################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 13:30:22 mst Subject: Introductions Don Burden, meet Michael Chamberland (asmjc@asuacad.bitnet) and Rob Maharajh (maharaj@mcmaster.bitnet), and of course me (Barry). We're all "CPers". Michael is a Botany grad at Ariz. State U (Phoenix/Tempe), Rob is a grad at McMaster (Ontario), and I'm grad at U. of Arizona (astronomy). I could make more introductions, but (as you probably know, Don), I have put some announcements in the Rec.gardens network AND the Orchids network, saying hello to any CPers...well, now my mailbox is flooded, and I've got to sort through a lot of stuff... AND push back the frontiers of astronomical knowledge, all before supper. More Later Barry ################### From: ASMJC@ASUACAD.BITNET Date: Fri, 30 Nov 90 15:39:37 MST XSubject: Re: Introductions >Utric Barry, yeah I figured the node thing. Both questioned utrics have "opposite leaves" as it were. I probably won't be convinced they are the same 'till I see flowers >Bubbles: AH! Barry, so, you have noticed those mysterious bubbles. It so happens that I saw a paper in the botany journals which may provide an answer to this confounding mystery. It seems some conclusive research has shown that plants (even Utricularia) will "consume" carbon dioxide. This is dissolved in the water. This CO2 is used in a funny process called photo- synthesis. Oxygen is a waste product of this photosynthesis! I am specul- ating that you have seen oxygen bubbles! Some say that all the world's oxygen comes from this process, but I wouldn't believe a word of that!! > Don Burden Hello out there! I am Michael Chamberland. I am a botany grad student in Tempe (suburb of Phoenix) at ASU. My research is on barrel cacti, but i grow cp as a hobby, and I am very fortunate to have some greenhouse space at the University for my plants. I have been growing cp since I was a freshman undergraduate at Uconn (University of Connecticut). I have been a cactus and succulent nut since junior high school. A year and half ago I moved out to the desert, and began to concentrate on growing CP because they offered more of a challange, they were faster growers, and they were harder to obtain (I would spend less). I now have a collection of about 70 or so CP species (I think). I have no real favorite genera, but most of my plants are Drosera. I am also a trekkie, an artist (BFA in painting), modern classical music nut, and more! But because I don't want this to sound like a bad personals ad, I won't dwell on that stuff. I contacted Barry before I moved to AZ. He wrote an article in the Carnivorous Plant Newsletter (CPN) on growing CP in AZ. We have been biting growing info for over a year, as well as trading plants. Rob Maharaj joined oour little discussion group about half a year ago I think, and it is nice to see it is growing! Well I gotta go now, Be Seeing You! MJC ################### From: ASMJC@ASUACAD.BITNET Date: Sat, 01 Dec 90 18:06:27 MST XSubject: Re: Introductions > Nepenthes Don, sounds nice. How do you maintain long Nepenthes vines under lights? Space is usually the biggest problem with Nepenthes in my experience, especially if you grow them in tanks, which you MUST do in Arizona (unless u have a real humid greenhouse- rare.) A number of my Nepenthes are getting rather large, but none have begun upper growth. Once they do I will be in a bit of a bind. They are confined to a 55 gal aquarium. Some of the favorites I grow are N. maxima, N. rafflesiana 'nivea', and N. ventricosa. I have not had much luck (or even much experimentation) with the tropical pings. I will try to bit you a file of my plant list. I am not a real computer wizard, so if the transfer fails I will resort to mail. Did you send your mailing address? Ah! I could just check CPN. I have dappled a bit with orchids. The University of Connecticut greenhouse, where I worked for 3 years wile I got my undergrad degree, has a spectacular collection. Thanks to an eccentric PhD. student of the orchidaceae, the greenhouse is well stocked with dwarf stuff, mostly Pleurothallis, Oncidiums, Bulbophyllums, etc... Every time I visit home I stop in and get a few cuttings. It is frustrating that so few are labeled! i am now growing about 20 little orchids. >Rob, I see from CPN that you are working on the D. spathulata complex. I have heard that this complex is actually a polyploid series which runs from a diploid spathulata up to an octoploid which is D. aliciae. Do the "varieties" of D. spathulata correspond to different ploidy levels? Is D. aliciae really just a high ploidy D. spathulata? Is it really deserving of species status if this is the case? Why the abrupt change in morphology in the octoploid? Have you talked with the psycho Whovian Drosera tracker thru time and space: John Degreef of Belgium? > Note: All of those of you who might be inclined to mess with colchicine, hoping to make giant flytraps: I have heard that giganism in polyploids is mostly confined to the reproductive structures. Thus polyploid blueberries and polyploid snapdragons are much bigger than normal, but the plant size is not changed so much. Moreover, successive ploidy increases to hexaploids and octoploids, etc. usually do not result in any greater enlargement of features. Sorry. MJC ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 90 01:07:44 mst Subject: CPS Don sez: >habitat of this plant, from what I've read. I liked D. auriculata and D. >peltata. These are two tuberous types, but they are quite easy to grow. >I didn't bother trying to put them into dormancy, but just kept them damp at >all times. They can be treated like an annual. When kept damp, they will >flower in a little more than a year, then just take the seeds and start >a new generation. Well, I've finally started to understand how to grow tuberous Drosera properly, and in the process killed off about 5 tubers and plenty of seedlings. You've had better luck than I, although I gather that the two species you're talking about are some of the easier ones (although I did manage to kill my auriculata!) I'd like to talk more, but I am being overwhelmed by mail right now. I have to get back to editting all this stuff, and making some sense out of it... P.S. Germinations from my D. coccicaulis, venusta, and admirabilis. B. gigantea seedlings (5) still alive, the largest is almost 1" tall. ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 90 01:36:44 mst Subject: Greetings Hello "CPer" (Sorry about this form letter format) You recently responded to my query in Rec.gardens or the ORCHID group. Well, here's some information that you might find valuable. Also, you might want to chat on the email lines with other CPers. The first three people on the email addresses below are for myself (Barry) and for two other "Old Hands" (Michael C. and Rob M.) Don is a new arrival to our group. We would love to chat CPs wi/you. You should feel free to contact any of us to chat, ask questions, tell us answers, etc. We do not have a formalized network or bulletin board set up, and as such just use email to communicate. dunwich@solpl.as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice), Tucson AZ USA asmjc@asuacad.bitnet (Michael Chamberland), Tempe AZ USA . maharaj@mcmaster.bitnet (Rob Maharajh), Hamilton Ont CANADA al423@cleveland.freenet.edu (Don Burden), New Albany, IN USA If any of you can't seem to get through at the above addresses, you can probably always reach me at barry@astro.as.arizona.edu. Anyway, I think that if you are at all interested in CPs, you should join a CP society near you. Certainly the most global is the International CP society (ICPS), but there are other smaller ones for Brits, Ozzies, etc. The ICPS newsletter (CPN) is published 4 times a year, averages about 30---60 colour glossy pages each, and is a non-refereed journal with articles submitted by readers. At $10/year (U.S.A./CANADA) and $15/year (Foreign) it is a good deal. The only problem with it is that right now it is about 6 months behind schedule, but that is a problem which is getting fixed very rapidly. The address to subscribe to is listed below. I would suggest that you also buy some back issues (see below for charges). This is valuable because CP growing is still in some stages of experimentation, as new plants are being discovered and introduced to cultivation, and the back issues can get you up to date. Of particular value is the 1989 volume, because it contains the membership list (or at least the names of those members who didn't mind appearing in such a list). This list is invaluable in "networking" with other growers. Since many of the CPs are endangered, it is obviously better to get plants from other growers than to tear them out of the ground (my sentiments). In addition to its other virtues, CPN contains good book/literature reviews (so you can get new literature about the Australian pygmy and tuberous sundews), and lists/addresses of commercial CP nurseries (so you can GET the pygmy and tuberous Droseras), and MUCH MUCH MORE!! No, I don't get a percentage for new members! :-) If you are interested in joining our growing (!) discussion group, maybe you might want to send out a note about yourself, and tell us what you're interested in, what you're growing, and what you're killing.:-) As the list of people interested in this discussion increases, I'll distribute the new addresses. To start the ball rolling, Let's talk about me, shall we? :-) I'm an astronomy grad student at the U. of Arizona, got my Undergrad training in Physics. I tip the scale at an old 27 years (was that noise my back, or my chair?). I've been growing CPs for several years, not including the times that I was a kid and killed my fair share of Venus Fly Traps (VFTs). Based in the Arizona lowland desert, I can grow nothing outdoors year round (although Michael C. might debate this). So, I either grow plants in terraria or in my homemade hobby greenhouse. At last look at my CP trading list, I see that I grow about 100 spp., or about 150 types of plants if you include subspecies, colour variants, etc. I don't really have a favourite group of plants. I'm keen on the North American Pitcher plants (Sarracenia), all sundews (Drosera, Byblis, Drosophyllum), Bladderworts (Utricularia), and Butterworts (Pinguicula). I also grow the obligatory VFTs, and about half a dozen different tropical pitcher plants (Nepenthes). I have never grown a Cobra lily (Darlingtonia) for more than 1 year, as I've always let them get too hot (conventional wisdom says that they need cool water constantly running over their roots----a REAL pain to grow in the desert!). Lately I have been getting pretty involved in understanding the taxonomy of Utrics, and enjoy hunting the plants that live in my area (yes, there's more than cacti and whirlwinds in AZ). I have dabbled only *slightly* in orchids, and am mostly kept from getting more involved in them by the fact that I suffer pretty high temperatures in Tucson. I am just idly learning about them for a while, to try to find out if I should get more involved. Your turn.... ################### From: ASMJC@ASUACAD.BITNET Date: Sun, 02 Dec 90 18:53:15 MST XSubject: Re: Greetings >10 Barry, Wow! 10 CP fanatics! Did they come from your introduction to the O.R.C.H.I.D.S. network, or from my bitblurb in CPN? It looks like you have been saddled with the job of telecommunications operator! >Utricularia inflexa Barry, my seeds aren't doing anything!! I planted them on the surface of the water as you suggested, and it has been 3 days. >Desert growing conditions Don, I now am growing most of my plants in a university greenhouse. It is coolled by airconditioning, and can be kept quite chilly year round. The temperature is actually set by the people doing legitimate research in the g-house. They are growing spinach as a source of chloroplasts. ( the idiots recently pumped up the temperature in the house. This may be bad for my cp if it gets too hot. Presumably those temps will also be bad for spinach, and they will turn down the thermostat.) I realize that when I graduate I will no longer have access to these facilities I also could be kicked out at any time if they decide they want more salad plants up there. Therefore I am experimenting w/ growing plants outside. The g-house air is already quite dry, and the move outdoors is not much of a shock. I have a number of rosette droseras (D. montana, D. natalensis, D. lovellae, etc. growing outdoors, their pots set in a tray of water. They are doing great. I have yet to see what will take it outdoors in the summer. I only started putting things outside 3 months ago. I am optimistic about growing pygmies and tuberous outside, but I have too few of the latter to spare. I am getting ready some pygmies which Barry gave me. They will go out when big enuf. >D. peltata I grew this for several years. It eventually died of shock after my move to AZ. It flowered at least once, but never set seed. It died back every year, but would come back from little red tubers left in the soil. The new tubers were often shoved by the dropper root to the bottom of the pot, even out the drainage hole sometimes. It would make daughter tubers too. >Nepenthes trade Sure Don, I'd be interested in trading Nepenthes. I don't have any of those which you mention. My list will indicate what I've got. Many of mine are too small to propagate, but N. khasiana, ventricosa, X hookeriana, gracilis, and gracilis X ampullaria are ones which I may be able to propagate by spring. Also, I will be going home for the holidays and will certainly spend time at the Uconn greenhouse. I should be able to get a good number of orchid cuttings (last time I rescued a huge Shomburkia clump which had just been chucked in the garbage! It was just an unwanted "extra"!) Ah, but this brings to mind a question: I have seen orchid "virus"; little spots on orchid leaves. I also have seen similar spots on Nepenthes leaves. Connection? What "is" the virus anyway? ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 18:38:40 mst XSubject: Re: Greetings >Utricularia inflexa >Barry, my seeds aren't doing anything!! I planted them on the surface of the >water as you suggested, and it has been 3 days. Give 'em a little more time. It took mine about a week, I think, and they were still germinating after a few more. Look for a tiny little green nub at the center of the floating seed. From the distinctive seed coat (using the stereomicroscope in the lab) I was able to narrow that plant down to about 9 possibilities (out of the 214 species!). My plants are now about 1.5" long, still too small to help with further I.D.s. I will keep you posted. >plant list Maybe I should modify a copy of mine to send over the email lines too... Paul Taylor (New Zealand) asked me about this too. >I have seen orchid "virus"; little spots on orchid leaves. I also >have seen similar spots on Nepenthes leaves. Connection? What "is" the virus >anyway? Mike, I've been reading a bit on Orchids, wondering if I should be so foolish as to become an "Orchid Farmer" (as I read someone referring to herself on the Orchid network). It seems that there are several viruses involved, i.e. Phaelenopsis virus, etc. Perhaps they are the same beast, just different hosts? Anyway, all the pictures of viral damage are characteristic....the scarring is in a ring. But hey, I'm v. new to orchids, and I don't know anything but CPs. >Barry, would you happen to have any D. capillaris white flower seed you >could spare? I would like to try seed germination out o doors. My >cappy whites are doing fine, but they don't seem to want to flower. They Uh, I don't think so. The plant is so invasive, it has a "no-flowers" rule on it in my Greenhouse. I do have live plants, though... Depending on when we next meet, I could send/give them to you along with pygmy gemmae. Paul Taylor emailed me, and said that an excellent thing to get from the Southern Hemisphere is Vol 1 and 2 from Allen L. Sorry Paul, we already have them! In fact, Allen is almost completely convinced that he will have to do his books in four volumes, and he's also thinking of doing a book on Stylidium, for those who might be interested. I think that since Allen sells mostly Drosera, he's not looking forward to the Utricularia part of his job ahead. Paul also emailed me a description of himself which I am now forwarding to all. I'm including a letter he mailed to me, with responses to some of my queries....MY response responses (whew!) are in (). Hope you don't get too confused trying to decipher this. :-) Paul, see if you can send direct to the others, see their addresses in the header to this letter. ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 18:38:40 mst Subject: Re: Hello Again >Hmm. Tell me about it. I'm only a member of the ICPS, and wonder if >I should stick my foot in the door of other societies. The address for the Victorian Carnivorous Plant Society is: Victorian Carnivorous Plant Society, C/- P.O. Box 8, Greensborough, Victoria, Australia, 3088 I'm not sure what the prices would be for overseas members (I don't think we have any), so it would be best to contact them directly. They've been in existance for around 7 years. Newsletters are published quarterly (roughly), and probably don't match up with the ICPS ones since we're only a small group of collectors. I'm sure they'd be very happy to receive some articles from growers such as yourself... :) >Good luck. I'm still trying to work out the right way to grow >B. gigantea myself. First thing is to get a germination! I've finally >gotten my fires (crackle crackle) right, and right now am nursing along >5 seedlings, the tallest is about 2.5cm tall. Part of the problem is >getting good seed. I got these from Allen Lowrie (of Duncraig, W. Aust.) Our lone Byblis is the only surviving seedling from 3 seedlings (from a packet of around 12 seeds), so you're germination problems are pretty typical. Quite a few seedlings die because they lack a good root system (overwatering perhaps?) They are also very fragile, so be careful when you HAVE to water them. BE MEAN with them! Another problem is getting the pollen to be released so that we can produce seed. According to Adrian Slack's book, a tuning fork is needed to simulate an insect's wings, but I haven't got this to work yet. The plant is now around 30 inches high, and shows no sign of stopping! It has been in flower for several months. Near the base of the plant were the old leaves have died back, a small side shoot with around 5 leaves is growing - hopefully this can be removed to produce a second plant. (Paul---bear in mind that Slack's books are written by a grower in the UK, and might be best for people growing plants in dank climates. His instructions on Drosophyllum culture are infinitely more complex than they have to be for Arizona growers, for example. Maybe in his climate, the anthers don't dry sufficiently?---B) >Nice selection. I have a lot of plants myself. I've always got extras, >and if you want can send you plenty of fresh seed of many species. If >you are interested, I can send you my plant list (hardcopy). If so, >tell me your address... Due to quarantine requirements in Australia, I think only seed can be sent without a long isolation period. Could you send your list (or a selection from it) via e-mail? With the Christmas rush, the mail would take a LONG time to get here ... > I get the impression that S. purpurea purpurea f. heterophylla >is easy to come by in your neck of the globe. Oddly enough, it is >VERY difficult to get in the USA. Do you have any contacts with people >who might have some extras of those, seeds or otherwise? I'm a real >purist as to Sarrs, and am interested in pure strains...hybrids are >less interesting to me. I have specimens of all the Sarr spp. and >subspecies, and am now playing the game of hunting down nice colour >variants... S. purp purp hetero and S. leucophylla alba still elude >me. Of course, I haven't even scratched the surface of the many >flava variants, although I have about 8+ colour forms...! I don't have S. purp purp hetero or leucophylla alba. They might be available but I can't guarantee anything! I have a minor Giant, some alata "Red Throat" seedlings (no red throats yet ...), and a "flava red form". I don't know whether these forms are pure or not - one "flava" we bought appears to be a flava x rubra hybrid of some description! Some rubra jonesii seeds we bought also contained mostly minor hybrids, with some seedlings that appear to be the real thing. I would suspect that you would be more likely to get pure strains in the US. ################### From: rphjt@minyos.xx.rmit.EDU.