################### From: Don_Burns-EPUR01@amail.mot.com Date: 2 Jan 94 22:10:50 -0600 Subject: FW: Journal of Tropical Forest Science 5(1) > would you perchance know the address of the publisher of this document >is it in english? even knowing of all the errors or perhaps because of >them i would enjoy seeing it. Kevin, The address you were looking for in Kuala Lumpur is as follows courtesy of a friend in Penang: Director General, Institut Penyelidikan Perhutanan Malaysia (FRIM), 52109, Kepong, Kuala Lumpur. Tel : 60-3-634-2633 Fax : 60-3-636-7753 I suggest you address your correspondence as above. The letter inside the envelope can be in English. If you decide to call you should have no trouble finding someone who speaks English. Its been several years since I have been there, but I believe KL is EST plus 13 hours. Don Burns epur01@email.mot.com ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 09:31:38 MST XSubject: FW: Journal of Tropical Forest Science 5(1) Welcome back Varmints! I've got my _Sarracenia_ seed in the greenhouse in a chilly area (gets to 50 F at night) in the sun, and some are starting to germinate already! This is surprising to me. I used to store _Sarracenia_ seed in the refrigerator for about 4 months for stratification, but it seems that for at least some of the seed, just 4 weeks of chilly weather is fine. I see I have a seedling of _S.alata_ from Angelina Texas germinating, which I'm very excited about. I got this from a packet of ancient, nearly all dead seed from the ICPS seed bank, and am pretty surprised that even one seed germinated. On a far more irritating note, I just watered my _Nepenthes_ which I keep in my office. Something seemed a bit strange about the water (I keep a jug of distilled water in my office), so I tasted it. Dammit! My office mate keeps some sea anemones by his desk, and by adding some damned brine mix packet to *MY* distilled water, he turned it into sea water. So now I have to come back to the office tonight and flush out all my plants which I just watered with brine. I am irritated. Fortunately I only watered two of the plants, but since they are in a terrarium, the entire tank has been compromised. Sheesh. :( Barry ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 09:37:56 -0800 Subject: happy new year? nice to see you back i was geting fairly lonesome with no action on the listserv. that was kind of forward of that person to just help them selvs that way to your nepenthes water that way! i hope you use some verry firm tones with the dope. kevin s. ################### From: MALOUF@ESTD.NRL.NAVY.MIL Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 12:49:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nepenthes watered with brine Hey Barry, Sorry to hear about what happened! Maybe you should surreptitiously fill your distilled water jug with potassium chloride brine instead of sodium chloride brine :). Let's see how your office mate's sea anemones like it! It's a pain to have to flush out a terrarium. I hope your Nepenthes pull through. Perry ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 10:55:48 MST Subject: Re: happy new year? >listserv. that was kind of forward of that person to just help them selvs >that way to your nepenthes water that way! i hope you use some verry firm >tones with the dope. Yeah, well he has some water stored in the room too. No doubt it was just an oversight on his part. Mistakes happen---that's just part of being an organic life form! B ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 17:38:30 +0000 XSubject: Re: happy new year? +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Sorry for this late reply but I'll still bother otherwise I feel somehat all parasitic on this conference! >When propagating Mexican Pings, do you Ping-experts use the small, >succulentleaves of the resting plant, or the larger leaves when the plant is >actively growing? You can use either. If the large leaves, you'll get messy (yeuch) but they sdtill work. Advantage is that they can be cut into chunks so you get more damaged edge so you get more plantlets. Disadvantage is that they need higher temperature and humidity to stimulate the plantlet generation. Small leaves("winter") are easier, there are more of them but they generally produce fewer plantlets each, often only 1 each. Exceptions to above are: P. alfredae - grows a new plantlet at end of each sinuous summer leaf. Winter leaves are so small and scale like that they are very difficult to use (don't know anyone whose even tried!!!) P. gypsophila - summer leaves not tried (by me). Winter leaves,treat as a true succulent. Detach them. Leave them in open air, warmish (60F/15C minimum), for about 1 week, a little longer shouldn't matter. Detached tips will dry, then harden, then form bumps. After 1 week, treat as normal Ping cutting and you should get better than 90% strike rate. P. primuliflora - why bother? It makes lots of plantlets on its summer leaf ends without any help at all! >In the wild, why does the plant rest? Is it to survive a cooler >winter or a hotter summer? Or is seasonal drought the issue? Drought(ish)! >I am always pondering a trip down to Oaxaca and that area to look for Pings. I >have been through only a few Mexican Ping habitats, but have >never had the opportunity to stop (although each time, as I rode the Mexican >bus through the mountains near Guadalajara, I kept my face pressed longingly >against the glass looking out!). If anyone was ever serious about a trip to Mexico to hunt Ping's, I'd consider it. But it would have to be for more than one! Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 18:10:38 +0000 Subject: Re: New Subscriber Speaks. +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Rupes (Rupes?) So you must know Alastaire? Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 18:00:14 +0000 Subject: Re: +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG >Northern Belize is probabally another area that would be of interest to people >hunting CP's. First, most of Belize is good for CPs but mainly Utrics, especially the aquatics. There's a couple of Drosera (I gave the one I found to a CP'er in Carolina who promptly never spoke to me again! This was despite my also giving him N. rajah - which I no longer have since I gave to him, so don't ask!!!) There are no Pings that I know of, nor much of anything else carnivorous. Second, did you catch the lie above. Au contraire (you do speak French don't you?), EVERYTHING is carnivorous. Basic rule in Belize - if it moves, it sucks blood. Be warned - don't say I didn't tell you. Third, in Belize they have the Fer de Lance. Who in their right mind would hunt CP's at risk of meeting one of them? Forget that I did, it's just a rhetorical question. Do take out insurance though. You need a jet to Miami IMMEDIATELY if bitten plus about 9 months to learn to exist again (I'm serious). Fourth, (you did all know I could count didn't you?), you're being kind - almost all the Belizian brits are "pompous, arrogant airheads" but I'm afraid we've a lot more everywhere else too, not just Belize!!! What was it someone recently said abouit 'orrible americans abroad - let no-one doubt the British ability to be horrible-er. Fifth, to reiterate, if anyone's serious about Mexico (NOT Belize - notice the emphasis on NOT), I'd be interested depending on the warning time, duration, etc.. Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 18:12:30 +0000 Subject: Re: +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG And if Cacti are so great, what about the Bromeliads? No-one ever mentions Broms! Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 18:07:52 +0000 Subject: Re: +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG >Please bear in mind that I was born in Guildford, Surrey, near London. Idon't >hold the attitude that all Brits (or Britt's for that matter ;)) are >brain dead twits, only those in the Foreign Service...... You of all people, a Brit, seem to be forgetting: All government employees Ford UK The Post Office The Gas Companies The Electricity companies All british hotel reps Brit tourists that eat chips (fries) overseas unless in the USA Brit tourists that spend a week anywhere and never teavel further than a mile from the hotel Brit tourists that go to Spain, Tenerrife, Majorca Brit tourist that travel by plane with Children Need I go on? Regards Paul (European) ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 13:18:58 MST XSubject: Re: Paul: Thanks for the information on the _Pings_. It seems that most people prefer to use the more succulent leaves. They are, as you noted, less messy. Several weeks ago I took a few leaves from just about every _Ping_ I have and I have gotten 100% strike rate, so I'm feeling pretty pleased. Every Mexican _Ping_, that is. The U.S. ones I propagate by seed. My _P.agnata_ is flowering and after I took a variety of measurements (and preserved the corolla lobes for Jan to ponder) I selfed it. I'm hoping to get lucky here. >P. alfredae - grows a new plantlet at end of each sinuous summer leaf. I am sad to admit that recently I was sent a few plantlets of this interesting species and managed to lose it. I have difficulty with the plants that require a high-pH medium. >P. gypsophila - summer leaves not tried (by me). Winter leaves,treat You mean _P.gypsicola_? >>I am always pondering a trip down to Oaxaca and that area to look for >If anyone was ever serious about a trip to Mexico to hunt Ping's, I'd >consider it. But it would have to be for more than one! Indeed I am serious in going---in that I intend to go sometime within the next 3 years. But I have no firmer information than that. I think I have to wait for my and my wife's finances to stabilize a bit. She doesn't know any spanish and so she's enrolling in a class today. I'm taking it with her *porque necesito practicar* in a big way! I don't know how variable spanish is in Mexico, having only explored a few estados, but I'm curious if the strong indian influence in the Oaxaca regions change things much... Barry ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 15:10:14 +0800 Subject: Re: >>>Please bear in mind that I was born in Guildford, Surrey, near London. >> Idon't >hold the attitude that all Brits (or Britt's for that matter ;)) are >>>brain dead twits, only those in the Foreign Service...... >> >>You of all people, a Brit, seem to be forgetting: >> All government employees >> Ford UK >> The Post Office >> The Gas Companies >> The Electricity companies >> Brit tourist that travel by plane with Children Well, here in the US we must have a lot of imported Brit(t?)s working in the same services as you list above, for your rule to hold :-). >> Brit tourists that spend a week anywhere and never teavel further than >> a mile from the hotel Ahhh, this reminds me of that (for a change :-)) funny British comedy which one of our networks have acquired: Are You Being Served? They did a great sendup of the entire store staff going to some place in Spain for vacation. And at that, I didn't get the joke about never traveling away from the hotel :-). Robert ################### From: michael Date: Tue, 04 Jan 1994 18:54:36 -0700 (MST) XSubject: Re: >Indeed I am serious in going---in that I intend to go sometime within the >next 3 years. But I have no firmer information than that. I think I have >to wait for my and my wife's finances to stabilize a bit. She doesn't know >any spanish and so she's enrolling in a class today. I'm taking it with >her *porque necesito practicar* in a big way! I don't know how variable >spanish is in Mexico, having only explored a few estados, but I'm curious I don't know spanish, but from what I've hear from other botanical explorers, the answer is yes! >if the strong indian influence in the Oaxaca regions change things much... > >Barry ################### From: michael Date: Tue, 04 Jan 1994 18:58:15 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: On Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:35:26 -0800 Paul Temple said: > >Second, did you catch the lie above. Au contraire (you do speak French >don't you?), EVERYTHING is carnivorous. Basic rule in Belize - if it >moves, it sucks blood. Be warned - don't say I didn't tell you. > >Third, in Belize they have the Fer de Lance. Who in their right mind >would hunt CP's at risk of meeting one of them? Forget that I did, >it's just a rhetorical question. Do take out insurance though. You >need a jet to Miami IMMEDIATELY if bitten plus about 9 months to learn >to exist again (I'm serious). > Good gods, chap! Blasted place sounds as bad as the Isle of Komodo :-) Michael ################### From: 98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 19:04:57 PST Subject: New member I've just recently joined your newsgroup. I've recently graduated from washington state univ with my BS in Microbiology. Truthfully, I have limited experience with CP's but very curious. Perhaps one of you can point out a few good written resources for beginners and I would appreciate any advice and recommendations for plants for the newcomer. address is: Kirk Martin 1100 vanarsdol st clarkston, wa 99403 If anyone has composed a plant list I would be curious to know what is out there? Thanks. I used to grow various succulents before joining the navy so not totally plant illiterate. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 08:55:49 +0800 Subject: Re: >>On a far more irritating note, I just watered my _Nepenthes_ which I keep in >>my office. Something seemed a bit strange about the water (I keep a jug >>of distilled water in my office), so I tasted it. Dammit! My office mate >>keeps some sea anemones by his desk, and by adding some damned brine mix >>packet to *MY* distilled water, he turned it into sea water. So now I have >>to come back to the office tonight and flush out all my plants which I just >>watered with brine. I am irritated. Fortunately I only watered two of the >>plants, but since they are in a terrarium, the entire tank has been >>compromised. Sheesh. Someone accidentally or intentionally poisoning my water jugs here at work is one of my worst fears. Fortunately my office mate has neither plants nor fish. You're lucky it was Nepenthes. They are the most resistant to bad water, but it's still no fun to have to clean out a terrarium :-(. R. ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 10:21:28 GMT+1 Subject: hello Andreas Wistuba A.Wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de Hello! As I m new to this carnivorous plant discussion group I want to introduce myself shortly: I m 26 years old and became interested in CP s about twelve years ago. After I was first interested in any CP s, I ve now specialised in Nepenthes and Heliamphora which I grow in a greenhouse, under fluorescent tubes and in vitro. At the moment I m mainly interested in tissue culture propagation of various CP s (mainly Nepenthes and Heliamphora). I became interested in this e-mail-group by Jan Schlauer who also told me that recently a plant order from my pricelist was organized via this list. So perhaps some of you know that I run some kind of a part time nursery selling in-vitro-propagated plants. Besides my interest in CP I like travelling to far-away countries. I combined both interests some times by travelling to Venezuela and to Indonesia and Malaysia a few times in search for Heliamphora and Nepenthes. In Indonesia I travelled to Kalimantan, Sulawesi and Sumatra. Another Interest of myself is nature-photography. I studied biology at Heidelberg University and specialized in molecular biology. At the moment I m working at the German Cancer Institute (dkfz) and doing my Ph.D-thesis there. I m interested in communicating with people who are interested in the same fields as I am and I d also be glad to change plants and informations..... . I hope this was the way of self-introduction which was requested for. Please excuse my english-errors. Is anyone also working with tissue cultures of CP? Did anybody succeed meristemming Nepenthes? Does anybody grow tuberous Drosera in vitro? I d like to trade young plants of Nepenthes for other Nepenthes I do not yet grow or for tubers of tuberous Droseras. I have Heliamphora tatei, Nepenthes inermis and more to trade for other rare Nepenthes or Heliamphora s. I d be very happy to find some mails in the computer. ################### From: shlam@hkueee.hku.hk Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 17:40:14 HKT XSubject: hello On Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:37:13 -0800 "Paul Temple" > wrote: > > And if Cacti are so great, what about the Bromeliads? No-one ever mentions Br oms! > I'm interested in Broms, especially Tillandsias. I have a hard time, trying to establish contacts with other bromeliad growers. Do you know of a bromeliads mailing list? Regards, --- Shing Lam shlam@hkueee.hku.hk ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 11:25:09 +0100 Subject: Re: hello Andreas, Nice to see you have managed your way here! You wrote: >Is anyone also working with tissue cultures of CP? Yes, I am (Lentibulariaceae only). OK, probably this isn't news for you. >Does anybody grow tuberous Drosera in vitro? I think some friend of Joachim Nerz did succed with in vitro germination of _D.fimbriata_ (!!) recently (Jo' told so yesterday evening, if I recall that correctly). >I d be very happy to find some mails in the computer. You'll soon be happy if you don't have too many mails there, I'm afraid ;-) Kind regards Jan ################### From: MALOUF@ESTD.NRL.NAVY.MIL Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 7:58:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Welcome, Andreas >Andreas Wistuba writes: >Hello! >As I m new to this carnivorous plant discussion group I want to >introduce myself shortly: (some stuff deleted) Hello Andreas, I will add a rejoinder to Jan Schlauer's welcome! The few Nepenthes I have are grown under fluorescent lights during the winter. I keep them in clear plastic bags to maintain adequate humidity, and they seem to do just fine. Already I see several new pitchers on my N. Alata and N. Khasiana. In the summer I take the plants outside (I live just outside of Washington, DC where the summers are generally hot and humid). Your list of Nepenthes seems rather long and, unfortunately, the plants I have are already included on it (I think). Did your list include N. Khasiana? I don't remember, but here in the States it's not hard to find. Two other enthusiasts I know, who do not have INTERNET access, are Rob Sacilotto and Bill McLaughlin. Rob has a nursery where he raises Sarraceniae, Nepenthes, Droserae, and other CP's along with many other interesting plants. Bill McLaughlin takes care of the CP collection at the U.S. Botanic Garden here in Washington, DC which has a fairly good Nepenthes collection. I act as their ears and voices over the INTERNET. >I became interested in this e-mail-group by Jan Schlauer who also told >me that recently a plant order from my pricelist was organized via this >list. So perhaps some of you know that I run some kind of a part time >nursery selling in-vitro-propagated plants. (more stuff deleted) I, Rob, and Bill are among those who are participating in the group order as organized by Don Burden. Don is also a subscriber to this group and now that you have e-mail access then arrangement of the order will probably be a lot easier for everyone. At last count, the order requested from you adds up to quite a bit. (I wonder if you have enough cultures of N. Rajah to satisfy the demand? :)). >... At the moment I m working at the German Cancer Institute >(dkfz) and doing my Ph.D-thesis there. (more stuff deleted) I sympathize with this--I'm trying to finish my Ph.D. thesis in electrical engineering at U. of Maryland. >Is anyone also working with tissue cultures of CP? >Did anybody succeed meristemming Nepenthes? >Does anybody grow tuberous Drosera in vitro? Bill McLaughlin informs me that Ron Gagliarda has successfully propagated tuberous Droserae via tissue culture. Ron was until very recently the proprietor of Hungry Plants, a CP nursery which is now either out of business or under a different business arrangement (others in the group know more about this). He has now taken a job at the Botanic Garden in Atlanta, according to Bill. >I d like to trade young plants of Nepenthes for other Nepenthes I do not >yet grow or for tubers of tuberous Droseras. >I have Heliamphora tatei, Nepenthes inermis and more to trade for >other rare Nepenthes or Heliamphora s. >I d be very happy to find some mails in the computer. You won't be disappointed, I'm sure! Again, welcome. It's nice to have you here. Perry Malouf ################### From: Leif Johansson Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 14:17:01 +0100 XSubject: Welcome, Andreas unsubscribe cp ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 94 11:01:25 MST XSubject: Welcome, Andreas >Someone accidentally or intentionally poisoning my water jugs >here at work is one of my worst fears. Fortunately my office It took nearly three hours to flush out the plants, rinse them off, and clean out the terrarium. Blech. Barry ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 12:06:12 GMT+1 Subject: Re: hello > Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 02:26:21 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: hello Hello Jan! Of cause I know thet you're working on Lentibulariaceae in vitro and in fact I even know that Mathias Schmidt was able to germinate D. fimbriata in vitro. I was just looking for people I do not yet know working with plant tissue cultures of CP. ========================================================== ========================================================== I was able to establish in vitro cultures of "tuberous" Drosera's by taking sterilized stem internodes of upright types and "not-yet-opened rosettes" of rosette-types. Therefor I'm looking for new material to work with; especially upright types. ========================================================== ========================================================== Does anybody grow Heliamphora neblinae and/or has seeds of this sp??? All the best Andreas Wistuba ################### From: p00758@psilink.com Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 10:47:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Welcome, Andreas Welcome to all the new members. Hope you like the group. Unlike Leif Johansson > The few Nepenthes I have are grown under fluorescent >lights during the winter. I keep them in clear plastic bags >to maintain adequate humidity, and they seem to do just fine. >Already I see several new pitchers on my N. Alata and N. Khasiana. I'm experimenting with low humidity for Nepenthes right now. I've got three _N.alata_ and a _N.khasiana_ sitting on my windowsill out in the open. The humidity has got to be pretty low since we've got snow on the ground, but the N.alata's seem to be growing fairly well (and pitching nicely). >In the summer I take the plants outside (I live just outside >of Washington, DC where the summers are generally hot and humid). I'm thinking about going back to school for my masters in Computer Science and my top choice at this point is U.California at Berkeley, so hopefully I'll be able to experience some of this miraculous west coast weather. >Bill McLaughlin informs me that Ron Gagliarda has successfully >propagated tuberous Droserae via tissue culture. Ron was >until very recently the proprietor of Hungry Plants, a CP >nursery which is now either out of business or under a different >business arrangement (others in the group know more about this). I think that he's getting away from selling retail CP and is going to try selling wholesale CP, such as the Venus Flytrap, to commercial growers. They will probably be sold as novelty items in florist shops and similar places. Davin ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Thu, 06 Jan 1994 09:16:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hungry Plants Hi Folks, I hope everyone had a great holiday season. Perry's right that Ron Gagliardo has moved down to the Atlanta Botanical Garden. The Company status as per December's CPN is Wholesale only for Hungry Plants. The retail business is being handled through Southern Carnivores (a reincarnation of of World Insectivorous Plants?) with the following address being used for both companies: P.O. Box 864081, Marietta, GA 30060. Take Care, Jeff (in North Carolina) ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 11:25:09 MST XSubject: Hungry Plants In the most recent CPN (22:4) is an article on p86 re: _Heliamphora_. There is some interesting information regarding the nature of the sandy Tepui soil, temperature extremes etc for the plants in the wild. The text is pretty short, but the author present a key and checklist of features for the species. While the article is nice, there is this photo that really gets me irritated. Why must people go to these places and then have a picture taken of them holding a rare plant they tore out of the ground? Yep, there's the author with a nice _H.ionasii_, his trophy kill for the safari. Why couldn't he have been kneeling down by some lovely plants still growing? Commune vs. conquest. Hmmph! Jan, this guy lists the following taxa _H.nutans_ _H.minor_ _H.minor f. laevis_ _H.ionasii_ _H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa_ _H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa f. glabella_ _H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata_ _H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata f. glabella_ _H.tatei var. tatei_ _H.tatei var. tatei f. macdonaldae_ _H.tatei var. tatei f. tyleri_ _H.tatei var. neblinae_ _H.tatei var. neblinae f. parva_ Being something of a lumper in philosophy, I have a certain distaste for all these names. Are the various forms and varieties even published? Barry ################### From: R Britt Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 10:36:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: hello Hi Andreas, It is nice to have you aboard, having seen all the discussion of the nice propogation you have been doing! I wanted to mention that I am planning to visit Heidelberg some time this coming summer. Can I invite myself to come visit you? :) -Dave Britt ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:37:42 GMT+1 Subject: Re: hello > Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 10:57:18 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: R Britt > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: hello > Hi Andreas, > > It is nice to have you aboard, having seen all the discussion > of the nice propogation you have been doing! I wanted to > mention that I am planning to visit Heidelberg some time > this coming summer. Can I invite myself to come visit you? :) > > -Dave Britt > > > > > You're invited! > ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:47:35 +0100 Subject: _Heliamphora_ Barry, you wrote re _Heliamphora_ article in CPN: >While the article is nice, there is this photo that really gets me >irritated. Why must people go to these places and then have a picture >taken of them holding a rare plant they tore out of the ground? Yep, >there's the author (...) Is it the author (WILLIAM BAUMGARTL) or JONAH BOYAN? If it is the second, he's the one who originally found _H.ionasii_, named after him (ionasii being Latin for "Jonah's") by B.MAGUIRE, and what he has in his hands is indeed the TYPE SPECIMEN of this species (there was such a photo in a past issue of CPN, already). Unfortunately, types must not be living plants and thus, they have to be eradicated 8-( If it is the author himself, he's indeed got bad manners! 8-( 8-( I don't have that issue of CPN yet, so I cannot decide which is the case. >with a nice _H.ionasii_, his trophy kill for the >safari. Why couldn't he have been kneeling down by some lovely plants >still growing? Commune vs. conquest. Hmmph! > >Jan, this guy lists the following taxa >_H.nutans_ >_H.minor_ >_H.minor f. laevis_ >_H.ionasii_ >_H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa_ >_H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa f. glabella_ >_H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata_ >_H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata f. glabella_ >_H.tatei var. tatei_ >_H.tatei var. tatei f. macdonaldae_ >_H.tatei var. tatei f. tyleri_ >_H.tatei var. neblinae_ >_H.tatei var. neblinae f. parva_ > >Being something of a lumper in philosophy, I have a certain distaste >for all these names. Are the various forms and varieties even published? There are only 5 species, and the many infraspecific taxa need not disturb you (these are indeed the result of many years of rather thorough comparative study in the field as well as in herbaria of the infraspecific variability in this genus, which is rather confusing for people who are not familiar with the plants). Two of the names listed above are not published and obviously errors: >_H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa f. glabella_ The author certainly means _H.h.var.h.f.glabra_ >_H.tatei var. tatei f. tyleri_ This may be an (inappropriate and *invalid*) attempt to re-establish some kind of _H.tyleri_, which is considered a synonym of _H.tatei_ not deserving any taxonomic status since the late B.MAGUIRE's revision (MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:57 (1978)). A comprehensive generic realignment including a key (is it the same key as presented in the CPN article? I don't think so because Don mentioned W.BAUMGARTL relied mainly on flower characters) has been published by the late J.A. STEYERMARK (ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984)). Since then, the genus looks like: (extracted from my nomenclatural synopsis) _Heliamphora_ BENTH. _H.heterodoxa_ STEYERM., FIELDIANA BOT.28:239 (1951) T:Ptari-tepui, Bolivar, 2.11.1944, J.A.Steyermark 59766 (F); Mt.Ptari-tepui Ven. _H.heterodoxa_ STEYERM. _f.glabra_ (MAGUIRE) STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) BN:H.heterodoxa STEYERM. var.glabra MAGUIRE ; Serra do Sol _H.heterodoxa_ STEYERM. _var.exappendiculata_ MAGUIRE & STEYERM., MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:54 (1978) T:Churi-tepui, 1 km N Camp 8, NW slope, Bolivar, 29.11.1953, J.J.Wurdack 34262 (NY); Mt.Churi-Tepui, Chimanta-Tepui Ven. _H.heterodoxa_ STEYERM. _var.exappendiculata_ MAGUIRE & STEYERM. _f.glabella_ STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) T:Auyan-tepui between Drizzly Camp & Second Wall, Bolivar, 11.5.1964, J.A.Steyermark 93712 (VEN); Mt.Auyan-tepui Ven. H.heterodoxa STEYERM. var.glabra MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:54 (1978) T:Serra do Sol, 28.12.1954, B. & C.Maguire 40412 (NY)= heterodoxa STEYERM. f.glabra (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. _H.ionasii_ MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:54 (1978) T:between N peak & central plateau of Ilu-tepui, 15.3.1952, B.Maguire & Jonah Boyan 33418 (NY); Mt.Ilu- tepui Ven. H.macdonaldae GLEASON, BULL.TORR.CL.58:367 (1931)} T:top of peak 7 of Mt.Duida, 8.1928, G.H.H.Tate 1022 (NY)= tatei GLEASON f.macdonaldae (GLEASON) STEYERM. _H.minor_ GLEASON, BRITTONIA 3:164 (1939) T:Auyan-tepui, Bolivar, 12.1937, G.H.H.Tate 1126 (NY); Mt.Auyan-tepui Ven. _H.minor_ GLEASON _f.laevis_ STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) T:Auyan- tepui, Bolivar, 1.1949, F.Cardona 2661 (VEN); Mt.Auyan-tepui Ven. H.neblinae MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:57 (1978) T:1-8 km N Cumbre Camp, Cerro de la Neblina, Amazonas, 10.1.1954, B.M.J.Wurdack & Bunting 37151 (NY)= tatei GLEASON var.neblinae (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. H.neblinae MAGUIRE var.parva MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:59 (1978) T:5 km W Cumbre Camp, Cerro de la Neblina, Amazonas, 6.1.1954, B.M.J.Wurdack & Bunting 37141 (NY)= tatei GLEASON var.neblinae (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. f.parva (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. H.neblinae var.viridis MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:59 (1978) T:above Camp 3, Cerro de la Neblina, Amazonas, 24.12.1953, B.Maguire & al. 36834 (NY)= tatei GLEASON var.neblinae (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. _H.nutans_ BENTH., TRANS.LINN.SOC.18:432 (1840)}{\b T:Mt.Roraima, R.Schomburgk 645 (K); Mt.Roraima Ven. _H.tatei_ GLEASON, BULL.TORR.CL.58:368 (1931) T:crest of ridge 25, Mt.Duida, Amazonas, 26.11.1928, G.H.Tate 453 (NY); Mt.Duida Ven. _H.tatei_ GLEASON _f.macdonaldae_ (GLEASON) STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) BN:H.macdonaldae GLEASON; Mt.Duida Ven. H.tatei GLEASON var.macdonaldae (GLEASON) MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29:57 (1978) BN:H.macdonaldae GLEASON = tatei GLEASON f.macdonaldae (GLEASON) STEYERM. _H.tatei_ GLEASON _var.neblinae_ (MAGUIRE) STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) BN:H.neblinae MAGUIRE Cerro de la Neblina Ven. _H.tatei_ GLEASON _var.neblinae_ (MAGUIRE) STEYERM. _f.parva_ (MAGUIRE) STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71:311 (1984) BN:H.neblinae MAGUIRE var.parva MAGUIRE; Cerro de la Neblina Ven. H.tyleri GLEASON, BULL.TORR.CL.58:368 (1931) T:Savannah hills, summit of Mt.Duida, Tate 1044 (NY)= tatei GLEASON It is a somewhat depressing fact that both specialists (MAGUIRE and STEYERMARK) in the genus _Heliamphora_ have died in the past few years. Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:51:55 GMT+1 Subject: Re: > Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 10:30:04 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: > In the most recent CPN (22:4) is an article on p86 re: _Heliamphora_. > There is some interesting information regarding the nature of the > sandy Tepui soil, temperature extremes etc for the plants in the wild. > The text is pretty short, but the author present a key and checklist of > features for the species. > > While the article is nice, there is this photo that really gets me > irritated. Why must people go to these places and then have a picture > taken of them holding a rare plant they tore out of the ground? Yep, > there's the author with a nice _H.ionasii_, his trophy kill for the > safari. Why couldn't he have been kneeling down by some lovely plants You critisize the photograph of Bill showing him with a plant of the species he calls H. ionasii (In fact in my opinion it's not ionasii but a new species). As I was also shown with a ionasii plant in CPN a few years ago I can explain for vmy part: I think the actual size of an impressing plant is shown much better than in comparison with a camera-lenscap, pack of cigarettes.... . And in fact I did not throw away my plant after the photo was taken but cut off the leaves and packing it away. I'm sure Bill did the same. You can of cause criticize taking plants from the wild, however that's another story.... > still growing? Commune vs. conquest. Hmmph! > > Jan, this guy lists the following taxa > _H.nutans_ > _H.minor_ > _H.minor f. laevis_ > _H.ionasii_ > _H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa_ > _H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa f. glabella_ > _H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata_ > _H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata f. glabella_ > _H.tatei var. tatei_ > _H.tatei var. tatei f. macdonaldae_ > _H.tatei var. tatei f. tyleri_ > _H.tatei var. neblinae_ > _H.tatei var. neblinae f. parva_ > > Being something of a lumper in philosophy, I have a certain distaste > for all these names. Are the various forms and varieties even published? > > Barry > ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 11:02:51 GMT+1 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ > >Jan, this guy lists the following taxa > >_H.nutans_ > >_H.minor_ > >_H.minor f. laevis_ > >_H.ionasii_ > >_H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa_ > >_H.heterodoxa var. heterodoxa f. glabella_ > >_H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata_ > >_H.heterodoxa var. exappendiculata f. glabella_ > >_H.tatei var. tatei_ > >_H.tatei var. tatei f. macdonaldae_ > >_H.tatei var. tatei f. tyleri_ I doubt whether it's possible to put H. neblinae into the taxon H. tatei. In fact both plants grow very far apart from each other! Could it not be that they just look similar by chance,without a direct relationship??? Perhaps they both stand quite close to a more primitive form of heliamphora from which the other taxa have evolved. ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 11:34:07 GMT+1 Subject: CPN Can anybody help me regarding the following problem: Since mid of 1992 I do not receive CPN anymore though I paid both for 1992 and 1993 (For 1993 even twice). I tried to contact Mr. Leo Song both by e-mail and normal mail regarding this problem, however I got no reply. Does anybody of you know him and could ask him regarding this problem? I know from several other german subscribers of CPN who have the same problems. If it's not possible to get CPN regullary outside the US anymore, is there a possibility to subscribe it via a member of this list??? Any help would be welcome All the best Andreas Wistuba ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 13:40:26 +0100 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ Andreas, you wrote: >I doubt whether it's possible to put H. neblinae into the taxon H. >tatei. In fact both plants grow very far apart from each other! Could >it not be that they just look similar by chance,without a direct >relationship??? _H.tatei_var.tatei_ and _H.tatei_var.neblinae_ are not only connected by morphological but also by geographic intermediates as _H.tatei_ is not restricted to Mt.Duida in the strict sense. There are populations of _H.tatei_ on Mt. Huachamacari and Mt. Aracamuni, extending the whole range of this species to such a degree that _H.tatei_var.neblinae_ becomes just a variety endemic to the extreme south (not "very far apart" from the other populations). In a genus as polymorphic and geographically restricted as _Heliamphora_, it is not very probable that two populations which are not closely related to each other should look similar and occupy neighbouring ranges "just by chance". And certainly, the two varieties are (morphologically and geographically) closer to each other than to the rest of the genus. The inclusion of _H.neblinae_ in _H.tatei_ was the result of thorough examination of living specimens (STEYERMARK himself studied and collected both varieties in the field) as well as on the basis of rather copious herbarium material. STEYERMARK gives an extensive account on the reasons why the two cannot be separated specifically in his realignment. >Perhaps they both stand quite close to a more primitive form of >Heliamphora from which the other taxa have evolved. It seems _H.tatei_ is quite complex a species. In fact, it is the only "true" carnivore known so far in that genus (the possession of digestive enzymes has been demonstrated in the paper by MICHELANGELI & AL. which I have mentioned on this list some time ago). I cannot judge whether this is primitive or derived within _Heliamphora_: If it is the plesiomorphous character state, it may have been lost in the eastern species by secondary reduction, thus rendering them derived. On the other hand if digestive enzymes are a "new" trait only acquired by the western _H.tatei_ as an apomorphy, this would be an argument in favour of a derived status of this species. I can see no reason why the two varieties of _H.tatei_ should be of paraphyletic origin derived from "different ends" of a more primitive form (which should be the +/- direct ancestor of the other, i.e. nowadays the eastern species as well). Indeed, morphology and recent distribution indicate monophyletic origin of _H.tatei_ from a common ancestor (representing a "side branch" separated from the rest of the genus) to me. Kind regards Jan ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 08:29:35 MST XSubject: Re: _Heliamphora_ >>While the article is nice, there is this photo that really gets me >>irritated. Why must people go to these places and then have a picture >>taken of them holding a rare plant they tore out of the ground? Yep, >>there's the author (...) >I don't have that issue of CPN yet, so I cannot decide which is the case. Jan: (Good to hear from you) The great hunter depicted in the article is not Johnah Boyan. I know the photograph you are thinking about. The fellow is W.B. >new species). As I was also shown with a ionasii plant in CPN a few >years ago I can explain for vmy part: I think the actual size of an >impressing plant is shown much better than in comparison with a >camera-lenscap, pack of cigarettes.... . And in fact I did not throw away You know, I can see points to this, but I don't completely agree. It is true that one gets an immediate understanding of how big a plant is when compared to a human being. And the understanding is more profound than if the object used for scale were a lens-cap, or pack of cigarettes. I don't know why---maybe seeing a person in the photo draws the spectator into the photograph in a more intimate way than would be achieved with an inanimate scale-object. But I think that a photo of a plant still in the ground is much better and more informative. Using the recent photo as an example, here are some questions not addressed by a single plant in the explorer's arms ---The pitchers are long, but are they naturally arranged prostrate, ascending, or erect? ---Do all the pitchers face the same way (perhaps south), or do they face the center or away from the center of the rosette? ---Is the plant terrestrial or epiphyte? ---Does the plant grow with other characteristic species nearby ---Does it clump or grow individually. These questions can be addressed quite nicely by having a photo of the plants in habitat, and even with a few admiring humans in the shot too. Andreas, we both (if I remember your introduction correctly) enjoy nature photography, and I my personal aesthetics rebel against the safari type shot for the reasons above. The photos in quality nature magazines never have to fall back on showing plants held by humans, and they still convey the appropriate information. >Can anybody help me regarding the following problem: >Since mid of 1992 I do not receive CPN anymore though I paid both for >1992 and 1993 (For 1993 even twice). >I tried to contact Mr. Leo Song both by e-mail and normal mail regarding >this problem, however I got no reply. Does anybody of you know him >and could ask him regarding this problem? >I know from several other german subscribers of CPN who have the >same problems. >If it's not possible to get CPN regullary outside the US anymore, is >there a possibility to subscribe it via a member of this list??? >Any help would be welcome Andreas, I can help you on this one (and perhaps not offend you while I'm at it!). First, Leo is a great guy but rarely has the time to answer email and snail-mail (normal mail). I know him, and the only way to contact him is either by visiting him or talking to him on the phone. But I also know that I can determine the status of your ICPS membership by calling Steve Baker who handles distribution. If you email to me a list of the people who seem to be having trouble getting CPN, I could find out from Steve what their status is (i.e. not on the mailing list, etc). If you send me your mailing address I could check that too. I should have the reply ready for you monday, as long as I can track Steve down. Barry ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 17:14:15 GMT+1 Subject: Re: > These questions can be addressed quite nicely by having a photo of the > plants in habitat, and even with a few admiring humans in the shot > too. Andreas, we both (if I remember your introduction correctly) > enjoy nature photography, and I my personal aesthetics rebel against > the safari type shot for the reasons above. The photos in quality > nature magazines never have to fall back on showing plants held by > humans, and they still convey the appropriate information. The more I think about the theme the more I agree with you! However never underestimate the luck and pride you feel when you're dreaming of a certain plant for years and then you've finally found it. These are the situations creating pictures like those. In fact I never would call a shot like this a nature photo or very aesthetic. And for myself I would not send the photo of myself being published with the Heli in '90 or '89 (I'm not sure about the exact date) to CPN today anymore for aesthetical reasons and the obvious parallel with a photo of an animal with it's hunter shot on a safari. The only thing I wanted to explain is that a photo like the ones we're talking about not neccessarily means that the photographer later treats nature like garbage in just using a living being for a photograph and later throwing it away. By the way: I do not think the plant which has been collected by William Baumgartl is H. ionasii. The type of H. ionasii has very prominent hair (up to 5mm) in the upper part of the pitchers mouth. Further the pitchers are almost trumpet-like in the upper part while the plant collected by William Baumgartl has quite slender, erect pitchers and very short hair. I think it's exactly the Heliamphora pictured in Charles Brewer-Carias' Book: The Lost World of Venezuela and its Vegetation (If anyone is interested I'll look for the ISBN) which was photographed on Tramen Tepui. In fact Tramen and Ilu have the same Base and are only distinct peaks of the same mountain. Jan, what's your opinion about this? > >Can anybody help me regarding the following problem: > >Since mid of 1992 I do not receive CPN anymore though I paid both for > >1992 and 1993 (For 1993 even twice). > > Andreas, I can help you on this one (and perhaps not offend you while > I'm at it!). First, Leo is a great guy but rarely has the time to answer > email and snail-mail (normal mail). I know him, and the only way to contact > him is either by visiting him or talking to him on the phone. But I also > know that I can determine the status of your ICPS membership by calling > Steve Baker who handles distribution. If you email to me a list of the > people who seem to be having trouble getting CPN, I could find out from > Steve what their status is (i.e. not on the mailing list, etc). If you > send me your mailing address I could check that too. I should have the > reply ready for you monday, as long as I can track Steve down. Dear Barry, thank you very much for your offer of helping us with our problems regarding CPN. At the moment we try to get all the names via a note in the german CPS-journal ("Das Taublatt"). The people I know personally are: -Holger Hennern -The German CPS (GFP) library -Eric Schlosser (He meanwhile quit his subscription after having had these problems for some time) -and myself Another friend of mine Thomas Carow had the same prosome time ago but meanwhile he seems to be accepted by CPN again as he gets his issues at the moment. I've heared that there are even more people but I've to ask at the GFP-secretaries for the names. Any help would be great as it's a stupid situation paying for CPN and then having to borrow it from friends for reading. Thankyou Andreas ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 09:22:49 MST XSubject: Re: Hey all: I was chatting with Rick Walker, who does the noble job of maintaining this list so well, and came up with an idea for something useful we should have stored in the archives of our group. I would like to assemble the addresses of all the CP societies for easy access. The information I would like to have is the following.... Organization Name: Organization Address: Subscription rates: Publication name, related benefits: Meetings: Quick profile: Date revised: So for example, the three CP bodies I belong to would be described as... International Carnivorous Plant Society Fullerton Arboretum California State University at Fullerton Fullerton, CA 92634 USA Subscription: $15 U.S.A./$20 Foreign Membership Benefits: Carnivorous Plant Newsletter (quarterly), seedbank. Meetings: None Profile: The ICPS is the largest CP organization in the world. Revised: January 1994 Australian Carnivorous Plant Society P.O. Box 391 St. Agnes, South Australia 5097 Subscription: $15 AU Membership Benefits: Bull. of the A.C.P.S. (quarterly), seedbank. Meetings: Quarterly Profile: A small society with a strong emphasis on Australian flora Revised: January 1994 carnivorous plant email newsgroup listserv@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (email) walker@hpl-cutt.hpl.hp.com (email to Rick Walker) Subscription: Free Membership Benefits: email communication, archived databases Meetings: none Profile: An unmoderated discussion group of approximately 100 people. Revised: January 1994 The revision date will just be useful since some of these associations disappear after a while. So, send me all the addresses etc. you have for various societies. I have the Bay Area CP one, but that's it. Don't assume anyone else is going to do it---they're assuming you'll send me info.... If I just get an address for a society, I'll send to them directly for info, but it would be faster if you had it. Barry ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Fri, 07 Jan 94 16:47:30 +0000 Subject: Re: New CP Newsletter +---------------------------+ TM From: Paul Temple | | | | | | | | Dept: Digital | d | i | g | i | t | a | l | Func: Net Comms | | | | | | | | DTN: 7781-1582 +---------------------------+ Easynet: fangio::temple_p Internet: temple_p@bst.dec.com Loc/MS: UCG Phil As usual I'm lating in reading, and therefore replying, but double flowered Sarras are (reputedly) available for purchase if you've got the bottomless pocket to afford them. Best picture of one (for sale) that I've seen is in the Hinodo-Kadan nursery. Forgive me if I've mis-spelt nursery name - it's the one in Japan (and it's VERY expensive, as is the postange because the nursery is on a tiny island that's almost in Hawaii and everything - including post - is expensive in Japan - so you pay a heavy price for their having to ship it via the mainland first.) Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Fri, 07 Jan 94 16:56:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Robert Sad thing is that Are You Being Served is a bit too near the truth! Regards Paul (still European) ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Fri, 07 Jan 94 16:55:06 +0000 XSubject: Re: Barry Yep, you spotted the deliberate mistake. I did mean P gypicola (I was still suffering from seasonal celebrations!). As to P alfredae needing high pH, I didn't know that!!! Maybe I can improve my success with it and send you some. >Indeed I am serious in going---in that I intend to go sometime within the >next 3 years. But I have no firmer information than that. I think I have >to wait for my and my wife's finances to stabilize a bit. She doesn't know >any spanish and so she's enrolling in a class today. I'm taking it with >her *porque necesito practicar* in a big way! I don't know how variable >spanish is in Mexico, having only explored a few estados, but I'm curious >if the strong indian influence in the Oaxaca regions change things much... Fine, I can wait. Looks like you got lots of interest going - a group would be cheap(ish). As to spanish - I can't speak it either but being in a foreign country without the benefit of their language never caused a problem yet. I point to my mouth for food. hands under head for a bed, ... Need I go on? See yousometime. Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Fri, 07 Jan 94 16:59:43 +0000 Subject: Re: >Good gods, chap! Blasted place sounds as bad as the Isle of Komodo :-) I obviously failed to make myself clear. It's worse!!! (I did mention the horseflies that attack any bare flesh that's exposed whilst swimming, didn't I? Then there's all the wonderful fungi that learnt from Athletes Foot but found other nooks and crannies to inhabit. Heard enough yet? Regards Paul ################### From: "Paul Temple" Date: Fri, 07 Jan 94 17:18:00 +0000 XSubject: Re: Shing Lam (do I call yu Shing or Lam - excuse my ignorance!) >I'm interested in Broms, especially Tillandsias. I have a hard time, >trying to establish contacts with other bromeliad growers. Do you know >of a bromeliads mailing list? No sorry, don't know of a mailing list but would like to. I've a large collection of specimens, mostly NOT Tillansias, all collected wild before conservation was a serious consideration. They were collected by my Uncle (Peter Temple) who was a world authority and knew "everyone" worth knowing. I've just inherited his Brom library including photographic slides and hand drawings. I'm trying to sort it all out (still movoing the books from his house to mine!). Regards Paul ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 09:58:58 +0800 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ >>From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) wrote: >> >>It seems _H.tatei_ is quite complex a species. In fact, it is the only >>"true" carnivore known so far in that genus (the possession of digestive >>enzymes has been demonstrated in the paper by MICHELANGELI & AL. which I >>have mentioned on this list some time ago). I cannot judge whether this is >>primitive or derived within _Heliamphora_: Jan, what do you know about the presence of wetting agents (surfactants?) in the pitchers of other H. species? The reason I ask is trivial, but based on observations of dropping some ants in my pitchers of H. heterodoxa x minor. The ants went straight to the bottom of the pitcher, as if the water had no surface tension. I believe that Sarracenia also has surfactants in their pitchers, as do Nepenthes... Robert ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 20:54:15 +0100 Subject: Re: Re: Andreas, you wrote: >By the way: >I do not think the plant which has been collected by William >Baumgartl is H. ionasii. >The type of H. ionasii has very prominent hair (up to 5mm) in the >upper part of the pitchers mouth. Further the pitchers are almost >trumpet-like in the upper part while the plant collected by William >Baumgartl has quite slender, erect pitchers and very short hair. I >think it's exactly the Heliamphora pictured in Charles Brewer-Carias' >Book: The Lost World of Venezuela and its Vegetation (If anyone is >interested I'll look for the ISBN) which was photographed on Tramen >Tepui. In fact Tramen and Ilu have the same Base and are only >distinct peaks of the same mountain. > >Jan, what's your opinion about this? I do not know the whole range of variability of _H.ionasii_, nor does it seem too probable that _H.nutans_ (which may have pitchers rather similar to those of the Tramen-tepui plant) should have reached the Ilu-massif. So what I can say at the moment, you might be right with your assumption of a new whatsoever-taxon (I'm not too happy with specific rank in _Heliamphora_: too many "species" had to be lumped together after their variability became evident). Perhaps you should consider varietal rank. OK, if the plant really was closer to _H.nutans_ than to _H.ionasii_ (which I cannot decide for reasons stated above), ssp. would be better than var. because of geographic rather than genetic isolation, but as the same holds true for _H.tatei_neblinae_ and nevertheless STEYERMARK did use var., this rank would be in conformity with current infraspecific classification in _Heliamphora_. Do you have specimens of both, _H.ionasii_ and the Tramen-tepui plant? Kind regards Jan ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 14:49:12 MST XSubject: Re: Re: >never underestimate the luck and pride you feel when you're >dreaming of a certain plant for years and then you've finally found it. Andreas: I know that feeling myself very well! Although I've not yet gone to Venezuela or Malaysia, scouting and finding _Darlingtonia_, _Sarracenia_, and all the other N. American CP is an extremely thrilling adventure. >The only thing I wanted to explain is that a photo like the ones we're >talking about not neccessarily means that the photographer later >treats nature like garbage in just using a living being for a photograph >and later throwing it away. Understood! I'll look into this CPN problem. How about getting me information about your own CP societies. I'm not only interested in getting information on the English language ones! One other thought about CP photography. When people take photos of plants it is useful to have some idea of scale, so the reader knows whether the plant is a few cm or decimeters in diameter. But such photos are often unattractive, so I usually take pictures with a scale in the view, and with scale out of the view. But nearly useless are photos with a bad choice of reference object. Randy Lamb wrote a fantastic article for CPN some time back on _P.villosa_, but as his reference object he used a Canadian coin. I'm still not sure how big that is! The size difference between a U.S. 10 cent and 25 cent piece is significant, for example! Barry ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 16:51:39 MST XSubject: Re: Re: >As to P alfredae needing high pH, I didn't know that!!! Maybe I can I'm not sure on that yet. Don't kill your plants yet on my advice! B ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Fri, 07 Jan 1994 17:06:58 -0800 Subject: Tissue culture questions Dear tissue culture gurus: I recently took a one day tissue culture course and got successful germination of _Pinguicula sp. "Agarra Mosca Violeta"_ in vitro. The little plants are now about 0.5 cm in dia. with several leaves apiece. I used SIGMA #6793 phytamax orchid multiplication media. This was a compromise mix because we were attempting tissue culture and seed germination with the same media. Now that I've gotten some success, I'd like to try some other plants. After gleaning through the archives, this is what I came up with for recommended media (these are mostly due to Jan S.): _Pinguicula_ Carroll's media (ICPN v11 n4 12/82 pp. 93-96) Murashige-Skoog media diluted 1:5, sucrose 20g/L Terrestrial _Utricularia_ Carrol's media Aquatic _Utricularia_ Carroll's media (no agar) Pringsheim & Pringsheim media _Sarracenia_ ? _Nepenthes_ Knudson C media _Drosera_ ? _Cephalotus_ ? _Dionaea_ ? _Byblis_ ? For solid media, use 8-12 g/L agar. Can anyone fill in the blanks for the unspecified genera? I'm planning on buying an assortment of powdered media from SIGMA and want to get the appropriate types. SIGMA carries both Knudsons C and MS in little foil pouches pre-measured for 1L of media. Unfortunately, SIGMA doesn't carry anything even close to Carroll's formula. If I want to use this, I'll have to mix it myself. Is their any interest in making a group buy of chemicals for Carroll's media? I could pre-measure and mix the chemicals into individual packets suitable for making 1L of finished media. I could then redistribute the packets for the cost of the component ingredients. Finally, is their any truth to the persistant rumour that _Nepenthes_ has been successfully cultured from tendrils? If so, how is it done? (Hormones, etc...) Thanks! -- Rick ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Fri, 07 Jan 1994 17:11:51 -0800 Subject: CP photography > Randy Lamb wrote a fantastic article for CPN some time back on > _P.villosa_, but as his reference object he used a Canadian coin. I'm > still not sure how big that is! The size difference between a U.S. > 10 cent and 25 cent piece is significant, for example! Every photo bag should have a 5 cm long white stick with black tick marks every cm. If you want to be fancy, the back side can be black with white ticks. Makes a very tasteful looking and unambiguous reference. -- Rick ################### From: Bob Cohen Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 18:07:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Tissue culture questions > Dear tissue culture gurus: I took a stab at several genera using Carolina Biological Supply's VFT (dionea) multiplication media, which appears to be a weak MS type medium with a growth horomone added (I forget which one). I was particularly interested in Sarracenia, so I tried using explants from several locations - growth point, root tip, juvenile leaves, etc. No luck. The only genera I had any luck with was Pinguicula, which seems to propagate vegetatively at the drop of a hat anyway. I'm going to try using seeds in my next batch. Any tips appreciated. ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 18:22:04 -0800 Subject: Welcome to CP Kirk Martin my name is kevin and i'm from everett wa. localy the easiest book to find is the 2nd one by Pietropaolo called Carnivorous Plants of the World. I like the propigating information in it verry well but most people i know prefer others because Pietropaolo is not verry compleat in its naiming of plants. most people like the book by Gordon Cheers better. the title is the same for both books and they are kind of spendy $$$$$$. most book stores will order eather of them for you gladly. the carnivorous plants of the united states and canada by Donald Schnell is a steal at $10.00 but is limited in scope. most book stores have an index to books in print if you look up carnivorous plants in the subject books you wont be dissapointed. Jerry Quick's OUCH CACTS GREENHOUSE 376 PARKER BRIDGE RD. WAPATO, WA. 98951 Is a repuatible cp dealer on your side of the big hump the phone number is 509-877-4740 or 877-4332 our local cp club is The Pacific North West Carnivorous Plant club C/O Tom Kahl 8219 South 130th. St. Seattle Wa. 98178 or C/O David Wong 8163 Elliott St. Vancouver, British Columbia Canada V5S 2P3 you are wellcome to call me at 1-206-252-2911 dont forget the cp archive at our listserv all the best things in life and more are waiting there for you and more good growing Kevin S. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 94 22:47:25 MST XSubject: Welcome to CP Kirk Martin Does anyone have the snail-mail address for Paul Kane, CPer somewhere in Australia? B ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 1994 09:29:08 +0100 Subject: Withdrawal Dear tissue culture gurus: >After gleaning through the archives, this is what I came up with for >recommended media (these are mostly due to Jan S.): > > _Pinguicula_ > Carroll's media (ICPN v11 n4 12/82 pp. 93-96) > Murashige-Skoog media diluted 1:5, sucrose 20g/L The first can be recommended for ALL _Pinguicula_ species tested so far (ca. 30 spp. of different subgenera and sections). > Terrestrial _Utricularia_ > Carrol's media I can recommend this media ONLY for the large-leaved species _U.alpina_, _U.longifolia_, and _U.calycifida_. !!! * W A R N I N G * !!! DO NOT USE CARROLL's MEDIA FOR _Utricularia_ sect.Pleiochasia! IT WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY KILL YOUR PLANTS (at least young seedlings) RAPIDLY. It did so for me with several species 8-( I haven't yet any solution to the problems concerning these, some other terrestrial species, and most _Genliseae_. _G.pygmaea_ seems to be very tolerant, _G.violacea_ grows and flowers (!!) in 1/5 MS media (J.Nerz, pers. comm.). > Aquatic _Utricularia_ > Carroll's media (no agar) > Pringsheim & Pringsheim media The latter being the better one. The reference is: Amer.J.Bot.49:898-901 (1962). Addition of sucrose may be helpful (the original formula doesn't contain sucrose). Kind regards and happy growing! Jan ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 1994 11:32:58 +0100 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ Robert, you wrote: >Jan, what do you know about the presence of wetting agents (surfactants?) >in the pitchers of other H. species? The reason I ask is trivial, but based >on observations of dropping some ants in my pitchers of H. heterodoxa x minor. >The ants went straight to the bottom of the pitcher, as if the water had >no surface tension. I believe that Sarracenia also has surfactants in their >pitchers, as do Nepenthes... In the paper by JAFFE, MICHELANGELI, & al.: "Carnivory in Pitcher Plants of the Genus _Heliamphora_ (Sarraceniaceae)", New Phytol. 122:733-44 (1992), it is stated on p.739 that the water in the pitchers of _H._ have a lower water tension than that from nearby ponds or bromeliads. Indeed, their experiment was very similar to yours: they dropped ants into the pitchers and measured the time the ants were able to swim on the water surface. The surfactant wasn't identified, however. No species is referred to, but on p. 734 in discussing the whole genus the same is repeated. So I assume it is a generic trait for _Heliamphora_. Andreas, I wrote in a reply to you: >(...) nor does it seem too probable that _H.nutans_ (which may have pitchers >>rather similar to those of the Tramen-tepui plant) should have reached the >>Ilu-massif. Until yesterday, I laboured under the mistake (inexcusable, again!) that _H.nutans_ and _H.ionasii_ were allopatric species. This is of course almost complete nonsense as I see now, after having read MAGUIRE more thoroughly. Their geographic ranges do overlap completely, only _H.ionasii_ being somewhat restricted to the north. _H.nutans_ DOES DEFINITELY OCCUR on Mt. Ilu-tepui (cf. e.g. a collection made 1952 by MAGUIRE, no. 33379), and these populations are almost continuously connected to others reaching as far to the south as Mt. Roraima. This changes the world for me. Under these circumstances the high probability of introgression (by _H.nutans_) must be considered, and you=B4ll almost certainly run into big trouble and lenghty discussions if you try to establish a third (sympatric and ill differentiated) species for this region. I=B4m quite convinced now that the _H.nutans_ like plants from the Ilu region are indeed _H.nutans_, maybe vars. different from the type, but rather certainly NOT ANOTHER SPECIES. Other, more _H.ionasii_ like plants could represent atypical vars. of this species or even hybrids. Anyway, I must hasten to mention that I'm not sufficiently familiar with these populations to judge their relationship or variability satisfactorily. Kind regards and sorry for the confusion Jan ################### From: 98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU Date: Sun, 09 Jan 94 01:00:51 PST XSubject: Re: _Heliamphora_ This is only my second message but wanted to thank kevin and jeff for both coming to the rescue of a CP newbie. I expect i'll be running out for a few texts so that I can see exactly what a heliamphora really looks like. Also Jeff I'll definitely look you up for a drosera as soon as the weather warms up some. In the meantime I'll accept all advice and listen and learn from your discussions. (couldn't believe the size of my mail account after being away only two days I don't dare go on vacation: very active group!!!) Thanks everyone Kirk Martin ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 13:06:03 +0100 Subject: Re: Kirk, you wrote: >I expect i'll be running out for a few texts so that I can see exactly what a >>heliamphora really looks like. You should read the respective texts by MAGUIRE (MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29 1978; descriptions of the whole genus, _H.ionasii_, and _H.neblinae_), STEYERMARK (ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71 1984; extensive discussion on variability and taxonomic consequences), and by JAFFE, MICHELANGELI & al. (NEW PHYTOL.122 1992; many interesting news concerning distribution and ecology). If you can, you should also look up WISTUBA (DAS TAUBLATT (3) 1993) or BAUMGARTL (CPN (4) 1993, cited in Don's, Barry's and Andreas' messages). There, you can find (colour) photos of the not yet satisfactorily classified and possibly new taxon/taxa from Tramen/Ilu-tepui. Happy reading! Jan ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 13:26:09 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Tissue culture questions > Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 17:07:45 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: Rick Walker > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Tissue culture questions Rick, you asked for informations regarding tissue culture media. I hope the infos I added to your mail is of value for you or somebody else. > Now that I've gotten some success, I'd like to try some other plants. > After gleaning through the archives, this is what I came up with for > recommended media (these are mostly due to Jan S.): > > _Pinguicula_ > Carroll's media (ICPN v11 n4 12/82 pp. 93-96) > Murashige-Skoog media diluted 1:5, sucrose 20g/L > Terrestrial _Utricularia_ > Carrol's media > Aquatic _Utricularia_ > Carroll's media (no agar) > Pringsheim & Pringsheim media > _Sarracenia_ I use 0,66 x Knudsen C* with various concentrations of BAP and IBA for multiplying and rooting. I also used 0,16 x MS but I like Knudsen better. > _Nepenthes_ > Knudson C media I use the same media as for Sarracenias (mostly Knudsen C*) and I add 0,2 mg/l - 2 mg/l BAP for multiplying. I feel that a special rooting medium is not necessary as the plantlets root easyly when transplanted to soil. I also used Andersons medium (Sigma) and it worked very well also. N. ephippiata seems to like it. > _Drosera_ They grow well on 0,66 x Knudsen C*. I'm still experimenting to find an optimal multiplication medium. > _Cephalotus_ Sigmas modified MS (1/2 x macro-, 1 x micronutrients) works great for me (M 0153) with various concentrations of BAP and IBA. > _Dionaea_ see publications. > _Byblis_ Just use the same medium as for Cephalotus. It works for all B. liniflora types and mostly for B. gigantea. However sometimes I have problems with vitrification in case of B. gigantea. > For solid media, use 8-12 g/L agar. *= You may add 37,26mg/l Na2EDTA and 27,8 mg/l FeSO4 x 7H2O. I always add the MS-vitamins to the Knudsen C medium. > Finally, is their any truth to the persistant rumour that _Nepenthes_ has > been successfully cultured from tendrils? If so, how is it done? (Hormones, > etc...) There is a Diploma thesis done on this by Mr Thilo Schmidt-Rogge some years ago. He managed to callus pieces of tendrils but he did not get plants from tis callus. Several people including myself have tried to reproduce his experiments but we did not manage even to get callus. Even more the explants died rapidly within a few days while controls on various other media stayed alive for months. I then tried to find a medium which alllows callus-production from tendrils and ended with media containing Thidiazurone in various concentration as well as a whole set of other hormones but all I managed to produce was callus from tenddrils and leaves, but I failed to getting plants from this callus. I do not know who wrote this ad in CPN some years ago but I wonder whether somebody managed the problems. I'm in doubt a little regarding the diploma thesis mentioned as one of its major conclutions was that Nepenthes are absolutely dependent on amino-acids in the media. I've produced thousands of Nepenthes in vitro non of which ever was fed with amino acids. Maybe best I do not tell them about their needs. Some literature which might be of interest: Pinguicula Adams et al. 1979. HortScience 14(6):701-702. Dionaea Hutchinson 1984. Scienta Horticulturae 22:189-194. Beebe 1980. Bot. Gaz.141(4):396-400. Parliman et al. 1982. J.Amer.Soc.Hort.Sci. 107(2):305-310. Parliman et al. 1982. J.Amer.Soc.Hort.Sci. 107(2):310-316. Drosera Janssens 1986. Med.Fac.Landbouww.Rijksuniv.Gent. 51(1):61-66. Byblis Bunn 1985. Australian Horticulture. 83(5):103 Nepenthes Rathore et al. 1991. J.PlantPhysiol. 