidate for being considered a CP. Barry ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 20:59:06 +0100 Subject: _Heliamphora_, never_ending? Andreas: >These (...i.e. "spec.2"...) plants look more like H. nutans >from Roraima or Kukenam than the spec. 1 plants do, regarding pitcher >shape. Again, why wouldn't you call "spec.1" _H.nutans_ (maybe a new var.)? Is it just because some of the putative hybrids of this with _H.ionasii_ (="spec.2") do resemble "typical _H.nutans_" even more closely? How then, if at least some of these "hybrids" were indeed nothing else but _H.nutans_ (_var.nutans_, possibly with fewer individuals in the Ilu-range)? >I never had any doubts about H. minor records from Chimanta. However >I wonder why the following Characters never were mentioned, best to >my knowledge: > >Hair inside the pitchers are very stiff and long (up to 3mm, similar to H. >ionasii) instead of typical H. minor where Hair are barely visible or >-sometimes- absent at all. Let me contribute a bit to your knowledge: STEYERMARK writes (p.312, in his key): "8. Pubescent upper interior face of the pitcher (excluding the basal ring of hairs) with some or all of the hairs elongated to 2-5 mm and scattered or relatively distant from each other, or deciduous over a glabrous surface" The two species described by this phrase are _H.ionasii_ (!) and _H.minor_ (_f.minor_). Other references to the hairiness of _H.minor_ are on pp. 310, 311 (_H.m.f.laevis_), & c. This is just the opposite of "never mentioned", isn't it? >Further the lid seems to have a shape distinct from typical H. minor (more >>helmet-shaped), however I do not dare to state this from the few pitchers I >>have at present. Also, "lid shape" seems to be of very limited use as a distinguishing character as its dimensions vary considerably (cf. STEYERMARK's table). >> I think they would have recognized the difference between these and >> _H.minor_ from Auyan if there was a significant one. > >Not significant??? > >The next days I'll take exact measurements of pitchers and send them >to you via e-mail. Biologically (not mathematically) significant, i.e. beyond variability within populations, not between individuals. Let me refer to EDGAR T. WHERRY (discussing the variability of _S.purpurea_): "Until some one has the opportunity to work out the significance of these variations, it seems undesirable to burden the literature with such a series of names" (BARTONIA 15:3, 1933). Kind regards Jan ################### From: ATLASD@delphi.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nepenthes Oddity (?) One of my nepenthes is producing a leaf with 2 midribs and 2 "proto-pitchers". The midribs are about 5mm apart. Is this a common occurrence? BTW, happy new year to everyone!. Doug ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:31:57 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Barry you wrote: > I'm trying to find seed of this plant, which is a candidate for being > considered a CP. I was offered seeds of this plant a few times by various people, however I was never interested as I m specializing in Nepenthes and Heliamphora. I ll have a look for seeds if you re interested. Let me just know your current snail-mail adress and if I m offered seeds again I'll send you some. All the best Andreas ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 11:16:14 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Nepenthes Oddity (?) > One of my nepenthes is producing a leaf with 2 midribs and 2 > "proto-pitchers". The midribs are about 5mm apart. Is this a common > occurrence? Is this only a single leaf or does the plant behave like this with all leaves? If it's only a single leaf it's most likely just a growth disturbance. However if it produces such leaves regulary or always it's likely to be a mutation. I've heared that a double-pitchered N. rafflesiana was once found in Kinabalu Park with all the leaves double pitchered, however I do not know if this isn't just a fairy tale. Andreas ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 09:55:13 MST XSubject: Re: Nepenthes Oddity (?) >I was offered seeds of this plant a few times by various people, >however I was never interested as I m specializing in Nepenthes and >Heliamphora. I ll have a look for seeds if you re interested. Let me just >know your current snail-mail adress and if I m offered seeds again I ll >send you some. Andreas, my snail-mail address is listed below. If you ever hear about seed from this plant (_Ibicella lutea_) please inform me. So far I've been on a trail of misidentified plants, with everyone growing related plants mistaking them for _Ibicella_ when in fact the plants are _Proboscidea_. I'm running out of ideas... Barry Meyers-Rice Steward Observatory University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 USA P.S. Incidentally, a bit of checking in the literature verifies that in California and Australia, where _I.lutea_ occurs as an introduced weed, the calyx lobes are completely separate from each other. Anything with fused sepals is not _I.lutea_. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 10:00:08 MST XSubject: Re: Nepenthes Oddity (?) Andreas As we speak, the plant is being propagated in vitro at Atlanta Botanical Gardens in Georgia, I believe. It is not yet available for distribution. I do not believe anyone in the U.S. is specializing in _Sarracenia_ using in vitro, although the people who do in vitro work in the U.S. are certainly working on the genus to propagate them, especially the rare taxa. I could get you their addresses if you wish. The two most active that I know of are Ron Gagliardo and Bob Hanrahan. Barry ################### From: Oliver T Massey(CFS) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 17:06:32 EST Subject: CP organizations info Barry: Thought I'd send you and anyone interested the info you requested for our CP club here in the bay area -(no that's not SF Bay) :). ____________________________ Tampa Bay Carnivorous Plant Club 712 E. Caracas St. Tampa, Fl. 33603-2329 Dues/Subscription $12.00 U.S. Membership benefits: Trappings (bimonthly newsletter), trading post, field trips, plant sales Meetings: monthly, USF botanical gardens, 2nd Wednesday of the month Profile: local enthusiasts looking to expand Revised: January, 1994 Complementary copy of the newsletter available upon request. -- For those already requesting a copy - it should be in the mail shortly. Good growing, Tom Massey@hal.fmhi.usf.edu ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 09:22:18 +0800 Subject: Re: Nepenthes Oddity (?) >>One of my nepenthes is producing a leaf with 2 midribs and 2 >>"proto-pitchers". The midribs are about 5mm apart. Is this a >>common occurrence? You don't perhaps live near Love Canal do you? R. ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 09:33:28 +0100 Subject: fragments received Barry, >>_P.agnata_ has (...) >Jan: Have you received the pieces of the flower from my _P.agnata_ >I sent in the mail? Now (yesterday) I have received them. It looks very much like _P.agnata_. Is the spur always 4 mm long? There is no real (bulging) palate in the corolla tube, is it? Jan ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 09:34:17 MST XSubject: fragments received Tom: Thanks for the info re Tampa Bay CP club. I love the name of the bimonthly newsletter ``Trappings''! About how many pages do you expect it will total in a year? 6? 30? 100? ********************* Another call going out for information on CP societies... If you have complete information on a society that would be great. If you have an address to a group to which you don't belong, I could write the society. I just need addresses! Information requested... Society name: Publication: Name, approximate number of pages/annually, language of pub. Other benefits: (seedbanks, plant sales, bookstore, etc) Meeting frequency: A sentence or two profile of club: Subscription rate: Address: I already have info on ICPS,ACPS,BACPS,PNCPC,VCPS,CPS of NSW, AFDPC (french) IPS (Japan),NZCPS,TBCPS, although several of these are quite incomplete. Surely there are Brit groups, German groups,or ANY European groups! So far for the European Community all I've got so far is the address to the Ping study group and a French group that may be defunct.... Barry ################### From: Oliver T Massey(CFS) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 15:06:40 EST Subject: Re: newsletter Barry: >>I love the name of the bimonthly newsletter ``Trappings''! About how many pages do you expect it will total in a year? 6? 30? 100?>>> Thanks, I'll pass your compliment along. At present, it looks like perhaps 18-20 pages a year. I'll send you a copy. The "trading post" will also be open for others who want to list plants. On another note, -- last night the county fair asked us to participate in this year's horticultural exhibits (set for Feb 4th-17th!). We are now scrounging around trying to identify any of our plants that don't look too grungy. (That is the proper botanical term for dormant, right?) So far we're thinking about a 300 gallon terrarium with Nepenthes and a demonstration bog garden. The terrarium has locking sliding glass doors, and some of our members have spare lights. Security may be a concern, as might temperature. Anyone with experience or ideas about things we might put together in two weeks, we'd appreciate your suggestions. Good growing, Tom Massey@hal.fmhi.usf.edu ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 13:24:30 MST XSubject: Re: newsletter >a 300 gallon terrarium with Nepenthes and a demonstration bog garden. >The terrarium has locking sliding glass doors, and some of our members >have spare lights. Security may be a concern, as might temperature. >Anyone with experience or ideas about things we might put together in two >weeks, we'd appreciate your suggestions. Tom: This sounds like a fun project, as long as you get several people involved. For one person it might just be a lot of work! I think you will make your job a whole lot easier if you remember that you just need an environment that your plants can survive in for two weeks, for the duration of the fair, instead of a really nice arrangement in which they'd grow well over a long time. Unfortunately, if security or nighttime temperatures may be a problem, the easiest thing to do might be to put all the plants in a big flat and take them home every night. Whenever I make a new terrarium arrangement, I always let it run for a few days without plants, during which I determine the temperature extremes during the night and day. Barry ################### From: "ANDREW BROOME: NZDRI" Date: 14 Jan 1994 10:05:13 +1200 Subject: Info on CP Clubs... Barry, > I already have info on ... NZCPS ... If you send me the info you have (and the info you want) I could try and fill in the gaps for the NZ group (of which I am not a member but would seriously consider becoming one). It's probably only a phone call away from here, assuming you have a recent contact phone number or address... Andrew. ################### From: kirk martin <98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 15:12:26 PST Subject: heliamphora question? Just glanced at a few CP books I picked up from our Univ. library and read that heliamphora has no digestive enzymes but rather uses microbial action to break down the prey. Was wondering if the type or types of bacteria were establ ished and whether or not a plant had to be "seeded" with the correct bacteria in order to function? Also wondered if the bacteria worked as a group effort or if it was a single organism. If this is common knowledge, I apologize but I haven't had a chance to review any journals yet. I'm anxious to get growing since it has been unseasonably warm in washington but know how fast the weather can change. Is the postal system equipped in any way to keep plants alive now or should I wait until March? Thanks, Kirk W. Martin 1100 Vanarsdol St. Clarkston Wa. 99403 509 758-4854 ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 18:39:23 -0800 Subject: Re: heliamphora question? wait untill april or come to the seattle area and pick out the plant you want _Heliamphora_ don't really like frost! kevin ################### From: carnipla@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 02:15:41 EST Subject: Introduction Good Evening: To start with the basics, I'd like to thank Rick Walker for his assistance. It has been a pretty steep learning curve, but I think I'm there. My name is Tom Johnson and I reside in Glendale, a suburb of Los Angeles. I've been growing CP with varying levels of intoxication since the mid 1970s. I enjoy all CP, but my favorites are Pings, Utrics, and Nepenthes. I just completed construction of a 10 ft by 10 ft plastic covered greenhouse. So i'm hoping to enjoy the rewards of greenhouse cultivation this summer--assuming that the plastic doesn't melt in the heat. I grow too many of my plants under lights and welcome the opportunity to grow Nepenthes taller than 12", and without the burned upper leaves. I am also the ICPS Seddbank coordinator. At present, the Seedbank has an excellent selection of Sarracenia seed. But alas, Nepenthes seed is sadly lacking. I plan to put the seedbank list on the network. Inquiries are welcome. I have a Heliamphora nutans threatening to flower and am looking for pollen for the first flower. Also, does anyone grow or know of someone who grows U. campbelliana or U. jamesoniana? I presently have small pants of U. asplundii for trade. Tom ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 13:24:16 +0100 Subject: welcome Tom, >Good Evening: You meant, good morning, didn't you? OK, OK, just a Kraut's joke 8-) Welcome on board! Kind regards from the old world Jan ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 14:41:47 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: welcome > Tom, > >Good Evening: > > You meant, good morning, didn't you? > OK, OK, just a Kraut's joke 8-) > > Welcome on board! > Kind regards from the old world > Jan Guten Morgen Jan, looks like in some parts of the old world a 'good morning' starts at 14:30. :-) Mahlzeit, Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland Electronics Lab. jmh@tko.vtt.fi | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512230 ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 13:59:43 +0100 Subject: Re: heliamphora question? Kirk, you wrote: >(...)that heliamphora has no digestive enzymes but rather uses microbial >action >to break down the prey. This is true for the 4 eastern spp., only. Quite recently, JAFFE, MICHELANGELI & al. (1992) have demonstrated _H.tatei_ to *have* digestive enzymes (& wax scales...). All _Heliamphorae_ seem to have surfactants which cause the prey (ants) to drown faster in the pitcher fluid than in the water of nearby bromeliads or ponds. Kind regards Jan ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 14:15:12 +0100 Subject: Re: welcome >Guten Morgen Jan, Tach Michael, >looks like in some parts of the old world a 'good morning' starts >at 14:30. :-) Not yet (it was 13:24, anyway!) ;-) I *received* Tom's mail in the morning. Good (Friday) afternoon to you all! Jan ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:52:20 GMT+1 Subject: seed germination Some time ago I bought quite a lot of "tuberous" Drosera seeds from Allen Lowrie. Unfortunately germination rate was extremely low (almost zero) though I've trated them with giberellic acid. Does anybody know how to break seed dormancy with this group of sundews really efficiently? best regards Andreas ################### From: Oliver T Massey(CFS) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 11:22:51 EST Subject: Re: Introduction Tom Johnson: >>I've been growing CP with varying levels >>of intoxication since the mid 1970s. Welcome aboard, but who is intoxicated, you or your CP - or both together? That roach liqueur is heady stuff! :) Putting the ICPS seedbank on the network is a great idea, looking forward to it. For your greenhouse, I'm assuming you used the UV stabilized plastic. Here in Florida the UV will last at least 3+ years, while the standard plastic fragments very, very quickly. Good growing florida Tom Massey@hal.fmhi.usf.edu ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 10:06:40 MST XSubject: Re: Introduction >Some time ago I bought quite a lot of "tuberous" Drosera seeds from >Allen Lowrie. Unfortunately germination rate was extremely low >(almost zero) though I've trated them with giberellic acid. >Does anybody know how to break seed dormancy with this group of >sundews really efficiently? Andreas: I have no advice for you on this, but a few thoughts which perhaps our xerophytically inclined colleague M.Chamberland can destroy. I get the impression that the seeds of plants which grow in seasonally very dry climates (like the desert plants of Arizona or Western Australia) are very slow to germinate. Apparently they are very cautious about germinating, being afraid to germinate during a dry season (sorry for being so anthropomorphic). I usually do not try to grow tuberous _Drosera_ from seed for precisely this reason, although I have had excellent luck with a f