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 18:38:40 mst Subject: Re: Greetings Greetings from Australia! >If you are interested in joining our growing (!) discussion group, maybe >you might want to send out a note about yourself, and tell us what >you're interested in, what you're growing, and what you're killing.:-) >As the list of people interested in this discussion increases, I'll >distribute the new addresses. I've just completed the final(?) year of a Bachelor of Applied Science in Computer Science here at R.M.I.T. (not to be confused with M.I.T. in the states!). I've been growing CP's for around 8 or 9 years, after discovering Adrian Slack's book "Carnivorous Plants" in the library at the technical school I went to (year 7-11, year 12 at high school to get my HSC/VCE for entry into university). My collection of plants consists mostly of Sarracenias (except oreophylla), native and other Droseras, some Albany pitcher plants (Cephalotus), a flowering Byblis gigantea, VFT's, several terrestrial Utricularias, some Cobra Lilies, a couple of Nepenthes (surviving, but not thriving), some Pinguiculas and a Polypomphlox tenella (renaming it Utricularia tenella was a bad move in my books :) I'm also a member of the Victorian Carnivorous Plant Society, which is a small group with big ambitions, having secured some areas in botanic gardens for CP's and trying to get more! I will most likely be joining the ICPS next year. +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul Taylor [Falcon] Victoria University of Technology (RMIT) | | s882080@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au Melbourne, Australia. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ################### From: MJC Date: Tue, 04 Dec 90 11:48:17 MST Subject: Hehhe! CP teleconferencing >Paul Taylor I got your message, hmm do you prefer to go by the name "Falcon"? This may actually be benifical, as the cp world seems to be rife with both "Pauls" and "Taylors". (Barry, I know yet ANOTHER cp Taylor: Daryl Taylor in Connecticut. He is just getting into CP.) MJC ################### From: mjc Date: Tue, 04 Dec 90 12:23:01 MST Subject: U.subulata Barry; just what is the story about U. subulata and its cleistogamous "forms"?? I have a race of subulata which flowers rarely, but when it does it makes a long flower stalk with good sized yellow flowers. I also have some plants (not associated w/ the first) which have smaller, thinner leaves. These flower more often, and are cleistogomites. Some very tiny, crumpled (but white) petals sit on the top of the ovary. These are shed fast. The cleistogomites have very small flower stalks which look like Funeria sporophytes (moss spore cases) often these flower stalks are single-flowered, or they may branch and have 3-4 flowers. the stalks rarely reach 2 inches high. i just noticed they make seed. and how does U. juncea fit into this?? MJC ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 20:22:50 mst XSubject: Re: U.subulata Paul wrote: >This is a test message from Australia - NZ is a few hundred kms that way -> My apologies, Paul. Y'know, I close my eyes for ONE scaled INSTANT of time, and NZ and AU are separate, and Alaska is no longer attached to the Soviet Union. Next thing you know, India will go plowing into Asia! Damned Continental drift! >I've just send off for some plant/seed lists from Allen Lowrie, Fred Howell >(my usual mail order plant supplier in South Australia) and a local company >called Plantastic, who I haven't tried before. I'll let you know about any >"goodies" they might have. Although many of us have dealt with Allen, these others are unfamiliar to at least me..... Do Tell! >Rica Erickson has published a few books: "Orchids of the West" (1951), >"Plants of Prey" (1968) and "Triggerplants" (1958). I have the later two P. of Prey is in fact sold out. I'm picking one up, along with books by Kondo, if I ever see them. They are pretty hard to find these days. I know that Allen used to sell Tuberous Orchids. Maybe he will... Of course, maybe he is relying heavily on this botanist Marchant for some things, and might be too much alone on the orchids. Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way belittling Allen, just trying to second guess him. I'll ask him in my next letter to him. Mike wrote: >Barry; just what is the story about U. subulata and its cleistogamous >"forms"?? I have a race of subulata which flowers rarely, but when it >and how does U. juncea fit into this?? For those who may be unfamiliar with this terminology, Mike described the situation nicely. Chasmogamous flowers are the familiar type... petals, sepals, etc. Cleistogamous flowers are ones in which the flowers never open, but instead fertilize themselves, produce seed, at which point the flower opens. Cleistogamous flowers often look like little globes. The Utrics juncea and subulata (as well as some others) form both types of flowers. In fact, a species (I think virgatula or something like that) was found to be just a cleist. form of subulata. Both cleist. and chasmo. flowers can be found on the same inflorescence (although I have never observed this). I think that what the plant will produce depends on the culture. A happier plant will produce chasmo flowers. I once sowed seed from cleisto plants, and got a pot full of plants (also cleisto). However, later in the season, the plants started to produce chasmo flowers... I think that it is just environment. Incidentally, remember that subulata is pan-tropical, so expect variations. Perhaps some are more likely to be cleisto than others. Also, juncea can produce semi-cleistogamous flowers. The flowers are much reduced, with a prominet spur. All said and done, I've got a plant in my culture that I THINK is juncea, but it has never produced anything other than cleisto flowers (odd) so I am watching it separately for further developments... Incidentally, as far as I can tell (from Peter Taylor's monograph and the papers you sent me, by Kondo), U. cornuta is NEVER cleisto. Consider that a helpful hint when keying between juncea and cornuta. Cleistogamy is an interesting development, esp. since Utric, Ping, and Sarr. flowers are designed (interesting choice of verb!) so as to avoid self pollination, yet perhaps in less happy conditions the plant throws that to the wind? Oh, I pointed out to Paul McMillian that subulata in my culture is chasmo *almost* exclusively when it is growing in live sphagnum...perhaps that is how it likes it. BAMR ################### From: s882080@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (Paul Taylor [Falcon]) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 14:50:53 +1100 Subject: Pygmy sundew official names ... One problem with the second volume of Allen Lowrie's series is that the newly named pygmy sundew species and hybrids don't mention what the old names were! I have a lovely colony of D. "Lake Badgerup" (seems to be very popular) but haven't been able to positively match it with any of the plants in the book. My plants are similar to D. nitidula subsp. omissa x D. occidentalis subsp. occidentalis (page 106 - it does mention that it is found at Lake Badgerup), but tends to have four petalled flowers with the occassional five petalled one. The gemmae don't really look like those in the book either, although my microscope isn't particularly good. I think that my D. arcturi seeds that my parents collected in Tasmania have finally germinated after a YEAR or so, but it's too early to tell. The seeds were refridgerated over winter and sowed in the usual peat-sand mix, and had been passed off as duds. A couple of days ago I noticed some tiny sundew seedlings in the trays, which don't look like any of the other sundews I have. More details as they come to hand ... ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 18:41:04 mst XSubject: Re: Pygmy sundew official names ... Peter wrote: >Subject: Pygmy sundew official names ... >One problem with the second volume of Allen Lowrie's series is that the newly >named pygmy sundew species and hybrids don't mention what the old names I know what you mean. I found this to be a little annoying myself. I did verify with Allen that the plant "Lake Badgerup" IS in fact D. nitidula omissa X occidentalis occidentalis. The plant is a little variable. I was given a single specimen of this plant about 3 years ago, and have propagated it by gemmae to hundreds of genetically identical clones. In this perfectly controlled environment, I have observed flowers with 4 or 5 petals, and 4 or 5 red style/stigmas. One flower had 6 style/stigmas! The inflorescences are usually single flowered, but this year (in a deeper pot than in previous years) almost all of the inflorescences were many flowered. All from the same genetic formula! >five petalled one. The gemmae don't really look like those in the book >either although my microscope isn't particularly good. After examining about a dozen species of gemmae under a very high quality stereo-microscope, I've come to the conclusion that the gemmae drawings are only useful in eliminating a few possibilities. Maybe more practice.... Until then, I'm sticking to flower and petiole/lamina morphology as keys! Incidentally, Gordon Snelling published (in CPN) the conversions of the old pygmy names to the new ones. If you want, I, or Mike (Nudge nudge) could email off the correct names. >I think that my D. arcturi seeds that my parents collected in Tasmania >have finally germinated after a YEAR or so, but it's too early to tell. >The seeds were refridgerated over winter and sowed in the usual >peat-sand mix, and had been passed off as duds. A couple of days ago I >noticed some tiny sundew seedlings in the trays, which don't look like >any of the other sundews I have. More details as they come to hand ... Ooh ooh! I've had arcturi seeds sitting around for about a year too, and NOTHING. I've also HEAVILY stratified some, and even FROZE others. Nothing yet. I wish you luck! Peter, you know, I think that I do agree with you that Polypompholyx shouldn't be reduced to subgeneric status. U. tenella and