139:246-248. (They multiply N. khasiana. You better forget about the results of this paper in use for other Nep-species as N. khasiana seems to be the only species hardy enough to survive the extremely auxine rich media they describe. I tried them on other species and my plants endded as a bunch of roots coming even from the leaves!!!!! However I think this could be a hint that tissue from Nepenthes leaves is indeed able to regenerate non-leaf tissues. (I'm thinking about this tendril project I'm still working on)) There are a few more papers about Drosera and Cephalotus I did not mention above. All the best Andreas Wistuba ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 13:30:44 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Tissue culture questions > Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 18:11:00 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: Bob Cohen > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Tissue culture questions > > > > > > Dear tissue culture gurus: > > > > I took a stab at several genera using Carolina Biological Supply's VFT > (dionea) multiplication media, which appears to be a weak MS type > medium with a growth horomone added (I forget which one). I was > particularly interested in Sarracenia, so I tried using explants from > several locations - growth point, root tip, juvenile leaves, etc. No > luck. The only genera I had any luck with was Pinguicula, which seems > to propagate vegetatively at the drop of a hat anyway. I'm going to > try using seeds in my next batch. Any tips appreciated. > I used meristems with one or two leaf primordia succesfully in case of a few Sarracenia clones. It's a bit tricky working under the stereo-microscope but I'd regard meristemming as absolutely impossible without one. > ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 13:39:45 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Re: > Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 11:56:23 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Re: > Andreas, you wrote: > >The type of H. ionasii has very prominent hair (up to 5mm) in the > >upper part of the pitchers mouth. Further the pitchers are almost > >trumpet-like in the upper part while the plant collected by William > >Baumgartl has quite slender, erect pitchers and very short hair. I > >think it's exactly the Heliamphora pictured in Charles Brewer-Carias' > >Book: The Lost World of Venezuela and its Vegetation > if the plant really was closer to _H.nutans_ than to _H.ionasii_ (which I > cannot decide for reasons stated above), ssp. would be better than var. > because of geographic rather than genetic isolation The plant shows no similarities to me at least in pitcher shape and hair to nor H. ionasii neither H. nutans however I know the adult plants only from photos. > Do you have specimens of both, _H.ionasii_ and the Tramen-tepui plant? > I have mature plants of "our" H. ionasii as well as a small seedling of W. Baumgartl's plant. Andreas > ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 13:53:19 GMT+1 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ > Date: Sat, 8 Jan 1994 02:33:21 -0800 > Reply-to: > From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ >> > Andreas, I wrote in a reply to you: > > >(...) nor does it seem too probable that _H.nutans_ (which may have > >pitchers rather similar to those of the Tramen-tepui plant) should > >have reached the Ilu-massif. > > Until yesterday, I laboured under the mistake (inexcusable, again!) > that _H.nutans_ and _H.ionasii_ were allopatric species. This is of > course almost complete nonsense as I see now, after having read > MAGUIRE more thoroughly. Their geographic ranges do overlap > completely, only _H.ionasii_ being somewhat restricted to the north. > _H.nutans_ DOES DEFINITELY OCCUR on Mt. Ilu-tepui (cf. e.g. a > collection made 1952 by MAGUIRE, no. 33379) I'd be not completely sure about this as a plant most likely to be a natural hybrid between H. ionasii and another doubtful sp. (I called this one "spec. 1" for the moment though I know that you hate such pseudo-names, Jan :-)) occurs on the common Base of Ilu and Tramen which looks much like a small H. ionasii with short hair, that means much like H. nutans (I inexcusably call this one H. spec "2" at the moment :-)). Spec. "1" looks different for me as the W. Baumgartl-plant however I'm not 100% sure about this at the moment. I think best would be a study based on RFLP or other methods which stronger estimate the genotype rather than the phenotypic expression to clarify such questions. sincerely Andreas ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 14:19:07 GMT+1 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ > From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) > Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_ > Andreas, you wrote: > > >I doubt whether it's possible to put H. neblinae into the taxon H. > >tatei. In fact both plants grow very far apart from each other! > >Could it not be that they just look similar by chance,without a > >direct relationship??? Jan, you wrote: > > _H.tatei_var.tatei_ and _H.tatei_var.neblinae_ are not only connected by > morphological but also by geographic intermediates as _H.tatei_ is not > restricted to Mt.Duida in the strict sense. There are populations of > _H.tatei_ on Mt. Huachamacari and Mt. Aracamuni, extending the whole range > of this species to such a degree that _H.tatei_var.neblinae_ becomes just a > variety endemic to the extreme south (not "very far apart" from the other > populations). In fact Duida, Huacamacari an Maharuaka are only short distances from each other. The same is true for Neblina and Aracumuni, in fact A. is merely an outgrowth of the Neblina massif. However both groups of mountains are about 170km from each other with no mountain or tepui in between to "jump" on. As the seeds of Heliamphora are not equipped to being distributed by the wind nor by animals (no "fruit" to be eaten by animals, no hair to cling into hair or birds feathers) but for swimming which should explain populations of H. nutans and H. heterodoxa down from the tepuis in the Grand Sabana I can hardly imagine how a Heliamphora seed could span such a distance. All the other species have very small ranges (with the exception of H. heterodoxa var. exappendiculata, which after having seen photographs of this plant seems to be something very special to me... . I almost do not dare to write, however I do not see much similarities to the type-heterodoxa:-)). > It seems _H.tatei_ is quite complex a species. In fact, it is the only > "true" carnivore known so far in that genus (the possession of digestive > enzymes has been demonstrated in the paper by MICHELANGELI & AL. which I > have mentioned on this list some time ago)> Jan, could you send me a photocopy of this paper or give me a reference if you do not have the paper itself? All the best Andreas ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 14:27:22 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Welcome, Andreas > From: MALOUF@ESTD.NRL.NAVY.MIL > Subject: Welcome, Andreas Perry wrote: > Your list of Nepenthes seems rather long and, unfortunately, the plants > I have are already included on it (I think). Did your list include > N. Khasiana? I don't remember, but here in the States it's not > hard to find. I have N. khasiana. > Two other enthusiasts I know, who do not have INTERNET > access, are Rob Sacilotto and Bill McLaughlin. Rob has a nursery > where he raises Sarraceniae, Nepenthes, Droserae, and other CP's > along with many other interesting plants. Bill McLaughlin takes > care of the CP collection at the U.S. Botanic Garden here in > Washington, DC which has a fairly good Nepenthes collection. > I act as their ears and voices over the INTERNET. What kinds of Nepenthes do they grow? > You won't be disappointed, I'm sure! Again, welcome. It's nice > to have you here. In fact you were right! My real work-time in the lab here is decreasing rapidly!!! Thanks to everyone in this group for letting me participate and to the people who welcomed me. All the best Andreas ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 14:38:36 GMT+1 Subject: question Is it possible to send graphics or other documents via e-mail. I have the possibility to attach documents with the e-mails I send however I do not know whether it works or whether it's necessary to have winpmail (The program I use) to receive such documents. ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 19:49:47 +0100 Subject: _Heliamphora_, again! Andreas, you wrote re: the MAGUIRE specimen: >I'd be not completely sure about this... I'm never *completely* sure about anything. Remember I'm not sufficiently dead! 8-) >...as a plant most likely to be a natural hybrid between H. ionasii and >another doubtful sp. occurs on the common Base of Ilu and Tramen which >looks much like a small H. ionasii with short hair, that means much >like H. nutans (I inexcusably call this one H. spec "2" at the moment >:-)). The MAGUIRE collection is not the only record of _H.nutans_ from the Ilu range. Moreover, there are several specimens collected between Mt. Roraima and Mt. Ilu-tepui. Do you assume all of them to be either hybrids or your "spec. 2"? *ALL* other authors call it _H.nutans_. Why do you think it is not this species (maybe a var.)? >I think best would be a study based on RFLP or other methods which >stronger estimate the genotype rather than the phenotypic expression >to claryfy such questions. RFLP is a good method to examine the hybrid nature of an individual, but you mustn't underestimate the phenotype as it is responsible for an important component of evolution (viz. selection). In such variable taxa, it seems desirable to see as many individuals (from different populations) as ever possible and study them (if you want so, also genetically). But the results make very little sense (if any) if you pick out just a few individuals and then examine every single molecule of them: you will never grasp the range of variability. You see, it's rather a problem of material than of method. re:_H.tatei/neblinae_: >However both groups of mountains are about 170km from each other >with no mountain or tepui in between to "jump" on. >As the seeds of Heliamphora are not equipped to being distributed by >the wind nor by animals (no "fruit" to be eaten by animals, no hair to >cling into hair or birds feathers) but for swimming... Swimming seeds may be attached to (wet) hair and feathers, BTW. >...which should >explain populations of H. nutans and H. heterodoxa down from the >tepuis in the Grand Sabana I can hardly imagine how a Heliamphora >seed could span such a distance. I agree, this is perfectly true. Nowadays! The tepuis are built of sandstone massifs (prone to rapid erosion), the gaps between them being in fact river valleys of (geologically!) rather modern times. It seems, evolution in _Heliamphora_ is heavily dependent on spatial isolation due to interfertility. If populations have not been isolated from each other in the past (and there are reasons to assume so), no specific or varietal limits could have evolved until "recently". Thus, all the different spp., vars., and ff. are comparatively young, whereas the genus must be rather old, with some of its relatives as far away as (and restricted to) California and Oregon. I do not doubt there are differences between the Duida and Neblina populations, I just don't see a reason why these couldn't be described by varietal distinction. >All the other species have very small ranges (with the exception of H. >heterodoxa var. exappendiculata,... _H.nutans_ (Roraima-Ilu) and _H.minor_ (Auyan-Chimanta) do have rather impressing ranges, too. >... which after having seen >photographs of this plant seems to be something very special to me... >. I almost do not dare to write, however I do not see much similarities >to the type-heterodoxa:-)). The only thing I can say is MAGUIRE *and* STEYERMARK *did* see them (and, as far as I can judge, I can see them, too). It seems you want to shift ranks in the whole genus, with vars. becoming spp. Should then the spp. become sections, subgenera, or even distinct genera? A funny parallel can be seen in the work by STUDNICKA & al.: Heliamphora -> Heliamphoraceae. Just explain to me, what's improved? The result is an increase in the number of names, not of knowledge. And then, there will come the "grand unificator" who lumps all _Heliamphora_ species into a single one. He'll be as correct as you are; it just depends on species definition. Since the times of Linnaeus, the definition and circumscription of species and other ranks has been discussed excessively, but neither of the phenomena which may be observed in nature is as static as any of these definitions. So IMHO, as long as the ranks do represent comparable taxonomic units within their superordinate taxon, they shouldn't be changed. i.e. a var. in _Heliamphora_ need not (and cannot!) be comparable to a var. in _Drosera_. One task of nomenclature is description. The other (as important as the first) is *stability*. Sorry for the long reply! Jan ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 94 13:00:29 MST XSubject: _Heliamphora_, again! Forget about my previous inquiry re: Paul Kane's address B ################### From: wjones@world.std.com (william r jones) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 1994 20:39:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: SIGNOFF CP William Jones ################### From: "Rupert Wilson (Herbarium, RNG)" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 08:15:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: question On Sun, 9 Jan 1994, Andreas Wistuba wrote: > Is it possible to send graphics or other documents via e-mail. I have > the possibility to attach documents with the e-mails I send however I > do not know whether it works or whether it's necessary to have > winpmail (The program I use) to receive such documents. Sure its possible, the best bet is to use the Unix UUENCODE/UUDECODE programs. Simply run UUENCODE to convert your GIF image or other document to a suitable format. Attach this new file to your e-mail and send it. All the recipient has to do is extract the attached file run UUDECODE and the GIF file or other file is back as it was before you sent it. UUENCODE/UUDECODE is so beautiful since it can scan any e-mail quite happily and will only do its stuff when it finds a certain key line marking the start of the UUencoded part. Hot Stuff! Regards, Rupes. _____________________________________________________________________________ | ____ ____ ____ ____ | | /\__/\ /\ /\ /\__/\ /\___\ /\___\ Rupert G. Wilson | | /_/_/ / / / / / /_/_/ / /_/_ /_/_ sbswilsn@reading.ac.uk (Internet) | | /\ __\/ / / / / /\___\/ /\___\ \__/\ Herbarium, School of Plant Sciences | | / /\\ /_/_/ / / / /_/__ ____/ / University of Reading, U.K. :-o | | \/ \\ \___\/ \/ \____\ \___\/ OH DEAR! | |_____________________________________________________________________________| ################### From: Pekka Ala-Siuru Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 10:24:23 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: question On Sun, 9 Jan 1994, Andreas Wistuba wrote: > Is it possible to send graphics or other documents via e-mail. I have > the possibility to attach documents with the e-mails I send however I > do not know whether it works or whether it's necessary to have > winpmail (The program I use) to receive such documents. > Surely it is possible. In Unix system you must first compress the picture file and then encode it. The procedure is like this: compress picture.gif (or whatever the format is .jpg .bmp etc.) the result is a file picture.gif.Z then: uuencode picture.gif.Z < picture.gif.Z > whatever After that you can attach this file whatever to your mail and send it. When receiving mails which include binary data, the procedure is : uudecode whatever uncompress picture.gif.Z ..Pekka ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 10:44:55 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: question > > > > On Sun, 9 Jan 1994, Andreas Wistuba wrote: > > > Is it possible to send graphics or other documents via e-mail. I have > > the possibility to attach documents with the e-mails I send however I > > do not know whether it works or whether it's necessary to have > > winpmail (The program I use) to receive such documents. > > > Surely it is possible. In Unix system you must first compress the picture > file and then encode it. > The procedure is like this: > > compress picture.gif (or whatever the format is .jpg .bmp etc.) > > the result is a file picture.gif.Z > > then: > uuencode picture.gif.Z < picture.gif.Z > whatever > > After that you can attach this file whatever to your mail and send it. > > When receiving mails which include binary data, the procedure is : > > uudecode whatever > uncompress picture.gif.Z > > ..Pekka > > If have got the possibility to attach 'mime-attachments' or whatsoever it is called correctly this process is done automatically. (both for sending and receiving) >From your description it sounds like you have got such mailer. Just try it, select 'attach document' and send it (for example to the list or to me). Hope this helps, Michael r -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland Electronics Lab. jmh@tko.vtt.fi | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512230 ################### From: kirk <98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 01:45:29 PST XSubject: Re: question There is the possibility in a few months I may lose net access just wondering if you have a snail-mail listing of active members here. If not please consider it. I'll manage to get back in the net eventually but would not really care for a total blackout as i do enjoy these discussions. Thanks Kirk ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 14:59:57 GMT+1 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_, again! > From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) > Subject: _Heliamphora_, again! Jan, thankyou for your long reply. You wrote: > The MAGUIRE collection is not the only record of _H.nutans_ from the > Ilu range. Moreover, there are several specimens collected between > Mt. Roraima and Mt. Ilu-tepui. Do you assume all of them to be > either hybrids or your "spec. 2"? *ALL* other authors call it > _H.nutans_. I never said that all H. nutans-plants except the ones from Roraima are something else. I know that H. nutans occurs on Kukenam (approx. 5km from Roraima) as Joachim, Peter and myself found it there. Even more I think that the plant (spec. 1) we found on Tramen could be called still be called a variety of H. nutans depending on the point of view as the flowers show no differences to me. However the pitchers are so different in shape from the typical H.nutans that I wonder why material of this type was never mentioned if it was collected. The plant we think is a hybrid ("spec. 2") between typical H. ionasii and spec. 1 looks much more like typical nutans. Of cause I can not be sure that typical nutans does not occur on Tramen/Ilu only from the fact that we did not find it. However the distance between Ilu and Kukenam is only about 40km, only 1/4 of the distance H. tatei would have had to cross. > re:_H.tatei/neblinae_: > I agree, this is perfectly true. Nowadays! The tepuis are built of > sandstone massifs (prone to rapid erosion), the gaps between them > being in fact river valleys of (geologically!) rather modern times. > It seems, evolution in _Heliamphora_ is heavily dependent on spatial > isolation due to interfertility. If populations have not been > isolated from each other in the past (and there are reasons to assume > so), no specific or varietal limits could have evolved until > "recently". Thus, all the different spp., vars., and ff. are > comparatively young, whereas the genus must be rather old, with some > of its relatives as far away as (and restricted to) California and > Oregon. I do not doubt there are differences between the Duida and > Neblina populations, I just don't see a reason why these couldn't be > described by varietal distinction. > All the other species have very small ranges (with the exception of H. > heterodoxa var. exappendiculata,... _H.nutans_ (Roraima-Ilu) and > _H.minor_ (Auyan-Chimanta) do have rather impressing ranges, too. I know the H. minor from Chimanta as I grow one in my greenhouse and I find it impressive how much it changed from the Auyan-type (Do not get me wrong; I would'nt call it a new spec. :-). However also in this case I wonder why never somebody seems to having had a close look on this "variety".). > >... which after having seen photographs of this plant seems to be > >something very special to me... . I almost do not dare to write, > >however I do not see much similarities to the type-heterodoxa:-)). > > The only thing I can say is MAGUIRE *and* STEYERMARK *did* see them > (and, as far as I can judge, I can see them, too). > > It seems you want to shift ranks in the whole genus, with vars. becoming > spp... Just explain to me, what's improved? I'm aware that the division of a genus into species and subspecies, varieties... is in the responsibility of the author working on the special group. I only fear that a knowledge is lost by slowly reducing the status of a species to a variety which is then easily reduced to just nothing by "the grand unificator". Andreas ################### From: Michael Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 08:55:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: question On Mon, 10 Jan 1994 00:22:25 -0800 Rupert Wilson (Herbarium, RNG) said: > >Sure its possible, the best bet is to use the Unix UUENCODE/UUDECODE >programs. Simply run UUENCODE to convert your GIF image or other document >to a suitable format. Attach this new file to your e-mail and send it. >All the recipient has to do is extract the attached file run UUDECODE and >the GIF file or other file is back as it was before you sent it. >UUENCODE/UUDECODE is so beautiful since it can scan any e-mail quite >happily and will only do its stuff when it finds a certain key line >marking the start of the UUencoded part. > Thanks for the info! But in my case, my PC is running off DOS, not UNIX. I suppose the mainframe I log into to get mail may be using UNIX. If so, I should UUDECODE in that environment before downloading to my PC? Or is a UUENCODed file self-extracting with the UUDECODE command? Michael ################### From: "ANDREW BROOME: NZDRI" Date: 11 Jan 1994 10:09:22 +1200 Subject: Re: question Michael, > But in my case, my PC is running off DOS, not UNIX. > I suppose the mainframe I log into to get mail may be using UNIX. If > so, I should UUDECODE in that environment before downloading to my PC? Well, I use a DOS PC as a terminal to a VMS machine. There is a DOS program which will look after UUencode/decode fro you. Do you have access to FTP through your account? What about modem access to a local BBS, many BBSs have the UU suite of programs available... > Or is a UUENCODed file self-extracting with the UUDECODE command? Not typically although there are some alternative ways of encoding/decoding that I've never used... Just my thoughts. Andrew. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 13:53:54 +0800 Subject: Re; ping stuff >>Small leaves("winter") are easier, there are more of them but they >>generally produce fewer plantlets each, often only 1 each. >> >>Exceptions to above are: >> P. alfredae - grows a new plantlet at end of each sinuous summer leaf. >> Winter leaves are so small and scale like that they >> are very difficult to use (don't know anyone >> strike rate. Sadly I lost my few plantlets of this. The were from in vitro and didn't make the transition to my high humidity ping chamber under lights. Other plants from in vitro did make it. I don't know if the loss was due to my error, or if it was because the thinner leaves of P. heterophylla (formerly alfredae) are more delicate and subject to dehydration or other mishap :-(. >> P. primuliflora - why bother? It makes lots of plantlets on >> its summer leaf ends without any help at all! Actually I get more of the babies during the winter, when things are good & damp. In other news, this weekend I picked up a small _P._moranensis_"A"_ from Peter D'Amato. I was attracted to it because it has green leaves turning to reddish around the edges. It wasn't until I got this home that I realized it looks remarkably like my _P._agnata_ :-(. I hope it's not the same species, but I figure it will be at least a year before I'll have even a prayer of telling. Personally I fear that the majority of Mexican pings are either moranensis or agnata :-). Robert ################### From: "Rupert Wilson (Herbarium, RNG)" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 08:42:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: question On Mon, 10 Jan 1994, Michael wrote: > Thanks for the info! But in my case, my PC is running off DOS, not UNIX. > I suppose the mainframe I log into to get mail may be using UNIX. If > so, I should UUDECODE in that environment before downloading to my PC? > Or is a UUENCODed file self-extracting with the UUDECODE command? > > Michael Again OK, there are ports of the Unix UUDECODE/UUENCODE program for DOS. Check out the following FTP site (or mirror); huh.harvard.edu login: FTP or ANONYMOUS password: your e-mail address CD (move to directory) pub/software/miscellaneous GET (the two files) uudecode.exe and uuencode.exe don't forget to SET TYPE BINARY before transferring download these to your PC and bingo! [You Can GOPHER to huh.harvard.edu if you fancy that too! and its much easier] If you don't want to UUENCODE/UUDECODE on your DOS PC then your mainframe should be able to do this before/after you get the files. No the UUENCODEd file is not self extracting. Hope this helps, Rupert ANYBODY OUT THERE GOT ANY JUICY CP Gifs? ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 10:27:24 GMT+1 Subject: cp group-buy If any of the participants of the group-order wanting to buy cp from me in spring and September did not get my message (!!! urgent !!!) please contact me. I did not get all the return receipts and so I'm in doubt. ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:23:56 +0100 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_, again! Andreas, re:_H.spec._ from Ilu/Tramen >Even more I think that the plant (spec. 1) we found on Tramen could >still be called a variety of H. nutans depending on the point >of view as the flowers show no differences to me. However the >pitchers are so different in shape from the typical H.nutans... The reasons why "pitcher shape" can't be considered a reliable character for delimitation of taxa in _Heliamphora_ is discussed in some detail by STEYERMARK. >...that I wonder why material of this type was never mentioned if it was >collected. "Never mentioned"? Several collections from Ilu were studied by specialists, determined as _H.nutans_, and mentioned, indeed. Following is a list of some specimens (certainly not a complete one, including only material cited in the literature) and the respective references (M=MAGUIRE, MEM.NY.BOT.GARD.29, 1978; S=STEYERM., ANN.MO.BOT.GARD.71, 1984): Maguire 33379 (NY,VEN,US) M:51, S:305 Maguire 33248 (NY,VEN,US) M:51 Delascio & Brewer 4967 (VEN) S:305,307,308 >The plant we think is a hybrid ("spec. 2") between typical H. >ionasii and spec. 1 looks much more like typical nutans. >Of cause I can not be sure that typical nutans does not occur on >Tramen/Ilu only from the fact that we did not find it. How is "typical _H.nutans_" defined and delimited against other species in your system of the genus, and how does your "spec. 1" (or whatever you call the non-hybrid plants which should not resemble _H.nutans_) differ from it? re:_H.minor_ from Chimanta >I know the H. minor from Chimanta as I grow one in my greenhouse >and I find it impressive how much it changed from the Auyan-type (Do >not get me wrong; I would'nt call it a new spec. :-). Do you think it does deserve varietal (or any other) rank, compared to current use of ranks in _Heliamphora_? >However also in this case I wonder why never somebody seems to having had a >>close look on this "variety". "Never somebody"? Specimens and references of _H.minor_ from Chimanta: Wurdack 34172 (NY,US) M:53 Wurdack 34237 (NY,VEN,US) M:53 Steyermark, Huber & Carreno 128416 (VEN: paratype of _H.minor_f.laevis_) S:311 Steyermark, Huber & Carreno 128666 (VEN) S:305,307 Steyermerk, Huber & Carreno 128269 (VEN) S:307 I think they would have recognized the difference between these and _H.minor_ from Auyan if there was a significant one. re:_H.tatei/neblinae_ >I only fear that a knowledge is lost by slowly reducing the status of a >species to a variety which is then easily reduced to just nothing by >"the grand unificator". I don't fear so. STEYERMARK certainly did not "slowly" reduce any rank without good reasons. Indeed, his discussion has very much impressed me, as I think this is exactly how botanic work should look like. This is the reason why I rely on his judgement nearly completely (he has evidently seen more specimens in the field as well as in herbaria than I have myself). Even as a var. the distinct taxon from Neblina is certainly not forgotten, and you can bet your socks as long as botanists are free to ruminate, they'll do their best to stop lumpers from reducing it to just nothing (as well as splitters from doing the opposite...). Kind regards Jan ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:26:37 +0100 Subject: Re: Re; ping stuff Robert, you wrote: >In other news, this weekend I picked up a small _P._moranensis_"A"_ >from Peter D'Amato. I was attracted to it because it has green >leaves turning to reddish around the edges. It wasn't until I got >this home that I realized it looks remarkably like my _P._agnata_ :-(. _P.agnata_ has very short spurs (a few mm) to the corolla and a yellow palate, the corolla lobes being obtuse and not broadening towards the apex. The "summer" leaves are generally not upturning at the margin, and they look like the "winter" leaves. _P.moranensis_ has very long spurs (always longer than 1 cm), no yellow in the corolla, the lobes cuneiform and +/- truncate at the apex. The "summer" leaves are upturning at the margin and they are much larger than the "winter" leaves. At least these two species can't be confused with each other. >Personally I fear that the majority of Mexican pings are either moranensis or >>agnata :-). Remember _P.heterophylla_ is from Mexico, too. Most "new" species in cultivation do belong to _P.moranensis_ or _P.agnata_, however 8-( Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 13:21:27 GMT+1 Subject: Re: _Heliamphora_, again! Jan, I wrote: > > >...that I wonder why material of this type was never mentioned if it was > >collected. > ...and you answered: > "Never mentioned"? Several collections... I know that material from Ilu was mentioned. However as far as I know never any distinct characters of those collections were mentioned. > > >The plant we think is a hybrid ("spec. 2") between typical H. > >ionasii and spec. 1 looks much more like typical nutans. > >Of cause I can not be sure that typical nutans does not occur on > >Tramen/Ilu only from the fact that we did not find it. > We found LARGE UNIFORM populations of the plant you'd call H. nutans from Ilu/Tramen (sp.1) as well as LARGE UNIFORM populations of the typical H. ionasi. At a place populations of both types touched each other we found VERY FEW INDIVIDUALS showing INTERMEDIATE CHARACTERS OF VARIOUS DEGREE. Of cause nothing is sure except death, however I have little doubts that the intermediate plants are hybrids of at least F2-degree. These plants look more like H. nutans from Roraima or Kukenam than the spec. 1 plants do, regarding pitcher shape. > > re:_H.minor_ from Chimanta > >I know the H. minor from Chimanta as I grow one in my greenhouse > >and I find it impressive how much it changed from the Auyan-type (Do > >not get me wrong; I would'nt call it a new spec. :-). > > Do you think it does deserve varietal (or any other) rank, compared to > current use of ranks in _Heliamphora_? > > >However also in this case I wonder why never somebody seems to having had a > >close look on this "variety". > > "Never somebody"? Specimens... I never had any doubts about H. minor records from Chimanta. However I wonder why the following Characters never were mentioned, best to my knowledge: Hair inside the pitchers are very stiff and long (up to 3mm, similar to H. ionasii) instead of typical H. minor where Hair are barely visible or -sometimes- absent at all. Further the lid seems to have a shape distinct from typical H. minor (more helmet-shaped), however I do not dare to state this from the few pitchers I have at present. Unfortunately my plant has not flowered yet. > I think they would have recognized the difference between these and > _H.minor_ from Auyan if there was a significant one. Not significant??? The next days I'll take exact measurements of pitchers and send them to you via e-mail. regards Andreas ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 08:49:58 MST XSubject: Re: _Heliamphora_, again! >_P.agnata_ has very short spurs (a few mm) to the corolla and a yellow >palate, the corolla lobes being obtuse and not broadening towards the apex. >The "summer" leaves are generally not upturning at the margin, and they >look like the "winter" leaves. Jan: Have you received the pieces of the flower from my _P.agnata_ I sent in the mail? Barry ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 09:06:30 MST XSubject: Re: _Heliamphora_, again! Question to Australians (or anyone): I seem to recall that we have (or had) someone from one of the Australian Botanical Gardens or some such thing on this list. I'm trying to clear up a question on the plant _Ibicella lutea_, which is in the _Martyniaceae_. (Sometimes this plant is classed as _Martynia_ or _Proboscidea_). This plant originally came from S. America and is now a weed in some places---it is considered a "noxious weed" in Australia. So I'm hoping that some of our Australian colleagues have access to the plant, either live or in herbaria. If so, could you answer this question? In an old paper (in the '50's), van Eseltine states in his key to the _Martyniaceae_ that _Ibicella_ is characterised by a calyx which has five completely separate lobes. _Martynia_ shares this characteristic. In contrast, _Proboscidea_ has a calyx with the five lobes connate to produce a palmate-lobed calyx incised to the base, below the flower. Could anyone verify this? There's a rather bad drawing of _I.lutea_ in Juniper, Robins, and Joel's book showing a connate calyx. But this book also mistakenly claims the plant originates in Mexico/Southern California, where it only occurs as a naturalized weed. I'm trying to find seed of this plant, which is a candidate for being considered a CP. Barry ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 20:59:06 +0100 Subject: _Heliamphora_, never_ending? Andreas: >These (...i.e. "spec.2"...) plants look more like H. nutans >from Roraima or Kukenam than the spec. 1 plants do, regarding pitcher >shape. Again, why wouldn't you call "spec.1" _H.nutans_ (maybe a new var.)? Is it just because some of the putative hybrids of this with _H.ionasii_ (="spec.2") do resemble "typical _H.nutans_" even more closely? How then, if at least some of these "hybrids" were indeed nothing else but _H.nutans_ (_var.nutans_, possibly with fewer individuals in the Ilu-range)? >I never had any doubts about H. minor records from Chimanta. However >I wonder why the following Characters never were mentioned, best to >my knowledge: > >Hair inside the pitchers are very stiff and long (up to 3mm, similar to H. >ionasii) instead of typical H. minor where Hair are barely visible or >-sometimes- absent at all. Let me contribute a bit to your knowledge: STEYERMARK writes (p.312, in his key): "8. Pubescent upper interior face of the pitcher (excluding the basal ring of hairs) with some or all of the hairs elongated to 2-5 mm and scattered or relatively distant from each other, or deciduous over a glabrous surface" The two species described by this phrase are _H.ionasii_ (!) and _H.minor_ (_f.minor_). Other references to the hairiness of _H.minor_ are on pp. 310, 311 (_H.m.f.laevis_), & c. This is just the opposite of "never mentioned", isn't it? >Further the lid seems to have a shape distinct from typical H. minor (more >>helmet-shaped), however I do not dare to state this from the few pitchers I >>have at present. Also, "lid shape" seems to be of very limited use as a distinguishing character as its dimensions vary considerably (cf. STEYERMARK's table). >> I think they would have recognized the difference between these and >> _H.minor_ from Auyan if there was a significant one. > >Not significant??? > >The next days I'll take exact measurements of pitchers and send them >to you via e-mail. Biologically (not mathematically) significant, i.e. beyond variability within populations, not between individuals. Let me refer to EDGAR T. WHERRY (discussing the variability of _S.purpurea_): "Until some one has the opportunity to work out the significance of these variations, it seems undesirable to burden the literature with such a series of names" (BARTONIA 15:3, 1933). Kind regards Jan ################### From: ATLASD@delphi.