################### From: mjc Date: Thu, 03 Jan 91 08:26:19 MST Subject: cold Well, I am back from Connecticut! While I was away we had record cold and record SNOW here in Arizona, so I had a little unwitting experiment in cp cold tolerance for my outdoor plants. Fortunately all my outdoor stuff is expendable. I don't know how cold it got, or for how long; plus I can't make much of what microclimate surrounded each plant wherever it was placed, but here is the list; make of it as u wish:::: Pretty much killed by subzero temps: D. montana D. natalensis U. sp. 'Venezuelia',U. calycifida, older D. burmanii plants. (often low-growing seedlings of these pulled through. Plants which didn't like the cold, may have lost leaves, but survived: D. lovellae, D. capillaris, D. burkena, Plants which were unphased by the cold: D. rechingeri, D. roseana, D. capensis, U. longifolia, Drosophyllum, U. subulata, North American Droseras, pings, sarrs. MJC ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 91 11:47:53 +1100 Subject: Re: cold >Well, I am back from Connecticut! While I was away we had record cold >and record SNOW here in Arizona, so I had a little unwitting experiment >in cp cold tolerance for my outdoor plants. Fortunately all my outdoor >stuff is expendable. I don't know how cold it got, or for how long; >plus I can't make much of what microclimate surrounded each plant >wherever it was placed, but here is the list; make of it as u wish:::: We've just had a heat wave with two consecutive days of 40+'C, with night temperatures in the low to mid 20's. Luckily humidity was around the 50-70% mark - Darwin and the Kununurra area has these sorts of temperatures for a large portion of the year with 80-100% humidity ... >Plants which were unphased by the cold: >D. rechingeri, D. roseana, D. capensis, U. longifolia, Drosophyllum, >U. subulata, North American Droseras, pings, sarrs. I doubt that there is anything that will kill a D. capensis :-) ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 91 12:13:33 +1100 Subject: Re: time >Dear Paul 'Falconeri'; I was curious. I have often received messages >from you in the middle of the day, often these are quick responses to >messages I have recently sent out. Now, is it true that daytime here >is nighttime at your place? If so, are you up all night at the >computer?!? You might notice that some notes arrive a day *before* they were sent :-) I generally reply to mail as soon as I receive it, hence the quick response. Having modem access to RMIT/VUT means that I am not limited to access during office hours (in fact, it is currently my only means of access), which is probably why time differences don't make a big difference to response times. >The reason I ask about this daytime phenomenon is because I figure that I may >have better luck growing Australian droseras (under lights) if I illuminate >them at NIGHT rather than in the day! >Actually this may be true (not because of diurnal cycles) but because >here in AZ it is very hot indoors even under flourescent lights. If >the lights are turned on in the night rather than the day, some of the >heat problem can be avoided. If the terrarium is in one's house, the >lights can be on at night (when one will most likely have the air >conditioner on (to sleep) and when one is most likely to be around to >enjoy the plants.) Have u tried this, Barry? The heat/dark, light/cool cycle may disturb the plants more that just extra heat during the day. The weather around Perth is probably similar to that in Arizona so "natural" conditions would probably suffice. I'll give you Perth's statistics for you to compare with: JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC MAX ('C) 31.4 31.7 29.5 25.2 21.4 18.8 17.7 18.3 20.0 22.3 25.4 28.5 DAYS 8 7 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 4 >35'C MIN ('C) 16.7 17.3 15.7 12.6 10.2 9.1 8.0 7.9 8.7 10.1 12.3 14.6 SUN 10.8 10.2 9.1 7.3 6.1 5.0 5.4 6.4 7.4 8.9 9.9 10.7 (hrs/day) RAIN (mm) 7 13 14 44 122 177 172 139 67 48 25 12 RAINDAYS 3 3 4 8 14 17 18 17 14 11 6 4 ################### From: mjc Date: Fri, 04 Jan 91 12:18:18 MST Subject: whether or not Earl, Hmm, as I recall you said you were growing plants in a greenhouse? you tried cp outdoors? It would seem like many species would probaly do well in your climate, simply in pots set in a tray of water. Greenhouses can get rather stifling for plants in warm places. Paul 'Falconeri" Thanks for the Perth data! I will have to find an Arizona almanac now, and cross-reference. (I am not as used to the metric temps as I should be). Yeah, Arizona has a lot of nice scenery and great hiking country. For what this state lacks in culture and civilized mentality, it still is a great place to be if there aren't any Arizonians nearby! MJC ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 91 17:50:54 mst Subject: Re: cold I wonder if the crazy freezing weather in California has hurt many of the growers out there... In particular, I wonder how Gordon Snelling is fairing... Goddamn weather! Three nights on the telescope, and it looks like I'm gonna get rained out again... Last night it was so foggy on Kitt Peak that the visibility was about 30 ft (or 10 meters to the more civilized of us, or 1E9 angstroms for anyone microscopic). Barry ################### From: mjc Date: Mon, 07 Jan 91 10:57:10 MST Subject: stuff Barry; I just got a letter from Gordon. He says he has had a few casualties, but no major losses from the record cold. Note: he also says that Byblis gigantia is one plant which does NOT like Diazanon! Earl: I am not too sure about growing Nepenthes outside. You would be best to experiment with extras. Are your Nepenthes doing alright in the greenhouse? They can take stifling hot humid conditions better than any other cp, in fact most require it. Otherwise, I bet you could grow just about every other cp sp. outside. Don't worry about the humidity being too low outdoors. If I can grow cp outdoors in Arizona, you should have no problem! Just set the pots in a tray of water, and try to work them up into full sun. Avoid too quick a transition to the sun, But try to get them as much ligt as possible. Most sp. have their best color in good light. I have had the best luck with Drosera outside. Ordinarily, the common Drosera are very easy to grow. My guess is that your greenhouse envioronment was responsible for your loss of this genus. I grow Drosera in a greenhouse in AZ, but this g-house is heavily air-conditioned. It is kept pretty cool and and very dry. MJC ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 91 13:04:28 mst XSubject: Re: stuff Paul, I just can't gripe enough about how you live in such a CP rich region..... Thanks for all the info about glanduligera and temps. I am trying my glanduligera in deep, sand/peat (3 to 2) pots, and am starting to get a lot of seedling activity. As Michael mentioned, we've had some freak weather in the Western U.S. I was out of town for the holidays, but apparently parts of Tucson got 6 inches of snow!!! This is a town in which perhaps once a year we'll get 1/4" of snow that melts by noon. >AZ it is very hot indoors even under flourescent lights. If the lights are >turned on in the night rather than the day, some of the heat problem can be >is most likely to be around to enjoy the plants.) Have u tried this, Barry? Yeah Mike, I have subjected my plants to lots of strange photoperiod experiments. The terrarium in my office is on a reversed schedule right now for two reasons. One is that the fixtures are cheap and buzz and drive me crazy, so I have them on when I'm not at work. Secondly, I tend to get distracted by them when I'm working! Timers to turn lights on and off are cheap and cost about $11 (US) around here. >I doubt that there is anything that will kill a D. capensis :-) Well, Paul, I can tell you that my `wide-leaf' clones of capensis are VERY fragile. I have killed Many of these! >civilized mentality, it still is a great place to be if there aren't any >Arizonians nearby! Thanks a lot, Michael! (sniff) :-) Well, as I said, I'm back from the holiday excursions and useless observing trip to a rainy mountain. No science done. My mailbag was quite full! In my off hours on the mountain I brought my tool chest and took advantage of the relatively mild temperatures in Tucson by ripping out the electrical system in the Greenhouse and rewiring it with a much better thermostat. I figured out a way to use a single thermostat to A)power the heater if it gets too cold B)Power my cooler at low speed if it gets too hot C)Power my cooler at high speed if it gets even hotter I am pleased with myself. I notice that with the onset of cooler weather I'm starting to get some flowering in my Utricularias. Namely, the livida that I have from Gordon and Rob are flowering, and the graminifolia from Rob is producing inflorescences as well. This is the plant that we thought was reticulata for a while. The plant that Paul McMillan has that HE thought might have been reticulata is going to flower as well...possibly more graminifolia? Paul got his "reticulata" long ago from WIP, and I bet that that's where Rob's clone originally came from (so many trades ago). My B. gigantea continues to grow, as does my D. regia. The B. liniflora `Kununurra' that I grew from seed from Allen is about to flower, and I can say that it is noticeably different from the liniflora clones that are commonly in cultivation. The plant is a little taller, by about 30%, but the internodal distance is greater, so the plant has a lankier look (although it is robust). The stem is also rather reddish, producing an interesting colour contrast. I haven't caught it in flower yet. I'll keep you posted on flower morphology and seed production. The seed production on my D. indica is good. I have decided that this is a very nice plant if you can get it to flowering size. It needs a big pot, though, as it topples over early on (and that is in full sun). I talked to Gordon Snelling last night. He verifies what Michael said, i.e. he's doing alright in spite of the freezes he's been having. He said that it did set his D. petiolaris `Kununurra' back a bit. Well, that's all for now. I have to go and work on my class syllabus for Astronomy 101. Barry P.S. Earl, are you growing the standard form of D. capensis? That's a super easy grower... ################### From: mjc Date: Mon, 07 Jan 91 16:10:36 MST Subject: utrik flowere My U. livida is pumping up flowers. The last I looked they were about ready to open... they are white and not so "livid" as I had imagined. Nevertheless they are fairly large. U. prehensilis also is a' scaping, but not s' scaping as i imagined it might. I thought this one put up a long flower stalk that would lash back n' forth like a bullwhip untill it lashed its strangling grip about whatever solid matter it encountered. So far it is just growing straight up. It doesn't even move. MJC ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 91 10:56:18 mst XSubject: Re: utrik flowere > No, not growing any sundews now. Don't know what I had before.... >I did have a specie that grows in the Alakai swamp here on Kauai >before but that too died after awhile. Supposedly, we have one >native cp here in Hawaii...that sundew in the Alakai swamp. Well, if you send me an address, I can ship out some small plants of a vigorous capensis clone. I haven't got any seeds because I nip off their flower buds as they form, but I am sure that plants or root cuttings would survive the trip. It is probably the easiest Drosera species to grow. There is no dormancy period. The Hawaiian native CP that you have is, I think, a tropical form of D. intermedia. This plant is common in the eastern US, where it forms hibernacula (winter resting buds) during the cold season. If I remember, your intermedia either does not form such buds, or it grows as an annual. I have recently gotten an intermedia `Cuba' from Rob, and am curious to see if it produces such a winter bud. Anyway, it is possible that your intermedia just died its normal death as it tried to get ready for winter hibernation but was forced (by warm conditions) to continue to grow. Who knows how long that species has been in Hawaii, trying to adapt (rhetorical question)? You probably were trying to grow a plant that is just barely hanging in there in the first place! >My U. livida is pumping up flowers. The last I looked they were about >ready to open... they are white and not so "livid" as I had imagined. >Nevertheless they are fairly large. Yeah, this clone of livida isn't very livid. There is a lot of colour variation within the species. Look for a white corolla, with a lilac dusting on the lower lip, and a dash of yellow as well. You say your livida flowers are large? Mine are less than 1cm in length... >U. prehensilis also is a' scaping, but not s' scaping as >i imagined it might. I thought this one put up a long flower stalk >that would U. prehensilis does not have to be prehensile. I have only had one scape ever form, but it aborted. Look for a yellow, spurred flower. BAMR ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 91 08:54:09 +1100 XSubject: Re: utrik flowere My livida flowers open white, and gradually darken to a violet/lilac color (fairly pale), with a greenish-yellow streak, as they grow older. I think I read somewhere that it needs some sun for good coloration. ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 91 23:44:50 mst XSubject: Re: utrik flowere >My livida flowers open white, and gradually darken to a violet/lilac color >(fairly pale), with a greenish-yellow streak, as they grow older. I think I >read somewhere that it needs some sun for good coloration. Hmm. I'll watch mine, but I think that mine matured without getting very much past light light lilac. I grow most of my CPs in full sun, although I know that I shouldn't on some. ################### From: mjc Date: Fri, 11 Jan 91 12:48:10 MST Subject: tubers HELP! I have just ordered some tuberous drosera tubers. I forgot how helpless I am with these! Does anyone have some suggestions, do's and dont's about growing them? I would really like to get mine growing an a northern Hemisphere cycle. I think I will try an experiment on one of the less desirable tubers. Giberellin is a plant hormone which can be used to break dormancy in seed and other under- ground plant organs. I will see if a little giberellin dip might get one of these tubers growing. Barry: you wanted to keep yours dormant by planting them and keeping them warm? My uneducated guess would be that if you want to keep them dormant, keep them right in the bag. As soon as you bury those puppies they will be exposed to every kind of fungus, bacteria, virus, slime mold, insects, protists, and alga which breed in the dirt. Plant them if they start to grow in the bag. I would also say, keep them cool rather than warm. They are trying to ride out the hot Australian summer, but the tubers are cool and deep down under (the soil). My big question is: what triggers the end of dormancy. Is it an internal (hormonal) or enviromental (temp, moisture) signal??? Barry, if you are writ- ing Lowrie again I would ask him everything about dealing with dormancy. MJC ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 91 21:57:10 +1100 XSubject: Re: tubers >HELP! I have just ordered some tuberous drosera tubers. I forgot how >helpless I am with these! Does anyone have some suggestions, do's and >dont's about growing them? If you bought them from Allen Lowrie, don't kill them ;-) His prices are a bit expensive, but his range of plants is excellent. Last resort only for me... I probably gave my seeds too much heat, which would explain why only I only got 3 (? - 1 survivor) seedlings. The main element you want is heat & ash, not necessarily flames, so straw/grass etc. would be perfect. I used straw with some methylated spirits to kick start it (probably my mistake). The survivor is over 3 feet high, but is starting to die back rapidly after 2 years of constant growth. The small side shoot about an inch from the base has died back a bit too, but this is probably where I will cut the stem (argh!) once the top dies back. >In spite of Paul T.'s words of gloom the rosettes continue to enlarge. Of >course, this is a relative term, as the largest few rosettes are perhaps only >6mm in diameter. I am hoping that they get relatively large before they >flower. I want to get self-sustaining on this plant. I'm still waiting to plant my seed (mid-summer here), so can't add anything to the comments I posted from other growers. I can't vouch for their validity - the same grower also said that U. australis was difficult to grow in containers ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 91 18:39:42 MST XSubject: Re: tubers >After a great deal of worrying, it appears that our Byblis gigantea has >survived its dormancy. The side shoot has quite a number of leaves about >an inch long, I took my B. gigantea out of the greenhouse today to tuning-fork pollinate it, and had it in the sun for only about 5 minutes and it started to wilt! I frantically stowed it back in the G-house. I have to go back and make sure it's OK :( >>Does anyone know of a source of (natural) CP bogs of North America? >Doug, the book "Carnivorous Plants of the US and Canada" by Don Schnell >has good general maps for each species. It doesn't pinpoint the bogs >and wetlands Bog-finding just isn't easy, unfortunately. If I were planning a US trip to go CPing, I think I'd either head to the South Carolina area, or to the Mobile Bay area. First thing I'd do is call Bruce Bednar or O. Clyde Bramblett and ask the m what they think. They do a lot of bogging down there. Best thing is to get some local expertise. I've discovered, from my own goofing around, that you can get to just a few hundred feet of prime CP territory and not know it. Another route is to plop down in prime CP territory (like South Carolina) and blow a day in the herbarium researching recent collections. That's what I've done and it work s pretty well. I got some seeds of those Nepenthes you mentioned from the seed bank, and am trying to get them going. I tried Mike's method of putting them in a pot of soil in a baggie that was microwaved (introducing seeds AFTER the microwaves) but I think that the seeds are getting killed by fungus. Last time I listen to Mike! :) Well, I finally got to look through this Peter Taylor double issue of CPN. I have a couple of comments, since I seem to have been given the title of Utricularia fiend... I think that the treatment of the N. American Utrics is great, with two keys to ID your plants. Also the notes on each species are great, with ranges for the plants (which makes up for the lack of range maps). It's also very nice for the CP-horticulturist that he includes information which is the closest he ever gets to growing instructions, like ``....habitat is wet sand or peat or in shallow water....'' That he included this info, which is very sparse in his monograph, is probably because of prodding from Don Schnell who always suggests I include this kind of information in the stuff I've written for the mag. Usually a clear writer, Taylor makes a goof on his description of U. juncea (p17-18) when it sounds like he's saying a cleistogamous form of U. juncea is validly called U. virgatula. The rest of the Utricularia stuff is just derivative of his monograph. So, it's mighty useful if you don't have the 40 pounds to shell out for the book, but since I've got it most of the CPN issue is just redundant. I'm particularly happy that they've printed the list of invalid names, so people can correct their tags of U. racemosa, capensis, etc etc. The photos of interesting species, especially the ones with antennae-bearing flowers (which are thought to be pollinated by flies), I found very welcome. BUT THE BIGGEST AND BEST THING ABOUT THIS ISSUE WITHOUT A DOUBT IN MY MIND is the treatment of Genlisea. Here we have a first, complete key to the genus. Hurrah! A very short description of each species, and a bibliography! What a great thing to have. I'd eagerly buy those pages alone for more than I'd like to admit! I am psyched! Anyone going to send off for the 1991 World CP list? I think I might... especially since this Jan Schlauer claims there are references for each plant. This is a way to finally get some data on the ancient D. communis/ burkeana/spathulata/capillaris problem and so on. OK, this is great.... The other day I was getting entirely fed up with the mats of algae that I get floating in my trough of U. resupinata. Utricularia resupinata is a species that grows in peat/sand about an inch or so submerged by water---it looks like grassy blades growing out of the substrate, waving in the water. So anyway, I was looking at my grassy blades getting choked by a thick mat of green algae, when I had an idea. I got a sturdy metal comb I use for brushing out the coat of my golden retriever/lab mix, and ``combed'' the plants. The result? All the algae got strained out and the Utrics stayed behind unaffected (except for a quite dashing, well coiffed look). I think any coarse comb would work great for this. I wouldn't suggest it for most free floating aquatics, though. Not high tech, not low tech, but just the right tech. ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 91 12:20:03 +1000 Subject: re: Utrics >I have a U. calycifida in flower right now. The flower stalk produced >7 kind of smallish pink flowers. I got some plants from Gordon a few >weeks ago I thought that calcyifida had yellow flowers, and only Polypompholyx (spel?) had pink flowers. Speaking of which, our P.tenalla plants haven't done much yet apart from producing a few leaves each. I'm tossing up whether we should leave the old Byblis stem on the plant above the new shoot (in case it shoots again), or if we should chop it off. Any suggestions? +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John Taylor [The Banshee] | Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au | (Department of Applied Physics) | | MOKING IS A HEALTH HAZARD. | Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 91 21:06:17 +1000 XSubject: Re: re: Utrics >I took my B. gigantea out of the greenhouse today to tuning-fork >pollinate it, and had it in the sun for only about 5 minutes and it >started to wilt! I frantically stowed it back in the G-house. I have >to go back and make sure it's OK :( This has happened to our Byblis before (although our weather isn't quite as hostile as yours), and simply giving it a good drink was enough to make it happy again. You will probably need to provide some support for the stem when it gets around 12 inches long, so it probably wouldn't hurt to stake it earlier than this is you are afraid of breaking/bending the stem. >John, if you chop off the B. gigantea, could you replant >it and get another plant? I've read that the only good >way to propagate this plant is from stem cuttings as I recall. Actually it was Paul... (don't let the login ID fool you!) I'm not sure how the stem cutting would take, since it is quite woody and lacking in leaves. Even so, it is probably worth a try, just in case the new sideshoot decides to die... +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul Taylor [Falcon] Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | C/O s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au Melbourne, Australia. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: ATLAS@JHUVMS.BITNET Date: Wed, 4 Sep 91 21:06:17 +1000 Subject: CP Regarding Nepenthes from the seed bank, I got a packet of N. Fusca and planted the seeds two weeks ago, but no germination yet. Speaking of Nepenthes, does anyone know the reason why, when taking cuttings, you should chop off the upper two-thirds of the leaf? I was wondering... Remember the discussion some months ago about cheap reverse osmosis (ro) units from that mail-order company?? Well, I requested a catalog, and it finally came. They had a pollenex unit for 30 bucks that claimed to be a genuine ro purifier. After discussing this with an environmental friend of mine, I figured I'd give it a try. Alas, when I phoned in my order, Damark (the company) said they are sold out. Boo hoo!! They do still have the 200 dollar under-the-sink model available, but the price is too steep for me. I've been noticing a lot of snails in my S. Purpurea pitchers. Anyone know if they are harmful or useful to the plant?? Also, is there anything one can do about "indigestion?" My S. Flava is turning brown in a small spot about 5 cm from the rim of the pitcher, and the brown area seems to be slowly spreading. Is this a Maalox moment?? doug ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 91 18:13:51 MST XSubject: Re: CP >to be. I guess he had been on field trips there as a >young boy. He said you could find sarracenia, >pinguicula, drosera, and of course dionaea. I assume also A danger with old information is that any tips older than 10 years should be regarded with caution. The first thing that developers do with bogs and wetlands is drain them. There's a lot of development. On a related topic, my mother-in-law (hiss! boo!) who truly despises me, was playfully trying to offend me on the phone once. She doesn't know about my CP interests and she said, ``well Barry, I suppose if you ever buy land it will probably turn out to be a swamp!'' I agreed with her. >>I have a U. calycifida in flower right now. The flower stalk produced >>7 kind of smallish pink flowers. I got some plants from Gordon a few weeks >I thought that calcyifida had yellow flowers, and only Polypompholyx (spel?) >had pink flowers. Speaking of which, our P.tenalla plants haven't done much John and/or Paul, read that article on calycifida I sent you. That species produces pink, lilac, white or purple flowers. Get that wacky thought out of your mind that only subgenus polypompholyx Utrics have purple flowers. Lots and lots of Utrics do... >My U sandersonii from Barry is also doing well...I should say was Earl, your sandersonii will benefit from the transplant. I also suspect that things may be getting too hot for them. If they get hot, the first thing they (and most other Utrics I've grown) will do is wither any flower stalks... >(water) losses in the cutting. If the cutting is placed in 100% humidity >this perhaps is not necessary, but then again, if the leaf has pitchers >the plant may "want" to fill up that pitcher w/ water and/or enzymes, and >that would be a considerable drain on the cutting. Now really, Mike. Wouldn't this only be the job of the glands in the pitcher? You make it sound like a leaf is a big leaky pipe! Not knowing any better, I'd think the water accumulation would be moderated by the glands, and not by the basal part of the leaf! Rob M, it's good to hear from you. I hung on every line of the field trip travelogue. I'd like to get up there some summer and impose on your and Dee's hospitality! My largest petiolaris `Kununurra' has produced two side plants, budding from the base. These plants remind me very much of Dionaea. I have a very similar record regarding which of my seeds from Allen have come up, with the exception of D. glabripes. My beloved D. alba plants croaked too! Not on your list, my D. cistiflora `Red' and pauciflora `yellow' are doing well, the latter big enough perhaps to flower. But the name pauci-flora means either few-flowers on a scape, or maybe the plant rarely flowers... Incidentally, both petiolaris `Kununurra' I got from Allen were from live plant shipments, but I lost my falconeri from him. I think I'll try seed some time, especially with that handy heating info. My D. regia seems to be doing well. I encountered the same strange losses that you mention. I think that you just have to have some luck to get the plant past that phase. As long as my plant bears the heat its fighting right now I should be able to propagate it in a few months (oh please please please!) Just when I thought it was toasted, I'm getting a leaf up in my pot of U. humboldtii! I wish I knew how to get my U. praelonga to flower. Our esteemed Australians have mentioned that theirs do... Boo hoo. I have gotten a new weed problem in my greenhouse. Everywhere I look I'm getting Pinguicula coming up. Problem with this is they could be either caerulea, ionantha, primuliflora (two forms), lutea, planifolia, and possibly even pumila! Ahhhhh! All were flowering this summer, and although I tried, I know (well obviously) I didn't harvest all the seed. BAMMO ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 91 22:16:49 +1000 XSubject: Re: CP >Barry, regarding trading with Fred Howell, I can surely back up Paul's >claim that he's a very fair trader. In fact, he's sent me more plants >than I deserve (and feeling a wee guilty I might add)! Have noted D. >pygmaea contamination in D. manniana and D. spilos gemmae received from >him and some tubers are not well labelled. It does add a certain >thrill of adventure and the unexpected in growin such plants as you >never really know what might turm up. For example I received a D. >stolonifera tuber from him and it turned out to be ssp. porrecta! I'm glad your plants reached you in good condition. I'll pass on your compliments in my next letter, along with an order for a D. stolonifera ssp. porrecta ... >I wish I knew how to get my U. praelonga to flower. Our esteemed Australians >have mentioned that theirs do... Boo hoo. Our plant hasn't flowered yet, but when it does, I'm sure it will have pink flowers ;-) >I have gotten a new weed problem in my greenhouse. Everywhere I look I'm >getting Pinguicula coming up. Problem with this is they could be either >caerulea, ionantha, primuliflora (two forms), lutea, planifolia, and possibly >even pumila! Ahhhhh! All were flowering this summer, and although I tried, >I know (well obviously) I didn't harvest all the seed. We usually have problems with Drosera peltata seedlings which somehow manage to get into every pot within a 10 metre radius. Pygmy gemmae are sometimes a problem when trying to harvest them, although most end up in your face than in other pots (hint: knock the gemmae onto a sheet of paper while holding the pot at a 90 degree angle - never try and scrape them off the rosettes!) Have collected some P. caerulea seeds - any tips on growing them? ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 91 12:56:25 MST XSubject: Re: CP >Oops, I never found the time to read it properly. I know the many many >Utrics have purple flowers, I was only talking about pink. (Real? >pink, not rose lilac or other purples). I can't think of any right now, but I'm sure there must be some. >harvest germinates the best) on peat moss (Canadian). I like to mix in about Bah! Nationalism! I prefer Arizonan peat moss! >but they mysteriously succumbed after about 1-2 months. Perhaps they >need to be introduced to stronger light (I germinated most of these >seed under semi-shaded conditions) soon after germination. What's >your secret? I wish I knew. I just put them on a peat/sand mix, high water table, full sun in the Greenhouse and waited. I got a letter from Don Schnell verifying that Adrian Slack is indeed dead, and has been in this condition for about 18 months. He had a stroke and then as he was recovering he had a heart attack that did him in. Apparently there was excessive use of grape, which didn't help. Under new management Marston exotics has increased prices and reduced inventory. I had mentioned to Don S. my own interest in going to S. Carolina, and he sent me some detailed field notes of places to go. Since there was some discussion of this here, I'll mention his general sites. If you want more detailed info I can photocopy it. Of course, I do would do this with the assumption that this is an observation/appreciation/photography venture, AND NOT for collecting! 1)Lexington County----a bog west of Columbia, last visited in '88, possibly purchased by Nature Conservancy. Probably still open to visitors. 2)Berkeley Co. near Summerville, between Columbia and Charleston off I-26. Don says this is a must see, stands of plants `just like the old days.' (sniff) 3)Francis Marion National Forest and Santee Coastal Reserve Also good sites. Jeez, now I really want to go! BAMMO ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 91 15:16:04 +1000 Subject: Langwarrin F&F Reserve revisited again! 'Twas a nice sunny weekend (for once), so Paul and I jumped in the Moke and had a quick walk around the Langwarrin Flora and Fauna Reserve. Polypomphlyx tenalla plants are out and in flower (most were almost ready to open - should be a good display in the next week or so - with a few fully opened). Drosera peltata and auriculata (maybe) plants are gettimnghng a bit taller (a few inches now) and some peltatas are flowering at this height. Found two new species of ground orchids (tuberous) - one short greenhood (species unknown) and a yellow sun-orchid (Thelymitra antenniflora - or something like that). The only other find was a single D. spathulata in very wet ground (was underwater a month ago) and a few small D. glanduligera plants (we can't get them to grow either ;-) There is no sign of the D binata plants, or of the aquatic Utric in the old reservoir (except for a few possible hair-like strands). ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 91 15:16:04 +1000 Subject: Queensland sundews: an observation. Not that this will come as any great surprise to most of you, but I'm amazed at how sensitive the Queensland sundews (adelae, schizandra, prolifera) are to light. If my prolifera gets even an hour or so of direct sunlight, its' growth slows way down. However, with 75% shade cloth over it, it rolls out a new leaf at the rate of one every 5 days or so. Same thing with my adelae. (I don't have a schizandra :-( ). I've heard that they are sensitive to heat, but it seems that sunlight, and of course possibly the heat generated in the leaves by the sunlight, may be a more telling factor. Since Peter Damato grows his schizandra in the HOT area in his greenhouse, with his lowland Nepenthes, I'm inclined to believe that it is light/light-generated-heat, not ambient temp, which affects these species the most. As soon as the little plantlets are big enough, I'm going to transplant one into my 80 degree terrarium and see how it does in there under lights. BTW, some live spahgnum I have in the terrarium got molded over with grey, fuzzy, stuff. I presume this is a result of not enough ventilation, right? But if ventilate more, the temps and humidity go down. Any suggestions? Perhaps keep the moss more wet? ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 91 15:16:04 +1000 Subject: peat planting mixtures. BTW, when I was visiting California Carnivores Peter D'Amata disclosed to me that he uses peat/perlite mixtures, with very fine perlite. He said it works just as good as peat sand, and the pots are a lot lighter. I tried it, and it seems to be a good deal. Put a later of straight peat on top though to keep the perlite from floating if you water fro above. Pots are veeeeeery light this way.j r. ################### From: Scott Brown Date: Mon, 9 Sep 91 15:16:04 +1000 Subject: Longwood Gardens Maureen and I went to Longwood gardens in Pennsylvania on Saturday. This is a trip I would recommend to any plant lover who is in the area. The highlight for me was seeing some very large, well grown Nepenthes. The orchid display was also very impressive. In addition to the Nepenthes, CP on display included some common drosera and sarracenia and some large dionaea. One particularly interesting plant was a huge waterplant (their own hybrid) whose leaves can (each) keep a 100 pound weight afloat. Michael, you might want to contact Longwood about a job. They are very large and could use a few more CP. Scott ################### From: Scott Brown Date: Mon, 9 Sep 91 15:16:04 +1000 Subject: Re: Longwood > Yeah, Longwood gardens is great. They have a great Nepenthes > collection. Not so good with the other cp's, but it has been > several years since I've been there. Do you recall if they had N. > raja or other goodies on display? I don't remember seeing N. raja. The labels I looked at turned out to be hybrids. It was kind of hard to see the labels because we were in the greenhouse at night. Why? you ask... because we were seeing a fireworks show in addition to the plants. The greenhouses were not too well lit and it was difficult reading the labels on the hanging plants. Scott ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 91 15:16:04 +1000 Subject: random mutterings My D. peltata tuber is finally coming up. It must be an import :-). I've had it since May, potted, and it's been inactive. Every month or so I'd carefully move the sandy soil aside, looking for a shoot. About a month ago I found one. This month there was still no activity, so I went digging again, and found it about 1/4" closer to the surface. (can you tell I'm impatient?) I expect it to break the surface soon. Cool. Everything else is slowing down, except the nepenthes and tropical utrics I have under lights, which are going great guns. I've ordered some Nepenthes seed from the seed bank which I hope to spend the winter germinating under lights. Maybe I'll have something next year to give out. Robert ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 91 08:44:26 +1000 Subject: Drosera peltata >My D. peltata tuber is finally coming up. It must be an >import :-). I think the rather strange winter we had here confused many of the plants, including D. peltata. The seasons seem to have been delayed a month - June was quite warm, and we still have excellent snow conditions in September! The established pot of D. peltata was flowering around July, and is still going strong. Tubers from a tray we had that I repotted in two pots and in the garden are only just getting into peak growth, as are the ones at the local CP haunts. Once the shoot hits the surface, the growth rate will increase dramatically... a few mosquitos for dinner also helps. +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul Taylor [Falcon] Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | C/O s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au Melbourne, Australia. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 91 08:44:26 +1000 Subject: Terrarium idea. While waiting for my seed bank order to arrive I've been thinking about how to germinate what I've ordered. I've decided to place all the seeds in damp, milled, spahgnum, either in pots, or in little six pack containers. The problem is, I want the containers to be within a few inches of the lights, and the Nepenthes in there are too tall for that. The solution? I have some plastic grid sitting in the bottom of the acquarium so I can keep about 1/2" of water in there and not have the Nepenthes sitting in water. What I'm going to do is to cut a piece of the grid off, then raise that portion alone up to the lights, using plastic pots to block it up. I'll have a split level terrarium. Of course, some of you have probably already figured this out, but I was sort of pleased with myself for making the most of my limited space. Robert ################### From: dngess01%vlsi.louisville.edu%ulkyvx.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu Date: Wed, 11 Sep 91 08:44:26 +1000 XSubject: Re: Terrarium idea. Robert Allen says: >>My D. peltata tuber is finally coming up. It must be an >>import :-). >> >>I've had it since May, potted, and it's been inactive. Every >>month or so I'd carefully move the sandy soil aside, looking >>for a shoot. About a month ago I found one. This month there >>was still no activity, so I went digging again, and found it >>about 1/4" closer to the surface. (can you tell I'm impatient?) >> >>I expect it to break the surface soon. Cool. Everything else >>is slowing down, except the nepenthes and tropical utrics I >>have under lights, which are going great guns. I've ordered >>some Nepenthes seed from the seed bank which I hope to spend >>the winder germinating under lights. Maybe I'll have something >>next year to give out. I count 6 D.peltata seedlings just sprouting from a pot I sowed last April. I almost gave up hope for them. I'm harvesting seeds now from the D. indica I sowed at the same time. When I used to grow D.peltata, I remember that they flower during the first year, so it's possible to grow them as annuals if you don't want the hassle of taking care of them as they go into and out of dormancy. Does anybody know of other easy-to-grow tuberous Drosera other than auriculata and peltata that will flower during the first year? I also ordered more Nep seeds from the seed bank. They should be arriving any day now. Is anyone growing N. x dyeriana? This seems to be the Nep with the largest pitchers of the common types that are grown. The species N. rajah is the one that is most often noted as having the largest pitchers, but I've also read somewhere that N. merrilliana holds that distinction. Maybe there's a different criterion (e.g. one is "tallest", the other "contains the most area in cubic units"). Longwood Gardens, by the way, is supposed to contain the best Nepenthes collection in the USA, at least according to an old CPN - March 1979. The best in the world is supposed to be at Edinburgh's Royal Botanic Gardens. The curator at Longwood is (was) Pat Nutt. Another CPN said there are private greenhouses at Longwood that ICPS members can see if they announce their interest. What kind of species/hybrids of Neps does everyone grow? I might have a few cuttings of N. x curtisii (?) to trade. This plant was originally labelled as "N. x superba". The plant doesn't look anything like either of the two parents listed in the World CP List. This is probably the plant "N. curtisii" mentioned in CPN 1987-p.69. It has a wide peristome and looks a little like N. maxima. The true maxima I've read is supposed to have a glandular crest, but my plant doesn't have one. It may be N. x mixta "superba" though. It produces rather big pitchers - around 8 inches! Other Neps I have - N. tobaica, N. anamensis (both are small - about the size of year old seedlings), N. gracilis, N. khasiana (Michael sent me a cutting of this), N. ampullaria (green), N. ampullaria (red) (I got the "red" variety from Barry - both are too small for cuttings), N. x rokko (I got this from Barry too - still reviving after being slow to root), I HAD alata (boschiana mimic) from Barry but it croaked before rooting, N. gracilis x hookeriana (may have enough for a cutting - fast growing - pitcher not too exciting), N. x hookeriana (?) (got this from Michael, haven't seen a pitcher yet), N. x boissiense rubra (maybe lecouflei), N. x wrigleyana (kosobe) - (originally labelled x kosobe, looks like wrigleyana, nice completely red pitchers, looks like pic on p. 86, Sept 87 CPN - fig 5), N. x balfouriana (doesn't produce a lot of pitchers, may have enough for a cutting, creamy-colored pitchers w/ not very wide peristome, sort of ordinary looking). Has anyone germinated the N. ventricosa hybrids from the seed exchange yet? Anyone interested in orchids too? I have a duplicate Slc. Empress of Mercury "Gwo Luen" AM/AOS I can trade. About D. collinsiae, it may still be a hybrid even if seed is fertile. If the embryo is an amphiploid (where the two sets of chromosomes from the two parents don't synapse), the resulting plant may produce viable seeds. This is according to a CPN from 1990. The article was about Drosera evolution. I got a couple D. collinsiae from Michael too. My plants produce leaves at a 45-degree angle, like D. intermedia. The leaves look like intermedia, but the petioles seem to be a little longer. Rob M.: Did Barry say you sent him a message about a CP field trip? Could you put me in your CP mailing list? I didn't get that message. My address is "dngess01%vlsi.louisville.edu@ulkyvx.bitnet". Barry, sorry to hear your D. falconerii died. Did your D. arcturi ever germinate? What kind of things does Don Schnell grow? There used to be a big list put out by Bob Ziemer that listed all the different species that people grew, and noting those species people had to trade. I remember Don was a big Nepenthes grower; and, of course, being an expert on Sarracenia, had a ton of these too. It was sort of surprising to see that he didn't have any tuberous Drosera, not even a peltata or auriculata. ################### From: ATLAS@JHUVMS.BITNET Date: Wed, 11 Sep 91 08:44:26 +1000 Subject: stuff Regarding the mosquito larvae, I have the same problem as Earl. I usually just change the water every two weeks or so, but am thinking of experimenting with utrics to remedy this. The D. Binata NZ and D Aliciae I got from the seed bank have sprouted. Any recommendations on light intensity for the seedlings?? Still no action from the N. Gracilis or N. Fusca. Since I like Sarrs, I was thinking...how difficult is it to "fool" them about the season?? I thought it would be nice to have some non-dormant sarrs around in the wintertime. I could keep them inside over the winter, and put them in the fridge over the summer. Can this reorientation be done with mature plants, or is it best to do it with seed/seedlings?? Any ideas? Somehow, there are several annoying flies in my kitchen, and they are too fast for me to swat. So I brought in a couple D. Capensis, and am hoping they will do their thing by the time I get home today. I love biological warfare!! Which brings up an interesting point: one fun thing I get to tell people who ask me why on earth I grow cp is for the irony of it...I am a vegetarian and eat plants but not meat, but I grow plants that eat "meat." doug ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 91 08:44:26 +1000 Subject: Re: Damn ants >>I don't have problems with ants but with MOSQUITOES! I have my >>plants in trays of water and I guess because I don't empty them >>out now and then, the mosquites start to breed in them... >>I hate to remove all the plants, empty out the water from the >>trays, scrub them free of moss, and put the plants in again... >>Any easier way?? Are your trays clear? I've been using some clear trays and they grow moss a lot faster than opaque trays. As far as the mosquitos, the only thing I could recommend is planting lots of hardy drosera, so the adults can't get close enough to the water to lay eggs. ################### From: ATLAS@JHUVMS.BITNET Date: Wed, 11 Sep 91 08:44:26 +1000 Subject: cp seed I just checked my (real) mailbox, and I received my seed order from the seed bank. Let's see...I got N. Tentaculata, Rafflesiana, Mirabilis, Khasiana, and D. Stolonifera Compacta. I start sowing tonight. Speaking of seed, I'm interested in growing D Peltata, 'cause I've heard it's one of the easiest tuberous droseras to grow. Didn't someone on the net say he has/will have some seed?? Or was it just a dream?? doug ################### From: MAHARAJ@MCMASTER.BITNET Date: Wed, 11 Sep 91 08:44:26 +1000 Subject: Here's that "CP field trip" message Don Hi everyone! A marvelous thing occurred this morning: the muses of organic chemistry granted me some precious time away from the chemicals and synthetic manipulations for a morning. A great opportunity to catch up on the triple digit emails bursting from my Newmail Folder! I spent about four days up in and around our capital city, Ottawa, on both business and pleasure. The last day was reserved for a pilgrimage to D. linearis country along the shores of Lake Huron near the famed Bruce Penninsula. Braving the swarms of horseflies (whose bite is not noticed until a few minutes AFTER it has dined) while travelling up the eastern shoreline of Dorcas Bay Nature Reserve, I arrived at one remote station just a hundred feet or so from the lake water. The area - about 30 sq. feet - is supported by run-off from lime- stone-based forest of the interior. Here D. linearis was growing in abundance (about 500 plants) along side with P. vulgaris and a few S. purpurea ssp. purpurea f. ripicola in full sun. Plants were about 1-2 inches high and blood-red and most had already commenced hibernaculum formation (Date=AUgust 12). An interesting observation is that the linear leaf sundew only seems to grow in locations that receive at least 5 hours/day of direct, unobstructed sunlight and the previously-reported observations of its intolerance to plant competitions certainly seems to hold. Also, very, very few plants seem to grow in moist but well-drained areas, preferring wet substrate with a H2O table about an inch or so below the soil surface. Two other stations were visited, one of which was fenced off private land purchased in 1962 by the Federation of Ontario Naturalists (FON). Growing conditions were very much the same as for the first station, except that the plants were growing in pure sand. Here I also found U. intermedia in full flower, their huge canary yellow corrolas resembling the U. juncea ones illustrated in Don Schnell's book. Further detective work around a dried up lagoon area of the reserve turned up thousands of the ripicola form of S. purpurea in a 1 acre flat location. In a bushy area by a small stream next to the purps revealed a good sized colony of P. vulgaris growing in almost full shade (in contrast to the full sun location at the first D. linearis station). I was hoping to see (well, not really) Eastern Canada's only poisonous reptile, the infamous Massasauga rattler. The Dorcas Bay area is one of about 2 or 3 small areas in Eastern Canada where the rattler can be found. At another D. linearis location at Petrol Point (about 50 km south from the Dorcas Bay Reserve, see CPN article on D. linearis by Don Schnell, ca early to mid 1980's), the sundews are on average 1 inch larger than their Dorcas Bay counterparts. It is not know whether this is genetically or environmentally determined but by next summer I should have an idea from growth observations of my 1 yr. old seedlings. The Petrol Point area is fortunately a reserve, also bought out by FON, to protect the last reminants of prime habitats of unique Lake Huron fauna and flora from development (primarily cottages). I'm happy to report that over the past 4 yearly visits to these areas the D. linearis populations are strong in both quality and quantity, with possible exception to the Petrol Point reserve where numbers have dwindled somewhat. This summer, D. linearis was officially recognized by the Canadian government as an Endangered Species. Well, its about time! I heard from Gordon about a week ago via post. He sent me some of the Nepenthes seed that everyone has been mumbling about. I sowed them on pure milled Sphagnum the day I received them and popped them in a Ziploc bag under lights. So far nothing but at least no signs of fungus. I dislike peat mixes for Nepenthes seed since they tend to entice fungal growth in my experience. Gordon also sent me many months ago some of those N. ventricosa hybrid seed but after about 8 months at least, I have yet to see a peep from them. Gordon said to hang on to them since a few grower have reported germination: for some reason, these particular seed insists on taking their cool time. Barry, regarding trading with Fred Howell, I can surely back up Paul's claim that he's a very fair trader. In fact, he's sent me more plants than I deserve (and feeling a wee guilty I might add)! Have noted D. pygmaea contamination in D. manniana and D. spilos gemmae received from him and some tubers are not well labelled. It does add a certain thrill of adventure and the unexpected in growin such plants as you never really know what might turm up. For example, I received a D. stolonifera tuber from him and it turned out to be ssp. porrecta! I have about 10 plants of D. petiolaris "Kunnunurra" accelerating quickly to the 1 cm diameter mark. Had also germinated D. falconeri - according to Allen's suggested 32-35 C 2-3 week treatment of the sown seed (on peat)- but lost all seedlings presumably to damping off. Next attempt, I'll keep the falconeri pot drier. Allen has also germinated D. banksii, D. lanata and other petiolaris types using this method. Establishing mature plants through purchase from Allen has not been successful for me: plants invariably arrive in the mail either dead or so weakened that they never recuperate. I think seed's the way to go and the seedlings are growing very quickly. Regarding other seed from Allen, D. regia, D. ramentacea, D. glabripes, D. sp. "Floating", D. venusta, D. admirabilis, D. spathulata forms have germinated but nothing as yet from D. acaulis, D. arturi types, D. stenopetala, D. gigantea, D. bulbosa "Eastern Wheatbelt", P. sharpii, P. vallisneriifolia, P. bohemica, D. pauciflora and a few others. Although I get a good germination rate for D. regia, most of the seedlings just die after attaining 4 or 5 leaves and before the first true root is formed. And my growing conditions are fairly cool (ca. 15-25 C) with well- drained peat/sand. Well, one of the muses' is tapping me on the shoulder and pointing one of his fingers over at the lab door. I think that I'll reluctantly call it quits for now. Although I would not be able to contribute as often as I like, I would still like to hear the latest on the email waves, so keep them coming! If something new and interesting surfaces though, I'll be sure to network it. Good growing...... Rob (M.) ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 91 11:45:36 +1000 Subject: Re: Peltata seed >Speaking of seed, I'm interested in growing D Peltata, 'cause I've heard >it's one of the easiest tuberous droseras to grow. Didn't someone on the >net say he has/will have some seed?? Or was it just a dream?? > > doug Yes, we will have some to swap (or maybe give away). Our plants don't stop producing them and are becoming more of a weed than D. capensis, and U. livida and subulata!. We'll let you know when it's ripe (probably in a month or so). ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 91 11:45:36 +1000 Subject: mumblings I've been fighting an ongoing war with aphids on some of my CP, mainly drosera and dionea. I resolved the problem on my pot o' flytraps masterfully, with a skillful application of half-strength diazanon, sprayed on. More recently my D. prolifera and maybe D. x Nagamoto (which is growing like a weed; thanks Barry) got them. So, I've sprayed them with a 1/4 str. diazanon solution. The D. prolifera looks a bit shriveled up now, but it's still alive, and I think I may have killed the aphids. Just FYI. Propagation: while pruning my plants, I accidentally cut off a length of D. filiformis last month, on the 8th. I packed it in moss, and put it in my terrarium under lights. One month later, after moving it around and thus changing the lite intensity, the leaf is sprouting at least one plantlet. I've also moved a D. prolifera plantlet in, and even at 80 degrees during the day, and near 100% (guessed) humidity, it's growing real fast under lights, and stays quite dewey. Blooms: U. livida is sending up a scape finally. Only after keeping it quite wet did it do this. P. agnata is also sending up a scape. Maybe I'll try and self-pollinate it when it blooms... ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 91 18:59:53 MST XSubject: Re: mumblings >Can you detail collinsae for me? I have a small one, and I'm >wondering how big they get, what color they get, do they go >dormant, etc. Mine has leaves with long petioles and the >blades are roundish, about 3/16" wide. The simplest description would be as follows: Very similar to D. intermedia in leaf shape and arrangement, but not suffused with red (except in tentacles). They do not form hibernacula, but slow down growth during the winter, after seed production ends. Flowers pink/red. My oldest plant is 3 years almost. Seed takes up to 8 months to germinate. Leaf cuttings produce a plant very fast >I'm trying to propagate my two Mexican Pings (kondoi and rotundifolia) as >fast as I can. Thanks. Contact me again before you send it to make sure I haven't scammed a copy by then. I should contact Joe---he may have an extra copy still, although it's been a long time. I recall seeing the old ads for this system he had. >I can't find it now, but I remember reading in CPN that Nepenthes can be I don't know anything about tissue culture, but I thought that it needs some active meristem tissue to work. I'd think a tendril in growth would have plenty of apical meristem tissue growing... >Barry, how is your "large trap" variety of Cephalotus compare to the typical >type? Still too young to be sure. I got these from Mistah Maharajh, who got it from Grant Hallchurch from Guelph (or something like that). >About water-absorbing gel in CP soil, it doesn't appear to be absolutely My only concern is there might be some residual (toxic) chemicals in the gel. Also, they break down over time (I've heard a few years) and release Fixed nitrogen in the process---again, this is what I've heard... >I got a catalog for indoor metal halide light fixtures. They are very Of course, the one cost you didn't mention for these things is the electrical bill. I gather they can be substantial. A grower, DeFranco I think was his name, has experimented with these bulbs---check old CPNs. I wrote to him a few times---nice sort but doesn't know a whit about spectra that makes any sense. ################### From: mjc Date: Tue, 01 Oct 91 19:06:04 MST Subject: stuf I agree with Barry, Nepenthes tendril must contain mucho meristem. Not apical meristem, but intercalary meristem. I too have heard that water-absorbant jells may promote fungus growth. I have not heard about toxic effects, but the chemical that they are made of is similar to a chemical which is toxic to humans (and much used for electro- phoretic jell-rigs). Somehow the name of the stuff escapes me. I knew a guy in Connecticut who grew Nepenthes under metal halide, or a similar light source. The thing was big, hot, heavy, and undoubtely expensive to buy and run. i did not like the looks of the yellowish light, and neither did his nepenthes. Nevertheless, the plants grew, and the heat was a benifit in a cold Connecticut basement. It threw a lot of light, but the largbe circular area of irradiance was a lot harder to work with than a linear tube-lit area. I'd say forget halides and stick with flourescents. MJC ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 91 21:27:02 +1000 XSubject: Re: stuf >>My B. gigantea is growing quite well from its offshoot after dormancy, and > >How long was it dormant? How did it signal entering dormancy? It was dormant for around 6 months. The main signs of dormancy that I can remember is that it stops growing, and fails to replace the leaves that die back along the stem. I think it then starts dying back from the tip towards the base - if you're lucky the plant will produce a shoot before the "death zone" reachs soil level... Our plant had around 6 inches of green stem above where the shoot was produced (about 1-1.5 inches from soil surface). The new growth is around 4-5 inches long. >>Yippee! Our Polypomphlox tenella plants are sending up flower stalks, so >>there is a very small chance that we might have some seed to spare in a few >>months. > >This may be a tricky plant. If I were you I'd resow every bit of it yourself. Doesn't seem to be that tricky to grow - the small clump of plants we had self-sowed and is growing strongly. I can't remember whether we treated it as a normal Utric. (i.e. standing in water year round) or let it dry out over summer... The plants in the wild near us are growing in a mud/sand soil along with D. pygmae, which turns rock hard in summer so the second method might be best. Speaking of seeds, the D. peltata seeds are currently in the collection phase - you don't get as many seeds per pod as a Sarracenia (approx. 250 seeds per pod for our S. purpurea ssp. venosa plants last year), but since there are around 6 pods per plant, there should be enough to go round. >It's funny---whenever you two talk about seasonal plants like >Sarracenia I always have to stop and add six months to the date to see >if it makes sense. Right now my Sarracenia are producing seed and >slowing down in growth, while the leucs are in the middle of their >second (and superior) crop of pitchers. I don't know what kind of >Sphagnum you grow, but it sure doesn't sound like mine. I encourage >Sphagnum to grow in my Sarracenia pots, as does Don Schnell and many >other growers I know. I have about three unidentified species with my >Sarrs and I think they benefit from it. I don't know what bush moss >is, and even if you described it I doubt it would be familiar. >Probably another one of those wacky divergent evolution things that >happened since your continent decided to go solo. "Bush moss" is a general term I use for any moss which isn't sphagnum moss :-) I'm not sure what mosses you have growing in the U.S., but the types of mosses that cause problems are those that are found growing on rocks, trees, in lawns etc. Most have fine thread-like "leaves", forming dense mats that form a distinct layer on the soil surface (making it easy to remove). Apart from smothering the soil, the moss shrinks when dried out, leave a gap around the edge of the pot. This also occurs with peat, but peat will expand again when soaked in water - the moss doesn't. The shrinkage also causes the moss to lift away from the peat below, causing most small plants (e.g. pygmy Drosera) that survive being smothered by the moss to die from lack of moisture. Live sphagnum causes very few problems, but most of the sphagnum in the pots in the dormant/dead variety. Of the little that does grow, the tips tend to turn black as if burnt, although the pots containing only sphagnum moss (e.g. Cobra lilies) seems to grow without many problems. I'll see how the moss-free pots perform, and possibly replant fresh, live sphagnum if the results aren't up to scratch. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 91 21:27:02 +1000 Subject: stuff The dreaded grey mold has struck my newly planted seeds. :-( :-(. I've opened up the covering to get some air circulation and am still hoping for some germination. I also had an idea: I'm going to look for one of those little solar powered fans which they build into hats, and see if it will run in my terrrarium from the flourescents. Maybe if I can keep the air circulating during the day the mold will stay away. My D. prolifera is flowering. I'm going to let it, hoping to see the famous vegetative buds on the stalk. D. peltatu tuber has broken the soil surface. Yay. A bunch of the rest of my plants have gone dormant. Boo. Now both my D. capensis "red" and D. capensis "Giant" are sending out adventitous roots. What weeds. I'm surprised they haven't gone dormant while the North American species have. Oh yes, D. adelae: some time ago I ordered one from Gordon Snelling. It arrived looking pretty happy, but had a steady decline after I planted it. One day I looked and it seemed to have died. However, remembering the words of wisdom from this group, I left the dead plant in the pot. This week I noticed new growth. I'm amazed. This plant didn't just die back to it's crown: the crown had rotted, and I pulled it out. There was clearly enough roots to grow back though. Contributions from Barry and Michael have undergone similar trials: the adelae from Barry is finally coming back in force, with 3 crowns and nice leaves. Michaels' still looks dead, but it's the latest acquisition. The adelae from Gordon Snelling was obtained between the other two (I ordered it before Barry sent me one, so it was an accidental extra). Robert ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 91 21:40:43 MST XSubject: Re: stuff >I agree with Barry, Nepenthes tendril must contain mucho meristem. Not >apical meristem, but intercalary meristem. Oops. Imagine my eternal shame! Back to the books for me! >I knew a guy in Connecticut who grew Nepenthes under metal halide, or a Adding more to the mystery theatre, I heard on the radio today that some Phoenician (i.e. out of Phoenix, Mike's territory) got arrested for growing Cannibus in his garage under `special lights.' Probably the same bulbs. Hey, anybody heard from Mike lately? He may be the very one! >>Yippee! Our Polypomphlox tenella plants are sending up flower stalks, >>so >Doesn't seem to be that tricky to grow - the small clump of plants we >had self-sowed and is growing strongly. I can't remember whether we >treated it as Sounds like you're doing well. I've only had one plant from old Poly come up--- a lone multifida. Didn't set seed though. :( >"Bush moss" is a general term I use for any moss which isn't sphagnum >moss :-) I'm not sure what mosses you have growing in the U.S., but >the types of mosses that cause problems are those that are found >growing on rocks, trees, in lawns OH...I know what you're talking about. In the States we call that Bellyrug moss(*) or, on the East-coast, Clam-hair moss(*). > Now both my D. capensis "red" and D. capensis "Giant" > are sending out adventitous roots. What weeds. I'm Weeds, huh? Weeds that make....seeds? Not that I'm finagling for some capensis `red' seeds, naw, not a bit. Not unless you're offering, that is. Naw. Not finagling at all. Root cuttings? Just curious. Just curious. (*) Not really. But since you're all the way on the other side of the globe how are you to know! :) BAMR ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 91 21:52:28 MST XSubject: Re: stuff Got a letter from Gordon. Some things he mentions of interest are: He also has no problem growing D. hamiltonii and propagates them much as others do---via root cuttings. To induce flowering, he thinks they should be exposed to frost. He has gotten flowers but believes they must be crossed. As for ants (he grows 'em!) he says Sphagnum is fine because it maintains a nice humid area for them, with plenty of nooks for them to hold the brood. He thinks S. rubra ssp. are superior ant collectors. Lastly, he says the wasps the Taylors were discussing are indeed European wasps and are apparently larger and a tad more aggressive than the ones indigenous to the States. Our State-side one is also being replaced by the European ones. **************** Another scape from my U. caerulea pot has produced a flower. These are almost pure white, in contrast with the other plants. I wonder if the batch of seeds represent a heterogenous lot, or if I'm seeing a cultural change. I *did* spray the Sarracenia with diazinon last week. I wonder. But that's on the other side of the Greenhouse... BAMR ################### From: mjc Date: Wed, 02 Oct 91 22:01:03 MST Subject: Cannabis Drat! Guys, I got nabbed for growing Cannabis!* They let me make one last bitnet call. I thought, with all my heart, I must call you guys. Heh, wait a minute, you don't think they will trace my call and get to you guys and your hash stash? Naaah, they'd never think of it! MJC * He's lying. :-) ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 91 22:01:03 MST Subject: Re: Cannabis >>Drat! Guys, I got nabbed for growing Cannabis!* They let me make one last >>bitnet call. I thought, with all my heart, I must call you guys. Heh, >>wait a minute, you don't think they will trace my call and get to you guys >>and your hash stash? Naaah, they'd never think of it! Hey, who is this guy posting to our list? >>>I knew a guy in Connecticut who grew Nepenthes under metal halide, or a Yeah. Right. Nepenthes. Sure... Actually, recent discussions have led me to wonder what would happen if the cops ever dropped by my place for a look. I can see it now: "Well Mr. Allen, just how dangerous to small children are these plants? Have you had a toxicology study done on these `digestive enzymes'?". The thought wasn't as funny as I'd hoped. >> >>> Now both my D. capensis "red" and D. capensis "Giant" >>> are sending out adventitous roots. What weeds. I'm >> >Weeds, huh? Weeds that make....seeds? Not that I'm finagling for some >capensis `red' seeds, naw, not a bit. Not unless you're offering, that >is. Naw. Not finagling at all. Root cuttings? Just curious. Just >curious. That's what I get for making a casual, or is it causal?, remark. It hasn't put up a stalk yet, since it died back to the crown for a while before coming back in strength. However, I'll keep your lack of interest in mind when I get a scape, or when the root system is active enough to merit cuttings :-). Or, hmm, I coult stuff a leaf cutting in my terrarium and maybe get small (non- shippable) plants in a month. I'll try and remind myself to do it tomorrow. I'm still amazed that both capensis' I have are growing outdoors, while the N. American species have gone dormant. I've decided against trying to take leaf cuttings of my P. agnata right now, since it's flowering. Time to find an "implement" to do The Deed. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 91 22:10:08 MST XSubject: Re: Cannabis Uh, dear officers of the law. I just got a bitnet message from Michael Chamberland, who I've never heard of before. I don't know anything about him. I think he must be a wacko. When you put him in jail please send his plants to me, that is if he has any plants but I don't know because I've never met him before. Any plants other than the illegal herb that is. Especially any CPs, but as I said before, I don't know who the guy is so how would I know if he has any CP Anonymous Tip P.S. Please don't read my name off the mail header above, unless he has some good plants. (but not the herb) ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 91 15:22:50 +1000 Subject: Re: Poly and also Nemotodes >>Yippee! Our Polypomphlox tenella plants are sending up flower stalks, >>so Doesn't seem to be that tricky to grow - the small clump of plants >>we had self-sowed and is growing strongly. I can't remember whether >>we treated it as > >Sounds like you're doing well. I've only had one plant from old Poly >come up-- a lone multifida. Didn't set seed though. :( Could be that multifida is a harder plant - never had the chance to grow it. Are nemotode (worms) harmful to Utrics? I removed a small tuft of moss from one pot and several nemo's wriggled out (ugh!). If only we had some carnivorous fungi.... ################### From: Scott Brown Date: Thu, 3 Oct 91 15:22:50 +1000 Subject: winter rest The weather is starting to get cool here in New Jersey and will probably dip below freezing some night in the next few weeks. Since this is my first winter growing CP I am a little concerned with how to properly rest the plants. I had almost all of my plants outside for the spring and summer and they did very well. I plan on leaving some of the plants outside all winter such as S. Purpurea which grows in the wild nearbye. I don't have a greenhouse but just finished making a large light rack where I currently have my orchids. The rack is in my bedroom where the temperature will not get too low because I have to live there. I have 2 options. Leave the plants outside where night temp will sometimes fall below freezing, or inside where the temperature will not fall below 50 F. Naturally I don't want to kill any plants with the low outside temperatures but I am concerned that the indoor temperatures will not be low enough to start the plants hibernating. How low should the temp be to initiate hibernation? I water my CP by leaving them in trays of water which has worked well so far. I understand that during the rest period, watering should be reduced. Should I remove the plants from the water trays and occasionally water-from-the-top, or would it be OK to leave them in the trays with a lower water level? I know different plants will have different needs but I am just looking for some rule of thumb ideas. I have mostly Sarracenia, Drosera, and utricularia. I am going to a wedding this weekend in Rochester NY and planned on visiting Niagra Falls and Peter Paul Nursery while I was in the neighborhood. I called for directions to the nursery this morning and was told that they are not open to the public due to insurance problems. What a disappointment. Scott ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 91 15:22:50 +1000 Subject: Re: winter rest Regarding windering plants: I can only offer what I read in Slack. He wrote of a man who had a small bog garden in a large planter. The guy put 4" or so of live moss over his plants when they went dormant, and left the whole affair outside. In the spring he removed the moss, which protected the plants from a freeze, and they reportedly did well. Perhaps you could pack the pots in compost, which if chosen carefully will generate some heat, and put moss over the tops? Keep the root system from freezing seems to be the mesg here. >From sunny california, robert ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 91 16:26:26 +1000 Subject: Re: Winter Rest >I water my CP by leaving them in trays of water >which has worked well so far. I understand that >during the rest period, watering should be reduced. >Should I remove the plants from the water trays and >occasionally water-from-the-top, or would it be OK to >leave them in the trays with a lower water level? We keep our Sarras in tray during the growth season (spring-early autumn/fall) but then only water to keep them damp/moist during dormancy. Same for Droseras except we always water from the top (not enough trays!). Utrics can be kept in their trays all year. Ours are grown in a unheated glasshouse, but those in the bog garden survived OK even though they were rained on often (the water table is about 4"? from the surface of the bog or less). However, we didn't have any frost problems this year (greenhouse effect?), so maybe that helped. >>Perhaps you could pack the pots in compost, which if chosen >>carefully will generate some heat, and put moss over the tops? >>Keep the root system from freezing seems to be the mesg here. If freezing conditions are likely, you could try spraying mist all over the plants. The water freezes all over the plants and actually insulates them from sub-zero temperatures. At least I've seen it done for fruit trees on some TV program somewhere. You could also try plastic bottles as domes or even plastic bags to make mini-greenhouses over your plants. >>From sunny california, >>robert and sunny Australia ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Robert Allen) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 91 16:26:26 +1000 Subject: Ants Ants: there still seem to be some living in my tearrarium, but I normally only see one or two. watering the moss my N. ampullaria is living in doesn't cause them to roil up anymore either. The ampullaria is growing great guns: underground. The normaly meristem is growing ever so slowly, but underground there are at least two full sized pitchers (for the plant size, I think it's still young), plus more coming up. Live spahgnum seems to be an optimal growth medium for this species. I've tried to look at how the undergrownd pitchers are growing, and I don't think the grow from a rhizome, as described in Randall Schwartzes book. I think they just grow from vestigial leaves. Robert ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 91 09:40:10 MST XSubject: Re: Ants >Could be that multifida is a harder plant - never had the chance to grow it. Yeah, that must be it! >Are nemotode (worms) harmful to Utrics? I removed a small tuft of moss >from one pot and several nemo's wriggled out (ugh!). If only we had >some carnivorous fungi.... I thought that nemotodes were practically microscopic? Anyway, I don't think those little worms I believe you're talking about are harmful. Slugs can be a real pain, though. >some night in the next few weeks. Since this is >my first winter growing CP I am a little concerned >with how to properly rest the plants. I had almost >all of my plants outside for the spring and summer >and they did very well. I plan on leaving some of >the plants outside all winter such as S. Purpurea >which grows in the wild nearbye. Important topic, hibernation, and one I don't think you should disregard. Even plants that don't form real hibernacula or phyllodia, but rather just slow down in growth, in my mind benefit from winter dormancy. I take a very dim view of people trying to grow various plants (i.e. tuberous Drosera) continuously. So, each year as winter approaches I inventory all my plants and give each an appropriate treatment. By far, most of the tropical Drosera and Utricularia in your collections do not need any winter dormancy. This includes D. capensis. The North American Drosera (excluding capillaris and brevifolia) can take light frosts in my experience. Obviously, plants local to N.Jersey etc can take colder temperatures during the winter---with an important difference. Plants in the wild have a couple of feet of snow and ice insulating them from the biting cold. Plants in an exposed pot do not. In Arizona, I let them get down to about freezing for a couple of weeks. They'll come out of dormancy when they want to. I keep a few plants in the fridge if they like a very long dormancy (some D. anglica from Rob M stay dormant 9 months out of the year for me!). I think what is important here is to not interfere with them when they are trying to go dormant---trying to prolong their growing time seems to exhaust them and then they can't form large enough winter buds when they finally do bed down. Same treatment with my Sarrs, except for northern or mountain plants like purpurea purpurea, oreophila, or rubra jonesii. These I let FREEZE SOLID for a couple of months. They LIKE it! What is more, scale and pests do not! Freezing them is something I was worried about, although grower Paul McMillan swears by it. This last winter I did it and they loved it. I'm not talking about putting them in the freezer of a refrigerator---that's probably too cold. Anyway, with these exceptions, most of your winter plants will do well just being kept chilly---you know, 40--50 F with occasional frosts I've got three different clones of intermedia from the USA, one supposedly `Giant.' But it isn't too impressive. I have recently gotten a clone that is actually larger, and produces big stemmy plants. It's also producing seed and I think I'll have enough to stuff the mattress AND feed the soviets. As for my Cuba and also my `tropical' and `Mt. Roraima' forms, these are all plants from seeds (I think) that Rob M. sent me some time ago. Not anything remarkably different in any way, at least not yet. I'll be interested to see if they form hibernacula this winter. >Anyway, I seem to remember reading somewhere (Slack, maybe?) that this >species' seeds usually germinate quickly and easily. So I wonder if maybe >the seeds I got are either old or duds. Has anyone else got these seed >bank seeds to sprout?? I've had a couple seedbank Nepenthes sprout but that was a batch from long ago. None of this new stuff came up. I didn't do anything fancy. Just put them on the soil surface and waited. I thought I remember reading (Slack, maybe?) that Nepenthes seed were fast to germinate, but that doesn't seem to be the concensus of the people I know. Well some news from the (radiatively chilled) greenhouse. My U. calycifida from Christoph Belanger flowered and, much to my boredom, turned out to be a clone of my `spotted flower' form. Snore. BUT, some good news from the Byblis front. I attacked many individuals with my tuning fork and found the following: 1)B. gigantea seems to have some swelling ovaries. Seems some pollination efforts may have worked. 2)My B. liniflora `Kununurra,' which Allen thinks is a new species, has finally succumbed! Up til now I have been entirely unsuccessful in getting pollen. The tuning fork did the trick. 3)B. liniflora `Darwin'---tuning fork also works, but may not be necessary. This plant is really civilized---you touch the anthers with the fork, and the pollen is released and falls directly onto the (female) stigma. Quite cooperative, and this was appreciated by me. Also I am thrilled to note my specimen of Genlisea (hispidula?) from Christoph is getting quite large and my leaf cutting from it struck! I immediately took three more cuttings. If I build up a base of plants I'll be able to start distributing them, as long as I don't do anything stupid. Lastly, something VERY STRANGE has come up in my D. banksii seed pot. I have never seen this plant, nor do I know anything about it. Well, Something is in my pot which looks like a cross between a tuberous and a pygmy Drosera. It looks most like D. pygmaea, but instead of forming a snug ground hugging rosette it is erect, holding its leaves like a tiny D. capensis. What is more, the elliptical leaves (1 mm across) are bright red (lamina, the petioles are green), and peltate. I've never seen anything quite like this plant. It is surely very similar to a pygmy of some sort, but I have about 35 spp of those and this is different. Anybody ever grown D. banksii? Does this sound like it? Well, gotta go. What a pisser---I got pick pocketed this weekend. Really annoying. BAMR ################### From: stuf Date: Mon, 21 Oct 91 18:34:58 MST Subject: mjc It looks like i have one N. tentaculata seedling up. We just had a big plant sale at the Bot garden and I bought a nice Melocactus azurius var. pachycanthus, if any O' you are interested in such things :-) (It's a sky-blue barrel cactus from Brazil. No cephalium yet.) Speaking of succulents, Barry; how is your Edithicolea grandis? Did it flower? MJC ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 91 12:53:10 +1000 Subject: Re: Genlisea >>Recent "expeditions" to a local CP haunt (Langwarrin Flora and Fauna >>Reserve) were quite successful. Along the cleared fire break near the >>car park are > > >As usual, I was very irritated to read your account of seeing all those >CP. Really irritating indeed! :-) > I have recently gotten a clone that is >actually larger, and produces big stemmy plants. It's also producing seed >and I think I'll have enough to stuff the mattress AND feed the soviets. Sounds good - maybe you can swap us some of the seed (and uglinosa seed too?) for the peltata seed (which is almost ready for posting to you all). >Lastly, something VERY STRANGE has come up in my D. banksii seed pot. >I have never seen this plant, nor do I know anything about it. Well, >Something is in my pot which looks like a cross between a tuberous and >a pygmy Drosera. It looks most like D. pygmaea, but instead of forming a >snug ground hugging rosette it is erect, holding its leaves like a tiny >D. capensis. What is more, the elliptical leaves (1 mm across) are >bright red (lamina, the petioles are green), and peltate. I've never >seen anything quite like this plant. It is surely very similar to a >pygmy of some sort, but I have about 35 spp of those and this is >different. Anybody ever grown D. banksii? Does this sound like it? I know that many of the "rainbow" sundews (peltata etc.) produce a rosette of leaves before sending up the main stem, but never that small. I'll have a look at our books, but something that springs immediately to mind is that for some reason, Erickson placed banksii at the end of the drosera section of her book ("Plants of Prey"). This always puzzled me, since it should have been with the other rainbows. Maybe it is a weird plant! The other possibility is that it really is a pygmy "weed" - not all of them are ground huggers (I think). ****** According to Rica Erickson's book, it sounds like you've got a D. banksii seedling! "Lower leaves minute and withered, increasing in size to about 1mm across (huge!) on very slender leaf stalks up to 5mm long..." Suprisingly, it seems that this plant is not tuberous "..no bulb." and may be an annual (not stated, but possible - keep your seeds if you get any, just in case). Now I know why it was stuck at the end of the Drosera section... Some of our newer Utrics are flowering this year (yey!). U. capensis has a nice but small flower which is pale purple on the corolla with two dark spots on the lower lip, just below the "large" (comparitively) palate. The upper lip of the corolla it quite pointed and notched/divided. Looks very nice. The U. peltata and U. praelonga (bought as a U. tricolor :-( ) have several flower stalks, as does the U. pentdactyla and (of course) U. sandersonii, livida and subulata (which is growing in most pots in the greenhouse - @#$#%^#$ weed!). U. menziesii looks like it's dead :-( I hope it managed to produce a tuber or two... Drosera binatas are all growing well and sending up flower stalks. Even the dichotoma "(not so) giant" is seeming to be growing well for once... ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 91 18:19:43 MST XSubject: Re: Genlisea >According to Rica Erickson's book, it sounds like you've got a D. banksii >seedling! "Lower leaves minute and withered, increasing in size to about 1mm I looked at the library copy of this book (I still can't find a damned copy!) and came to the same conclusion. I hope I can sustain the plant past this first one. >and U. praelonga (bought as a U. tricolor :-( ) have several flower stalks, as >does the U. pentdactyla and (of course) U. sandersonii, livida and subulata Sounds like you have a nice clone of bisquamata (capensis). My clone is a bit, well, bland. Not well coloured. Report back when your ``pentadactyla'' flowers. It should look much like the bisquamata, but with 4 deep notches (making the five fingers) instead of the two smaller notches on the bisquamata (making the lower lip only three lobed). He told me something that irritated the $%&*@ out of me. He said the clump of U. resupinata I sent him is sending up scapes. I'VE BEEN GROWING THIS DAMN PLANT FOR A $%@# 2 YEARS AND HE HAS IT FOR 2 MONTHS AND IT FLOWERS! I'VE BEEN GIVING THE DAMNED PLANTS EVERY SPECIAL TREATMENT I CAN THINK OF AND HIS FLOWERS IN TWO MONTHS! ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 17:41:45 MST XSubject: Re: Genlisea >Subject: D. collinseae question. > In a nutshell, does it go dormant? Mine is died back, I > think it's still alive, but I'm wondering if it's normal > or if this is life threatening. No, at least not in the sense of regressing to a hibernaculum. Mine do slow down substantially after producing seed each year. As the leaves die back the plant gets smaller. With any luck enough will remain so it will come back to life next year. If you still can, take a leaf cutting as insurance (it's very good on leaf cuttings), since seed is much slower. Anyone ever grow D. cistiflora to an appreciable size? Mine is about a year old and still less than 1cm across. It is a red flowered clone and I wanna see it flower! BAMR ################### From: MAHARAJ@MCMASTER.BITNET Date: Tue, 5 Nov 91 17:41:45 MST Subject: D. cistiflora >Anyone ever grow D. cistiflora to an appreciable size? Mine is about a >year old and still less than 1cm across. It is a red flowered clone >and I wanna see it flower! >BAMR I have tried on many an occasion to reclimatize mature plants (normal and var. zecheri forms) to northern hemisphere growing conditions but without luck. Plants sent from South African growers in the growing state NEVER grew and eventually rotted. One plant, however, limped along for one growing season but never emerged the following spring. I've also got a red flowering clone raised from seed which is at the 1 cm high mark - my most mature batch. The working hypothesis for success with this species - as with most other "difficult" South African species no doubt - is to keep it cool (10 say 3-4 hours/ day). So its one of those plants that should do well right next to your N. rajah! Rob ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 91 17:20:56 MST XSubject: Re: D. cistiflora > So its one of those plants that should do well right next to your >N. rajah! Oh yeah, and under my man-eating plant of madagascar. >plants have cut back on growth. I have no doc on collinseae: >is it tropical? Jah mon, dat it is. >Oh, what's the procedure for removing gemmae? A mystery pygmy Following Gordon Snelling's instructions in a recent CPN, I made an aspirator and it works pretty well. If you don't have one of those, I'd suggest putting some droplets of water on the gemmae mass, then knocking them out with a toothpick, and using surface tension to carry them away. What a pain, especially if you grow more than a dozen or so species. The water droplet is really there to prevent gemmae from getting flung a few feet into another pot, into the corner, up your nose, in your mouth, and in your eyes.* Some gemmae, especially the flat ones like pygmaea or X Badgerup, don't get propelled by the stipules this way. *Yes, I've had every one of these things happen before I used my aspirator. BAMR ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 16:14:49 +1100 Subject: Gemmae >>Oh, what's the procedure for removing gemmae? A mystery pygmy > (Probably mentioned this before, but anyway) We use a piece of cloth, which has holes too small for gemmae to get through but enough for air, tied over the end of a vacuum-cleaner nozzle and simply suck them up! CAUTION: make sure your plants are very well rooted... (cut down the airflow with more cloth if it's too much) +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John Taylor [The Banshee] | Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au | (Department of Applied Physics) | | MOKING IS A HEALTH HAZARD. | Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: ATLAS@JHUVMS.BITNET Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 16:14:49 +1100 Subject: cp Well, I didn't win the lottery, but my mystery seedling is DEFINITELY a drosophyllum. It kinda looks like a hand with 4 fingers reaching out of the soil, with the two middle fingers rolled up. However, the cotyledons are very much underdeveloped...maybe this means not enough light?? Last night, I buried all my sarrs and dionaea in the backyard. I have this sinking feeling that this bury/dormancy thing won't work, but it seems to be the best option. It looks like I might also have a N. Fusca seedling growing, but it's too early to tell for sure. The other day, I read an old CPN article that said it some- times takes 6 months or more for Nepenthes seed to sprout, so here's to waiting!! Speaking of Nepenthes: Mike, the N. x Hookeriana you sent is doing very well, and its first new pitcher, a nice FAT one, is about to open. One of the two aquatic utric's you sent is doing well, the other one bought the farm courtesy of my cat, who knocked the container over. Bad kitty!!! ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 17:15:47 MST XSubject: Re: cp >I usually don't get a chance to see the color - I just kill 'em as soon >as I see 'em. Use pyrethrum spray and make sure you hit them or it >won't be any good (we bought concentrate - it works out cheaper and you >can strengthen the mix if it didn't work the first time). Ever since Don Schnell told me he uses pyrethrum sprays without problems I've been looking all over for it. The only place I've ever seen it is in Tick and Flea dip. I've also been looking, fruitlessly, for malathion in powder form. Don says he uses ``malathion 25% WP'' where WP stands for ``wettable powder.'' Seen plenty of Diazinon powder but no Malathion. Apparently some of the solvents used in liquid malathion are potentially CP unfriendly. On a related note, I read once that ``Round-Up'' (a commonly used herbicide) is dangerous even though it claims it isn't. Get this loophole: none of the *active* ingredients are dangerous to people, but the 97% *inert* ingredients are! The inert ingredients don't have to be detailed on the label. At least, this is what I've read. >(Probably mentioned this before, but anyway) We use a piece of cloth, which >has holes too small for gemmae to get through but enough for air, tied over >the end of a vacuum-cleaner nozzle and simply suck them up! CAUTION: make >sure your plants are very well rooted... This is funny. No, I'm sure you haven't posted this information before! My N. maxima hybrid from Don has produced a fantastic and big pitcher. Simply lovely. This plant has gone to my very short list of favoured Nepenthes, EVEN though it's a hybrid. BAMR ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 12:46:45 +1100 XSubject: Re: cp >Ever since Don Schnell told me he uses pyrethrum sprays without problems >I've been looking all over for it. The only place I've ever seen it is in >Tick and Flea dip. I've also been looking, fruitlessly, for malathion in >powder form. Don says he uses ``malathion 25% WP'' where WP stands for >``wettable powder.'' Seen plenty of Diazinon powder but no Malathion. We haven't had any problems here. You could try some of the other "herbal" sprays such as garlic or even "Cleansel" (spel?) insecticidal soap - if you can find them (disclaimer: I haven't tried either product, but they are probably safe). We have the liquid malathion products (aphid or catepiller sprays) but prefer pyrethrum - not quite as nasty as the chemical brews. Alternatively, get some pyrethrum plants/seeds and make your own! I think you mix powdered *unopened* flower buds (more pyrethrum in them) with kerosene, and possibly dilute with water, but I'm not sure. >>(Probably mentioned this before, but anyway) We use a piece of cloth, >>which has holes too small for gemmae to get through but enough for >>air, tied over the end of a vacuum-cleaner nozzle and simply suck them >>up! CAUTION: make sure your plants are very well rooted... > > >This is funny. No, I'm sure you haven't posted this information >before! Well, it really does work. Just hold the "baffled" nozzle close to the "rosettes" of gemmae and gently poke at them with a pen/stick/etc if they are a bit stubborn. Then put the gemmae coated nozzle over a sheet of paper and turn off the power, and coax any stuck gemmae off the cloth. ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 91 09:35:12 +1100 Subject: Drosera auriculata >John, received your D. auriculata seeds yesterday, Wednesday, the >6th. I planted them in a mixture of 1 part perlite and 3 parts peat.. >just scattered the seeds on the surface. Don't know if this is >correct...how long does it take to germinate? Sounds fine, although I use sand instead of perlite (only recently discovered a source for perlite & vermiculite - are there any plants which LOVE these in the mix instead of sand?). Germination varies, but should be only a couple of weeks at the most. Best just to keep them watered and see what happens... >I got it yesterday. Thanks much! Are there >any special instructions to plant them? Currently >I have them in the 'fridge. Should I just plant them >and keep them warm & wet, or do they require a regimen >of heat/cold/fire, etc? Just plant them! Since they would be germinating in autumn-winter in the wild, cool & wet is probably closer to the mark. Fire would most likely destroy the seeds - their tubers would survive the fire, so they don't need to produce asbestos-lined seeds like other plants! >Subject: How does D. peltata grow? Up of course! :-) >Mine has produced the rosette, but has not started climbing >yet. This got me curious as to what the cycle is for the >tuberosities, or specifically, peltata. How many months >does it grow for? Of that, when does it start climbing and >for how long does it climb. I sort of wonder why it starts >as a rosette and then starts climbing later too. It grows for up to 6 months (autumn-spring). Actual times depend upon local conditions, phase of the moon, stock market prices etc. etc. "Climbing" as you put it is also quite variable. Some plants I have had (D. auriculata dressed up as D. peltata) don't bother producing a rosette, and just start "climbing". Others spend a fair amount of time as a rosette before producing a rather short "climbing" stem. 0-2 months in the rosette phase would be about right. The rosette may be for the plant to gain some energy before producing the "climbing" stem - remember that it has been feeding off its tuber while struggling to the surface. The rosette may also act as a brace for the stem to protect it against strong winds ... any budding engineers out there want to test this? Must dash ... off to the Victorian Carnivorous Plant Society show - details in a later edition! +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul Taylor [Falcon] Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | C/O s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au Melbourne, Australia. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 91 13:52:19 +1100 Subject: VCPS show Usual assortment of CP's, in mediocre to great condition. Best plant IMHO was a Heliamphora heterodoxa *in flower*. Also of interest were some flowering Darlingtonia plants, but their traps weren't so great. Some of the prizes awarded to plants were rather strange - best exhibit went to a large pot of Sarracenia purpurea ssp. venosa (in flower), which did not seem to me to have much to offer. The sales table was well stocked, but most of the plants on sale we already have in our collection. A quick trip to Gardenworld on the way back turned up some new arrivals - we ended up buying a Drosera falconeri and a D. petiolaris "true form". I've put them in our terrarium inside our greenhouse alongside our D. adelae which is thriving. Any growing tips for these two species? +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul Taylor [Falcon] Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | C/O s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au Melbourne, Australia. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 91 20:31:14 +1100 Subject: D. falconeri Just in case you (like me) have never heard of this species, here's a brief description: This must be one of the strangest looking sundews I've seen. D. falconeri has a rosette of Dionaea (VFT) like leaves, which have the same broad leaf stalk but instead of the "bear-trap" it has an almost perfectly round leaf. The new leaves point upwards and when they open, they gradually move down to ground level (judging by the young leaves on my plant). Most of the plants on sale had somewhat red-tinted leaves, but mine is rather green (should change with sunlight). I've no idea what the flowers will be like, but the usual, dull white flowers are more than likely. Also in the pot (and one or two of the others) is a small amount of Utric. I'm hoping it's something different from what we've already got, but I've a nasty feeling it's U. sublata :-( (at least it came for nothing) Does anyone know where this species originates from? ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 91 15:45:56 +1100 XSubject: Re: D. falconeri >He doesn't get concerned with liverworts. He sort of likes them. I normally leave them alone, even encourage them to grow (I like them too), but I draw the line when they start smothering my Utrics. Our liverworts have small cup-like growths which hold gemmae or spore-packets, with the usual ground hugging leaves with undersides covered in fine roots. I haven't had any of the "star-growing" species for quite a while. BTW, picking them out of the pots seems to have worked - although there's still some small plants in there which are likely to take off again soon :-( ################### From: dngess01 (Don) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 91 14:57:48 -0500 Subject: CP >Also in Gardenworld was a CP book by Juniper, Robbins, and Joel (can't >remember the title). Only the dust cover was on display (book behind >counter), and at AU$145 (possibly more!) I haven't been game enough to >have a look at it... Has anyone seen this book? Is it worth the >price? The label on the cover also states that there is absolutely no >discounts available on it - what's the going price in the US/Canada? A CPN of last year lists this book as going for $150. Not what I call bargain- priced! The college library has this book. I think it's fairly interesting, Barry doesn't like it at all - he said in a previous message that it contains a lot of wrong information. It looks like the authors took the CP literature of the last 200+ years and re-hashed it into this book. D. falconeri: This species is part of the D. petiolaris complex. It grows around the Finniss River in the Northern Territories (wherever that is). The Sept./Dec. CPN has a nice picture of D. falconeri on the cover, along with an article on the D. petiolaris "complex". An old article in CPN says the plant is found in soils with an alkaline pH of 8. This species may go dormant in the dry season. Pyrethrum: I have a catalog from a place that sells Pyrethrum insecticide. They also have a gizmo, price of $43, that automatically dispenses the spray every 15 minutes. A month supply of Pyrethrum goes for $10. Look locally first from greenhouse suppliers or from places that sell organic gardening supplies. Also, check the labels, "Red Arrow" is the brand name of one insecticide that contains pyrethrum. I've been just using Safer Insecticide Soap myself although it doesn't seem to kill scale. Also from the catalog, you can get "beneficial insects". They list such things as "scale predators", lady bugs, mantis egg cases, "mealybug predators", "beneficial nematodes", green lacewings etc. A recent rec.gardens messages stated that a spray containing Ivory soap + water was just as effective as the Safer insecticide. The phone #'s for getting free catalogs are 274-9676 and 331-3994 (both 1-800). D. collinsiae: My plant is in flower. Nice lavender flowers. To the person who said the plant went "dormant", try looking for beasties first. I had two plants, but one of them was eaten down to the ground by a slug. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 19:45:51 MST XSubject: Re: CP This reminds me of something that happened when I was driving on the Air Force base where I teach astronomy classes in the evening. I admit I was driving a bit fast, and was pulled over. When prompted by the cop I reached into my glove compartment for the vehicle registration. Well earlier that day I had been sucking gemmae with my aspirator. My aspirator is a glass erlenmeyer flask, with a rubber stopper with two holes, and a couple of rubber hoses tipped with glass tubes. All in all it looks a lot like some form of exotic drug paraphernalia. When my glove box opened, this thing flopped out and the cop's eyes got REALLY BIG. By the time I convinced them I was not another statistic for the WAR ON DRUGS, other cops had been called, and it was very exciting. >Speaking of all those insecticides etc. I sprayed one of my S. purpurea(?) >with diazanon mixed with Captan and it died.... Must have been the Captan, Earl. I use Diazanon on Sarrs with no ill effects. I got a letter from Gordon in which he addresses some of the E-mail topics of conversation. He says he winters Sarrs outdoors. He only gets 2--3 weeks of frost. His purp purps from Canada don't do so well. (I add that mine, which get the deluxe northern Arizona catered hibernation service, attended to by the lovely and talented Bridgett Meyers-Rice, do well). He also thinks hibernation is not induced so much by temperature drops as decrease in light exposure. He said, for example, he's induced hibernation in D. rotundifolia by putting them in the shade, same ambient temperature. He doesn't get concerned with liverworts. He sort of likes them. Don, he says he's ``not 100% sure in regards to the P. kondoi either. My large plant at this point appears almost identical to a neighboring P. esseriana.'' Davin, he grows Darlingtonia out doors in Southern Cal and its hot there. He doesn't use chilled H20 but he does water daily. They sit in water. The humidity rarely goes over 50%, but can go over 90% at night. Rob Allen, The Nepenthes labelled K.K. Sabah means Kota Kinabalu Saba. Hope that means more to you than it does to me! BAMR ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 91 10:25:54 +1100 XSubject: Re: CP >A CPN of last year lists this book as going for $150. Not what I call >bargain priced! The college library has this book. I think it's >fairly interesting, Barry doesn't like it at all - he said in a >previous message that it contains a lot of wrong information. It looks >like the authors took the CP literature of the last 200+ years and >re-hashed it into this book. Why the ridiculous price-tag? Surely they can't expect to sell many (especially to poor CP enthusiasts). >D. falconeri: >This species is part of the D. petiolaris complex. It grows around the >Finniss River in the Northern Territories (wherever that is). >The Sept./Dec. CPN has a nice picture of D. falconeri on the cover, along >with an article on the D. petiolaris "complex". An old article in >CPN says the plant is found in >soils with an alkaline pH of 8. This species may go dormant in the dry >season. What?! I was expecting it to come from deepest, darkest Africa (or somewhere equally remote, not from our own "backyard"! When was it discovered? (None of the books I have even mentions it - especially not Rica Erickson's "Plants of Prey" a (once) fairly concise guide to our native CPs). "Complex" is definitely the right word for it - it doesn't look anything like D. petiolaris! What other plants are in this complex? >Pyrethrum: >I have a catalog from a place that sells Pyrethrum insecticide. They also >have a gizmo, price of $43, that automatically dispenses the spray every >15 minutes. A month supply of Pyrethrum goes for $10. Look locally first Well, pyrethrum is not absolutely safe for humans. According to "The Colour Dictionary of Herbs & Herbalism", "prolonged human contact may lead to allergic dermatitis, allergic rhinitis and asthma". So best to use it only when required rather than every 15 minutes on the off chance that you might catch an aphid sneaking into your collection... However, compared to most sprays, it is very safe to use. ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 91 16:41:55 +1100 Subject: Nepenthes After thinking that we had lost our N. mirabilis ssp. echistoma (it dried out even though the terrarium has an inch or so of water in the base below the pots), it turns out that it is producing at least seven new shoots along the stem. (I'm not sure whether to be happy or not - I'm sick of fussy Nepenthes!) The N. alata is still hanging in there too, although one of the two stems may be dying back. ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 91 16:49:04 +1100 Subject: drosophyllum We're ordering some Drosophyllum seed from Fred Howell this week (along with another 8 Utric. species :-) What is the most successful method of growing these seeds? The only specific reference we have is Slack's double clay pot set-up which is somewhat awkward. BTW, there was a nice flowering example of Drosophyllum at the VCPS show. I wonder if it will survive the travelling... ################### From: ATLAS@JHUVMS.BITNET Date: Sun, 10 Nov 91 16:49:04 +1100 Subject: Re: drosophyllum For a "simplified" nested pot method for growing drosophyllum, see the September 1989 issue of CPN. This method uses an inner clay pot with no drainage, and an outer plastic pot. The benefit of this method, best I can tell, is that you can stand the (outer) pot in a couple of cm of water. I am kinda paranoid about losing my one drosophyllum seedling, so I plan to "slack-pot" it once it gets a little bigger... "But daddy, I've got 4 leaves already!! Aren't I big enough to be Slack-potted yet??" "No. You'll get your outer pot when you get a little bigger." "But all the other lusitanicums at school have theirs already!! Please??" ################### From: MAHARAJ@MCMASTER.BITNET Date: Sun, 10 Nov 91 16:49:04 +1100 Subject: Seed Bank Nepenthes and Mexican Pings. Massive germination from the N. rafflesiana (K.K.Sabah) seed and now starting to notice mild germination from N. fusca and N. tentaculata after about 3 months since sowing. Seed are on a 70:30 peat/spahagnum mix, enclosed in a baggie and under lights at about 8 inches (20 cm). Temperature fluctuates between 80 and 65 F during day/night cycles. This weekend I ventured up to Guelph to visit "Magic" Hallchurch (aka. Grant) and his robust-growing collection which he grows under flourescent lights in his cool basement. He has some remarkable sized P. zecheri plants exceeding 7 inches (18 cm) in diameter. Very beautiful lance-shaped leaves that color up with a light tinge of red in good light. One P. colimensis plant in winter dormancy had over 12 divisions and flowering profusely. This plant looks very similar to P. caudata except for slightly shorter leaves and flower characteristics (fatter spur). He claims that certain Mexican Pings require a basic mix for better than mediocre growth, examples being P. gypsicola, P. zecheri, P. X "George Sargent", P. moranensis rosei, and P. X "mola". One favoring an acidic mix is P. colimensis. His mixes are 1:1 peat/vermiculite with 1 tablespoon of limestone (CaCO3) per 700 mL of mix and pure milled Sphagnum. I noted that the substrates for his Pings. are just barely moist. I think that the most important variable in his growing success is the cool temperatures afforded by his basement (ca. 55-75 F). Rob M. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 91 09:21:10 PST Subject: Re: drosophyllum >>For a "simplified" nested pot method for growing drosophyllum, see the >>September 1989 issue of CPN. This method uses an inner clay pot with >>no drainage, and an outer plastic pot. The benefit of this method, best >>I can tell, is that you can stand the (outer) pot in a couple of cm of >>water. My setup is a drained clay pot, w/ "crockery" over the drainhole, nested in the aforementioned shallow pot w/ soggy moss between the inner and outer pot. I still leave this in up to a cm of water and have no problems, because the base of the inner pot is about 1cm above the water. Water is wicked into the soil through the sides of the clay pot. Plant seems reasonably happy, but could use more sun. BTW Barry, me not being an astronomer, and stupid to boot, I couldn't figure out why I was getting less sun in my backyard spot than I used to. I thought about it, and figure it must because the Sun is enscribing (?) a different path this time of the year, rather than the local trees having gotten bigger. My backyard gets a few hours of sun as the sun crosses east to weast, but I'm boardered on all sides by trees and condos, so right now I'm not getting much sun. Does this sound reasonable, or have the trees really grown that much? r. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 91 17:54:39 MST XSubject: Re: drosophyllum >This weekend I ventured up to Guelph to visit "Magic" Hallchurch (aka. >Grant) >favoring an acidic mix is P. colimensis. His mixes are 1:1 peat/vermiculite >with 1 tablespoon of limestone (CaCO3) per 700 mL of mix and pure milled >Sphagnum. I noted that the substrates for his Pings. are just barely moist. >I think that the most important variable in his growing success is the cool >temperatures afforded by his basement (ca. 55-75 F). Rob, this is good data (the laser printer is churning out a hard copy). So he uses pure milled Sphagnum for the ones that like acidic, and the peat/vermiculite with a smudgmo of CaCO3 for the others. Does he add any CaCO3 via water occasionally? I suppose not too much since the solubility of CaCO3 is none too high, if I remember those nasty chemistry tables right. Also, does he make any effort to keep the acidic and basic pots in separate trays? I'd love to see a first rate Mex Ping collection some time. (at least our Australian comrades don't file reports about irritatingly successful Ping field trips!) The only Non-USA/CANADA pings I've got are lusitanica, moranensis, cyclosecta, ehlersa, and gysicola---the cuttings you sent me some time ago were demolished in the mail. >couldn't figure out why I was getting less sun in my backyard >spot than I used to. I thought about it, and figure it must >because the Sun is enscribing (?) a different path this time >of the year, rather than the local trees having gotten bigger. >My backyard gets a few hours of sun as the sun crosses east >to weast, but I'm boardered on all sides by trees and condos, >so right now I'm not getting much sun. Does this sound reasonable, >or have the trees really grown that much? Astro lesson 1: Take your latitude (I haven't the slightest idea of where Palo Alto Cal is, so I'll guess 35 degrees N), and subtract it from 90. That's the angular distance of the sun from the horizon at noon on the Equinoxes (around Sept 22, March 22). At that time the sun rises due east, sets due west. On the longest day of summer, the sun reaches an elevation 23.5 degrees higher than this. It rises NE, sets NW. The shortest day of winter, subtract 23.5 degrees, sun rises SE, sets SW. The long/shortest days are on about June 22, Dec 22., not necessarily in this order. So anyway, the sun changes in max elevation by 47 degrees---that means a big change in light and heating. So we get seasons. Voila! >- Using my trusty old Crystal Light greenhouse w/ integral > 24" (2) flourescents. I'd try to get a little more light. I use 4 bulbs and stash my Nepenthes in a 10G terrarium at work. It used to work fine until the X superba humongus monster from Don B. started growing. Help! BAMR ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 91 12:07:15 +1100 XSubject: Re: drosophyllum I've managed to locate the Finniss River on a map of the Northern Territory. It appears that there could be a town called "Finniss River" near the watery version (just a short, unlabelled, blue squiggle on the maps I looked at). It's (very roughly) 50 kilometres SW of the capital, Darwin, and east (about 40? km) of Fog (?) Bay. I've absolutely no idea what access could be there, but if there is a town, maybe some sort of road/track exists. >spot than I used to. I thought about it, and figure it must >because the Sun is enscribing (?) a different path this time >of the year, rather than the local trees having gotten bigger. That's more or less it. The North Pole is pointing/tilted away from the sun, whereas the South in pointing towards it. In six months time the roles are reversed. So right now the sun is lower in the sky, and up for less time, for you northerners, whereas down here we are getting a higher sun for longer. (Well, thats are pretty simplified explanation of it). ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 91 13:31:01 PST Subject: office plants I'm moving to a new office soon. It will be a single office, with no outside windows, so I'm looking to make it a bit more liveable by growing some CP in my office. Since our building is air-conditioned, it's pretty dry. I'm thinking of one of two approaches: - A single potted plant w/ incandescent grow-light on a stand, and a bell jar or clear plastic tube around the plant for humidity. - Using my trusty old Crystal Light greenhouse w/ integral 24" (2) flourescents. In both cases I'm wondering if the suggested lighting would be enough for good colour and growth (I'm not concerned about blooms). I'm also looking for species suggestions. Thanks, Robert P.S. my attempts to pollinate P. agnata may have borne fruit. The first flower stalk dried up, but the second seems to have a swelling seed pod forming. I'm going to try pollinating the third and fourth flower as well. I'll keep people posted as to the success, in case anyone wants seed. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 91 12:33:52 MST XSubject: Re: office plants >ended up buying a Drosera falconeri and a D. petiolaris "true form". >I've put them in our terrarium inside our greenhouse alongside our D. >adelae which is thriving. Any growing tips for these two species? I grew falconeri not very successfully for a year then it snuffed it. I've had petiolaris `Kununurra' for about 1.5 yrs and have done very well with it. It is my suspicion this plant does not like terraria because the humidity may be too high? Or maybe it is prone to fungus? In any event, it does very well in my greenhouse, full sun. Temps range around 30-35 C in the summer. In the winter I let them chill a little to maybe 10 C, but not lower. This sends them into dormancy where they stay for about 3--4 months. Then they come back and flower. No one has had luck getting seed yet, unless you cross pollinate. Following Allen Lowrie's advice, I have mine in 50/50 peat-perlite. I have mine in a deep pot (13 cm), about 2.5 cm in water. I don't know what I'm doing right, but the plant is producing new growth crowns at its base. The one in the terrarium I had died. >equally remote, not from our own "backyard"! When was it discovered? >What other plants are in this complex? It's a recent discovery---about 5 years back I think. It was written up in CPN then. That explains why it wasn't in Erickson. Allen Lowrie's been doing a lot of field work on these plants. He's found several interesting forms of petiolaris, which may or may not be some kind of distinct taxa. From memory (which according to my wife, and despite my claims to the contrary, is not infallible) there are D. falconeri D. lanata D. dilatato-petiolaris D. petiolaris D. petiolaris "erect" D. petiolaris "medium rosette" D. petiolaris "mini rosette" D. petiolaris "Kununurra" >Also in Gardenworld was a CP book by Juniper, Robbins, and Joel (can't >remember Well, maybe not a LOT of wrong information. Just some errors that lowly little ol' me could detect. I'm applying the tip-of-the-iceberg principle. If I can catch *these* errors, how many others lie undetected? Don Schnell reviewed the book and gave a very mixed review, too. >Why the ridiculous price-tag? Surely they can't expect to sell many >(especially to poor CP enthusiasts). >From the economics class I took in antedeluvian times, I think this is called inelastic demand. Whatever the price, there will be a fixed number of buyers. Mostly research and locations of higher learning. There's no cultural info. My advice is to check it out from the library, and photocopy the first couple of chapters since they contain some useful information on habitats. There are a couple of other interesting sections, so hit those with the copier. Copywrites be damned! ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 91 11:11:34 +1100 XSubject: Re: office plants >I grew falconeri not very successfully for a year then it snuffed it. >I've had petiolaris `Kununurra' for about 1.5 yrs and have done very >well with it. It is my suspicion this plant does not like terraria >because the humidity may be too high? Or maybe it is prone to fungus? >In any event, it does very well in my greenhouse.... Actually, they are in the greenhouse, not in the nepenthes terrarium in the greenhouse as Paul posted, so it may be OK. >No one has had luck getting seed yet, unless you cross pollinate. Following >Allen Lowrie's advice, I have mine in 50/50 peat-perlite. I have mine in a >deep pot (13 cm), about 2.5 cm in water. I don't know what I'm doing right, >but the plant is producing new growth crowns at its base. The one in the >terrarium I had died. The mix our plants came in definitely contains perlite, so it is quite likely to be a 50/50 peat/perlite mix - they may actually originate from Alan Lowrie but I can't be sure of Gardenworld's sources. I even suspect that some of their plants came from Fred Howell (same mislabelling ;-) ) >From memory (which according to my wife, and despite my claims to the >contrary, is not infallible) there are > >D. falconeri >D. lanata >D. dilatato-petiolaris >D. petiolaris >D. petiolaris "erect" >D. petiolaris "medium rosette" >D. petiolaris "mini rosette" >D. petiolaris "Kununurra" Well, that's another two new species I haven't heard of before, not to mention all the petiolaris forms... >>but I draw the line when they start smothering my Utrics. Our liverworts >>have small cup-like growths which hold gemmae or spore-packets, with the >>usual > >I'd like to see this sometime. I've seen photos. Assuming they're still alive, next time we send you seed I'll try to send some gemmae (?), so you can have fun weeding 'em out of your Utrics too! >Oh, in Jan Schlauer's plant list, he lists D. auriculata as being actually >D. peltata ssp. auriculata. Well, until I hear that it has been officially renamed as a subspecies of peltata, I'm going to continue calling it D. auriculata. (and even then I may not change the name - there are several differences between them that should warrant it being a separate species, at least in my book). ################### From: MAHARAJ@MCMASTER.BITNET Date: Tue, 12 Nov 91 11:11:34 +1100 Subject: Mexican Pings >Rob, this is good data (the laser printer is churning out a hard copy). >So he uses pure milled Sphagnum for the ones that like acidic, and the >peat/vermiculite with a smudgmo of CaCO3 for the others. Does he add any >CaCO3 via water occasionally? I suppose not too much since the solubility >of CaCO3 is none too high, if I remember those nasty chemistry tables >right. Also, does he make any effort to keep the acidic and basic pots in >separate trays? I'd love to see a first rate Mex Ping collection some time. No CaCO3 added to water, though Joe Mazrimas swears by this method (CPN, ca. 1978) but uses agricultural lime (Ca(OH)2). I remember reading in CPN that vermiculite is a special soil aeration medium in which the CaCO3 or Ca(OH)2 can embed or 'hide-out' in its clefts or pores. Subsequent waterings can leach out the calcium salts into the growing medium, thereby maintaining a slightly alkaline pH which most Mexican Pings. seem to appreciate or even need. Thus a combination of alkaline watering and growing medium MAY be too much for these calciphiles and I would stick to one technique and not both. He does not place his pots in trays, as most Mexican Pings need good drainage. Grant waters from above -very mildly- when necessary, which is about once a week or so in his naturally humid and cool basement. I should correct my- self from yesterday's message: P. colimensis will happily grow in BOTH milled Sphagnum and the peat/vermiculite/CaCO3 mix and not just the former one. There appears to be certain species - P. colimensis, P. caudata, P. agnata, P. pachuca and P. ehlersae - which do not favor a certain mix, but time and further experimentation will tell. Rob (M.) ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 91 18:32:08 MST XSubject: Re: Mexican Pings >No CaCO3 added to water, though Joe Mazrimas swears by this method (CPN, ca. >1978) but uses agricultural lime (Ca(OH)2). I remember reading in CPN that >vermiculite is a special soil aeration medium in which the CaCO3 or Ca(OH)2 Something that perplexes me about this, and I don't know enough chemistry for the answer.... It seems to me that peat is pretty darned acidic, and by adding a little bit of CaCO3, which is pretty insoluble to boot, you wouldn't do much to change the soil acidity. So, I contemplate several options... 1)In spite of my intuition, the soil does become alkaline. 