U. multifida are the only two Utrics with four calyx lobes, and the traps are different, although there IS an interesting variation in the types of traps in other Utrics. Still, I will bow to TAYLOR here (as he grumbled). :-) Oh, some final words on chasmogamy/cleistogamy in Utrics. First off, U. virgulata was a name for cleistogamous juncea, not subulata. But, the same mistake was made for subulata. In fact, a separate GENUS was once proposed for U. subulata in the cleistogamous state! Anyway, TAYLOR (Peter's 1988 monograph, not Paul!) says that when cleistogamous, subulata's reduced or crumpled petals can also be WHITE or REDDISH. Sounds like your plant, huh Mike? I got Allen's catalogue today. I was sorry to see that he has raised his prices some. Petiolaris complex now $26.50 (AU), gemmae now $8 (AU), etc. Seed packets are still $3. Tubers a bit more expensive, too. I think I might get some U. menziesii from him, and also a few tubers, but I don't know about those petiolaris plants... ################### From: s882080@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (Paul Taylor [Falcon]) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 13:27:13 +1100 XSubject: Re: Pygmy sundew official names ... >I know what you mean. I found this to be a little annoying myself. I >did verify with Allen that the plant "Lake Badgerup" IS in fact >D. nitidula omissa X occidentalis occidentalis. The plant is a little >variable. I was given a single specimen of this plant about 3 years >ago, and have propagated it by gemmae to hundreds of genetically >identical clones. In this perfectly controlled environment, I have >observed flowers with 4 or 5 petals, and 4 or 5 red style/stigmas. >One flower had 6 style/stigmas! The inflorescences are usually single >flowered, but this year (in a deeper pot than in previous years) almost >all of the inflorescences were many flowered. All from the same genetic >formula! Have you got a Geiger counter handy? ;-) Of the 20 open flowers on my colony, three have five petals - all have four style/stigmas. (One looks as if it has left space for a fifth petal, but only four petals are present). >Ooh ooh! I've had arcturi seeds sitting around for about a year too, and >NOTHING. I've also HEAVILY stratified some, and even FROZE others. >Nothing yet. I wish you luck! Patience seems to be the key. Since my seed was *fresh* and took a year to germinate, I'd expect older seed to take longer. Being an alpine plant would probably tend to make it slower growing too. You could try a little heat treatment to try and trigger the seeds to germinate - 25 to 30 celsius should be close to what they would experience in the wild. >Peter, you know, I think that I do agree with you that Polypompholyx >shouldn't be reduced to subgeneric status. U. tenella and U. multifida >are the only two Utrics with four calyx lobes, and the traps are >different, although there IS an interesting variation in the types of >traps in other Utrics. Still, I will bow to TAYLOR here (as he >grumbled). :-) It seems such a pity to abandon such a great name as Polypomphlox ... I'm sure there are examples of genera being distinguished on lesser details than this. Out of curiosity, has anyone attempted an intergeneric hybrid between, for example, Sarracenia and Darlingtonia? Such hybrids were viewed to be "impossible" for orchids not too long ago, but are now commonplace. >Anyway, TAYLOR (Peter's 1988 monograph, not Paul!) says that when >cleistogamous, subulata's reduced or crumpled petals can also >be WHITE or REDDISH. Sounds like your plant, huh Mike? My subulata has the white cleistogamous flowers. Before reading about such flowers here, I had passed them off as "duds". Is cleistogamy a genetic trait or is it environmental? ################### From: mjc Date: Thu, 06 Dec 90 12:19:52 MST Subject: stuff variability in Drosera X lake Badgerup You can expect more variablity out of a hybrid. ESPECIALLY if you grow em from selfed seed (Barry, recall the D. X californica conversation we had a long time ago). Gemmae is a differ- ent story, but you can still expect funny stuff even there if you get crossing-over in mitosis (I guess). >Allan raises prices. Oh well, anyway, he has set loose those petiolaris in the states now. Expect (hope) them to circulate here! They seem to be fairly easy to prop from leaf cuttings. And I think if people still have mucho problems with it here, then it can stay in Australia! MJC ################### From: mjc Date: Thu, 06 Dec 90 12:34:12 MST Subject: sarr X darl >ARCTURI I couldn't grow it from seed either. >Sarracenia X Darlingtonia No can do. They have different chromosome numbers. I am not sure what they are doing with orchids, but I can bet it ain't any spittin distance close to natural! MJC ################### From: s882080@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (Paul Taylor [Falcon]) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 90 11:42:32 +1100 Subject: Re: Hybrids >No can do. They have different chromosome numbers. I am not sure what they >are doing with orchids, but I can bet it ain't any spittin distance close to >natural! > MJC The most likely reason why some genera of orchids can be hybridized with other genera is that they are very close genetically, but LOOK different enough to justify the different genera groups. Even within genera there is a large variation in appearance of plants. I was thinking that Polypomphlox could be proved to be different to Utricularia by seeing if a Utric. X Poly. hybrid could be made, but in light of orchid hybrids, it might not be rigid enough. (Are there any Utric. X Utric. hybrids? ------------- The latest Victorian CP Society newsletter mentions a possible new CP, Martynia fragrans. "This shrubby stands perhaps 50cm high, has wavy-edged Geranium-like leaves and purple flowers with white and yellow throats vaguely resembling those of Pinguicula. The whole plant (both sides of leaves, stems, and all flower parts including petals) is covered thickly in very short hairs (midway in size between those of Pinguicula and Drosera) each topped by a drop of sticky dew. Numerous small midge-sized flies and other insects had been trapped all over the plant I [Nick Ward] saw at Oxford [England]. Clearly, this description suggests that the plant may well be carnivorous. At the time of my visit [1987] this was yet to be investigated." According to an old gardening book I have, this plant is native to Mexico, Arizona (hi guys! :-), Brazil and North America. Two other species are listed, M. louisiana ("Unicorn Plant") and M. lutea ("Yellow Martynia"), which may or may not have the same features as M. fragrans. It might be interesting to get hold of this plant to see if it IS carnivorous (although sticky dew isn't an end-all determinant of being carnivorous, as in the case of Roridula). Some other interesting Aussie plants are the Greenhood orchids (Pterostylis). These are terrestrial orchids that flower in late Winter-Spring, dying back to a dormant tuber over summer. The leaves are uninteresting, and it is easy to miss the plants in the wild if they are not in flower. The flowers ARE interesting - some species look similar to a Cephalotus or Nepenthes pitcher on a stalk (but much smaller). Some have a much larger hood that hangs down over the entrance, while others have a "beard" sticking out from the entrance. Inside the "pitcher", a touch sensitive stylis(?) knocks any insect climbing into the flower against pollen on the back wall, much like the trigger mechanism used by Stylidium. Plants are probably difficult or impossible to obtain overseas (they're are'n't showy enough for most orchid enthusiasts), but probably could be obtained here as dormant tubers. ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 90 18:43:24 mst XSubject: Re: Hybrids Paul writes: >probably tend to make it slower growing too. You could try a little heat >treatment to try and trigger the seeds to germinate - 25 to 30 celsius should >be close to what they would experience in the wild. I never thought of specifically doing a warm (or heat) treatment on cold growing plants, although I naturally do that during the summer months when they are in the toasty greenhouse. >there are examples of genera being distinguished on lesser details than this. Oh, let me correct something. There is a third type of Utric with four calyx lobes, and this is sort of interesting. It has four calyx lobes, two of which are reduced in size. Secondly, the traps on this plant are somewhat intermediate between the Polypompholyx and "normal" Utricularia type subgenera. Sort of a "missing link" but not missing! This plant, U. westonii, is the only plant in its subgenera. >flowers here, I had passed them off as "duds". Is cleistogamy a >genetic trait or is it environmental? I don't know any more than I've already speculated. I will add one more bit, though. Usually my chasmogamous inflorescences are many flowered, are long (up to about 30cm), and tend to flop over after the first 15 cm or so. My cleistogamous inflorescences have fewer flowers (one to about 7), and are short (about 5cm) and erect. The pot of plants that I sowed from seeds from cleistogamous seeds produced cleist and then chasmo inflorescences, but the chasmo infl. were short, erect, and few flowered. Sort of an intermediate case. By petiolaris complex, I mean petiolaris, dilato-petiolaris, falconeri, and various forms of the above. He sells em in bunches of four. So that price gives you four plants (all the same species :-(). In the past I've gone in with Mike, and we've taken two plants each. >The most likely reason why some genera of orchids can be hybridized >with other genera is that they are very close genetically, but LOOK >different enough to Now, Mike might blow me out of the water on this one, but let's suppose that in filling ecological niches, it is important for a species to avoid hybridizing with other species (plausibility argument: species that are more likely to remain "pure" are less likely to blend into oblivion wi/other species). We all know that Sarracenia can hybridize, but that there may be leaky methods to avoid this as much as possible....i.e. different flower size, colour, fragrance, flowering times can all attract different