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nepenthes Oddity (?) One of my nepenthes is producing a leaf with 2 midribs and 2 "proto-pitchers". The midribs are about 5mm apart. Is this a common occurrence? BTW, happy new year to everyone!. Doug ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:31:57 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Barry you wrote: > I'm trying to find seed of this plant, which is a candidate for being > considered a CP. I was offered seeds of this plant a few times by various people, however I was never interested as I m specializing in Nepenthes and Heliamphora. I ll have a look for seeds if you re interested. Let me just know your current snail-mail adress and if I m offered seeds again I'll send you some. All the best Andreas ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 11:16:14 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Nepenthes Oddity (?) > One of my nepenthes is producing a leaf with 2 midribs and 2 > "proto-pitchers". The midribs are about 5mm apart. Is this a common > occurrence? Is this only a single leaf or does the plant behave like this with all leaves? If it's only a single leaf it's most likely just a growth disturbance. However if it produces such leaves regulary or always it's likely to be a mutation. I've heared that a double-pitchered N. rafflesiana was once found in Kinabalu Park with all the leaves double pitchered, however I do not know if this isn't just a fairy tale. Andreas ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 09:55:13 MST XSubject: Re: Nepenthes Oddity (?) >I was offered seeds of this plant a few times by various people, >however I was never interested as I m specializing in Nepenthes and >Heliamphora. I ll have a look for seeds if you re interested. Let me just >know your current snail-mail adress and if I m offered seeds again I ll >send you some. Andreas, my snail-mail address is listed below. If you ever hear about seed from this plant (_Ibicella lutea_) please inform me. So far I've been on a trail of misidentified plants, with everyone growing related plants mistaking them for _Ibicella_ when in fact the plants are _Proboscidea_. I'm running out of ideas... Barry Meyers-Rice Steward Observatory University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 USA P.S. Incidentally, a bit of checking in the literature verifies that in California and Australia, where _I.lutea_ occurs as an introduced weed, the calyx lobes are completely separate from each other. Anything with fused sepals is not _I.lutea_. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 10:00:08 MST XSubject: Re: Nepenthes Oddity (?) Andreas As we speak, the plant is being propagated in vitro at Atlanta Botanical Gardens in Georgia, I believe. It is not yet available for distribution. I do not believe anyone in the U.S. is specializing in _Sarracenia_ using in vitro, although the people who do in vitro work in the U.S. are certainly working on the genus to propagate them, especially the rare taxa. I could get you their addresses if you wish. The two most active that I know of are Ron Gagliardo and Bob Hanrahan. Barry ################### From: Oliver T Massey(CFS) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 17:06:32 EST Subject: CP organizations info Barry: Thought I'd send you and anyone interested the info you requested for our CP club here in the bay area -(no that's not SF Bay) :). ____________________________ Tampa Bay Carnivorous Plant Club 712 E. Caracas St. Tampa, Fl. 33603-2329 Dues/Subscription $12.00 U.S. Membership benefits: Trappings (bimonthly newsletter), trading post, field trips, plant sales Meetings: monthly, USF botanical gardens, 2nd Wednesday of the month Profile: local enthusiasts looking to expand Revised: January, 1994 Complementary copy of the newsletter available upon request. -- For those already requesting a copy - it should be in the mail shortly. Good growing, Tom Massey@hal.fmhi.usf.edu ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 09:22:18 +0800 Subject: Re: Nepenthes Oddity (?) >>One of my nepenthes is producing a leaf with 2 midribs and 2 >>"proto-pitchers". The midribs are about 5mm apart. Is this a >>common occurrence? You don't perhaps live near Love Canal do you? R. ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 09:33:28 +0100 Subject: fragments received Barry, >>_P.agnata_ has (...) >Jan: Have you received the pieces of the flower from my _P.agnata_ >I sent in the mail? Now (yesterday) I have received them. It looks very much like _P.agnata_. Is the spur always 4 mm long? There is no real (bulging) palate in the corolla tube, is it? Jan ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 09:34:17 MST XSubject: fragments received Tom: Thanks for the info re Tampa Bay CP club. I love the name of the bimonthly newsletter ``Trappings''! About how many pages do you expect it will total in a year? 6? 30? 100? ********************* Another call going out for information on CP societies... If you have complete information on a society that would be great. If you have an address to a group to which you don't belong, I could write the society. I just need addresses! Information requested... Society name: Publication: Name, approximate number of pages/annually, language of pub. Other benefits: (seedbanks, plant sales, bookstore, etc) Meeting frequency: A sentence or two profile of club: Subscription rate: Address: I already have info on ICPS,ACPS,BACPS,PNCPC,VCPS,CPS of NSW, AFDPC (french) IPS (Japan),NZCPS,TBCPS, although several of these are quite incomplete. Surely there are Brit groups, German groups,or ANY European groups! So far for the European Community all I've got so far is the address to the Ping study group and a French group that may be defunct.... Barry ################### From: Oliver T Massey(CFS) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 15:06:40 EST Subject: Re: newsletter Barry: >>I love the name of the bimonthly newsletter ``Trappings''! About how many pages do you expect it will total in a year? 6? 30? 100?>>> Thanks, I'll pass your compliment along. At present, it looks like perhaps 18-20 pages a year. I'll send you a copy. The "trading post" will also be open for others who want to list plants. On another note, -- last night the county fair asked us to participate in this year's horticultural exhibits (set for Feb 4th-17th!). We are now scrounging around trying to identify any of our plants that don't look too grungy. (That is the proper botanical term for dormant, right?) So far we're thinking about a 300 gallon terrarium with Nepenthes and a demonstration bog garden. The terrarium has locking sliding glass doors, and some of our members have spare lights. Security may be a concern, as might temperature. Anyone with experience or ideas about things we might put together in two weeks, we'd appreciate your suggestions. Good growing, Tom Massey@hal.fmhi.usf.edu ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 13:24:30 MST XSubject: Re: newsletter >a 300 gallon terrarium with Nepenthes and a demonstration bog garden. >The terrarium has locking sliding glass doors, and some of our members >have spare lights. Security may be a concern, as might temperature. >Anyone with experience or ideas about things we might put together in two >weeks, we'd appreciate your suggestions. Tom: This sounds like a fun project, as long as you get several people involved. For one person it might just be a lot of work! I think you will make your job a whole lot easier if you remember that you just need an environment that your plants can survive in for two weeks, for the duration of the fair, instead of a really nice arrangement in which they'd grow well over a long time. Unfortunately, if security or nighttime temperatures may be a problem, the easiest thing to do might be to put all the plants in a big flat and take them home every night. Whenever I make a new terrarium arrangement, I always let it run for a few days without plants, during which I determine the temperature extremes during the night and day. Barry ################### From: "ANDREW BROOME: NZDRI" Date: 14 Jan 1994 10:05:13 +1200 Subject: Info on CP Clubs... Barry, > I already have info on ... NZCPS ... If you send me the info you have (and the info you want) I could try and fill in the gaps for the NZ group (of which I am not a member but would seriously consider becoming one). It's probably only a phone call away from here, assuming you have a recent contact phone number or address... Andrew. ################### From: kirk martin <98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 15:12:26 PST Subject: heliamphora question? Just glanced at a few CP books I picked up from our Univ. library and read that heliamphora has no digestive enzymes but rather uses microbial action to break down the prey. Was wondering if the type or types of bacteria were establ ished and whether or not a plant had to be "seeded" with the correct bacteria in order to function? Also wondered if the bacteria worked as a group effort or if it was a single organism. If this is common knowledge, I apologize but I haven't had a chance to review any journals yet. I'm anxious to get growing since it has been unseasonably warm in washington but know how fast the weather can change. Is the postal system equipped in any way to keep plants alive now or should I wait until March? Thanks, Kirk W. Martin 1100 Vanarsdol St. Clarkston Wa. 99403 509 758-4854 ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 18:39:23 -0800 Subject: Re: heliamphora question? wait untill april or come to the seattle area and pick out the plant you want _Heliamphora_ don't really like frost! kevin ################### From: carnipla@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 02:15:41 EST Subject: Introduction Good Evening: To start with the basics, I'd like to thank Rick Walker for his assistance. It has been a pretty steep learning curve, but I think I'm there. My name is Tom Johnson and I reside in Glendale, a suburb of Los Angeles. I've been growing CP with varying levels of intoxication since the mid 1970s. I enjoy all CP, but my favorites are Pings, Utrics, and Nepenthes. I just completed construction of a 10 ft by 10 ft plastic covered greenhouse. So i'm hoping to enjoy the rewards of greenhouse cultivation this summer--assuming that the plastic doesn't melt in the heat. I grow too many of my plants under lights and welcome the opportunity to grow Nepenthes taller than 12", and without the burned upper leaves. I am also the ICPS Seddbank coordinator. At present, the Seedbank has an excellent selection of Sarracenia seed. But alas, Nepenthes seed is sadly lacking. I plan to put the seedbank list on the network. Inquiries are welcome. I have a Heliamphora nutans threatening to flower and am looking for pollen for the first flower. Also, does anyone grow or know of someone who grows U. campbelliana or U. jamesoniana? I presently have small pants of U. asplundii for trade. Tom ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 13:24:16 +0100 Subject: welcome Tom, >Good Evening: You meant, good morning, didn't you? OK, OK, just a Kraut's joke 8-) Welcome on board! Kind regards from the old world Jan ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 14:41:47 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: welcome > Tom, > >Good Evening: > > You meant, good morning, didn't you? > OK, OK, just a Kraut's joke 8-) > > Welcome on board! > Kind regards from the old world > Jan Guten Morgen Jan, looks like in some parts of the old world a 'good morning' starts at 14:30. :-) Mahlzeit, Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland Electronics Lab. jmh@tko.vtt.fi | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512230 ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 13:59:43 +0100 Subject: Re: heliamphora question? Kirk, you wrote: >(...)that heliamphora has no digestive enzymes but rather uses microbial >action >to break down the prey. This is true for the 4 eastern spp., only. Quite recently, JAFFE, MICHELANGELI & al. (1992) have demonstrated _H.tatei_ to *have* digestive enzymes (& wax scales...). All _Heliamphorae_ seem to have surfactants which cause the prey (ants) to drown faster in the pitcher fluid than in the water of nearby bromeliads or ponds. Kind regards Jan ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 14:15:12 +0100 Subject: Re: welcome >Guten Morgen Jan, Tach Michael, >looks like in some parts of the old world a 'good morning' starts >at 14:30. :-) Not yet (it was 13:24, anyway!) ;-) I *received* Tom's mail in the morning. Good (Friday) afternoon to you all! Jan ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:52:20 GMT+1 Subject: seed germination Some time ago I bought quite a lot of "tuberous" Drosera seeds from Allen Lowrie. Unfortunately germination rate was extremely low (almost zero) though I've trated them with giberellic acid. Does anybody know how to break seed dormancy with this group of sundews really efficiently? best regards Andreas ################### From: Oliver T Massey(CFS) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 11:22:51 EST Subject: Re: Introduction Tom Johnson: >>I've been growing CP with varying levels >>of intoxication since the mid 1970s. Welcome aboard, but who is intoxicated, you or your CP - or both together? That roach liqueur is heady stuff! :) Putting the ICPS seedbank on the network is a great idea, looking forward to it. For your greenhouse, I'm assuming you used the UV stabilized plastic. Here in Florida the UV will last at least 3+ years, while the standard plastic fragments very, very quickly. Good growing florida Tom Massey@hal.fmhi.usf.edu ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 10:06:40 MST XSubject: Re: Introduction >Some time ago I bought quite a lot of "tuberous" Drosera seeds from >Allen Lowrie. Unfortunately germination rate was extremely low >(almost zero) though I've trated them with giberellic acid. >Does anybody know how to break seed dormancy with this group of >sundews really efficiently? Andreas: I have no advice for you on this, but a few thoughts which perhaps our xerophytically inclined colleague M.Chamberland can destroy. I get the impression that the seeds of plants which grow in seasonally very dry climates (like the desert plants of Arizona or Western Australia) are very slow to germinate. Apparently they are very cautious about germinating, being afraid to germinate during a dry season (sorry for being so anthropomorphic). I usually do not try to grow tuberous _Drosera_ from seed for precisely this reason, although I have had excellent luck with a few species I've ordered. These few species were ones I ordered because I had heard they were ready germinators, namely _D.huegelii, menziesii basifolia, neesii neesii, subhirtella subhirtella_. Of course the _D.peltata_ subspecies are also easy germinators... I have thought that perhaps a fire treatment would be good for tuberous _Drosera_ to encourage germination... >For your greenhouse, I'm assuming you used the UV stabilized plastic. Here in >Florida the UV will last at least 3+ years, while the standard plastic >fragments very, very quickly. For those with an unlimited budget, have you seen those sheets of lexan being produced? This stuff is beautiful! Very hard, very strong, very clear. It seems to have all the advantages of glass, but it won't break in a hailstorm. The only problem is the cost. Tom, what kind of cooling are you using? With a relatively small greenhouse like yours, it will have a small thermal inertia. It will tend to get very cold at night and very hot during the day, with much wider extremes than you get outside the greenhouse. You'll need a cooling and heating system and thermostats... Barry ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:18:10 +0800 Subject: Re: seed germination >>Some time ago I bought quite a lot of "tuberous" Drosera seeds from >>Allen Lowrie. Unfortunately germination rate was extremely low >>(almost zero) though I've trated them with giberellic acid. >> >>Does anybody know how to break seed dormancy with this group of >>sundews really efficiently? I've only grown D. peltata from seed, but in that case I just planted them, and they came up like little weeds on their own, no pre-treatment was required. I've never heard of tuberous *seed* being particularly hard to deal with. The tubers are another story though. Robert ################### From: Earl Nishiguchi Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 8:18:42 HST Subject: Re: Introduction On the subject of Utrics and Helamphora: Do these require dormancy? My two Utrics (sanderana? and pub?) slowly 'disappeared'. They were doing great and the next thing I knew they were gone. Am interested in Helamphora but have the impression that they like cooler places and wouldn't do good in Hawaii... Earl ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 10:27:06 +0800 Subject: Re: Introduction >>On the subject of Utrics and Helamphora: >>Do these require dormancy? My two Utrics (sanderana? and pub?) slowly >>'disappeared'. They were doing great and the next thing I knew they >>were gone. Am interested in Helamphora but have the impression that they >>like cooler places and wouldn't do good in Hawaii... Some utrics require dormancy, and others do not. Sandersonii doesn't seem to. pubescens probably doesn't either, but in my experience, is tough to grow. Mine almost died until I finally got it stabilized, and now it's slowly coming back. H. supposedly do like high light, low heat, environments, which is tough to come by. However I think they will tolerate up to 80 degrees or so. For you, a hybrid might be a better deal, as the hybrids seem VERY vigorout compared to the species, which are about as slow as molasses in winter. Typically you see H. which are almost completely green, because no one can give them the light they need to color up w/out an undesireable rise in temperature. Robert ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 11:32:01 MST Subject: Re: Introduction Sounds like your two plants, _U.sandersonii_ and _U.pubescens_, probably have died on you. They do not go dormant. Perhaps you let them frost? Perhaps they got some salt in their soil? I don't know what elevation you're on at the islands, so I don't know how cold or how salty your area is. Gordon Snelling occasionally has spontaneous deaths in his collection, for no obvious reason. Certainly not due to oversights in his otherwise excellent cultural method. I am becoming convinced that his air, i.e. Los Angeles, is a contributing factor. Maybe salt in your air, Earl? B ################### From: Oliver T Massey(CFS) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 13:55:40 EST Subject: Re: Introduction >>Am interested in Helamphora but have the impression that they >>like cooler places and wouldn't do good in Hawaii... Second hand info from a few people who grow Heliamphora - the difficulty _may_ be over rated. At least one grower reported great success growing under ligths in a terrarium setup in an airconditioned home. Cool and bright do seem very consistent recommendations, I have heard that the maximum high temp is about 72F. I have H. minor now, -- hope I don't jinx myself by saying that right now its doing fine. florida Tom ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 10:59:44 +0800 Subject: Re: Introduction >>>>Am interested in Helamphora but have the impression that they >>>>like cooler places and wouldn't do good in Hawaii... >> >>Second hand info from a few people who grow Heliamphora - the >>difficulty _may_ be over rated. I'll second that. The genus isn't difficult, but it's slow, which encourages fiddling with the plant, which encourages an early death. Robert ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 18:18:33 -0800 Subject: Re: Introduction > I have a Heliamphora nutans threatening to flower and am looking for pollen > for the first flower. > Tom Hi guy its nice to see your introduction up on the list today. your old friend Andrew Marshall is in the Same boat you are with his _H. nutans_ maby you should think about calling him. his new phone number is 1-206-431-5448. he also wants his other trading partners to know that he has several _Heliamphora_ for sale or trade. Barry Please ignore my post from yesterday. when i reread your message i found the referance to the ping group. The meeting schedule for P.N.W.C.P.C. in 1994 is as follows. 04-09-94 Seattle Wa. U.S.A. at the home of Tom Kahl 06-25-94 Everett Wa. U.S.A. at the home of Kevin Snively 08-06-94 Vancouver B.C. Canada at the home of David Wong meeting start at noon and run till three o'clock due to recent events in Canada David may cancle the meeting at his house. good luck and good growing everyone kevin s. ################### From: carnipla@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 22:56:05 EST Subject: Re: Unknown subject Barry--You're absolutely right about the greenhouse extremes. This winter has been mild, so I have not run the heater. The temperatures have rarely dropped below 50 F. During the day, the temperatures in the greenhouse soar to the high 90s and above, but then the ambient temperatures have been in the 80s this week. I have a small swamp cooler and a fan. The greenhouse is covered with two layers of 6 mil UV resistant plastic. This is topped off with with shadecloth. I also plan to add a misting system. And I am concerned about this summer. Hopefully, I'll be able to make adjustments as I go along. I've had good success with Lowrie's tuberous Drosera seed. I plant it in August in a dry and let it soak up some of the heat. I start watering when the weather cools down. The seeds will germinate outside where the temperatures rarely dip below 45 F. I am of the opinion that heat may inhibit germination. I believe that the seed may be thrown off schedule by the shift of seasons. I do much better germinating seeds from my collection. Although I would say that my success has not been intoxicating. My difficulties arise in setting tubers at the end of the growing season. Any comments? Tom ################### From: carnipla@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 23:15:32 EST Subject: Re: Introduction Dear Kevin, thanks for the info. I spoke to Andrew a few days ago and promised him pollen. Unfortunately, I'm way ahead of him. My flower has pushed free from its capsule and nears opening. Tom ################### From: Michael Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 23:48:42 -0700 (MST) XSubject: Re: Introduction On Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:10:11 -0800 Barry Meyers-Rice said: > >>Does anybody know how to break seed dormancy with this group of >>sundews really efficiently? > >Andreas: I have no advice for you on this, but a few thoughts which perhaps >our xerophytically inclined colleague M.Chamberland can destroy. > Actually I have had pretty good luck in my attempts with tuberous Drosera seed! :-) I got all mine from the seedbank though, so it's likely they were harvested from cultivated plants. >I get the impression that the seeds of plants which grow in seasonally >very dry climates (like the desert plants of Arizona or Western Australia) >are very slow to germinate. Apparently they are very cautious about On the other hand there are many quick-germinating desert plants. Not just annuals, some true xerophytes like Stapelia and Pachypodium have have quick-germinating, short-lived seeds. I believe the Australian climes inhabited by tuberous Drosera are radically different from our Arizona deserts. Just sprinkle some D. ramellosa seed out by Ajo and wait! :-) I wonder if fire plays any part in the germination of tuberosities? Michael ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 94 09:48:59 MST XSubject: Re: Introduction >Barry--You're absolutely right about the greenhouse extremes. This winter >has been mild, so I have not run the heater. The temperatures have rarely >dropped below 50 F. During the day, the temperatures in the greenhouse soar A Max-min thermometer is a very important thing for you to think about buying. >80s this week. I have a small swamp cooler and a fan. The greenhouse is Is your cooler giving you enough air changes? I think that for optimal efficiency, a swamp-cooler (also known as evaporative cooler) should be able to pump enough air into your greenhouse to replace the air three times each minute. At least that's what I've read. *************** David Crump of North Carolina called last night and gave me some information that I thought might be of interest. He has a lead on some _Aldrovanda_. Apparently, some Japanese concern has contacted the Pietrapaolos who contacted David. These Japanese have some _Aldrovanda_ and wish to trade it for some rare plants, namely _U.asplundii_, _U.campbelliana_, and _U.quelchii_. I told him that Tom Johnson (on this list) has some _U.asplundii_ to trade. I don't know if money would be acceptable instead of _Utrics_ in this trade, but if anyone is interested, David's phone number is 704-399-3045 (he gave me the ok to publish that). I will not vouch for the business or environmental ethics of any of the people in the above chain, although I have traded a few plants with David pleasantly enough. The Pietropaolo nursery apparently engages in certain activities I do not condone, involving wild plants, shovels, and plastic bags. I think David was surprised when I didn't get all excited about _Aldrovanda_. My low amount of interest is because this plant is very hard to grow. My understanding is that if you can't grow suspended aquatic Utrics well, don't even think about _Aldrovanda_! David also told me that very shortly after fertilizing his _Heliamphora_ with Miracid, they all died. I have heard this story a few other times. DON'T FERTILIZE YOUR HELIAMPHORA! At least, not with Miracid! Barry ################### From: "Gordon C. Snelling" <72203.127@CompuServe.COM> Date: 15 Jan 94 11:57:28 EST Subject: tuberous drosera re: the germination of tuberous drosera seed. I've had pretty good results with mine. The major key with these species is patience, I've had some species take a year or more to germinate. unfortunately I dont know of any tricks to speed this up.I generally just sow them and pretty much try to forget about them, I have noticed greater germination in the fall and winter months, with a better survival rate of the seedlings as well.if they germinate during thelate spring or summer the seedlings often appear not to produce tubers to get them thru their dormant period so keep the seedlings cool.another interesting thing i have seen a time or two is the apparent production of tubers with no first season abov the soil growth,ie; seed straight to tuber, pretty weird. they can be frustrating but they are worth the wait so be patient with them. ################### From: R Britt Date: Fri, 14 Jan 1994 10:38:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Introduction So just how fragile is _U.sandersonii_ to frost? Can it take some modest exposure to sub-freezing weather? -rdb ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 16 Jan 1994 13:57:41 GMT+1 Subject: Re: >... David also told me that very shortly after fertilizing his _Heliamphora_ > with Miracid, they all died. I have heard this story a few other times. > DON'T FERTILIZE YOUR HELIAMPHORA! At least, not with Miracid! I've no problems feeding my Heliamphoras and Nepenthes with a homebrewed fertilizer almost identical to Miracid. I feel that problems might arise when plants are overfertilized. Andreas ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Sun, 16 Jan 1994 14:24:53 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Unknown subject >... Although I would say that my success has not been intoxicating. My > difficulties arise in setting tubers at the end of the growing season. Any > comments? > As far as I know cool night temparatures are necessary for tuber production. Otherwise the plants are not able to store enough energy sufficient for tuber-production. Andreas ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Sun, 16 Jan 1994 10:25:12 -0800 Subject: Re: On Sun, 16 Jan 1994, Andreas Wistuba wrote: > >... David also told me that very shortly after fertilizing his > >_Heliamphora_ with Miracid, they all died. I have heard this > >story a few other times. DON'T FERTILIZE YOUR HELIAMPHORA! > >At least, not with Miracid! > > I've no problems feeding my Heliamphoras and Nepenthes with a > homebrewed fertilizer almost identical to Miracid. I feel that problems > might arise when plants are overfertilized. > > Andreas > i agree. i prefer to folier feed and find if the solution is kept so week you barely know it is there its safe for everything except _D. schizandra_ & seedlings of _D. regia_. krs ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 94 08:12:45 MST XSubject: Re: So, reports say 6.6 on the Richter scale hits L.A.....any damages out there? Barry . ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 18:51:35 GMT+1 Subject: tuberous drosera seed...again Thanks for all the advises. My problem is that as I tried to sow these seeds in vitro I have to germinate them before the agar in the tubes dries too much. Therefore I cannot wait a year or longer until germination occurs. Andreas ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 20:04:13 +0100 Subject: Re: tuberous drosera seed...again Andreas, >My problem is that as I tried to sow these seeds in vitro I have to >germinate them before the agar in the tubes dries too much. Therefore I >cannot wait a year or longer until germination occurs. I think I know this problem. I circumvent this by using agar at very low concentrations (0.7% Sigma agar, which is close to the point of no polymerization: you'll have to try this out with your lot of agar). This tends to prolong the drying process (especially on the surface of the media) considerably. Also, it is preferable to use larger amounts (volume) of media (better surface/volume quotient) for germinating, i.e. long term i.v. cultures. I can keep my vials unopened for one year without killing the plants by desiccation (OK, sometimes there come these nasty microbes...). Once growing, the plants should be "repotted" more frequently because of release of phenolic metabolites into the media (not so with species forming hibernacula: here, the metabolites tend to induce and prolong dormancy and may even be beneficial to the resting bud, but be sure to give them new media as soon as the first new leaves are formed!). Of course, there are still some species which do not germinate at all or not every year. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 11:50:16 -0800 Subject: Re: Introduction > So just how fragile is _U.sandersonii_ to frost? Can it take > some modest exposure to sub-freezing weather? I have some in my greenhouse which gets down to 50F regularly, and to 45F on exceptionally cold nights. U. sandersonii survives, but will not flower under these conditions. It definitely does best indoors under lights, with temps 60-80F. -- Rick ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 16:47:15 +0800 Subject: Re: L.A. burns to the ground. Transplants from parts East flee for their lives. Water shortage resolves itself as customer base shrinks.... Federal gov't cecedes California from the U.S. as a place `too dangerous to live.' Quality of life in CA goes up. Disclaimer: as you might guess, the above is a parody. L.A. is screwed, but deaths are still low. Aftershocks of 5.x and greater continue to roll in. Few residents are prepared, major freeways have blown chunks, but overall, we're reaping the benefit of our building codes. No, I live in N. Cal, and we had our big one a few years ago. Robert ################### From: R Britt Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 17:37:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: The worst part will follow the meteor storm tonight...when the spores generate..... ################### From: rphjt@minyos.xx.rmit.EDU.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 15:33:42 DST Subject: Re: Tuberous Sundews >re: the germination of tuberous drosera seed. I've had pretty good >results with mine. The major key with these species is patience, I've >had some species take a year or more to germinate. unfortunately I >dont know of any tricks to speed this up.I generally just sow >them and pretty much try to forget about them, I have noticed greater >germination in the fall and winter months, with a better survival rate >of the seedlings as well.if they germinate during thelate spring or >summer the seedlings often appear not to produce tubers to get them >thru their dormant period so keep the seedlings cool. I've had a lot of success with local species - but none with WA ones. Whether this is because of poor quality/short-lived seeds or not I don't know. Has anyone tries "scarifying" tuberous sundew seeds with warm/hot/boiling water? Maybe they are slow to absorb water and need a hurry-up? (I've just had success in germinating Sturt Desert Pea seeds this way - the greatly swollen seeds were the ones that germinated (very quickly!) whilst the others didn't..) John Taylor ################### From: "Gordon C. Snelling" <72203.127@CompuServe.COM> Date: 17 Jan 94 22:43:58 EST Subject: shake & bake Greetings from a some what shakey southern California.I'd like to say all's well but as a great many of you have no doubt seen we got hit pretty h hard.from looking at hit it appears s.cal. has been wiped out but thats not the case,all the damege you've seen is confined to a relatively small area.I am app.30 mi e. of the epicenter and although I experienced a ]fairly respectable jolt i've ridden out worse.there was absolutely no damag to my place.and from what i was able to see today the e . san gabriel vally area came thru in pretty good shape.I'm sure this may be in some part to the geology of the area here but i think it also has to do with the type of of rupture that set this thing off.as yet i have not felt any of the after shocks but i'm sure that will change. Barry, I'm really sorry you missed this one it would truly reaffirmed you desire not to visit this place, but hey who needs Disneyland? when you've got mother nature. must be off, all the best Gordon ################### From: Earl Nishiguchi Date: Mon, 17 Jan 94 23:55:45 HST Subject: Re: Introduction > Sounds like your two plants, _U.sandersonii_ and _U.pubescens_, probably > have died on you. They do not go dormant. Perhaps you let them frost? > Perhaps they got some salt in their soil? I don't know what elevation > you're on at the islands, so I don't know how cold or how salty your > area is. > > Gordon Snelling occasionally has spontaneous deaths in his collection, for > no obvious reason. Certainly not due to oversights in his otherwise excellent > cultural method. I am becoming convinced that his air, i.e. Los Angeles, is > a contributing factor. Maybe salt in your air, Earl? > B > Barry, you may be right... I live only about 3 miles from the ocean...so salt in the air is a possibility. I put my vft in the refrigerator last month... put them in ziplocks with just a few peat moss (dry). This is my first attempt at putting a plant in the refrigerator. Earl ################### From: Earl Nishiguchi Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 0:00:29 HST Subject: Re: Introduction > >>Am interested in Helamphora but have the impression that they > >>like cooler places and wouldn't do good in Hawaii... > > Second hand info from a few people who grow Heliamphora - the > difficulty _may_ be over rated. At least one grower reported great > success growing under ligths in a terrarium setup in an airconditioned > home. Cool and bright do seem very consistent recommendations, I have > heard that the maximum high temp is about 72F. > > I have H. minor now, -- hope I don't jinx myself by saying that right > now its doing fine. > > florida Tom I guess that leave me out...max of 72F. I can get that temp only in January ...I can't afford airconditioning (we pay the highest electrical rates here at 16 cents or so per kilowatt). earl ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 10:58:07 GMT Subject: Clianthus OK - its nothing to do with CP, but John Taylor mentioned germination of Sturt's Desert Pea (or Clianthus formosus, or Clianthus dampieri). Does everyone know this plant - a legume with spectacular red flowers, but difficult to grow. The seedsmen either say sow and don't transplant, or attempt to graft it as a small seedling onto Colutea arborescens (Bladder Senna, another more robust legume). I have no trouble germinating them - nick the seed coat with a knife, soak until they swell, and away they go. In all my attempts, I have only had one plant flower - it was on its own roots after carefully potting on into about a 6 inch pot. I have tried the grafting technique - I can get the grafts to take, but they hardly grow subsequently. Does anyone have any techniques with this plant? Its root system seems to mainly be a taproot - it quickly reaches the bottom of any pot with very little fibrous root. Someone suggested sow in very tall pot, soak, and then don't water again! ################### From: carnipla@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 94 23:19:56 EST Subject: Re: Shake and Bake CA Barry, Thanks for your concern. The wake up call was a little abrupt. My plants were unharmed except for a power outage most of the day. The worst part of the earthquake was my dog. The quake quite unnerved him and he lost control in several places about the house, all of which I found in the dark. So the ten minutes after the earthquake were spent repeatedly washing my feet and threatening the dog. The aftershocks were surprising frequent, but after a while I became inured. Since I work in Sylmar, the epicenter, I did not venture to the salt mine, so I had an enjoyable day in the sun working on my greenhouse--now earthquake certified. Tom ################### From: kirk <98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 04:14:58 PST Subject: Re: Shake and Bake CA Glad everything seems to be okay down in LA. There was alot of damage and I did have some close friends living in Sherman Oaks(correction do have). Just so people in LA know they are blocking phone lines going into LA but it should be fairly easy to call out: according to the news. Careful everyone Kirk in Washington ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 13:52:22 +0100 Subject: Re: Shake and Bake CA Tom, you wrote: > so I had an enjoyable day in the sun working on my >greenhouse--now earthquake certified. Nice to hear the earthquake did not too much harm to you (besides the dog thing...) and your plants. If you have _Darlingtonia_ ("cobra plant"), is it mutated to "rattlesnake plant" now? ;-) Kind regards Jan ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 14:51:29 GMT+1 Subject: sowing seeds in vitro Jan, thankyou for your hint. You wrote: >... I circumvent this by using agar at very low > concentrations (0.7% Sigma agar, which is close to the point of no > polymerization: you'll have to try this out with your lot of agar)... Which one of Sigma's agars do you use? Did you try this also with petri-dish cultures? I'm asking because I find petri dishes much more convenient and fast to handle however I did not dare to sow seeds into dishes because dessication is much quicker normally than in glass vials closed with foil and Parafilm. Andreas ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 16:45:39 +0100 Subject: Re: sowing seeds in vitro Andreas: >Which one of Sigma's agars do you use? Sigma agar No. A-7002, Lot 57F-0170 (rather dirty stuff, but it works for me). >Did you try this also with petri-dish cultures? Yes, but they must be sealed carefully (tightly) with parafilm. >I'm asking because I find petri dishes much more convenient and fast to handle >>however I did not dare to sow seeds into dishes because dessication is much >>quicker normally than in glass vials closed with foil and Parafilm. Indeed, petri dishes are tricky for seeds (especially for the slow ones). But you can "repot" seeds from nearly dried (i.e. NOT dry!) dishes to fresh ones, and sometimes they germinate shortly after this step! I can only state this for Lentibulariaceae, however (0 experience with other cp: you'll have to try). Kind regards Jan ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 08:50:29 MST XSubject: Re: sowing seeds in vitro >I put my vft in the refrigerator last month... put them in ziplocks with >just a few peat moss (dry). This is my first attempt at putting a plant >in the refrigerator. Earl: Good luck. My great shame as a CPer is that for all the plants I grow, I simply am no good with VFTs! Sure, they grow year after year, but for some reason they don't flourish. My buddy, Paul McMillan, is a wizard with this plant. All his plants produce traps with midribs longer than 3 cm, some bright red, others all green. Beautiful. I visited Paul McMillan this weekend to install a watering system for him, and he showed me what his collection is up to. This man is simply a maestro when it comes to VFTs and _Drosophyllum_. This guy can do anything with the latter, and they thrive. For example, he decided to grow a single plant in a big pot---in violation of all the rules he usually grows dozens of plants in community pots (conventional wisdom says the plants inhibit growth of each other). So he took a 2" tall seedlings, pulled it out of the soil, and planted in a bigger pot (conventional wisdom says these will die with any sort of root disturbance). Did I mention he ***washed the soil from the roots?!