2)Instead of needing alkaline, the Pings benefit from the Ca++ ions. 3)This is something ineffectual the CPer does to please him/her self. 4)Something else is going on (aka the cover your a** possibility) Comments on acid/base reactions, Rob M? On the usefulness of Ca++ to plants, Mike? >On a similar subject, do crosses with bicalcarata inherit the fangs? Yep! Now what you need to do is cross bicalc with a Nepenthes with a broad, shiney red lip at the entrance. (I think it's called the peristome). That would be pretty obviously carnivorous! >Thanks John. Barrys computations sent me into a tizzy >of math anxiety unmatched since I took calculus. I don't Critics, critics, critics. :) BAMR ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 91 18:38:03 MST XSubject: Re: Mexican Pings OK, its that time of the year again. I'm looking at my Nepenthes collection thinking I don't really NEED all these plants. I'm looking to get rid of a couple fully rooted hybrids, maybe even a species or two. I also have some cuttings I could make. Here's the list if there are any takers. The main reason I'm culling my collection is to make room for that fantastic N. X superba hybrid Don sent. Plant Origin Condition Comments 1)alata Paul McMillan Plant Very good clone 2)anamensis Rob M. cutting sort of boring 3)gracilis Mike C. Plant Good Pitchers 4)wrigleyana `Kosobe' Don B. Plant 5)X hookerae Gordon S. Plant Small pitchers 6)``X hookeriana'' Mike C. Plant, Excellent plant, cutting male, easy plant 7)X rokko Gordon S. Plant Nice pitchers 8)X trichocarpa Rob M. Plant 9)X williamsii Me Cutting Very easy Other comments: 4)Jan Schlauer's list says this is the same as N. alata 5)=rafflesiana X mirabilis, see CPN 16:3:68 6)I don't think the ID is right. Certainly one parent is rafflesiana. Dimorphic pitchers. A favourite hybrid of mine. 7)=maximaXthorelli, see Gordon Cheers' book, p. 2 8)=gracilisXampullaria 9)Super easy plant, will produce large pitchers freely. Sorry I can't send these out of the US, Taylor-guys. Also, there is absolutely no guarantee as to identification authenticity. I will have more ``X hookeriana'' and X williamsii cuttings in the future, these being very weedy plants. The cuttings are unrooted, and if you want I can root them for you but it may take a while (2-4 months*). Also in the (distant) future, maybe Maybe MAYBE some cuttings or rooted X superba, maxima, ventricosa, ampullaria `red' (not Cantley's red), and rafflesiana `dark'. I'll keep you posted, but will be happy to take early orders. *Once a cutting I had for Don took more than 6 months and never struck! I finally sent it to him unrooted. It was an ampullaria, and species always are slower than hybrids. I hope I get some takers on this stuff. I'm not above throwing plants out, you know. (heh heh heh...that ought to get them scared! shh!) BAMR ################### From: dngess01 (Don) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 91 23:19:43 -0500 Subject: CP talk Barry, that N. ampullaria you sent me is coming along nicely. I can probably even spare a cutting from it next spring if someone wants to get in line for it. Mike also sent an N. ampullaria "green" that is still alive but hasn't grown much. Where did you hear N. x trichocarpa is actually gracilis x ampullaria? It's listed at a species in the 1986 list. I noticed Rob also lists it as a hybrid. Of your Nepenthes you said you were giving away, I would appreciate cuttings or plants of alata, x hookerae, and/or williamsii. Hope you have plenty of room for the x "superba". Notice the quote marks around the name - this shows "superba" is a cultivar name. This plant is not the hybrid x superba, which is not a very exciting plant. I think I'll just keep calling it N. x "superba", although a CPN suggests calling it N. x curtisii. The plant I have is a vine three feet long and is producing leaves 16 inches with 8 inch pitchers (not to mention about a 12-inch tendril). I'll send my plant list out shortly to the group so we can see what each other is growing and maybe set up trades for next spring. Things going on in my CP collection: All my Sarracenia and U.S. Drosera are buried outside in the ground with about 6 inches of leaves on top of them. I took a peek at them today and they seem to be doing ok. The outdoor temperature has been below freezing for about a week now. My N. x ventricosa x sp. Talang has just finished making its second true leaf. A U. calycifida is still flowering. This is the variety with pink flowers and has leaves with purple veins. There has been about 18 flowers on the one flower stalk so far. No sign of seeds being produced from the old spent flowers on the lowest part of the flower stalk. There may be a seed that germinated from the D. stolonifera compacta. I noticed a speck of green on the moss/sand mixture. There is a close-out sale at a local garden supply center. I get get pH soil meters for $7.50. These were marked down from around $18. I can also get a nutrient meter for $6.50. ################### From: dngess01 (Don) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 91 22:16:58 -0500 XSubject: Re: CP talk Hooray! Two more seeds have germinated from N. x (ventricosa x sp. Talang). I now have three seedlings of this hybrid. In Kondo's article on Nepenthes, he mentions that he keeps a very high water level to germinate Nep seeds. He keeps the water right even with the top of the soil. Since I hadn't seen any new germination for a few months, I thought I'd try it, along with putting the seed tray in a place that was a little warmer (right next to a heat vent). Only two days after I did this, I noticed the two seeds germinating. It has now been 8 months since I've originally sowed the seeds. I wouldn't recommend keeping the water level extremely high for a long period of time as I would expect it to drive the oxygen out of the soil, turning the soil rancid (PU!!). Does anybody have a new seed list from Gordon? Any interesting species on the list? Any new Nepenthes? How about D. pauciflora or D. erythrorhiza? Barry, I forgot to mention yesterday that I got your letter with the D. auriculata seeds two days ago. There sure were plenty of seeds in the pack. My oldest D. peltata seedlings are starting to grow vertically. The biggest one has about 5 leaves on its vertical stem. They seem to produce two successive rosettes of leaves before they grow vertically. ################### From: MAHARAJ@MCMASTER.BITNET Date: Thu, 14 Nov 91 22:16:58 -0500 Subject: Exploring the CaCO3 mystery >Something that perplexes me about this, and I don't know enough >chemistry for the answer.... It seems to me that peat is pretty darned >acidic, and by adding a little bit of CaCO3, which is pretty insoluble >to boot, you wouldn't do much to change the soil acidity. So, I >contemplate several options... >1)In spite of my intuition, the soil does become alkaline. >2)Instead of needing alkaline, the Pings benefit from the Ca++ ions. >3)This is something ineffectual the CPer does to please him/her self. >4)Something else is going on (aka the cover your a** possibility) >Comments on acid/base reactions, Rob M? On the usefulness of Ca++ to plants, A good question. Something which got me scratching the noggin'. You are right: peat is weakly acidic and CaCO3 (and Ca(OH)2) are highly aqueous insoluble alkaline salts. However, one would expect that the small amount that dissolves in H2O (ie., moist substrate) will react in an acid/base fashion with the peat moss (Hypothesis A). To rationalize this assumption, we need to know that peat moss (and Sphagnum moss) are cationic ion exchangers, that is, they can exchange cations (eg., Ca++, Na+, Mg++, NH4+, etc., including H+ which confers acidity) with those in the growing medium. In particular, H+ ions in unspent or fresh peat, with Ca++ ions from the CaCO3. In chemical parlance: (peat moss)--2(H+) + CaCO3 ------> (peat moss)--Ca++ + H2CO3 H2CO3 ---------> H2O + CO2 (carbonic acid) Given that acid/base reactions are facile and proceed to completion to give a salt and water [(peat moss)--Ca++ and H2O in this case] and that the exchange capacity of the peat most has not been exceeded (since after all we've just added a smidgen of CaCO3), then we have SOME peat moss in the salt form (ie., (peat moss)--Ca++) and ALL of the CaCO3 has reacted (none remains in the medium). The benefit that the calciphilic Pings would gain - if you believe this hypothesis - would have to derived from the calcium salt form of the peat moss or from free Ca++ ions itself, as Ca++ can dissociate from the peat moss through exchange with other ions in the substate. Ca++ may be the important substance for proper growth in calciphilous plants. The other possible explaination, Hypothesis B, is simpler: CaCO3 may be deposited in the clefts of the vermiculite, leaching out as aqueous CaCO3 which is actually basic because of free OH- ions from the reaction: CaCO3 + H2O ---------------> Ca++ + CO3-- CO3-- + H20 ----------------> HCO3- + OH- If the Ping roots are in the vicinity of the CaCO3, then they may be able to directly absorb OH- ions BEFORE it gets a chance to be neutralized by the acidic peat moss. So, it may be that OH- ions is the mystery ingredient or active ingredient behind the pinch of CaCO3 recipe. Which hypo is more likely to be correct? I tend to think its B. Ca++ salts in the growing medium, tend to be water insoluble retarding or minimizing absorption which, if my knowlege of freshman biology serves correctly, is accomplished via a thin film of water on the root surface. Also, the CaCO3 (or Ca(OH)2) needs to be indroduced regularily, as by fornightly waterings or frequent repottings with fresh CaCO3 impregnated mixes. This would lend support for Hypo B as OH- ions cannot be expected to have an indefinite life- time in a predominantly acidic medium. My third best guess would be equivalent to Barry's #4 possibility. >On a similar subject, do crosses with bicalcarata inherit the fangs? Yep, there's at least one cross - made by Cliff Dodd and recorded as a cultivar in CPN - with N. X dyeriana, which supports the fangs. I believe that he named it after his wife, Nina. I have a bical. X gracilis cross but I'm told that it does not have fangs (mine has yet to pitcher). Rob (M) ################### From: mjc Date: Thu, 14 Nov 91 17:42:16 MST Subject: stuff Hey Barry, here are the things on your grab bag list which interest me: N. alata, N. anamensis, N..., oh what the hell, any that didn't come from me! (uh, aside from the williamsii). The calcium question: first off, calcium is a plant macronutrient. It can be expected to be benificial to all plants. Different plants will differ in their requirements and tolerance of different Ca++ levels. Gypsum (CaSO4) is much used to replace problematic Na+ ions in soil, via the phenomenon Mr. Maharaj has described. I can't guess how this might translate to a peat medium, but it works for farmers with salty dirt (why do you think they go around tasting the dirt, just a macho pullover?) :-) I would like to hear about the natural habitat of Mexican Pings. I bet that if they grow in limey(sp?) areas you won't find sphagnum growing there. How about U.S. marl bogs?? I have heard that P. gypsicola grows on limey sites, but I have also heard that many Mex. Pings grow as epiphytes on mossy logs and even on tree trunks. Are these sites alkaline? I would guess not. Why not run an experiment: grow two sets of pings in pure perlite, water one set with distilled H20 (tends to be slightly acid), water the other with alkaline water. Unfortunately, alkaline tap water (like we have in AZ) may not be the best source of alkaline H20, as our water has pleanty of other stuff in it besides excess OH- ions! Still, it would be a great experiment to try, just to see if tap water could be used out here. I am not yet convinced that all Mex. pings like it alky, and I have too few of 'em to risk it myself! MJC ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 13:02:43 +1100 Subject: Re: CaCO3 problem >... Why not run an experiment: grow two sets of pings in pure perlite, >water one set with distilled H20 (tends to be slightly acid), water the >other with alkaline water. Unfortunately, alkaline tap water (like we >have in AZ) may not be the best source of alkaline H20, as our water >has pleanty of other stuff in it besides excess OH- ions! Still, it >would be a great experiment to try, just to see if tap water could be >used out here. I am not yet convinced that all Mex. pings like it >alky, and I have too few of 'em to risk it myself! MJC What are the properties of Vermiculite? I know that it is spongy and formed from the heat treatment of mica (?), but what about free ions, pH, etc. If my memory's correct, I seem to remember that mica-like minerals can ion exchange or something. Maybe it's not Ca 2+ at all, but something else it replaces in the vermic. Mike's experiment idea is a good one, but I don't have enough plants either, let alone any spare ones. You could also explore pH effects using OH- and H+, as well as different substrates - how about something more inert like agar or polystyrene foam beads/etc. to cut down the number of variables a bit? ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 00:14:11 MST XSubject: Re: CaCO3 problem Don, your questions about trichocarpa and superba are the very things that irritate me about Nepenthes so much---you never really know what you have. I call X trichocarpa a hybrid because that what Rob M called it when he sent me some. My verifying source for this is Jan Schlauer's new CP list. He says that both trichocarpa and trichocarpa var. erythrostricta were published as hybrid gracilisXampullaria, first published in MIQ.,FL.IND.BATAN 1:1072, 1855. Whatever that means. Take it or leave it. As for your qualifiers regarding the X `superba', this is even worse. OK, the breakdown on this plant is....there are plants called N. maxima, N. maxima-superba, and N. curtisii. All these plants are actually N. maxima. One would think, then, that the N. curtisii cv. superba mentioned in Veitch's article is then N. maxima. But then there's also N. X superba and N. X superba-mixta. I hate this stuff. Bottom line is it's a nice plant. These damn Nepenthes have been hybridized for 100 years, and the state of confusion is atrocious. >There is a close-out sale at a local garden supply center. I get get >pH soil meters for $7.50. These were marked down from around $18. I can >also get a nutrient meter for $6.50. I was going to get one of those meters too, with the long metal probes you poke in the ground. I was told by some people at the Agricultual department, and the guy I get my Sphagnum bales from, that these things only measure the electrical conductivity of soil, I guess something to do with these weird ions Rob and Mike are on about. It was suggested to me that while they work fine for normal (garden variety!) soils, the conversion of conductivity to pH may not be good for our weird potting mixes. I ended up going to a science supply store and buying a couple of types of indicator paper, pHydrion its called I think. This has the advantage of being easily tucked in the backpack for trips out in the field (OR OVER TO GRANT HALLCHURCHS PLACE, NUDGE NUDGE ROB!) >What's the X hookerae like? Is this the micro-hookeriana? In my eyes it just another sort of eh Nepenthes hybrid. Mine is too light starved to pitcher well. I looked up it's geneology and it wasn't something that sounded interesting. >I think the large leaved utric may have bitten the big one, but I'm Sorry Rob. I think this may have been my fault. I recall accidentally leaving the baggie open overnight. Tell me if it doesn't come through. >you are looking to get rid of. I can't believe you >don't like these plants. By small I mean short Scott, my frustration about them is described above with the superba/trichocarpa stuff. Also, and this is a major factor, a lot of these plants look alike to me. They're mostly (ampullariaXrafflesiana)X(gracilisXmirabilis) or (ampXraff)X (gracXraff) or (ampXthorellii)X(gracXmirabilis) and so on and so on. I'm just picking out the ones I want to grow, since I don't have room for them all. While we're talking Sarrs, I just noticed that while all my Sarrs are dying back rapidly for the winter (except rubra rubra which always just sits there), my minor `Okee Giant' is finally reaching its peak! Funny. This is crazy---I have a D. anglica `Yukon Giant' from Rob M. This thing has just been out of the refridgerator for 6 weeks, maybe 8, and it's thinking about going back into a hibernaculum. Sheesh. BAMR ################### From: MAHARAJ@MCMASTER.BITNET Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 00:14:11 MST Subject: D. anglica dormancy >This is crazy---I have a D. anglica `Yukon Giant' from Rob M. This thing >has just been out of the refridgerator for 6 weeks, maybe 8, and it's >thinking about going back into a hibernaculum. Sheesh. >BAMR That's adaptation to the harsh cold North for yah. Randy Lamb (the guy I got these plants from) mentioned that up in the Yukon in summer, the growing season lasts for only about 2 months at best, but with longer daylight hours. By the middle of August, there's already frost at nights. So the native flora have to grow, flower and seed in a hurry. This a good example of the necessity of appending the geographical location after the name of the species, eg., D. anglica (Yukon, Canada). I have a geographical form from B.C., Canada which has a 5 months or so growing period before hibernaculum forma- tion. This growth habit is genetically encoded in the plant and should be uniquely designated as such in the plant name (and not just as "D. anglica"). By the way Barry, that plant is D. anglica (Yukon, Canada), not "Yukon Giant": I don't think that its a large plant from a particular Yukon population. In fact, it is the smallest anglica form in my collection of 3 different geographical genotypes. You must be confusing it with another plant I sent you, D. anglica "Northern Giant", which can grow to be over 4 inches (10 cm) high! Rob (M.) ################### From: ATLAS@JHUVMS.BITNET Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 00:14:11 MST Subject: Re: D. anglica dormancy I'm concerned about my D capillaris. They (all three of them) seem to be wilting away, even though their treatment hasn't changed. They ARE over one year old, and I've heard they are a short-lived species...maybe they are dying of old age. I've had very good germination from the following seed bank species: D. Aliciae and D. Binata NZ. Still no luck with D Stolonifera compacta, and limited success with all those Nepenthes seed. doug ################### From: mjc Date: Sun, 17 Nov 91 09:48:01 MST Subject: pings & things Hmm, I haven't heard much on tropical ping habitat since I last posted. I also note that the latest Slack-book doesn't even call them Mexican pings, instead he refers to them as "Central American and Carribean" pings ( or something to that order). I am getting really curiuos now about US marl bogs. Barry, does that bog book of yours mention these? Barry, do you have any D. anglica from me? Mine rarely go dormant. I got em from the seed bank. I'd be interested in the S. rubra Jonesii. That would complete my rubra series (collect 'em all!) I have seen N. lowii. Perhaps I shouldn't be letting the word out... but Gordon has seedlings, and those are what I saw. MJC ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 91 22:21:07 +1100 Subject: Re: D. anglica dormancy Our Pinguicula vulgaris (or is it an alpina?) also had a confused growth cycle this year. We potted up the hibernaculum, which spends the winter in a plastic film container in the fridge, in early spring. After growing a few leaves it decided to go back into dormancy, so we waited a bit and dug it up and popped it back in the fridge. A month or so later, I checked up to see if it was OK only to discover that it had changed its mind and started growing - in a air- and light-tight container at less than 4 degrees C! Its now back in the greenhouse again and after suffering from a bit of paleness and a dead leaf or two, it seems to be growing OK. I mentioned a while ago that Utricularia dichotoma seems to respond very well to cold treatment to induce flowering. At present, only one of the two forms in the greenhouse has flower stalks (two), whereas those in the mini peat-bog have dozens (both forms). I think I'll put the potted plants out next winter to see if it really works... Barry - planted your D. intermedia seeds today. No sign of life yet - sure they're not duds? ;-) Also potted up the 8 new Utrics. and the Drosophyllum seeds (we're trying the "Slack-pot" method). The U. graminifolium accidently lost its biggest flower stalk (about 7 flower buds) :-( Apart from being a bit squashed, the plants seem to be in reasonable condition. Has anyone heard of a U. longifolia "miniature form"? (I thought that it might have been U. calcifida mislabelled, but Fred offered us some of this too... Maybe its U. alpina :-) ) >>seem to be in reasonable condition. Has anyone heard of a U. >>longifolia "miniature form"? (I thought that it might have been U. >>calcifida mislabelled but Fred offered us some of this too... Maybe >>its U. alpina :-) ) > > >Yeah, I've got something from Christoph Belanger he calls something >like that. I've no idea what it is yet. And since it probably will >never flower I doubt I ever will. He *says* it has blue flowers which >puts it on a very short list, excluding calycifida and alpina. The blue flowered one could be var. forgetiana (I forget the correct spelling, but it *really* is something like forgetiana!), which is mentioned in Slack's second book. It also says the longifolia is a variable species. >ARRGH! Red mites remain on the U. longifolia in spite of manual and >chemical attacks! I've now thrown the entire plant away except for a >tiny bit which was underwater. Time to start all over. Well, our (normal?) longifolia has had trouble with large purple/red blotches on the leaves, which I discovered had fungi/mould on them. I've sprayed it with benlate (a rather old mix, but anyway...) and hopefully this will fix it. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 91 20:34:51 MST XSubject: Re: D. anglica dormancy >Dare I ask: just how big is your Okee Giant? Just about as big as D'Amatos, it sounds like. Funny thing is, while they are about 50---100% taller, the width is still the same. They are very stilt-like in appearance. Fortunately they are of good substance and don't topple over like S. alata or flava pitchers sometimes do. >(I'm glad no one here would take these comments out of context). Oh gosh, I'm sure no one on this list ever would! >I'm in need of some live spahgnum moss. I've noticed Don't worry about it. Use dead stuff. The only stuff I'm sure to use live moss on is some Utricularia, a couple of Pings, and leaf cuttings. I do like to wrap a couple of strands around Nepenthes cuttings too. >I'm concerned about my D capillaris. They (all three of them) seem to be >wilting away, even though their treatment hasn't changed. They ARE over one Temperature hasn't increased or decreased? Have they just finished a bout of flowering? >Aliciae and D. Binata NZ. Still no luck with D Stolonifera compacta, and >limited success with all those Nepenthes seed. Yeah Doug, I've had limited success with the Nepenthes seed, since I'm sure that 0 = limited. Earl, the tags on the Nepenthes I sent you should read... 1. N. X Hookeriana 2. N. hybrid (originally from Gordon) Of course, who knows if #1 is correctly ID'd, and the ID of #2 could be anything >Only two of them, N. Hybrid Gordon and Maxima Thorelli have lots >of pitchers. Most of the pitchers on the other plants turn brown >and don't turn into pitchers. I fertilize them with Miracle Grow, >1/4 teaspoon /gal about once a month...I know I should do it more >often, right? I don't know---ask Nepenthes Gods like Mike. I just follow his lead and keep mine at about 100% humidity and they pitcher great. I never fertilize and suggest you think about not fertilizing the ones that aren't pitchering. They certainly aren't happy about something. >something to that order). I am getting really curiuos now about US marl >bogs. Barry, does that bog book of yours mention these? Mike, this weekend Bridgett was in town and we had other more important matters to attend to. Now she's back north I'll pursue some more monkish activities. >Barry, do you have any D. anglica from me? Mine rarely go dormant. I >got em from the seed bank. I've got three anglica: from you, Rob's `Yukon,' and some from Strathcona British Columbia which sound a lot like Rob's Fort Nelson giants. They all go dormant in the fall, but note I have them in a greenhouse subject to all sorts of diurnal temp/lighting variations. Yours are in a terrarium. >I have seen N. lowii. Perhaps I shouldn't be letting the word out... but >Gordon has seedlings, and those are what I saw. Tell you what, Mike...this thursday night we meet at the corner. You keep an eye on the bedroom window, I'll sneak rond back. I take out any guards and.... >seem to be in reasonable condition. Has anyone heard of a U. longifolia >"miniature form"? (I thought that it might have been U. calcifida >mislabelled, >but Fred offered us some of this too... Maybe its U. alpina :-) ) Yeah, I've got something from Christoph Belanger he calls something like that. I've no idea what it is yet. And since it probably will never flower I doubt I ever will. He *says* it has blue flowers which puts it on a very short list, excluding calycifida and alpina. ARRGH! Red mites remain on the U. longifolia in spite of manual and chemical attacks! I've now thrown the entire plant away except for a tiny bit which was underwater. Time to start all over. BAMR ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 17:29:22 MST XSubject: Re: D. anglica dormancy >Well, our (normal?) longifolia has had trouble with large purple/red >blotches on the leaves, which I discovered had fungi/mould on them. >I've sprayed it with benlate (a rather old mix, but anyway...) and >hopefully this will fix it. With the wife back at school I've buried myself in pseudo-academic pursuits (in addition to the academic ones). I've been carefully reviewing old CPNs and other CP literature to see what has been said about various chemicals (pesticides and fertilizers) and how they've affected CPs. Well, I was looking through an absolutely ancient and mouldy CPN when who's name did I see? A certain Rob Allen. Rob, I guess it didn't click with me you were growing CPs for so long. I think then, you and Don B are the senior members on this list. BAMR ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 16:35:31 PST XSubject: Re: D. anglica dormancy >>With the wife back at school I've buried myself in pseudo-academic >>pursuits (in addition to the academic ones). I've been carefully reviewing >>old CPNs and other CP literature to see what has been said about various >>chemicals (pesticides and fertilizers) and how they've affected CPs. >>Well, I was looking through an absolutely ancient and mouldy CPN when >>who's name did I see? A certain Rob Allen. Rob, I guess it didn't click >>with me you were growing CPs for so long. I think then, you and Don B are >>the senior members on this list. :-) Only in terms of when we started perhaps. I was young, impulsive, and overly prolific at the time :-). I was surprised to see some of the stuff I submitted when I re-read the back issues :-), particulary the plant src listing. Ahhh, the prices back then too :-). I went to college in 1979 and dropped out of the hobby in 1980 or so. However during the 2-3 years I grew I amassed quite an enviable collection. I *still* haven't made it back up to UC Santa Cruz to see what still survives of my old collection. BTW, I no longer highly recommend growing Darlingtonia in a mix of pea gravel and peat or life spaghnum. I just switched my plant to live moss; we'll see how it does. Robert ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 17:48:46 MST XSubject: Re: D. anglica dormancy Oh, I almost forgot.... Yesterday I was looking through some stuff and I found references to some very strange hybrids. Has anyone ever seen in cultivation D. capensis X spatulata or D. capensis X aliciae? There is a photo in an old CPN. I think I may try to make a couple of these crosses in the spring. Also, I know there are a couple of hybrids involving the N. american Drosera, like rotundifolia X intermedia, filiformis X intermedia, and so on, but there was a CPN article naming a LARGE number of other hybrids, using a sort of hokey but effective naming scheme. X linpil = linearis X capillaris X angfil = anglica X filiformis and so on. Do these mystery plants really exist? Christoph Belanger claims Jim Bokowski made intermedia X brevifolia. Hmph! I wonder about P. pumila typica X pumila bushwellii? Don, the plant is listed in Jan Schlauer's CP list as P. rotundiflora, strangely enough. Incidentally, Jan is the same one who made the old CPN plant list. Mike sent me an article about a pathetic side to the US's WAR ON DRUGS. This is the one we've probably all heard of---the D.E.A. is trying to get the names of everyone who has bought high-lumen light fixtures. Could be growing something bad! This effort is called, get this, OPERATION GREEN MERCHANT. Ooh! Makes me feel like John Wayne! (The preceding has been an editorial comment) >If it's any consolation, none of the D. intermeda seeds Barry sent us have >germinated yet either! Maybe its just a slow year for sundews... And you probably won't see anything for a couple of months from the D. intermedia. Those fall-ripening climactic plants like a stratification period of a couple of months. Oh, I almost forgot. In a recent letter Don Schnell said he thinks S. minor "Okee" giant is indeed a genetically fixed plant but merits no status beyond mere variety. He also agreed with my observations that this plant often looks stretched out and lanky. Lastly on Sarrs, he said a *secret* of his is to avoid root disturbance as much as possible. He used to repot every year or two, but has since found that leaving them alone for longer than this results in better, more natural and less shocked, growth. Since Don S. hadn't touched on my Sarracenia questions in a previous letter, in this one I referred to him as, ``Oh Great Sarracenia Guru'' and it seemed to work! Heh heh. BAMR ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 08:49:44 PST XSubject: Re: D. anglica dormancy >>Just about as big as D'Amatos, it sounds like. Funny thing is, while they >>are about 50---100% taller, the width is still the same. They are very >>stilt-like in appearance. Fortunately they are of good substance and don't >>topple over like S. alata or flava pitchers sometimes do. As I recall Peters was wider (oh great....), but it's been a while since I saw it. I think his were about an 1 1/2" wide at the top. >>I don't know---ask Nepenthes Gods like Mike. I just follow his lead >>and keep mine at about 100% humidity and they pitcher great. I never >>fertilize and suggest you think about not fertilizing the ones that >>aren't pitchering. They certainly aren't happy about something. Peter D'Amato reportedly uses a bromeliad fertilizer called "Epiphytes Delight". About once a month, I can't recall if he sprayed or watered with it, but I think the latter. The stuff comes in solid powder form in small bags at local nurseries. >> >> >>ARRGH! Red mites remain on the U. longifolia in spite of manual and >>chemical attacks! I've now thrown the entire plant away except for a >>tiny bit which was underwater. Time to start all over. With utrics can you not use ladybugs to take out pests? r. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 17:55:39 MST XSubject: Re: D. anglica dormancy >I do remember getting one of these crosses from WIP years >ago. I can't quite recall the name, but the cross was between >a filiformis and (I think) intermedia. This produced something This is D. X hybrida, a plant I got from Rob M, and my favourite hybrid Drosera. Cute little guys. There are several common hybrids out there, like anglica X spatulata, rotundiflora X intermedia, but I've never seen anyone growing the linearis hybrids listed. >From the (small amount of) documentation with the list, it certainly sounds like the hybridizer (Nagamoto himself) was reporting on existing plants. I wonder if he had to use colchicine (sp?) to mess with chromosomes. >Peter D'Amato reportedly uses a bromeliad fertilizer called >"Epiphytes Delight". About once a month, I can't recall if I mentioned I was looking through CPNs about pesticide/fertilizer use and CPs? It seems like people hurl just about anything and everything (except dead sows and horses) at Nepenthes. Details later. >With utrics can you not use ladybugs to take out pests? No, for two reasons...1)I don't think ladybugs are any good on mites. As biological controls go, ladybugs are good P.R. but not always very effective. There are strains of predatory mites that are more effective on the pest-mites. 2)Sure, I could try lady bugs but what's to keep them from getting eaten by the Drosera next door. A few summers ago I tried ladybugs for the aphids on Bridgett's Peppers in the Greenhouse. I discovered my plants eat ladybugs faster than ladybugs eat pests. It was great, though, watching Bridgett open these bags and have 1000+ ladybugs crawl up her arms. Sort of nightmarish. BAMR ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 17:00:28 PST XSubject: Re: D. anglica dormancy >>This is D. X hybrida, a plant I got from Rob M, and my favourite >>hybrid Drosera. Cute little guys. There are several common hybrids I don't know why but x hybrida is one of the more fun looking hybrids. It looks rather different from its' parents. >>>Peter D'Amato reportedly uses a bromeliad fertilizer called >>>"Epiphytes Delight". About once a month, I can't recall if >> >>I mentioned I was looking through CPNs about pesticide/fertilizer >>use and CPs? It seems like people hurl just about anything and >>everything (except dead sows and horses) at Nepenthes. Details later. Well, I bought some of the stuff but haven't used it yet. His plants did look good though. Of course you have to be careful. He was walking along, hitting all his hanging Nepenthes with a load of fertilized water from a extension hose, and he accidentally "hosed", if you'll pardon the pun, his D. binata multifida. It was not a happy camper, and rather interestingly, the tips of the leaves shrivled up and died, even though he immediately flushed the container. >>>With utrics can you not use ladybugs to take out pests? >> >>No, for two reasons...1)I don't think ladybugs are any good on mites. >>As biological controls go, ladybugs are good P.R. but not always >>very effective. There are strains of predatory mites that are more yeah, my girlfriend tried them on her umbrella plant, and it seemed that the aphids came back after getting eaten, but given the lady bug dosage I don't know where they came from. However it is viscerally satisfying to watch the lady bugs chow down on the aphids. r. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 91 13:33:37 MST XSubject: Re: D. anglica dormancy Some time ago we had been discussing how D. hamiltonii is an easy plant, even though it had a difficult reputation. Shortly after that thread ended, my hamiltonii's stopped growing and slowly died back! I checked for bugs, pests, but found nothing. Remembering my comments on how easy this plant grows, sheepishly and behind drawn curtains (with many an embarrassed glance over my shoulder) I took some root cuttings, as insurance. Two months (about) passed, and suddenly all 7 of the rosettes simultaneously burst back into growth. Some sort of dormancy had been induced, even though I can't imagine what cultural conditions may have changed... One other thought. I recently did some repotting and found several worms in the soil. Plain old worms. I don't like worms in my CP pots. They cycle the soil through their guts and degrade it too rapidly. I think about worms a lot. I guess its because being a scientist I have an annelidic mind. HAH HAH HHAAAHH HA HA! BAMR ################### From: stufff Date: Sat, 23 Nov 91 14:43:26 MST Subject: stufff Hmmmmm. A few weeks ago I repotted both my D. hamiltoniis into a single pot (consolidation for expected space cuts). Both plants shrivelled up by the time I saw them again. The roots still look good, so I un- consolidated a few roots into a new pot so I don't loose em. I think I may have kept em too wet after repotting, but I can't be sure. Barry, I got the cutting; N. anamensis no? Thanks. Is this name valid? it looks a lot like a pale N. khasiana. By the by, all my tuberous Drosera are doing great, D. stolonifera compacta seed is sprouting (about 2 month after planting), D. prostratoscaposa seedlings are gaining size, and D. ramellosa is sending off more shoots. D. peltata is flowering. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 14:58:32 PST Subject: Re: binata "giant" >>Our plant started off well this season, but now has gone back to it's >>old routine of sending up good stalks, but blacking off the >>"leaf-buds". I think we'll try repotting it into a normal large pot >>(it's currently in a hanging plastic pot) and maybe use a peat-sand >>mix (it's in sphag.). This is the same thing I've seen happen to binata multifida when it's mistakenly root fertilized. Maybe you have bad water, or a previously defective plant? r. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 18:51:59 MST XSubject: Re: binata "giant" >Barry, I got the cutting; N. anamensis no? Thanks. Is this name valid? >it looks a lot like a pale N. khasiana. Yep, anamensis. This is a valid species name, but as to whether or not the label is correct, quien sabe? That's what Senor Maharajh sent it to me labelled as. It grows well---that's not the first cutting I've taken from the mother plant. >I found my poor S. psittacina infested w/ scale this weekend >so I trimmed off all the infested leaves (i.e. all the leaves). >What else should I do? The plant is dormant (to say the least). Diazinon diazinon diazinon. I've tried it on every species of Sarr without any problems. I used to try various nonchemical approaches with this pest, but none are truly satisfactory. Put normal dilution Diazinon on the plant, drench it! When I did it it was in the winter, the plants were resting, I kept them out of sun for a few days, and didn't let too much drain into the soil (while spraying I kept the pots sideways). For non-chemical means, to get rid of scale you have to go nonlinear. Once, out of perversity, I found if I cut ALL the leaves AND roots off a rhizome, brushed it thoroughly with a toothbrush, and submerged it in living Sphagnum (above the water line), the scale was killed. Of course, I only had a 25% survival rate (even that is surprising!) and the plants took 2.5 years to really recover. Anticipate possible Sphagnum damage with Diazinon. Malathion wettable powder (WP, 25%) might be better if you can get it. I just found some scale on my B. gigantea but it's not bad enough for me to use chemicals yet. And I don't know what B. gigantea would do with chemicals. Speaking of B. gigantea, I read that some time ago Allen Lowrie found a white flowered form. I'll have to ask him about this next time I write. Said it was growing well. I think Slack recommends submerging S. psittacenia thru the resting period. This is a pretty good way of drowning scale. Wiggle the leaves around underwater so that most of the air comes out. >are up to no good down there but I havn't been able to pin down any cases of >real worm damage. > Yeah, but you'd probably have to change the water a lot to keep it from getting ycchhy. we'll try repotting it into a normal large pot (it's currently in a hanging Don't forget it's natural for the D. binata types to go dormant for a few weeks or months in the winter. I recently sent off a letter of inquiry to the "Hobby Greenhouse Association," which has a quarterly magazine devoted to building, equipping, and operating small hobby greenhouses. Since it is so general in scope, there are articles on cactus culture, African violets, orchids, Bonsai, etc. but it looks like a good resource for the small greenhouse grower. Probably useful even if you just had a little window greenhouse or temporary poly-film structure. 10$ US, 14$ foreign and I think probably worth it. BAMR P.S. For Rob M. and any other growers who have these plants, I think it's interesting that my D. intermedia `Cuba' is forming hibernacula. Being from a possibly tropical location this is not a given. Are there cold places in Cuba? Also, my strange capillaris `Long Leaf' clones (which look a lot like a rotundifolia or intermedia hybrid) are not making them. This last pair of plants is really a strange one. They look a lot like intermedia. I refer to the `Long Leaf' as a pair of plants since one is from Paul McMillan and one is from Rob M. Now I'll have to watch my clones of D. intermedia `tropical' carefully. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 91 14:18:38 PST Subject: Re: Nepen. root cuttings? Nepenthes "roots" are stringy, black things, and threadlike. Anything else is the stem. It's not uncommon for a, uh, help me someone, dormant leaf node to sprout forth with a new stem, giving the plant a bushy appearance. Whether you can seperate these and root them as standard stem cuttings is the real question here. Barry: it looks like the U. calcifida Spotted Flower has indeed bitten the big one. I removed the pot from my terrarium today and found nothing left alive in there. Don't worry about sending another one this year, it's getting a bit late in the season to do planting or mailing. Robert ################### From: MAHARAJ@MCMASTER.BITNET Date: Tue, 26 Nov 91 14:18:38 PST Subject: news flash Just received a letter from Paul Kane of Melbourne which stated the following apparent official names for: D. stolonifera ssp. monticola (= "Alpine Form") D. browniana (= D. sp. "Forrestiana") D. grieviii (=D. sp. "Baanga Hill") D. seargentii (=D. sp. "Esperance") D. stellaflora (= D. enodes (Jindong)) Barry: the D. intermedia (Cuba) is apparently from Cuba. My seed was obtained from Gert (of Holland) who received his stock (directly?) from Harald Weiner of Germany (now in Kenya). Harald probably collected seed or plants from its native Cuba, as Kondo's book has several pictures of Cuban Drosera and Pings. in habitus and cites photographic credit to Harald. The N. anamensis is probably the true species as my plant showed identical pitcher characteristic with that from a German source. My plant was originally obtained indirectly from Orgel Bramblet of Miami. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 15:22:51 PST Subject: Xmas comes early :-). I have an old "Crystal Lite Greenhouse" as sold by Peter Pauls, which I bought in the late '70's. Or rather, my Mom has it. It's somewhat the worse for wear from the intervening years, but I was going to clean it up and use it for an office terrarium, to keep me happy at work. Today my Mom surprised me by presenting me with a brand NEW model of the same thing. It seems she had found an Orchard Supply Hardware store going out of business which had one and she got it "for a good price." I don't know how much, but considering the things now cost a hundred bucks or more (with 2 tube flourescent fixture), I figure she probably did get a good price if she got any discount at all. The problem with this greenhouse, as delivered it's designed for Zinias, etc., is that it uses two little skinny tubes in the fixture, and doesn't give much light. I think I'll either build a 4 tube, 24" fixture and use it for light, or get my other old skinny 2 tube fixture and use them both together. It should be interesting, and having a CP collection at work is sure to garner comment. Well, hasta la veesta baybeees, talk to you after T-day, Robert ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 17:09:59 MST XSubject: Re: Xmas comes early :-). Aaaaaahhh!!! I'm in TROUBLE!!! I just got a call from my wife! Ayyyy!!!! She got into town 2.5 hours early and is at the apartment! AAAAAhhh!! As soon as she opens the fridge... (you see, living the bachelor lifestyle while she's at school, I've taken to storing some wintering plants in the fridge. While she's used to my little bagged up 2" pots with hibernacula...what I have in there now...maybe she won't notice the 7 or eight 6--8" peat and algae stained pots of Sarrs and Drosera behind the milk. AHHHHH! Well guys, I gotta go and enjoy the holiday. See you (electronically) later. Wish me luck on extricating myself from a little trouble. :) Hey Doug, I'm gonna go eat me some FLESH! It's lonely at the top of the food chain. Actually we're heading down to Mexico looking for some seafood. Hasta leucophylla! BAMR ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 16:11:10 PST XSubject: Re: Xmas comes early :-). >>(you see, living the bachelor lifestyle while she's at school, I've >>taken to storing some wintering plants in the fridge. While she's >>used to my little bagged up 2" pots with hibernacula...what I have in >>there now...maybe she won't notice the 7 or eight 6--8" peat and algae >>stained pots of Sarrs and Drosera behind the milk. AHHHHH! Fortunately *I* have the solution. Just mail those nasty, offending plants out here to wintery California, and rid yourself of any spousal problems. Of COURSE, I'll be happy to send them back whenever you say so. Suuuuuuure... >> >>Hey Doug, I'm gonna go eat me some FLESH! It's lonely at the top of the >>food chain It's a dirty job, but SOMEone has to do it :-). Besides, I hear that the common turkey is the only animal stupider than human kind, so how bad can it be to eat one? >> >>Hasta leucophylla! That's up there with "Sarracenially yours,".... Robert. ################### From: dngess01 (Don) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 91 23:58:22 -0500 Subject: Looking for pot source....:-) > many of my plants are small (plus for growing new plants). Locally > all I can find are 4" round pots. Does anyone have a mail order > source? I'm also looking for plastic stick-in plant labels, as I've > run low and can't find any locally. Orchids by Hausermann has square pots 2 1/2", 3", and 4" for $.10, $.20, $.30 respectively. Catalog is free. Write to: Orchids by Hausermann, Inc. 2N 134 Addison Rd. Villa Park, IL 60181-1191 20 pots of one size gets 10% discount. They also have labels. A note on do-it-yourself supplies: For labels, I use plastic milk cartons, cut into flat strips. You can write on them with permanent marker. For containers, I've seen catalogs advertising "poly-bags". These look like just plastic bags with small holes near the bottom. You could use baggies just as well. Since baggies aren't stiff, you'll cause root damage and upset the plant if you frequently shift your plants around. Baggies would be ok if you have them all supported inside a tray. I find baggies are not water tight, so punching holes in the sides isn't really needed. Also, bottoms of milk cartons make good planters too. I've been saving these this winter and I'll stick a Utric in each one and try growing them outdoors this spring. N. anamensis: Gordon sent me one several months ago. Mine is still very small. It has about 1.5" pitchers with 3" leaves. The pitchers on my plant are green, with coppery tint, very little to no "fringe" on ribs. When lid opens, the lid remains very close to the peristome. N. khasiana "tubers": I bought an N. khasiana a long time ago from a mail-order nursery in Florida. They shipped a woody thing about the size of a small sweet potato, and it had a short shoot coming out of it. It may have been collected from the wild, as this was a long time ago, before CITES. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 91 09:03:15 MST XSubject: Re: Looking for pot source....:-) >Just received a letter from Paul Kane of Melbourne which stated the >following apparent official names for: D. stolonifera ssp. monticola >(= "Alpine Form") etc..... This is interesting information. Thanks for posting it. On other taxanomical details, I recently got a letter from Allen Lowrie in which he included a copy of a paper of his describing 7 new Stylidium species, and his next Stylidium article will describe about 19 more! Just churning them out. I hope his science is good. He says Vol III of the CP books will be out in 1992, the Australian depression slowing things down a bit. I chided him about listing some seeds in his catalogue as Polypompholyx, and he told me (joking?) he thinks Taylor subsumed that genus into Utricularia just to make the title of his monograph look nicer! Ah well. :) He labelled a seed packet he sent to me, ``Polyf***ingpompholyx westonii'' (his asterisks). Heh heh heh. >Orchids by Hausermann has square pots 2 1/2", 3", and 4" for $.10, >$.20, $.30 respectively. Catalog is free. Write to: When I look for pots I won't buy them unless they are white (darker ones heat up too rapidly here) and also unless they are sturdy. I can never be sure about sturdiness when ordering through the mail. I don't want to get cheap plastic pots like you get when you buy a six-pack of plants. Another growing tip: After a lot of experimentation, I've found the best greenhouse pens are the black ``Sharpie'' ones. They never fade no matter how much sun they get. I know Mike likes the rough labels you can use pencils with, but they're a little to difficult to read for my tastes. >If no Thanksgiving, do Aussies at least have Canberra sauce? Oh please... >One of my fluoresent light fixtures is doing funny things. It has a >tendency to turn itself off for periods of about a half hour, then come >on again. I Fluorescents can be pretty cranky. They won't even come on if it's too cold (or was it too hot?). Check the bulbs----they may need replacing. Look for a lot of sooty looking build-up near the ends, on the inside of the bulbs. BAMR ################### From: ATLAS@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu Date: Mon, 2 Dec 91 09:03:15 MST Subject: seedlings Well, I'm afraid those two suspected D Auriculata seedlings aren't...their first set of non-cotyledon leaves are out, and they look pretty much like the cotyledons, definitely not drosera-like. Comments, messers Taylor?? On a happier note, I DO have mild germination from N. Fusca, Rafflesiana, and Khasiana (all from the seed bank). Some are in peat, some in milled sphag, so I'm carefully watching to see if one medium is better than the other. Speaking of the seed bank, anyone received an update recently?? I'm itching to sow some sarr seed, and I think the best time is right around now. I hope all you all (usa'ers, at least) had a good dead bird day. I was unfortunate enough to eat with a bunch of carnivores, and had to fill up on potatoes and cranberry sauce. Now that's a hearty meal!! Barry, how did your wife take to the pots in the fridge?? Mine doesn't seem to mind them much. BTW, the N. x Hookeria you sent is perking up. How long d'ya think it'll take to see some action on the root cuttings you sent? doug ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 91 10:22:41 PST Subject: Re: seedlings >>Well, I'm afraid those two suspected D Auriculata seedlings aren't...their >>first set of non-cotyledon leaves are out, and they look pretty much like >>the cotyledons, definitely not drosera-like. Comments, messers Taylor?? Heh heh, I'm not getting any germination yet either, so my insecurity no longer feels threatened by your apparent success :-). On a similar note, I must be becoming a real CPer: I'm noticing small drosera weeds cropping up in various non-drosera pots. I wonder what they'll be?! Ah, the thrill of mystery. BTW, how long from germination does it usually take for Nepenthes to reach a shippable size? I'm going to have a number of extra nepenthes, not to mention D. indica, when and if my seedlings survive and grow up, and I'm wondering how long it will take. >> >>I hope all you all (usa'ers, at least) had a good dead bird day. I was >>unfortunate enough to eat with a bunch of carnivores, and had to fill up >>on potatoes and cranberry sauce. Now that's a hearty meal!! Well, we didn't have cranberry sauce so you're ahead of me :-). Didn't they have peas? >> >>Barry, how did your wife take to the pots in the fridge?? Mine doesn't >>seem to mind them much. BTW, the N. x Hookeria you sent is perking up. Ditto on the x hookeriana (?) rooted cutting I have. If I'm lucking I'll have my in-office greenhouse working in 2-3 weeks. I have to construct a lighting fixture for it, which is what will take the time. I think I'll use 2' flourescent fixtures in addition to the gimpy 18" skinny gro-lux fixture which comes with the crystal lite greenhouse, and fabricating a board and bolting 2' fixtures to it will take some effort with the handtools I have, plus living in an apt. where I have no working space. It's getting cold out here in CA: it may actually hit freezing temps sometime soon :-). Now if we could just get some rain. BTW, current theory seems to be that drought is a natural state for CA. My theory is that there are just too many people here for the water supplies available. Which leads to the local bumper stickers saying "Welcome to California: Now go home!" r. ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 09:21:32 +1100 Subject: Re: auriculata seedlings >>Well, I'm afraid those two suspected D Auriculata seedlings aren't...their >>first set of non-cotyledon leaves are out, and they look pretty much like >>the cotyledons, definitely not drosera-like. Comments, messers Taylor?? > > Heh heh, I'm not getting any germination yet either, so my > insecurity no longer feels threatened by your apparent success :-). If it's any consolation, none of the D. intermeda seeds Barry sent us have germinated yet either! Maybe its just a slow year for sundews... >It's getting cold out here in CA: it may actually hit freezing >temps sometime soon :-). Now if we could just get some rain. >BTW, current theory seems to be that drought is a natural state >for CA. My theory is that there are just too many people here for >the water supplies available. Which leads to the local bumper >stickers saying "Welcome to California: Now go home!" Well, it looks like Australia is in for a bad drought this summer. Queensland and New South Wales have had drought conditions for some months and now the northern parts of Victoria are drying out too. I think its Australia's turn for El Nino. :-( Unfortunately, that means we're in for some bad bushfires too. ################### From: barry@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 91 17:28:21 MST XSubject: Re: auriculata seedlings >Barry, how did your wife take to the pots in the fridge?? Mine doesn't >seem to mind them much. BTW, the N. x Hookeria you sent is perking up. Very well, actually. I guess she's getting used to me after only 3.5 years of marriage. I got home and when the subject of dinner came up, she looked at me sort of edgewise and said, ``Well, we could always eat the Sarracenia `Robs Ontario' ''. >How long d'ya think it'll take to see some action on the root cuttings you >sent? As for the D. adelae root cuttings, with warmth you'll see something in just a few weeks. As for any U. pubescens, they may be coming up already! >Ditto on the x hookeriana (?) rooted cutting I have. If I'm Rob M had a good point recently when he wrote me supporting Mike's claim that the X hookeriana is correctly ID'd. He pointed out that the leaves of that hybrid are fuzzy, fringed with little hairs, just like ampullaria. Maybe it *is* rafflesianaXampullaria. BAMR ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 20:57:55 +1100 Subject: Re: Canberra sauce >If no Thanksgiving, do Aussies at least have Canberra sauce? Hmmm ... looks like a few turkeys got away ... ;-) Speaking of Canberra, I will most likely be moving up there with my work in January 1992. Will probably have to use alternative means of communication, although I might do part time study at the Australian National University to get Internet access again. Our Byblis is running at full flower again ... Has anyone experimented with different tuning forks to see which note is best? A recent trip to Langwarrin Flora & Fauna Reserve (on a "Challenge Bird Count" with friends) revealed the Drosera Binata colony to be growing well - no flowers as yet. A few Drosera auriculata are still around, but most have finished flowering and have turned black. The "Polyf***ingpomphlox tenella" colony had vanished without a trace, but a suspected Utricularia colony was actually in flower! Have not yet identified the species - U. laterifolia is supposed to be found in the area, but the flowers on this are quite different. They are a bit like a U. dichotoma flower, but with the spur curving forward so that the tip just protrudes underneath the apron. They were a light pink/purple colour, although at 7am it was a little difficult to judge (beginning of a "Challenge Bird Count" - 86 species in all, including two Peregrine Falcons). I have a photo of one of the flowers just in case they aren't there at our next visit... +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul Taylor [Falcon] Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | C/O s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au Melbourne, Australia. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 11:33:30 PST Subject: Question on making Nepenthes cuttings. I've been considering pruning my N. X. boissiense for a while, to gain space and encourage bushiness. My only doc on how to do this is a late '70's CPN which says to take the first cutting 3-4 leaf-nodes down from the meristem, to get a mature, non-"soft" part of the stem to root. Is this correct? Do you still cut half the leaf off when doing this initial cutting? BTW, how long does a cutting take to root? My khasiana #3 is still not showing any signs of growth, though it is still alive. I've not pulled the cutting out to look for roots since I don't want to disturb it. Robert ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 09:42:30 PST XSubject: Re: Question on making Nepenthes cuttings. >>>Ditto on the x hookeriana (?) rooted cutting I have. If I'm >> >>Rob M had a good point recently when he wrote me supporting Mike's >>claim that the X hookeriana is correctly ID'd. He pointed out that the >>leaves of that hybrid are fuzzy, fringed with little hairs, just like >>ampullaria. Maybe it *is* rafflesianaXampullaria. I don't know. The lower pitcher you sent me looked more like a khasiana type pitcher than an ampullaria. I thought hookeriana was supposed to have a symmetric pitcher, similar to ampullaria, with the spotted coloration and fringes of rafflesiana. God, I'm no taxonomist, but I'll bet Nepenthes drive them crazy since they seldom flower, and when they do flower the flowers all look the same. A REAL taxonomist would use photomicrographs of pollen to determine species, wouldn't they? :-) Eh barry, ye of heavenly type stuff, who surely has access to an SEM? >> >>>If it's any consolation, none of the D. intermeda seeds Barry sent us have >>>germinated yet either! Maybe its just a slow year for sundews... I think my D. intermedia I got from California Carnivores just died. it was a few inches tall and had gone dormant, but now the tip looks more brown than green. It will be sorely missed.... r. ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 20:57:55 +1100 Subject: Re: Canberra sauce A recent trip to Langwarrin Flora & Fauna Reserve (on a "Challenge Bird Count" with friends) revealed the Drosera Binata colony to be growing well - no flowers as yet. A few Drosera auriculata are still around, but most have finished flowering and have turned black. The "Polyf****ingpomphlox tenella" colony had vanished without a trace, but a suspected Utricularia colony was actually in flower! Have not yet identified the species - U. laterifolia is supposed to be found in the area, but the flowers on this are quite different. They are a bit like a U. dichotoma flower, but with the spur curving forward so that the tip just protrudes underneath the apron. They were a light pink/purple colour, although at 7am it was a little difficult to judge (beginning of a "Challenge Bird Count" - 86 species in all, including two Peregrine Falcons). I have a photo of one of the flowers just in case they aren't there at our next visit... ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 91 09:42:30 PST XSubject: Re: Question on making Nepenthes cuttings. >>>Ditto on the x hookeriana (?) rooted cutting I have. If I'm >> >>Rob M had a good point recently when he wrote me supporting Mike's >>claim that the X hookeriana is correctly ID'd. He pointed out that the >>leaves of that hybrid are fuzzy, fringed with little hairs, just like >>ampullaria. Maybe it *is* rafflesianaXampullaria. I don't know. The lower pitcher you sent me looked more like a khasiana type pitcher than an ampullaria. I thought hookeriana was supposed to have a symmetric pitcher, similar to ampullaria, with the spotted coloration and fringes of rafflesiana. God, I'm no taxonomist, but I'll bet Nepenthes drive them crazy since they seldom flower, and when they do flower the flowers all look the same. A REAL taxonomist would use photomicrographs of pollen to determine species, wouldn't they? :-) ################### From: dngess01 (Don) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 00:08:39 -0500 Subject: CP > > BTW, how long from germination does it usually take for Nepenthes > to reach a shippable size? I'm going to have a number of extra > nepenthes, not to mention D. indica, when and if my seedlings survive > and grow up, and I'm wondering how long it will take. D. indica is a fast grower. Mine flowered in about 4 months from germination. I prefer to propagate this species by seed. The plant grows long and leggy in no time. This species may be an annual in nature. I remember I tried once to repot them when the stems got too long. I just buried their stems so that just a little stuck out. This quickly killed them. I noticed that if the stem gets damaged, they will quickly generate a new crown from the stem just below the damaged part, so I guess you can try cutting them back this way. I got a ton of seed from those plants I grew this year, so the easiest way to deal with the old plants is to just toss them and sow seed. The Nepenthes (ventricosa x sp. (Talang)), my oldest plant is just finishing up its third true leaf after nearly 3 months. I think these will take at least three years before they produce mature pitchers. I have four seedlings of this hybrid now. Nep seedlings produce leaves with very short internodes for a long time, giving them a rosette appearance and making it hard to take cuttings. > > > I've been considering pruning my N. X. boissiense for a while, > to gain space and encourage bushiness. My only doc on how to do > this is a late '70's CPN which says to take the first cutting > 3-4 leaf-nodes down from the meristem, to get a mature, > non-"soft" part of the stem to root. Is this correct? Do you > still cut half the leaf off when doing this initial cutting? > > That is correct. If you want to make a terminal cutting, take off as much as you want, 3-4 leaves at a minimum. Don't cut the stem where it's woody and don't cut near the terminal end where the stem is too flimsy. An old CPN article gives a neat method that seems to work, where after you take the terminal cutting, you then wait for a new crown to break on the stem just below where you took the cutting. You can then take a one-node cutting, place it horizontally in the rooting medium with the new crown sticking up, and these root very quickly. > BTW, how long does a cutting take to root? My khasiana #3 is still > not showing any signs of growth, though it is still alive. I've > not pulled the cutting out to look for roots since I don't want > to disturb it. > I remember reading CPN articles that state something like Nepenthes take 4 weeks before they begin to root. This info is probably from the same people who think Nepenthes seeds germinate is 6-8 weeks. I would suggest keeping them in their baggies for a good 5 months. Don't disturb them except for watering. After that, if they seem to be growing, you can take the baggies off and try adapting them to the same conditions as your mature plants. > > > I don't know. The lower pitcher you sent me looked more like a > khasiana type pitcher than an ampullaria. I thought hookeriana > was supposed to have a symmetric pitcher, similar to ampullaria, > with the spotted coloration and fringes of rafflesiana. > > In the Sept-Dec CPN of last year, there was mention of a magazine you can buy for $3.50 that has 80 color pictures of different Nepenthes species and hybrids. This may be useful in identifying our plants. ################### From: barry%as.arizona.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 17:41:57 MST XSubject: Re: CP >My D. auriculata seeds haven't germinated yet also... >Has ANYONE'S D.auriculata seed germinated? I thought it was only supposed >Seed germination seems to be quite varialbe. I've not had any I agree with Mike. I stuck those seeds in a pot and put them by my many other seed pots. The trick with CPs and seed, I think, is to have at least 15 pots of different seeds sitting around at all times. I have probably about 50. This way, if each takes, oh, one year to germinate, on the average I have something new coming up each week! Relax...sit back...To quote one Kevin Costner film, ``If you plant them, they will come...'' >Our Byblis is running at full flower again ... Has anyone experimented with >different tuning forks to see which note is best? Any will do. Most are A and E note, but I've found that once you get the technique down a tuning fork isn't always necessary but it makes the job easier. You're just using it to agitate the anthers---it's not like there's any critical frequency harmonic involved. >BTW, the D. capensis seed I got from Barry long ago never did WOW! It didn't??? Oy! Those seeds must have been hit by cosmic rays or something! D. capensis is my numero uno weed! Well, next time I send you something I could send you some plantlets. >> I've been considering pruning my N. X. boissiense for a while, > >That is correct. If you want to make a terminal cutting, take off as >much as you want, 3-4 leaves at a minimum. Don't cut the stem where >it's woody and don't cut near the terminal end where the stem is too >flimsy. An old CPN article gives a neat method that seems to work, >where after you take the terminal cutting, you then wait for a new >crown to break on the stem just below where you took the cutting. You >can then take a one-node cutting, I agree with this method, and this article is how I learned to take cuttings. Funny though, my terminal cutting usually only has 2 or 3 leaves and I usually do fine. Also, as for the rest of the branch I always take single node cuttings as described in the article. >Speaking of land Utriculatria, do they have the same trapping mechanism, >'bladders' as the aquatic type? Yep! Of course, there is a bewildering variety of flanges, flaps, hairs, bumps, lumps and glands that makes each species' trap almost unique. Taylor relies on it heavily in his keys. This wild array of traps makes me somewhat less impressed by claims that since Poly*etc has strange traps, it should be classified as a distinct genus. BAMR ################### From: mjc Date: Wed, 04 Dec 91 18:58:37 MST Subject: SEM Nope, Barry doesn't have an SEM; he's an ASTRONOMER. Still, I suppose if you put Nepenthes pollen in Barry's chair, then climbed up on top of the observatory and looked down the 'scope the wrong way... might be as good as an SEM. Waddya think, Barry? I've used the SEM for taxonomy work, but only on IMPORTANT plants which have GREAT significance to botanical study... Echinocactus polycephalus for example. I wouldn't bet too much on Nepenthes pollen being useful for taxonomy. Pollen is usually not taxonomically useful for sub-generic taxa. I would say flower and seed morphology are likely to be more useful. It would also be interesting to SEM some of that epidermal pubescence. It isn't even worth doing though, unless you've got field collected material with data. MJC ################### From: Robert.Allen%Eng.Sun.COM@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Email Mujahideen) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 91 16:57:20 PST XSubject: Re: SEM >> >>I agree with Mike. I stuck those seeds in a pot and put them by my many >>other seed pots. The trick with CPs and seed, I think, is to have at least >>15 pots of different seeds sitting around at all times. I have probably >>about 50. This way, if each takes, oh, one year to germinate, on the >>average I have something new coming up each week! You sound like a real person, with a real life, and more importantly, a real backyard :-). We of lesser space must ration our space carefully, and look for new places (like our offices) to grow plants... >> >>>BTW, the D. capensis seed I got from Barry long ago never did >> >>WOW! It didn't??? Oy! Those seeds must have been hit by cosmic rays or >>something! D. capensis is my numero uno weed! Well, next time I send you >>something I could send you some plantlets. Sure, send 'em all. The mark of a REAL CP'er is how many weeds he has... BTW, my D. agnata now seems like it may have two developing seed pods, but the stem on the oldest one is now drooping. Do they normally droop before drying out? P. stalks seem more vascular, i.e. squishy, than drosera stalks, and I'm sort of wondering when to start looking for seed. The previous non-seeded flower dried up from the flower end down to the plant, which behavior seems different from that of the current stalks. r. ################### From: barry%as.arizona.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 91 08:17:09 MST XSubject: Re: SEM >You sound like a real person, with a real life, and more >importantly, a real backyard :-). We of lesser space must >ration our space carefully, and look for new places (like our >offices) to grow plants... First off, I grow all my Nepenthes at my office! Second, I'm not a real person---rather I'm just the winner of the 1991 Alan Turing contest! >BTW, my D. agnata now seems like it may have two developing seed >pods, but the stem on the oldest one is now drooping. Do they I wish I knew, but my only Mexican Ping that flowered didn't produce seed even after pollination. >Nope, Barry doesn't have an SEM; he's an ASTRONOMER. Still, I suppose if >you put Nepenthes pollen in Barry's chair, then climbed up on top of the >observatory and looked down the 'scope the wrong way... might be as good >as an SEM. Waddya think, Barry? Oh yeah, I forgot to respond to this. As Miguel points out, in astronomy we look the other way (up) usually. However, since I do a lot of instrumentation (I make stuff to observe with) we do actually use an occasional SEM to examine our detectors which are fabricated chemically to have structures on micron size scales... >I've used the SEM for taxonomy work, but only on IMPORTANT plants which >have GREAT significance to botanical study... Echinocactus polycephalus >for example. Mike, we spent thanksgiving in Mexico, near San Carlos in the Baha area. While we were there we saw weird cacti I've never seen before. They were BIG. One looked like a Saguaro but had fewer and larger lobes, and the other looked like a small Organ Pipe but with a bunch of longer brown needles near the tip. Talking a little Espanolish with the locals, I found they were called ``Cardon'' and ``Senida.'' Have you heard of these? They were pretty cool. (pronounced kar-DOAN, last syllable rhymes with ``moan'' and seh-NEE-tah) I was looking at my Nepenthes this morning and I made a few interesting observations. I found a pitcher sitting in the bottom of the terrarium, in the moist gravel. I snipped this pitcher from the plant about two weeks ago and it still looks fine! It must be sucking water through the end of the tendril in the moist gravel. Don, that X superba?? from you continues to amaze me. Today I noticed that some of the leaf tendrils do not leave the leaf at its tip, but rather from beneath the leaf just short of its tip! I thought N. rajah was the only plant to do this. Last night I read something that interested me. It is thought that the tendril and pitcher of Nepenthes are thought to be the actual leaf. What about the thing we normally call the ``leaf'' of a Nepenthes? It is thought to just be a leaf petiole with wide wings! Also, to bring up an old thread. I saw a picture of an N. bicalcarata hybrid, N. `Nina Dodd' which *Does* have little teeth. There. An entire posting from me that doesn't even mention the U-genus, and concentrates on Nepenthes! BAMR ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 91 10:45:47 PST Subject: CP in the news The local San Jose Mercury News(paper) had a full page plus article on CP a week ago. Included are several color photos of D. binata multifida and Cephalotus, taken at Peter D'Amatos collection/greenhouse in the wine country. Geoff Wong was also interviewed in the article. He mentioned what I think was his N. rajah, which is about 10 years old. I've seen it, and it's about 10" tall overall, with no pitchers, and looks poor. Apparently he's tried everything to grow it, but it's not happy. I wonder why? I've been thinking of such exotica as pressurized growth chambers to simulate it's natural habitat :-).... BTW, my machine is still up, they haven't yet take ################### From: Davin Date: Thu, 05 Dec 91 17:21:38 EST Subject: GERMINATION! Um...ahhh.... Remember me asking about D. auriculata germination and getting all upset because mine hadn't? Well, they must have heard my sobs of sorrow, because they have germinated! 8) There are about five little drosera coming up in the pot. No contact with other seed and no chance for invasion from another pot. Remember that I have these guys in a terrarium under four 4' lights. Now I'm really in agony waiting for that seed from the bank. Oh yeah, anybody ever have a D. capillaris reproduce like D. prolifera? One of my plants is putting out a rosette up on the flower stem. Davin ################### From: barry%as.arizona.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 91 08:34:43 MST XSubject: Re: GERMINATION! >Do any of these look particularly interesting? I mean, >I've got two small pots of mystery pygmies from M.C., and >they all look the same, except for one lone plant which has >wide petioles, and small leaf blades. Will gemmae grow outside >in cool weather and low light? My nitidula s.s. is producing Rob, I may not be the most objective person in this regards. I really like pygmies. They fall into two general forms, the flat rosettes like pulchella, pygmaea, etc, and the erect plants which are more like miniature capensis, i.e. dichrosepala, barbigera, scorpioides. A real attraction of these plants is their flowers. If you get tired of the infinite procession of little pink or white flowers you get from Drosera, the pygmies provide a great relief. White, pink, orange, yellow, black, often two colours to a flower---petals may be white tinged with pink at the edges, orange with black centers, the style-stigmas may be brightly coloured---deep red, white, yellow, etc. The plants themselves, grown in bright light, will be intensely coloured in greens, yellows, oranges, reds, and even though tiny are delightful. The flowers are sometimes bigger than the rosettes! Anyway, this is all subjective. If you were interested I suggest you check out Lowrie's volume II on pygmies. It's a good description of the species... >Now I'm really in agony waiting for that seed from the bank. I'm gonna track down Gordon this weekend and get his new address. I've got stuff to send him so I'll find out what's the scoop with the seed bank. I hear that he may be getting a lot of gemmae soon and that should be distributed quickly (and probably at prices cheaper than mine!). >Oh yeah, anybody ever have a D. capillaris reproduce like D. prolifera? >One of my plants is putting out a rosette up on the flower stem. Davin, I've seen this plant do this for two reasons. Both cases were when I was growing them in a very very hot terrarium with high humidity---the first time it was just an abberation. But once a plant in this terrarium produced a seed capsule which leaned against a glass wall, and condensing water germinated the seeds. I had a huge mass of seedlings growing against the glass wall, held there by the scape. I could daily inspect the growing roots against the glass---a fine botany lesson in root development. Then the moist dead scape rotted away, and over the next few *months* the plantlets slowly slid down the moist glass wall to the Sphagnum below and rooted properly. Only about 5 plants survived the tortuous descent, but by the time they were there two had grown to flowering size and were doing just that! Weirdly entertaining in a watching-the-paint-dry sort of way! >luggage. By the way, are Darlingtonia typically collected >or green house propagated? I would rather not buy >a threatened plant if it was collected. Good for you. But I think you can only rely on the reputation of the grower since plant theft is so easy. I would wait until spring to get Darlingtonia because they are dormant now and, like Sarracenia, might be easily shocked in this state. >Can anybody recommend an introductory botany textbook >for example those used in university botany classes? >Michael, surely you must have a favorite. Scott: I went to a couple of used book stores and picked some up there. I've got one I'm pleased with and which is always yielding interesting tidbits. I'll get the title for you if you want. But I'd buy whatever you can get used. Who wants to spend $45 bucks on some book you don't *need*! (that you could spend on a copy of Taylor) I got my 1992 Mellinger's catalog. This is a place I've gotten some things from, like a few wildflowers and seed packets, flats, and other items. Some products which may interest members of this group are: Darlingtonia ($2.95 each but probably tiny) Plastic pots (round and square) 2.25''---10'', reasonable prices (i.e. 100 4'' pots $12.20) but I don't know colour or sturdiness Various plastic flats Pyrethrins (conventional wisdom says CP-friendly) insecticide $3.19 Gibberellic Acid Plastic Pot labels about $4.00/100 Max/Min thermometers $23.00 And (Mike take note) a LOT of ways to make cheap greenhouses out of polyethylene etc. I recall Earl had bought some Sphagnum (dead, long fiber) from them some time ago at a good price, and the Sphagnum was OK but it had some leaves and dead grasses in it which decreased its quality some. Earl, did that turn out to be a good deal? How were shipping charges to Hawaii? I recommend this place for Garden supplies. They've been in business since the twenties and are fast shippers with reasonable shipping costs. Mellinger's Inc 2310 W. South Range Rd. North Lima, Ohio 44452-9731 (216)549-9861 order line: 1-800-3221-7444 BAMR ################### From: mjc Date: Fri, 06 Dec 91 16:22:41 MST Subject: seepy Barry, winner of the Alan Turing contest? Congratulations! That must mean you are a real computer gee... jock! Good for Alan Turing too, considering how they treated him in his lifetime, it is nice they've got a contest in his honor. Cardon = Pachycereus pringelei, looks like a saguaro, gets bigger. Senita = Lophocereus shottii, long spines on top, short ones near the bottom. The monstrose form of this is called the "totem pole cactus". I am led to believe that the leaf, tendril and pitcher of Nepenthes is all a modified leaf blade. Imagine a normal leaf folding up to make a Sarracenia. Now imagine the Sarracenia leaf base unfolding out again to form a flat leaf with the picher at the end. The anatomy of Sarr pitchers is different from that of Nepenthes, but it looks like this sort of thing may have happened. I havn't seen anything written on it (probably some German did in some old 1920's journal) but watch some Nepenthes seedlings and see. Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny? MJC ################### From: dngess01 (Don) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 91 22:58:06 -0500 Subject: CP >Don, that X superba?? from you continues to amaze me. Today I noticed that >some of the leaf tendrils do not leave the leaf at its tip, but rather >from beneath the leaf just short of its tip! I thought N. rajah was the >only plant to do this. There are others that you can see in the Kondo book, like N. clipeata, that have the same sort of peltate leaf apex (as Kurata calls it in the book, Nepenthes of Mt. Kinabalu). This is when the point the midrib turns into a tendril occurs before the leaf apex. Here's a rough pic: /-------------------\ / \ --------------------------\ | --------------------------\\ | leaf apex ^petiole \ ^midrib \\ / \ ----------------\\/ \\ \\ (to pitcher) I don't have a list of all the species of Nepenthes that have this same kind of structure. >Last night I read something that interested me. It is thought that the >tendril and pitcher of Nepenthes are thought to be the actual leaf. What >about the thing we normally call the ``leaf'' of a Nepenthes? It is >thought to just be a leaf petiole with wide wings! I read somewhere that the Nepenthes pitcher is a hollow midrib and the thing that looks like an ordinary leaf is actually the petiole. I don't remember what the actual leaf was claimed to be. I would guess a vestigial leaf is the ribs on the pitcher. BTW, there is a common tree (perhaps the Magnolia) that have no actual leaves, but the things that look like leaves are actually expanded leaf bracts. >Oh yeah, anybody ever have a D. capillaris reproduce like D. prolifera? >One of my plants is putting out a rosette up on the flower stem. I had a D. intermedia do that this past summer. It just produced a single leaf that died in about a week. I guess it got too dry. I also had a D. capensis produce a leaf that was forked. Another wierd thing that happened last year was a plant I found growing in the soil of one of my Nepenthes. Turned out to be a nice rabbit's foot fern. I have never had one of these and don't know how it got there. >Do any of these look particularly interesting? I mean, >I've got two small pots of mystery pygmies from M.C., and >they all look the same, except for one lone plant which has >wide petioles, and small leaf blades. Will gemmae grow outside >in cool weather and low light? My nitidula s.s. is producing The plant with the wide petioles is most probably D. pulchella. BTW, Glasshouse Works will be selling Nepenthes this year. Perhaps up to 45 different species and hybrids. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 91 21:03:43 PST Subject: Re: CP >>Another wierd thing that >>happened last year was a plant I found growing in the soil of one of my >>Nepenthes. Turned out to be a nice rabbit's foot fern. I have never had >>one of these and don't know how it got there. I got one in a potted Nepenthes I bought from Severins Orchids locally. It must be a common freebie. >> >>The plant with the wide petioles is most probably D. pulchella. Ah, thanks. >> >>BTW, Glasshouse Works will be selling Nepenthes this year. Perhaps up to >>45 different species and hybrids. More information on this please? Like, phone, address, etc.. r. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 91 21:17:13 PST Subject: Re: Calif. Carnivores. and Botany books >>I will be visiting my parents in Burlingame (CA) >>around Christmas and naturally want to visit >>Calif. Carnivores while I am in the area. Does anybody >>know their phone number (Robert, I think you posted >>it once) or at least what city they are in. Also, >>I plan on buying myself a Darlingtonia and a Cephalotus >>for Christmas. >>Do these travel well this time of year? They will >>probably have to be in plastic bags in my carry on >>luggage. By the way, are Darlingtonia typically collected >>or green house propagated? I would rather not buy >>a threatened plant if it was collected. I believe that C.C.'s darlingtonia are cultivated, if they have any for sale. I also know of a place across the bay which carried "tagged & bagged" d's, which are cheap, bareroot, and usually half dead, but are sometimes good for a rescue. C.C. may or may not have cephalotus for sale, and if they do expect it to be 20-40 dolleros. As for travel, I can't say, but I don't think they are that sensitive. C.C. is about a 1.5 hr drive from Burlingame, and there are a couple of excellent wineries in the same are if you are so inclined, or need to buy gifts (if they're open this time of year). In Palo Alto, about 20 minutes from Burlingame in the opposite direction, am I. You can if you wish see my small and currently less than excited looking collection outside, plus what I have in my terrarium. Also in the Junior museum in Palo Alto is a small collection of CP contributed mostly by Geoff Wong. He lives just down the street, but I don't know him well enough to invite myself over. Chuck Powell has his plants and place in San Jose, about 30-40 minutes from Burlingame (he sells too). C.C. advises calling ahead in the winter months since they aren't always open. If you are interested, and our schedules co-incide, I'd be willing to take a trip up there as well. CP Nurseries ------------ Chuck Powell 2138 Harrison Street Santa Clara, CA 95050 USA California Carnivores Peter D'Amato Nursery: Mark West Vineyards, off River Rd., 5.5 miles west of 101, south of Santa Rosa. open 7 days a week, 10-"till about 4pm", Office (home): Guernville, 707-869-3641 ################### From: barry%as.arizona.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 91 07:38:27 MST XSubject: Re: Calif. Carnivores. and Botany books >Cardon = Pachycereus pringelei, looks like a saguaro, gets bigger. >Senita = Lophocereus shottii, long spines on top, short ones near the >bottom. The monstrose form of this is called the "totem pole cactus". I actually preferred the Cardon to Saguaros, but that may have been because of the novelty. Organ Pipes are still my favorite cacti and the Senitas all looked kind of sickly but I think that's just how they look and not a reflection on these plants alone. >I am led to believe that the leaf, tendril and pitcher of Nepenthes is >all a modified leaf blade. Imagine a normal leaf folding up to make >I read somewhere that the Nepenthes pitcher is a hollow midrib and the thing >that looks like an ordinary leaf is actually the petiole. I don't remember I'll let you two thrash it out. >There are others that you can see in the Kondo book, like N. clipeata, that >have the same sort of peltate leaf apex (as Kurata calls it in the book, Huh. I didn't know this. Nice bit-art, though. >In Palo Alto, about 20 minutes from Burlingame in the opposite >direction, am I. You can if you wish see my small and currently Rob, I'm going to be making a few stops to California this next year. Maybe I'll stop by and pester you. On the agenda already is San Diego and L.A. >The address is: >Glasshouse Works >Church Street, P.O. Box 97 >Stewart, OH 45778-0097 >The CPN of last year says the catalog is free. It is, and it's great to look through. Good in the bathroom. Ooh Ooh! I have some scapes coming up in my ``U. monanthos' from Fred Howell. It should be interesting to see what it is. It looks like the flowers will be very small. BAMR ################### From: Scott Brown Date: Mon, 9 Dec 91 10:33:43 EST Subject: Re: Calif. Carnivores. and Botany books > C.C. may or may not have cephalotus for sale, and if they do > expect it to be 20-40 dolleros. As for travel, I can't say, > but I don't think they are that sensitive. $20--$40?? That is probably a little more than a neophyte like me should pay for a plant I might kill. With orchids I have found that the life of a plant under my cultivation is inversly proportional to the price paid. I think Peter Pauls has Cephalotus for about $10. Scott ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 91 22:29:30 +1100 Subject: Field trip (again!) I'm not sure if Paul mentioned it, but we have finally seen the U. laterifolia plants growing at Langwarring F&F Reserve. They were growing in one of the few boggy sites (the rest is dry old sand-dunes/heathlands), not far from the stand of D. binata and D. spathulata plants. There were a few flowers open and there also appeared to be many flower stalks/buds (although I didn't have a close look, so these could be some other plant). The brings up the total number of CPs found at the site to about 8 or 9. The D. auriculata plants have all died and dried, as have all the Polypomphlyx plants (no sign at all). However, the "mystery" aquatic Utric. has reappeared in the old reservoir after hiding out over winter (I doubt it forms turions, but it may sink or hide amongst the reeds and other water weeds). Suprisingly, it doesn't seem concerned about algae, which is something of a killer with home-grown plants. ################### From: barry%as.arizona.