pollinators. Throw in different ranges for each plant and voila! Different species. Now, if Orchids of different genera have different ranges or are VERY selective in terms of their pollinators (which they most certainly are), perhaps it is unnecessary for them to be unable to cross pollinate because the possibility for that is neatly blocked by these other factors. I know that this is a hopelessly anthropomorphic perspective, but one which intrigues me. Silly Idea: The biological niche which has not been filled. Imagine a plant which genetically is almost a clean slate, with all recessive traits. Now, this plant could hybridize with anything, obtain those characteristics, and then colonize the new ecological niche. Now, it would need a mechanism in which it could maintain it's own genetic identity, but that is an exercise left to the reader. >Are there any Utric. X Utric. hybrids Not verified, although some are suspected. Given that some Pings can, I bet it could be done. >The latest Victorian CP Society newsletter mentions a possible new CP, >Martynia fragrans. "This shrubby stands perhaps 50cm high, has >wavy-edged This is interesting. I know that Martynia lutea is suspected of being a CP, and that other species are also suspected. There are three genera of plants, Martynia, Proboscidea, and Ibiscella, which I think may eventually be combined into one genus. I have grown Proboscidea parviflora, and can attest to its sticky midge catching leaves. I was not convinced that this plant was a CP---the dead midges did not get the steamrolled look that you see with bugs eaten by Pings. They just looked stuck and dead. Two (possibly more?) spp. of Proboscidea are weeds in the Tucson area, and are even grown by some Native Americans as a food crop. Also, Martynia/Ibiscella/Proboscidea lutea is NOT native to this part of the world, regardless of what you have read (or as erroneously mentioned in the egotistical THE CARNIVOROUS PLANTS by Juniper, Robins, and Joel). It is an introduced WEED from South America. >I noticed on your plant lists Catopsis berteroniana ... What is it? You should join ICPS. In CPN we have been told that there are two, possibly three CP bromeliads. One, Catopsis berteroniana, is an epiphyte native to Florida, USA. It catches bugs in the slippery nooks of its leaves. The other one(s?) is Brocchinea reducta (and possibly B. tatei). These catch bugs in the center well of the plant. I'm not sure that I spelled the genus right... They are native to S. America, on and around the Tepuis. >Some other interesting Aussie plants are the Greenhood orchids (Pterostylis). >These are terrestrial orchids that flower in late Winter-Spring, dying back >Plants are probably difficult or impossible to obtain overseas (they're >aren't showy enough for most orchid enthusiasts), but probably could be >obtained here as dormant tubers. Allen Lowrie used to sell these. I'm not too interested yet. I have my arms full wi/CPs! ************************ Mike writes: >variability in Drosera X lake Badgerup > You can expect more variablity out >of a hybrid. ESPECIALLY if you grow em from selfed seed (Barry, recall the >D. X californica conversation we had a long time ago). Gemmae is a differ- Really? Does this apply to a population of genetically identical plants? I could see the case for variation in the F1 population from plant to plant, but all from the same plant (barring mutations in gemmae production)? I have never gotten any seed from my Badgerups. In fact, pygmaea is the only one I've gotten to germinate from seed, although I've had plenty of seed production from pulchella. I doubt you can self Badgerup. **************************** News from my Greenhouse: My D. erythrorhiza erythrorhiza (my only tuberous D) is colouring up very nicely. It hasn't caught any bugs, so I think that I'm going to start feeding it some so that it has a nice full tuber! My plant is about 1" in diameter. My B. gigantea plants (5) and my D. regia (1) seedligs continue to enlarge. My babies. I am pleased to see that the alleged "U. reticulata" is forming an inflorescence. If it flowers successfully I can play with TAYLOR a bit. I have some U. striata (aquatic) growing well. Mike grows it as a free floating aquatic, and I'm growing mine in a submerged pot. It is interesting that Mike's plants mostly have one type of submerged stem, that is, with scattered bladders. My plants are more dimorphic. I have branches completely devoid of bladders, and other branches with only bladders and no leaves. What is more, the bladderless branches reach up to the water surface, while the bladdery branches curve back down (or are horizontal at most), presumably looking for more substrate. I am convinced that this plant wants substrate in which to grow, and to prove my point, will make a gentlemen's wager!!! Even though Mike is better at growing aquatics than I, I bet that my plants will flower within 8 months, and that Mike's will not! Mind you, Mike's biomass of this species is about 10X mine! Am I cocky, or what?! :-) :-) Care to take me up on it, Mike? Mike, you were wondering about how humid CPs like it? Well, in my greenhouse at night the humidity is in the 70---80% range, but (if I trust my hygrometer) during the day it is only 28%!!! I am sort of amazed, and wouldn't think that my plants would make it there, but I consider the length of my plant list proof. Of course, Nepenthes are not in my G-house. ################### From: mjc Date: Thu, 06 Dec 90 18:11:29 MST Subject: shrubbies >"this shrubby" We have several kinds of shrubbies in AZ, including at least one sp. of Martinya. They are rather common, but because they do not grow where my research plants do, I have never seen a live one. The last I heard, they were proposing only one species to be cp, and that doesn't grow here. (still if I find some, I probably should try growing it: talk about growing plants outside!) I think it is an annual. >orchids Yeah, I knew that much about them. Seems that orchid flowers are so specific to particular pollinators, they never had to develop any pollen- recognition system like other plants have. They just never naturally get any pollen from other species. Now when man comes around, he crosses everything (Sarracenia enthusiasts take note!) >Catopsis is a bromeliad. Fairly decent proof that it is carnivorous I guess. It looks alot like an ordinary (but drab) tank bromeliad. The water-filled leaf cone acts as a pitcher. See it in CPN. Barry, last I heard, you were so unimpressed by this plant, you gave yours away. You get another one back? MJC ################### From: s882080@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (Paul Taylor [Falcon]) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 90 21:36:22 +1100 XSubject: Re: shrubbies >Paul writes: >>probably tend to make it slower growing too. You could try a little >>heat treatment to try and trigger the seeds to germinate - 25 to 30 >>celsius should be close to what they would experience in the wild. > > >I never thought of specifically doing a warm (or heat) treatment on >cold growing plants, although I naturally do that during the summer >months when they are in the toasty greenhouse. That's what I had in mind (original note was a bit vague). I can't think of anything special I did to get them to germinate, although the pots might have been left unwatered a couple of times... >Oh, let me correct something. There is a third type of Utric with >four calyx lobes, and this is sort of interesting. It has four >calyx lobes, two of which are reduced in size. Secondly, the traps >on this plant are somewhat intermediate between the Polypompholyx and >"normal" Utricularia type subgenera. Sort of a "missing link" but not >missing! This plant, U. westonii, is the only plant in its subgenera. A "missing" hybrid perhaps? >Now, if Orchids of different genera have different ranges or are >VERY selective in terms of their pollinators (which they most certainly >are), perhaps it is unnecessary for them to be unable to cross pollinate >because the possibility for that is neatly blocked by these other >factors. I know that this is a hopelessly anthropomorphic >perspective, but one which intrigues me. Your second point (selective pollinators) is correct in general. In fact, many orchids are so specific as to the insect that pollenates them that the extinction of that insect will cause them to also become extinct. As you say, this ensures that the species will only fertilize plants of the same species (unless an orchid grower gets in first!), but is a pretty risky system. >This is interesting. I know that Martynia lutea is suspected of being >a CP, and that other species are also suspected. There are three >genera of plants, Martynia, Proboscidea, and Ibiscella, which I think >may eventually be combined into one genus. I have grown Proboscidea >parviflora, and can attest to its sticky midge catching leaves. I >was not convinced that this plant was a CP---the dead midges did not >get the steamrolled look that you see with bugs eaten by Pings. An alternative to carnivorous use of the sticky dew is to trap any pests (e.g. aphids) that might try to feed on the plant. Drosera etc. may have had ancestors that used such a system, then developed a means of using the traps insects for its own benefit. According to Robert Gassin of the VCPS, trials where Drosera have been excluded from external sources of bacteria seemed to get very little benefit from trapped insects. It seems that air-borne bacteria are the source of enzymes in the mucilage, but it is not known if the bacteria get anything from the relationship. >possibly three CP bromeliads. One, Catopsis berteroniana, is an >epiphyte native to Florida, USA. It catches bugs in the slippery nooks >of its leaves. The other one(s?) is Brocchinea reducta (and possibly >B. tatei). These catch bugs in the center well of the plant. I'm >not sure that I spelled the genus right... They are native to S. >America, on and around the Tepuis. I've heard of Brocchinia reducta, but not the others. I saw a program about some crazy parachutists that landed on top of one of the Tepuis (and were going to jump off again), which showed great stands of Brocchinia, along with the Utricularia (by colour, I would