*** So now this plant is huge, a leaf spread diameter of 35 cm, several crowns, leaves easily 7mm wide at the base, a stem 3cm in diameter. When I got home I looked at my _Drosophyllum_ which I'm usually proud of, and got disgusted! >Barry, I'm really sorry you missed this one it would truly reaffirmed >you desire not to visit this place, but hey who needs Disneyland? >when you've got mother nature. Well Gordon, as you know I'd like to thrill to an earthquake, but 6.6 is a little rich maybe even for my adrenalin-addicted body. This may be kind of weird to wonder about, when people have died there and so much property damage has occured, but.... Well, I bet a 6.6 earthquake has to be hell on CP that don't like root disturbance. I expect a lot of LA _Heliamphora_ will be dying. Also, a lot of tuberous _Drosera_ will suffer when the dropper shoots are severed... Barry ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 18:34:50 GMT+1 Subject: Re: sowing seeds in vitro >... I can only > state this for Lentibulariaceae... > By the way, which sterilization procedure do you use for seeds? ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 13:12:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Sigma Chemical Company Hi Folks, For people interested in using Sigma reagents in plant tissue culture don't give up. They are a large company and give excellent customer service IMHO, but they just want to limit their liability. As a for instance, during the late 1980's the chemical dextran sulfate was reported to cure/improve the condition of AIDS patients. Sigma sold dextran sulfate for use in molecular biology research, but not drug use. Fearing individuals were obtaining dextran sulfate for this purpose we all got calls inquiring as to its intended use. While not debating ethics here, they were just protecting themselves from the US legal system. I just called the Sigma customer service line and told them I was thinking of setting up a plant tissue culture lab this summer, that this was not related to my work (where I do use Sigma reagents), and could I order tissue culture stuff from them. The answer was fine, no problem, we accept VISA and Mastercard, and do you want to go ahead and set up an account now or just use a misc. small order account. The other possiblity is that this person had a good weekend ;-). So if your're interested call customer service, not ordering! I do think they will get pissed if you try and pull something on them, but labs come in all shapes and sizes. Maybe problems come in down the line, but this wasn't difficult. Jeff P.S. no I didn't set up an account and any good beginners text for plant T.C.? ################### From: phil mueller Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 21:49:30 CST Subject: Re: Clianthus I have ordered some Clianthus formosus seed and hope to have some luck with them. However, I had a conversation with a New Zealander from the list about another species. He called it the "kaka beak". I lost my correspondense about it, but as I recall the flower was all red. I would like to find a source for seeds. Being from NZ it might be easier to grow in the states. -- Phil Mueller hi23ahg@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu Tulane Graduate School Xavier Univ. of LA History Dept. ################### From: rphjt@minyos.xx.rmit.EDU.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 15:11:06 DST Subject: Re: Desert Peas >I have ordered some Clianthus formosus seed and hope to have >some luck with them. However, I had a conversation with a >New Zealander from the list about another species. He called >it the "kaka beak". I lost my correspondense about it, but as >I recall the flower was all red. I would like to find a source >for seeds. Being from NZ it might be easier to grow in the >states. Phil, the "kaka beak" (it's botanical name is Clianthus puniceus) is a close relative of the Sturt Desert Pea. It would appear that it is easier to grow judging by the cultivation details given in a book I have. 10" pots are recommended for it - hope my SDPs don't mind 4" ones... I'm afraid that I don't know of any seed suppliers. but I occassionally seen what I assume are kaka beaks being sold as SDPs - as you say, the lack of a "black" centre gives them away (my last SDP's black centre actually appears to be a very dark red/maroon sort of colour - I think...). John Taylor ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 10:29 GMT Subject: Re: Desert Peas After (partly) starting this 'off the subject' thread, I can add that I have grown plants of Clianthus puniceus from seed. This plant is sometimes known as the 'Lobster claw'. Unlike C. formosus, it is no trouble at all. Hopefully I will get my first flowers this spring. This is one of those plants which will just about survive out of doors in the UK in favourable locations, although mine are still indoors for safety. My seed came from Chiltern Seeds (UK). As well as the red, they offer a white form and a pink form. To get back onto the subject, I'm just looking through my Doug and Vivi Rowland (Bedford, UK) seed list. They specialise in cacti, succulents, CPs, other interesting things. I'll have to borrow my friend's CP book (Slack) to see which of their Drosera and Utricularia might be worth trying. Maybe I'll have another go at Nepenthes too - I germinated N. khasiana once, but they died in winter. The Rowlands have N. khasiana and N. madagascariensis - what kind of N. is the latter? Is it likely to be growable? ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 15:12:18 GMT+1 Subject: N. madagascariensis ... and N. madagascariensis - what kind of N. is the > latter? Is it likely to be growable? > N. madagascariensis is one of the lowland types. In nature it grows in swamps without shade (=It needs much light and warm temparature). It's surely none of the easier Nepenthes as it often suffers from fungal diseases which cause brown or red spotson the leaves not only in my collection. In fact it's the only Nepenthes which seems to be readily attacked by fungi. Andreas ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 16:40:09 +0100 Subject: Re: sowing seeds in vitro Andreas, >By the way, which sterilization procedure do you use for seeds? Still the good ole hypochlorite thing. Chlorox (Dan Klorix in Germany) 1:10 is perfect (killing them micro bastards!). Timing is quite important: there is no rule (you'll have to try it out, again...). I sterilize seeds until they just begin to bleach (not all species did germinate, however). Kind regards Jan ################### From: "MCCAFFERY, MICHAEL W" Date: 19 Jan 94 14:00:00 EST Subject: de-lurking After lurking on this server for sometime and taking part in the big group buy from Andreas, I should introduce myself. My name is Mike Mccaffery. I am 31 and employed as a lab technician (biologist, read Igor) in the Horticultural Sciences Dept at the University of Florida in Gainesville. I am married and have lived in Gainesville since 1986. My main plant interests (in no particular order) are carnivorous plants, waterlilies, and orchids. I have grown orchids and CPs since childhood; the waterlilies are a recent obsession. My CP collection consists of several Sarracenia sp and hybrids, some Drosera and a few Pinguicula - all of the above are in a peat-filled "bog" in my backyard. I also have some Nepenthes in my greenhouse; a few mature plants and several cuttings (courtesy of Andrew Marshall's generous offer). Most of my plants and information are from Clyde Bramblett has been very helpful to me. I have enjoyed the discussions on the network, especially on taxonomy, evolution and tissue culture. My thanks to all who have contributed to this great group. -mike ################### From: James Powell Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 14:02:06 -0500 Subject: gibberellic (sp) acid While cleaning up a closet, I found an old dusty bottle of gibberellic acid I had once purchased for some unknown reason. I mixed some up and sprayed a couple of plants, including a Heliamphora that had not been growing recently. The plant seems to have responded with a new spurt of growth. Is it my imagination or does this stuff actually work? It seems to smell a bit like alcohol - what is it? James. ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 21:18:34 +0100 Subject: Re: gibberellic (sp) acid James, >The plant seems to have responded with a new spurt of growth. Is it my >imagination or does this stuff actually work? It does indeed work. But be careful not to overdose especially with gibberellic acid! This one is particularly dangerous for plants (may cause severe malformation). >It seems to smell a bit like alcohol - what is it? It is most likely alcohol (gibberellic acid is somewhat hydrophobic, the free acid is solid at ambient temps). Happy growing! Jan ################### From: Bob Beer Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 12:46:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: gibberellic (sp) acid > It is most likely alcohol (gibberellic acid is somewhat hydrophobic, the > free acid is solid at ambient temps). I used it in powder form mixed with water. To me it smelled like apricots and mold. (Empirical observation!) ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 11:07:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: _D. adelae_ I've got 5 _D. adelae_ growing in 4" pots. They've done great but recently the main plants have really cut back on growth and the new leaves look stunted. About the same time new plants appeared off the older roots and are growing quickly. I'm planning on moving the plants up to 6" pots as soon as I get a new terrarium set up, but have other folks seen _D. adelae_ behave this way? Thanks. P.S. Welcome Mike! Jeff (in North Carolina) ################### From: Steve Marak Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 10:11:06 CST Subject: Clianthus (non-CP topic) For those interested in sources of the Clianthus mentioned, I found the following in my 1994 J.L. Hudson catalog (P.O. Box 1058, Redwood City, California, 94064 USA, catalog $1 US, no phone): Clianthus formosus (=Dampieri) $1.50 US "Stuart's Desert Pea', 'Glory Pea'. Magnificent trailing shrub to 4 feet, with clusters of large, bright scarlet shiny peculiarly shaped 3" long flowers with a black eye. Pinnate, silky grey-green foilage. Central Australia. Fast growing in poor sandy soils. Withstands down to 13 F (-10 C) for short periods, and less than 8 inches (20 cm) of rain per year. Must be grown in almost pure sand or very well-drained soil, and does not transplant well. In cold climates it is best grown grafted as a seedling onto the roots of C. puniceus or Colutea arborescens, making it much more adaptable and longer-lived." Clianthus puniceus $2.00 US "'Parrot's Beak', 'Red Kaka Beak', 'Kowhai-ngutu- kaka' (Maori name). Dense masses of crimson-red 3" long unusual flowers are suspended below the arching branches in spring and summer. Spreading, fast- growing shrub to 3-12 feet, and open habit and dark green, fern-like pinnate foliage. New Zealand. Much easier than C. formosus, it tolerates a wide range of soils, and stands frost to about 13 F. Good espaliered to display the blooms, which are filled with sweet nectar and attract birds. May flower the first year. The showiest and most early-known of N.Z. plants grown since 1775. Almost extinct in the wild, it is classed as endangered but is well-established in cultivation." A 1990 Chiltern's seed catalog listed C. formosus and 3 varieties of C. puniceus, but I don't have a current catalog for them. Steve SAMARAK@UAFSYSB.BITNET or SAMARAK@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU ################### From: James Powell Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 11:25:05 -0500 Subject: Re: _D. adelae_ >I've got 5 _D. adelae_ growing in 4" pots. They've done great but recently >the main plants have really cut back on growth and the new leaves look >stunted. About the same time new plants appeared off the older roots and are >growing quickly. I'm planning on moving the plants up to 6" pots as soon as I >get a new terrarium set up, but have other folks seen _D. adelae_ behave this >way? One of my plants is doing the same thing. It recently moved from outdoors in natural light to a basement terrarium under flourescent light. The last two leaves are sickly twisted little things, but a healthy new plant has appeared at the edge of the pot. I also noticed the main plant seems to have a flower shoot. Maybe yours is going to bloom also? James. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 10:09:38 MST XSubject: Re: _D. adelae_ >quickly. I'm planning on moving the plants up to 6" pots as soon as I get a >new terrarium set up, but have other folks seen _D. adelae_ behave this way? Jeff, yeah, sometimes this species will do this. It produces zillions of plantlets from the roots naturally, and sometimes the larger rosettes die back. It's kind of a messy plant. Oh, I found a place that has some nice selection of materials for those of you interested in greenhouses. Mainly a variety of thick, UV protected poly sheets, 6 mil etc. Also some greenhouse accessories. The company is A.M. Leonard 1-800-543-8955 Barry ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 09:49:35 +0800 Subject: Re: _D. adelae_ >>I've got 5 _D. adelae_ growing in 4" pots. They've done great but >>recently the main plants have really cut back on growth and the new >>leaves look stunted. About the same time new plants appeared off the >>older roots and are growing quickly. I'm planning on moving the >>plants up to 6" pots as soon as I get a new terrarium set up, but have >>other folks seen _D. adelae_ behave this way? Thanks. I just went through the same thing. I just seperated and repotted my plants and am hoping for the best. I'm sure they'll come back from the roots, as this plant is a weed. Mine were growing in dead, longgrain spaghnum, and I think the mix may have gone sour or something. R. ################### From: Earl Nishiguchi Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 15:09:22 HST XSubject: Re: _D. adelae_ > Oh, I found a place that has some nice selection of materials for those > of you interested in greenhouses. Mainly a variety of thick, UV protected > poly sheets, 6 mil etc. Also some greenhouse accessories. > > The company is A.M. Leonard > 1-800-543-8955 > > Barry I ordered from A.M. Leonard, some water meters, etc. and had no problems with them. Their prices are reasonable (compared to here in Hawaii, anyway). Earl ################### From: donb@coplex.coplex.com (Don Burden) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 19:50 EST Subject: CP Gibbrellic Acid: I would hesitate to use this on any healthy, growing plant. This is a growth hormone that typically causes a plant to produce a spurt of ugly, etiolated, and unnatural growth; and will weaken the plant to near-death if too much is used. It is commonly used for inducing seeds to germinate though. SNOW: It snowed 16 inches last Monday - this is a record! Temperature Tuesday went down to -25F (-32C), also a record low!. Mail couldn't get through and all highways in Kentucky were closed by the governor until today! Temperature will not be above freezing until Saturday. Pollen: On the orchids e-mail group someone explained how they store orchid pollen - Pollen is put on glass slides in a sealed container with silica gel on the bottom to absorb moisture, then the container is put in the refrigerator for two days. After that, the silica gel is removed and the pollen can then be stored in the freezer in a sealed container. The pollen remains viable for nearly a year. Drosera adelae: I grow mine in a shallow tray 2 inches deep. Nearly the whole surface is covered with plants. Soil is pure peat moss. Andreas Wistuba: Andreas will be posting to this CP group his new 1994 price list soon. I'll take all orders for U.S. growers. We are working on getting an order together for expected delivery next September. We have already finalized an order for May delivery, but everyone still has time to join our group order for the second shipment in September (or earlier). -- Don Burden New Albany, Indiana, USA donb@coplex.com ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 09:19:13 GMT+1 Subject: Re: CP > Gibbrellic Acid: > I would hesitate to use this on any healthy, growing plant. This is a > growth hormone that typically causes a plant to produce a spurt of > ugly, etiolated, and unnatural growth... This holds surely true in most cases. However I startet to experiment with GA a few years ago and it was possible to induce long shoots in Nepenthes. So it was possible to make cuttings from plants which usually grew as rosettes. > Pollen: > On the orchids e-mail group someone explained how they store orchid pollen... This sounds extremely interesting to me. Could you mail a copy of this comment to me and give me the e-mail adress of the orchid group. Does anybody know of any papers dealing on long-term storage of pollen? ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 08:21:25 MST Subject: silica >On the orchids e-mail group someone explained how they store orchid pollen - >Pollen is put on glass slides in a sealed container with silica gel on the >bottom to absorb moisture, then the container is put in the refrigerator for >two days. After that, the silica gel is removed and the pollen can then be >stored in the freezer in a sealed container. The pollen remains viable for >nearly a year. This is very interesting. I am surprised that the silica gel doesn't completely dessicate the pollen to such a degree that the pollen is killed. I would think that pollen has to be pretty sturdy stuff in order to survive, but not much in natural selection can prepare pollen for being sealed in a container of silica gel! Barry ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 16:57:14 GMT+1 Subject: 1994-pricelist, Andreas Wistuba Here is my new pricelist for 1994. Perhaps it's interesting for some of you. I'd be very glad if you would also give copies to cp-people interested in Nepenthes who are not in this list. HELIAMPHORA, NEPENTHES AND OTHER CARNIVOROUS PLANTS PRICELIST 1994 Andreas Wistuba Mudauer Ring 227 68259 Mannheim Tel.: 0621-705471 A.Wistuba@dkfz-heidelberg.de *=available summer 1994 @=grown from tissue culture; plants usually 5-10cm in diameter, depending on species. All prices are in DM Nepenthes -carunculata (Gunung Talang, Sumatra) 10cm 80,-@ -eymai (Gunung Lumut, Sulawesi) 7cm 70,-@ -gracilis 20,-@ -gracillima (Gunung Ulu Kali, blackish pitchers!!!) 60,-@ -gymnamphora 4cm 30,-*@ -khasiana 25,-@ -lowii (Gunung Mulu) 3-5cm 80,-*@ -lowii (Gunung Trusmadi) 3-5cm 80,-@ -macfarlanei (Gunung Ulu Kali) 30,-@ -madagascariensis 30,-@ -maxima 10cm 25,-@ -maxima (Highland, Sulawesi) wavy leaves 70,- -mirabilis (Kelam, West-Borneo) 25,- -mirabilis (Sulawesi) giant form 6cm 30,-@ -mirabilis ("Smilesii") 15,- !-muluensis (Gunung Mulu) 5-6cm 60,-*@ -pervillei 5-6cm 60,-*@ -rafflesiana 20,-@ !-rajah 5cm 70,-@ -reinwardtiana (green, Sumatra) 25,-@ -sanguinea 30,-@ -tentaculuta 40,- -thorellii 30,- -tobaica 30,- -tomoriana (Lampia, Sulawesi) 50,-@ -veitchii (Batu Lawi, Borneo, Highland) 5-8cm 70,-@ -veitchii (Sungai Samba, Borneo, Lowland) 5cm 80,-@ -ventricosa 20,-@ -viellardii 30,-@ Nepenthes Manmade Hybrids -maxima x stenophylla 25,- -(x"Mixta") x gracilis 20,-@ -ventricosa x dubia 30,-@ -ventricosa x khasiana 15,-* -ventricosa x maxima 20,-@ -ventricosa x spectabilis 25,-@ Heliamphora (pitchers 5-8cm) -heterodoxa 30,- -minor 40,- -tatei 180,- -nutans (Form from Tramen Tepui) (= spec. 1) 80,- -nutans (Tramen) x ionasii (= spec. 2) (Naturhybride) 80,- Heliamphora, Manmade Hybrids -heterodoxa x ionasii (own cross) 60,- -heterodoxa x minor (made by Thomas Carow) 50,- -heterodoxa x nutans (made by Thomas Carow) 30,- One of each: 1.) N. rafflesiana, N. Mixta x gracilis, N. mirabilis, N. khasian 60,- 2.) Heliamphora heterodoxa, H. heterodoxa x nutans, H. minor 80,- 3.) Heliamphora spec."2", H. heterodoxa x ionasi 100,- Cephalotus -follicularis 15,- Drosera -ramentacea 30,- -regia 25,- Darlingtonia -californica 30,- Best to my knowledge all plants are correctly labelled. If nevertheless a mistake happens and you receive a wrong labelled plant, I'll change that plant for the right one or you get your money back. Rooted cuttings (very limited supply): Nepenthes -alata (green) 15,- -ampullaria (green, red peristome) (Summer `94) 50,- -ampullaria (speckeled) (Summer `94) 50,- -ampullaria (big, green, hairy) 80,- -hirsuta 50,- -leptochila (Gunung Rajah) (Summer `94) 100,- -maxima (Rantepao, Sulawesi) small variety 50,- -mirabilis ("Winged") 40,- -mirabilis (New Guinea) 40,- -rhombicaulis (Sumatra) 30,- -tobaica (red) 60,- Nepenthes Natural Hybrids -trichocarpa (gracilis x ampullaria) 25,- If you re interested in any plants you may contact Don Burden who coordinates an order for early September. As I'm a "part time nursery" many plants will not beavailable in very large amounts. I d advise early ordering. If you want to order independent from this group buy please note that orders lower than DM 500 will be sent as scientific matter, because it s very time consuming to collect all the documents necessary to send plants officially. Special prices for the September-order are available on request from Don Burden or myself. ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 17:03:09 GMT+1 Subject: Re: silica Barry, you wrote: > This is very interesting. I am surprised that the silica gel doesn't > completely dessicate the pollen to such a degree that the pollen is > killed... In fact best to my knowledge a complete drying of the pollen is exactly what's necessary to conserve them by simply reducing life (=metabolism) to a minimum. The same might be achieved by storing pollen in liquid nitrogen (-196C). I think the critical steps are the procedures drying or freezing are done (fast or slow....). Andreas ################### From: M Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 09:56:14 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: silica On Fri, 21 Jan 1994 07:25:52 -0800 Barry Meyers-Rice said: >>On the orchids e-mail group someone explained how they store orchid >>pollen - Pollen is put on glass slides in a sealed container with >>silica gel on the bottom to absorb moisture, then the container is put >>in the refrigerator for two days. After that, the silica gel is >>removed and the pollen can then be stored in the freezer in a sealed >>container. The pollen remains viable for nearly a year. > >This is very interesting. I am surprised that the silica gel doesn't >completely dessicate the pollen to such a degree that the pollen is I take it this process is for storing not pollen, but pollinia? Or is the pollen scraped out first? -Michael (just marginally curious) ################### From: SORIN_D@PAVO.CONCORDIA.CA Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 14:39:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: CP in montreal does anyone hnows stores and peoples selling CP in Montreal area? any feedback is welcomed sorin sorin_d@pavo.concordia.ca ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 18:53:43 -0800 Subject: _D. adelae_ & stuff sorry i'm a bit late answering my mail? the mail? i'll start with a question. WHY propigate seed in tissue culture? isn't that doing things the hard way? on the _D. adelae side i've been growing this one for a while now. almost four years now. my first winter with this plant in the green house i got caught in seattle by a snow storm and my greenhouse froze. 18 deg f. for about as many houres. all the above ground portions died off and i thaught i'd lost the plant sure. i kept the moss alive expecting too use it in the spring and about the end of april or mid may when i went to use the moss there it was. that summer i devided the plant and last winter one of the devisions stayed in the house and one in the greenhouse this year the one that dies back to the root in the greenhouse is larger and healthier than the ones in the house. while i admit the winter i give them may be a bit much i think they may just need a rest. krs ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 21:02:42 -0800 Subject: more questions gordon i was wondering how that _D. whittakeri_ cutting i sent you in the mail last year did? i lifted one of this years cuttings out of its little bed tonight and if every thing went well with the one i sent to you last year then one or two are ready for shipment. barry how's the weather down there. you are #1 on that list if it is cool enough down there that it wont go straight into tuber? andreas what are the shiping regs like into De? if i can take sucessfull cuttings you should be able to do tissue culture on it. P.S. i ship bare root. Kevin Snively ################### From: Phil Soderman Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 21:50:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: _D. adelae_ & stuff Kevin Sometimes in hybridization very few seed are produced from a cross. In that case planting the seed in tissue culture avoids the problems of damping off, slugs, drying out or any other grief. You might be able to get some rare types of hybrids. Sometimes a cross will not allow full development of the seed . Embryo rescue-tissue culture can be used to save seed that would not develope in the seed pod. Another reason would be to multiply plants where seed is rare. Once I grew Philodendron tuxla from seed. The seed source had a disaster and only produced 1000 seed one year. I put the seed into tissue culture with a multiplication type of media and grew more than 20,000 plants from that block for 3 years until the seed supply came back. Don't forget that in the orchids the sowing of their seed on nutrient agar substitutes for the natural fungus living on the seed pod and the sugar that it produces from decaying organic matter, without that system we would have orchids only by division. Maybe someone can come up with some other reasons. Phil Soderman sgrower1@rain.org Carpinteria, Calif where my tangerines are the best ever. On Fri, 21 Jan 1994, Kevin Snively wrote: > sorry i'm a bit late answering my mail? the mail? > i'll start with a question. WHY propigate seed in tissue culture? isn't > that doing things the hard way? > > on the _D. adelae side i've been growing this one for a while now. > almost four years now. my first winter with this plant in the green house > i got caught in seattle by a snow storm and my greenhouse froze. 18 deg > f. for about as many houres. all the above ground portions died off and i > thaught i'd lost the plant sure. i kept the moss alive expecting too use > it in the spring and about the end of april or mid may when i went to use > the moss there it was. that summer i devided the plant and last winter > one of the devisions stayed in the house and one in the greenhouse this > year the one that dies back to the root in the greenhouse is larger and > healthier than the ones in the house. while i admit the winter i give > them may be a bit much i think they may just need a rest. > krs > ################### From: donb@coplex.coplex.com (Don Burden) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 14:55 EST Subject: CP Storing of pollen: Here's a message from the orchids group: ========================= I have stored pollen for up to 12 months with good results. I depends on the genus and the quality of your storage area. I use glasine envelopes made from negative holders and a jar with silicon gel in the bottom to hold them. I then place this in the butter holder in may refrigerator door. (My wife loves finding what new object I am storing in the butter holder this month.) Paph's up to 6 months very few problems Phal's up to 6 months problems when stored longer Cattelya's and relatives up to 12 months very few problems I measure problems by will I get viable seed from a cross made with the pollen. I do not store longer than 12 months as I usually have the plant back in bloom again and can get fresh pollen. Tom /---------------------------------------------------\ | Tom Hillson | Iowa State University | | Computer Coordinator | Experiment Station | | hillson@iastate.edu | Room 17 Curtiss Hall | | (515) 294-1543 | Ames, IA 50011 | >-------------------------------------------------< | "Things change only if you put in your two cents" | \---------------------------------------------------/ ===================end of message====================== I remember another message that said the silica gel should be removed after only a few days, but that might have been in "rec.gardens" or somewhere else. To subscribe to the orchids group: Send e-mail to "mailserv@scuacc.scu.edu", with "sub orchids" to subscribe. "help" get a list of other commands. "index" get a list of files that you can have sent to you (mostly logs of previous messages). There's a new book published within the past year that people have been talking about in the orchids group. The title is something close to "In-Vitro Propagation of Orchids". Other groups: There are not yet groups for bromeliads or cactii. If anyone wants these groups, they might send e-mail to the person maintaining the aroids listserve at Missouri Botanical Gardens. Once the listserve is up and running for the aroids group, it should be no problem to add new groups if there's enough disk space and the computer can handle the added load. Perry Malouf is having trouble with his computer. He said he has recently contacted the curator for the Nepenthes at the Missouri Botanical Gardens. She appears to be a very nice person to talk to and she may get an account at "mobot" in the near future so she can talk to us on the the "cp" group. -- Don Burden New Albany, Indiana, USA donb@coplex.com ################### From: M Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 19:51:00 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: _D. adelae_ & stuff Heh, ksnive, are you, by any chance, in Connecticut?? Michael ################### From: doug.fung@ednet.bc.ca Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 19:24:48 Subject: FLORA OF MT KINABALU I have a document that lists some of the interesting databases on the internet and one of them looks particularly interesting to CPers. It mentions that The Flora of Mt. Kinabalu; 16,300 specimen records of all vascular plant collections from the mountain is available by e-mail from herbdata@herbarium.bpp.msu.edu. Send the message "help" to receive a usage guide. I have sent mail and it has not bounced but I have not received a reply. Has anyone else tried this? is Michigan State's herbarium accessable through gopher? ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 20:08:24 -0800 Subject: Re: _D. adelae_ & stuff On Sat, 22 Jan 1994, M wrote: > Heh, ksnive, are you, by any chance, in Connecticut?? > > Michael > no Washington state 32 miles north of bob beer & about 100 miles south of doug fung. about 48 deg north lat by 122 deg. 15 min longitude krs ################### From: phil mueller Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 22:46:39 CST Subject: Natriphene Does anyone on the list know where to purchase Natriphene? Jones and Scully handled it, but they went out od business after Andrew. -- Phil Mueller hi23ahg@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu Tulane Graduate School Xavier Univ. of LA History Dept. ################### From: kirk martin <98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 16:47:13 PST Subject: agar for seeds? I've heard a few different ways to germinate seeds ie. beds of peat in a bag and forget about it among others. I recently heard you say you use .7% mixture o f sigma agar. Just curious what other nutrients you add to that and if you have experimented with any antibiotics to keep fungal growth down. I seem to recall we used a small amount of ampicillin in our lab to control molds etc. I've ordered a few packets of the more common cp's from the seed bank and want to get some things set up. Kevin do you happen to know of any CP greenhouses in the Tri-Cities out here? I'm planning a road trip soon to go visit some friends. Any ideas? Sounds like your D. adelae is in Darwin's book under "survival of the fittest" Jeff it was 53 here yesterday hope you get some warm weather soon.... Kirk ################### From: hi23ahg@convex1.TCS.Tulane.EDU (Philp Mueller) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 19:36:57 CST Subject: Re: FLORA OF MT KINABALU I was able to get into the gopher and played for awhile (searched for Apmorphophallus) There is a lot of useful material there, but it will take a little while to figure it out. >I have sent mail and it has not bounced but I have not received a >reply. Has anyone else tried this? is Michigan State's herbarium >accessable through gopher? -- Phil Mueller hi23ahg@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu ################### From: Ctcreel@top.cis.syr.edu Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 20:51:46 EST Subject: Comparison I have a question for those Nepenthes growers out there. I am using a Phototron to grow about 5 Nepenthes. The Phototron realy does improve the growth of the plants. The traps and leaves are much larger and the leaves are a darker green. But the plants seem to grow very slow. Of course, I don't really have a point of reference, as I have never grown these plants in another environment. I was hoping some of you who grow these plants could give me a yardstick from which to work. I have a N.ventricosa, N.mirabilis, N.gracilis, N.cuba and N.alata. In general, they take about three to five weeks to develop a trap and about three weeks to grow a leaf to maturity. The plants are under 1,800 foot candles of light for 12 hours a day. They are currently growing in a mixture of shredded sphagnum, Cimbidium orchid mix (large chunks of charcoal, bark and perlite). I fertilize them with Superthrive, Dynagrow ro-Tekt 0-0-3.7 and Dynagrow K-L-N concentrate. The humidity is probably rather low as the phototron opts for moving air rather a closed space with high humidity. The tempreture is "room tempreture." So, should my plants be growing faster? If so, does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks for your advice... Chris ################### From: R Britt Date: Sun, 23 Jan 1994 22:14:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wierd Tissue! I noticed that a tiny sundew has started to grow from the flower scape of a D. intermedia I have in a terrarium. I have never added any plant hormones. My wife the plant molecular biologist says the tissue has just taking a strange differentiation pathway. Is this at all unusual? I haven't seen anything like it before. -rdb ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 1994 22:36:50 +0800 Subject: Re: Wierd Tissue! >>I noticed that a tiny sundew has started to grow from the flower >>scape of a D. intermedia I have in a terrarium. I have never added >>any plant hormones. My wife the plant molecular biologist says >>the tissue has just taking a strange differentiation pathway. Is >>this at all unusual? I haven't seen anything like it before. This happens once in a while. I've seen it on a Dionea grown outdoors. I got a little plant going on the scape, which I planted and it's now mature. Sometimes stressing a plant does stuff like this, but sometimes it just happens. Robert ################### From: "Rupert Wilson (Herbarium, RNG)" Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 08:22:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: FLORA OF MT KINABALU On Sat, 22 Jan 1994, doug.fung wrote: > I have sent mail and it has not bounced but I have not received a > reply. Has anyone else tried this? is Michigan State's herbarium > accessable through gopher? The answer is YES! Gopher over to the Biodiversity Gopher at Harvard; huh.harvard.edu and select the following; 3. Biodiversity Information Resources 6. Floras 1. Flora of Mt Kinabalu, Sabah, Malaysia. Share and Enjoy, Rupes ----------------------------------------------------------- Rupert G. Wilson (Herbarium Technician, RNG) \ /~ sbswilsn@uk.ac.reading (Internet) ] echo ~usual.dis_claimer ;-} ] ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 11:07:50 +0100 Subject: Re: Comparison Chris, >I have a N.ventricosa, N.mirabilis, N.gracilis, N.cuba and N.alata. How does "N.cuba" look like? Jan ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 11:13:52 +0100 Subject: Re: agar for seeds? Kirk, >I recently heard you say you use .7% mixture of sigma agar. Just curious what >>other nutrients you add to that Of course, the salts and vitamins of the media discussed have to be added! > and if you have experimented with any antibiotics to keep fungal growth down. Yes, there has been some experimenting around with various antibiotics. The result was, however, not at all satisfactory. The method recommended is proper disinfection of the material. As a rule, once there is a fungal infection, antibiotics won't be too effective. If the cultures are "clean" anyway, antibiotics are of no benefit (even worse: you will realize infections later than without antibiotics). Kind regards Jan ################### From: MALOUF@ESTD.NRL.NAVY.MIL Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 7:39:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re. Weird Tissue and Comparison On the subject of Wierd Tissue, there was written: >I noticed that a tiny sundew has started to grow from the flower >scape of a D. intermedia I have in a terrarium. I have never added >any plant hormones. My wife the plant molecular biologist says >the tissue has just taking a strange differentiation pathway. Is >this at all unusual? I haven't seen anything like it before. The exact same thing happened to my D. Binata. Tiny mature leaves grew from one of the withered flowers along the flower stalk. It was kind of neat. I snipped off the mini-plant and set it in peat. Since there were no roots on it, some time passed before it recovered and became a separate plant. On the same plant, I've recently noticed mature leaves coming from one of the drainage holes in the bottom of the pot. Seems the plant likes to grow! On the subject of Nepenthes growth, there was written: >I have a question for those Nepenthes growers out there. I am using a >Phototron to grow about 5 Nepenthes. The Phototron realy does improve >the growth of the plants. The traps and leaves are much larger and >the leaves are a darker green. But the plants seem to grow very slow. >Of course, I don't really have a point of reference, as I have never >grown these plants in another environment. I don't know what a phototron is. In the deleted portion of the text some mention was made of lower humidity due to circulating air. I'm surprised that your plants pitcher well with "relatively low" humidity, although without a number I don't know what "low" is. I find that my Nepenthes have growth spurts. In the summer I keep them outside in hanging baskets under dappled sunlight. Our summers are fairly hot and humid, but the plants grow at the rate you described for yours. In the winter, though, I bring them inside, and put them in clear plastic trashbags under a battery of 4-foot fluorescent tubes on timers. The distance between the tubes and the top of the pots is about 1.5 feet. The plants are really crowded in there, but they grow much faster than in the summer. One of the N. Alatas has three new textbook-example pitchers on it, developed over approx. 6 weeks. Same for one of the N. Khasianas. The other N. Alata has put out a lot of (annoying) top growth, which must be untangled from the other plants. Under similar conditions, my N. x Wrigleyana and N. x dominii are growing pitchers but at a slower rate. Perry ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 09:44:36 MST XSubject: Re. Weird Tissue and Comparison >I have a question for those Nepenthes growers out there. I am using a >Phototron to grow about 5 Nepenthes. The Phototron realy does improve Chris Cool! I've seen those Phototrons advertised in various magazines, and it looked like they were pitching very hard for indoor _Cannabis_ growers. So, what is that thing? It looks like some weird terrarium with vertical fluorescent lights. So, do you think it grows plants better than other more conventional arrangements? >I noticed that a tiny sundew has started to grow from the flower >scape of a D. intermedia I have in a terrarium. I have never added I believe this is called either "false vivipary" or "vegetative apomyxsis", but in any event I've seen it happen to this species in cultivation and in the New Jersey Pine Barrens. Barry ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 09:06:40 +0800 Subject: Re: Comparison >>I have a question for those Nepenthes growers out there. I am using a >>Phototron to grow about 5 Nepenthes. The Phototron realy does improve >>the growth of the plants. The traps and leaves are much larger and >>the leaves are a darker green. But the plants seem to grow very slow. >>Of course, I don't really have a point of reference, as I have never >>grown these plants in another environment. I was hoping some of you >>who grow these plants could give me a yardstick from which to work. >>I have a N.ventricosa, N.mirabilis, N.gracilis, N.cuba and N.alata. >>In general, they take about three to five weeks to develop a trap >>and about three weeks to grow a leaf to maturity. The plants are >>under 1,800 foot candles of light for 12 hours a day. They are >>currently growing in a mixture of shredded sphagnum, Cimbidium >>orchid mix (large chunks of charcoal, bark and perlite). I fertilize >>them with Superthrive, Dynagrow ro-Tekt 0-0-3.7 and Dynagrow K-L-N >>concentrate. The humidity is probably rather low as the phototron >>opts for moving air rather a closed space with high humidity. The >>tempreture is "room tempreture." N. gracilis and N. mirabilis are both lowland plants, which means they like day temps of over 80 degrees F. Night temps should be 60-70. If you don't have high temps, the plants will grow slower. If you don't have high humidity, the plants will produce smaller pitchers and grow slower. N. alata an supposedly be grown as a windowsill plant, but I don't know how quickly it grows that way. I've grown N. ventricosa outdoors during the summer and it did well. During the winter it took cold damage, at possibly freezing temps, but now that I've moved it into my hot and humid terrarium it's coming back very well. I don't fertilize my Nepenthes much at all. I grow them in a 1/1/1 mix of peat/perlite/fine-orchid-bark. Robert ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 11:00:46 -0800 Subject: Cacti_etc listserv announcement > Other groups: > There are not yet groups for bromeliads or cactii. Bob Jewett, a colleague of mine, has just started a cactus-related listserv. The new group can be subscribed to by sending the message: SUB CACTI_ETC First_Name Last_Name to: listserv@jr.hpl.hp.com The "etc" refers to other spiny plants and succulents. Correspondence should go to: cacti_etc@jr.hpl.hp.com The list owner is: jewett@jr.hpl.hp.com This new group is running on the same listserv as our cp group. -- Rick ################### From: MALOUF@ESTD.NRL.NAVY.MIL Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 14:45:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Phototrons, Nepenthes, and some questions answered Chris wrote to me: >...I should explain what a phototron is. Basically it is a growing chamber >that is about 4'6" high and about 2'6" in diameter. It has three U shaped >broad spectrum flouresents combined with one way glass which produces about >1,800 foot candles of light. This light is the primary reason the plants >do so well. It either kills them or makes them stronger when first put >in the chamber. Second, it has an automatic watering system which keeps >a one inch puddle of water at the bottom of the growing medium, which is >about 8 to 10 inches deep. This system allows the plants to draw as much >water as they need. Chris, Thanks for explaining what a phototron is. Now, to your questions. >First and foremost, how wet do you keep them (Nepenthes) >and what is the planting media. The planting media is regular, unmilled dry sphagnum. Before use, the sphagnum is soaked in a pail of water until it has absorbed as much as it can. For the Nepenthes, I keep the sphagnum damp to the touch. It tends to hold water fairly well in a reasonably humid environment. For example, I have D. capensis potted in sphagnum and not in a humid enclosure. It needs water about once a week, thoroughly (a good soaking until the water runs out of the bottom of the pot). Since the Nepenthes are in a plastic bag with only a few quarter-sized holes in it, the humidity is very close to 100% relative. I don't have to water them but once every two weeks, or even less. My set up is roughly similar to your phototron except for the humidity. I have four fluorescent tube fixtures, each containing two four-foot tubes. I use half grow-lux and half regular white. The fixtures are horizontal and crammed close together side by side, about two feet off the floor. The plants are in a clear plastic bag underneath, along with some other plants that are not in bags. Over the top and sides of the whole thing is a sheet of silvered mylar to keep as much of the light on the plants as possible. I've set the photoperiod on the controller for 12 hours of light. And, with this set up the plants get a LOT of light. My N. Alatas and N. Khasianas have no trouble developing beautiful red mottling on the pitchers--better than in the summer! I guess that's because I sunburned them one year and have since been reluctant to give them anything more than dappled sunlight. Unfortunately this set up is not good for showing the plants--it's only good for wintering them until I can put them outside. I imagine your phototron is good for showing the plants. Also, my plants have no trouble growing taller than the fixture level, and so must be run horizontally until I take them out or prune them. I do not have a thick layer of planting media with the lower portion soaked, as your phototron does. Each of my Nepenthes is in its own pot and I make sure to keep the pots out of standing water. >Second and last, do you fertilize them with anything? I use absolutely no fertilizer on my Nepenthes. I've heard wonderful stories about Superthrive, Miracid, and Peter's, but I've also heard that fertilizing Nepenthes makes the plant produce more vine and less pitchers. I have no personal experience with this, but mine are doing just fine and I'd rather not play with them. Perry ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 13:20:33 MST Subject: Phototron How hot does it get inside the Phototron? B ################### From: Ctcreel@top.cis.syr.edu Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 16:34:08 EST Subject: Sorry if this is a repeat The tempreture in the phototron depends largly on the surrounding tempreture. Because the system is relatively open, their is not a severe problem of overheating, like you would get in a terrarium. But, the lamps do put out a substantial amount of heat, so add 15 to 20 degrees to the current room tempreture and that is the temp inside the Phototron. If anyone is interested in the system, the address of the company who makes it is: Pyraponic Industries Inc. II On The Avenue of Science P.O. Box 27809 San Diego, CA 92198-1809 There is a whole lot more to the system than I have told you, primarily the fact that they give you a custom made fertilizer that is based on the plants nutrient consumption, but I would highly advise against the use of the fertilizer as it killed most of my plants when I first started using the Phototron. Other than that it is a great way to grow CP's that want _lots_ of light and water. Chris ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 13:50:55 +0800 Subject: Re: Sorry if this is a repeat >>There is a whole lot more to the system than I have told you, primarily >>the fact that they give you a custom made fertilizer that is based on >>the plants nutrient consumption, but I would highly advise against the >>use of the fertilizer as it killed most of my plants when I first started >>using the Phototron. Given where the mfgrs. advertise, I'd guess that the fertilizer might be specific to a few species, which probably aren't Nepenthes. So did you order this from the mfgr.? If so, did you get paid any visits by gov't agents after receiving it? Robert ################### From: "Terry Bertozzi (08) 303 7400" Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 21:45:00 +1030 Subject: Sturt Peas again Sorry for this late reply, just got back from holidays. To germinate Sturt desert peas first surface sterilize the seed with ordinary household bleach and place the seeds in a jar and cover them with freshly boiled water. Leave them in the water over night and then sow them in a petri dish on wet filter paper. They should germinate within a couple of days. Transfer the seedlings to "jiffy pots" (compressed peat pots) which have been soaked in water and have absorbed their fill. Keep the peat pots very wet and place them in a very bright,warm place (I keep mine in the coolhouse in direct sun). When roots start to appear through the base and sides of the "jiffy pots" pot the whole thing up into a 5-6" pot. The compost should be very open i.e 60% sand, 30% perlite and 10 % peat or some such. The pot should be watered by immersing it into a container of water and letting it absorb its fill. The pot should then be allowed to drain and not watered again until the compost is just about bone dryowed to drain and should not watered again until the compost is just about bone dry. Fertilize regularly by dissolving the fertilizer in the water before immersing the pot in it. I use "Topsoluable" which is a gerneral purpose soluable fertilizer. It's long winded but I hope it helps. Terry ################### From: Bob Beer Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 16:22:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Phototron > >>There is a whole lot more to the system than I have told you, > >>primarily the fact that they give you a custom made fertilizer that > >>is based on the plants nutrient consumption, but I would highly > >>advise against the use of the fertilizer as it killed most of my > >>plants when I first started using the Phototron. > > Given where the mfgrs. advertise, I'd guess that the fertilizer might > be specific to a few species, which probably aren't Nepenthes. > > So did you order this from the mfgr.? If so, did you get paid any > visits by gov't agents after receiving it? It is sort of hard to imagine growing any illicit substance in such a narrow container. I don't think you would need to worry about surprise visits by the DEA. Although there are incidents of people receiving visits after purchasing 1,000-watt Halide or Sodium lamps, even most of those people do not have any problem. What the "agencies" watch for is large jumps in electric power use (say, the kind of jump one would get if one suddenly started running 6 1,000-watt halides). Since it is doubtful that many people who had that many of them and could afford it would be growing CP. Heck, a greenhouse would be cheaper for someone who had nothing to hide than $1440 yearly just in electric bills! This is based on the fact that in Seattle, my single halide (which is used for starting seeds and growing hoyas and stapelias mind you) costs about $20 per month to run at 16 hours per day. Nepenthes love it too. :) ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 17:23:10 -0800 Subject: Re: _D. whittakeri (ssp. aberrans?) Barry two plants are on their way today via priority mail when you look at the below ground porton of the stem you will notice one or two lateral shoots branching off. DO NOT BREAK THEM! they will form your new tubers (corums? ;-) ). these are the cuttings you were curious about last oct when i mentioned making them. avg temps in my greenhouse have been 35 deg. F. night and 45-50 deg. F. days. the %R.H. has been above 95% most of the time. there parents usualy go dormant about june here and wake up in late aug or early sept. when i pot up transplants of this type i like to pour my media in dry and when things are just so i make them wet. i sent the discreption to you with the gardens of the sun due to a postal snafu the name tage will follow a fiew days later. later krs ################### From: donb@coplex.coplex.com (Don Burden) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 22:14 EST Subject: CP Tropical Utrics and freezing weather: A U. tricolor survived temperatures to near 0F outside here under a foot of dead leaves last year. This was growing as a weed in a pot of Drosera. I doubt if U. sandersonii could survive because this species is much more intolerant of cold. Nepenthes: I've been growing my plants under a 1000 watt metal halide light system for the past 3 months. The first 8-inch (20 cm) pitcher - the biggest Nepenthes pitcher I've seen in 'real life' - has been produced on a N. x mixta 'superba' (or N. x 'superba') and has just opened a few days ago. I've been watering from a 3-gallon bucket filled with rain water. This bucket needs re-filling about twice a week. With every 2nd filling, I add a 1/4 teaspoon of Miracle Grow (30-10-10 for 'acid-loving plants'). This is used to water nearly my whole CP collection. Every two weeks, a few drops of Hormex liquid (similar to Superthrive) is added to the water too. Humidity is not particularly high: 60% to 75%. It's interesting to note that after the lights first turn on, the humidity steadily increases for a few hours before dropping. I suppose this increase is from burning off the 'dew' or the thin film of water that builds up on most surfaces during the cooler dark period. The heat generated from these lights is overstated and the temperature increase after the lights have been on for several hours is only 10 to 15 degrees F. Other things you can do on the 'internet': >From the gopher at the Australian National Botanical Gardens, you can see data from many herbarium specimens (where the specimen was collected, what kind of soil was it growing in, etc). On this same gopher, you can also see a list of species being grown at several of the Botanical Gardens in Australia. In-vitro Nepenthes culture: When the plants are big enough to be removed from the flasks and put into pots, how is the culture continued for another generation? Are some plants taken from the sterile media and just chopped up and placed in fresh media? Has anyone tried growing them similar to the way orchids are grown from an apical meristem - in liquid nutrient solution under constant agitation? In this method, as the first plantlet grows from the meristem, the agitation breaks it into two or more pieces after which each part again grows and breaks up. In a short time after enough plantlets are generated, they are placed on solid agar media to develop normally. -- Don Burden New Albany, Indiana, USA donb@coplex.com ################### From: "Kevin J. Merz" Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 22:58:18 -0500 Subject: BYE for now... To all (especially Don...), My boss (see FROM:) has now started to use the email service that he is paying for (and the one that I use). Unfortunately, he doesn't like to read about cp very much and has asked me not to subscribe while I'm not in the office (i.e. now). So, I will be unsubscribing from the list for now. This probably doesn't concern anyone but Don, who will be wanting my check for Andreas. Just email me direct Don. Bye for now, Davin ################### From: R Britt Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 21:45:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Phototron $20 a month? You should set up a 100 Gallon coral reef tank with two metal halides and a water chiller! Talk to my wife first about the power bills! :) -rdb ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 10:20:54 GMT+1 Subject: Re: CP Don, you wrote: > In-vitro Nepenthes culture: >...how is the culture continued for another generation? You put plants on a multiplication-medium and wait until they have multiplied. Then you may either cut the bunch of resulting plants apart and repeat the procedure or you may plant them to normal soil. Sometimes it's necessary to do this via a rooting-hormone step. > Has anyone tried growing them similar to the way orchids are grown > from an apical meristem - in liquid nutrient solution under constant > agitation? In this method, as the first plantlet grows from the > meristem, the agitation breaks it into two or more pieces after which > each part again grows and breaks up. In a short time after enough > plantlets are generated, they are placed on solid agar media to > develop normally. I've tried meristem culture in Nepenthes and in one case (N. alata) it had worked. However I did this with solid medium because in preliminary experiments all the Nepenthes I put in liquid medium showed strong vitrification symptoms. Andreas ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 11:24:00 +0100 Subject: things you can't do Don, >Other things you can do on the 'internet': >>From the gopher at the Australian National Botanical Gardens, you can >see data from many herbarium specimens (where the specimen was collected, >what kind of soil was it growing in, etc). On this same gopher, you can >also see a list of species being grown at several of the Botanical Gardens >in Australia. Other things you *CAN'T* do on the internet: The last service mentioned is not that great as it sounds! At the moment it is impossible to get connected with the ANBG, but the last time I wanted to know e.g. which spp. of _Drosera_ were grown in AU, I got the first 40 in the alphabet and then the list was cut off for no obvious reason (no chance for _D.zonaria_!). At least in the last few months, there was apparently no way (or time) in AU to solve these purely technical problems. Kind regards Jan ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 09:15:45 MST Subject: Anthocyanin-free Sarrs Hey, I've learned a few things in the last couple of days from my snail-mail correspondents. First, I've heard for the third time that an anthocyanin-free _S.minor_ has been found. Second, I've heard that the yellow-flowered _S.leucophylla_ we've been seeing on various lists (for example Uwe Westphal's) is not necessarily the same beast as the anthocyanin-free plant. Apparently, there are some S.leucophylla's out there with yellow flowers but red-veined leaves. Barry ################### From: Bob Beer Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 08:30:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Phototron On Mon, 24 Jan 1994, R Britt wrote: > $20 a month? You should set up a 100 Gallon coral reef tank > with two metal halides and a water chiller! Talk to my wife > first about the power bills! :) > -rdb > > No thanks....I used to be an aquarium "enthusiast"...21 tanks in a 2 bedroom apartment. Seriously, though, (take my wife, please!) electricity rates vary in different parts of the country too. That is why I was specific on the region. Bob ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 14:56:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hi Folks, Kirk, could you send me your snail-mail address. I'm having problems contacting you directly. If someone else has it would you send it to me? Thanks! Jeff (in NC, where it made 64 F today!) ################### From: zspace@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:58:00 EST Subject: Re: Cacti_etc listserv announ... Rick, Hi, I saw your announcement on cacti and in it you mentioned bromeliads. Is anyone trying to organize a Bromeliad group? If you hear of any please let me know. Regards, Alan Olinger - ZSPACE@AOL.COM ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 11:04:57 -0800 Subject: Re: Cacti_etc listserv announ... Alan, > Hi, I saw your announcement on cacti and in it you mentioned bromeliads. > Is anyone trying to organize a Bromeliad group? If you hear of any please > let me know. Will do. I don't know of any Bromeliad group at the moment, and we don't have any plans to start one here. -- Rick ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 14:57:32 MST Subject: non-acidic soils I have just gotten a few hibernacula of European _Pinguicula_ which require a neutral or basic soil medium. So we're back to an old question: How do I make a soil mix for them? Rob Maharajh (who sent them) suggested a 1:1:1 sand/perlite/crushed limestone mix. So where in the phone book do I look for crushed limestone? Sunday night the missus and I were at a wine-tasting, and sitting next to us was a chemist. Chemistry is a field I've never understood to my satisfaction. So I seized the opportunity to ask him some questions (I know, kind of nerdy of me). He told me the most amazing thing. He claims that water running over limestone actually becomes acidic because of the carbonate ions (carbonic acid, carbonation). So are _Pings_ that are said to grow in a neutral or neutral-basic media really doing so? Barry ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 14:45:51 +0800 Subject: Re: non-acidic soils >>I have just gotten a few hibernacula of European _Pinguicula_ which >>require a neutral or basic soil medium. So we're back to an old >>question: How do I make a soil mix for them? >> >>Rob Maharajh (who sent them) suggested a 1:1:1 sand/perlite/crushed >>limestone mix. So where in the phone book do I look for crushed >>limestone? Isn't vermiculite basic? >>Sunday night the missus and I were at a wine-tasting, and sitting next >>to us was a chemist. Chemistry is a field I've never understood to my >>satisfaction. So I seized the opportunity to ask him some questions >>(I know, kind of nerdy of me). He told me the most amazing thing. He >>claims that water running over limestone actually becomes acidic >>because of the carbonate ions (carbonic acid, carbonation). >> >>So are _Pings_ that are said to grow in a neutral or neutral-basic >>media really doing so? I've long wondered about whether acid vs. basic makes any difference. Years ago it was said that Drosophyllum NEEDED basic soil. I've grown it in what I presume to be acid soil with no problems. I mean, do these botanists actually run around with litmus paper to test the soil mix they find the plants growing in? (seriously!) Robert ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:00:47 -0800 Subject: Re: non-acidic soils > I have just gotten a few hibernacula of European _Pinguicula_ which > require a neutral or basic soil medium. So we're back to an old > question: How do I make a soil mix for them? > > Rob Maharajh (who sent them) suggested a 1:1:1 sand/perlite/crushed limestone > mix. So where in the phone book do I look for crushed limestone? I found crushed limestone at the local organic gardening shop (along with granite dust, bone meal, etc). "Chalk" or "Diatomaceous earth" are other synonyms for sources of nearly pure Calcium carbonate. Maybe you could also crush egg-shells or (fresh-water?) oyster-shells. "Dolomite" (CaMg(CO3)2) is commonly available and might be a suitable substitute for Calcium carbonate. I don't know what effect the Magnesium would have on CP, though. Vermiculite is slightly basic (and buffering). This is what I use for mexican pings. -- Rick ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 16:12:42 MST Subject: Re: non-acidic soils I used Dolomite once on some marly S.purpurea purpurea unsuccessfully. My favorite story about these limestone issues is when I considered grinding some chalk (the kind you write on chalkboards). I was warned that such chalk contains a "binding agent" which sounds ominous. I looked at the box, and down at the bottom was a notice that the chalk was ``CP Nontoxic." Really! Of course, I think this stands for something else, but it was really funny to me. I'd be afraid of Diatomaceous earth, because it may contain a lot of salt being a porous ocean product. B ################### From: ATLASD@delphi.com Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 18:29:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Phototron, Nepenthes, etc. Chris, I've joined in a bit late, but your growth rate of Nepenthes sounds about right to me. I once figured out that most of my Neps put up a new leaf every 3-4 weeks. How much does one of these phototron units cost? I've had pretty good success growing lowland Nepenthes in aquaria with a 2 bulb, 4 foot shoplight for light. I put about 3 inches of water in the bottom of the aquariaum, drop in a submersible heater set to 80F, and place the pots on "egg crate" which is suspended aboveetheewater. I grow 'em in long-fiber sphagnum, and fertilize with dilute miracid occasionally. We had a spell of record breaking cold last week, and temps droppped to -5FF. As luck would have it, our heater died and the temps inside dropped to below freezing. We ended up with frozen pipes and lots of dead CP. :( The temps in the Nepenthes terraria went down to 50F, but the plants survived. My cephalotus' pitchers have all turned black, but I'm hoping the plant will come back. Lots of sub-tropical Drosera were lost. On the bright side, I lost lots of weedy D Capensis. Doug Atlas ################### From: (Bob Cruder) Date: Wed Jan 26 17:45:14 1994 Subject: Diatomaceous earth, was non-acidic soils (SMTP Id#: 2672) - Reply Diatomaceous earth looks like crushed limestone but isn't. You may find it useful nonetheless. Diatomaceous earth is composed of the silica skeletons of diatoms. For those unfamiliar with the product, it can be found naturally as clay-like or rock-like forms. The clay-like form is finely powdered and is used both as a polishing agent and as a filter medium. The rock-like form is crushed and sold both as kitty litter and as an oil absorbent for garage use. One common name is oil-dri. Diatomaceous earth has lots of surface area, like zeolite clays. It is therefore great for adsorbing other materials, buffering variations in nutrients and PH. When mined, it has rather a lot of trace mineral ions already adsorbed so it is often used as a trace mineral amendment. It holds water well but also passes air freely. It shares that characteristic with the open-pore forms of agricultural pumice. I use it in place of pearlite. It is at least as good for encouraging drainage but doesn't float out the way pearlite does. Some hydroponic growers use it exclusively. The oil-dri/kitty litter packaging is most availabe but must be sifted to remove the largest and smallest particles. It is a great equalizer. A recent edition of the CSSA journal reported cacti and tender herbs growing close together in a high rainfall area rooted only in diatomaceous earth. The drainage and porosity kept the cactus roots from rotting while the water holding ability kept the herbs from drying. The mineral holding ability prevented all nutrients from being washed away. Neat stuff! Bob Cruder - bcruder@miaco.com ################### From: 98286229@wsuvm1.wsu.csc.edu Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 19:33:36 PST Subject: ready...... Jeff, got your message (not sure if my reply function is working on my e-mail. Got all my supplies but not sure of one thing. I had read that builder's sand could be bought at hardware stores. I now have a 100lb bag of 125 grit sand Is that too fine? I can exchange it if it is the wrong type. I'm normally home in the mornings so I'll be around when the shipment arrives. Could you give me yoursnail address again so I can at least mail you some postage. Thanks again Hope these plants grow like weeds for me.... Kirk I have to run..currently at work and would like to keep my job Bye. ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 20:08:38 -0800 Subject: deep freeze doug sorry to here about your _Cephalotus_ i do my spring cuttings at the end of feb or mid march how do you want your's rooted or unrooted? rooting takes a month or two. ping soil i use is the one recomended for mex pings by the ping study group. by volume: 2 parts corse perlite 3 parts corse vermiculite the only thing is i like it so well i'm now using it for all my ping's and some of my _Nepenthes_ also. if you need anything else doug let us know. to me its greenhouse insurance and now is premium time! kevin ################### From: kirk martin <98286229@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 21:30:08 PST Subject: ready and waiting.... Jeff, Thanks for the shipment. I'll let you know how it faired across the country when it arrives. Bought all my supplies today and have peat and pots etc, but have a question with the sand. I thought I had read on CP mail that #120 grit sand was used in the mixture. Somehow this sand looks too fine could you confirm again what grit to use as I can still return this 100LB BAG... (smallest they had). Thanks also for the heads up phone call. Also, I might be having trouble with my reply function was my mail posted yesterday? I want to go run out and build a greenhouse in my backyard now...It sounds like this is a typical reaction to CP growers. Bye for now... Kirk ################### From: Ctcreel@top.cis.syr.edu Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 1:26:40 EST Subject: Phototron, Nepenthes, etc. The Phototron is about around $200.00. They have a few gizzies which are worth while, like the automatic watering system. It is excellent for starting plants from seed and continuing to grow those plants. It is a little harder to grow plants raised in a greenhouse, as putting them in the Phototron is like putting them outside in the full sun for the first time. If your thinking of getting one, I highly reccomend it. They really do produce results. If you actually get one, I have a few suggestions: 1) Ignore all of their literature about custom made nutrients. These nutrients are for plants who are interested in obtaining those nutrients from their roots, CP are definately not that kind of plant. 2) Choose the plants you are going to put in it and that you plan to keep in it. Once you have planted them, start the photo period out at 6 to 7 hours. Then, increase their day by an hour a week. By the end of the six to seven weeks, they will be very hardy and producing unusually large traps and leaves. 3) I have tried Sundews, VF and Nepenthes. The sundews love the phototron and the Nepenthes certainly seem to like it. The VF's I have tried die, and die quickly. Granted, I have only tried two, but I consider that enough (one man can only take so much heart ache). If you have a serious interest, contact me directly at ctcreel@top.cis.syr.edu and I will be happy to answer any questions. Chris ################### From: Ctcreel@top.cis.syr.edu Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 1:34:51 EST Subject: Superthrive A few months ago a discussion was brought up about Superthrive. It sounded very interesting, but I was also very skeptical. I ordered a bottle of this stuff from a place in Florida and was even more skeptical when I actually received the bottle. I have two words, _snake oil_. I figured it couldn't do any harm, so I tried it out. I am a believer! My N.ventricosa which refused to pitcher has produced a pitcher about 10.5 centimeters (about 4.25 inches) in height and 4 centimeters at the mouth and another is on the way. It could be that it just got used to the Phototron, but the other plants are growing faster as well. Chris ################### From: R Britt Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 22:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Phototron, Nepenthes, etc. With all this high-tech phototron talk, I was curious about another high-tech approach. Has anyone tried growing CP with CO_2 enrichment systems? Such as the propane oxidation rigs I see for sale in the hydroponics catalogs? -Dave ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 13:23:05 +0100 Subject: Re: non-acidic soils Robert, >>>So are _Pings_ that are said to grow in a neutral or neutral-basic media >>>really doing so? > > I've long wondered about whether acid vs. basic makes any > difference. Years ago it was said that Drosophyllum NEEDED > basic soil. I've grown it in what I presume to be acid soil > with no problems. I mean, do these botanists actually run > around with litmus paper to test the soil mix they find the > plants growing in? (seriously!) Some of them actually do. In some cases (when morphology fails) "species" are defined by the type of soil they were found to grow in. I'm very careful with such differentiation because frequently small patches of humous (acidic) soil accumulate in places which are otherwise dominated by calcareous (basic) earth. And one can never exclude the factors affecting the (present) distribution of certain taxa to be other than geologic. As many cps have a reduced root system (i.e. reduced mineral uptake), it may even be certain plant communities (which in turn may be affected by the soil) rather than specific properties of the substrate which are preferred by the cps. Clearly "calciphilous" elements of the European _Pinguicula_ flora are _P.longifolia_ (all sspp.) and _P.vallisneriifolia_, growing exclusively on north facing wet limestone rocks, but the other spp. may tolerate calcareous soils to a certain degree as well. Kind regards Jan ################### From: Michael Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 07:01:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: Drosophyllum Have any of you Europeans ever visited Drosophyllum in habitat? Michael ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:15:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: non-acidic soils Lime from a local garden store might work although its a fine powder. I don't think you would want to make 33% of your mix powdered lime maybe just 10% ? Jeff (in NC where its &*%$#@ freezing rain :-) ) ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:25:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Phototron, Nepenthes, etc. Doug, Sorry to here about your freeze. We got the same blast, but I think everything I had outside made it (except some _P. caerulea_ when the leaf mulch blew off). I did have frozen and burst pipes too. It was all those AZ folks fault, hogging the warm weather ;-). jeff ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:39:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: ready...... Kirk, I think the 125 grit sand should work fine. Some folks say that their builders sand can have some salt in it and they wash it. I tasted mine (and then spat a lot, no salt though), but just to be on the safe side I put the mix in pots and run some water through it. If nothing else it settles the mix. Just be careful the mix doesn't wash out the bottom and leave a large space, the tray water needs to contact the mix to absorb. later. Jeff ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:46:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: ready and waiting.... I think the problem was on my end. our mainframe's been up and down and since it handles the mail messages both ways were held up. I think grit size is probably not terribly important if the sand is clean. The stuff I've got looks like granulated sugar. Jeff ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 08:54:53 MST Subject: soil mixes >I've long wondered about whether acid vs. basic makes any difference. >Years ago it was said that Drosophyllum NEEDED basic soil. I've grown >it in what I presume to be acid soil with no problems. I mean, do these I've read it too, but I think it's nonsense. I've never grown it in anything other than milled _Sphagnum_ (not great results), or sand/peat (good results) which is what Paul McMillan uses with great results. Right now I have them in a 5 gallon pail: the top layers are sand/peat, the bottom is sand/gravel/rocks, and the middle layers grade smoothly between these mixes. >ping soil i use is the one recomended for mex pings by the ping >study group. by volume: 2 parts corse perlite > 3 parts corse vermiculite Thanks for this info, Kevin. Does the Ping study group suggest anything for European-hibernaculum forming species? I am trying some _P.longifolia_. For now I have them in a pot of vermiculite, with a thin top covering of sand so I don't lose the hibernacula... In the spirit of experimentation, I've ordered some Osmunda from Mellingers to see what that stuff is like. Orchid growers have loved this for a long time, but I guess it's too expensive now. I'm hoping I may be able to use some of it for a few epiphytic _Utrics_. I've never seen the stuff! #125 grit sounds kind of small. The builder's sand I use is called #30 mesh size. Have you seen the white sand used in hotels for cigarette ash-trays? It's the same thing. Granulated sugar or salt is a good analogy. Thanks for that information about the diatomaceous earth. I was unaware it was made of silica! I would have thought the shells were made of Calcium Carbonate, like the rest of the reef-builders in the ocean... >I had outside made it (except some _P. caerulea_ when the leaf mulch blew >off). I did have frozen and burst pipes too. ****** ***** ***** Hah hah hah! :) (sorry) But I left Chicago for a reason! B ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 11:19:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: soil mixes Barry, Osmunda looks like balls of black/brown wirey roots, easily attached to limbs boards etc. I use it for bromeliads, but haven't had any epi. utrics. to try it on. It should work great for any species which need very open, fast drying medium. Its open enough you can even work strands of long fiber sphag. into it to hold moisture a little longer. Jeff P.S. we'll see whose laughing is August ;-)! ################### From: zxmxo07@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Joachim Nerz) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 18:21:05 +0100 Subject: Introduction of myself Hello Ladies and Gentlemen, I want just tell you some words about my own. I am new now in the CP-pool and at e-mail, so please forgive me for some formal failures and for my horrible swabian-english. I'm happy, that I have now the possibility to participate at your CP-pool. I'm doing that from the Dept. of Genetics at the University of Tuebingen. Concerning Carnivorous Plants, my main-interests are at moment at Nepenthes and Heliamphora. Besides that, I've started now In Vitros also with other genera. I cultivate my plants in the greenhouse and in cellar with lights (It's much better for seedlings). The information about the CP-pool I've got from Jan Schlauer. It's funny, if I look out of my window, I nearly can see his laboratory, so we are something like neighbours. O.k., that's all for this evening, what I want to tell you. I hope, we will have still some fine contacts. See you Joe (Joachim Nerz, but my friends call me just with the short one. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:21:48 +0800 Subject: Re: ready...... >>Kirk, >>I think the 125 grit sand should work fine. Some folks say that their >>builders sand can have some salt in it and they wash it. I tasted mine >>(and then spat a lot, no salt though), but just to be on the safe side I >>put the mix in pots and run some water through it. If nothing else it >>settles the mix. Just be careful the mix doesn't wash out the bottom and >>leave a large space, the tray water needs to contact the mix to absorb. >>later. I always wash my horticultural sand, just to be sure. It's cheap insurance against dead CP. Robert ################### From: nagles@iia.org (Scott Nagle) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 12:29:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: New here... Hi my name is Scott Nagle from New Jersy. I have an interest in keeping Venus Fly Traps (don't ask me for the scientific name) and also would like to keep Pitcher Platns in the Future. My questions right now are what are the proper conditions to keep the VFT's in? I have mine right now in a 5 gallon aqaurium with peat moss and a cover (hood) with a light to keep moisture in. Also, do any of you know good (inexpensive) mail order places to get plants from. Any help would be appreciated as I am a ametuer. Thanks. ################### From: Kevin Snively Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:30:04 -0800 Subject: Re: Introduction of myself welcome Joe nice to see you here! Barry the reason i told you about the mexican mix is that i grow "ALL MY PINGS" on the stuff. _P. lutea_, _P. lusitanica_, _P. macroceras_ ect... a fiew colinies remain on peat but at this time i am no longer using peat for any transplanting seed sowing new arivals or other wise in the cultivation of _Pinguicula_ those plants i'm not selling that are on peat will be transplanted by the end of the summer of 1994, igor stop the expermints my monster lives! kevin ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:54:36 +0800 Subject: Re: New here... >> Hi my name is Scott Nagle from New Jersy. I have an interest >>in keeping Venus Fly Traps (don't ask me for the scientific name) and >>also would like to keep Pitcher Platns in the Future. >> My questions right now are what are the proper conditions to >>keep the VFT's in? I have mine right now in a 5 gallon aqaurium with >>peat moss and a cover (hood) with a light to keep moisture in. Since this is winter and you're in New Jersey, both VFTs and Sarracenia should be dormant. They won't go dormant however unless you shorten the photoperiod and cool the temps down. You should also significantly cut back on soil moisture, so it's just damp. That said, if your plants are doing ok right now, you should probably just leave them alone, and let them go dormant next fall, so they can ease into it. Here in the San Francisco Bay Area and peninsula, I grow both VFTs and Sarrs outdoors year round. They don't need jungle levels of humidity to do well. Good growing! >> Also, do any of you know good (inexpensive) mail order places >>to get plants from. Any help would be appreciated as I am a ametuer. >>Thanks. The list server that supports the CP list has some commands to get lists of mail order suppliers. Lees is probably a good source of reasonably priced CP such as you're looking for. Robert ################### From: tomm@ingres.com Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 18:42:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: new case/how to heat hi, If you remember a few months ago I sent out a posting describing a "cheesy Wardian case" I had built with Metro wire racks and a shower curtain. This thing worked fine but it LEAKED and my landlord would have soaked [no pun] me for a security deposit on new carpet. Well, I finally broke down and had a cabinet maker construct a new one. It is built of redwood and acrylic and measure 6' High, 4' wide, 3.5' deep. It is BIG. I should have plenty of room for all of those Lowland nepenthes which were busting out of my old case! In the old case, I heated and humidified with 2 50watt aquarium heaters in large tanks underneath. This worked fine, but ended up killing me in electric bills. Like $40-$50 per month. Yeoh! Now, with this new case, I have bought a warm steam humidifier. I figure I'll have timers kick it on a few times a day to crank up the humidity. But, the big question I have is: How do I heat this beast? Sticking a space heater in there would be like begging for a fire. A kerosene heater would produce fumes. Does anyone have a good suggestion about how to heat it? --tom ################### From: MBT1159@RIGEL.TAMU.EDU Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 21:59:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: new case/how to heat Tom, I am quite new to this server, but I do know that commercial green- houses use propane heaters in order to heat their greenhouses during the winter. The products of a full propane burn are carbon dioxide and water, two things that are quite good for plants. The only problem with such a thing would be a possible fire hazard (different heaters may not pose as much of a hazard as other and that should be looked in to) and an improper burn would produce ethelyne (which causes defoliation). An improper burn is rare, but like I said, I would look in to that. The only other thing I can think of at the moment would be small water tanks heated by compost. I have forgotten how much compost is actually needed to produce what amounts of heat, but we have a compost pile at our Horticulture farm on campus that is normally about 130 degrees F. Putting small containers, say Zip-loc bags, filled with water in the middle of a couple of layers of compost and seeding it with bacteria might produce the heat you need with a place to contain and slowly reradiate the heat (the water) into your chamber. If you don't understand what I mean by this, let me know and I will send you a representation of what I mean. Good luck. -Matthew ################### From: carnipla@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 23:16:49 EST Subject: Re: New here... Scott: The ICPS Seedbank is a good source of CP material, especially for the beginner. If you would like a copy of the Seedlist, drop me an SASE at Tom Johnson, PO Box 12281, Glendale, CA 91224-0981. Or wait until I have it on the network. Tom ################### From: "Andreas Wistuba" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 09:13:40 GMT+1 Subject: Re: Introduction of myself Hi Jo, it's nice to see that you've managed to get through to the list. Welcome! Andreas ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 10:12:34 +0100 Subject: Re: Introduction of myself Hi Joe, Nice to see it finally worked for you to come here (after some problems). Most subscribers to this list do know you already as I have forwarded some information from personal communication with you etc (nil nisi bene, of course). Welcome aboard! Kind regards (from around the corner via USA) 8-) Jan ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 10:13 GMT Subject: RE: new case/how to heat >In the old case, I heated and humidified with 2 50watt aquarium heaters in >large tanks underneath. This worked fine, but ended up killing me in >electric bills. Like $40-$50 per month. This doesn't seem to add up unless electricity over there costs a lot more than over here! 100 watts in total, so 1 kilowatt hour (does everyone use these units?) in 10 hours. In a month, 72 kilowatt hours. Over here, one kilowatt hour costs about 5p or 0.05 UK pounds, so that makes 3.60 pounds per month, or something like $6 (I don't know what the exchange rate is). ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 11:55:40 GMT Subject: Polypompholyx I've just received my seeds from Rowland's (Bedford, UK). I'm confident that I can grow Sarracenia, Drosera, and Utricularia, but have never grown Nepenthes, or Polypompholyx. I've sown the Nepenthes (khasiana, madagascariensis) in the propagator, so will just have to wait and see. I don't ever remember any discussion about Polypompholyx. It's in Slack's book, and sounds easy - just treat like a Drosera. Is this the case? I've got both mentioned species (sorry I can't be sure of the names, is it multifida and tenella?). I believe that they are annual, like Byblis liniflora. For some reason, my Byblis were not so good last year, and I didn't get any seed, so I'll have to hope that my seed collected in previous years still grows. ################### From: zxmxo07@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Joachim Nerz) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 14:00:45 +0100 XSubject: Polypompholyx Hi Clark, about the cultivation of Polypompholyx I just know, that P. tenella is perennial (lives several years) and is growing quite easy, just like Utricularia. P. multifida is realy annual, and you have to collect seed of it. But I've not much experience with it, I've grown it before years, just like Utric's. Bye Joe ################### From: "Michael Hasemann" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 15:16:30 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: your mail > Hi Kirk, hi all the other 140 subscribers, Hi Joe, and the only of you, willkommen an Bord, although this seems to turn out a group for In Vitro Propagators. Upto now I used conventional substrates and techniques but maybe somebody could explain me the basics of In Vitro cultures and propagations and to what extent (if at all) this is feasible for the layman(-woman) for kitchen board experiments. Greetings, Michael -- Michael Hasemann | Technical Research Centre of Finland Electronics Lab. jmh@tko.vtt.fi | Fax: +358 81 5512320 Tel: +358 81 5512230 ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 13:58:07 GMT Subject: In terra propagation Michael, I think that there are still plenty of us out here using 'in terra' propagation, so don't go thinking that soil (do some of our friends like calling it 'dirt'?) was something people used to use back in the 1980s. ################### From: Oliver T Massey(CFS) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 09:43:54 EST Subject: Re: new case/how to heat > Well, I finally broke down and had a cabinet maker construct a new one. It > is built of redwood and acrylic and measure 6' High, 4' wide, 3.5' deep. > It is BIG. I should have plenty of room for all of those Lowland nepenthes > which were busting out of my old case! > > Now, with this new case, I have bought a warm steam humidifier. I figure > I'll have timers kick it on a few times a day to crank up the humidity. > > But, the big question I have is: How do I heat this beast? > Does anyone have a good suggestion about how to heat it? > > --tom Tom: The case sounds great, the humidifier sems like a good idea. I have considered building something similar several times in the past. My hang-up is the cost of double strength glass. Are you sure that heat will be a problem? Your ambient air temp in your home is prob. close to what 70-75F? You really don't need to raise it that much for pleasant, Nepenthes loving temps. As a grad student I lived in married student apartments and used shelving covered with a plastic mattress bag! I achieved warm, humid temps from the heat of the ballast in the fluorescent lights. If you use fluorescents, I believe you can also separate the ballast from the light fixture and put them under the case (assuming you have no moisture problem). By the way, as big as that sucker is, how are you providing light? Is top lighting bright enough for a six foot enclosure, or do you supplement from the side or mid way up? Anyhow, sounds great, I hope it all works out. florida Tom Massey@hal.fmhi.usf.edu ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:25:01 +0100 Subject: _Polypompholyx_ Hi nomenclaturalists, >about the cultivation of Polypompholyx I just know, that P. tenella is >perennial (lives several years) and is growing quite easy, just like >Utricularia. It *is* (not just "like") a _Utricularia_, of course (cf. TAYLOR, 1986). >P. multifida is realy annual, and you have to collect seed of it. >But I've not much experience with it, I've grown it before years, just >like Utric's. This one *is* (not just "like") a _U._, too. Also, "P.westonii" (without proper basionym citation, a combination illegitimately created by our esteemed colleague Allen Lowrie) was originally described as _U.westonii_, and is a perfect link between the sections _Polypompholyx_ and _Pleiochasia_ of the (one) genus _Utricularia_. For further discussion cf. P.TAYLOR's monograph (we've had this one on this list, already). Kind regards Jan ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 15:52 GMT Subject: RE: _Polypompholyx_ So Polypompholyx is really Utricularia then. In Slack's book, he said that the genus was expected to be subsumed into Utricularia, but he hoped not because he liked the name. Still, I liked the picture of them in the book, and I don't mind if I now have 5 packets of U. seed to sow, rather than 3 U. and 2 P. Old timers on the list may remember me asking about U. dusenii after I sowed some (fresh from someone else's plant) towards the end of 1992. They quickly germinated, and then disappeared. Pleased to say that they re-appeared in Spring 1993 (whether from germination of more seed, or from the roots I don't know), and still comprise my only U. (hopefully soon to be joined by the 5, or 3, above). ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 09:43:21 +0800 Subject: Re: new case/how to heat >>Well, I finally broke down and had a cabinet maker construct a new one. It >>is built of redwood and acrylic and measure 6' High, 4' wide, 3.5' deep. >>It is BIG. I should have plenty of room for all of those Lowland nepenthes >>which were busting out of my old case! >> >>In the old case, I heated and humidified with 2 50watt aquarium heaters in >>large tanks underneath. This worked fine, but ended up killing me in >>electric bills. Like $40-$50 per month. Yeoh! >> >>Now, with this new case, I have bought a warm steam humidifier. I figure >>I'll have timers kick it on a few times a day to crank up the humidity. >> >>But, the big question I have is: How do I heat this beast? Sticking a >>space heater in there would be like begging for a fire. A kerosene >>heater would produce fumes. I'd expect that your lights would give off enough heat to keep the thing at a reasonable temp. You could also try laying a soil heating cable (for seed germination) in the case, but I'm not sure how well that would work, or how much power would be used. Given the height of your case, you may have to use a halide lamp to give your plants enough light. In that case you'll probably have more heat than you need. Robert ################### From: nagles@iia.org (Scott Nagle) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 10:43:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Scientific names Was wondering if you or someone else could post a translation between scientific names and common names of the more popular plants. I find it hard to follow some of the conversations since I am not familiar with Latin. ################### From: nagles@iia.org (Scott Nagle) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 10:47:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Seedlist > > Scott: The ICPS Seedbank is a good source of CP material, especially for the > beginner. If you would like a copy of the Seedlist, drop me an SASE at Tom > Johnson, PO Box 12281, Glendale, CA 91224-0981. Or wait until I have it on > the network. > > Tom > Will you be putting it up on the net shortly or will it be a while? Scott ################### From: tomm@ingres.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:25:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: new case/how to heat > Given the height of your case, you may have to use a halide > lamp to give your plants enough light. In that case you'll > probably have more heat than you need. > Yes, I've been thinking of getting Halide lights for this case. I was going to put the lights right above the case. I don't know if that will give heat inside or not. Lots of good suggestions for heating on this list, though! Any idea what sort of wattage I need to light that area? Pierpalo says Nepenthes want 1300 ft candles. I have a Vanda Orchid that wants like 2200ft candles or so. Will I be able to accomplish this magic? Does the amount of light Halide lights put out decrease the same way Florescent lights do? How many foot/candles of light are those of you growing Nepenthes with Halide give them? How about the phototron? --tom ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:45:22 -0800 Subject: Re: Scientific names > Was wondering if you or someone else could post a translation > between scientific names and common names of the more popular plants. > I find it hard to follow some of the conversations since I am not > familiar with Latin. Once you get away from common weeds and crop plants, there is often no common name for a particular plant. That's why scientific names were invented. They provide a documented, unambiguous way to refer to a specific plant, independant of language, country, culture, etc. Latin, being a dead language, was chosen to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. Here are the common names for various CP genera: Drosera Sundew Nepenthes Tropical Pitcher Plant Sarracenia North American Pitcher Plant Pinguicula Butterwort Utricularia Bladderwort Dionaea Venus Fly Trap Drosophyllum Portugese Dewy Pine There are some common names for various species within each genera, but they are extremely variable and depend on who you hang out with. For instance, "Huntsmen's horn" could be a local name for Sarracenia purpurea, or in other parts of the country could be S. rubra, etc. In some cases, it might be the name for some *non* carnivorous plant like an Arum or Lily. It is really best to learn the *real* names. Find yourself a good CP book and look things up when you see the names. In no time at all you'll know them pretty well. -- Rick ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:50:56 -0800 Subject: Re: new case/how to heat > Yes, I've been thinking of getting Halide lights for this case. I was > going to put the lights right above the case. I don't know if that will > give heat inside or not. Lots of good suggestions for heating on > this list, though! Similiar cases that I've seen have used a fan to vent the heat from the Halide lamp out into the room. This prevents the top piece of glass from getting *really* hot. > Any idea what sort of wattage I need to > light that area? Pierpalo says Nepenthes want 1300 ft candles. I have > a Vanda Orchid that wants like 2200ft candles or so. Will I be able to > accomplish this magic? Curtis Tom has a similiar case and has good results w/Nepenthes using (I think) a 400W halide. > Does the amount of light Halide lights put out decrease the same way > Florescent lights do? How many foot/candles of light are those of you > growing Nepenthes with Halide give them? How about the phototron? Halides drop off faster than fluorescent lights because they are closer to a "point source" rather than a "line source". Fortunately Halides start off much brighter than fluorescents. -- Rick ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:50:22 +0800 Subject: Re: Scientific names >> Was wondering if you or someone else could post a translation >>between scientific names and common names of the more popular plants. >>I find it hard to follow some of the conversations since I am not >>familiar with Latin. Latin English ----- ------- Nepenthes Asian Pitcher Plants (not used much) Sarracenia Pitcher Plants Drosera Sundews Dionea Venus Fly traps (VFTs) Drosophyllum "Dewey Pine" (not used much) Pinguicula Butterwort (aka "pings") Utricularia Bladderwort (aka. "utrics") Genlisea Lobster Pot Trap (not used much) Heliamphora Sun Pitchers (not used much) Byblis "rainbow plant"? ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:54:46 +0800 Subject: Re: new case/how to heat >>> Given the height of your case, you may have to use a halide >>> lamp to give your plants enough light. In that case you'll >>> probably have more heat than you need. >>> >> >>Yes, I've been thinking of getting Halide lights for this case. I was >>going to put the lights right above the case. I don't know if that will >>give heat inside or not. Lots of good suggestions for heating on >>this list, though! >> >>Any idea what sort of wattage I need to >>light that area? Pierpalo says Nepenthes want 1300 ft candles. I have >>a Vanda Orchid that wants like 2200ft candles or so. Will I be able to >>accomplish this magic? You may have heat dissipation problems. You'll also have to worry about keeping the light source shielded from human eyes, for viewing safety. You should use reflectors on the outside of the glass when possible. You could use one way mirrored glass like the phototron supposedly does. >> >>Does the amount of light Halide lights put out decrease the same way >>Florescent lights do? How many foot/candles of light are those of you >>growing Nepenthes with Halide give them? How about the phototron? Light decreases the same say, not matter what the source (well, assuming a point source). It decreases with (I think) the cube of the distance from the source. So it's hard to keep the light up in a tall case, when lighting from above. Lighting from the side may be an option to supplement light from above, but then the plants may start growing towards the sides. ################### From: R Britt Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:50:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: new case/how to heat You need to replace the metal halides on a 6-12 month timescale. They fade and also the colors tend to shift too. -rdb ################### From: tomm@ingres.