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 91 18:17:46 MST XSubject: Re: Field trip (again!) >$20--$40?? That is probably a little more than a neophyte like me >should pay for a plant I might kill. With orchids I have found that Really, if I were you I'd network around and see if you can find a grower who would be willing to trade you some Cephalotus. Sorry, but I only have two plants myself and can't spare them. >I'm not sure if Paul mentioned it, but we have finally seen the U. >laterifolia plants growing at Langwarring F&F Reserve. They were >growing in one of the > >a close look, so these could be some other plant). The brings up the >total number of CPs found at the site to about 8 or 9. :| >but it may sink or hide amongst the reeds and other water weeds). >Suprisingly, it doesn't seem concerned about algae, which is something >of a killer with home-grown plants. I've seen that Utrics in the wild can sometimes be COATED with algae and do OK. Cultivation doesn't compare to the real thing sometimes. > the things bloom! Maybe I should just send you some money and > tell you to send me something interesting :-). Sure, if you want, Rob. Just give me an idea of how many species you want. >Barry, what is the lifespan of pigmie Drosera? My pygmies are setting >gemmae now and look real ratty. How long d'st it take for pigmys to >mature from gemmae? Do you dump any of your pigmees after they >gemmaeify; starting them a'fresh from gemmae? Have any trouble with >mealy pygmys? My D. leucoblasta seems to have 'em bad. In with the >gemmae too. Perennials. Sometimes they look ratty coming out of dormancy, other times they look great. I've had some pygmies grow from gemmae to flower in one season. Most take a full year. If you just sow a gemma on the soil surface it may take a while to grow. For faster service, dig a hole about 3mm deep and two mm wide with a toothpick, then put a single gemma in the hole. Don't cover it up. You get a little humid microclimate and the gemmae come up REALLY fast this way. Mistuh Maharajh also suggests putting the humidity way up. I don't know about him, but I don't grow the mature plants in terribly high humidity (like in a terrarium). Generally pygmies are considered bad terrarium subjects. I've started and grown gemmae for a few months in them. I don't kill my pygmies unless they are too closely packed. Mealies, huh? Once I got really bad aphids on my clumps of nitidula nitidulas but I killed them off by putting about 2 drops of isopropyl alcohol on each rosette. Two applications did it. Killed the aphids, that is, not the pygmies. On to some addresses: First the long awaited one... Gordon Snelling 300 W. Carter Drive Glendora CA 91740 (818)914-9641 On a phone call with him he chided me soundly for having misplaced his address twice (he claims). Bridgett was puttering around in the kitchen and looked up startled when I said to Gordon, ``Well I've been having pygmy troubles.'' I guess it sounds strange. Secondly, while many are waiting for Mellinger's catalogs I have another one for you, Orchids by Hausermann. This place is mostly a place to buy orchids but they have some supplies that might interest you, too. There's the usual array of plastic labels and pots, a bale of Sphagnum moss for $16.25, and YES, the long sought Malathion WP (wettable powder) for $9.50, 4 lbs. I don't know what shipping charges are like for them. Probably a killer for the moss. Orchids by Hausermann, Inc. 2N 134 Addison Rd. Villa Park, IL (Just a few miles away from my childhood home) 60181-1191 Don, that's a good selection of plants you have. I noticed you're fighting the big challenge, D. linearis. How are you doing with it? >Barry, the bugs I have DO jump a cm or two, very quickly, after being >touched. Kinda like fleas. Do you think they are springtails? Can >they do any damage? My plants don't seem to be eating any of them... I think they *may* be springtails, but I'm no bug expert. Doesn't sound like they're anything I'd worry about. Really, those tiny crawling bugs usually eat decaying material, and if they are associated with a plant's death it really means that something was off regarding your cultural method, and the plant weakened and became susceptible to attack by usually harmless varmints. Look for ways to cure the problem in those cases and not the symptoms. >The latest CPN arrived. It has some nice photos in it, >a few ads, including Gordon advertising Nepenthes for sale, >and some interesting articles. It also has a list of >International CP sources. Wow! Usually I start iching for CPN before it appears. This one came up on me completely by surprise. I look forward to getting it! >potted them up in a while back. The D. adelae roots Barry sent >are growing like weeds, under lights, with about 10 small growth **** Not ``like'' weeds, they ARE weeds! Nice ones, though. Hey, my D. auriculata ``Taylor'' is starting to come up. OK you two southerners, tell me. What kind of water table do you use to grow these. Specifically, about how many cm from soil surface to the water level. I assume full sun? Do you fertilize? Data Data Data Data BAMR ################### From: Robert.Allen%Eng.Sun.COM@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Date: Thu, 12 Dec 91 09:18:15 PST XSubject: Re: Field trip (again!) >>>$20--$40?? That is probably a little more than a neophyte like me >>>should pay for a plant I might kill. With orchids I have found that >> >>Really, if I were you I'd network around and see if you can find a grower >>who would be willing to trade you some Cephalotus. Sorry, but I only have >>two plants myself and can't spare them. This is probably a good idea, although I've never had good luck with buying ceph through the mail. If you do buy it, request that it be sent in the pot, not bareroot. A small plant will have a tough enough time surviving shipping, doing it bareroot is almost guaranteed to kill it. The only way I ever got a good living plant was by going to WIP personally and picking one up (which later bit the big one when I went to college). California Carnivores generally caters to people who aren't collectors, so they have the standby hardy plants. They do sell exotic Nepenthes, drosera, etc., but this is a less formal process. I think if you just walk in cold and ask for an exotic plant, you may not get one if Peter doesn't think you can handle it, or unless he has lots of extras. It took me a few months to line up a ceph. Plus, he generally has exotic plants in smaller quantities, and charges what the traffic will bear. >> >>> the things bloom! Maybe I should just send you some money and >>> tell you to send me something interesting :-). >> >> >>Sure, if you want, Rob. Just give me an idea of how many species you >>want. We'll see if I can get off my dead buttocks and actually send an order in. >> >> >>>Barry, what is the lifespan of pigmie Drosera? My pygmies are >>>setting gemmae now and look real ratty. How long d'st it take for >>>pigmys to mature from gemmae? Do you dump any of your pigmees after >>>they gemmaeify; starting them a'fresh from gemmae? Have any trouble >>>with mealy pygmys? My D. leucoblasta seems to have 'em bad. In with >>>the gemmae too. My limited selection also looks ratty, but they looked great during the spring and summer. I grow 'em outside, as does Chuck Powell, and they do fine with a few hours of sun in our California env. Right now we're getting night temps down in the 30's, and day temps in the 60's, so growth is considerably slowed. As long as you don't overwater the less complex ones seem pretty hardy. Robert ################### From: Scott Brown Date: Fri, 13 Dec 91 14:17:19 EST Subject: Re: Robert has another ingenious idea. > > > Last night, while reading the Orchids by Hausermann catalog I > just received, I had an inspiration. The catalog advertises a > multi-level plant growth fixture, with 2 twin tube fixtures at > each level. From the photo it appears that custom made aluminum > or plastic square section spars are used to construct the > fixture. > > I recently built such a rack. I made it out of 3/16'' angle aluminum (L shaped cross section). Looking back on it, I probably could have gotten away with 1/8'' thick Al. The rack is about 4' by 2' and has 4 levels. If it wasn't for a few tall plants, I probably could get 5 levels out of it. I bought wire closet shelving at a local hardware store to support the plant trays and my fluorescent shop-lites hang down from the shelving on the level above. My big problem was in finding trays to set the plants in. Ideally I wanted welded aluminum trays that could be bolted into the rack but they were much too expensive >$100 each. The solution was to get the plastic covers for flourescent lights (the recessed type) you see in office buildings. These are plastic trays that are 4'' x 2'' so they are perfect in size but a bit flimsy. I have added shades to the rack partly to serve additional reflectors and partly to keep the light out of my eyes should they be on while I am sleeping -all of my plants are in my bedroom. The next addition to the rack will probably to put plastic doors on it to try to get the humidity up. I have used brass bolts to fasten everything together and it looks nice against the aluminum. One advantage of the L shaped angle aluminum as opposed to the square crossection is that when the rack is disassembled, the pieces nest together and don't take up much room. When I move, I can put the entire frame in a ski box and send it in the mail to my next destiniation. I should save some money on the postage because the Al is much lighter than steel (although it is significantly more expensive). Really my main reason for choosing Al over other materials was that it is easy to work with and doesn't rust. Some of the extra cost is recovered because it also does not need painting. > My ingenious idea (pat. pending) is to use PVC plastic tubing > and joints to make a frame to suspend, or support, the light > fixtures. I've used PVC before to make a greenhouse in the late > 1970's, and it's a quick and easy way to make almost any > strcture. It can be painted after you've glued it up to make it > asthetically pleasing. And it's cheap. I may try it out over > Xmas vacation if I get ambitios and have some spare cash. For the top shelf on my rack (6' above the floor), I plan to suspend the fluorescent fixture from the celing. This might work for you although you would need long chains. If you are considering building some sort of indoor light rack I would recomend looking at a 30 page booklet put out by the Indoor Gardening Society (of America?). I bought it for about $3 from the American Orchid Society. It has lots of tips and also contains about 10 designs for light racks that people have constructed. One of the more interesting ones was sombody who converted their fireplace into a plant growing area. Scott ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 16:40:41 PST Subject: Ground pitchers on N. ampullaria. I've noticed an interesting habit on my ampullaria "green". The ground pitchers do not form off a rhizome, but off of stubby leaves/petioles, as normal. However, once one or at most two leaves/pitchers are produced, the unfolding meristem turns black and fails to produce more leaves. Further, additional offshoots will form quickly to replace the no longer growing meristems. In my observation this is how the ground pitchers form. Can anyone with ampullaria confirm this? Do you normally see lots of ground pitchers? Robert ################### From: dngess01 (Don) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 91 23:54:40 -0500 Subject: CP >Don, that's a good selection of plants you have. I noticed you're fighting >the big challenge, D. linearis. How are you doing with it? So far, so good. I got several from Rob with some P. vulgaris hibernicula. They are still in the refrigerator. The new CPN has an article on P. villosa. This species produces 2-3 leaves per year and its growing season is only four months. I got the new CPN today too (on Monday). On the cover is a D. graminifolia, which looks sort of like D. filiformis. The "want ads" lists S. psittacina 'yellow flower' being sold for $35! They also mention N. rajah can be bought on the black market in the USA for $1000 per plant! Don Schnell also mentions the article in CPN from several years ago about the Holland nursery supposedly growing thousands of Dionaea and Sarracenia from seed and leaf cuttings. He called this a fake, and the plants were really collected from the wild in the USA. I sent everyone in the group my list of CP. I will probably have most of these plants available sometime next season. My favorite CP genus is Nepenthes and I'll also gladly accept orchids - awarded Cattleya clones is probably my favorite type of orchid. These are my preferences, but I'll probably trade for other things too (Drosera/Pinguicula/Sarracenia/Sun workstations/etc...). If I have have plenty of a certain type (like Utricularia or some species of Drosera), then I'll give them away. Utricularia and Drosera root cuttings can usually be put in baggies and shipped in regular envelopes with no problems. For Cephalotus, Bill Carroll used to have in-vitro propagated Cephalotus. Try the "Hungry Plants" catalog. The catalog costs $1.00 and the address is 1216 Cooper Drive, Raleigh, NC 27607 ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 91 16:59:06 PST Subject: Utric info requested I have some questions about my Utrilularia culture. I list the species I have below, and what I know of the culture based on reading in (primarily) Slack. I'd appreciate any further, abbreviated, info. I'm primarily concerned about some plants I have outside, which aren't real active. I'm wondering which species are warm growers, and thus should be confined to my heated, indoor, terrarium. Also, what's involved in getting these guys to flower? So far livida has put up quite a number of scapes, and sandersonii has put up a few, but the rest are not putting up any. Utricularia +++++++++++ gibba (aquatic) - I believe this is a U.S. species, and can take (at least) non freezing winter temps. graminifolia - seems quite happy indoors. juncea - VERY slow growing outdoors. livida - very happy outdoors. nephrophylla praelonga - keep very wet, dormant in winter. prehensilis - likes shade. pubescens sandersonii - outdoor one flowering, indoor one isn't. striata (aquatic) - mine may well be dead. tricolor - keep very wet, tropical temps & humidity. Happy indoors. ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 15:42:13 PST XSubject: Re: Utric info requested A few things: I just got an update from Peter Pauls. They have a limited number of the following: D. anglica, D. linearis (shipped in May), P. esseriana X moranensis, P. esseriana, P. caerula., plus other, fairly common, stuff. Prices are high, and there are no guarantees on the items I was looking at my notes on my Nepenthes sowing, and I noticed that, of the 5 or so species of Nepenthes I sowed, only N. fusca isn't coming up in large numbers. Co-incidentally this is the only species I didn't microwave the wet soil of before planting. When I nuked the milled, dried spahgnum it was hot to the touch. Perhaps the heat and wet help start germination? I have a new flyer from Allen Lowrie at home, but haven't looked at it yet. Aside from Scott, anyone else going to be in the SF Bay Area the next couple of weeks? ################### From: barry%as.arizona.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 01:16:29 MST XSubject: Re: Utric info requested >Subject: Ground pitchers on N. ampullaria. >how the ground pitchers form. Can anyone with ampullaria >confirm this? Do you normally see lots of ground pitchers? Rob, this is interesting. I don't know if my amp `red' produces ground pitchers. There are many pitchers that look for all the world like ground pitchers, but if you poke around in the Sphagnum you find normal leaves connecting the pitchers to the stem. If these qualify as ground pitchers I think ground pitchers is sort of a silly term. Maybe you've hit upon genuine ones. >four months. I got the new CPN today too (on Monday). On the cover is a >D. graminifolia, which looks sort of like D. filiformis. The "want >ads" lists My first thought was that it was a strange D. regia. >S. psittacina 'yellow flower' being sold for $35! They also mention N. >rajah I admit that I've spent up to about $20 USA on a particularly interesting clone of Sarracenia, and might JUST shell out $35 if I found a verified S. leucophylla alba. For example, if Don Schnell was parting with one. >Don Schnell also mentions the article in CPN from several years ago >about the Holland nursery supposedly growing thousands of Dionaea and >Sarracenia from seed and leaf cuttings. He called this a fake, and the >plants were really collected from the wild in the USA. This really depressed me. Whenever I look through old CPNs and I happen upon this issue I always get frozen when I see all those ZILLIONS of VFTs and S. psittacina in that huge greenhouse. I've tried to figure out if it was maybe a trick photo. It's really disgusting those were all field collected. Really disgusting. >and I'll also gladly accept orchids - awarded Cattleya clones is probably I've tried growing orchids a couple times, always with dismal results. I'm not going to try again for a while yet. I have a hot, low humidity growing area. > I have some questions about my Utrilularia culture. I list the > species I have below, and what I know of the culture based on reading Species Tropical Temperate Flowering gibba* Yes Yes Keep < 1" H2O, give it sand to dig in graminifolia Yes Yes? Water table high, chill a while. juncea Yes Yes Patience---Do NOT disturb livida sounds like you're doing fine with this sandersonii sounds like you're doing fine with this nephrophylla Yes No ???? grows well wet praelonga Yes No? ???? grows well wet prehensilis Yes No Patience. Grows well wet, too. pubescens Yes No Patience. Likes shade. striata No Yes Tough. Mike does well keeping it cold tricolor Yes No Produces many branching scapes which abort *gibba is pantropical too, and different clones behave differently. My florida plant flowers constantly, but my B.C. plant never has. Just my $.02 BAMR P.S. Drat! My U. monanthos from Fred Howell flowered, but the flowers turned out to be some U. subulata in with the `monanthos' from Fred. Damn those weeds! ################### From: Robert.Allen%Eng.Sun.COM@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Email Mujahideen) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 20:17:04 PST XSubject: Re: Utric info requested >> >>Places I've ordered from or know: >> >>Peter Pauls Nurseries----terribly mislabelled plants, lousy service, a lot >> ----of field collected garbage However they are my source for live spahgnm, one of the few things they probably can't mis-id. >>Chuck Powell-----never had any problems the few times I ordered from him. I've visited his place and purchased from him, and he's not bad, though when I bought from him his plants weren't looking quite so hot. >>Hungry Plants---Good service. Will do some trades. I had a dionea in a bottle someone gave me, which died on the transplant. Do they sell non-bottled plants? >> >>Also, there was another place I recall named Cedar Ridge. Never >>ordered from them and don't know if they're still around. I called them early this year and they were out of the CP business. They lost their stock to frost and/or lost their supplier. >> >>I checked it out. Some of the usual tubers and seeds. I may see if I can >>find anyone who may be up for getting some D. petiolaris complex plants >>from him. His usual deal is he sells a lot of four plants (all the same >>species) for $28 Australian (about $22 USA). While this is expensive on a >>per person basis, it's not too bad if two or more people split the bill and >>plants. Anyone interested? I'm thinking about going in on getting anything >>other than D. petiolaris `Kununurra' or a few others I can't recall right >>now. Maybe get a lanata or try falconeri again. Warning: These >>plants are not easy! What is lanata like? I'd be up for either of the ones you mention. I have a petiolaris K. from Gordon, which wasn't cheap BTW, which is finally coming out of dormancy and growing in my terrarium. When spring comes I' think I'll move it outside. I'd be up for a portion of any of the other petiolaris complex, although I'd be concerned about doing a multi-hop shipment. Maybe if we paid extra he'd box 'em up seperately and ship 'em direct (not likely probably). I'm thinking of ordering a D. macrantha, gigantea, and/or zonaria in January, after I overcome the Xmas cash drain. >> >>I'm really pleased with this issue of CPN. Gordon has a well written, >>straightforward article about cultivating D. petiolaris `Kununurra,' >>my only complaint about it is while he says leaf cuttings are very >>easy none of mine have been successful. I wonder what I'm doing wrong. >>Guess I'll try again. It sounds like he peels his leaves off like artichoke leaves. >> >> >>But then there's this article by J.D. Williams entitled, Plant vs. Animus. >>This article is, well, loopy! I've read it twice now and still can't >>figure out just what the hell the author is trying to say. The best I >>can make out of it is that non-Homo sapiens species have a different >>reality because they have different sorts of sensory input. Then this >>leads into the idea that maybe an animal walking through grass might >>mistake the situation to be one in which it is standing still and the >>ground and plants are moving underfoot. Goofy! I thought it gave the issue a sort of philosophical aire :-). I'm pondering setting up a terrarium at work under lights, but I can't bare to tear up my roots (:-)) and leave my plans sitting at work all alone in the evenings. I like walking by my terrarium at home each night. Maybe work can become a propagation tank, which would give me something new to look for every day I went in. Robert ################### From: barry%as.arizona.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 19:45:02 MST XSubject: Re: Utric info requested > CP Nurseries > ------------ Good Collection of data! Regarding my own $.02 for this stuff: Has anyone ordered from any of the following places? Acid-Wetland Flora Nature et Paysages Alain Christophe Maries Orchids & CP Heldon Nurseries Hinode-Kadan Nursery Sarracenia Nurseries Thysanotus-Seed-Mailorder South West Seeds Roy Young Cyril G. Brown Renate Parsley Milingimbi Nursery Glasshouse Works Places I've ordered from or know: Peter Pauls Nurseries----terribly mislabelled plants, lousy service, a lot ----of field collected garbage Chuck Powell-----never had any problems the few times I ordered from him. Hungry Plants---Good service. Will do some trades. Orgel's Orchids---Uniformly good service Lee's Botanical Gardens---Same as Orgel's except once he sent me a pretty ---damned pathetic order. I was peaved. Still am. Allen Lowrie---My Australian connection for well identified plants. Southwest Carnivores---Gordon gets my obviously biased recommendation. Mellinger's Inc---good source for supplies. Oversights: Fred Howell 3 Normandy Avenue Para Hills, 5098 Southern Australia ******************* A collection of uniquely misidentified plants. No, really Fred seems to be a fine sort. If I recall, he has a selection of Drosera, Utricularia, Nepenthes, Pings, usual stuff mostly. Also, there was another place I recall named Cedar Ridge. Never ordered from them and don't know if they're still around. > I just got an update from Peter Pauls. They have a limited > number of the following: D. anglica*, D. linearis** (shipped in > May), P. esseriana X moranensis***, P. esseriana***, P. caerula****, plus > other, fairly common, stuff. Prices are high, and there are > no guarantees on the items * Probably a confused mix of intermedia and capillaris ** Sounds like they've gone on a collecting expedition to Michigan. *** Good god, it could be any of the Mexican Pings or hybrids **** or maybe it's lutea, planifolia, primuliflora, or ionanatha. Whatever survived the road trip back from Florida in the trunk of the chevy. One symptom of unsuccessful observing for a multiple day observing run is I may get a little more crass than is usual for even me! So from my comments above you may recognize a certain distaste I have for Peter Pauls. It may have something to do with ordering P. lutea and planifolia and getting misidentified caerulea (mistaking a *caerulea* for a *planifolia*!), growing S. oreophila seeds to maturity and getting leucophylla hybrids instead, and never answering my letters about these problems. > I have a new flyer from Allen Lowrie at home, but haven't looked > at it yet. I checked it out. Some of the usual tubers and seeds. I may see if I can find anyone who may be up for getting some D. petiolaris complex plants from him. His usual deal is he sells a lot of four plants (all the same species) for $28 Australian (about $22 USA). While this is expensive on a per person basis, it's not too bad if two or more people split the bill and plants. Anyone interested? I'm thinking about going in on getting anything other than D. petiolaris `Kununurra' or a few others I can't recall right now. Maybe get a lanata or try falconeri again. Warning: These plants are not easy! I'm really pleased with this issue of CPN. Gordon has a well written, straightforward article about cultivating D. petiolaris `Kununurra,' my only complaint about it is while he says leaf cuttings are very easy none of mine have been successful. I wonder what I'm doing wrong. Guess I'll try again. I like the Brazil article, and a note in which Don Schnell essentially slaps Allen Lowrie's and N. Marchant's hands for not describing many of the species in Lowrie's books. But my favourite part of the issue is the excellent article about the rarely described P. villosa in the Yukon. Everything you'd want is here: locations, photographs, maps, meteorological data, cultivation hints, and even *very* shiny Canadian pennies! There's also a nice article following it about P. vulgaris. As a sad counterpoint, I noticed that about 1/3 of the articles in the literature review contain accounts of habitat destruction and field collecting. But then there's this article by J.D. Williams entitled, Plant vs. Animus. This article is, well, loopy! I've read it twice now and still can't figure out just what the hell the author is trying to say. The best I can make out of it is that non-Homo sapiens species have a different reality because they have different sorts of sensory input. Then this leads into the idea that maybe an animal walking through grass might mistake the situation to be one in which it is standing still and the ground and plants are moving underfoot. Goofy! The author obviously spends too much time by himself. My theory is he got in an automobile accident---he fell asleep at the wheel and drove off the road. Now he's trying to figure out how to convince the judge not to give him a ticket---his defense being it was the *road's* fault it drove out from underneath him. In fact, he was just sitting in his stationary car! Uh huh. BAMR ################### From: Robert.Allen%Eng.Sun.COM@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Email Mujahideen) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 91 20:47:28 PST XSubject: Re: Utric info requested >>Rob, this is interesting. I don't know if my amp `red' produces >>ground pitchers. There are many pitchers that look for all the world >>like ground pitchers, but if you poke around in the Sphagnum you find >>normal leaves connecting the pitchers to the stem. If these qualify as >>ground pitchers I think ground pitchers is sort of a silly term. >>Maybe you've hit upon genuine ones. Well, I have "normal" leaves, but for the same pitcher size as the tendrilled pitchers, the leaves are so small as to be almost non- existant. Plus the ground leaves never vine. I've never believed that pitchers come directly from a root or tuber. >> >>>four months. I got the new CPN today too (on Monday). On the cover is a >>>D. graminifolia, which looks sort of like D. filiformis. The "want ads" lists >> >>My first thought was that it was a strange D. regia. I thought it looked cool. Sadly it's on Gordons "NFSOT" list, so it must be rare. Why are all the plants I like rare? I just grow em for the way they look. >> >>>S. psittacina 'yellow flower' being sold for $35! They also mention >>>N. rajah >>I admit that I've spent up to about $20 USA on a particularly >>interesting clone of Sarracenia, and might JUST shell out $35 if I >>found a verified S. leucophylla alba. For example, if Don Schnell was >>parting with one. My aim is to increase my holdings of Sarracenia so I can have large tubs/pots in my small backyard. They look cool. I've already decided to move my small collection out of the bird-protective enclosure in spring, to make more room IN the enclosure for growing :-). >>This really depressed me. Whenever I look through old CPNs and I >>happen upon this issue I always get frozen when I see all those >>ZILLIONS of VFTs and S. psittacina in that huge greenhouse. I've >>tried to figure out if it was maybe a trick photo. It's really >>disgusting those were all field collected. Really disgusting. Particularly since it's foreign plundering. On the other hand, in the late '70's I saw lots of dionea seedlings at Antonelli Brothers in Santa Cruz. I'm not sure I completely believe they were all field collected. >> >>> I have some questions about my Utrilularia culture. I list the >>> species I have below, and what I know of the culture based on reading >> >>Species Tropical Temperate Flowering >>gibba* Yes Yes Keep < 1" H2O, give it sand to dig in Hmmm. So far it's still alive in a cup of water and moss. Maybe in spring I'll add some soil. I didn't know it liked to root. >>graminifolia Yes Yes? Water table high, chill a while. Geez, the one you sent me is already filling the pot I put it in in my terrarium. When do you chill it? The one in with my D. collinseae, which isn't looking so happy, is/are doing great. >>juncea Yes Yes Patience---Do NOT disturb Mine's outside, I think still alive, but inactive. >>nephrophylla Yes No ???? grows well wet Ahh, well it should be happier now that i've moved it indoors. >>praelonga Yes No? ???? grows well wet Growing like weeds indoors. I think I'll take one pot to work. >>prehensilis Yes No Patience. Grows well wet, too. Hmm. I'll have to move the one outside inside. I'll have to make room... >>pubescens Yes No Patience. Likes shade. Damn, now I'm really out of room. I think I'll put it on the bottom level of my split level terrarium. It's shady, warm, and will catch water from the pots above. ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 91 09:01:47 +1100 Subject: Re: Auriculata info >Hey! What about my cultural information regarding the D. auriculata. >If nothing else, could you tell me where the original plants were collected >from? I like this kind of data to go with my plants. Well, we've collected seed from a few sources around this area over the years, so I can't guarantee that it's from one spot. The possible sources are Langwarrin, Frankston (in particular, Karingal which I guess you'd call a minor suburb or "estate" of Frankston and Ballam Park which is in Karingal), and there's a slight chance that some came from further away such as Red Hill and Cranbourne. Basically though, Frankston would be the major source. Or you could just put Mornington Peninsula which would cover all sources... Cultural info: grow them in either 1:1 or 2:1 peat:sand mix. Keep them moist during late-autumn (fall) through until the time they become yellow or black some time in spring or summer, when you should let them dry out (don't dig them up - leave the tubers in the pots). They are fairly undemanding plants (ie. they are weeds ;-) ) CU in 1992 ********* Didn't see any CP while I was on my house huntin' trip (bit too late in the season, probably). I did a quite 1/2 day visit of the Mount Stromlo observatory (run by the Australian National University - they also have some 'scopes at Siding Spring), Tidbinbilla Tracking Station (run by NASA etc.), and Namadgi National Park. On the road to Namadgi N.P. is a place called Gibraltar Falls - dunno if this is part of the N.P. or a separate reserve. I had a bit of a walk around there, and saw plenty of triggerplants (Stylidium graminifolium(?)), fringe lilies (Thysanotus tuberosus) and some cinnamon bells (Gastrodia sesamoides). The latter is an leafless saprophytic orchid - you can only find them when they are in flower. The flower stalks were around 60cm or so tall, which around 10-20 flowers on each. Judging by the other plants in the area and the terrain, it might be a good site for Drosera peltata etc. I also visited the Australian National Botanic Gardens, but didn't notice any CP's on my quite walk. I think I'll probably join "Friends of the A.N.B.G." and drop a few hints... :-) When I was last there (about 2 years ago), there were plans to build a tropical house at the top of the fern gully - no sign of any building construction there. There are plenty of other Nature Parks etc. scattered throughout Canberra, so I should be kept reasonably busy CP spotting. The Snowy Mountains are about 2 hours drive away, so I might be able to investigate some of the alpine sphagnum bogs as well... Well, it's been great talking to you guys over the past year or so. Hopefully I can keep in contact one way or another in the future... Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all! +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul Taylor Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology | | C/O s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 91 09:49:14 PST Subject: U.C. Santa Cruz CP I just called U.C. Santa Cruz, my alma mater, to find out the status of their limited CP collection. There is an arboretum which has a "pitiful" collection according to the person I spoke to on the phone. He said they have a couple of nepenthes, and some other stuff. When I checked this out in 1979 they had them all in a geo-dome shadehouse. Very dark. Nothing looked very happy, but the Nepenthes looked the least etoliated. I'm in the process of tracking down the remainder of my collection in the Thimann labs greenhouses. I called and left a phone mesg. I'm hoping to ride up there on my motorcycle next week (Highway 1 down the coast is a beautiful ride) and view what I can. I do have an ulterior motive, in that I'd like to recover some cuttings of any plant I can, if I can convince them they were my plants. Maybe I'll take an old CPN with me to prove I was growing then :-). Maybe I can work out a trade, or a donation, or something. Scott, I'd welcome you along, but I suspect they will be closed down in the time period you'll be here. Have you called California Carnivores yet? Robert