guess U. quelchii, but U. nelumbifolia and U. humboldtii are known to live in Brocchinia also) that lives in them. The flowers on them were HUGE. >News from my Greenhouse: > > My B. gigantea plants (5) and my D. regia (1) seedligs continue >to enlarge. My babies. Slime "ate" my D. regia seedling (sounds like a B-grade Sci Fi movie :-) A new addition to my glasshouse is a Drosera adelae. It wasn't very sticky when I bought it, but looked healthy, and had several side shoots and is in flower. After being put inside the fish tank INSIDE the glasshouse with my two Nepenthes, it is looking very happy. There is about 2" of water underneath, but not touching, the pots which keeps the Nepenthes happy all year without heating. They aren't very big, but are getting slightly bigger each year, which is a good sign. ################### From: mjc Date: Fri, 07 Dec 90 12:49:17 MST Subject: hybrids Sarracenia species identity: The species were probably geographically isolated when they evolved. Man's influence (disrupting water flow, and just trampling around alot) may have brought more into premature contact, or they may have just bumped into eachother naturally. >Genetically identical population of D. X Badgerups: Even one F1 (which is genetically identical to itself (!) will make a mess of variable offspring if selfed. >Auquatic utric flowers. Hmm, would you care to take up the wager if I give my own plants a substrate? It would be worth doing to get flowers (I could press them for our herbarium). I would be most interested in flowering the unidentifies one. Would substrate encourage flowering in radiata or inflata? >Humidity This is interesting! 20% is about what we have outdoors normally isn't it? I secretly suspect that some terrestrial Nepenthes could take low humidity also, but who's gonna experiment? ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 90 18:25:16 mst XSubject: Re: hybrids Paul writes: >very little benefit from trapped insects. It seems that air-borne >bacteria are the source of enzymes in the mucilage, but it is not known >if the bacteria get This is surprising to me. I know about these arguments with Sarrs, but I didn't even think about tie-ins to other genera. >A new addition to my glasshouse is a Drosera adelae. It wasn't very sticky And if it is at least an average clone, it will get bigger, and bigger, and send out roots to colonize more plants, and more.....it is as bad as a Utric! >Barry, last I heard, you were so unimpressed by this plant, you gave yours >away. You get another one back? I had two. >Auquatic utric flowers. Hmm, wud u care to take up the wager if I give >my own plants a substrate? It would be worth doing to get flowers (I could Nah. I was just being cocky. By all means, tuck some into a substrate. I would suggest that you find a branch that is most bladdery, and submerge that. Keep other stuff floating as a control. Don't forget to do this to your gibba, too. >unidentifies one. Would substrate encourage flowering in radiata or inflata? I doubt it. Both of these species are suspended aquatics in nature. Just let 'em float like they expect. Incidentally, something very strange seems to be going on with my radiata, but I won't tell you yet (you wouldn't believe it anyway). I'll tell you that it's NOT flowering, or anything else you might suspect. Really weird. >Humidity and Nepenthes I have some N. X williamsii growing OUT of a terrarium at my office, and it still continues to pitcher very nicely. My office is dry. Mike: I think that the hybrid you gave me long ago as N. X hookeriana is certainly NOT that plant. The breeding of hookeriana is rafflesiana X ampullaria, and there are pictures of it in Slack's two books. The hybrid we have is all wrong. I WILL grant you that it has some rafflesiana, but it is more complex. I have just gotten back from the photo lab one of the best macro photographs that I have ever taken. It is a great shot of D.indica. I think that I may send it out to be published in CPN. Allen's catalogue, incidentally, has an interesting Utric listed. He just has it listed as "U. species, Taylor 70003 in The Genus Utric, p104." Well, I opened my copy of TAYLOR to p104, and found the reference. Apparently, there is a population of plants a bit SE of Perth, individuals of which look like U. inaequalis, and others look like violacea, and others range nicely between these extremes. It is a bit more complicated than that, but I haven't the time to enter it all. This is a location where TAYLOR suggests that we may be seeing a hybrid swarm. ################### From: mjc Date: Mon, 10 Dec 90 12:41:47 MST Subject: nepenthes >N. X hookeriana. Yeah, I got the id on this from the label in the pot at Uconn. The plant was purchased from a local nursery. But expect variation in this hybrid too! Especially take into consideration the variablity which already exists in the parent species! It still could be an F1. I thinks these hybrids are made very infrequently, and they obviuosly don't self. >N. X williamsii Low humidity tolerant?! Very interesting. IGOR! Start de expereementz!! >Martinya Barry, I din't know you grew this. Do tell more. I substrated a cutting of U. striata and the unknown utric. A few weeks ago I accidently spilled some distilled water on my P. lusitanicum I poured it out of the pot fast but the damage was done. At least half the little plants rotted. Talk about finiky! they must only grow in the Spanish dry season?! Barry: a P. primuliflora and Drosera "retching-Gary" have been outside for a week and like it. MJC Barry, about Utrics and substrate: How do they KNOW they have a substrate? How can they sense it? Why do they care? Why does it make them flower? ARRG. MJC ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 90 16:57:48 mst XSubject: Re: nepenthes Mike: No go on the N. madagascarensis seed. I went over it with a fine toothed comb, and there was nothing even remotely resembling seed in it. I talked with my bro about it, and he said that the fellow in Madagas. was a ZOOLOGIST, and probably didn't know anything. However, another trip is in the works... I think that the disputed N. hookeriana is so different from what you might expect from a raffXamp hybrid as to make the ID on this plant *extremely* unlikely. I'm just going to refer to it as a raff hybrid. Sure, raff has a lot of variation, but ampullaria seems pretty constant. Every picture of amp looks the same, with colour and size being the only variables. Regarding the Proboscidea/Martynia/Ibiscella, I got some seeds from a Tucson seed bank that specializes in native food crops or craft related plants. I can get lots of seed for anybody that wants 'em, for about $1 a packet. Didn't I show you the plant out by the entrance to my yard when you came to visit? Sorry to hear about the P. lusitanicum. That is strange that they were so delicate. I have wondered myself about why U. striata cares about having a substrate. Is it possible that some aquatics need some solid orientation? They have evolved to fit a niche, and are probably only happiest when they are in it. CPs live in nutrient poor environments, and if you try to put them in a "better" environment (i.e. fertilize), they die. At times, plants are strange and inexplicable things. Arrgh! I am so irritated with myself! Gordon sent me eleven species of pygmies, as gemmae. On the way to the greenhouse, the pots all shifted around, name tags got mixed up!!! After some irritating and what should have been unneccesary detective work, I still have about 5 species that I haven't sorted out yet! ARRRRGGH! Actually, it turned out to be a good thing that I plant 3 species/pot, as that helped sort some things out. Still, I will have to wait for about a year now.... DOES ANYONE FERTILIZE THEIR TUBEROUS DROSERA? WHAT DO THEY USE? I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW BRAND NAME, AND DILUTION. ALSO, I WANT TO KNOW THE NUTRIENT TYPE, I.E. 10-10-10 OR WHATEVER. ALSO, INFO LIKE ``ORCHID FERTILIZER'' OR ``AFRICAN VIOLET'' WOULD BE GREAT. Oh, *Paul*. I have a Question for you. Up in Northern Australia, in the Darwin and Kununurra regions, what are the summer/winters like. In particular, I know that for the tuberous Drosera range (West. Aust.), you have hot, dry summers and cool, moist winters (or so I am told). Up north, is the rainy season during the summer or the winter? I want to know how I should treat my D. petiolaris `Kununurra.' I figure that Australia is a small continent, so you should know all the climatic regions like the back of your hand! Lots of D. glanduligera coming up... I'm keeping the pot FAR from my D. burmannii pot, to avoid contamination. Why doesn't anybody seem to like this plant (glanduligera)? Poor little guy. Barry P.S. Gordon also sent me his form of D. calycifida `sp. Venezuela', U. sp. Japan, and a Nepenthes hybrid of unknown lineage. ################### From: mjc Date: Wed, 12 Dec 90 13:41:29 MST Subject: stuff XXXVIXXX When I saw Gordon's N. ampularia, I was shocked to see how different it was from mine. Could be some back-hybrids floating around... Why do everone hate D. glanduligera?? you have a short memory Barry! (or you're just so very sweet and forgiving!) I haven't the foggiest about fertiling tubers. If you are mailing out to Lowrie soon, I'd just ask him. course, he probably just uses bugs. I have an idea about substrate. Utrics with dimorphic stolons probably grow in shallow water. Certain stolons will "root" or burrow into the substrate, which is close at hand (these be the bladderless ones?) "Root- ed" stolons would probably last longer (in the wet soil) should the water level drop. They would also anchor the plant and keep it from washing downstream (into the rapids!) Most of all, they would anchor the tall topheavy flower stalks. This may be why flowering requires substrate. Other bladworts have floats, and big macrorhiza types can probably support themselves, but delicate gibba and striata types especially need external support. MJC ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 90 14:44:12 mst XSubject: Re: stuff XXXVIXXX >I forgot, just what did (was it Rob) say about those (which?) counterfeet >African seed? Is coccicaulis suspect too? I bet it is, since I could >find no legit reference to its