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 14:01:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: new case/how to heat > Similiar cases that I've seen have used a fan to vent the heat from the > Halide lamp out into the room. This prevents the top piece of glass from > getting *really* hot. Hmmm. Here's an unusual thought. Perhaps I could get that fan and pump the heat generated from the lights back into the case. That might just solve all my problems. Is the heat "clean" (no fumes)? --tom --tom ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 18:02:51 MST XSubject: Re: new case/how to heat In part because of a few of my recent _Ping_ questions, Kevin Snively of this group made a heroic effort (doubly heroic since he's sick right now) and typed in two articles from the International Pinguicula Study Group Newsletter. I took these two articles, and cleaned them up only slightly, and am posting them here. This file is being distributed without permission from the IPSG, although as Kevin noted there are no copywrite notices on the Newsletter. Since the information in these articles has gone through two hands (Kevin's and mine) since publication, there may be transcription errors. For the original, consult the IPSG Newsletter. Incidentally, I just got my first copy of the Newsletter (No. 3) and am exceedingly impressed. In this 20 page pamphlet are (apparently) authoritative articles on tissue culture, _P._ X l'hautil, a nomenclatural synopsis of the genus (70 species---Jan, have you seen this?), field notes on _P.vulgaris_, a discussion of _P.colimensis_ vs. _P. hemiepiphytica_, a book review, and a new species described. Also, a few inserts included a cladistic tree of all the Pings, colour photocopies of plants in the wild and cultivation, plus weather data for more than 50 localities in Mexico! What a great Newsletter! One clever trick I've never heard before is described by a hybridizer. He claims that if you want to cross species A and B, where B will be the seed parent, mix B pollen (which you've killed with UV radiation) with A pollen. Apparently, this dead B pollen makes the plant more receptive to the A pollen. Huh. But I'm a little concerned that this guy claims to have produced crosses between _D.capensis_ and _D.binata_, and also between _D. burkeana_ and _D. capensis_, which have since died in seedling stage. Call me a skeptic. To subscribe, write Ron Mudd 10, High Street Wymington Nr. Rushden Northants NN10 9LS England US Cash or pound sterling accepted, send single payment for several issues. Read and enjoy! --Barry *********************************** Taken from The International Pinguicula Study Group Newsletter No. 1 April 1992 _Pinguicula longifolia_ Ram. An introduction to its cultivation based on personal experience in Hampshire, England. by Kevin Hughes _Introduction_ The long leaved butterwort occurs in three distinct ranges in S. W. Europe, each of which contains an isolated subspecies. _P. longifolia ssp. longifolia_ inhabits the central Pyrenees, _P. longifolia ssp. caussensis_ the mountains of south central France, and _P. longifolia ssp. reichenbachiana_ the Maritime Alps and Appenines. Typical habitats are in deep limestone gorges where colonies clad the cliffs on the tufa deposits left by reliable seepages or falls of water. Most colonies are out of direct sunshine and healthy plants can even be found growing in deep shade, underneath overhangs, where the plants cling to the walls, ceiling and stalactites. _P. longifolia ssp. caussensis_ is the smallest subspecies producing, on average shorter leaves and smaller flowers ( corolla : _P. caussensis_ 22--35 mm., _P. longifolia_ 30--46 mm.) The leaves of _P. caussensis_ are also broader relative to length, giving it a superficial resemblance to cliff dwelling plants of _P. leptoceras. The flowers of all the subspecies exhibit a variation of color from purple to light blue and typically have white throats. _Cultivation_ This presents very few problems. This species, with the exceptions of _P. grandiflora_ and _P. lusitanica_ has proved has proven the most adaptable, of the European species, to the maritime climate of South West England. Growth in a mild winter (the last four here) can commence as early as mid-February and this can be a problem. Once growth begins even a mild frost can kill, although the species, when dormant, can withstand temperatures of at least -12 C. Therefore it can not be treated as hardy and needs the protection of a glass house. In mine the nighttime air temperature is allowed to fall to -1 C while the plants are dormant, but no lower than 0 C once growth commences. The largest hibernacula break dormancy first and the plant may then remain active for the next ten months. These larger plants are also the first to bloom; starting in late March and producing up to four flowers per plant. Flowering has finished here by late April. If regularly exposed to temperatures in excess of 18 C the plants respond with early dormancy and this means no flowers next year! Thus it is important to find a cool location in the garden for the summer months, a north aspect being the obvious solution. Alternatively, artificial means of cooling the plants could be sought, although I find this not necessary. should plants go into early dormancy they require treatment which is no different from those remaining in growth i.e. you _do not_ need to put them in the fridge. My experience suggests that this species resents being stood in trays of still water. Instead the potted plants are better stood on damp peat or sand contained within a propagator to maintain high air humidity. This high humidity is vital if healthy leaf growth is desired. If conditions are right the compost will soon be carpeted with moss. This seems to benefit the growing plants but, if left unchecked, weakens them in the long term. Any Liverworts or Fern Prothalli should be removed as they appear. If very vigorous, the mosses will need removing during the growing season, and the pot will need top dressing with fresh compost. With the commencement of growth I start a once monthly-foliar feed with an Orchid fertilizer diluted to 3/4 strength. Other than this the plants take nutrients from their compost and the numerous small invertebrates they capture. Plants are repotted every two years and the top 2 cm. of compost replaced on an annual basis. This species does not keel over and die if transplanted whilst in growth, although I wait until the Autumn dormancy before repotting. The wild habitat suggests a preference for alkaline soils but a compost of neutral or slightly acidic reaction suits them just as well in cultivation. I have now switched from Sphagnum, and Sedge peat to "Coco-peat"as the basis of my potting medium and have experienced no reduction in success. The main problem with the "Coco-peat" is its tendency to succour mildew on the surface when kept wet; this is less of a problem under the cultivation techniques outlined above. For preference i use the compost of 3:2:1:1 of "Coco-peat", Perlite, loam/J. I. No. 1 and coarse sand. To each litre of mix I add 1 Tablespoon of crushed Dolomite lime. Seed is best sown fresh for good germination. No modification of the compost is necessary but moss needs to be kept in check as the minute seedlings struggle to compete with it. _P. longifolia_ makes very few gemmae, none on most smaller specimens, so it is slow to bulk up vegetatively. I find that the gemmae are best separated during the Autumn repot and then treated as normal. Aphids are the main pest, although slugs and snails can wreak havoc. Aphids are easily removed with a fine paint brush and are most damaging when infesting the hibernacula. If not removed quickly, deformed growth may be the result the following spring. The above is a general description of my methods for growing this species and should be treated as a rough guide only - every garden (and gardener) is unique! REFERENCES: Flora Europaea Caspers Monograph Flowers of S. W. Europe, a field guide, Polunin & Smythies ******************* The International Pinguicula Study Group Newsletter No. 1. April 1992 _Pinguicula agnata_? by Ron Mudd _P. agnata_ was originally described by Casper in 1963. He described the plant from material collected by Moore and Wood in 1948, from the state of Hidalgo in Mexico. The original plants, it is said, were found on the lower portion of nearly sheer calcareous north facing cliffs, on dry rocky slopes, at an estimated altitude of 5000'. A summary of Casper's original description states that _P. agnata_ is perennial and consists of a rosette of between 8--12 spatulate to obovate-oblong pale green leaves, each leaf being 35--55 mm. long and 10--15 mm. wide and without an upturned margin. The 1--3 flower stalks are 50--120 mm. long, hairy, and each carry 1 large flower, 18--22 mm. long (including spur). The Isoloba type flower is white to pale blue. The corolla tube is 8--10 mm. long, 3--5 mm. wide and without a palate. The spur is 3--4 mm. long and formes an obtuse angle with the corolla tube. There is no mention of a winter rosette. In his work on carnivorous plants (1986), Slack describes _P. agnata_ as having strap shaped leaves with rounded ends, which are unusually thick and succulent, and forming rosettes to 13 cm. in diameter. The flowers are described as medium sized, wide throated of mauve-blue to pale violet in color with two deep flecks at the base of each. The throat is described as greenish. It is mentioned that no winter rosette is formed. The aim of this piece is two-fold; a) To describe the different plants which are at present being grown as _P. agnata_, and to mention two obviously allied plants. b) To describe my observations of variation which can be induced in one of these types by growing in different cultivation materials. _a)_The Different_Plants._ At present it is apparent that in Europe two plants which are obviously different are being commonly grown as _P. agnata_. The first, (which I shall call "Blue", and to which the work in section b) applies), fits the descriptions of Casper and Slack very well, apart from the fact that it readily forms an obvious "winter" rosette. The second is a smaller plant (5--6 cm. max. diameter in summer rosette), which is very similar in both rosette forms which I shall call "Pale". The flowers of this plant are similar in shape and size to "Blue" but are very much paler in color, indeed the blue areas often appear pale brown/cream. The throat usually appears pale lemon as opposed to the originally described green, however the two flecks mentioned by Slack are apparent but very pale. The summer rosette is very much more ground hugging than in the "Blue" plant where the leaves often point upwards from the surface at many angles. The leaves are much shorter and much more rounded in "Pale", slightly darker in coloring, but are equally as succulent. This plant is akin to the plant shown by Kondo (Carnivorous plants of the world, 1983) as _P. agnata_, and from my own experiences is the one more commonly grown as this plant on the Continent, where as the "Blue" plant is the more commonly grown in Great Britain, (possibly due to Slack's involvement). The "Blue" plant is often cultivated as _P. lilacina_, a mistake which is reinforced by the photograph of it in Kondo. The original description of _P. lilacina_ by Schlechtendal and Chamisso (1830), shows it very different to this plant, (corolla tube with palate), and Casper stresses the obvious close relationship between _P. lilacina_ and the southern U.S.A. species, a comment that cannot be applied to these plants. I believe these "Blue" plants are _P.agnata_ as they conform to the original description. The "Pale" plants are sufficiently different in size, leaf shape, growth patterns and other smaller areas, to be, in my opinion, considered as different species. This, however, rests with the taxonomists and may be resolved one day. This plant is now being imported to Britain, from Holland in large numbers and is being sold in garden centers as _P. agnata_. The differences described above are from my observations of plants grown in identical material (2:3 Perlite:Vermiculite) in identical growing conditions. The size of the leaf and rosette, flower color, time of dormancy and length of flowering period can all be affected by the growing medium as I will endeavour to show later. Although not widely in cultivation at the moment, two other plants which appear to be related to _P. agnata_, and could be confused with this species in leaf and rosette form are P. "Sierra de Tamaulipas" and P. "Ayautla". In the first the leaves are again succulent, strap shaped and pale green. However, once this plant flowers it can no longer be confused with _P. agnata_ . The structural differences between the two flowers can quite clearly be seen, and when the fact that P. "Sirra de Tamaulipas" is white to pale pink is known, the difference is confirmed. The second plant, P. "Ayautla", again possesses pale green succulent leaves, but when the fact that these leaves are hairy on both sides (!) is known any confusion is dismissed. Although these two plants have not been officially described as species to date, I believe that this is to be done in the near future. b)_Different_"composts"_ During 1989 (after many losses of the more delicate pings due to rotting in the previous years), I decided to investigate the use of different growing media in an attempt to overcome this problem. From a growing knowledge of pings, I suspected that a very open, free draining medium, with large pockets of saturated air, would most closely represent the natural growing medium. However as I did not understand which other factors would influence growth and the rot problem, I decided to investigate a wide range of composts. These are listed below; 1. 100% _Sphagnum_ Moss Peat, 2. 50:50 Peat:Sand, 3. 100% Sand, 4. Rockwool/Foam (Wellbanks Orchid Medium), 5. Sponge ( bathroom type), 6. 3:2 Vermiculite:Perlite, 7. 50:50 Peat:Perlite, 8. Brand Potting Compost, The plants used were all from leaf cuttings for the same parent plant. The rootless winter rosettes were laid upon the surface of the composts in January. In February roots were seen to be emerging from the rosettes, and watering (from below) was commenced. All of the pots containing the plants were kept in the same part of the green house and kept at a min temp. of 10 C. Growth commenced well and the first flowers appeared in March. When all were flowering it became apparent that some were considerably paler than others, and as this became more apparent, the more flowers that opened, it was obvious that something was affecting flower color. As everything else was constant, and enough plants had been growing in each medium to rule out mutation, I concluded that it must be the growing medium. This was reinforced as three distinct groups were noticed; 1. Palest - composts 1,2,7,8, 2. Pale - composts 3,4, 3. Vivid - composts 5,6, As the year progressed it also became apparent that similar groups could be formed with respect to the size achieved by the plants, the more open composts producing the larger plants. At the end of the growing season, when watering had been ceased for 4 weeks, i.e. at the end of October, the plants were removed from the growing media. It was apparent at this stage that the roots of the plants in composts 1,2,3,4,7 & 8 had been continually rotting during the growing season, and that although they had been replaced, to varying degrees, were in no way as healthy as the roots of the plants from No. 5 & 6 media. The roots of the plants grown in the Perlite:Vermiculite mix had even retained their very fine root hairs which are apparent on the last 5--6 mm. of the mature roots. Although none of the plants had rotted those in medium 6 were evidently the most healthy plants and so this system has since been adopted with the result that no plants have sence been lost, even in the most delicate "Pings". _Conclusion_ Although the above can only be a brief summary of my trials, my observations of these plants throughout the year convinced me that the appearance of _P. agnata_ can be influenced to such an extent by the growing medium that the same plant must appear quite differently in different collections. However although depth of color and size of rosette may be affected, the shape of the flower and leaf is not, and as I now grow "Blue" and "Pale" in the same medium, this does not account for the differences between these plants. ################### From: Jon Singer (Implications & Consequences) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 17:21:05 PST Subject: Re: Halide lamps and heat There seems to be a perception here that halide lamps generate lots of heat. My understanding is that they are actually _more_ efficient (that is, they generate _less_ heat per watt) than almost any other lamps except high-pressure sodium. Ist das nicht so? jon singer PS: Hi to Bob Beer! ################### From: (Bob Cruder) Date: Fri Jan 28 18:07:13 1994 Subject: Re: new case/how to heat (SMTP Id#: 2909) - Reply Regarding the use of waste heat from a halide lamp to warm the lower reaches of a case: Much of the heat from a halide or sodium lamp comes from the ballast. If you choose a lamp with a remote ballast, you can put the ballast under your case. It also avoids having the weight of the ballast which can be 40 to 80 lbs depending on wattage supported by your glass-sided case. Before you ask... Yes, the heaviest ones for a given wattage are usually the most efficient. Sigh... Bob Cruder - bcruder@miaco.com ################### From: (Bob Cruder) Date: Fri Jan 28 18:00:16 1994 Subject: Re: new case/how to heat (SMTP Id#: 2898) - Reply Regarding the dropoff of light intensity with distance: The inverse square rule holds in free space but may not hold in an enclosed volume. Since the cross-sectional area of a cone of light grows with the square of the distance, a constant amount of light distributed over the increased area would provide an intensity which was diminished by that same ratio. If the cross sectional area illuminated were constrained to a constant value, then the intensity would be constant as well. To put it another way, if you had an evacuated pipe with walls which were perfect reflectors and shined light down it, the intensity would be constant down the length. One can most closely simulate that situation with the aluminized mylar sheeting available at the same indoor gardening stores that sell halide lamps. It provides a smooth surface with greater than 98% reflectance. Do not use aluminum foil. It tends to crinkle on application and even the shiny side has reflectance below 90%. Bob Cruder - bcruder@miaco.com ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 21:36:08 +0800 Subject: Re: Halide lamps and heat >>There seems to be a perception here that halide lamps generate lots of >>heat. My understanding is that they are actually _more_ efficient >>(that is, they generate _less_ heat per watt) than almost any other >>lamps except high-pressure sodium. That may be, but consider much heat 10 40 watt 4' tubes would generate. Even if halides put out less, it could still be a lot. And a 400 watt bulb is apparently one of the smaller ones.. Robert ################### From: Jon Singer (Implications & Consequences) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 22:07:35 PST Subject: Re: Halide lamps and heat Robert Allen makes a good point. I think you can get halide lamps that are only 175 watts, but I think they are a teeny bit less efficient than the 400-watters, which in turn are a teeny bit less efficient than the 1-KW jobs. (I have a 400-watt unit in my greenhouse, and it is BRIGHT. I really like it.) In any case, yes: think about TEN 4' fluorescent tubes and how much heat they generate. (On the other hand, think how much light they put out!) The person who pointed out that you have to relamp about every 6 months also makes a good point. If you do use halide lamps, you should seek out a good source of bulbs at decent prices. On the other hand, I've seen a single 40-watt fluorescent tube go for about half the price of a single 400-watt halide bulb, if the tube was one of those special-spectrum things. (The halide bulb, by the way, very closely approximates daylight, which makes it a fairly decent source.) Cheers again! jon ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 94 09:48:03 MST Subject: lighting >>There seems to be a perception here that halide lamps generate lots of >>heat. My understanding is that they are actually _more_ efficient > That may be, but consider much heat 10 40 watt 4' tubes would > generate. Even if halides put out less, it could still be And don't forget that there are different types of fluorescent bulbs and ballasts. Recently, fluorescent lights with electronic ballasts have come on the market. While more expensive, these produce a fraction of the heat that conventional ballasts produce. In the future I'll buy these for my plant lighting needs, since heat production in terraria is so irritating. I have been growing CP for several years under lights, and have never found any need to get full spectrum bulbs. They are very expensive and the bottom line is that "cool whites" work! Barry ################### From: Clarke Brunt Date: Sat, 29 Jan 94 19:04 GMT Subject: RE: lighting On this questions of lights putting out heat - sometimes desirable and sometimes not... If you have a light, or indeed any electrical device, which uses 100 watts of electrical power, then it is fairly safe to say that you will ultimately end up with 100 watts of heat going somewhere. A very efficient light will emit a greater fraction (though still not very large) of this initially as light. But once the light has bounced around the enclosure and been absorbed, it is turned into heat. I imagine that it is a very tiny fraction indeed of the light which is actually absorbed by the plants and used for photosynthesis. This bit of the energy is temporarily stored as chemical energy in the growing plant, and doesn't finally emerge as heat until the plants rots and the chemicals turn back into the simpler molecules from which they were made. So what I guess I was getting at is: If you have a more efficient light, then you will be able to use one of smaller power and still grow your plants. If you use one of the same power, you will get the same amount of heat - but more of it initially as light. And finally - back to something more interesting: My Cephalotus seeds from Rowland (Bedford, UK) turned up today - the first packet they sent me was accidentally empty, so now they have sent me 2 packets, with 5 seeds in each, as compensation. What do I do with them? Is chilling, as for Sarracenia, needed? Clarke ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 94 21:51:22 MST Subject: Osmunda Fiber Does anyone here know the pH that Osmunda fiber results in? I just got the stuff, and it is weird! I'm wondering if this would make a great soil material for Pings? Don, or anyone who reads the orchid groups, could you post the query there? Thanks B ################### From: R Britt Date: Sat, 29 Jan 1994 21:29:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Osmunda Fiber What is it anyhow? Hair from the Osmund family? ################### From: kirk martin Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 00:43:35 PST Subject: lost my access I'm using a work account to send this so please don't try to mail back to this e-mail address. My worst fear has been realized they figured out i'm not a student any longer and terminated my account. I'll have to work on getting another one quickly or permission to receive my cp stuff on this number. Jeff not sure what happened, I still haven't received the shipment you sent (as of Saturday) It sure as hell isn't two-day or even priority but as they are quick to point out (no guarantees). Hope they didn't get frozen somewhere in a Chicago airport. Even checked my P.O. Box in case Thomas Johnson might have given you that address too: My snail-mail is : kirk martin 1100 VanArsdol St. Clarkston, WA 99403 509 758 4854 Hope your CP's are ok my mom in Massachusetts said the temps reached -26F and two days later was 50. Unfortunately I guess you should Unsuscribe me until my account situation is resolved. Kirk ################### From: carnipla@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 12:21:44 EST Subject: ICPS Seedbank ICPS Seedbank C/O Tom Johnson PO Box 12281 Glendale, CA 91224-0981 Dionea Drosophyllum (2) Drosera adelae redflower (2) D. aliciae D. auriculata (4) D. burkeana (3) D. burmannii (5) D. capensis D. c. alba (7) D. c. red leaf (2) D. c. narrow leaf D. c. wide leaf, dk purplr flower (5) D. capillaris (3) D. cap. alba (4) D. cap. pink (2) D. collinsae (2) D. dielsiana D. filiformis fil D. fil. X Calif Sunset D. glanduligera D. indica (3) D. in rd plt, pk flr D. in. rd plt orange flr D. in grn plt, pk flr D. indica white (10) D. intermedia D. int. Carolina Giant D. int. Giant (2) D. int. Tropical D. int. Brunswick, NC D. int. Mt. roraime (1) D. int. Pine Barrens D. int. Walker Lake (1) D. natalensis (4) D. peltata grn rosette, Molcoa NSW D. neesii neesii D. platypoda D. platystigma D. ramellosa D. rotundifolia D. rot. Bruce Penn, CAN (2) D. rot. Haines, Al (15) D. rot Mendocino Coutny, CA (2) D. rot. Freelton Ont, CAN (10) D. rot. S. Bohema, Czech Rep D. spatulata (6) D. spat aihmi Prefect, Japan D. spat Kansai D. spat jairy sepals, Gympie, Queensland D. spat North Island, NZ (3) D. spat Victoria (3) D. spat Qld, (2) D. spat New Zealand (3) D. spat Hong Kong (4) D. sp. S. Africa Rosette (2) D. sp. Magliesburg (8) Sarracenia alata (3) S. al. NIgrapurpurea (4) S. flava S. fl Fitzgerald GA (10) S. fl all grn (1) S. flava typica NC (5) S. fl Ben Hill Couny, GA S. flava ruby throat (6) S. leucophylla S. leuco all red (7) S. leuco dk purple venation (5) S. leuco yellow flwer, white top (7) S. leuco yellow river Chipola (1) S. minor S. minor Ben Hill cty, GA (6) S. oreophila colored veins, wide mouth (3) S. oreophila pale grn, tall form (12) S. purpurea S. purp purp (9) S. purp ven East NC (3) S. purp ven (6) S. rubra S. rubra gulfensis (2) S. rubra jonesii (11) S. hybrids--inquire if interested Utric. chrysantha U. lateriflora (2) U. uliginosa f. albida (3) U. alpina W. Slovakia (10) P. vulgaris Jeseniky Mts, Czech Republic ( ) indicates number of seed packets in stock if under 15 $1.00 per packet if interested, e-mail your selections to me along with your address and I will mail them out to you within two days. Enclosed will be an invoice for the seed. ################### From: steveb4706@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 13:27:22 EST Subject: Who is Steve Baker I was keeping CP about 15 years ago. Got marriage and interest changed. I just got back keeping CP's Sept. 92. I am many interested in Nepenthes and Pings. I am currently the new editor of the CPN for the ICPS. My main purpose for doing the CPN was to get it back on track and as the membership increased to improve it. So if you are not a member of the ICPS please join today or have not renewed do so today. We need your support. If I can help you please let me know. I can be reached at STEVEB4706@AOL.COM or by US Mail at the following address: Rt.1, Box 540-19AB, Conover, NC 28613 or by Phone : 704-256-7035 their is an answering mach. if not at home please leave message. h ################### From: Michael Chamberland Date: Sun, 30 Jan 1994 12:07:05 -0700 (MST) Subject: Cactus group Has anyone received mail from the cactus group? I susbscribed to the address posted here, but have not received mail. Perhaps I did something wrong? Michael (defector!) ################### From: steveb4706@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 19:02:22 EST Subject: LOOKING FOR N. BICALCARATA I AM LOOKING TO GET N. BICALCARATA AND N. MIRABILIS "ECHINOSTOMA" IF YOU HAVE PLEASE LET ME KNOW THE COST. OR IF YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN TRADING. ################### From: zxmsl01@studserv.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (Jan Schlauer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 11:20:50 +0100 Subject: _Pinguicula_ vs. study group Barry, >(...)_P._ X l'hautil ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Is this described as a new cultivar (with photo and parentage), or is it just another junk name? >, a nomenclatural synopsis of the genus (70 species---Jan, have you >seen this? No, but I remember having published a list (under a similar name but with fewer species recognized valid) six years earlier in CPN. ;-) Does it contain bogus (or even *valid*) names not yet included in my list? >(...) and a new species described. What is the name (author, page no., type) of this new species? > _Pinguicula longifolia_ Ram. > An introduction to its cultivation based on > personal experience in Hampshire, England. > > by Kevin Hughes _Introduction_ > > The long leaved butterwort occurs in three distinct ranges >in S.W. Europe, each of which contains an isolated subspecies. This (slightly outdated) information is apparently derived from CASPER's monograph (1966). Indeed, there are 4 sspp. (the 4th to be validated soon...). The range of _P.l.ssp.reichenbachiana_ is rather two or even three different mountain systems, separated from each other. Not surprisingly, this ssp. is excessively polymorphic. One of the forms from Abruzzo has even been described as an independent species (_P.fiorii_), the "differences" not being sufficiently constant, and the population being truly sympatric with _P.l.ssp. reichenbachiana_, it has to be reduced to synonymy. > _P. longifolia ssp. longifolia_ inhabits the central Pyrenees, >_P. longifolia ssp. caussensis_ the mountains of south central France, and >_P. longifolia ssp. reichenbachiana_ the Maritime Alps and Appenines. The 4th ssp. comes from the mountains near Tortosa, Spain. > _P. longifolia ssp. caussensis_ is the smallest subspecies The 4th ssp. is sometimes even smaller. >The International Pinguicula Study Group >Newsletter No. 1. April 1992 > > _Pinguicula agnata_? > by Ron Mudd > (...) Although these two plants have not been officially described as >species to date, I believe that this is to be done in the near future. I hope not (not at specific rank, at least!). I have mentioned already that _P.agnata_ is *EXTREMELY* widespread and variable. Kind regards Jan ################### From: zxmxo07@student.uni-tuebingen.de (Joachim Nerz) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 12:53:47 +0100 XSubject: _Pinguicula_ vs. study group Hi Michael, nice to hear from you. Don't worry, In Vitro culture is nothing, which you realy need. It's just nice to play with and you can get a good mass of plants in a short time of some species. The system is quite easy, you cultivate it on a medium like gelatine (agar) with a special mix of nutrients. If you want to divide it or to get roots, you can give them hormones to control itl. I'm sorry, but I think, you won't get happy, if you want to do it in your kitchen, because you need a space to work on, which is free from contaminants (special clean-boxes or sth. like this), if you want to get happy with it. So don't worry, you don't need this system, most of my plants I also grow on earth like most of you. See you Joe ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 10:24:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: CP INDEX HELP Hi Steve! It's nice to finally have someone in my geographical backyard! I live in Pittsboro, just south of Chapel Hill, although I'm originally from the Winston-Salem area. I just got back into CP last year after a 7 year hiatus and am currently restarting my collection. While I currently have a little bit of everything, I have a special interest in _Drosera_. As to your question: Queries have to be sent to "listserv@opus.hpl.hp.com". No quotes. As the sole text put in "HELP" for help; "INDEX CP" for an index. Again no quotes. Once you get the index and help lists I think the command is something like "GET CP filename" to get a specific file. If you have problems e-mail me. If you are interested in getting together sometime let me know. I'm planning head to the Green Swamp sometime this spring if that sort of thing appeals to you. Take care. Jeff ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 08:45:00 MST XSubject: Re: CP INDEX HELP >What is it anyhow? Hair from the Osmund family? :) Osmunda fiber is the fibrous root mass from one or two species of fern, maybe _Osmunda regia_ (or _regalis_?) is one of them. >Subject: Who is Steve Baker Steve, welcome on board. Barry Meyers-Rice here! >>(...)_P._ X l'hautil ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Is this described as a new cultivar (with photo and parentage), or is it >just another junk name? It discusses parentage, but I don't recall if a photo is included. Barry ################### From: (Bob Cruder) Date: Mon Jan 31 10:19:09 1994 Subject: Re: Halide lamps and heat (SMTP Id#: 2935) - Reply While halide lamps are more efficient than either incandescents or flurescent lamps, one should normally plan to dissipate half of the rated wattage as heat. The heat load is distributed between the ballast and the bulb. The heat from the ballast can be used as bottom heat or could at least be dissipated away from the plants. The heat load from the bulb is only partly radiated heat. Much of it is convected heat. Most of the reflector hoods for halide bulbs have vents around the bulb to dissipate the convected heat without it getting to the plants. These are baffled with reflected material so that little light exits via that path. The 1000 watt halide bulb is not necessarily more efficient than the 400 watt bulb. It varies with brand and technology. Generally LPS bulbs are the most efficient at all wattages but are difficult to find above 175 watts and have a narrow yellowish sprectrum. HPS are next and are available from 175 watt up to 1000 watt with similar efficiencies and lifetimes but are biased toward the long end of the spectrum favoring flowering over vegetative growth. Next are the enhanced halides, which will have "agro" somewhere in their names. They are more neutral and less biased towards the short end of the spectrum. They are somewhat more expensive than basic halides. Among the basic halides, the normal recommended lifetime for the 1000 watt bulb is half that of the 400 watt bulb. The better spatial distribution of light from two 400 watt bulbs and the energy savings makes two 400's a slightly better deal than one 1000 for a hobby lighting area. There is little evidence that the efficiency of the HPS or MH bulbs decline much with age. The spectrum does change as does the power consumption due to some of the radiant elements diffusing out through the bulb envelope. It may be that the used bulbs are better for some purposes even though their total luminance is lower. Bob Cruder - bcruder@miaco.com ################### From: WELCH@NIEHS.NIH.GOV Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 13:41:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Osmunda Fiber If I remember to bring some in I'll test the pH of Osmunda fiber tomorrow. So place your bets now for acidic, basic, or neutral ;-). Jeff ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 11:48:43 MST Subject: Re: Halide lamps and heat (SMTP Id#: 2935) - Reply My question about lamps, fluorescent, incandescent, and halides, is the following... If you buy a 100W lamp of any type, doesn't that mean that you are expected to get 100W of radiant energy out of the thing? And so if you have a 100W lamp with 50% efficiency, doesn't that mean you're going to be consuming 200W of power? Of course, then you have to convolve the spectrum with the plant's wavelength requirements to determine the light's true usefulness, as you suggested.. B ################### From: Oliver T Massey CFS Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 15:04:10 EST Subject: Re: Halide lamps and heat (SMTP Id#: 2935) - Reply > > If you buy a 100W lamp of any type, doesn't that mean that you are expected > to get 100W of radiant energy out of the thing? And so if you have a 100W > lamp with 50% efficiency, doesn't that mean you're going to be consuming > 200W of power? > > B > Barry: I believe that you cannot automatically equate the wattage of a light bulb of any type to the visible light output. Watts are a measure of current (?amps x volts). Ratings are a measure of the electricity the bulb consumes, not the efficiency or output. One reason fluorescents are recommended as energy savers. Back to the original question, if the edwardian needs extra warmth, another good bet would be a 25 or 40 watt incandescent. I suggest this because using halide or fluorescent ballasts to warm the enclosure will only be effective when the lights are on. The biggest concern for lower temps is likely to be late at night or very early - say 3-5AM. Your house will usually be coolist at this time, as are outdoor temps. An incandescent is actually a lousy light source, except for maybe us humans, but a good heat source. Even during the short winter light cycle you can leave the incandscent on without providing any real light to your Nepenthes, while still providing viewing and warmth. I would guess that two 25 watt bulbs for heat would be more than enough for a dislay case even as large as described. Tom Massey@hal.fmhi.usf.edu ################### From: Rick Walker Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 12:43:53 -0800 Subject: Re: Halide lamps and heat (SMTP Id#: 2935) - Reply Barry, > If you buy a 100W lamp of any type, doesn't that mean that you are expected > to get 100W of radiant energy out of the thing? And so if you have a 100W > lamp with 50% efficiency, doesn't that mean you're going to be consuming > 200W of power? A "100W" lamp uses 100W of electrical power (about 100/120 = .8 amps). Every bit of energy you put in comes out as "light". However, only a very small fraction of that "light" is visible. Most of it is at such a long wavelength that it is usually called "heat". (eg: blackbody radiation at 2500-3500K). I think a few percent efficiency is common for incandescent bulbs. That means for every 100W electrical input, you get ~4% visible power out. Fluorescents are several factors more efficient. Thats why you can buy bulbs that are advertised as the "light output of a 100W incandescent, with only 26W power draw". -- Rick ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 12:58:26 +0800 Subject: Refresher course on listserv commands. >> You mentiond to me a few days ago that the mail server here >>had commands to get mail order list for plants. What are those >>commands? Thanks.. >> >> >>Scott To get the list of CP sellers, send email to "listserv@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com" with the following line in the body of the message: "get CP cp.suppliers" Robert ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From server@jr.hpl.hp.com Wed Jan 13 11:35 PST 1993 Comment: Carnivorous Plants Distribution List Originator: cp@opus Version: 5.41 -- Copyright (c) 1991/92, Anastasios Kotsikonas To: Multiple recipients of list >From Michael: > Huomenta (Good morning), > > somehow it got into my mind, probably I have read some contributions > posted to our listserver, that I should be able to request a cp.seller- > list and various other things at our listserver. > I am interested to do that and I think other people might not be aware > of this possibility, either. I would be glad if you could post this > valuable piece of information to our listserver. Here's a refresher on how the listserver works. (Oldtimers can quit reading here...) There are two address involved: 1) cp@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com 2) listserv@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com Any mail sent to the first address is automatically forwarded to all of the cp list subscribers. Mail sent to the second address is used to make requests of the server program. It is usually never read by a human, and must be in a precise format. Your request should be put in the body of the mail message. Multiple requests per message are allowed, but they should be one request per line. If the server encounters an invalid request, it will abort processing at that line and send an error message back to the requester. If you put a signature on the end of your message, the server will treat this as an invalid request. Here is a list of the requests that the server will recognize. Everything appearing in [] below is optional; everything appearing in <> is mandatory. help [request] -------------- Without arguments, this file. Otherwise get specific information on the selected topic. For example, if you wanted help on unsubscribing, you could send the one-line message: "help unsubscribe". set CP [