name. (I think you said you saw D. >admirabilis in some Kraut journal?) I asked Allen about these things, and he said that they were south africans, but not much else. I saw a note in a recent CPN (in the literature review section) mentioning the discovery of admirabilis. I looked in my Archived-Rob-Letters, and found this bit which I think is what you were looking for. In it, Rob mentioned a response that he got from Allen. Since Rob is probably overwhelmed with old mail at this point, I'll take the liberty to speak for him! >I asked him to elaborate on D. sp. '8' Borneo, to which he replied: > "Mine are ever so small so I can't report much to you...I'm always a >bit dubious about species A species 2 (B?) etc. There was a prick >(underlined, presumably for emphasis!) in Germany Harold Weiner who >used this scam to increase his CP list that he had for sale. The >printers were tricked of course. Most of the species were something >else - generally something common. The asshole who now lives in Kenya >did a lot of damage to honesty in our C.P. world." > Does he sound peed to Andromeda??! Also mentioned that D. admirabilis >and venusta were named by a guy from Germany, Paul Debbert. >I see you still have D. falconerii and petiolaris kunnuuurraa on your list? The petiolaris is doing great, but is sinking into dormancy (hence the fuel for all of my hot/cold dormancy questions). I'd be fooling myself if I thought that the falconeri had much of a chance at this point, but it is still kicking a bit. Neat on the Darlingtonia. My D. collinsae has flowered for me (medium-small pink flowers on a pubescent scape, like a small version of capensis). I have gotten seed which has germinated. I'm glad to say that the temporary greenhouse electrical failure over the weekend (due to a blown fuse) produced no tremendous traumas, although it did produce several irritating things. A few shrivelled flowers on P. ionantha, and also a fried U. juncea scape (very annoying). Fortunately, my prized D. regia and B. gigantea seedlings seemed unaffected. My D. binata multifida (extrema?) from Rob has started to regularly produce 4 branched leaves (i.e. dichotoma), and only after a year + of cultivation! (sheesh!) OK, Paul McMillan has started me on another (wild goose?) chase for a truly fine Drosophyllum soil medium. He suggests putting a bunch of big (i.e. golf ball---baseball sized) rocks in the medium, really piling them in the bottom 30cm of the pot. So, I picked up a bunch of volcanic rocks near a Utricularia site in Northern AZ this weekend. I wonder what will come of this idea? | | |~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | * * * | | ** * * *| "*" = rock |* * * * | " " = peat | * * * * *| |* * * ** * *| | * **** * ** |.......a 5g (20liter) pot |*** ****** **| |*************| |*************| ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [Banshee]) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 90 09:22:58 +1100 XSubject: Re: stuff XXXVIXXX >I asked him to elaborate on D. sp. '8' Borneo, to which he replied: > "Mine are ever so small so I can't report much to you...I'm always a >bit dubious about species A species 2 (B?) etc. There was a prick >(underlined, presumably for emphasis!) in Germany Harold Weiner who >used this scam to increase his CP list that he had for sale. The >printers were tricked of course. Most of the species were something >else - generally something common. The asshole who now lives in Kenya >did a lot of damage to honesty in our C.P. world." > Does he sound peed to Andromeda??! Also mentioned that D. admirabilis >and venusta were named by a guy from Germany, Paul Debbert. I have a Pinguicula which looks *exactly* the same as "P. species nova No. 4" on page 111 of Adrian Slack's "Insect-Eating Plants ", also named by Harald Weiner. It was sold to me as P. parvifolia, but doesn't match the description in the book. Any ideas on what it *really* is? The interesting thing about this plant is it flowers just as it goes dormant, which is quite the opposite of other Pinguiculas I've seen. As you can see in the photo, the "dormant" leaves are very thick and succulent-like, while the "active" leaves are rounded with a turned-up outer edge. My plants are at most an inch across. The flowers are pinkish with a dark throat (the opposite of P. parvifolia). >My D. binata multifida (extrema?) from Rob has started to regularly >produce 4 branched leaves (i.e. dichotoma), and only after a year + >of cultivation! (sheesh!) My plant is luck to produce *any* leaves. For some reason, the leaves inside the spiralled stem turn black before they get a chance to open. I've sprayed the plant with pyrethrum to kill any insects that might be attacking it (the stems sometimes look chewed), but to no avail. I now suspect that a root borer may be at work, but since the plant is reasonably healthy in other respects, I'm not sure this is the problem either. Any ideas? ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 90 19:01:14 mst XSubject: Re: stuff XXXVIXXX >I have a Pinguicula which looks *exactly* the same as "P. species nova >No. 4" description in the book. Any ideas on what it *really* is? I don't know, but I'll look at the pictures that you mentioned. >D. binata multifida >I'm not sure this is the problem either. Any ideas? I have a couple, and they are all about your cultivation. OK, first off, I go with Miguel de Tempe's suggestion and take a root cutting. Just cut out a root about two inches long, lay it horizontal in dead, milled Sphagnum, about 0.5---1.0 cm beneath the substrate. Keep moist and warm and wait about 2-3 months. Leaf cuttings have never worked for binata plants with me... As for the mother plant (which you have tried not to disturb too much with your surgery), where is it growing? I am guessing that you have it in a terrarium under lights. I have found that if this plant is in a terrarium, it is highly susseptible to getting a touch of mold on the forming leaf, which is then aborted. Inflorescences are particularly affected. The plant prefers more air circulation, or at least that is my impression. Maybe if you can, lower the humidity... Just some thoughts. Are you having success with any of the other binata plants? ################### From: mjc Date: Wed, 19 Dec 90 11:40:39 MST Subject: Diazanon Over the summer I had a very bad scale problem on my Sarracenias. Some of the scale spread out onto Drosera (binata, intermedia) and Utricularia species. I finally decided to resort to chemical warfare. By suggestion from Gordon Snelling, I mixed up some Diazanon. It is mixed in water and applied as a spray. I gave my Sarracenias about 7 applications over about two weeks. It has been roughly a month since the last treatment. The results are very good. The scale dried up and flaked off. I have seen no new scale on those plants that recieved the full treatment. (Some plants which got only a casual spraying or two are still suspect). Importantly, I saw no toxic effects on any of the plants! (Barry, that Drosophyllum which you though twas effected was not. It is still alive and well.) I did not treat the utric sp because it is so much easier to rip out some underground stolons and regrow the thing; discarding (or experimenting outdoors) with the infected portions. All the infected plants were going dormant at the time, and this may have sped the scale's dissapearence. It is yet to be seen what will come back from eggs or reinfection once growth resumes, but I am happy enuf with Diazanon to try it again if that happens. Diazanon appears to be a contact poison only; not a systemic If you don't hit the bugs they will probably live. I am also toying with an other way to remove scale from those troublesome Sarracenia rhizomes. If the plant is submerged in water for a week (preferably longer) this usually kills scale, and would probalby bother mealybugs too. Attempts at submerging entire plants had some bad effects (rotting of leaves), it looks like it is best to leave a few leaves sticking out of water. Someone wrote that S. psittacenia is best overwintered submerged (as in habitat) and this one probably would take full submergence. It looks like a good way to deal with those rhizomes, and it doesn't rrequire insecticides either. MJC ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 90 15:09:24 mst XSubject: Re: Diazanon Mike, I'll let you in on a little joke I find amusing. The aquatic Utric from the biological supply, that I am SO SURE is radiata is playing games with me. On parts of the stolon it is classic radiata. On other parts of the stem it is more like inflata. I think that we will just have to wait to see the flowers to be sure. I am interested in looking very carefully at your plants next time I can. The same for the collected plant from Conn. I would most likely think that it is radiata too (!) but it is possible that it is a juvenile form of inflata or geminiscapa. Now, you might be able to eliminate one or both of those by range restrictions, I forgot to look at that last night and I don't have that data with me. Incidentally, my U. striata is sending out some stolons which have leaves completely free of any bladders. Seems that most of the bladder formation might be underground now. I have scads of tiny aquatic bugs (food!) in my aquatic Utric buckets, too. I got them from a water sample I took near Flag. P.S. I'm gonna try some of that Diazonon... If I kill my plants, Mike....you will die. :-) ################### From: mjc Date: Thu, 20 Dec 90 12:39:12 MST Subject: diaz I guess I used "standard" dilution for the Diazanon. I had to share the spray bottle with the person doing cotton research, so I used the dilution she uses for the cotton. They really blast that cotton, so I bet it was standard or stronger. By all means test your dilution on a spare plant first! Barry, I think that there are no "range restrictions" on utricularia. Those aquatics can grow almost anywhere, it is just a matter of getting there. I bet if you threw some U. inflata in your Flagstaff lake, it would probably do quite well. So few good collections of Utrics have been made (and properly id'ed) we cannot really trust estimates of their distribution (in most cases). MJC ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 90 17:54:36 mst XSubject: Re: diaz >carry my plants through. R. dentata is another prob.: it has never >germinated for me despite giving the seed a seemingly requisite hot >water (60 C) treatment Ha! Another real scorcher, eh? Maybe you should try Byblis gigantea type fires... Mike, I sort of agree that range restrictions with Utricularia should not be trusted too much. There have been documented cases of shot ducks found to have been carrying small bits of Utricularia in their feathers, feet etc, and of course those small bits will make new plants in favorable circumstances. Uh, I see your point regarding putting U. inflata in a Flagstaff lake, but of course such a plant would not survive the winter as they are not hybernaculum-forming. I have read that a distinction between inflata and radiata is in the production of tubers. Apparently, if stranded in receding water, inflata will produce small "tubers" at the end of little leafless stolons. This is supposed to happen quite rapidly. This does not happen in radiata. ################### From: s882080@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (Paul Taylor [Falcon]) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 90 15:01:03 +1100 Subject: Old mail ... >DOES ANYONE FERTILIZE THEIR TUBEROUS DROSERA? WHAT DO THEY USE? I WOULD >LIKE TO KNOW BRAND NAME, AND DILUTION. ALSO, I WANT TO KNOW THE NUTRIENT >TYPE, I.E. 10-10-10 OR WHATEVER. ALSO, INFO LIKE ``ORCHID FERTILIZER'' >OR ``AFRICAN VIOLET'' WOULD BE GREAT. > Paul, you might know something about tuberous Drosera culture, or >perhaps someone in the VCPS does? My greenhouse is relatively bug free, >and so I'm afraid that my tuberous Drosera might be angry. I haven't had much experience with species other than those that grow locally (D. peltata, auriculata, whittakerii, macrantha sp. planchonii). I would be very wary of fertilizing CP's - feeding them insects would be much safer, and probably more beneficial. >Oh, *Paul*. I have a Question for you. Up in Northern Australia, in >the Darwin and Kununurra regions, what are the summer/winters like. >In particular, I know that for the tuberous Drosera range (West. Aust.), >you have hot, dry summers and cool, moist winters (or so I am told). >Up north, is the rainy season during the summer or the winter? I >want to know how I should treat my D. petiolaris `Kununurra.' >I figure that Australia is a small continent, so you should know all >the climatic regions like the back of your hand! Small? Australia is about the same size as the US ... Victoria (my home state) is around the same size as England, and Victoria is a SMALL state! The weather in Darwin according to my weather calendar is: JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC Max (*C) 31.7 31.4 31.8 32.6 31.9 30.5 30.3 31.2 32.4 33.0 33.1 32.5 Days >35*C 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 2 2 2 1 Min (*C) 24.7 24.6 24.4 23.9 22.1 19.9 19.3 20.6 23.1 25.0 25.3 25.2 Sun (hrs/day) 5.7 5.9 6.7 8.8 9.5 9.9 10.0 10.2 9.9 9.5 8.4 7.1 Rain (mm) 409 353 311 99 20 2 1 6 18 72 141 229 Raindays 21 20 19 9 2 0 1 1 2 6 12 16 Don't have data for Kununurra, but Port Hedland's weather is: JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC Max (*C) 36.3 36.2 36.7 35.0 30.2 27.4 26.8 28.9 32.2 34.4 36.1 36.6 Days >35*C 0 17 22 16 2 0 0 0 5 14 18 20 Min (*C) 25.4 25.3 24.3 21.1 17.1 13.9 12.0 13.0 15.2 17.9 21.1 23.8 Sun (hrs/day) 10.5 10.2 9.8 9.8 8.9 8.7 9.1 10.2 10.8 11.5 11.8 11.4 Rain (mm) 58 94 42 23 28 18 10 4 1 1 4 17 Raindays 5 7 4 2 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 2 Being in the northern part of Australia, the weather follows the tropical wet-dry cycle. To the south (Perth, Melbourne etc.) we have the usual four seasons, with generally hot summers and cool/cold winters. Snow doesn't occur except on the "high" alpine areas of Victoria and New South Wales (D. arturi country). >Lots of D. glanduligera coming up... I'm keeping the pot FAR from my >D. burmannii pot, to avoid contamination. Why doesn't anybody seem to >like this plant (glanduligera)? Poor little guy. D. glanduligera grows locally to me. It tends to grow in higher areas where it is a bit drier, so this might be an important growing tip. You may find that the plants will die before reaching maturity (according to Robert Gassin of the VCPS who has tried growing it before) ... If not, let me know your secret! ################### From: dunwich%SOLPL@as.arizona.edu (Barry Meyers-Rice) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 90 10:26:40 mst XSubject: Re: Old mail ... >I haven't had much experience with species other than those that grow locally >(D. peltata, auriculata, whittakerii, macrantha sp. planchonii). I would be Geez, all the luck! The closest verified CP to my front door is a bunch of lakeweed about 250 miles away! >D. glanduligera grows locally to me. It tends to grow in higher areas where i (again, you are lucky slime! :-)) >is a bit drier, so this might be an important growing tip. You may find that >the plants will die before reaching maturity (according to Robert Gassin of >the VCPS who has tried growing it before) ... If not, let me know your secret I have seen this young death too. I have gotten a few plants to seed once but it wasn't very successful. I am trying the drier approach now. I'll keep you posted. ################### From: s883351@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU (John Taylor [The Banshee]) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 90 12:29:42 +1100 Subject: Re: Drosera glanduligera The two locations near me where I have seen D. glanduligera growing in the wild have different habitats. The closer of the two (approx. 5km) grows in natural bushland, in the same reserve as the other Drosera, Utricularia etc. species I've mentioned before (CP hunters heaven! :-) Unlike the other Drosera species growing there, D. glanduligera grows on the tops of sand dunes. The ground is more or less bare (a few native shrubs as well as terrestrial orchids). It appears to be almost pure sand, and presumably very well drained. The sand was quite dry when I saw them (mid-late Spring), when the plants had just finished flowering. The other location (in a new botanic gardens approx. 15km away - the VCPS has a area allocated for growing CP's) also had sandy soil, but the D. glanduligera were growing on an exposed grassy bank. Again this area was higher than were other species (e.g. D. spathulata) were growing, suggesting that drainage is an important factor. The plants here were larger - this may be due to a higher level of humus etc. in the soil, but this is just a guess. I'm going to try growing some of my seed in *pure* horticultural sand, and some in a 2:1 sand/peat mixture (maybe more sand if it looks too peaty). I'll let you know the results as they come to hand ... -------- My D. adelae is growing bigger as predicted (lost original note so don't know who made the comment - sorry). The new leaves are around 5 inches long - quite a difference from Adrian Slack's 3 inch "limit" in cultivation! I may need a bigger terrarium at this rate (or put it in the less-ideal conditions of the glasshouse the terrarium is in). -------- Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!!!! ################### From: MAHARAJ@SSCvax.CIS.McMaster.CA Date: Sat, 29 Dec 90 17:51:00 EST Subject: Message from Rob Hey, guys, I decided to punch the lab time clock to respond to some of my email before my NEW MAIL FOLDER explodes. My email messages hasn't been the only thing growing, but the participants of our little electronic conference CP club. Welcome Paul, Paul and Earl. Sorry I couldn't extend greetings earlier, but I've been very busy with mixing, brewing and distilling my chemicals in the lab, literally like a MAD scientist these past few weeks. You see, I'm approaching my final year of Ph.D. studies here at McMaster in chemical synthesis (sub discipline of organic chemistry), so I'm trying to sprint now to the finish line, hopefully carring at least 2 or 3 papers to my name. In addition to the latest intensive research work out, throw in lab demontrating and marking of weekly reports, tutoring undergrads, courses, landlording, family commitments, back therapy, a WIFE and especially a runaway plant hobby, I sometimes think I need 48 hours a day to do all this juggling! Oh yeah, I'm also quite an avid squash player and alot of time is logged on the squash courts too. Anyways, on to the juicy stuff! My romance with CP is over 12 years old, starting off as love-at-first-sight with a Grade 10 biology class Venus' Fly Trap. Like a hapless insect, I was lured and trapped forever. I didn't have much time to pursue the relationship during my undergrad years at Mac but it really blossomed about 3 years ago once having started grad studies. Now I have close to 300 taxa, including forms, varieties etc, all grown in my house either under lights or by southern-facing windows. Needless to say, there are no bugs in our place! I don't really have favorites, but I've always enamoured the beauty and diversity of the sparkling jewels, the Drosera. Recently, I've been eyeing the pygmy Drosera, in part brought on by recent success at their cultivation and gemmae from our Copernicus contempory at U. at AZ, Barry. As I don't always get a chance to get at the terminal on a regular basis, I will get around to responding, normally in long winded messages. Guess you can call me a-one-shot-make-it-count marksman (as opposed to spraying with machine gun fire)! By the way, Earl, I've sent a copy of your intial message to the gang, so feel free to write to us and exchange views on CP, life, transendental meditation etc. I agree with you when you say that you're not having much success with you plants is because of not alloting for winter dormancy of the temperate and northern temperate species. Of course, the tropical ones you should not have probs, with. Let us know exactly what species you're having trouble with and what your growing conditions are: these factors will be more useful in pin-pointing problem areas. > Rob,...Have any hints on how to grow these? (Roridula ssp.) R. gorgonia has germinated under standard tropical Drosera germinating conditions (peat/spahag. mix, moist, with baggie, 18